EE good and bad neighbours [Archive] - Page 3

Marek.kvackaj

October 3rd, 2007, 08:59 PM

Issued by The World Bank
GNI per capita 2006 Atlas method and PPP method
(revised September 2007)

GNI takes into account all production in the domestic economy (i.e., GDP) plus the net flows of factor income (such as rents, profits, and labor income) from abroad. The Atlas method smoothes exchange rate fluctuations by using a three year moving average, price-adjusted conversion factor.

Purchasing power parity (PPP) conversion factors take into account differences in the relative prices of goods and services—particularly non-tradables—and therefore provide a better overall measure of the real value of output produced by an economy compared to other economies. PPP GNI is measured in current international dollars which, in principal, have the same purchasing power as a dollar spent on GNI in the U.S. economy. Because PPPs provide a better measure of the standard of living of residents of an economy,

GNI per capita 2006, Atlas method and PPP Purchasing Atlas power parity
methodology (international
Ranking Economy US dollars Ranking Economy US dollars
1 Luxembourg 76,040 1 Luxembourg 59,560
2 Bermuda .. a 2 Bermuda .. a
3 Norway 66,530 3 Liechtenstein .. a
4 Liechtenstein .. a 4 United States 44,260
5 Channel Islands a 5 Norway 43,820
6 Switzerland 57,230 6 Channel Islands .. a
7 Denmark 51,700 7 Switzerland 40,930
8 Iceland 50,580 8 Hong Kong, China 38,200
9 Ireland 45,580 9 Netherlands 37,580
10 United States 44,970 10 Iceland 36,560
11 San Marino .. a 11 Denmark 36,460
12 Sweden 43,580 12 Ireland 35,900
13 Netherlands 42,670 13 San Marino .. a
14 Qatar .. a 14 United Kingdom 35,580
15 Finland 40,650 15 Finland 35,150
16 United Kingdom 40,180 16 Austria 35,130
17 Austria 39,590 17 Belgium 35,090
18 Belgium 38,600 18 Sweden 35,070
19 Japan 38,410 19 Qatar .. a
20 Germany 36,620 20 Canada 34,610
22 France 36,550 21 Australia 34,060
23 Canada 36,170 22 France 33,740
24 Australia 35,990 24 Japan 33,150
28 Italy 32,020 27 Germany 31,830
29 Kuwait 30,630 a 28 Singapore 31,710
31 Singapore 29,320 30 Italy 30,550
32 Hong Kong 28,460 31 Kuwait 29,200 a, c
33 Spain 27,570 33 Spain 28,030
34 New Zealand 27,250 35 New Zealand 27,220
36 United Arab Emirates 23,950 36 United Arab Emirates 23,990
40 Greece 21,690 38 Israel 25,480 a
42 Cyprus 18,430 a 42 Greece 24,560
46 Israel 18,580 a 43 Slovenia 23,970
47 Slovenia 18,890 45 Korea, Rep. 23,800
48 Portugal 18,100 46 Cyprus 21,490 a
49 Korea, Rep. 17,690 48 Portugal 21,580
51 Bahrain 14,370 a 49 Czech Republic 21,470
54 Malta 13,610 a 50 Bahrain 18,770 a
55 Trinidad and Tobago 13,340 54 Malta 18,630 a
56 Saudi Arabia 12,510 a 56 Hungary 18,290
57 Czech Republic 12,680 57 Slovak Republic 17,600
59 Estonia 11,410 58 Estonia 17,540
60 Antigua and Barbuda 11,210 59 Saudi Arabia 16,620 a, c
61 Hungary 10,950 60 Seychelles 16,560
63 Oman 9,070 a 62 Trinidad and Tobago 16,260
64 Slovak Republic 9,870 63 Oman 14,570 a, c
65 Croatia 9,330 65 Argentina 15,390
67 St. Kitts and Nevis 8,840 66 Latvia 15,350
68 Seychelles 8,650 67 Lithuania 14,930
69 Equatorial Guinea 8,250 68 Poland 14,830
70 Poland 8,190 70 Croatia 13,680
71 Latvia 8,100 71 Mauritius 13,510
72 Palau 7,990 72 Antigua and Barbuda 13,500
73 Lithuania 7,870 74 St. Kitts and Nevis 12,690
73 Mexico 7,870 76 Botswana 12,250
75 Libya 7,380 77 South Africa 11,710 c
76 Chile 6,980 78 Russian Federation 11,630
77 Venezuela, RB 6,070 79 Mexico 11,410
78 Botswana 5,900 80 Malaysia 11,300
79 Russian Federation 5,780 81 Chile 11,270
80 Lebanon 5,490 82 Uruguay 11,150
80 Malaysia 5,490 83 Costa Rica 10,770 c
82 Mauritius 5,450 84 Equatorial Guinea 10,150 c
83 Turkey 5,400 85 Bulgaria 10,140
84 South Africa 5,390 86 Romania 9,820
85 Uruguay 5,310 87 Thailand 9,140
86 Argentina 5,150 88 Turkey 9,060
87 St. Lucia 5,110 89 Kiribati 8,970
88 Gabon 5,000 90 Belarus 8,810
89 Costa Rica 4,980 91 Brazil 8,800
90 Panama 4,890 92 Tonga 8,580 c
91 Romania 4,850 93 Iran, Islamic Rep. 8,490
92 Brazil 4,730 93 Tunisia 8,490
93 Grenada 4,420 95 Dominican Republic 8,290 c
94 Bulgaria 3,990 96 Suriname 8,120
95 Dominica 3,960 97 Namibia 8,110 c
96 St. Vincent and the Grenadines 3,930 98 Micronesia, Fed. Sts. 7,830
97 Serbia 3,910 d 100 Grenada 7,810
98 Montenegro 3,860 101 Kazakhstan 7,780
99 Kazakhstan 3,790 102 China 7,740 e
101 Belize 3,650 104 Panama 7,680
102 Jamaica 3,480 105 Colombia 7,620 c
103 Belarus 3,380 106 Macedonia, FYR 7,610
104 Fiji 3,300 107 Ukraine 7,520
105 Namibia 3,230 109 Venezuela, RB 7,440
106 Suriname 3,200 110 St. Vincent and the Grenadines 7,010
107 Macedonia, FYR 3,060 111 St. Lucia 6,970
108 Algeria 3,030 112 Algeria 6,900 c
109 Iran, Islamic Rep. 3,000 113 Belize 6,650
109 Marshall Islands 3,000 114 Dominica 6,490
111 Thailand 2,990 117 Samoa 6,400
112 Bosnia and Herzegovina 2,980 119 Jordan 6,210
113 Tunisia 2,970 120 Fiji 6,200
114 Albania 2,960 121 Peru 6,080
115 Peru 2,920 122 Cape Verde 5,980 c
116 Dominican Republic 2,850 122 Philippines 5,980
117 Ecuador 2,840 124 Azerbaijan 5,960
119 Colombia 2,740 126 Armenia 5,890
120 Maldives 2,680 127 Albania 5,840
121 Jordan 2,660 128 Bhutan 5,690
122 Guatemala 2,640 129 Lebanon 5,460
123 El Salvador 2,540 130 El Salvador 5,340 c
124 Swaziland 2,430 131 Gabon 5,310
125 Micronesia, Fed. Sts. 2,380 132 Swaziland 5,170
126 Samoa 2,270 133 Paraguay 5,070 c
127 Tonga 2,170 134 Sri Lanka 5,010
128 Cape Verde 2,130 135 Morocco 5,000
129 China 2,010 136 Guatemala 4,800 c
130 Angola 1,980 137 Egypt, Arab Rep. 4,690
131 Ukraine 1,950 138 Guyana 4,680 c
132 Armenia 1,930 139 Ecuador 4,400
133 Morocco 1,900 140 Lesotho 4,340 c
134 Azerbaijan 1,850 142 Jamaica 4,030
135 Vanuatu 1,710 143 Nicaragua 4,010 c
137 Syrian Arab Republic 1,570 144 Indonesia 3,950
138 Georgia 1,560 145 Syrian Arab Republic 3,930
139 Indonesia 1,420 146 India 3,800 c
139 Philippines 1,420 147 Georgia 3,690
141 Bhutan 1,410 148 Honduras 3,540 c
142 Paraguay 1,400 150 Vietnam 3,300
143 Egypt, Arab Rep. 1,350 151 Vanuatu 3,280 c
144 Sri Lanka 1,300 152 Cambodia 2,920 c
145 West Bank and Gaza 1,230 a 153 Bolivia 2,890
146 Kiribati 1,230 154 Moldova 2,880
147 Honduras 1,200 157 Ghana 2,640 c
148 Guyana 1,130 159 Mauritania 2,600 c
149 Bolivia 1,100 160 Djibouti 2,540 c
149 Moldova 1,100 f 161 Pakistan 2,500

MORE HERE!! (http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/DATASTATISTICS/0,,contentMDK:20399244~menuPK:1504474~pagePK:64133150~piPK:64133175~theSitePK:239419,00.html)

bgrs

October 3rd, 2007, 09:10 PM

delyan, why do you feed him? Let's see what happens if noone of us replies to him, eh? :)

Делян

October 3rd, 2007, 09:10 PM

Hehehe, and they are all bad and I don't mean to offend- it's just... ;) We also had one for a white Mercedes :lol:

Kv18ZnLFQBc
thanks for the "chalga" update. By the way, chalga is Turkish word, which figures where this "beautiful" music comes from!

bgrs

October 3rd, 2007, 09:12 PM

LOL, that's impossible! I'm sure my post was kinda reply to yours! There is some kind of a time paradox here ahah

dia

October 3rd, 2007, 09:14 PM

thanks for the "chalga" update. By the way, chalga is Turkish word, which figures where this "beautiful" music comes from!

So what? I dislike chalga for many different reasons and none of them is where it came from.

sun&sun

October 3rd, 2007, 09:14 PM

thanks for the "chalga" update. By the way, chalga is Turkish word, which figures where this "beautiful" music comes from!

Not bad, you learned Turkish. Calgi means instrument btw.

kenaney

October 3rd, 2007, 10:15 PM

thanks for the "chalga" update. By the way, chalga is Turkish word, which figures where this "beautiful" music comes from!

I bet you are the first one who's gonna dance if someones plays a good chalga.

"Hop hop hop" komshi :D

new bulgaria

October 3rd, 2007, 10:20 PM

"Hop hop hop" komshi :D

Hop hop hop, opaaaaaaa! :banana:

bgrs

October 3rd, 2007, 10:46 PM

qu'un gars stupide que vous êtes , sun&sun :)

Делян

October 4th, 2007, 12:23 AM

I bet you are the first one who's gonna dance if someones plays a good chalga.

"Hop hop hop" komshi :D
This is me when I hear chalga--> :puke: :puke: :puke:

Dux Uxorum

October 4th, 2007, 12:56 AM

Yes, we left it, and look, 4 other republics have done the same, and another province is trying to leave it, so what's strange by Slovenia leaving it? And as I can see, we're doing much better now. And Okrojsha, who is the ex-Yugoslavia's biggest ally in the EU? Does it happen to be Slovenia? We're the biggest (and the only real) supporter of all the republics. Do you remember what happened a couple of days ago? Our PM sent a letter to the European Commission about accelerated proceeding of Serbia into the EU. You really think there's anyone who cares (more) about Serbia joining EU? We can as well leave you alone, if you wish, struggle on your own, if it will take you to the goal in the next decade.
___________________________________________________________________

Verso, my friend, first of all I think you're missing the fact that I admit being biased when it comes to Slovenian official politics (not the people per se). Frankly, I did not like the way old country disintegrated and official Slovenian attitude at that time (or the lack of consideration for the certain insecurities stemming from the bloody history of WW2) and I do not like their preaching on Kosovo issue today. I also personally do not care for the EU as it is only a temporary idea (the next big war which will inevitably happen sooner or later will prove what I'm writing now) and Balkan was the part of that same Europe long before they even came up with the shitty flag that does not mean anything to me (same goes for the official "monster flag" of Bosnia & Herzegovina as no truly likes it and it's just a pathetic copy of the EU flag). I have no hard feelings for any individual/nation/ethnicity (whatever the definition of these may be) in the world but it is my choice to like or dislike political systems, religions, philosophies, mentalities and any other "isms" that people identify themselves with. Vse najbolse (I hope this makes sense)!

lkm370

October 4th, 2007, 01:19 AM

Oekraїne

October 4th, 2007, 01:29 AM

What are the Turks doing here anyway? They are neither in Eastern Europe, nor Europe at all. And they demonstrate quite annoying behavior being our humble guests here...

