#COMPLETED: THE TORCH, 84F Res, 338m [Archive] - Page 8

Mistermark

June 11th, 2006, 11:24 AM

Scooby - you keep banging on about the fraudulent activity of DS, how you were mislead etc....now let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are 100% correct... even so, you have no case against them whatsoever and you will not be able to take any legal action.. You know why ??? Because they offered you a full refund....and you've declined it. So it's "Case dismissed my Lord, stop wasting the time of the Court"
So I'll ask once again.... please tell the members of this forum why you preferred to keep your apartment and declined to have your money back. Come on answer the question.

I can't speak for Scooby, but as someone else who was offered a full refund by DS and declined it as insufficient compensation I'd like to answer your question.

Had Scooby and I, or anyone else, reserved pretty much any off-plan property in Dubai when The Torch was first released we would expect, today, to have made a capital gain on that investment. If we simply allowed DS to give us our money back, we would have lost out by that amount. Similarly, any other costs incurred (exchange rate losses, money transfer fees etc) would be our losses, not DS's.

I spent some time getting legal advice relating to the DS contract. In essence, had it been executed under the law of England and Wales it would have been an open and shut case - they would have been responsible for putting me as the wronged party back in the position I would have been in had they not been in breach of contract (the contract allows for changes of specification, and it provides a specification - things like the materials used for door handles - but it doesn't allow for changes of position, dimensions or configuration), which means not just returning monies paid but also making good consequential losses, including the opportunity cost of not having achieved a capital gain. However the situation was a lot less clear and the level of control I could execute over the case a lot lower as the contract is under UAE law.

In a perfect world anyone buying off-plan in Dubai would ask that the contract be executed under the law over here, not over there, but whether or not an agent or developer would agree to this is another matter.

Morrismarina

June 11th, 2006, 12:29 PM

Well thanks for replying Mistermark. I accept what you are saying and your entitled to your point of view. To be honest I do find your posts and those in other threads very good indeed and well argued on your part and I agree with nearly everything you say on other issues about the Marina etc.
The difference with your posts and Scooby's is that you make your point and then that's it.......job well done.
Scooby however, has to keeping going on and on and on.......telling us again and again and again....at every possible opportunity , no matter what the post is about...how DS have done him wrong.......it's like a bloody record being played all the time. I for one am sick of hearing it and I wish to God he's let it rest now.
This thread is supposed to be about the construction of the Torch, not his investment issues.

dubaiflo

June 11th, 2006, 12:31 PM

^^ u won't get it, will u!

#UNDER C: THE TORCH 84F Res, 345m (INVESTMENT Q's STRICTLY NOT PERMITTED)

Morrismarina

June 11th, 2006, 12:44 PM

Sorry Flo.....

dubaiflo

June 11th, 2006, 02:18 PM

well nevermind, i was actually referring to mistermark.. anyway.

it is not so difficult is it... and this is not even in any way related to the torch but rather a general issue.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 11th, 2006, 03:12 PM

Hi all, does anyone know what the 'external skin' is as it appears in the contract floor plan, i.e. the external lines that connect the corner balconies to the living room?
http://www.jeenterprises.com/newtinybalcony.jpg
Apparently it will look nice, all the way up the corners on the outside, whatever it is?

Morrismarina

June 11th, 2006, 05:14 PM

I was watching a programme on TV the other day about designing and constructing supertall towers. A lot of attention has to be paid to stability especially the wind flow around the sides of a very high tower. They mentioned that certain designs will not work and the walls have to deflect the wind in a certain way otherwise a vortex is created. They make a mock-up model and put it in a wind tunnel, the same as when they design an aircraft. I would guess that the skin is to improve the wind flow around the tower.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 11th, 2006, 05:46 PM

Thanks morrismarina, it sounds plausible, so far DS are due to get back to us on this one (we've asked quite a few times) but in the meantime they have said it is for aesthetic reasons and it will in no way obstruct the views. I'm curious though, as it appears in the floor plan, how can it not block some of the views? A line in the floor plan usually means a vertical wall, so will the external skin be vertical, and if it goes all the way up from the base of the building then the views from the corner living room windows may be blocked? I'm sure this is not the case, so as you can see I'm confused.
Will it be made of shiny blue aluminium to enhance the appearance of the Torch?

Morrismarina

June 12th, 2006, 02:12 AM

I see what you mean Scooby about obstructing the views. Just looked at your floorplan again. It seems to go right across both windows in the lounge which means my theory cannot be correct as you'll have no windows at all. I really cannot work it what it is. There's nothing on the render model to show it either. Would have thought it was easy for DS to check with the architects in Dubai so hopefully they'll have an answer within a few days for you.

AltinD

June 12th, 2006, 07:56 PM

What do you think of this?

http://i5.tinypic.com/14470ib.jpg

:runaway:

dubaiflo

June 12th, 2006, 08:07 PM

^^ it must be the marina mall.

Krazy

June 12th, 2006, 08:27 PM

^^ disagree... again

Naz UK

June 12th, 2006, 10:21 PM

^^ What has this to do with the Torch?

Krazy

June 12th, 2006, 10:37 PM

that might be what ends up in front of your lovely torch naz

Naz UK

June 12th, 2006, 10:51 PM

oh, i see...another "might".. I can sleep tight then. :tongue2:

(Oh and btw, if it is indeed in front of the Torch, it'll be like trying to hide a Cornetto behind a wafer, side ways on)

GreenKiwi

June 13th, 2006, 11:41 AM

Just did the obvious and rang Meinhardt Singapore to speak to the person handling this. The render you are debating is the Marina Mall and is not going in front of MH/TT

arfie

June 13th, 2006, 11:49 AM

Did they say where it was going to built then ?

GreenKiwi

June 13th, 2006, 11:52 AM

Look at the Marina Mall thread. In the middle of the Marina opposite side to JBR

Gorilla

June 13th, 2006, 12:42 PM

Anyway this gives a good flavour of things to come in front of TT/MH. More serviced apartments/Hotel/Restaurant/Mall

Stephan23

June 13th, 2006, 01:43 PM

Has piling started?? Don't discuss about other buildings here!!! :wallbash:

scoobydoobyBUY

June 13th, 2006, 02:25 PM

When is the Torch going to start for real, i.e. when will we start to see floors? I though this was due to start in June (this month) or is Dubai Select piling all the resources into The Point? !!
Is June 2008 still the planned completion date?
I've been told that a new rendering should hopefully be available next week after all the details are worked out.

Rider

June 13th, 2006, 02:30 PM

Krazy

June 13th, 2006, 03:04 PM

is Dubai Select piling all the resources into The Point? !!

scooby do you have any idea how annoying it is when you keep fuckin repeating that!???? STOP ACTING LIKE A CHILD AND HAVE SOME PATIENCE! The construction is in full swing as is clear from the updates and it takes some time! Now stop ruining this thread with your childish concerns!

Gorilla

June 13th, 2006, 03:13 PM

Don't discuss about other buildings here!!! :wallbash:

What goes in front of TT is of prime interest to everyone connected with Torch and in fact I would say most towers around it. So calm down...

Krazy

June 13th, 2006, 03:16 PM

^^ Wrong. This thread is meant only for discussing THE TORCH like the title suggests - not your pretty views of the marina or what may block it but the building itself. What is of "prime interest" to the ones ''connected'' with Torch is not of any significance when it comes to this forum. The thread is for discussing the tower and not what may rise in front of it.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 13th, 2006, 03:16 PM

Sorry Krazy if my question has driven you mad.
Seriously, I'm sure all observers would like to know when the floors will start appearing? wasn't it supposed to be June?

Krazy

June 13th, 2006, 03:21 PM

It's not your question that drove me mad.. it's your pointless "are they diverting the finances to the point" concerns! have some patience because ground work always takes time... i wouldnt expect anything before sept-oct

Gorilla

June 13th, 2006, 03:22 PM

First not allowed to talk about Investment now not allowed to talk about views, what next Krazy!

Don't loose your head now you are the only active mod here, disappointed!

Krazy

June 13th, 2006, 03:38 PM

I didnt say you're not allowed to talk about views. I was talking about you shhshing Stephen because he wnated to get back to the tower. I was just reminding you what the main point of the thread is - discussing the development of the tower. You are free to talk about the views etc but let's not forget the main topic that's all.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 13th, 2006, 03:41 PM

Krazy, you're crazy! I never said that, I read it in these forums!
So, back to The Torch, just The Torch, and nothing but The Torch, does anyone actually expect to see the beginnings of The Torch (above ground level) in the near future?

Krazy

June 13th, 2006, 03:44 PM

Im sorry I came across wrong. I didnt mean YOU said it but people have said it repeatedly in the past and it's annoying now because it's just stupid to worry about something like that.

