Here's an interesting site covering deeply the issue of the buildings to be demolished just because...they close the view of the Akropolis from the restaurant of the museum. Is that to what our civilization has been reduced to? A restaurant???


For more info read the following text or visit the site at http://areopagitou17.blogspot.com/ (I think there's also a saving petition application). And for those who don't speak fluently in Greek you can watch the video down the post.

ΑΠΟΧΑΡΑΚΤΗΡΙΣΜΟΣ ΜΝΗΜΕΙΟΥ & ΔΙΑΤΗΡΗΤΕΩΝ ΣΤΗ Δ. ΑΡΕΟΠΑΓΙΤΟΥ

Το σχέδιο για αποχαρακτηρισμό, απαλλοτρίωση και κατεδάφιση των διατηρήτεων κτηρίων στη Διονυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου 17 και 19 πρέπει να απορριφθεί για τους εξής λόγους:

ΘΕΣΜΟΙ

Τα δύο κτήρια κυρήχθηκαν διατηρητέα από το ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ το 1978 (μαζί με άλλα επτά επι της Διονυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου), και το κτήριο 17 κηρύχθηκε μνημείο από το ΥΠΠΟ το 1988. Ο νόμος ορίζει οτι ο αποχαρακτηρισμός επιτρέπεται μόνο αν ο αρχικός χαρακτηρισμός ήταν εσφαλμένος. Ουδείς έχει αμφισβητήσει σοβαρά την ορθότητα των αρχικών χαρακτηρισμών. Συνεπώς, ο αποχαρακτηρισμός δεν έχει νομική βάση.
Τυχόν άρση του χαρακτηρισμού θα υπονομεύσει συνολικά το θεσμό της διατήρησης κτηρίων και μνημείων, αφού αυτή θα θεωρείται προσωρινή ή υπό αίρεση.
Στις προδιαγραφές του αρχιτεκτονικού διαγωνισμού του Νέου Μουσείου Ακρόπολης (ΝΜΑ) υπήρχε ο όρος οτι τα διατηρητέα παραμένουν. Το ΤΕΕ και ο ΣΑΔΑΣ έχουν επισημάνει ότι τυχόν κατεδάφιση τους αλλάζει εκ των υστέρων τα δεδομένα και δημιουργεί ζήτημα εγκυρότητας του διαγωνισμού. Γενικότερα δε υποσκάπτει το κύρος του θεσμού των αρχιτεκτονικών διαγωνισμών.
Με δεδομένο το τελικό σχέδιο του ΝΜΑ, το ΚΑΣ (2003) και το Συμβούλιο της Επικρατείας (2005) το ενέκριναν επειδή «δεν θα είναι ορατό από τη Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου», δηλαδή επειδή θα το κρύβουν τα δύο διατηρητέα κτήρια. Σύμφωνα με το σκεπτικό, αν το ΝΜΑ ήταν ορατό, θα υπήρχε πιθανόν δυσαρμονία με τα μνημεία της Ακρόπολης, λόγω του μεγάλου όγκου του.
Η Ελλάδα έχει υπογράψει διεθνείς συμβάσεις για την προστασία μνημείων που πιθανότατα παραβιάζονται αν κατεδαφιστούν τα δύο διατηρητέα.
Η διαδικασία με την οποία το ΚΑΣ και το ΚΣΝΜ γνωμοδότησαν προς τον ΥΠΠΟ στις 3/07/07 υπέρ του αποχαρακτηρισμού του κτηρίου 17 ήταν μεθοδευμενη και διάτρητη.

ΠΟΛΙΤΙΣΜΟΣ

Ευρωπαϊκοί λαοί με αυτοπεποίθηση σέβονται και διατηρούν την αρχιτεκτονική κληρονομιά όλων των γενεών. Αντίθετα, στο τρίτο κόσμο γύρω από τα αρχαία υπάρχουν μόνο αναψυκτήρια.
Το κτήριο Κουρεμένου (αρ. 17) είναι από τα πιο σημαντικά του μεσοπολέμου στην Αθήνα, το ωραιότερο δείγμα Art Deco στην πόλη. Αναφέρεται συχνά στη βιβλιογραφία, και έχει επιλεγεί ως ένα από τα 113 πιο αξιόλογα νεοελληνικά κτήρια από το Γερμανικό Μουσείο Αρχιτεκτονικής.
Το «μέτωπο» των διατηρητέων της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου, κατά την εκτίμηση των αρχιτεκτόνων, είναι μια ανθολογία εξαιρετικής αρχιτεκτονικής που μαζί με τα μνημεία της Ακρόπολης σχηματίζει τον ωραιότερο πεζόδρομο της Ευρώπης. Το μέτωπο «... προστατέυει ταπεινά με την ομορφιά του από τη βουή και την αγριάδα της πόλης πίσω ...».

ΘΕΑ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΡΙΣΜΟΣ

Τα διατηρητέα δεν κλείνουν τη θέα προς το βράχο της Ακρόπολης από την αίθουσα των γλυπτών του Παρθενώνα του ΝΜΑ, που έχει πάρει κατά παρέκκλιση ύψος για το σκοπό αυτό. Από το επίπεδο του εστιατορίου φαίνεται άνετα ο Παρθενώνας, όλο το τείχος, και μεγάλο μέρος του βράχου. Μόνο από την άκρη της υπαίθριας εξέδρας εστιατορίου εμποδίζεται ουσιαστικά η θέα.
Οι περισσότεροι επισκέπτες του ΝΜΑ θα επισκέπονται και την Ακρόπολη, και θα περπατούν σε Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου, Φιλοπάππου, Αρχαία Αγορά, άρα θα βλέπουν το βράχο από πολλά σημεία.
Τα κτήρια της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου είναι αναπόσπαστο μέρος του περίπατου για επισκέπτες και Αθηναίους. Οι ξεναγοί τα δείχνουν ως εξαιρετικά δέιγματα της νεότερης αρχιτεκτονικής. Ιδιαίτερα στέκονται στο κτήριο Κουρεμένου (αρ. 17).
Συνεπώς μόνο οι βιαστικοί επισκέπτες των package tours θα επωφελούντο από την «απρόσκοπτη θέα» του εστιατορίου.

ΕΚΚΡΕΜΟΤΗΤΑ ΜΕ ΤΙΣ ΠΙΣΩ ΟΨΕΙΣ

θα περάσουν χρόνια μέχρι να εκδικαστούν οι προσφυγές. Εν τω μεταξύ θα πρέπει να δοθεί λύση στο πρόβλημα της πίσω όψης των δύο διατηρητέων, που πράγματι ενοχλούν αισθητικά. Μπορεί σε λίγους μήνες να σχεδιαστεί και να υλοποιηθεί μια εικαστική παρέμβαση, μια αρχιτεκτονική ανάπλαση ή μια πυκνή δενδροφύτευση, που θα προσθέσουν ένα ωραίο στοιχείο στην αισθητική απόλαυση του επισκέπτη.

ΟΙΚΟΝΟΜΙΑ

Η απαλλοτρίωση των δύο κτηρίων θα κοστίσει στο δημόσιο μερικές δεκάδες εκατομμύρια ευρώ, για ένα άκρως αμιφιλεγόμενο σκοπό. Υπάρχουν καλύτερες χρήσεις για αυτά τα χρήματα, όπως πχ η συντήρηση άλλων μνημείων ή μουσείων.

ΚΟΙΝΗ ΓΝΩΜΗ

Ο ΥΠΠΟ έλαβε εκατοντάδες επιστολές διαμαρτυρίας που έστειλαν οι Αθηναίοι πολίτες καθώς και ξένοι επισκέπτες και φορείς, από τον Ιούλιο 2007. Το θέμα προβλήθηκε σε μεγάλη έκταση σε ελληνικά και διεθνή μέσα ενημέρωσης. Στο διαδίκτυο, τα σχόλια ήταν πολλά και συντριπτικά υπέρ της διατήρησης των κτηρίων.
Σήμερα οι περαστικοί στη Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου στέκονται και υπογράφουν κατά εκατοντάδες σε σχετικό βιβλίο για να σωθούν τα κτήρια
Οι φορείς που συμπαρίστανται περιλαμβάνουν: ΤΕΕ, ΣΑΔΑΣ-ΠΕΑ, Αρχιτεκτονική Σχολή του ΕΜΠ και του Παν. Πατρών, World Archaeological Congress, Ελληνική Εταιρία Περιβάλλοντος και Πολιτισμού, Δήμος Ιωαννίνων
Επίσης, δεκάδες επώνυμοι, με δηλώσεις τους, έλληνες και ξένοι: ακαδημαϊκοί, καθηγητές αρχιτεκτονικής, νομικοί, τ. υπουργοί, καλλιτέχνες έχουν ταχθεί κατά της κατεδάφισης.


Magsh69jth0

All these months im reading all these threads about not demolish these 2 buildings in front of the new acropolis museum, i have read phrases like "an other sad day to be greek" and "Greece destroys its history" .so out of this world phrases that makes me felt so uncomfortable that can exist some persons that say so easy phrases like being sad about nationality and without any "re-thinking" of what they say.....
lets have here the second opinion....and lets have the democratic feeling to say that there is also an other way of thinking than the so easy way of dissapointing and insaulting a nationality in an architecture forum...
what these buildings should be demolish....
1/these two buildings are really beautifull on the front and tottaly ugly on their oposite side,the side looks on the face of the new acropolis museum,AC boxes,even a whole "prokat" illegal balcony room build on the top floor that shows how its owners respect the buildings by making illegal and ugly structures on the baclonies and replacing the back of the building with awful ACs.
2/The owners of the 2 buildngs are going to take a lot of money for the demolish,millions of euros each,due to the highest prices per square metre that this area has,with so many money can buy any free place in the centre and build exactly the same buildings and hopefully with different backs
3/actually the view is cut on the acropolis even from the parthenon room on the top floor,you can see the parthenon but is really dificult to see the acropolis and the propilea on the west,as for the restaurant and the other rooms no view,and specificaly awful view on the back of these buildings that so easy we say that is just ok while a visit on the place can make you realize how bad it is.
4/all the persons screaming against the demolish are the same people that where agaist the build of the new acropolis museum and the same people saying lies that destroys archaelogical finds,36 times!!!!in the courts
i would like to know what arcaelogical finds have been found during the building of these 2 buildings in the past while they are few metres from the acropolis monuments and what happened to these finds that seems to been destroyed and dissapeared in addition of the new acropolis museum that protects in its basement an amazing arcaelogical find in such a good way that these will be the highlight of this museum
5/i was making a conversation with some people living in that area,they where against the demolish as i have said above where against the new acropolis museum,and against in any improvement in general,and at last i have ask them,if you are so sensitive about art and culture why your baconies that circle the museum are like chicken houses???why you have so ungly neighbourhood under the acropolis monuments???did you respect anything by having so ungly teracces??
6/Tsumi the architect of this buildng are on the top 5 of the best architecture faces nowrdays,yesterday the same person in the concert hall of the city said that the new acropolis museum is the best building has made so far and after that building is an other architect and has an update ability,so important phrases from a person that is a king of the modern arhcitecture nowrdays
7/new acropolis museum is definetely one of the best building of Athens and maybe the best,its quality and mendality and its amazing indoors are the best tool to keep theacropolis treasures in the best condtion,these 2 buildigs are just a pron on all this project
8/where was all these people screaming against demolish before 40 yeas where all the Athens city was full of neoclassical buildings that have been destroyed for some modern,boxy ungly ones that change the architecture face of this city???
9/why in the news we hear allways the oposite opinion and not all the opinion about this fact??
10/ why we give again a chance to the british museum to think that it cannot return to Greece the marbels,the same propaganda have been made from the same museum against the buildng of the new acropolis museum for the fake arcaelogical destraction on its basements,something so bad if you thonk that the british museum has almst destroyed the acropolis marbels while they are trying to make them "white"
11/why you put so attention on that matter and not on the returning of the marbels to the mother country in a museum build for the most sunny capital of eruope that will present the marbels on the way that the same Phedias was thinking,in the light of the amazing attica sun?????
12/why giving attention to the people making fakes things as allways and makng propaganda and taking so easy decisions like sad way to be a greek in a world forum like this.......nothing else to say!!!!!!!!!


In the youtube video the people against demolish are describing the city of Athens as a dirty and ungly place where you almost canot survive and that the greek state wants to destroy whatever has to do with the culture,these are the people love that city?????????they care more for their houses and money,describing in such bad way Athens city ,that whatever problems it has it is definetely a city that can give you not only dirty and fog but also lively life,great places to eat,drink,clean sea waters,amazing monuments,museums,churches,and also an other unique way of enjoying your life,i have so many firends abroad i have invite them to this city that(the dirty and ugly place THEY describe on YOUTUBE these people)and have been suprised positivelly especially for its new amazing metro and facilities,,,not only making propaganda against demolish but they show the worst for their city....congratulations!!!!!

I have posted this elsewhere, but it's fitting here, too...

Why oh, why can't people leave the little that's left of our architectural heritage alone? The buildings obstruct the view from the cafeteria alone; and, even if you don't care about the buildings themselves, you should understand that they are part of an architectural "necklace" that gracefully and fittingly surrounds the Acropolis. Removing them, will result in the new museum antagonizing the Parthenon, by virtue of its sheer size. Don't get me wrong, I like it (despite it's '60s appearance). But it should not be seen from D. Areopagitou - in fact it was NOT DESIGNED to be seen from there, just check the terms on which it was built, as they were established by the supreme court (STE). The photos from the Acropolis looking down just prove this point, and not the opposite as they were intended to. As for their backsides, they were not meant to be seen. But they can be hidden behind trees.That's all it takes, plant some trees. Even they demolish them, there are trees in front of them. So the view will not change: trees either way. Unless they want to cut them down, too, sacrifice them to the almighty "view" god...
This is SO third-world...we are just proving that we are a country with nothing else to show than ancient ruins...the art of the 1890s or the 1930s (when the buildings in 19 and 17 were built, respectively) says much more about who we are than the ancient ruins.

Please read this http://areopagitou17.blogspot.com/

I have posted this elsewhere, but it's fitting here, too...

Why oh, why can't people leave the little that's left of our architectural heritage alone? The buildings obstruct the view from the cafeteria alone; and, even if you don't care about the buildings themselves, you should understand that they are part of an architectural "necklace" that gracefully and fittingly surrounds the Acropolis. Removing them, will result in the new museum antagonizing the Parthenon, by virtue of its sheer size. Don't get me wrong, I like it (despite it's '60s appearance). But it should not be seen from D. Areopagitou - in fact it was NOT DESIGNED to be seen from there, just check the terms on which it was built, as they were established by the supreme court (STE). The photos from the Acropolis looking down just prove this point, and not the opposite as they were intended to. As for their backsides, they were not meant to be seen. But they can be hidden behind trees.That's all it takes, plant some trees. Even they demolish them, there are trees in front of them. So the view will not change: trees either way. Unless they want to cut them down, too, sacrifice them to the almighty "view" god...
This is SO third-world...we are just proving that we are a country with nothing else to show than ancient ruins...the art of the 1890s or the 1930s (when the buildings in 19 and 17 were built, respectively) says much more about who we are than the ancient ruins.

