According to the Office of National Statistics Leicester Unitary Authority has a larger population (289K) than both Nottingham (286K) and Newcastle Upon Tyne (270K). This is the population within the official boundaries of each city and does not include areas that are contiguous with the city but controlled by a different council.

In all three cases the relevant authority for each urban area (as defined by the ONS) is responsible for collecting revenues and providing services. They are not permitted to collect revenue from outside their area of influence; though service provision tends to be a little more fluid these days. Thus: Leicester city council can not demand that residents of Blaby pay their council tax to New Walk, nor can NCC insist that the people of Rushcliffe pay into the coffers at, erm, wherever (Clifton?). To the same end, Leicester, Nottingham and Newcastle city councils may attempt to influence the surrounding borough councils, and even to form partnerships with them for reasons of mutual interest, but they cannot, ultimately, have any real say on the policies of those councils; which are often (though not always) of an entirely different political stripe. Likewise, money spent in Clifton goes to Clifton Borough Council via the business rates and not to Nottingham. Ditto for Oadby and Leicester. By the same token people who work in the cities may not necessarily live in them. Nor is it a given that they will choose to spend their money there (as Fosse Park proves).

Therefore, it is, in my view, a waste of time to talk about Metropolitan Areas or Greater Urban Areas as if they have any real existence beyond the minds of city councillors dreaming of expansion and retail analysists studying shopping trends and catchment areas. Whilst it's true that Nottingham's location in the south of its county does make it an attractive destination for shoppers from South East Deryshire and North Leicestershire it also has to compete with Sheffield and Meadowhall for the retail £s of people in North Notts. Just as Leicester city centre competes with Nottingham city centre to attract people from North Leics and SE Derbys.

The completion of the Highcross in 2008 will make it even harder for Nottingham to attract people from Leicestershire to spend in their city, thus lowering revenues for NCC from that quarter and boosting them for LCC. Even the more modest new Eagle Centre (AKA Westfields, Derby) will have an effect on Nottingham's retail income in the long term. Even if you allow for the expansion of the Broadmarsh that's still quite a few years away. Years in which both Leicester and Derby can, and will, continue expanding their retail offers.

What NUT has to do with this, I have No idea :lol:

I can see this is going to go down well!
The forum seems a bit dead at the moment so perhaps we need something to argue about.

I updated the population figures. Seems Nottm's catching up again.

Oh look! There's Danz. Quelle Surprise

According to the Office of National Statistics Leicester Unitary Authority has a larger population (289K) than both Nottingham (286K) and Newcastle Upon Tyne (270K). This is the population within the official boundaries of each city and does not include areas that are contiguous with the city but controlled by a different council.

In all three cases the relevant authority for each urban area (as defined by the ONS) is responsible for collecting revenues and providing services. They are not permitted to collect revenue from outside their area of influence; though service provision tends to be a little more fluid these days. Thus: Leicester city council can not demand that residents of Blaby pay their council tax to New Walk, nor can NCC insist that the people of Rushcliffe pay into the coffers at, erm, wherever (Clifton?). To the same end, Leicester, Nottingham and Newcastle city councils may attempt to influence the surrounding borough councils, and even to form partnerships with them for reasons of mutual interest, but they cannot, ultimately, have any real say on the policies of those councils; which are often (though not always) of an entirely different political stripe. Likewise, money spent in Clifton goes to Clifton Borough Council via the business rates and not to Nottingham. Ditto for Oadby and Leicester. By the same token people who work in the cities may not necessarily live in them. Nor is it a given that they will choose to spend their money there (as Fosse Park proves).

Therefore, it is, in my view, a waste of time to talk about Metropolitan Areas or Greater Urban Areas as if they have any real existence beyond the minds of city councillors dreaming of expansion and retail analysists studying shopping trends and catchment areas. Whilst it's true that Nottingham's location in the south of its county does make it an attractive destination for shoppers from South East Deryshire and North Leicestershire it also has to compete with Sheffield and Meadowhall for the retail £s of people in North Notts. Just as Leicester city centre competes with Nottingham city centre to attract people from North Leics and SE Derbys.

The completion of the Highcross in 2008 will make it even harder for Nottingham to attract people from Leicestershire to spend in their city, thus lowering revenues for NCC from that quarter and boosting them for LCC. Even the more modest new Eagle Centre (AKA Westfields, Derby) will have an effect on Nottingham's retail income in the long term. Even if you allow for the expansion of the Broadmarsh that's still quite a few years away. Years in which both Leicester and Derby can, and will, continue expanding their retail offers.

