Four Seasons Baltimore & LEGG Mason tower [Archive]

30 Floors Up

October 1st, 2007, 08:23 PM

^^ Ha! Dream on. Two million $ would be a bargain. Pick up 2 at that price if you can. The Penthouse at Spinaker Bay next door is on the market now for $4.5 million. The penthouse at the Pinnacle is being marketed for $6 million.

I bet that the Four Seasons penthouse will top out at $9 or $10 million. The other units will start at about $2.5 million I suspect. The Four Seasons is one of the best hotel chains in America. Having those amenities, that location, and those views will make them some of the most expensive houses ever constructed in Baltimore. I bet the penthouse gets taged as being the most expensive home ever built in Baltimore. That's my guess and I'm sticking to it! :cheers:

~~~~~

Brian - hit Century 21 down by ground zero for clothes. It's hit or miss, but you can really get some bargains there if you happen to go on the right day.

Also, the ferry ride to Staten Island is a must. Best of all, it is free. Ride over, get off, and get right back on for the return trip. Takes about an hour and 10 minutes total. Incredible views of the Statue of Liberty, Manhattan, Brooklyn, etc. Go on a clear day at noon for the best pictures. The boats leave from the tip of Manhattan. Just keep walking down Broadway until you hit water or take the subway downtown.

I took the below photo in August. The boats are orange as you can see.
http://www.baltimoreguy.com/images/Happenings%202007/Happenings%202007%2007%20New%20York.jpg

And of course, you have to go to the top of the Empire State Building for the view.

PeterSmith

October 1st, 2007, 08:31 PM

waj0527

October 1st, 2007, 08:47 PM

i'd guess they'll try and start em around 600k...and take them up to close to 2 mil for a penthouse. But thats just a guess...

What are they asking for Silo Point? Starting the the mid high 400's?

Starting at $600K??? Top out at $2 mill??? In a Four Seasons in that neighborhood??? Good luck with that.

They could easily ask for $6-7 million for the penthouse in that building. Would they get $7 mill? I dunno, but they won't even ask for less than $4.

cgunna

October 1st, 2007, 09:32 PM

again....

you can ask for whatever you want.

what you get is an altogether different matter.

<shrugs> we will see soon enough.

waj0527

October 1st, 2007, 09:44 PM

Yeah, but developers wouldn't just ask for a price that they'd never get. It's a waste of time to do so.

My point is that the developers of the Four Seasons will ask for and get far more than 'close to 2 mil' for a penthouse unit.

modestproposal

October 1st, 2007, 09:49 PM

Northern

October 1st, 2007, 11:07 PM

Two more from the site

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5543/88900142bk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2048/74016010hi6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

waj0527

October 1st, 2007, 11:36 PM

That design is MUCH improved. MUCH improved.

Doesn't look like tons of balconies all over the place.

modestproposal

October 2nd, 2007, 12:01 AM

Two more from the site

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5543/88900142bk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2048/74016010hi6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That looks so damn cool.

You need to add "[the height] (U/C)" onto the thread title.

Gsol

October 2nd, 2007, 01:13 AM

Gsol,

I'm going to be up in NYC next week. I will be staying at "Hotel 57" on 57th and Lexington St. Any recommendations that you can give me would be appreciated I.E. nite spots, restaurants, attractions, etc.:)

I'm very excited about going up there.:banana:

Let me know what attractions and night life you are intersted in seeing/doing. Also price range of restaurant, you can spend quite a bundle. Or you can hang out with the locals at a more reasonably priced neighborhood place. What type of food do you like? Are you interested in seeing a show? I know a way to get lower priced tickets.

You can email me at gsol1212@aol.com

Phee

October 2nd, 2007, 02:58 PM

Starting at $600K??? Top out at $2 mill??? In a Four Seasons in that neighborhood??? Good luck with that.

They could easily ask for $6-7 million for the penthouse in that building. Would they get $7 mill? I dunno, but they won't even ask for less than $4.

Are there still going to be condos? I thought with the introduction of the Legg tower they eliminated the condo part of the complex, leaving only a handful of condos in the upper floors of the hotel for related parties, never going on sale to the public.

waj0527

October 2nd, 2007, 03:39 PM

Are there still going to be condos? I thought with the introduction of the Legg tower they eliminated the condo part of the complex, leaving only a handful of condos in the upper floors of the hotel for related parties, never going on sale to the public.

There will be condos, limited, but condos nonetheless. Not sure how they'll be offering them though. Either way, I'm sure it'll be too rich for my blood.

HarborSky

October 2nd, 2007, 03:43 PM

I notice they're going to have a negative edge pool overlooking the harbor. NICE!

hello345

October 2nd, 2007, 04:27 PM

I still can't believe that thi prject is happening! It's so cool and worth the delay!

Tricia_Lvs_Baltimore

October 2nd, 2007, 05:37 PM

I notice they're going to have a negative edge pool overlooking the harbor. NICE!
Yes, that pool is very nice! I also favor the green glass over the black glass on the buildings any day! Looks like a winner to me! The wait for this was definitely worth it.

waj0527

October 2nd, 2007, 05:58 PM

It's funny b/c we finally got a design worth being ecstatic over and its a Four Seasons Hotel to boot! That, my friends, is a win-win-win!

jamie_hunt

October 2nd, 2007, 06:12 PM

... I also favor the green glass over the black glass on the buildings any day! ...

Agreed. Those buildings are going to look very striking, particularly when the sun is rising and setting. Fine terminus for the JFX.

Somewhat related: Boston's skyline has always left me a little cold: greys, blacks, and muddy oranges (weathered pink granite) predominate. Heading south on I-93 early one morning, though, the sun was just hitting the glass Hancock Tower and the sight was absolutely beautiful.

http://z.about.com/d/architecture/1/0/G/G/johnhancocktower01-mas.jpg

Bmore Rocks!

October 2nd, 2007, 06:25 PM

I really think that once the construction of the Legg Mason and Four Seasons Tower's are complete this will be the start of a new era in building construction in baltimore. I see more glass, which will ultimatley lead to more sleeker design.

Brian21

October 2nd, 2007, 06:37 PM

Maybe Arc Wheeler will speed up the process on 10 IH. Now that the 3rd tallest tower is underway in B'more. What do you guys think?

Northern

October 2nd, 2007, 07:33 PM

What is the square footage for the new Legg Mason? To me it looks smaller than the current tower.

hello345, as the "owner" of the thread, it would be cool to have the height, number of floors and the U/C tag added to the title. It gives a good sense of project scale to visitors from other subforums. I have seen it done in other sections. Smth like this I imagine:
Four Seasons (## fls, ### ft) & Legg Mason (## fls, ### ft) ***U/C***

rxsoccer

October 2nd, 2007, 10:10 PM

^^ I thought I remember hearing that some of the units in the Vue, Spinnaker Bay and 1400 Lancaster went for over $1 million. And didn't the Ritz units sell as high as $5 million? I bet some of the Four Seasons units will top $2 or 3 million.

I pulled this from the Harbor East website http://www.harboreast.com/leasing/demographics.htm:

I think the 4S condos are going to go for MUCH more than that. I am almost positive those estimates for avg price came from the original design which included somewhere around 250 condo units. The revised design now only includes around 80 if I'm not mistaken.
In all likelihood those are going to be prime spots and I would be shocked if you could even get a 1 BR for less than $1.5M. The 1 BR at the Ritz started near $1M and given the exclusivity of their condos (only about 80) and likelihood that you will be sitting around 40 stories up, combined with over the top luxury that will make spinnaker bay look like a cheap knockoff, there will definitely not be any bargains to be had with those units. No way they will not be the most expensive condos in the city. I would easily add 10% to whatever the Ritz prices are and well over 25% to Harborview/VUE/Spinnaker Bay price range.

hello345

October 3rd, 2007, 01:14 AM

hello345, as the "owner" of the thread, it would be cool to have the height, number of floors and the U/C tag added to the title. It gives a good sense of project scale to visitors from other subforums. I have seen it done in other sections. Smth like this I imagine:
Four Seasons (## fls, ### ft) & Legg Mason (## fls, ### ft) ***U/C***

Ok it's done. :okay:

MasonsInquiries

October 3rd, 2007, 02:51 AM

That design is MUCH improved. MUCH improved.

Doesn't look like tons of balconies all over the place.
i agree. this new design is really going to bring alot of life to harbor east. and just think, there's still much more coming to harbor east and harbor point has yet to begun.

MasonsInquiries

October 3rd, 2007, 04:04 AM

Yes, that pool is very nice! I also favor the green glass over the black glass on the buildings any day! Looks like a winner to me! The wait for this was definitely worth it.
agreed.:okay:

MobtownManiac

October 3rd, 2007, 03:33 PM

Nothing much to add to the approval of the new designs, they're fantastic.
We should hope that the Harbor Point plans lean towards this style as well. That side of the harbor could end up looking like Emerald City.

Bmore Rocks!

October 3rd, 2007, 03:52 PM

That side of the harbor could end up looking like Emerald City.

Not a bad thing in my opinion! ^^

Maudibjr

October 3rd, 2007, 04:09 PM

WIth the current rendering it looks like the crown slopes upward. Does anyone know have they increased the height a few feet?

