Where do people think the city will be in 5 years time. Currently there are estimates of 4bn-6bn worth of investments in the city.Where do people expect the city to be in comparison to other core cities? What will be the employment growth,population,up,down,the GVA?

Rising population. Strong inward migration. Growing strongly as a regional centre, with L1 storming ahead, LJLA growing well having broken at last the Manchester veto on longhaul, and a healthy level of private sector investment in commercial premises around the city centre. Some nice "feathers in the cap" of inward investment, in the financial and business services sectors, and in R&D and life-sciences. Possibly some bad news on the industrial front, either at Halewood or Ellesemere Port, but this will be compensated for by strong overall growth. The city and region will have turned the corner decisively in one of the most difficult and painful restructurings any British city has needed to undergo.

The only break is politics: the city region can become a wealthy one offering everyone a good quality and stanard of life. But, it won't...and can't...unless and until people in Liverpool (not just the city, some of the boroughs as well) understand that they can influence their own fate by who they vote for. If we continue to see such dismal second and third-rate local politicians and their disastrous senior officer appointments......well it means the city will not really take off as it now should do. Labour in Liverpool are poison, I'm afraid, and if they take power we will see a loss of investor confidence, more people unemployed, and people being poorer than they need to be. I'm really concerned that despite all the conditions for a period of strong growth now being in place, Liverpool's labour politicians (and the second rate placemen they trust to run the city and its agencies) will squander it.

I think political regeneration is now more important then physical regeneration for Liverpool. 21Cl should initiative a campaign to ensure that everyone knows what happens when you don't vote in local elections, or when you vote for a party or candidate who oppose growth and progress.

With the new office space being created I'd expect inward investment from office based industries. Liverpool always lagged behind in office development in the past and I think this contributed to the city's poor economic growth vis-a-vis other provincial cities. Speculative office development needs to keep being created into the future. If the companies of the future are going to move to Liverpool they will need accommodation ready for them.

Anyway, to answer the question I expect a lot of growth with the new developments coming on line. But the improvements to all areas of the city's offer must continue, on and on, into the future.

Firstly,the party politics out of the way.The Liverpool Labour group are probably less competent than the Lib-Dems and councillor Andersen is unelectable in my opinion. Liverpool is currently the poorest city in England and on a number of other indices ranks bottom or near bottom in comparison with other core cities,job ratio,GVA,skills and health. Most of the employment increase in the last 10 years has been service sector,low pay,low skilled.In the last 5 years the public sector has outstrppped private sector,mainly jobs in education and health. This trend is reversed in other core cities where the biggest increases have been in retail and finance.Since the 2001 census Merseyside and Liverpool have seen an estimated drop in population,all other urban areas have seen rises. Predicted employment growth for Greater Merseyside to 2014,15,000-20,000,Greater Manchester as a comparison,47,000,Lancashire with a smaller population is expected to have similar growth to Greater Merseyside. Greater Merseyside population is expected to rise by 0.4% by 2014,the lowest of any urban area. So in the short to medium term Liverpool is unlikely to close the employment/poverty gap with the other core cities. I see this a failure by the elected representatives of this city,MP's and councillors of all parties. The political culture in this city has to change.I agree with the criticisms of Councillor Andersen but the real culprits here are the local MP's who seem to be encouraging the adverserial approach to the ruling party in the city.There has to be a concerted effort between the politicians of all parties,Westminster and local,not jut in the city but the city region to accelerate the city's regeneration.

Rising population. Strong inward migration. I think political regeneration is now more important then physical regeneration for Liverpool. 21Cl should initiative a campaign to ensure that everyone knows what happens when you don't vote in local elections, or when you vote for a party or candidate who oppose growth and progress.

Like he said ^^

The political culture in this city has to change.I agree with the criticisms of Councillor Andersen but the real culprits here are the local MP's who seem to be encouraging the adverserial approach to the ruling party in the city.There has to be a concerted effort between the politicians of all parties,Westminster and local,not jut in the city but the city region to accelerate the city's regeneration.


And him too!^^

I would not be too critical of current leadership, as it has been a difficult time with mistakes made. Best of a bad bunch.

The next phase is to stop haemorrhaging money: L1, the Arena, the CLF and new footy stadia should see to that. So we need local people (with 'local pride') to continue to invest in our own city to maintain the progress other firms have started. A kind of 'Buy British' only Scouse style.

Unfortunately, national companies are not going to break down are door just because we have arrived in the 21st Century. That will take several years of steady improvement and contact building.

Only then will we get the leadership an inward investment we deserve.

The political culture in this city has to change..

There is something seriously wrong here. Liverpool is performing badly in many ways even after you take account of unfair distribution from central government (won't go into those things here.)

There is something horribly wrong with the city's political culture. Totally fragmented, adverserial; very different to what we see in the other core cities. The MPs are absolutely fucking useless and ought to be ashamed of themselves.

They are all to blame, every councillor and every MP, regardless of their colours. They are working for their own desires and allegiances, and not working together for LIVERPOOL.