What NUT has to do with this, I have No idea :lol:

What the **** are you talking about lol?? I disagree with the last paragraph to an extent but Whats your point? What ultimately are you saying?

Mark76. I think you should contact Wjfoxx and rename this thread Nottingham Vs Leicester. Depending on what you say next.. I predict this thread will be the fastest growing thread in the EM Forum lol.

I updated the population figures. Seems Nottm's catching up again.

Oh look! There's Danz. Quelle Surprise

:lol:

Mark!!! Why have you done this?? I can't do this today lol.

Likewise, money spent in Clifton goes to Clifton Borough Council via the business rates and not to Nottingham.

Money spent in Clifton goes to the businesses in clifton? Taxes taken in Clifton go to Nottingham City Council? Your facts are totally wrong?

Therefore, it is, in my view, a waste of time to talk about Metropolitan Areas or Greater Urban Areas as if they have any real existence beyond the minds of city councillors dreaming of expansion and retail analysists studying shopping trends and catchment areas.

Whilst it's true that Nottingham's location in the south of its county does make it an attractive destination for shoppers from South East Deryshire and North Leicestershire it also has to compete with Sheffield and Meadowhall for the retail £s of people in North Notts. Just as Leicester city centre competes with Nottingham city centre to attract people from North Leics and SE Derbys.

I've split your paragraph into two parts above. The two parts bear no relation to each other?

The completion of the Highcross in 2008 will make it even harder for Nottingham to attract people from Leicestershire to spend in their city, thus lowering revenues for NCC from that quarter and boosting them for LCC. Even the more modest new Eagle Centre (AKA Westfields, Derby) will have an effect on Nottingham's retail income in the long term. Even if you allow for the expansion of the Broadmarsh that's still quite a few years away. Years in which both Leicester and Derby can, and will, continue expanding their retail offers.

I disagree to a great extent though I agree with some principles.

I'm saying let's stop pretending there actually is a Greater Nottingham or a Greater Leicester as political entitities. It's only in the sphere of economic activity (and especially retail) that the notion makes any sense. Greater Nottingham may well have a population of over 600K, but less than half of that contributes directly (in the form of council tax) to the city coffers. For the rest you have to rely on retail spend and for that you're going to find yourselves increasingly having to compete with other destinations. I mean, do you honestly think that once the Highcross is finished we'll just politely sit back and wait for you to build the Broadmarsh - Westfields Centre? The HCL will attract people into our city centre who might previously have chosen to go to yours. That'll attract more and better shops to open. You see, it's a dynamics thing. We were stagnant for so long, and that affected us badly.

Money spent in Clifton goes to the businesses in clifton? Taxes taken in Clifton go to Nottingham City Council? Your facts are totally wrong?
Where did I say taxes taken in Clifton go to NCC? I'm pretty sure I didn't.

^^ I don't understand what your saying? You seem to have two point.. one about Boundaries.. and one about retail? I understand the points your making about the two but I disagree with both of them. But before I explain why... what I am trying to understand is how the two come together?

Where did I say taxes taken in Clifton go to NCC? I'm pretty sure I didn't.

You didn't... You said.. Taxes taken in clifton go to Clifton Borough Council. They don't they go to Nottingham City Council.

Yeah, I kind of tacked on the retail thing to show that that's the only way either of our city councils can make money from the GUA notion.

Clifton is actually in Nottingham?

Okay.

It was just an example. I'm not that hot on the political geography of Notts

Surely the most important population figure, is that of those who contribute directly to the city coffers as this is what pays for council funded regeneration projects e.g streets and spaces. Thats why a year or so both Nottingham and Leicester City Councils wanted to eat up some of their surrounding areas. Which at the time also meant more government funding. However if both cities did this then Leicester unfortunately would probably loose. The Urban area in a way is irrelevant as if what is offered in the city centres is good enough people will travel accross the East Midlands to get to it. Its pointless arguing whether Leicester or Nottingham is bigger as the difference is negliable. Even if you did take into account the Urban areas, Nottingham may be bigger, but its still not enough to move them to a different league to Leicester.

Lets just face it both Leicester and Nottingham are two medium sized regional cities.

However, i can see this arguement going on and on. with people manipulating figures to suggest their city is bigger/ better etc.

Correctamundo!

And no amount of GUA jiggerypokery can ever change that as long as the current boundaries remain.

Incidentally, up until about 20 years ago Nottingham city's population actually was bigger than Leicester's. Then we overtook them.