StevenW

October 3rd, 2007, 06:16 PM

Would be nice if they would just go ahead and make it an even 500 ft.! :yes:

jamie_hunt

October 3rd, 2007, 06:33 PM

Bmore Rocks!

October 3rd, 2007, 08:27 PM

jamie_hunt

October 3rd, 2007, 08:42 PM

Interesting point. Hale's city-within-a-city ("Canton, USA" (http://www.cantoncrossing.com/index.html)) is a bit of an outlier, but it's still linked to downtown via the harbor, which seems to be functioning somewhat like Central Park in Manhattan by attracting development to its edges.

Bmore Rocks!

October 3rd, 2007, 08:55 PM

Interesting point. Hale's city-within-a-city ("Canton, USA") is a bit of an outlier, but it's still linked to downtown via the harbor, which seems to be functioning somewhat like Central Park in Manhattan by attracting development to its edges.

Interesting point. I would still consider Canton part of the CBD outskirts. As well as Locust Pt. (Ft. Ave corridor) which I really think is becoming a hidden gem with all the small fancy restaurants, as well as spa's/salons and botique stores. It nice that you don't have to travel 5 miles to get from vibrant area to vibrant area, thats why I think downtown development is really heading in the right direction.

jamie_hunt

October 3rd, 2007, 09:26 PM

jamie_hunt

October 3rd, 2007, 09:28 PM

deleted post ... it was way off topic

PeterSmith

October 3rd, 2007, 09:40 PM

Agreed. Hadn't thought of that. Downtown Atlanta is just over five miles from Buckhead (now being redeveloped ... some blame Ray Lewis for its decline), while Canton Crossing is only two from Harbor East/Harbor Point.

Now for my turn to go way off topic... it's crazy how one single event can impact an area. The Chili's at Belvedere Square was once the chain's most profitable and highest grossing location in the entire world. Then there was a shooting in the parking lot. A short while later, it went out of business. Considering that, it's amazing how much investment is taking place in Baltimore right now given the state of crime in the city.

jamie_hunt

October 3rd, 2007, 09:58 PM

Man, I loved that Chili's ... it was always jammed. Understand Ryan's Daughter's doing okay there now, and Belvedere Square as a whole seems in good shape. Daedalus Books has gotten a good chunk of dough from me.

TheGlobalizer

October 3rd, 2007, 10:44 PM

waj0527

October 3rd, 2007, 11:24 PM

Now for my turn to go way off topic... it's crazy how one single event can impact an area. The Chili's at Belvedere Square was once the chain's most profitable and highest grossing location in the entire world. Then there was a shooting in the parking lot. A short while later, it went out of business. Considering that, it's amazing how much investment is taking place in Baltimore right now given the state of crime in the city.

Ryan's Daughter>>>>>>>>Chili's (and it ain't even close...lol)

PeterSmith

October 4th, 2007, 03:05 AM

When I visited my parents over the summer (they live about a half mile walk from Belvedere Square) I went nearly every day. I really like that Italian deli/grocer. Between Belvedere Square and that shopping center on York Rd. up near the city line, there are a ton of great dining options in that area. I'm not digging the shopping center style of the area, but the choices are phenomenal.
Wasn't some type of planning being done for that area? I vaguely remember hearing some talk about the Senator being a great anchor for neighborhood revitalization. The area has a lot of history and a lot of diversity. I think if the transit system was extended to Belvedere Square or, better yet, to Towson, that area would quickly become a hotspot.

Anyway, back to Four Seasons/Legg Mason. Concerning the talk earlier about the renderings being out-of-scale, it may be the case, but all the renderings from all the different angles seem to have a similar scale. Maybe they've jacked up the height again.

scando

October 4th, 2007, 04:26 AM

What I like about the development thats occuring right now is that it's happening all within walking distance of the CBD. I'd rather have one large vibrant downtown core (Westside,InnerHar,HarborE,FedHill,Fells Pt) instead of sepearte "downtowns" scattered throughout the city that compete against eachother. It's almost like suburban sprawl when one area "goes down" another area farther out becomes the new "spot." In our case this insures that downtown balt. becomes the entertainment/social/finanical hub of the region.

A good city needs neighborhood business and local hot spots too. Historically Baltimore annexed a bunch of small towns that already had their "strips", like Waverly, Hampden, etc, as it grew and several of those are still quite viable. In the context of smart growth and neighborhood vitality, places like Belvedere Square really add a lot to a city. Not everybody wants to be downtown all the time and it's nice to have places fun to go close to home.

I live in Mount Washington and one of the things I love about here is that within a short walk of my house I have beer, videos, restaurants, car repair, a bike shop, light rail, a bookstore, Royal Farms, Whole Foods, etc. Since Belvedere Square reopened, that area with movies, food, Daedalus, Friday night bands, etc is really alive. None of this takes away from downtown/waterfront areas, nor are they part of a zero-sum calculation. On the contrary, they add to the critical mass of the entire city. I'm looking forward to the Rotunda development as another small "hot spot".

scando

October 4th, 2007, 04:33 AM

When I visited my parents over the summer (they live about a half mile walk from Belvedere Square) I went nearly every day. I really like that Italian deli/grocer. Between Belvedere Square and that shopping center on York Rd. up near the city line, there are a ton of great dining options in that area. I'm not digging the shopping center style of the area, but the choices are phenomenal.
Wasn't some type of planning being done for that area? I vaguely remember hearing some talk about the Senator being a great anchor for neighborhood revitalization. The area has a lot of history and a lot of diversity. I think if the transit system was extended to Belvedere Square or, better yet, to Towson, that area would quickly become a hotspot.....

I don't think the city has done much of a big plan for this area, but Belvedere Square was such a dead zone "before" that the change is amazing. The city has been doing some streetscaping but most of the credit goes to the mix of food and business on that corner and people in the neighborhood being really ready for something to do close to home.

scando

October 4th, 2007, 04:39 AM

Yeah, I hit up the Egyptian Pizza pretty regularly. Saigon Remembered is great, too.

I'd love to see Kiefaber sell the Senator to the Charles. Seems like there's some synergies to be had in that sort of a deal, particularly with Landmark moving in.

Somebody ought to pin a medal on the guy who owns Egyptian Pizza. For years, he was the only living cell in that dead body and somehow he sold enough pizza, calzones and schwarma to stay around for better days.

I don't think Kiefaber will sell out the the Charles guys any time soon. There is serious bad blood between them. I don't get it but Keifaber thinks they are trying to get his movies. Considering that the Senator plays FX blockbusters and the Charles does foreign and indie films, the fight seems pretty silly.

jamie_hunt

October 4th, 2007, 01:51 PM

Anyway, back to Four Seasons/Legg Mason. Concerning the talk earlier about the renderings being out-of-scale, it may be the case, but all the renderings from all the different angles seem to have a similar scale. Maybe they've jacked up the height again.

That would be cool. As someone mentioned previously, I'm glad they're going with glass on these buildings. Brick is fine, but this will be much better. The sloping roof is cool, too. Since nothing on Harbor Point will be nearly as high, these two buildings will be the focal point tying HE and HP together. I'm not a big shopper, but it seems there'll be two strands of retail coming out of this: one heading down along the water's edge towards Thames; the other heading east on Aliceanna. And possibly a third heading up Exeter toward Little Italy, since the Bagby Building is going to get first floor retail as part of its re-renovation. As a say, I don't shop much, but retail makes for good "walking" streets.

waj0527

October 4th, 2007, 03:08 PM

Wasn't some type of planning being done for that area? I vaguely remember hearing some talk about the Senator being a great anchor for neighborhood revitalization. The area has a lot of history and a lot of diversity. I think if the transit system was extended to Belvedere Square or, better yet, to Towson, that area would quickly become a hotspot.

Well, the vision presented about 7 years ago for the commercial strip just north of the Historic Cedarcroft community has been realized. The vision for Belvedere Square has been realized, too. Both complexes operate at 100% occupancy.

The Belvedere Square area has really become a nighttime hot spot for the college crowd. I happened to be driving north on York at 2am one morning and the streets were littered with people pouring out of bars. The street was quite active.

waj0527

October 4th, 2007, 03:15 PM

...it seems there'll be two strands of retail coming out of this: one heading down along the water's edge towards Thames; the other heading east on Aliceanna.

Does anyone know if SBER still plans to build those townhomes on the empty parcel opposite the Shops at 1500 Thames? I hope they reconsidered. I'm at DuClaw often and can't help but notice it as an obvious place for more retail below flats.

jamie_hunt

October 4th, 2007, 03:39 PM

Re: 1500 Thames—

Pretty sure they're building apartments. The project's name is Jackson Wharf, and the HE/HP sales brochure (http://www.harboreast.com/leasing/harboreast_brochure.pdf) indicates there'll be 110 units there (page 33). Of course, the brochure's a couple years old, so things may have changed, but I suspect the developers are savvy enough to know that they should keep the retail along Thames. Somewhat O/T but relevant: ten years ago when Jimmy Rouse and Kemp Byrnes of the Charles Street Association commissioned a retail study of Charles, the consultants pointed out that the Archbishop's Residence and First Unitarian Church—while wonderful architecturally*—made a vibrant retail street difficult since (from a retail perspective) they were empty spaces. Not building retail at Jackson Wharf would create the same problem.

