http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/corrnd/PennCentre.jpg


Downtown Towers In Works
Developer pitches huge project with hotel buildings of 28, 17 stories

When revelers leave a Pacers game or Conseco Fieldhouse concert now, they likely wander back to their cars via a mostly dark Pennsylvania Street.

That will change in the next couple of years if J. Greg Allen has his way. The south-side developer is pitching a massive project along Pennsylvania that includes hotel towers—one 28 stories, the other 17—to be built on property now used mainly for surface parking.

“We want to be part of the reinvention of downtown that has happened over the last several years,” Allen said. “It’s not a wing-and-a-prayer to do development in downtown anymore.”

The project, tentatively dubbed Penn Centre, would stretch from Maryland to Georgia streets along Pennsylvania. Plans call for as many as six restaurants and a 550-space parking garage.

Allen would not provide a project price, but a local developer estimated the cost would range between $75 million and $100 million.

He plans to incorporate the façade of the historic Omega Building at 29 E. Maryland St. in the project that stretches south to Georgia Street, in front of the Harness Factory loft apartments.

The project also includes air rights over Chesapeake Street, but it excludes a small parking lot at the corner of Maryland and Pennsylvania used by the adjacent Hampton Inn for valet parking. The hotel owners also own that property and refused to sell it to a potential competitor.

Allen has closed on all the other properties.

Since the project is in the Wholesale District, it requires approval from the Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission. As part of that process, Allen has promised to preserve and renovate the Omega Building façade; he plans to work it in as part of a nine-story structure fronting Maryland Street.

The developer is working with locally based Browning Day Mullins Dierdorf Inc. on final design plans.

Allen also is negotiating with the city for tax incentives. Indianapolis’ economic development director, Jim Garrard, confirmed that a property tax abatement is on the table, but said it’s too early to discuss details.

“I think it’s a great project for that area, and we’re excited about it happening,” Garrard said.

The entire project, including both towers, would have nine floors in common. The first two levels would house up to six restaurants, ranging from casual to fine dining. The third through ninth floors would be used for parking.

Along Pennsylvania Street north of Chesapeake Street, plans call for a hotel and condo tower that would rise a total of 28 stories, giving downtown’s southeast quadrant its tallest building. And south across Chesapeake Street, a 17-story tower would house another hotel.

The two towers would share one level with an indoor pool and fitness area.

For the tallest tower, Allen has applied to Starwood Hotels to run a 240-room Le Méridien. The upscale, traditionally European brand would be a direct competitor to the 241-room Conrad Indianapolis. It would be only the sixth U.S. location for the Le Méridien brand and the only one in the Midwest. A recent weeknight rate at the Le Méridien San Francisco was going for $229.

The hotel would occupy the tower’s 10th through 22nd floors. The top five floors would have 64 condominiums, ranging from 1,200 to 6,000 square feet. No price range was available.

Allen is proposing to introduce the Aloft brand as the other hotel. Also a Starwood property, the so-called “lifestyle hotel” brand aims for the feel of a boutique hotel and is a lower-priced offshoot of W Hotels. A recent weeknight stay at a W Hotel in Chicago was going for $299, but no Aloft hotels were available to book.

The Aloft hotel should be a “home run” in Indianapolis, thanks to what should be competitive pricing, said Rob Hunden, of hospitality consultant Hunden Strategic Partners.

But he said the Le Méridien could be tougher to pull off because of its similarity to the Conrad, which also is vying for a shallow base of high-dollar visitors. The Conrad struggled to fill rooms in its inaugural year, with occupancy numbers around 50 percent.

“I would look at the performance of the Conrad in downtown to see if there’s a deep enough market for two hotels at almost the exact same size,” Hunden said. “We just don’t have that deep of a corporate market that can afford that type of a room price.”

The hotels also will be up against a flood of new rooms coming on the market, including a 1,300-room hotel project that includes a 1,000-room J.W. Marriott convention hotel.

“It’s going to take a few years to rebound for the market to absorb the new rooms,” Hunden said.

The restaurant space in the project should be marketable, thanks to a shortage of quality space downtown, said Steve Delaney, a broker with Sitehawk Retail Real Estate who focuses on restaurants.

Chicago-based Hostmark Hospitality Group has been hired to manage the hotels. They would be the firm’s first properties under management in the Indianapolis market.

Hostmark Vice President of Development Mark Heisler said more than 100 employees would be needed between the two hotels.

“We love the location, size and scope of the project,” Heisler said. “It makes a lot of sense.”

Allen hopes that enthusiasm is contagious as he negotiates for city support. The precedent certainly is there. The city contributed $24 million to help build the $100 million Conrad, and recently agreed to give $48.5 million toward the $250 million JW Marriott hotel complex. But Allen’s project is more likely to get a tax abatement than a cash investment.

He wants to begin construction this year and finish the work in about 18 months.

“The project has the potential to create a real destination for this side of downtown,” he said. •

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/ablerock/Picture5.jpg
(A special thanks to ablerock for this one)

http://chicago.ibj.com/repository/ibj/2007/07/02/36/Img/Pc0360300.jpg
(A map as to where this will be built)

http://blog.ibj.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/tower-hotel1.jpg
(The pathetic parking lot will this will be built)

http://blog.ibj.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/penn-centre0001_2.JPG
(The prelimanary b&w rendering of this)

So feel free to post any news or oppinions you have on the Penn Centre! :cheers2:

Also, this will mainly cater to the Fieldhouse which oughta make it more successful!

Does anybody have any insider info for these towers? o_O

Didn't you already start a thread for this project?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=454600

You should really just rename the original thread.

Didn't you already start a thread for this project?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=454600

You should really just rename the original thread.

I couldn't find it dude, besides this one is more detailed! :cheers:

once that area is filled, I'm positive the corner will be filled in in a matter of monthes.

Where we can find more renderings of this perhaps?

http://www.oongawa.com/dt/penn_centre.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/ablerock/Picture7.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/ablerock/Picture9.jpg

I posted these shots in the Indianapolis thread already, but they're useful here too. The top picture is looking west. In the bottom picture, west is the top of the photo.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/ablerock/eastskylineforpenncentreb.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/ablerock/penncentresiteaerialc.jpg

Thanks for the replies guys!

grr, they need to fill up virginia avenue!
A diagonal street through a block in such a historical manner is not common, it must be respected!
Infill is desperatly needed downtown.

grr, they need to fill up virginia avenue!
A diagonal street through a block in such a historical manner is not common, it must be respected!
Infill is desperatly needed downtown.