Please read this http://areopagitou17.blogspot.com/

I tottaly dissagre with you..first of all it ruins the view not only from the cafe but even from the parthenon room,,it doesnt only hide the hill of the Acropolis but it ruins the view with the awful backs of these buildings...backs that as happen noone pay attention to protect our national heritage as you said.....
the trees are not bother the view at all....i would say are better view than the ugly backs of that buildings which is actually in the midle of the antrance of the museum.......
their owners are going to take millions of euros..they can use them to make exactly the same buildings as it happens to all over the worldwhen it is necessary to be demolished some buildings....also they dont seem to care for our national heritage by puttilg AC boxes and build the back verands of the buildigs to make bigger rooms,,,
Greece the last years especially after olympics of2004 is not a third world category counrty......of corse it has disavantages as every county has especially of the european south.....but noone gives you the right to minimize the profil ofthe country and its care about the national heritage.....
this museum and the constructions on the acropolis cost milllions of millions of euros every year to the greeks......we are not going to ruin the NEW ACROPOLIS MUSEUM cause you want to protect your positions on the acropolis......
they have been demolish several buildings to buld this museum..most of the m ugly,the whole area breathes after 30 years from free spaces.....
stop ruin the profil of Greece to protect your buildings...at youtube you describe the city of Athens with black words....!!!!!propaganda against your city.......thes ebuildings are beautifull on the entrances...and awful in any other side......
you want them...???take the money and rebuild them......!!!!!!!!!!
__________________

Thank for calling these buildings mine...but they are not mine..wish they were!
What is "mine" is this city though, my family has been living here since the late 19th century and I feel this place as my own, I suffer for all that it has suffered and continues to suffer. I have not made any youtube videos. In fact, I saw that video and, although I agreed with the issue of preserving the buildings, I wrote to its producer criticizing the fact that he paints a very negative image of Athens.

My propaganda is not against my city. It's against all those who "raped" it and continue to do so. I love Athens - I hate those who destroy it. Typical post-war Greek attitude: they talk too much about history, know little about it and do nothing to protect it. As an architect said, there is no other country that talks so much about its past but so destroys it so systematically at the same time. Because there's more to the past than the 5th century BC

Yes, it's totally third world to consider only the ancient ruins as "national heritage". If you had travelled anywhere, you would have known that. Even in ultra-modern Berlin they are considering rebuilding their castle..

I am trying to understand your quote "they can use them to make exactly the same buildings as it happens to all over the worldwhen it is necessary to be demolished some buildings....also they dont seem to care for our national heritage by puttilg AC boxes and build the back verands of the buildigs to make bigger rooms,,," ...and the only conclusion I can draw is, again, that you have not seen many other capitals. Yes, AC boxes are at the back. Where would you like them to be? The top floor addition was made in 1949 legally as far as I know. If this is not the case, of course it should be removed - it's invisible from the front anyway,so it offers nothing to the fascade of the building. Of course I agree trees would look better that buildings' backsides. That's why I propose to plant many trees and hide the backsides from view . The result will be the same as with the demolition.


In the mid-19th centrury, the same people that build the lovely neoclassical buildings, deemed it appropriate to demolish dozens of Byzantine churches, as they thought that medieval architecture had no place in a "modern" city. A similar rationale, 100 years later, led to the replacement of most neoclassical buildings by modernist structures in the international style in the '50s and '60s. Now, we are protecting most neoclassical buildings (with the exception of No 19...), but we are demolishing inter-war gems such as the one on 17, and we are actually expanding out destructive activity on post-war modernism, destroying the wonderful Xenias of the '60s. When is this going to stop?
Athens has produced wonderful architecture in the last 180 years, but most of it gets "recycled" before a century passes. And the only thing that's left intact are the ancient ruins. This makes this city, the most ancient capital of Europe, look historically hollow. And it's a pity.

H γνωμοδότηση του έγκριτου νομικού και πρώην υπουργού Γεώργιου-Αλέξανδρου Μαγκάκη. (ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΟΤΥΠΙΑ 31/7/07)
Το κείμενο που απευθύνεται στην αναπληρώτρια καθηγήτρια Αρχιτεκτονικής του ΕΜΠ Μάρω Καρδαμίτση-Αδάμ, μία από τους πρωταγωνιστές στην καμπάνια σωτηρίας των κτηρίων, έχει ως εξής:

«Σχετικά με το θέμα του αποχαρακτηρισμού ως διατηρητέων και της προτεινόμενης συνακόλουθης κατεδάφισης των δύο κτηρίων, επιτρέψατέ μου να θέσω υπόψη σας τις εξής σκέψεις μου: ο χαρακτηρισμός ενός οικοδομικού έργου ως διατηρητέου στηρίζεται, όπως είναι αυτονόητο, στην αναγνώριση της πολιτιστικής σημασίας του, η διαφύλαξη της οποίας υπηρετεί την πολιτιστική μας αυτογνωσία. Ο χαρακτηρισμός, συνεπώς, αυτός δεν μπορεί να αναιρεθεί και να επιτραπεί η κατεδάφιση του κτηρίου, εκτός αν εκ των υστέρων ήθελε κριθεί ειδικά και μόνον ως πολιτιστικά εσφαλμένος. Αν μάλιστα αποτολμηθεί για λόγους πρακτικούς, άσχετους προς το πολιτιστικό νόημά του, τότε εκφράζει πολιτιστική επιπολαιότητα, η οποία συνιστά απαράδεκτη απαξίωση της πολιτιστικής ευαισθησίας μιας κοινωνίας».

Και συνεχίζει ο κ. Μαγκάκης: «Η πρόταση, συνεπώς, του αποχαρακτηρισμού των δύο κτηρίων της οδού Διονυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου είναι πολιτιστικά απαράδεκτη, η οποία, αν αποτολμηθεί, θα συνιστά πολύ κακή περίπτωση άσκησης της κρατικής εξουσίας. Ο λόγος δε που προβάλλεται, συγκεκριμένα ότι έτσι οι θαμώνες του αναψυκτηρίου του νέου μουσείου θα έχουν καλύτερη θέα προς την Ακρόπολη, είναι αληθινά ταπεινωτικός.

Η εθνική πολιτιστική ευαισθησία μας επιβάλλει, συνεπώς, ανυποχώρητο σεβασμό προς τα δύο διατηρητέα κτήρια, τα γειτονικά στο νέο μουσείο της Ακρόπολης.

Πρέπει, άλλωστε, να τονιστεί ότι στην πολιτιστική υπόσταση και, συνεπώς, και στην κληρονομιά μιας κοινωνίας και ενός έθνους δεν ανήκουν μόνον οι καλλιτεχνικά μεγάλες επιτεύξεις, αλλά και τα μεστά αισθητικού νοήματος, σεμνά δείγματα της ιστορικής πορείας ενός λαού. Πολύτιμα στοιχεία αυτής ακριβώς της πορείας στο κοντινό μας παρελθόν συνιστούν τα δύο νεοκλασικά κτήρια».

Ο κ. Μαγκάκης παραδέχεται, όμως, ότι κάτι πρέπει να γίνει με την πίσω όψη των κτηρίων, που δεν είναι ανάλογης ομορφιάς και αισθητικής με την μπροστινή. Γράφει: «Αυτό όμως που μπορεί και επιβάλλεται να γίνει είναι ο εξωραϊσμός της πίσω όψης των κτηρίων αυτών, η οποία βλέπει προς το νέο μουσείο και η οποία, σύμφωνα με τη νεοελληνική τακτική μας, έχει "στολιστεί" με τις σχετικές "σκάλες υπηρεσίας" και διευκολύνει την "κίνηση της κουζίνας", αποτελώντας έτσι μιαν απαράδεκτη αλλά ευτυχώς επανορθώσιμη ασχήμια, εχθρική και προς το πολιτιστικό νόημα του ίδιου του κτηρίου στο οποίο ανήκει».




KAI


ΚΑΘΗΜΕΡΙΝΗ 11/7/07

Ο ανεξάρτητος βουλευτής Επικρατείας κ. Στέφανος Μάνος έστειλε στην «Κ» το ακόλουθο σχόλιο σχετικά με τα χαρακτηρισμένα ως διατηρητέα κτίρια της Διονυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου:

«Το 1978 ως υφυπουργός Δημοσίων Εργων στην κυβέρνηση Κ. Καραμανλή χαρακτήρισα διατηρητέα τα κτίρια της οδού Διονυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου με αριθμό 17 έως 39 και απαγόρευσα κάθε εμπορική χρήση (μαγαζιά τουριστικών ειδών κ.λπ.). Λίγο αργότερα κίνησα διαδικασία για την αποκατάσταση των όψεων των κτιρίων αυτών. Το αποτέλεσμα των επεμβάσεων είναι ορατό. Η Διονυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου σε συνδυασμό και με τη μεταγενέστερη πεζοδρόμησή της είναι ένα αθηναϊκό κόσμημα. Το 1978 ελάχιστοι εκτιμούσαν την ανάγκη διατήρησης της αρχιτεκτονικής κληρονομιάς. Οι αποφάσεις μου προκάλεσαν θύελλα διαμαρτυριών «επωνύμων» ιδιοκτητών. Η Διονυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου έγινε κόσμημα, αλλά εγώ τιμωρήθηκα εκλογικά από τους Αθηναίους γι’ αυτήν και άλλες «θρασείες» επεμβάσεις μου στην ιδιοκτησία. Στις εφημερίδες διάβασα ότι το ΚΑΣ αποφάσισε την κατεδάφιση των δύο πρώτων διατηρητέων με αριθμό 17 και 19, επειδή κρύβουν τη θέα (από ή προς το Μουσείο, δεν γνωρίζω) του νέου Μουσείου της Ακρόπολης. Αν κατάλαβα καλά καθοριστική υπήρξε η ψήφος του γενικού γραμματέα του υπουργείου Πολιτισμού.

Δεν αντιλαμβάνεται ο αφελής εκπρόσωπος της Πολιτείας ότι ο αποχαρακτηρισμός διατηρητέων -ιδίως όταν έχουν περάσει πολλά χρόνια από τον χαρακτηρισμό τους- υπονομεύει συνολικά τον θεσμό της διατήρησης; Δεν αντιλαμβάνεται ότι εφεξής όσοι έχουν διατηρητέα θα ψάχνουν να βρουν πρόσχημα για να απαλλαγεί η ιδιοκτησία τους από το βάρος της διατήρησης μια και η διατήρηση δεν έχει πια μόνιμο χαρακτήρα; Οπως συμβαίνει π.χ. με τα δάση που χαρακτηρίζονται ή αποχαρακτηρίζονται ανάλογα με το χρηματικό διακύβευμα. Αλλά και πέραν αυτής της παρατήρησης, εξ όσων γνωρίζω, ο αρχιτεκτονικός διαγωνισμός για το Μουσείο της Ακρόπολης ζητούσε από τους διαγωνιζόμενους να διαμορφώσουν την πρότασή τους, λαμβάνοντας υπόψη τους τα διατηρητέα κτίρια. Αν γνώριζαν ότι τα διατηρητέα δεν είναι και... τόσο διατηρητέα θα είχαν ασφαλώς κάνει διαφορετικές προτάσεις».

Thank for calling these buildings mine...but they are not mine..wish they were!
What is "mine" is this city though, my family has been living here since the late 19th century and I feel this place as my own, I suffer for all that it has suffered and continues to suffer. I have not made any youtube videos. In fact, I saw that video and, although I agreed with the issue of preserving the buildings, I wrote to its producer criticizing the fact that he paints a very negative image of Athens.

My propaganda is not against my city. It's against all those who "raped" it and continue to do so. I love Athens - I hate those who destroy it. Typical post-war Greek attitude: they talk too much about history, know little about it and do nothing to protect it. As an architect said, there is no other country that talks so much about its past but so destroys it so systematically at the same time. Because there's more to the past than the 5th century BC

Yes, it's totally third world to consider only the ancient ruins as "national heritage". If you had travelled anywhere, you would have known that. Even in ultra-modern Berlin they are considering rebuilding their castle..

I am trying to understand your quote "they can use them to make exactly the same buildings as it happens to all over the worldwhen it is necessary to be demolished some buildings....also they dont seem to care for our national heritage by puttilg AC boxes and build the back verands of the buildigs to make bigger rooms,,," ...and the only conclusion I can draw is, again, that you have not seen many other capitals. Yes, AC boxes are at the back. Where would you like them to be? The top floor addition was made in 1949 legally as far as I know. If this is not the case, of course it should be removed - it's invisible from the front anyway,so it offers nothing to the fascade of the building. Of course I agree trees would look better that buildings' backsides. That's why I propose to plant many trees and hide the backsides from view . The result will be the same as with the demolition.


In the mid-19th centrury, the same people that build the lovely neoclassical buildings, deemed it appropriate to demolish dozens of Byzantine churches, as they thought that medieval architecture had no place in a "modern" city. A similar rationale, 100 years later, led to the replacement of most neoclassical buildings by modernist structures in the international style in the '50s and '60s. Now, we are protecting most neoclassical buildings (with the exception of No 19...), but we are demolishing inter-war gems such as the one on 17, and we are actually expanding out destructive activity on post-war modernism, destroying the wonderful Xenias of the '60s. When is this going to stop?
Athens has produced wonderful architecture in the last 180 years, but most of it gets "recycled" before a century passes. And the only thing that's left intact are the ancient ruins. This makes this city, the most ancient capital of Europe, look historically hollow. And it's a pity.

Beautifully written, logical and sensitive. I agree 100%.

ELLIN,

We've already discussed this before: the backs of those buildings are not meant to be seen. They were probably originally hidden by other neoclassical/art nouveau buildings on that city block. All the buildings on the city block have their backs turned to each other, so from the street, you never see the backs of those buildings. If you visit the historical early-20th century areas of Chicago (the city where currently I live), or if you visit most of Paris (a city where I have lived in the past), all the buildings there are the same: attractive facades, but ugly back sides.

AAL makes a lot of very good points: in post-WWII Greece, there was a complete disregard for Greek history after the 5th century BC. And that mentality persists today, albeit to a lesser extent. Luckily, not all cities in Greece suffered the same destructive fate as Athens: cities like Kastoria, Ermoupoli, Nafplio, and Kerkyra have managed to preserve almost all their historical architecture. Even Thessaloniki has managed to preserve more of its historical architecture than Athens (early 20th century architecture, as well as the old city)...but none of these beautiful cities are ever promoted in EOT literature, because it's not from 500 BC. It's that mentality that if it's not from 500 BC, then it's not history, and tourists are not interested in it. Actually, tourists are interested in far more than just ancient ruins; they also like pleasant, attractive cities. There's a reason that Athens struggles to attract tourists despite the fact that the number of tourist arrivals to Greece has skyrocketed. The majority of tourists to Greece don't visit Athens. That should be a cue. Athens has by far the most impressive and best-preserved ruins from the Classical era, but only a minority of tourists to Greece actually visit Athens, and those who do visit Athens only stay long anough to catch a bus/ferry/flight out of Athens to the islands and the countryside. Why? Because much of Athens is not a pleasant, attractive city.