Personally nothing against Turkey or Turkish people but this guy ^^ has a point. Turks come here and try to demonstrate that they are superior people compare to EE and start an argument about the stupidest things. They are not in EE or Europe itself so they should start those arguments somewhere over there in Asia.

dejan

October 4th, 2007, 01:35 AM

Turks are victims of other people's hate and negativity towards them, they're always represented in the wrong light, yet when people try to put them down and say awful things about the country and people it seems that it's ok:|

I say it again, i love Turkey:hug:

sun&sun

October 4th, 2007, 01:55 AM

Personally nothing against Turkey or Turkish people but this guy ^^ has a point. Turks come here and try to demonstrate that they are superior people compare to EE and start an argument about the stupidest things. They are not in EE or Europe itself so they should start those arguments somewhere over there in Asia.

No, Turks post something about Istanbul here (only european part) then forumers such as Delyan begin with stupid arguments although we are allowed to open topics about Istanbul here. He goes further and calls us backward etc.. then someone has to make clear that Turkey is at least 10-15 year ahead of Bulgaria and that he doesn't have any reason to be so arrogant. Beside this some forumers have historical complexes that's why Turkey is listed as last country on everyone's list here. I mean no forumer has to like Turkey but one should show respect, if he doesn't he'll get to see the reality.

Dux Uxorum

October 4th, 2007, 01:55 AM

lkm370, you like my posts that much? Always a pleasure to cheer-up a Bosniak brother :clown:

sun&sun

October 4th, 2007, 02:03 AM

here's example:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=499765&page=3

Why doesn't anyone get it? As long as Delyan doesn't stop his racist behaviour and doesn't stop to show me his historical asspains I won't stop either. I won't post anything negative as long as he keeps quiete

sun&sun

October 4th, 2007, 02:11 AM

here another one by Delyan:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=511730&page=5

sun&sun

October 4th, 2007, 02:13 AM

one more Delyan:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=511730&page=4

Can't you guys (including Bulgarian members) see what I mean? I'm just tired that every message I post turns into a "Turkey doesn't belong to Europe" discussion because of this guy. I don't hate Bulgaria or anything related to Bulgaria but as long as you don't stop Delyan you have no right to try to stop me. He's the source of the trouble.

Делян

October 4th, 2007, 02:17 AM

dejan

October 4th, 2007, 02:17 AM

In another thread we had a talk about circumcision.....
Wow really, that's great!:lol: although what that has to do with this? lol

Делян

October 4th, 2007, 02:21 AM

I don't hate Bulgaria or anything related to Bulgaria but as long as you don't stop Delyan you have no right to try to stop me. He's the source of the trouble.
What's the name of the thread?

lkm370

October 4th, 2007, 02:34 AM

lkm370, you like my posts that much? Always a pleasure to cheer-up a Bosniak brother :clown:

Assalamu alaikum my fellow bosnian :D

Dux Uxorum

October 4th, 2007, 05:00 AM

lkm370, I bet you selected that green smiley on purpose (anyone remembers TLN?) :lol:

sargon

October 4th, 2007, 01:54 PM

Turkey? Why everyone is being aggressive on Turkey?

Делян

October 4th, 2007, 04:40 PM

I don't hate Bulgaria or anything related to Bulgaria but as long as you don't stop Delyan you have no right to try to stop me. He's the source of the trouble.
Yeah, somebody should come and beat me up :bash:.....virtually.
Welcome to the Internet age!

sun&sun

October 4th, 2007, 04:54 PM

It's called banning

Verso

October 4th, 2007, 05:00 PM

Verso, my friend, first of all I think you're missing the fact that I admit being biased when it comes to Slovenian official politics (not the people per se). Frankly, I did not like the way old country disintegrated and official Slovenian attitude at that time (or the lack of consideration for the certain insecurities stemming from the bloody history of WW2) and I do not like their preaching on Kosovo issue today. I also personally do not care for the EU as it is only a temporary idea (the next big war which will inevitably happen sooner or later will prove what I'm writing now) and Balkan was the part of that same Europe long before they even came up with the shitty flag that does not mean anything to me (same goes for the official "monster flag" of Bosnia & Herzegovina as no truly likes it and it's just a pathetic copy of the EU flag). I have no hard feelings for any individual/nation/ethnicity (whatever the definition of these may be) in the world but it is my choice to like or dislike political systems, religions, philosophies, mentalities and any other "isms" that people identify themselves with. Vse najbolse (I hope this makes sense)!How does that distinguish Slovenia from other countries (except Russia and a few other)? Even your small neighbor Macedonia has the same view on the Kosovo issue.

Alterlee

October 4th, 2007, 05:19 PM

How does that distinguish Slovenia from other countries (except Russia and a few other)? Even your small neighbor Macedonia has the same view on the Kosovo issue.
It doesn't.

Verso

October 4th, 2007, 05:35 PM

It doesn't.What, Macedonia doesn't have the same view as Slovenia, or it doesn't distinguish Slovenia from many other countries?

lkm370

October 4th, 2007, 05:41 PM

What, Macedonia doesn't have the same view as Slovenia, or it doesn't distinguish Slovenia from many other countries?

were basically jeleous slovenia turned out so rich and without any problems

Verso

October 4th, 2007, 06:10 PM

What's new, it's been richer than the rest of SFRY since always, but the last 16 years it's also been independent, maybe that's what bothers some people?

BiH-x

October 4th, 2007, 06:32 PM

Dont worry Verso, Slovenia is by far the country in the ex Yu region that the least people have any problem with. Nobody in their right minds resents your independence.

Alterlee

October 4th, 2007, 06:43 PM

What, Macedonia doesn't have the same view as Slovenia, or it doesn't distinguish Slovenia from many other countries?
It doesn't distinguish Slovenia from many other countries.

Verso

October 4th, 2007, 06:44 PM

^ Great! :D

kenaney

October 4th, 2007, 07:25 PM

bgrs

October 4th, 2007, 07:33 PM

^^ Nope, they aren't "older". Kyev was a Slavic capital long before the Ottomans invaded the region...

I mean...check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#History

lkm370

October 4th, 2007, 07:42 PM

What's new, it's been richer than the rest of SFRY since always, but the last 16 years it's also been independent, maybe that's what bothers some people?

basically a lot of people think slovenia caused the succesions of the rest of sfry because you did it first, but slovenia is just the best country out of all the other ex-yu,the least racist and most hardworking, thats why you got far

dewrob

October 4th, 2007, 09:36 PM

basically a lot of people think slovenia caused the succesions of the rest of sfry because you did it first, but slovenia is just the best country out of all the other ex-yu,the least racist and most hardworking, thats why you got far

I think (at least from this time distance) that Slovenia was the only one which knew what it was doing and the only one that had real reasons behind its actions.

The rest of us were fueled by either blind nationalistic euphoria or inertia.

bgrs

October 4th, 2007, 09:39 PM

Делян

October 4th, 2007, 10:12 PM

Turks are much older then ukranians in Eastern Europe my friend, they are european as Ukraine is "european".
Please, explain how the Turks are Europeans even before the real Europeans?

golov

October 4th, 2007, 10:17 PM

Hehe, Turkey is more European than the Kievan Rus'? :lol:

Делян

October 4th, 2007, 10:18 PM

I think (at least from this time distance) that Slovenia was the only one which knew what it was doing and the only one that had real reasons behind its actions.

The rest of us were fueled by either blind nationalistic euphoria or inertia.
Not that I'm very familiar but isn’t the geographical location of Slovenia the major factor for its success?

Turnovec

October 4th, 2007, 10:21 PM

What about France :) I mean, we all like to speak about non-neighbouring countries here and none of us have France as a neighbour as well :) I really really like France and I'm kinda learning French now all by myself, just for fun :)

Je m'baladais sur l'avenue le coeur ouvert a l'inconnu
J'avais envie de dire bonjour à n'importe qui
N'importe qui et ce fut toi, je t'ai dit n'importe quoi
Il suffisait de te parler, pour t'apprivoiser
Aux Champs-Elysees, aux Champs-Elysees
Au soleil, sous la pluie, a midi ou a minuit
Il y a tout ce que vous voulez aux Champs-Elysees

Lalalla :)

Hehe good idea bgrs :) let's sepak about non-neigbouring contries that we like ...

1. Chez Republic ... I simply adore Praha , My father had the luck to be born there. He and my grand father had also the gutts and the pleasure to graduate from the "Prazka politehnika" university :) and I also have some distant cousins in Ostrava on one of my great-grand fathers side :cheers: What else to say :dunno: it's like my second homeland.

2. Hungary ... they are our cousins by default ;) Actually we have always been neighbours since the prahistorical times , but recently the serbs got stuck between us for some stupid reason ;)

3. Ireland Have the pleasure to work and have close relations with some guys from there. I am stunned how their mentality and temperament are like our own bulgarian one ;) ... i mean in the good sence :) Irish are definetely different from the brits ...

bgrs

October 4th, 2007, 10:28 PM

Hehe, Turkey is more European than the Kievan Rus'? :lol:

Golov, I've read something about the official answer the Turkish Sultan got from the people living in todays Ukraine, when he offered them to surrender to the Ottoman empire, it was very funny :)

Sorry to post it in Ukrainian, but it's...the original writing after all ahah :)

«Я, султан и владыка Блистательной Порты, брат Солнца и Луны, наместник Аллаха на Земле, властелин царств - Македонского, Вавилонского, Иерусалимского, Большого и Малого Египта, царь над царями, властелин над властелинами, несравненный рыцарь, никем непобедимый воин, владетель древа жизни, неотступный хранитель гроба Иисуса Христа, попечитель самого Бога, надежда и утешитель мусульман, устрашитель и великий защитник христиан, повелеваю вам, запорожские казаки, сдаться мне добровольно и без всякого сопротивления и меня вашими нападениями не заставлять беспокоиться.

Султан Мохаммед IV».

Ответ запорожцев Мохаммеду IV

«Ти, султан, чорт турецкий, i проклятого чорта брат i товарищ, самого Люцеперя секретарь. Якiй ти в чорта лыцарь, коли голою сракою ежака не вбъешь. Чорт висирае, а твое вiйско пожирае. Не будешь ти, сукiн ти сину, синiв христiянських пiд собой мати, твойого вiйска мы не боiмось, землею i водою будем биться з тобою, распро... твою мать. Вавилоньский ти кухарь, Макидоньский колесник, Iерусалимський бравирник, Александрiйський козолуп, Великого и Малого Египта свинарь, Армянська злодиюка, Татарський сагайдак, Каменецкий кат, у всего свiту i пiдсвiту блазень, самого гаспида внук и нашего х... крюк. Свиняча ти морда, кобиляча срака, рiзницька собака, нехрещений лоб, мать твою... От так тобi запорожцi висказали, плюгавче. Не будешь ти i свиней христiанских пасти. Теперь кончаемо, бо числа не знаемо i календаря не маемо, мicяц у небi, год у книзi, а день такий у нас, який i у вас. За це поцiлуй в сраку нас!

Пiдписали: кошовый атаман Иван Сирко зо всiм кошем Запорожськiм».

Ukrainian forumers, enjoy :) I'm quite sure the Bulgarians will understand it too :)

dewrob

October 4th, 2007, 10:28 PM

Not that I'm very familiar but isn’t the geographical location of Slovenia the major factor for its success?

geography is a big contributer but there is much more to it. work ethics, efficiency, education....... basically things that other forumers mentioned already. They are not so strong on words but are strong on action unlike most of us southerners where the situation is reverse. I'm sure if we (Macedonians) switched places with them today, we might do better than in our hood, but we'll still find ways to screw up things.

