08/January/2010

The Torch

http://i50.tinypic.com/2vs25ir.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/ejabyp.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/23wo3e0.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ailxy9.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2zf8y3a.jpg

08/January/2010

The Torch

http://i46.tinypic.com/261yo7c.jpg

08/January/2010

The Torch


http://i49.tinypic.com/jfj4gw.jpg

08/January/2010

The Torch


http://i49.tinypic.com/9hkp5f.jpg

08/January/2010

The Torch

http://i49.tinypic.com/v8cu42.jpg

08/January/2010

The Torch

http://i45.tinypic.com/v75fms.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/20jjv5i.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2l7x1y.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/r6wfol.jpg

Many thanks Imre, great photos as usual :cheers:

Princess Tower is catching up :bash:

THANK YOU IMRE!!!

wow those cranes are raised high!!

its must be topped out or very near?

wow those cranes are raised high!!

Looks like we will get the king size mars bar?

No-one here hiding behind an avatar or taking cheap shots at everyone.Only at HT.If you assumed they were aimed at you then you're mistaken bro.


This what I mean, anominity, you hide behind your name, did you fill in your public profile, No, so know one knows what a prick you are, would you like to face me, face to face, and carry on the argument, no you will remain an argumentive bastard, so fuck off, and dont wind me up son.

Alan

What was the outcome of the Addendum issue at the point for LPP investors? Did select revise it? Did anyone sign it? :cheers:

No-one here hiding behind an avatar or taking cheap shots at everyone.Only at HT.If you assumed they were aimed at you then you're mistaken bro.


This what I mean, anominity, you hide behind your name, did you fill in your public profile, No, so know one knows what a prick you are, would you like to face me, face to face, and carry on the argument, no you will remain an argumentive bastard, so fuck off, and dont wind me up son.

Alan

^^. :lol: Anominity? Is that one of those blobby sea thingies? I can't work out if this is tongue in cheek or if you're a bona fide thug. Either way it's pretty funny.

Oh, just realised, it must be tongue in cheek, nobody calls people "son" in real life.

If anyone picks on Alan, Imre, Mackie or HT, they will get zapped by my quantum vapourizer. :fart:

Thanks Imre :)

Sorry Mods....................lets talk Torch, seen how high those cranes are, Makie, was it you that knew someone in Jeba ali, that was making the big mars bar.

a.

Hi Alan

Totally respect you...we are new to this, hardly any properties. As you have 50 properties, we are always interested in your opinion, as one day we would like to be in the same position. Do you think the Torch was a mistake as an early investment for novices? we were about to purchase another flat in London 2 months ago, but decided not to, so the chain collapsed.

One thing for sure, you are not an absolute waster like Naz UK & Morrismarina et al, who talked shite and got me banned several times a few years ago when as it turned out everything I said was correct. You seem like a more honest investor. They were amusing nevertheless, I guess.

Did you concentrate only on Dubai?

Scoob

Some people have been warned over and over again not to engage in exchanges with other users, but can't help themselves and always ignore mod's warnings.

We can't tolerate forever, so be careful before we had enough and snap, pushing that long overdue button.

^^ Isn't that obvious?

http://i47.tinypic.com/16kcs1t.jpg

:)

'Do you think the Torch was a mistake as an early investment for novices'


Scoob, is that a serious question?

Who are you referring to?

I think he's referring to you young lady for your previous hurtful comments to Alan. :banana::cheers:

[QUOTE=podium;49813505]'Do you think the Torch was a mistake as an early investment for novices'



A bit like asking "is the POPE a catholic ??" :lol::lol:

:bleep: Let your imagination figure what I wanna say dude

I know you're joking because only adolescents call people dude.:lol::lol::lol::lol: Don't pick on me because I have a black belt tae kung fu do.:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

This thread is better than Eastenders, but it's not supposed to, even be like Eastenders. Moderators need to moderate!

[QUOTE=podium;49813505]'Do you think the Torch was a mistake as an early investment for novices'



A bit like asking "is the POPE a catholic ??" :lol::lol:

Or asking if the Chief Rabbi is a Jew!

[QUOTE=MANUTD;49824261]

Or asking if the Chief Rabbi is a Jew!

Or was Mohammed a Muslim. Or will Chelsea win the league.:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

This thread is better than Eastenders, but it's not supposed to, even be like Eastenders. Moderators need to moderate!

Sorry Teach :lol::lol:

Any way IMRE -I 'm hopefully over in Dubai in a few weeks fancuy a trip up
TT again ?

This thread is better than Eastenders, but it's not supposed to, even be like Eastenders. Moderators need to moderate!

Some people don't seams to notice the dark clouds gathering over their heads.

Sorry Teach :lol::lol:

Any way IMRE -I 'm hopefully over in Dubai in a few weeks fancuy a trip up
TT again ?

If they invite me I can go there but if not I cant :)

:cheers:

Originally Posted by bizzybonita
I thought you was luck down for good May 3rd, 2012 08:06 PM ... Thread's Playa

You sir (BIZZYBONITA) are appointed to moderate here NOT sit back and mess with, and BULLY members.



You have done this repeatedly with myself,despite my contribution to the D.Sc. threads and other since 2007..

My contribution to DSc is less because of your single handed ,sick minded bulling attitude imo!

take a look at your pointless tirade against me since the turn of the year below

I have repeatedly asked you and atlind, for your help for improvements to the Mess ,which your lack of "moderation" has led too in the first place on the DSc threads....


I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG TO DESERVE THIS !!!!!!


Profile Infraction
Reason: Random Post
July 3rd, 2011 06:06 PM by bizzybonita 3 / May 3rd, 2012 06:06 PM

Profile Infraction
Reason: Inappropriate Language
February 7th, 2011 09:28 PM by bizzybonita 1 / Expired

Profile Infraction
Reason: Posting random stuff/opening random threads
February 4th, 2011 02:21 PM by bizzybonita 2 / Never

Profile Warning
Reason: Wrong attitude
February 4th, 2011 02:17 PM by bizzybonita 0 / Expired

Bizzybonita your are one sick human being..

What was the outcome of the Addendum issue at the point for LPP investors? Did select revise it? Did anyone sign it? :cheers:

Mackie they didnt revise it and plenty signed it.

^^ Same will probably happen for the torch unless there is some strategic organziation and legal counsel in place soon!

I don't think mars bars can save us.

Mackie they didnt revise it and plenty signed it.

Thanks, will get on the case near to the time of handover :cheers:

I think the dark clouds turned to rain, thunder and the inevitable LIGHTENING.

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

Thanks, will get on the case near to the time of handover :cheers:

Mackie do it before -- the more time you have the better -- we gave up cos we wanted to rent out at TP and time run out

Manutd I arrive on the morning of 18th and leave morning of 24th feb for brazil, if you can make it great, and a trip up to the top of this big one would be a bonus. See what strings you can pull.

http://i48.tinypic.com/14mqiyu.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/2m6r2tk.jpg

13/January/2010

Princess Tower and The Torch

http://i45.tinypic.com/24ean2x.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/29glz88.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/282g8oy.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/nvtgro.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/2cqyb6s.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2qxotaw.jpg

Great, dome work has started !

Here is one more

http://i45.tinypic.com/2z7o2mo.jpg

Mackie do it before -- the more time you have the better -- we gave up cos we wanted to rent out at TP and time run out

The problem is we can't discuss something that does not exist. As they have not informed us of any change, we have nothing to discuss.

The LPP for the Torch is 15 years and we have signed an additional part of the contract already that covers the repayment. As far as I am concerned, I have already a contract and will not accept anything else. Not going to rent this one out so I am in no rush. :cheers:

Here is one more

http://i45.tinypic.com/2z7o2mo.jpg

Any idea why they say "Future Swimming Pool" etc?

As it is a construction plan, surely everything is in the future?

^^It won't be ready at handover..:dunno:

^^It won't be ready at handover..:dunno:

Well let's hope that some of the future residents with their future children don't miss the future children's swimming pool.

Select need to clarify this asap.

We know the pool is physically there already, just a matter of when it will be filled with water and operational :) It is usual for handover to happen before all facilities are fully ready, refer to the point, marinascape or the jewels for example.

Mackie do it before -- the more time you have the better -- we gave up cos we wanted to rent out at TP and time run out

No can do now mate -- too much work on - need to take leaf out of your book and take it easier from next year !

IMRE thanks for latest pictures TT is taking shape - still cant see me getting keys before March 2011 though ?

Any idea why they say "Future Swimming Pool" etc?

As it is a construction plan, surely everything is in the future?

I obtained this AFC drawing back in March.

We know the pool is physically there already, just a matter of when it will be filled with water and operational :) It is usual for handover to happen before all facilities are fully ready, refer to the point, marinascape or the jewels for example.

Jewels is a good example, pool was finished but it had a leak that took around 9 months to trace and repair at the third or fourth attempt.

finally they started constructing the roof structure... i am looking forward seeing how it will end up like. many thanks to all for updates.

15/January/2010

The Torch

http://i50.tinypic.com/r8i6q8.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2lkvh8h.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2819bt.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/1p6vex.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2gt19h1.jpg

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9185/dsc00567e.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/dsc00567e.jpg/)

he came close to the buildings, I have more but just having a fight with image shack........