Virginia avenue is getting its share of development though. The Jefferson Plaza building is supposed to be converted into condos and have a restaurant with outdoor seating. Also, the 500 Festival is moving offices into a renovated building on the block that is also supposed to have street level retail.

grr, they need to fill up virginia avenue!
A diagonal street through a block in such a historical manner is not common, it must be respected!
Infill is desperatly needed downtown.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i118/coleman_nicole/inb.jpg?t=1190121588

This is such an awesome picture of INB at Virginia Ave. We have lost so many beautiful structures. The sculpture at the very top above the entrance is located near the flagpoles at Indiana Square. They are in bad shape though.

Virginia avenue is getting its share of development though. The Jefferson Plaza building is supposed to be converted into condos and have a restaurant with outdoor seating. Also, the 500 Festival is moving offices into a renovated building on the block that is also supposed to have street level retail.

Also the Broadbent Building is coming along nicely.

Also the Broadbent Building is coming along nicely.

Of the Broadbent Building progress, 3 Mass Ave, etc. etc. :cheers2:

OK, you twisted my arm. I will bring the digital camera to work with me tomorrow.

OK, you twisted my arm. I will bring the digital camera to work with me tomorrow.

Thank you, thank you MobyHead! It is greatly appreciated. Especially since it is hard to see progress of DT Indy all the way up in Michigan. :lol:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i118/coleman_nicole/inb.jpg?t=1190121588

This is such an awesome picture of INB at Virginia Ave. We have lost so many beautiful structures. The sculpture at the very top above the entrance is located near the flagpoles at Indiana Square. They are in bad shape though.

That building was so beautiful!
Whats actually funny(rather sad) is that I was looking through archives of other cities, and Indianapolis hasent had it nearly as bad as many other cities with urban renewal.
The statues should be repaired. It seems as if though the city does not take into concern that relics of previouse palace like gems are rotting away.

That building was so beautiful!
Whats actually funny(rather sad) is that I was looking through archives of other cities, and Indianapolis hasent had it nearly as bad as many other cities with urban renewal.
The statues should be repaired. It seems as if though the city does not take into concern that relics of previouse palace like gems are rotting away.

I've been trying to stress this point to most of our forumers for awhile... But yes, it we might feel pretty shitty that we've lost some real gems. Yet quite honestly we've faired A LOT better than most other cities our size! :)

Hopefully in October at the next IHPC meeting, they'll release better, detailed and more accurate renderings. I'll be a happy man then, not to mention when this things break ground.

The IC hotel not being picked earlier this year i cant help but hope AND pray that the more detailed Penn Centre renderings turn out as lovely as the IC ones looked! Like, is it just me OR is there a legit possibility that this Penn Centre can turn out real, REAL nice? Or is that just a trite pipe dream in itself? o_O

The Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission postponed until Oct. 3 taking any action on J. Greg Allen's massive hotel project along South Pennsylvania Street across from Conseco Fieldhouse. The project had been on the commission's agenda for Sept. 5, but several interested parties requested a continuance to allow time to learn more about the project.

Allen, who is a prominent south-side developer, has pitched a project that would include two hotels, as many as six restaurants and a 555-space parking garage.

Tentatively dubbed Penn Centre, it would stretch from Maryland to Georgia streets along Pennsylvania. The site is in the Wholesale District, a locally designated historic area in which new projects and changes to building exteriors must be approved by the Historic Preservation Commission.

Most of the site is surface parking. Allen plans to restore the facade of the only building on the site-the historic Omega Building at 29 E. Maryland St.-and incorporate it into the project.

May someone elaborate if this is a good thing or a bad thing? o_O

The Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission postponed until Oct. 3 taking any action on J. Greg Allen's massive hotel project along South Pennsylvania Street across from Conseco Fieldhouse. The project had been on the commission's agenda for Sept. 5, but several interested parties requested a continuance to allow time to learn more about the project.

Allen, who is a prominent south-side developer, has pitched a project that would include two hotels, as many as six restaurants and a 555-space parking garage.

Tentatively dubbed Penn Centre, it would stretch from Maryland to Georgia streets along Pennsylvania. The site is in the Wholesale District, a locally designated historic area in which new projects and changes to building exteriors must be approved by the Historic Preservation Commission.

Most of the site is surface parking. Allen plans to restore the facade of the only building on the site-the historic Omega Building at 29 E. Maryland St.-and incorporate it into the project.

May someone elaborate if this is a good thing or a bad thing? o_O


Neither, really. It's just business. The IHPC has never dealt with a project of this size, so they naturally want to know as much as they can about it. It also can be a positive for Allen and the developers; they can tidy up loose ends and provide the clearest and most persuasive presentation.

Neither, really. It's just business. The IHPC has never dealt with a project of this size, so they naturally want to know as much as they can about it. It also can be a positive for Allen and the developers; they can tidy up loose ends and provide the clearest and most persuasive presentation.

You hit the nail right on the fucking head buddy... The project is moving forward.

The only thing that would seem logical for the IHPC to do is to inforce that the parking garage has brick cladding.
Thats really the only thing I can think of(but then again it is the IHPC).

Perhaps It Was A Mixed Blessing That....
Maybe it was a mixed blessing that the IC hotel was NOT built! For three reasons in peticular. And in no peticular order.....

1) To me, it seems the Penn Centre wouldn't have been as likely if the IC was built! I may be mistaken, but it just seems like the Penn Centre would've most likely been called off...

2) We still have Pan Am Plaza, which means we can still find a more sustainable AND suitable development for that area! As opposed to an over-sized 44 story tower! That would've been pretty fucked...

3) From "The Luke" we wouldn't have been able to see our "striking skyline" if we had the IC blocking our view!

So what do y'all think? Am i right about these things? Is the JW not THAT bad of an idea after all? Should we actually feel blessed the IC was not built?

Bad news all... Planned groundbreaking for Penn Centre has been pushed back to January. The property will be open for parking until January 1st.

Not a terrible thing really, It's only a couple extra months.

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the IHPC or the city or any government entity. This is entirely an internal scheduling decision. It does NOT bode ill for the project. Adjusting schedules a month or two in either direction is common practice in the industry.

Commence whining.

^^ well, I dont care if groundbreaking is next summer.
I am just want it built.

That i was at some uber secret meeting regarding the Penn Centre. Dont ask me why i'm so messed up i actually dreamed about it, but i did... It was really, REALLY weird but cool at the same time! Like in the dream it seemed a lot more artsy looking than it really is, perhaps it was just some wishful dreaming? Anywho, i'll be really freaked out if it turns out like i dreamed it to be. X_X :nuts:

That i was at some uber secret meeting regarding the Penn Centre. Dont ask me why i'm so messed up i actually dreamed about it, but i did... It was really, REALLY weird but cool at the same time! Like in the dream it seemed a lot more artsy looking than it really is, perhaps it was just some wishful dreaming? Anywho, i'll be really freaked out if it turns out like i dreamed it to be. X_X :nuts:

I would like to see clearer renders, with heights of both hotels. Wish that Browning was not the architect. I only remember dreams of of hot actresses from the 40's, and model Helena Christiansen. Prefer these over buildings.