Turnovec

October 4th, 2007, 10:31 PM

geography is a big contributer but there is much more to it. work ethics, efficiency, education....... basically things that other forumers mentioned already. They are not so strong on words but are strong on action unlike most of us southerners where the situation is reverse. I'm sure if we (Macedonians) switched places with them today, we might do better than in our hood, but we'll still find ways to screw up things.

hehe ... its the neighbours fault i guess ;) It is one thing to neighbour greeks , turks , serbs ... and totaly different to border austrians , italians and hungarians , isn't it ? :) Oh and by the way , you macedonians are quite young nation , so don't complain ... you have just started ;) Thank god that you are far away from South Rhodesia , Burma or Abhazia's cases ;)

RawLee

October 4th, 2007, 10:31 PM

hehe ... its the neighbours fault i guess ;) It is one thing to neighbour with greeks , turks , serbs ... and totaly different to border austrians , italians and hungarians , isn't it ? :) Oh and by the way , you macedonians are quite young nation , so don't complain ... you have just started ;)

We border serbs too...whats the matter with them?

golov

October 4th, 2007, 10:33 PM

bgrs, yeah I have seen it before - good reply :D

Turnovec

October 4th, 2007, 10:38 PM

We border serbs too...whats the matter with them?

I won't tell a thing :D :banned:

Делян

October 4th, 2007, 10:38 PM

RawLee

October 4th, 2007, 10:43 PM

Sun&Sun,
Please don't flip over.

Sarkozy Stands His Ground over Turkey during Bulgaria Visit

http://www.novinite.com/media/images/2007-10/big_86030.jpg
^^
info: Novinar (http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=86030)

Since we started talking about good/bad non-neighbor, let me say that the French are the best!

And Hungary governs France!;)

Делян

October 4th, 2007, 10:48 PM

delete

bgrs

October 4th, 2007, 10:48 PM

bgrs, yeah I have seen it before - good reply :D

Yeah :)

Anyway, I found a translation in Bulgarian :)

ПРЕДЛОЖЕНИЕТО НА АХМЕД

Аз, султана, син на Мохамед, на бога и на слънцето и на луната, внук и наместник божи, владетел македонски, вавилонски и на ерусалимското царство, на великата пирамида на Египет, цар на царете, владетел на владетелите, необикновен рицар, от никого непобеждаван, непреклонен пазител на гроба господен, почитател на самия бог, велик застъпник на християните, заповядвам ви запорожци и казаци да се предадете доброволно, без всякаква съпротива, защото аз от вашите нападения не се страхувам.

ОТГОВОР НА ЗАПОРОЖЦИТЕ

Ти султане, дяволе турски, на проклетия дявол брат и другар, на самия Луцифер секретар, какъв си, дявол те взел рицар, щом като не можеш с голо дупе таралеж да убиеш.Дявола сере, войската ти яде.Няма ти кучи сине да подчиниш на своята власт християните.От твоята войска ние не се боим.С вода и земя ще се бием с тебе дваж и триж проклети сине.Да ти ебем майката, македонски саламджия, вавилонски готвач, ерусалимски скопец, александрийски самотник, арменска свиня, татарски разбойник, хамеински котарак, съблазнителен дупедавец на този и на онзи свят, на самия дявол внук и на нашия хуй закачалка, свинска муцуно, кобилешко дупе, улично куче, да ти ебем майката.

Ето така ти отговарят запорожците.Ти не си достоен и свиня християнска да храниш и пасеш.

За всичко-целуни ни по гъза!

И. В. Сирко,
Всички запорожци подписал

Turnovec

October 4th, 2007, 10:50 PM

^^ Isn't that the famous painting of Repin "The Cossacks Write a Letter to the Sultan" (1891) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://www.uoregon.edu/~kimball/images/repin%20Zaporoj%20best.jpg

indipuk

October 4th, 2007, 10:53 PM

Golov, I've read something about the official answer the Turkish Sultan got from the people living in todays Ukraine, when he offered them to surrender to the Ottoman empire, it was very funny :)

Sorry to post it in Ukrainian, but it's...the original writing after all ahah :)

Ukrainian forumers, enjoy :) I'm quite sure the Bulgarians will understand it too :)

Common, this can't be real. Too funny.

golov

October 4th, 2007, 10:53 PM

Its meant to be true, and yes - the painting depicts the cossacks writting a letter to the sultan

Oekraїne

October 4th, 2007, 10:59 PM

Turks are much older then ukranians in Eastern Europe my friend, they are european as Ukraine is "european".

Are you on crack Ukraine was one of the first nations in EE and was baptized in 988 it had the territories of Russia some parts of Poland, Belarus, Moldova, and Lithuania, which is much more bigger then your so called ottoman empire. Second since when was turkey in Europe learn geography and the talk!

golov

October 4th, 2007, 11:01 PM

Ok Oekraїne, dont take it to the next nationalistic extreme! There was no Ukraine in 988, there was a SLAVIC STATE

Oekraїne

October 4th, 2007, 11:05 PM

^^ Check Wikipidia not the greatest source but it's good enough you’ll see that they talk specifically about Ukraine being baptized in 988!

golov

October 4th, 2007, 11:10 PM

(c) Wikipedia:

From the historiographical point of view, Kievan Rus' is considered a predecessor state of three modern East Slavic nations: Belarus, Russia and Ukraine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus

:)

bgrs

October 4th, 2007, 11:10 PM

Ok Oekraїne, dont take it to the next nationalistic extreme! There was no Ukraine in 988, there was a SLAVIC STATE

Well, does it matter? I doubt that 10th century's Bulgaria had much to do with todays Bulgaria, the same applies to Russia too.

We were here long before those guys came here. And yes, modern nations are kinda mysterious. Bulgarians for example are genetically not Slavs, at least 2/3 of their genes are not Slavic. Anyway, we adopted the Slavic language, culture and religion :) And now we identify ourselves as a Slavic nation, though we are like Greeks much more than we look like Russians :)

And yes, the Ottomans were aggressive guests here and noone invited them to come..

golov

October 4th, 2007, 11:15 PM

Of course it doesnt matter as far as my daily life is concerned, but I think history is very important to know and protect

Bulgarians, we are happy to have you in the slavic team :D

Oekraїne

October 4th, 2007, 11:26 PM

^^ Check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity_in_Ukraine

bgrs

October 4th, 2007, 11:35 PM

^^ We adopted the Orthodox religion back in 864. Back in those times, I believe being a Christian state determined your political relations. Quite a lot of wars happened just because some Christian state did not like their Pagan neighbours and vice versa :)

Anyway, todays Bulgaria and Macedonia were the lands where the cyrillic alphabet evolved. It were the St. Cyril and Methodius who invented it. I was glad to go to St. Cyril's grave in Rome.

Here it is:

http://gat3way.fcdunav.com/pix/gallery/albums/rome/normal_IMG_0117.JPG

St. Methodius was burried somewhere in Slovakia AFAIK..

I find it somehow strange that everything here was written in Greek though :(

Thanks to those dudes (I believe they were Slav Byzantines), we now have our alphabet :)

golov

October 4th, 2007, 11:36 PM

I really like Bulgaria, one of my really good friends is Bulgarian. Hopefully some day I will travel there :)

golov

October 4th, 2007, 11:36 PM

^^ Check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity_in_Ukraine

Kid, you have trouble understanding what you read or what? :crazy:
The History of Christianity in the lands of present-day Ukraine dates back to the earliest centuries of the apostolic church. It has remained the dominant religion in the area since its acceptance in 988 by Vladimir the Great, who instated it as the state religion of Kievan Rus', a medieval East Slavic state.
"Lands of present-day Ukraine" does not imply Ukraine or even Ukrainians living in the area(simply because there was no such identity at the time). "Kievan Rus', a medieval East Slavic state" can be coupled nicely with the extract from wikipedia in my post above - "Kievan Rus' is considered a predecessor state of three modern East Slavic nations: Belarus, Russia and Ukraine". Ukrainian as an identity formed later

Why are Ukrainians always so selfish with history? :)

BiH-x

October 4th, 2007, 11:43 PM

They are not so strong on words but are strong on action unlike most of us southerners where the situation is reverse.
True. Now for the sweet love of God, change your avatar.

Oekraїne

October 4th, 2007, 11:43 PM

^^ Read the whole article not only the top and then you’ll see what I’m talking about!

dewrob

October 4th, 2007, 11:48 PM

True. Now for the sweet love of God, change your avatar.

:lol: I just put it on a hour ago, I got tired of that moustache guy :)

bgrs

October 4th, 2007, 11:51 PM

LOL :)

Blok

October 5th, 2007, 12:07 AM

:lol: I just put it on a hour ago, I got tired of that moustache guy :)

Is it your picture ?

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 12:12 AM

Is it your picture ?

yes

krainer

October 5th, 2007, 12:21 AM

This thread sucks!

SinCity

October 5th, 2007, 01:25 AM

I think (at least from this time distance) that Slovenia was the only one which knew what it was doing and the only one that had real reasons behind its actions.

The rest of us were fueled by either blind nationalistic euphoria or inertia.

Croatia too knew what it was doing and had similar motives to that of Slovenia. They did declare independence on the same day.

Fortuantely for Slovenia it was on the opposite side of Yugoslavia to that of Serbia so its withdrawal from Yugoslavia was easier than that of Croatia which was drawn into a long war that it didn't want.

Делян

October 5th, 2007, 01:31 AM

This thread sucks!

Oh, yeah!

lkm370

October 5th, 2007, 02:06 AM

Indexi

October 5th, 2007, 03:12 AM

BTW when did the Bjelo Dugme fell apart? I'm really interested in this band? I like their music :)

They are a bosnian band, from Sarajevo. Afaik, they are still doing concerts of their old stuff, but I doubt they are making anything new.

sun&sun

October 5th, 2007, 03:30 AM

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 08:46 AM

Croatia too knew what it was doing and had similar motives to that of Slovenia. They did declare independence on the same day.

Fortuantely for Slovenia it was on the opposite side of Yugoslavia to that of Serbia so its withdrawal from Yugoslavia was easier than that of Croatia which was drawn into a long war that it didn't want.

i'm aware of these things SinCity, however the Slovenian case has proven to be a totally pragmatic one, where in the other republics including Croatia nationalism had a important role if not the most important especially in those years.

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 09:04 AM

exactly, but what about macedonia, why did you guys declare independence, arent you close to the serbs?

define close. We are close with the Serbs as people but so are with the others, we have no grudge against anyone and I think the feeling is mutual. An ex-yu will be treated as one of our own when visiting in 99% the cases.

Nevertheless these things should not be mixed with politics. Macedonians had the largest percentage (95%) for independance on the referendum among YU nations in comparising with the 94% in Croatia and 88% in Slovenia. Few factors contributed to this

- rise of Macedonian nationalism. VMRO-DPMNE (which would be the Macedonian version of HDZ) kicked some serious ass in the first democratic elections which clearly showed the moode of of the people
- the refusal of the people to see our soldiers dieing in a war that wasn't ours. Sasko Gesovski who was the first victim (killed in the Split riots) was the igniting spark of this outrage
- it was clear where Yugoslavia was heading. It was obvious it was time to leave the ship. Have in mind again that 95% voted for independance which clearly shows that even the pro Yugoslav Macedonians were for independance.

Turnovec

October 5th, 2007, 09:29 AM

^^ You didn't mention what was the exact question on the referendum ... ;)

bgrs

October 5th, 2007, 09:31 AM

What's that question?

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 09:43 AM

What's that question?

Дали сте за самостојна Македонија со право да стапи во иден сојуз на суверени држави на Југославија?

Turnovec

October 5th, 2007, 09:50 AM

Дали сте за самостојна Македонија со право да стапи во иден сојуз на суверени држави на Југославија?