In many ways, Athens has a lot more in common with American cities than with other European cities. Here in the US, there's a similar disregard for history. There's this distorted notion that the US is a "young country" that "has no real history" and "looks forward". In the 1940s and 1950s, there was a shift in urban design towards automobile-centric city planning, influenced by a famous city-planner of the time, Robert Moses. Along with the car-centric city came the destruction of countless Victorian-era, neoclassical, and art nouveau buildings from the 19th and early 20th centuries. Cities were gutted and motorways were built right through city centers; public mass transit systems were neglected or even taken apart. Cities fell into decay, and a nasty suburban sprawl began. One of America's most historic cities, Boston, was gutted in such a manner when I95 motorway was built right through the historic city center, destroying many Colonial buildings from the 17th and 18th centuries!! It split the city center in half, and there was no cohesion whatsoever between the northern part of the historical area, and the southern part. (Now, we're spending billions of dollars to repair this damage with the Big Dig project, where I95 will run underground). In Los Angeles, the city's extensive light rail lines were taken apart, and motorways were built crisscrossing the city. (Now, Los Angeles is trying to reconstruct an urban rail system). By the 1960s and 1970s, the public started to protest against this destructive car-centric planning. There were even once plans to gut Manhattan with 2 planned motorways to run across the island connecting Brooklyn/Queens directly with New Jersey. One of these motorways was supposed to cut right through historic SoHo and Village! There were even once plans to send a motorway through New Orleans' historic French Quarter! But the public protested and thankfully these horrid projects were stopped. Today, you see historic buildings and neighboorhods in New York, Chicago, Boston, etc, being restored and renovated. But even today, a lot of that disregard for history lingers.

As for the new Acropolis museum, I like the design, but it does -ironically- kind of distract from the Acropolis. Now, I do feel that modern buildings can be well-integrated in a more traditional environment. Modern buildings don't always clash with their traditional neighbors; many times a modern building looks really nice between two attractive historical buildings. However, I'm concerned with the big black blob that the Acropolic musuem looks like, when you are looking down from the Acropolis. In any case, Bernard Tschumi, being a world-renowned architect, should have taken these two buildings (on Dionysiou Aeropagitou) into consideration when designing his musuem. But he didn't.

Previously, the idea to move the buildings to another location was dismissed.

Why? All over the world it is done very often, and not as difficult as might be imagined. The truth is that I am internally conflicted over this controversy. I want the buildings saved, but I also want them gone from their present location.

Buildings that are far more complex (with all four sides being nicely detailed and also the interiors) have been moved across oceans. WHY can't these be moved a kilometer or two? Certainly somewhere there is a junky building or unattractive space where they could be reconstructed.
There is no need to smash them, but they have to go from that spot in front of the museum. It's a bizzarre arrangement in the current form!:nuts:

The front of the buildings are nice, and warrant the salvation of the structures, but the backsides are a horrible visual counterpoint to the lovely acropolis hovering above. An unfortunate juxtaposition, and a bad visual composition. Although you can still see most of the acropolis, the view is tarnished. Hiding them with trees as camouflage is not sufficient.

Just move them.

To move them will cost too much that no one will pay anyway. Pick a side, don't half back removal in the hope they will be moved, I am telling you 100%, in Athens Greece, these buildings will never be moved. Only destroyed or left alone. Those are the only two reality based finalities.

Finally to anyone who hasn't been to other European Cities, IE, London, Rome, Barcelona, Paris ect. The back of these buildings is always plain, it does not affect their merit as buildings or their value. The backs were not badly designed, they were never meant to be seen.

I have to dissagre again..first of all Latvia made a whole new sqaure in the sqaure of Riga with its past midleages buildings...they can do the same with these buildings...their backs are not ugly only cause porbably would happen this about the neoclassical buildings as you mention,but are not painted,not well kept,and also they have illegal structures as some AC boxes and a build little veranda...
There are speciall boxes that can hide ACs but residents seems not to care....
as for now....
these buildings need to be demolish ,and at last the main reason seems that there is no solution with these awful backs.,....the trees and the other methods you mention wil not affect...it would be more funny ..cause it would be something a hidden part...furthermore the trees must be grown up....something that needs year even f they find big trees....
I have to say that your sensitive way and your explanations about youtube are tottaly understandtable from me.....
but even if im sorry for the demolish....it is necessary cause the free space in front of the museum will improve tottaly the whole enviroment of the museum...will actually give the option of a landmark and not a modern building that it is closed from several others.....the free space bettwen the new museum and the dionisiou aeropagitou,that also will connect as a touchment with the are of the acropolis rock will tottaly give a new dimension of the museum as a building.......

It will also give a new dimension to the Acropolis: a smaller one. For the first time in 2500 years, the Parthenon will not be the dominant figure in the area. Another modern Greek achievement.
As for the backsides, all backsides facing backyards are like that, please travel around Europe and have a look..

AAL I have travelled to Europe and generally in the world more than you can imagine...if you travel to Europe you know that the places that repsect their architecture as Paris,Brussels,Amsterdam will never put AC boxes or build verandas to make bigger spaces,and will never keep the conditon of the buildings like this at number 19 in such bad condition....
In colclusion ????They would not be exited from any of those buildings at all...and in need of museums like the Luvre or Vaan gong would have demolish these buildings immediatelly..
As for the smaller dimension you said seems that you havent even study a little the schedule of the museum,the people that dont like it they are saying that they would like something bigger,something more excited,the minimal character of the museum is exactly not to take any glory from the acropolis monuments..if we continue to think like that Athens will have no future in architecture...After several posts at last you express your opinion against the museum,the buildings is the way to express it...I love neoclassic buildings ,,,and allways try to protect them ,i have been in fight in Plaka when i saw youths painting with graffiti the historic buildings something that most of the people wouldnt like to be involved at all.....
We respect our keen to be allways against ,nothing else..

AAL I have travelled to Europe and generally in the world more than you can imagine...if you travel to Europe you know that the places that repsect their architecture as Paris,Brussels,Amsterdam will never put AC boxes or build verandas to make bigger spaces

Firstly, by your posts I do not believe you have traveled around Europe, I am sorry.

And secondly. look at this AC Box as you call it Ellin, in the top right and fire hose in the bottom left!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/61/208195731_2f4ef16892_b.jpg

I have to agree with Reaper...

Plus, I would not hesitate saying that I don't like the museum if I didn't...but I do! The view of the museum against the Acropolis from Hatzichristou or Makrigianni is breathtaking, and the contrast with the Acropolis very successful.

But D. Areopagitou is a totally different story. If you don't see it after all this discussion, I am afraid I cannot make you see it.

As for the future of Athenian architecture - it should develop with reallytall buildings in the outskirts of the city. There is a special thread for that, and the current law that stops anything taller than 27 meters being built is ridiculous. We should be able to build new landmarks in Mesogeion, Kifisias, Kavalas...tall buildings with a bold architecture and wide green spaces between them. Instead, we are filling these new areas with miserable low-rise buildings, and at the same time we decide to demolish D. Areopagitou. It's total madness.

Save these brilliant buildings. These back sides will be the new icon of Greece...Don't let the visitors of the new museum to see the ugly structure called Parthenon behind these buildings..:ohno::ohno::ohno:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2093/1697780564_f71fe4fb45_o.jpg

First of all,we rapidelly minimize the level of the forum saying i dont believe you etc.....second i will not use Spain or Italy like countries which respect their architecture as they could,this photo is a bad example ...and the countrieS i use (Holland,Belgium,France) is not Spain,Italy,Greece......
I repeat that for the musuem of the Luvre and Vaangong or Ritz museum they would have demolished 30 of those buildings.....for Paris this uoldings is not something special...for Athens unfortunately it is.......they dont destroy the view????
take also one photo more........
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1696590889_364f5becef_o.jpg
AAL we are not alone in this country trying to say that we have travel abroad and we know better...
or i have stayed for months at Barcelona and im the genius cause I could use also my experience in travels and making fun....your problem is not the demolish of these buildings...you just dont like the New Acropolis Museum,but we are not going to make you the favour to demolish..; ).sorry....you like it or not we have done it and now its time to preserve our culture.....
persons like you use the british museum to prove their negativity for the returning of the marbels
"tall buildings with a bold architecture and wide green spaces between them"
congratulations finally we agree.....centre of Athens is an other story.....

In Greece we have entirely lost the sense of proportion...Suddenly everybody is sensitive about Athens architectural heritage! Of course the pillars of this heritage are the two buildings of D. Areopagitou! Athens will be suddenly such a poor city after these two buildings are gone!
Lets get serious! Do you want to talk about our architectural & cultural heritage? Go and click "Photos of Old Athens" thread! Each time I see these pictures from the late 19nth early 2oth century, tears burst into my eyes! But, I know now, that nobody has the power to undo the crimes of the 1950-70ies! We need to respect our heritage but also we have to move on forward ahead and create the marvels of our own generation!
If Pericles in 480 B.C. was thinking the way modern-day, post-communist, rusty-minded and bittered greek leftists think, Acropolis itself would've never been built, because it would "damage the pre-persian wars Athenian heritage!".
Thank god, he was so smarter than his modern-day offsprings!

Save these brilliant buildings. These back sides will be the new icon of Greece...Don't let the visitors of the new museum to see the ugly structure called Parthenon behind these buildings..:ohno::ohno::ohno:



Poor dears, maybe they will just have to look at the parthenon a few steps before the museum to get the parthenon view? :ohno: Maybe the poor tourists will not cry on the porch of the museum looking scared going 'where is the Parthenon? Where is it? Oh My God? It has disappeared, shame on Greece'. Or maybe they will not turn back and just walk from the museum entrance straight into the actual museum? :uh: Maybe they might actually visit the the Akropolis to see it in the flesh!? :uh: Maybe they could just see it from the gallery in the museum they are supposed to? :uh: :uh: Maybe they can actually look at the acropolis all the way along Dionysiou Aeropagitou like the rest of us? Hold here is an idea. Maybe they can actually visit the Akropolis and not rely on 1 view from the new museum porch! :uh: If not they can just walk a couple of meters to Dionysiou Aeropagitou and see it anyway. You are right, these tourists will never do this! They will change their habits of the last 2000 years and gauge the acropolis only from the newly built museum porch where they buy their tickets and will carefully avoid looking at the boring city underneath the museum, it will be hard, but i am sure if they wear horse eye guards they can miss all the other visuals of the new museum the architect has made to keep people interested!

http://www.lmstudios.us/sitebuilder/images/VaticanCity-Horse-375x254.jpg

I am surprised nobody has proposed we demolish the Parliament...it blocks the view of the Acropolis from the first floor of the Athens Hilton...

Demetrius, not "suddenly". but gradually people have become sensitive about architectural heritage. This is a good thing. If people were so sensitive 50 years ago, Athens would be one of the prettiest cities on the planet.
Your mentality was the prevailing one in the '50s-'70s. Now that the tide has turned, we must and we will make a fuss about every single architecturally interesting building that is in danger.

...and the countrieS i use (Holland,Belgium,France) is not Spain,Italy,Greece......


Netherlands, Belgium, France, Italy, and Spain have all managed to preserve much more of their historical architecture than Greece.


If Pericles in 480 B.C. was thinking the way modern-day, post-communist, rusty-minded and bittered greek leftists think, Acropolis itself would've never been built, because it would "damage the pre-persian wars Athenian heritage!".


Pericles didn't have a choice; Athens was left in ruins by the Persians.

I am surprised nobody has proposed we demolish the Parliament...it blocks the view of the Acropolis from the first floor of the Athens Hilton...


:lol: I'd rather they demolish the Hilton! (Yet ANOTHER ugly 1960s/1970s monstrosity)

Unfortunately, the way I see it, we don't have a choice but to demolish the buildings. I place most blame on the design of the museum, which didn't originally take these buildings into consideration. In this day and age, when architects and city planners are increasingly taking urban harmony into consideration when designing new spaces, and are increasingly aiming for sustainable development, I'm grossly disappointed at the design of this museum which is a step in the wrong direction. I'm not sure if it's Bernard Tschumi to blame, or if the state is to blame for perhaps not allowing Tschumi to design his museum around these buildings (maybe making the museum a floor higher, so that people can look at the Acropolis, without the ugly back sides of those buildings being in the way -and in fact they could be hidden altogether.)

I am surprised nobody has proposed we demolish the Parliament...it blocks the view of the Acropolis from the first floor of the Athens Hilton...

Demetrius, not "suddenly". but gradually people have become sensitive about architectural heritage. This is a good thing. If people were so sensitive 50 years ago, Athens would be one of the prettiest cities on the planet.
Your mentality was the prevailing one in the '50s-'70s. Now that the tide has turned, we must and we will make a fuss about every single architecturally interesting building that is in danger.

But you don't get the larger picture don't you? I do not accept your view that my mentality is the same that prevailed during the 50ies & 60ies. I do not want the buildings to be torn down for the sake of developers or polykatoikies or any private interest whatsoever. I want them to come down for the sake of a beautiful, modern, PUBLIC building, which can become one of the landmarks of modern Athens. This is why I'm talking about proportions. In Athens nothing major happens because neo-greeks are full of complexes. Athens' heritage will not be spared by the preservation of those two buildings who are PRIVATE. For me it is the PUBLIC interest first and the PRIVATE second. If there was a movement to restore neo-classical style in Athens I would be the first to sign the petition-although this could even be critisised by some as an anachronism, I wouldn't care, Athens needs to re-connect with its neoclassical past.
But the case of these two buildings is completely different, it is a special situation: The stakes around Acropolis, its artifacts and its new museum are higher than any private interest. For me these two buildings are the last line of defence for those who did not want the museum itself. And I repeat, this is a matter of Public vs Private interest at the end of the day. As sobering as it might sound.

Previously, the idea to move the buildings to another location was dismissed.

Why? All over the world it is done very often, and not as difficult as might be imagined. The truth is that I am internally conflicted over this controversy. I want the buildings saved, but I also want them gone from their present location.

Buildings that are far more complex (with all four sides being nicely detailed and also the interiors) have been moved across oceans. WHY can't these be moved a kilometer or two? Certainly somewhere there is a junky building or unattractive space where they could be reconstructed.
There is no need to smash them, but they have to go from that spot in front of the museum. It's a bizzarre arrangement in the current form!:nuts:

The front of the buildings are nice, and warrant the salvation of the structures, but the backsides are a horrible visual counterpoint to the lovely acropolis hovering above. An unfortunate juxtaposition, and a bad visual composition. Although you can still see most of the acropolis, the view is tarnished. Hiding them with trees as camouflage is not sufficient.

Just move them. My sentiments exactly!! They moved Captain Cook's entire house from England to Australia in the 1930's The buildings are worth saving, but the site is inappropriate for them now, JUST MOVE THEM and create a WIIN-WIN situation...

I am surprised nobody has proposed we demolish the Parliament...it blocks the view of the Acropolis from the first floor of the Athens Hilton...

Demetrius, not "suddenly". but gradually people have become sensitive about architectural heritage. This is a good thing. If people were so sensitive 50 years ago, Athens would be one of the prettiest cities on the planet.
Your mentality was the prevailing one in the '50s-'70s. Now that the tide has turned, we must and we will make a fuss about every single architecturally interesting building that is in danger.

when we are off of logical ideas we start to make fun.......
All the time words like shame to Greece and all this negative psychology and comments.....
we are dissagree on something and we blaim our country.....and all the others europeans are better than us......
Someone wrote that Italy was preserving beter its buildings....sorry but Rome had more grafities than Athens and it is really rare to see a well renovated building in the centre of Rome..most of the buildings havent be refreshed for decades......in Athens at still we have a whole programm called prosopsi.....
If you actually have nothing to improve in your country and allways the others are better why you are not go abroad and leave the barbarians to demolish these buildings.....you actually make a lot of noise without a reason.......this buildings have to be demlishes cause they ruin the new acropolis museum view.....and their backs are the wrost...
if their owners love these buildings so much they can rebuild them somewhere else....but noone mention that .....it is silly to say that they cant ....they can build the same and even better than these...