Alan

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7492/dsc00585h.th.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/dsc00585h.jpg/)
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/6223/dsc00584v.th.jpg (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/dsc00584v.jpg/)
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3526/dsc00577qq.th.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/dsc00577qq.jpg/)
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7703/dsc00571j.th.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/dsc00571j.jpg/)
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/5669/dsc00570ek.th.jpg (http://img30.imageshack.us/i/dsc00570ek.jpg/)
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/7919/dsc00569.th.jpg (http://img532.imageshack.us/i/dsc00569.jpg/)
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6628/dsc00584x.th.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/dsc00584x.jpg/)
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9185/dsc00567e.th.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/dsc00567e.jpg/)
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/9087/dsc00565.th.jpg (http://img532.imageshack.us/i/dsc00565.jpg/)
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1486/dsc00566bq.th.jpg (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/dsc00566bq.jpg/)
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7247/dsc00568a.th.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/dsc00568a.jpg/)

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6628/dsc00584x.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/dsc00584x.jpg/)


Sorry still playing around with sizes, not sure which one to use..........

Anyone notice this apartment with its lights on? is uit the show one, I was very surprised to find that the bottom half looks complete.

a.

^^Amazing picture Agod!

I can't believe these "pilots" pulled a stunt like that when the winds are so unpredictable at low level due to the number of tower towers nearby.

You would get your license taken from you if you did that in the UK.

Great to see the roof feature is going ahead. :banana:

^^Amazing picture Agod!

I can't believe these "pilots" pulled a stunt like that when the winds are so unpredictable at low level due to the number of tower towers nearby.

You would get your license taken from you if you did that in the UK.

The pilot of the Blue Ballon, was a complete nutter, he first of all, let the balloon drop down to water level, by the Grosvenor bridge, thats when I got my camera, convinced he was in trouble, I mean he was a couple of feet off the water, had he hit it, it would have been a disaster, I saying to Joye "for christs sake fire it up" his mate was up and away, but this guy, then just floated through the buildings, he had no intentions of a safe take off, and the wind was whipping around, I was fully expecting a disaster.

Alan

^^Amazing picture Agod!

I can't believe these "pilots" pulled a stunt like that when the winds are so unpredictable at low level due to the number of tower towers nearby.

You would get your license taken from you if you did that in the UK.

THE BALOONING CHAMPIONSHIPS are on so theyre showing off to each other !! :lol::lol:

THE BALOONING CHAMPIONSHIPS are on so theyre showing off to each other !! :lol::lol:

Your so right !

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/8783/img1620y.jpg (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/img1620y.jpg/)

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/8649/img2033m.jpg (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/img2033m.jpg/)

Don't forget, although the windows are reflective, you will need some blinds or curtains for privacy at night. :D

http://i45.tinypic.com/x2w1mx.jpg

Don't forget, although the windows are reflective, you will need some blinds or curtains for privacy at night. :D

http://i45.tinypic.com/x2w1mx.jpg

TELESCOPES AT THE READY :lol:

I obtained this AFC drawing back in March.


"You have mail"

A.

^^. :lol: Anominity? Is that one of those blobby sea thingies? I can't work out if this is tongue in cheek or if you're a bona fide thug. Either way it's pretty funny.

Oh, just realised, it must be tongue in cheek, nobody calls people "son" in real life.

"You have Mail"

The Torch is finally alight...............about a dozen or so apartments on the lower floors were lit up tonight, (yes, like a Masonic Lodge, which you could never see inside,) very few windows and all secret society, I was beginning to believe that building was a Grand Lodge Temple, because of it's secret building going on, never being shown to the outside world, yet it rose to it's magnificent 84 floors in total darkness, and tonight it's secret is revealed..........DEWA must have connected it up, and Select must have put a shilling in the meter.

Al.

I doubt that DEWA already there,still unfinished building thats why I think they have just generators nothing else.

You may be right Imre, could just be a test off of generators but If they have completed a self contained block and are able to lock fast this block then I see no reason why DEWA would not connect it.

Could be that the test off temp power is to satisfy DEWA and generate the necessary paper work and certification to get the permanent power:dunno:

Power ON is scheduled for March 2010, this must be generator testing.

It's off thread, but two of the buildings on Park Island, are lit up from to to bottom, like a christmas tree, all the internal lights are on, perhaps they are load testing.

A

Hello - I am checking if this is working. Thank you. (I am new)

Hello - I am checking if this is working. Thank you. (I am new)



You are working find,give some details about yourself.

21/January/2010

Princess Tower and The Torch

http://i49.tinypic.com/ne6qmr.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/nqbxoi.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2lv23iu.jpg

22/January/2010

The Torch

http://i45.tinypic.com/dy4web.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/nna7no.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/2z7h3y9.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/dc68ud.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/2i064gh.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/ol2l4.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/16hj4mv.jpg

Thanks Imre. Roof feature taking shape. Did all investors get a spreadsheet from the Dubai office to fill in current contact information?

Yes we all did Mr Sohail.

Night view from Torch will be similar. (52nd floor)

http://i46.tinypic.com/53qlqa.jpg

Thanks Imre. Roof feature taking shape. Did all investors get a spreadsheet from the Dubai office to fill in current contact information?

I have not received anything yet.
is there a contact name on it?

Courtesy of playmaker

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4514/dubai14.jpg

With the fog it looks like a city straight out of Starwars! :)

Thanks Imre. Roof feature taking shape. Did all investors get a spreadsheet from the Dubai office to fill in current contact information?

No can u pop it on here ?

I got the letter and it came from reception@dubaiselect.com
If you want to PM me your e mail address I can forward it to you.

As the torch will be over 3 years late, is it possible to get a payment break until handover on the LPP plan under law 9 or the new laws for property refunds http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100124/BUSINESS/701249867/1133

Property investors in Dubai will be eligible for refunds or replacement property if they fall victim to unscrupulous or failing developers.

Developers will face new financial penalties if the buildings they promise are not delivered on time, or to agreed specifications.

No can u pop it on here ?

It is a spreadsheet, PM you email address me and I can send you a copy or request one from reception@dubaiselect.com but don't hold your breath while waiting for a reply!

I have not received anything yet.
is there a contact name on it?

^^ I'll email it to you, I have your address.

Night view from Torch will be similar. (52nd floor)

http://i46.tinypic.com/53qlqa.jpg

^^ Love night time Cityscapes, beats a night time Sea View :)

http://i45.tinypic.com/ea3z1h.jpg

29/January/2010

The Torch

http://i47.tinypic.com/mlp1jt.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/33aap2x.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/akbwo4.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/293y175.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/2cg279e.jpg

Originally Posted by vijay@stavanger
Please lookup Dubai Real Estate Recovery Scheme web address: www.rerauk.com for dealing with the new breed of thugs operating in Dubai called Developers. RERAUK are offering their services on a 'NO WIN NO FEE' basis.

Vijay


Vijay -- that's a load of old bollocks - these guys should be hung out to dry for fraud for using RERA name in UK

Read the small print mate they are "consolidation salesmen" the latest
"legal con" in DUBAI is being exported to UK
- I have written to my business contact at MAN U -they are using OLD TRAFFORD as selling space UTD have enough trouble financially without getting involved with that scam !


By the way this RERA stands for REAL ESTATE RECOVERY AGENCY

This is the key bit on their "blurb" I just copied off their site
51. Where would you like to Transfer your Investment? (Please select one)

In Dubai - with a RERA Approved Project and Escrow Account
In USA - with Ready to Move in Completed 3 bedroom Villas
In Europe - with a Completed Property

1. E-Mail, to RERA UK Claim Assessments at claimassessments@rerauk.com
2. or Post, RERA UK, Devonshire House, Manor Way, Borehamwood, Herts WD6 1QQ
3. or Fax, 0845 301 6732

If you have any questions then call us on 0845 130 3393.

BEWARE BE VERY BEWARE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scary stuff indeed! There is always someone there ready and waiting to capitalise on your misery dressing it up as a way out of your problem. It's the way of our World!

I second ManUtd's sentiment - BEWARE!

http://i48.tinypic.com/jj8js2.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/akbwo4.jpg

Still wonder what will be on the top floor, does not look like it will be a penthouse as there should only be windows in the middle part.

Probably a Mechanical floor, A/C units, Sprinkler tank, lifts, perhaps.

TB will know.

AL

Still wonder what will be on the top floor, does not look like it will be a penthouse as there should only be windows in the middle part.

Observatory :dunno:

Looks to me like they have definately put an extra floor of penthouses. So 2 floors of duplex penthouses making 4 in total. Different from all the renders i've seen where there was only 1 level of duplex P/H.

Anyone know any more on this ?

Looks to me like they have definately put an extra floor of penthouses. So 2 floors of duplex penthouses making 4 in total. Different from all the renders i've seen where there was only 1 level of duplex P/H.

Anyone know any more on this ?

Whatever this floor is it has also got a balcony.

A revolving restaurant?? Would be nice though

No, its obviously a Mars Bar packing station...............

