Faster North/South rail link? Dare we hope on a new line being built, or is this just the WAG getting Arrivatrains to stick a faster train on the current Holyhead to Cardiff line via Shrewsbury?

This quote offers hope for something visionary and dramatic, but can they really afford it? ""Between north and south Wales, an average over 130 miles of five hours driving time is around 25mph. But people in France are being moved at 200mph by train. Clearly we have to do something quite radical about the north-south link."

There's no way they can get 200mph trains on the Shrewsbury line.


New transport plan to be unveiled
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7022491.stm

A four-year plan to improve Wales' transport system is expected to be revealed by the Welsh Assembly Government.

It will include proposals for a faster north-south rail link, coach services and "substantial" A470 improvements.

Transport minister Ieuan Wyn Jones is also expected to announce a number of "model" towns to bring together public transport, cycling and walking.

These towns across Wales will benefit from improved integrated facilities.

Developing integrated local transport is a crucial part of the strategy, BBC Wales understands.

Bus and train stations in the model towns could be brought closer together if necessary.

In a statement to Assembly Members, Mr Jones will also outline a need to "strategically enhance" the capacity of east-west roads and "exploit the full potential" of the rail network.

He will suggest that the transport network must strike a balance between Wales' economic, social and environmental aims.

Road expenditure is thought likely to reach £350m over the next four years.

Stuart Cole, professor of transport at the Wales Transport Research Centre, described the current driving times between north and south Wales as "unacceptable".

"Other European economies are moving people far faster," he said.

"Between north and south Wales, an average over 130 miles of five hours driving time is around 25mph. But people in France are being moved at 200mph by train.

"Clearly we have to do something quite radical about the north-south link."

But he said that making the A470 - a dual carriageway from north to south - would not only be expensive but it could also damage some of Wales' most beautiful regions.

"People are not looking for a dual carriageway trunk road through the middle of Snowdonia," he said.

"So we have really got to think very carefully about what our options are."

Chris Mason, a director of Newport-based hauliers RJ Mason said it avoided routes to mid and north Wales because of the connections.

But he said, better transport links would kick start local economies.

"When they opened the Heads of the Valleys road you found more and more businesses were prepared to move into the area and expand," he said.

'Stranglehold'

Improving road and rail links between north and south Wales is part of the One Wales document agreed between Labour and Plaid Cymru when they formed a coalition Welsh Assembly Government in July.

Last month Mr Jones announced a proposed M4 relief road from Magor to Castleton could open in 2013.

That statement was prompted by heavy congestion in the Newport area when the motorway was closed for eight hours after a collision in which five people died.

Last week business leaders in Cardiff called for drivers to be charged for using roads to pay for an overhaul of transport to stop a "stranglehold" on the south east Wales economy.

The city's chamber of commerce warned the Welsh economy would fall behind other parts of the UK unless roads were improved.

"Clearly we have to do something quite radical about the north-south link."

Why? Where is the demand?

Economically, it is MUCH more important to improve links between areas in Wales and their adjacent areas in England. In particular, we need to remove bottlenecks around Flintshire in the north, Newport in the south, and improve links between Mid Wales and the Midlands. The road between Newtown and Shrewsbury should be improved.

However, a massive investment in infrastructure improving the A470 or in terms of new rail links would not be a wise investment. In terms of rail-links we would do much better improvings links from Wales to the Midlands and London. Cardiff-Birmingham, only 90 miles or so, is a travesty.

If improvements in roads between North and South Wales are desired, the only route with some economic merit as I see it would be: The A470 upto Builth Wells, the A483 to Oswestry and the A5 to Wrexham. This would help connect South East/Central Wales with North East Wales - and would help connect South Wales with the North West, and if combined with improvements in the A5 Oswestry-Shrewsbury, could provide an alternative to the congested M56/M6 for North Walian traffic to the Midlands.

We should not be thinking "within Wales".. in a fully integrated economy like the UK, businesses sure don't, atleast beyond a tokenistic nature. We should be thinking "between markets". It is not analagous to France - where the remaining barriers to trade and movement across borders (language, custom, regulations etc) mean that business does care about borders - but even here they have invested in cross-border services where towns are very heavily integrated with neighbouring nations (e.g. Strasbourg and the Rhineland).

There is very little detail in this policy announcement. No mention of any specific costed schemes on the WAG website. It looks like a nat-pleasing empty gesture to me. :nuts:

Pondle -I think you're right, I've been trying to eek out the details from the obvious sources (eg BBC) but I'm unsure what exactly it is that has been announced:nuts: Can anyone else explain in jargon free language, excluding the words feasibility, improvement and study?

It may come as something of a shock to some people here, but not every government policy has to be based purely on economics. Nation-building and promoting national cohesion are perfectly legitimate aims for any government and such schemes in the transport sector are hardly unexpected when you have a Plaid transport minister.

We now have an administration where a third of the ministers are nationalists, so nationalist stuff is gonna happen occasionally. Better learn to deal with it.

Lyndon, -if we miraculously had a massive pot of cash, I'd rather see intra city upgrades of public transport in the Wrexham,Swansea,Cardiff and Newport areas than an singing all dancing new motorway through the heart of Wales. Don't you think the people of Wales would benefit more as a nation with the latter?

There are usually only a couple of reasons why the Government should spend taxpayers' money on something - to provide public goods that the market cannot adequately deliver or to promote social equity. "Nation-building", whatever the hell that means, ain't one of 'em. Have a look at the HM Treasury Green Book if you don't believe me (http://greenbook.treasury.gov.uk/chapter03.htm)

The Eddington Review of Transport said that the new transport developments in the UK should focus on supporting the long term growth of the economy, which is threatened by our relatively poor infrastructure. His assessment of the priorities were:

• growing and congested urban areas and their catchments;
• key international gateways; and
• key inter-urban corridors.

North-south links in Wales, a corridor where there are less than 100 journeys per day (I remember reading a stat like that in some old WAG document) does not qualify as a sensible use of taxpayers' money.

I'm not surprised that we have cock-eyed transport policies, because no-one in Plaid understands economics 101. Their solution to the housing affordability problem was to give first time buyers grants. So more money chasing the same supply. Result? Higher prices. D'oh! Here endeth the basic lesson in the first principles of economics, Ieuan.

All government spending is ultimately political, and the "science" of economics has always consisted largely of telling the rich and powerful exactly what they want to hear. I'd imagine Ieuan's figured that out already.

There's something about this finally on the WAG site now

Hmmm "“In addition, I have asked my officials to investigate the feasibility of a new faster rail service, including business class facilities, which would operate southbound in the morning and northbound in the evening”, he said."


http://new.wales.gov.uk/news/presreleasearchive/1700673/?lang=en
North-South links the key to 21st Century One Wales
New transport plans will create stronger links between north and south and a greener Wales, Transport Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones has told Assembly Members. A current review of the timing of improvements to the Welsh Assembly Government’s trunk road scheme will mean that investment in north-south links will be significantly greater than the £50 million committed in the ‘One Wales’ document.

Both rail and coach links between north and south are also set for improvement, with an upgraded railway timetable to be introduced in December 2008, said Mr Jones, Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport.

“In addition, I have asked my officials to investigate the feasibility of a new faster rail service, including business class facilities, which would operate southbound in the morning and northbound in the evening”, he said.