*the Archbishop's residence would be more attractive if they took off the formstone and restored the original stucco ... although, it did make it into the Lillian Bowers/Skizz Cyzyk movie, "Little Castles." (http://www.citypaper.com/film/review.asp?rid=6005)

I can't seem to stay on topic. May end up being the first person banned from a specific thread.

TheGlobalizer

October 4th, 2007, 04:42 PM

I don't think Kiefaber will sell out the the Charles guys any time soon. There is serious bad blood between them. I don't get it but Keifaber thinks they are trying to get his movies. Considering that the Senator plays FX blockbusters and the Charles does foreign and indie films, the fight seems pretty silly.

There have been a number of stories in the local press about this.

http://www.senator.com/senator11.cfm

Basically, the Senator tries to play the occasional indie flick, like a "Fahrenheit 9/11", but if the Charles gets the rights to play it, they block ("clear") other area theaters from playing the film. It would be a big money maker for whoever gets the film, so a fight ensues, and more often than not, the Charles wins.

I don't expect it to happen, but I think the guys running the Charles have the business acumen to make the Senator work in Baltimore. By itself, without a "destination" neighborhood surrounding it, the Senator has an uphill battle just to be profitable.

modestproposal

October 4th, 2007, 04:55 PM

T
Basically, the Senator tries to play the occasional indie flick, like a "Fahrenheit 9/11",

Since when is Fahrenheit 9/11 an "indie flick?"

TheGlobalizer

October 4th, 2007, 05:00 PM

Technically, it's a crossover film, an indie-style film that generates mass-market appeal. But you never know if it's going to cross over until it opens (or shortly before).

k25150

October 4th, 2007, 05:15 PM

Take the Seattle model. Most of the areas and neighborhoods in Seattle proper all look like Federal Hill or O'Donnell Street. I think these thriving areas improve the entire city while downtown is still the large commercial, cultural and business center.

cgunna

October 4th, 2007, 07:02 PM

Sitcking with the slightly-off-topic-but-relevant talk of revitialization around shopping.....

I think the biggest and, for me anyway, the most interesting is Mondawmin. The development plan is so much more than the Target and Shoppers. I was there yesterday and they have some renderings outside. It looks like the plan is a total re-scaping of the whole mall. Target has bought into the idea of establishing a presence in that area. Its the pilot store for other locations in Cleveland, Detroit and other 'inner city' areas. If it works, (which I think it will) national retailers will certainly take notice.

waj0527

October 4th, 2007, 09:56 PM

I'm actually excited about the Mondawmin project too.

That whole mall should serve as a reason for people to take the train there and shop.

I too think the Target will do well there. Everybody, poor or rich, need places to shop. A couple of years ago, Target opened a location at PG Plaza (aka The Mall at Prince George's). Despite being a suburban location, it's still a rough mall and that store seems to be doing well.

House3780

October 4th, 2007, 10:09 PM

I guess if security square mall can be made more inviting so can mondawmin mall.. but i'll still have to see it to believe it.

SoBoChris

October 4th, 2007, 10:31 PM

So......what's new with the Four Seasons and Legg Mason towers?

jamie_hunt

October 4th, 2007, 11:21 PM

Umm ... there'll be quite a view of them from the newly-refurbished Mondawmin?

Sadly, new news doesn't percolate as quickly as our desire to comment ... which then leads to speculation about how much additional traffic Central Avenue is going to get once Legg and Morgan Stanley at HP are up and running.

Silver Springer

October 5th, 2007, 06:10 AM

30 Floors Up

October 5th, 2007, 01:08 PM

When I lived in Reservoir Hill in the 80's, I shopped Mondawmin ofen. In fact, I would often walk there from Madison Avenue. I enjoyed it and I never had a problem at all.

jamie_hunt

October 5th, 2007, 02:36 PM

Good news in The Sun re: Harbor Point (http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-bz.tour05oct05,0,3896533.story)

[snip]

"One of the things that gives me great confidence is what's going on with employment and jobs," said C. William Struever, president and chief executive of Struever Bros. Eccles and Rouse Inc., a co-developer of the planned Harbor Point next to Harbor East on the former AlliedSignal site.

He told tour participants that office leasing has grown this year for his company. "If you've got growth in office, you've got growth in jobs and it's an energizer for other segments in real estate."

At Harbor Point, work should start on an office building in a matter of weeks, marking the first construction in the $700 million community. ...

"It's helpful in a wider audience gaining an understanding of what's going on, and the real power of what's happening in downtown Baltimore," said Larry White, who heads the Harbor Point project for Struever Bros. "Whether it is producing anything for us in terms of tenants, we've yet to see, but that's longer term. The more people that know about it, the more excitement builds and the more buzz there is, and the better it is for everyone in the city."

marc1969

October 5th, 2007, 02:38 PM

Prince George's Plaza a "rough" mall? Are you serious?

I gotta agree about calling it a rough mall (although I was last there in the late 90's while in college so it may be different now). I would say a rough mall is any mall where a fight breaks out in the food court and like clockwork, all the merchants pull down there metal gates...

Silver Springer

October 5th, 2007, 03:10 PM

I gotta agree about calling it a rough mall (although I was last there in the late 90's while in college so it may be different now). I would say a rough mall is any mall where a fight breaks out in the food court and like clockwork, all the merchants pull down there metal gates...

Then you will be pleasantly surprised to see it now, it has undergone major renovation. It’s now officially called the Mall at Prince George’s. This is one of my stomping grounds and I always found that area of Hyattsville a sort of a haven. It has always been neat and well maintained area.

Now the area is booming! Major individual projects on all sides. University Town Center is right next door. It will become an urban district if they continue down this path.

Silver Springer

October 5th, 2007, 03:15 PM

marc1969

October 5th, 2007, 03:41 PM

Then you will be pleasantly surprised to see it now, it has undergone major renovation. It’s now officially called the Mall at Prince George’s. This is one of my stomping grounds and I always found that area of Hyattsville a sort of a haven. It has always been neat and well maintained area.

Now the area is booming! Major individual projects on all sides. University Town Center is right next door. It will become an urban district if they continue down this path.

Good to know! I've heard misc. stories about the areas redevelopment. I'll end this discussion now since it has nothing to do with the Four Seasons and Legg tower, which by the way is AWESOME! :banana:

bma83

October 5th, 2007, 04:39 PM

Does anyone know if the Four Seasons will contain any retail?

jamie_hunt

October 5th, 2007, 04:47 PM

Yes. "Upscale street level retail." (http://www.harboreast.com/leasing/fourseasons.htm) Your guess is as good as mine about who that'll be. DC, Boston, and Atlanta Four Seasons don't seem to have any retail, though I could be missing something. If you click on the leasing plan, it appears there will be three retailers/restaurants. One's pretty small, and would be a good place for Harbor News to relocate to.

Balmurfan

October 6th, 2007, 10:56 PM

Foundation work for the proposed Four Seasons at Harbor East could start as early as spring 2008, more than two years after the hotel's groundbreaking was first scheduled and then postponed.

Despite the bumpy start, developers H&S Properties Development Corp. and Struever Bros. Eccles & Rouse Inc. said they are moving ahead with plans for both the Four Seasons and Legg Mason towers.

Michael Beatty, president of H&S Properties, said Four Seasons has signed an agreement to operate the hotel at 701 Aliceanna St. for the next 80 years. The Baltimore Business Journal first reported in July 2002 that H&S Properties had reached a deal to bring the luxury hotel to Baltimore.

Yet the project did not gain momentum until February when Legg Mason announced plans to move its headquarters from 100 Light St. in downtown Baltimore to the Harbor East site next to the planned Four Seasons. At that time, the developers unveiled plans to convert one of the two planned towers from condominiums to office and retail space

StevenW

October 7th, 2007, 12:07 AM

I think that was the slurry wall development. :)

hello345

October 7th, 2007, 12:07 AM

What???!??!?! I thought this was u/c:(

MasonsInquiries

October 7th, 2007, 06:04 AM

^^it is. the part you see u/c is for the legg mason tower. they need to be swift with building that tower because there's a 2009 deadline. the 4seasons tower, on the other hand, can start whenever.

StevenW

October 7th, 2007, 06:28 PM

I would love to see this larger. :)
http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/99263-400-0.jpg?rev=2

waj0527

October 8th, 2007, 05:15 PM

^^me too.

jamie_hunt

October 8th, 2007, 07:50 PM

Looking at that image, it appears no decision has been made about the bridge from HE to HP. Some views show it as a sort of President Street extended, angling south from the circles; others as Central Avenue extended, cutting right in front of Living Classrooms. This view shows neither.

PeterSmith

October 8th, 2007, 09:27 PM

^^ Jamie, any idea with the bridges will be for vehicle traffic or pedestrian traffic only?

jamie_hunt

October 8th, 2007, 10:04 PM

Both vehicles and pedestrians. One of the sore spots of the Harbor Point development was that Caroline Street provided the only way in and out for commuters. So, plans have been variously called for extending President or Caroline. Living Classrooms (at one time, perhaps they've reconciled) didn't like either idea, as both would restrict boat access to their campus on the old City Dock at Caroline and Lancaster. I believe a drawbridge has been proposed; that would help some.