I expect the excavation to be completed shortly. After that, if Dubai Select stick to their schedule piling should be compelted by the end of the year and we should see the first floors rise. However, we have seen in the past that there are often delays after excavation is completed (Ocean Heights, 23 Marina) so I hope that doesnt happen with the Torch.

dubaiflo

June 13th, 2006, 04:16 PM

c'mon guys, keep cool...

samir u can allow them talking about views,.. that should be within the interest of this forum.

Krazy

June 13th, 2006, 04:16 PM

again I didnt say you're not allowed to talk about views... moving on

Stephan23

June 14th, 2006, 10:36 AM

Gorilla

June 14th, 2006, 11:19 AM

disagree with Krazy and Stephan, this is also a forum about Dubai Marina you can't not be interested in what goes on around the place.

Do you guys read other threads here!! is full of cross-reference to other buildings and what goes on around it.

stop restricting thought and discussion so much and threads will settle down.

DL where are you, come back please...........

Stephan23

June 14th, 2006, 11:49 AM

Look on top of the Marina thread site. There is a thread with Project: Dubai Marina.

charlie big potatoes

June 14th, 2006, 07:57 PM

guys,had a great view of your plot yesterday. Great vantage point is BAR44 at the Grovernor House. Drinks steep but the views fab. One to recommend.

Morrismarina

June 14th, 2006, 09:18 PM

Any news from DS Scooby about the "external skin" thing near your balcony ?? I'm only guessing of course but I think it may be just a bar going across at your apartment floor level to the side walls with an infill of perhaps some plastic sheeting. It seems to follow the line where the edge of your old large style balcony would have been. It must be just for cosmetic reasons, perhaps it makes the tower look better looking up from the ground. I can't see any purpose for it other than that but to be honest a bit dissappointing if they haven't come back to you about it yet.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 15th, 2006, 10:20 AM

Yes I've had news, apparently it is a piece of external concrete the connects the balcony and the living room for cosmetic reasons, but only at the floor level. So it is not e.g. a vertical sheet of blue aluminium along the side of the building!
In any case we should be expecting a new render of the building from DS which will make it more clear, hopefully this week or next.

To me it kind of sounds like an external 'filler' that occupies 'floor' space that would otherwise have been taken by the balcony that we were led to believe we would be getting at purchase time. In fact those lines representing the external skin on the floor plan in the contract would have definitely given the impression (without looking closely, as it was a floor plan not an apartment plan! damn) that the corner balconies were generally the same shape as those that were being falsely advertised in the brochures, website, emails etc.

So lets hope the new render will be out this week or in the near future so that we can get a better idea of the 'external skin'.

Ashka

June 15th, 2006, 11:46 PM

IncredibleFamily

June 17th, 2006, 10:04 AM

There is heavy debate about how many floors this tower is actually going to be. Lets see what happens I will give you an update soon.

Morrismarina

June 17th, 2006, 12:05 PM

I didn't think there was an issue about the number of floors. My sales brochure back in Sept'05 showed that the residential floors for sale at this time were numbered 6 to 73. There were five floors below the sixth floor not for sale, which were 4 car parking floors plus the fifth deck being the "leisure deck".
(There were also three underground car parking floors but these don't count as they're not above ground level). So.... a total of 73 floors above ground.
The structural changes earlier this year were to remove six floors at the top of the tower and slot them underneath at the bottom so the total number of floors remains exactly the same.
There is an LCD screen on top of the tower which was always taken to be about 10 floors in height. If this is added then the total number of floors is around 82/83 and it is this that may have caused confusion. So there are 73 actual above ground floors but the overall height of the tower including the LCD screen is equivalent to 82/83 above ground floors.
That's how I've always understood it.
However I have heard that there are 4 underground car parking floors, I'm not exactly sure about this, but it could be correct as with the re-arrangement of the tower actual number of apartments has increased so more parking space is needed. But of course, this would not increase the above ground height of the tower which has always remained unaltered.
Let's hope during contruction they decide to build a few extra floors at the top. :laugh:

Gorilla

June 17th, 2006, 12:07 PM

Excavation up to -3.4m DMD complete (95%)
1200mm shoring piles completed
Double U-Channel, section E & F with anchors complete

http://i5.tinypic.com/14nea02.jpg

scoobydoobyBUY

June 17th, 2006, 02:53 PM

Morrismarina, may I suggest that your LED screen is non-existent, pure fantasy! have you been smoking opium?

Morrismarina

June 17th, 2006, 03:21 PM

Hi Scooby no I don't smoke opium thank you very much. Now I know you didn't take any notice of your contract and floor plan before purchasing your apartment but surely you had a look at the DS sales brochure ??? For your information the LCD is the great big round thing stuck on top of the tower, or didn't you notice this either ?? Perhaps DS should have sent your documention out in brail. :jk:
Have a look at the picture of the render at the start of this thread.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 17th, 2006, 06:33 PM

Hi Mark, we did see the sales brochures and as you are aware there is a large amount of information contained within it that is simply false, just look at the tower on the cover of the brochure, on it's own little island just like The Burj, with fantastic views from every floor!
And the false advertising continues, buyers beware! But I'm not going into all the gory details now, again.
Suffice it is to say that Dubai Select recently indicated that there will be a aeriel on top of the Torch, not the residents' observation deck and enormous 10 story led that are probably the substance of your dreams! to sleep, perchance to dream. But they might simply have forgotten to mention it, so if you really believe in the led (again buyers beware), give us some evidence, e.g. a statement from Dubai Select? a statement in the brochure,on the website, in a private email, on the back of a prescription?

Tractor

June 17th, 2006, 06:40 PM

Looks like the Emaar sales centre is now a pile of rubble! Hope we hear about what's going there soon ...

Gorilla

June 17th, 2006, 07:51 PM

led sounds so tacky hope they abandon the idea

one of those things that looks interesting for a month then an eye sore for years

Morrismarina

June 17th, 2006, 08:05 PM

Hi Scooby I haven't heard anything about the LCD on the top being abandoned but if DS have confirmed this to you then it's not going to happen. What a shame I was really keen on the LCD. And if the residents' viewing area is gone as well I'm not too pleased with all this, sounds like a case of cutting costs. I did understand there was originally going to be an indoor pool and that got shelved as well. Not good......and they have not notified anybody about these changes....well certainly I've heard nothing.

Morrismarina

June 17th, 2006, 08:37 PM

Scooby are you really sure about all this - I notice Naz mentioned in his post on 3rd March that the LCD display is definitely going to be built.
And The Dubai Guys posted the info below on 1st April, you'll see paragraphs 7 mentions there's a viewing area and paragraph 10 confirms the LCD :

from construction weekly...it says its 360m...not sure if it includes the bit at the top though...

Saturday, 1 April, 2006
Piling into work on 360m Torch Tower
by Zoe Naylor

Piling and work underway in Dubai Marina on what will be one of the tallest residential towers in the world.
Dubai has earned the well-deserved moniker of ‘the city of superlatives’ — and the new US $191 million (AED700 million) Torch Tower, which is currently under construction in Dubai Marina, is no exception. When complete, the 360m-high superstructure will be one of the tallest new residential buildings in the world.

And a tower project such as this demands a range of cutting edge construction techniques, especially in the design stages. From the piling and ultra high-strength concrete, right through to a tower crane-mounted web cam to show overseas customers up-to-date progress of construction, the project team is aiming to deliver maximum quality in the minimum amount of time.

Dubai Civil Engineering (DCE) is the main contractor on the job, with National Engineering Bureau (NEB) as the design consultant, developing the original architectural concept from Khatib & Alami (K&A). Zublin Ground & Civil Engineering is the contractor for the piling and shoring works. The firm started work on site in February, and is nearing completion of its package.

“The secant pile wall is formed using a continuous 90cm diameter pile, incorporating an ‘over-cutting’ technique. This pile wall includes a three-layer anchor system to withstand the earth and water pressures,” says Holgar Wolfle, the project manager for Zublin. The main structure foundation piles are driven into the ground to a depth of 50m and have been re-designed to incorporate larger diameter piles under the central core spine, where the greatest pressure exists, to increase the stability of the structure.

According to Wolfle, on three sides of the site the shoring system is already finished with only the anchor layer still to be installed. The remaining side, which completes the shoring system, will be formed using a 1.2m-diameter pile that does not require any anchors. “After we’ve finished the shoring works, we will start the excavation and then the dewatering,” adds Wolfe. The rest of the dewatering will go down below the final excavation depth. “We are not lowering the water table outside of the site, only inside.”

Main contractors DCE will take over as soon as Zublin finishes the piling. “We’re looking to come in around August or September 2006,” says Venu Menon, project director, DCE. “We will start off by cutting the piles and doing the excavation for the four basement floors,” he adds.