Mr Jones, who outlined his transport priorities for the next four years, told AMs that he would lead an ambitious programme to achieve the Government's vision of building 'One Wales'.

“Improving transport links throughout Wales will make our economy more competitive and will bring the people of our nation closer together”.

The key priority is to develop a network that strikes a balance between the nation's economic, social and environmental objectives – recognising the distinctive needs of different parts of Wales, rural communities as well as urban centres, he said.

The Assembly Government will also tackle pinch-points affecting the M4 and A55 east-west routes, with strategic capacity enhancements for the Trans-European corridors across both North and South Wales.

Developing integrated local transport will form a crucial part of the strategy and support the Wales’ carbon reduction target.

A new Sustainable Travel Towns initiative will enable a number of towns to become exemplars in terms of sustainable travel, with greatly enhanced opportunities for walking and cycling, improved public transport and better travel planning.

Other key points from the transport statement include:

An enhanced TrawsCambria long-distance coach service, with new routes and higher standards of service;
A new Safe Routes in Communities programme from April 2008;
Doubling the level of European funding for sustainable transport projects under the EU Convergence Programme.
October 2, 2007

Grandiose Nation-building schemes are not a legitimate use of money provided by a set of taxpayers who have no appetite for an independent Wales, and a set of taxpayers outside of Wales. This is my problem with the nationalists; everything is turned into an opportunity to focus on the "nation" of Wales, and ultimately towards leaving the union. Linking the north and south has nothing to do with prosperity, but everything to do with an attempt to make Wales feel more like a coherent nation. This is something I would rather my tax dollars not go on. Links within regions and between Wales and England would much more greatly benefit the average Welshman and woman.

Totally agree!

All government spending is ultimately political, and the "science" of economics has always consisted largely of telling the rich and powerful exactly what they want to hear. I'd imagine Ieuan's figured that out already.

So Lyndon, you think Plaid's idea of first time buyer grants was sensible?

The "science" of economics (and I acknowledge that it's a social science, not a hard science) is simply about choices and decision-making. There are numerous schools of thought within the discipline, it isn't a monolithic bloc of opinion!

I'm just asking Ieaun to apply some rationality to policymaking.

This is something I would rather my tax dollars not go on.

wrong currency. :lol: unless you want us to adopt the U.S Dollar? :bash:

I couldn't support better links between North and South Wales more if i tried. So long as the government doesn't spend an obscene amount on it.

I couldn't support better links between North and South Wales more if i tried. So long as the government doesn't spend an obscene amount on it.

Stuart Cole from Uni Glam reckons cutting rail travel time between Bangor and Cardiff to 3.5 hrs would cost £100-120m... clearly not worth it for a handful of daily journeys.

wouldn't that depend on the route,frequency of services and the number and size of the towns/cities they would stop at?

My opinion rests on these factors. I'm not simply going to throw it off-hand because *gasp* It sounds of nation building*/gasp* :)

*everyone recoil in horror* :P

Incredibly it would appear that ALL the political parties are in favour of better/faster links between north and south. Obviously Plaid and Labour seem to share that goal. The comments from the LibDems and Cons are not about waste of public money, better links between east and west etc but a criticism that the plans are not detailed enough. The Cons are particularly up in arms about lack of meat on the bones regarding the A470 which they describe as little more than a dirt track north of Merthyr.

An internet poll on icwales (of little value I know but what else is there?) suggests that 70% of respondents are in favour of better north-south links.

Does this suggest that there is an appetite for 'nation building' from the public and our elected representatives? Is this an 'if you build it they will come' scenario? Very little traffic between north-south at the moment, but with a fast road/3 hours on the train the north opens up to the south and vice versa?

I tend to agree that what counts is the loose change in Joe Publics pocket and the reality is that east to west is where the economic reality lies BUT there does appear to be some appetite to draw the country closer together and if thats the case isn't at least reviewing transport links a legitimate aim?

I couldn't support better links between North and South Wales more if i tried. So long as the government doesn't spend an obscene amount on it.
Not wishing to start another pointless nationalist debate again, but why?

Trouble is the icwales poll is pretty meaningless (surprise surprise) as I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't mind better links. They may as well of asked 'would you like to see road improvements' and it's a fair bet most people would say yes.

The problem with spending loads on a North South link entirely within Wales is who would it serve? There are no sizeable settlements in the North, Wrexham is the biggest but it's still pretty small.

If you wanted to build a big road from Wrexham to Cardiff you are confronted with the reality that south from Wrexham there is Newtown and Welshpool (both tiny), then Llandrindod and Builth (very tiny), Brecon (very tiny) then you're into the valleys, so not much demand there.

And as for a route from NW Wales, there is nowhere that would provide even the small demand for links to Cardiff that Wrexham would. All in all it's difficult to justify a scheme like this.

If the money is available for such a grandiose project, spend it on trams for Cardiff and Swansea, better road and rail links from the valleys to Cardiff and local projects elsewhere in Wales together with links from the North to Liverpool/Manchester and from the South to Bristol and Southern England.

If anything could be done on the rail front a bit more cheaply, maybe linking up the gaps in West Wales with a single track to start with so that passengers and freight could travel up from Cardiff and Swansea to Aberystwyth and on to Bangor and Holyhead might be worthwhile. :dunno:

http://www.cycle-n-sleep.co.uk/train%20map/wales_01.gif

You've got to remember that North Wales has far more social 'issues' than South Wales.

It's got high unemployment and, for a relatively rural area, has serious anti-social behaviour problems.

The North/South link isn't to meet current demand - it's to encourage businesses and people living in South Wales to move north. They recently launched the scheduled Anglesey to Cardiff air route, and the welsh assembly's new offices are being built (eventually) by Llandudno.

This isn't to do with nationalism - it's to do with helping an large area of the country that badly needs investment.

You've got to remember that North Wales has far more social 'issues' than South Wales.

It's got high unemployment and, for a relatively rural area, has serious anti-social behaviour problems.

The North/South link isn't to meet current demand - it's to encourage businesses and people living in South Wales to move north. They recently launched the scheduled Anglesey to Cardiff air route, and the welsh assembly's new offices are being built (eventually) by Llandudno.

This isn't to do with nationalism - it's to do with helping an large area of the country that badly needs investment.

The South Wales valleys have their fair share of unemployment and decay too. I can't say i've noticed any more anti-social behaviour in the north than in the south to be honest.

Cardiff is doing pretty well and monmouthshire is fairly prosperous but the rest of the south is not very well off by national (UK) standards. In the north many of the coastal resorts are dumps but Wrexham and the surrounding area is probably as strong ecnomically as Newport, Cwmbran or Swansea while Snowdonia, like Pembrokshire has tourism.

I don't see how an expensive new road to the south will encourage lots of people to move north, you'd probably have more luck improving existing links to England to encourage Liverpudlians and Mancunians to move there and using the spare cash to improve local transport.

Not wishing to start another pointless nationalist debate again, but why?

To further unify North and South Wales, where natural geography has split Wales in half for the longest time. I have a mate in mid Wales, who came to Cardiff to watch the rugby match, it took him in excess of 5 hours, a disgusting length of time for a county that is relatively small. This is only one example of many incidents where North and Mid-Walians (and vice versa) can't "come and go" between N and S Wales because transport infastructure is so dire.