I would like to see clearer renders, with heights of both hotels. Wish that Browning was not the architect. I only remember dreams of of hot actresses from the 40's, and model Helena Christiansen. Prefer these over buildings.

Or am i sorely mistaken? o_O

Or am i sorely mistaken? o_O

Yep, that was Browning. As well as The Hyatt, 101 west Ohio, that one with the neon thing on it. Capital Center, those 2 by 465, Landmark, and the other close to it. There list goes on and on. They had some play in 300 N.Meridian, but really their designs don't impress me.

Yep, that was Browning. As well as The Hyatt, 101 west Ohio, that one with the neon thing on it. Capital Center, those 2 by 465, Landmark, and the other close to it. There list goes on and on. They had some play in 300 N.Meridian, but really their designs don't impress me.

Speaking of which, i really happen to like those two buildings! For i found a rad ass picture of the two at night & they looked really nice! Perhaps that's just me? :)

That i was at some uber secret meeting regarding the Penn Centre. Dont ask me why i'm so messed up i actually dreamed about it, but i did... It was really, REALLY weird but cool at the same time! Like in the dream it seemed a lot more artsy looking than it really is, perhaps it was just some wishful dreaming? Anywho, i'll be really freaked out if it turns out like i dreamed it to be. X_X :nuts:

I had a nightmare once that Lockerbie, Chatham arch, Mass ave, and Wholesale all burned down. :nuts:

I had a nightmare once that Lockerbie, Chatham arch, Mass ave, and Wholesale all burned down. :nuts:

That's straight f*cked up!! I would literally die i mean cry if that happened! :ohno:

That's straight f*cked up!! I would literally die i mean cry if that happened! :ohno:

I know! That would be like a huge chunk of early 19th century, and civil war architecture! I would be depressed. :nuts:

I know! That would be like a huge chunk of early 19th century, and civil war architecture! I would be depressed. :nuts:

I'd be ALMOST as depressed as when i heard the JWub was picked over the IC! :bash:

^^ I was depressed when the market square towers fell through!
They were so beautiful! Why? Why??????? lol

^^ I was depressed when the market square towers fell through!
They were so beautiful! Why? Why??????? lol

Keep in mind, they haven't really fallen through. The developers didn't back out (yet), the city has just delayed their decision on a project until after the election.

Or are you talking about earlier proposals (i.e. not Kosene or Mansur) ?

Keep in mind, they haven't really fallen through. The developers didn't back out (yet), the city has just delayed their decision on a project until after the election.

Or are you talking about earlier proposals (i.e. not Kosene or Mansur) ?

Yeah the earlier ones.
They would have been so awesome.. :ohno:

Speaking of which, i really happen to like those two buildings! For i found a rad ass picture of the two at night & they looked really nice! Perhaps that's just me? :)

Capital is nice, about as nice as they get with Browning. Look their stamp is all over downtown, I hope Penn is nice, but that is what it will be nice. I am in the future interested in outside architects designing downtown buildings. I hope Browning does not get a stake in the Twisting Torso, Marquis!
Sorry if I sound like a downer, I think that someone with a vision will actually get to design a downtown building one day. Hopefully an Asian, German, even Australian firm. More to designs than Brownings!

Browning was part of the Conrad also. If some border could at least been put on that building, rails at the top.... But I guess that design was fine with the hotel owners, etc... Indy deserves better architecture!

As an out-of-towner, I'll be real interested to hear how the discussions go at the IHPC meeting Weds. night. If any of you Indy folks are planning to be at the meeting, it would be great to get an update on how things moved along. If you can take pictures of any updated images shown, that would be great too. Thanks.

As an out-of-towner, I'll be real interested to hear how the discussions go at the IHPC meeting Weds. night. If any of you Indy folks are planning to be at the meeting, it would be great to get an update on how things moved along. If you can take pictures of any updated images shown, that would be great too. Thanks.

A video of the meeting will probably be posted online.

As an out-of-towner, I'll be real interested to hear how the discussions go at the IHPC meeting Weds. night. If any of you Indy folks are planning to be at the meeting, it would be great to get an update on how things moved along. If you can take pictures of any updated images shown, that would be great too. Thanks.

I'll be there. Cameras are not allowed in the City County Building. I'll describe what I see there tomorrow ASAP.

Not only will the post a video on-demand viewing, they also stream the IHPC meetings live from http://www.indygov.org/eGov/Cable/home.htm

Here's a direct link to the video (http://indianapolis.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?publish_id=4). It's on channel 16 WCTY and airs live at 5:30pm, so anyone interested can watch tomorrow. It's in the middle of the IHPC's agenda for Oct 3, so that particular section probably won't happen until after 6 at least. If you're extremely interested to know what happens, I'd watch from the beginning to make sure you don't miss anything.

Thanks Ablerock and Cityfan for the links. I'll check out your thoughts as you post them and the web connection of the meeting as soon as I can. It would be great to see them get started on that project sometime early next year. It looked like the written comments from the IHPC that I read about earlier had some good suggestions that should help improve the project without slowing things down too much.

I'll be there. Cameras are not allowed in the City County Building. I'll describe what I see there tomorrow ASAP.

Not only will the post a video on-demand viewing, they also stream the IHPC meetings live from http://www.indygov.org/eGov/Cable/home.htm

Here's a direct link to the video (http://indianapolis.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?publish_id=4). It's on channel 16 WCTY and airs live at 5:30pm, so anyone interested can watch tomorrow. It's in the middle of the IHPC's agenda for Oct 3, so that particular section probably won't happen until after 6 at least. If you're extremely interested to know what happens, I'd watch from the beginning to make sure you don't miss anything.

Not that it matters because the video is a better option, but there was a plan to allow cameras back into the CCB. As of 20 September it was awaiting a judge's approval. I haven't seen a follow-up on this.

Indy Star story (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070920/LOCAL19/709200525/1195/LOCAL18):

Residents who want to record sound or shoot pictures of the City-County Council will soon get their chance when county officials relax their prohibition on recorders and cameras inside the City-County Building.

...there was a plan to allow cameras back into the CCB.

That would be awesome. I was very disappointed not to have my camera at August's IHPC meeting. I sat right behind the developers of Penn Centre. They had several large-format back-up renderings and I could have easily snagged huge pictures. I was so tempted to grab them all and run, but that would've been the shortest trip to lock-up ever!

http://blog.ibj.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/penncentre0001_1.JPG

:ohno:

http://blog.ibj.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/penncentre0001_1.JPG

:ohno:

What don't you like about it IndiexInxIndy?