Originally Posted by vijay@stavanger
Please lookup Dubai Real Estate Recovery Scheme web address: www.rerauk.com for dealing with the new breed of thugs operating in Dubai called Developers. RERAUK are offering their services on a 'NO WIN NO FEE' basis.

Vijay


Vijay -- that's a load of old bollocks - these guys should be hung out to dry for fraud for using RERA name in UK

Read the small print mate they are "consolidation salesmen" the latest
"legal con" in DUBAI is being exported to UK
- I have written to my business contact at MAN U -they are using OLD TRAFFORD as selling space UTD have enough trouble financially without getting involved with that scam !


By the way this RERA stands for REAL ESTATE RECOVERY AGENCY

This is the key bit on their "blurb" I just copied off their site
51. Where would you like to Transfer your Investment? (Please select one)

In Dubai - with a RERA Approved Project and Escrow Account
In USA - with Ready to Move in Completed 3 bedroom Villas
In Europe - with a Completed Property

1. E-Mail, to RERA UK Claim Assessments at claimassessments@rerauk.com
2. or Post, RERA UK, Devonshire House, Manor Way, Borehamwood, Herts WD6 1QQ
3. or Fax, 0845 301 6732

If you have any questions then call us on 0845 130 3393.

BEWARE BE VERY BEWARE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just to add to ManUtd's warning, this so called company was created about 6 months ago according to the domain registry and is located in London;

domain: RERAUK.COM
created: 03-Jun-2009
last-changed: 21-Dec-2009
registration-expiration: 03-Jun-2010

nserver: ns67.1and1.co.uk
nserver: ns68.1and1.co.uk

status: CLIENT-TRANSFER-PROHIBITED

registrant-firstname: Shah
registrant-lastname: Mirza
registrant-organization: Capital One Media Ltd
registrant-street1: 2-10 Carlisle Road
registrant-street2: Unit D Colindale Business Park
registrant-pcode: NW9 0HN
registrant-state: ENF
registrant-city: London
registrant-ccode: GB
registrant-phone: +44.8453015491
registrant-email: SHAHSVP@HOTMAIL.CO.UK

Further investigation on Companies House shows this to be a brand new company, formed to capitalize no doubt on the problems in the property world, in particular Dubai;

Name & Registered Office:
CAPITAL ONE MEDIA LIMITED
UNIT D COLINDALE BUSINESS PARK
2-10 CARLISLE ROAD
LONDON
UNITED KINGDOM
NW9 0HN
Company No. 06923830

Date of Incorporation: 03/06/2009

May be someone would care to drop them a visit?

REITERATING MANUTD's MESSAGE - BE ULTRA ULTRA AWARE OF THESE SCAMSTERS!!

Regards

The Torch

Bunch of shisters.

Just to add to ManUtd's warning, this so called company was created about 6 months ago according to the domain registry and is located in London;

domain: RERAUK.COM
created: 03-Jun-2009
last-changed: 21-Dec-2009
registration-expiration: 03-Jun-2010

nserver: ns67.1and1.co.uk
nserver: ns68.1and1.co.uk

status: CLIENT-TRANSFER-PROHIBITED

registrant-firstname: Shah
registrant-lastname: Mirza
registrant-organization: Capital One Media Ltd
registrant-street1: 2-10 Carlisle Road
registrant-street2: Unit D Colindale Business Park
registrant-pcode: NW9 0HN
registrant-state: ENF
registrant-city: London
registrant-ccode: GB
registrant-phone: +44.8453015491
registrant-email: SHAHSVP@HOTMAIL.CO.UK

Further investigation on Companies House shows this to be a brand new company, formed to capitalize no doubt on the problems in the property world, in particular Dubai;

Name & Registered Office:
CAPITAL ONE MEDIA LIMITED
UNIT D COLINDALE BUSINESS PARK
2-10 CARLISLE ROAD
LONDON
UNITED KINGDOM
NW9 0HN
Company No. 06923830

Date of Incorporation: 03/06/2009

May be someone would care to drop them a visit?

REITERATING MANUTD's MESSAGE - BE ULTRA ULTRA AWARE OF THESE SCAMSTERS!!

Regards

The Torch

Also owns http://rdholdings.com and 11 other domains , don't you just love the internet?

Rera warns against Dubai and Ajman property swaps

United Arab Emirates: Sunday, January 17 - 2010 at 10:41
Marwan bin Ghalita, CEO of the Dubai Real Estate Regulatory Authority, has said that property investors need to be cautious of initiatives and schemes offering to swap properties between Dubai or Ajman and the US, Emirates Business has reported. The warning follows a recent advert in a local newspaper by a US-based investment firm, which said it would exchange finished Dubai or Ajman properties with "completed freehold" properties in the US. "We have not received any request for such approvals from firms offering to exchange properties in Dubai for properties in the US," bin Ghalita told the newspaper.

Same mob?

I'm sure they shouldn't be using the name Capital One. Perhaps a large credit card organisation would be unhappy about this.....

--------------------

Also owns http://rdholdings.com and 11 other domains , don't you just love the internet?

It's certainly useful to get under the skin of these types of operations. There is no hiding from big brother 'i'.

The Torch

I'm sure they shouldn't be using the name Capital One. Perhaps a large credit card organisation would be unhappy about this.....

Capital One Bank probably have a whole team of lawyers trying to claim "too like" issues against many companies. Here's the current list on Companies House that they are probably investigating;

05813675 D CAPITAL ONE LIMITED Dissolved
06764538 CAPITAL 1 ACCIDENT MANAGEMENT LIMITED
05956897 CAPITAL ONE CHAUFFEUR SERVICES LIMITED
FC020557 C CAPITAL ONE COMMUNICATIONS, INC. Company Removed
03503052 CAPITAL ONE CONTRACTS LIMITED
03808862 D CAPITAL ONE DEVELOPMENTS LIMITED Dissolved
05467502 CAPITAL 18 VESTRY LIMITED
FC020250 C CAPITAL ONE FINANCE COMPANY Company Removed
04138561 CAPITAL ONE FUNDING LIMITED
03861423 CAPITAL ONE HOLDINGS LIMITED
02545354 CAPITAL ONE HOMEOWNER LOANS LIMITED
06426899 CAPITAL 1 HOMES LIMITED
05097322 CAPITAL ONE INTERNATIONAL HOLDINGS LIMITED
04138518 CAPITAL ONE INVESTMENTS LIMITED
04927380 CAPITAL ONE LOANS (UK) LIMITED
03569029 CAPITAL ONE MARKETING SERVICES LTD.
06923830 CAPITAL ONE MEDIA LIMITED :lol:
03671261 CAPITAL ONE MORTGAGES LIMITED
00392902 CAPITAL 1945 LIMITED
FC025701 CAPITAL ONE OVERSEAS LIMITED
BR007978 CAPITAL ONE OVERSEAS LIMITED
06331197 CAPITAL ONE PROPERTIES LIMITED
05299445 CAPITAL ONE SECURITIES LIMITED
BR003548 CAPITAL ONE SERVICES, INC.
FC019353 CAPITAL ONE SERVICES, LLC.
06724632 CAPITAL ONE SOLUTIONS LIMITED


It's probably like painting a bridge - never ending.

The Torch

Capital One Bank probably have a whole team of lawyers trying to claim "too like" issues against many companies. Here's the current list on Companies House that they are probably investigating;

05813675 D CAPITAL ONE LIMITED Dissolved
06764538 CAPITAL 1 ACCIDENT MANAGEMENT LIMITED
05956897 CAPITAL ONE CHAUFFEUR SERVICES LIMITED
FC020557 C CAPITAL ONE COMMUNICATIONS, INC. Company Removed
03503052 CAPITAL ONE CONTRACTS LIMITED
03808862 D CAPITAL ONE DEVELOPMENTS LIMITED Dissolved
05467502 CAPITAL 18 VESTRY LIMITED
FC020250 C CAPITAL ONE FINANCE COMPANY Company Removed
04138561 CAPITAL ONE FUNDING LIMITED
03861423 CAPITAL ONE HOLDINGS LIMITED
02545354 CAPITAL ONE HOMEOWNER LOANS LIMITED
06426899 CAPITAL 1 HOMES LIMITED
05097322 CAPITAL ONE INTERNATIONAL HOLDINGS LIMITED
04138518 CAPITAL ONE INVESTMENTS LIMITED
04927380 CAPITAL ONE LOANS (UK) LIMITED
03569029 CAPITAL ONE MARKETING SERVICES LTD.
06923830 CAPITAL ONE MEDIA LIMITED :lol:
03671261 CAPITAL ONE MORTGAGES LIMITED
00392902 CAPITAL 1945 LIMITED
FC025701 CAPITAL ONE OVERSEAS LIMITED
BR007978 CAPITAL ONE OVERSEAS LIMITED
06331197 CAPITAL ONE PROPERTIES LIMITED
05299445 CAPITAL ONE SECURITIES LIMITED
BR003548 CAPITAL ONE SERVICES, INC.
FC019353 CAPITAL ONE SERVICES, LLC.
06724632 CAPITAL ONE SOLUTIONS LIMITED


It's probably like painting a bridge - never ending.

The Torch

end

Oh my god! However, there's no doubt that a large selection of those Capital One names listed will have the Capital One lawyers calling

Hey my gosh! posts being removed left right and..(a private post from -anonymous- user select_property as follows...)