Dare I say, Cardiff to the valleys is awful as it is (by rail). *remembers one train an hour to Merthyr Tydfil*

An internet poll on icwales (of little value I know but what else is there?) suggests that 70% of respondents are in favour of better north-south links.

Karldiff, that doesn't surprise me at all! It's patently insane that Welsh people have to travel miles into England to get to North Wales, while a rail network could half the time by running through mid Wales.

Again, this scheme depends on the factors i already mentioned and i'd like to see feasible projections.

This isn't to do with nationalism - it's to do with helping an large area of the country that badly needs investment.

Couldn't agree more, N.W is in need of investment and if this promotes it, the Welsh government AND the culture of Wales. Certainly worth it in the long run. :)

To further unify North and South Wales, where natural geography has split Wales in half for the longest time.

Karldiff, that doesn't surprise me at all! It's patently insane that Welsh people have to travel miles into England to get to North Wales, while a rail network could half the time by running through mid Wales.

Couldn't agree more, N.W is in need of investment and if this promotes it, the Welsh government AND the culture of Wales. Certainly worth it in the long run. :)

This is where the fundamental disagreement lies, however. I consider myself Welsh and am proud of my Welsh heritage; but I do not see it as the Assembly's role to be a nation-builder. A nation-building project is all about making citizens of a country "feel" a stronger sense of unity and closer identification with the nation. To a limited extent, this is desirable - to prevent divisions arising, to show commonality across social,ethnic and geographic groups. However, beyond a certain point this is not a legitimate exercise of government.

I worry that with Plaid in government, there will be attempts to twist "genuine" national-cohesion policies into nation-building policies; comments about Welsh Olympics teams, or new Welsh language acts, or schools promoting the "importance of a distinct Welsh identity" are just the thin wedge. Attempts at "uniting Wales" are good if it is about allowing participation in democracy, or in allowing access to services, or improving access to employment and markets - but when it becomes about "Welshness" per se, thats what I have an issue with.

So what if you have to travel through England to get to South Wales? Its just an arbitrary border. You are right to the extent that one should take account of such things as access to the cultural and political services in Cardiff when evaluating the "benefit" of improved rail links - but whether that means improvements to current routes via England doesn't matter. Any attempt to have routes only "via Wales" seems to cross the boundary I put above - it becomes about separating Wales from England, which is something I am definitely not in favour of.

Think of it this way. A majority in Northern Ireland wish to remain in the UK - is it a legitimate policy of the Northern Irish Assembly to try to promote Northern Ireland's position within the Union? Undertake initiatives that emphasise the links between NI and England, Scotland and Wales as opposed to Eire? I think we could say no. In terms of transport, the investment is on improving links with the South - because thats where the economic interest lies.

So what if you have to travel through England to get to South Wales?.

Somehow I doubt you'd be saying that if you lived in Llandidloes...

Its just an arbitrary border. .

I'm just guessing here, but i think you are implying some form of nationalism. What may I call England instead that may no longer sound as though it's Welsh nationalism?

The fact of the matter is, it is unfair to travel miles in the opposite direction to get to your destination. It DOES NOT matter if that's through England, Ireland or Zimbabwe for all I care. Don't make it a Wales vs England debate Cambo... It's getting old, fast.

but I do not see it as the Assembly's role to be a nation-builder. A nation-building project is all about making citizens of a country "feel" a stronger sense of unity and closer identification with the nation. To a limited extent, this is desirable - to prevent divisions arising, to show commonality across social,ethnic and geographic groups. However, beyond a certain point this is not a legitimate exercise of government.

Government is regarded differently by all, depending upon their perspective, ideology, culture or opinion. I think we, as a people have become so infatuated with what makes us he same, that we forget what makes us different.

So long as the Welsh government never preaches superiority over any nationality or endorses hatred of any kind toward any nationality, creed, race, colour or sexuality, they have my support in furthering Wales inside and out (within reason of course).

Hey, If the British government spent millions on the epic failure of millennium dome, I'm sure we can spend millions on further transport links that will be used.

but whether that means improvements to current routes via England doesn't matter. Any attempt to have routes only "via Wales" seems to cross the boundary I put above - it becomes about separating Wales from England, which is something I am definitely not in favour of.

If you look at a map, you can clearly see that the fastest and most direct route from Cardiff, to Bangor for instance, is through Wales itself. Why does ANYTHING mentioned about ANYTHING in Wales, always have to turn into nationalism?! Some people on these boards are incredibly paranoid about it.

I doubt we'll be getting French TGV's (or similar) on the route from S.W to N.W via England, so if a rail link is made between S.W and N.W, going through Wales is by far the quickest route AND will enable other communities a vital link to Bangor, Aberystwyth, Liverpool, Cardiff, Swansea and Newport (theoretically).

Think of it this way. A majority in Northern Ireland wish to remain in the UK - is it a legitimate policy of the Northern Irish Assembly to try to promote Northern Ireland's position within the Union? Undertake initiatives that emphasise the links between NI and England, Scotland and Wales as opposed to Eire? I think we could say no. In terms of transport, the investment is on improving links with the South - because thats where the economic interest lies.

*sigh* always politics and nationalism.... *yawn*

NI is a completely different case altogether, for one thing, they aren't joined at the hip to England, they are however joined to the sole other nation, Eire. Further, it is the duty of any government to promote its position in the interests of business, prestige, culture and economics. There is a fundamental difference between promoting your nation and claiming your nation is superior to any other. The way your post describes promotion, is almost as though anything even remotely connected to unify Wales will automatically mean separation from the U.K. This is just a narrow perception. IMO.

The South may indeed hold the most economical interest, but again, the government of Wales needs to cater for those in the North too. I believe that such a link will be highly beneficial in the long run and certainly offer much more that is currently foreseen.

These maps should illuminate the debate.

1. There isn't enough traffic flow between north and south Wales, or points in between, to justify massive investment.

2. Anyone who 'wants to do something for the North' should improve its access to markets in North West England, which are (a) closer, even if there was a motorway/HST between Bangor and Cardiff; and (b) bigger than South Wales!

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/pondle/TrafficFlowsinWales.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/pondle/Trainfrequency.jpg

That is illuminating pondle:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3848/illuminatinghn3.png

With the formation of two rail segments splitting from two existing lines, we could have a "circle" system servicing Wales. One length running much through England and another through mid and western Wales.

The Extension occurring after Llandovery, connecting Tregaron with Aberystwyth (one of the most important university towns), potential crossing near Borth. New extension at Porthmadog junction, running north through Caernarvon and Bethesda, connecting at Bangor. Aberystwyth line appears to have comparable activity to the Haverfordwest line. :)

Also, note the small print in the image: "Connecting links in England are for illustrative purposes only and do not represent actual frequencies on these lines" ;)

There used to be a passenger service between Swansea and Aberystwyth, but it ceased as long ago as 1930! The only surviving bit is the preserved tiny length of the Swansea Vale railway, which itself is scheduled to disappear.

There was also a Mid Wales Railway linking Aber, Llanidloes, Rhayader, Builth Wells, and Brecon with the present Valleys Line between Merthyr and Cardiff. This was axed by Beeching.

These rural routes will probably never re-open. It would cost a hell of a lot, and they wouldn't generate sufficient patronage.