Ellin, how old are you?

Ellin, how old are you?

Reaper-strain what you want to prove by asking this???
you make me really suspicious?????:old:

You are not stupid, infact at times very well informed. But the way you suspect members on here of being anti hellenic because they like or dislike certain buildings is very immature.

There are indeed greeks born in the diaspora who have huge complexes about Greece and infact take comfort in its faults, but they are very few, I have only met one on this forum. 99.9% of Greeks on here, where ever they are from, adore Greece with all their hearts, many would even give their lives for this small nation. So far every Greek you have questioned for being 'negative' I can vouch for as members who have no interest in hurting Greece in any form, the opposite. They go out their way to promote Greece. If Greece builds something bad, or knocks down something good, we will say, not to be negative and make bad sentiment, but to protect Greece.

Besides your attack on those for the buildings infront of the Akropolis Museum, the Tourism thread explains a lot. A member came on and offered advice. What did you do? Tell him what we are already doing or have and question him on the thread purpose. He knew all the places you mentioned probably but was just trying to help and it went right over your head you are so ready to defend something no one in here is trying to attack. All I am saying to you, is before you make a post, think. Is this member posting to damage Greece? To make a negative aspect of Greece? or is he just giving an honest opinion of what he thinks will improve the country to the maximum.

Netherlands, Belgium, France, Italy, and Spain have all managed to preserve much more of their historical architecture than Greece.



Pericles didn't have a choice; Athens was left in ruins by the Persians.



:lol: I'd rather they demolish the Hilton! (Yet ANOTHER ugly 1960s/1970s monstrosity)

Unfortunately, the way I see it, we don't have a choice but to demolish the buildings. I place most blame on the design of the museum, which didn't originally take these buildings into consideration. In this day and age, when architects and city planners are increasingly taking urban harmony into consideration when designing new spaces, and are increasingly aiming for sustainable development, I'm grossly disappointed at the design of this museum which is a step in the wrong direction. I'm not sure if it's Bernard Tschumi to blame, or if the state is to blame for perhaps not allowing Tschumi to design his museum around these buildings (maybe making the museum a floor higher, so that people can look at the Acropolis, without the ugly back sides of those buildings being in the way -and in fact they could be hidden altogether.)
Well, I have to say I disagree. The Athens Hilton is probably the best-looking one in the world and a fine example of mid-century architecture. I would like to see it protected as a listed building. Architecture did not stop in 1930. Although I'm sure some people here believe that I believe so! But progress does not mean destroying the past; progress means going forward while respecting the past. This "subtle" difference escapes the attention of all the pro-demolishing lobbyists...

As for the Museum, IT DID take the buildings into account, look at the scaled representations of the project. The museum was allowed extra height exactly for the purpose of viewing the Acropolis over the rooftops. And it does. STE gave a building permit WITH THE PROVISO that the buildings will stay there. Tschumi is a world-class name, you cannot seriously believe he miscalculated by a few meters! Everything was carefully planned and the whole issue was solved, until they discovered the cafeteria will be loosing revenue...

when we are off of logical ideas we start to make fun.......
All the time words like shame to Greece and all this negative psychology and comments.....
we are dissagree on something and we blaim our country.....and all the others europeans are better than us......
Someone wrote that Italy was preserving beter its buildings....sorry but Rome had more grafities than Athens and it is really rare to see a well renovated building in the centre of Rome..most of the buildings havent be refreshed for decades......in Athens at still we have a whole programm called prosopsi.....
If you actually have nothing to improve in your country and allways the others are better why you are not go abroad and leave the barbarians to demolish these buildings.....you actually make a lot of noise without a reason.......this buildings have to be demlishes cause they ruin the new acropolis museum view.....and their backs are the wrost...
if their owners love these buildings so much they can rebuild them somewhere else....but noone mention that .....it is silly to say that they cant ....they can build the same and even better than these...
Ellin, with every post you reveal more....you certainly have not been to Rome. Who cares if the paint is fresh or not? Do you think "prosopsi" will make Athens look like Rome? Rome is like a huge museum. Every single house, church, every building is worth looking at . Ten blocks in Rome contain more beautiful buildings than all of Athens.

The thing is, THIS is my country and THIS is my city and the city of my ancestors; the barbarians have arrived here since many decades and are systematically tearing apart. Athens could be like Rome's little sister, if all these barbarians hadn't arrived. I once started watching a movie from the early '50s on TV, and I thought it was Italian and filmed in Rome...then they started speaking Greek, and I realized it was in Athens. That was 55 years ago...today, you can no longer make this mistake! Why? Because we've destroyed 8 out of 10 neoclassical buildings in this city. It's the same story 50 years on now: all they respect in this country is the ancient ruins. No respect for anything else, as if we Greeks don't exist, as if the Greeks are an ancient extinct race.
Spare me the patriotic speech; a real patriot is a person who does not want his/her country's cultural heritage destroyed over a tourist venture. People with this mentality have undermined Greece and especially Athens for decades.

But you don't get the larger picture don't you? I do not accept your view that my mentality is the same that prevailed during the 50ies & 60ies. I do not want the buildings to be torn down for the sake of developers or polykatoikies or any private interest whatsoever. I want them to come down for the sake of a beautiful, modern, PUBLIC building, which can become one of the landmarks of modern Athens. This is why I'm talking about proportions. In Athens nothing major happens because neo-greeks are full of complexes. Athens' heritage will not be spared by the preservation of those two buildings who are PRIVATE. For me it is the PUBLIC interest first and the PRIVATE second. If there was a movement to restore neo-classical style in Athens I would be the first to sign the petition-although this could even be critisised by some as an anachronism, I wouldn't care, Athens needs to re-connect with its neoclassical past.
But the case of these two buildings is completely different, it is a special situation: The stakes around Acropolis, its artifacts and its new museum are higher than any private interest. For me these two buildings are the last line of defence for those who did not want the museum itself. And I repeat, this is a matter of Public vs Private interest at the end of the day. As sobering as it might sound.
"The stakes around Acropolis, its artifacts and its new museum are higher than any private interest"
No. The Acropolis does not benefit from the removal of the buildings. The Museum cafeteria does. So ,yes, there is a conflict between private an public interest...The public interest has to do with the people's appreciation of late 19th and early century architecture, and the private interest with the business of the cafeteria. But anyway, most people will probably prefer Dionysus; let's face it, demolition or not, it has a much better view..

Once again, I do not need an excuse to cover up my imaginary dislike of the museum. If I did not like it, I would just say so.
As far as I am concerned the museum is great, and one of its merits is that it was designed to look spectacular from all three sides, but be invisible from D.Areopagitou.

ΑΑL I HAVE BEEN to Rome and i didnt like it at all.....i wouldnt say that i didnt like Paris cause was just amazing but Rome a big NO.......
Read what lucretious from stadia wrote about these buildngs on his visit to the museum
Σχετικά με τα κτίρια της Αρεοπαγίτου, από την επίσκεψή μου στον χώρο, πείστηκα ότι δεν διακόπτουν τόσο τη θέα από την ταράτσα της εισόδου (ή για να το θέσω καλύτερα ενοχλούν αρκετά αλλά η θέα αποζημιώνει για τις πίσω όψεις τους) όσο από το ισόγειο, το μεσοπάτωμα (μεταπαρθενώνια) και εν μέρει από την αίθουσα του Παρθενώνα. Από την άλλη, από ότι είπε η αρχαιολόγος που μας ξενάγησε, διατηρητέες είναι μόνο οι όψεις των κτιρίων, ενώ και τα δύο τους έχουν από ένα πανωσηκωματάκι. Ειδικά ο Vangelis έφτιαξε ολάκερο roof garden στον αυθαίρετό του όροφο, ενώ ένα ευρύχωρο ρετιρέ (στεγασμένο με ελενίτ παρακαλώ) προστέθηκε στη δημιουργία του Κουρεμένου, προφανώς γιατί τα μπαλκονάκια στην όψη ήταν πολύ μικρά για να μπορούν να πίνουν τον καφέ τους με θέα την ακρόπολη. Ακόμη, η πίσω όψη του κτιρίου Κουρεμένου (τον οποίο παρεμπιπτόντως – αν και πιστεύω ότι γνωρίζω αρκετά πράγματα πάνω στην νεοελληνική αρχιτεκτονική – άκουσα για πρώτη φορά με αφορμή τη συζήτηση για τα δυο κτίρια) ήταν σε οικτρή κατάσταση επί αρκετά χρόνια και μόνο όταν ακούστηκε ότι θα κινηθούν οι διαδικασίες για την κατεδάφιση του αξιώθηκαν οι υψηλοί ένοικοί του να ξοδευτούν και να το σουλουπώσουν.............

AAL really glad that you havent mention all these...as i have wrote in previous posts you have a really negative mentality on the issue we say NO to everything!!!1

ELLIN,

I haven't been posting on these boards very long, and I haven't come across any of AAL's posts until recently. But I find myself agreeing with 95% of what AAL says. Everything I have always felt, everything I have noticed, everything I have observed, it's as if AAL can read my mind. I too have long felt that in modern-day Greece, there's a disregard for all Greek history after the Classical era. Only the 5th century BC (and earlier) is worth preserving. If it's from the Roman Era, the Venetian Era, the Frankish Era, the Ottoman Era, the 18th century, the 19th century, the early 20th century, and -to a lesser extent- the Byzantine Era, a lot of Greeks don't really care for it. But thankfully, there's a growing awareness among Greeks for other periods in their nation's long and glorious history. But for many people, that mentality lingers. Take a look at how new churches are built in Greece nowadays: wealthy donors will pour money into an assembly-line pseudo-Byzantine church that has exaggerated features and looks terrible (and is named after the donor's patron saint), instead of investing their money in the restoration of decaying neoclassical buildings. Now, I understand that a lot of surviving neoclassical buildings HAVE been restored after 1985...but the fact that some poeple would still rather pour their money into building churches (or monasteries) boggles my mind, because Greece already has enough churches! (and monasteries!)

Now, I've always felt that the younger generations in Greece -including you- are far more enlightened than the older generations. You seem young, but I love your spirit defending Greece. Believe me, it's REALLY refreshing to hear Greek people take pride in their amazing country instead of knocking it down all the time. I've always felt that Greeks are incredibly self-critical, and are too hard on themselves sometimes. Some Greeks still have that 1950s "we're a poor country" mentality, and that "life is better abroad". Actually, Greece has made extraordinary advancements in standard of living within such a short time span, and while Greeks work long and hard to make ends meet, Greece is now one of the world's best countries...and life today in the USA (where I currently live) is not as simple and easy as it was 40 years ago when immigrants were able to walk into any factory and find a decent-paying job; we now pay for everything through the nose, our health care and education costs have spiralled out of control, and most of us struggle to maintain a middle-class standard of living. Things change, times change, countries change. And generations become different from their parents and grandparents. It's awesome to see that today's generation in Greece is more interested in neoclassical buildings or Bernard Tschumi or Tombazis...instead of some off-the-shelf monastery that was built 10 years ago (and for which they had to clear 20 acres of precious forest). A few of my old relatives in Greece would rather visit some new monastery that was built in the middle of a precious forest, instead of visiting a gorgeous historic city like Nafplio and going for a stroll. It's very nice to see that today's generation isn't like that. It's VERY nice to see today's generation challenging convention, instead of refraining from eating meat and olive oil for the entire duration of Lent without knowing that the Bible does NOT require Lent. By all means, I'm not knocking our parents' generation...actually they are the ones who started this enlightenment by defying the conventions of their parents' generation (and our parents' parents defied the conventions of their parents' generation). Our generation is just taking it further. And I think that the current young generation, especially people like you, are Greece's best asset, and you make me very optimistic about the country's future.

I think that you have misinterpreted what AAL is trying express. AAL is expressing his (or her) disappointment for Greece's lost architectural heritage. And I feel the same way. I can't even look at pictures of old Athens because I get very angry. WHY was the city destroyed like that? I am even more reminiscent of that era than AAL is; if it were up to me, I would reconstruct lost neoclassical buildings in central Athens (just as they're reconstructing lost churches in Moscow and Saint Petersburg in post-Soviet Russia). I know AAL disagrees with me here. The only point AAL is trying to make is that every generation undoes the architectural achievements of the previous generation, making Athens into a bland, uninteresting city. If it were up to me I would encourage more architects to use neoclassical architecture when building new buildings in central Athens. This is not entirely outrageous. In central Chicago, a LOT of new low-rise buildings (mostly residences) are going up with a retro 19th/early-20th century style...and they look fabulous! Also, if I had the means, I would commission the reconstruction of famous lost neoclassical buildings in central Athens (like the lost Opera house). I've read that in Kerkyra, they're considering re-building a grand neoclassical theater that was bombed in WWII. Why can't Athens do this too? The reality is that Athens has become a monster. The beautiful old Athens was precious, but now it's lost. And while we need to look forward, we also need to make sure that past mistakes are not repeated, and that what remains of the city's historical heritage is preserved and appreciated.

You are not stupid, infact at times very well informed. But the way you suspect members on here of being anti hellenic because they like or dislike certain buildings is very immature.

There are indeed greeks born in the diaspora who have huge complexes about Greece and infact take comfort in its faults, but they are very few, I have only met one on this forum. 99.9% of Greeks on here, where ever they are from, adore Greece with all their hearts, many would even give their lives for this small nation. So far every Greek you have questioned for being 'negative' I can vouch for as members who have no interest in hurting Greece in any form, the opposite. They go out their way to promote Greece. If Greece builds something bad, or knocks down something good, we will say, not to be negative and make bad sentiment, but to protect Greece.

Yes, most Greeks of the diaspora on this forum are good promoters of Greece. Unfortunately some natives are really 'ugly' who are making others dislike Greece and Greeks.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16058288&postcount=16

It's no wonder he thinks nobody likes them...Of course they wouldn't with the type of comments and attitude he conveys!!

ΑΑL I HAVE BEEN to Rome and i didnt like it at all.....i wouldnt say that i didnt like Paris cause was just amazing but Rome a big NO.......
Read what lucretious from stadia wrote about these buildngs on his visit to the museum
Σχετικά με τα κτίρια της Αρεοπαγίτου, από την επίσκεψή μου στον χώρο, πείστηκα ότι δεν διακόπτουν τόσο τη θέα από την ταράτσα της εισόδου (ή για να το θέσω καλύτερα ενοχλούν αρκετά αλλά η θέα αποζημιώνει για τις πίσω όψεις τους) όσο από το ισόγειο, το μεσοπάτωμα (μεταπαρθενώνια) και εν μέρει από την αίθουσα του Παρθενώνα. Από την άλλη, από ότι είπε η αρχαιολόγος που μας ξενάγησε, διατηρητέες είναι μόνο οι όψεις των κτιρίων, ενώ και τα δύο τους έχουν από ένα πανωσηκωματάκι. Ειδικά ο Vangelis έφτιαξε ολάκερο roof garden στον αυθαίρετό του όροφο, ενώ ένα ευρύχωρο ρετιρέ (στεγασμένο με ελενίτ παρακαλώ) προστέθηκε στη δημιουργία του Κουρεμένου, προφανώς γιατί τα μπαλκονάκια στην όψη ήταν πολύ μικρά για να μπορούν να πίνουν τον καφέ τους με θέα την ακρόπολη. Ακόμη, η πίσω όψη του κτιρίου Κουρεμένου (τον οποίο παρεμπιπτόντως – αν και πιστεύω ότι γνωρίζω αρκετά πράγματα πάνω στην νεοελληνική αρχιτεκτονική – άκουσα για πρώτη φορά με αφορμή τη συζήτηση για τα δυο κτίρια) ήταν σε οικτρή κατάσταση επί αρκετά χρόνια και μόνο όταν ακούστηκε ότι θα κινηθούν οι διαδικασίες για την κατεδάφιση του αξιώθηκαν οι υψηλοί ένοικοί του να ξοδευτούν και να το σουλουπώσουν.............