Select_Property
Registered User


Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 35 False statement

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please remove your false statement in post 11342 on this page immediately.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...14178&page=568

This post has been reported to the moderators of this forum as breaking the 'house rules'

^^ I think it is a bot. Meaning a software that runs automated tasks over the internet. Basically an automated troll/spammer.

05/February/2010

The Torch

http://i45.tinypic.com/2n72grm.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/9qya91.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/wb2s8w.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/r94a6p.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/29lee54.jpg

Thank you once again,Imre.

There have also been some lovely shots of the "Torch"
on Sky,the Golf followers must have seen them.

thank u imre for the gr8 pics!

Thanks for the update Imre. :applause:

It's rare these days to see a man who is prepared to give so much, to so many and not expect anything in return. Your an outstanding Gent.

I'm over in a few months and hope for the opportunity to show my gratitude. :cheers:

I'm going to have a wild stab at some predictions.

Top out - by end of March.
Cladding 100% - by end of May.
Orientation and Handover of lower floors commence - September.

Would be grateful to hear the views of the seasoned Pro's on SSC.

Thanks Imre!

Does anybody know how far they are up with installation of kitchens & bathrooms?

Thanks for the update Imre. :applause:

It's rare these days to see a man who is prepared to give so much, to so many and not expect anything in return. Your an outstanding Gent.

I'm over in a few months and hope for the opportunity to show my gratitude. :cheers:

I'm going to have a wild stab at some predictions.

Top out - by end of March.
Cladding 100% - by end of May.
Orientation and Handover of lower floors commence - September.

Would be grateful to hear the views of the seasoned Pro's on SSC.

HT - would you say then that realistically for relatively hassle free renting (assuming there are willing tenants!) the building ought to be substantially complete and snagged by say third quarter 2011?

I think you'd ventured an earlier opinion on allowing a considerable period for snagging and proper completion before renting?

I appreciate that some might be in a hurry to get the tenant in the bag, and the rent rolling in as soon as possible after getting the keys - but I can see this might also be a bit fraught with grief for the Owner?

I tend to agree with HT's dates for earliest possible handover dates. (Mackie get your £100 gift ready)

For renting I think Jan 2011 may be possible for long term rental (perhaps not on the highest floors). If you are planning on vacation rentals with quaility furnished apartments you may need to wait until mid 2011 until all building snagging is done. Contract allows 1 year after handover to get all done. Point will take about 1 year after handover to be in good shape.

I must say the top is starting to look good, if they go on and install the led light feature it will be an eyecatcher for sure.

On progress, it is difficult to estimate what percentage of the internal work is done as this is never disclosed in the updates. I am looking at the outside of the building and can see the construction lift does not visit the bottom third section, so this must be as good as done. The next third has landing platforms, so it is reasonable to assume that work is still going on in this section. I expect it will be well advanced though, maybe 75% done, but lets keep an eye open for the platforms being taken away and the holes in the cladding getting filled in. This is as good an indicator as any until the permanent lifts are comissioned.

The top third is a different animal altogether and I think that the good cladding progress is hiding apartments that have barely started. This top third is a considerable sized building in itself and obviously is not structuraly complete but not far off. Rough guess at 180 apartments in the top third which are overall 20% done. Gents I still think you need to allow another year for this to be complete enough to start handovers. My current guess is handovers will commence April 2011.

Well, me and my dearest differ on opinion.

She thinks we'll have our 50th floor apartment ready to roll rent by the end of the year.

Me, I can't see how this is possible, though my windows are in now!

Topping out : Say 2-3 months.

Internals done to the top, car parking completed, shop levels, pool, gym etc and the site cleared out, plus inspection and sign off, plus utilities connections etc: another 6 months:

First orientation of completed "clean" building: Oct'10 at say 5 floors a week (now that would be pushing it. Would be like the M25 inside!).

50th floor orientation 10 weeks later: end of 2010

Snagging lagging by 30 floors by then, creeping up at 3 floors a week: 10 further weeks and nearing March 2011.

Final handover around April May at floor 50, but that would require major organisation efficiency by SP.

My guesstimate remains at July '11 at floor level 50.

The Torch

Hand over for this tower i would say mid 2012 !
Assuming all cladding and toped out by march this year !

I tend to agree with HT's dates for earliest possible handover dates. (Mackie get your £100 gift ready)

For renting I think Jan 2011 may be possible for long term rental (perhaps not on the highest floors). If you are planning on vacation rentals with quaility furnished apartments you may need to wait until mid 2011 until all building snagging is done. Contract allows 1 year after handover to get all done. Point will take about 1 year after handover to be in good shape.

When you ready Steve

http://i45.tinypic.com/2sboq2p.jpg

^^ :lol: Not yet, I am still sticking to 2010 matey for first handover. :cheers:

Otherwise I think I may be homeless by 2011 with all these LPP payments!

http://i45.tinypic.com/357o70x.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/2zpp1d3.jpg

Hand over for this tower i would say mid 2012 !
Assuming all cladding and toped out by march this year !

On what basis are you quoting almost a year beyond even the most pessimistic estimates?

On what basis are you quoting almost a year beyond even the most pessimistic estimates?

"The Point" took a year from topping out to completion so assume more for the size and floors maybe early 2012 maybe ?:)

^^Stop using logic! I fall into that trap all the time:lol:

Everytime I see the Torch in darkness it makes me shake my head thinking about the mounting delays.

Steves pic above shows Infinity still ticking over and even a great action shot of the crane slewing. She's catching up every night while the Torch sleeps.

Everytime I see the Torch in darkness it makes me shake my head thinking about the mounting delays.

Steves pic above shows Infinity still ticking over and even a great action shot of the crane slewing. She's catching up every night while the Torch sleeps.

I guess Infinity has a lot of catching up to do as both projects were launched at around the same time. The Torch is weeks away from topping out and infinity is only just half built. :cheers:

The Torches blushes are being saved by the accident, or was it an accident. Anyone get an alibi from Giles Beswick?:lol:

Without that accident, Infinity would be handing over right now, having launched atleast 6 months after Torch:colgate:

http://i46.tinypic.com/21ltpwz.png

http://i46.tinypic.com/21ltpwz.png
^^

The reason you can't see any lights on now is because they have now fitted the blinds up to floor 80.

The Torch

Here's my best guess:

Top-out: May 2010
Windows in, building sealed - July 2010
Interiors completed, services in and tested - July 2011
Handovers begin - September 2011
Handovers completed - February 2012

My guess is late 2012...it is to Select's advantage to capitalise on distressed sellers, the more the merrier. As with RERA U.K.

Why else would it all be going so slow.

^^ I am sure they would prefer all the final payments at handover now and to secure cashflow of LPP payments.

2012 is ridiculous estimate for handover. Expect handover to begin this year and Torch should be rentable by spring 2011.

Why else would it all be going so slow.

Scooby, I dont think they are going slow at all, it looks as though, the internals are finished up to the 60th, and the Mars roof feature is getting bigger on a dailt basis.

A

My guess is Infinity will be topped out in a couple of months and rented a week later and all the posts here will revert back to doom and gloom within a week or so..

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4035/4338436472_ffa625de36_o.jpg

Bargains up for grabs.....

http://www.selectproperty.com/invest/dubai/the-torch/

^^ That is kind of depressing, we have had all that money tied up since 05 and now they are reselling at original pre-launch price. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

At least you would get back the money what you have invested.

This is very good in Dubai and UAE now , lots of people lost or will loose everything.

^^ That is kind of depressing, we have had all that money tied up since 05 and now they are reselling at original pre-launch price. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I didn't realise this project started in 05 until I saw the website. What year did construction actually start Steve?

^^ Launched 1st quarter of 2005, we were all told end of 2007 for handover at that point. Construction started around 2nd quarter of 2006.

It will be over 3 years late. Select claim this 3 year delay is totally due to force majeure (as does every other developer I have ever had a contract with when they are late, contracts are worthless as toilet paper :toilet: in my experience)

Updated site pics by Imre - 21/07/06

http://i5.tinypic.com/20kc1p1.jpg

http://i5.tinypic.com/20kc211.jpg

It will be over 3 years late. Select claim this 3 year delay is totally due to force majeure (as does every other developer I have ever had a contract with when they are late, contracts are worthless as toilet paper :toilet: in my experience)[/QUOTE]

Steve, what type of force maj were you quoted by SG. I mean, there are delays and there are delays! How did they possibly get out of paying compensation or was compensation not in the original contracts?

If anyone has a very high 07 1 bed appt they want out off send me a pm.

^^ That is kind of depressing, we have had all that money tied up since 05 and now they are reselling at original pre-launch price. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I feel sorry for the people who have to sell at these prices - they're paying the price for the project being delayed. If the units were completed, I believe they'd sell at a premium of perhaps 20 percent on pre-release prices, maybe a little more.