The tower will comprise four basements plus a further four floors above the ground — a total of eight floors for car parking. Above these will be the leisure deck, with the residential area beginning on floor six. There also will be access to the roof to allow residents a panoramic view of the skyline. “The four basement floors, the parking floors and the leisure deck will each take up an area of around 3400m2 per floor. Once we start the residential units, this will decrease to around 1100m2 per floor,” says Menon.

The building will then be brought up gradually using slip form formwork, provided by DCE, to cast the floors. “DCE has an in-house slip form division which will be slipping the core,” explains Menon, “and we will always be three to four floors ahead of the slab.” The concrete for the floor slab will be 4m thick. All the slabs will be post-tensioned, again by DCE — the company was in fact one of the first to bring post-tensioning to the UAE market.

“We’ve done around 150 towers in Dubai and Sharjah — in Dubai Marina last year we handled over eight towers, and we currently have another seven in various stages of completion,” says Menon. He says that all DCE jobs use post-tensioned flat slabs. “This has the definite advantage of not having any drop beams, which makes life easier for the mechanical services, and speeds up the job.”

One of the most striking features of the tower (and the one that gives it its name) is the large LED display, which will be installed at the top of the building. The fully programmable iconic screen is likely to measure 30 to 40m in length, with the display being formed into a flame-shaped poly-carbon structure at the top of the tower. “This could be used as an artistic decoration feature, which could be displayed on the screen,” explains David Mullen, project manager at Dubai Select (the project’s developer).

A building of this height demands very high-strength concrete. “Tall structures will have a certain degree of movement nearing the top and it is normal to expect lateral sway of around 30cm in structures of this height. “In the floor sections we will be using 60-Newton concrete, and in some of the lower columns, 100 Newtons; but typically the building will be around 80 Newtons,” says Mullen.

Cladding on the building will be a mixture of aluminium and
glass and will be provided by DCE. “The lead time now for glass is about 12 weeks,” says Menon. “We have a licence to use an American profile and we buy the glass locally. “But aluminium is no problem since we have our own extrusion factory in Dubai Investments Park,” he adds.

“There are very few things we don’t do in-house, but one is readymix,” admits Menon. “We buy this from firms such as RMC and Unimix.” He says that tower projects demand one readymix supplier right from the beginning: “After eight or 10 floors you need to have a hydraulic placing boom and a stationary pump. And the supplier of this boom and pump won’t allow any other supplier to pump concrete through their equipment.”

Despite the plot’s location slap bang in the heart of Dubai Marina, Menon says that he is not anticipating any problems with delivery of materials: “Three sides of this site are surrounded by an asphalted road. And once the parking floors are built, we’ll use them as a storage area for all the finishing materials to help maximise space.”

In a bold manouevre, Dubai Select pre-agreed a contract price — around US $191 million (AED700 million) — with DCE at the start of the project. “We’ve guaranteed a maximum price we’re going to pay DCE, and we believe we’re the first to do that in the UAE,” says Mullen. But what happens if the price of steel, for example, shoots up again? Not a problem, according to Menon: “We have arrangements in place if there are substantial price increases,” he says. “Rebar is a potential problem, as we used to source it from a factory, but now we’ve set up our own facility in Jebel Ali, which will go into production in a month’s time.”

While DCE appears to have most bases covered thanks to its sizeable in-house capabilities, Dubai Select has decided to add a high-tech touch to the project by making use of web cam technology to show its Torch Tower customers what stage construction is at. “Around 80% of the tower has already been sold, mainly to customers in the UK, so we decided to install a web cam on site, so people can access the project wherever they may be,” explains Mullen. “It is new for our customers, and as far as we know it’s new for Dubai. We’re going to move the web cam around the site, so people can see the entire construction process,” he adds.

The quality of the construction process will come under close scrutiny via a long-term facilities management (FM) programme that has been devised by Dubai Select. “We’re already looking at the maintenance of the block and have devised a 10 to 20-year facilities management programme, which will include checking the post-tensioning for the concrete and looking at the fixing points,” explains Mullen. “We have around 30 contractors in line for the FM contract with bids due back in the next few weeks.” Although the FM award won’t be made until after the first year of maintenance from DCE, Mullen says it’s important to get the procedures in place now. “Look around and you’ll see we’re in a very dynamic market — contractors are over-stretched, and if you don’t get them signed up in advance there may not be any available.”

When the building is completed it is likely to be another landmark in the city of Dubai, according to Adnan Rahhal, project manager at NEB. “It’s going to be a unique tower in terms of its shape, height and location,” he says. “There aren’t many towers above the 50-floor mark in this area.” And judging by the fact that Torch Tower is already 80% sold, it would appear that Dubai’s construction flame is in little danger of blowing out just yet.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 17th, 2006, 09:18 PM

Hi Mark, you could call 0870 111 000 to confirm the situation, and let us all know....just in case?

scoobydoobyBUY

June 17th, 2006, 09:26 PM

Morrismarina, just saw your post, it certainly looks like you have a good reason to believe there will be an LED, so apologies if I thought you totally made it up! However during our several discussions with DS 2 weeks ago, we were told there would be a tall aerial, no mention of an LED, so I presume it was a temporary idea?

Where did you get the idea of the residents' viewing area and the indoor swimming pool from?

Morrismarina

June 17th, 2006, 11:17 PM

No worries Scooby - I heard about the viewing area from the above Construction News article. The indoor pool was mentioned here on this forum in a much earlier post, may be September last year time and then a later post said DS had shelved it. I must be fair here, DS have not said anything themselves about the provision of the LCD, indoor pool or viewing area in any of their literature so it is stuff I've picked up elsewhere. Although they do state "pools" but technically this could be the adult pool and children's pool. But the pictures in the brochure of course do clearly show the LCD on top of the tower (with an aerial) and I'm going to be very sad if it's not going ahead, it's one of the major features that makes the Torch different to other towers and, presumably why it's called the Torch in the first place.

Gorilla

June 18th, 2006, 03:44 PM

indoor pool was mentioned in very early details available back in May 2005, however very soon after they dropped the idea. I asked a DS sales guy on a roadshow back in June 2005 about the indoor pool and he responded currently Khatib & Alami are looking into feasibility of having one!!!!! in sales talk = Bulshit only a dream

scoobydoobyBUY

June 18th, 2006, 03:57 PM

If there is an aerial what's it for?

Morrismarina

June 18th, 2006, 09:03 PM

It's for a TV.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 18th, 2006, 11:52 PM

a television?

Morrismarina

June 18th, 2006, 11:56 PM

No.. ...a transvestite.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 19th, 2006, 10:44 AM

Seriously, who will benefit from this aerial? I doubt that the intention is simply to provide Torch residents with a few tv channels.
If it is a transmitter, who will transmit? local tv stations? local radio? the cia?

jo_da

June 19th, 2006, 11:33 AM

Morrismarina, may I suggest that your LED screen is non-existent, pure fantasy! have you been smoking opium?

Now, where did this come from? I checked through everything on their website and brochure, and called their sales line. Everything seems to indicate that the LED will be there.

Do you have any evidence to support that there won't be an LED there or are you just speculating? If you are speculating, then are you doing this on some solid basis or are just annoyed with DS and so come in here to annoy us as well?

scoobydoobyBUY

June 19th, 2006, 11:46 AM

jo_da please do not be angry.
As I mentioned I don't know for sure. All I know is that it was not mentioned to us, we were told about an aerial, and I don't recall seeing a DS statement anywhere that there will be an LED, can you please let us know where exactly you have seen the statement?

doctor dubai

June 19th, 2006, 09:59 PM

the mysterious mark stott could be any of us.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 19th, 2006, 11:36 PM

Could it be that The Torch is designed to house a major transmission facility for Dubai, TV stations, radio stations, mobile phone transmissions etc?

See this article on 4 Times Square, NYC: http://beradio.com/features/radio_times_square_antenna/

Morrismarina

June 19th, 2006, 11:41 PM

It's so when TT is built, Mark Stott can listen in to all those people slagging DS off....and come down and beat you all with a big stick....so you'd better watch out Scooby. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

jo_da

June 20th, 2006, 10:51 AM

I've seen the renders featuring the LED display. It was also mentioned in the article above and by salespeople on the phone.

I didn't hear anything about an antenna, and have not heard the rumour by anyone other than Scooby.

I enjoy these forums for being objective and because some of the people who come here do present some information they heard from legitimate sources. I just hope they dont turn into an area where people just voice speculation based on fiction.