StevenW

October 8th, 2007, 11:12 PM

Full article:

Four Seasons hotel developers say work could start next year Business Journal - by Daniel J. Sernovitz Staff

Foundation work for the proposed Four Seasons at Harbor East could start as early as spring 2008, more than two years after the hotel's groundbreaking was first scheduled and then postponed.

Despite the bumpy start, developers H&S Properties Development Corp. and Struever Bros. Eccles & Rouse Inc. said they are moving ahead with plans for both the Four Seasons and Legg Mason towers.

Michael Beatty, president of H&S Properties, said Four Seasons has signed an agreement to operate the hotel at 701 Aliceanna St. for the next 80 years. The Baltimore Business Journal first reported in July 2002 that H&S Properties had reached a deal to bring the luxury hotel to Baltimore.

Yet the project did not gain momentum until February when Legg Mason announced plans to move its headquarters from 100 Light St. in downtown Baltimore to the Harbor East site next to the planned Four Seasons. At that time, the developers unveiled plans to convert one of the two planned towers from condominiums to office and retail space.

"The two pieces together is really the only thing that makes the project work," Beatty said.

Groundbreaking for the project, which had been in the works for about four years prior, was postponed from fall 2005 to July 2006 due to what Struever Bros. said were design issues. It was pushed back a second time to spring 2007, with Struever Bros. again citing design problems it later revealed to have been Legg Mason's commitment to take space at Harbor East.

The repeated delays created some uncertainty within Baltimore's business community about whether the Four Seasons would ever be built. John Blumer, head of CB Richard Ellis Inc.'s Baltimore office, said he believes the developers have since shown they can accomplish what they set out to do. That Baltimore-based Legg Mason has committed to the project, he said, has helped erase some of that doubt.

"People believe it; they want to be there," Blumer said. "Legg Mason is just a huge statement for everyone."

The city was confident enough in the overall project to award the developers $33 million in tax breaks for the Legg Mason tower in September. Although the developers requested additional tax breaks for the Four Seasons, city leaders rejected the idea.

Meanwhile, work on the project is under way. Michael Ricketts, overseeing the project on behalf of Struever Bros., said excavation of an 80-foot-deep slurry wall, or trench, was completed in September and the contractors will work until mid-January to reinforce the hole with tiebacks. If all goes as planned, Ricketts said, the developers could start building a five-story underground parking garage in May that would serve as the foundation for the Four Seasons and Legg Mason towers.

Legg Mason's tower is slated to be completed by 2009, and the Four Seasons hotel and condominium building done by 2010, the developers and Baltimore Development Corp. leaders said. Four Seasons spokeswoman Nicola Blazier confirmed the hotel's completion date.

Maryland tax records show that Four Seasons incorporated under "Four Seasons Hotels Limited'' on July 13, enabling the hotel operator to do business here.

On the office side, Colliers Pinkard is marketing the 24-story Legg Mason tower. That building will have 579,230 square feet, leaving just shy of 180,000 square feet of space available to other tenants.

Colliers broker L. Bruce Matthai said he is beginning to market that space and has proposals out to companies that would take as much as 100,000 square feet. The asking rent is just under $30 per square foot, significantly above any other office building in the city when additional lease terms are factored in.

"I'm very excited about it, I think it's going to be the premier office building in Baltimore," Matthai said, noting Harbor East's other amenities should help sweeten the deal for prospective tenants.

Beatty said the developers plan to open a residential sales office in the spring, coinciding with the parking garage's construction, to market the project's 118 condominium units. Beatty said it was important to let prospective buyers see physical evidence of construction to remove doubt in their minds about the project's completion and make them more likely to commit to buying one of the units. He did not say how much the condo units would cost.

With the real estate market in flux, new home sales are down in the Baltimore region and across the nation. Beatty said he is not worried by those factors because he believes H&S Properties has established itself as a known entity and Harbor East's other projects have done well.

"One of the things that we have on our side is credibility," he said. "Everything in real estate is somewhat cyclical. Obviously, we spent our time building a strong neighborhood, and if people feel confident in our neighborhood, they'll feel confident investing in it."

The buildings will have a combined 73,000 square feet of retail space, and Beatty said he plans to market the project to companies during International Council of Shopping Centers' annual conference in May 2008.

Maudibjr

October 9th, 2007, 04:18 PM

I thought that they were building the foundations for both buildings at the same time. Wit legg rising above the ground first.

Brian21

October 9th, 2007, 10:41 PM

Four Seasons/Legg Mason will be the tallest all glass towers to be built here in a long time. Am I right?:)

jamie_hunt

October 9th, 2007, 11:07 PM

Yes. Charles Center South (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=charlescentersouth-baltimore-md-usa) (1975, 25 floors) and 111 South Calvert (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=streetgalleryatharborplace-baltimore-md-usa) (1988, 28 floors) are about the same height as the new Legg Mason (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=4seasonsresidences-baltimore-md-usa) (2009, 24 floors) but well under the Four Seasons (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=4seasonsbaltimore-baltimore-md-usa) (2010, 44).

StevenW

October 10th, 2007, 12:49 AM

Harbor east will have 1 400+ footer, (almost 500 ft. really), and three 300+ footers. :D

SoBoChris

October 11th, 2007, 12:38 AM

MasonsInquiries

October 11th, 2007, 01:07 AM

^^good question. your guess is as good as mine........

http://216.54.2.253/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi?resolution=640x480&dummy=1191279980140

waj0527

October 11th, 2007, 03:58 PM

Seeing this is really helping me realize that I'd be no good living on the Hancock Center or some other super tall structure. 30-40 floors above the ground is just fine with me.

TheGlobalizer

October 11th, 2007, 05:44 PM

^^ No Chicago Spire penthouse for you?

Eerik

October 11th, 2007, 06:13 PM

I check out the webcam on the Armada Hoffler site at least once a day and noticed a piece of steel jutting out just below the camera. I'm guessing the camera is located somewhere on the Vue. Does anyone know what this might be?

It is on The Vue and the steel jutting out support steel cables. You can clearly see them in this pic:
http://www.dcestonian.com/baltimore/vue_roof.jpg

jamie_hunt

October 11th, 2007, 06:29 PM

^^ No Chicago Spire penthouse for you?

Spire? More like a drill bit or a baguette.

http://www.chicagoarchitecture.info/CAI/Images/NearNorthSide/ChicagoSpire-004.jpg

TheGlobalizer

October 11th, 2007, 06:34 PM

I'll take the condo at the top of that, any day of the week.

cgunna

October 11th, 2007, 10:19 PM

you could probably see clear into Milwaulkee from the top of that thing...

sdeclue

October 11th, 2007, 11:51 PM

What is the talk on here about a bridge being constructed between Harbor East and Harbor Point? I think a great bridge would be a tremendous addition to the city.

MasonsInquiries

October 12th, 2007, 01:54 AM

you could probably see clear into Milwaulkee from the top of that thing...
..............& probably all of gary, ind. as well.

MasonsInquiries

October 12th, 2007, 01:57 AM

What is the talk on here about a bridge being constructed between Harbor East and Harbor Point? I think a great bridge would be a tremendous addition to the city.
it's something that's definitely being considered. and it's needed when you consider how harbor point is right now.......from caroline street, there's only one way in, one way out.

jamie_hunt

October 12th, 2007, 02:48 PM

Quoting myself from earlier in the thread: Bridge is proposed for vehicles and pedestrians. One of the sore spots of the Harbor Point development was that Caroline Street provided the only way in and out for commuters. So, plans have been variously called for extending President or Caroline. Living Classrooms (at one time, perhaps they've reconciled) didn't like either idea, as both would restrict boat access to their campus on the old City Dock at Caroline and Lancaster. I believe a drawbridge has been proposed; that would help some.

Maudibjr

October 12th, 2007, 04:31 PM

What is the talk on here about a bridge being constructed between Harbor East and Harbor Point? I think a great bridge would be a tremendous addition to the city.

I'm not sure how great it will be considering it will only be at best 30 ft. long, but it will be a need filled.

jamie_hunt

October 12th, 2007, 05:04 PM

Providence, RI (http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=86&type_id=0#), has some great small bridges. If you ever have a chance to see WaterFire (http://www.waterfire.org/), do it.

Northern

October 15th, 2007, 01:49 AM

Man, they are really moving ahead with this project. Left the Ritz in the dust for sure..:nuts:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd202/callabow/ssc/lm.jpg

StevenW

October 15th, 2007, 04:03 AM

^^ Awesome!! :D

MasonsInquiries

October 15th, 2007, 04:35 AM

^^i'm speechless. it's gonna' look great!!:okay:

fanofterps

October 15th, 2007, 12:09 PM

I'm really looking forward to it.

waj0527

October 15th, 2007, 03:37 PM

Great rendering, Northern. I'm gonna put this in the Baltimore thread in the global development community.

Maudibjr

October 15th, 2007, 05:08 PM

Man, they are really moving ahead with this project. Left the Ritz in the dust for sure..:nuts:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd202/callabow/ssc/lm.jpg

Now that is a rendering that really gives you a prespective on how big it is.