It will be over 3 years late. Select claim this 3 year delay is totally due to force majeure (as does every other developer I have ever had a contract with when they are late, contracts are worthless as toilet paper :toilet: in my experience)

Steve, what type of force maj were you quoted by SG. I mean, there are delays and there are delays! How did they possibly get out of paying compensation or was compensation not in the original contracts?[/QUOTE]

The contract defines force majeure not only as it is generally understood (an 'act of God' or similar that is both unforeseen and beyond the control of the developer, that necessarily results in an unavoidable delay) but also as 'any occurrence that results in the developer granting an extension to a contractor', or similar. Many of the delays relate to the master contractor being changed and the design and configuration of the project being revised twice. Any reasonable person would give contractors extensions under those circumstances, therefore the developer has cited force majeure.

In hindsight, I wish I'd challenged the wording of this and other aspects of the contract at the outset and either got them changed or walked away. But I didn't, so to some degree, I'm stuck with it.

At least you would get back the money what you have invested.

This is very good in Dubai and UAE now , lots of people lost or will loose everything.

IMRE is very correct. I have lost everything, the whole lot, in Ajman, with the build not happening and developer refusing to refund a penny. I am thankful this is hopefully going to complete.

The Torch

^^ That is kind of depressing, we have had all that money tied up since 05 and now they are reselling at original pre-launch price. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It's done much better than most pensions over the same period.

Think about tomorrow.The past is history and cannot be mended!!!

Think about tomorrow.The past is history and cannot be mended!!!

That's true. On the positive side, The Torch will be a notable landmark when completed and I believe apartments will rent for at least 10% of OP, after service charges or be capable of being sold in even the current market for a premium.

IMRE is very correct. I have lost everything, the whole lot, in Ajman, with the build not happening and developer refusing to refund a penny. I am thankful this is hopefully going to complete.

The Torch

I am the same, lost 50% of the price of a build in Dubai and I can't see ever getting my money back. It's shocking to think how many people have actually lost money on projects which have been scrapped.

It might be interesting to have a thread just to find out the actual scale of the amount of people who have lost money on builds not going ahead.

I am the same, lost 50% of the price of a build in Dubai and I can't see ever getting my money back. It's shocking to think how many people have actually lost money on projects which have been scrapped.

It might be interesting to have a thread just to find out the actual scale of the amount of people who have lost money on builds not going ahead.

I agree, this would be interesting to see. Especially because Sheikh Mo once gave an interview to a newspaper, I have a copy of the web version somewhere, in which he said 'No-one will ever lose money on property in Dubai'. I wonder if he plans to recompense people personally?

I agree, this would be interesting to see. Especially because Sheikh Mo once gave an interview to a newspaper, I have a copy of the web version somewhere, in which he said 'No-one will ever lose money on property in Dubai'. I wonder if he plans to recompense people personally?

Now he would say it: Thank you for your money, good bye ! :)

October 26, 2003

Dubai to guarantee capital of investors, says al-Maktoum

DUBAI, Oct 25: The government of Dubai will guarantee capital invested in projects in the emirate, the emirate’s crown prince Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum said in an interview published on Saturday.

Dubai will not allow any (investor) to lose ... If anyone’s investment in Dubai regresses, and if the capital regresses, then the government of Dubai will give him, and it will buy what he has invested in, al-Maktoum said in Al-Bayan newspaper.

Now he would say it: Thank you for your money, good bye ! :)

Anybody know a good lawyer who would want to take on the Maktoums!!:ohno:

It will be over 3 years late. Select claim this 3 year delay is totally due to force majeure (as does every other developer I have ever had a contract with when they are late, contracts are worthless as toilet paper :toilet: in my experience)

Steve, what type of force maj were you quoted by SG. I mean, there are delays and there are delays! How did they possibly get out of paying compensation or was compensation not in the original contracts?[/QUOTE]




Quoted in mail from Paul Brady,"We would like to remind you that,despite no legal obligation,we have offered a credit of interest at LIBOR plus 1% on payments which have been made by you on or before 30 June 2009,for the period 30 June 2009 to 31 January 2010."

This period is now over,has anyone heard of an extension of this offer or other.

That's true. On the positive side, The Torch will be a notable landmark when completed and I believe apartments will rent for at least 10% of OP, after service charges or be capable of being sold in even the current market for a premium.

Not a chance, 6% to 7% net if you are lucky :cheers:

Not a chance, 6% to 7% net if you are lucky :cheers:

I reckon a 2-bed bought for 1.2m will rent for 135k. Knock off service charges and you're at 10%.

I reckon a 2-bed bought for 1.2m will rent for 135k. Knock off service charges and you're at 10%.

As Mackie said, not a chance of getting 135k for a 2 bed in the Torch. Lets get real now guys the market is moving downwards. Mag tower will be handing over before Torch so watch the prices advertised there.

My expectation for Torch rentals starting Summer 2011 earliest would be 1 bed 65k, 2 bed 85k. If you get more it will be a bonus but stop deluding yourselves with this 135k rubbish.

As Mackie said, not a chance of getting 135k for a 2 bed in the Torch. Lets get real now guys the market is moving downwards. Mag tower will be handing over before Torch so watch the prices advertised there.

My expectation for Torch rentals starting Summer 2011 earliest would be 1 bed 65k, 2 bed 85k. If you get more it will be a bonus but stop deluding yourselves with this 135k rubbish.

2 beds unfurnised in region of 110k is what I have been quoted by an agent who let out alot of Point properties. They also said demand for Marina was strong. I think your figure of 85k for 2 bed is way too low!

My thoughts are that there are many people struggling on the LPP who may even accept 85k as it will cover the payments they are struggling to make and give them some breathing space at least for the first year or so. This will no dobut have an effect on the rents for the rest of the building. The LPP plans at the Point were only 5 years but would be interesting to know if rent demands for LPP vs SPP were much different.

to maximise rental returns we are thinking of fitting a better quality kitchen and bathrooms once the property is delivered. in the past when we did that in some of our other properties it allowed us to ask for a premium and it was never difficult to find tenants.

any thought if the above applies to dubai current market?

As Mackie said, not a chance of getting 135k for a 2 bed in the Torch. Lets get real now guys the market is moving downwards. Mag tower will be handing over before Torch so watch the prices advertised there.

My expectation for Torch rentals starting Summer 2011 earliest would be 1 bed 65k, 2 bed 85k. If you get more it will be a bonus but stop deluding yourselves with this 135k rubbish.

I can't predict how the market will develop over the next year or so, except to say that oil prices are likely to stay at their current level or grow, which tends to help UAE, but right now I'd say 85k will barely rent a mid-market 2-bed. Point owners got 85k-95k for their 2-bed units. SG has promised the quality will be better on The Torch and the price I'm quoting, based on an OP of 1.2m, is for a high floor with direct water views.

I'm on the mailing lists of quite a few agents and the trend I'm seeing in asking prices for rentals in the Marina and JLT is upward - and they do seem to be turning them over.

85k is riddiculous no way I would accept that for a good sized 2 bed with fantastic full marina view in the phase 1 area. It would not even cover the 15 year LPP payments let alone maintenance. Perhaps 85k could be the low end price in the cheap end of the marina for something like a marina diamond etc. once all the new units start to come on the market. Torch with marina views will also command a premium over any mag 218 units.

75K to 80k for 1 BR, 95K to 105K for 2BRs and 135K to 170K for 3BRs based on real experience at different projects and trend from 2008 to 2009 and now what the tenants are prepared to pay to renew (my own real data). Some cases are exempt form this but they are rare (an example, a bank wanted to have an apartment for 3 years and were willing to pay a bit extra to secure it). We are talking middle of the road developments, which the Torch is, I don't like that fact but its unfortunately. Hope this help:cheers:

I am also expecting to see high maintenance charges here (AED15 to 20 per sqft). I am paying 6 to 13 /sqft elsewhere :dunno:

And I expect this to go down by further 10% by 2011 at least. It is always wise to plan for worse case and anything else is a bonus :cheers:

to maximise rental returns we are thinking of fitting a better quality kitchen and bathrooms once the property is delivered. in the past when we did that in some of our other properties it allowed us to ask for a premium and it was never difficult to find tenants.

any thought if the above applies to dubai current market?

The gain will be very minimal unless you are planning for short term rental. In that case, it makes a big difference. I did not hold this view previously but I now know better :)

Judging what rentals are achievable in the Torch when it's ready to be occupied in a year from now (ish), is a tricky one.

I think the easiest method is to compare what Marina Heights units ask and achieve in the current market.

Looking here - http://www.gnads4u.com/search.html?t=properties&keywords=marina+heights&pub=D&ct=RXC-PR-TL&pn=1

3 bed range is 120k - 200k average 160k
2 bed range is 100k - 130k average 115k
1 bed range is 85k - 90k average 87.5k

Those are advertised prices in today market. I would imagine that tenants will negotiate with either flexible payment terms (number of cheques) or additional packages (du, showtime, broadband etc).

I have a friend who owns an MH 3 bed on a high floor with marina views and renewed his tenant at 180k 4 cheques in November 2009.

I think MH is a good example of what the Torch would achieve as it is the same location, same views and I imagine quality wont be too dissimilar (average).

Of course what must be taken into account is that the Marina will probably deliver around 5,000 units over the next 12 months, around 2,300 of them being in the tallest block (658 in the Torch).

My feeling is that rents will come down in general terms but some units with USP's will hold firm. Much like the Marina has compared to most of Dubai over the last year or so.