AAL really glad that you havent mention all these...as i have wrote in previous posts you have a really negative mentality on the issue we say NO to everything!!!1
I have a positive mentality when it comes to building the future. I have a negative mentality when it comes to destroying the past.
But if you say you don't like Rome, you have said it all...

ELLIN,

I haven't been posting on these boards very long, and I haven't come across any of AAL's posts until recently. But I find myself agreeing with 95% of what AAL says. Everything I have always felt, everything I have noticed, everything I have observed, it's as if AAL can read my mind. I too have long felt that in modern-day Greece, there's a disregard for all Greek history after the Classical era. Only the 5th century BC (and earlier) is worth preserving. If it's from the Roman Era, the Venetian Era, the Frankish Era, the Ottoman Era, the 18th century, the 19th century, the early 20th century, and -to a lesser extent- the Byzantine Era, a lot of Greeks don't really care for it. But thankfully, there's a growing awareness among Greeks for other periods in their nation's long and glorious history. But for many people, that mentality lingers. Take a look at how new churches are built in Greece nowadays: wealthy donors will pour money into an assembly-line pseudo-Byzantine church that has exaggerated features and looks terrible (and is named after the donor's patron saint), instead of investing their money in the restoration of decaying neoclassical buildings. Now, I understand that a lot of surviving neoclassical buildings HAVE been restored after 1985...but the fact that some poeple would still rather pour their money into building churches (or monasteries) boggles my mind, because Greece already has enough churches! (and monasteries!)

Now, I've always felt that the younger generations in Greece -including you- are far more enlightened than the older generations. You seem young, but I love your spirit defending Greece. Believe me, it's REALLY refreshing to hear Greek people take pride in their amazing country instead of knocking it down all the time. I've always felt that Greeks are incredibly self-critical, and are too hard on themselves sometimes. Some Greeks still have that 1950s "we're a poor country" mentality, and that "life is better abroad". Actually, Greece has made extraordinary advancements in standard of living within such a short time span, and while Greeks work long and hard to make ends meet, Greece is now one of the world's best countries...and life today in the USA (where I currently live) is not as simple and easy as it was 40 years ago when immigrants were able to walk into any factory and find a decent-paying job; we now pay for everything through the nose, our health care and education costs have spiralled out of control, and most of us struggle to maintain a middle-class standard of living. Things change, times change, countries change. And generations become different from their parents and grandparents. It's awesome to see that today's generation in Greece is more interested in neoclassical buildings or Bernard Tschumi or Tombazis...instead of some off-the-shelf monastery that was built 10 years ago (and for which they had to clear 20 acres of precious forest). A few of my old relatives in Greece would rather visit some new monastery that was built in the middle of a precious forest, instead of visiting a gorgeous historic city like Nafplio and going for a stroll. It's very nice to see that today's generation isn't like that. It's VERY nice to see today's generation challenging convention, instead of refraining from eating meat and olive oil for the entire duration of Lent without knowing that the Bible does NOT require Lent. By all means, I'm not knocking our parents' generation...actually they are the ones who started this enlightenment by defying the conventions of their parents' generation (and our parents' parents defied the conventions of their parents' generation). Our generation is just taking it further. And I think that the current young generation, especially people like you, are Greece's best asset, and you make me very optimistic about the country's future.

I think that you have misinterpreted what AAL is trying express. AAL is expressing his (or her) disappointment for Greece's lost architectural heritage. And I feel the same way. I can't even look at pictures of old Athens because I get very angry. WHY was the city destroyed like that? I am even more reminiscent of that era than AAL is; if it were up to me, I would reconstruct lost neoclassical buildings in central Athens (just as they're reconstructing lost churches in Moscow and Saint Petersburg in post-Soviet Russia). I know AAL disagrees with me here. The only point AAL is trying to make is that every generation undoes the architectural achievements of the previous generation, making Athens into a bland, uninteresting city. If it were up to me I would encourage more architects to use neoclassical architecture when building new buildings in central Athens. This is not entirely outrageous. In central Chicago, a LOT of new low-rise buildings (mostly residences) are going up with a retro 19th/early-20th century style...and they look fabulous! Also, if I had the means, I would commission the reconstruction of famous lost neoclassical buildings in central Athens (like the lost Opera house). I've read that in Kerkyra, they're considering re-building a grand neoclassical theater that was bombed in WWII. Why can't Athens do this too? The reality is that Athens has become a monster. The beautiful old Athens was precious, but now it's lost. And while we need to look forward, we also need to make sure that past mistakes are not repeated, and that what remains of the city's historical heritage is preserved and appreciated.
Actually I agree on everything you say, including the reconstruction of old buildings! I believe that different districts should be allowed to retain different styles; so yes, I am all of building skyscrapers in Drapetsona or Kavalas or Kifissias. But at the same time, I 100% support reconstructing at least the most important lost buildings in the centre. As you say the Opera House, Municipal Theatre etc etc. The argument that the reconstructed building is "a lie" is ridiculous: the reconstructed building still conveys all the aesthetical, emotional etc associations that its architect originally intended. The "lie" is only of a technical nature and completely irrelevant to all but a small minority of people interested in it for professional reasons.

I would even go as far as allowing only certain architectural styles in each area: neoclassical in the historical centre, art deco and Bauhaus in Kypseli and Kolonaki, Eames era style in Pangrati and contemporary architecture everywhere else. A committee of architects would decide what can go where. This happened in Aristotelous in Thessaloniki and the result is obviously great.

We should be more conservative in the centre and more bold and daring in the periphery of Athens.
As I said before, I think the Acropolis Museum is great as it is, but it should be an exception for the centre, like the Pompidou in Paris for instance. When the urban fabric is well maintained, such exceptions act as pleasant surprises.

In any case, Athens is a MUCH better place than 20-30 years ago. I think the '70s-'80s were its lowest point aesthetically. In the last few years both the aestetics and the infrastructure of our city has hugely improved and a new optimism has been created for the first time in decades. I believe this can act as a "positive feedback loop" and propel Athens successfully to the future. The positive attitude is the one thing I agree with Ellin about!

Yes, most Greeks of the diaspora on this forum are good promoters of Greece. Unfortunately some natives are really 'ugly' who are making others dislike Greece and Greeks.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16058288&postcount=16

It's no wonder he thinks nobody likes them...Of course they wouldn't with the type of comments and attitude he conveys!!
neorion εχείς τίποτα άλυτα προσωπικά ζητήματα με τον Reaper-strain;

^^ lol...oxi toso sovara...alla pos na to po; Einai ahoniftos se'mena kai polous allous, kai dihnei to ashimo prosopo ton ellina s'auto to forum...mia griniara...:bash:

Άκου αδελφέ, το ssc , το κάθε ssc, η ζωή η ίδια αποτελείτε από ένα σύνολο προσωπικοτήτων. Ενα σύνολο διαφορετικών απόψεων και ιδεών. Τι κάνει την κοινότητα να λειτουργήση αρμονικά; O αλληλοσεβασμός και η αλληλοκατανόηση στην διαφορετικότητα.
Συμπεριφορές όπως η δικιά σου έναντι του Reaper-strain διαταράσουν αυτην την αρμονία.
Σε παρακαλώ λοιπόν να μην ξαναδώ μηνύματα σαν και αυτό (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16082626&postcount=65) γιατί θα έχουμε πρόβλημα.

^^ eipa tipota to kako, kanena psema; :ohno:

I have a positive mentality when it comes to building the future. I have a negative mentality when it comes to destroying the past.
But if you say you don't like Rome, you have said it all...

one place is not only buildings...is the way the people welcomes you....is the comunication,is the level and cleaness of public transport....i dont like Rome i like other places.....AAL i think that you have to be a little openmind....
you just dont seem to answer specific than blaiming all the time......
.....and your democratic level is little bit down if you put the peoples' in the 2 boxes these like Rome these didnt.......
by speaking in a sensitive sense you try to prove something that is not exist.....here we put our logical and our clear eye view...and these 2 say to us...these buildings have been destroyed first from the owners...which want to keep them just for their position,and the New acropolis museum sems not have any breath from its entrance,and have views from their awful backs...where you can see some underpants of the owners wet under the attica sun:lol:
and i will say again////
as allways we greeks we have allways time to find problems....
all the big urban developemnts take place in tis country the last 15 years was a catastrofy for Greece before their operation........exactly the same now....

^^ eipa tipota to kako, kanena psema; :ohno:
Δέν είσαι σε θέση να διακρίνεις το καλό απο το κακό; Τον σεβασμό απο την ασέβεια; Την ευγενή απο την προσβλητική συμπεριφορά;

^^ den katalava, yiati ton ypostirizeis; yiati autos mporei na katakrinei allous prosopika;

ELLIN,

I haven't been posting on these boards very long, and I haven't come across any of AAL's posts until recently. But I find myself agreeing with 95% of what AAL says. Everything I have always felt, everything I have noticed, everything I have observed, it's as if AAL can read my mind. I too have long felt that in modern-day Greece, there's a disregard for all Greek history after the Classical era. Only the 5th century BC (and earlier) is worth preserving. If it's from the Roman Era, the Venetian Era, the Frankish Era, the Ottoman Era, the 18th century, the 19th century, the early 20th century, and -to a lesser extent- the Byzantine Era, a lot of Greeks don't really care for it. But thankfully, there's a growing awareness among Greeks for other periods in their nation's long and glorious history. But for many people, that mentality lingers. Take a look at how new churches are built in Greece nowadays: wealthy donors will pour money into an assembly-line pseudo-Byzantine church that has exaggerated features and looks terrible (and is named after the donor's patron saint), instead of investing their money in the restoration of decaying neoclassical buildings. Now, I understand that a lot of surviving neoclassical buildings HAVE been restored after 1985...but the fact that some poeple would still rather pour their money into building churches (or monasteries) boggles my mind, because Greece already has enough churches! (and monasteries!)

Now, I've always felt that the younger generations in Greece -including you- are far more enlightened than the older generations. You seem young, but I love your spirit defending Greece. Believe me, it's REALLY refreshing to hear Greek people take pride in their amazing country instead of knocking it down all the time. I've always felt that Greeks are incredibly self-critical, and are too hard on themselves sometimes. Some Greeks still have that 1950s "we're a poor country" mentality, and that "life is better abroad". Actually, Greece has made extraordinary advancements in standard of living within such a short time span, and while Greeks work long and hard to make ends meet, Greece is now one of the world's best countries...and life today in the USA (where I currently live) is not as simple and easy as it was 40 years ago when immigrants were able to walk into any factory and find a decent-paying job; we now pay for everything through the nose, our health care and education costs have spiralled out of control, and most of us struggle to maintain a middle-class standard of living. Things change, times change, countries change. And generations become different from their parents and grandparents. It's awesome to see that today's generation in Greece is more interested in neoclassical buildings or Bernard Tschumi or Tombazis...instead of some off-the-shelf monastery that was built 10 years ago (and for which they had to clear 20 acres of precious forest). A few of my old relatives in Greece would rather visit some new monastery that was built in the middle of a precious forest, instead of visiting a gorgeous historic city like Nafplio and going for a stroll. It's very nice to see that today's generation isn't like that. It's VERY nice to see today's generation challenging convention, instead of refraining from eating meat and olive oil for the entire duration of Lent without knowing that the Bible does NOT require Lent. By all means, I'm not knocking our parents' generation...actually they are the ones who started this enlightenment by defying the conventions of their parents' generation (and our parents' parents defied the conventions of their parents' generation). Our generation is just taking it further. And I think that the current young generation, especially people like you, are Greece's best asset, and you make me very optimistic about the country's future.

I think that you have misinterpreted what AAL is trying express. AAL is expressing his (or her) disappointment for Greece's lost architectural heritage. And I feel the same way. I can't even look at pictures of old Athens because I get very angry. WHY was the city destroyed like that? I am even more reminiscent of that era than AAL is; if it were up to me, I would reconstruct lost neoclassical buildings in central Athens (just as they're reconstructing lost churches in Moscow and Saint Petersburg in post-Soviet Russia). I know AAL disagrees with me here. The only point AAL is trying to make is that every generation undoes the architectural achievements of the previous generation, making Athens into a bland, uninteresting city. If it were up to me I would encourage more architects to use neoclassical architecture when building new buildings in central Athens. This is not entirely outrageous. In central Chicago, a LOT of new low-rise buildings (mostly residences) are going up with a retro 19th/early-20th century style...and they look fabulous! Also, if I had the means, I would commission the reconstruction of famous lost neoclassical buildings in central Athens (like the lost Opera house). I've read that in Kerkyra, they're considering re-building a grand neoclassical theater that was bombed in WWII. Why can't Athens do this too? The reality is that Athens has become a monster. The beautiful old Athens was precious, but now it's lost. And while we need to look forward, we also need to make sure that past mistakes are not repeated, and that what remains of the city's historical heritage is preserved and appreciated.


Thank you for your kind words....it is really amazing for me to show people describing much f my character inside a forum.......
Exactly allways blaming,mizery and self critisism.........even if we do good things we allways find mizerable time to blame our country....
all the other cities are the best..Athens a heLl......
i agree that 50 years before when i havent borned it was a mistake to be destroyed all these amazing buildings of the past......but we can not stop the future develop of the city cause some people made this mistake on the past....Athens has the oportunities to be amazing city again....
it has some features that even the most well develop cities of the world will not achieve....
its amazing sea,its unbeatable weather and sun,and it gorgeous landscape....
its peopele..hard people but lively
its oportunities for economic develop are lot.....
Reaper-strain is example of blaiming our city and country all the time.....with a mizerable way....allways have nothing positive to say.......and allways cities abroad are perfect.....
i have more foreingers friends than greeks....friends in AAL paradise Rome and Paris.....go and see their social problems.....especially in Rome where the first amount is 950 euro and the cheapest apartment rental is 1600 euro.........
I havent seen reconstruction programm as acropolis .....im not going to blame other countries to maximize the profil of my own......
AAL and Reaper-strain ..minimize their country..........
if we dnt like something in our city we TAKE ACTION AND WE CHANGE IT TO BETTER!!!!!!!!
We are not blaiming and minimize our city and our country......
afto einai RAGIADISMOS

Άλλα λόγια να αγαπιόμαστε, neorion δεν θα το ξενυχτήσουμε εδώ πέρα, σου είπα κάποια πράγματα, απο εκεί και πέρα κάνε οτι καταλαβαίνεις.

Loipon, thelw na ekfrasw tin gnwmi mou panw s'auto to zitima giati vlepw oti kapoioi edw pera theloune na pane tin sizitisi allou kai anakateuoun tin arxitektoniki edw pera.