There used to be a passenger service between Swansea and Aberystwyth, but it ceased as long ago as 1930!

But, respectfully that was almost 80 years ago! Times have significantly changed as has demand. I wonder what the population of Swansea or Cardiff was back then (let alone other towns and cities in Wales).

Not to mention the massive cutbacks on rail networks that happened decades ago. Surely, we should be actively sponsoring alternative forms of public transport to get people off the roads?

Yes it wont be cheap but, this government has certainly spent more on crap like the Millennium Dome, than infrastructure that promotes public transport.

These rural routes will probably never re-open. It would cost a hell of a lot, and they wouldn't generate sufficient patronage.

never say never with patronage, it depends on a few factors. I'll wait for that report, though. :)

6underground: Am I a little paranoid about Welsh nationalism? To some extent, yes. However, this is because of the rhetoric coming out of Plaid Cymru recently, which is all about emphasising the Welshness of Wales, rather than its links with the rest of the UK or the wider community. Now that they have a place in government, I fear we will see government used in this manner, albeit to a limitted extent with a unionist party as the major coalition partner.

The resources of government are finite and should be spent where they have greatest effect; whilst there is the potential that better links between North and South Wales will release some pent-up demand, whilst we remain fully integrated into the UK's economy, traffic here will always be significantly less than that between the urban parts of Wales and their neighbouring regions of England. Investment in these links, and within the urban areas of Wales will have a much greater return that will benefit far more people in Wales.

You talk about needing to spend to "support those outside the South" (or I guess the urban North East). And to an extent you are right. But a trainline through rural mid-Wales will cost about as much as building a line between Swansea and Cardiff, say. It will, however, be used by far fewer people. Hence the cost per person will be much higher. Its the same with rural schools. Having schools in every village means we end up spending £30,000 per pupil in some rural villages, but only £3000 in inner city Cardiff. This is also patently unfair, and extending this into other areas (e.g. transport) extends the unfairness.

If well-costed plans that represent value for money can be found, I'm all for it. But if its another "Cardiff-Valley" air link, then it represents nothing but politicking and waste, with little real benefit for the Welsh people.

You talk about needing to spend to "support those outside the South" (or I guess the urban North East). And to an extent you are right. But a trainline through rural mid-Wales will cost about as much as building a line between Swansea and Cardiff, say. It will, however, be used by far fewer people. Hence the cost per person will be much higher. Its the same with rural schools. Having schools in every village means we end up spending £30,000 per pupil in some rural villages, but only £3000 in inner city Cardiff. This is also patently unfair, and extending this into other areas (e.g. transport) extends the unfairness.

The way you write your opinion here about two theoretical rail segments, is as though it's a definitive statement that cannot be incorrect. How can you be 100% certain about a theoretical circle line (which i suppose is what the report will probably say) which has yet to be built?

We can project, but just like communism, you cannot tell if it works or not unless it's put into practice. For instance, wouldn't it seem plausible that commuters from Aberystwyth who wished to depart at Bristol, prefer to take a south bound train through Swansea and Newport, rather than travel to Shrewsbury and then southbound? (longer)

Distance and time is one factor, the price of tickets is also another.

Am I a little paranoid about Welsh nationalism? To some extent, yes. However, this is because of the rhetoric coming out of Plaid Cymru recently, which is all about emphasising the Welshness of Wales, rather than its links with the rest of the UK or the wider community. Now that they have a place in government, I fear we will see government used in this manner, albeit to a limitted extent with a unionist party as the major coalition partner.

I understand and sympathise with your fears about nationalism, we all have witnessed "nationalism" in Germany or its effects but, likewise 'nation-building' itself isn't inherently evil, it depends upon the ambitions and hidden agenda(s) behind those plans, that determine their real nature.

I do agree with some of their ideas, especially those that concern culture and a strengthening of national identity but, that doesn't mean in anyway shape or form that i support discrimination against the English people, or the complete independence of Wales from the rest of the U.K (but would certainly support an inner-commonwealth).

Plaid doesn't really have the political weight to dictate that much anyway,but remember that at least some majority of people have voted them into power to begin with so some ideologies are bound to be compromised upon.

:)

I think some people are taking the recent announcement WAY out of context. The WAG has announced that it will upgrade the trains between north-south to include business class cabins, an improved catering service and slightly higher frequencies! For goodness sake there was NO announcement regarding a brand new TGV service costing a few billion or something!

Regarding the roads, the WAG in 2006 announced an investment of 200m to improve the A55 bottleneck between Flintshire and Ellesmere Port which will speed up journeys between N.Wales and Merseyside and at parts consist of a 7-lane dual carriageway!!! The news regarding the A470 'improvements' is just to undertake some resurfacing work north of Brecon and modify some existing junctions! There was NO announcement of a brand spanking new dual carriageway to connect north-south, so some people really need to read the report before launching paranoid rants about Plaid etc etc Sorry if that comes across a bit strong but its getting really annoying to see every Wales thread decend into chaos and intra-Wales arguments all the time! lol

rich_1: It is not the amount of money that is the concern here; it is whether ANY amount of money can be more wisely spent on altnernative projects. If this was backed up with some research showing economic benefits from these small improvements (large or small), I would back them. But given it's rhetoric is mainly about uniting the nation, linking Wales, which seems a political project, I am dubious, whether it be £1 million, £10 million, £100 million or £1 billion.

In the context of western Europe, Wales is still a relatively poor country, and given our position within the union we are never going to be "favoured" in terms of spending. Particularly with tighter spending reviews going ahead, we should be focusing on where we get more bang for our buck. Okay, I am not 100% certain that this would not be north-south links, but I believe this to be the case given the economic geography of Wales and its neighbouring regions of England.

It is the amateurish and political way that these kind of policies are made in Wales that bothers me; I like to see some facts supporting the assertion that "North-South" links will be a big boost to the economy, when at first sight it seems they won't.

I understand and sympathise with your fears about nationalism, we all have witnessed "nationalism" in Germany or its effects but, likewise 'nation-building' itself isn't inherently evil, it depends upon the ambitions and hidden agenda(s) behind those plans, that determine their real nature.

Therein lies the problem. A nation is any group of people that have things in common. Any attempt to artificially create one is clearly wrong. Support people - don't force them to behave a certain way just so they can be part of an artificial nation of your own creating.

These maps should illuminate the debate.

1. There isn't enough traffic flow between north and south Wales, or points in between, to justify massive investment.


http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/pondle/TrafficFlowsinWales.jpg


The problem with this map is that it's a bit of a chicken and the egg sort of situation.

This map shows that traffic flow is greatest in areas where they're already major roads - along the M4 in South Wales and along the A55 in North Wales for example.

However, is the traffic flow greater there because that demand has always been there and the major roads were built to accomodate it, or is the traffic flow greater there because there are major roads running across the area so everyone uses them rather than the smaller country roads?

When I first drove to Bangor Uni (2 years ago) in the directions the University gave to everyone driving they said specifically that, unless you're local (i.e. already living in North West Wales) they recommend that everyone goes via the M6 and then A55 to get to Bangor even if you're coming from Cardiff.

So, how many people actually do travel between north and south wales, but to do it they're going via the A55 -> M6 -> M5 -> M4?