^^ Quite good question. I don't wonder why you got so high percentage of possitive votes :)

bgrs

October 5th, 2007, 10:08 AM

What exactly is the problem here?

dejan

October 5th, 2007, 10:13 AM

What exactly is the problem here?
There is no problem, the extreme majority of the people voted for independence and voila that's what they got, there's not much too it;)

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 10:15 AM

What exactly is the problem here?

it's an obsessive troll problem, nothing more, nothing less... the referendum question itself is fine

Turnovec

October 5th, 2007, 10:22 AM

it's an obsessive troll problem, nothing more, nothing less... the referendum question itself is fine

^^ Hey , do we have to insult each other ? i think i made a good point here. Did i say the question is not fine? It is quite fine indeed.

BIK

October 5th, 2007, 10:29 AM

Дали сте за самостојна Македонија со право да стапи во иден сојуз на суверени држави на Југославија?

Sorry to be the dumb Serb - but try as i might, i cannot understand the question in full.
Can you please say it in Serbian or English?
I am having troubles with this part in particular "со право да стапи во иден сојуз на суверени држави на Југославија?

Thanks!

blue79

October 5th, 2007, 10:34 AM

^Well it can be iterpreted in a diffrent ways but I guess they ment a future loose confederation of indipendent states

dia

October 5th, 2007, 10:34 AM

Sorry to be the dumb Serb - but try as i might, i cannot understand the question in full.
Can you please say it in Serbian or English?
I am having troubles with this part in particular "со право да стапи во иден сојуз на суверени држави на Југославија?

Thanks!

Are you for an independent Macedonia with a right to join in an union of suzerain states of Yugoslavia?

suvereni drzavi= suzerain states.

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 10:36 AM

Sorry to be the dumb Serb - but try as i might, i cannot understand the question in full.
Can you please say it in Serbian or English?
I am having troubles with this part in particular "со право да стапи во иден сојуз на суверени држави на Југославија?

Thanks!

Дали сте за самостојну Македонију са правом да ступи у будуќи савез са сувереним државама Југославија?

Питање је било овако постављено да би се оставио простор уколико би се договорила конфедерација или нешто слично како је било покушаја око тога у том времену.

dia

October 5th, 2007, 10:37 AM

^^ Sorry, thought no one is here so early ;)

BIK

October 5th, 2007, 10:40 AM

Thanks all!
Now i see how the question can be acceptable to both pro- and against independence people.

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 10:44 AM

Thanks all!
Now i see how the question can be acceptable to both pro- and against independence people.

the outcome was inevitable maybe not with such large margin but still. Neverheless the question was there more to give authorization to the politicians to make such an arrangement (like confederation) if possible without having to address the people again

Alterlee

October 5th, 2007, 12:44 PM

Yugoslavia fell apart just the way it should. However, things after breaking apart were... totally messed up...

I think that first Anti-Yu demonstrations were held in 1987 or 1988 in Čačak or in Užice...

Too bad Montenegro and Kosovo issue wasn't resolved back then...

Zanovijetalo

October 5th, 2007, 12:51 PM

i'm aware of these things SinCity, however the Slovenian case has proven to be a totally pragmatic one, where in the other republics including Croatia nationalism had a important role if not the most important especially in those years.

Nationalism is not a bad thing – well, not necessarily.

Anyway, Slovenia had no minorities, and thats what made the difference.

Verso

October 5th, 2007, 01:56 PM

Is it your picture ?yesEww, man. :D :lol:

CrazySerb

October 5th, 2007, 02:14 PM

- it was clear where Yugoslavia was heading. It was obvious it was time to leave the ship. Have in mind again that 95% voted for independance which clearly shows that even the pro Yugoslav Macedonians were for independance.

A Macedonian told me that they were promised great sums of money at the time. How true is that?

Turnovec

October 5th, 2007, 03:24 PM

Croatia too knew what it was doing and had similar motives to that of Slovenia. They did declare independence on the same day.

Fortuantely for Slovenia it was on the opposite side of Yugoslavia to that of Serbia so its withdrawal from Yugoslavia was easier than that of Croatia which was drawn into a long war that it didn't want.

btw guys, what were your motives? i will write you a pm. I am curious to hear a slovenian or croat's explanation.

Alterlee

October 5th, 2007, 03:36 PM

Maybe they wanted to have independent country after 800 years of foreign rule?

BiH-x

October 5th, 2007, 04:50 PM

Yugoslavia fell apart just the way it should.
What do you mean? That the way it disintegrated was good? Or just that its good that Yugoslavia fell apart?

Anyways, Slovenia and Croatia were always the ones most eager to leave Yugoslavia, quite understandably because they benefited the least from it. You can even see that reflected in the people of ex Yu today. "Jugonostalgija" is much more common among Serbs, Bosniaks and Macedonians than it is among Croats. I would think its the same with Slovenia, but Im not entirely sure.

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 04:53 PM

A Macedonian told me that they were promised great sums of money at the time. How true is that?

It's a myth, there were no money... the outcome was inevitable, there were so many other details involved that I didn't cover, I just stated the 3 major ones at least IMO.

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 04:53 PM

Nationalism is not a bad thing – well, not necessarily.

well this is a matter of personal perspective, for me nationalism is a disease, not particulary in the case of Croatia but in general, including Macedonia.

Anyway, Slovenia had no minorities, and thats what made the difference.

this is very true, I agree

RawLee

October 5th, 2007, 04:56 PM

Anyway, Slovenia had no minorities, and thats what made the difference.this is very true, I agree

Slovenia has like 10000 hungarian minority:nuts:

BiH-x

October 5th, 2007, 04:57 PM

Slovenia has like 10000 hungarian minority:nuts:

Hungarians never cause any trouble though:D

And 10 000 isnt a significant enough minority to make a difference (like requesting the right to statehood etc)

lkm370

October 5th, 2007, 05:07 PM

btw guys, what were your motives? i will write you a pm. I am curious to hear a slovenian or croat's explanation.

there motives were that they didnt want to be in a yugoslavia run by milosevic and co., its very simple.

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 05:08 PM

Slovenia has like 10000 hungarian minority:nuts:

that's not a minority, these are minorities :)

Macedonian 64.2%, Albanian 25.2%, Turkish 3.9%, Roma 2.7%, Serb 1.8%, other 2.2% (2002 census)

Alterlee

October 5th, 2007, 05:31 PM

What do you mean? That the way it disintegrated was good? Or just that its good that Yugoslavia fell apart?

Anyways, Slovenia and Croatia were almost the ones most eager to leave Yugoslavia, quite understandably because they benefited the least from it. You can even see that reflected in the people of ex Yu today. "Jugonostalgija" is much more common among Serbs, Bosniaks and Macedonians than it is among Croats. I would think its the same with Slovenia, but Im not entirely sure.It is good thing that Yugoslavia fell apart, also, it is good the way Yugoslavia fell apart, bad thing is war that followed, but hey, what can we do? Load game doesn't work. War wasn't reason for breakup, but breakup was reason for war, and it was inevitable. Maybe it was little hustled up, but, it is better that way. It was quick, ruthless and it settled thing once and for all. Imagine that YU remained in some sort of loose confederation and that every single day for past 15 years or so someone talks about independency, "historical injustice", "eternal brotherhood" and similar crap... and that today instead of posting on Skyscraper you and I look each other over the aim.

Also, Yugonostagia almost non existent, at least among Serbs and Bosniaks I've met. I have never met Macedonian person in RL, so I can't say anything for them.

new bulgaria

October 5th, 2007, 05:33 PM

Dewrob,

I can't open SSC at work anymore because of your avatar. What up the fat guy?

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 05:48 PM

Dewrob,

I can't open SSC at work anymore because of your avatar. What up the fat guy?

I got the inspiration from Quintana and his freaky avatars. I guess I topped him

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 05:51 PM

Imagine that YU remained in some sort of loose confederation and that every single day for past 15 years or so someone talks about independency, "historical injustice", "eternal brotherhood" and similar crap... and that today instead of posting on Skyscraper you and I look each other over the aim.

this is also very true, I agree...

new bulgaria

October 5th, 2007, 06:21 PM

I got the inspiration from Quintana and his freaky avatars. I guess I topped him

Yeah. I think you went overboard. :lol:

Verso

October 5th, 2007, 06:54 PM

I wonder what dewrob was searching for to find him. :lol: :D

CrazySerb

October 5th, 2007, 06:55 PM

^
I for one don't want to know.:yes:

Verso

October 5th, 2007, 07:04 PM

^ To be honest, neither do I. :lol: ("hot bears" :D :rofl:)

Murci

October 5th, 2007, 07:22 PM

. Imagine that YU remained in some sort of loose confederation and that every single day for past 15 years or so someone talks about independency, "historical injustice", "eternal brotherhood" and similar crap... and that today instead of posting on Skyscraper you and I look each other over the aim.

It's true . It's hard for a multiethnic state to survive in Balkans . Look at BiH today .

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 07:39 PM

^ To be honest, neither do I. :lol: ("hot bears" :D :rofl:)

"hot bears" sounds too cuddly for this freak :lol:

as I said I got the inspiration for Quintana, so obviosly I was searching for pictures of freaks :). The fat naked guy won the contest.

dewrob

October 5th, 2007, 07:54 PM

ok, I changed it. Now U have a simpsonized dewrob :D

BiH-x

October 5th, 2007, 07:57 PM

It is good thing that Yugoslavia fell apart, also, it is good the way Yugoslavia fell apart, bad thing is war that followed, but hey, what can we do? Load game doesn't work. War wasn't reason for breakup, but breakup was reason for war, and it was inevitable. Maybe it was little hustled up, but, it is better that way. It was quick, ruthless and it settled thing once and for all. Imagine that YU remained in some sort of loose confederation and that every single day for past 15 years or so someone talks about independency, "historical injustice", "eternal brotherhood" and similar crap... and that today instead of posting on Skyscraper you and I look each other over the aim.

I'll disagree with most of what you wrote there. I neither remember the war as quick nor do I think it has settled anything once and for all. I am grateful it doesnt exist anymore though...the good Juga died with Tito.

Also, Yugonostagia almost non existent, at least among Serbs and Bosniaks I've met. I have never met Macedonian person in RL, so I can't say anything for them

Well, its not popular to openly be a "Yug" in neither Bosnian nor Serbian cycles; for "patriotic" reasons. For Bosniaks its a matter of being consistent with our views; we wanted to get out of Yugoslavia, we shed tons of blood for this to happen and to get our country independent, and therefore openly saying that Yugoslavia was good (or better) than what we have now, is like a betrayal. For Serbs, I suspect its the fact that that they dont want to appear as if they long back to some sort of brotherhood that "nobody else wanted but them"...basically; since the people and republics opted to break away they dont want to be the ones longing back to the way things were.

Secretly though; its true that many Bosniaks and Serbs appreciate the peace, stability and relative prosperity we enjoyed in Yugoslavia. Perhaps thats because our nations havent prospered as well as Slovenia and Croatia has, but I think it goes deeper than that....Croats (on a whole, sorry if Im generalizing) never liked Yugoslavia. They regarded it as a fake creation that restricted both their ability to be all they could be, and their rights as Croats.

Many Serbs and Bosniaks use the same argument about their people today, but it doesnt change the fact that when Yugoslavia existed, most of us were silent because we were more content with the situation. There was never a "Bosniak" or "Serbian" spring. It was always Serbs, Montenegrins and Bosniaks that called themselves Yugoslavs in statistics, rarely ever Croats. Bosniaks and Serbs were also more likely to embrace communism then Croats, who were always the most religious out of "us"....I could go on forever; the point is that the resentment of Tito and Yugoslavia that exists among Serbs and Bosniaks today (and it very much does) is rather new; unlike with Croats.

Verso

October 5th, 2007, 08:03 PM

Yugonostalgia is in Slovenia by most people considered backwards, although there are also yugonostalgics here.

And thank god for the simpsonized dewrob. :D

Verso

October 5th, 2007, 08:04 PM

"hot bears" sounds too cuddly for this freak :lol:What did you search then, "sexy monsters"? :D

BiH-x

October 5th, 2007, 08:08 PM

Yugonostalgy is in Slovenia by most people considered backwards.