UCTerp

October 15th, 2007, 05:24 PM

jamie_hunt

October 15th, 2007, 05:41 PM

Nothing on Struever Bros. bid board (http://www.sber.com/bidboard/) right now. Guessing it'll be a surface parking lot for a while, perhaps to make up for spaces lost as construction begins on Harbor Point (http://www.sber.com/baltimore/harbor_point.php). Looks like eventually you'll have a neighbor that's a mirror image of your building (http://www.sber.com/downloads/HEHP_Leasing_Brochure.pdf) (see page 5 in the brochure), so you should still have some sort of view.

UCTerp

October 15th, 2007, 05:53 PM

Thanks for the update. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing Harbor East and Harbor Point completed (I'm just hoping they wait till I move out to block the view from my apartment). I was also wondering about which of the Harbor Point buildings they're planning to start building first. I know one article said they're going to start an office building in a couple of weeks, but I wasn't sure if anyone figured out where it was going to be (I assumed it was one of the two buildings close to the Frederick Douglas Maritime Museum).

jamie_hunt

October 15th, 2007, 05:59 PM

Right ... pretty sure it'll be the one closest to Douglass ... think Morgan Stanley is still the lead tenant.

Hugh Jaramillo

October 15th, 2007, 09:18 PM

I just moved into The Eden apartments and heard they're getting ready to knock down the building across the street (the small one between Lancaster, Aliceanna, Central, and Eden). Has anyone heard anything about when they're putting something new up? I hope not too soon, it would kill my view. Thanks.

That's a great looking building and so central to everything downtown. Hope that you will enjoy your time living there. I was wondering how many of the unites there have been leased so far, do you have any idea? I know that there has been a general downturn in condo market sales and I heard that rentals are supposed to be doing quite well at the moment until the mortgage market settles down which is another reason that I was wondering how quickly your building is filling up. I can't wait for November 2 when the Landmark Theatres open accross from where the Whole Foods is now.

UCTerp

October 15th, 2007, 10:25 PM

That's a great looking building and so central to everything downtown. Hope that you will enjoy your time living there. I was wondering how many of the unites there have been leased so far, do you have any idea? I know that there has been a general downturn in condo market sales and I heard that rentals are supposed to be doing quite well at the moment until the mortgage market settles down which is another reason that I was wondering how quickly your building is filling up. I can't wait for November 2 when the Landmark Theatres open accross from where the Whole Foods is now.

I'm not sure the exact number of units that have been leased, but I doubt it's even half. A lot of the parking spaces are empty in the garage and a lot of the windows are dark. I'm not sure whether it's normal for this to happen when new apartments open or if the prices are keeping people from moving in (I know that I wouldn't have moved in except for the concessions they had -- two months free rent, free parking for a year, and a waiver of the ammenities fee). Maybe it will just take some time to get filled up, but they are asking for a lot money.

Hugh Jaramillo

October 15th, 2007, 10:50 PM

I'm not sure the exact number of units that have been leased, but I doubt it's even half. A lot of the parking spaces are empty in the garage and a lot of the windows are dark. I'm not sure whether it's normal for this to happen when new apartments open or if the prices are keeping people from moving in (I know that I wouldn't have moved in except for the concessions they had -- two months free rent, free parking for a year, and a waiver of the ammenities fee). Maybe it will just take some time to get filled up, but they are asking for a lot money.

Thanks for your response, UCTerp, but that is what I had guessed too based on the time that I was down at the Harbor East arts festival several weeks ago and happened to see people on their balconies. I know that they are pricey but I didn't think that they where charging extra fo ammenities and parking. But it does seem as though you got a good deal even though the rents are on the high side. I wonder how many of the unites in the Zeneith have been leased because they are even more expensive?

pfd103

October 15th, 2007, 10:59 PM

sdeclue

October 16th, 2007, 08:52 PM

I thought that it was going to be almost a mirror image of the eden building...but all condos instead of apartments.

Here's a pic...

http://www.harboreast.com/images/aerial_1.jpg

This is an old rendering though. The Four Seasons and Legg Mason are real small there, so don't take much stock in this picture.

waj0527

October 17th, 2007, 01:16 AM

Thanks for your response, UCTerp, but that is what I had guessed too based on the time that I was down at the Harbor East arts festival several weeks ago and happened to see people on their balconies. I know that they are pricey but I didn't think that they where charging extra fo ammenities and parking. But it does seem as though you got a good deal even though the rents are on the high side. I wonder how many of the unites in the Zeneith have been leased because they are even more expensive?

I looked at a unit in the Eden and it was too rich for my blood. At least to rent. I can't fork over that much and get no equity in return.

The Zenith is pricey too.

Rental units in Baltimore in general have been going up..a lot. It's certainly not the bargin it was just 5-10 years ago.

While we're at it. Am I the only person shocked that rent in the Railway Express Lofts building range from $1600-$2000? At least you can save on an alarm clock. The 5am Acela Express should do the trick.

Hugh Jaramillo

October 17th, 2007, 01:38 AM

I looked at a unit in the Eden and it was too rich for my blood. At least to rent. I can't fork over that much and get no equity in return.

The Zenith is pricey too.

Rental units in Baltimore in general have been going up..a lot. It's certainly not the bargin it was just 5-10 years ago.

While we're at it. Am I the only person shocked that rent in the Railway Express Lofts building range from $1600-$2000? At least you can save on an alarm clock. The 5am Acela Express should do the trick.

No, I was absolutely floored when I saw what the rents where there. I have a feeling that they are going to sound proof the unites there, otherwise they wouldn't have any takers, especially given the fact that the JFX is right there too! The Cresent in Fells Point is very pricey too but I think that they might get a lot of the Hopkins people there who are perhaps used to NY or Boston rents that they would find these a steal.

Huck

October 17th, 2007, 08:16 PM

While we're at it. Am I the only person shocked that rent in the Railway Express Lofts building range from $1600-$2000? At least you can save on an alarm clock. The 5am Acela Express should do the trick.

Are they intended to be both artist work space AND living space. I guess if it is for your home and your work, $1600 - $2000 isn't as bad. But then there is the whole starving artist thing.

waj0527

October 17th, 2007, 10:18 PM

quabex

October 17th, 2007, 11:14 PM

I don't think so.

These are being marketed as "luxury loft apartments with a easy commute to Washington, Philadelphia and Aberdeen." Or so says the website.

I'm not sure why they threw Aberdeen in there. Aside from the Proving Ground there really isn't a big employer up there.

the proving ground is EXACTLY why they threw that in there. they're marketing to BRAC transplants, many of whom will be coming from norhtern new jersey where rail travel is common.

sammyj

October 19th, 2007, 12:33 AM

What does a unit cost? i purchased a unit at One National Harbor and wonder if the costs are comparable.

waj0527

October 19th, 2007, 03:56 PM

^^As far as I know, the Four Seasons hasn't released a price schedule for its residential units. Units at the Ritz-Carlton are currently listed between $3-6 million. Units at The Pinnacle are listed at $7.2 million. The Four Seasons will offer better water and city views than any of its competitors and is in a neighborhood with a ton of cachet, so I expect their units to average $3-4 million with the penthouse going for close to $10 million. All of this depends on if the market makes a slight turn for the better in 2010.

Just my $0.02.

pennster

October 19th, 2007, 09:39 PM

What does a unit cost? i purchased a unit at One National Harbor and wonder if the costs are comparable.

You're trying to compare two completely different markets. One condo, in a downtown Baltimore skyscraper with views of the Inner Harbor; the second condo, in a suburban mid-rise in a (relatively) cheap county with views of the Potomac River and Alexandria. My guess (and it really is just a guess) is that the luxury higher-floor and penthouse units of the Four Seasons will be more expensive than those of One National Harbor, but that overall the smaller luxury units at Nat'l Harbor will outpace those of the Four Seasons due to the differences between the DC and B'more markets.

hello345

October 29th, 2007, 07:53 AM

Is This project still moving along well? Any updated construction pics?

30 Floors Up

October 29th, 2007, 04:31 PM

From yesterday.
http://www.baltimoreguy.com/photogallery/02%20Baltimore%20Buildings/13%20Downtown%20Construction/Four%20Seasons%2003.jpg

waj0527

October 29th, 2007, 08:03 PM

Look at that sky. 180-degree turnaround from late last week.

Maudibjr

October 29th, 2007, 08:43 PM

Havn't been to harbor east in a while, looks like a lot of progress has been made.

For the size of the garage that they want, that hole is going to have to be much, much deeper. Probabably deeper than the one at the new UM-medical building.

Bmore10

December 8th, 2007, 03:55 AM

Any new developments at Harbor East? New pictures anyone?

DrzBrooklynChulo90

December 8th, 2007, 04:16 AM

Any new developments at Harbor East? New pictures anyone?

If you want clear,excellent pictures,you might want to ask 30 Floors Up since he gets the greatest shots of it all the time.I THINK they're ALMOST done digging.If you want to get an aerial view of what they're doing everyday,you can visit this website "http://armadahoffler.com/fsCamera.html".I think they're either down to the 4th or 5th floor which means that they're ALMOST done!

DrzBrooklynChulo90

December 8th, 2007, 04:21 AM

Or just visit www.BaltimoreGuy.com if you don't like visiting that site but he doesnt update his pictures everyday like ArmadaHoffler does.But I really love the pictures that he takes,they're excellent!Great Job 30 Floors Up!Hey,44 Floors up sounds better for the Four Seasons..lol!