Anyone know why?

To be honest i'm not sure, but with more and more apartments being built in our cities, I can only see them (both Leicester and Nottingham) getting bigger, which can only be a good thing for investment in our cities.

Yeah, I kind of tacked on the retail thing to show that that's the only way either of our city councils can make money from the GUA notion.

I know... so whatis your point? Why does that mean we should never talk about Urban Areas?

- Nottingham attracts masses of retail because we have a large urban area. Look at the retail spend charts.. they're all *roughly* proportional to city sizes

- Nottingham has a tram system which extends out into greater Nottingham. We have this tram system because of the huge size of our conurbation.

- Nottingham is home to many of the regions largest businesses. We're home to most of the regions regional businesses. One of the main reasons for this is the huge population in our conurbation

Surely the most important population figure, is that of those who contribute directly to the city coffers as this is what pays for council funded regeneration projects e.g streets and spaces. Thats why a year or so both Nottingham and Leicester City Councils wanted to eat up some of their surrounding areas. Which at the time also meant more government funding.

Nottingham has said many times we do not want to extend our boundaries. We have One Nottingham, Greater Nottingham Partnership, Greater Nottingham Business Partnership to ensure all out local authorities are working towards the same targets.

We have a great influence over the other authorities. We work together put put in places thing like the trams, the councils have an agreement that no large retail centre should be built outside of the city centres etc. I'm sure binge and furry can give you many more examples.

The Urban area in a way is irrelevant as if what is offered in the city centres is good enough people will travel accross the East Midlands to get to it. Its pointless arguing whether Leicester or Nottingham is bigger as the difference is negliable. Even if you did take into account the Urban areas, Nottingham may be bigger, but its still not enough to move them to a different league to Leicester.

I can assure you that it is only you guys from Leicester than believe Urban areas sizes are irrelevant. I have had boundary issue debates many times with people from all over the country and you guys are the only people who that I have ever spoken too are suggesting that the size of an official boundary is the true representation of a city?

Nottingham is a core city based on the size of its urban area whilst Leicester is not. Leicester misses out on many things simply due to the size of the city.

As someone has said many times... the size of London is officially 1 sqaure mile with a population of 2,000 people or so. Greater London is however 609 sq miles with a population of 12-14 million?

Lets just face it both Leicester and Nottingham are two medium sized regional cities.

If you think 150,000/200,000 is not a big difference then your entitled to your own opinion.

Oursider, you sound just like Lears. Please don't end up like him.

To be honest i'm not sure, but with more and more apartments being built in our cities, I can only see them (both Leicester and Nottingham) getting bigger, which can only be a good thing for investment in our cities.

Nottingham is the fastest growing core city. I personally believe that if the figures Mark76 quoted are correct. Than Nottingham will more than likely overtake Leicester's LA Population by the next census in 2011.

[QUOTE=danz013;16001620
I can assure you that it is only you guys from Leicester than believe Urban areas sizes are irrelevant. I have had boundary issue debates many times with people from all over the country and you guys are the only people who that I have ever spoken too are suggesting that the size of an official boundary is the true representation of a city?[/QUOTE]

I didnt mean that Urban Areas are not important in taking into account the size of the city, what i meant, was that city population size is most important when raising money for big council projects.

Yes Urban areas are important, but how accurate are they? There are as previously argued by both sides, large areas of real urban area ignored from the official statistics. Plus what about Satelite towns? they also don't take into account the fact that many urban areas may be quite close and so people use each others shopping etc, for example people from Coventry travelling to Fosse Park to shop etc.

Nottingham is the fastest growing core city. I personally believe that if the figures Mark76 quoted are correct. Than Nottingham will more than likely overtake Leicester's LA Population by the next census in 2011.

I'm not sure what you are arguing against! My point was that both the cities were expanding, I did not argue that Leicester was growing faster than Nottingham! Plus anyway, as Leicester is not a core city it is irrelevant when comparing the cities population that Nottingham is the largest growing core city, as Leicesters figures are not included. but personally i do not have the figures of population growth to hand so I do not know which one is expanding the fastest.

I didnt mean that Urban Areas are not important in taking into account the size of the city, what i meant, was that city population size is most important when raising money for big council projects.

Ok then I agree to an extent but I still think your wrong. Your very right, Notts can't raise money from those areas outside the boundary.. however.. it does raise money from businesses within the city centre, and many of those businesses are here because of the general size of the conurbation. Without being disrespectful, as I said before, the scale of projects planned in Leicester are not of the size of those here in Nottingham, we have projects like these because our conurbation can support them. Nottingham will rake in the funds from these businesses... it can only do so because they came here realising Notts as a huge population.

