Wirral. What is it good for? [Archive]

paulmac35

October 19th, 2007, 07:48 PM

some more famous people from the Wirral:-

Lewis Collins (Bodie from the professionals!) born in bidston
Glenda Jackson
John Peel
Nelson's "bit on the side" Lady Hamilton, was from Wirral

some adopted sons:-

Wilfred Owen, legendary poet lived in wirral
Harold Wilson went to school in wirral
Daniel Craig (new James bond) grew up in wirral
For sure, Rafa lives on the Wirral.

not sure if Dickie Davies is from the Wirral, but I know his latter day sports presenter clone- Ray Stubbs is from Wallasey

Games-programming legend Mathew Smith lived in Wallasey and wrote the classic manic miner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manic_Miner) and jet set willy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Set_Willy) whilst there, before mysteriously vanishing for nearly 8 years.

yeah dickie davies is from Wallasey.

also from Birkenhead are charlie landsborough, graham beakcroft (off talk sport).
ron saunders (aston villa manager in charge of the villa side that won the league in 1981 that contained many scousers). paul o'grady (obviously!), elvis costello (mcmanus),

orchestral manouvers in the dark where from Wallasey (great band). joanna lumley i am told was born in Heswall.

Birkenhead Park is a very famous park that Central Park in New York is copied off!

i think Birkenhead and Wallasey should never have been swallowed up by Wirral council. they had been independent for about a century and where large enough to acquire county borough status (Birkenhead was once the largest town/city in cheshire). both are now totally overshadowed by the "Wirral brand". Wirral council is yet another example of a mickey mouse, illogical borough just like those on this side of the water in Knowsley and Sefton.

Blabber II

October 19th, 2007, 08:00 PM

It looks like an erect penis :)

How do you know? :hahaha:

Awayo

October 19th, 2007, 09:19 PM

The Crown pub, Birkenhead.

The Demon Molyneux

October 19th, 2007, 09:23 PM

It's good for Europa Pools.

Awayo

October 19th, 2007, 09:52 PM

What happened to that "Eurowirral" palaver? That was bollocks.

buggedboy

October 19th, 2007, 10:00 PM

I've lived in Liverpool for 10 years and I've never been to Birkenhead (going through it doesnt count). I always surprise myself when I remember that.

Awayo

October 19th, 2007, 10:07 PM

Ferry Bugs. Get a ferry.

Hamilton Square is the best square in Great Britain north of London and south of Edinburgh.

Scarecrow

October 20th, 2007, 05:26 AM

Wasn't Leonard Rossiter a Wirrallilliiaialian? :?

Paul D

October 20th, 2007, 01:27 PM

Wasn't Leonard Rossiter a Wirrallilliiaialian? :?

He was from Toxteth I think.

paulmac35

October 20th, 2007, 02:37 PM

leonard rossiter was from toxteth. his father was killed by the luffwaffe at mill road hospital in 1941. he was an ambulance driver there. apparently, he and his colleagues were playing cards when the bomb hit and were found in the bolt upright position with their cards still in their hands. a sad story.

Evertonian

October 23rd, 2007, 02:48 AM

The fact that the Wirral has it's own identity apart from Liverpool, but at the same time is and could be a great partner for Liverpoolis great.

Dismissing thiusands of years of Wirral history independent of Liverpool is a bit patronising and won't warm anybody who considers themself to be a Wirrilian to the concept of a Liverpool region.

People who engage in this kind of talk actually harm the concept and would do best to keep their opinions to themselves.

If the Wirral is so useless and non existent why is it so important to annexe us? Could it be because of the relative better wealth and higher income of those over here, or perhaps is it an inferiority complex when competing with Greater Manchester?

You would never get a majority of Wirral people agreeing to be part of a Liverpool city region so forget it.

Awayo

October 23rd, 2007, 09:44 AM

Villiers Terrace

October 23rd, 2007, 10:16 AM

A "Wirralian". There isn't such thing as a Wirralian. Wallasey and Birkenhead, now these are real towns with their own (in reality, about) 150 years of history, although one is a overspill of the Liverpool dock estate and ship repair industry and the other a suburb of Liverpool but still, they are places.

It's hilarious but Wirral is part of the Liverpool city region already. Heard of the old Merseyside County Council, Merseytravel, Merseyside Police, The Mersey Partnership, all existing or former city region bodies? That's people mean when they say "Liverpool City Region" they don't mean Liverpool annexing all of its suburbs and commuter belt but the the reality of the real relationships that exists between all of the places in the region that is centred on Liverpool should be reflected, somehow, in local government cooperation and planning.

I'm from Formby. It was founded by the Vikings. However for over 1,000 years it contained a handful of villagers fishing and growing asparagus. The Formby I am from really came into existence when the railway line was built to Liverpool and thousands of Liverpool merchants and other middle class people came to settle there increasing its population by many times and resulting in most of the modern town being built. Actually the Formby that I am really from is even more recent than that. It came into existence when big postwar estates where built there the population quadrupled again as aspirant working class people from Liverpool and Bootle bought homes there and the accent changed within a generation.

I tell you what though, I've certainly not got a "Sefton identity". Unique and separate Wirral identity indeed. Arf. You're more Scouse than I am but yes I'm from greater Liverpool, there's no doubt about that whatsoever.

Formby may have a distant history as a tiny rural history, as do places on the Wirral, but so do the districts of Liverpool, themselves once, so long ago, tiny Viking settlements just like the places on the Wirral. What's different about the Wirral ones?

Exactly. 21C (and, to be honest 20C) "Wirral" without a Liverpool does not exist, could not exist.

Being merely 1/4 of a mile over the stream, there is no separate non-Liverpool identity. It may be duller, naffer, plastic sort of Scouse, yes, but for better or worse, it's still "Scouse". Scouse-lite if you will.

And actually the reason this does matter is that given the fact that size is indeed very important in the realpolitik of National and International urban affairs, there are few cities in the World wealthy enough to uphold a quant pretension that half their of their city doesn't exist. This has serious economic ramifications in terms of central spending, investment, clout, so on and so forth..

This modern-day not-quite-anything, insignificance of Wirral, it's plazzie-type naffness would be remedied at a stroke: official and politcal acceptance of the economic reality- Wirral is Liverpool, Liverpool is Wirral. No more jokes.

kat2

October 23rd, 2007, 05:33 PM

the golden vision

October 23rd, 2007, 06:15 PM

paulmac35

October 23rd, 2007, 08:47 PM

In 1150 Hamon de Massie, who owned a considerable amount of land on Wirral, founded a Benedictine Priory, dedicated to St. Mary and St. James, the remains of which stand today
The only thing Wirral has in common with Liverpool, is peel holdings and regeneration, one doesnt necessarly need the other, but rather compliment each other. Were, the posh side after all (ducks) (hides even) we speak proper too:nuts:Liverpudians always knock there city, wirral doesnt knock itself, rather prides itself in being a peninsula of class, the gateway to the Mersey and River dee in Wales.
Liverpool is the home of famous legends, wirrals the home of Monks, an ship buildink.
:bash:
kat:):):)

but you forget kat that the vast majority of people from the wirral (excluding Birkenhead) are descendents of Liverpool, many of them 1st generation, (including my 2 sisters and their fellas!). just study migration patterns over the last 150 years. we all have family who have bettered themselves and moved over the water. but you will find very few who have moved from the wirral side to this side (i have never met one such person!). the fact remains that when Liverpool first grew significantly as a port from 1780 onwards, the surrounding areas then started to grow. ie. Bootle, Crosby, Prescot, Wallasey, Birkenhead, etc.

the following link provides a perfect snapshot of the migration patterns at that time.

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/chs/wallasey.html

from a population of about 4,000 in 1901 to a whopping great 100,000 in 1951 simply illustrates the point that Wallasey was effectively a Liverpool suburb in the same way Bootle, Crosby, Huyton, etc were at this time. i.e. they all absorbed excess Liverpool population as the migration patterns spread outwards from inner city liverpool. The same could be said to be true for the rest of the Wirral (including Ellesmere Port).

using accents as a barometer for "scouseness" (which i dont like doing as we are all a part of this City Region whether we like it or not), you will find there isnt much difference between the Liverpool/ Bootle/Wallasey/Birkenhead dialects (and nor should there be). all are fairly strong on the whole. obviously the further out you travel from the city centre to Hoylake, Formby, Aughton, the accent is a bit more middle class sounding but still overwhelmingly scouse. and totally different to the Lancashire accents of St Helens and Southport which developed as different entities, but still firmly within the naturally existing Liverpool region.

we need to get away from this inhouse squabbling! you dont see it in Manchester. the fact is when Liverpool grows, we all grow! When it slumps, we all slump! as we all rely on it for our prosperity.

Babaloo

October 23rd, 2007, 09:42 PM

yoshef

October 23rd, 2007, 09:50 PM

Veinticinco

October 23rd, 2007, 09:53 PM

Wirral on its own is useless. It needs to be part of a bigger city region - Birkenhead and the other smaller centers aren't enough to support the 300k people living on the Wirral. One in ten people from here work in Liverpool city center (excluding Bootle and other places outside the 'official' city boundary,) that's a big number. Let's face it, town would probably go a bit downhill if 30,000 people quit their jobs so that's one reason to keep it. Plus almost every person on Merseyside has family in boro's other than Liverpool, who doesn't have family in either Wirral or Sefton? Probably both? My mum is from Everton, I'm from Wallasey, I've got family in Walton/Bootle/Netherton, my sister lives in Tranmere... All over 'Merseyside' (some silly word for what should be called Greater Liverpool.) I think that's pretty much the average?

It's ironic that the one and only thing which brought Wirral and Liverpool together - the river - is also the one and only thing which splits them apart (not just geographically!) Snobbery goes on at both ends. I mentioned my mum coming from Everton, well the other day she mentioned how long she'd lived in Wallasey now and I brought it to her attention that she'd been a wool longer than she'd been a scouser, she said "I don't like the sound of that!".. It's not cool to come from the Wirral :(.

PS. It's annoying when I live about 4 miles away from the city center and could be seen as an outsider by somebody living 10 miles away.. Bloody river.

paulmac35

October 23rd, 2007, 10:03 PM

Its politicians make ours seem like competent individuals with a shared vision of the future.

If Birkenhead and Wallasey can be absorbed into the farce that is 'Wirral' we might as well cut to the chase and call the whole area Liverpool. Sooner rather than later, I'm starting to tire of all these Viking pretensions, and as for the Cheshire cheese brigade :bash:

To be honest, I am getting sick of this Wirral nationalism! (I realise not everyone from the Wirral is this way of course). Of course, prior to the development of Liverpool as a big port in the late 1700's Wirral was a total different entity to Liverpool. But since then, its fortunes have ran hand in hand with that of Liverpool's. It has been settled by Liverpudlians. Is naturally part of the Liverpool city region, in terms of commerce, 200 year history, culture, transport links, etc.

Indeed, if this was just about any other city in the UK but Liverpool or Manchester, Wirral would already be part of Liverpool. i.e the modern day huge cities of Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford, Wakefield, etc. are 4 or 5 times the size of modern day Liverpool and Manchester.

You dont hear the likes of Tony Sebo (from Knowsley borough) or Awayo or me (from Sefton borough) spouting that we come from towns that are independent of Liverpool and that we are Knowsleypolitans (crickey!) or Seftonians! Nope we is from Liverpool! (or Liverpool's eastern half if you like!) and proud of our unique history and heritage that sets us aside from the rest of the North West (shudders at the mention of that term!).

paulmac35

October 23rd, 2007, 10:06 PM

paulmac35

October 23rd, 2007, 10:15 PM

kat2

October 23rd, 2007, 10:40 PM

yoshef

October 23rd, 2007, 10:56 PM

>Wirrals Its politicians make ours seem like competent individuals with a shared vision of the future.

thats why recently peels outspokenly said they are growing tired of the way they are treated by Liverpool council! it was posted in one of the threads on here, not in those exact words but near enough, where as they commented that wirrals councillors on the other hand were willing to negotiate thats why alot of peels future work is signed and sealed over here on the wirral. Another issue you all want to consider is this, if wirral were to become part of greater Liverpool, just like many areas around Manchester became part of Greater Manchester, it was not for the good of Manchester or the greater Manchester regions, all it did was permit the government to spend less by almalgamation. By being individual has its strengths, each area as we have already seen in Liverpool alone has its own special needs, Wirral is no different in that respect. Historically Liverpools councils have never been good, look at the fiasco you had with Mathew Street, look at lost oppotunitys with regards to business investors, thats why peels are investing so much in Manchester.It will be interesting to see who foots the bill for the capital of culture, will it be the council tax payers?
personally, although I like Liverpool and admire the investment at the moment, I am of a wait and see point of view, will the bubble burst? will investors get fed up?
I have lived in Manchester, Liverpool and Wirral, and sadly never came across so much negativity from the people I have met over the years as a Liverpool resident.
Wirral is not a city, never will be, it does have a beautiful aspect though of being a peninsula.
we are not part of Liverpool we are however, part of Liverpools history.
what would be gained if anything from wirral becoming part of Merseyside again? do you some how think the governments going to poor millions in? no, all they will do is reduce the total spend, historically thats all that governments try to do, look at ways of saving money giving out less but collecting more. It should also be interesting to see where you council tax banding goes with all this investment and redevelopment.
kat:ohno:

the metropolitan councils where scrapped by thatcher for being profligate - city regions are not the same thing

prior to merseyside county council there was Wallasey Corpy and Birkenhead Corpy - there was no "Wirral", it was purely geographical, like "Asia". These two overspill towns of Liverpool make up the bulk of what is now Wirral. I'm from Wallasey, my dad from birkenhead and my grandads family originated in old swan - and for lack of a better expression, "Wirral BC" can bugger off, Wallasey & Birkenhead are part of Liverpool, only a snob would argue otherwise.

ie note the big grey blob surrounding the mersey - thats Liverpool
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Merseyside_outline_map_with_UK.png/504px-Merseyside_outline_map_with_UK.png

* Peel are from Bury, near manchester - they used to make textiles, thats where they started, so its only natural for them to play in their own backyard before moving further afield.

kat2

October 23rd, 2007, 11:12 PM

no one has said yet in this thread, why it bothers you all regarding the way wirral is? no one has said how Liverpool, and lets not forget this is a pre dominant Liverpool forum, so, how would Liverpool benefit from Wirral being part of greater Liverpool, because at the end of the day, thats all it would be, yes, I agree with regards to the old corporations, sadly, Morecambe ended up being part of Lancaster city, sadly now its a run down forgotten grot spot that no one wants to live in or invest in Morecambe has been destroyed by Lancaster city, apart from narrowing of some roads and a new market, that sums up twenty years, twenty years of taking Morecambe council tax payers money to furnish Lancaster city.
The same would happen here, Liverpool city council would bleed wirral dry and not invest in the area, sadly the sames happend to Manchester to an extent with some of its greater regions.
if anyone could point out a benfit?
after all, historically Liverpools councils have been racked by scandal of one form or another, and the paints yet to dry on the Mathew street fiasco, I mean come on chaps fancy leaving it so late to cancel that festival, the amount of foreign visitors that had visited the city for that event was shamefull, this is not the fault of the citizens of Liverpool more how it is managed.
kat:)
so, lets see some posting about how Liverpool would benfit from having Wirral as part of Greater Liverpool, because at the end of the day, thats all it ever would be, so no more pipe dreams, it would be part of greater Liverpool but, to what benefit?
as I have pointed out historically amalgamations have always been about cost cutting, indeed yoshefs posting about how the corporations, were reduced and amalgamated did little for wirral as a whole, indeed recent headlines over here about the lack of funding in other areas around wirral highlights your very point, so by amalgamation or wirral being part of greater Liverpool, what would the benefits be?
kat:nuts:

Babaloo

October 23rd, 2007, 11:25 PM

The Wirral has some decent beaches, that's true, and it has great views of downtown. Birkenhead up until the 1960s was more of an entity than 'Wirral' will ever be. Wirral isn't working. It's the economic basket case of Merseyside despite its pretensions. The Parade in Parkgate had quite a few peeling buildings last time I was there and the supermarket behind the Marine Lake in West Kirby is a Morrisons not a Waitrose. Parts of Wirral have more in common with Teeside than Deeside. If ever a place was in need of an urgent reality check it's our Wirral :nuts:

If Birkenhead and Wallasey can be joined together despite their historical rivalry/hostility, we should go the whole hog and call the whole place Livepool. It would be more honest.

Awayo

October 23rd, 2007, 11:31 PM

I dont see Knowsley or Sefton Councils proclaiming that they are Liverpool councils when they quite clearly are! I have yet to see a "Liverpool 08 - Capital of Culture" banner draped from Bootle town hall

Actually Sefton did fly a Liverpool 08 flag on its two town halls, prompting ignorant fulminations on aSouthport website someone on here discovered.

paulmac35

October 23rd, 2007, 11:35 PM

Actually Sefton did fly a Liverpool 08 flag on its two town halls, prompting ignorant fumilnations on Southport website someone on here discovered.

yeah i remember that! all the rimmers came out in arms didnt they! cant blame them in a way. they thought they were being invaded! but i have never seen it at bootle town hall (or huyton municipal buildings in knowsley) and i live around the corner from Oriel Road. think there is more chance of it being displayed on widnes town hall sadly, as halton gradually moves into the merseyside region.

Evertonian

October 23rd, 2007, 11:40 PM

Evertonian

October 23rd, 2007, 11:43 PM

Another way to look at it. If Wirral is part of Liverpool then move your premiership franchise to New Brighton instead of Kirkby, so I can roll out of bed on a saturday and be at the game.

What's that I hear?

"Over our dead bodies!"

Awayo

October 23rd, 2007, 11:47 PM

No, New Brighton makes as much sense as Kirkby. Or not, whatever the case may be.

paulmac35

October 23rd, 2007, 11:54 PM

am with you evertonian on the everton fc ground move. it should stay firmly where it is, in walton, at its present location. its an amazing ground, steeped in history. i must also be the only one on here who also wants liverpool fc to stay exactly where it is in anfield too at its present site. you simply cant recreate these grounds elsewhere (i have been to virtually all the new stadiums and none of them are a patch on the old ones). man city's eastlands stadium is like a morgue when compared to maine road. man united had the right idea in developing their ground exactly where they were. and it is easily the best stadium in the country. aston villas is great too. both are not surprisingly, old traditional stadiums but with excellent modern facilities.

a move to kirkby to a soulless location alongside a windswept motorway will be disastrous when you consider that 1/3 of everton's support is from the wirral. it will be like another riverside stadium (middlesbrough), 1/3 empty and devoid of atmosphere most weeks.

the present sites of both lfc and efc could easily be developed upto the neccesary capacity (50,000 to 65,000). everton's could have the biggest canteliver stand in the country with the huge space behind the park end stand. liverpool could easily expand their main stand back as there are row upon row of empty houses behind the ground.

paulmac35

October 24th, 2007, 12:03 AM

It doesn't matter what anyone on here thinks. the fact remains that the vast majority of people on the Wirral don't see themselves as part of Liverpool....a merseyside equal partnership is fine.

Why on earth would we want Liverpool's planning dept running our regeneration anyway ; )

Nothing would get built.

sadly i think liverpool, sefton, knowsley and wirral councils are as bad as each other. pretty useless on just about every important issue. a sign of the times i'm afraid.

interpreter

October 24th, 2007, 12:44 AM

kat2

October 24th, 2007, 12:48 AM

paulmac35

October 24th, 2007, 12:57 AM

Lets face ... i live on the Wirral... and think it's a good place to live... but that is because it has great local amenities.... Liverpool... North Wales... etc... There are things to do and see that make it a good place to live, its coastline for one... However when most people from the area ask where are you from.. saying Wirral, is usually rewarded with a scratch of the head moment.. until you mention its locality to Liverpool..... don't we love getting tribal. :horse:

thats because wirral doesnt exist! its just a strip of land. a man made artificial borough. just like knowsley and sefton on this side of the water. now birkenhead that is a place. a huge sprawling conurbation. steeped in history. a maritime history that dates back as far as liverpool's with which it shares a common history. the rest of the wirral are just liverpool descended suburbs of the last 100 years. no different to crosby, aintree, maghull, formby, rainhill, aughton, kirkby, huyton, halewood, whiston, yadda yadda. on this side of the estuary.

the golden vision

October 24th, 2007, 01:08 AM

thats because wirral doesnt exist! its just a strip of land. a man made artificial borough. just like knowsley and sefton on this side of the water. now birkenhead that is a place. a huge sprawling conurbation. steeped in history. a maritime history that dates back as far as liverpool's with which it shares a common history. the rest of the wirral are just liverpool descended suburbs of the last 100 years. no different to crosby, aintree, maghull, formby, rainhill, aughton, kirkby, huyton, halewood, whiston, yadda yadda. on this side of the estuary.