What don't you like about it IndiexInxIndy?

Too reminescent of the Raddison (Shearton now) as well as the "2nd terrace" not being green too... I do however dig the one green roof, the angles, the purple roof on the Aloft! I also like plenty of other more subtle features about it too... Now, if we can get clearer more precise renderings ESPECIALLY of the base that would be nice! Overall, i'd say i'm pleased yet there's still plenty of room for improvement! :cheers2:

Have any retailers or restruants been booked for any retail space yet?

Have any retailers or restruants been booked for any retail space yet?

Somewhere in the process over the last few months I got the impression that they were in talks with specific businesses. Who those are, only time will tell.

Hopefully McDonald's.

Somewhere in the process over the last few months I got the impression that they were in talks with specific businesses. Who those are, only time will tell.

Hopefully McDonald's.

I trust you were kidding. :bash: Hopefully something with some "Euro" flair! That would be quite lovely... :cheers:

Somewhere in the process over the last few months I got the impression that they were in talks with specific businesses. Who those are, only time will tell.

Hopefully McDonald's.

We do need a McDonald's downtown. I'm a sucker for that shit.

They still had the McDonalds in the Hyatt last I checked. I used to stop in there every now and then when I needed a Big 'n Tasty or some salty french fries.

Somewhere in the process over the last few months I got the impression that they were in talks with specific businesses. Who those are, only time will tell.

Hopefully McDonald's.

McDonalds? Well if they do it better be one of Mick's better designs!
But yes... I lust for mcdonalds.. *drool*

Somewhere in the process over the last few months I got the impression that they were in talks with specific businesses. Who those are, only time will tell.

Hopefully McDonald's.

They can do better then Mcdonald's! Any chain should be a less popular a little less everywhere chain. Maybe more healthier, there are so many stores and restaurants chain or not, that can be part of the buildings retail.

They can do better then Mcdonald's! Any chain should be a less popular a little less everywhere chain. Maybe more healthier, there are so many stores and restaurants chain or not, that can be part of the buildings retail.

I wonder if any euro-department stores are bidding for the lot.
Indy has some great clothing stores, but I always feel it is lacking.:)

I wonder if any euro-department stores are bidding for the lot.
Indy has some great clothing stores, but I always feel it is lacking.:)

Scandinavia has some cool ones, however I don't know if they expand in the states.

Scandinavia has some cool ones, however I don't know if they expand in the states.

That would be cool if one of them opened up in Indy for the first time in the states.
A friend of mine said Japan has some amazing clothing stores that have alot of character and class.

We need more chain restaurants downtown like I need a hole in the head. >:C

Hopefully McDonald's.

ablerock is an idiot.

ablerock is an idiot.

0_o

That would be cool if one of them opened up in Indy for the first time in the states.
A friend of mine said Japan has some amazing clothing stores that have alot of character and class.

The whole Scandinavian-Germanic influence is wonderful the low rise-Midrise buildings, and the different stores over there, and incorporating both together. I obviously have seen alot of their architectural influence in all kinds of towns in the states, and some small independent stores, just not chain off the top of my head.

H&M is based in Sweden - downtown Indy already has one of those.

The whole Scandinavian-Germanic influence is wonderful the low rise-Midrise buildings, and the different stores over there, and incorporating both together. I obviously have seen alot of their architectural influence in all kinds of towns in the states, and some small independent stores, just not chain off the top of my head.

Yes. Not the same thing, but if someone could construct half timber structures and make them look original, I would totally have one of those houses.

Anyone heard anything new?

Anyone heard anything new?

Still set for January, but there will be an abatement asked for... Ballard is mayor...

Still set for January, but there will be an abatement asked for... Ballard is mayor...

Can't they ask for an abatement while Peterson is still in office? If not, how would not getting an abatement affect the project?

Can't they ask for an abatement while Peterson is still in office? If not, how would not getting an abatement affect the project?

I would hope so.. Perhaps MSA can do the same thing. Lack of an abatement can kill any project this size.

I would hope so.. Perhaps MSA can do the same thing. Lack of an abatement can kill any project this size.

Peterson can get abatments approved on these projects before he leaves, but they need to get busy. However, Ballard does have the authority to yank projects when he takes office.

Peterson can get abatments approved on these projects before he leaves, but they need to get busy. However, Ballard does have the authority to yank projects when he takes office.

He will meaning significant development in Marion County over the next four years is a pipe dream.

He will meaning significant development in Marion County over the next four years is a pipe dream.

Republicans are traditionally pro business. Why do people think that Ballard will somehow be different? You would think yanking abatements would be a concern if a democrat got elected. Democrats are traditionally anti business and pro welfare. Did progress stop when Mitch Daniels got elected?

Ballard claims to be interested in what is best for Indianapolis long term. I think his text stated 10 to 50 years. Tax abatements are short term hurdles with long term benefit. If anything he would be more likely to support tax abatements since they provide greater long term gain for the city.

People have it completely backwards if they think having Ballard as mayor means and end to significant development. If anything having a republican mayor may bring in more development.

Hudnut was a republican. I am a huge fan of his then as well as now.

Was Hudnut the one that was responsible for getting us the RCA dome? I lived in Florida at the time when the dome was built.

Republicans are traditionally pro business. Why do people think that Ballard will somehow be different? You would think yanking abatements would be a concern if a democrat got elected. Democrats are traditionally anti business and pro welfare. Did progress stop when Mitch Daniels got elected?

Ballard claims to be interested in what is best for Indianapolis long term. I think his text stated 10 to 50 years. Tax abatements are short term hurdles with long term benefit. If anything he would be more likely to support tax abatements since they provide greater long term gain for the city.

People have it completely backwards if they think having Ballard as mayor means and end to significant development. If anything having a republican mayor may bring in more development.


Both parties are "pro-business", just that Democrats don't think gutting workplace regulations, lowering the tax rate for the wealthy, and decimating the environment are going to improve the economy.

Ballard rode a wave of anti-property tax furor all the way to City Hall.

The typical Republican stance towards development is let the private market dictate what is and is not built. No public funds should be used to determine the winners and losers.

Maybe the tax rate for the wealthy should be moved to 60%, or maybe even 80%. That would really give people alot of motivation to excel. While we are at it, lets lower the tax rate for the least productive, to encourage them to work less.

The wealthy already pay 35%. What do you think they should pay? All of the tax burden?

Maybe the tax rate for the wealthy should be moved to 60%, or maybe even 80%. That would really give people alot of motivation to excel. While we are at it, lets lower the tax rate for the least productive, to encourage them to work less.

