View Full Version : Density Article From This Week's Stranger


jessejb
October 26th, 2007, 06:22 PM
It's Ugly, Stupid
Neighborhoods Want Density, but They Want It Done Right
By Jonah Spangenthal-Lee


Seattle's neighborhoods are trying to stop townhome and condo developments. But it's not because of NIMBYism. They're not fighting density, nor are they even opposed to the chaos and noise brought on by massive construction projects. No, Seattle's neighborhoods want to put a halt to ugly development. The Achilles's heel of development isn't what you might expect. It's not political opposition; it's aesthetic opposition. Development—because of straight-up butt-ugly design—has become its own worst enemy.

"Poor quality urban buildings are a big disincentive to embrace urban density," says Lisa Richmond, executive director of the Seattle chapter of the American Institute of Architects (AIA). Richmond says ugly projects create neighborhood opposition, which makes the process harder for everyone. However, Richmond says, "We are just not sure whether the market rewards developers for [better design]."

There is a solution to unsightly construction: the city's design review process.

As part of the permitting process, developers are required to hold open meetings with neighborhood groups and the city up to two years before construction begins in order to flesh out—and sometimes argue over—the design and scope of a project. Sometimes neighbors are able to make an impact on sizable projects, as seen in the Pike/Pine corridor over the last several years, but sometimes the process falls apart. Design review only occurs when projects are of a certain size in a specific zoning area, and some townhome developers have found ways to dodge the process altogether.

In the last three years, Ballard has become one of Seattle's most heavily developed neighborhoods. It's one of the city's top three neighborhoods for condo conversions—along with Capitol Hill and Queen Anne—and rows of townhomes have replaced a number of Ballard's small single-family cottages. However, the city's lax—and sometimes avoidable—design review process has left some Ballard residents resentful of cheaply built, badly designed architectural eyesores. "We all know we have to accept more density," says Beth Miller, executive director of the Ballard Chamber of Commerce and a longtime Ballard resident. "But in 10 years, are those [new developments] going to really hold up? Are they going to be something you want to look at?" Miller points to a development near the neighborhood's center with garish paint schemes and uninviting concrete exteriors, and cookie-cutter townhome developments, which stand out from Ballard's hundred-year-old craftsman homes as the problem. "It's not that [developers] are building something that isn't allowed within the zoning," Miller says, "but maybe it could have been finessed into the neighborhood a bit more."

Over in Queen Anne, the community council—working on design guidelines for the neighborhood—declined to address residential design rules because they didn't want to get bogged down by the intricacies of the process. "The Queen Anne Community Council skirts the residential issue continually," says Jessica Vets, a member of the Queen Anne Community Council's Land Use Review Committee. "[But we] decided to stay away from residential [guidelines]."

While Seattle does have more stringent requirements for construction than other cities, Seattle's lack of quality control only gives NIMBYs more ammo against development.

Some developers, like Dunn & Hobbes and Pryde & Johnson, have worked to build projects which mesh with the neighborhoods they're in—building aesthetically pleasing, "sustainable" projects—but other developers are quick to throw up dozens of townhomes as quickly and cheaply as possible.

"It begins to destroy the character and uniqueness of neighborhoods," says city councilmember Tom Rasmussen, who's been a staunch supporter of density, voting for an increase in height limits downtown and on Capitol Hill. However, Rasmussen is also quick to criticize the wrong kind of development.

"What I see happening is we're losing landscaped yards and planting strips; we're having fences or concrete walls built right up to the sidewalk. [It's] sterile and bleak." Rasmussen points to a string of boxy, cheap-looking townhome developments along North 85th Street near the Aurora corridor as an example of development gone wild. Rasmussen says he's continually been told that good design isn't cost-effective. "Does good design always cost more money?" Rasmussen asks. "Can't we be more thoughtful and careful [in the design process]?" Rasmussen says he'd be willing to take a look at revising the city's land-use code in order to put tighter regulations on development.




discuss.