Bottom line is there is infinitely more supply available and becoming available in the next 2-3 years so unless Dubai can attract around 1 million new residents earning in the Dh 250k - Dh500k pa region rents are going down or for prime units, flat at best.

The worst problem is what will happen to service charges over the next 2-3 years. As the off plan real estate industry is now dead. Another ponzi scheme must be built to replace it. This will be called service and maintenance companies. They are not regulated and charges are not capped (unlike rents). The legal system offers no protection against it and developers are already seeing service charges as the next cash cow.

The king is dead. Long live the king.

Don't forget if you start renting out too low (below the market price) in desparation you will be stuck with only being allowed small rent increases for the next years unless you evict your tenant. So when the oversupply glut is finally absorbed and there is no more supply comming in the marina, prices will boom again and you could potentially be stuck with low rent income in a high rent income market.

One advantage of the Torch is that its marina view and location allows it to make it possible to rent to the tourist vacation market also.

As Mackie said, not a chance of getting 135k for a 2 bed in the Torch. Lets get real now guys the market is moving downwards. Mag tower will be handing over before Torch so watch the prices advertised there.

My expectation for Torch rentals starting Summer 2011 earliest would be 1 bed 65k, 2 bed 85k. If you get more it will be a bonus but stop deluding yourselves with this 135k rubbish.

Forget about expectations and start talking facts. Fact is I had an on the table offer for a 3 bed furnished in The Point this lunchtime for 145k net to me. Im holding out for a bit more so hope the punter aint reading this thread......

That's true. On the positive side, The Torch will be a notable landmark when completed and I believe apartments will rent for at least 10% of OP, after service charges or be capable of being sold in even the current market for a premium.

Not a chance, 6% to 7% net if you are lucky :cheers:

You dont need to be lucky, you just need to understand basic economic principals.

THE PRINCIPAL OF LEVERAGED RETURNS

An example investor using a 3 bed Torch unit on LPP - Sale date August 2007

Purchase price = Dh2m
Total sum payable over 15 year LPP = Dh3m
Torch Completion date and rental income commences 2nd Q 2011
Total paid from August 2007 - April 2011 = Dh1m
Further Dh150k payable each year
Rental income of Dh145k pa
Assuming service charge of Dh15psf x 1750 sqf = Dh26,250 pa
This assumes no rent increases or service charge increases

April 2011 - April 2012 ROI = 14.5% gross - 11.9% net
April 2012 - April 2013 ROI = 12.6% gross - 10.4% net
April 2013 - April 2014 ROI = 11.2% gross - 9.2% net
April 2014 - April 2015 ROI = 10% gross - 8.2% net

Adding up the net yield figures and then dividing them by 7 (total term of investment), gives an average annualised yield of 5.6% net. Sell your unit in 2015 at more than the original price of Dh2m and then factor that profit back in over the 7 year term of the investment.

To keep a 14.5% gross yield constant the rent would only have to increase as follows:

2012 - 2013 = Dh166k pa
2013 - 2014 = Dh188k pa
2014 - 2015 = Dh210k pa

The luck part has to do with finding a good tenant and keeping them. Service charges will increase on yearly basis and you can’t increase the rent for the first two years (or ever because of the index). Which ever way you dress it, earning approx AED120k a year and having to find AED30k more (minimum) from elsewhere to sustain payment on this example is a lousy deal.
That was a good example compared with the units on SPP, which is a high % of units.

Using the same logic only proves our earlier discussions about 1 and 2 BRs being a much better investment :cheers:

I was offered recently a 4 BR in the building near to Emirates Harbour (Marriott), Marina / Emirates Crown I think for 675/sqft, which was shocking to me :cry:

Forget about expectations and start talking facts. Fact is I had an on the table offer for a 3 bed furnished in The Point this lunchtime for 145k net to me. Im holding out for a bit more so hope the punter aint reading this thread......

That is todays fact, what we are trying to guage is tomorrows facts.

The point I broached earlier was that people should be prepared for the figures I quoted if they are relying on rental income to pay their mortgages or whatever. Anything else should be considered a bonus.

If people have a "business plan" based on achieving 135k for a 2 bed then their business could be in trouble. Better to start now and work off the figures I quoted, that way they will not be in for any more nasty surprises.

You dont need to be lucky, you just need to understand basic economic principals.

THE PRINCIPAL OF LEVERAGED RETURNS

An example investor using a 3 bed Torch unit on LPP - Sale date August 2007

Purchase price = Dh2m
Total sum payable over 15 year LPP = Dh3m
Torch Completion date and rental income commences 2nd Q 2011
Total paid from August 2007 - April 2011 = Dh1m
Further Dh150k payable each year
Rental income of Dh145k pa
Assuming service charge of Dh15psf x 1750 sqf = Dh26,250 pa
This assumes no rent increases or service charge increases

April 2011 - April 2012 ROI = 14.5% gross - 11.9% net
April 2012 - April 2013 ROI = 12.6% gross - 10.4% net
April 2013 - April 2014 ROI = 11.2% gross - 9.2% net
April 2014 - April 2015 ROI = 10% gross - 8.2% net

Adding up the net yield figures and then dividing them by 7 (total term of investment), gives an average annualised yield of 5.6% net. Sell your unit in 2015 at more than the original price of Dh2m and then factor that profit back in over the 7 year term of the investment.

To keep a 14.5% gross yield constant the rent would only have to increase as follows:

2012 - 2013 = Dh166k pa
2013 - 2014 = Dh188k pa
2014 - 2015 = Dh210k pa

You make some good points HT, but if you were trying to get me to invest in HT Torch rentals Inc, I would be concerned about those figures.

I am looking at the fact that AED1m is already paid out.

The ongoing annual liability is a further 150k + 26k maint.

The income to service the annual liability is 145k.

The income/liability ratio is a negative in cash flow terms so sorry I'm out! If the rental market collapses due to mortgages becoming readily available, or a mass exodus, then I may have to sell the asset and pay fees left right and centre. I would probably be lucky to recoup my capital invested after sustaining a rental loss for years.

It's not a very sexy proposition.:)

The luck part has to do with finding a good tenant and keeping them. Service charges will increase on yearly basis and you can’t increase the rent for the first two years (or ever because of the index). Which ever way you dress it, earning approx AED120k a year and having to find AED30k more (minimum) from elsewhere to sustain payment on this example is a lousy deal.
That was a good example compared with the units on SPP, which is a high % of units.

I agree with you that service charges in Dubai will only get higher and in turn have the potential to reduce net yields.

I do think this will happen.

There are several ways around not being able to increase you rent under the index system. The loopholes are there and working perfectly.

The RERA rental index states that Dubai Marina 3beds can be Dh220k -Dh300k. I know this is not actualy realistic in todays market.

Heres one as an example:

Contract your tennant at Dh200k and offer 3 months rent free in year 1, 2 months rent free in year 2, and 1 month in year three. Making the rent payable as follows:

Year 1 Dh150k
Year 2 Dh166K
Year 3 Dh183k
Year 4 Dh200k

If he wants to stay your covered, if not you are free to incresae anyway.

Personaly i could never understand anyone buying on SPP if you could have a leveraged deal which not only increases profitability, but acts as an inurance policy to a degree in case of total failure all for around 7%. The ability to refinance upon completion will always be there and easier with a solid asset to secure against.

If as you say there a high percentage of units on SPP then this may enable owners to take control over service charges and building management and keep costs down. This in my view is imperative, not only in the Torch but in Dubai.

You make some good points HT, but if you were trying to get me to invest in HT Torch rentals Inc, I would be concerned about those figures.

I am looking at the fact that AED1m is already paid out.

The ongoing annual liability is a further 150k + 26k maint.

The income to service the annual liability is 145k.

The income/liability ratio is a negative in cash flow terms so sorry I'm out! If the rental market collapses due to mortgages becoming readily available, or a mass exodus, then I may have to sell the asset and pay fees left right and centre. I would probably be lucky to recoup my capital invested after sustaining a rental loss for years.

It's not a very sexy proposition.:)

It's not a very sexy proposition with the hindsight of whats happend in the last 2 years i agree. But then neither was buying a ticket for the Titanics maiden voyage.

My point was not trying to say what a great investment the scenario was, simply proving that even in the current crisis (which is far from over in Dubai), the Torch still stands up in investment terms. There are billions of investors across the globe that invested in all kinds of asset classes(incuding cash) in 2007 that would rip your hands off to achive a net yield of 5.6% from 2007 - 2014.

I can give you last weeks winning lottery numbers if you like, is that sexy enough for you?

^^Hindsight, worthless, not priceless:)

If we get lucky and prices double in 7 to 10 years then hindsight would call this a sexy proposition.

How big are the 3 beds in The Torch?

I can give you last weeks winning lottery numbers if you like, is that sexy enough for you?

On rare occasions, that can be extremely useful information.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8259801.stm

How big are the 3 beds in The Torch?

1740 sq ft.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2nqa3gp.jpg

^^ what are they doing in the lighted units, snagging? I thought interiors were mostly done up to 60 floors

Those units handed over last week.

mackie owes you £100.