Thelw na pw to eksis, sxetika me ta ktiria auta.

Opws oloi kseroun to mouseio auto xtistike meta apo 2,500 xronia kai pisteuw pws emeis oi sugxrwnoi Ellines kaname telika meta apo tosa xronia kati thetiko kai timisame m'auto tous progonous mas kai genikws tin diki mas koultoura.

Kswdepsame tosa ekatomiria gia na ginei auto to mouseio kai twra pou ftanoume pros ta egkainia tou mouseiou exoume provlima giati merikoi theloun na diatirisoun auta ta ktiria ta opoia kata tin gnwmi mou kapote xtistikan paranoma giati edwsan tin adeia oi anegkefaloi politikoi tis tote epoxis.

O idioktites twn ktiriwn theloune na ta diatirisoun auta gia ton polu aplo logw, einai kathara EGWISTES.

Giati an den itan egwistes tha mporousan na kanoun mia thusia gia tin poli tous kai gia tin xwra tous giati den xtizoume stin Ellada tetoia mouseia kathe mera.

Mpravo A.E.K

Thank you for your kind words....it is really amazing for me to show people describing much f my character inside a forum.......
Exactly allways blaming,mizery and self critisism.........even if we do good things we allways find mizerable time to blame our country....
all the other cities are the best..Athens a heLl......
i agree that 50 years before when i havent borned it was a mistake to be destroyed all these amazing buildings of the past......but we can not stop the future develop of the city cause some people made this mistake on the past....Athens has the oportunities to be amazing city again....
it has some features that even the most well develop cities of the world will not achieve....
its amazing sea,its unbeatable weather and sun,and it gorgeous landscape....
its peopele..hard people but lively
its oportunities for economic develop are lot.....
Reaper-strain is example of blaiming our city and country all the time.....with a mizerable way....allways have nothing positive to say.......and allways cities abroad are perfect.....
i have more foreingers friends than greeks....friends in AAL paradise Rome and Paris.....go and see their social problems.....especially in Rome where the first amount is 950 euro and the cheapest apartment rental is 1600 euro.........
I havent seen reconstruction programm as acropolis .....im not going to blame other countries to maximize the profil of my own......
AAL and Reaper-strain ..minimize their country..........
if we dnt like something in our city we TAKE ACTION AND WE CHANGE IT TO BETTER!!!!!!!!
We are not blaiming and minimize our city and our country......
afto einai RAGIADISMOS

OK, "minimize our country" does not mean anything in English, but I see what you mean and it is very insulting. I will not tolerate patriotic lessons from people who want to destroy our artistic heritage. Since when wanting to preserve historic Athenian buildings is anti-patriotic, and wanting to demolish them is patriotic? You've got it all wrong. I said it before, we should be more conservative in the centre and much more daring in the suburbs. Instead, we build miserable 3-4 storey buildings in the suburbs and destroy historic buildings in the centre.If you want to fight for progress, start writing against the ridiculous 27-meter height restrictions. THAT's what's holding our modern architectural production behind, not the two historic buildings in the centre.

"if we dnt like something in our city we TAKE ACTION AND WE CHANGE IT TO BETTER!!!!!!!!" I agree 100%. That's what we are doing in this forum. I care for this place more than you can imagine. My family's been living in central Athens since the late 19th century. You people fighting for demolition think that all there is to Greece is ancient sculptures. It's not true. Greek culture has an uniterrupted presence for 3000 years. Why can't you respect it as a whole?

one place is not only buildings...is the way the people welcomes you....is the comunication,is the level and cleaness of public transport....i dont like Rome i like other places.....AAL i think that you have to be a little openmind....
you just dont seem to answer specific than blaiming all the time......
.....and your democratic level is little bit down if you put the peoples' in the 2 boxes these like Rome these didnt.......
by speaking in a sensitive sense you try to prove something that is not exist.....here we put our logical and our clear eye view...and these 2 say to us...these buildings have been destroyed first from the owners...which want to keep them just for their position,and the New acropolis museum sems not have any breath from its entrance,and have views from their awful backs...where you can see some underpants of the owners wet under the attica sun:lol:
and i will say again////
as allways we greeks we have allways time to find problems....
all the big urban developemnts take place in tis country the last 15 years was a catastrofy for Greece before their operation........exactly the same now....
"as allways we greeks we have allways time to find problems...."

I agree totally. I am 100% against the constant moaning. And I agree on this too "all the big urban developemnts take place in tis country the last 15 years was a catastrofy for Greece before their operation."

But I find that the phrase "as allways we greeks we have allways time to find problems...." applies perfectly to those people who, after years of the museum being designed with the buildings in place, after Tschumi managing it design it so that it co-exists with them, suddenly discover tha must go...

Have we already reached the point where we grab eachother's throat?
Come on, this has been a very interesting, intense discussion. Don't kill it.

Have we already reached the point where we grab eachother's throat?
Come on, this has been a very interesting, intense discussion. Don't kill it.
I agree, but I hope you understand that I cannot accept my views on architectural preservation being treated as an attempt to undermine my own country...

Me neither, he said this of me!

Reaper-strain is example of blaiming our city and country all the time.....with a mizerable way....allways have nothing positive to say.......and allways cities abroad are perfect.

To me that is offensive in the fact that he has resorted to lying when me and AAL have been patient with him and tried to explain to him that me saying Barcelona is better at tourism than Athens, or that old buildings in the centre of Athens should not be so easily demolished is not anti-hellenic.

Actually I agree on everything you say, including the reconstruction of old buildings! I believe that different districts should be allowed to retain different styles; so yes, I am all of building skyscrapers in Drapetsona or Kavalas or Kifissias. But at the same time, I 100% support reconstructing at least the most important lost buildings in the centre. As you say the Opera House, Municipal Theatre etc etc. The argument that the reconstructed building is "a lie" is ridiculous: the reconstructed building still conveys all the aesthetical, emotional etc associations that its architect originally intended. The "lie" is only of a technical nature and completely irrelevant to all but a small minority of people interested in it for professional reasons.

I would even go as far as allowing only certain architectural styles in each area: neoclassical in the historical centre, art deco and Bauhaus in Kypseli and Kolonaki, Eames era style in Pangrati and contemporary architecture everywhere else. A committee of architects would decide what can go where. This happened in Aristotelous in Thessaloniki and the result is obviously great.

We should be more conservative in the centre and more bold and daring in the periphery of Athens.
As I said before, I think the Acropolis Museum is great as it is, but it should be an exception for the centre, like the Pompidou in Paris for instance. When the urban fabric is well maintained, such exceptions act as pleasant surprises.

In any case, Athens is a MUCH better place than 20-30 years ago. I think the '70s-'80s were its lowest point aesthetically. In the last few years both the aestetics and the infrastructure of our city has hugely improved and a new optimism has been created for the first time in decades. I believe this can act as a "positive feedback loop" and propel Athens successfully to the future. The positive attitude is the one thing I agree with Ellin about!

I agree with everything you said here, and I really like your ideas for Athens.


all the big urban developemnts take place in tis country the last 15 years was a catastrofy for Greece before their operation........exactly the same now....

What do you mean by this?

I mean that before big constructions in Greece,like Attica subway,Attiki odos,right now the New Museum and the highway at the thermaikos at Salonica,there are people saying the worst,that are going to destroy the enviroment,the history ,they are going to give less than take mpla mpla mpla..hundrets of cases in the courts about,developments take double time to be finished and at last when they are operational everyone realize that are usefull and how could we live without them before...:lol:

I mean that before big constructions in Greece,like Attica subway,Attiki odos,right now the New Museum and the highway at the thermaikos at Salonica,there are people saying the worst,that are going to destroy the enviroment,the history ,they are going to give less than take mpla mpla mpla..hundrets of cases in the courts about,developments take double time to be finished and at last when they are operational everyone realize that are usefull and how could we live without them before...:lol:

One reason you do not see the destruction that could have been caused, is because thanks to
some of the reactions, provisions are taken and changes are made to the original plan. When you see the result, you may think that was the original plan and people were complaining for nothing, exactly because you do not see the damage that was avoided because of the reactions that caused a change to the original project..

Most delays are not caused by that, but by other contractors who failed to win the contract, as well as local economical and political or even personal interests who pretend they care for the enviroment and give a bad name to those (few) who really do care and know what they are talking about.

Me neither, he said this of me!

Reaper-strain is example of blaiming our city and country all the time.....with a mizerable way....allways have nothing positive to say.......and allways cities abroad are perfect.

To me that is offensive in the fact that he has resorted to lying when me and AAL have been patient with him and tried to explain to him that me saying Barcelona is better at tourism than Athens, or that old buildings in the centre of Athens should not be so easily demolished is not anti-hellenic.

I am also a victim of being called anti-Hellenic :lol:

The irony is that most of you know just how pro-Hellenic I am and how eager I am at seeing Hellas succeed. Thats why my family invests in Greece and thats why I plan to do the same.

Thats why I portray Greece in the best light when I open threads about her.

As for the buildings, I think they need to be moved as I said when this issue first surfaced. If it can be done elsewhere, why not here?

These buildings should be moved elsewhere or demolished!

You probably all remember when there were building the airport E.Venizelos and there was one church in that area which was moved elsewhere.

So why they can't do the same with these buildings???

Now we have a thread on an international SSC forum we can see their views on the new museum (the foreigners):

I like that it doesn't draw too much attention away from the Acropolis. And the views from inside are amazing!!

I am a neuroscientist, not an engineer, but I find it very improbable that they can be moved. The 1890's neoclassical one might be made of just stone walls, in which case it might be no different than the church, albeit on a larger scale...but I suspect it could also have a steel frame, steel structural elements were used in large buildings in the late 19th century. I suppose this might make it more difficult. The 1930 art deco is certainly made of a reinforced concrete frame with deeper foundations and I would imagine it would be even more difficult.
But THAT'SNOT THE POINT. Even if we spend a billion euros and move them, we'll be saving the buildings but still screwing up one of the world's most beautiful streets. A street that is a fitting frame for the Acropolis. Keeping the buildings there damages the view from the cafeteria. Moving them damages the view from the Acropolis and the whole area outside the museum.Which do you think is more important?

First, to suggest the view from the acropolis is damaged by the removal of those 2 little buildings is not reasonable or honest.
Second, it is certainly possible to move them, if I showed you pictures of buildings that have been moved in other countries you will realize these buildings on Dionysiou Aeropagitou are really quite small and simple in comparison!! And it certainly would never cost a billion dollars, actually it would cost less than you would suspect. The truth is, in the rest of the world those 2 buildings are considered small and humble, not such a big deal to move.

I would like to know many of you have you seen the buildings on the back and how much it destroys with their ugly backs the views....
see how the owners of these building pretend that they keep a history while they have already damage these buildings in the worst way...(it can not be moved cause there is not a free space close and pedestrian is protected as monumental construction of the arceological park of the historic centre)
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1696590889_364f5becef_o.jpg


see its builded roof.....if the buildngs wasnt there you could see clear all the ancient theatre of dionisos

Ok, question. Would it be very kitsch, to implement something like a neoclassical facade in the back of the buildings? Or fix them somehow as not to spoil the view?

Or put mirrors?

^^ or position some very tall trees! :colgate:

Ok, question. Would it be very kitsch, to implement something like a neoclassical facade in the back of the buildings? Or fix them somehow as not to spoil the view?

Or put mirrors?

It would be better to make exactly the same somewhere else with better backs....the whole walls on the entrance can be cutted in pieces and rebuild them again on the future structure.....

It would be better to make exactly the same somewhere else with better backs....the whole walls on the entrance can be cutted in pieces and rebuild them again on the future structure.....

Agreed.
Maybe further down Dion.Aero. they would fit in well. :)

^^ or position some very tall trees! :colgate:
Exactly!

Thank you for your kind words....it is really amazing for me to show people describing much f my character inside a forum.......
Exactly allways blaming,mizery and self critisism.........even if we do good things we allways find mizerable time to blame our country....
all the other cities are the best..Athens a heLl......
i agree that 50 years before when i havent borned it was a mistake to be destroyed all these amazing buildings of the past......but we can not stop the future develop of the city cause some people made this mistake on the past....Athens has the oportunities to be amazing city again....
it has some features that even the most well develop cities of the world will not achieve....
its amazing sea,its unbeatable weather and sun,and it gorgeous landscape....
its peopele..hard people but lively
its oportunities for economic develop are lot.....
Reaper-strain is example of blaiming our city and country all the time.....with a mizerable way....allways have nothing positive to say.......and allways cities abroad are perfect.....
i have more foreingers friends than greeks....friends in AAL paradise Rome and Paris.....go and see their social problems.....especially in Rome where the first amount is 950 euro and the cheapest apartment rental is 1600 euro.........
I havent seen reconstruction programm as acropolis .....im not going to blame other countries to maximize the profil of my own......
AAL and Reaper-strain ..minimize their country..........
if we dnt like something in our city we TAKE ACTION AND WE CHANGE IT TO BETTER!!!!!!!!
We are not blaiming and minimize our city and our country......
afto einai RAGIADISMOS

Kai egw exw paratirisi mia tash autokritikhs kai arnikotitas pou provalete pros ta eksw to opoio den einai kai toso kalo gia thn eikona ths xwras mas. Einai kalo na kanoume kritiki eksalou agapame oloi thn Ellada alla den xreiazete na ypervaloume se shmeio pou na dinei kakh entiposi stous ksenous. Exw paratirisi oti auto pou kanoume den ginete sta alla forums diladi kratane mia pio hpia stash stis apopseis tous oste na mhn ek8etoun ti xwra tous. Oloi agapame th xwra mas kseroume oti den einai teleia alla as eimaste ligo pio sigratimeni sth kritiki mas ws pros to ti deixnoume sta forumas auta.

Here is some detail of the doomed:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2095/2096596112_245b301916_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/2095819983_2d5c24fe2c_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2104/2096594210_acc3485a9d_o.jpg

Here is some detail of the doomed:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2095/2096596112_245b301916_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/2095819983_2d5c24fe2c_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2104/2096594210_acc3485a9d_o.jpg

Wow all I can say is that these people in charge of this country should be tried with crimes against humanity. Can we just turn over all governmental powers at all levels to the E.U. and end this insanity?

I do not think they will ever be demolished.

First, they were de-classified by the Ministry of Culture, but they are still classified as protected buildings by the Ministry of Public Works. I have serious doubts the latter would dare go down the same route of the former, especially as we all know that the de-classification from the Ministry of Culture happened because Mr Zahopoulos, as the Ministry's secretary general, had a double vote...

Second, the supreme court (StE) will never allow it to happen. The same supreme court allowed the building of the museum with the proviso it will be "hidden" behind these buildings.

.... especially as we all know that the de-classification from the Ministry of Culture happened because Mr Zahopoulos, as the Ministry's secretary general, had a double vote...

Second, the supreme court (StE) will never allow it to happen. The same supreme court allowed the building of the museum with the proviso it will be "hidden" behind these buildings.

Exactly. At first i was afraid they would be demolished, but now, not a chance in a million it will ever happen :).

***
http://www.greekarchitects.gr/images/news/diagonismos.aeropagitou.ban.jpg

The site of greekarchitects.gr has a competition involving designs that hide the ugly rear sides of the apartment buildings in front of the new museum.