Gorilla

June 20th, 2006, 11:22 AM

maybe the promised new render will clear things up. Anyone chasing DS for it?

scoobydoobyBUY

June 20th, 2006, 12:43 PM

I think you are right, the render will help, but the 'top hat' will apparently be similar to what already exists. As I spoke to DS just now the impression I have is that there will be a tall cylinder with a type of spiral on the top, which will be lit up similar to what you see in the existing renders (which do -not- show LED displays). The 'aerial' apparently may not in fact be an aerial but an 'artistic' aerial to complement the design with possibly no other function. LED displays or rather newer display technologies are being researched, but such ideas are not yet set in concrete.

doctor dubai

June 20th, 2006, 06:16 PM

if it's set in concrete it might be too heavy.

samadov2000

June 22nd, 2006, 12:01 PM

How many 1Br, 2 BR, 3, 4...PH in this project? not total but exacetlly - anybody knows?

thedubailife

June 22nd, 2006, 01:14 PM

^^ Stop asking on here contact the developer for the details. Only saying becasue this is your 2nd post and you asked the same question on Iris Blue Thread.

Thanks

yecabel

June 22nd, 2006, 09:37 PM

any news in regard of what will be in front of TT?

doctor dubai

June 23rd, 2006, 06:30 PM

no news is good news

Dubai_Steve

June 23rd, 2006, 08:30 PM

until the news finally arrives. Can not understand why this is taking so long for announcment.

Krazy

June 23rd, 2006, 08:33 PM

There are a couple more emaar complexes in Marina that havent been announced yet. So have patience, it's normal. When they are ready to sell units.. they will announce it. It all depends on the market, how many units of existing emaar properties like park island, quays, marina promenade etc they have sold already, dealings with banks for financing options etc.... so my advice would be not to wrry about it.. what has to be built there will be built eventually

yecabel

June 23rd, 2006, 09:51 PM

fair enough.

i just hope that whatever will be built, will not block views from TT.

DS promised me amazing views of the marina, no matter what that lot will be used for. They have assured me on several phone calls not to worry.

only time will tell.

Krazy

June 23rd, 2006, 11:10 PM

funny how they can assure when they dont know what's going to be built in front of TT... and have nothing to do with the vacant plot... :weird:

doctor dubai

June 24th, 2006, 11:48 AM

the upper marina will be a spectacular place to live, view or partial view. don't worry.

Naz UK

June 28th, 2006, 01:18 AM

More updates from the Dubai Select website:

http://i5.tinypic.com/15z02ep.jpg
Excavation and anchoring works continue.

http://i4.tinypic.com/15z03fa.jpg
Boring of the 1200mm piles continues.

http://i4.tinypic.com/15z057d.jpg
Concreting of the 1200mm piles.

http://i4.tinypic.com/15z06s4.jpg
Excavation level of -3.4 m.

Timeline:
10-06-06 – Excavation up to -3.4m DMD complete (95%)
01-06-06 – Double U-Channel, section F with anchors complete
30-05-06 – 1200mm shoring piles completed
28-05-06 – 2nd layer anchoring commenced (50% complete)
26-05-06 – Double U-Channel, section E with anchors complete
12-05-06 – Preparation, drilling and installation of 7 Deep wells for dewatering

Krazy

June 28th, 2006, 01:34 AM

great updates.. and great news - 95% of excavation completed! Now let's start the piling :cheers:

dubaiflo

June 28th, 2006, 05:12 PM

This one was quite fast, launched almost one year ago and already piling ... ;)

Naz UK

June 29th, 2006, 10:12 AM

^^ stop it, both.

pointless, boring and not constructive.

and the torch won't be delivered two years from now.

Very true. It is boring and pointless, but he doesn't seem to get it. I ONLY attacked developers like DAMAC, not individuals. Ashka just seems to not like the truth and seems hurt, so his only resolve is to attack the purveyor of the bad news about Damac. He should channel his efforts to either try and put Damac on the straight line, or get his money back.

With regards to the Torch and 2 yrs delivery time... Flo, firstly, there is absolutely no evidence to support its non-completion in 2 years. Everything is going according to schedule at the moment. Now, if you're using previous experience with other developers, then yes, you may have an argument that the Torch could be a delivered a little later than June 2008, as it seems most developers do go beyond their initial expected deadline. However, that is only an assumption, and until i hear anything concrete otherwise, e.g. a big delay in piling, etc, then I'm gona go with June 2008. Unless you have some factual information to the contrary.

malec

June 29th, 2006, 12:04 PM

I'd say 3 years.

1: First of all, it's still a good while before it even starts rising.

2: This is a supertall not just any tower, it's similar in height to the john hancock centre, aon centre, bank of china, etc. and they're not just any towers.

3: As seen already it takes ages to kit out the interiors

arfie

June 29th, 2006, 12:49 PM

the latest it will complete by is December 2008 otherwise Dubai Select face paying huge penalties to their customers and so does the Construction firm who are developing the Torch.

I met with Dubai Select last friday they are very confident of completion in June 2008 and have a very good team in place to make sure everything goes well.

canada2uae

June 29th, 2006, 12:50 PM

any idea about interiors, or the facilities other than the pool and the gym

Mistermark

June 29th, 2006, 01:34 PM

Regarding the expected completion date, I emailed Dubai Select about 10 days ago, before making the first lump-sum payment on my 3rd apartment in the Torch, asking them if there had been any change in the expected delivery date and they indicated that there hadn't and they're still on course for June 2008.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 29th, 2006, 02:17 PM

If you guys & gals have not got the project timelines then I suggest you ask Dubai Select for this.

Then you will be able to see for yourselves if the project in on schedule instead of ridiculously relying on the gospel according Dubai Select every few weeks.

Naz UK

June 29th, 2006, 02:37 PM

^^ That doesn't make sense. Relying on Dubai Select's information is exactly the same as referring to Dubai Select's timeline, isn't it? :weird: I posted the up-to-date timeline with the latest pictures above. But the rest until completion states a June 2008 finish. The only thing that will stop this is unforseen circumstances, the same as most other tower delays.

Rider

June 29th, 2006, 02:47 PM

OK so factless speculating about timelines is allowed but investment talk isn't - think i've got that, great!

canada2uae

June 29th, 2006, 02:58 PM

what about some milestones from DS then, like when they will have the parking ready, the structure ready, the facade ready....etc, just so we can judge if we will move to the TT on time

Naz UK

June 29th, 2006, 03:00 PM

Well the first milestone was that piling would begin in June 2006. And that is spot on.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 29th, 2006, 03:29 PM

I was told that piling was about to start, in January! I guess June starts with the same letter so that might have been a genuine mistake.

So NAZ U.K., you have sent historical data, thanks, but is there any chance you could send everybody a list of milestones and dates until completion, i.e. people can move in? e.g. date construction above ground commences, 10th floor constructed, 20th, 70th, interiors complete, people can move in dates?

Also do you know people who have already taken legal action against Dubai Select, or are about to? I will provide contact details shortly in case people need to contact us.

dubaiflo

June 29th, 2006, 11:26 PM

^^ <-(all the above) Samir, do ur work.

scoobydoobyBUY

June 30th, 2006, 03:43 PM

Seriously, allegations of fraud in this matter relating to false advertising in the U.K. would generally be directed against Dubai Select U.K., even though buyers have signed a contract with a different company, a UAE company "Torch Select Ltd.". In case you are not aware the contract doesn't ever mention "Dubai Select (the U.K. agent company)" or even "Dubai Select LLC (UAE company)". In fact the Dubai Select related solicitors I spoke to in the UAE were confused as to where "Torch Select Ltd." came from. What is Dubai Select LLC v. Torch Select Ltd? Do Damac buyers sign a contract that does not mention Damac anywhere?

The Torch contract is effectively owned by Dubai Select U.K. I doubt that any buyer ever communicated with "Torch Select Ltd in the UAE" the company with whom they signed the contract, directly??? !!!

Any sign of the new render promised by DS? Or expected milestone dates over the next 2(+) years?

zee

June 30th, 2006, 06:23 PM

i wanna see that! do u have a clip or anything?

Morrismarina

June 30th, 2006, 08:24 PM

Scooby what's the number of the apartment you're buying ???

yecabel

July 2nd, 2006, 05:28 AM

apparently balconies are to be 1m wide and 4m long. if you buy any of the upper apartments, you get two balconies, one in the living room and one in the bedroom.

Morrismarina

July 2nd, 2006, 09:34 AM

The double balconies only apply to the one beds at the top section of the tower, the new ones that were slotted in between the three beds.

yecabel

July 2nd, 2006, 04:46 PM

Regarding the legal procedings against Dubai Select and the allegations of fraudulent advertising particularly concerning the corner balconies, please contact me as follows:

mary@jeenterprises.com

check your contract (if you have one),
and look at clause 9.2:
the buyer acknowledges that the seller may change vary or modify the plans, finishes and equipment comprised in schedule 1 and the Outline Specification.

the contract is also under UAE law, and not English law.