Dont listen to True Blue he is just pissed off that i found a home video of him when he was a lad;

t6qoQ7UvEBk

^^^^^^^^^^^^TRUE BLUE
:lol:

1740 sq ft.

Oh well. Another one to strike of the rental possibilities for 2011 then :(

^^ why?

^^ why?

We like space. 1740 sq ft for a 3 bed would be way too small.

In general , some times if not all time .

the officer manger of this tower or any tower of dubai marina can easily F**k up the deal ( by keep asking a low rental price for any new tennant looking around for such a deal for example you just ask for 150k he/she will screw up the deal by telling him we have more then 40 flats available with only 135k then dramtically , your'e tennant will dance salsa inside The Manger office ) my advice for all ya , first make a big deal with Manger Office then if you will bring washing brainer (tennants) from outside UAE then it's just blindness story... otherwise, you all will be all time in Happy Moon LOL !

my point keep the hush thing with Torch M officer :)

We like space. 1740 sq ft for a 3 bed would be way too small.

The Jewels 3 beds are twice that size averaging 3500ft2.

1740ft2 is small for a 3 bed. I noticed that Mag 218 2 beds are just short of 1800ft2.

The Jewels 3 beds are twice that size averaging 3500ft2.

1740ft2 is small for a 3 bed. I noticed that Mag 218 2 beds are just short of 1800ft2.

We have been a bit spoilt by our 2000+ sq ft 2-bedder in Seef 3 (JLT). Made it very difficult looking for somewhere different to move this year. Most tempting was Manazel 3 beds at 2700+ with an OMG view of the Burj, Downtown and SZR, but in the end we decided to stay put.

^^Is is possible to get Burj view :banana: from any Marina towers?

Say like the west Marina.

Or better still from the Marina Mall?:)

^^Is is possible to get Burj view :banana: from any Marina towers?

Say like the west Marina.


Yes. You can see the Burj from the Torch on a very clear day.

We have been a bit spoilt by our 2000+ sq ft 2-bedder in Seef 3 (JLT). Made it very difficult looking for somewhere different to move this year. Most tempting was Manazel 3 beds at 2700+ with an OMG view of the Burj, Downtown and SZR, but in the end we decided to stay put.


Ultimately what was it that made you decide to stay in JLT and not move to downtown?

Ultimately what was it that made you decide to stay in JLT and not move to downtown?

Good question, because as you well know, I'm a huge fan of Downtown.

Two things really -

1. SWMBO won't accept anything with a small kitchen. Sadly, that ruled out The Residences and Old Town, which is where I'd want to be.
2. We very seriously considered a 3 bed in Manazel. Ticked all the right boxes, stunning quality, awesome views, huge kitchen and living areas. But was 40K a year more in rent than where we are now, and taking into account moving & other costs, I reckon would have cost us an extra 60K over 12 months.

In the end, the head ruled the heart for a change.

12/February/2010

The Torch

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These cladding installers have a strange way of working. They don't complete a floor at a time, they just keep going vertical in a panel. Now they have overtaken the other works as you can clearly see the blockwork is not done and neither is the concrete kickers.

Normal progress here !! Top section is growing...

Good question, because as you well know, I'm a huge fan of Downtown.

Two things really -

1. SWMBO won't accept anything with a small kitchen. Sadly, that ruled out The Residences and Old Town, which is where I'd want to be.
2. We very seriously considered a 3 bed in Manazel. Ticked all the right boxes, stunning quality, awesome views, huge kitchen and living areas. But was 40K a year more in rent than where we are now, and taking into account moving & other costs, I reckon would have cost us an extra 60K over 12 months.

In the end, the head ruled the heart for a change.


Ahhh the wife decided. :)

http://i46.tinypic.com/1i1k5v.jpg

From GH

http://i46.tinypic.com/23sej38.jpg

This roof feature, seriously what is it?
Observation deck? Common room?Banqueting facilities? Games rooms?
Mars bars won't last very long up there in that heat.!!

This roof feature, seriously what is it?
Observation deck? Common room?Banqueting facilities? Games rooms?
Mars bars won't last very long up there in that heat.!!

My understanding is that this is just the supporting structure for the LED display. The observation deck is on one of the lower floors. I could be wrong.

^^yeah thats what I thought. similar to all the other buildings around it.

2BED FOR SALE AT 710 PER SQ FT.FOR SALE WITH SP RESALE TEAM.

2BED FOR SALE AT 710 PER SQ FT.FOR SALE WITH SP RESALE TEAM.

Which floor and type? Would they transfer the LPP?

Which floor and type? Would they transfer the LPP?

I.ll send a PM.

No, post it.

Do you want to go halves Al? :)

[QUOTE=agod;52038571]No, post it.[/QUO


SENT YOU A PM

It certainately wont be a 53rd floor 2 bed, marina facing will it?

Wot, like I have one bedroom, you have another, we split kitchen duties, and only one toothbrush at a time in the bathroom, and do you leave the top of the toothpaste, I hate that............that kind of sharing Mack, trouble is they lock shirt lifters up in this part of the world.

Little Al

:lol:

Some imagination you have there Al, I meant to rent it out if there are any tenants left by then :bash:

I blame the set of big binoculars you have, you are obviously watching too many naked people every day :lol::cheers:

Do you want to go halves Al? :)

You could have a 3 some

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=52026853&postcount=842

£48k each then get back £6k rent each year - 12.5% gross yield.

Forget about expectations and start talking facts. Fact is I had an on the table offer for a 3 bed furnished in The Point this lunchtime for 145k net to me. Im holding out for a bit more so hope the punter aint reading this thread......

Posted this a week ago and for the record so you can guage what rents are acheiving at this moment, i let the above appt 3 days ago for 185k net to me with 2 cheques tenant moves in 1st march. Hope this helps you all with your valuations. Will get some pics of all projects at the weekend.

Posted this a week ago and for the record so you can guage what rents are acheiving at this moment, i let the above appt 3 days ago for 185k net to me with 2 cheques tenant moves in 1st march. Hope this helps you all with your valuations. Will get some pics of all projects at the weekend.

Great result under current conditions, well done :applause::applause:

Posted this a week ago and for the record so you can guage what rents are acheiving at this moment, i let the above appt 3 days ago for 185k net to me with 2 cheques tenant moves in 1st march. Hope this helps you all with your valuations. Will get some pics of all projects at the weekend.

CBP, did you let this one furnished ??

J yes fully furnished. Nice couple. I love the views down at the yatch club but hate the finishes to the common parts, pool deck, gym etc so will use the reddies towards something with a bit better finish. Possible look at MP until that building in phase 1 next to MS completes.

J yes fully furnished. Nice couple. I love the views down at the yatch club but hate the finishes to the common parts, pool deck, gym etc so will use the reddies towards something with a bit better finish. Possible look at MP until that building in phase 1 next to MS completes.

Sounds like a plan ! I think a few of us are awaiting info on the same building. Well done on the rental figure BTW. :cheers:

Forget about expectations and start talking facts. Fact is I had an on the table offer for a 3 bed furnished in The Point this lunchtime for 145k net to me. Im holding out for a bit more so hope the punter aint reading this thread......

i let the above appt 3 days ago for 185k net to me with 2 cheques tenant moves in 1st march. Hope this helps you all with your valuations.

Charlie, what do you think is the reason for your success here? everyone else seems to be saying that rents all over the Marina are falling like a stone yet you seem to be bucking the trend.

Any insight ?

185k in 2 cheques, wow!! That is well above the 100k/ft quoted to me around 6 months ago. I guess the location has paid off..:colgate:

Posted this a week ago and for the record so you can guage what rents are acheiving at this moment, i let the above appt 3 days ago for 185k net to me with 2 cheques tenant moves in 1st march. Hope this helps you all with your valuations. Will get some pics of all projects at the weekend.

One-beds in The Point rent for around AED 95k, CBP's 3-bed just went for 185k. I'd say a 2-bed would be mid-way between the two, which is 140k, or even a little more (more demand for 2-beds than 3s). So my estimate of 135k for a Torch 2-bed, slightly smaller than the Point ones but on a higher floor, is probably not far off and may even be a little pessimistic.

135k now maybe but not sure about in 1 years time when the market is flooded with units, may need to drop that by 20% to around 110k. The Torch's open marina view however will make it very desirable over many others.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2vrzzn5.jpg

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Why have they left the cladding of the glass in the middle of the tower of the 2 beds till last?

It's pretty obvious to me CBP, knows his King Edwards, he buys the right places in the right locations, and furnishes them well, and he has USP's that's why het gets the rent he does.

If your a young couple, and you have trooped around a couple of dozen apartments, and you come across Chalies place, all nice and luvly jubly, you sign up.

A.

19/February/2010

The Torch

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Charlie, what do you think is the reason for your success here? everyone else seems to be saying that rents all over the Marina are falling like a stone yet you seem to be bucking the trend.

Any insight ?


This tenant came through dubizzle. I think the tenants are trying it on with desperate landlords and having a result. Mine started at 145 and finished a couple days later at 185 which I couldnt refuse.

It's pretty obvious to me CBP, knows his King Edwards, he buys the right places in the right locations, and furnishes them well, and he has USP's that's why het gets the rent he does.