I'd like to think that there will be some improvement in the indicies you mention once the current host of developments come online though. Lots of new office, retail, leisure, conference development. It has to make a difference. But yeah, places like Manc get their strength from their togetherness. Helped by them all having the same colours. I have no idea how this can changes in Liverpool though; there is something smelly and stagnant about the political culture, amongst all of its members.

The city needs a saviour. A strong and charismatic leader who can unite everybody, regardless of their colours, under one banner. The Liverpool banner. Then maybe a basis could even be set for proper working with the other authorities and the building of a city region.

A campaign for an elected mayor of Greater Liverpool?

its something I have never really understood, but something is a foot, notice in the press about improving rail infa structure and times to Manchester, and the fact that Peels have announced in the past the difficulties working with the council, compared with Wirral (and other areas) perhaps Peels have got fed up and decided to try and improve rail frieght and passenger services. The councilors seem to fight each other, *lol* even in there own parties.!
everything seems to be greeted with one form of opposition or another, even the very people themselfs even they come out with things like "you cant do that your breaking up the community", everyone sadly seems in for what they personally can get out of it, instead of looking at the bigger picture, to improve and go forward, every twist and turn theres some delay, argument opposition, yeah, your designs wonderfull, now take it away and just drop a few levels, or were not happy with this, it all costs prospetive companys money, so, if I was a company wishing to build in Liverpool, I would certainly think twice, either that or have a plan a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, ! I mean look at the Lime street fiasco! nearly every building submitted seems to have been changed in some way, is that a good way to encourage investment?
kat:ohno: :ohno:

Unfortunately I don't share most of you guy's optimism.

In my mind the regeneration of this city has happened the wrong way round entirely. I support every little success and gain, don't get me wrong....but I firmly believe there has been a catastrophic mistake made with the direction the powers that be have taken.


There was a fascinating program on Liverpool with Lloyd Grossman recently where a guy from Toxteth was remarking that all these posh new apartments and offices are all well and good, but how is the wealth going to spread out???

Manchester, Glasgow and London have all done regeneration the right way planting major works and regeneration schemes in the HEART of the deprived areas....especially London with the east end and the Olympic Village they're building there. The PEOPLE stand to benefit with the fascilities which will last for decades and will bring wealth and inward investment into a deprived area.

Where has this happened here!??? Albert, Kings and Princes Dock where a load of footballers and wealthy people already live? The graces site which was already a worldwide attraction and world class iconic waterfront anyway? The city centre which was already booming with some of the best apartments, nightlife, clubs, bars, resturants, galeries, and culture in Europe???

We've done the complete opposite here in Liverpool to the percieved wisdom on regeneration. While Toxteth, Anfield, Edge Lane, parts of south Liverpool, Everton, Birkenhead & Seacombe, etc....have recieved fuck all from the millions plowed into Merseyside, the city centre, which didn't need special attention has had effort, time and money plowed into it.

Then in an interview on this program I hear the Liverpool Vision (or whatever quango it is) guy say "We'll do up the city centre first THEN form ANOTHER company to sort out the rest".

That's their answer to everything in this city: "Oh we'll form another company". ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! The deprived areas should have been sorted out first. The strategy should have been to put offices, companies and new apartments and buildings there, "gentrifying" those areas in the same way that parts of Manchester were and how areas like Harlem in NY are being sorted out (and are now desirable areas to live after decades of poverty).

It should have been a system in place where people were told "Ok if you want to come and take our PFI money, our EU Objective One funds, our cultural grants you can....when you build, here, here and here. This area needs regenerating so extra planning consent and funds may be available"....and it should have been companies steered towards Toxteth and the areas of deprivation.

....and yet again ANOTHER unelected "company" to siphon off money which should go to the benefit of the people will be formed. How many agencies and quangos does this city need FFS!?

Discusting.


English Heritage should have been given short thrift by LCC dont get me wrong, but people on here are seriously deluded as well. Theres places in Liverpool falling apart and all people can bang on about is a few storeys being lobbed off some riduclous tower (what is it with you guys and your obsession with towers and their height!? lol).

The Stop the Rot campaign seems to be going nowhere as all sides squablle. The irish centre....falling apart, some of the fine edwardian and victorian buildings we have....derelict and falling apart.

Why aren't EH being reported for their failings?


Ecconomically Liverpool will grow slowly but surely in the next 5 years. However....when all thats left to be built has been built in the city centre and all the Beethams and such are complete and theres little else to add, there will be no incentive whatsoever for any ecconomic expansion into the deprived areas.

The main beneficiarys will be the city centre land owners (most of whom are from outside of the city), the people who are already well off, property developers, landlords and lettings agencies, etc. in other words the people who were already doing well out of Liverpool already.

At the moment I see no reason whatsoever for any major banking or financial sector to relocate massively to Liverpool. i can only see a future of more call centre jobs, more low grade service industry work and such....because after all what are we building? An arena, a shopping centre to be filled with mobile and trainee shops, a few nice bars and hotels....more and more service industry.

I see no evidence whatsoever in any other industry being invested in the way Manchester are developing Salford Quays into a new media hub of the north. I see no digital industry, no masisve IT developments, nothing new. Worse still no major schemes for education and training as far as i can see to equip the local workforce.