In addition to this. Nottingham wants to build a new train station and improve road works. It will indirectly tax every worker parking in the city centre to raise the funds to do this. Including those who live in different local authorities.

The council has stated that one of the next phases for the tram is to extend it out to EMA which is in Leicestershire. Nottingham City Council plays a big role on not just the city, boundary but also the areas around it..... and we have many ways in which we can indirectly raise funds from those who live outside the official boundary.


Yes Urban areas are important, but how accurate are they? There are as previously argued by both sides, large areas of real urban area ignored from the official statistics. Plus what about Satelite towns?

They are not accurate but are very proportionate. In the sense that the other day Lears was complaining that Leicester had many small towns outside the boundary that are not included in the stats...he believe that with these towns included Leicester's population would be not much less than Nott's. Now.. the thing is.. Lears dosn't actually realise that we can say the same thing in Nottingham, we have many large satellite towns that are very much part of Notts.. but are not included. I say again... they may not be accurate, but they are proportionate.

i cant be bothered to argue this anymore, lets change topic!

You know, we could argue that Leicester has an area of influence that covers over 900,000 people due to its central location within the coiunty and the lack of any serious competition on most sides (the north excepted ;) ). How much influence does Nottingham have in North Notts?

If our council was as dynamic and proactive as yours I very much doubt we'd be playing catch up with you today.

If our council was as dynamic and proactive as yours I very much doubt we'd be playing catch up with you today.

This is I think what the problem with Leicester is, we need a forward thinking leader, rather than the current bickering situation. That is perhaps why Leicester needs an elected mayor, which could really promote this city and put it where it belongs.

I'm going to get petty now bit... you central position dosn't mean a lot... it does you no justice.

Nottingham however is right next to Derby... Its much easier for us to attract an additional 230,000 from Derby.

Leicester will infact be affected by the close proximity of Birmigham, which will surely drag commuters away form Leicester.

Secondly.. take a look at the satellite towns that surround us. Nottinghams are larger...

Loughborough - 57,000
Mansfield - 70,000.

But anyway... this is all very petty.. but your right... you could argue you that you influence 900,000 people... a lot of other cities could do the same.

Sorry Mark there's absolutely no point in posting on this thread.

^^ I really don't know why he started it in the first place.

To be honest i'm not sure either, its always going to be a loosing battle!

Birmingham is 50 miles away, you dolt.

If Birmingham is going to have an effect on Leicester then it sure as hell is going to have one on Nottingham. And even more so on Derby.

I think you overestimate the attraction of Birimingham.

To be honest i'm not sure either, its always going to be a loosing battle!

And that is the key point to remember!! :lol: just kidding.

Birmingham is 50 miles away, you dolt.

If Birmingham is going to have an effect on Leicester then it sure as hell is going to have one on Nottingham. And even more so on Derby.

I think you overestimate the attraction of Birimingham.

I probably do. But as I said I was being petty because you were.

BTW, Mansfield's population is 100K (158 if you include that urban area you're so fond of). That's about the size of a small city. Your respective councils might have a cosy relationship now, but do you really think that's going to last? Mansfield DC needs to raise revenues just as much as Nottingham UA does. Do you really think they're going to let their retail offer stagnate for your benefit?

But you could say the same thing about Loughborough?

Anyway... Mansfield is not part of Greater Nottingham Mark76?

We don't have any special relationship. Yes.. they need to sort out their retail offer too... but they're retail is amazing at the moment. They have a massive McAutherglen.... with shops like Addidas, Reebock, Levi's,Calvin Klein Jeans, Rockport, Gap, Game, M&S, Next, Starbuck, Cadburys and much more. Far more than places like fosse park (I don't know why you guys keep going on about the place).

To be really honest... this is the most likely place to attract Notts shoppers. There are loads of shops there that aren't in Notts... (But there are even more that arent there that are in Notts) Once again your facts are all wrong.

Loughborough - 57,000


I'm just being petty, but isnt Loughborough one of Leicester's satelite towns? :bash:

I'm just being petty, but isnt Loughborough one of Leicester's satelite towns? :bash:

yeah thats what i'm saying... Our satellite towns are larger. But as originally stated.. i was too just being petty.

But you could say the same thing about Loughborough?