And as for train lines - I would love them to reopen some of the West Wales lines. However, the one that I'd do would be from Carmarthan to Aber via Lampeter (another University Town). It'll cut across a large area which is a bit of a public transport blackspot (i used to get the bus from Lampeter to Carmarthan and it took an hour and a half - compared to just 20mins in a car going directly there).

In Scotland they're reopening rural lines after 40 years or so, and now that the Welsh Assembly has more power, it should be looking doing the same.

As for the missing northern raillink to Caernarfon. Don't forget that that line is being rebuilt as a tourist steam train line that'll run from Bleanau Ffestinog to Caernarfon via Porthmadog. It'll be interesting to see when this opens if it does become a bit of a 'commuter' service. And a mainline spur from Bangor to Caernarfon really shouldn't be that too hard to do - most of the old route is still available cos it's used as a cycle track now.

Therein lies the problem. A nation is any group of people that have things in common. Any attempt to artificially create one is clearly wrong. Support people - don't force them to behave a certain way just so they can be part of an artificial nation of your own creating.

Wales and the Welsh have always existed, as have moves and people who wished/wish for Wales to become a republic. At the same time, there (and are) were those who wish(ed) to remain part of the U.K. There are regions much more culturally attuned to Welsh culture than others, so there isn't an 'artificial nation' as you speak but a re-shifting of the dynamic of Wales by the Welsh themselves, within Wales. The only difference now, is that instead of only 'unionists' holding all the keys in Wales, much more integration of different ideologies can exist,today. There is nothing artificial about the parties in power who have been democratically elected by the citizens of Wales.

This has occurred and been occurring for centuries, there are always going to be people who disagree with the route a nation is progressing (socially, culturally, economically, lawfully etc) and to advocate that just because we are part of the U.K, means we can not change that dynamic, is rather shortsighted.

You're right it's chicken and egg. New roads should reduce congestion for the existing users but nearly always cause traffic to increase, because a route suddenly becomes feasible.

The M25 is the perfect example - it was built to help traffic flow around/avoid London and they predicted traffic flows based on that. But the estimates were well out because suddenly it became possible to live in Surrey and commute to work in Essex for example. So the drivers it was built for are probably no better off in the end.

The problem with this map is that it's a bit of a chicken and the egg sort of situation.

This map shows that traffic flow is greatest in areas where they're already major roads - along the M4 in South Wales and along the A55 in North Wales for example.

However, is the traffic flow greater there because that demand has always been there and the major roads were built to accomodate it, or is the traffic flow greater there because there are major roads running across the area so everyone uses them rather than the smaller country roads?

Most major roads were built on a 'predict and provide' basis. It's true that traffic flow reflects the location of the major corridors, but the major corridors also reflect the location of population and economic activity.

It's obvious that there will be more traffic between, say, Swansea and Cardiff compared to, say, Aberdare and Cardiff, or Newtown and Carmarthen, because of the relative size of the points of origin and points of destination.

When I first drove to Bangor Uni (2 years ago) in the directions the University gave to everyone driving they said specifically that, unless you're local (i.e. already living in North West Wales) they recommend that everyone goes via the M6 and then A55 to get to Bangor even if you're coming from Cardiff.

So, how many people actually do travel between north and south wales, but to do it they're going via the A55 -> M6 -> M5 -> M4?

Hmmm, not sure, but I doubt it would be very many. The point is, why would you need to travel this route? There will be a few leisure & tourist journeys, but the main demand for regular travel between north and south Wales is essentially restricted to AMs, civil servants and other public sector types - a fairly small market.

If you are a business based in North Wales, trading beyond your immediate vicinity, it's more likely that most of your suppliers or customers will be in NW England than in South Wales. If you want a day out shopping or access to an airport, then Manchester or Liverpool are closer than Cardiff. There has been a lot of recent furore about making neurosurgery patients from North Wales travel to the south rather than hospitals in Merseyside. So you see, all the main social and economic reasons for travel point to east-west journeys, not north-south.

And as for train lines - I would love them to reopen some of the West Wales lines. However, the one that I'd do would be from Carmarthan to Aber via Lampeter (another University Town). It'll cut across a large area which is a bit of a public transport blackspot (i used to get the bus from Lampeter to Carmarthan and it took an hour and a half - compared to just 20mins in a car going directly there).

In Scotland they're reopening rural lines after 40 years or so, and now that the Welsh Assembly has more power, it should be looking doing the same.

What would it cost? How much patronage could be expected? I suspect you'd incur an enormous upfront investment and ongoing subsidy to have empty trains rattling back and forth between deserted stations. Not a good use of taxpayers' money.

I think folks like 6underground are living in a bit of a fantasy world if they think that there is ever going to be sufficient demand for a Swansea-Aberystwyth rail link in the 21st century! :lol: Remember, First Great Western is reducing the frequency of services between Cardiff and Swansea, a vitally important commuter route!

I think folks like 6underground are living in a bit of a fantasy world if they think that there is ever going to be sufficient demand for a Swansea-Aberystwyth rail link in the 21st century! Remember, First Great Western is reducing the frequency of services between Cardiff and Swansea, a vitally important commuter route!

LOL, somehow I don't think that's due to demand,but rather the failings of Great Western as a company. I've never seen a "quiet" train from Cardiff to Swansea, in fact the amount of times i've seen people standing in carriages, far outweighs any 'fantasy' you think i have ;)

and I commute alot by rail, btw.

You're right it's chicken and egg. New roads should reduce congestion for the existing users but nearly always cause traffic to increase, because a route suddenly becomes feasible.

The M25 is the perfect example - it was built to help traffic flow around/avoid London and they predicted traffic flows based on that. But the estimates were well out because suddenly it became possible to live in Surrey and commute to work in Essex for example. So the drivers it was built for are probably no better off in the end.

Yeah but they built the M25 with too many junctions, so it is used by local traffic as well as long distance traffic, never the original intention. And it was only part of a much grander scheme for 3 ringways around London - the other two were never built, so the M25 has had to absorb all the traffic that would have used those other motorways.

LOL, somehow I don't think that's due to demand,but rather the failings of Great Western as a company. I've never seen a "quiet" train from Cardiff to Swansea, in fact the amount of times i've seen people standing in carriages, far outweighs any 'fantasy' you think i have ;)

and I commute alot by rail, btw.

I agree with you - but my point is you can't expect a new railway on a very quiet route when a relatively busy route is being cut! :cheers:

but my point is you can't expect a new railway on a very quiet route when a relatively busy route is being cut!

Perhaps not this second with Great Western (perhaps other companies may be more inclined to take over such services). But I'm glad you agree. :booze:

I suppose that this might be a good example of a project where there might be a greater benefit to North Wales than a North-South link? I must admit that I had never heard of it before reading this article.

Don't get excited though - like most (non London) public transport projects it looks like it ain't gonna happen anyway!


http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_headline=wag-to-be-urged-to-rethink-railway-link-delay%26metho d=full%26objectid=19904996%26siteid=50082-name_page.html

I suppose that this might be a good example of a project where there might be a greater benefit to North Wales than a North-South link? I must admit that I had never heard of it before reading this article.

Don't get excited though - like most (non London) public transport projects it looks like it ain't gonna happen anyway!


http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_headline=wag-to-be-urged-to-rethink-railway-link-delay%26metho d=full%26objectid=19904996%26siteid=50082-name_page.html

Sorry, that link doesn't appear to be working. Could you summarise?
Ta. :cheers:

This is the story (below)... yes it sounds like this kind of project would do more to connect people in north-east Wales to jobs and amenities than any silly north-south link.