Young intelligent people will continue having to move away because of a lack of rewarding roles and money.

Meanwhile what companies will be left such as Peel....well....I can't see them putting up with the constant compromises and projects that have to be scrapped to suit LCC and EH's so called "planning", where schemes get reduced to being a pile of shite. The more failures and comprimises the fewer companies are going to want to come and build anything of value here. I'm convinced that in the development world our city has already got itself a reputation as being "difficult".

....and you know how it is with our city when a sterotype kicks in....they last for decades and we can never shake them!



Sadly I feel the current boom is based on two things that are unsustainable:

1. CoC buzz....which will be gone come 2010.
2. The current favourable ecconomic climate....which is due a sharp downturn towards the back end of the decade.

I feel the current wave of optimism will be replaced by the cold harsh reality of the way we went about things in this city.

....and everyone from EH, CABE, LCC, Liverpool Vision and all the other quangos and unelected fools who seem to have gained power from god knows where, will be to blame.

:|

Good to see the spirit of Joe Anderson alive and well in this thread.

And in the case of Evertonian something more pernicious.

Not sure that nowhere outside the City Centre has received money. Toxteth has had plenty of money over the years, Kensington likewise more recently. Speke Garston is undergoing major investment. LCC has tried thus far unsuccessfully to improve the Edge Lane corridor. LFC is ploughing millions into Anfield / Breckfield. EFC / Tesco (not a sly dig honest) likewise in Kirkby.
Project Jennifer is transforming Great Homer St / Scotty Road and West Everton is undergoing a bit of a renaissance.

I do agree that there is a massive disparity between the City centre but that is where most of the city's wealth is generated. But we do need first class office facilities, improved shopping, greater restaurant / bar facilities

There was a fascinating program on Liverpool with Lloyd Grossman recently where a guy from Toxteth was remarking that all these posh new apartments and offices are all well and good, but how is the wealth going to spread out???

Wealth is not something that is given to you, you have to go out and work hard for it. Those posh new apartments are mostly built in old derelict areas or rundown parts of the city, by private developers, it's not the gov/council spending your tax money on yuppie flats. Also these flats would not be approved, or would not be financially viable in reduced form in many rundown estates/areas.


Manchester, Glasgow and London have all done regeneration the right way planting major works and regeneration schemes in the HEART of the deprived areas....especially London with the east end and the Olympic Village they're building there. The PEOPLE stand to benefit with the fascilities which will last for decades and will bring wealth and inward investment into a deprived area.


Have they really, remember the Olympics is a big taxpayer funded scheme, BBC Salford is a big taxpayer funded scheme, only the funny thing for the deprived in Liverpool is, it will come out of their tax/license payments also.


Where has this happened here!??? Albert, Kings and Princes Dock where a load of footballers and wealthy people already live? The graces site which was already a worldwide attraction and world class iconic waterfront anyway? The city centre which was already booming with some of the best apartments, nightlife, clubs, bars, resturants, galeries, and culture in Europe???

St Pauls Sq close to previous run down resi area, Speke/Garston Airport, business park, Jaguar Land Rover, shopping area opposite airport, big development Morrisons Speke, EFC academy, Edge Lane, business/media park, regen of entire strech (delayed by residents who have every right to), East Lancs, business park under construction along both sides of main road, Kirkby, massive industrial park existing + expanding Alchemy park, EFC/Tesco + existing LFC academy.


We've done the complete opposite here in Liverpool to the percieved wisdom on regeneration. While Toxteth, Anfield, Edge Lane, parts of south Liverpool, Everton, Birkenhead & Seacombe, etc....have recieved fuck all from the millions plowed into Merseyside, the city centre, which didn't need special attention has had effort, time and money plowed into it.


The city centre is a lot more complex than say Toxteth, wich is mostly 2/3 storey residential. The city centre did need attention, it was a lot more run down than Toxteth in parts. It is the centre of any city that generates the wealth, let the centre collapse, and the residents of Toxteth will have even less opportunities within walking distance.


Then in an interview on this program I hear the Liverpool Vision (or whatever quango it is) guy say "We'll do up the city centre first THEN form ANOTHER company to sort out the rest". I vuaguely remember the program, but it sounds like you are attributing or twisting someone elses comments to sound bad, an LV spokesman wouldn't say that.


That's their answer to everything in this city: "Oh we'll form another company". ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! The deprived areas should have been sorted out first. The strategy should have been to put offices, companies and new apartments and buildings there, "gentrifying" those areas in the same way that parts of Manchester were and how areas like Harlem in NY are being sorted out (and are now desirable areas to live after decades of poverty). It should have been a system in place where people were told "Ok if you want to come and take our PFI money, our EU Objective One funds, our cultural grants you can....when you build, here, here and here. This area needs regenerating so extra planning consent and funds may be available"....and it should have been companies steered towards Toxteth and the areas of deprivation. You cant put big city centre offices/companies in a run down residential area, they won't go there, and residents will oppose, that's why city centres develop, because they allow bigger and bigger buildings and companies and car parks and the many other wealth generating things that provide employment for the residential areas around the centre. Also you can't simply gentrify some where, that comes about due to people chosing to live there and doing the place up, not some gentrification quango .