Anyway... Mansfield is not part of Greater Nottingham Mark76? Once again your facts are all wrong. We don't have any special relationship. Yes.. they need to sort out their retail offer too... but they're retail is amazing at the moment. They have a massive McAutherglen.... with shops like Addidas, Reebock, Levi's,Calvin Klein Jeans, Rockport, Gap, Game, M&S, Next, Starbuck, Cadburys and much more. Far more than places like fosse park (I don't know why you guys keep going on about the place).

The difference is McArthur Glen or Eastmidlands Designer outlet (or whatever they want to call it) is for I believe last seasons clothes or discount or something like that, and is well lets be honest miles away from Nottingham. Whereas Fosse Park has very similar shops to Leicester, and is very close. It also attracts lots of people from Coventry due to its location at Junction 21.

Its popularity is proven in the ridiculusly high rents it charges for an out of town shopping complex.

Loughborough is only half the size of Mansfield and actually closer to Nottingham (if I remember correctly). I don't honestly think Loughborough will ever provide much in the way of competition for any of the big three's commercial districts. Mansfield, on the other hand has the potential to draw in a lot of custom from the north of your county and parts of Derbyshire. Just as Sheffield already does.

Leicester's competition consists of:

Nottingham

Fosse Park

Erm...

Erm...

Nope, that's all I can think of.

Yay! 300th post :banana:

Loughborough is only half the size of Mansfield and actually closer to Nottingham (if I remember correctly). I don't honestly think Loughborough will ever provide much in the way of competition for any of the big three's commercial districts. Mansfield, on the other hand has the potential to draw in a lot of custom from the north of your county and parts of Derbyshire. Just as Sheffield already does.



Hehe... Mark76. Ok mate. You win. Nottinghams retail will go down the drain, we will never again be a great retail centre, we will be torn apart by the retail happening in Mansfield, Fosse Park, Leicester and Derby. thngs will never be the same.

:banana:

Lets wait and see what happens in about 5 years time once all the major developments (Westfield Derby+ Nottingham and the new amazing Highcross Development) have settled down.

Remember when I say I don't think you guys take into consideration the other things happening around the world?

Let me explain.

You guys seem to think that Nottingham is going to be effected massively by the rest of the retail developments in the region. You have to understand that whats happening in Leicester is the same as what happening nationally. Every major city has some form of retail project in construction an planned... and yes.. they will all effect the major shopping regions.... here are some examples:

- West London, and Westfield Stratford will affect the West End
- The developments in Liverpool will effect Manchester
- The retail developments in Bradford and Sheffield will effect Leeds
- The retail in Derby and Leicester will affect Nottingham.

In this example... unless Leeds, Manchester, Nottingham and the West End make some big improvements soon, they will loose their Leeds on their competing cities.

So yes, your very right, the retail in the rest of the region will effect Nottingham? In what sense though? I believe in the sense that people from Leicester and Derby will not have to travel as far to get decent retailers. Lets face it, retail in Derby and Leicester is (before their developments), is absolutely nothing compared to the stores we have here in Notts. You lack luxury names, you lack quality, and you lack a decent shopping experience (we've spoke about, and agreed upon this already in the Nottingham Leicester Floor Space Thread), and this is one of the main reason shopper leave Leicester in favour of places like Notts or Birmingham.

The problem is.. like I keep saying.... once again... Leicester is playing catchup.... For example... All the major anchors that you've signed up are already here in Nottingham and have been for years. Your aiming to attract names like John Lewis, Zara, River Island etc. These are basic shops that you need in a city centre. We've had them for years. Your simply catching up, and attempting to close the gap.

What you have to understand is this though. Your adding on 50,000 sq m feet of retail. And that is the only major retail development going off in Leicester??

Nottingham is knocking down its worst 40,000 sq m, and adding a total of 140,000 sq m (gross 100,000 addition). We're adding twice the amount of space that your adding in Leicester.

In addition to this we have two huge retail developments that are just about to complete. The Pod and Trinity Square. Now guys.. honestly... I would recommend you guys come to Notts and take a look at the size of these developments. They are huge.. i've been inside the pod whilst it was being construction and it could hold a small shopping mall, trinity square will add 3 large stores (department store sized) to the city centre along with loads of bars and restaurants. We've just created another small arcade dedicated to small luxury boutique stores. We've redone our public square providing activities and entertainment for shoppers (ice rink this Christmas), we're also upgrading some of the paving around the city, etc.

In addition to this, even with the names you adding in Leicester we still have names here that can't be found in Leicester. We're adding more and more... Vivienne Westwood are opening up shortly.