Not quite correct.Birkenhead was Liverpool's first overspill.It's maritime history only dates to 1820's with the opening of Laird's shipyard,Liverpool's maritime history spans 700 years.

paulmac35

October 24th, 2007, 01:09 AM

the metropolitan councils where scrapped by thatcher for being profligate - city regions are not the same thing

prior to merseyside county council there was Wallasey Corpy and Birkenhead Corpy - there was no "Wirral", it was purely geographical, like "Asia". These two overspill towns of Liverpool make up the bulk of what is now Wirral. I'm from Wallasey, my dad from birkenhead and my grandads family originated in old swan - and for lack of a better expression, "Wirral BC" can bugger off, Wallasey & Birkenhead are part of Liverpool, only a snob would argue otherwise.

ie note the big grey blob surrounding the mersey - thats Liverpool
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Merseyside_outline_map_with_UK.png/504px-Merseyside_outline_map_with_UK.png

* Peel are from Bury, near manchester - they used to make textiles, thats where they started, so its only natural for them to play in their own backyard before moving further afield.

that map is so out of date. as someone who lives in sefton, i cant think of any significant greenary (mores the pity) in the south end of the borough, other than bootle golf course and aintree race course. also where is melling? the part that backs onto kirkby is huge now with all the new housing estates. halewood also is shown in 1960's terms i think. when you look at it in an a-to-z, it doesnt look that tiny.why is kirkby industrial estate (2nd biggest in the country after trafford park), not shown as a built up area? or seaforth docks for that matter? also ellesmere port is shown as a separate identity to the rest of wirral when it is in fact it forms part continous built up birkenhead urban area.

eusebius

October 24th, 2007, 01:11 AM

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GN0810GJL._SS400_.jpg

So, there.

Evertonian

October 24th, 2007, 01:17 AM

WBC has it's bad points but I don't know a single person over here who'd want anything to do with LCC, if wallasey and/or birkenhead was amalgamated into Liverpool some how it would be very much against the wishes of the people.

Neptune and Peel have both said getting council co-operation on the Wirral is a doddle compared to the hassle one has to go through with Liverpool. There would be no benefit for people on the wirral whatsoever.

Already people from Wallasey complain that teir money goes to Birkenhead at their expense, what do you think would happen if Liverpool came into the mix? It would be more money going to your trams, your regeneration schemes....people in West Kirkby feel no connection or obligation to people in Toxteth (for example)

I don't understand what people are argueing for. Do they want to see a Liverpool City Region or do they want to just see the Wirral divided with Birkenhead and Wallasey going their seperate ways?

What is it these people (who i suspect aren't from the Wirral) want for US.

eusebius

October 24th, 2007, 01:26 AM

Merseyside has a genuinely appealing sound to it. Nothing wrong in carrying that to name Liverpool, Birkenhead, Wirral and the whole lot!

Evertonian

October 24th, 2007, 01:36 AM

Nothing wrong with the term 'Merseyside'. It accurately describes a place near the River which supplies it. Both Wirral and Liverpool have the obvious connections with it. It's what binds us and connects us together without either side being dominant....a true partnership. It is a name which does not give any indication of unequal status to either side.

The only reason not to like the (perfectly acceptable and accurate) term Merseyside and to hark for some imaginary Liverpool City Region (which has NEVER existed and is a new 21c concept, unlike the wirral which has a geographical and political history - however short and irrelevant scousers like to think it is)....is to make Liverpool seem larger and more important. it has no benefit for the people of the Wirral whatsoever and could actually be detrimental for the reasons Kat's mentioned.

It smacks of inferiority complex and wishing to be like the Mancs as well. We should be better than that.

Incidently you will NEVER get WBC to agree to it since their stated ambition is to get city status of its own one day.

yoshef

October 24th, 2007, 01:50 AM

that map is so out of date. as someone who lives in sefton, i cant think of any significant greenary (mores the pity) in the south end of the borough, other than bootle golf course and aintree race course. also where is melling? the part that backs onto kirkby is huge now with all the new housing estates. halewood also is shown in 1960's terms i think. when you look at it in an a-to-z, it doesnt look that tiny.why is kirkby industrial estate (2nd biggest in the country after trafford park), not shown as a built up area? or seaforth docks for that matter? also ellesmere port is shown as a separate identity to the rest of wirral when it is in fact it forms part continous built up birkenhead urban area.

i know m8, was only meant to demonstrate where all the people live on wirral ie all crowded over towards liverpool city centre

the golden vision

October 24th, 2007, 01:50 AM

Toadboy

October 24th, 2007, 10:17 AM

Half Man Half Biscuit, The Coral, Hamilton Square, the Victorian ferry terminals, the coastline, the Merseyrail served suburbia, Jegsy Dodd, Bidston Hill, the promanades, Port Sunlight Village, Oxton, the tunnel ventilation shafts, Cammall Laird, the Irish Sea ferry terminal, the oil tankers at Tranmere giving the river big scale maritime presence etc.

Liverpools Left Bank has a lot to offer and it's future potential is enormous.

JUXTAPOL

October 24th, 2007, 10:23 AM

I don't think the idea is to rename or merge the Wirral into some mega Liverpool area, thus wiping away the name Wirral and all it's place names and identity. Rather the idea is to have the Wirral, Sefton, St Helens, Knowsley, Halton and Liverpool promoted better with the name Liverpool rather than the lesser known Merseyside.

The Wirral cannot become a city, aren't Birkenhead going to be up in arms about this aim of the "WBC" to wipe away the historic towns and their identity. Birkenhead can become a city if it grows big enough.

Gareth

October 24th, 2007, 01:39 PM

No one so far has posted what the benefits to Liverpool would be? remember we talked about how the old corporations became amalgamated, so that in effect, wirral council controls wirral, we have found this to be counter productive by recent events in the news ! so, by making something bigger how does that make it better? especially when the net effect is to reduce spending by national government?
so, lets see comment about how Liverpool would benefit? lets see joined up thinking on this? I have pointed out that areas around Manchester became part of Greater Manchester, and that generally they have not benefited. How would the people of Sefton for example benfit by a centrally controlled Liverpool City? how would the people of Sefton feel if Liverpool central offices decided they wanted to go to shanghi again, just to recap on evens, how would you feel or benefit from Liverpool going to these places and spending your council tax money? if you lived in these areas? whats Liverpool councils plans for outside the city center, whats its projections for these areas?
for example whats written in stone as projected to being done?
All the investment I see in Liverpool at the moment isnt council financed, its private sector, so whats your council tax money going on? can anyone on here tell me whats happening in each area outside the city center with regards to redevelopment? whats the long term stratergy?
so, lets look at not how Liverpool could swallow up and squander more money but lets look at the Liverpool you have now, please post about each area outside Liverpool city center thats being developed and what the projected dates are for each area outside.
kat
I bet no one can really come back with anything of any substance, no one yet has come back and said how Liverpool would benefit from taking greater responsiblity for a larger footprint taking into account its present footprint and how its invested its tax payers cash in the past.
:)

You don't get it, Kat, and probably never will. Some people can see past parochial political constructs such as Wirral or Knowsley and some just can't. I'm really not sure what the point is that you're trying to make here. You go on about spending and 'Sefton' residents feeling upset about a pan-Liverpool (or mirzysaide kidda laa! if you prefer) council funding their leader to go to Shanghai (a rather random example) because they feel they're Seftonians. There's no such thing. Sefton contains two main parts; a resort town that is near Liverpool and connected to it and a part of it's city region; and the rest is practically all of Liverpool's northern suburbs. Knowsley is essentially most of Liverpool's eastern suburbs, with my home village of West Derby being the only main suburb in the east that actually comes under the randomly defined City of Liverpool.

Wirral is no different and is equally as an artificial construct as Sefton and Knowsley are. The concept of a single political unit called Wirral, was created in the seventies, along with Sefton and Knowsley and also 'Merseyside'. Even then, the council doesn't cover the whole of the Wirral, exactly the same way Liverpool Council doesn't cover the whole of Liverpool, which, hilariously, includes the whole of the Wirral. At this point Kat, it should be apparent to you that council areas are drawn up by civil servants and, annoyingly, don't usually reflect social, economic or cultural realities.

The Wirral is almost entirely all Liverpool suburbia. It's main district is Birkenhead, which is inner-city but has no downtown. You don't get inner-cities without a core. In this case, the core is on the other side of the river. It is the western compass point which completes the Toxteth/Kensington/Kirkdale inner-city circle around the downtown. It's not a separate town in the sense that Southport is, and perhaps, St Helens.

The fact is, that it is all one city, regardless of what lines the civil servants draw on the map. These lines don't change behaviour and the inter-reliance on all the city boroughs exists and had done for a long time before Merseyside County Council (and Wirral is still part of 'Merseyside' Kat, by the way), was created. The Wirral was never one entity in itself. Birkenhead and Heswall had little to do with one another. They have more to do with one another these days, because they are both in the same city region - Liverpool's.

Gareth

October 24th, 2007, 01:44 PM

By the way, do people not class the City of Westminster as part of London, Kowloon as part of Hong Kong, the Bronx as part of New York? Or is it different for cities that aren't provincial backwaters?

Veinticinco

October 24th, 2007, 07:07 PM

Kat - Wirral already is part of 'Greater Liverpool' AKA 'Merseyside'. Lines on a map mean nothing in reality.

^^ What Gareth said..

kat2

October 24th, 2007, 09:48 PM

Joe the red

October 24th, 2007, 10:13 PM

paulmac35

October 24th, 2007, 11:09 PM

Kat. Why don't you go and read the Liverpool out of the northwest thread (stuff by the likes of Poli and Gareth and ignore the Welsh nationalist and manc rants and scaremongering).

Liverpool and the Wirral are codependent. A substantial proportion of Wirral's population are 1st and 2nd generation Scousers (not at all like your Manchester example).

Southport is 17 miles away. Wallasey and Birkenhead are 1 mile away.

30000 Wirralians gain employment in Liverpool.

As for your self-mocking about being a shipyard, most Liverpool based SSCers have been complimentary to the Wirral albeit at times jocular fashion.

Liverpool has nothing to fear from the Wirral but both regions would be stronger for having close ties.

exactly. forget postcode snobbery. and this whats in it for us stance? no one can argue that liverpool city council has been a basket case of an authority in the last 30 years (but then again so are sefton, knowsley and wirral councils from what i can see). the only chance for the urban core to prosper in the future is to get this city region concept going. with all the councils working together and not in competition with one another. ie. proper transport plans, more crossings of the mersey, abolition of the tunnel tolls, pooled education/skills training resources, etc.

we should take a leaf out of gateshead's relationship with newcastle. similar to our both sides of the river city. at one time, differing counties (northumberland and durham), but that is now a total irrelevence. all are proud geordies. i.e. one city centre, one conurbation,

yoshef

October 24th, 2007, 11:29 PM

Joe the red

October 24th, 2007, 11:39 PM

BTW Kat, your cheaper insurance is down to the prejudices of insurance companies. Your CH postcode is not somehow a sort of cocoon and does not make a house less likely to be burgled or for you to have you car stolen or have a crash. The risks are the same as before and your premiums should reflect this but don't.

Veinticinco

October 24th, 2007, 11:57 PM

Gareth, I suggest you check, my post code is ch, chester, not liverpool which is what it was in the past. Your very wrong by the way, in just the same way as Liverpool would be up in arms if it became part of Manchester!
as for populations isnt Preston in Lancashire a city? wasnt that a small town before? Birkenhead's population is growing all the time and with recent talks with Peels it wont be too long before new housing, new shopping and new business's are built here on the wirral, the bulk of which will be in the birkenhead area. Bidston moss will see a large shopping complex to rival that of the trafford center!
When I posted, I did ask from my post that we talk about the gains Liverpool would make from having wirral as part of its greater region, and so far, no one has posted any vaild point, trouble is Liverpudians are at it again there trying to run wirral down, we on wirral pride our selves in our own little peninsula, part of chester/cheshire (cheaper insurance too thanks to dropping the L4 post code)! Liverpudians should rejoice in their citys prosperity, instead by en large you tend to run it down, year after year I see sadly the same thing, the "whats in it for me attitude" or, " I aint moving out, its the community",
sing up your city be proud of it its a wonderfull place, leave wirral to be just what wirral is, a peninsula, but a peninsula where we are happy.
we as of yet dont have investment on the scale that you do in Liverpool so why should little ole wirral bother you? come on lets be constructive, give some sound reasons why wirral would be better off as part of Liverpool, we dont have anything to offer Liverpool after all? I mean you have southport on your door step, wirrals just a ship repair yard.
so, lets see what positive things could be gained. As I have said in the past, when Lancaster city took over Morecambe town council, it stripped it of everything, very little investment, thats what happens in amalgamations, its a cost cutting exercise.
kat:):):)

Lol what the fuck? Chester? What's that? That's about 20 miles away. Liverpool is about 1-5 miles away depending where you live in Birkenhead/Wallasey. This is like people in Salford saying they have nothing to do with Manchester, except even worse! The postcode has nothing to do with anything except that the post sorting headqaurters for Wirral is in Chester, that really doesn't mean a thing. I'm born and raised on the Wirral but I've never heard of this 'pride'. If anyone asks, then I'm from Liverpool. If somebody from Liverpool asks, who knows the metropolis more then I'm from Wallasey. Please don't affiliate me with Chester or Chesire, it's plain for any idiot with eyes and a brain to see that this is part of Liverpool, I feel no connection what-so-ever to Chester. Sorry to be rude kat but you're ignorant as fudge. You don't even know where you live, a CH postcode doesn't mean you're from Cheshire or Chester, you're from Merseyside, which is the exact same thing as Greater Manchester - a county with one main center (Liverpool) and a few smaller complementing ones (Birkenhead, Bootle, St Helens).

http://www.multimap.com/

start:Wallasey, Merseyside
end:Chester, Cheshire
total distance: 23.82 miles (38.33 km)

start:Wallasey, Merseyside
end:Liverpool, Merseyside
total distance: 5.67 miles (9.12 km)

start:Birkenhead, Merseyside
end:Chester, Cheshire
total distance: 18.93 miles (30.46 km)

start:Birkenhead, Merseyside
end:Liverpool, Merseyside
total distance: 3.08 miles (4.96 km)

Distances would actually be shorter but it's done by road and roads dont go straight. Notice how Chester is in a whole other county whereas Liverpool is in the same county. Even the government with their messed up boundaries can see we are as one!

See the difference?
http://www.mccr.nhs.uk/images/newmapsmall.jpg

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 12:18 AM

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 12:20 AM

It will never happen anyway I guarantee you and the more you insult us by calling us irelevant the further away your enlarged Liverpool becomes.

Maybe put your own house in order first with the highest binge drinking rates, highest smoking rates, worst recycling rates, worst city in the country for getting anything done on the planning front...as has been seen countless times on this site with the dropped projects highlighted.

I dread to think of LCC being in charge of Wirral Waters.

"Peel are planning to build a waterfront on the others side that could potentially rival ours, lets get it canned".

Veinticinco

October 25th, 2007, 12:24 AM

I think you guys are missing the point that we don't want to be part of a Liverpool dominated city region.

We want to be equal partners.

You can't force the issue as it'll just create resentment.

Why not leave things the way they are? It's not doing Liverpool any harm the way things are at the moment. We're talking about record inward investment in Liverpool at the moment.

I agree to an extent. But the truth is we aren't equal are we? It's like Brooklyn being on equal terms with Manhattan. Liverpool is the undeniable center of Merseyside. Changing Merseyside to Greater Liverpool would actually benefit Wirral. Nobody has really heard of Merseyside. Liverpool is much, much more known across the world, it's one of the most famous UK cities alongside London and Edinburgh, Wirral could benefit from the brand name alone. It wouldn't be for the sake of comparing dick sizes with Manchester.

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 12:32 AM

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 12:35 AM

....another way of looking at it is why not build the Wirral or Merseyside brand up?

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 12:37 AM

Biggest brand in the north is Manchester. Perhaps you would like us all to be renamed "Manchester North West Region"???

I imagine the response in Liverpool would be "fuck right off"

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 12:42 AM

We want to be equal partners.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

That is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Where is Birkenhead anyway? I've forgotten where or what the fugg it is to be honest.

How and why would you call yourself an "Evertonian" and not even know, worse still, deny that you're a type of Scouser??

Deeply wierd shit.

yoshef

October 25th, 2007, 12:51 AM

That depends on your perception.

In certain areas the name of 'Liverpool' has a truly awful sterotyped reputation. When most southerners I have spoken too have told me how they imagine Liverpool is like it's always negative and they always imagine a deprived city full of crime and overun by gangsters.

Yes we should fight against this and not accept it, but why should people from West kriby (for example) have to bear it when many of them feel no connection whatsoever with Liverpool.

By the way I am a scouser.

That is the main reason the snobs on the wirral want to distance themselves from Liverpool. Lets face facts here, some parts of Wallasey eg Seacombe, Birkenhead North, The Ford Estate are as bad as anywhere in Liverpool. I'm from Wallasey myself, but im not delusional enough to think that the wirral is anything but a part of liverpool. Wirral MBC is run by idiots (i used to work there years ago ;) ) they've currently got a £60 million hole in their budget (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2007/10/16/wirral-council-facing-60m-budget-black-hole-and-massive-cuts-64375-19957470/)

Wirral MBC has shafted Wallasey big time - it kindly dumped a lot of Birkenhead Norths "nicest" residents into the poulton/gorsey lane/somerville area of Wallasey a few years back, (thanks btw), and that whole area is going downhill, fast. its concentrating on Birkenhead, wallasey is an afterthought to them anyway.

paulmac35

October 25th, 2007, 12:52 AM

I think you guys are missing the point that we don't want to be part of a Liverpool dominated city region and you can't make a population do what they don't want to do.

We want to be equal partners.

You can't force the issue as it'll just create resentment.

Why not leave things the way they are? It's not doing Liverpool any harm the way things are at the moment. We're talking about record inward investment in Liverpool at the moment.

Your a funny fellow evertonian. You harp on all the time about hundreds of years of distinct separate Wirral identity to that of Liverpools. Despite the fact that it has been proven time and again on here with various statistics, that the present modern day 330,000 populated Wirral is due entirely to the huge growth of Liverpool as a port in the late 1700's. You even admitted that your father is from Liverpool like probably 80% of Wirrals population i.e. Direct descendents of Liverpool people moving away from the inner city to the Wirral over the last 150 years. No different in fact to this side where they moved out to Aughton, Maghull, Crosby, Formby, Kirkby, Huyton, Halewood, Rainhill, etc.

This is why Murkeyslide should have been called Greater Liverpool just like in the Greater Manchester model. As it is based almost entirely on Liverpool's conurbation on both sides of the Mersey, (along with St Helens, which grew as a separate entity originally, but still a part of the Liverpool conurbation itself).

This is why it is different to the likes of West Yorkshire county which contained 3 cities in Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield and the country's largest town in Huddersfield.

I think the majority of Wirral people support the Merseyside brand. It was even proved in recent MORI polls, which even included the middle class outposts of Heswall and West Kirby and the like.

It is not about domination from Liverpool town hall. The future has to be about the 6 boroughs signed up for the city region plan, working together on the many projects to bring some much needed wealth to this place at last. We are certainly due a change in fortune after a 40 year slump in the local economy.