English Heritage should have been given short thrift by LCC dont get me wrong, but people on here are seriously deluded as well. Theres places in Liverpool falling apart and all people can bang on about is a few storeys being lobbed off some riduclous tower (what is it with you guys and your obsession with towers and their height!? lol).

This is also a Skyscraper Forum...and we attack E.H. because they are reducing the impact of schemes (of all types), and the wealth they can create, also giving Liverpool a reputation of "can't do" for big schemes, to wealth generating developers.
(P.S. what is it with you Evertonian and your obsession with regeneration in resi areas...! lol).



The Stop the Rot campaign seems to be going nowhere as all sides squablle. The irish centre....falling apart, some of the fine edwardian and victorian buildings we have....derelict and falling apart.

Why aren't EH being reported for their failings?

Many buildings have been highlighted and saved by S.T.R., but it is only an Echo campaign, not a powerful govt/council scheme, and CPO's can be lenghty.
Many people on here have complained about E.H. and they have been criticised, if you feel more is needed then they will be hearing from you soon...!




I see no evidence whatsoever in any other industry being invested in the way Manchester are developing Salford Quays into a new media hub of the north. I see no digital industry, no masisve IT developments, nothing new. Worse still no major schemes for education and training as far as i can see to equip the local workforce. Edge lane...! the business park, old Littlewoods building.



1. CoC buzz....which will be gone come 2010.
2. The current favourable ecconomic climate....which is due a sharp downturn towards the back end of the decade.

1) was regenerating before then.
2) will apply to all cities.

I was asked how I saw the ecconomy developing and in my view I saw nothing that has changed significantly to provide the people of Merseyside the training, education, industry and opportunity to see massive change.

The service industry is only place where I can see largescale investment and development, with L1, the new bars and resturants opening and the areana and such.

If people want to believe that LCC and Liverpool Vision and all those quangos couldn't have directed the regeneration a lot better then fair enough. I believe they did things the wrong way round and areas like Manchester, Harlem NY and the decisions made on London for the olympics should have been the model and ecconomic driver.

Reagerdless of how they got the money whether it was through tax payers money or whatever, they DIRECTED that investmnt in the right areas....we havent in my opinion. BTW We've also had tax payers money that goes to Europe, being sent back to us as Objective one money, which people from manchester and London have had to pay. The difference being that rather than direct that money to deprived areas we have spent it on an already glorious waterfront that didnt need anything doing to it and a shopping centre.

I accept totally the need for the arena but why does ANYTHING need to be built on that graces site??? Especially when theres vast tracks of land from Kings Dock down south the whole prom stretch down to otterspool/garden Festival site (which doesn't fall into WHS zones as well!). How about some iconic buildings in south Liverpool??? Why does everything have to be done within eyesight of the waterfront? manchester don't do things like that they see their city as being much far reaching.



In general all I see is a lot of money being made out of Liverpool by outsiders and a situation where a lot of my friends are working away from home as theres nothin but low grade call centre and service industry jobs readily available in Liverpool.


Hey....I hope i'm proved wrong.

Oh and I can assure you the LV spokesman did say that the intention was to do the city centre first then in a few years time to form yet another company to look at the surrounding areas.

I have it stored on my hard drive recorder.

Well give us an example of how they should have done it, but remember we weren't awarded the £9billion Olympics or BBC relocation. Also remember you can apply most of your arguments about Liverpool to everywhere else.

Service jobs:London & Manchester runs on them.
Big developments:London & Manchester concentrated on centre.
Money made by outsiders:London & Manchester, Middle east,Irish,American, Russians, the world, own a lot of apartments land business in both cities.

There are still large areas on Lon, Man, high up on the deprived list, this after the multi billions spent in those cities, why wasnt Canary wharf built in a rundown resi area, instead of docklands, so as to give them all jobs (these would be service jobs ofcourse)...!

My point being, yuppies and the rich and foreigners have benefitted also from developments like apartments, offices, investment in all cities, and these developments mostly happen in city centres, so it comes across as being insular to simply blame them, or to use the massive one off Olympics as a reason for why things anren't great in Liverpool.

Well give us an example of how they should have done it, but remember we weren't awarded the £9billion Olympics or BBC relocation. Also remember you can apply most of your arguments about Liverpool to everywhere else.

Service jobs:London & Manchester runs on them.
Big developments:London & Manchester concentrated on centre.
Money made by outsiders:London & Manchester, Middle east,Irish,American, Russians, the world, own a lot of apartments land business in both cities.

There are still large areas on Lon, Man, high up on the deprived list, this after the multi billions spent in those cities, why wasnt Canary wharf built in a rundown resi area, instead of docklands, so as to give them all jobs (these would be service jobs ofcourse)...!

There are service jobs and service jobs.As you know finance is in the service sector,these are jobs in Canary Wharf and Manchester cty centre.Liverpool has failed to attract these jobs in any numbers,they are not all well paid but certainly better than bar and retail.As far regenerating the city centre first,i think this was the right thing to do,kick start the local economy but it hasn't happened at the pace of other cities.