The wealthy already pay 35%. What do you think they should pay? All of the tax burden?

The wealthy should be paying more taxes then lower class families who could use that money for far better use.

^^Yeah.... for their cigarettes, beer, and wide screen TV's?

I'm sorry... I'm being sarcastic. But I doubt the poor, given a few extra tax dollars in their wallet, will give up those vices in favor of actually putting food on the table, or purchasing health insurance for their children, or fixing the roof on their home... assuming they own a small home.

^^Yeah.... for their cigarettes, beer, and wide screen TV's?

I'm sorry... I'm being sarcastic. But I doubt the poor, given a few extra tax dollars in their wallet, will give up those vices in favor of actually putting food on the table, or purchasing health insurance for their children, or fixing the roof on their home... assuming they own a small home.

Wow, that is a very arrogant statement. You have been brainwashed into believing that poverty is a vice and indicative of poor character when nothing could be further from the truth.

Perhaps if you came down from your right-wing ivory tower and conversed with poor people you would discover that life for them is a struggle to make ends meet and provide for their families.

Maybe the tax rate for the wealthy should be moved to 60%, or maybe even 80%. That would really give people alot of motivation to excel. While we are at it, lets lower the tax rate for the least productive, to encourage them to work less.

The wealthy already pay 35%. What do you think they should pay? All of the tax burden?

It was at 70% prior to Reagan taking office. Rich people got along just fine before 1981. Now they are showering in money while income inequality has skyrocketed and the middle class is worse off now than it was 30 years ago.

Wow, that is a very arrogant statement. You have been brainwashed into believing that poverty is a vice and indicative of poor character when nothing could be further from the truth.

Perhaps if you came down from your right-wing ivory tower and conversed with poor people you would discover that life for them is a struggle to make ends meet and provide for their families.


Exactly. That is a stereotype. Like you said, most struggle to make ends meet, especially when you live in a rundown crime filled neighborhood, it just makes it harder for them, and raising taxes for them while the rich pay less is just plain stupid! :ohno:

hoosier..... It was at 70% prior to Reagan taking office. Rich people got along just fine before 1981. Now they are showering in money while income inequality has skyrocketed and the middle class is worse off now than it was 30 years ago.

I was still a kid around 1981. Unless you are one of the rich prior to 1981... and you did just fine, I'm not exactly sure how you can speak on behalf of "the rich". My parents were small business owners during that time and with all the taxation and regulations they faced, they found it hard to make ends meat. This is what I remember. If I'm not mistaken, during that time... mortgage interest rates were sky high, inflation was a problem, there were gas shortages, high unemployent as well as tons of other economic problems. The rich politician came up with fancy ways of sheltering their money, and found tax loop holes many which have been erroded away or closed off over the years after the 70's and 80's.

hoosier..... Wow, that is a very arrogant statement. You have been brainwashed into believing that poverty is a vice and indicative of poor character when nothing could be further from the truth.

Perhaps if you came down from your right-wing ivory tower and conversed with poor people you would discover that life for them is a struggle to make ends meet and provide for their families.

^^I knew I'd get yelled at for posting such a thing and rightfully so, it was a hateful thing to say in the heat of the moment. It was SARCASASM. I dont believe that ALL poor people spend their money on cigarettes, beer and widescreen TV's. However, it pisses me off when everyones solution is tax the rich more... when they are already paying the majority of the tax anyway. THAT IS NOT THE SOLUTION! Nobody suggested raising taxes on the poor and that is not an option. But, when you tax the rich you stifle their spending (which on goods and services could have increased sales tax revenues).... you stifle their charitible giving (cause the government takes everything and leaves little to give away)... and you stifle the reinvestment of their moneys into the stock market and recapitalization for research and development in the business world (again something that increases employment, wages, and thus tax revenue). There is NO INCENTIVE to work hard to try to make more money if the government is gonna take everything away. Last time I looked our core belief here in America is based off of Capitalism and the ability to rise above thru education, hard work, good ethics and even maybe a bit of good luck thrown in. If you wanna see the RICH hoard more of their money... just make sure to tax them more... and then you will see NO economic growth what-so-ever in the future.

^^ I dont think anyone said that the rich should be over-taxed, they should just pay more taxes then lower class people. It doesn't mean we should drain their pockets, but I think they can afford to pay a little more then the lower class.

boooring...

boooring...

I do like Helens new Dietrich picture, sets a calming mood...

I do like Helens new Dietrich picture, sets a calming mood...

I didn't even know who she was untill Mobyhead informed me.
I just liked it because it was so charming!

Abatements are essentially (time delineated) tax cuts. It's not like handing out the municipal credit card. I don't see any reason to believe that Republicans would be against them. In fact, if they toe the usual supply-side economics line, they should be in favor of abatements on large projects.

Abatements are ubiquitous, and I've yet to see them mentioned as a plank in any party's platform. There's been suggestion that they are awarded too generously (http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/2142.html), but no one's come out categorically against them, including Ballard. We'll just have to wait and see.

But I doubt the poor, given a few extra tax dollars in their wallet, will give up those vices in favor of actually putting food on the table, or purchasing health insurance for their children, or fixing the roof on their home... assuming they own a small home.

Was this bit sarcasm, too? I hope so, because it relies on some pretty horrifying assumptions.

I'm still itching for high-quality renderings.

Also, should this thread title be changed to approved, or are we still waiting on the MDC?

What is the status of this tower?

Last I heard still scheduled for January 2008 ground breaking

It hasn't gotten its tax abatement yet from MDC, right?

Last I heard the MDC wasn't granting any new abatements. Leaving that for the new administration. And no one knows what Ballard will do.

Will project move forward without a tax abatement?

Any updates? It's been awhile since I've heard anything new. If I remember correctly, there was a proposed ground breaking for this month.

As far as I'm aware it's still supposed to break ground this month.

As far as I'm aware it's still supposed to break ground this month.

I hope so. It will make me feel warm and fuzzy that this actually gets built. I've never had a great feeling that this one is going to get off the ground. Seeing some ground break will really be nice.

I hope it gets built. It is filling up a large chunk of empty space, and plus I think its the Omega buildings last chance of being properly re-used(not to mention its cornice restored).

Anything new on this yet?

I have a bad feeling it fell through.

Why do you have that feeling? It was an approved project. You think maybe they couldn't get financing? I'm wondering if this is the hold up for the Airport hotel as well.

Somebody posted on property lines that it was dead. No confirmation, but I haven't heard anything in some time. That can't be good.