However, i am feeling positive about this project and i can't wait to see this building ready.
we should all be happy, the building is in a great location, and from the present render, the torch looks amazing.

yecabel

July 2nd, 2006, 05:48 PM

from DS website:

"What warranties and assurances are there in respect of this development?
The detailed proposed plans for the Torch have been submitted to Emaar and have been approved by the Dubai Marina Review Panel (DRP), giving the go ahead to Dubai Select LLC to commence development. Emaar will continue to supervise the construction of this development through to completion to ensure that the overall aesthetic and technical integrity of Dubai Marina as a master development is maintained. Torch Select has entered into a contractual commitment with Emaar to substantially deliver the project as planned before disbursing any of its interest in the plot, and effectively therefore honour their contract for your individual unit.

What is the timetable for construction of this development?
Piling commenced on the site in February 2006 within the year. Above-ground construction will commence in 2006 with completion timetabled for mid 2008.

What leisure facilities are there within the tower?
The fifth floor of the development is a leisure deck comprising heath club, sauna and spa facilities for the use of all property owners. The outdoor deck includes pools for both adults and children. Naturally there will be numerous restaurant bars within the building and the wider development offering food and beverage menus to suit a range of tastes and occasions.

Is there internet service provision at the Torch?
High speed Internet, telecoms and standard satellite packages in the Torch (not SKY) are provided by DICT www.telecom.dic.ae. Unusually, WWW content at Dubai Marina is uncensored. Dubai Select will be also be launching an optional deployed audio and visual product to all subscribers which will be similar to emirates airlines ICE package. "

is the ICE package something that most developers are offering? Or is it something exclusive?

If it is to the same standards of the one of emirates airlines, it is definitely something to look forward to.

doctor dubai

July 2nd, 2006, 05:53 PM

VEEZEE

July 2nd, 2006, 05:56 PM

If guys here actually want to get some information about TORCH and D Select they should dig into ARCHIVES of Torch and see some posts by Al Million in the first few pages.......

The plans have actually been changed... DS reputaton is suspect.... if your visit the Archives I need not say more

By the way, ENGLAND got booted out of the FIFA World Cup!! I'm sorry for NAZ!

doctor dubai

July 2nd, 2006, 06:01 PM

VEEZEE

July 2nd, 2006, 06:06 PM

It is not even confirmed how many floors will Torch have?!

scoobydoobyBUY

July 2nd, 2006, 06:59 PM

check your contract (if you have one),
and look at clause 9.2:
the buyer acknowledges that the seller may change vary or modify the plans, finishes and equipment comprised in schedule 1 and the Outline Specification.

the contract is also under UAE law, and not English law.

However, i am feeling positive about this project and i can't wait to see this building ready.
we should all be happy, the building is in a great location, and from the present render, the torch looks amazing.

Yecabel, for your information Dubai Select is a U.K. company subject to U.K. laws and stands accused of fraudulent advertising in the U.K.

The contents of the contract (which is effectively owned by Dubai Select U.K. Ltd.) and the fact that the contract is with a UAE company Torch Select Ltd. under UAE law is a different matter.

scoobydoobyBUY

July 2nd, 2006, 09:00 PM

We have the latest render of The Torch from this month's (July 06) edition of "A Place in the Sun" !

See http://www.jeenterprises.com/torch_latest_render_july06.jpg

It certainly looks like fantastic news as all apartments will have great views, and I am tempted to buy another apartment with great views of the marina.
I am a little concerned though that the render only shows the 1st 10 floors.

yecabel

July 2nd, 2006, 09:04 PM

Tractor

July 3rd, 2006, 12:05 AM

You can get addresses for UK companies here: http://www.companies-house.gov.uk/

Krazy

July 3rd, 2006, 01:17 PM

At the request of forumers, I will give this thread one more try. I have spent a while cleaning up rubbish posts and getting rid of certain people we can do without. Please maintain respect for everyone by not posting rubbish and not going overboard with "what's your apartment size? what's my balcony size" questions as this really creates a big mess in the thread and is of no interest to anyone other than you (the investors).

Morrismarina

July 4th, 2006, 12:56 AM

Well done Krazy...many thanks.... you're a top guy.....let's hope going forward everybody keeps only to Torch construction issues.

ragga

July 4th, 2006, 10:41 PM

Amo urbem

July 6th, 2006, 09:35 PM

I would like a construction update, please?

AltinD

July 9th, 2006, 06:59 PM

08/07/2006

http://i6.tinypic.com/1zey0zm.jpg

http://i6.tinypic.com/1zey1jc.jpg

The progress seams slow there ^^.

It seams everybody at Dubai Select and their contractors, have taken their tea cups, coffe mugs or even popcorn buckets, and are having the time of their lifes, watching the history being made "live" on The Torch thread in Skyscrapercity.com :tongue2:

Naz UK

July 9th, 2006, 11:03 PM

Work has been progressing at quite a pace actually, if you compare it to many other construction sites that began in Jan/Feb 06. Another metre or so since I posted pics earlier in June.

dubaiflo

July 10th, 2006, 12:02 AM

^^ another metre? :weird:

exacavation should be finished, they are doing soil and piles testing..

Naz UK

July 10th, 2006, 12:16 AM

The last pics I posted were from the beginning of June. I was referring to the apparent difference in depth between the pics I posted and Altins'.

DUBAI-Boomtown

July 10th, 2006, 04:15 AM

Thanks! :)

The stupid poster are delete!!! :bash: :hahaha: :banned:

Stephan23

July 10th, 2006, 03:49 PM

All these supertalls in the 'Big Block' will start at the same time. That's great!!!

Naz UK

July 10th, 2006, 03:59 PM

^^ which is very good news, especially if they're all completed around the same period.

Stephan23

July 10th, 2006, 04:15 PM

You can see them rise at the same time. Very boring, I know :D:D

DUBAI-Boomtown

July 10th, 2006, 04:42 PM

LET`S GET IT STARTED !

Dubai_Steve

July 11th, 2006, 12:15 PM

New Torch render ? (do not have high res version)

http://i6.tinypic.com/1zn6crr.jpg

Chad

July 11th, 2006, 01:10 PM

Shit!!!

I love that Chandelier crown of the old design!!! :(

Stephan23

July 11th, 2006, 01:16 PM

New one is not bad!!! :okay:

Dubai_Steve

July 11th, 2006, 01:17 PM

The new roof looks like a huge Modesh is trying to go down the chimney to deliver presents.

thedubailife

July 11th, 2006, 02:04 PM

I think the new one looks a little better design wise. But it maybe angle of render it actually looks thinner at the bottom of the tower. It's a little hard to totaly compare

autocad_lover

July 11th, 2006, 02:27 PM

Krazy you will have to accept democracy and freedom and accept the results of the investment poll.

If you don’t accept democracy and freedom I am going to form a coalition of wiling with as a mission to bring democracy and freedom to your ass. While one will rock your ass with his cock the other will put his cock in your mouth

thedubailife

July 11th, 2006, 02:44 PM

^^ Didn't know they had computers in mental asylums

NeilP

July 11th, 2006, 02:59 PM

MODS, this has to stop. Now on many threads.

yuyi

July 11th, 2006, 03:04 PM

MODS, this has to stop. Now on many threads.

It will stop when krazy step down as a moderator and not one second before. I am using an automatic script and even if there are 10 moderators it will not help. The only solution is for krazy to step down.

Ok see you in 10 min for know I’ll let the script post 20 more posts.

malec

July 11th, 2006, 03:52 PM

It's only ben burj being himself.

dubaiflo

July 11th, 2006, 04:10 PM

that new render looks like shit, the tower lost its style and special features.

Dubai_Steve

July 11th, 2006, 04:48 PM

^^ agree, now looks like a commie block similar to marina 101 but without any style.

Gorilla

July 11th, 2006, 04:59 PM

Ok see you in 10 min for know I’ll let the script post 20 more posts.

sad case! :evil:

malec

July 11th, 2006, 04:59 PM

New Torch render ? (do not have high res version)

http://i6.tinypic.com/1zn6crr.jpg
What I liked about the old one was that glass going up in a sort of spiral around the side

Krazy

July 11th, 2006, 05:04 PM

the new design makes it look like emirates crown ... the bottom half that is... sorry i dont like it.. the old design was unique

Naz UK

July 11th, 2006, 05:16 PM

Definitely prefer the old render to the new one. kinda got used to it. Not to say the new design won't grow on me but I think the old design was ascetically better.

Dubai_Steve

July 11th, 2006, 05:31 PM

Might look better in the high res version. Can someone contact DS as ask for the full size render? Seems strange that they are still showing the old one on their website!?

Rider

July 11th, 2006, 05:32 PM

I also prefer the old version. The 'tapered' effect as you head to the top was quite unique.
The old version looked great and the new version looks good IMO.

Dubai_Steve

July 11th, 2006, 05:45 PM

Noticed that DS are selling fractionals now. Must be struggling to sell all the units.

Naz UK

July 11th, 2006, 05:52 PM

I think the high-res render will look much better, and the more I look at it, the better the new design looks..don't know why...however, still stand by the fact that I like the old render better!!!