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 12:54 AM

When I posted, I did ask from my post that we talk about the gains Liverpool would make from having wirral as part of its greater region, and so far, no one has posted any vaild point, trouble is Liverpudians are at it again there trying to run wirral down, we on wirral pride our selves in our own little peninsula, part of chester/cheshire (cheaper insurance too thanks to dropping the L4 post code)!kat:):):)

No offence Kat, but can you read?

You keep on asserting that no-one's given any reason for us to drop the nimby 80's bullshit some of you hold dear.
Actually, I did it quite clearly (and accurately) in flagging up this frankly dumb state of affairs.

If you're so "separate" why do people like you have to post on a Liverpool forum, as if you believe us that a Liverpool forum includes your community?

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 12:59 AM

And actually the reason this does matter is that given the fact that size is indeed very important in the realpolitik of National and International urban affairs, there are few cities in the World wealthy enough to uphold a quant pretension that half their of their city doesn't exist. This has serious economic ramifications in terms of central spending, investment, clout, so on and so forth..

This modern-day not-quite-anything, insignificance of Wirral, it's plazzie-type naffness would be remedied at a stroke: official and politcal acceptance of the economic reality- Wirral is Liverpool, Liverpool is Wirral. No more jokes.

Here you are Dear.

paulmac35

October 25th, 2007, 01:02 AM

I agree to an extent. But the truth is we aren't equal are we? It's like Brooklyn being on equal terms with Manhattan. Liverpool is the undeniable center of Merseyside. Changing Merseyside to Greater Liverpool would actually benefit Wirral. Nobody has really heard of Merseyside. Liverpool is much, much more known across the world, it's one of the most famous UK cities alongside London and Edinburgh, Wirral could benefit from the brand name alone. It wouldn't be for the sake of comparing dick sizes with Manchester.

Thats a good anology. Brooklyn and Manhattan might be on opposite sides of the river in New York, But they are still New York. Its like Istanbul. Half of it is in Europe, half in Asia! But all is Istanbul. Its just cival servents decread that Liverpool (and Manchester) would be broken into many different councils back in the 1970's. 1 on the Wirral side (or 2 if you count Ellesmere Port/Neston), 3 on this side. But its still one city. One downtown (as Gareth might say), one conurbation, one transport authority (Merseytravel), one police/fire force,

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 01:05 AM

Your a funny fellow evertonian. You harp on all the time about hundreds of years of distinct separate Wirral identity to that of Liverpools. Despite the fact that it has been proven time and again on here with various statistics, that the present modern day 330,000 populated Wirral is due entirely to the huge growth of Liverpool as a port in the late 1700's.

A HUGE section of Liverpool society and descendence is Irish. Should we rename Liverpool part of a Dublin city region? Daft argument.

I'm a proud scouser. Son of a Liverpool docker. born and bred in Liverpool. I have chosen to live in Wallasey. I can see having lived here a long time that it has it's own history and sense of place. We are proud to have such a wonderful city so close and we feel close affinity with it, but just like a lof of Australians feel a sense of love towards britain, there is a belief that this is a different place with it's own culture.

People dismissing this as irrelevant is highly insulting.

This is why Murkeyslide should have been called Greater Liverpool just like in the Greater Manchester model. As it is based almost entirely on Liverpool's conurbation on both sides of the Mersey

Except there has NEVER been a geograhical or political 'Liverpool' entitiy on the Wirral. It has been the Wirral for 30 odd years and before that was the ancient Celtic hamlets of Wallasey and Birkenhead. Never had anything to do with Liverpool. You can't wipe out thousands of years of local history.

What will happen if the Liverpool City Region becomes fact?

Wirral people will argue its a completely made up, non-entity that has only lasted a few months.

I think the majority of Wirral people support the Merseyside brand. It was even proved in recent MORI polls, which even included the middle class outposts of Heswall and West Kirby and the like.

We do yes. We have no urge to change it.

It is not about domination from Liverpool town hall. The future has to be about the 6 boroughs signed up for the city region plan, working together on the many projects to bring some much needed wealth to this place at last. We are certainly due a change in fortune after a 40 year slump in the local economy.

It will be about diverting funding to Liverpool and it's trouble spots and various schemes.

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 01:11 AM

TOXTETH, WEST DERBY, CLUBMOOR AND KEITH'S WINE BAR.

I WANT THEM ALL TREATED AS SEPARATE AND EQUAL TO LIVERPOOL, AND ERR IT SHOULD HAPPEN ANYWAY COS THEIR INSURANCE PREMIUMS'LL BE CHEAPER OK??!!!

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 01:17 AM

I'd also like Toxteth to be treated the same as the city of Liverpool.

Perhaps you might want to put some pressure on Liverpool Vision to get starting that new company they said they were starting to get the investment spread more equally.

Another reason for the Wirral to fear Liverpool having central control and being part of a Liverpool City Region. None of the wealth filters out cos it's all about appeasing land grabbing corporations and yuppies.

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 01:20 AM

A HUGE section of Liverpool society and descendence is Irish. Should we rename Liverpool part of a Dublin city region? Daft argument.

I think that should of read "daft analogy."

Evertonian, this isn't a personalised attack.
I like your posts, your arguments are generally sound and I think your general "worldview" is intelligent, thoughtful, and largely the one I also hold..

You are so wrong about this one though it actually really surprises me.

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 01:24 AM

I just don't buy this "because loads of us are over there it's Liverpool" pitch.

Perhaps L1 should be called The Wirral between the working hours of 9-5 then?

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 01:26 AM

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 01:29 AM

Pobbie

October 25th, 2007, 01:31 AM

West Derby used to be more important than Liverpool. It's now effectively a suburb of Liverpool. Big deal. Most people associate the Wirral with Liverpool as it is. An idealistic city region based around Liverpool is supported primarily for economic reasons, with greater cohesion between the economic core and its hinterland. The core in this case is the city centre, and Wirral is part of the hinterland (along with West Derby). It's hardly scouse imperialism or anything, regardless of whether or not you support the notion of different political boundaries for Liverpool or Merseyside.

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 01:35 AM

I'm happy with the situation the way it is so are the vast majority of people over here. It's only people from liverpool who seem to want to enforce it. i don't see why it has to change.

For believing this you'd think I was a lunatic.

Explain to me one way it would beneift the Wirral to be tied into the Liverpool "brand" considering the horrific stereotypes.

"Self pity city", etc.

Yes of course, compared to Wirral's famou........erm well what is Wirral's superior brand here?!
It's funny cos I thought you were Britain's most invisable area almost totally due to your misguided "independance" without actually having anything to be independant about.

Again, just remind me here for everyone reading, where is Wirral?

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 01:36 AM

Liverpool used to be more important than Manchester. it's not considered anywhere near as powerful or important anymore and Manchester is deemed by many to be the capital of the North West Region.

Therefore it should be the core with Liverpool as one of it's hinterlands.

Acceptable???

Pobbie

October 25th, 2007, 01:56 AM

No - Liverpool has a significant economic core of its own. Wirral hasn't.

kung_fuzi

October 25th, 2007, 03:54 PM

The only time Scousers use the term Merseyside is when referring to the Derby.I'm from Bootle and i've never ever said i'm from merseyside,i'm from Liverpool.Liverpool is a world famous city and it shouldn't be demoted under the umbrella of region nobody internationally has heard of.Merseyside has to go whether Wirral comes along or not.

And even that's a relatively new thing,it used to just be called the 'Derby'.

JUXTAPOL

October 25th, 2007, 03:58 PM

I was allways willing Tranmere to get into the Prem league when they looked like getting close over many years, that would have been interesting.

Gareth

October 25th, 2007, 04:22 PM

Gareth, I suggest you check, my post code is ch, chester, not liverpool which is what it was in the past.

I've only read up to here, Kat. There's no point reading the rest of what you have written. This is proof alone that you don't understand anything about how local governance works. No offense, but I've been through these naive and stupid beliefs people have about postcodes having anything to do with local government before and I'm tired of repeating it when a newbie comes along with the same misapprehensions. As Joe the Red suggests, read up on what's been said by myself and others on this subject. The North West thread is a good suggestion but I'd say Evertonian's anti-city region thread is better, as I gave it all in that but, as I can see below, he still doesn't get it. But start with researching what postcodes actually are first and then I'll entertain you.

Gareth

October 25th, 2007, 04:31 PM

By the way I am a scouser.

You are not a scouser, and I don't say that because you live on the Wirral.

Scarecrow

October 25th, 2007, 04:32 PM

Southport is in Preston by that logic, Kat. :ohno:

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 05:07 PM

....another way of looking at it is why not build the Wirral or Merseyside brand up?

Because there is no Wirral or Merseyside brand to talk up.

Let the leader of your own County Council explain it to you, from today's FT.

"Steve Foulkes, the leader of Wirral council, says there is now no quarrel with the idea that Liverpool is the "brand" to promote at international level. "We have all come to accept that cities are being seen as key economic drivers," he says. Mr Foulkes and other local council leaders now meet more regularly amid talk of introducing collective, cabinet-style decision-making across the region. "The government will only listen if we talk with a united front," Mr Foulkes says."

Essentially confirming at an official level that this "Wirral" concept, is effectively (yet unofficially) a social, cultural, economical, part of a Greater Liverpool.

Case closed I'd say, the only outstanding issue being a long overdue change of status.

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 05:16 PM

You are not a scouser, and I don't say that because you live on the Wirral.

Well, that depends what definition you prefer surely.

Historical?
Technical?
Popular?
Revisionist?

My own defintion has nothing to do with this "being born within 100yards of the Waterloo Road", more to do with hailing provenance from the, as yet, theoretical "Greater Liverpool" area: revisionist, in other words.

This would be I suppose different to the popular definition, that of someone born within these incorrectly drawn city limits as are.

To all bar the most pedantic , an Everton birth usually qualifies.

Gareth

October 25th, 2007, 05:54 PM

Evertonian goes on weird mini-rants about "getting your own house in order" because our house is full of bing drinking, rape, incest and bad denistry, something he isn't a part of. because his land, which exists mostly in his own mind, is totally separate and has none of this human decay. Moaning about "you lot" and moving fucking toll boths to "your side", in Shankhill Estate-style language means he's not a scouser in my eyes.
I know loads of people, not even from this metropolis who I'd consider to be scousers. It has fuck all to do with either accent or random council boundaries.

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 07:51 PM

...came from a Wirralian Separatist.

I was probably around 6.

We'd just enjoyed a family day out supporting the Wirralian economy by visiting New Brighton.

As custom demanded, the trip always ended with the long, long walk down the Promenade to catch the Seacombe. Exciting stuff.

At around half-distance, one of our number dared ask a passing senior denizen of the bitter Wirral Separatist Movement what the time was.

The totally blanked the question, barging through us and muttering "Liverpool" this and "Liverpool" that.

Our parents laughed somewhat surprised. I hadn't a clue what the commotion was about until the elderly man stopped at 25metres and stood there barking at the top of voice,
"Go back to the other side! Scouse #####tards! You're not welcome here!!"

Not exactly Great Expectations this tale, but as I say, my first ever experience of the malign effect of misplaced Wirralism upon the mentally unsound.

FIN.

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 09:13 PM

You are not a scouser, and I don't say that because you live on the Wirral.

The argument is lost when you have to resort to personal insults.

liverpolitan

October 25th, 2007, 09:28 PM

I think you guys are missing the point that we don't want to be part of a Liverpool dominated city region and you can't make a population do what they don't want to do.

Who is we? I know loads of people from Wirral who regard views like yours as parochial and cranky. You live in Liverpool city region - that is a geographic fact. If you choose to regard yourself as "dominated" by Liverpool City Council that is up to you - but it's rubbish, the city is relatively small and constitutes a minority of the population even of core metropolitan area.

What happens next is that arrangements need to be improved over the next few years, and that work is already underway. No-one is making a new region up - it's about getting better governance over a city region that has existed for over a century. We live in a democracy, where people get votes, and the notion that 400 odd thousand people living in the city area can dominate a million or a million and a half other people (in the wider met area) is simply paranoid nonsense. Get over it.

I think you need to open up your mind to this, it is closed and reviewing this thread it doesn't seem as if you are really listening to what others are saying.

New Brighton - where if I am right you say you live - is part of Liverpool - always has been, always will be. It was founded and developed as a suburb of Liverpool, for Liverpool traders. It exists as a part of Liverpool. It is Liverpool's main beach resort and residential area.

kat2

October 25th, 2007, 09:42 PM

kat2

October 25th, 2007, 09:48 PM

*Liverpools main beach resort is southport, say southport! *g*!
Liverpool cant govern itself let alone try and take on more responsibility, no doubt this will be proven again next year. Historically look at your surrounding regions only recently have things started to improve but off the back of private investment, no one yet has told me how your Liverpool city council has done so much to improve and invest in the areas where you live, oh, I forgott somebody mentioned paint and banners to cover buildings not complete! well spent.
oh and Liverpoltian, really you know loads of people on wirral that would love to be part of a screwed up liverpool region, I dont think so, how can I say this well, I know nearly all wirral councillors by name and they know me and its not their view that the people of wirral would wish to be governed by Liverpool, wirral struggles with Wirral borough council beleive it or not, some would like the old corporations back because they invested at Local level in each area on the wirral.
kat*

liverpolitan

October 25th, 2007, 09:51 PM

Kat - it is called "agglomeration" by economists - and in normal language it means that the bigger the city, the richer. It's not always true: there are richer small cities than large cities, eg Winchester is richer than Birmingham. But generally, for metropolitan areas, it's true. Why? Because bigger markets have greater gravitational pull, and tend to be more productive because of competition.

There is research that shows that good co-ordination of metropolitan areas increases their wealth-generating capacity. It means the various markets can work more efficiently, eg the labour and skills market, the housing market, and that transport and other systems can be best managed. The Government isn't sponsoring improved city regional governance for fun, but because there is good evidence that the big city regions (Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham) will become richer as a result. Don't we want to be better off?

The evidence is referred to in the recently published Sub-National review, although actually you do need to read some source materials by economists to get a real picture on this. The evidence is clear: co-ordination of city regions produces more jobs, more investment, more wealth AND lower costs. Why do inward investment in 8 town halls when you can do it in one shared one?

Liverpool city region needs to maximise its co-ordination (in areas such as inward investment, skills training, transport, economic development) and ensure it is not under-bounded (eg by excluding towns that were separated for political reasons, such as Skem and Ellesemere Port).

If you want more jobs, higher wages, better health, longer lifespans, and happiness - you will support city regional co-ordination. The type of primitive parochialism you and Evertonian are trumpeting makes everyone poorer, less healthy, less likely to be employed, more likely do die earlier. I don't like Wirral being relatively poor, or Liverpool, or Knowsley - I want the whole city region to be rich. And democratic - a city regional structure gives Wirral people a say in how the whole city region they live and work in is run, not just their own area.

kat2

October 25th, 2007, 10:04 PM

Ah so, I get it your saying you could really do with our council tax money because you dont like us to have control over our own destiny, your talking rubbish, I have seen and can take you to see too, how areas have been plundered, when you ask people outside Manchester city do they like being part of "greater Manchester", they say no, and no, theres no investment in these smaller areas, yes it means Manchester has more money or so called pulling power but it goes to the core Manchester City.
Morecambe is the same go and talk to any local in Morecambe say to them was it a good idea to become part of Lancaster, and you would suffer verbal abuse, many morecambe councillors lost their jobs council offices moved to over five miles away the people of Morecambe are sick to the back teeth of reading about new investment in Lancaster, or how Lancaster approves buisness's to flurish in Lancaster but not in Morecambe. So no, so far I see no credible effect of what your talking about, and I have lived in the areas I talk about, including Manchester and areas around Manchester that became part of greater Manchester. I have also Lived in Liverpool for quite a few years but saw very poor performance from Liverpool city council all I got was higher council tax bills, I though enoughs enough the bills kept going up but I saw nothing for my council tax money.
Poorer, ! your joking, yes if you live in Liverpool, peels are fed up with Liverpool aready they find your council very hard to work with, where as, as I have said over here on the wirral the inks dry on some 30 year deals infact one of the guys whom told me said I wont be around to see all this take place *sighs* but thats forward investment, we have recently done well with the ship yard, New brighton is at last being done up and peels have been over talking about their proposals and when they would like to start. Health, wasnt Liverpool going to pilot some new health center schemes that you lot threw out? More Jobs, where? all I can see at the moments a shopping center? and a few offices.
die early is to do with social education of health something that sadly is lacking because fast foods are convienient and cheaper. Wirral does a good job considering its size I am alot happier here than I was in Liverpool, your council tax crippled me and I never saw where it went.
so, longer life spans isnt going to happen soon and its pandemic across the UK according to recent government stats.
Liverpool should do just fine screwing up Liverpool wirral on the other hand screws itself so were fine too! *grin*

kat

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 10:15 PM

Hey Kat you haven't mentioned council tax for at least one full minute. What's wrong??

kat2

October 25th, 2007, 10:19 PM

*grin* well, thank god their building what they told you was a canal link, shshshs we really know its a moat to keep you all in ! *g*
kat
erm for the record "council tax" Yuk
say poll tax:ohno: erm ok we stick with council tax:bash:
kat:lol:

Joe the red

October 25th, 2007, 10:24 PM

Kat. For the love of God read the Liverpool out of the North West thread or if you don't believe what Poli, Gareth et al are espousing due to some parochial naivety read what respected independent academics and economists say on the subject.

The Greater Liverpool area requires a coordinated approach to attract inward investment, develop transport, infrastructure etc.

It's not about Warren Bradley running everywhere from Wigan to Rhyl, Ormskirk to Winsford. It is about cooperation and codependency.

kat2

October 25th, 2007, 10:47 PM

I am not interested in reading corrupt rubbish, I base my facts off personal experience, and to me thats the best you can get in any walk of life, not what silly idiots want you to beleive, I base it off Living in these areas, I base it off watching incompitance of councils that squander money !
Go take a look around greater Manchester, go to Morecambe, Hell, I'll even track down the old Mayor ask him! *lol* I worked for Morecambe and then Lancaster city council in stock control, Yup, all about cutting corners saving money and making people believe its good. Dont beleive the hype! getting rid of councils and having one central controller means the smaller guy misses out, its a sound fact in business, look at giants like tescos and asda and how the squeezed out the small guy, (watcha talking about kat?) well lets call Liverpool the asda and tesco, and lets call wirral the small business, Yup agreed Liverpool has more buying power (your tesco and asda dont forget) but what about the small guy,! hey fact of life, your not competitive were not listening to you cos the big guys got more pulling power, but what about my local things things dear to me, your tesco and asda are fine, but what about the small business guy? isnt that a true fact of life too? wouldnt you agree that tesco and asda dominate the markets? it would be no different if we took away those business names and put city names in there places, so yeah, being big does attract but at a price to the small, they both sadly dont go hand in glove, they never have and never will.
Look at the state of Toxteth and the riots, *sighs* the council couldnt even be bothered to look after its own,!
In business, I have not yet met a person alive that would not agree with me, that theres always a trade off, and its how much your prepared to trade off, and so far if I was a business person, I would not see Liverpool as a safe bet
kat:)

Joe the red

October 25th, 2007, 11:13 PM

I have absolutely no idea how to answer that. Poli, VT anybody Heeelllppp!