BoulderGrad
October 26th, 2007, 06:37 PM
I bring up the "Sisly Block" development in Roosevelt again. A developer is planning to propose a 10 (or more) story building in the middle of a bunch of 2 and 3 story buildings and single family homes. This is pissing the neighborhood off a lot... I can't say I blame them. There is plenty of developable land still left in Roosevelt for densification, especially right around the proposed light rail stop location. Cramming a sore thumb like that in the middle of an increasingly nice neighborhood is exactly what even pro-density people are trying to avoid. Density is only a good thing when the dense spaces they create are still nice enough so as to be desirable to live in.

mhays
October 26th, 2007, 06:58 PM
They didn't mention a very interesting angle: What AIA would call good looking and what the public would call good looking are often very, very different. I don't know much about our DR process, but often it pushes projects toward the AIA direction and away from what the rest of us like. That's why we have parking podiums that looks like separate buildings from the towers above for example. And they don't seem to mind giant blank CMU walls.

mhays
October 26th, 2007, 07:05 PM
More on that... Architects often dislike traditional-looking architecture unless it's actually old. The general public more often prefers traditional looking architecture even if new.

Either way, it's got to be done well, and with decent materials. I'm just talking about aesthetic styles.

Of course, if you mandate good materials, you raise cost. Not a good move in a city that's already expensive.

Fundamentally these townhouse developments are doing a a proper job in most cases. Some are cheesy looking but not the majority. They use older styles because people like them, meaning they sell, and because modern styles probably get more protest (and for good reason -- some are hideous!). Many use cheap or mid-grade materials because that's how they keep prices reasonable.

bgwah
October 26th, 2007, 07:23 PM
For townhouses, I like the new development in Downtown Bellevue. I would have to agree that a lot of townhouse developments are kind of ugly, though.

jessejb
October 26th, 2007, 07:31 PM
I really hope those ridiculous false-balcony things fell out of favor with builders.

mhays
October 26th, 2007, 08:45 PM
The Bellevue ones look nice. And their cost reflects it.

blackc5
October 26th, 2007, 11:39 PM
They didn't mention a very interesting angle: What AIA would call good looking and what the public would call good looking are often very, very different.

Good point. There is a reason the Camry is the top-selling car in America. It is boring, and an eyesore by almost any measure, yet people buy it up.

And although I generally agree with the Stranger here, this does seem counter to their usual rants about the need for more affordable housing. All these nifty design features they want add cost. Many people dont want to pay for design - they just want a place they can live and afford. I am sure there are creative ways to improve design while keeping costs down, but the Stranger should be careful about what it wishes for I think...

CrazyAboutCities
October 27th, 2007, 01:23 AM
I like townhouses but I hope to see brownstone style townhouses to come along just outside of downtown Seattle area. I really like the ones that are under construction in Bend, Oregon. Check their development out, http://www.millqtr.com/.

People have different tastes in architectures. Some dense developments that some people would consider "cheap" that I think its nice looking buildings just for now. Some buildings like Parc or Gallery that I am not really fond of but they are adding the density to downtown Seattle/Belltown neighborhood. I personally know someone that thinks Mosler Loft is ugly condo tower but I think it is one of most beautiful condo towers in downtown Seattle area.

jessejb
October 27th, 2007, 01:30 AM
That Mill Quarter development is awesome. Nice find.

CrazyAboutCities
October 27th, 2007, 01:32 AM
That Mill Quarter development is awesome. Nice find.

Thanks. :)

citruspastels
October 27th, 2007, 05:09 AM
I like townhouses but I hope to see brownstone style townhouses to come along just outside of downtown Seattle area. I really like the ones that are under construction in Bend, Oregon. Check their development out, http://www.millqtr.com/.


very pearl district-y

CrazyAboutCities
October 27th, 2007, 05:11 AM
very pearl district-y

Is it bad thing? :tongue3:

WESTSEATTLEGUY
October 27th, 2007, 05:36 AM
No, its a great thing!