You adding what we already have, we're adding what you don't have? We're maintaining the gap.

In addition to this, you seem to forget that Birmingham also has massive projects planned, Coventry has massive projects planned. Every city in the county has retail projects planned. You guys have this opinion that your development is superior to others.. that is not the case at all.. infact you have one of the smallest additions to retail in the country:

Please bare in mind i've quoted the size of the added retail space.. not the size of the development.

Broadmarsh: 100,000 sqm
Sheffield NRQ: Over 100,000sqm
Birminghams Gallery: 80,000sqm
Broadmead Bristol: 100,000 sqm
Cardiff St Davids: 80,000 sqm
Liverpool One: 150,000 sqm
Highcross Leicester: 50,000 sqm

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=514818

I'll add this thread as a reference for outsider1. We've argued about this many times.

Lets wait and see what happens in about 5 years time once all the major developments (Westfield Derby+ Nottingham and the new amazing Highcross Development) have settled down.

Danz the reason why i said the above is because i know that other cities are building new major shopping destinations, the examples i gave where only because they were the most relevant not because they were the only ones i had heard of.

In my personal opinion I believe that once this is all over (unless another city suddenly adds something major i do not already know about) the rankings will go back to how they were before all these developments took place, including the Bullring.

I said see what happens in about five years time because, during that period levels in the cities will change drasticaly as new centres are finished with the most recent centre attracting the most people. The main problem cities will face is retaining these new levels.

Danz the reason why i said the above is because i know that other cities are building new major shopping destinations, the examples i gave where only because they were the most relevant not because they were the only ones i had heard of.

Sorry, that was direct to Mark not you.

In my personal opinion I believe that once this is all over (unless another city suddenly adds something major i do not already know about) the rankings will go back to how they were before all these developments took place, including the Bullring.

I agree entirely. I don't get your point on the bullring though? What are you saying they'll remain at 3rd place or are you saying they'll drop back down to 12th or whatever it was before they had the bullring? If the latter, than I disagree.

Danz, i didnt realise they were 12th before, i dont think they'll drop that far, but they wont have as many shoppers, as other cities will be putting up a fight. Unless magically, everywhere is a success and everyone spends loads more money!

Danz, i didnt realise they were 12th before, i dont think they'll drop that far, but they wont have as many shoppers, as other cities will be putting up a fight. Unless magically, everywhere is a success and everyone spends loads more money!

Exactly. These bigger developments has massive effects.

Bullring went from 12th to 3rd.
Westfield London is expected to jump into the top 10 upon completion
Liverpool One is expected to push liverpool from 9th to 6ths place.
Manchester went from about 7th to 4th.

Manchester however has no retail planned. Manchester will be affected massively because a lot of its shoppers come from Liverpool.. and the retail in liverpool used to be absoultely rubbush.. but they are literally creating a shopping village in Liveprool with their 150,000 Liverpool One development. That will take loads of people from Liverpool, and its surrounding areas away from Manchester. The experian forcast shows Nottingham will be literally a few million behind mancs in a few years time.

Nottingham's population is larger than Leicester's - you can tell just by looking at maps. To argue otherwise is akin to sticking one's head in the sand.

However - I do not know anyone who goes to Nottingham for shopping. Ever. From all my friends and aquaintances I know 1 person that works in Nottingham and thats because he lives on Melton Road which makes it easy for him to get there in the morning.

I know many more people that go to Birmingham for shopping, work, social outings, etc. The pull of Birmingham is a lot greater than the pull of Nottingham. However that does not mean the same people want to live in Birmingham and hence provision in Leicester is required.

I am sure many other people in Leicester will say exactly the same thing - although I am no official survey! In my lifetime I've been to Nottingham twice - once because I wanted to visit it and another for a freinds wedding. In that time i've lived in London, Manchester, Reading, Leeds, Surrey and Birmingham. For visits and outings I have been to Liverpool, Brighton, Newcastle, Derby, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Cardiff, Penzance, etc, etc. I have never needed to go to Nottingham. There is nothing there that makes an ordinary guy like me and my misses to go there. For shopping it's Leicester and if I need something more "esoteric" then its off to Birmingham - which is rare in itself. Anything even more unique and its an automatic excuse to go to London. This isn't because I have a grudge against Nottingham or don't want NCC to benefit from my presence but it just isn't on my radar - i'm a Highfields lad so it's not like getting to Nottingham is a nightmare.