I dont really know how the whole situation is with Slovenia, but I can very well imagine that. Officially, I think both in Serbia and in Bosnia you're not supposed to be a Yugonostalgic, but that doesnt change the fact that the number of people in these countries that are, are considerably higher than in Slovenia and Croatia.

Murci

October 5th, 2007, 08:47 PM

Secretly though; its true that many Bosniaks and Serbs appreciate the peace, stability and relative prosperity we enjoyed in Yugoslavia. Perhaps thats because our nations havent prospered as well as Slovenia and Croatia has, but I think it goes deeper than that....Croats (on a whole, sorry if Im generalizing) never liked Yugoslavia. They regarded it as a fake creation that restricted both their ability to be all they could be, and their rights as Croats.

Many Serbs and Bosniaks use the same argument about their people today, but it doesnt change the fact that when Yugoslavia existed, most of us were silent because we were more content with the situation. There was never a "Bosniak" or "Serbian" spring. It was always Serbs, Montenegrins and Bosniaks that called themselves Yugoslavs in statistics, rarely ever Croats. Bosniaks and Serbs were also more likely to embrace communism then Croats, who were always the most religious out of "us"....I could go on forever; the point is that the resentment of Tito and Yugoslavia that exists among Serbs and Bosniaks today (and it very much does) is rather new; unlike with Croats.

Completely agree with you . Croats never liked Yugoslavia , they always felt trapped in it . Even much wealthier Slovenes were not opposing Yugoslavia so much . They were not happy with it only in the last decade . Slovenes did not bomb Yugoslav embassies like some extreme Croat groups did. Slovenians were fed up with supporting poor South . Yugoslavia was like a sinking ship , and of course they were the first ones to abandon it .
In Croatia the influence of Vatican and Catholic church is much stronger than it is in Slovenia , and this is the main reason why Croats were so much against Yugoslavia.

Verso

October 5th, 2007, 08:49 PM

An average Slovenian: "You can send the Catholic Church right into my ass."

CrazySerb

October 5th, 2007, 09:33 PM

I dont really know how the whole situation is with Slovenia, but I can very well imagine that. Officially, I think both in Serbia and in Bosnia you're not supposed to be a Yugonostalgic, but that doesnt change the fact that the number of people in these countries that are, are considerably higher than in Slovenia and Croatia.

Don't let Verso fool you.
Of all the ex-Yugoslav countries i've been to - only Macedonia i haven't yet had a chance to visit - Slovenia was the most Yugo-nostalgic of them all.

bgrs

October 5th, 2007, 09:38 PM

Why did the Croats hate Yugoslavia? I've read that Tito was a Croatian?

Dux Uxorum

October 5th, 2007, 10:46 PM

bgrs, I think it's only fair for a Croatian forumer to give you that answer. However, it is certainly a nice change to normally discuss about topics as this one is. I would personally disagree with Murci about the fact that multi-ethnic countries could not work (in the Balkan area). I actually believe that USED to be possible, but not so anymore. Also, BiH-X statements are quite valid in my opinion though I personally wish Yugoslavia truly never existed. The things should have been done in a different way after the WW1 and having smaller countries that would actually cooperate and respect each other would have been a lot better idea. Now it's too late for such things, but I guess it's never too late to respect your neighbors and not look at them as your enemies. However, I also disagree with Shumway's opinion that things are settled for good now. Working with all ethnic groups on BiH, Croatia and Serbia told me that things (esp. in Bosnia) are still boiling under the surface. I genuinely wish I am wrong here, but when you have 3-4 year old kids calling other nations "balija, cetnik or ustasa" it does not look like a good recipe for the lasting peace. Good luck to us all, we'll need it.

tzooee

October 5th, 2007, 11:21 PM

Why did the Croats hate Yugoslavia? I've read that Tito was a Croatian?

hi again :D :lol:

Croatians never liked Yugoslavia, becouse they have been ruled with a milenium, and they didn't have they're own state. Also because they were Nazi oriented (and many still are - the Ustasha movement), but Serbia and other states in Yugoslavia were completely the oposite.

Someone here sad Slovenia had the luck being far away from Serbia, and that Serbia attacked Croatia etc.. Thats a complete lye, becouse Croatians have been arming themselves (the Ustasha movement and the lighter version of it - Franjo Tudjman) long before anyone in Yugoslavia could think of a break up, in the mid eighties .. Why would someone want to mass buy illigaly weapons if they wanted to make a peacefull break up?

Btw Croatia and Serbia where never in a war, becouse JNA (the army of yu. was in a conflict with the croatian Ustasha and JNA main leader was todays(croatia) and backday yu president Stipe Mesic )
Haague tribunal has convicted JNA generals 1 free, other 5 years, and another one 20. The sentence really shows that croatian propaganda is beatable.

Croatians wanted they're own state, ok not a problem, but they deleted from they're own constitution that Serbian people are constitutive ethnicity in the Croatian state.. Thats the main problem.. Its like Belgium declares independance and says francofones are not constitutional any more, or Switzerland with for ex. the italian speaking.
They wanted the war, and they ended it with the most massive ethnic cleansing after WW II, now very few Serbians live in Croatia, they achieved they're goal. Btw. They're everyday politics and life matter, is how to hate Serbs more :D The tensions in resent years have fell, and the croatian society has encounted many problems :D They can't leave in peace with eachother cuz the main reason sticking them firmly together is slightly disapearing.

Btw. my neigbours :

1. BOSNIA : Half of Bosnia is Serbian part, and they really love us, and we love them.. For the other part I really havent got any opinion..

2. Montenegro : Small state on the adriatic. We are the same people, same faith, and I was really glad that they got independence, becouse we in Belgrade/Serbia are fed up with Montenegrins all over the place. I like them being in they're own country and me in my own, with good relations.. They had everything free, social security, school, university, everything.. I hope they take away those privilages, as soon as posible, and treat them like any other foreigner, witch is logical, they wanted independece.. But I'm not for bad relations etc, they are our brothers.

3.Macedonia : Nice people, but crowded with albanians, and there are more and more of them. We had some disputes, with the church, but macedonia is just being defencive to all neighbours cuz they all want to eat it alive :D exept Serbia ofcourse, if we wanted, we would have done it in the '90..

4.Romania : I like Romania a lot. Don't know why though :) We never had any conflicts, romanians were always welcome in Serbia, i know little about Ro .. :bash: I like they're arhitecture, and I know that they are hard working people suffered a lot under the past regime.

5. Croatia: We had conflicts and still have tensions, but I think that we could in the future achieve a lot, we speak the same language (allthough they want to change it :D but its coming like bumerang back cuz they laugh at the funny changes and TITLING SERBIAN FILM etc. ) They hate us more that we hate them :D Many normal people not involved with wars etc. have good relations.

6. Hungary : I really have a neutral position about this country, have been to it, know some hungarians living in Serbia.. But I don't have some - or + comments about it..

7. Bulgaria : Although some serbians tend to have the bulgarian type mentality, I'm not one of them. They are meka for some culture I don't like. They are, I think really stressed by Serbia, kind of frustrated about us.. Cuz in 90% of the confluits they lost :D They had the wrong side so often :D Those bad feelings about BG are higher whan I read bulgarian comments on this forum. I really have a fieling we are not even neighbours, don't know why.. I even dislike them cuz they think that Macedonia is Bulgarian.. Its not.. Nothing is bulgarian exept Bulgaria itself.. Whatever enough words for Bugari :D

8. Albania : I knew a few Albanians in my life.. And many Serbs don't know it, but there is a diference between serbian albanians (living in Kosovo) and albanians from Albania.. The second are far more better than the first :cheers:
They, in my opinion have, still have and will have in many years to come, many consequences, because of they're poverty.. I saw that things are getting better and that they are really happy about it, but it's still I think far from balcan-average .. Anyways, they are good people, I mean Albanians, we have a problem and a real hatred because they want to steal a part of our territory but on the personal level, I think that they are ok. (many of them)(the albanians from albania :D )

October 5th, 2007, 11:24 PM

Tzoobee has moderated his stance now with the new account. Was it the "b" that got in the way?

October 5th, 2007, 11:27 PM

I always had that opinion above..

Dont make me dig up your previous posts;)

tzooee

October 5th, 2007, 11:28 PM

Tzoobee has moderated his stance now with the new account. Was it the "b" that got in the way?

I always had that opinion above..

October 5th, 2007, 11:28 PM

What's with the forum lately

bgrs

October 5th, 2007, 11:29 PM

^^ Well, at least now I understand why Yugoslavia died :)

lkm370

October 5th, 2007, 11:46 PM

An average Slovenian: "You can send the Catholic Church right into my ass."

most priests wouldnt mind doing that

BiH-x

October 5th, 2007, 11:50 PM

Why did the Croats hate Yugoslavia? I've read that Tito was a Croatian?

By blood he was half Croat, half Slovene. By choice and action he was a Yugoslav, and a communist.* With a people that tends to have a strong national consciousness and where the position of the Catholic church is strong, this doesnt hit home...

Okrojsha is right though, a Croat should have his say here too...I just have a gut feeling I havent offended many of them in saying that they didnt like Yugoslavia.

*More like a socialist, but still...

lkm370

October 5th, 2007, 11:52 PM

Someone here sad Slovenia had the luck being far away from Serbia, and that Serbia attacked Croatia etc.. Thats a complete lye, becouse Croatians have been arming themselves (the Ustasha movement and the lighter version of it - Franjo Tudjman) long before anyone in Yugoslavia could think of a break up, in the mid eighties .. Why would someone want to mass buy illigaly weapons if they wanted to make a peacefull break up?

lie, croatia virtually had no army when they declared independent, it took them 3 years to buy enough weapons to crush your illegal serb rebellion and state of rsk

Btw Croatia and Serbia where never in a war, becouse JNA (the army of yu. was in a conflict with the croatian Ustasha and JNA main leader was todays(croatia) and backday yu president Stipe Mesic )
Haague tribunal has convicted JNA generals 1 free, other 5 years, and another one 20. The sentence really shows that croatian propaganda is beatable.

the jna sent all the weapons to the knin seljaci and money, all of the cetniks in bosnia and croatia got their paycheck from belgrade, anyway 80% of those convicted in the hauge were serb

Croatians wanted they're own state, ok not a problem, but they deleted from they're own constitution that Serbian people are constitutive ethnicity in the Croatian state.. Thats the main problem.. Its like Belgium declares independance and says francofones are not constitutional any more, or Switzerland with for ex. the italian speaking.

ok i agree with you there, but starting a rebrellion and killing a bunch of innocent croats and taking 1 thrid of their land wasnt the way to handle it.

They wanted the war, and they ended it with the most massive ethnic cleansing after WW II,

serbs ethnically cleansed krajina and slavonia, you had to expect payback sooner or later

now very few Serbians live in Croatia, they achieved they're goal.

one third have come back

lkm370

October 5th, 2007, 11:55 PM

Alterlee

October 6th, 2007, 12:18 AM

Croatians wanted they're own state, ok not a problem, but they deleted from they're own constitution that Serbian people are constitutive ethnicity in the Croatian state.. Thats the main problem.. Its like Belgium declares independance and says francofones are not constitutional any more, or Switzerland with for ex. the italian speaking.
You are soooooo wrong here. Prior to 1991. Serbs in Croatia made up to 12% of population, and since they declared themselves as Serbs, and Serbia existed, or was in a way of forming, as a country - there was no need for Croats to put Serbs as constitutional nation.

There is quite similar case in Serbia. Albos constitute 16% of population (by 1992. census. My guess that that number by now is far bigger), and nobody even thought about giving them constitutional status. Same can be said for Hungarians (8%) and Bosniaks (?). Would you like that "Serbia is land of Serbs, Albanians, Hungarians, Bosniaks, and all ethnic minorities living on its territory" is first line of constitution? I know I wouldn't. Well, Croats didn't want that their first line of constitution is "Croatia is land of Croats, Serbs, and all ethnic minorities living on its territory". Can you blame them? .