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 11:14 PM

Villiers, talk some sense please, show me where this has taken place and how it has benefited any area in the United Kingdom, ? Manchester it certainly didnt work when areas around it which were once part of cheshire became part of "greater Manchester", Preston, which was a town for many years is now a city! *lol* and the size of that!! Morecambe council dissapeared, did it help the residents of Morecambe once they became Lancaster city? no, I know my parents live there, the areas a dump and many that live in Morecambe will tell you, the towns been plundered by Lancaster city, poor investment and promotion by the council, means its not the place you would want to settle. With regards to those quoting "Merseyside", yes I agree it is confusing especially when most companys I buy products from expect an L post code, three or four years ago the post office sent us all little stickers, which it gave our correct postal deleivery address, we were told not to use Merseyside but instead, for example, I live on Birkenhead, Prenton Wirral and then the post code. Many postal companys still run the old postal system some times when I order products it flags up Merseyside!
thats not the issue though is it, as I have said before, what would be in it for Liverpool, after all, your councils brilliant at duking things up good style, "I cant wait till next year" should be interesting to see if they keep their promise and you dont have to pay for it out of your council tax.!!!
so, show examples not hear say of proven case models where you can actually prove amalgamation into one central area works, because by n large thats what your trying to say, but to be honest, I could never see it working, Liverpool cant even provide for its own people wheres all the new housing development? which areas are or have been mapped out for development, oh and by the way wirral has been Mapped out with the council and Peels, but over a 30 year period., the ink is dry on the paper in that respect, Land sold, houses knocked down ready.
I read in todays Birkenhead News, that the head honcho at Beetham, whom obviously has taste also resides here in Birkenhead, so if its good enough for Beefy its good enough for us too.
were vikings after all, hmmm...looks for boat or ship or well.
point of the matter is I havent seen anything yet to prove its a good and viable idea being bigger doesnt mean more investment it just means governments spending less on administration, would it bring the council tax down? nooo,
I like Liverpool always have I even lived in Cressington Park for a while but you get more for your money over here council tax is cheaper too. I am very pleased that after all these years Liverpool is finally getting a well over due renaisance, but lets not forget one thing chaps, whats your council doing for you? most of this investment is private money, whats the council doing with your council tax money?
kat:)]
stands off soap box

Point No1.
It's very hard to read someone when they type at length, without having the common decency to do so in properly constructed sentences (with paragraphs, spelling, grammar and punctuation).
You could get all this corrected in Word if you can't be arsed doing it yourself.

Point. No2.
When someone's so in denial of the actual facts, it's really extremely hard to know where to begin, let alone decide whether there's any real point in doing so in the first place.

However, because I'm a nice person I'll spare you a little time.

To begin with, I think how I'd sum up your objections to most issues is that you don't really believe in tax full stop. You don't actually believe in contributing. You fail to grasp the concept. Because of this stupidity, the greater good of "Liverpool" (i.e. you) becomes a no-no because you believe it will "cost me more."
It's actually your only consideration all justified through a distorted prism of small-minded, self-serving carefully nurtured cynicism.

This is unfortunate as you continue to make yourself sound a bit dim by a repetition of frankly preposterous convenient "truths."
I'll just pick two of them:

A)"You don't need taxes, private enterprise resurrected Liverpool"
BOLLOX: The tax-payers of Europe bailed-out Liverpool with Objective One Grants, the improvements and initiatives paving the way for some private enterprise to invest here. This is still to become a sustainable trend however, so, in the meantime, "Thank fuck for the EU" Liverpool says.

B) "Liverpool's Council are shit. It's all down to Peel/Norman Tebbitt/Rasputin."
BOLLOX: The only reason those great selfless Gods Grosvenor (possibly Peel) are here in the first place is that LCC empowered by EU money hatched an intricate multi-faceted plan which hinged upon tourism, retail and office space. Intense negotiations with Grosvenor was required to ensure their acceptable (for the city) involvement. CLT, ACC, CoC, L1...none of it possible without a Council which was, at this point in time, time doing a proper job in figuring an imaginative gameplan for the EU's money.

I really have just wasted my time haven't time haven't I?

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 11:19 PM

Joe the red

October 25th, 2007, 11:24 PM

Thanks VT.

I lost the plot just after the stock controller in Tesco ordered the ex mayor of Asda to riot in Morecambe or something:nuts:

I'm going for a lie down.

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 11:26 PM

Thanks VT.

I lost the plot just after the stock controller in Tesco ordered the ex mayor of Asda to riot in Morecambe or something:nuts:

I'm going for a lie down.

She's off her 'ead.

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 11:26 PM

Quite aggressive these expansionists aren't they Kat?

New Brighton - where if I am right you say you live - is part of Liverpool - always has been, always will be

Not on any map or political or geographical history i've ever seen.

A lot of people moved over here to better their lives, or a lot of traders lived here because they didnt want to live on top of their work. They chose to live here becuase they wanted to live in Wallasey, or New Brighton.

There was no grand design or political decision "this place is now part of Liverpool and we deem that it is a place Liverpool people will settle". New Brighton and Wallasey weren't purposely "built" as an overflow for Liverpool. People moved there of their own volition....just like people move all over the world and how theres been a massive movement of Scousers out of Liverpool when jobs and times have been lean....or simply because they want to live somewhere else.

Australia isn't called Britain. America isn't called 'Irish. Italy has no claim over 'Little Italy' in Brooklyn simply because Italians moved there to better their lives.

Milton Keynes WAS specifically planned and built as an overflow town to London....New brighton and Wallasey was not.

Please just accept that fact. For the last time there is no history of Liverpool as a political or geographical entity having ANYTHING to do with New Brighton or Wallasey. People from liverpool chose to move here. Both of which have historys going back thousands of years if you check and choose not to be arrogant and discount the Wirral as irellevant.

You guys keep making statements which are simply false. "Wirral doesn't exist" it does. It's existed for over 30 years, before that it had more connection with Cheshire than Liverpool so I still don't get your point, before that was Norman, Viking and as far back as Celts. No history of governence by Liverpool whatsoever.

Finally....

Give me ONE way in which the people of the Wirral will benefit (the question Kat has asked multiple time now and has been ignored because we all know the answer we won't)

Pobbie

October 25th, 2007, 11:32 PM

Ah so, I get it your saying you could really do with our council tax money because you dont like us to have control over our own destiny, your talking rubbish, I have seen and can take you to see too, how areas have been plundered, when you ask people outside Manchester city do they like being part of "greater Manchester", they say no, and no, theres no investment in these smaller areas, yes it means Manchester has more money or so called pulling power but it goes to the core Manchester City.
Who said anything about diverting Wirralian resources to Liverpool? What does West Derby have to gain from Liverpool city centre being the regional Manhattan that Birkenhead doesn't? Most of the Wirral is actually closer to Liverpool city centre than West Derby is! The only issue Wirralians can really have with Liverpool is the tunnel tolls, which are unfair on left bank commuters. No one here wants to plough everything into Liverpool city centre: I for one would love to see Birkenhead develop more bustle to rival the other side of the river. However, the simple fact remains that Liverpool city centre's economy is vital to Wirralians, and Wirralians are vital to Liverpool city centre's economy. You lot use it as much as West Derbians do.

One more thing, there seems to be a fear that Wirral will become swallowed up by Liverpool* in the future. But in truth, it already is. You can't fight something which is already true. This isn't about the present-day borough of Liverpool exploiting the present-day borough of Wirral, it's about the two co-operating more closely on a political level to match the economic relationship between them.

(*by Liverpool I mean the conurbation, not the borough of Liverpool. Again, it's not like West Derby somehow has it better for being inside the official council boundary for Liverpool)

kat2

October 25th, 2007, 11:32 PM

*awe* its awfully good of you trying to explain how you see things, and thats fine, it is after all a democracy, Yup, your right your council was bailed out by European funding, but it also enforces my point, watcha gettin for your council tax money ? whats the council spending your money on to improve the services and area where you live, apart from giving the railways dosh to paint a bridge that by all accounts is part of railways stock.

I dont mind paying council tax, its part of my contribution, but like any investor in my money, I do like to see where its being spent and how its improving things to make me wish to stay in an area.
All I did see was my council tax go up, (which is normal) but investment by the council go down) (lovely holidays in shanghi to see how there water fronts like ours! is that a good way to spend you and I's council tax money, considering today they post that there limiting one bedroom flats, now hows that going to effect things like king edwards tower, and the shanghi tower thats in planing?,

wheres all this so called EU money gone? after all the bulk of investment is from the private sector, so explaine where this objective one money has gone, How many affordable houses have been built? I still dont know where that EU money went?

no, it is not I that doesnt understand, I have *sadly* worked in different council departments, I have no objection to paying any council tax, but I do expect (if I was a business person a good return for my money)
so far, I havent seen anyone post how liverpool councils been effective at spending money, indeed if I understand it correctly, theres deficit already regarding the ill fated mathew street fiasco.

kat:)
If I was an accountant I would want to see where my money has gone, so far, with regards to Liverpool it appears to have vanished.:ohno:

Awayo

October 25th, 2007, 11:39 PM

Merseyside received Objective One funding, kat, not the city of Liverpool. Plenty "vanished" on the left bank of the Mersey as well.

Villiers Terrace

October 25th, 2007, 11:40 PM

Give me ONE way in which the people of the Wirral will benefit (the question Kat has asked multiple time now and has been ignored because we all know the answer we won't)

Easy.

By properly representing the full extent of our metropolitan area we will command a proportionally larger slice of political power and importance which should, over time, result in increased investment from both the treasury and the private-sector.

Also, you will be re-associated with a world brand, rather your current isolation as the most obsure, invisible corner of England
As I showed you, your Council are already flying under the Liverpool flag for this reason, begging the obvious question.....

Joe the red

October 25th, 2007, 11:40 PM

Hey Kat you haven't mentioned council tax for at least one full minute. What's wrong??

Nice one VT. You woke the 'Council Tax' beast.:bash:

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 11:41 PM

there seems to be a fear that Wirral will become swallowed up by Liverpool* in the future. But in truth, it already is. You can't fight something which is already true.

That fallacy again. The idea that if you say something enough times, no matter how untrue it is, it becomes fact won't work here.

People on the Wirral FEEL different and seperate from Liverpool, else more of us would move back over there! Can't you get it? We are happy with the way things are....SOME of us would prefer to have NOTHING to do with a 'Liverpool' identity (not me I hasten to add). We have our own vibe over here where we love having such a wonderful city on our doorstep but we also like having our own life over here.

This isn't about the present-day borough of Liverpool exploiting the present-day borough of Wirral, it's about the two co-operating more closely on a political level to match the economic relationship between them.

No-one has a problem with that. We already have an excellent partnership hat doesn't need re-branding against the wishes of the vast majority of the people on one side. Is the postcode farce not enough of a hint for you to express the feeling here?

You can't force people to feel 'Scouse' they eiter do or they don't (please no insults my way please I have as much right to call myself Scouse as anybody from Liverpool).

STILL no explaination how people from the Wirral will benefit, except someone claiming the health rate will go up! haha!

That's hilarious that one! Whats Liverpool's health record and average standard of living like again?

yoshef

October 25th, 2007, 11:43 PM

some of the rubbish spouted by some of the wirral pseudo-separatists is astonishing, makes me feel embarrased to come from there. What has anything to do with Manchester??? If you want to look at an example of a properly run city, why not look at London, with their democratically elected Mayor, Ken, in control of the whole of greater london, banging heads together and getting things moving. When he was first elected Ken wasn't even involved with party politics having been expelled from the Labour Party.

Thats a system that works better than any system in the country. That's a system that is 1000% better than what we have in Wirral, Sefton, Knowsley, Liverpool, St Helens.

A Mayor for Liverpool (http://www.amayorforliverpool.org/)
Liverpool city region (http://www.merseyside.org.uk/dbimgs/PMD%20227%20-%20Main%20Document.pdf)

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 11:49 PM

Easy.

By properly representing the full extent of our metropolitan area we will command a proportionally larger slice of political power and importance which should, over time, result in increased investment from both the treasury and the private-sector.

How are we getting on with that rail money/how much money did Lime Street get? Oh it's all gone to Manchester?

This is your 'regionalism' at work mate.

No thanks, not for us.

Also, you will be re-associated with a world brand

I am proud to be from Liverpool but we have a terrible reputation sorry. Yes it's based on predjudice and stereotypes, but you can't deny it exists.

Some Liverpool sterotypes i'd rather not be tarred with....

"Self pity City"
"Compo City"
"Mind yer car mister"
"Unemployment city"
"That city where that lad got shot"
"That city where nothing ever gets done and scheme after scheme is compromised or binned"

I DESPISE this branding by other people but we have to acknoledge it exists. Again, why do you reckon a lot of people dont want an L4 postcode?

Evertonian

October 25th, 2007, 11:53 PM

some of the rubbish spouted by some of the wirral pseudo-separatists

In order to be a seperatist you first have to have something to seperate from. Wev've never been part of Liverpool. We're a peninsula with thousands of years of history sepeated by a river.

What has anything to do with Manchester???

Branding has been quoted and a regional approach has too. The leading brand in th northwest is manchester. If it was suggested there be a Manchester Regional sphere, people would (quite rightly) go nuts.

I brought up Manchester because it is a prime example of where the money goes when we adopt a regionalist approach. Money gets diverted to the regional "core".

If you want proof compare infastructure expenditure. Peanuts spent on Lime Street while manchester is awarded megabucks.

You guys complain about this in other threads but are quite willing to enforce it on the people of the Wirral.

kat2

October 25th, 2007, 11:53 PM

I moved out of Liverpool not because I had issue with the people of Liverpool, on the contrary, I have may friends over their, I moved out of Liverpool to preserve financial sanity.

I am very pleased that you all have confidence in your councils ability to run your city, I will of course remind you from time to time when you post in any threads regarding this.

so, to recap, you dont appear to know where the EU money went but you know you got it.

You feel the council tax is excellent value for money and wont mind paying next years shortfall for the capital of culture.

You would just love to see wirral go down because unlike liverpool the people of wirral actually like the wirral

You want our money because you cant spend your own wisely, you have no account of your councils spending of its objective one money

you agree that as of today your councils shot itself in the foot by annoucing to potential investors no more one bedroom flats, because you want familys, so, that scuppers shangi tower and king edwards towers doesnt it?

I have seen plenty of good ideas in Liverpool by the business (private sector) but well, look at todays annoucment in the daily post,
says it all really, well done
kat
oh and what was the reason why they dont want any more one bedroom flats? coughs, erm well, cos Manchester adopted it first.
(please read the article in full) How to shoot your business investors in the foot and tell them what to build with their money.
:ohno:

liverpolitan

October 25th, 2007, 11:54 PM

I have absolutely no idea how to answer that. Poli, VT anybody Heeelllppp!

Kat is - I hope - pretending to be stupid. Evertonian just doesn't get it. I think he could, he's not stupid, but he's not trying. Unless and until he is prepared to open his mind to a contrary point of view, it's just a wasted effort.

I think it's good that people with different types of intellect can discuss issues on the net together. But everyone need to have an open mind. I don't get much sense of this from these parochialists, they ignore evidence, facts and rational arguments in favour of repeating - in the case of kat - utter nonsense.

Evertonian

October 26th, 2007, 12:00 AM

Unless and until he is prepared to open his mind to a contrary point of view, it's just a wasted effort.

Both Kat and I are open to having our opinions changed. She asked about 3 or 4 times how the Wirral would benefit and we kind of expected a long list of the ways it would suit us.

The only answer was something about how people willbe happier and live longer (quantifyable how exactly? stats and league tables suggest the reverse).

everyone need to have an open mind.

People with open minds don't use insulting language which I have unfortunately had to report. The response to Kat by VCilliers was completely unneccesary.

they ignore evidence, facts and rational arguments

Some blokes on a website repeating a fallacy time and time again does not constitue facts. We asked for evidence there is none forthcoming.

Show me the charter which states Wirral was built as an overflow of Liverpool.

Show me the governance.

Show me statistical proof of a better standard of life in liverpool to Wirral (good luck on this).

Show us what we have been asking all along. Evidence that it would improve our lives to be part of a "Liverpool" City Region.

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 12:01 AM

Actually yoshef, I can clearly see you havent lived in London, *sighs* parts of Londons housing stock I woundnt put a car in let a lone a human being, some estates, just like Liverpool are no go areas, and you know soon as you walk into an area. Yup, city looks mighty fine, but thats the core, all cores look fine, be it Manchester or London, city investment, but what about investment in the surrounding boroughs of London, did you watch the count down of the best and worse places to live on chanel four? it showed London and its boroughs and associated problems.
kat

Villiers Terrace

October 26th, 2007, 12:04 AM

*awe* its awfully good of you trying to explain how you see things, and thats fine, it is after all a democracy, Yup, your right, but it also enforces my point, watcha gettin for your council tax money ? whats the council spending your money on to improve the services and area where you live, apart from giving the railways dosh to paint a bridge that by all accounts is part of railways stock.

I dont mind paying council tax, its part of my contribution, but like any investor in my money, I do like to see where its being spent and how its improving things to make me wish to stay in an area.
All I did see was my council tax go up, (which is normal) but investment by the council go down) (lovely holidays in shanghi to see how there water fronts like ours! is that a good way to spend you and I's council tax money, considering today they post that there limiting one bedroom flats, now hows that going to effect things like king edwards tower, and the shanghi tower thats in planing?,

, How many affordable houses have been built? I still dont know where that EU money went?

no, it is not I that doesnt understand, I have *sadly* worked in different council departments, I have no objection to paying any council tax, but I do expect (if I was a business person a good return for my money)
so far, I havent seen anyone post how liverpool councils been effective at spending money, indeed if I understand it correctly, theres deficit already regarding the ill fated mathew street fiasco.

kat:)
If I was an accountant I would want to see where my money has gone, so far, with regards to Liverpool it appears to have vanished.:ohno:

Well, yes, I'm sure it does "appear" to have done that when you come out with ill-informed gems such as:

"your council was bailed out by European funding"
No, the city was.

or

"wheres all this so called EU money gone? after all the bulk of investment is from the private sector"
Jesus wept.
Kat, you need to "skill-up" a bit on the subject then come back eh?

Pobbie

October 26th, 2007, 12:07 AM

That fallacy again. The idea that if you say something enough times, no matter how untrue it is, it becomes fact won't work here.
Like your implication of aggressive expansionism by scouse imperialists?

People on the Wirral FEEL different and seperate from Liverpool, else more of us would move back over there! Can't you get it? We are happy with the way things are....SOME of us would prefer to have NOTHING to do with a 'Liverpool' identity (not me I hasten to add). We have our own vibe over here where we love having such a wonderful city on our doorstep but we also like having our own life over here.
I never even said anything about identity or the like. Besides, a lot of folks in Liverpool want nothing to do with this 'Liverpool' identity either. I wasn't undermining Wirralian distinctness, but you can't shake off its association with Liverpool no matter how hard you try. I never said anything about wiping Wirral off the map, just that it and Liverpool are very much alike whatever you say about feeling different.

By the way, that last bit applies to anywhere in Liverpool. West Derby has its own life in addition to a wonderful city centre on our doorstep.

No-one has a problem with that. We already have an excellent partnership hat doesn't need re-branding against the wishes of the vast majority of the people on one side.
Who wants to rebrand Wirral? That's not the point. Acknowledging that much of it is part of the same urban sprawl as West Derby is.

is the postcode farce not enough of a hint for you to express the feeling here?
Nope. Postcodes mean diddly squat as far as I'm concerned.

You can't force people to feel 'Scouse' they eiter do or they don't (please no insults my way please I have as much right to call myself Scouse as anybody from Liverpool).
The same applies to those who live in Liverpool borough. Again, this has nothing to do with scouse identity!

STILL no explaination how people from the Wirral will benefit, except someone claiming the health rate will go up! haha!
I'm not sure it will - I haven't even expressed my support for this administrative city region notion. All I've done is pointed out that Wirral would have no more to lose than West Derby would if it were to be implemented. West Derby got swallowed up by Liverpool, but it still exists. Wirral doesn't have to suffer the same fate, but denying it being part of the Liverpool conurbation is pointless.

Joe the red

October 26th, 2007, 12:13 AM

Veinticinco

October 26th, 2007, 12:15 AM

If you want to know where Objective One funding has gone, just look it up, don't be lazy. Read the Financial Times' 8-page feature on Liverpool to see how it has vastly helped the city and is now on it's way out and the private sector is taking over again. By the way, Merseyside qualified for EU funding, not Liverpool, Wirral was included.

Why on earth would you throw stones in a glass house? Like Wirral council knows its arse from its elbow! I'd take what Liverpool is getting over what Wirral is getting anyday. Were'nt you getting all excited about a flipping supermarket opening up in Birkenhead lol? The small business killer?