Before anyone accuses me of being Billy no mates my phone currently has about 700 contacts which isn't huge but isn't tiny either.

I think certain Leicester forumers need to realise Nottingham is ahead of us for now and will remain so for a few decades to come. However certain chaps from Nottingham need to realise Nottingham is not actually that famous, nor is it that attractive to people from Leicester (not in this this "super magnetic" way it is talked about anyway!!) and that in decades to come the fortunes of our cities can and will change.

50 years ago Leicester's population was mainly White working class. Today it is almost half none-white mainly working class but with hundreds if not thousands of small businesses and a great entrepreneurial spirit (Leicester has one of the highest small business start up rates in the country). To me it sounds like either the population increased during the last half century or the White people ran off to the Home counties. I prefer the first explanation. The population of Leicester is growing too just as the population in the rest of the country is. The small businesses of today and the can-do atmosphere in the immigrant population will surely only lead to success in the decades to come. The regeneration we are beginning to witness is already responding to this. Skyscrapers do not get proposed and approved in cities that are standing still. I remember reading in the Mercury how just before the War Leicester was one of the richest provincial cities in the whole of Europe. Times change. And they will change again. Leicester is on the cusp of a boom. Everything we talk about on here will come to fruition in both Nottingham and Leicester in due course. If the councils take their presented opportunities it will happen. Nottingham began its regeneration at least a decade ago and are now beginning to see the fruits. The same will happen for us in Leicester.

In the mean time chaps from Nottingham really need to stop believing it is something special. I just came back from Cardiff today - I've been to Cardiff more often than Nottingham and I hardly know anyone there. The regeneration there is so visible it is like a whole new town has just been built with cranes dotted all over the skyline. If we think Leicester and Nottingham are changing then we are kidding ourselves. We both have a long way to go and any mud slinging at this point in time is plainly ridiculous if not not complertely misplaced!

Fosse Park is popular because of its location, catchment area and the generally decent array of stores. Discount outlets like McArthur Glen cannot be compared because in general they attract different demographics and the selection of stores are different - assuming the Mansfield one is like the one in Chesire. Fosse park stores also have huge footprints which allow them to have complete stocks rather than just the most popular - hence a very popular M&S. Fosse Park is also surrounded by other stores such as Borders, Meridien Leisure Park and the Grove (?) Park business area. In effect it is the town centre for that corner of Leicester/shire.

Also as an aside there are now retail parks dotted all along the outer ring road which is only about 3 miles away from the town centre if that. I'm not sure if that is the case in Nottingham but it shows the strength of retail provision in Leicester. For example a Next outlet can be found at Thurmaston ex-coop site, then 5-10 minutes along at Beaumont Leys shopping centre then again 10 minutes later at Fosse Park and not forgetting the one (or is it 2?) in town itself.

Office developments and hence companies will come to Leicester once the infrastructure and facilities are in place. Companies are alway moving, being created and closing. There isn't a finite supply. The small businesses growing up in Leicester will become larger as time goes on and they too will look for premises. Right now it is about harnessing that energy and nurturing it so that in a decades time the city can grow further and faster.

The future is bright for both Leicester and Nottingham. They aren'y going to become world class world famous cities any time soon. However each city's respective merits will be noticed in time and as a region that is something to be proud of.

Moseeds. Thats a long... but fair post. And I agree with a lot of it... In terms of retail, your right, I doubt we attract that many from Leicester, I would assume most would go to Birmingham if they decided to go on an outing. In terms of where our cities are at, how they are doing, I agree with all that you said.

However... I do disagree with you comments that hardly anyone comes into Nottingham for other reasons. In particular, cultural activites and Employment... A few years ago I worked at Capital One whilst I was in College... there loaddddss off guys in there from Leicester, a few I occasionally still contact.

There are however still reasons people will come to Nottingham. One of the girls I worked with at Capital One brought her entourage down here for the Amir Kahn fight. The arena, concert halls, are both things which you don't have in Leicester and if you want to see the big acts you will have to come to Notts.


Usually I will go to Nottingham for an entertainment interest such as the brilliant galleries of justice AND retail.

I have a friend who visits Nottingham for one thing only (used to be two, but Borders: Fosse Park trumps Waterstones: Nottm anyday) and that's the best damned independent record store in the East (and, arguably, West) Midlands.

I think you know where I mean ;)

BTW: We have a concert hall in Leicester. One of the best in the UK, I might add.

Just gotta get that arena :D

BTW: We have a concert hall in Leicester. One of the best in the UK, I might add.