dtzeigler

January 9th, 2008, 02:42 AM

Looks taller on sber.com to me....

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/rabitaluna69/harboreastnew.jpg

...in fact, it's looking positively huge. :)

WIll this building be taller then any of the towers in downtown?

DrzBrooklynChulo90

January 9th, 2008, 02:47 AM

WIll this building be taller then any of the towers in downtown?

It'll become the third tallest building in Baltimore,but not the tallest.Legg Mason currently holds that title.It'll be 494ft tall(The Four Seasons) which will be a foot taller than the William Donald Schaefer Tower which currently is Baltimore's 3rd Tallest.When the Four Seasons Tops Out(2010),it'll take the title away from the William Donald Schaefer Tower as the 3rd tallest building in Baltimore.

DrzBrooklynChulo90

January 9th, 2008, 06:28 AM

My Information is based off of Emporis.com which isnt always 100% accurate.They've been really slow and really backed up on their information lately.

Jkosmides

January 9th, 2008, 08:50 PM

there is alot of activity around there... looks like they have fully started the point. Any slated date its all suppose to be finished up?

And my .02... there needs to be alot more affordable housing around this area... its rediculous how costs are shooting through the ceiling

DrzBrooklynChulo90

January 9th, 2008, 11:44 PM

Is it even possible to build a 350ft tower +5 levels of underground parking garage in less than a year?All sources say that the Legg Mason tower will be complete by 2009 but doesnt really say WHEN in 2009.I'd highly doubt that it'll be completed by early 2009.If it will be completed in early 2009, that would be pretty impressive.

hpal3

January 10th, 2008, 04:09 AM

They need 6'! I don't understand why they settle for 494'

Give us 500':)

StevenW

January 10th, 2008, 04:31 AM

^^ Yeah, I know. That's because it's being built in Baltimore.

DrzBrooklynChulo90

January 10th, 2008, 04:58 AM

^^ Yeah, I know. That's because it's being built in Baltimore.

^^:lol: I seriously believe that Baltimore has a height restriction.Seems like 529ft is the limit:bash:

Bmore10

January 15th, 2008, 04:36 AM

yeah emporis is pretty bad. I mean just look where it shows Baltimore is on the map (looks like somewhere in south carolina or maybe georgia).

DrzBrooklynChulo90

January 15th, 2008, 04:43 AM

yeah emporis is pretty bad. I mean just look where it shows Baltimore is on the map (looks like somewhere in south carolina or maybe georgia).

:lol:I noticed that too which is pretty pathetic if you ask me.And it seems like every other city is exactly where its supposed to be besides Baltimore!IS THERE ANY OTHER SITE BESIDES EMPORIS THAT HAS UP-TO-DATE AND ACCURATE INFORMATION?EMPORIS IS REALLY TICKING ME OFF!!It STILL has 414 Water St as UNDER CONSTRUCTION and it doesnt even have Legg Mason/4 Seasons as UNDER CONSTRUCTION yet!!:bash:

hello345

January 26th, 2008, 08:17 AM

Any updates?

StevenW

January 26th, 2008, 10:04 PM

^^
none that i know of, other than it should start rising soon....................

Exrexnotex

February 8th, 2008, 09:29 PM

So , I went to Whole foods this morning and remember I had my camera with me , so I decided to take some pictures of the area. The only problem was that my camera's battery life was low , almost dead , still I managed to take a few pictures. I walked around the Legg/4S construction site ( a lot of movement ) but you couldn't see much through the fence. I talked to one of the workers ( hoping he let me snap a few shots of the site ) but he was going back to work. I asked him what they were building , he told me about what we already know ( Legg Tower 24 stories , Four Seasons 45 stories ) my one and only regret is that I forgot to ask him the completion date :bash:anyways hope you guys like them.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/Exrexnotex/Balti003-1.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/Exrexnotex/Balti007.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/Exrexnotex/Balti014.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/Exrexnotex/Balti016.jpg

StevenW

February 8th, 2008, 11:12 PM

Boy, I can't wait till they start rising!! :yes: :) Very exciting stuff!!!! :)

MasonsInquiries

February 9th, 2008, 02:26 AM

^^wow, 24 floors and 45 floors. also glad to see baltimore get more "glassy" towers. our skyline's gonna' look super after this is all done!!

Northern

February 9th, 2008, 06:20 AM

^^:banana: very exciting stuff

marc1969

February 10th, 2008, 05:05 PM

Great to see an actual crane there!:banana:

StevenW

February 10th, 2008, 05:08 PM

^^ yes, and it's all up from here..... ;) :D

MarkR01

February 10th, 2008, 05:17 PM

All those Legg Mason employees on Light Street + the middle/back office employees from the suburbs will put a lot of breath and energy into the area, well atleast M-F. The eating locales will have large amounts of office workers eating for lunch, even the more expensive ones (Charleston, Cinghiale) due to the large spread of incomes in Legg Mason.

StevenW

February 10th, 2008, 05:25 PM

Yes, it should be much more energetic. :)

k25150

February 10th, 2008, 05:33 PM

All those Legg Mason employees on Light Street + the middle/back office employees from the suburbs will put a lot of breath and energy into the area, well atleast M-F. Its going to be pretty polarized as my dad said it: lower employees eating lunch in their office/getting it from Whole Foods, middle employees eating at the deli and sushi, and all of the executives eating at Oceanaire, Cinghiale and of course, the Charleston (which was recently mentioned of in the Wall Street Journal).

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. As if executives won't eat at Whole Foods or the deli. I guess the back office people making 40K don't ever eat sushi either huh?

MarkR01

February 10th, 2008, 07:03 PM

Below post

MarkR01

February 10th, 2008, 07:18 PM

[QUOTE=MarkR01;18321253]Jeezus, I wasn't being that serious, it was just a quote that my dad said when we were walking down there. Calm down, my dad was just joking around. The point was that the large range of employees will inject money into all the restaurants in the area, not just a few. I'm just saying that certain employees will eat at certain places more than other employees, like instead of Charleston being empty, it will be populated by executives on certain days, as will the deli by the same executives. The executives and their income will allow them to eat at more restaurants putting more money into HE, as will the higher-end travelers that stay at the FS. Anyway, my father, an high-level executive at T. Rowe tells me: "the executives who go to the Charleston are just as excited about Five Guys across the street".

StevenW

February 10th, 2008, 07:50 PM

^^ I love 5 Guys! :D It's a weakness. :D

MarkR01

February 10th, 2008, 08:00 PM

^^ I love 5 Guys! :D It's a weakness. :D

Very true, I have a weakness for good hamburgers:

Theres the gourmet burgers, particularly the one at Cheesecake Factory (great)

but then, you just want to get down and get messy at Five Guys (just as great)

k25150

February 10th, 2008, 10:36 PM

Sorry. Didn't realize the sarcasm. Don't forget the retail and restaurants in the 4 Seasons. They will add nicely to the current mix.

MarkR01

February 11th, 2008, 01:31 AM

Sorry. Didn't realize the sarcasm. Don't forget the retail and restaurants in the 4 Seasons. They will add nicely to the current mix.

One of the pitfalls of the internet, is that you cannot designate sarcasm, without actually saying it, but I had only the best intentions

k25150

February 11th, 2008, 01:47 AM

Right or use those retarded smiley faces which I refuse to do.

Darryl

February 11th, 2008, 05:56 AM

I love the "emoticons"! I think they help convey a mood or intention in a way that words can't.

StevenW

February 11th, 2008, 10:24 PM

Right or use those retarded smiley faces which I refuse to do.

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

StevenW

February 11th, 2008, 10:31 PM

I love the "emoticons"! I think they help convey a mood or intention in a way that words can't.

That's exactly why I use them. They may seem childish. At least I know better. I am generally a pretty nice guy. I try to convey that to everyone face to face. Since we obviously can't see each other on this forum, these emoticons help convey, as you said, my mood or intention of my comments that I believe someone might think different if they were not in use.

Phee

February 12th, 2008, 03:47 PM

Michael Beatty was there last night, and gave a talk about neighborhood development, and I took some notes, which I don't have with me now, but here are some of the things I remember off the top of my head.

Legg building is on target for August/September 2009 move-in. Hole in ground should be filled up with parking garage by early summer '08. 4 Seasons which is larger and more complex is on track for late spring early summer 2010.

Major law firm not yet disclosed has signed a lease for a significant amount of space in the new Legg tower, and discussions are ongoing with a second law firm.

High end shoe store from Georgetown will be moving into the Vue sales office at Spinnaker Bay shortly

Handbags in the City will be moving to a larger location

CVS will be opening soon

Retail and residential at the new complex will be much higher-end than what HE currently has, and Neiman Marcus was mentioned as the dream tenant, although efforts to lure them to the neighborhood have been unsuccessful.

H&S Properties, or some related entity is in the process of taking over responsibility for all of the public areas of Harbor East from the city (I believe he said forming a BID or Business Improvement District) so that it can be cleaner, nicer and better maintained than other areas of the city.

If I get to my notes and see that I left anything significant out, I'll follow up.

Gsol

February 12th, 2008, 04:19 PM

Michael Beatty was there last night, and gave a talk about neighborhood development, and I took some notes, which I don't have with me now, but here are some of the things I remember off the top of my head.