The WAG's own economic development strategy, Wales A Vibrant Economy, highlighted the critical importance of ability of individuals and businesses in NE Wales to exploit the huge market and employment opportunities in Cheshire, Manchester, Merseyside and the north west of England, an area with more than 20 times the population of north east Wales itself.

WAG to be urged to rethink railway link delay

Oct 6 2007

by Rhodri Clark, Western Mail

THE Welsh Assembly Government is to be asked to reconsider its decision to postpone a rail scheme that could bring a five-fold increase in passengers.

A study by consultants last year found that electrifying the railway from Wrexham to Bidston, near Birkenhead, would bring major benefits because the electric trains would be allowed into Liverpool’s underground stations.

Diesel trains are banned from the tunnels under the River Mersey and the city because of lack of ventilation and fire risk.

Passengers from Wrexham, Buckley, Hawarden and Shotton are forced to change trains at Bidston, so many opt instead to drive to a park-and-ride station on the Chester-Liverpool line.

Their cars add to the heavy traffic on the A494, which the WAG plans to widen to seven lanes north of Ewloe. But it has put the railway electrification back to the medium term, 2014-18, or the long term, from 2019.

The move has surprised Merseytravel, the WAG’s partner in the project, which had pencilled in the project for 2011. Wrexham AM Lesley Griffiths has met Merseytravel’s chief executive, Neil Scales, to discuss the WAG’s delay to a project that would be jointly funded by Wales and England.

She said, “Mr Scales assured me that Merseytravel remains 100% committed to this project. The case for the scheme going ahead and the potential viability of the line are not in question.

“The 2014 date was a disappointment, but I believe that with political pressure from both sides of the border, this scheme can be made a priority again.”

A WAG spokeswoman said WAG and Merseytravel had jointly commissioned a feasibility study on full or part electrification of the Wrexham-Bidston line.

Try this Babaloo:

The Article (http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_headline=wag-to-be-urged-to-rethink-railway-link-delay%26method=full%26objectid=19904996%26siteid=50082-name_page.html)

Thanks guys. Is it possible to find out why the WAG knocked this one back?

Just spent the intervening time on the WAG website. No joy.

I wonder if WAG would object if Merseyrail offered to pay for the electrification of the line. I'm still struggling to understand the rationale for putting this on the backburner - it seems to indicate just how unaware Cardiff is of socio-economic realities in the Wrexham-Deeside-Merseyside area.

There is something slightly odd about an Assembly that wastes money on an airlink (Cardiff - Valley) because of symbolic reasons and then chooses to sideline a proposal that would provide real economic benefits to the populations of Wrexham and Flintshire. :nuts:

Ok, I admit that is a problem with the WAG. It does have an attitude that all transport projects MUST link up to Cardiff or else it's not worth doing them.

That's probably why they've put this on the back-burner. Why waste money on getting Wrexham a better link to one of the largest cities in England when there's still a village in deepest darkest Snowdonia that doesn't have a direct link to Cardiff yet?

How much would this actually cost?

Would Mersey Rail be prepared to invest in extra carriages/trains to cope with the five fold increase in passengers?

How much would this actually cost?

Would Mersey Rail be prepared to invest in extra carriages/trains to cope with the five fold increase in passengers?

£59m @ 2006 prices according to this source

(From the "Daily Post" 14th of March 2006)
The Borderlines Rail Study urged the Welsh Assembly and Department of Transport to radically upgrade the Wrexham to Bidston route, including its extension to Liverpool. The report claimed such a move would persuade up to 800,000 commuters to leave their cars at home and boost the economies of Wrexham, Deeside and Flintshire.

The study, carried out by Faber Maunsell and Elan Public Transport Consultants, concluded a £59m scheme to electrify the entire route, and increase the number of trains to two an hour, would be "economically viable".
It would result in the number of journeys on the line jumping from 200,000 a year to more than a million by 2020.

Cash raised would increase from £420,000 a year to £2.2m. The findings were welcomed by Wrexham MP Ian Lucas. He said: "This is a hugely important report for both Wrexham and North East Wales. There need to be better commuter links to the north of Wrexham and this can be supplied by a half-hourly service."

The study was carried out on behalf of local authorities in North Wales, Merseytravel, the Welsh Development Agency and Cheshire County Council. It examined five options for electrifying different sections of track between TWrexham, Shotton, Deeside, Woodchurch and Liverpool. It concluded that the "best value for money" option was to electrify the route between Liverpool, which is currently part of the Merseytravel network, and Woodchurch but keep a slower diesel service between Woodchurch and Wrexham. Two new stations at Woodchurch and Deeside would be built. But the report said electrifying the entire line was still viable and would boost the economy of North East Wales. It concluded: "Any enhancement of the Borderlines Line must consider the doubling of the current hourly service frequency as a minimum requirement. Given this requirement, electrification of all, or part, of the route produces an economically viable scheme. In purely transport terms the strongest case is for electrification to Woodchurch, although the wider economic and development benefits would be greater if electrification extended into Wales."

It is estimated by 2020 there will be 35,000 new jobs and 2,800 new homes in the area served by the Wrexham to Bidston railway.

------------------------------

Sorry, forgot the 2nd question. There is quite a bit of demand for electrification south of Bidston. I could see Merseytravel trying to raise money from the English government (and all available sources) to take it as far as it can but I can anticipate a reluctance to finance the section of the line from say Shotton to Wrexham if the WAG is not prepared to make a financial contribution. Needless to say this will not go down well in Wrexham and Flintshire and will contribute to perceptions in NE Wales that Cardiff has got its eye off the ball (to understate it) when it comes to meeting the long term economic needs of this part of the country.

Cheers for the info.

£59m, sadly I can see one reason why the WAG decided to do nothing - money. The most they've spent on the railways recently is £30m on the Ebbw Vale - Newport line reinstatement. This is despite the fact that we are constantly being told by them not to use cars.

Cheers for the info.

£59m, sadly I can see one reason why the WAG decided to do nothing - money. The most they've spent on the railways recently is £30m on the Ebbw Vale - Newport line reinstatement. This is despite the fact that we are constantly being told by them not to use cars.

Yes - the Ebbw Vale-Newport line that is mysteriously being re-routed to Cardiff! *sigh*

really? I'd of thought it would have to go through newport to join the main line :?

The Ebbw Vale line joins up just to the west of Newport - they are reinstalling the 'turn' to go West to Cardiff before a section of track taking it east towards Newport.

The Ebbw Vale line joins up just to the west of Newport - they are reinstalling the 'turn' to go West to Cardiff before a section of track taking it east towards Newport.
Umm, no.
:ohno:
It joins the mainline west of the station, but it's well within Newport.:bash:

I meant to the west of "Newport Station"... so if it wanted to link to Newport they would need a link that allowed trains to turn East. For some reason, this is more costly than the one that turns West and that will be installed first, allowing trains access to Cardiff. It doesn't matter where the lines join per se. Its what type of junction with the mainline that determines which city Ebbw Vale can be linked with. It could join right outside Newport station, just to the west, but if it still had a west-wards junction, those trains would be Cardiff-bound.