From the IBJ Property Lines blog:

Construction won’t begin on the ambitious Penn Centre proposal for at least a few more months, but the project still is a go, said developer J. Greg Allen, who also is renovating Jefferson Plaza. Allen said his team is waiting on the Ballard administation. The new mayor has put a hold on most projects that are seeking city incentives. A meeting with the mayor is set for mid-March, Allen said. Plans call for two towers with two hotels, dozens of condos and up to six restaurants along Pennsylvania Street across from Conseco Fieldhouse. The developers had hoped to break ground in October 2007, then set a target of January. “Hopefully we’ll be moving again here real quickly,” Allen said.

http://blog.ibj.com/blogshell.asp?p=666

I hope this one goes through because another looks to be facing some big hurdles.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080306/BUSINESS/80306031

So, I am assuiming this is officially dead :( ? It would have been a beautiful project, perfect location, perfect density, nice hotel name etc. Oh well, too bad, atleast we still have the beautiful JW to look forward to in June!!

Yeah, I would go ahead and consider this dead and buried. Which is a shame too, seeing how nothing good seems to get off the ground here anymore.

From the IBJ Property Lines blog:

Construction won’t begin on the ambitious Penn Centre proposal for at least a few more months, but the project still is a go, said developer J. Greg Allen, who also is renovating Jefferson Plaza. Allen said his team is waiting on the Ballard administation. The new mayor has put a hold on most projects that are seeking city incentives. A meeting with the mayor is set for mid-March, Allen said. Plans call for two towers with two hotels, dozens of condos and up to six restaurants along Pennsylvania Street across from Conseco Fieldhouse. The developers had hoped to break ground in October 2007, then set a target of January. “Hopefully we’ll be moving again here real quickly,” Allen said.

http://blog.ibj.com/blogshell.asp?p=666

We haven't heard yet how the meeting between Ballard and Allen went have we?

I think there is still some hope for this project. I wouldn't count it dead just yet. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, at least.

We haven't heard yet how the meeting between Ballard and Allen went have we?

I think there is still some hope for this project. I wouldn't count it dead just yet. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, at least.

It seems with the type of business people involved, and local meetings that were going on, that this could move forward. Guess that the mayor has quite alot of power. Seems that politics would work this through, but Indy is different, and economics...

This project isn't dead at all.

At least it better not be.

Hopefully the meeting went well and we'll hear some news soon. That IBJ blog post is from late February and Allen said it would be at least a few months 'til they got back on track. It's barely been a month since he was interviewed. For all we know, the meeting with the Mayor was postponed. If we don't hear anything before the end of '08, I'll start wondering.

The project is absolutely not dead. If Ballard can come anywhere close to where Allen was with Peterson, it will still happen.

It has been over 2 months since the last post. Has anyone heard anything new related to this?

I love this Project it has to happen, its good density, two higher end hotel chains both of which currently have no locations here, and the location is superb!

It has been over 2 months since the last post. Has anyone heard anything new related to this?

Nothing official. Everyone's just waiting for news on this, along with the MSA site.

Sorry, but it is most likely dead.

^^^^ I agree... It is too bad but this tower is probably toast. It was an excellent project, and probably would have been my second fav right after the JW!

I wouldn't call it done just yet. Allen who is doing this currenty has his hands full with Jefferson Plaza. I would like to think that once he is further along with that, we'll hear some info on Penn Centre.

NOW, for MSA, that is dead.

I can tell y'all that the big guys are still using Penn Centre e-mail addresses. It's not dead, only sleeping. New Mayor and all that..

And Cory, we just closed on the "supersecret" downtown Washington street building that I showed you the preliminary designs on. The architects are coming up with the final designs for the refacade and additional story right now.

Tantalizing.

Please tell me you bought the "H&H Mart"....

Tantalizing.

Please tell me you bought the "H&H Mart"....

Nope, very close though.

Nope, very close though.

You going to give the people something nice to brag about?

I can tell y'all that the big guys are still using Penn Centre e-mail addresses. It's not dead, only sleeping. New Mayor and all that..

And Cory, we just closed on the "supersecret" downtown Washington street building that I showed you the preliminary designs on. The architects are coming up with the final designs for the refacade and additional story right now.

MOOOOOOCHIE!!!!!! GEEZ! :gossip: You're killin' us! :lol:

So is this project dead?

So is this project dead?

Haven't heard anything about Penn Centre for a while. Haven't heard anything from moochie at all, come to think of it. Anybody got any answers?

Regardless how good this project is, it's probably safe to say that if it was on shaky ground before the recent credit meltdown, there's probably next to zero chance they'll have funding for this anytime soon.

Regardless how good this project is, it's probably safe to say that if it was on shaky ground before the recent credit meltdown, there's probably next to zero chance they'll have funding for this anytime soon.

Although, the developer's other project across the street, Allen Plaza, seems to have gained new legs in recent months. What was once to be a humble rehab has changed into a more dramatic and contemporary design. I wonder if some funds have been diverted, if his investors decided to put some money into Allen Plaza as well? I don't think Penn Centre is dead-dead, just postponed for quite a while. It seems Allen has a vision for that section of the city and is excuting it as it is possible. Time will tell.

I don't think Penn Centre is dead-dead, just postponed for quite a while.

Maybe in the same boat as Cabellas? Kind of on hold until the economy recovers?

What is going on with the looks of Allen plaza?

Re. Allen Plaza: It's beginning to look like a nice open plaza area that is coming together - which fits well with all of the restaurants that now are surrounding that area: Morton's, the sports bar (used to be called "Coach's"), Adobo Grill, Fogo de Chao, Mo's place for steaks, and whatever Mr. Allen is putting in -- oh yeah - and Dunkin Donuts!! I would really love it if they put the old "1960's modern" fountain back on that plaza somewhere. I really liked its look. I hope Mr. Allen puts it back.

As far as the building itself, it seems to keep changing. Today I noticed they were taking off big pieces of limestone panels near the top of the building on the north side. Not sure why. The wall on the south side of the building has been completely opened up. Don't know if they'll be putting in big new windows - or what they're doing. Big windows don't make much sense though because the view to the south is of a big parking garage.

I just went onto property lines and checked out the renderings of allen plaza, kinda forgot about this project, but it reminds me; does anyone have pictures of the rennovations?? Is there even any work being done to the plaza, or was this just a dream never realized?

I would really love it if they put the old "1960's modern" fountain back on that plaza somewhere. I really liked its look. I hope Mr. Allen puts it back.

As far as the building itself, it seems to keep changing. Today I noticed they were taking off big pieces of limestone panels near the top of the building on the north side. Not sure why. The wall on the south side of the building has been completely opened up. Don't know if they'll be putting in big new windows - or what they're doing. Big windows don't make much sense though because the view to the south is of a big parking garage.