Bringing up the riots? Oh dear. Every city had them. Who's fault was the riots again? Oh, the polices' fault. Liverpool Police Department is that? No, Merseyside Police. A load of racist Wirralians being wankers? Could well have been.

"You want our money because you cant spend your own wisely, you have no account of your councils spending of its objective one money"

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2007/10/16/wirral-council-facing-60m-budget-black-hole-and-massive-cuts-64375-19956979/

Liverpool goes from strength to strength. Wirral can't manage money, unemployment is going up, population is going down.

Less 1-bed flats being built is a good thing. Families need to be attracted to city center living and if a development has over 40% of its flats with only 1 bedroom then it's not worth having. It's may as well be student accommodation.

So ignorant. I'm with Yoshef, hiding my face and cringing everytime you hit the keyboard kat.

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 12:15 AM

Not one person in this thread has shown me any proof of how wonderfull your council is at investing your council tax money,
before I post any further, because to be honest you simply dont know and your playing silly games with my time, I have alot of respect for you guys, hell I even like yah, but one thing I am not is silly

all I ask for is facts please show me the facts otherwise sadly its just wind, for that you can take medicine.

point out working models of your proposals showing in depth how things was before and how they are now, with facts
no need to insult is there?

All I want is facts proof
next year you will prove to me, that I was right, that your councils lost or loosing the confidence of the business sector.

do I want to invest in Liverpool city council no, show me how I would benefit on my hard earnt money?

I left Liverpool not because of its wonderfull people, but because of the way its being run.

Lets not insult each other it only reinforces my beleaf that you cannot back up any credible statment that you may have dreamed up.

Yes, I do agree the business model of a central core would or possibly could attract more investment, but like all great business people, its down to how its managed and for my part I can honestly say I have no faith in Liverpool city council, tonight as I type this, the business comunity are fuming with Liverpool, all those renders produced for the likes of shanghi, and King edward are now being called into question by a silly ruling that manchester adopted Imagine how much damage that could have done to wirral had you had control over it.

your councils crap at business it has nothing to show for its money.
kat
so come on chaps facts please, thats all i ask, then I will shut up, proove me wrong and I will say sorry, its not above me to say so, but please come on, no insults, facts, I have produced facts from councils I have worked for.
:ohno::nuts:

liverpolitan

October 26th, 2007, 12:16 AM

Both Kat and I are open to having our opinions changed. She asked about 3 or 4 times how the Wirral would benefit and we kind of expected a long list of the ways it would suit us.

The only answer was something about how people willbe happier and live longer (quantifyable how exactly? stats and league tables suggest the reverse).

People with open minds don't use insulting language which I have unfortunately had to report. The response to Kat by VCilliers was completely unneccesary.

Some blokes on a website repeating a fallacy time and time again does not constitue facts. We asked for evidence there is none forthcoming.

Show me the charter which states Wirral was built as an overflow of Liverpool.

Show me the governance.

Show me statistical proof of a better standard of life in liverpool to Wirral (good luck on this).

Show us what we have been asking all along. Evidence that it would improve our lives to be part of a "Liverpool" City Region.

You have mis-read my posting. This seems to be part of the problem. The words say one thing, you quickly decide they say something else. Please re-read my post and you will see that you have misunderstood it. Unless you are prepared to try, it's a waste of time. I am not going to keep going round in circles on this, you need to read what is written.

yoshef

October 26th, 2007, 12:16 AM

Evertonian

October 26th, 2007, 12:19 AM

liverpolitan

October 26th, 2007, 12:24 AM

Evertonian, please please will you just read what people are writing?

There is strong evidence that metropolitan areas with good co-ordination and governance are richer than those with balkanised local government. That evidence has been accepted by the Government in its Sub-national review and is the main reason that city-regional governance is being encouraged.

I am happy to explain more, but only if you will actually read what I am writing. I can send you links to source material you can read on this.

I am not making this up, it happens to be what the evidence says. City Regions are more successful when they run themselves as city regions, not when they are run by completely separate local authorities.

I think you are sincere in just not knowing about this - your instinct seems to tell you that it's a bad idea, but the evidence is that actually it's a very good idea.

There is already, to an extent, city regional governance anyway. Public transport is an example, and the MPTA is highly regarded for its efficiency. There you have just one example of how city regional arrangements can work. It's not an anti-Wirral conspiracy, it's just the most efficient way to run public transport in a metropolitan area. We need to build on that in other areas where co-ordination should be across the metropolis, rather than run by entirely artificially designed and modern local authority areas such as Sefton or Knowlsey or Wirral.

the golden vision

October 26th, 2007, 12:26 AM

So we're agreed then that there is no need to change the working partnership the Wirral and Liverpool currently enjoys.

Why the insistence on the "Liverpool" City Region "re-branding" then?

It does Wirral no favours whatsoever. We are agreed that theres no benefit to the Wirral then?

Just checking not trying to be sarcy.

Birkenhead,Liverpool's first overspill.The following is from a Wirral History website.The growth of Liverpool signalled the start of a new era for Wirral; an era of tremendous growth and rapid change. For as Liverpool grew as a centre of trade and commerce, its merchants and businessmen looked across the Mersey to the sandy shores and green fields of Wirral, and many “crossed over” to make their homes in Birkenhead. Ferries, trains, docks and commerce soon followed. Between 1810 and 1841 the population of Birkenhead leapt from 109 to a staggering 8,ooo. As the Mersey side of the peninsula became more industrialized, many moved out of the dirt and grime to the greener parts of Wirral. Growth was naturally greatest along the rail routes, the opening of the Hoylake line in 1866 enabled city weary Liverpool businessmen to live within sight, sound and smell of the sea. This growth has continued to the present day and shows little sign of slowing down. Rural, land based communities are disappearing under the spreading tide of suburbia. Nine hundred years ago there were about 2,000 people in the whole of Wirral; its population is now approaching half a million.

Bearing in mind in 1810 Liverpool had a population of 120,000 and by 1840 280,000.

yoshef

October 26th, 2007, 12:29 AM

your councils crap at business it has nothing to show for its money.
kat

not as bad as Wirral Borough Council it would appear:-
Wirral Council facing £60m budget ‘black hole’ and massive cuts (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2007/10/16/wirral-council-facing-60m-budget-black-hole-and-massive-cuts-64375-19956979/)

Veinticinco

October 26th, 2007, 12:30 AM

All I want is facts proof
next year you will prove to me, that I was right, that your councils lost or loosing the confidence of the business sector.:nuts:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16098137&postcount=775

again..
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16098137&postcount=775

Veinticinco

October 26th, 2007, 12:31 AM

You seem to view Liverpool as being in decline. Which is frankly insane.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16098137&postcount=775

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 12:33 AM

City regions, are, yes, I agree all great business people whom have sound business knowledge (and whom have done well) understand the concept of what your trying to put across,

Hey look at it this way, if I asked for your money to build chocolate fireguards would you invest in my idea?
nooooo! well some might *rofl*

what I am trying to say is, the people of Liverpool judging by the posts of this year alone dont have much faith in its council

so, would I want my city or region to be controlled or managed by a business person or entity that its very own people have little faith in?

You still havent produced any facts as to how wirral would benefit, yes it possibly could if Liverpool was better managed, but like Manchester and even Leeds, have you had a walk around leeds near st James hospital, *ewwwww* not a nice place to walk, very scary!

Manchester, have alook at its regions have they enjoyed Manchester citys re generation? nooo

a business is only as good as the people and investors around it, bad investment or business decisions can cripple a business and loose it credibility, thats the same with branding too, wirral has good branding.
kat:nuts::cheers:

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 12:40 AM

twiz.
wait and see, after all thats what that message reads, now youve had the money, which is basically what it says, lets see how you manage it.
I predict,
it will fail *sadly* because of your council, not because of its people, yes public confidence is high, it always is when any city gets the capital of culture, thats what its all about, but lets wait and see, because like the link says, now youve had the money lets see how the business sector continue to invest or not?
lets see who foots the bill for the capital of culture.
Lets see how buisness will flurish once the lime light of its birthday and capital of culture come and go.
lets see how many more scandals come out of the wash.
kat

Veinticinco

October 26th, 2007, 12:45 AM

City regions, are, yes, I agree all great business people whom have sound business knowledge (and whom have done well) understand the concept of what your trying to put across,

:dunno:

Hey look at it this way, if I asked for your money to build chocolate fireguards would you invest in my idea?
nooooo! well some might *rofl*

:dunno:

what I am trying to say is, the people of Liverpool judging by the posts of this year alone dont have much faith in its council

I'm from Wallasey, I have ZERO faith in Wirral council

so, would I want my city or region to be controlled or managed by a business person or entity that its very own people have little faith in?

Again, Wirral council are useless. They manage to fuck everything up, lose £60m, cut jobs and resources and all without really having much to do. They don't have a tenth of what Liverpool council have to do. Anyone can get a job there.

You still havent produced any facts as to how wirral would benefit, yes it possibly could if Liverpool was better managed, but like Manchester and even Leeds, have you had a walk around leeds near st James hospital, *ewwwww* not a nice place to walk, very scary!

Inner city/town residential areas are dumps all over the world. Including Birkenhead and Wallasey, but keep ignoring Seacombe/Egremont/Birkenhead North if you want. That problem won't be solved by any council in any of our lifetimes.

Manchester, have alook at its regions have they enjoyed Manchester citys re generation? nooo

^^

a business is only as good as the people and investors around it, bad investment or business decisions can cripple a business and loose it credibility, thats the same with branding too, wirral has good branding.

Wirral has no branding. Fact! It's one of the least known places in the country considering there are 300k people here. Nobody even knows it exists. Tell somebody you're from Liverpool and straight away they know where it is. Tell them Wirral and - blank face.

BTW Evertonian - The bad 80s stereotype of Liverpool is strictly in the UK. Worldwide, Liverpool is a positive brand name.

paulmac35

October 26th, 2007, 12:48 AM

[QUOTE=kat2;16110227]
your councils crap at business it has nothing to show for its money.
kat

whose council? its not my council! my council's sefton! but touchez! they are crap too! :lol:

Veinticinco

October 26th, 2007, 12:50 AM

Evertonian

October 26th, 2007, 12:56 AM

There is strong evidence that metropolitan areas with good co-ordination and governance are richer than those with balkanised local government. That evidence has been accepted by the Government in its Sub-national review and is the main reason that city-regional governance is being encouraged.

I am happy to explain more, but only if you will actually read what I am writing. I can send you links to source material you can read on this.

Ok thanks I can see now how there is a possibility for success then, if what you say is true (and I have no reason to believe you're making evidence up so fair play).

There is already, to an extent, city regional governance anyway. Public transport is an example, and the MPTA is highly regarded for its efficiency.

The MPTA is probably not the best example here mate! haha!

The MPTA is despised in certain areas of the Wirral where services have been cut, where there are multiple problems with the trains having to stop at Birkenhead North for replacements buses to hamilton Sqaure (always seems fine on the Liverpool underground though) and of course the DEPSISED tunnell tolls which are seen as an unfair taxon trade, work and lesiure (I believe the vast majority usage being Wirral residents).

So you can see probably best leave that example out! ; )

Liverpolitain I am taking in what you are saying and considering it and believe there may be some benefit to it based on what you have said however I still believe all this can be done without a Liverpool branding which will be offensive to some (not me i'm proud to be from Liverpool) and in my opinion just isn't needed.

As I said you can't make people feel Scouse or from Liverpool, best you can hope for at the moment is an equal partnership....then after a few decades the West kirkby/Caldy set might start to see working together and being part of the Liverpool renaisance is actually a damn good hting.

Understand where i'm coming from?

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 01:11 AM

it praises a city where at the moment there is investment, partly due to its capital of culture and the advertisment that will bring, long term investment it says, (wait and see)
post 2008 yes it probably will because of commitments already, but not because of sound business on the councils part, simply because of its european funding, its birthday, its capital of culture.

Year 2009 should be really interesting, no doubt Manchester will steal the lime light in that year.
yes, your right about Liverpool its famous, well, famous for err beatles? when did they break up?
twiz, so your from Wallasey, I simpathise with you, yes, Wallasey as indeed other areas of Wirral have sadly suffered, thats the problem when you get an all wirral council, (sadly) I would have even littler faith in Liverpool runing our state of affairs, I cant beleive you live over here and want to be governed by Liverpool!
thats why in one sense the corporations were a good idea, they had better understanding at local level of what the people of that area need. Can you honestly say hand on heart, your living in Wallasey now, and you have every confidence in Liverpool to run charge your council tax, spend your money wisely?
I thought I was nuts, !!
Tell me what wirral council have mucked up? if your refering to a recent article then yes on this one occasion I agree they got it wrong, they should have invested in Wallasey and egremont, very short sighted of them not to spot that! business in decline, hardly, yes problems with the buscuit factory but the council did try to save that, same with Camell lairds, Frank Field tried his best to save that business.
sadly like all things when theres a central core of governance, then the smaller areas suffer for the good of the central core,
you have just proved that very point by what you have said about wirral councils recent muck up or rather oversight of concentrating on what it beleives is its central core, and rightly so, councillors of Wallasey, and egremont objected and scuppered the funding,

Pobbie

October 26th, 2007, 01:22 AM

kat, why are you assuming that the current Liverpool City Council would also form the hypothetical city region government? If the latter were to happen LCC would cease to exist, in its present form at least (who's to say smaller administrative divisions wouldn't exist? Like London boroughs for example, split by the Mersey).

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 01:42 AM

Because smaller regional administrative governance would need approval of the central core.

Hey, lets try this, Manchester Regional assembly, Northwest? hows that sound?
Liverpool to get its funding from Manchester, same with wirral too?

nooo, didnt think it was a good idea but hey Manchester is bigger than Liverpool, and were a small fishing village run by monks so hey!

in just the same way I could hear outcry in Liverpool if the westminster Government decided that Manchester was to govern the northwestern region
being the largest in the area, would you really think you could get a good deal from Manchester, really really?
kat
:ohno:

Villiers Terrace

October 26th, 2007, 02:10 AM

How are we getting on with that rail money/how much money did Lime Street get? Oh it's all gone to Manchester?

This is your 'regionalism' at work mate.

Where in this argument did I advocate regionalism?

I am proud to be from Liverpool but we have a terrible reputation sorry. Yes it's based on predjudice and stereotypes, but you can't deny it exists.

Some Liverpool sterotypes i'd rather not be tarred with....

"Self pity City"
"Compo City"
"Mind yer car mister"
"Unemployment city"
"That city where that lad got shot"
"That city where nothing ever gets done and scheme after scheme is compromised or binned"

I DESPISE this branding by other people but we have to acknoledge it exists.

And in the terms of this debate you're completely undermimed here by the policy whereby Wirral Council is actively aligning itself under the "Liverpool brand."

Again, why do you reckon a lot of people dont want an L4 postcode?

Erm, cheaper insurance premiums based on verifiable stats perhaps?

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 02:27 AM

it isnt aligning itself to Liverpool, why would we? after all, as of today or rather yesterday, I think business's will look across towards wirral for stability with no hinderance, fancy adopting a stupid Manchester Policy on one bedroom flats, that went down well didnt it (not)!
I just love the idea of Liverpool being in charge at its own state of affairs, I love the idea of Manchester runing its own state of affairs.
Wirral councils signed up for the next 30 odd years, the inks dry to investment and business.
ship building seems to be popular again, which is good for the area as a whole.
we have started a saturday service to the isle of Man too, dont forget were only a small area so our schemes support us well.
new asda starts getting built next year, and directly across from asda another small shoppink complex is well under way (work in progress)
300 flats being built at the top of oxton road, (approved)
from birkenhead north station along the dock road was to be built on with affordable housing, but sadly thats recently been scuppered *sighs*
new trafford type center renders produced to be built near bidstone moss.
a few computer companys have now invested in Wirral.
re generation of new brighton,
yes each in there own small schemes but were a small area so it will have a bigger impact.
kat:)

Pobbie

October 26th, 2007, 02:31 AM

Evertonian

October 26th, 2007, 02:31 AM

Where in this argument did I advocate regionalism?

Is this whole debate not about a Liverpool City Region? Sorry I thought thats what people where pushing for.

And in the terms of this debate you're completely undermimed here by the policy whereby Wirral Council is actively aligning itself under the "Liverpool brand."

WBC are trying to cash in on CoC 08. A couple of politicians doesnt constitute the vast majority of people rom the wirral who dont want to associate with the liverpool brand. This isn't MY feeling on this, this is THEIR (the peope of wirral) general feeling.

Erm, cheaper insurance premiums based on verifiable stats perhaps?

Yes and why would people (misguidedly) believe a CH code would provide them with a cheaper insurance than an L4 one? Becuase they feel Liverpools name is bad.

(I dont believe this and would have been perfectly happy to stick with an l4 code since to me all the code represents is where the post is sorted).

Evertonian

October 26th, 2007, 02:32 AM

That central core wouldn't be Liverpool though. I give up.

of course it would!

Pobbie

October 26th, 2007, 02:35 AM

West Derby part of the core and Birkenhead the periphery? Again, I give up.

Evertonian

October 26th, 2007, 02:44 AM

Listen we're not going to agree on this.

I believe that a Liverpool City Region would result in money going from Wirral, Sefton, Knowsley, etc to Liverpool for some of the cash shortfalls and hair brained schemes. Things like the trams that will be of no benefit to the Wirral whatsoever. Meanwhile we will never see the back of these god forsaken fucking tunel tolls (ironically THE best thing you could do to make Wirral people feel truly part of the city and not locked out and charge to get in and out).

It's obvious to me where the balance of power will lean and where the priorites will be. One only has to look at what is happening in this region with the ballance of things between Manchester and Liverpool. You can't tell regionalism is working for Liverpool when the overwhelming evidence is Manchester has took the cream off the top.

Fundamentally I don't trust the politicins in Liverpool as far as I can throw them. The squabling and infighting and lack of untiy (even in the run up to CoC 08) is sad. The planning is a joke with our reputation as liverpool being a place one can come and build in tatters after failed project, after failed project. I KNOW I'M NOT ALONE IN THINKING THIS BECAUSE AT ONE POINT OR ANOTHER I HAVE READ YOU ALL MAKE THE SAME POINT WHEN A PROJECT IS DISAPPOINTINGLY COMPROMISED, SCALED DOWN OR EVEN SCRAPPED.

I wouldn't want them in charge of Wirral Waters...just like I don't like them being in charge of planning of Liverpool Waters or any of the Liverpool schemes I am so proud to see.

Furthermore (and this is the most relevant and most important point I will make here) The strategy in Liverpool is to build the city centre and hope....HOPE!....that the wealth will filter out. A flawed strategy that will end in tears in my opinion (and a few accademics and social comentators). I hope to god with every ounce of my soul that I am wrong like.

I don't want that strategy affecting the Wirral where I pay taxes and where I live. I want the money raised in Wallasey to be spent in Wallasey. If anything the lesson of the 21C politics is to devolve power as much as possible....not to centralise it even more.

I respet your opinions though and (though I don't expect you to believe this) I have listened and have tried to take them in.

I hope I havent resorted to cheap jibes and insults. Lets just agree to disagree.

Villiers Terrace

October 26th, 2007, 02:50 AM

Is this whole debate not about a Liverpool City Region? Sorry I thought thats what people where pushing for.

Liverpool City, Liverpool City Region, Greater Liverpool, the Metropolitan rea Of Liverpool, blah blah blah
, you know quite well what we're talking about and it's got nothing to do with macro "regionalism."

Villiers Terrace

October 26th, 2007, 02:52 AM

I want the money raised in Wallasey to be spent in Wallasey.

All 20p?

Evertonian

October 26th, 2007, 02:55 AM

Wallasey, particularly Wallasey village, is a very affluent area mate. What are you going on about?

Villiers Terrace

October 26th, 2007, 03:02 AM

Wallasey, particularly Wallasey village, is a very affluent area mate. What are you going on about?