It is ridiculous to simplify things so much. Yeah, that war was started by throwing Serbs out of constitution, and war in Bosnia was started by wedding kill... Historical circumstances, political and economical situation, and many many many other factors led to war.

lkm370

October 6th, 2007, 12:52 AM

:D :D :D

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7690/001sdssrr4.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2699/002hdziw0.jpg

ch0ngchewy0ng

October 6th, 2007, 12:56 AM

Most do.
I was circumcized when i was 9 years old.

HEY I WAS CIRCUMCIZED WHEN I WAS 8 YEARS OLD TOO!!!!!!!!!
MAYBE WE ARE BROTHERS!!!!!!! HE-HE-HE-HE
I DID IT NOT BECAUSE RELIGION TOLD ME TO OR SIMILAR STUFF BUT BECAUSE I HAD A LARGE PIECE OF MEAT IN FRONT OF MY COCO SO DOCTORS HAD TO CUT IT OF

Turnovec

October 6th, 2007, 12:59 AM

:D :D :D

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7690/001sdssrr4.jpg

Oh boy :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

CrazySerb

October 6th, 2007, 01:17 AM

Now those are good neighbourly relations:yes:

montesky

October 6th, 2007, 01:23 AM

:D :D :D

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7690/001sdssrr4.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2699/002hdziw0.jpg

some kind of wall would be appropriate

Coffee Stain

October 6th, 2007, 05:17 AM

hi again :D :lol:

Croatians never liked Yugoslavia, becouse they have been ruled with a milenium, and they didn't have they're own state. Also because they were Nazi oriented (and many still are - the Ustasha movement), but Serbia and other states in Yugoslavia were completely the oposite.

Someone here sad Slovenia had the luck being far away from Serbia, and that Serbia attacked Croatia etc.. Thats a complete lye, becouse Croatians have been arming themselves (the Ustasha movement and the lighter version of it - Franjo Tudjman) long before anyone in Yugoslavia could think of a break up, in the mid eighties .. Why would someone want to mass buy illigaly weapons if they wanted to make a peacefull break up?

Btw Croatia and Serbia where never in a war, becouse JNA (the army of yu. was in a conflict with the croatian Ustasha and JNA main leader was todays(croatia) and backday yu president Stipe Mesic )
Haague tribunal has convicted JNA generals 1 free, other 5 years, and another one 20. The sentence really shows that croatian propaganda is beatable.

Croatians wanted they're own state, ok not a problem, but they deleted from they're own constitution that Serbian people are constitutive ethnicity in the Croatian state.. Thats the main problem.. Its like Belgium declares independance and says francofones are not constitutional any more, or Switzerland with for ex. the italian speaking.
They wanted the war, and they ended it with the most massive ethnic cleansing after WW II, now very few Serbians live in Croatia, they achieved they're goal. Btw. They're everyday politics and life matter, is how to hate Serbs more :D The tensions in resent years have fell, and the croatian society has encounted many problems :D They can't leave in peace with eachother cuz the main reason sticking them firmly together is slightly disapearing.

You are the classic example of: Tko nas bre zaratio? :hm:

1) How can a state be ruled by a milenium, which of course, is a measure of time?

2) Croatia did not have a state eh, I guess we just popped out of the ground somewhere conveniently just before WW1 :nuts:

3) Haha yes bre, Serbia NEVER collaborated with ANYBODY during WW2...
http://www.croradio.net/images/nazichetniks.gif <---Well then, look at that lovely picture:lol:

4) Well bre, you would be arming yourself if you were on the recieving end of documents such as the SANU Memorandom of 1985. According to which Serbs were oppressed by Croat and Slovene commies, even though the capital was in....hint.....BELGRADE!! :banana: ...oh and the military headquarters, and the headquarters of every national organization...=)

5) Oh yea, Croat propaganda bre, in fact, DID YOU KNO? Vukovar was actually destroyed by the Ustase being resurected from 50 years of solitude!!!! :eek2: Oh my gawd!!!! How could those evil Ustase with their mig20s and M-84 tanks...oh wait, that was the JNA, OUR BAD!:) Just some neighboorly love bre.

6) Haha so all of a suden the Hague tribunal is a beacon of justice eh :nuts:
But when the "innocent" (and starving:lol: ) Seselj is to blame, the Hague is nothing but EU/NATO/Anti Serb Propaganda :banana:

7) Lemme guess, Kosovo is yours because of International Law. That same law you had so much fun breaking back in the 90s..or some other new neighboorly love international law?
Ziveli:cheers:

dia

October 6th, 2007, 05:23 AM

Why did the Croats hate Yugoslavia? I've read that Tito was a Croatian?

Communists don't have nationality, the totalitarians even less.

Read "Black hand over Europe", if you didn't yet, I guess it explains well why they didn't like Yugoslavia, neither the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

What I don't understand though is the yugonostalgia, same with the nostalgia for the communist times in Bulgaria and the other countries from the ex so called Eastern block. It's beyond me how someone can have the nostalgia over totalitarian times. Times with concentration camps, terror over everyone who even thought to oppose (even some who didn't think about it) and absolute rule of the "average". :ohno:

Turnovec

October 6th, 2007, 10:29 AM

^^ Very god points dia

Communists don't have nationality, the totalitarians even less.

This is painfully true ....

Read "Black hand over Europe", if you didn't yet, I guess it explains well why they didn't like Yugoslavia, neither the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

Yes .... i guess most of ex-yugos must read "Black Hand over europe" (http://www.hic.hr/books/blackhand/) if they don't know what the problem for the colapse of yugoslavia really was...

dejan

October 6th, 2007, 11:18 AM

Communists don't have nationality, the totalitarians even less.

Read "Black hand over Europe", if you didn't yet, I guess it explains well why they didn't like Yugoslavia, neither the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

What I don't understand though is the yugonostalgia, same with the nostalgia for the communist times in Bulgaria and the other countries from the ex so called Eastern block. It's beyond me how someone can have the nostalgia over totalitarian times. Times with concentration camps, terror over everyone who even thought to oppose (even some who didn't think about it) and absolute rule of the "average". :ohno:
Mind explaining what the book describes as the 'issue' coz otherwise it just looks like you're on some ulterior motive.

dewrob

October 6th, 2007, 12:36 PM

What I don't understand though is the yugonostalgia, same with the nostalgia for the communist times in Bulgaria and the other countries from the ex so called Eastern block. It's beyond me how someone can have the nostalgia over totalitarian times. Times with concentration camps, terror over everyone who even thought to oppose (even some who didn't think about it) and absolute rule of the "average". :ohno:

it's a thing of habbit midaged-older people spent most of their life in that system and it's too hard for them to change at old age. Every change they experiance as a shock to the system and that's why they crave for the good old times when things were at least stable. U gotta admit, communism was not all about the empty shop and lining up for products of the 80s, things weren't always so bad. Anyways this nostalgia will go down the drain with them. It's been almost two decades, we have new generations, kids who are about to start with university that haven't ever lived in any communism or Yugoslavia or whatever. They will bring the final stage of the transition.

BiH-x

October 6th, 2007, 12:54 PM

I guess its easy to romanticize the past, especially when the present isnt much to brag about.

I dont consider myself Yugonostalgic but I appreciate certain aspects about Yugoslavia (the second one). It doesnt have anything to do with brotherhood with other "Yugoslavs" though. WWII brought with it three possible victors that would determine the fate of Yugoslavia: ustase, cetniks and partisans. There really is no contest as to which was the best option of the three.

Blok

October 6th, 2007, 01:38 PM

I DID IT NOT BECAUSE RELIGION TOLD ME TO OR SIMILAR STUFF BUT BECAUSE I HAD A LARGE PIECE OF MEAT IN FRONT OF MY COCO SO DOCTORS HAD TO CUT IT OF
phymosis ?

KHS

October 6th, 2007, 01:51 PM

hi again :D :lol:

Croatians never liked Yugoslavia, becouse they have been ruled with a milenium, and they didn't have they're own state. Also because they were Nazi oriented (and many still are - the Ustasha movement), but Serbia and other states in Yugoslavia were completely the oposite.

Someone here sad Slovenia had the luck being far away from Serbia, and that Serbia attacked Croatia etc.. Thats a complete lye, becouse Croatians have been arming themselves (the Ustasha movement and the lighter version of it - Franjo Tudjman) long before anyone in Yugoslavia could think of a break up, in the mid eighties .. Why would someone want to mass buy illigaly weapons if they wanted to make a peacefull break up?

Btw Croatia and Serbia where never in a war, becouse JNA (the army of yu. was in a conflict with the croatian Ustasha and JNA main leader was todays(croatia) and backday yu president Stipe Mesic )
Haague tribunal has convicted JNA generals 1 free, other 5 years, and another one 20. The sentence really shows that croatian propaganda is beatable.

Croatians wanted they're own state, ok not a problem, but they deleted from they're own constitution that Serbian people are constitutive ethnicity in the Croatian state.. Thats the main problem.. Its like Belgium declares independance and says francofones are not constitutional any more, or Switzerland with for ex. the italian speaking.
They wanted the war, and they ended it with the most massive ethnic cleansing after WW II, now very few Serbians live in Croatia, they achieved they're goal. Btw. They're everyday politics and life matter, is how to hate Serbs more :D The tensions in resent years have fell, and the croatian society has encounted many problems :D They can't leave in peace with eachother cuz the main reason sticking them firmly together is slightly disapearing.

NOT TRUE!!!
I don't know if I would cry or laugh... :ohno: I never comment war but I can't be silent anymore. :bash:

It is unbelievable how you Serbs see the roles in this war. You think that you were the victims here and not the other way around. Whole worlds perception is wrong. Right?
Serbs fucked up Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo and they even tried to attack Slovenia
(war between Serbia and Slovenia lasted for a couple of days).

You were bombed by NATO! Does this tell you something?

Sve je to belosvetska zavera protiv Nebeskog naroda? :D

Turnovec

October 6th, 2007, 02:08 PM

^^ what is that "Nebeskog naroda" ? ;)

Turnovec

October 6th, 2007, 02:10 PM

WWII brought with it three possible victors that would determine the fate of Yugoslavia: ustase, cetniks and partisans.

I have heard from a friend , that what those 3 groups were doing during wwII was even more baraberious than what happend in the 90-ies ? 2nd yugoslavia just postoponed the enavitable end ... Is that true ?

KHS

October 6th, 2007, 02:18 PM

what is that "Nebeskog naroda" ? ;)

I don't know how to translate this.
NEBESKI = celestial, ethereal, heavenly, sky, supernal
NAROD = nation

Something like Superior nation.

RawLee

October 6th, 2007, 02:22 PM

You were bombed by NATO! Does this tell you something?

The ethnic hungarians in northern Serbia will never forgive us that we allowed NATO to use our airports as bases. A relative of mine told me this story:
He spoke with an ethinc hungarian from Serbia,and this guy said that when he saw that the airplanes,that bombed his homeland,came from the "motherland",he knew that he was hungarian no more.
:ohno::ohno::ohno:

BiH-x

October 6th, 2007, 02:33 PM

I don't know how to translate this.
NEBESKI = celestial, ethereal, heavenly, sky, supernal
NAROD = nation

Something like Superior nation.
Or "heavenly people".

that what those 3 groups were doing during wwII was even more baraberious than what happend in the 90-ies ?
In scale, yes. I dont know if I would put the partisans on par with the other two, even though they have their share of lives on their consience (look up Bleiburg). The Ustase were most organized and thus killed the most people, while the cetniks also massacred people, especially in Sandzak. Bosniaks were mostly partisans, but a number joined the Ustase. Some even joined the cetniks:nuts:
Anyways, the fascist leaders were killed after the war (15 years after in the case of Ante Pavelic). Smrt fasizmu, sloboda narodu:)

KHS

October 6th, 2007, 02:41 PM

Or "heavenly people".

I wouldn't say that. They wanted to emphasise their superiority.

dia

October 6th, 2007, 03:22 PM

Mind explaining what the book describes as the 'issue' coz otherwise it just looks like you're on some ulterior motive.