Dubai_Steve

July 11th, 2006, 05:54 PM

Khatib and Alami are no longer listing the Torch on their website. Does that mean the new design is not by them ?

Jonathan Vaughan

July 11th, 2006, 05:57 PM

As requested, please find the high resolution render of The Torch, Dubai Marina. The design is in line with the recent architectural refinements developed in order to gain efficiencies and improve the ergonomics of individual apartments, designed by the supervisory architects, National Engineering Bureau.

http://www.stottgroup.co.uk/media/images/Torch-430x900.jpg

AltinD

July 11th, 2006, 06:20 PM

^^ Looks much better, however the old design was more unique.

Dubai_Steve

July 11th, 2006, 06:21 PM

^^ If Emirates (Al Marsa) tower and Emirates Crown had a child this is what it would look like. Completely different to the original Torch but will look impressive when done I am sure. Much nicer than Marina Heights at least.

dubaiflo

July 11th, 2006, 06:27 PM

looks ok but much worse than the old one.

K&A is no longer involved?

Dubai_Steve

July 11th, 2006, 06:34 PM

Seems that K&A are no longer involved. Even though the website and contracts say they are. Someone should update Emporis. Will owners get issued new contracts with the new render on the front cover and new floor plans and so on? The ones originally signed for are now void.

Dubai_Steve

July 11th, 2006, 06:39 PM

DS should inform customers about the change otherwise there will be hundreds of lost people wandering around the marina asking where the Torch is when they go to collect their apartments.

Mistermark

July 11th, 2006, 06:50 PM

Actually I think I prefer the look of the new one. It seems sleeker and more modern to me.

That said, I agree with whoever said it also looks narrower at the base. This surely can't be so, can it, or the apartments wouldn't all fit in?

Krazy

July 11th, 2006, 07:27 PM

i liked the old one.. tapering design made it stand out... also the center facade had a uniqe feel to it

Morrismarina

July 11th, 2006, 08:01 PM

Noticed that DS are selling fractionals now. Must be struggling to sell all the units.

Could you explain this please.....sorrry I must be a bit thick.....what are fractionals and how do you know DS are struggling :?

Dubai_Steve

July 11th, 2006, 08:09 PM

^^ http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=368157&page=2

DUBAI-Boomtown

July 11th, 2006, 10:57 PM

The new render looks better - but the building is not very nice!

When did the construction start? Maybe next month?

go,go,go,go,go The Torch! You must grow!

yabadabadoo

July 12th, 2006, 12:04 AM

Khatib and Alami are no longer listing the Torch on their website. Does that mean the new design is not by them ?

We spoke to Khatib & Alami and it seems they were 'dumped' at the end of 2005 or in their words the project was handed to someone else!

So would it not be fair to say that the current design is not really by Khatib & Alami as their design has been modified. We are in discussion with Khatib & Alami about this strange advertising where their name is still used, or maybe someone else can explain why the DS website clearly says "Designed by Khatib & Alami" instead of "Original design by Khatib & Alami".

Also whilst the new render doesn't look too bad, has The Torch been moved back out onto it's own little island with fantastic views returned to all the investors?

For me I wonder if a close up would reveal huge (cheaper) structural walls going up the corners of the building as opposed to the far more aesthetic structural walls and balconies that appeared in the other design (I won't say old design until there is no trace of Dubai Select advertising it).

Morrismarina

July 12th, 2006, 12:39 AM

We spoke to Khatib & Alami and it seems they were 'dumped' at the end of 2005 or in their words the project was handed to someone else!

So would it not be fair to say that the current design is not really by Khatib & Alami as their design has been modified. We are in discussion with Khatib & Alami about this strange advertising where their name is still used, or maybe someone else can explain why the DS website clearly says "Designed by Khatib & Alami" instead of "Original design by Khatib & Alami".

Also whilst the new render doesn't look too bad, has The Torch been moved back out onto it's own little island with fantastic views returned to all the investors?

For me I wonder if a close up would reveal huge (cheaper) structural walls going up the corners of the building as opposed to the far more aesthetic structural walls and balconies that appeared in the other design (I won't say old design until there is no trace of Dubai Select advertising it).

Come on Scooby at least at least if you're comming back to this forum under a different name try and be little bit clever please, and not make it so obvious with comments like:

"it's own little island"
"balconies that appear in other design"

It's a dead give away.....we've heard all this shit so many times from you before, this thread is NOT about your DS investment issues. This thread is for CONSTRUCTION posts only.
:bash:

malec

July 12th, 2006, 12:55 AM

Sorry but for some reason I can't get into the section where I can ban this fucker (ben burj) so you'll have to bear with his posts until jan can do something about it. He's posted about 200 to 300 of these posts today.

Dubai_Steve

July 12th, 2006, 12:55 AM

A better new and old design comparison

http://i2.tinypic.com/1zoeo0w.jpg

Dubai_Steve

July 12th, 2006, 01:02 AM

^^ At least their is a proper base now. Looks like a triple height lobby with retail units around the base.

Naz UK

July 12th, 2006, 01:19 AM

HMMM...its a close call. And just noticed the very high up 1 beds, floors 70-odd and upwards!!! :eek2:

I was offered one of these but didnt take it!

thedubailife

July 12th, 2006, 10:51 AM

^^ Looks similar to other towers now, altought the new design does maybe make it look sleeker. But since the original design pretty much lead to the tower being sold out. I don't understand why you'd change the design not like you need to sell any more.

yabadabadoo

July 12th, 2006, 10:56 AM

Come on Scooby at least at least if you're comming back to this forum under a different name try and be little bit clever please, and not make it so obvious with comments like:

"it's own little island"
"balconies that appear in other design"

It's a dead give away.....we've heard all this shit so many times from you before, this thread is NOT about your DS investment issues. This thread is for CONSTRUCTION posts only.
:bash:

Morrismarina you are ruining the thread trying to bar any meaningful discussion about the Torch. Now you are not even interested in who designed the current render, you are not interested in the fact that a close-up (if it ever became available) would reveal significant differences in the corner balcony support walls going up the building (have you no useful comment to make about this?), and you are not interested in the fact that the render seems to show The Torch on it's own island which as we all know could not be further from the truth! a render showing a more realistic setting would be far more useful for everybody (except sales) and far less deceptive.

Dubai_Steve

July 12th, 2006, 11:18 AM

But since the original design pretty much lead to the tower being sold out. I don't understand why you'd change the design not like you need to sell any more.

In order to maximize profits and reduce costs of course. They wanted to add more units but now it seems they can not sell them (partly because of the dropping market) and have to resort to fractionals and are left with an inferior looking product.

Also I am guessing that the fist drawing was more of a concept than a final construction render. When it came to building it was probably too expensive to construct that way so they dumped K&A.

malec

July 12th, 2006, 11:27 AM

Actually looking at the 2 renders there is something I like about the new design, it does seem to have an OK base compared to the absolutely hideous one it had before

Dubai_Steve

July 12th, 2006, 11:30 AM

Agree about the base that is what makes me think the original was just a concept.

jo_da

July 12th, 2006, 12:25 PM

I doubt they can't sell units and resorted to fractionals... It seems like they are only selling a few units as fractionals. Given they need 25 customers for each units, it looks to me like an expensive way to get rid of unsold apartments.

thedubailife

July 12th, 2006, 12:59 PM

arfie

July 12th, 2006, 01:15 PM

In order to maximize profits and reduce costs of course. They wanted to add more units but now it seems they can not sell them (partly because of the dropping market) and have to resort to fractionals and are left with an inferior looking product.

Well I'm not sure you can say the market is dropping because Dubai Selects new development the Point is selling pretty well. I think their efforts are now on selling this development maybe the reason why the final units in the Torch havent sold yet.

jo_da

July 12th, 2006, 01:58 PM

^^ Expensive for cutomers, but more money for DS, yeah it may take a while to sell each unit completley, but at the end of the day everyone is happy 25 customers have a place in the sun and DS made a little more profit

I agree with you that DS would be making a bit more money but also making Dubai affordable for more people. It looks like a win-win product - and the way the market is going.

What I meant to say earlier is that I doubt they would sell fractionals just to sell out a few units. Setting up a whole new product definately cost them in various ways (sales training, consultancy, marketing...) and they would have found easier methods to sell these few units.

What is probably happenning is that they came up with this business idea and are testing the water with a few units they had either been left with or specifically set aside for the purpose.

yabadabadoo

July 12th, 2006, 02:32 PM

I agree with you that DS would be making a bit more money but also making Dubai affordable for more people. It looks like a win-win product - and the way the market is going.

What I meant to say earlier is that I doubt they would sell fractionals just to sell out a few units. Setting up a whole new product definately cost them in various ways (sales training, consultancy, marketing...) and they would have found easier methods to sell these few units.