The second rendering should explain why they're stripping the facade from the building.

http://propertylines.ibj.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/allenplaza2.jpg

http://propertylines.ibj.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/allenplaza.jpg

Could one of the design-minded folks on this site tell me if there is a good reason why the glass on Scotty's Restaurant side of the building doesn't follow the same glass pattern as the rest of the building?

Could one of the design-minded folks on this site tell me if there is a good reason why the glass on Scotty's Restaurant side of the building doesn't follow the same glass pattern as the rest of the building?

Because the whole design is tacky and sucks?

Just a thought. ;-)

(I mean seriously, could someone please tell please tell these architects how to use sun-screens tastefully? They're sticking out from top of the building like a couple of graduation caps.)

Ok. I was just making sure it wasn't something that was above an unenlightened theatre major such as myself. :-)

What is it about the architecture in the city?We all have had our say about the shortcomings. However, Why is it so apparant in so many Indianapolis projects? Whatever the economy is whatever year, new or rehab?

http://www.ibj.com/allen-plaza-devel.../article/10995

Allen Plaza developer bullish on downtown, eager for next project
Cory Schouten
November 7, 2009

Naming his first downtown project Allen Plaza wasn’t just about pride for builder and developer J. Greg Allen.

He sees the $14 million renovation as a message to city leaders that he intends to build well and leave a lasting mark on downtown. Leaders already know as much on the south side, where Allen has been building some combination of homes, offices and retail centers for 30 years.

In a rare interview, Allen talked with IBJ about how he has managed to keep Allen Plaza on track during a nasty market for real estate development—a time when similar projects like 707 E. North St. are either in foreclosure or on ice. Most of Allen Plaza’s retail and office space is spoken for, and the first seven condos of a planned 31 will hit the market this month.

And Allen isn’t giving up on Penn Centre, a $135 million mix of hotels, condos and restaurants he proposed in 2007 for a stretch of surface parking lots along Pennsylvania Street across from Conseco Fieldhouse. He still owns the land and is working on a phasing plan that would have about half the development done in time for the Super Bowl in 2012.

“We’re disappointed the capital markets tanked on us and the project isn’t 70-percent complete already,” he said of Penn Centre. “We had 12 firms looking at a financing package in November 2007, and three months later no one would touch it.”

If Allen, 54, has proven anything with his namesake mixed-use building at 1 Virginia Ave., it’s that he may take a few years, but he can deliver.

Allen bought the sleepy Jefferson Plaza office building out of foreclosure in February 2005. Two years later, his team began gutting the outdated nine-story building and installing a modern glass façade. Local staple Scotty’s Brewhouse signed on to take the entire 12,000-square-foot first-floor space, giving the project an early boost.

“It’s one of those properties—if you’re a visitor, it’s a memory point,” Allen said. “That’s what we tried to do—building something we could be proud of.”

The three floors of office space already are about 70-percent leased. One of Allen’s companies, Allen Commercial Group, has moved its headquarters from Greenwood to about 8,000 square feet on the second floor. And Noble Roman’s Inc., the only tenant to stick around during the remodel, occupies another 8,000 square feet.

The project includes five floors of condos, including three ninth-floor penthouses. The first floor of condos is just about move-in ready. When Allen is ready to build out the penthouses, he’ll also add a planned “tower feature” atop the building’s northwest corner.

The residential entrance lobby features refinished African walnut from the former seventh-floor offices of Jefferson Life Insurance Co., along with a facial-recognition security system and a touch-screen building directory. The condos have a variety of high-end flourishes including California sliding doors, recessed lighting, custom cabinets and stainless-steel tile backsplashes.

Two units already are spoken for: Allen is taking one with an impressive corner view of Pennsylvania Street, and leasing director John Cunningham is taking another.

Prices range from $219,000 up to $489,000. An open house is tentatively scheduled for Nov. 19.

Allen is building out only one floor of condos at a time—a luxury he enjoys in part because he worked out a loan with no presale requirement with Columbus, Ohio-based Huntington Bank. He didn’t want to face the same fate as a failed condo development on the former home of Market Square Arena.

Revenue coming in from the building’s office and restaurant components also gives the company time to let the market absorb the condos.

“It’s a lot easier to sit on a building with income coming in,” said Cunningham, one of two leasing directors, along with Allen’s son, Greg W. Allen.

Completing the project in such a rough real estate market is a success story for both Allen and the neighborhood, said Ersal Ozdemir, CEO of locally based Keystone Construction, which owns the Majestic Building next door and is finishing up work on the 3Mass condo project with Halakar Real Estate.

Allen chooses projects carefully, is well-diversified and works hard, Ozdemir said.

“He’s done it all, and he understands the business well,” he said.

Timing also was a factor in the success of both Allen Plaza and 3Mass: The respective developers closed financing deals just before credit markets froze early last year. About 60 percent of 44 units in 3Mass have sold.

As for Penn Centre, Ozdemir won’t be betting against Allen.

“I wouldn’t mind looking at a nice building from my office instead of a parking lot,” he said. “I’m a believer if you have a lot of parking lots in a downtown, that can’t be a great sign.”

The Penn Centre plan still calls for two new high-rises with a 150-room Aloft hotel, a 240-room Le Meridien hotel, a 550-space parking garage, 60 condos, and up to six restaurants.

But Allen now is looking at building the project in phases, starting with the affordably hip Aloft hotel, which he said would be a hit with attendees of the FFA convention. The swankier Le Meridien brand would have to compete in a more crowded high-end category with the arrival of the new JW Marriott.

The area around Allen Plaza has been a hotbed of activity the last few years. The former Junior Achievement building at 21 Virginia Ave. got a major revamp and a new anchor tenant, the 500 Festival. Adobo Grill, Dunkin Donuts and Pita Pit took over vacant spaces. And locally based The Broadbent Co. revitalized the old Zipper Building and landed first-floor anchor Fogo de Chao.

In times like these, small and lean developers such as Allen and Broadbent can be more nimble with decisions, said Jeff Roberts, a Broadbent senior leasing representative.

Of course, the climate isn’t easy for anyone.

“There’s no easy way to deal with this economy, whether you’re Simon or Broadbent or Greg Allen,” Roberts said.

Thanks for the post ablerock! Good to see that the project is at least still being talked about:)

Great news on Penn Centre...

That is great news. Hopefully it comes to fruition.

Is this what the windows of the warehouse on Pennsylvania St. are referring to when they say "A New City is Coming"?

Is this what the windows of the warehouse on Pennsylvania St. are referring to when they say "A New City is Coming"?

No, If I remember correctly there will be a police history museum in a portion of the first floor of that building. There was some discussion of this several months ago on a thread here somewhere.