People have their minds, I don't need to "explain", they will read the Croatian episode by themselves. Everyone sees what he wants to see.

it's a thing of habbit midaged-older people spent most of their life in that system and it's too hard for them to change at old age. Every change they experiance as a shock to the system and that's why they crave for the good old times when things were at least stable. U gotta admit, communism was not all about the empty shop and lining up for products of the 80s, things weren't always so bad. Anyways this nostalgia will go down the drain with them. It's been almost two decades, we have new generations, kids who are about to start with university that haven't ever lived in any communism or Yugoslavia or whatever. They will bring the final stage of the transition.

I agree about the older people, my grandparents were like this. I find though amazing youngsters being very nostalgic. Everyone in a different way but still. I said once here I have couple of very good Serbian friends, and especially one girl. She too, although very pro-total-democracy, peace, prosperity for everyoe- name it, she sometimes tells me, ah Yugoslavia was nice. And what was so nice, I asked her, and she doesn't know exactly. She's telling it was peaceful and nice.

And the fact she's Serbian changes nothing, one of my brothers is much younger than me and when he was 14 or something, I talked with boys from his class, who were 100% positive it was better during the communism in Bulgaria. In Russia you see youngsters who weren't even born during the Gorbachov's rule, and who praise Stalin and dream about those times.

Although the Yugoslav case is a bit different as it was like.. between two worlds, there was still repressions, not full democracy, it was in fact quite pervert because of this. I notice people generally focus more on the ethnic side of the problems, while what I've learned from history, people and articles, the regime was not glorious. So you end up with people who praise the times of this regime who didn't do quasi anything, to not use stronger words, to soften the subjacent conflicts, and even worse.

KHS

October 6th, 2007, 03:30 PM

now very few Serbians live in Croatia, they achieved they're goal.

one third have come back

1/3 is back
1/3 don't want to come back. They are 15 years in Belgrade. They have their lives there(friends, family, job, house, etc.). I wouldn't want to come back.
1/3 is to old to come back. Some of them died. (15 years is a very long time)
There are also lots of Serbs that never left Croatia.

Croatian government builted them new houses. What more can you do? You can't force someone to come back if they don't want to.

I don't hate Serbs. One of my best friends is a Serb and she lived in Croatia during the war. Nobody ever forced her family to leave. I also have 2 friends from Belgrade and they come to Croatia very often. One of them was born in Zagreb. He said that he wasn't forced to leave Croatia. That was their choice. I can't stand Serb politics from 90's and having alternative history from that time.

dewrob

October 6th, 2007, 03:33 PM

@dia

I think in the case of the youngsters they are speaking out of their asses... In most cases it's probably just a typical adolescent rebelion against the system. I remember when I was in the states, 4th year high school, I loved to preach the Americans how it was so nice to live in communism, how their system sucks blah blah blah.... of course whatever argument I used in the discussions were completely arbitrary but I loved opposing them just for the sake of it. Those things fade by the years. Today I'm absolutely positive I'd never live in communism.

Alterlee

October 6th, 2007, 03:34 PM

1/3 is back
1/3 don't want to come back. They are 15 years in Belgrade. They have their lives there(friends, family, job, house, etc.). I wouldn't want to come back.
1/3 is to old to come back. Some of them died. (15 years is a very long time)

Croatian government builted them new houses. What more you can do? You can't force someone to come back if they don't want to.
One third? Are you sane? At best, maybe 1/16 returned, and 80% of that number are elders.

tzooee

October 6th, 2007, 03:35 PM

You are the classic example of: Tko nas bre zaratio? :hm:

1) How can a state be ruled by a milenium, which of course, is a measure of time?

2) Croatia did not have a state eh, I guess we just popped out of the ground somewhere conveniently just before WW1 :nuts:

3) Haha yes bre, Serbia NEVER collaborated with ANYBODY during WW2...
http://www.croradio.net/images/nazichetniks.gif <---Well then, look at that lovely picture:lol:

4) Well bre, you would be arming yourself if you were on the recieving end of documents such as the SANU Memorandom of 1985. According to which Serbs were oppressed by Croat and Slovene commies, even though the capital was in....hint.....BELGRADE!! :banana: ...oh and the military headquarters, and the headquarters of every national organization...=)

5) Oh yea, Croat propaganda bre, in fact, DID YOU KNO? Vukovar was actually destroyed by the Ustase being resurected from 50 years of solitude!!!! :eek2: Oh my gawd!!!! How could those evil Ustase with their mig20s and M-84 tanks...oh wait, that was the JNA, OUR BAD!:) Just some neighboorly love bre.

6) Haha so all of a suden the Hague tribunal is a beacon of justice eh :nuts:
But when the "innocent" (and starving:lol: ) Seselj is to blame, the Hague is nothing but EU/NATO/Anti Serb Propaganda :banana:

7) Lemme guess, Kosovo is yours because of International Law. That same law you had so much fun breaking back in the 90s..or some other new neighboorly love international law?
Ziveli:cheers:

1) You had no state for a milenium.. Whatever

2) You had some kind of a little autonomy under the austrohungarian regime.

3) That picture is from a croatian site, I know how strong croatian propaganda is, I wouldn't be suprised you made it, although there are evidence that Titos assosiates made some "evidences" that prove aleged collaboration. Btw for anyone that wants to, just find what medal Draza Mihajlovic has got from the USA..

4) What's wrong with your croatian oppresion, was that a lye?? Your opresion culminated with the biggest ethnic cleansing in Europe after WW II.

5) Vukovar is destroyed cuz many ustashas were fighting the legitimate JNA (jugoslav army). In that army were all nationalities in the EX-yu, ofcourse - the croatian ustasha's and the light version of it. The commander of the JNA was today president of Croatia Stipe Mesic, witch was also the president of Yu back then. Jna was legitimate in croatia back than, and you can see in the ruling of the Haggue tribunal.

6) What about Seselj? I personaly don't like him, but the court allowed everything he asked... And he is like 5 years there without having trial :nuts: .. They trial him for SOMETHING HE SAID, not SOMETHING HE HAS DONE..

7) Yes Kosovo is ours under the international law, and will remain in years to come.

tzooee

October 6th, 2007, 03:41 PM

Communists don't have nationality, the totalitarians even less.

Read "Black hand over Europe", if you didn't yet, I guess it explains well why they didn't like Yugoslavia, neither the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

What I don't understand though is the yugonostalgia, same with the nostalgia for the communist times in Bulgaria and the other countries from the ex so called Eastern block. It's beyond me how someone can have the nostalgia over totalitarian times. Times with concentration camps, terror over everyone who even thought to oppose (even some who didn't think about it) and absolute rule of the "average". :ohno:

You cannot compare socialism in Yugoslavia and communism in Bulgaria..

nero

October 6th, 2007, 03:41 PM

I wouldn't say that. They wanted to emphasise their superiority.

Now why would we want to emphasize such an obvious thing? :D
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8827/kolceis7.gif

Alterlee

October 6th, 2007, 03:41 PM

BTW, bre in Turkish means idiot or something like that.

Turnovec

October 6th, 2007, 03:42 PM

I don't know how to translate this.
NEBESKI = celestial, ethereal, heavenly, sky, supernal
NAROD = nation

Something like Superior nation.

I know what this means :) in bulgarian "Nebesen narod" ;) ... probably one who thinks of himself as the God's elect (http://www.nokia.com/)

Turnovec

October 6th, 2007, 03:44 PM

You cannot compare socialism in Yugoslavia and communism in Bulgaria..

The scars of komunism or socialism which dia is talking about were the same ... Goli Otok etc. ... The only difference is that the yugos who didn't agree with the system were allowed to leave abroad. That is mainly the only difference.

tzooee

October 6th, 2007, 03:44 PM

NOT TRUE!!!
I don't know if I would cry or laugh... :ohno: I never comment war but I can't be silent anymore. :bash:

It is unbelievable how you Serbs see the roles in this war. You think that you were the victims here and not the other way around. Whole worlds perception is wrong. Right?
Serbs fucked up Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo and they even tried to attack Slovenia
(war between Serbia and Slovenia lasted for a couple of days).

You were bombed by NATO! Does this tell you something?

Sve je to belosvetska zavera protiv Nebeskog naroda? :D

And what makes your opinion legitimate? Man croatia still has propaganda from the nighties... See that in your post :D Whatever, whan u grow up, i mean mentaly, we could have a discussion..

Btw do u still title serbian films ??? :D

tzooee

October 6th, 2007, 03:47 PM

The ethnic hungarians in northern Serbia will never forgive us that we allowed NATO to use our airports as bases. A relative of mine told me this story:
He spoke with an ethinc hungarian from Serbia,and this guy said that when he saw that the airplanes,that bombed his homeland,came from the "motherland",he knew that he was hungarian no more.
:ohno::ohno::ohno:

A hungarian was the captain of the unit witch brought down this "invisible" airplane, I forgot his name :nuts:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117_02-front.jpg

Turnovec

October 6th, 2007, 03:48 PM

Or "heavenly people".

In scale, yes. I dont know if I would put the partisans on par with the other two, even though they have their share of lives on their consience (look up Bleiburg). The Ustase were most organized and thus killed the most people, while the cetniks also massacred people, especially in Sandzak. Bosniaks were mostly partisans, but a number joined the Ustase. Some even joined the cetniks:nuts:
Anyways, the fascist leaders were killed after the war (15 years after in the case of Ante Pavelic). Smrt fasizmu, sloboda narodu:)

I know what you are talking about :) from my ex-yugo friend i have heard how in Hercegovina there were cetnik and partizan villages who heighboured each other.

tzooee

October 6th, 2007, 03:48 PM

1/3 is back
1/3 don't want to come back. They are 15 years in Belgrade. They have their lives there(friends, family, job, house, etc.). I wouldn't want to come back.
1/3 is to old to come back. Some of them died. (15 years is a very long time)
There are also lots of Serbs that never left Croatia.

Croatian government builted them new houses. What more can you do? You can't force someone to come back if they don't want to.

I don't hate Serbs. One of my best friends is a Serb and she lived in Croatia during the war. Nobody ever forced her family to leave. I also have 2 friends from Belgrade and they come to Croatia very often. One of them was born in Zagreb. He said that he wasn't forced to leave Croatia. That was their choice. I can't stand Serb politics from 90's and having alternative history from that time.

Lol yes, you did nothing, everything is just as it was before the war... Lol :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Croatians really love the 1/3 thing.. In the WW II they said :

1/3 of the serbs shall be killed
1/3 of the serbs shall be send to Jasenovac (the nazi death camp)
1/3 of the serbs shall be made catholic

Alterlee

October 6th, 2007, 03:51 PM

A hungarian was the captain of the unit witch brought down this "invisible" airplane, I forgot his name :nuts:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117_02-front.jpg
Zoltan Dani.

Turnovec

October 6th, 2007, 04:00 PM

People have their minds, I don't need to "explain", they will read the Croatian episode by themselves. Everyone sees what he wants to see.

I agree about the older people, my grandparents were like this. I find though amazing youngsters being very nostalgic. Everyone in a different way but still. I said once here I have couple of very good Serbian friends, and especially one girl. She too, although very pro-total-democracy, peace, prosperity for everyoe- name it, she sometimes tells me, ah Yugoslavia was nice. And what was so nice, I asked her, and she doesn't know exactly. She's telling it was peaceful and nice.

And the fact she's Serbian changes nothing, one of my brothers is much younger than me and when he was 14 or something, I talked with boys from his class, who were 100% positive it was better during the communism in Bulgaria. In Russia you see youngsters who weren't even born during the Gorbachov's rule, and who praise Stalin and dream about those times.

Although the Yugoslav case is a bit different as it was like.. between two worlds, there was still repressions, not full democracy, it was in fact quite pervert because of this. I notice people generally focus more on the ethnic side of the problems, while what I've learned from history, people and articles, the regime was not glorious. So you end up with people who praise the times of this regime who didn't do quasi anything, to not use stronger words, to soften the subjacent conflicts, and even worse.