High end shoe store from Georgetown will be moving into the Vue sales office at Spinnaker Bay shortly

Handbags in the City will be moving to a larger location

CVS will be opening soon

Retail and residential at the new complex will be much higher-end than what HE currently has, and Neiman Marcus was mentioned as the dream tenant, although efforts to lure them to the neighborhood have been unsuccessful.

H
If I get to my notes and see that I left anything significant out, I'll follow up.

Where is there space large enough for Neiman-Marcus or any other Dept Store?

Phee

February 12th, 2008, 04:48 PM

Where is there space large enough for Neiman-Marcus or any other Dept Store?

I believe he was talking about having them as a tenant in either the Legg or the 4 Seasons tower.

StevenW

February 13th, 2008, 12:13 AM

^^ That would absolutely make my day!

chromebowler

February 13th, 2008, 02:49 AM

Phee

February 13th, 2008, 04:57 PM

How about a target? Sure, it's not a glam shop like Marcus but super convenient and sure to have booming business.

edit:

Oh we're talking in the four seasons now... yeah Marcus might be a better fit than target. Although a Target in the IH or HE would be freakin sweet. Whatever happened to the one that was slated to go in the Vue complex?

There's a CVS coming soon, but I hadn't heard about a Target. Would be sweet, though.

Xander21

February 13th, 2008, 07:34 PM

How about a target? Sure, it's not a glam shop like Marcus but super convenient and sure to have booming business.

edit:

Oh we're talking in the four seasons now... yeah Marcus might be a better fit than target. Although a Target in the IH or HE would be freakin sweet. Whatever happened to the one that was slated to go in the Vue complex?

IMO a Target would be perfect for the Superblock. It would be an anchor store that workers and residents would flock to and instantly inject the area with tons of life. Harbor East is going for a much more upscale feel I think.

cgunna

February 13th, 2008, 07:52 PM

I'd rather see a Macy's than a Nieman Marcus.

PeterSmith

February 13th, 2008, 10:32 PM

Speaking of Harbor East retail, how is the Landmark Theatre doing? Has it been seeing large crowds?

Xander21

February 13th, 2008, 11:02 PM

Speaking of Harbor East retail, how is the Landmark Theatre doing? Has it been seeing large crowds?

I've been there 3 times so far, most recently this past Sunday to see Michael Clayton. It was playing in one of their smaller theaters, but pretty much every seat was filled. Seems like it's doing okay so far.

Darryl

February 13th, 2008, 11:52 PM

I'd rather see a Macy's than a Nieman Marcus.

I'd rather see a Nordstrom's than a Nieman Marcus or a Macy's.

Nordstrom's is more upscale than Macy's (which is kinda boring to me kinda just like a JC Penney's), but less ridiculously upscale as a Nieman Marcus (which no mere mortal could afford).

Darryl

February 13th, 2008, 11:55 PM

Speaking of Harbor East retail, how is the Landmark Theatre doing? Has it been seeing large crowds?

I'm not sure about how business is doing there, but I saw "Juno" there last week and loved it (the theatre and the movie). It was pretty dead there that night, but it was on a Monday. The facility is great.

MasonsInquiries

February 14th, 2008, 04:09 AM

I've been there 3 times so far, most recently this past Sunday to see Michael Clayton. It was playing in one of their smaller theaters, but pretty much every seat was filled. Seems like it's doing okay so far.
yeah, my wife & i went to the saturday show (michael clayton). loved it; it was filled to capacity!!:okay:

absolutrhaps

February 14th, 2008, 08:08 AM

I'd rather see a Nordstrom's than a Nieman Marcus or a Macy's.

Nordstrom's is more upscale than Macy's (which is kinda boring to me kinda just like a JC Penney's), but less ridiculously upscale as a Nieman Marcus (which no mere mortal could afford).

I agree, Nordstrom's is the better choice. The only place I think a NM would work in this general area is where its already located (DC).

vivo

February 14th, 2008, 11:06 AM

I agree, Nordstrom's is the better choice. The only place I think a NM would work in this general area is where its already located (DC).
another reason to hate dc. mere mortals do not live therel:crazy:

cgunna

February 14th, 2008, 04:46 PM

I'd rather see a Nordstrom's than a Nieman Marcus or a Macy's.

Nordstrom's is more upscale than Macy's (which is kinda boring to me kinda just like a JC Penney's), but less ridiculously upscale as a Nieman Marcus (which no mere mortal could afford).

Nope. Not even.

Macy's has different levels of stores. Many of which are just as upscale, if not moreso that Nordstrom. The store in The Gallery in Dallas, has a full blown Louis Vuitton boutique in it. Macy's provides for a far far more diverse shopping selection that Nordstrom or Nieman Marcus. If you want yuppy, you can get it. But if you want a Christmas gift for your Aunt Bea, you can get that too.

That and Nordstrom has already told the City 'no thanks.'

Darryl

February 14th, 2008, 07:08 PM

Nope. Not even.

Macy's has different levels of stores. Many of which are just as upscale, if not moreso that Nordstrom. The store in The Gallery in Dallas, has a full blown Louis Vuitton boutique in it. Macy's provides for a far far more diverse shopping selection that Nordstrom or Nieman Marcus. If you want yuppy, you can get it. But if you want a Christmas gift for your Aunt Bea, you can get that too.

That and Nordstrom has already told the City 'no thanks.'

Oh, I didn't know that. I've just seen the Macy's around here in the malls. There's nothing special about them. They are just the same as a Penney's. All the former Hecht's are Macy's now. There nothing upscale about them.

Eerik

February 14th, 2008, 09:48 PM

With two Neiman Marcus stores already in the DC area, I can't see them opening a Harbor East location anytime soon. The closest Neiman Marcus we have is a clearance center located at the Arundel Mills Mall.

Another problem a Harbor East Neiman Marcus shopper would encounter is means of payment. Not just coughing up the means to pay $700 for a pair of slacks, but how to pay for the purchase altogether at the cashier.

Not sure how many of you actually shop at Neiman Marcus, but those who do know they don't accept Visa, MasterCard, Discover, etc. It's either cash or American Express. They might still have their own credit card, but I'm not so sure about that and, I haven't seen anyone pay with a check at Neiman Marcus for years...

(At the Tysons store I once saw what I assumed to be a teenaged son of some Middle Eastern (Saudi?) prince whip out what must have been thousands of dollars in $100 bills. He purchased a couple of shirts and a pair of socks. Then he was whisked off to his car by his "entourage.")

Imagine once word gets out on Baltimore streets: go to Neiman Marcus. Folks shop there with cash, and lots of it. I suspect that little newsstand on Central and Aliceanna will see a significant drop in crime.

But at any rate, I'd consider it to be a major retailing coup for Baltimore if we saw a Macy's -- or even a JCPenney -- open anywhere near downtown.

Gsol

February 14th, 2008, 10:03 PM

cgunna

February 14th, 2008, 10:49 PM

^^Nieman's does still have a store charge card. And yeah, you can only still use cash or Amex if your not using the card.

Eerik

February 14th, 2008, 10:53 PM

How about Bloomindales? It is now part of the same ownership as Macys.

I thought the Towson Hechts could have been converted to Bloomies rather than Macys. I believe when Shaffer was major he tried to lure Bloomingdales to the site now occupied by the Gallery.

That was my era in Baltimore. Yes, Bloomingdales was courted for the Gallery as a department store. We hoped it would add sparkle to the (then) general declining state of retailing in the city. We still had a Hutzler's department store two blocks away at Charles and Pratt, and a lot of what the Gallery hoped to do was (like two bookends) create a new base for retailing in the downtown financial district. Cash in on the local workforce and the tourist market, since Bloomies in and of itself would have also been a great regional draw, much like the opening of Harborplace had been in 1980, since the only other closest Bloomies are in the DC area (one at White Flint Mall, the other at Tysons).

But Bloomies balked. All the focus group research and data compilation we did went down the drain. Bloomies opted to open a new store in Boca Raton instead. (No surprise there: they followed the income.)

Maybe regional retailing in the Baltimore area has matured in the last twenty years, where there is more cash to be spent. I do not know. But looking at what's happening nationally, I would say it's quite the opposite: there is a general contraction occurring as margins are decreasing.

I am somewhat pessimistic about the notion for additional high end retailing opening anytime soon: downtown or even in the suburbs. Didn't Saks in Owings Mills shutter their doors? Likewise, the only other high end retailer we have in the region is Nordstrom, and the last I heard, their store sales have been down sharply for several years now (minus Annapolis Mall, which in many ways is a part, and at the same time separate of the region). So why would they consider opening downtown, where there are even more obstacles to profitable retailing?

Either way, I'd consider it a coup for Baltimore if even a "lower end" department store opening anywhere near, or in downtown.

Darryl

February 15th, 2008, 01:37 AM

We still had a Hutzler's department store two blocks away at Charles and Pratt

There was a Hutzler's at Charles and Pratt? Where was it exactly (which corner)?

Hugh Jaramillo

February 15th, 2008, 02:50 AM

There was a Hutzler's at Charles and Pratt? Where was it exactly (which corner)?