I think the reasons for prioritising Cardiff were cost; and to improve access to employment in the Ebbw Valley. Employment opportunities accessable from Cardiff Central are considerably greater than from Newport - whilst the city has lots of new office space is has largely been on the outskirts and accessable by car only.

Well actually, both links currently exist, and have done for a very long time. The current (lame) excuse is to do with signalling, which I'm not buying at all.

I meant to the west of "Newport Station"... so if it wanted to link to Newport they would need a link that allowed trains to turn East. For some reason, this is more costly than the one that turns West and that will be installed first, allowing trains access to Cardiff. It doesn't matter where the lines join per se. Its what type of junction with the mainline that determines which city Ebbw Vale can be linked with.
Jim is right - there was always been a triangular junction there. Historically of course, all trains from the Monmouthshire western valley have terminated in Newport High St, with the westward part of the junction being used for freight movements.

I think the reasons for prioritising Cardiff were cost; and to improve access to employment in the Ebbw Valley. Employment opportunities accessable from Cardiff Central are considerably greater than from Newport - whilst the city has lots of new office space is has largely been on the outskirts and accessable by car only.
Maybe so, but the whole point in re-instating the line was to compensate for steel job losses in Ebbw Vale and Newport. A train from Ebbw Vale<->Cardiff does absolutely nothing for job prospects of Newport, despite Newport City Council paying vast sums of money for it. Typical WAG

"Maybe so, but the whole point in re-instating the line was to compensate for steel job losses in Ebbw Vale and Newport. A train from Ebbw Vale<->Cardiff does absolutely nothing for job prospects of Newport, despite Newport City Council paying vast sums of money for it. Typical WAG"

Oh come on, like you can see commuter flows from Newport city centre to Ebbw Vale town centre? First, the amount of employment created up in Blaenau Gwent will be pretty low, and secondly, what exists will likely be "out of town" and the locals will be wanting it. Finally, Newport has pretty good employment and unemployment rates despite job losses at Corus. The new office developments are testement to that. So, if the Cardiff link is better for job seekers in the Ebbw Valley, I think their interests should be prioritised - given they are currently much more isolated, and much more likely to be unemployed than Newportonians.

Oh come on, like you can see commuter flows from Newport city centre to Ebbw Vale town centre?

I didn't say it! I was paraphrasing the so-called Five Counties Regeneration Framework document, which kick-started the whole process!

So, if the Cardiff link is better for job seekers in the Ebbw Valley, I think their interests should be prioritised - given they are currently much more isolated, and much more likely to be unemployed than Newportonians.
Maybe, but Newport council tax payers are paying for a service that does 90% of them no benefit (except the small number in Rogerstone who want to go west).

Maybe, but Newport council tax payers are paying for a service that does 90% of them no benefit (except the small number in Rogerstone who want to go west).
That's an excellent point - I hadn't thought of that......:ohno:

I thought this was being funded by the WAG, however, in the same way that it funds major transport projects like the recently completed Rhondda Fach relief road, and the soon to be commencing Church Village bypass (both in RCT incidentally). Where are the financing documents for this project? I am SURE i have seen claims that this is WAG funded (from their central transport capital budget) rather than from the local authority budgets.

From what I've read, there is a European grant for some of the cost, and the WAG offers a grant to the "partner" local authorities, who then spend the money. Whether the grant = the cost is the £64,000 question!

People from the Ebbw Valley want to travel to Newport, it's within Newport's commuter belt and county, I know because I've heard what a few people from that area say they are disappointed at not being able to go to Newport by train. Don't forget the line is not just going to serve Ebbw Vale, but Risca and Cross Keys which are just outside the Newport city boundary and effective suburbs, and Rogerstone in Newport. I don't understand your point about unemployment, Cardiff doesn't have high unemployment either. The idea of the line is to benefit both the valley and Newport itself. There's plenty of office development starting to happen in Newport city centre, look at my pictures from George St. for example.

As for the out of town areas around the old LG factory, I think a new station or 2 between Newport and Cardiff would be a good idea

I totally agree about some new stations between Newport and Cardiff. The main line between the two is wasted and there could easily be stations built at St Mellons and Newport Road and possibly a Newport suburb too!

Within Cardiff there are "ambitions" for extra stations - at Rumney and St Mellons. The latter was proposed to be park and ride too - but whether this has been shelved following the NIMBYs and budget problems halting the St Mellons - Wentloog link road, is another matter.

There is a station planned for the mainline south of Celtic Lakes.

Don't think this deserves a thread in its own right and this seems the best place to mention it.

To quote the BBC "Eurostar is to begin selling through fares from 68 UK towns and cities to Paris and other European destinations".

But guess what none of these cities are in Wales or even the West Country, http://www.eurostar.com/pdf/interlining/journey_time_price.pdf

Another victory for integrated transport! :bash:

Thats very strange, but it does appear to be a 'southern thing'. There are no listed connections to big markets at Plymouth, Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol, Reading, Portsmouth, Southampton or Brighton. Maybe it's some kind of administratative debacle? or a fact that southern cities go to thr 'wrong' London station? But your right, why not advertise these things properly. You blatently can get from Cardiff to Paris on the train relatively easily, so you should be able to buy a ticket for it.

Privatising the railways was the biggest mistake this country has made in my lifetime I think. (apart from Iraq maybe!?)

James, you are entirely right! The only problem is with the new terminus in St Pancras, how on earth do you get there from Paddington? Crossrail ain't gonna help!

Many moons ago there was a plan to run Eurostar trains direct from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester &c. But of course this came to nothing. And of course the Great Western Line isn't electrified either! Renationalise it!

Nationalisation is not the solution to the rail problems; it would be monumentously expensive (we cannot just "grab it" like some banana republic would, wrecking investor confidence in the security of their assets and discouraging investment in other strategic sectors) and it would add to existing problems of complexity and poor performance with the inefficiency that comes with the lack of the profit motive. Nationalisation is not the answer; the answer is better regulation and efforts to simplify the system of pricing.

It should be possible to buy a through ticket to Cardiff from Paris, just it will not be possible to travel directly on the same train given the lack of linkage between Paddington and St Pancras. Linking to St Pancras made far more sense in terms of where people are likely to want to travel; linking to multiple London stations would not be cost effective. We can buy tickets cross-network from places like Pontypridd to Aberdeen Central. Its not privatisation that would prevent us doing this for Eurostar; it might be something to do with the ownership of Eurostar which is a transnational company.

As a nation we should strive to be the best. I agree that it would be a daunting process, especially with our old network of tracks, stations and low bridges etc, but it strikes me that across the continent nationalised rail networks are far superior to ours, so there must be benefits in this form of ownership. Certainly I'd like to see bus services nationalised too, or at least operated by a company entirely owned by local authorities a la Cardiff Bus-A company in which I take great pride.

In general I'd really like to see a more co-ordinated approach to transport and that seems a fundementally difficult thing to achieve with so many companies pulling in different directions.