You are right dia ... no need to explain Henri Pozzi and his "Black hand over Europe". People have their own minds , they can read and think.

I can tell about one of my grand fathers , a veteran who fought in the ww2 after 9 sept. 1944 passing by macedonia, serbia, drava river , Balaton and reaching to Budapest with the russians . Right after the changes i was telling him about the Stalin's Gulag's and he just could believe this was true. Stalin couldn't do such things he was saying ... but unfotunately we all know what truth is now.

And as i said above ... the only difference between our communism and the yugo one was that after some year the ones who didn't agree with the system were allowed to leave abroad. they had Goli otok etc... they had everything we had here too.

btw have you watched the co-production of Bulgaria and Macedonia „Подгряване на вчерашния обяд“ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0339522/) by the book of Mile Nedelkovski ? Quite a thrilling movie indeed ...

BiH-x

October 6th, 2007, 04:11 PM

I know what this means :) in bulgarian "Nebesen narod" ;) ... probably one who thinks of himself as the God's elect (http://www.nokia.com/)

lol

Alterlee

October 6th, 2007, 04:16 PM

You are right dia ... no need to explain Henri Pozzi and his "Black hand over Europe". People have their own minds , they can read and think.
Well, history proved him wrong. :lol:

RawLee

October 6th, 2007, 04:16 PM

A hungarian was the captain of the unit witch brought down this "invisible" airplane, I forgot his name :nuts:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117_02-front.jpg

We know,there will be a program about him tomorrow on tv:)

AstroBoy

October 6th, 2007, 04:18 PM

1) You had no state for a milenium.. Whatever

:lol: As if Serbia had a state for the last millenium too. At least Croatia under King Tomislav was a kingdom long before Serbia ever was.

2) You had some kind of a little autonomy under the austrohungarian regime.

Thats right, considerable autonomy. A lot more than what Serbia enjoyed under the Ottomans for 500 years which was zilch. ;)

3) That picture is from a croatian site, I know how strong croatian propaganda is, I wouldn't be suprised you made it, although there are evidence that Titos assosiates made some "evidences" that prove aleged collaboration. Btw for anyone that wants to, just find what medal Draza Mihajlovic has got from the USA..

Draza Mihailovic was no saint. He was a known collaborator with the Nazis which explains why Churchill insisted supporting the Partisans and not him. At the start of WW2, the Allies supported the Chetniks, then midway through the war they supported Tito. Mihailovic was known well as a Nazi collaborator and more so with the Italian Fascists.

4) What's wrong with your croatian oppresion, was that a lye?? Your opresion culminated with the biggest ethnic cleansing in Europe after WW II.

Kid yourself as much as you like. Whatever makes you sleep at night. The biggest oppressor was Slobodan Milosevic which pushed one by one the Yugoslav republics to abandon a common state with Serbia. The fact that Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Montenegro and now Kosovo want to leave an association with Serbia speaks many words for itself. Six versus one shows who was percieved to be the oppressor!

5) Vukovar is destroyed cuz many ustashas were fighting the legitimate JNA (jugoslav army). In that army were all nationalities in the EX-yu, ofcourse - the croatian ustasha's and the light version of it. The commander of the JNA was today president of Croatia Stipe Mesic, witch was also the president of Yu back then. Jna was legitimate in croatia back than, and you can see in the ruling of the Haggue tribunal.

Vukovar was in Croatia which voted for independence. There is no justification for the total destruction of a city. Look at the pictures below which shows Yugoslav Peoples Army soldiers side by side with Serbians extremist Chetniks before making a stupid and insulting remarks that Vukovar was destroyed by supposed Croat Ustashi. :|

6) What about Seselj? I personaly don't like him, but the court allowed everything he asked... And he is like 5 years there without having trial :nuts: .. They trial him for SOMETHING HE SAID, not SOMETHING HE HAS DONE..

Whatever. The dribble you post here and your complex clearly shows you whorship sickos like Seselj, Arkan, Karadzic, Mladic, and Milosevic. :ohno:

7) Yes Kosovo is ours under the international law, and will remain in years to come.

Kosovo is another failure in your efforts to create a "Greater Serbia".

The "so-called Yugoslav People's Army" side by side with "Greater Serbian" extremists and paramilitaries, the "Chetniks" in Vukovar Croatia after its fall -

http://www.safaric-safaric.si/1991-2006_Vukovar.jpg

http://www.zamislisrbiju.org/foto/idc_foto_02/images/4-Hrvatska%2091.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/426/serbsinvukovarlj4.jpg

Turnovec

October 6th, 2007, 04:23 PM

Well, history proved him wrong. :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

BiH-x

October 6th, 2007, 04:30 PM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Chetniks_with_German_soldiers.jpg

http://bhmedia.se/slike/cetnici%20sa%20italijanskim%20fasistima.jpg

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/769/pismodmnadbiskupustepincu0if.jpg

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/handzar/han14.jpg

http://www.pionirovglasnik.com/images/content/drazaipavelic.jpg

^^Human filth:)

tzooee

October 6th, 2007, 04:47 PM

:lol: As if Serbia had a state for the last millenium too. At least Croatia under King Tomislav was a kingdom long before Serbia ever was.

Serbia was indeed a state much longer than croatia in many forms :D Serbia had acted as a real nation, not like croatians, who always enjoyed being some autonomous slavic tribe in the austrohungarian rule :D Even today, you are using many of the things the Serb nation has "invented".. Face it..
Do you know the thing on the church in Germany : "Sacuvaj me Boze kuge i hrvata" :lol:

Thats right, considerable autonomy. A lot more than what Serbia enjoyed under the Ottomans for 500 years which was zilch. ;)
Your autonomy was how to chop the wood you were giving to the austrian emperor :D Do we chop it on the side or how :D You are ridiculous .

Draza Mihailovic was no saint. He was a known collaborator with the Nazis which explains why Churchill insisted supporting the Partisans and not him. At the start of WW2, the Allies supported the Chetniks, then midway through the war they supported Tito. Mihailovic was known well as a Nazi collaborator and more so with the Italian Fascists.
If Draza was a collaborator he would not help so many american pilots back then and recieve a medal from the president of the USA. The collaboration thing are just a communist lie. The real nazi's in Yugoslavia, were CROATIAN.. There are many evidences and films, wich show how well the german army was welcomed in Zagreb.. The same ideology was fighting the Serbis in the nighties..

Kid yourself as much as you like. Whatever makes you sleep at night. The biggest oppressor was Slobodan Milosevic which pushed one by one the Yugoslav republics to abandon a common state with Serbia. The fact that Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Montenegro and now Kosovo want to leave an association with Serbia speaks many words for itself. Six versus one shows who was percieved to be the oppressor!
For sure macedonia, montenegro didn't leave Yugoslavia cuz of Serbia.. Bosnia even whants to merge with Serbia, at least half of it :lol: Yes yes Serbia was the oppresor and you armed yourself in the mid eighties and before that.. Croatians even bombed yugoslav embasies, and did assasinations ... That kind of people had the bigest role in croatia after in the war.. They became croatia's idelogy leaders ..
Vukovar was in Croatia which voted for independence. There is no justification for the total destruction of a city. Look at the pictures below which shows Yugoslav Peoples Army soldiers side by side with Serbians extremist Chetniks before making a stupid and insulting remarks that Vukovar was destroyed by supposed Croat Ustashi. :|
Yes vukovar was destroyed by ustasha.. If they flew the city, it wouldn't be destroyed.. Simple as that.. And how many Serbs were killed even before JNA reacted.. How many JNA solders were killed long before everithing started ( Jna= serb, macedonia, montenegro, bosnian, albanian, hungarian.... )
Whatever. The dribble you post here and your complex clearly shows you whorship sickos like Seselj, Arkan, Karadzic, Mladic, and Milosevic. :ohno: I think you croatians have a real complex of the Serbian nation :D We where always a nation and you were the things above ^^ In your post its clear you are a supporter of the Ustasha's dead leader Franjo Tudjman, Ante Gotovina witch is awaiting the highest sentence in the Haggue tribunal, and many others. You even have a Ustasha Nazi SINGER.. Thats how pathetic you really are.. For those who don't know, in Croatia there is a popular singer called Thompson.. His songs are glorifing the Ustasha movement in the II WW and in the '90.. He glorifies the Jasenovac death camp, on his concerts people come in black ustasha uniforms, have the letter U on they're head, even many jew organizations from abroad have condemned him and his "artwork".. The saddest thing of all is that his concert are broadcasted via the NATINAL TV OF CROATIA hrt !

Kosovo is another failure in your efforts to create a "Greater Serbia". this is pathetic :D

The "so-called Yugoslav People's Army" side by side with "Greater Serbian" extremists and paramilitaries, the "Chetniks" in Vukovar Croatia after its fall -

I think it is inapropriate if i place here a fotograph of croatian Ustashas killing a baby..

Alterlee

October 6th, 2007, 04:49 PM

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Well it did. Seven years later Bulgarian army, while exploiting YU defeat from Germans, occupied southern Serbia and Macedonia. And poor guy tried so hard to prove that it was the Serbs that want to "conquer" their neighbors, not the otherwise. :lol:

BiH-x

October 6th, 2007, 04:49 PM

I think it is inapropriate if i place here a fotograph of croatian Ustashas killing a baby..

The real nazi's in Yugoslavia, were CROATIAN

Yet your hero Draza teamed up with nazis (ustase too) to fight partisans. Take a look at the pics I posted:)

BiH-x

October 6th, 2007, 04:52 PM

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/769/pismodmnadbiskupustepincu0if.jpg

In case you dont want to scroll up

Alterlee

October 6th, 2007, 04:52 PM

Serbia was indeed a state much longer than croatia in many forms :D Serbia had acted as a real nation, not like croatians, who always enjoyed being some autonomous slavic tribe in the austrohungarian rule :D Even today, you are using many of the things the Serb nation has "invented".. Face it..
Do you know the thing on the church in Germany : "Sacuvaj me Boze kuge i hrvata" :lol:

Your autonomy was how to chop the wood you were giving to the austrian emperor :D Do we chop it on the side or how :D You are ridiculous .

If Draza was a collaborator he would not help so many american pilots back then and recieve a medal from the president of the USA. The collaboration thing are just a communist lie. The real nazi's in Yugoslavia, were CROATIAN.. There are many evidences and films, wich show how well the german army was welcomed in Zagreb.. The same ideology was fighting the Serbis in the nighties..

For sure macedonia, montenegro didn't leave Yugoslavia cuz of Serbia.. Bosnia even whants to merge with Serbia, at least half of it :lol: Yes yes Serbia was the oppresor and you armed yourself in the mid eighties and before that.. Croatians even bombed yugoslav embasies, and did assasinations ... That kind of people had the bigest role in croatia after in the war.. They became croatia's idelogy leaders ..

Yes vukovar was destroyed by ustasha.. If they flew the city, it wouldn't be destroyed.. Simple as that.. And how many Serbs were killed even before JNA reacted.. How many JNA solders were killed long before everithing started ( Jna= serb, macedonia, montenegro, bosnian, albanian, hungarian.... )
I think you croatians have a real complex of the Serbian nation :D We where always a nation and you were the things above ^^ In your post its clear you are a supporter of the Ustasha's dead leader Franjo Tudjman, Ante Gotovina witch is awaiting the highest sentence in the Haggue tribunal, and many others. You even have a Ustasha Nazi SINGER.. Thats how pathetic you really are.. For those who don't know, in Croatia there is a popular singer called Thompson.. His songs are glorifing the Ustasha movement in the II WW and in the '90.. He glorifies the Jasenovac death camp, on his concerts people come in black ustasha uniforms, have the letter U on they're head, even many jew organizations from abroad have condemned him and his "artwork".. The saddest thing of all is that his concert are broadcasted via the NATINAL TV OF CROATIA hrt !

this is pathetic :D

I think it is inapropriate if i place here a fotograph of croatian Ustashas killing a baby..
Man, don't reply to them. You're making an arse out of yourself and out of rest of us.