PDXPaul
October 27th, 2007, 05:36 AM
Good point. There is a reason the Camry is the top-selling car in America. It is boring, and an eyesore by almost any measure, yet people buy it up.

And although I generally agree with the Stranger here, this does seem counter to their usual rants about the need for more affordable housing. All these nifty design features they want add cost. Many people dont want to pay for design - they just want a place they can live and afford. I am sure there are creative ways to improve design while keeping costs down, but the Stranger should be careful about what it wishes for I think...

Is there a better looking car in the camry's price range?

XiaoBai
October 27th, 2007, 07:04 AM
Good point. There is a reason the Camry is the top-selling car in America. It is boring, and an eyesore by almost any measure, yet people buy it up.


...and the reason why budweiser and coors lite are the top-selling beers. It's downright stupefying how tasteless we are as a collective, sometimes.

Seattle's design review board really needs to be replaced by people who can grasp the meaning of "taste." It is high-time that we get rid of these doofuses who repeatedly reject innovative designs for dull, uninspiring, tasteless tripe.

citruspastels
October 27th, 2007, 08:00 AM
Is it bad thing? :tongue3:

of course not! :tongue2:

citruspastels
October 27th, 2007, 08:01 AM
...and the reason why budweiser and coors lite are the top-selling beers. It's downright stupefying how tasteless we are as a collective, sometimes.

Seattle's design review board really needs to be replaced by people who can grasp the meaning of "taste." It is high-time that we get rid of these doofuses who repeatedly reject innovative designs for dull, uninspiring, tasteless tripe.

god i agree! we can't sit here and say these air conods are good for seattle.

they are almost always ugly and are ruining the character and individuality of our neighborhoods. STOP THEM NOW!

i don't mind townhomes/brownstones/rowhomes/whatever. it's just that they ALL LOOK THE SAME no matter which neighborhood they are in. BOOOOOOO!

economics is no excuse for horrible taste.

Capitol Hill
October 27th, 2007, 07:10 PM
I agree about rowhouses/brownstones. In neighborhoods like Capitol Hill/Queen Anne, that would be perfect. Instead of all of the units having their own garage, have on large subterranean garage for the units, and have them be row houses, with small yards out back. I think something like that would be great. In the Greenlake neighborhood, they've built the Ashworth Cottages (On Ashworth, naturally) which has some good denisity with single family residences. Granted, its a large piece of land, but I find that the density is done well.

On Capitol Hill, directly across the street from Cal Anderson Park is a townhome development. I'll reserve judgement until the project is done, but I think that its going to be quite nice, modern, but still quality.

But that project in Bend? That's a home run, something like that would do very well in most of our urban neighborhoods.

CrazyAboutCities
October 27th, 2007, 08:18 PM
I agree about rowhouses/brownstones. In neighborhoods like Capitol Hill/Queen Anne, that would be perfect. Instead of all of the units having their own garage, have on large subterranean garage for the units, and have them be row houses, with small yards out back. I think something like that would be great. In the Greenlake neighborhood, they've built the Ashworth Cottages (On Ashworth, naturally) which has some good denisity with single family residences. Granted, its a large piece of land, but I find that the density is done well.

On Capitol Hill, directly across the street from Cal Anderson Park is a townhome development. I'll reserve judgement until the project is done, but I think that its going to be quite nice, modern, but still quality.

But that project in Bend? That's a home run, something like that would do very well in most of our urban neighborhoods.

I agree. We should have high diversity of style of brownstones not just all looking same as most of developments across the nation.

About Bend... Bend is getting bigger city so they decided to go urban earlier even its only just over 80,000 people living there. I think that is smart movement for smaller city to go that stage. I think that type of development would do very well for most US cities like Seattle and Bellevue too.