See? I didn't know that, it having absolutely no profile whatsoever on the consciousness.

As for money actually "raised" there though I was probably right wasn't I?

Scarecrow

October 26th, 2007, 04:44 AM

Are they sending someone round with a bucket?

liverpolitan

October 26th, 2007, 08:28 AM

...

Furthermore (and this is the most relevant and most important point I will make here) The strategy in Liverpool is to build the city centre and hope....HOPE!....that the wealth will filter out. A flawed strategy that will end in tears in my opinion...

This is a good point to discuss in my opinion. As long as a city centre isn't dolled up at huge public expense (and they are not in this country) then I think it's very much in the interests of the entire urban region that it has not just a very good primary urban centre, but also high quality secondary centres.

Compare Liscard and Liverpool. Liscard, given its size, location and character, is never going to be in a position to attract enough jobs for its own residents. It will always export people to work elsewhere. Now, that doesn't mean that Liscard people shouldn't be able to see their Council Tax improve Liscard and make it a high quality district centre (indeed one of the problems with "Wirral" was precisely that - funds and resources were diverted to build up Birkenhead). But, people in Liscard also depend -increasingly - on a strong city region overall to sustain the economy and provide them all with jobs, learning and training opportunities, linkages to the outside world etc. So a big metropolitan region cannot work by each local district only funding its own improvements - there are strategic, shared resources that also need to be built up.

Most spending goes on things that are NOT in city centres: on social services, primary and secondary education, housing etc. Those are the big-ticket items in local authority spending. Transport, economic development, arts etc come further down: usually, per square inch, you will see more of those budgets spent in city and town centres than in residential areas. Liscard, for example, will need more spent on bus stops than Egremont, because it's more central and busier with more need. Liverpool and Birkenhead will have more spent on rail interchanges than say Wallasey or Hoylake because they are the centre of the railway system for the urban region.

This "if it's not spent in my street I dont' want to know" mentality is very common in some places in the USA, and has led to some cities and their regions suffering badly.

So Liverpool city cenrte should be built up in a world-class city centre to live in, work in, study in, shop in, visit etc. A better city centre is enjoyed by all, not just those who live in the city itself, and generates wealth and jobs for all. Other areas of the urban region should fulfill their own roles: Southport needs investment to make it an up-to-date coastal resort. If Chester joins, that will need as much attention as Liverpool to keep its environment good as a regional shopping centre. The R&D sector out and around Runcorn and Warrington needs support as a sector, it's capable of generating far more wealth and jobs - although such support doesn't necessarily mean a lot of public sector, it might be more about prioritising it for planning purposes. As I say, the sums of local public money spent on city centre improvements in this country are not great, usually these days the private sector is involved, as with New Brighton and most of what has happened in Liverpool in the last five years.

If you don't want any "big city" services that do require subsidy - like the Philharmonic, or Bluecoat, or Playhouse, then fine. But everyone ends up the poorer. The irony of a lot of the "big city" services (that get a penny each or whatever it is in reality from the local population) is that they tend to be used MORE by people from outside the core city. So who should subsidise the Liverpool Philharmonic? Only the people from Liverpool City? Should those who live on the Wirral not contribute at all? Because if they stopped, the Phil would be dead. The whole urban region would decline. Part of the appeal of a city region to inward investors is precisely that if they move their staff to Birkenhead, or St Helens, they are only a short hop away from high quality city centre services.

liverpolitan

October 26th, 2007, 08:46 AM

Things like the trams that will be of no benefit to the Wirral whatsoever.

Because it's not going down your road, you think it doesn't benefit you and has nothing to do with you. But it does.

If the first line of the tram is built some things will happen as a result:

Example: L1 will become a more successful shopping centre, with more demand, the shops will be more successful, and generate wealth and greater choice.

Another example: Liverpool city centre will suffer less traffic congestion, meaning the travel times within the region will be lower and the city centre will be more attractive to investors to bring more jobs to the area.

A further example: Fewer people will be unemployed, as areas out to Kirkby with relatively high unemployment will find their residents better able to access training and jobs outside their immediate area.

Someone in your street may never themselves set foot on the tram, but would still benefit because they will be part of a richer, more dynamic urban region - the overall standard of living will be higher, which means more people paying local taxes and fewer dependent upon social services; there will be more choice of jobs so they can move jobs more often, gain more skills and have a better rewarded career; house prices will be supported by this increased wealth; they will have greater choice of shopping in L1, meaning they will - in say 45 minutes and £2, be able to access a range of shops that they would currently have to spend an extra hour and extra few quid just to get to outside the region.

I am forming the opinion that you may be one of those people who has never ever taken an interest in economics. Sorry if I am wrong, but there is something about your arguments that tells me you don't yet feel confident with economics. But it's important that you do, because otherwise you will go around - like some numbskull local councillor from Liverpool or Wirral - saying "no, my constituents don't benefit", when actually they do.

Wallasey house prices are very low indeed compared to comparable areas in other city regions. Why? Beacuse the city region as a whole is relatively poor. Wallasey house prices have improved a bit in last few years - not just because of overall house price growth but because the Liverpool city region is getting economically stronger. There is more confidence. Higher Liverpool house prices have started to ripple out to places like New Brighton, for example. A strong regional economy - which involes linking Kirkby to L1 and Kings Dock by tram - will result in higher house prices in Wallasey. It won't cause them to double, and the biggest rises are always those immediately next to or near stops on a new line - but the nature of housing markets is the prices ripple around locally for miles as the local economy strengthens.

You need to see Wallasey as a part of the urban region it is. It's not self-contained, it's absolutely and fundamentally dependent upon surrounding areas - primarily Liverpool and the Wirral but I know some people go further afield for work these days because the local economy is so weak.

JUXTAPOL

October 26th, 2007, 01:09 PM

The inevitability is "The Wirral" is and has been linked to the city of Liverpool and will continue to do so. Whether Liverpool stays the same or booms, the Wirral will benefit from employment and vice versa, and business will come to the area, with Liverpool being the biggest draw.

The tunnel tolls are an interesting case, as the Wirral side hates them the most, but if the Wirral has not gained from Liverpool, then the tunnel tolls shouldn't be an issue, as Wirallians don't need them as the Wirral can supply all their needs....yes....no....!

....of course not

Wirral council and it's people benefits by taxing Liverpool jobs, Liverpool generated wealth which is exported through the tunnels to benefit Wirral council spending.

I don't mind this happening, i'm not that insular to think that only people living this side of the river should get those jobs, because even though i don't directly benefit, i am happy that it will benefit the area.

Blabber II

October 26th, 2007, 01:27 PM

Because it's not going down your road, you think it doesn't benefit you and has nothing to do with you. But it does.

If the first line of the tram is built some things will happen as a result:

Example: L1 will become a more successful shopping centre, with more demand, the shops will be more successful, and generate wealth and greater choice.

Another example: Liverpool city centre will suffer less traffic congestion, meaning the travel times within the region will be lower and the city centre will be more attractive to investors to bring more jobs to the area.

A further example: Fewer people will be unemployed, as areas out to Kirkby with relatively high unemployment will find their residents better able to access training and jobs outside their immediate area.

Someone in your street may never themselves set foot on the tram, but would still benefit because they will be part of a richer, more dynamic urban region - the overall standard of living will be higher, which means more people paying local taxes and fewer dependent upon social services; there will be more choice of jobs so they can move jobs more often, gain more skills and have a better rewarded career; house prices will be supported by this increased wealth; they will have greater choice of shopping in L1, meaning they will - in say 45 minutes and £2, be able to access a range of shops that they would currently have to spend an extra hour and extra few quid just to get to outside the region.
.

Good post Poli. It is worrying that there are people stupid enough to need it explaining to them. It is this brand of parochial thick-headedness, milked by bottom-feeding, local politicians, that acts as a millstone around the neck of Liverpool, Wirral, Sefton, and the entire city-region.

It is a breath-taking and incredibly destructive stupidity, and the sort of thing that could only subsist in the minds of modern-day peasants. They misguidedly balk at the hand that feeds them because the benefits to them are not obvious enough.

As long as these ridiculous mind sets continue, Liverpool's city region will continue to be fragmented and ineffective, and all of the boroughs will ultimately lose out. Compare this state of affairs to the alliance of 10 local authorities working towards a common cause in Greater Manchester.

Gareth

October 26th, 2007, 01:28 PM

The argument is lost when you have to resort to personal insults.

Actually, I won the argument the last time, about a month or so back, and the time before that, about eighteen months ago. The fact you don't protest against my claims that you're not a scouser merely adds yet another reason. Don't worry Evertonian, you're in a much better place than I am. No dirty, grimey, big city but some quaint little place, where cup cakes and afternoon tea are central to local culture.

Give my regards to Alice and the talking rabbit for me.

Gareth

October 26th, 2007, 02:08 PM

I am proud to be from Liverpool but we have a terrible reputation sorry. Yes it's based on predjudice and stereotypes, but you can't deny it exists.

Some Liverpool sterotypes i'd rather not be tarred with....

"Self pity City"
"Compo City"
"Mind yer car mister"
"Unemployment city"
"That city where that lad got shot"
"That city where nothing ever gets done and scheme after scheme is compromised or binned"

And here's the proof. You're a snob with an identity crisis. You thought that moving to the Wirral would exonerate you from this stigma and make you a better person, but you can still 'pop in' for work and shopping, as long as you don't mention that you do this to the tea and cupcake brigade. People here arguing that you're still in the same city (at least as much as Cantril Farm is) as the one you wanted to escape from, must disturb you greatly. I think I understand now.

Evertonian

October 26th, 2007, 03:33 PM

kung_fuzi

October 26th, 2007, 03:41 PM

City regions, are, yes, I agree all great business people whom have sound business knowledge (and whom have done well) understand the concept of what your trying to put across,

Hey look at it this way, if I asked for your money to build chocolate fireguards would you invest in my idea?
nooooo! well some might *rofl*

what I am trying to say is, the people of Liverpool judging by the posts of this year alone dont have much faith in its council

so, would I want my city or region to be controlled or managed by a business person or entity that its very own people have little faith in?

:

Kat2,
You don't seem to have grasped the the workings of 'city regions'.

If/when they come about the plan is for there to be a co-ordination of councils,not a takeover.
They will have a committee and a revolving chair person.
The committee will comprise of people from all the local councils so the idea that Liverpool will run Wirral is a nonsense.

Gareth

October 26th, 2007, 04:14 PM

Okay Kat, I'm going to try now and cover most points on this now. I don't think you'll get it and I don't think you're open minded to being persuaded, but I've tried with Evertonian several times (which was a futile effort) so it's only fair to try and get the point across to you.

Postcodes

Let's start with this. Oh man, I hate having to go over this one, over and over again. Here goes - postcodes have nothing at all to do with counties, whether in an administrative sense, or in a ceremonial sense. If you look at your postcode, you will find a letter and a number. The letter stands for the main sorting office. L means Liverpool, CH means Chester. L doesn't stand for Merseyside, which you would think is obvious due to Merseyside beginning with M and not L. The number represents your local sorting office. Under L (Coppras Hill) my local sorting office is number twelve, which covers most of what is West Derby. Contrary to myth, it's not synonymous with West Derby. They're merely administrative constructs of which a company (Royal Mail) organises it's operations. The original plan was to close Copperal Hill entirely, dividing the L area between CH and WA. Only the CH part was ever implemented. That said, after what's happened recently, it may happen after all, but even if it does, it won't mean we've moved from Merseyside to...ahem...Warringtonshire?

Local authorities and local identity

Are not synonymous with one another. There's no Knowsley, Sefton, Halton or Wirral identities that bar from a strange minority (mainly those who work in local government) believe in. There is a St Helens identity but this isn't synonymous with the borough of the same name, only the town that is inside of it. There is a Liverpool identity, but it's identity is larger than the borough with the same name, (the opposite of St Helens). It's not easy to define where it starts and ends but generally, it gets gradually weaker the further out you get from the core.

There really is no such place as Knowsley. There is such place as Huyton though and Kirkby. There's no place called Wirral. There is a peninsula called The Wirral Peninsula, called 'The Wirral' for short. It is an aspect of physical geography, not human geography and so has little or nothing to do with anything in regards to local governance or identity. There are such places as Birkenhead, Wallasey, Hoylake etc.

Liverpool/Merseyside branding

This isn't really the same issue, Kat, though it is related. Merseyside, as a political term, came about to provide what would be seen as a politically neutral term to what was always going to be, and what for years previous it unofficially had been - that being a Liverpool metropolitan area. It was mainly for the benefit of proper towns which were on the periphery, namely Southport and St Helens, but also Chester, which was to be included but left out in the final redraft. It was pointless though, because Merseyside=Liverpool and that's what everyone outside of the area thinks - and ignoring local government arrangements, they are essentially correct. So a snob on the periphery who didn't want anything to do with Liverpool, equally wanted nothing to do with Merseyside. Essentially, it made little difference.

In recent years, it's been noted by the Merseyside boroughs that Liverpool is, in fact, a much better brand than Merseyside. Liverpool is world famous, whereas Merseyside is only nationally infamous. All the boroughs have realised that there is a lot of potential to be taped. The Wirral may have lower car insurance premiums with the CH postcode proving the illusion that it's a small home counties-esque place, but it also gets next to no investment, no jobs creation etc. It relies on the right bank for most of this. The only reason Peel are interested in the Wirral Waters scheme, is because they see the Wirral for what it is, that being the other side of Liverpool with still lower land values. The tunnel tolls don't help, of course, which we'll talk about in the next paragraph.

Metropolitan Governance

Again, this is not quite the same as what I covered in the previous paragraph, though it it related to some extent. I've argued for a while that we need a return of this authority with powers currently administered by joint boards set up to fill the void after the removal of the county council, and also to replace the regional development agency and the regional assembly, with maybe some other responsibilities from central government.

I am not advocating the removal of local councils. They will still provide their normal day to day functions, such as surfacing roads, refuse collection etc, though they will be removed from joint boards which run things like transport, police etc, which will become the sole responsibility of the metropolitan council/assembly. I can hear Evertonian's cries of removal of democracy and how it's a smack in the face for democracy, as well as millions of years of Wirral history and national identity. But let's look at the reality. At present, you have a local authority, which you elect three reps to, who sends representatives to make decisions on a joint board with four, sometimes five, other authorities, of which you have no say in who's elected to. You have no say who your local council send to the boards, let alone who the other authorities send. If we transfer these to the metropolitan authority, probably with a mayor, you influence this directly at the poll booth. Only a metropolitan authority can make decisions that are in the interests of the city region. Scrapping the tunnel tolls would possibly be seen as a good move by such an authority because it would help improve cohesion and help investment for the Wirral, problems the likes of Knowsely and St Helens on their own, may not see as a big deal.

This is the part where the relationship between Liverpool and Manchester is used as an analogy, claiming that putting these two places in the same authority would be the same, but Scouse imperialists don't like this because Manchester would dominate. The fact that the relationship between Liverpool and Manchester is entirely different than between Liverpool and Wirral or Manchester and Salford, is totally discounted. The fact is, the Liverpool City Region exists. It has a core, inner city and suburbs and then, far out, smaller satellite towns. Is can be defined by travel to work, travel to shop, travel to get pissed and have a one night stand areas. The North West cannot be defined in any such sense. It was created for the sake of geographical neatness and nothing else. Manchester is bigger than Liverpool, though the size difference isn't as drastic as some claim. Interestingly, the City of Manchester is smaller than the City of Liverpool, so go figure. However, despite it being bigger, trendy and central government approved, Liverpool is not and never will be a satellite town of Manchester. Liverpool's too big and too far. Even if a regional authority was set up and did the worst, propping up Manchester and neglecting Liverpool to the extent that Liverpool declines into a ghost town, it still won't have the big city, satellite town relationship Liverpool and Southport have, or Manchester and Bury have. Liverpool would simply be a run down, desolate place in it's own vacuum. Manchester's well being is not Liverpool's gain. Liverpool's well being is, however, to the benefit of Birkenhead, Kirkby and Bootle, exactly the same way it is for Speke, West Derby or Kirkdale. That's why devolution to the metropolitan level makes much more sense and would benefit all parts of the city region.

Gareth

October 26th, 2007, 04:23 PM

More personal insults.

Who moderates this board?

I've come on here trying to have a discussion and point out some inaccuraces and have been bullyed into not wanting to come on this site again.

Well done.

Oh please, you're the one going on about not wanting to associate yourself with the city you come from, because you feel it has a bad rap, in the way that the Wirral, a totally separate place doesn't.

The one thing I cannot abide is snobbery. You have an identity crisis, of which the Liverpool City Region concept aggravates. I'm happy for you to deny such a thing exists if it helps your state of mind, but you're better not reading these threads if that's what you want, as you'll never win the argument and, thus, will never achieve peace of mind.

Honestly, I'm really happy that you found your way to a better life, in a nicer part of the world. Maybe I'll hide in the back of a tunnel-bound lorry and smuggle myself in, one day, so I also can have a nice carefree life, complete with sharing tea and scones with the Mad Hatter and the Cheshire Cat.

paulmac35

October 26th, 2007, 07:38 PM

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 10:04 PM

:ohno:I will talk with my neighbour steve next week and see what he has to say on the matter, but fact we dont like being part of Liverpool, if you think we do pop over to tranmere rovers and start chanting there, in just the same way as it would be stupid to go and chant at Liverpools grounds about being part of Manchester, see if you come out alive.

what part of what I am saying doesnt make sense apart from the fact that your so full of wanting to wreck wirral,not content with destroying the credibility of your own city you wish to destroy ours.

we are self sufficient and certainly will be more so in a couple of years time, historically though Liverpool has always screwed wirral, look at how you rob us with your so called "mersey travel", Ive never come across a situation where a company can not only control access to Liverpool, via road, but also by rail & sea, and now your going to screw us over this stupid bloody tram idea, no doubt the tolls and rail fairs will increase, why would I want to travel to bldy kirkby? isnt it about time you lot started footing your own bills or are you screwing council tax too?

you muck up your own area for years and years and now you want to do the same here, and you think we should be greatfull, greatfull for what? an incompitent:Liverpool council, a council that lets the world now how well it can screw things like the mathew street festival, and needless to say countless other things, next year is your year of reconing, next year you will screw up big time, you have the worlds stage watching you too, so go ahead, make my day do what you have always done historically!

we are a small peninsula, we could and will be far more sufficient per head of population than Liverpool will ever be. we have a thirty year regeneration plan already in place.

fact of the matter is you just cant hack the wirral full stop, if it didnt matter this thread wouldnt be the way it is, but beleive me the sentiment is the same, were not Liverpool, we will never benefit by anything that Liverpool does because historically you always screw up, business wise you screwed up big time yesterday with your silly no more one beds, mixed only oh and why you doing it? oh because Manchester thought it was a good idea!"rofl", Manchester and Idea in the same sentence!!
no doubt you can kiss shanghi and King edward towers good bye, hows a construction company going to maximse capital by building two and three bedroom flats? certainly over here the fire department are not in favor of familys living in tower blocks due to the risk of fire and trying to evacuate a building carring a baby down several flights of stairs because the lift isnt working, so, wheres the joined up thinking in three bed flats in Liverpool come from? hows that going to maximise capital for the investor? why is the busniss comunity so up in arms about it?
no, were not interested in your Liverpool, you keep it.
just like we want to keep our wirral they way it is, run by local councils elected by local people, no have to be controlled by a stupid Liverpool, we had outrage a few years back when Mersey travel tried to put the tolls up to pay for the tram scheme, so, there you go, we dont want your council we dont want your regional assembly, just like you wouldnt like a Manchester regional assembly, we dont want a Liverpool regional assembly, I only hope though at the end of the day that its put to a vote.
because I know how I would vote
kat:ohno::ohno:

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 10:12 PM

Paul, I am not disbuting the post code thing it has been explained to me love, I do understand the rational behind it, and if as you say it doesnt matter how come my insurance covers gone down?
if its so insignificant and doesnt matter why did that happen as like you say its only sorting offices in chester and Liverpool, our mail goes to chester then on to prenton dell, I know that because ive collected parcels from there.
My point is by changing from a Liverpool sorting office to a Chester sorting office seems to have had a positive effect on insurance cover.
kat

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 10:16 PM

Blabber, so were stupid enough that we dont beleive the swan song your peddling? trams being beneficial to wirral, get real mate, there was a near on riot over here the last time go look it up in the wirral globe, why should we fund something you dont need, you have an underground system , Manchester doesnt thats why it got the trams. Its really nice to know just how a small sample of people really view us over here on the wirral, you view us as some how your doing us a favour?
yeah right,
kat
http://archive.thisiswirral.co.uk/2005/11/9/23572.html
do these people think the same way as you blabber?

kung_fuzi

October 26th, 2007, 10:44 PM

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 11:16 PM

yeah we do share the underground well a very small part of it actually before it becomes an overground, what i am saying is why is it so expensive to travel across to Liverpool? have you travelled on a ferry recently and come across to the wirral? why does a company have total stranglhold on both rail, sea and road? surely to make something more competitive and fair we should have different operators for the road?
anyway we will have to wait and see how this pans out at the end of the day were all free to come and go to different areas within the UK, if we so choose, and no doubt I will if things do happen to take a turn for the worst just like I did with sadly Morecambe, really does upset me that, to see how a once popular areas become so run down , most public toilets and things gone, not like over here on the wirral *sighs* like all good things smashed and ruined in the end, like poor iraq, plundered and lawless, and why? because of the west, (poor sods)
kat

kung_fuzi

October 26th, 2007, 11:38 PM

yeah we do share the underground well a very small part of it actually before it becomes an overground

The underground and the overground are all part of the same system,giving all of the the Wirral suberbs easy access to the centre-Liverpool City.

the golden vision

October 26th, 2007, 11:42 PM

we are self sufficient and certainly will be more so in a couple of years time, historically though Liverpool has always screwed wirral, look at how you rob us with your so called "mersey travel", Ive never come across a situation where a company can not only control access to Liverpool, via road, but also by rail & sea, and now your going to screw us over this stupid bloody tram idea, no doubt the tolls and rail fairs will increase, why would I want to travel to bldy kirkby? isnt it about time you lot started footing your own bills or are you screwing council tax too?:lol: Did you say worked in local government? the wirral self sufficient? the borough of wirral has jobs defecit of 50,000,it supports 93,000 jobs for a population of 330,000,Liverpool 230,000 jobs,440,00.The wirral has the same jobs ratio as Sefton,in other words it's largely a commuter borough and we al know where they largely commute to. You haven't even got a basic understanding of the subject you are discussing.