You don't. It holds no major act from what I remember? Is it the D'monford (or however you spell it) hall your talking about? The acts there aren't half as big as the ones at the Royal Centre in Notts (without braggin)...we already had this discussion mark? Was it not with you?

I have a friend who visits Nottingham for one thing only (used to be two, but Borders: Fosse Park trumps Waterstones: Nottm anyday) and that's the best damned independent record store in the East (and, arguably, West) Midlands.

Which record store? We have a few independent ones.

Don't worry, Borders are opening shortly, their shop is being kitted out as we speak. (http://www.trinity-sq.com/_downloads/view3.jpg)

The DeMontfort is one of the three homes of the Philharmonia Orchestra.

I believe they're pretty big.

The problem with it is the council treats it like an all purpose venue rather than a dedicated concert hall. Thus lots of acts that could have appeared there probably didn't because they were having a Leicestershire and Rutland Scouting Group jamboree or an Asian fashion show on the day they wanted to book in.

And there's no frigging way a Borders in Nottingham city centre will ever be bigger than one on Fosse Park. So just forget it :tongue2:

Besides... They'll move into Leicester too eventually.

And there's no frigging way a Borders in Nottingham city centre will ever be bigger than one on Fosse Park. So just forget it :tongue2:


Gosh.. how petty do you get? I've already had the Concert Centre Debate Mark. Keep Up.

You really don't get it do you?

Why don't you come and see the frigging shoe boxes we Leicestercians call shops?

You really don't get it do you?

Why don't you come and see the frigging shoe boxes we Leicestercians call shops?

I have? Do you not remember that either? I came down and took pictures? Posted them on here? Offered my opinions?

And you agree that we've been short changed as far as store sizes go?

I mean, I'd hardly call our Virgin a "Mega" store.

Anyway, enough of this digression. Are you aware that the EMDA's Greater Nottingham Partnership doesn't include the bits of Derbyshire you're trying to annex?

I wonder how many tens of thousands that knocks off your claimed GUA population figure in the eyes of the people who matter?

Unlike Notts Leicestershire has a single body dedicated to encouraging development and cooperation. Your GNP might have a demographic of over 650,000; but our LSEP has nearly a million people in its zone of influence. Plus we're the largest city for a considerable bulk of the South East Midlands and North East Anglia.

So tell me again why you should be favoured and we should just be grateful for the crumbs that fall from your table?

Mark76, I'm not being disrecpectful but I have no choice to ignore both of the last two comments you made. Mainly because non of this is making sense, you keep switching from one point to another.

A minute ago you was talkin about how the Borders in Notts wont be as big as the one in Leicesters outskirts, and then you started talking about how Leicesters shops are too small small... and know your talking about greater nottingham parnership and asking me why Notts should be favoured and you should be greatful for our crumbs??

Not only does this not make any sense to me, its just getting absoultely ridiculous, if I don't stop now, i'll feel like a kid at the end of the day, arguing over petty this and petty that just for petty reasons?

Mammoth post moseeds.. and I do mean MAMMOTH! Jesus.. now that's dedication! :D

I don't want to get involved in this argument, or 'discussion' because it's always the same. We all go round and round arguing our own points until it eventually stops and no good was brought about at all. But what I will say is, Danz it's very obvious you're passionate about your city, and that's more than fair enough. But a lot of the time you take it to a point where you're bloody obnoxious and so annoying anyone outside of Nottingham will hate you - which isn't on is it :) However, guys, and i'm talking about guys from Leicester here.. stop provoking him.. these discussions are so pointless!

Pointless.. but I still posted.. shame on me ;)

Mammoth post moseeds.. and I do mean MAMMOTH! Jesus.. now that's dedication! :D

I don't want to get involved in this argument, or 'discussion' because it's always the same. We all go round and round arguing our own points until it eventually stops and no good was brought about at all. But what I will say is, Danz it's very obvious you're passionate about your city, and that's more than fair enough. But a lot of the time you take it to a point where you're bloody obnoxious and so annoying anyone outside of Nottingham will hate you - which isn't on is it :) However, guys, and i'm talking about guys from Leicester here.. stop provoking him.. these discussions are so pointless!

Pointless.. but I still posted.. shame on me ;)


There was a lot of pent up frustration in there...!!

I think if all Leicester forummers joined up their frustrations, then we could power a small city for almost a year! :lol:

Northampton would be in our debt

:lol: just to be abit annoying are they now a city? I though they just missed out last time?