CrazyAboutCities
October 27th, 2007, 08:19 PM
of course not! :tongue2:

:lol::lol::lol:

taiwanesedrummer36
October 29th, 2007, 04:43 AM
I totally agree. If you have ever noticed the "air-condos" in Snohomish County, you know what i'm talking about. They're ugly, they're small (for a single-family style house), and overall they're unappealing. If you're going to build density, at least build a condo or aparment complex with parks around it and don't color it like a rainbow (reference to the air-condo community north of 164th Street on I-5).

pwright1
October 29th, 2007, 09:07 AM
I brought this up before. Seattle's new townhomes popping all over the place are down right ugly. Just plain hideous and so cheap looking. There's so many of them and they ARE changing the character of some of our neighborhoods.

PDXPaul
October 29th, 2007, 07:46 PM
I must be weird, I kind of like them. I mean yeah, they aren't brick rowhouses but bricks are expensive!

SteveM
October 29th, 2007, 07:50 PM
I brought this up before. Seattle's new townhomes popping all over the place are down right ugly. Just plain hideous and so cheap looking. There's so many of them and they ARE changing the character of some of our neighborhoods.

The city is looking to rework the details of the zoning code to de-uglify the prevailing styles. I believe someone on this forum recently attended a public meeting and sent out some info. Seattle's DPD site should have the details, at any rate.

Personally, I'd argue that townhouses are vital to the city's ability to keep young families, and I'd rather see them ugly (and eventually hidden by trees) than not at all. But I may be in the minority on that; it seems that most homeowners are primarily interested in what keeps up their property values, and cheap and ugly townhouses nearby probably don't help.

BoulderGrad
October 29th, 2007, 09:01 PM
^^ I don't even find them all that ugly. A little bland yes, but still a vast improvement over some of the 60's and 70's rambler POS's they replace. Of course nothing beats the old 1920's and 30's, etc. craftsman style houses dotted through the neighborhoods of this city, and hopefully we can hold on to those as long as we can.

taiwanesedrummer36
October 30th, 2007, 12:17 AM
I brought this up before. Seattle's new townhomes popping all over the place are down right ugly. Just plain hideous and so cheap looking. There's so many of them and they ARE changing the character of some of our neighborhoods.

Maybe it's because the driveways are incredibly small. Otherwise, I kind of like the house designs in the Green Lake neighborhood, though I wish they where row houses.

mhays
October 30th, 2007, 12:28 AM
Driveways are the biggest problem. They cover everything that's not a house with pavement. I like the ones that simply have an underground garage without driveways at ground level. Unfortunately I think that moves them to "multifamily" code, which is more expensive.

pwright1
October 30th, 2007, 09:07 AM
You really think these are attractive? And most starting out in the mid 400's is not exactly cheap. Its really something when I can walk around Chicago, San Francisco, Boston or even Buffalo and see beautiful residential architecture. Here we have some, but these new townhouse developments are just taking over Seattle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle3/6249Small.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle3/6094Small.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle3/6113Small.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle3/6168Small.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle4/10156Medium.jpg

BoulderGrad
October 30th, 2007, 09:36 AM
You really think these are attractive?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle3/6249Small.jpg

No



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle3/6094Small.jpg

Meh, Bland



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle3/6113Small.jpg

Not bad


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle3/6168Small.jpg

Nice


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle4/10156Medium.jpg

Same group of houses as the first, so no





I never said they were my idea of attractive, or my ideal for densifying the outlying areas of the city. Of course I'd rather see this lining the streets of Seattle:

(Thanks to Ron Saari's webpage, first to come up on google under "row houses")
http://www.ronsaari.com/stockImages/philadelphia/clintonStreetRowhouses.jpg


over one of these:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/pwright1/seattle2/seattle3/6168Small.jpg


But those ^^ really aren't that bad, and I'll take anything to densify from this:

http://theprosadvantage.com/client_content/listings/images/5435-1.jpg

mhays
October 30th, 2007, 05:57 PM
I agree completely. One is ugly, one is bland, and the other two look good aside from the overly-high fences.

More seem to look like the nicer ones.