You guys have a real talent for talking your city down, and fair play - you do it in such an utterly compelling way.

I think they have it about right, because if you develope the city centre first, and encourage business to move to Liverpool, you then create jobs, had it been the other way around it would have taken years and years, simply put everyone would have screwed the system financially, you know, dont knock down our community oh well go on then but cross my palm with silver plus several court appeal cases would soon see the money dwindle. Liverpool has done the right thing in encouraging private sector investment into the city center in order to create and sustain more jobs. We need more Yuppie flats and Yuppie people because they pay the higher council taxes that in the end will improve services that the council can offer to its population. if this had happend the other way around then how would people have found jobs without development in the city center? there are large areas of Manchester that are boarded up, only to see residents constantly fighting the council, (which costs money) so, if people wish to live in run down damp rotting terris houses (you know the community thing again) then leave things in the suberbs as they are.
kat:nuts: :nuts:

There are service jobs and service jobs.As you know finance is in the service sector,these are jobs in Canary Wharf and Manchester cty centre.Liverpool has failed to attract these jobs in any numbers,they are not all well paid but certainly better than bar and retail.As far regenerating the city centre first,i think this was the right thing to do,kick start the local economy but it hasn't happened at the pace of other cities.

Maybe so, but the point is London didn't build this development in the middle of, for example their equivalent of, "The Boot estate", and say "there we are, good quality high paid jobs for the deprived", at which point all the problems of the Boot estate were cured, not a single yuppie or foreigner employed there, unlike that Liverpool who can't do anything right, with a fraction of the same investment.


I would agree with a point that the Quangos and council have not done enough to get inward investment, (public or private), but disagree with the blame being put on "Yuppies" or "foreigners" or "The private tower developments on the docks in Liverpool".

You guys have a real talent for talking your city down, and fair play - you do it in such an utterly compelling way.

Well Richard,i think it's time to look beyond the cranes and spin and see what's actually happening.It can appear a bit negative but it's no use burying our heads in the sand.Things are improving there's doubt about that,especially the physically appearance of the city but we could and should be doing alot better.

I think they have it about right, because if you develope the city centre first, and encourage business to move to Liverpool, you then create jobs, had it been the other way around it would have taken years and years, simply put everyone would have screwed the system financially, you know, dont knock down our community oh well go on then but cross my palm with silver plus several court appeal cases would soon see the money dwindle. Liverpool has done the right thing in encouraging private sector investment into the city center in order to create and sustain more jobs. We need more Yuppie flats and Yuppie people because they pay the higher council taxes that in the end will improve services that the council can offer to its population. if this had happend the other way around then how would people have found jobs without development in the city center? there are large areas of Manchester that are boarded up, only to see residents constantly fighting the council, (which costs money) so, if people wish to live in run down damp rotting terris houses (you know the community thing again) then leave things in the suberbs as they are.
kat:nuts: :nuts:

Exactly right, people in Manchester have been shafted by Quangos developing (demolishing) large areas, only for the residents to be priced out.

Also jobs are not created by regenerating these area, (except for builders brought in from outside, sometimes foreign builders), they just improve the fabric of the area, the people living there will still be in the same situation they were in before regeneration.

Evertonian - the reality is quite different than your perception. Liverpool has had a well resourced and well regarded programme of neighbourhood renewal for years now - investing in the most deprived areas, building community facilities, improving the environment, providing more training and more help to people to gain work, improve health, reduce crime etc. Over £150m has been spent and it's had some impact. This is not "city centre" stuff, it's often only seen by locals who enjoy the improved services and facilities and opportunities. At the same time, it's vital for economic development that the city sweats its assets to create new jobs and employment, and that means it must make the most of its city centre.

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Business/Economic_development/Competitiveness_and_social_inclusion/Neighbourhood_renewal_strategy/index.asp

I like this forum, and I like the fact that anyone can post anything, but it's important to keep a grip on reality.

Ive always defended LV against people who criticise them for focussing on the city centre.

There are hundreds of millions of pounds of investment either programmed/under construction/planned for the outer areas. Some of the projects have already been mentioned (Edge Lane, Speke, Project Jennifer, New stadia, new business parks around the East Lancs, Airport expansion, Liverpool Waters, New Heartlands e.g. Park Road etc), but inevitably the focus must be on the centre first.

The city centre is the ecomonic driver for the whole of Merseyside and to put it bluntly it was fundamentally broken. It did not do what a city centre was supposed to do (generate wealth) and had to be addressed as a matter of urgency. This is happening now.

Also, you plough lots of money into Toxteth, but Kenny's still screwed. You put money into the centre, the whole city benefits through job creation and the realtive increase in prosperity.

As to the question of building lots o flats in the city centre, well there always has to be a lag between supply and demand. The flats have to be there the minute someone decides to move here. We cant have a system where people have to somehow commit to moving here, which only then kicks start the building of a home for them.

Supply creates demand.

Reneneration of Liverpool will occur along two paths:

1. Make Liverpool people better off.
2. Get outsiders in with money to spend already.

The second of these is easier in the short term. As such, go for events (CofC), build hotels, conferences centres and arenas, canals, museums, galleries, cafes, shops and bars etc.

The money starts to flow in and these places need to employ people..local people. This process supports the first path, increasing prosperity for locals. (It's also a myth that this will just create poorly paid jobs. Many of these jobs will be managerial and also the independant retail sector is potential source of great wealth).

Locals then have more money to spend, causing businesses to move here to exploit that e.g. wealth managment/banking/investment services. This creates more jobs, but these jobs will take longer to be attracted. These newer jobs will be available for local people, further increasing prosperity.

The cycle should start supporting itself soon enough and off we go. Hey presto.

give us an example of how they should have done it, but remember we weren't awarded the £9billion Olympics or BBC relocation.

I'm sick of this anti London/Manc arguement that they get given everything and we have to feed off the scraps. It's a poor mentality.

Merseyside has recieved tens of millions of pounds of European Objective One money this year (which everyone has to pay for). £9 million alone for the new ferry terminal. Effectievly a handout.

It has CHOSEN to spend that money on the waterfront and city centre instead of where the problems lie.

It has also experienced approximately 4bn worth of investment all of which the local government could have directed via planning policy towards certain areas and certain goals.

For whatever reason that hasn't been the aim of LV....with knowledgable people in the field of regeneration, including a few on that Grossman program argueing that it was done the wrong way round.

I'm not trying to shoot Liverpool down, I am simply agreeing with those people.

Regardless of where the money had been found or where it came from Manchester built on brownfield inner city sites during the commonwealth games and it's wider regeneration, it built the City of manchester stadium on derelict land for example. The east end of london will be getting similar treatment because it is accepted wisdom that those areas are where favourable planning permissions and local government backing and help should go to.

We should have done the same, leaving the private sector to build on the docks and desirable locations.


We have a situation now where there are numerous schemes going on in the WHS "3 graces" area....an area of already outstanding worth and well visited.

....meanwhile south Liverpool and particularly down towards the garden festival siteis derelict. Large tracks of land in Vauxhall JUST over the dock wall are shabby and theres no buinesses being driven into toxteth (remember not every business requires a 40 story gleaming tower) by planning or European money.


The point is we are being awarded millions in European money and are having a £4bn investment boom....the powers that be have the power to direct that into certain areas.

Why?

Beacuse they wanted the city centre to look good for ONE calander year.

There's barely a plan for Culture year, nevermind the next 10-20 years.



Listen I love Liverpool. I love almost EVERY single development I see on this site. I love the arena and I love the towers. I love watching them go up and watching peoples pics as they are being built. I side with the forward thinkers, the 21C'ers.

....but please don't try and make me believe that any time soon this will benefit ordinary people like me in dead end jobs on £6.50 an hour.

The Manchester and London games are very bad examples to be knocking Liverpool with, hugh government tax funding, but ok lets ignore this funding side if you will ignore Liverpools paltry funding and its location. (last bit im not being serious...:) )

Those hugh games schemes are very limited where they can go, if Liverpool won the games, they wouldn't be in the centre also, they would be on brownfield.

You then say we should have done the same as Man Lon, but are you talking about the games they were awarded which Liverpool wasn't, or about all their other regen that has happened in erm....mostly the city centres of those cities.

We don't know about the Olympics yet, it hasn't happened yet so you may be right, all the people mey get good well paid jobs working in the venues, but has the C.O.M.S vastly improved the life of the thousands living around it....!

....meanwhile south Liverpool and particularly down towards the garden festival siteis derelict.
Seriously...! the garden festival site is opposite a well off area, so another bad example, it is also due to be regenerated, (awaiting a decision from the govt after being called in), most of it restored as open space.

....but please don't try and make me believe that any time soon this will benefit ordinary people like me in dead end jobs on £6.50 an hour.

Maybe what i will agree with you on is this link between Culture and jobs, it shouldn't have been made, C.o.C is not about roadworks, new buildings PSDA, new football grounds or decent Jobs, but i think they decided to make the link, (remember one of the C.o.C slogans "14k jobs to be created"), so as to try and get people on side who would be sceptical about C.o.C.

"European Objective" money is supposed to help with jobs, (remember not talking about European C.o.C now), this has been used on training schemes all over Merseyside, used on St Pauls sq to create office jobs (money returned because scheme too successful), Pier head ferry terminal will support jobs and attract tourists and further investment, those jobs will be taken by people from Toxteth or anywhere in the city who has the skills.

I think they have it about right, because if you develope the city centre first, and encourage business to move to Liverpool, you then create jobs, had it been the other way around it would have taken years and years, simply put everyone would have screwed the system financially, you know, dont knock down our community oh well go on then but cross my palm with silver plus several court appeal cases would soon see the money dwindle. Liverpool has done the right thing in encouraging private sector investment into the city center in order to create and sustain more jobs.


I tend to agree. If the city concentrated almost entirely on encouraging investment directly into its more troubled residential areas, the image of the city being a basket case would remain. By putting the emphasis on the city centre, and creating a perception of vitiality and activity, it is far more likely to encourage long term economic growth. The important thing for Liverpool is that it is once again seen as a place to invest in.

That's not to say the troubled areas have to wait. The exact balance may not be right, but I do think initially concentrating on the city centre - in part it is about appearances - makes sense.

People have to want to come to Liverpool.

....meanwhile south Liverpool and particularly down towards the garden festival siteis derelict.


Most of south Liverpool is far from derelict. Even around the derelict garden festival site, the place is OK. In fact, it's quite attractive.

I'm currently living in the South East, but I come back often. I was there around a month ago, staying with my sister in Aigburth. South Liverpool looks like a far, far better place than the drab London satellite town that I currently live in.

Unfortunately I don't share most of you guy's optimism.

In my mind the regeneration of this city has happened the wrong way round entirely. I support every little success and gain, don't get me wrong....but I firmly believe there has been a catastrophic mistake made with the direction the powers that be have taken.

...................Manchester, Glasgow and London have all done regeneration the right way planting major works and regeneration schemes in the HEART of the deprived areas....especially London with the east end and the Olympic Village they're building there. The PEOPLE stand to benefit with the fascilities which will last for decades and will bring wealth and inward investment into a deprived area.


I really don't know where to start on that post. :ohno:

Manchester's regeneration kick-started when a bomb blew it's centre out, and was rebuilt, better than, ever, no expense spared. Beetham's tower is in the HEART on Manchester, as with much other development.

Olympic and Commonwealth Games events are very much grace and favour awards ............. get them first then worry about logistics. Importantly, they are NOT ALLOWED TO FAIL...... because that would be politically unacceptable: hence money is thrown at them. The reason they are placed in 'deprived areas' is less to do with philanthropy and more to do with finding cheap land on which to build them.


.....................and everyone from EH, CABE, LCC, Liverpool Vision and all the other quangos and unelected fools who seem to have gained power from god knows where, will be to blame.

Everyone to blame, except erm........ YOU.

It's easy to criticise but so much harder to do. Liverpool has started late into regeneration but will get there.

Much work is being done by local developers eg Beetham and Illiad etc with little help and taking substantial risks. Some people seem to think 'regeneration work' or 'yuppie appartments' etc etc are sure fire moneyspinners, when that could not be farther rom the truth.

Developers have to develop where the think they can make money ......... otherwise they are hardly going to bother are they? If that means concentrating on the city centre initially, then so be it.

Private developers have shown huge faith, we need to support all aspect of our own regeneration. it is in our hands.

What strikes me about Manchester is that Mancunians, for the most part, have spent the last twenty years talking their city up, not talking it down. They've engaged in overblown fantasies about Manchester's place in world culture. They've talked about it as the capital of the North West, now increasingly of the North as a whole. They've inflated the city's importance on almost every level. They've been every bit as insular, self referrential and self obsessed as any any Scouser, arguably more so. It's annoying...

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2006/06/paulmorleyL210606_175x125.jpg http://www.visitmanchester.com/images/homepage/logo_visit_manchester.gif http://www.visitmanchester.com/images/top_level/image_gallery_back.jpg
http://www.vivienneclore.com/articles/images/tonywilson_new.jpg

But, you know what? I think it's played it's part in changing the national perception of Manchester. Obviously, the presence of television in Manchester, not to mention the role of the Guardian and even the NME, has made that process easier. It's enabled Mancunians to talk their up local mythologies as if they had national importance, which has increasingly proved self fulfilling. The national perception of Manchester is now very different to how it was twenty years ago.

The perception of Liverpool has also altered, though not nearly as much.

There are many reasons for that. I think there really is a tendency in much of the media to resort to bigotry in the case of Liverpool. I relate it to the historic prejudice the Irish suffered from the English, indeed I think it is connected. That's another subject though. Also, there is the aforementioned role of the Manchester media. Geography maybe plays a role too. But, surely there's a role for people in and of Liverpool to play? It would be glib nonsense to pretend that only 'perceptions' matter, but they undoubtedly play a part.

Sadly, we have to acknowledge that we can learn from Manchester, especially if we want to compete with it on equal terms.

Maybe more Liverpudlians need to learn to talk up their city. It's not as if it has nothing to offer. Indeed, considering what Manchester was twenty years ago, Liverpool has a far greater inheritance to draw upon. Liverpool isn't a shithole. It's got lot going for it, not just in terms of the city centre architecture, or the football or the bloody Beatles.

Capitalism, love it or loathe it, is the basis of our economy. Confidence plays a massive role in its ebbs and flows. Markets go up or down as a result of it, or its absence. It is quite possible to talk something down, or talk it up. Every negative story does a great deal of damage to Liverpool, more so than in London or Manchester. I'd suggest that every negative national story has as much impact as ten positive ones. Therefore, we really need to do a lot of talking up...

This may seem like a major diversion from the subject of the thread, though I'm not so sure it is.

Quite honestly, anyone approaching Liverpool from the South might ask the question 'why has all this money been spent in Speke and Garston and not on the city centre for Capital of Culture year?'

Think of what has been achieved there:

Mersey Wave Sculpture and landscaping of Speke Boulevard

New retail centre for Speke

The Boulevard Industrial Park

The Estuary Commerce Park

Work started on the Wings leisure park

The 4* Marriott hotel

The New Mersey Retail Park

The Matchworks and Match Box

Liverpool South Parkway Station

New housing by Garston docks

And not forgetting of course the massive expansion of Liverpool John Lennon Airport

The City Centre is only one of five strategic investment areas in the city. Obviously, the redevelopment of the centre will take priority as this is Liverpool's face to the world and the focus of its valuable tourist trade. It isn't a simple case of just building yuppie flats. Think of what else has been achieved:

A billion pound shopping centre on an area of the city previously mainly derelict.

The St Paul's Square office complex.

The Kings Waterfront arena, convention centre and hotels

The Museum of Liverpool

Mixed use developments such as Beetham, Unity and Central Village

The Met Quarter

The Cruise Liner Terminal

People easily forget how dilapidated the centre was not that long ago. Go to Dr Duncans, Nandos, the Marriott Hotel or La Tasca nowadays and try and remember that only a few years ago Queen Square was a featureless car park in the heart of the city centre.

Certainly there is a great need for regeneration outside of the city centre but don't forget what has already been acheived.

What strikes me about Manchester is that Mancunians, for the most part, have spent the last twenty years talking their city up, not talking it down. They've engaged in overblown fantasies about Manchester's place in world culture. They've talked about it as the capital of the North West, now increasingly of the North as a whole. They've inflated the cities importance on almost every level. They've been every bit as insular, self referrential and self obsessed as any any Scouser, arguably more so. It's annoying...

......Capitalism, love it or loathe it, is the basis of our economy. Confidence plays a massive role in its ebbs and flows. Markets go up or down as a result of it, or its absence. It is quite possible to talk something down, or talk it up. Every negative story does a great deal of damage, more so than in London or Manchester. I'd suggest that every negative national story about Liverpool has as much impact as ten positive ones. Therefore, we really need to do a lot of talking up...

This may seem like a major diversion from the subject of the thread, though I'm not so sure it is.


Amen to that Richard_A

Quite honestly, anyone approaching Liverpool from the South might ask the question 'why has all this money been spent in Speke and Garston and not on the city centre for Capital of Culture year?'

..............People easily forget how dilapidated the centre was not that long ago. Go to Dr Duncans, Nandos, the Marriott Hotel or La Tasca nowadays and try and remember that only a few years ago Queen Square was a featureless car park in the heart of the city centre.

Certainly there is a great need for regeneration outside of the city centre but don't forget what has already been acheived.

And Amen to that too! Confidence is what we need a subsidy of, as much s anything!

I actually drove through the new Speke centre today and was quietly impressed. I was more impressed with the new housing being developed in Garton though. A broad swathe of Garston has been cometely redeveloped for the better. Of course, there is still work to do but it is undeniable progress is being made.

Soon other areas will catch up. Another outer city project I'd forgotten about is the Taskers led redevelopment in Kensington. This is a couple of years away but will help a great deal.

As to confidence in the city in general, well I'm actually waiting with baited breath for Central Village to go on site. When it does a huge hole in the city centre will be filled and I will be much more confident in the future of the city. It's location and contents will do much to inspire a positive feeling in Liverpool as a city going places. You will be able to see it from all over the shop.

The next 5 years + will see a lot of forward movement in the local economy, there's an awful lot of groundwork gone in and still going into the region to make the future prosperous. The real test will be how the region kicks on over the next 10/15 years.

Some small indicators - I got the train to Wigan a couple of weeks back, adjacent to Prescot and St Helens stations there's some meaty residential and commercial development going on. There's no way this would have happened a few years back and is another bud of recovery.

Chairman chosen for Liverpool plc

and he has waived the £50k salary.....:cheers:

Link to full Daily Post item (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/business/business-local/2007/10/10/big-hitter-recruited-to-fill-key-city-job-64375-19924710/)

Work started on the Wings leisure park

Martin, what is this referring to?

Martin, what is this referring to?

Isn't that the cinema/leisure/shopping area next to Liverpool airport.

Here is a pdf, don't know how up to date this is though (http://www.peelholdings.co.uk/peelholdings/source/downloads/dl38187.646099537.pdf)

Chairman chosen for Liverpool plc

and he has waived the £50k salary.....:cheers:

Link to full Daily Post item (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/business/business-local/2007/10/10/big-hitter-recruited-to-fill-key-city-job-64375-19924710/)

Sounds impressive.

Isn't that the cinema/leisure/shopping area next to Liverpool airport.

Here is a pdf, don't know how up to date this is though (http://www.peelholdings.co.uk/peelholdings/source/downloads/dl38187.646099537.pdf)

Thanks for the info.:)

I missed this one.

Chairman chosen for Liverpool plc

and he has waived the £50k salary.....:cheers:

Link to full Daily Post item (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/business/business-local/2007/10/10/big-hitter-recruited-to-fill-key-city-job-64375-19924710/)

Great, but it would be unhelpful for the city body to take on Mersey Partnership's role on inward investment. Inward investment is best tackled at city regional rather than local authority level, and it would be disastrous if, for example, Liverpool and Wirral started competing for inward investors.

Hopefully sense will prevail.