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 11:50 PM

yeah at a premium price, you screw us to travel to your city because you cant screw anybody else! you further screw us by telling us that some how a tram link to kirkby will some how benefit us? off your trolley! lost the plot one over the eight ball! gone with the wind!
you want it all your own way, we just want to be left alone, once your so called ill thought out city center starts to get more traffic congested due to all the new flats, traffic will become even worse, look at your own councils view on traffic charging in the city center, and no doubt you will screw us for that too considering most people whom sadly have to work in Liverpool will not only be screwd by tunnel taxes but we will be screwed by your councils traffic charging policys too! hey your on to a no looser idea but then isnt that the scouser sikie? to make money at any cost? as long as its not us?
saw alot of that over in Liverpool and to be honest, its the one aspect I didnt like, I am not saying all are the same, that would be silly but I saw enough to realise there are some deep seated issues in Liverpool deep seated enough for me not to want to live there, *sighs*

kat,
I can after all only comment on whats happend to me

Joe the red

October 26th, 2007, 11:53 PM

kat2

October 26th, 2007, 11:58 PM

golden, yes, at the moment it is but head for head Liverpools population gainst the small wirral population theres more working on wirral than on Liverpool due to its numbers alone, and I dont go off statistics! everyone knows there screwed to avoid paying tax's and so on!
anyway as I have said before, if theres a vote thats fine, if their isnt a vote then I can always walk!
kat
bit silly really trying to put a point across in an over dominant scouser thread, no doubt the same would happen if we became part of liverpool regional assembly, more hot air more screwing your neighbours and convincing them its for their own good, you seem to be good at that take alook at your own city before all this hype, which will no doubt blow over, then, sadly if were part of your bigger picture no doubt we will go down with you too! thats the plan though isnt it? you really know your screwed, signs of that was around regarding the mathew street fiasco, now next year when that belly flops no doubt you will be looking for more funds to plunder to make your city great at the cost of the small areas, yeah your going to say invest in the city jobs and so on, ! bull!
anyway no point in trying to educate since most probably didnt attend school anway
the blind leading the blind, oh nooo, the titanics sinking all the crew have issed off but the captains convinced his ships unsinkable, stuff that say the crew! were off mate! *rofl*

Joe the red

October 27th, 2007, 12:06 AM

Good God! :ohno:

I need a drink

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 12:12 AM

yo need a drink, I got screwed this morning trying to educate you lot well late I was , here, heres a bottle of wine?
kat
thank god its saturday tommorrow

the golden vision

October 27th, 2007, 12:14 AM

Excellent point GV. I suppose it's a bit to much to expect you or anyone to know the number of 'economically active' people on the Wirral. Nationally it's about 50% of the overall population. If that was mirrored on the Wirral, the jobs defecit could be nearer 70000. Or is that too simplistic an approach?

That's about right Joe,50%.For cities it's higher,Liverpool's figure is below the average but it's still comfortably the main ecomomic driver of the city region.

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 12:16 AM

its the main economic driver because its the city, its also the biggest spender too! fact!
we are a smaller population on the wirral in comparison with Liverpool, or are you saying that most of Liverpool is out of work due to wirral people travelling over and pinching your jobs?
kat:bash:

Martin S

October 27th, 2007, 12:28 AM

Please don't see Liverpool's tram system as an imposition on the people of Wirral. Don't forget that in terms of transport investment, Wirral has done very well in the last two decades with Rock Ferry - Hooton electrification and its extension to Ellesmere Port and Chester plus a programme of new stations including the extremely expensive Conway Park.Then both Wirral and Seacombe ferry terminals have been renewed - so you have not done that badly really.

I am by no means anti-Wirral, being a Wirralian by birth and frequent visitor.

My wife and I rented a house in Port Sunlight a few years ago. We liked living there but we would go into Liverpool in the evenings often twice or more a week. But we would meet people there who boasted that they hadn't been to Liverpool for fifteen or more years! Why are people so narrow?

I love Liverpool - it is the greatest city in the world - but I also love Wirral - fantastic places like Thurstaston Hill or the Dee Estuary, walking along the seafront at Parkgate or the beautiful gardens at Ness. Most of these places I remember from my early childhood but still enjoy visiting.

Wirral is lucky to have Liverpool. Liverpool is lucky to have Wirral. Let's keep it that way.

Pobbie

October 27th, 2007, 12:31 AM

Evertonian, I know you said you weren't going to post here anymore (a shame in my opinion) but I hope you at least keep reading:

Listen we're not going to agree on this.

I believe that a Liverpool City Region would result in money going from Wirral, Sefton, Knowsley, etc to Liverpool for some of the cash shortfalls and hair brained schemes. Things like the trams that will be of no benefit to the Wirral whatsoever. Meanwhile we will never see the back of these god forsaken fucking tunel tolls (ironically THE best thing you could do to make Wirral people feel truly part of the city and not locked out and charge to get in and out).

It's obvious to me where the balance of power will lean and where the priorites will be. One only has to look at what is happening in this region with the ballance of things between Manchester and Liverpool. You can't tell regionalism is working for Liverpool when the overwhelming evidence is Manchester has took the cream off the top.

Fundamentally I don't trust the politicins in Liverpool as far as I can throw them. The squabling and infighting and lack of untiy (even in the run up to CoC 08) is sad. The planning is a joke with our reputation as liverpool being a place one can come and build in tatters after failed project, after failed project. I KNOW I'M NOT ALONE IN THINKING THIS BECAUSE AT ONE POINT OR ANOTHER I HAVE READ YOU ALL MAKE THE SAME POINT WHEN A PROJECT IS DISAPPOINTINGLY COMPROMISED, SCALED DOWN OR EVEN SCRAPPED.

I wouldn't want them in charge of Wirral Waters...just like I don't like them being in charge of planning of Liverpool Waters or any of the Liverpool schemes I am so proud to see.

Furthermore (and this is the most relevant and most important point I will make here) The strategy in Liverpool is to build the city centre and hope....HOPE!....that the wealth will filter out. A flawed strategy that will end in tears in my opinion (and a few accademics and social comentators). I hope to god with every ounce of my soul that I am wrong like.

I don't want that strategy affecting the Wirral where I pay taxes and where I live. I want the money raised in Wallasey to be spent in Wallasey. If anything the lesson of the 21C politics is to devolve power as much as possible....not to centralise it even more.
When you say everything would be invested into "Liverpool", what do you mean exactly? Liverpool city centre or Liverpool borough as a whole? Because if you seriously believe the latter you're completely barking up the wrong tree.

As I said earlier in the thread, I'm not necessarily supporting the notion of a Greater Liverpool City Region, but I still don't see how New Brighton would suffer from it any more than West Derby would (tunnel tolls aside, which I agree are unfair and should be scrapped). The city centre is thriving and receiving investment far more than anywhere else in the conurbation, but that's because everything (well, nearly everything) happens there - work, shopping, nightlife, you name it.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that it is highly questionable that the city centre should be singled out so much like this. What I can't possibly agree with is the assertion that the whole of Liverpool borough is the recipient of such highly favourable treatment (if indeed that is your implication). It isn't. Far from it. Within Liverpool borough there are also many folks who are concerned that the council is focusing too much attention on the city centre and not other parts of borough (like West Derby). But that's besides the point - the point is: a Greater Liverpool City Region, for better or worse, wouldn't treat the left bank of the Mersey any worse than the right bank, as both would have equal representation. The only anomaly to this is the fact that the core of the region (the city centre) is predominantly on the right bank, which could be combatted by 1) focusing more on extending the core across the left bank, such as with the Wirral Waters scheme and 2) scrapping the tunnel tolls to make it fairer on those who have to use the tunnels to access the core (which countless Wirralians do, like it or not).

I respect your opinions though and (though I don't expect you to believe this) I have listened and have tried to take them in.

I hope I havent resorted to cheap jibes and insults. Lets just agree to disagree.
I respect your opinions too, and I apologise if I have come across as hostile towards you. The last thing I want to do is scare away forumers who contribute interesting debate to proceedings. Peace.

One last thing about the subject - I respect the individual right of any person to declare their own identity. However, saying you're not from Liverpool does not automatically equate with saying you don't live its city region. The former is subjective, the latter a fact in my opinion. Don't confuse sentimental identity with political and economic logic.

Villiers Terrace

October 27th, 2007, 12:42 AM

no point in trying to educate since most probably didnt attend school anway

...as opposed to your attainment which results in you being able to read, write and reason in a clear, logical and legible manner.:)
How nice.

:hahaha: :lol: :nuts: :clown: :happy: :lol:

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 12:44 AM

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 12:46 AM

Villiers, I cant read or write, its my dog typing this, and my microsoft speak n spell checkin it too!, u forget I went to ballet schowel!
anyone got any beer for my dog?

Villiers Terrace

October 27th, 2007, 01:02 AM

anyone got any beer for my dog?

You might want to take it off your head first.

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 01:04 AM

checks, fhunnie!

Martin S

October 27th, 2007, 01:23 AM

Martin, yes, it has improved to get people across to Liverpool though hasnt it? whilst it would be ignorant of me to say theres been no investment, it has come at a price, you will remember the outcry regarding using toll money to fund a tram system? the point I am trying to raise here is that, Liverpool has a very good Loop system, its served by a regular and frequent service, unlike Manchester which has no loop system. yes, improvements have been made along the rock ferry line, but this is mainly for commutors to Liverpool, whom sadly have to work in Liverpool due to in sufficient jobs on the wirral.
I love Liverpool too but I can honestly say, I woundnt want to live their anymore, not because of its people, no, I have some lovely friends, I was after all a resident in cressington park for several years. The reason why I left Liverpool was the same reason I left Morecambe it was due to how the council managed it, nothing more, not the people there lovely, same with most of the areas I have lived in, its always about how councils manage your council tax money if its invested wisley and attracts investment and confidence, then thats fine, but it should never be at the expense of others.
kat

But sometimes I think this argument is taken too far. For example, you could say that you have to walk into town because sadly there are no jobs in the road where you live.

How far do you go with this argument? I have always seen Liverpool and Wirral acting together as an economic unit.

Wirralians have alway commuted into Liverpool and, since the opening of the Mersey Railway tunnel in 1886, the borough has contributed more workers to the Liverpool economy than to its own economy. Even before that, John Laird, the shipbuilder wanted to make Birkenhead a new town as a suburb of Liverpool (in those days, travel by water was easier than most land transport).

However, Wirral has also done extremely well out of the Liverpool economy with some of the wealthiest parts of the region being in the borough.

Of course it is true that improvements to the Merseyrail network will assist commuting into Liverpool but don't think that they have not contributed a great deal to the regeneration of Wirral. The extension to Chester opened up a whole new source of employment to the people of east Wirral plus access to shopping facilities, whilst Conway Park enabled commuters on the New Brighton and West Kirby branches to gain access to central Birkenhead and kick-start the regeneration of that area.

Also, the issue of tunnel tolls are overplayed. The reason that our two tunnels are tolled is because they are estuary crossings and are therefore not funded by the Department of Transport. That is why practically all of the crossings across the Thames are free with the exception of the downstream Dartford Bridge.

Tolls are not just there to finance trams in Liverpool and Knowsley or railway electrification in Wirral but to pay for the cost of maintaining the tunnels and to pay their running costs such as policing, lighting and ventilation as well as to pay off the original construction debt and to fund safety improvements such as the cross passages and safety shelters constructed in the last few years.

I am sure that there would be nothing better for Wirral than for the Liverpool economy to become stronger, even if it meant more commuters from the borough into the city centre. We are not talking about separate areas but as a single economic unit centred on central Liverpool.

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 01:36 AM

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 01:41 AM

Exactly screw the rest, you live in squaller, its the city thats first, doesnt matter how its managed by its idiotic council its the city first, and if the council screws up, hey doenst matter, it can screw the wirral for more cash, support the great city of Liverpool screw the areas around for the good of the great city! screw the people be screwed by the council be screwed again by toll fees that should have been settled years ago, then just for good measure screw us when were at rock bottom screw us for travelling into your city center with a congestion charge, screw us agian put our council tax up to pay for your councils incompitance, then screw us again so we all leave wirral and it becomes barron, then, hopefully a glimmer of light the people that left wirral went to Live in Manchester, guess what Machester regional assembley, guess who there going to screw?

JUXTAPOL

October 27th, 2007, 02:02 AM

Martin S

October 27th, 2007, 02:14 AM

Martin, I am pleased you beleive in what you have written because sadly, I dont, not to insult you, but rather how has the improvements to the rail network encouraged economic development in the areas because apart from conway park , the line always existed, I certainly havent seen any regeneration as a subsequent of improvements to the rock ferry line,
The conway park station is handy I suppose for the people of Liverpool getting off their if they wish to go shopping here on the wirral. You dont feel that the wirral globe and MP frank Field whom voiced concerns in Parliment were right then, that the extra funds levid from the tolls on the tunnels were nothing to do with funding the building of the tram line ? I suggest perhaps, a word with Frank Field MP for parliment might be in order, since he rasied it there on behalf of his constituants?
wirral council has s deficit of 23,000 affordable homes, which it urgently needs to build, we have already seen investment not due to better rail travel to liverpool but due to Peels announcements, but unlike liverpool their scaled over 30 years, you know, the usual rubbish, we cant have all this building going on in Liverpool and wirral too, so it must be phased work on the wirral, phased over 30 years, sadly the rt hon gentleman who was telling me this pointed out that he wont be around to see the works he set about putting in motion, 30 years the people of wirral will have to wait, this of course isnt a Liverpool thing, its a government impact assesment thing!
so no matter which way we go we stand to loose, and Like i have said, I am free to move about, Ive certainly done that several times, it just seems sad, another area screwed by a dominant area, dominant at any cost, we are the mighty city!
yeah, seen it all before, like a record really
very sad too:ohno:

Kat,

You and I are seeing this from opposite points of view. You see Liverpool and Wirral as rival areas, I see them as parts of the same area.

Wirral is, on average, more prosperous than Liverpool. That's because it is a pleasant semi-rural part of our city region but the centre of its wealth has always come from its city centre - Liverpool.

Coming back to the tram scheme, all that is doing is to give the eastern suburbs of Liverpool and parts of Knowsley the sort of access to the the city centre that large parts of Wirral have had in some cases for over a century.

The line from Rock Ferry to Chester and Ellesmere Port may have 'always existed' but the provision of electrification and new stations (coupled with the linking to the Merseyrail system) gave far improved accessibility not only to Liverpool City Centre but also to Chester and Ellesmere Port plus not only giving access to greater employment opportunities but also gave employers in Liverpool, Chester and Ellesmere Port access to a greater pool of labour, so our whole region benefits.

Conway Park was a pure Birkenhead regeneration investment as it is not in the heart of a commuter area.

In fact, when Wirral was getting all that transport investment, very little was being spent on the Liverpool side of the Mersey.

I think you read my post too quickly, I did not say that tunnel tolls were not to be part used to fund the tram system but that the tolls are mainly concerned with the financing and operation of the tunnel.

As the economy of Liverpool city centre is pivotal to the whole region, there is nothing essentially wrong in raising money for transport improvements in this way. After all, chances are that we will soon have congestion charging, which will part pay for the public transport schemes such as this.

I think you need to look again at the Peel plans for regeneration. I have to admit to being somewhat sceptical that Wirral could sustain such a massive investment. If I am wrong, then that is almost certainly due to the proximity to a world famous city.

As for the development being progressed over 30 years, the Liverpool Waters scheme is planned over 40 years. So you haven't done too badly.

Even if Wirral Waters never came about but the Liverpool scheme did, Wirral would still benefit enormously due to it being within easy commuting distance of Liverpool.

Wirral has always done very well out of Liverpool. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that but please get out of this narrow 'them and us' mentality which is so damaging to our city and region.

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 02:14 AM

Juxtapol,
yes and no, yes because I care i care about Liverpool, I dont care for its council, I care because sadly I remember how great Morecambe once was, I care because when I walk along the promenard now in Morecambe and see the tiniest of things dissapear, it upsets me, no toilets, no beautifull tendered flower beds just concrete, no illuminations, just a few small sets of lights at christmas, no piers, and next no promenard superdome all sold off behind the scenes, guess whos behind it? urban splash and Lancaster city, did they consult the people of Morecambe? no, but hey there doing the good for the great city of Lancaster ! doenst matter about morecambe, you get your bins emptied you peasants, how dear you ask for more! were the great Lancaster we encourage enterprise for the good of the residents of Morecamb, whom have to travel five miles to get their, oh and to add good measure, youve got no more hospitals, five miles of heavily congested traffic means hopefully if its an emergency you should be dead, but were saving money you didnt need that hospital, oh and by the way were cutting your trains too!
seen it all before, for the greater good of the city! its very true though! your all telling the truth, I dont despute that, it will certanly be for the good of the city, Lancaster said that, guess what it says to investors in Morecambe, cant let you build their, congestion, roads full up, too many people travelling to Lancaster to work due to us stopping development in Morecambe,
Yup been there seen that your all telling the truth! Liverpool will be the super city! hope your really proud that you would screw an area at your own cost, prooves one thing, you dont care for our feelings, only for the greater good of your own city, and at any cost! and unlike any of you, I have first hand experience of seing this put into practice just do a few searches in google regarding Lancaster and Morecambe!
kat

Martin S

October 27th, 2007, 02:18 AM

Oh Kat, please don't respond to that last post of mine. I've just read your post 198 and it is a typical 'Friday night' post. You can't be taking a friendly interest in developments in Liverpool and then get plunged into this sort of bitterness if there is not some other reason that has nothing to do with this issue.