"but it strikes me that across the continent nationalised rail networks are far superior to ours, so there must be benefits in this form of ownership"

You can't make this argument. Nationalisation is not the only thing that differs across countries in terms of rail transport. Firstly, and probably primarily, you have the issue of the amount of subsidy these services receive from the state for both operating costs and in terms of capital costs. You need a proper study to disentangle the effects of these. Don't forget that reliability was worse under the latter days of British rail than it was under the privatised system prior to the "safety overkill" we've had since the Hatfield crashes back in 01. This shows that nationalisation, per se, is not the variable of interest but subsidy levels and investment in fixed capital. A case has to be made about whether we should be investing more in our rail network in terms of new high speed lines, replacement of tracks etc. However all this costs money and in many European countries this is just spent without proper consideration of "hey, could this money be spent better elsewhere?" (including, could taxes be lower, as they are in the UK relative to 'old EU' averages). Plus don't forget costs would likely be even higher in the UK due to a planning system that makes strategic projects time consuming and bureaucratically costly, due to high land prices, and a tight labour market pushing up wages in the construction sector.

I know I bang on about "clear thinking" but it really is important; you can't compare apples and oranges and say its the orange skin that makes oranges taste different to apples. You need to look inside the orange. Likewise you can't say "nationalisation must be the reason for better systems in France or Germany", when many other variables differ too.

Thats very strange, but it does appear to be a 'southern thing'. There are no listed connections to big markets at Plymouth, Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol, Reading, Portsmouth, Southampton or Brighton. Maybe it's some kind of administratative debacle? or a fact that southern cities go to thr 'wrong' London station? But your right, why not advertise these things properly. You blatently can get from Cardiff to Paris on the train relatively easily, so you should be able to buy a ticket for it.

Privatising the railways was the biggest mistake this country has made in my lifetime I think. (apart from Iraq maybe!?)

And Newport. Maybe they think there's only farms west of London. Why did they move the terminal to a station north of the river when the Channel Tunnel is to the south?

You can't make this argument. Nationalisation is not the only thing that differs across countries in terms of rail transport. Firstly, and probably primarily, you have the issue of the amount of subsidy these services receive from the state for both operating costs and in terms of capital costs.
Yes, and in reality the government subsidy is more now than before privatisation. There really is a fundamental problem here - if you want private money for investment, these companies expect a return on that investment - i.e. taking money out of the system. If all the operating companies were not-for-profit then no money would be taken out, but perhaps less would be invested. If we can trust the government to invest large sums of money then it should be in their hands. Given that they are doing that already, I think the case has been made?

Argh... again you can't just compare pre/post period as things would have changed even if we'd kept British Rail. For instance you often hear people in London claim that the Congestion Charge is not working because whilst traffic was initially 20% below pre-charge levels its now only 5% below. But the correct counterfactual for today is not what it was before the charge, but what it would be without the charge with today's conditions. Whilst that is unobservable you can look at areas with similar characteristics and see what has happened to their traffic. So likewise, you need to think what services would have been like with British Rail with current levels of subsidy; and I'm saying you can't look to France and Germany as they have even more subsidy than we have. In fact it's pretty hard to find a counterfactual.

Nationalisation, if anything, tends to INCREASE costs. Nationalised industries are typically significantly more unionised and militant; look at tube drivers who get paid circa £35k just for pushing start and stop! The government funds much of the investment in the rail service but it is good and proper that there is competition in the provision of services and the actual enactment of the investment. Competition acts to drive out inefficiency and drive costs down. It doesn't work in rail as good as it does elsewhere due to the nature of the licences (almost geographic monopolies) but hence we have regulation. The profit motive itself is still enough to drive down costs. You are right to the extent that the private sector seeks profit and this is not 'reinvested' in the rail network. But a) efficiency is normally greater so it doesnt necessarily mean higher prices; and b) government nationalised industries are also mandated to seek a "commercial return" on their investment so that we're not misallocating capital to areas with poor return.

Its really not as simple as you people make out - if it were, economists would be the FIRST to suggest what you do. But we're not. And given the huge costs of buying out the private firms, its not worth taking a huge risk on a potential (and unlikely) improvement in efficiency as a nationalised industry.

I have to smile when I see that we actually have a shortage of Wales transport improvement topics to actually discuss here.

It's good to expand the posts as above (please note that I am not discouraging that), but doesn't it make you wonder (or despair!) why there are no home based transport improvements of merit to discuss on this forum?

Most of the schemes that we discuss appear to be wishlists emanating from our own armchairs, rather than firm commitments from government/planners/private developers/etc etc.

Maybe it's time for another WAG/Cardiff Council funded report detailing how we need to upgrade our transport infrastructure to maintain a competitive edge over our peers to meet the rapidly changing needs of an ever changing business world in this age of change..... and then we realise that a proposed station at St Mellons and an extra bus from Barry is all that's on the agenda.:D

I've been thinking about this whole transport argument and thought what if the whole Valley lines system could be electrified? That could really lift the city in the transport stakes and would be much more cost effective when compared to building a tramway along the same lines.

There has been discussion on the cardiffwalesmap forum about building trams, but surely we should be reaching out to the wider urban area rather than just in Cardiff. Buses and inter-Cardiff train stations would suffice and take so many cars off the road.

Electrification would deliver much faster and more frequent services and it could help regenerate the valleys and encourage more investment along these lines - not just inside Cardiff. But it wouldn't really help areas like East Cardiff or around Roath, Cyncoed which are without train lines, which could be a sticking point. Any thoughts?

At the risk of being chastised for re-opening a 5 year old thread, I was pleased to find that the A470 is undergoing improvement in the Coed-y-Brenin area north of Dolgellau, when I was driving south from Snowdonia last week. Having family relatives in the Cardiff, West-Wales, mid-Wales and Snowdonia areas, anything which allows me to visit them more easily is very much appreciated. So perhaps there was something in the OP's quoted press release.

What wasn't appreciated on the same break, was the very slow moving queue into Newtown. Why is it so difficult to get through traffic moving through this town? I remember seeing press reports that the new traffic lights at Tesco would cure the problems!

A feature I have noted is that on routes which travel through the national border from Wales to England, the Welsh part of the route is now frequently better (wider, newer surface, straighter etc.) than the continuation in England. (The A489 Newtown to Craven Arms road comes to mind - unless the section in Shropshire has been improved quite recently...)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20769091

Is this the last chance for Cardiff Airport or the start of a brighter future? I am of the view that without sustained investment in its surface access strategy that the airport is doomed to be a burden on the Welsh Government.

I don't know how feasible it would be, but I'd love a north-south railway through Wales, running from the North Wales Coast down through Aberystwyth, across west Wales and into Cardiff. When I had to take my MacBook to get fixed in the Apple Store in Cardiff I noticed how stupidly long the journey was, that needs changing.

I don't know how feasible it would be, but I'd love a north-south railway through Wales, running from the North Wales Coast down through Aberystwyth, across west Wales and into Cardiff. When I had to take my MacBook to get fixed in the Apple Store in Cardiff I noticed how stupidly long the journey was, that needs changing.

Totally agree and there should be a north to South Wales motorway, it's crazy that you have to go to the M6 to travel south. The A55 should also be a full motorway as the current road is critically over capacity and is holding north Wales back.

Why didn't you you go to the Apple shop in Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham if in mid?

Why didn't you you go to the Apple shop in Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham if in mid?

There were no appointments left in the Birmingham store, and I assumed that Cardiff was the next closest before Liverpool and Manchester. Although saying that, when I travelled back to Liverpool for the Christmas holidays a week ago it seemed much closer than Cardiff.