What is probably happenning is that they came up with this business idea and are testing the water with a few units they had either been left with or specifically set aside for the purpose.

Does anyone know if the seller is still the same UAE company called "Torch Select Ltd." with just a PO Box number and no real address in the contract, and no mention of Dubai Select anywhere in the contract? I still don't understand what Torch Select Ltd. really is. This makes me very nervous.
DS have refused to do something about this....

dubaiflo

July 12th, 2006, 03:02 PM

i do think the new design looks much worse, it completely lost its originality.

yecabel

July 12th, 2006, 07:32 PM

:weirdo:

anyway!
DS has updated the website with the new render and is now stating that the national engineering bureau have developed the original architectural concept from award winning K&A.
to be honest with you guys, now it all make more sense.
from the previous render, i could not really understand where my unit was, but now i can see it clearly.
i do agree with most of you that the old render looked much more unique.

Dubai_Steve

July 12th, 2006, 07:49 PM

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 10:36 AM

^^ yep, now they are using both old and new renders and saying concept by K&A. So we were correct in saying that this was just a concept drawing and NEB needed to redesign in order to do a practical construction.

err.. I beg to differ. You should see the fax of a detailed floor plan than DS sent out last June / July 2005 which fooled one customer.

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 10:45 AM

^^ yep, now they are using both old and new renders and saying concept by K&A. So we were correct in saying that this was just a concept drawing and NEB needed to redesign in order to do a practical construction.

In my opinion DS should deliver what they have been telling investors they would get and what they thought they were getting when they decided to purchase. Not just take the money and subsequently cheat the investors by delivering a cheaper alternative.

thedubailife

July 13th, 2006, 11:27 AM

How can you sell a tower on a concept design and the the actual one is different. Yeah new render is better is some aspects like basement but lost other aspects of the original design.

What next Infinity with no twist....that would be practical construction too.

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 12:21 PM

In our opinion the 2 renders differ too much to be considered as the same building.
Interestingly, on the cover of the contract there is a picture of what some people are calling the old render. The fact is that it is not an 'old' render as Dubai Select have actually been using it all along, even in this month's 'a place in the sun' magazine, and it has only disappeared from their website in the last 24 hours, after a year of sales.
The expression "concept by Khatib & Alami" in our opinion is still misleading but posssibly -and I say possibly- the expression "original concept by Khatib & Alami" could be more accurate.
The render setting in our opinion is also very misleading as it gives the impression that the Torch is almost totally isolated on a beautiful little island with fantastic views from every apartment just like the Burj al Arab. The render of The Point is a bit more realistic.

Does anyone agree? Morrismarina will no doubt launch another hate campaign and try to get us banned for a truthful, fair and honest opinion regarding this construction. Which reminds me, Dubai Select are resorting calling and threatening people on this forum with legal action unless they say nice things only.

Do not be surprised to see an article in the Sunday Times.

Gorilla

July 13th, 2006, 12:23 PM

I don't think its right for the design/look of a tower to change so significantly after 80% of the units have been sold, no matter if its better or worst!

thedubailife

July 13th, 2006, 12:50 PM

^^ Can't disagree with that.

Naz UK

July 13th, 2006, 12:51 PM

I don't think its right for the design/look of a tower to change so significantly after 80% of the units have been sold, no matter if its better or worst!
No matter if its better??? Oh, so if DS called you up and told you that your 1-bed is now in actual fact a 4-bed penthouse, you'd threaten legal action if they didnt restore it to the orginal 1 bed?

I think the key here is if the new design has taken away anything of real value from the original. E.g. has it reduced your apt. size? (some have gotten bigger thanks to this new design!!!), are you now located in JLT instead of the Marina? Is the retail floor in the Torch now being proposed to be used as a brothel? etc.

Its only cosmetics really. And yes, I still still still think the old render looked better. But thats the key word "looked". Nothing inside has changed as far as I know (other than some ppls apts have gotten bigger and better).

I'd be so much more pissed off for issues like construction delays, bad interiors, leaking pipes, etc. Cosmetics doesn't really matter too much to me, unless the new design looked "hideous". The new design doesn't look bad at all. Its just different to the original design. Better or worse is purely a matter of opinion.

canada2uae

July 13th, 2006, 01:00 PM

naz
i think that the clients who purchased 80% of the tower is entitled to know, we all bought based on the render and the location, now since the outside render is changed, and i think this change will move the torch to a non signature tower, also no body now know what will be built in front of the torch, so again what did we purchased based on then???

thedubailife

July 13th, 2006, 01:11 PM

Naz UK

July 13th, 2006, 01:13 PM

What do you mean the new design will change it to a non-signature tower? What will be built in front of the Torch is a non-issue here. Anyone who bought in the Torch for reason based on expectation/speculation/wishfullness re: what will be built in front of the Torch has only themselves to blame. Every Torch investor always knew of the risk of uncertainty with regards surrounding buildings, its the nature of off-plan developments.

Can't speak for everyone else..but here's what I based my purchase on:

Needed a 1-bed apt. in a fairly recognisable "signature" tower, preferably super-tall, facing the sea (I knew the risk of having Princess/Emirates Crown/Le Reve, but took a shot knowing i'd get some view between the Pr. and LR due to road), chose the Marina due to its prominance and prestigeous status as residential/retail/recreational basis of "New Dubai", also proximity to beach and beach clubs, great location for potential property value appreciation/good sustained rental yields. Wasn't looking to make a quick buck on resale due to diminished market in this area, needed long-term investment, in for the long haul therefore value appreciation/depreciation doesn't matter as long a rental income covers costs....

So there you go... 1) Redesign doesnt affect me that much 2) ? in front of Torch doesnt affect me coz im sea-facing 3) Torch still signature and still supertall 4)On target for completion 2008, its still in the Marina and still fits all the criteria I needed. Unless that changes, I'm not worried at all. :happy:

Gorilla

July 13th, 2006, 01:16 PM

naz can u try to put ur point across using less words, i fell asleep halfway through reading it!

I still think the older render was nicer and more unique and not too happy about the change.

Naz UK

July 13th, 2006, 01:16 PM

It’s like showing a baguette sandwich and actually giving you a soft roll sandwich still a sandwich might even have more filling too but it’s not the same is it.

My point is pure and simple the developers and thats ALL of them should finalise everything before they come to market and what you see is what you actually buy and get. And this is a Dubai wide issue like the Crown towers losing there Crown might not be an issue for some but it does change the look of the tower completely.

Anyone with 1 ounce of knowledge in the international property market will tell you that this is the nature of off-plan buying. Yes, it is more risky than buying in existing developments.

Here's your choices: Dont buy offplan, buy within resale market in completed projects. OR, buy off-plan but do thorough research first, consider probability, what is least likely/most likely scenario, take a little gamble, hope it pays of, but if it doesn't don't be too dispondent coz you knew what u were getting into when u made the decision to buy off-plan. That is all there is to it.

Naz UK

July 13th, 2006, 01:17 PM

naz can u try to put ur point across using less words,
No!!! :D

Rider

July 13th, 2006, 01:26 PM

If you're really not happy with the new render - ask DS for a refund and accept the fact that you took a risk that didn't pay off by signing a contract allowing DS to make whatever changes they want.

I've bought an apartment in the TT and was well aware of this risk and while I prefer the old render I still think the new render is quite good - certainly not as bad as some are making out.

So what if marketing illustrations show TT in an idyllic setting without any other towers in sight - many off-plan towers are marketed this way. Just do your homework and check out what really will surround the property before making a decision.

Dubai_Steve

July 13th, 2006, 01:33 PM

I am not happy with the new design because it no longer looks like a signature tower, instead it looks like every other tower in that area. One reason for purchasing in the Torch would be that it stood out from the crowd and so renting would be easier option with all the competition on that area. The old design demanded your attention.

I am dissapointed that Dubai Select have not informed customers of the change to the design and that they have to resort to forums to find out such news.

http://i2.tinypic.com/1zoeo0w.jpg

Dubai_Steve

July 13th, 2006, 01:41 PM

The render setting in our opinion is also very misleading as it gives the impression that the Torch is almost totally isolated on a beautiful little island with fantastic views from every apartment just like the Burj al Arab.

I do not agree with this point since the purpose of a tower render is to see the tower and not all the buildings around it. If you put towers in front you would not be able to see the tower you are buying. I would not want to see a render in which you can only see half of the tower. Also it is unknown what will be in front. But you should be aware that there are building plots all around the Torch before purchasing which to be fair DS did point out.

Naz UK

July 13th, 2006, 01:50 PM

^^Steve, I knew about this redesign months ago coz i've been in regular contact with DS since day 1. I'm sorry but if i'm gona spend £150k with a developer, then I will not wait for them to contact me, rather i'll be pestering them regularly with a view to seeking out any news related to the tower.