From IBJ (http://www.ibj.com/property-lines/2009/11/19/developer-eyes-penn-centre-as-it-wraps-up-allen-plaza/PARAMS/post/11296):

Developer eyes Penn Centre as it wraps up Allen Plaza

Allen Commercial Group is offering for sale the first of 30 condos in its flagship nine-story Allen Plaza building along Pennsylvania Street downtown. The $14-million project includes five floors of condos, three floors of office space and Scotty's Brewhouse on the ground floor. And the firm, which has moved its headquarters to the building's second floor, is working on a phasing plan for its much-larger Penn Centre proposal. J. Greg Allen proposed the $135-million mix of hotels, condos and restaurants in 2007 for a stretch of surface parking lots across from Conseco Fieldhouse, but he had to put the project on hold when credit markets froze. Allen still owns the land and hopes to finish half of the project in time for the Super Bowl in 2012. Read more about Allen's downtown plans here (http://www.ibj.com/article?articleId=10995).

Dead as a doornail. It's possible but extremely unlikely it can be brought back to life. Ain't happenin.

That's too bad. Not necessarilly that Indy needs an influx of new hotel rooms right now given the JW and associated hotels. But, it would have been a nice in-fill project of a parking lot and reuse of the Omega. Hopefully something will come on board for that space in the next few years.

Believe it or not.. there are discussions to develop a 10+ story building on the corner lot of Maryland and Penn that was wasn't part of this project. retail, parking, and residential. Just discussions at this point, so put this one in the pipe dream category.. but real discussions by the owners nonetheless.

I know nothing new about the Penn Centre site tho. It'll be developed of course, but something scaled back from the approved proposal. It's too prime to remain surface parking, but whatever happens there is years off and not even on the drawing board yet.

Believe it or not.. there are discussions to develop a 10+ story building on the corner lot of Maryland and Penn that was wasn't part of this project. retail, parking, and residential. Just discussions at this point, so put this one in the pipe dream category.. but real discussions by the owners nonetheless.

I know nothing new about the Penn Centre site tho. It'll be developed of course, but something scaled back from the approved proposal. It's too prime to remain surface parking, but whatever happens there is years off and not even on the drawing board yet.


You know with the residential frenzy going on downtown, what is the possibility of having another mixed use development but having 15 to 20 stories of appartments above the mixed use floors instead of the hotel? You would think with the success of Georgia Street and the potential for another super bowl plus many other events that can leverage Georgia Street, a group of developers wouldn't get together to build something somewhat ambitious there. Also the 96% occupancy rate. The East side of Georgia Street needs an major development as an anchor there.

The problem with that site is that there are 7 different owners.. literally. It's extremely hard to get them all to agree or to even sit at the same table. Having said that, there are definitely ongoing efforts to build there, but nothing resembling a plan.

I think the best possible outcome would be if a big fish bought the whole thing, but that would cost a ton of money.. all the people involved know what a goldmine they're sitting on, and that is unfortunately what is stifling development.

You know with the residential frenzy going on downtown, what is the possibility of having another mixed use development but having 15 to 20 stories of appartments above the mixed use floors instead of the hotel? You would think with the success of Georgia Street and the potential for another super bowl plus many other events that can leverage Georgia Street, a group of developers wouldn't get together to build something somewhat ambitious there. Also the 96% occupancy rate. The East side of Georgia Street needs an major development as an anchor there.

The problem with that site is that there are 7 different owners.. literally. It's extremely hard to get them all to agree or to even sit at the same table. Having said that, there are definitely ongoing efforts to build there, but nothing resembling a plan.

I think the best possible outcome would be if a big fish bought the whole thing, but that would cost a ton of money.. all the people involved know what a goldmine they're sitting on, and that is unfortunately what is stifling development.

I thought Allen owned that site.

I thought Allen owned that site.

One of many owners. Allen was to be the developer for Penn Centre, and would still be the driving force behind any future development of course.

Moochie, do you know how big the lots are there? You mentioned 7 different owners, are there 7 different parcels there? If so, is it possible to have 7 smaller independent developments occur at different times?

Moochie, do you know how big the lots are there? You mentioned 7 different owners, are there 7 different parcels there? If so, is it possible to have 7 smaller independent developments occur at different times?

I really don't remember. It was explained to me once, it was something like 4 properties with 7 owners, and some of these owners partially owned more than one parcel.. A mess in other words, and not uncommon.

I would really love it if they put the old "1960's modern" fountain back on that plaza somewhere. I really liked its look. I hope Mr. Allen puts it back.

Wow.. I had totally forgotten about that fountain.. does anyone have pix? I can't find any.

edit - never mind, found it. and a cool story about it making it's way back to Seattle...

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2017819309_tsutakawa23m.html

http://seattletimes.com/ABPub/2012/03/22/2017819342.jpg

http://seattletimes.com/ABPub/2012/03/22/2017819112.jpg

Well ----- That's pretty sad for Indianapolis to have lost that beautiful art fountain -- although it seems like Seattle is the perfect place for it - since the artist was from there - and the Northwest part of the US has a much stronger link to Japan and Asian art influences. Unfortunately, (but good for Seattle), it probably will be more appreciated there. I wish we could have found some local benefactors who could have helped get it fixed up and back in shape. Allen Plaza has become a beautiful people place and the fountain seems like it still could have worked well there - even with the recent changes. Disappointing that we lost this beautiful piece of art. It seems like another case of "you don't really appreciate what you've got 'til its gone".

Well ----- That's pretty sad for Indianapolis to have lost that beautiful art fountain -- although it seems like Seattle is the perfect place for it - since the artist was from there - and the Northwest part of the US has a much stronger link to Japan and Asian art influences. Unfortunately, (but good for Seattle), it probably will be more appreciated there. I wish we could have found some local benefactors who could have helped get it fixed up and back in shape. Allen Plaza has become a beautiful people place and the fountain seems like it still could have worked well there - even with the recent changes. Disappointing that we lost this beautiful piece of art. It seems like another case of "you don't really appreciate what you've got 'til its gone".

The fact that Greg Allen trucked this thing to his house, literally dumped it in his backyard, and then tried to sell it on Ebay for $1,000,000 strikes me as really funny... But I'm not sure why..

Yeah... that fountain is kind of ugly.

Yeah... that fountain is kind of ugly.

Seriously? I think it's beautiful.

Seriously? I think it's beautiful.

I'm not saying this for the sake of causing conflict, but when I see that, it makes me think that some giant hill billy stacked up his excess lawn furniture. But that's just me.

I'm not saying this for the sake of causing conflict, but when I see that, it makes me think that some giant hill billy stacked up his excess lawn furniture. But that's just me.

Meh. To each his own.

Meh. To each his own.

I could also see how someone might find it similar to an old Japanese stone lantern.

I could also see how someone might find it similar to an old Japanese stone lantern.

Actually, I think that's close to the intent of the artist.