Unfortunately, due to my work committments at the moment, Friday night is one of the few times I get to make many posts on this site.

Martin S

October 27th, 2007, 02:21 AM

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 02:25 AM

Martin, its just a point of view nothing more, its not personal, and I hope no one takes it that way, its just how things are run at council level, I love all this investment in Liverpool I am really both proud and pleased that at long last its happening! it should have happend alot sooner, but, its happening.
My axe is not with the passion of people on here, thats understandable, my axe has and always will be around governance!
I would be proud if I was a Liverpool resident.
kat

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 02:45 AM

But lets not be selfish, we want investment too, were sick of travelling to Liverpool and Manchester for shopping, at a premium to us, which currently it is! personally I dont think merseytravel should have complete strangle hold on both rail, road and sea, tunnel maintainance, good god! how olds the tunnel, how come scotland can abloish fees for travelling over some of its bridges, and here we are going through a tunnel thats so old, it should have paid for itself 40 times over! if a modern day bridge can pay for itself (including its maintanance) then why this continouse increase year on year, tell you what I wouldnt mind a healthy share in it!, is it really good to increase dependance on a city at the expense of the regions around it?
I certainly dont think so, and judging by posters on here when they talk about kensington, and edge lane, they dont appear to think so too, same with brunswick, do the residents of brunswick feel there should be no investment in their area to pay for the city only, and how about Garston? do they feel the same, should all that investment in the business park and parkway south not have been saved for the greater good of trying to create more potential investment in the city center, there is nothing or no one on here that can convince me, that investment in one area is going to be for the greater good of all the others, I am sure if every single investment project was stopped right now, and the council of Liverpool said to its populas, err, lets concentrate on the city, doesnt matter that you live in damp squalled drug ridden areas, its the city you understand, we must invest in the city, we dont care about kensington, Everton, were going to create more congestion so we can charge you more money,oh and for good measure were going to rob you stupid if you try to travel in by car, you know congestion, after all were trying to create congestion, so we can make more money out of you! we will even charge a little extra to get you on our trains so we can pack you in like sardines and charge you the earth, for the greater good you understan, cant understand though why we didnt think of this high density living and congestion, its a win win scheme, convince everyone to live in the city center pay a premium in council tax then pay more to drive around it! brilliant!
great idea density living, now where on here did I read about that?
but think how you can make money from this, charge to go into Liverpool Charge to go out

JUXTAPOL

October 27th, 2007, 02:51 AM

Well maybe you should have a go at Wirral governance more than Liverpool governance, maybe not point out all the perceived ills of Liverpool and what it has supposedly done against Wirral. So what if there is a limit on one bed flats in Liverpool, at least many are being built and will contiune to be in Liverpool, as opposed to Wirral which is lagging, Wirral needs to see more big developments attracted by its council, it's deprived areas fixed, it's unemployment crime and drugs problems sorted, just as Liverpool needs to.

Also why do you go on about all the charges that are applied in Liverpool to you, do you think that the residents of Liverpool will not be charged also...! What if i want to go to the Wirral, i will have to pay also to use a ferry/tunnel to go and shop visit there...!

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 03:02 AM

Juxtapol,
Beleive me, I do and too the right people too, they suffer me at a far closer distance! *g*! Wirrals in a conundrum, the Governemts done these silly impact assesments, and basically what it says is that if Liverpools developing the way it is the overall impact could go negative, meaning supply outstrips demand, that is why national government proposed phased works over time, recently Wirral did try, it has an affordable housing defacit of 23,000 sadly because the council didnt focus on all of wirral like it should conservatives jumped on this and said hey, what about investment in wallasey ? so now the 11 million is called into question.
Birkenhead has done alot regarding its past drugs history, it certainly doesnt appear to be as prolific as it once was.
Liverpools done nothing against wirral, never has as far as I can tell? we just want to govern our selfs and have a say in the regeneration of our towns and suberbs, just like I am sure you agree you would want that too, you wouldnt want Manchester telling you how to control your citys finances! sadly though, Liverpool for one reason or another seems to court controversy regarding its council, its council however are not its people, they too, just like the people of wirral can see the short comings of its council, neither are perfect, more tollerated!
kat

JUXTAPOL

October 27th, 2007, 03:21 AM

If Liverpool and Wirral weren't so closely linked, no tunnels/ferrry/jobs for Wirralians/large ex-Liverpool resident population etc then there would not be anything to discuss. It would be like Liverpool and Basingstoke together, no strong common history/links etc.

But there is, Liverpool and the Wirral, or should i say Liverpool and Birkenhead and New Brighton and Seacombe and Kirkby and Woolton etc have strong links and benefit from each other, so you can't suddenly have a breakaway penninsular, that has nothing to do with Liverpool, if you did you would be many times more worse off than working together with Liverpool, because the main draw is going to be Liverpool, and Liverpool will simply draw in all the benefits for itself if the Wirral chose to go alone.

This is not going to happen though as i am certain all 5 Merseyside councils will continue to work together, and using Liverpool as the main brand to attract investment.

Must go to bed now....Zzzzzzzz......Zzzzzzz.......Zzzzzzzz...........

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 03:45 AM

Juxtapol,
I cannot disagree with that, its a fact of life, but should we be governed at the expense of the area, should we loose the possible chance to improve the residents and its aminities life styles, or should we scupper it on a council that couldnt play a decent game of Monopoly! I say again, if your council was credible and fair then there would be no issue, its your councils mistake after mistake and its cant make our minds up yet, or lets do that because Manchesters doing it? I dont have confidence in that kind of talk, I certainly wouldnt invest in Liverpool with a council like that, will they wont they will they?
like I have posted, I can always move on if I am not happy thats my choice and, it will be something to consider should the issue arrise and it effect my financial well being!
kat

liverpolitan

October 27th, 2007, 10:40 AM

For the record Kat, my wife and I have been interested for some time in getting a house in Wirral. So, yes, I do believe in what I post and I do care very much about the part of the world that I grew up in.

Martin, there are some great houses on the river front near New Brighton, near Vale Park, which have fantastic river views. Move there, and set up a new webcam for us. They are not very expensive for their size. Thanks.

Martin S

October 27th, 2007, 11:21 AM

Martin, there are some great houses on the river front near New Brighton, near Vale Park, which have fantastic river views. Move there, and set up a new webcam for us. They are not very expensive for their size. Thanks.

I don't know Poli. I may decide that Liverpool was nothing to do with me at all and brick up the windows facing the river.

liverpolitan

October 27th, 2007, 11:22 AM

I don't know Poli. I may decide that Liverpool was nothing to do with me at all and brick up the windows facing the river.

:lol:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-16911881.rsp?pa_n=2&tr_t=buy This one looks fantastic! Within fairly easy walking distance of New Brighton station for trains. A short cycle ride to the ferry along the prom. Vale Park is lovely year round, with a nice cafe for breakfasts at the weekend. The Mags and other pubs around there are nice and relaxed. I think you should buy this. I will stay in your spare room (top floor facing river) now and then, as a nominal payment for having found this place for you.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-6596695.rsp?pa_n=1&tr_t=buy This one might suit you - but in my opinion it is over-priced by at least £15k maybe more. Its terrace is huge (you can get a decent view on MSN maps from above). I think the view from the terrace would be superb, dominated by St Peter and Pauls. Also, from the bedrooms you will be able to see all the towers of the central business district (interesting bit of shitty marketing that they only stress the Liverpool Bay views rather than those to Liverpool itself). Only 5 minutes up the hill from New Brighton station. Just splendid. Again, I will only stay occasionally as part of my finders fee, will always try to give you notice rather than just turning up.

Martin S

October 27th, 2007, 11:31 AM

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 02:08 PM

They say the truth hurts, simply put you know I am right!
Yes, we dont like Liverpool City Council, and certainly have no confidence in it becoming an entity with more responsibility, Perhaps your better off staying over in Liverpool and leave us quiet country folks to just get along fine on our own, were fed up of being ripped off by Liverpool and its idiotic transport policys, and its latest farce too, so, I agree Martin stay over there, brick up the windows, u never know your council might resurect a window tax.#
:bash::ohno:

Scarecrow

October 27th, 2007, 02:11 PM

What planet are you from Kat?

paulmac35

October 27th, 2007, 02:19 PM

ever thought about emigrating kat?

Paul D

October 27th, 2007, 02:26 PM

paulmac35

October 27th, 2007, 06:42 PM

I didn't realise how bitter they were,they must think we get free tunnel fares on this side because that seems to be their main gripe.People should question why they have to use the tunnels so often,working here perhaps?

I know when i drive through the tunnel. i put on my shell suit and grow my tache and speak in my best jamie carragher accent, and they let me go through for chuff all! :lol:

liverpolitan

October 27th, 2007, 06:57 PM

I didn't realise how bitter they were,they must think we get free tunnel fares on this side because that seems to be their main gripe.People should question why they have to use the tunnels so often,working here perhaps?

It's not "they": these people are cranks. In my experience, the large majority of people who live on the Wirral are perfectly well aware and very happy to be living in one of the nicest and most conveniently located parts of Greater Liverpool / Merseyside, call it what you will. This old "Wirral out of Merseyside" thing has always been a hobbyhorse for sad cranks. There are equivalents in Southport, as we know. They don't reflect public opinion.

Paul, I don't think we should ever use "us" and "them" language within Greater Liverpool. It is all "we".

paulmac35

October 27th, 2007, 07:12 PM

It's not "they": these people are cranks. In my experience, the large majority of people who live on the Wirral are perfectly well aware and very happy to be living in one of the nicest and most conveniently located parts of Greater Liverpool / Merseyside, call it what you will. This old "Wirral out of Merseyside" thing has always been a hobbyhorse for sad cranks. There are equivalents in Southport, as we know. They don't reflect public opinion.

Paul, I don't think we should ever use "us" and "them" language within Greater Liverpool. It is all "we".

I know, your right. The wirral out of merseyside campaign will never gain enough support (similar to the southport out of merseyside equivalent). It is mainly championed by snobs who think they live in some sort of utopia away from the inner city of Liverpool, when in fact they rely on it and will continue to, for their very existence. Thankfully, there are many forum members and indeed thousands of wirral workers who acknowledge this and are more than happy to be part of the Liverpool urban core/Merseyside.

I am not an expert on the tolls situation, but it is my understanding that the tolls would be even more expensive if the 5 merseyside boroughs didnt all contribute towards the costs of them (along with levies paid to the Merseyside fire and police forces) in our council taxes. Without the shared upkeep of the tunnels, these tolls would be a lot more than £1.30 i reckon. And as wirral motorists are easily the biggest users of the tunnels, they certainly get the best of the arrangement. Though in an ideal world, they should be free of course if this was possible.

Evertonian

October 27th, 2007, 08:14 PM

The wirral out of merseyside campaign will never gain enough support (similar to the southport out of merseyside equivalent).

Who's argueing for this? A few Hyacynth Bucket types in West Kirkby or Caldy?

I hope i'm not being lumped in with this. I clearly stated my support for a Merseyside Partnership.

Villiers Terrace

October 27th, 2007, 08:17 PM

ever thought about emigrating kat?

Sadly she did. From Yo.

Unless they can police their borders a bit better they should be closed down over this.

kat2

October 27th, 2007, 08:20 PM

As they say time will tell, we will see!
I am entitled to my opinion just like anyone else, theres nothing wrong after all in a democracy, by all acccounts you have nothing to worry about (so you say)
kat

Villiers Terrace

October 27th, 2007, 08:22 PM

Who's argueing for this? A few Hyacynth Bucket types in West Kirkby or Caldy?

I hope i'm not being lumped in with this. I clearly stated my support for a Merseyside Partnership.

Then, that Partnership is doomed to underachieve on behalf of both sides.

It's 'Liverpool' (in whatever way you choose to understand the concept) or continued failure.

Evertonian

October 27th, 2007, 08:25 PM

Continued failure?

4bn worth of investment.

Further 10bn for Liverpool Waters/Wirral Waters.

liverpolitan

October 27th, 2007, 08:27 PM

Who's argueing for this? A few Hyacynth Bucket types in West Kirkby or Caldy?

I hope i'm not being lumped in with this. I clearly stated my support for a Merseyside Partnership.

Evertonian if that is the case why vote that "Wirral has nothing to do with Liverpool"? Your own lifestyle and stated beliefs belie the vote you cast.

You can enjoy New Brighton and its history, and also be Liverpudlian. Look at London - people get really involved in their local area, eg Highgate, Hampstead, Greenwich, Richmond, Harrow, Sydneham etc..........they have civic societies, local history societies, and of course their own local councils. But people aren't pretending they aren't also part of Greater London. The only idiots who occasionally do that are greedy Tory snobs out in Orpington and Bromley who object in principle to any public spending and don't see why they - who drive 4x4s and Lexi - should be contributing a penny a year towards the costs of public transport for the metropolis. Of course, they then complain about congestion etc., because they are hypocrites.

Villiers Terrace

October 27th, 2007, 08:32 PM

Continued failure?

4bn worth of investment.

Further 10bn for Liverpool Waters/Wirral Waters.

Well, if you think that's the city starting to realise it's full potential we're already a massive success.

I don't, because we aren't and, under this administrative schism, we won't.

Evertonian

October 27th, 2007, 08:35 PM

Liverpolitain I think you're missing my point.

Happy to be scouse. Happy to be part of a partnership.

Don't want taxes, money or power going to the clowns at LCC, PARTICULARLY planning decisions.

Don't want the infastructure to constantly ignore Wirral (or other outer liverpool borough) concerns.

I mean what is going to be done about the ghetto that is vast tracts of Birkenhead? it won't be a priority. It'll be trams and L1....as it is now.

Villiers Terrace

October 27th, 2007, 08:41 PM

Hampstead is an ocean away from Peckham in terms of just about everything including distance, history, culture, ethnicity, poltics, outlook, wealth etc etc etc

They are both, however benefiting greatly by being constituent part of a whole deemed large, diverse and exciting enough to attract 70bn more investment per year more than we get, helped, in no small measure, by being represented under one Mayoral body and the attendent focussed initiatives that brings.

Evertonian

October 27th, 2007, 08:47 PM

finally some evidence.

all ive been asking for.

still want to know in what ways specifically the wirral and/or liverpool can benefit from this.

liverpolitan

October 27th, 2007, 08:53 PM

Evertonian, progress is a bit glacial on this one. Next time there is a forum meet-up, try to come along, as it would be a chance to meet some of the regulars and discuss this a bit. I am optimistic that if we carry on here for a further two or three hundred years you will be a dedicated city regionalist. I really do get glimmerings of progress towards a common understanding.

But, in some areas, it seems to be one step forward, one step backwards. I follow this topic closely, and have never ONCE - apart from with you and kat, seen any suggestion whasoever that Liverpool City Council would have any responsibility whatsoever for city regional affairs. The Mersey Partnership, for example, is entirely independent of LCC even though its based at Princes Dock. Where do you get this idea that LCC would be running things? Did you read it somewhere? I've never once seen it, honestly, apart from here. It's a bizarre idea.

Do we agree on these things?

1. A city region should not be dominated by the urban core authority, in this case Liverpool. Any governance arrangements for the city region need to protect the interests of all areas.

2. It should become cheaper and easier to cross the Mersey by car?

3. A city region should be about respecting and building up the strengths of its constituent parts: not like Germany annexing Poland for more living space.

4. Generally, council taxes and other charges should be kept as low as is reasonable, and be wisely and economically spent?

If we agree on those things, you are a city regionalist. A lot of the ideas about how to make Greater Liverpool work well in the future have similar principles and ideas and policies to those.

Somewhere, you've got this "Liverpool tax grab" thing, but it's just not like that. Within Wirral, there are transfers of wealth from West to East. How would you feel if the poshies in Heswall, Caldy, West Kirkby etc. complained about their money being spent to subsidise improvements in New Brighton or estates like Ford and Woodchurch?

Villiers Terrace

October 27th, 2007, 08:54 PM

finally some evidence.

all ive been asking for.

still want to know in what ways specifically the wirral and/or liverpool can benefit from this.

Because we're tossing around being utter imbeciles, pissing our brand up the wall, whilst the people of Venezuela are eagerly giving me, a f##cking paid designer in frikkin London, money off my monthly Travelcard via a deal struck with the Mayor.

That's how you do business.

Evertonian

October 27th, 2007, 08:58 PM

Ok yes I can agree with all of the above to be fair. Thats all I want is an equal partnership (why this can't just be "Merseyside" i'm still a bit perplxed by like).

I know it's boring now but christ I just wish we could get rid of the tolls ad increase cross river traffic. It isn't half a psycological barrier.

Still worried what incentive there will be to do somethingabout Birkenhead, when lets be honest, there doesn't seem to be much desire to do anything outside of L1 at the moment.

Will take a lot of convincing on that score, sorry.

Villiers Terrace

October 27th, 2007, 09:00 PM

...and by the way, the good people of Venezuela have never, will never, won't ever want to be cogniscent of the elusive magic you seem to think this 'Merseyside' might hold.

It won't happen.

Liverpool- world brand, positively reinforced 2 times a week into a billion homes across the world.

Merseyside? Behave.

Joe the red

October 27th, 2007, 09:04 PM

Good points Poli.

Just an observation but unfortunately the debate is running on two threads now. Having two distinct threads initially allowed forumers (from both sides of the debate) to extol the virtues of Wirral, of which there were many, which should demonstrate that we as a forum are not anti Wirral and could be used as a platform (if appropriate and desired) to demonstrate the potential role Wirral might have in a city region.

Villiers Terrace

October 27th, 2007, 09:06 PM

It isn't half a psycological barrier.

...caused by a physical one, but seperated nontheless by a distance only a fraction of the distance between Brent and Southwark, and sharing a whole lot more in common than either of them.

Villiers Terrace

October 27th, 2007, 09:08 PM

Good points Poli.

Just an observation but unfortunately the debate is running on two threads now.

Strangely echoing the needless stupidity of "the divide" we're talking about.

Evertonian

October 27th, 2007, 09:19 PM

...caused by a physical one, but seperated nontheless by a distance only a fraction of the distance between Brent and Southwark, and sharing a whole lot more in common than either of them.

Yes I totally agree with these statements to be fair.

I am so close to the Liverbirds it's unreal. Looking out of my window as I speak I can see so much of the waterfront and city centre.

kung_fuzi

October 28th, 2007, 04:38 PM

Ok yes I can agree with all of the above to be fair. Thats all I want is an equal partnership (why this can't just be "Merseyside" i'm still a bit perplxed by like).

Evertonian,if you can't get this then there really is no hope for you.
Villiers Terrace gives a short but very succinct answer in post 234.

Evertonian

October 28th, 2007, 05:26 PM

This debate has been very interesting but ultimately you cannot (wel not for long anyway) wrest power from the people.

This City Region will never be more than what Merseyside already is because if it was ever suggested that powers go over the water....ANY powers or tax raising exceutive power it would feature heavily in the local press.

There would be a MASSIVE public campaign against it I can assure you.

You are all welcome to believe otherwise but believe me there would be murder. They simply won't have it. You cannot annexe whole sections of areas on a whim and without groundswell agreement. You cannot force "scouseness" down peoples throats, many of whom are 4th or even 5th generation descendents and have lived on the Wirral all their lives.

So yes lets co-operate and yes let's have a partneship and agree on things to benefit the entire region, but just drop any idea of a Liverpool powerhouse dominating the region. It won't happen.

If businesmen and politicians want to rebrand Merseyside as 'Liverpool' then fair enough....but thats all it will ever be.

I really am, totally finished with this conversation now. I've had my heritage questioned and have had people who don't even know me tell me I have an identity crisis. I have no idea who modeates this board but it's shocking. Especially when Kat has repeatedly been abused and i've reported it twice.

Think about how you want this board to operate. A free and open discussion where people of all opinions can come on and chat about Liverpool's rennaisance....or a place where a bunch of beligerant cranks who don't listen agreee amongst themselves.

Goodbye.