Dubai_Steve

July 13th, 2006, 02:01 PM

^^ Disagree, DS have no hesitation in sending regular mailing on other shite about spanish property. A simple mailing informing customers with the new tower redesign render would be common courtesy.

malec

July 13th, 2006, 02:02 PM

I do not agree with this point since the purpose of a tower render is to see the tower and not all the buildings around it. If you put towers in front you would not be able to see the tower you are buying. I would not want to see a render in which you can only see half of the tower. Also it is unknown what will be in front. But you should be aware that there are building plots all around the Torch before purchasing which to be fair DS did point out.
Maybe you shouldn't put towers in front of it but you can draw the towers to the side and behind in order to show the environment it's in.

For example look at this render of the trump tower in chicago

http://img316.imageshack.us/img316/8690/trump12tx.jpg

Dubai_Steve

July 13th, 2006, 02:06 PM

^^ yes but you hav'nt done the marina heights tower render yet malec. Where would they buy the render from. :)

Still I would prefer to see the tower on its own and not with towers next to it. Agree that a second render would be nice showing context but not for the main render. But it is not the tower architects job to show context.

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 02:19 PM

well for me the problem it that the render -does- show context, and a very false one at that.
we noticed that the trees are not the same in the new render, they are not palm trees?

Dubai_Steve

July 13th, 2006, 02:37 PM

^^ Trees would be stock graphics, just pasted here and there to stop the render looking bland. The fact that they are different trees probably just means that it was NEB that did the new render rather than K&A. Problem is no body except for Emaar know what to put in front of the Torch so NEB just pasted some tree there for now.

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 02:55 PM

We have also noticed that it is not just the trees that have changed, the building has changed as well

Naz UK

July 13th, 2006, 02:58 PM

^^ Unlike you. You are still the same old per..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

malec

July 13th, 2006, 03:37 PM

well for me the problem it that the render -does- show context, and a very false one at that.
we noticed that the trees are not the same in the new render, they are not palm trees?
That's what I mean, you can have renders with or without context but if you do show it in the proper environment, that doesn't mean that the surrounding towers have to be rendered perfectly but show that there is something, even a simple square would do.

Renders showing context:

http://tinypic.com/jsdkqt.jpg

http://www.gowealthy.com/realestate/uae/dubai/timeplace/images/timeplace_marina.jpg

A render not showing context:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3463/prism1zn.jpg

A render showing very false context:

http://www.pmc-homes.com/Other_Areas/Dubai/Marina_Diamond_III/The_Princess_Tower/location-big_pt--.jpg

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 03:50 PM

Malec I am dead impressed, but then we would only expect quality from a Corkman.

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 04:19 PM

Malec you wouldn't have another picture like just like the last one, but showing what the current expected context for The Torch will be?

malec

July 13th, 2006, 04:24 PM

What's there to be impressed about, you suggesting I made these or something? :D

They're actually all real renders.

Anyway, I don't think the torch render is that bad since it's the norm. There are some real bad ones though, especially that princess tower one with all the fake green. Now this one is something I made. If developers want to show context then what you have to do could be as simple as this just as long as it gives a rough idea of reality.

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6315/torch9bs.jpg

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 04:32 PM

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 04:38 PM

What's there to be impressed about, you suggesting I made these or something? :D

They're actually all real renders.

Anyway, I don't think the torch render is that bad since it's the norm. There are some real bad ones though, especially that princess tower one with all the fake green. Now this one is something I made. If developers want to show context then what you have to do could be as simple as this just as long as it gives a rough idea of reality.

Malec, sorry for troubling you again, but I forgot to ask where you came across that last render of The Torch?

Krazy

July 13th, 2006, 04:43 PM

malec you forgot a potential high rise between the torch and marina heights :D

dubaiflo

July 13th, 2006, 04:43 PM

Malec that last render is starting to be very interesting.
What I am also very interested is e.g. the view from the 16th floor, is it possible to have fantastic views of the Jumeirah beach and the Palm?
I'm in touch with Emaar to see if they can help.

^^ oh really ,it should be quite easy for someone really interested to get an idea of his view when he wants to.

i mean did u ever have a look beyond this thread?

http://i2.tinypic.com/orpchy.jpg

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=332478

you should be able to get an idea along with some photos...

http://tinypic.com/jsdkqt.jpg
the point is, those renders are still designed in such a way that the tower REALLY sticks out, u can't blame any developer or architect if they do so.

if DS would draw a rendering of it's tower in 2010 with surroundinsgs, they would not have sold so many apartments so easily.

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 04:56 PM

Thanks Dubaiflo, we saw that a while ago it's very impressive.
What I was looking for now is an impression of the view towards the beach / Palm from The Torch, e.g. I am having difficulty imagining how much of a gap there will be between the towers towards the ocean, and exactly how the Palm will appear from the sea facing / media city facing apartments.
Or perhaps the view will be totally blocked as the seaside towers are so close?

Krazy

July 13th, 2006, 05:04 PM

expect the worst... best way to go

AltinD

July 13th, 2006, 05:20 PM

^^ Which means ... NONE! :lol:

Naz UK

July 13th, 2006, 05:20 PM

Or how about - be realistic in your expectations.

yabadabadoo

July 13th, 2006, 05:25 PM

Well another way of looking at this is to ask what the view of The Torch will be like when we are cutting through the surf on our jetskis. Does anyone have an impression of the expected skyline as would be seen from a jetski or from one's villa on The Palm? will it be possibly see the Torch clearly / at all through the gaps?

Krazy

July 13th, 2006, 05:42 PM

this is getting annoying now... :sleepy:

dubaiflo

July 13th, 2006, 07:46 PM

well better than the mortgage crap.

depending on the angle u will see the torch from the sea.

but the angle is really small ;)

Morrismarina

July 13th, 2006, 08:00 PM

Wow....that's a great render Malec......just one thing though...could you take a few dates out from those palm trees otherwise Yabadabdoo (previous know as his (or her ?? ) royal purpleness "ScoobydoobyBuy" who was banned but came back which completely defeats the point of banning anybody !! ) will accuse you of being economical with the truth. :) :) :) :) :)

Seriously though.......great renders. Thanks.

malec

July 13th, 2006, 09:35 PM

lol, it seems a good few people here haven't ventured beyond this thread :D

six453 made a good 3D map of the marina but too bad he's not very active. I tried to get him to send me the model so I could do a bit aswell but he never replied.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=347567&page=12&pp=20

You can see the torch in these pics. There's an extra tower to the right of infinity which doesn't exist though, that's presuming damac don't go ahead with ocean heights II (and I doubt it, they seem to be having enough trouble with the first one). The top floors will have a decent sea view by looking over grosvenor house and jbr but the bottom floors won't/

http://i5.tinypic.com/11ltu1f.jpg

Dubai_Steve

July 13th, 2006, 09:58 PM

Man I so wish I had that sketchup file. We could put the camera in scooby's apartment and see his view and really wind him up.

Morrismarina

July 13th, 2006, 10:40 PM

That's a great 3d map Malec.

The problem is we can't put a camera in a mock-up of YabadabaScooby's apartment because he refuses to tell us which one he's buying. And this is because he (or may be "she" as I think Scooby may be a woman judging by an earlier e-mail address that was posted) is not really buying one..... it's all a front so that he can run down DubaiSelect on the pretence that he's a purchaser. :weird: :weird: :weird:

Victoria and David

July 13th, 2006, 11:26 PM

Sorry but going back to previous posts, I am an investor in TT and thought I had done my homework. I flew to Dubai to inspect the plot and knew of the building plots surrounding it but bought Marina facing as I was assured by a Dubai Select representative that planning permission had only been granted for a 12 storey tower and that this would not change. I foolishly believed this and given that Emaar are still not prepared to disclose what is being built on the plot I do not know how I could have discovered any different. When I asked DS why I had been told this they did not know as they said that they had always been aware that the plot had permission for a minimum of 16 floors anyway! I only discovered from this forum that there was an issue with the potential height of the Emaar development.

I was told by a DS representative that there would be an indoor pool - this was a key factor to me having a child and knowing how the summer heat makes it impossible to be outdoors in the day. My contract even specifies the finishes to the pool walls and ceiling (strange for an outdoor only pool). Again I find out from this forum that there is no longer an indoor pool!

I discovered from this forum about the increase in the number of apartments due to an internal redesign - by the time I contacted DS to ask about this all 1 beds had been sold. I have never been informed about the changes to the exterior design by DS - SSC again spread the word.

Whilst I totally accept the risks of buying off plan and that there may well be changes, as an investor is it too much to ask that I am informed of any changes in design/surrounding area without having to rely on everyone here? When I have spoken to DS to ask why this is the case all they can say is that they have not informed me of changes as they do not know what I have been told by ex employees.

So thanks SSC forumers - without you I'd be completely in the dark, and to all potential investors - Caveat Emptor.