It wasn't located at Charles and Pratt at all. I was located on the southwest corner of Charles and Lombard. It was in that blocky gray 2 story box like appendage of what is now the Bank of America Center. It used to be referred to as the "Hutzler's Palace" store and it had a brass elevator that took you from one level to the next. It wasn't very large at all and had almost exlusively women's apparel. I was surprised it lasted as long as it did. But I do think that most high end retailers scale back their stores for Baltimore. I remember the Saks in Owings Mills had very limited selection and of course the prices of most of the things they did sell where way above what Baltimore could support, so that pretty much put paid to that. I also remember people saying that they would still shop at the Bethesda store because the selection was so much better. I always roll my eyes when I hear that something like a Nieman's or Tiffany's would open up in Baltimore because I am sure the same thing would happen to stores like that that happend to Saks. However a Foreman Mills would probably do very well in a place like Mondamin Mall!

scando

February 15th, 2008, 05:30 AM

It wasn't located at Charles and Pratt at all. I was located on the southwest corner of Charles and Lombard. It was in that blocky gray 2 story box like appendage of what is now the Bank of America Center. It used to be referred to as the "Hutzler's Palace" store and it had a brass elevator that took you from one level to the next. It wasn't very large at all and had almost exlusively women's apparel. I was surprised it lasted as long as it did. But I do think that most high end retailers scale back their stores for Baltimore. I remember the Saks in Owings Mills had very limited selection and of course the prices of most of the things they did sell where way above what Baltimore could support, so that pretty much put paid to that. I also remember people saying that they would still shop at the Bethesda store because the selection was so much better. I always roll my eyes when I hear that something like a Nieman's or Tiffany's would open up in Baltimore because I am sure the same thing would happen to stores like that that happend to Saks. However a Foreman Mills would probably do very well in a place like Mondamin Mall!

There's a fairly detailed account of all this, along with some photos on http://www.btco.net/ghosts/Buildings/deptstores/deptstores.html. The Palace, however, referred to the old, low rise building on Howard and then later, the short lived high end store at Howard and Lexington (NW corner). BTW, this is a fascinating site on old Baltimore relics.

Eerik

February 15th, 2008, 07:07 AM

It wasn't located at Charles and Pratt at all. I was located on the southwest corner of Charles and Lombard. It was in that blocky gray 2 story box like appendage of what is now the Bank of America Center. It used to be referred to as the "Hutzler's Palace" store and it had a brass elevator that took you from one level to the next. It wasn't very large at all and had almost exlusively women's apparel. I was surprised it lasted as long as it did. But I do think that most high end retailers scale back their stores for Baltimore. I remember the Saks in Owings Mills had very limited selection and of course the prices of most of the things they did sell where way above what Baltimore could support, so that pretty much put paid to that. I also remember people saying that they would still shop at the Bethesda store because the selection was so much better. I always roll my eyes when I hear that something like a Nieman's or Tiffany's would open up in Baltimore because I am sure the same thing would happen to stores like that that happend to Saks. However a Foreman Mills would probably do very well in a place like Mondamin Mall!

The unit block of Charles and Pratt. (Or Hanover and Pratt, Lombard and Hanover, Charles and Lombard, etc.) It was part of what then was called the "Convention Center Mall." Hutzler's was part of the Equitable Bank Center tower. A few years later, the law firm of Melnicove, Kaufman, Weiner, Smouse & Garbis were the lead tenant and co-developer of tower two which rose directly above the department store. For the most part, all traces of the mall are now gone. However, the original Hutzler's Palace store is still visible on Howard Street, a few blocks west. It too (the Palace store) has been modified of the original, in particular the northern Clay Street edge.

DrzBrooklynChulo90

February 17th, 2008, 06:01 PM

Is it me or are they already starting to pour the cement into the four seasons/legg mason site?Look at their website and live cam and tell me the answer because I really cant tell if its cement or not.

Exrexnotex

February 17th, 2008, 11:44 PM

^^ What's the site ?! Also, didn't we hear something about the Legg tower starting to rise in the summer ? that's my guess, give it 4-5 months to start rising.

sdeclue

February 17th, 2008, 11:50 PM

A couple comments. Could they already be ahead of schedule on Legg Mason because of the warm winter and lack of snow?

Also, are they constructing the Four Seasons at the same time or will that occur later. I know delivery on that building won't be for a year or so after Legg but it is also significantly bigger/taller.

MasonsInquiries

February 18th, 2008, 01:28 AM

^^i would say yes, they are very far ahead of schedule. the 4S hotel will be built later. right now, they're focusing their attention on the LM tower because it ha a 2009 deadline.

DrzBrooklynChulo90

February 18th, 2008, 02:50 AM

^^i would say yes, they are very far ahead of schedule. the 4S hotel will be built later. right now, they're focusing their attention on the LM tower because it ha a 2009 deadline.

Im not so sure if they're AHEAD of schedule.The completion date for the digging was supposed to be done a while ago and they're still digging.I don't know whats taking them so long.But yes, they're focusing more on Legg Mason right now since they do have a 2009 deadline.The Four Seasons can be completed whenever.The Website is www.armadahoffler.com/fsCamera.html

MarkR01

February 18th, 2008, 02:55 AM

That and Nordstrom has already told the City 'no thanks.'

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/stories/2006/02/27/story1.html

Exrexnotex

February 18th, 2008, 03:00 AM

^^ Nordstrom says no to Downtown , there is a difference between downtown and Harbor east , so I think there is a good chance of bringing Nordstrom to the area . I would rather have a Nordstrom than a Nieman Marcus , I can afford a few things lol. If it's successful , another upscale department store can come to the area , perhaps at HP.

pennster

February 18th, 2008, 04:19 AM

Oh, I didn't know that. I've just seen the Macy's around here in the malls. There's nothing special about them. They are just the same as a Penney's. All the former Hecht's are Macy's now. There nothing upscale about them.

JC Penney is the bottom rung of the department store ladder.

Macy's caters its stores to the demographics surrounding it. So if you're not seeing anything "special" (and I'm guessing by "special" you mean containing high-end goods), then you're probably not in a very rich part of town. In general, Macy's caters to an upper-middle class demographic, which is why you'll see a Penney's in the same mall as a Macy's many times--because they're targeting different crowds.

waj0527

February 18th, 2008, 03:33 PM

Shopping in Baltimore can really suck....if you stick to department stores.

My store of preference is J. Crew. I was ecstatic when the J. Crew at Towson opened. When I get there, I was so disappointed. The Men's Shop at that store sucks and I'm not going to Annapolis to see what they have to offer. Luckily, the G'town store isn't too far. I'm in Atlanta and New York often enough that I can get my fill at Lennox Square and Rockefeller or SoHo.

Neither Macys nor Nordstrom in Towson arr all that great. In fact, th Macy's down right sucks. I'm not looking for Gucci, Fendi, Cavali, De La Renta and Prada when I go there, just adaquate customer service and you can't seem to get that in either of those stores.

As an aside, I went into SGH at Towson the other day, totally prepared to spend at least $200-300 on a pair of shades. The girl who "helped" me was incredibly stupid. The final straw was this: I asked if there was a Sun Glass Hut International in the mall. She said...Ummm, I think we're SGH International. I said no, you aren't, thanked her for her "service" and walked out.

Harbor East has really become my friend. You can find some really good things in shops in that neighborhood and Mt. Washington, Charles Village and Mt. Vernon.

Darryl

February 18th, 2008, 05:24 PM

JC Penney is the bottom rung of the department store ladder.

Macy's caters its stores to the demographics surrounding it. So if you're not seeing anything "special" (and I'm guessing by "special" you mean containing high-end goods), then you're probably not in a very rich part of town. In general, Macy's caters to an upper-middle class demographic, which is why you'll see a Penney's in the same mall as a Macy's many times--because they're targeting different crowds.

By "special" I mean the look of the store, the service, and the items. For instance, Nordstrom's store looks different than the other department stores. It's more open, there's a grand piano with a player, the service is second to none (1000% better than any other dept. store in MD), the employees are wearing suits, they have "exclusive" fragrances in the perfume/cologne dept. made only for Nordstrom, I can get $200 Diesel jeans there, etc...

How many Macy's can there be in the Baltimore area? I'm sure we're speaking of the same ones. I'm primarily speaking of Towson, Owings Mills, and Columbia. I guess they're not "rich parts of town" if you're comparing with the DC area, but they're not mired in poverty.

Macy's doesn't look "special" using my examples above. They are former Hecht's stores that look no different except the name changed. Maybe the prices are higher, but that's not different enough for me.

Silver Springer

February 18th, 2008, 08:34 PM

By "special" I mean the look of the store, the service, and the items. For instance, Nordstrom's store looks different than the other department stores. It's more open, there's a grand piano with a player, the service is second to none (1000% better than any other dept. store in MD), the employees are wearing suits, they have "exclusive" fragrances in the perfume/cologne dept. made only for Nordstrom, I can get $200 Diesel jeans there, etc...

How many Macy's can there be in the Baltimore area? I'm sure we're speaking of the same ones. I'm primarily speaking of Towson, Owings Mills, and Columbia. I guess they're not "rich parts of town" if you're comparing with the DC area, but they're not mired in poverty.

Macy's doesn't look "special" using my examples above. They are former Hecht's stores that look no different except the name changed. Maybe the prices are higher, but that's not different enough for me.

I think the Bloomingdales in Chevy Chase is Maryland's most exclusive dept store "Chevy Chic".