If your a young couple, and you have trooped around a couple of dozen apartments, and you come across Chalies place, all nice and luvly jubly, you sign up.

A.

Al I think your right about the finishes, and views do give you the edge over the competition. I have nothing in TT but am seriously considering it and looking at several at the moment. Not for me to live in as I expect the finish to be equal to the point but rental. I was looking at TT a couple years back at around 1000 to 1100 psf yesterday looked at a couple between 700 and 800 psf which is cheap. The punt of buying now is you wont get it until next spring or summer and who knows what the market will do, downside is there are hundreds of 2 beds in here that will hit the market together and reading between the lines there are a lot of overstretched investors that will be happy to take a lesser rent to get a deal. Individual finishes and a view will really help here.

Well done CBP. Very good results. Also thanks for sharing.

Give Yourself a Pat on the Back.:banana:

Why have they left the cladding of the glass in the middle of the tower of the 2 beds till last?

Steve i think its so that they have easier access to get the kit into the building. I'm sure TB will know for sure.

2BED FOR SALE AT 710 PER SQ FT.FOR SALE WITH SP RESALE TEAM.



Isn't that very cheap? On Dubizzle, price for 2beds ranges from 938AED/sqf till 1200AED/sqf. What's the catch?

Isn't that very cheap? On Dubizzle, price for 2beds ranges from 938AED/sqf till 1200AED/sqf. What's the catch?

Is anyone buying at those prices on Dubizzle? There are 2 beds advertised for Dorrabay at 3.0M everyweek so not selling. Just asking does not show the market value.

Point 750ft 1 beds at 95k rent, wow! Suppose it is still cheap compared to MP units at 120k.

Isn't that very cheap? On Dubizzle, price for 2beds ranges from 938AED/sqf till 1200AED/sqf. What's the catch?




No catch.PM me if your interested.870,000 all in.1227 SQ/FT

Steve i think its so that they have easier access to get the kit into the building. I'm sure TB will know for sure.

I think you're right. If we are talking about where the external lift is fixed to the building.

Al I think your right about the finishes, and views do give you the edge over the competition. I have nothing in TT but am seriously considering it and looking at several at the moment. Not for me to live in as I expect the finish to be equal to the point but rental. I was looking at TT a couple years back at around 1000 to 1100 psf yesterday looked at a couple between 700 and 800 psf which is cheap. The punt of buying now is you wont get it until next spring or summer and who knows what the market will do, downside is there are hundreds of 2 beds in here that will hit the market together and reading between the lines there are a lot of overstretched investors that will be happy to take a lesser rent to get a deal. Individual finishes and a view will really help here.


Charlie, we have a different mind set to other investors, all my rentals, London, Florida, Up North, are all way above anything out there that others own, because I dont mind spending money on them to my standard, and looking good, I very rarely have any void periods in any of my places for that reason.

I never understand investors, that buy cheap, furnish cheap, and cry about not getting rentals.

To be honest, I thought about The Torch, a lot, and I think the prices as they are now, are a steal.

Al.

If any of you guys are interested in purchasing 'talks' torch apartment with me, please let me know, if a few of us get together to buy this - it will take out a lot of risk on our investment - no more than 4 of us though :)

I am definately interested.
PM me if anyone wants to join.

Paul

No catch.PM me if your interested.870,000 all in.1227 SQ/FT

What was the original launch price for your unit. Looks like you are selling at around 28% below the 2005 launch price. That is a real bargain. Since it is not on the LPP, I guess your logic is to try and recoup most of what you paid in 2005 after the curreny transfer at around 5.7. Those on LPP can not do that as they have already paid a lot in interest payments.

What was the original launch price for your unit. Looks like you are selling at around 28% below the 2005 launch price. That is a real bargain. Since it is not on the LPP, I guess your logic is to try and recoup most of what you paid in 2005 after the curreny transfer at around 5.7. Those on LPP can not do that as they have already paid a lot in interest payments.

Doesnt matter if your on SPP or LPP. If your broke and you cant afford your next payment, selling at 50% below OP is more attractive than loosing your unit under default.

There will be thousands of desperate sellers trying to escape payment defaults all over Dubai this year. Each tower will see panic sales as the development hands over i suspect.

Dubai is now long hold territory and will be for at least 5 years.

What was the original launch price for your unit. Looks like you are selling at around 28% below the 2005 launch price. That is a real bargain. Since it is not on the LPP, I guess your logic is to try and recoup most of what you paid in 2005 after the curreny transfer at around 5.7. Those on LPP can not do that as they have already paid a lot in interest payments.

hello everyone !

been watching this site for a while as i have a vested interest in the torch, having bought a 2bed apt when launched in 2005. does anyone know
how progress is coming on inside ? ::cheers:

What was the original launch price for your unit. Looks like you are selling at around 28% below the 2005 launch price. That is a real bargain. Since it is not on the LPP, I guess your logic is to try and recoup most of what you paid in 2005 after the curreny transfer at around 5.7. Those on LPP can not do that as they have already paid a lot in interest payments.



Original Price..1,071,776 DIRHAMS
You are 100% correct Steve.Some Dirham I purchased at 7per1 GBP.

Original Price..1,071,776 DIRHAMS
You are 100% correct Steve.Some Dirham I purchased at 7per1 GBP.

Can i hazard a guess at a Le Reve/Marina Pinnacle facing - sub 30 floor unit ?

Can i hazard a guess at a Le Reve/Marina Pinnacle facing - sub 30 floor unit ?

Sent PM.

Can i hazard a guess at a Le Reve/Marina Pinnacle facing - sub 30 floor unit ?

HT are you saying that these units are the least desirable. I just come back from there and I reckon that 0n the lower units 2beds 1 to 22 the Reve corner called an 12 appt has a view to die for, plus the sq lounge and not the bad design triangle effort and a useable balcony not the split thing of the 23-65 units. The 09 and 06 have great views but risk the plot in front. Of the 2 beds on 23-65 I really liked the 01 05 and 06 view wise but was dissapointed with the lounge balcony layout/use of space.

And the one bedded next to 12 has also a very good view (No. 1). Morrismarina had one of them I think (overlooking the pool and palm).

There is no doubt in my mind that the plot upfront will be used and much sooner than people think. The only question is how high and how dense it will be. There is a lot of money about and construction costs are at all time low. Big players will make a killing here.:cheers:

The prices in the Torch are very attractive at the minute but having to deal with Select makes it a non starter for many people. They have alienated quite a few people and their reputation is getting worse by the day despite continuing to build :ohno:

Latest press release from Cayan, Infinity to complete April 2011.

YOU GUYS BETTER GET A MOVE ON!!!!:banana:

And the one bedded next to 12 has also a very good view (No. 1). Morrismarina had one of them I think (overlooking the pool and palm).

There is no doubt in my mind that the plot upfront will be used and much sooner than people think. The only question is how high and how dense it will be. There is a lot of money about and construction costs are at all time low. Big players will make a killing here.:cheers:

The prices in the Torch are very attractive at the minute but having to deal with Select makes it a non starter for many people. They have alienated quite a few people and their reputation is getting worse by the day despite continuing to build :ohno:

That's right, we are looking to buy but we wouldn't touch Select with a bargepole.

HT are you saying that these units are the least desirable. I just come back from there and I reckon that 0n the lower units 2beds 1 to 22 the Reve corner called an 12 appt has a view to die for, plus the sq lounge and not the bad design triangle effort and a useable balcony not the split thing of the 23-65 units. The 09 and 06 have great views but risk the plot in front and the 03 looks at concrete. Of the 2 beds on 23-65 I really liked the 01 05 and 06 view wise but was dissapointed with the lounge balcony layout/use of space.

Does any one have any interior photos of the 2 bed on floor 23-65 so we can see the lounge / kitchen layout in reality?

HT are you saying that these units are the least desirable. I just come back from there and I reckon that 0n the lower units 2beds 1 to 22 the Reve corner called an 12 appt has a view to die for, plus the sq lounge and not the bad design triangle effort and a useable balcony not the split thing of the 23-65 units. The 09 and 06 have great views but risk the plot in front and the 03 looks at concrete. Of the 2 beds on 23-65 I really liked the 01 05 and 06 view wise but was dissapointed with the lounge balcony layout/use of space.

My comment was made as a guess in respect of the price paid on launch,(with respect to the unit and its' location in the building).

I was not insinuating anything other than that. :)

What is the best aspect in peoples view. I have an 07 view.

The views expressed in 05 are still the funniest!

What is the best aspect in peoples view. I have an 07 view.

There are at least 2 types of 07. 1 bed onto the marina and 2 beds a bit higher looking at Marina crown corner. The first I think is by far the nicer.

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Steve you asked earlier about internal pics of TT. I was in there today viewing several appts but unable to take pictures, it wouldnt off been the right thing to do but I will tell you how it is. DCE have learnt from the point and the finish is an improvement. There are even a few touches extra like cornicing, floor tiles laid diagonal and trims etc. The kit is the same, bathrooms, kitchens tiles doors and wardrobes but it has been assembled with a bit more care. The end product is better and if all the appts are completed to the ones I went in which were only at consultant snag stage you aint got too much to worry about here.

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