I know some of you here are creative and might have some good ideas about how to reconcile these buildings with the new museum.

see here: http://www.greekarchitects.gr/index.php?maincat=1&newid=1370

*

Excellent news!

Congratulations to greekarchitects, this is a fine initiative.

Facelift could save landmarks
Source: Kathimerini 2 June 2008

Dozens of Greek and foreign architects have responded to a bid by local experts to provide a “facelift” to two historic buildings on Dionysiou Areopagitou Street which face demolition as they partially obstruct the view of the Parthenon from the New Acropolis Museum.

Some 172 participants have already registered their interest in “aesthetically enhancing” the rears of the two listed buildings. These include eminent professionals, such as Stephen Antonakos and Francois Loyer.

Local architectural firm Doxiadis+ has come up with one of the most inspired proposals. It envisages the use of screens made of natural materials, which would cover the back of the buildings, and the planting of trees in front of these screens and on a plot next to the museum. An alternative is the creation of “vertical gardens” of the type that botanist Patrick Blanc has used to inject a dose of green into many parts of urban France and several major cities worldwide.

Meanwhile, petitions for the protection of the two buildings – a treasured art deco structure at No 17 and a fine example of mature neoclassical architecture at No 19 – have gathered in excess of 22,000 signatures. The art deco building has attracted the most public attention due to its uniqueness but there is also strong support for the protection of the adjacent structure which belongs to composer Vangelis Papathanassiou.

A spokesperson for the owners of No 17 – the art deco building – said the petitioners had nothing against the New Acropolis Museum but could not see why its presence should dictate the two buildings’ demolition. “We simply claim that both can coexist,” Marina Kouremenou-Flegga told Kathimerini.

Culture Minister Michalis Liapis has yet to speak out publicly on the issue.

Bravo!

***
http://www.greekarchitects.gr/images/news/diagonismos.aeropagitou.ban.jpg

The site of greekarchitects.gr has a competition involving designs that hide the ugly rear sides of the apartment buildings in front of the new museum.

I know some of you here are creative and might have some good ideas about how to reconcile these buildings with the new museum.

see here: http://www.greekarchitects.gr/index.php?maincat=1&newid=1370

*
Those are good news indeed! :cheers:

^^Ontws polu kala nea... :)

I would mask the building with some ornamentation, making its rear neoclassical. Moreover, I would make some kind of imaginary thematic connection (something as a link between the Akropolis and the museum); for example in a much larger scale that is found in Paris with the Louvre Pyramid-Place de la Concorde, Obelisk-Triumph Arch-La Defense Grande Arch, linking one each other.

Here with some kind of illumination effects, or some projections we could have this buildings as a link between the both the Akropolis and the museum.

I still don't understand how all these issues (pedestrian walk-tearing down buildings...) was not planned initially and has to take part AFTER the museum is completed...??

why is it so prohibitive to work on all issues in parallel?? god knows....

The name you are looking for is STE and NIMBYS, of course they are right in some situations like the above lovely buildings, but usually they ask 10 times the value of their building and plot.
So its not that they are not doing it together but simply they cannot wait for every single problem to be solved until they can build something, otherwise we would still looking at the plans of the museum and whine.

What make sme sad is that we are conserned with the buildings in the front of the museum while the beuties in the back of it WILL be demolished and nobody is doing anything about it. I consider their loss a big loss for this city. They should be restored and given some type of function. I have som epics that I will try to post later. Does anyone have info on those buildings and any ideas as to how we can save them.

Visit the site link below.

This particalar organisation I believe was involved in the initial campaign to the save the two building along Areopagitous St.

Send them an email. They may be able to provide an answer.

http://www.ellinikietairia.gr/

Facelift could save landmarks
Source: Kathimerini 2 June 2008

Dozens of Greek and foreign architects have responded to a bid by local experts to provide a “facelift” to two historic buildings on Dionysiou Areopagitou Street which face demolition as they partially obstruct the view of the Parthenon from the New Acropolis Museum.

Some 172 participants have already registered their interest in “aesthetically enhancing” the rears of the two listed buildings. These include eminent professionals, such as Stephen Antonakos and Francois Loyer.

Local architectural firm Doxiadis+ has come up with one of the most inspired proposals. It envisages the use of screens made of natural materials, which would cover the back of the buildings, and the planting of trees in front of these screens and on a plot next to the museum. An alternative is the creation of “vertical gardens” of the type that botanist Patrick Blanc has used to inject a dose of green into many parts of urban France and several major cities worldwide.

Meanwhile, petitions for the protection of the two buildings – a treasured art deco structure at No 17 and a fine example of mature neoclassical architecture at No 19 – have gathered in excess of 22,000 signatures. The art deco building has attracted the most public attention due to its uniqueness but there is also strong support for the protection of the adjacent structure which belongs to composer Vangelis Papathanassiou.

A spokesperson for the owners of No 17 – the art deco building – said the petitioners had nothing against the New Acropolis Museum but could not see why its presence should dictate the two buildings’ demolition. “We simply claim that both can coexist,” Marina Kouremenou-Flegga told Kathimerini.

Culture Minister Michalis Liapis has yet to speak out publicly on the issue. I was for the demoltion or removal (moving piece by piece) of these buildings in line with the Acropolis Museum's wishes, but now I believe they should be saved. In fact the original brief never demanded that the buildings be put down and they don't obstruct the view of the Parthenon. Plus the buildings look superb.

A win-win situation can occur where the buildings are saved and something archtecturally ingenious is created on the rear perspectives. It's also an opportunity to add value to its sense of place as another point of reference and cutting edge element to the museum space as a whole. As opposed to remaining an obstruction and eyesore. BUT I also fear a kitschy 'veneer'. Hopefully that won't happen and something really aesthetically pleasing, innovative, highly original and complimentary will be realised. I look forward to seeing the proposals!!

BUT I also fear a kitschy 'veneer'. Hopefully that won't happen and something really aesthetically pleasing, innovative, highly original and complimentary will be realised. I look forward to seeing the proposals!!
Any ideas?
I can't picture anything besides a tacky mural happening.

Any ideas?
I can't picture anything besides a tacky mural happening. Man, use your imagination. Besides there are experts for this sort of thing. I'm sure they can come up with something more appealing than a tacky trompe l'oeil mural. Yes it's a challenge, but that's the beauty of architecture and design, the opportunity for innovation NOT imitation. With modern technology and the use of new materials, let's hope the pundits come up with something very clever and highly original.

This is a vertical garden on a wall in Paris. Maybe not exactly the right thing for the DA houses, but something that masks, softens and blends in those rear perspectives with the museum needs to be achieved.

http://i33.picdrive.com/bxmu4ufwlkgu.jpg (http://picdrive.com)

Man, use your imagination.[/URL]
Wow, you are incapable of being nice?

Hhaha...:lol:
dont ask a lot neorion....
imagination...unknown word for many!!!
great idea....one of the best architetors and designers have made this tremendous new Parisian museum...why not...

Hhaha...:lol:
dont ask a lot neorion....
imagination...unknown word for many!!!

Are you implying that I don't have imagination?! :nuts: :lol:

Πολλά έχουν ειπωθεί για αυτή την ιστορία και το παρακάτω κείμενο ίσως είναι ενδεικτικό της όλης κατάστασης…των άκρων και των υπερβολών από όλες τις πλευρές. Μπορεί κάποιος να συμφωνεί η να διαφωνεί με τα όσα γράφει ο γνωστός συγγραφεύς αλλά όταν αρχίζει να το παίζει αρχιτέκτονας το παιχνίδι χάνεται και μπαίνει κανείς στην σφαίρα του γραφικού…στην Ελλάδα όλοι είναι ειδικοί και φυσικά θα το έκαναν καλύτερα. Κρίμα…γιατί καμιά φορά έτσι χάνεις και το δίκιο σου.
Προσέξτε την αναφορά στον Calatrava…
:ohno::ohno:

«Καφετέρια Τσουμί» - 2008-10-26
Η ενότητα αυτή των δημοσιεύσεων, η σχετική με την αναγκαιότητα ή όχι της κατεδάφισης των διατηρητέων κτιρίων της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου, συνεχίζεται με την παρουσίαση, όπως και την προηγούμενη φορά, του άρθρου ενός συγγραφέα.Το άρθρο του κ. Βασίλη Βασιλικού.

Το άρθρο του κ. Βασίλη Βασιλικού έχει ως τίτλο «Καφετέρια Τσουμί». Και αυτό το άρθρο εμπλουτίζει το σύνηθες αρχιτεκτονικό λεξιλόγιο και την αναμενόμενη αρχιτεκτονική επιχειρηματολογία. Ο κ. Βασιλικός θέτει κατ’ αρχάς το ερώτημα πώς είναι δυνατόν να κατεδαφίζονται κτίρια τα οποία η ίδια η πολιτεία έχει χαρακτηρίσει διατηρητέα και τα οποία μάλιστα έχουν επιλεγεί ότι αντιπροσωπεύουν την ελληνική αρχιτεκτονική από τα μέσα του 19ου αιώνα ώς το τέλος του 20ού; Στοχεύει μετά στο τριτοκοσμικό όπως αναφέρει αίθριο-βέλος της καφετέριας το οποίο είναι άγριο, επιθετικό και προκλητικό ως να ήθελε να γκρεμίσει τα διατηρητέα και την Ακρόπολη την ίδια. Το άρθρο αυτό δημοσιεύθηκε στην εφημερίδα Ελευθεροτυπία στις 6-10-2007.



ΒΑΣΙΛΗΣ ΒΑΣΙΛΙΚΟΣ

«Καφετέρια Τσουμί»

Το πρόβλημα είναι απλό και σύνθετο: στις προδιαγραφές του διεθνούς διαγωνισμού για το νέο Μουσείο της Ακρόπολης (κάτι που εισηγήθηκα πρώτος εγώ στην αξέχαστη Μελίνα, υπουργό Πολιτισμού εν έτει 1982!) υπήρχαν τα δύο νεοκλασικά κτίρια επί της οδού Διονυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου ως διατηρητέα που έπρεπε ο αρχιτέκτονας που θα συμμετείχε στο διαγωνισμό να τα λάβει υπ' όψιν του ή όχι;

Απ' ό,τι διάβασα στις εφημερίδες ο όρος της διατήρησής τους υπήρχε. Αλλιώς πώς δικαιολογείται ότι επελέγησαν το 1999 από Ελληνες και ξένους ειδικούς ως δύο από τα συνολικά 43 αρχιτεκτονήματα που αντιπροσωπεύουν την ελληνική αρχιτεκτονική από τα μέσα του 19ου αιώνα ώς το τέλος του 20ού;

Ή μπαίνοντας στον 21ο αιώνα η διάκριση αυτή καταργήθηκε;

Οπότε, αν έτσι έχουν τα πράγματα, ο κ. Τσουμί παρανόμησε. Και θα έπρεπε να ερωτηθεί γι' αυτό μεθαύριο που έρχεται καλεσμένος στο Megaron Plus να μας μιλήσει.

Και αν όπως πιστεύω παρανόμησε θα πρέπει να του επιβληθεί το ανάλογο βαρύ πρόστιμο.

Τ ώρα, αν δεν υπήρχε η διατήρησή τους μέσα στις προδιαγραφές του αρχιτεκτονικού διαγωνισμού, τα δύο αυτά νεοκλασικά θα έπρεπε να αποχαρακτηρισθούν μόλις ο διαγωνισμός αυτός προκηρύχθηκε, δηλαδή προ εικοσαετίας, και όχι ο ένας εκ των ιδιοκτητών (του νούμερου 19), ο διάσημος ανά την υφήλιο και το σύμπαν (αφού και το όνομα άστρου τού δόθηκε, κοντά στον πλανήτη Αρη) ο Vangelis για τον κόσμο, για μας ο Βαγγέλης Παπαθανασίου, να το αγοράσει τέλος της δεκαετίας του '80, αρχές του '90, έναντι υπέρογκου ποσού, ως διατηρητέο.

Τι συμβαίνει λοιπόν; Και ποιος θα λογοδοτήσει εν τέλει σε ποιον;

Η απόφαση της άρσης του χαρακτηρισμού τους ως διατηρητέων πάρθηκε στις 3 Ιουλίου ε.ε. από το Κεντρικό Αρχαιολογικό Συμβούλιο με ισοψηφία (12 υπέρ - 12 κατά), όμως προσμετρήθηκε η δπλή ψήφος του προέδρου τότε και τώρα γενικού γραμματέα του ΥΠΠΟ κι έτσι ο αποχαρακτηρισμός τους πλειοψήφησε.

Ωστόσο η χαριστική βολή δόθηκε από τον απερχόμενο υπουργό Πολιτισμού, τον κύριο Βουλγαράκη, στις 30 Αυγούστου ε.ε., ενώ θα μπορούσε και ήταν το πιο σωστό να αφήσει την τελική απόφαση στο νέο υπουργό Πολιτισμού που θα τον διαδεχόταν.

Στα δικαστήρια η ισοψηφία των ενόρκων λειτουργεί πάντα υπέρ της αθωότητος του κατηγορουμένου. Στην περίπτωση του ΚΑΣ όχι μόνο δεν λειτούργησε έτσι, αλλά οδηγήθηκε ο κατηγορούμενος άρον άρον στο εκτελεστικό απόσπασμα, ακόμα και με καταργημένη συνταγματικά την εσχάτη των ποινών.

Διάβασα τα πάντα που αφορούν την υπόθεση στον Τύπο. Οι δημοσκοπήσεις είναι 80% να διατηρηθούν τα κτίρια αυτά, ως κοσμήματα της πόλης. Από τα πολλά σωστά και ωραία που ειπώθηκαν, διαλέγω μόνο δύο, έτσι σαν καρύκευμα: του Στέφανου Μάνου, στην «Καθημερινή»: «...Δεν αντιλαμβάνεται ο αφελής εκπρόσωπος της πολιτείας ότι ο αποχαρακτηρισμός διατηρητέων υπονομεύει συνολικά τον θεσμό της διατήρησης... Εφεξής όσοι έχουν διατηρητέα θα ψάχνουν πρόσχημα για να απαλλαγεί η ιδιοκτησία τους από το βάρος της διατήρησης, μια που η διατήρηση δεν έχει πια μόνιμο χαρακτήρα». Και την έξυπνη ατάκα του Λευτέρη Παπαδόπουλου στα «Νέα»: «Σημειώνω ότι αναρωτήθηκαν πολλοί ως προς το "πρόβλημα" της θέας: δεν θα την εμποδίζουν και τα ψηλόκορμα και φουντωτά πλατάνια της Αρεοπαγίτου; Θα πρέπει να τα κόψουμε κι αυτά;».

Ώσπου προχθές Κυριακή αποφάσισα ο ίδιος να πάω να κάνω μιαν αυτοψία. Με την παλιά μου ιδιότητα του πρέσβη στην ΟΥΝΕΣΚΟ ξεγέλασα τον φύλακα και μπήκα στο γιαπί του Μουσείου.

Κι εκεί έφριξα. Εκεί που ο Καλατράβα υπερύψωνε και άνοιγε θόλους, ο κ. Τσουμί επιτίθεται, είναι προκλητικός. «Κι αυτή η τριγωνική εξέδρα τι είναι;», ρώτησα, προσποιούμενος τον αφελή. «Το αίθριο της καφετέριας», μου απάντησε.

Φίλοι αναγνώστες, συμπολίτες και συμπολίτισσες, αν πάτε να δείτε, θα φρίξετε κι εσείς: το αίθριο αυτό είναι ένα βέλος από τσιμέντο που εκτοξεύεται πισώπλατα στα δύο διατηρητέα, σαν να ήθελε να τα γκρεμίσει μόνο με την ορμή του. Είναι άγριο, είναι τριτοκοσμικό.

Φυσικά και ταιριάζει με την εκτρωματική σύλληψη του όλου Μουσείου. Αλλά τέτοια επιθετικότητα, ανάξια ενός σημαντικού αρχιτέκτονα σαν τον κ. Τσουμί, δεν την περίμενα.

Αν ήταν να κατεδαφιστούν τα κτίρια, το βέλος αυτό θα σημαδεύει την ίδια την Ακρόπολη, σαν να θέλει να την γκρεμίσει κι αυτήν. Αυτός είναι ο ποθούμενος διάλογος κύριε Τσουμί με το Μνημείο;

Ο ι καφετέριες κύριε Τσουμί, παντού στον κόσμο, γίνονται κυρίως στα ισόγεια των Μουσείων. Με εξαίρεση ίσως το Μπομπούρ, που αντίθετα έχει κανείς θέα από εκεί ψηλά σε ολόκληρο το Παρίσι.

Αντί λοιπόν να γκρεμιστούν τα δύο νεοκλασικά, προτείνω από τώρα, όσο είναι καιρός, να γκρεμιστεί αυτό το αίθριο της καφετέριας. Λίγα δεν τράβηξε το πολύπαθο Μουσείο της Ακρόπολης. Ε, ας ταλαιπωρηθεί ακόμα λίγο.

Εσύ, Μελίνα, που το ξεκίνησες, θα έκανες τώρα απεργία πείνας ώσπου να ανακληθεί το τόξο-εκδίκηση, το αίθριο της καφετέριας Τσουμί.

Βασίλης Βασιλικός

Ta apotelesmata tou katapliktikou diagonismou protasi tou greekarchitects.gr gia tin diamorfosi twn pisw opsewn twn diatiritewn stou makrigianni...

1o Braveio - 1st Prize
http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq75/alXandros/159.jpg
Θωμάς Δοξιάδης, Μαρίνα Αντσακλή, Τέρψη Κρεμαλή, Διονυσία Λιβέρη, Αγγελική Μαθιουδάκη, Ήρα Vonderthann

2o Braveio - 2nd Prize
http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq75/alXandros/190.jpg
Κατερίνα Τρυφωνίδου, Δημήτρης Γουρδούκης, Θοδώρα Χριστοφορίδου, Φώτης Βασιλάκης, Βασίλης Ντόβρος

3o Braveio - 3rd Prize
http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq75/alXandros/233.jpg
Βαγγέλης Κοτσιώρης


Deite ta vraveia tous epainous kai oles tis symmetoxes edw...
http://www.greekarchitects.gr/index.php?diagw=results

Aidiastikes liseis

:bash:

Iparxei idi oikopedo epi Aeropagitou....I kaliteri lisi einai i metafora kai ton dio ktirion ekei....alla to Yppo tha to xrisimopoieisei gia na ktisi to pliroforiako kedro tou Astynet...

For me, this is a non- issue. There is NO LEGAL WAY to demolish buildings characterized as listed UNLESS it is proven that the characterization is wrong. No other legal way. At the same time, the thought is also unimaginable culturally. Vassilikos may be exaggerating in his words agains the museum, but it is the people involved in this scandal, from Zahopoulos to Pandermalis, who are forcing people to see the museum in a hostile manner. The museum is a great monumental modern building. Why did they have to spoil it by connecting it with the demolition scandal?

Anyway, the demolition will not happen. The Supreme Court will not allow it - it only gave a building permit for the museum with the proviso that the buildings are preserved. And, even if they tried to, I can tell you that many of us would stand in front of the bulldozers. There are 25000 signatures up to now and counting. We've had enough with the barbarians destroying our city since the '60s. We've had enough.

I agree, I don't support demolition either.

Plant a few super advanced Cyprus trees and overtime the rear of these two buildings will be softened.

Forget the fancy totem poles and murals.......just plant more trees.

The last thing the Acropolis needs is more visual clutter.....

I agree, I don't support demolition either.

Plant a few super advanced Cyprus trees and overtime the rear of these two buildings will be softened.

Forget the fancy totem poles and murals.......just plant more trees.

The last thing the Acropolis needs is more visual clutter.....

Easy, simple, inexpensive, aesthetically pleasant, quick and effective.

What can I say, Nicky I like your idea, however I'm not sure if they'll do something like that. Sometimes people use to complicate things, looking for complex solutions, when an easier one is there before their eyes.

I agree!

Πάντως μια τέτοια κατάσταση μόνο σε μια χώρα σαν τη δική μας θα μπορούσε να συμβεί…ένα θέμα δημιουργήθηκε από το πουθενά και μετά η απόλυτη ελληνική εκδοχή ή αλλιώς η επιτομή της βλακείας, της υποκρισίας και του παραλογισμού. Στη συνέχεια έπρεπε να παίξουμε με τις ομάδες, εμείς και αυτοί…και όλα όσα ακουστήκαν εκατέρωθεν. Τόση φασαρία για μια ανοησία από το πουθενά που ακύρωνε την ίδια την πολιτεία τόσο στο θέμα του χαρακτηρισμού /αποχαρακτηρισμού των κτηρίων όσο και για τον διαγωνισμό του κτηρίου του νέου μουσείου. Αλλά και από την άλλη πλευρά ακουστήκαν τόσες υπερβολές ενώ το όλο θέμα χρησιμοποιήθηκε από ορισμένους για άλλους λογούς αφού πολύ απλά λιγοστοί ενδιαφερθήκαν πραγματικά για τα κτήρια όπως θα το έκαναν για κάθε άλλο κτήριο στην πόλη που αντιμετωπίζει αντίστοιχα προβλήματα επιβίωσης καθώς μικρά εγκλήματα πραγματοποιούνται καθημερινά χωρίς ανάλογες εκστρατείες που συντηρούν τα μικροαστικά πάθη…Σκέφτομαι πως τελικά όποιος ξένος αρχιτέκτονας μπλέκει με την Ελλάδα γίνεται και λίγο Έλληνας…σαν να είχε κλείσει από καιρό το μάτι κάποιος αρμόδιος στον Tschumi… φτιάξε εσύ το μουσείο και θα δούμε τι θα κάνουμε μετά…γιατί πως αλλιώς να εξηγηθεί το ανεξήγητο, ότι δεν ξυπνάς μια μέρα με αυτή την ιδέα και αρχίζεις όλη αυτή την ιστορία. Ας θυμηθούμε πως ξεκίνησε όταν το μουσείο ήταν σχεδόν έτοιμο άρα τίποτα δεν μπορούσε να σταματήσει το έργο…γιατί άραγε δεν παρουσιάστηκε η ιδέα νωρίτερα? Μήπως επειδή πάλι θα κολλούσε το μουσείο με προσφυγές? Ενώ μετά το timing ήταν εξαιρετικό, τα παίζεις όλα και αν σου βγει οκ αν όχι το μουσείο πάντως δεν απειλείται…ευτυχώς αυτή η εκδοχή του δον Κιχώτη παίρνει τέλος και τα πράγματα ηρεμούν η καλυτέρα επανέρχονται σε ότι έπρεπε να είναι…το μουσείο είναι το πολύ σημαντικό που πρέπει όλοι να χαρούμε ενώ τα κτήρια θα παραμείνουν στην θέση τους και θα πρέπει να εφαρμοστεί και εκεί ο νόμος, δηλαδή τέλος τα πανωσηκωματα και οι όποιες αυθαιρεσίες. τώρα για την πίσω πλευρά…με λίγα δέντρα γίνεται η δουλειά αλλά αν θέλουμε κάτι άλλο ο αρχιτέκτονας του μουσείου φαίνεται ο καταλληλότερος να βρει μια λύση που ίσως συμπεριλάβει και τους γύρω δρόμους, σταθμό μέτρο. Το νέο μουσείο είναι ίσως από τα σημαντικότερα αρχιτεκτονήματα, τουλάχιστον μεταπολεμικά, που θα παίξει τεράστιο ρόλο στην ζωή στην πόλη σε πολλαπλά επίπεδα τα επόμενα χρόνια, όμως πέρα από το concept της επαφής με το μνημείο της Ακρόπολης που έχει ενδιαφέρον και είναι συστατικό στοιχείο του κτηρίου, ας μην υπερβάλουμε καθιστώντας το ένα είδος παρατηρητηρίου του ιερού βράχου παραβλέποντας το υπόλοιπο της υπέροχης σύλληψης του αρχιτέκτονα. Το μέτρο βοηθά στη συγκεκριμένη ιστορία σε ότι έχει να κάνει με την επούλωση και την συμπόρευση. Όμως το ξεκίνημα της ιστορίας ήταν περιττό και βλακώδες όσο ήταν και οι αθλιότητες που άκουσε το νέο κτήριο ως δήθεν αντίλογο…( κάποιοι ποτέ δεν χώνεψαν την κατασκευή του και φυσικά... δεκάδες greeks θα το έκαναν καλύτερα, ειδικοί και μη):lol::lol:. Πως τα καταφέραμε την γιορτή να την μετατρέψουμε σε μια ακόμα ανούσια διαμάχη είναι απορίας άξιο.
:badnews:

Καλά ο Αναστασάκης δεν βαρέθηκε να δημοσιεύει ανούσια και πικρόχολα κείμενα του κάθε πικραμένου για το νέο μουσείο της ακρόπολης? Το τελευταίο είναι για γέλια , μια ακόμα λογοτεχνικού ύφους επιστημονική – υποτίθεται – προσέγγιση. Φυσικά υπάρχει μια ελάχιστη αναφορά στα επίμαχα κτήρια και καμιά πρόταση συνύπαρξης με το νέο μουσείο….έστω κάτι πέρα από υστερία και μιζέρια.
:ohno:


Η ενότητα αυτή των δημοσιεύσεων, η σχετική με την αναγκαιότητα ή όχι της κατεδάφισης των διατηρητέων κτιρίων της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου, συνεχίζεται με την παρουσίαση μιας παρέμβασης του αρχιτέκτονα-πολεοδόμου Αντώνη Αντωνιάδη.

Ο κ. Αντώνης Αντωνιάδης είναι Αρχιτέκτων-Πολεοδόμος, τ. καθηγητής αρχιτεκτονικής UTA. Ο επιστολογράφος επισημαίνει ότι το κοινό συνειδητοποιεί πλέον ότι το ΝΜΑ είναι ένα κτήριο “που δεν μιλά και ούτε τραγουδά”- παραφωνεί και ανταγωνίζεται. Η επιστολή αυτή δημοσιεύθηκε στην εφημερίδα Η Καθημερινή στις 23-10-2007.

Επιστολή για τα κτήρια της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου

Είναι γνωστό ότι το ευρύ κοινό (συμπεριλαμβανομένων και μη αρχιτεκτονικά εκπαιδευμένων δημοσιογράφων), έχει δυσκολία να κατανοεί αλλά και να κρίνει αρχιτεκτονικά σχέδια, ακόμη και μακέτες προτεινομένων έργων. Άρα, είναι αναμενόμενο, η κριτική εκτίμηση του κοινού να αρχίζει να εκδηλώνεται κατά την αποπεράτωση.
Είναι λογικό και υγιέστατο που το κοινό της Αθήνας , και με αφορμή την σκανδαλώδη και συνθετικά απαράδεκτη απόφαση του ΚΑΣ και του υπουργού να κατεδαφίσουν τα δύο κτήρια της Διoνυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου 17-19, εκφράζεται τώρα, γιατί τώρα μπορεί να δει και να εκτιμήσει τι ακριβώς είναι και τι προτίθεται να κάνει το συγκεκριμένο κτήριο. Τουλάχιστον το κοινό, προσπαθεί τώρα να σώσει δύο σημαντικά κτήρια κι’ ένα μοναδικό δρόμο και πρέπει να το εκτιμήσουμε.
Δεν πρόκειται ούτε για «ομφαλοσκόπηση» όπως διατείνεται ο κος. Ν.Βατόπουλος, ,ούτε για «στρουθοκαμηλισμό» που υπoστηρίζει η κα. Ο. Σελλά (βλ. “Η Καθημερινή» 10-10-07, σ.15). Είναι η μάχη του κοινού απέναντι στην αλλαζονία κατά του περί Τέχνης και αισθητικής αρχιτεκτονικού του DNA, της προσβολής κατά των καταβολών και της ιστορίας του. Γιατί το κοινό τώρα βλέπει και συνειδητοποιεί ένα κτήριο “που δεν μιλά και ούτε τραγουδά”-παραφωνεί και ανταγωνίζεται (βλ. Καθημερινή , επιστολή «Ξίφιος Πέλεκυς»9-8-03), και που κατά τον Ευπαλίνο ένα τέτοιο κτήριο θα ‘πρεπε να αξίζει την περιφρόνησή μας (βλ. P.Valery, Ευπαλίνος, Μετ. Ελλη Λαμπρίδη, σ.23) .
Θα ήταν όμως εγκληματική η σιωπή μας αν αφήναμε την χειραγωγική των μίντια και τον φόβο, τις νέες αυτές διαστάσεις της εποχής μας, να κλείσουν το στόμα μας, να σταματήσουν τις γραφίδες , να καταδυναστεύσουν το «Είναι» μας, …Οι Αθηναίοι κριτίκαραν διαχρονικά, έτσι και τώρα (βλ. πχ Viollet le Duc /Διαλέξεις, και Paul Valéry / Ευπαλίνος ή ο Αρχιτέκτων).

Δεν είναι θέμα Ξενοφοβίας, δυσανεξίας στο «νέο» ή στη μόδα (βλ. Βατόπουλου και Σελλά ανωτέρω). Μάλλον πρόκειται για την αποτυχία της εδώ και μερικά χρόνια επιχειρούμενης χειραγώγησης της κοινής γνώμης να ανεχθεί ένα «κάκιστο» κτήριο, από έναν αρχιτέκτονα που νεότερος έδειχνε ότι θα γινόταν «πραγματικά πρωτοπόρος» , αλλά που στα εξήντα του και στην χώρα του Ικτίνου δημιούργησε ένα «κακό παλιό»(το τελευταίο κτήριο του πατέρα του -το WHO Κτήριο Παγκοσμίου Οργανισμού Υγείας στη Λωζάνη- ήταν κατά πολύ «πρωτοποριακότερο» για την εποχή του(1962), απ’ το μοντερνιστικό δικό του- ΝΜΑ) . Και βέβαια δεν φταίει αυτός… Η Ιστορία όμως θα καταγράψει πιστεύω με μελανά γράμματα όλους εκείνους που τον εβράβευσαν, των υπουργών που το υλοποίησαν, και εκείνων πού έγιναν όργανα στη χειραγώγιση, εγχώρια και διεθνή.

Ευχαριστώ
Αντώνης Κ.Αντωνιάδης ΑΙΑ, ΑΙCP
Αρχιτέκτων-Πολεοδόμος
τ. καθηγητής αρχιτεκτονικής UTA
http://greekarchitects.org/

by the way τον διάλογο που τον είδε ο Αναστασάκης...:lol::lol::lol:

δώστε ένα μικρόφωνο στο μουσείο να τραγουδήσει....:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: