....This is what the city would look like....


This is INCREDIBLE!


This is the city of Serres, in the province of Makedonia in Northern Greece. It has the same style of cluttered polikatikies as Athens and just as dense BUT the vast majority of them have red-shingled roofs! WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!! And if you note, there are very few of those ugly tv antennas, unlike Athens!

It is obvious that the planners and city council of Serres ARE DOING THEIR JOBS RIGHT!

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6289/serres5ho6.jpg


http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5539/serres4wk2.jpg


http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7060/serres3zu6.jpg


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2307/serres2vr0.jpg


http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4622/serresfw2.jpg


http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4783/serres24lb2.jpg


http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7943/serres23qa6.jpg


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9239/serres22iz2.jpg


http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6828/serres21jy2.jpg


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4131/serres20zq4.jpg


http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3307/serres19sv6.jpg


http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3180/serres18ns0.jpg


http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2717/serres17ih6.jpg


http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9402/serres16cm2.jpg


http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8202/serres15ed3.jpg


http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1494/serres14mi3.jpg


http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2268/serres13pk8.jpg


http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7286/serres12gu1.jpg


http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6769/serres11wh1.jpg


http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/575/serres10jc2.jpg


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9959/serres9mt3.jpg


http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4943/serres8hl4.jpg


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9003/serres7bn0.jpg


http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8074/serres6pc8.jpg


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6864/serres25ym3.jpg

nice pics, from what i see there's a lot of construction going on, and yea i agree the city looks much better than athens in my opinion...my friend from Thessaloníki goes to both places in the summer and he likes Thessaloníki much more..actually hates going to athens

thing that this city doesn't have nearby though is water by looking at the pics...the beach adds a lot to a city's charm

Roofs can certainly add some beauty in areal pictures of a city, but its not just that.Seres weren't obviously build in a few years, nor did the city accepted as many people as Athens did, the city seems to have a plan i may say, which is being build according to, and of course the density is not comparable at all, the city has the size of one of Athens suburbs.

Of course there are some cities with size almost the same as this one, that are more dense and didn't followed a plan, thus looking more like Athens.

^^ File I know that the size does not compare with Athens but teh white buildings and polikatikies do. Other large mediterannean cities in Europe that are as large as athens have buildings that are either covered with gardens or with red shingles. These cities can be found in Croatia, the south of France, southern Italy, and Spain.

I simply used Serres as a "sample" of what athens could have looked like if more care had gone into designing better roofs on the polikatikies. In other words, take Serres and multiply by 1,000 and that is what I am trying to portray as an image for Athens. That being said, the red shingled roofs are now being built on the roofs of homes and polikatikies found in the suburbs of Athens, and it looks great!

Cheers!

Nice to see medieval Serbian Empire capital. Looks nice really, bigger than what I imagined it would be

The red shingled roofs make the city look "more European".

Truly a model city. This is a good example of how modern architecture can be....well....ATTRACTIVE!! Unlike Athens, the city blocks are well-organized (the buildings complement other buildings on the same block...just like other European cities). The city is well-planned, not too spread out, but just enough open spaces....very nice. Now, imagine that city with some tram lines!!!!

I've noticed that this is actually quite common in northern Greece. My guess is because these cities grew at a slower, more orderly pace than Athens, and because the rest of the country developed (economically) at a later (and better) time than Athens. Look at Thessaloniki, and how superior it is to Athens.

^^ File I know that the size does not compare with Athens but teh white buildings and polikatikies do. Other large mediterannean cities in Europe that are as large as athens have buildings that are either covered with gardens or with red shingles. These cities can be found in Croatia, the south of France, southern Italy, and Spain.


Thats not entirely true.
I have never seen polikatikies in these other cities in the same style of Athens with just an added red roof.
Even the facades of the buildings in the other countries is different. Maybe I am wrong but if so, can you show me an example of two similar polikatikies in Mediterranean countries?

Personally, I think Athens looks good from the air as long as the buildings are not dilapidated and there are not a load of antennas. Serres looks like a Turkish city to me with its red shingle roofs and a lot of the apartment buildings in Turkey are worse than the polikatikies of Athens.

There is an alternative. Painting the roofs (dapeda taratswn) terracota colour. I;ve seen it in Spain and elsewhere. Unlike tiled roofs, this does not affect the architecture of the building and can only be seen from the air. I have a relevant thread, have alook at the pics there.

Thats not entirely true.
I have never seen polikatikies in these other cities in the same style of Athens with just an added red roof.
Even the facades of the buildings in the other countries is different. Maybe I am wrong but if so, can you show me an example of two similar polikatikies in Mediterranean countries?

Personally, I think Athens looks good from the air as long as the buildings are not dilapidated and there are not a load of antennas. Serres looks like a Turkish city to me with its red shingle roofs and a lot of the apartment buildings in Turkey are worse than the polikatikies of Athens.

they look pretty similar in other southern, and even eastern, european countries IMO. i didn't notice a major different; minor yes, but it's the same type of shit, and they don't look too crash hot in any of those countries

must disagree with you about Athens from air; it looks like a dirty white lego collection. terrible look.


AAL: what do you mean by 'affecting the architecture', in relation to tiled roofs?

must disagree with you about Athens from air; it looks like a dirty white lego collection. terrible look.pinoslios you have always something negative to say about Greece, I don't know where all of your negativism descends from however I can't help but observe that you bother way too much for something you don't like. And BTW needless to say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5606/athens5tk2.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4382/athens3dd6.jpg

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1078/athens6pw7.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f398/paralogos/falr.jpg

To me Athens doesn't look all that terrible from the air.

^^ Excellent pictures.

I don't get this whole thing with the red roofs.

Why? So, that the kotsyfia and the satellites can watch them?
How about making beautiful facades in the basement. OMG, what the worms are gonna say?

Actually, this is one time I agree with LeafsFanatic. It does look much more cutured with the tiled roofs. But folks are not going to spend a lot of money on that, unfortunately. Greeks are more interested in veranda's and marble facades than tile roofs.

they look pretty similar in other southern, and even eastern, european countries IMO. i didn't notice a major different; minor yes, but it's the same type of shit, and they don't look too crash hot in any of those countries

must disagree with you about Athens from air; it looks like a dirty white lego collection. terrible look.


AAL: what do you mean by 'affecting the architecture', in relation to tiled roofs?
I mean, you cannnot "cut and paste" architectural elements. Most modern buildings were not meant to have tiled roofs and would aquire a "transvestite" look if they were added afterwards.
I think the point of red roofs is to make modern buildings in the historic centre merge well (from the air) with other buildings. Of course it has no point in other areas.

^^ Excellent pictures.

I don't get this whole thing with the red roofs.

Why? So, that the kotsyfia and the satellites can watch them?
How about making beautiful facades in the basement. OMG, what the worms are gonna say?
Come on now, it's not for birds and satellites. For cities like Athens with many different elevation points, the way the roofs look is essential for the aestetics of the city. It is irrelevant for flatter cities like London, for instance.
The point of red roofs is to make modern buildings in the historic centre merge well (from the air) with other buildings. Of course it has no point in other areas.

pinoslios you have always something negative to say about Greece, I don't know where all of your negativism descends from however I can't help but observe that you bother way too much for something you don't like. And BTW needless to say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5606/athens5tk2.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4382/athens3dd6.jpg

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1078/athens6pw7.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f398/paralogos/falr.jpg

To me Athens doesn't look all that terrible from the air.
I agree. If you ask me, it looks spectacular from the air. I'd just prefer to have terracota roofs in the centre, so that the new buildings merge well with the old ones.

Come on now, it's not for birds and satellites. For cities like Athens with many different elevation points, the way the roofs look is essential for the aestetics of the city. It is irrelevant for flatter cities like London, for instance.
The point of red roofs is to make modern buildings in the historic centre merge well (from the air) with other buildings. Of course it has no point in other areas.

It might be so, but from an aesthetics and architecture point of view (not to mention politic as well), I find it disgusting to set unifying criteria and norms. Now, you are gonna tell me: Big deal, the "polykatoikies" are already ugly. Granted, so what are we talking about? Are we gonna say to the people built red roofs?

And as some forumers mentioned, among them me, I like Athens like it is. Athens doesn't need this kind of roofs. It doesn't provide any extra functionality of big importance. Thus it is fake and done for false impressions rather than actual needs.

I prefer modern polykatoikies without red shingled roofs. This is a backwards mentality. It cannot cope with a modern city. It is an element, very traditional that was used in villages and small cities for real reasons and not for beautification. It has no place in a cosmopolitan city like Athens, first for functional reasons and second for aesthetics.

Even the very elegant neoclassic buildings would always avoid the use of red roofs. Like we are in a stani.


Put red roofs on those:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MetroGardian/ktizon/rctech/RCT_2_LARGE.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MetroGardian/ktizon/office%20building%20aesopos/Office2001.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MetroGardian/ktizon/kaningos/01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MetroGardian/ktizon/sato/172.jpg


http://bp3.blogger.com/_Uj8skPrb1tg/RavXHFiioYI/AAAAAAAAADw/trs3a7cq_Jg/s1600/kif6.JPG

^^ well my friend most of them are not polykatoikies...and excuse me but do you prefer,those fugly antennas and all the crap instead of beautifully organised red roofs?,i mean all that cement in Athens,especially in the center really makes me sick sometimes...i mean i wouldn't prefer red roofs in that kind of apartments:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/440075819_5d40521e9d.jpg?v=0

obviously but what about this one?:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2034/1536224348_0ee99b04b5.jpg?v=0

well what the heck non village mentality is this???-i call this chaos-hell on earth-sometimes it makes my eyes sour -taratses are alright sometimes-but not everywhere-we are talking almost about the whole central Athens...let's put some color in our life not just grey and the green of the (pa)tentes .Just look in the thread about the old photos of Athens...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/217/470226064_b910d78eca.jpg?v=0

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1261/1404323824_030dda53dd.jpg?v=0

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1141/1255975372_09bfc798e7.jpg?v=0

http://www.trikalacity.gr/uploads/photos/546.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/379641438_364242314b.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/201/518428533_315b3e2711.jpg?v=0

looking at the last photo i believe the red roofs fit the environment much better than the white chaos.

i personally would like people to stop building white houses in greek citys too since they get grey after some years or very dirty and it really looks third world

whoever said Greeks prefer verandas is spot on. they need to change the blinds though. most of them look nasty.

ALEMO: you are right to say that i'm negative, but since most of the threads i make regular contributions to deal with the economy and general aesthetics of the capital city, they aren't topics i feel too positively about, so i'm not going to lie. however, if you were to start a thread on the food or nightlife of Athens, for example, or the social life in general, then my attitude would be entirely different. get it? good! ;-)

whoever said Greeks prefer verandas is spot on. they need to change the blinds though. most of them look nasty.


Newer apartment buildings tend to have nicer looking blinds (I'm assuming you are takling about the patzouria right? It's some of the older buildings that have the uglier looking ones imo.

SouthernEuropean, my friend, I also want a solution. But not a red-roof for cod's shake.

I certainly prefer, roof gardens, wooden terraces, roof pools or even glass roofs.

http://www.lordhowe.com/library/Gowers%20Terrace%20web.jpg

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Study/GreenRoof/Images/green_roof_flickr.jpg

http://miami.condocompany.com/Miami/500-Brickell/images/500-brickell-pool-roof.jpg

http://www.marston-and-langinger.com/i/im//lantern%20roofs/MARSTON2.JPG


There is a whole world on top of the city, that nobody takes advantage of. Let's make roofs a vibrant place not a dead one.


http://www.mylandscapes.co.uk/img/roof_gardens_image01.jpg



http://www.mylandscapes.co.uk/img/fj_image03.jpg


http://www.mylandscapes.co.uk/img/ct_image_02.jpg

It is only the stars that we should look at, during the night, in the breeze of the air, on top of the city and not under.

http://www.lordhowe.com/library/Gowers%20Terrace%20web.jpg-beautiful
....well actually now it's too late in some polykatoikies to apply red tiles...etc..however a good idea is the roof gardens as you said-or the terracotta colors people say-however one thing's for sure..we really have to change the image of our current-boring-environmentally unfriendly taratses...

Newer apartment buildings tend to have nicer looking blinds (I'm assuming you are takling about the patzouria right? It's some of the older buildings that have the uglier looking ones imo.

most of the older apartment buildings have ugly ones IMO. But yeah, the newer ones are different, i agree.

as for the guy who mentioned roof-top gardens; as long as Athens keeps continuing to build concrete structures, it is not sustainable. i read an article about how some buildings/hotels etc have tried the water garden idea, and there is a problem with drainage. the last thing you want is leaking with bloody concrete, i can assure you.

SouthernEuropean, my friend, I also want a solution. But not a red-roof for cod's shake.

I certainly prefer, roof gardens, wooden terraces, roof pools or even glass roofs.

http://www.lordhowe.com/library/Gowers%20Terrace%20web.jpg

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Study/GreenRoof/Images/green_roof_flickr.jpg

http://miami.condocompany.com/Miami/500-Brickell/images/500-brickell-pool-roof.jpg

http://www.marston-and-langinger.com/i/im//lantern%20roofs/MARSTON2.JPG


There is a whole world on top of the city, that nobody takes advantage of. Let's make roofs a vibrant place not a dead one.


http://www.mylandscapes.co.uk/img/roof_gardens_image01.jpg



http://www.mylandscapes.co.uk/img/fj_image03.jpg


http://www.mylandscapes.co.uk/img/ct_image_02.jpg

It is only the stars that we should look at, during the night, in the breeze of the air, on top of the city and not under.
I agree 100%. Le Corbusier had said long ago that we should give back the space that we take, ie have plants on the roof as we have excluded them for the plot of land we build on. But these things are not mutually exclusive. The floor of these roof gardens could be of terracota colour... Check out the photos here http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=524193

METROGARDIAN, I don't get all of this paragraph: "It might be so, but from an aesthetics and architecture point of view (not to mention politic as well), I find it disgusting to set unifying criteria and norms. Now, you are gonna tell me: Big deal, the "polykatoikies" are already ugly. Granted, so what are we talking about? Are we gonna say to the people built red roofs?"

Let's take it from the bottom upwards: I support colouring the actual surface of the roof (totally invisible unless you are in a high elevation point) and not building anything. So the pictures you are posting are not related to my point - these buildings could have green or blue roofs for all we can tell . I agree tiled roofs on modern buildings look usually silly and contrived.

Secons, polykatoikies in the centre are not usually ugly. Many of them were built betwenn 1930-1960 and look fine to me. The REALLY ugly ones are from the late 60s-70s and usually are not in the centre (Kolonaki has fine '70s buildings) but in areas like Goudi, Zografou, Polygono etc .

Third (and most baffling) why do we have to mix politics with everything in this country?
And, also, if what you are saying is true, you must find the historic centres of almost all European capitals, (Athens and Berlin among the few exceptions) really disgusting...can you really mean that? Would you like to have glass buildings in Piazza Navona? Taking measures to respect the historic character of an area is simply called respect. The opposite is called lack of respect - which is really disgusting. That's all there is to it.

We should focus our efforts for a new meaningful architecture in new areas, abolishing height limitations and in imposing tougher coverage limitations instead.

As for the centre, have a look at the pics in this link, are these builsings looking so bad? Would you prefer them grey-looking? http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=524193

is it Serres in this picture?really?

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9239/serres22iz2.jpg



OMG..Has it become so huge?

I agree with the original post; red shingled roofs look really nice. I have noticed that in the suburb of Stavros (Aghias Paraskevis) most of the new apartments have those roofs and you can tell the difference when you are in Attiki odos. (specifically from the Imittos Western Peripheral Motorway)

METROGARDIAN, I don't get all of this paragraph: "It might be so, but from an aesthetics and architecture point of view (not to mention politic as well), I find it disgusting to set unifying criteria and norms. Now, you are gonna tell me: Big deal, the "polykatoikies" are already ugly. Granted, so what are we talking about? Are we gonna say to the people built red roofs?"

1. Let's take it from the bottom upwards: I support colouring the actual surface of the roof (totally invisible unless you are in a high elevation point) and not building anything. So the pictures you are posting are not related to my point - these buildings could have green or blue roofs for all we can tell . I agree tiled roofs on modern buildings look usually silly and contrived.

2. Secons, polykatoikies in the centre are not usually ugly. Many of them were built betwenn 1930-1960 and look fine to me. The REALLY ugly ones are from the late 60s-70s and usually are not in the centre (Kolonaki has fine '70s buildings) but in areas like Goudi, Zografou, Polygono etc .

3.Third (and most baffling) why do we have to mix politics with everything in this country?
3.2.And, also, if what you are saying is true, you must find the historic centres of almost all European capitals, (Athens and Berlin among the few exceptions) really disgusting...can you really mean that? Would you like to have glass buildings in Piazza Navona? Taking measures to respect the historic character of an area is simply called respect. The opposite is called lack of respect - which is really disgusting. That's all there is to it.

4.We should focus our efforts for a new meaningful architecture in new areas, abolishing height limitations and in imposing tougher coverage limitations instead.



Hello AAL, I wasn't referring to you, or anyone in particular. I was expressing my ideas, as always.


Let me answer to your points:

1st. I am trying to say that we should suggest solutions rather than impose them when it comes to private property and aesthetics. That is because of the fundamental role of the first right in modern civic societies and the subjectiveness of the second. I hate aesthetic laws, except when they exist for the preservation of a specific part of our history and architecture. Thus, I wouldn't welcome any laws on how to build the modern houses or how to renovate them.

2nd. I agree.

3d. When you are talking "measures" as you say, it is politics. What is the baffling point? If it was mere architectural suggestions, I wouldn't mingle them. But when we are suggesting laws and prohibition, how do you call it.

3d.2. Don't downplay me with hideous arguments. What does the historical center have to do with this? I thought we were talking about polykatoikies. I adore the historical centers of Europe and the heritage of Athens in this field.


4th. I fully agree.

Yes, in most points we actually agree. But I don't agree with this:

"3d.2. Don't downplay me with hideous arguments. What does the historical center have to do with this? I thought we were talking about polykatoikies. "

It has everything to do with the historical centre. As far as I am concerned, terracota roofs only have a place as a measure to make modern buildings (polykatoikies or whatever they might be) fit in the historical centre. These ARE unifying criteria and norms, and I find them totally acceptable, since their purpose is to protect the historical character of an area, at least as viewed from above...if that's a political decision, so be it. It's time our politicians learn that real decisions have to be made, and not just try to get as many votes as possible. At the end of the day, if the municipal authorities include an extra coat of insulating paint on the roof in the "prosopsi" program, the budget difference will be minimal and the result will be not only visually pleasing (if the paint is terracota) but also functional, as an insulant paint keeps the moisture away...or even the heat, if you use a more specialized coating.

Again, I agree, no such laws should exist outside the historical centre.

Talk, talk talk, that's all that seems to happen...Everyone knows what needs to be done to improve the look from above, but will it happen?

Talk, talk talk, that's all that seems to happen...Everyone knows what needs to be done to improve the look from above, but will it happen?
Well, if each of us does something, then something will happen! If you look at my thread, you'll see I've done it in my building! And it's a big (42 apartments) one, but most people just don't care...so when we were rennovating the whole thing, I asked the "diaxeiristh" and a couple of other people if they objected, and when they agreed I just told the contractor to add colour to the elastomeric insulant they used for the roof. I live on the top floor, so I figure I had an extra say on the matter, anyway...next I plan to put some plants and connect them to my watering system - if others don't pay for the water, I cannot see how they can object to it...

Nice to see medieval Serbian Empire capital. Looks nice really, bigger than what I imagined it would be

Didn't got that! Was Serres was the medieval capital of Serbia? :S I thought it was a town in Kosovo (can't recall the name, sorry!)

^^
Yes that is correct, Serres was the capital during the rule of dusan, the Byzantines lost the city for 26 years(from 1345 to 1371)and again the city was conquered by the ottomans in 1383.Finally Bulgarians captured the city in 1913(second Balkan wars) but the Greek army ousted them away the same year, unfortunately the city was entirely burned by the Bulgarians forces.

AAL: 42 apartment buliding complex? surely that's not too common in Athens?

as for hte comments about the apartment buildings, there are plenty of ugly ones in the so called 'good' suburbs too. i don't think they are limited at all to the kind of suburbs you mentioned; although i agree the ones built before the 60's are better looking. the problem is that a lot of them were built in the 60' and 70's and took over(blighted) the landscape.

AAL: 42 apartment buliding complex? surely that's not too common in Athens?

as for hte comments about the apartment buildings, there are plenty of ugly ones in the so called 'good' suburbs too. i don't think they are limited at all to the kind of suburbs you mentioned; although i agree the ones built before the 60's are better looking. the problem is that a lot of them were built in the 60' and 70's and took over(blighted) the landscape.
Yes, I just gave an example, there are many other areas with ugly buildings! In fact you can find them in most areas, it's just their percentage that changes!

True, this size is not common for most areas. The building is near Fokionos Negri, built by the architect Vassilios Nikolaides in the late '50s. Kypseli is one of the few areas with a real urban development in the inter-war and post-war period (the most notable other one being Kolonaki). It has usually bigger and better made buildings than areas developed in the '60s or '70s.

But anyway, a good-looking roof is a good thing, regardless of the size of the building!

This thread makes me want to buy an apartment in Athens.
Its really about location and not about how the building looks...id take any apartment in Athens to be honest.
How much do the prices range between the areas?

if you speak Greek check this site:

http://www.homeads.gr/wma/homeads.main

the goverment should stop allow buildings like those in athens. they must build buildings with glass....not skyscapers, 15 flrs...if 100 of them would build in athens then the image of athens will definetly change

Athens needs skyscrapers, period. And 15 floors is too short, it would not do enough to relieve congestion of the city.
It is geographically situated such that it only makes sense to build upwards. The traffic, pollution, and inconvenience of continuing to sprawl outward is an environmental and economic disaster. There is no other intelligent choice, as urban places around the world in similar circumstances have already realized.
A combination of the following are the only logical choices for Athens in the 21st century: continuing to develop convenient mass transit, building towers in selected zones to absorb the need for more office and residential space, and the creation of a green zone, similar to London, surrounding Athens where urban sprawl is controlled and the natural environment is protected.
Building skyscrapers in Athens is no longer an aesthetic controversy, it is an imperative for sane development.
Those of us in the diaspora are powerless, but you friends in Greece need to apply some kind of tactic to educate and convince Athenians on this critical issue.
When I see these pictures of new office developments in Athens I become very discouraged. The short and fat proportions will always look ugly no matter what kind of glass they wrap around, or half-hearted neo-classical gestures they attach. They separate the new buildings apart and then add parking lots and roads to encircle everything and create MORE traffic, ugly cement, and bad pedestrian experience... A few scraggly trees planted on meridians are supposed to compensate for the endless land that has been consumed by vehicles and horizontal growth.
Taller buildings create efficient land use and the opportunity for more urban parks and plazas, with more subway lines and light rail on the surface to take an emphasis away from private vehicles and parking lots. Then Athens will look better and breathe better. These additional aesthetic improvements like painting the roofs are wonderful but Athens really needs to rethink its whole development model, and quickly.

^^ so true!!

I fully subscribe to Midtownguy's opinion. Time is running short and soon the urban image of Athens will not be overtaken by neighbouring cities that a few years ago were war-torn or ex-eastern block conurbations with beautiful but dilapidated buildings in their centers and ugly commie blocks in the suburbs. Yet through perseverance and determination they are transforming. And this is a living proof that urban change may come to the bold and visionary ones.

Midtown guy I agree 100%. This is the real issue. But,at the same time, little things like painting and adding greenery on the roofs also make some difference and should not be overseen.

Of course, you are right and I'm so happy to see these improvements. The practice of making gardens on the roofs will add beauty and also is very good for the environment.:cheers:

Midtownguy, I agree with most of what you say.

On the other hand. I tend to go against the tide here on one thing: A city doesn't need that much open space to be attractive. Barcelona, Paris, Madrid, and Rome have achieved an almost perfect aesthetic balance without having much open space. The buildings in these cities are all attached to each other; almost all of the buildings take up the entire land they're built on, without leaving any open space. And many streets are narrow. The only open space in these cities is public parks and squares (or courtyards that cannot be seen from the street). Similar to Athens. Yet -unlike Athens- these are regarded as very aesthetically pleasing and attractive cities. Why? First, these cities differ from Athens in that they have preserved almost all their pre-1960 architecture. Athens' post-1960 architecture is harsh on the eyes. These cities (Rome, Paris, Madrid, etc) are composed almost entirely of "short and fat" buildings, but unlike Athens, these buildings are actually attractive with classic, timeless architectural designs. Buildings that are in harmony with each other and are pleasing to the eye. Let alone, buildings that don't hang over the sidewalk (and if they do hang over the sidewalk, they do so with arcaded collonades [like Rue de Rivoli in Paris], not cement block columns like Athenian buildings do).

I don't necessarily have a problem with the urban density of Athens. Infact, I prefer denser cities; they feel more intimate and cozy. The problem, in my opinion, is the design of the buildings in Athens (I'm referring to the post-1960 buildings), as well as the need to upkeep public squares outside the historic center (like Exarchia). And -as Midtownguy pointed out- the need for a denser urban transport network. I love the fact that the tram came back to Athens. But I think the tram should serve as a short-distance transport medium, not a long distance one. Both the Metro and Tram systems need expansion, both outwards and inwards (denser network), and we should't hesitate to build parallel Metro and Tram routes. The two won't compete with each other. They'll serve different types of commuters. Metro = longer distance. Tram = short distance (will replace many commutes currently served by buses).

Although I do whole-heartedly agree with everyone here that the Athens valley needs a high-rise district in Maroussi or Elaionas, similar to La Défense. And that the outskirts/suburbs should have more open spaces. But as for new developments closer to the center of Athens, we shouldn't fear buildings that have little open space.

I entirely agree on many of the post-1985 modern office buildings. Many are uninspiring (although, quite a few of them are actually very nice); taller buildings could have been been in their place in Maroussi or Elaionas.

:)

Check these news(not about red roofs but still about roofs):banana:

Aντικατάσταση αντιαισθητικών κεραιών τηλεόρασης σε πολυκατοικίες της πόλης

Είκοσι τρεις (23) αιτήσεις πολυκατοικιών από το κέντρο της πόλης των Τρικάλων έχει δεχθεί το αρμόδιο γραφείο της «Κοινωνίας της Πληροφορίας» προκειμένου να επιχορηγηθούν το κόστος της αντικατάστασης των πολλών και αντιαισθητικών κεραιών τηλεόρασης με μία κεντρική.

Aντικατάσταση αντιαισθητικών κεραιών τηλεόρασης σε πολυκατοικίες της πόληςΗ όλη διαδικασία έχει ολοκληρωθεί στις 23 πολυκατοικίες και η αισθητική διαφορά είναι εμφανής.

Πρόκειται για μια παρέμβαση που είχε αποφασίσει ομόφωνα το Δημοτικό Συμβούλιο της πόλης μας να επιχορηγήσει με το ποσόν των 27.500 ευρώ και αφορά στο αρχικό της στάδιο τις πολυκατοικίες της πόλης που βρίσκονται στους κύριους άξονες της πόλης, ένθεν και εκείθεν του Ληθαίου ποταμού και στην περιοχή γύρω από την παλιά πόλη. Στόχο έχει την βελτιστοποίηση της εικόνας της πόλης μας όσον αφορά τις κεραίες αλλά και τα μεταλίκι ικριώματα στις ταράτσες των πολυκατοικιών.

Σύμφωνα με την ίδια απόφαση του Δημοτικού Συμβουλίου θα απαγορεύεται σε πολυκατοικίες του κέντρου της πόλης η ύπαρξη περισσότερων της μίας κεραιών τηλεόρασης. Επιπλέον όμως της αισθητικής βελτίωσης, η ποιότητα της εικόνας που απολαμβάνουν οι ένοικοι είναι σαφώς βελτιωμένη καθόσον τα υλικά που χρησιμοποιούνται είναι τελευταίας τεχνολογίας.


Η διαδικασία αντικατάστασης των επιπλέον κεραιών είχε ξεκινήσει στις 1-4-2007 όταν είχαν καταμετρηθεί και ενημερωθεί οι διαχειριστές 58 συνολικά πολυκατοικιών που περιλαμβάνονταν στην ευρύτερη περιοχή του κέντρου της πόλης (Κεντρική πλατεία, Τσιτσάνη, Αχίλλειον, γέφυρα Τρικκαίογλου, Κονδύλη, Πυροσβεστική, Καρδίτσης, παλιές Φυλακές, Όθωνος και Ασκληπιού).

Η συγκεκριμένη πάντως απόφαση του Δημοτικού Συμβουλίου εξακολουθεί να ισχύει και εκτός από τις ήδη κατατεθειμένες 23 αιτήσεις μπορούν και οι υπόλοιπες να ενταχθούν στο πρόγραμμα, να επιδοτηθούν και να ξεκινήσουν την διαδικασία αντικατάστασης των πολλών κεραιών και παλιών μεταλλικών ικριωμάτων από τις ταράτσες τους.

http://www.fatsimare.gr/images/news/dyostena/2007/noe/antikatastasi_keraies_01.jpg

every area should follow this example..

I agree! Getting rid of these antennas would make such a big difference... Do we have any before and after pictures?

By the way the antennas is a problem only in the old buildings , new ones always use just one central antenna.

I agree! Getting rid of these antennas would make such a big difference... Do we have any before and after pictures?

No sorry i dont... but in Trikala it's in apartments like these they're going to get rid off all the antennas and replace them with a central reception :

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1333/asklipiosagalmart6.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9097/kondylirs0.jpg

the difference is going to be obvious....hopefully

dear friends
]although my post is really late considering the last post, i can add some thoughts.
First there is a real problem with the athens skyline, second we dont need red roofs, i agree with metroguardian, third there is a solution for all the problems as far as we are willing to face them.
My proposition is very simple and ironically it had been broadcasted on tv also
has anyone of you seen the heineken ad for the athens champions league final ? where all the roofs where green? and lots of people where playing football from roof to roof? imagine that to be true !!!
great measure from trikala authorities to contribute to the replacement of old antennas. it could be easily adopted to athens as well.

It's funny reading the opinion of some people in here...why don't you take a look at the Athens from the air thread in Cityscapes and see the international opinions on Athens...people have said how amazing it looks and even saying it is the best city from above. THIS IS NOT GREEKS BUT FOREIGNERS MAKING THESE STATEMENTS!

greeks are very pessimistic people. there are various good and bad consequences of this. dont expect a greek, however, to praise many MODERN greek achievements until he/she has lived a while outside of greece to appreciate what MODERN greece has to offer.

heres an example. whenever people i meet in greece start yappin on about how great greece is for vacation but how awful it is to live there, i simply state that one in five people in the US does not have health insurance (thats 50 or 60 million citizens by the way). 95% of the time i get blank stares of shock. the grass is always greener on the other side.

oh and one more thing - if what happened in new orleans happened in greece, parliament would have been burnt to the ground...

very common with Greek cities

Mersin-Turkey
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4894/album118020028bfb9.jpg

http://www.ustay.com/images/projeler/buyuk/metropol2.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/stormicy5/MErsinnnn2.jpg

Adana
http://aycu39.webshots.com/image/40518/2000630791307431055_rs.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q217/tsigalko/wowBURAK_ataturk_park_i_panoramasi_.jpg

but although there are roofs Kayseri is ugly city. Roof doesn't solve everything. sometimes red roof shows the view more ugly.
http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/43499/2001907887507228299_rs.jpg
http://aycu17.webshots.com/image/40736/2002830616820184823_rs.jpg
http://aycu02.webshots.com/image/42081/2002885045939268642_rs.jpg
Paris. no ugly red roofs
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Aftnn_The_Seine_from_the_Eiffel_Tower.jpg

Rome. Red roofs are suited to this kind of "classical" architecture very much. I think the angle of the roof is important too.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/St_Peter%27s_Square%2C_Vatican_City_-_April_2007.jpg/800px-St_Peter%27s_Square%2C_Vatican_City_-_April_2007.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Roma-piazza_del_popolo2.jpg/800px-Roma-piazza_del_popolo2.jpg

venice
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Venice01.jpg

Wow! Mersin rocks!..:eek2:

....

wwowowoowow!!! i whole commieblock city!!!! i love it :) btw mersin looks cool... reminds me of l.a

I don't think Turkish cities look common to Greek ones at all from above.
Personally as you have said Kuvvaci I think the red roofs look bad on most buildings that are not in the correct style.

I love Athens roofs as white as long as they don't have lots of roof junk and as long as they are not off coloured white and dilapidated.

I don't think it makes any sense to have shingled roofs on modern buildings. What I am proposing is what has already been done in Madrid, Valencia, Monte Carlo, maybe elsewhere, too: use a terracota-colour (instead of white) sealant for the flat roof. It's only visible from above and does not interfere with the architecture of the building at all. It makes modern buildings fit better in the centre of an old city, without altering the looks of the buildings at all. The reason this is not done in Greece is not because we aesthetically object to it: it's because no one gives a damn about what happens outside their front door. Don't get me wrong, I love Athens more than anyone I know. My family has been living in its centre since the 19th centrury. This place feels like home and I love it; it's the people that inhabit it since a few decades that I don't like...

I don't think Turkish cities look common to Greek ones at all from above.
Personally as you have said Kuvvaci I think the red roofs look bad on most buildings that are not in the correct style.

I love Athens roofs as white as long as they don't have lots of roof junk and as long as they are not off coloured white and dilapidated.

there is not any "Turkish city" type. Mediteranean cities of Turkey are different that inland cities, and as you like or don't like, mediteranean cities of Turkey is common with Greek cities like whole other "new look" mediteranean cities in Cyprus, Lebonan, Israel or Spain.

I don't think it makes any sense to have shingled roofs on modern buildings. What I am proposing is what has already been done in Madrid, Valencia, Monte Carlo, maybe elsewhere, too: use a terracota-colour (instead of white) sealant for the flat roof. It's only visible from above and does not interfere with the architecture of the building at all. It makes modern buildings fit better in the centre of an old city, without altering the looks of the buildings at all. The reason this is not done in Greece is not because we aesthetically object to it: it's because no one gives a damn about what happens outside their front door. Don't get me wrong, I love Athens more than anyone I know. My family has been living in its centre since the 19th centrury. This place feels like home and I love it; it's the people that inhabit it since a few decades that I don't like...

could you show examples with photos please my friend.

there is not any "Turkish city" type. Mediteranean cities of Turkey are different that inland cities, and as you like or don't like, mediteranean cities of Turkey is common with Greek cities like whole other "new look" mediteranean cities in Cyprus, Lebonan, Israel or Spain.
Yes, I think you are right; the geography and the climate are more important than the borders! I've noticed that in France, Marseille seemed to me more similar to Athens than to Paris. I haven't been to Turkey yet, but I am sure the same thing happens there, coastal cities must have many similarities with Greek cities.

could you show examples with photos please my friend.
Some examples are here :

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=524193

This can be combined with roof gardens of course, when technically possible, but that's another story. What I am talking about here is just adding colour to the sealant. It doesn't get any easier than that.

The greatest problem with Athens is not it's lack of real roofs, though this would remedy the problem somewhat. It the disgusting looking balconies and awnings that for some reason must be attached to every single floor of every single bulding bult in the city. In general, it is the facades that must be improved, if they can even BE improved at this point.

That horizontal breakup of the buildings is killing the city. You see all those lines going across the buildings and you cringe.

there is not any "Turkish city" type. Mediteranean cities of Turkey are different that inland cities, and as you like or don't like, mediteranean cities of Turkey is common with Greek cities like whole other "new look" mediteranean cities in Cyprus, Lebonan, Israel or Spain.

They are slightly common but the appearance of the buildings look quite different.
Athens looks very different to the Mediterranean cities of Turkey and in Israel, Lebanon etc.

Especially in Israel, the buildings tend to be with less balconies. This is totally different to Athens!

Tel Aviv
http://www.auscillate.com/images/post_heads/tel_aviv_morning_2.jpg

In Beirut the buildings are taller than in Athens:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/NWPilots-Transatlantic/Day%2012%20-%20getting_closer_to_beirut.jpg

Izmir:
http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/travel/tg/lp/a0/500x500_a0100f7311c253519a93c54e79ca809d.jpg

Athens:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/118555781_0e6c10ea0c_b.jpg

See, there are some big differences and they are all easily distinguishable...but your right, they do look SLIGHTLY similar. :cheers:

^^ big differences ? :)

those are minimum differences. Bt accept as you wish I can't force.

I really really dont agree with the red roofs idea, but I respect the idea behind it. The OP wants a common quality within chaos. I agree, this generaly is a good thing.

I would start by putting max and minimum heights per street. I dont like it when within the same street one building is 10 stories high and the one next to it 5. We are left to look at the unfinished side of the 10 story building.

I also dont like it when two 5 story buildings have different story height (2.4m and 3.0m), this tends to look stupid (and is unsafe during earthquakes).

Further, restrictions on certain color use can bolster a common aesthetical identity.

The reason why Lebanon, Turkey and Greece from a distance look the same, is because the way the industry of construction is organized and the lack of regulations. Plots are worth money, and are released for construction organically like rings around the city core. This system applies everywhere whatever the cityscale is.

Lets not limit comparisons of Athens (or Saloniki) to the east. During my stay in Argentina, sometimes I wondered if i wasnt in Greece. Same economical system of construction industry. Sao paulo, Rio de Janeiro, all the same in my view.

In greece the building height limit within the 2 great city cores is 27 meters. If this number was 60 (or 100), I think our cities would have looked even more like the great metropolitan areas of South America.

Couldn't agree more with the last statement:

Sao Paulo

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Saopaulo_copan.jpg

Athens:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/118555781_0e6c10ea0c_b.jpg

I am sorry but of those 2 pictures... well it isnt sao paolo that i like more! If Athens is going to have skyscrapes then only as a business district and not everywhere and too many of them. A good business areal. For the rest of the city: parks, parks, parks. A lot of green. Create free space. Change the structure of the ground plan and everything new should fit the new plan. Create a law which requires a percentage free room for new building with green. Make a law that forces owners of polykatoikies to paint thier buildings every 7 years. Get rid of the antennas. Make contests of the most creative and beautiful polykatoikia of Athens. Greeks love to compete in everything.

This Sao Paolo pictures is more then a nightmare for me then a visionary dream. My personal opinion..

^^ absolutely right!

GM, well done, you expressed exactly my point!

Savas, I also agree with you, I think GM's example is such a good way of showing how a country can define its urban landscape by solemly imposing non-specific general rules (as example height).

Greece lacks specific rules, or the possibilty for exceptions.

The freedom of the engineers is limited by these general non-specific rules. Its almost impossible to use a metal structure in a building, but even a concrete structure is for a large part predefined by the state (a 5 story building should have three 2 meters concrete walls in x-direction and three 2 meters concrete walls in y-direction. The building code does not respect my genious if I was able to solve the problem in a different way..say a central solid concrete box or whatever.)

That said, I have to say, freeing up the laws imposes great danger to the cities for unprofessional morons to get their way. I have a secret, greece is full of them, they are called ergolavi.
For example, still in greece a civil engineer is allowed to "design" a building up to 6 stories. Well, quite frankly thats rediculous. Just as rediculous that an architect is allowed to calculate the load bearing structure for a 4 story building. Both are beeing done. The people that work at the municipality are not well trained. They only know how the be bureaucrats, bad taste and corrupt.

So, when somebody talks about high rise or other exceptions in greece, my immediate reaction is always: Yes, but how???

Sadly, principles and theories of urban planning that are being used in western europe would probably many times be excuted in Greece in a tasteless manner.

Nobody said that Sao Paulo is an example for Athens. On the contrary it looks like what parts of Athens might look if we had let height limits loose as we did with the other parameters that permeated the development of our city during the last four to five decades.

I agree with Savas and I will repeat here that skyscrapers in Athens should be used only as a means of restructuring and rearranging certain city functions and not simply increasing the number of built spaces, something which may not happen in, say the case of Elaionas where in 9 million square meters you can do parks, low density construction and the necessary infrastructure. The benefits have been analyzed elsewhere and are much larger than any of the disadvantages.

This of course will not interfere with any other actions taken on the existing parts of the city where, at some point in time, in high density areas there will need to be taken some serious action. I mean, Ampelokipi, Kypseli and Pagrati may have to start seeing some "deductive" action :D (i.e. demolitions) in say after 2020 or something...

Παιδιά συμφωνούμε εδώ πέρα, δε χρειάζεται να λέμε τα ίδια και τα ίδια...

Αλλά τι ανοησίες λέμε, αν δεν αποβιώσουν μέχρις ενός οι σημερινές γενιές όσων είναι στις ηλικίες από 40 και πάνω (μηδ' εμου εξαιρουμένου δηλαδή) δεν γίνεται τίποτα.

Τι να λέμε τώρα... :ohno:

I agree that visual pollution is a serious urban issue that must be taken into consideration by the administration. However, I guess that Athens resembles more Rome or Barcelona than the aforementioned cities, where a real sea of bad quality constructions is mixed with better quality constructions, in other words a sea of concrete where better off areas are mingled with shanties and real ghettoes; all of them within the sight of the same image.

Athens balcony type constructions can be found also, by thousands, both in Rome and Barcelona; with one small difference in the case of Rome. They've developped smaller clusters of appartment buildings (buildings like the ones found in Athens) divided each other by greener areas or boulevards; giving thus a perception of less density. So in Rome they have small clusters made up of few tens of such buildings divided each other by parks or main thoroughfares.

As for Elaionas, I had designed about a year ago some 3D virtual
models showing that a huge green area could be developped in the whole area, interrupted only by small clusters of different purpose buildings. Like a financial district of skyscrapers (like the one of Canary Wharf in London or its Parisian counterpart La Defense), luxury residential areas of houses and mansions, and finally residential areas of luxurious lowrise appartment buildings.

Here you got a few pictures of what I've designed:

In this screenshot here below, you can see an older design of the then proposed Panathinaikos stadium that's going to be built in Botanikos. If you take a look at the roads, you'll realize that Iera Odos is at the far right and Orfeos at the far left of the shot, while Egaleo in the background of the image. Now just imagine a small cluster of say...10 well-designed skyscrapers another one of luxurious residential houses; another one of lowrise appartment buildings; etc. And all of them scattered in a huge green 9,000 stremmata area
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/8393/schpolis6lk6.jpg

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3214/schpolis11jg9.jpg

A view of an imaginary improved Iera Odos
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9762/telpao5hh8.jpg

Just look at this one guys!!! Look the potential of this hidden pearl inside Athens. This one is taken virtually from the south. Just imagine two 10 skyscrapers clusters there or one bigger of 20 buildings. Just covering, say...300 stremmata at the most and we would still have 8,700 stremmata to develop small residential areas as well as 2 or three commercial ones. And still then we would have some 6,000 stremmata of green space!!!
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/9696/schpolis5ev6.jpg

http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/1075/schpolis4ci5.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7574/schpolis3jd7.jpg

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6486/schpolis2lh9.jpg

A view from the NE with Egaleo and Peristeri to the right across Ethniki Odos
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8735/schpolis1gn5.jpg

And now a few ones of how could look the surroundings of the new Stadium in Botanikos. Just add a the skyscrapers in the background (which I didn't have the time to add or design) with your imagination :D
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/3286/telpao3xk3.jpg

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/2048/telpao17nx4.jpg

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7308/telpao16yz9.jpg

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9456/telpao15zv8.jpg

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/2043/image14hf4.jpg

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4278/telpao13vz5.jpg

AX, ΠΑΝΑΘΗΝΑΙΚΑΡΑ MOY!!!
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2626/telpao12pw7.jpg

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7317/telpao11nn1.jpg

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/3967/telpao10bi2.jpg

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/8833/telpao9kx7.jpg

A view from Iera Odos
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3682/image7xi6.jpg

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/6938/telpao2uz6.jpg

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7799/telpao1rt7.jpg

sigh...whatever, just call me crazy or even a guy with nothing more than nonsensical illusions. But I guess all the above is feasible with some good planning and coordination. So, this way Elaionas could become not only the most booming area of Athens or Greece but of Europe. Just think 9,000 stremmata are waiting...starving, for some promt development!!

I really really dont agree with the red roofs idea, but I respect the idea behind it. The OP wants a common quality within chaos. I agree, this generaly is a good thing.

I would start by putting max and minimum heights per street. I dont like it when within the same street one building is 10 stories high and the one next to it 5. We are left to look at the unfinished side of the 10 story building.

I also dont like it when two 5 story buildings have different story height (2.4m and 3.0m), this tends to look stupid (and is unsafe during earthquakes).

Further, restrictions on certain color use can bolster a common aesthetical identity.

The reason why Lebanon, Turkey and Greece from a distance look the same, is because the way the industry of construction is organized and the lack of regulations. Plots are worth money, and are released for construction organically like rings around the city core. This system applies everywhere whatever the cityscale is.

Lets not limit comparisons of Athens (or Saloniki) to the east. During my stay in Argentina, sometimes I wondered if i wasnt in Greece. Same economical system of construction industry. Sao paulo, Rio de Janeiro, all the same in my view.

In greece the building height limit within the 2 great city cores is 27 meters. If this number was 60 (or 100), I think our cities would have looked even more like the great metropolitan areas of South America.
The red roof idea is only about the central districts. I honestly believe that it works in Barcelona and Valencia and it would certainly work for Athens. Again, I am only referring to adding a colour to the flat roof surface, invisible from everywhere except from a hill, a tall building or a helicopter.

Generally, towers in parks is not a good idea. The experiment was tried in Western cities and creates more problems.
It is better to define business districts of higher density and allow tall buldings there. Also certain residential areas should be built vertically. Of course adding green areas is important, but excessively large open areas of green creating distances between the towers is a terrible formula. You will just add more cars and traffic. Street life will be nonexistent in those areas. The idea is to incorporate green plazas and squares of small to medium size with retail and business between the towers. This makes less crime and more streetlife. Large green areas between towers must have security and maintenance or they become areas of criminality. Or just 7 lane highways connecting them together, a worse nightmare.
London is following a development plan that is sensible, ambitious, and sensitive to historical areas and landmarks as well. The towers are placed in areas ripe for development. London is very successful.
You don't have to choose Sao Paolo style development as your extreme example...there is grey between black and white, but in Athens the current height restrictions are destroying the environment as development has no choice but to sprawl out and consume all in the path. Height is not the enemy! It is the bad planning of where the high structures will go. In Athens you have an absolute ban:nuts: and this is a plan that is the worst of all :ohno:!

If somebody reads through my posts, he should notice my posts are not against or in favor of highrise, nor do I claim Sao Paulo is beautiful or ugly.

My post was meant to show that cities in Greece look chaotic, but in fact,
are very much predefined by the state by a few variables.

Sao paulo, objectively, shows what happens when you change 1 of those variables.

Greece's building code and greece's municipalities are not trained and/or organised to deal with exceptions, they just impose asphyxiating general rules. One could reason this is because at some point they lost control, I really dont know.

I think it concerns this topic. The OP suggests a common quality (a general rule) between everything, but the opposite is also true. How do we safely and responsibly allow differences (highrise being just 1 of them)?

Anybody making propaganda for change, should offer solutions for the root of the problem ->

governement agencies and their capabilities,
municipalites and how they control,
commities that judge aesthetics,
the building code,
the engineers and how their responsibilities are defined,
etc.

After all, its not just for Athens, but also for Thessaloniki and Patras.
And its not just about highrise, but as I pointed out, also type of structure, building typology, etc.etc.

I really want change, but I also realize the ergolavi are just waiting around the corner to abuse well intended freedom in the worst possible manner i cant even begin to imagine.

I agree with Midtownguy.I am also against filling the city with huge parks, with the exception of few. Small to medium parks, spread out throughout the city and mostly in residential areas. Big parks all around create traffic jams, criminality and kill streetlife.

A city should look and be alive, not like a village after hours. If people want to live in a village, they are more than welcome to return to theirs. Big dead cities like many of those in North Europe can not be the model for Athens, this is not who we are. The city must reflect that. Athens is a vibrant city, like few around the world and we should keep it that way.

I am also for painting roofs using terracotta colours and adding plants. When i stand at a balcony and see the roofs below, the sight is sad. I don't fly over the city, i just live in it.

I agree with Midtownguy.I am also against filling the city with huge parks, with the exception of few. Small to medium parks, spread out throughout the city and mostly in residential areas. Big parks all around create traffic jams, criminality and kill streetlife.

A city should look and be alive, not like a village after hours. If people want to live in a village, they are more than welcome to return to theirs. Big dead cities like many of those in North Europe can not be the model for Athens, this is not who we are. The city must reflect that. Athens is a vibrant city, like few around the world and we should keep it that way.

I am also for painting roofs using terracotta colours and adding plants. When i stand at a balcony and see the roofs below, the sight is sad. I don't fly over the city, i just live in it.

I think, and that's my humble opinion, that having an Elaionas full of old Industries, landfills and neglected areas doesn't bring any vibrancy to the city. Furthermore, developing a huge green area like the one I'm proposing with lots of residential and commercial clusters or financial centers inside it (in other words constructed islands), would not change the face of Athens (where the city proper has a land area of 500 sq kms, while Elaionas has just 9 sq kms, of which 5 would be clearly green, that's just 1% of the city's total area). Moreover, I don't see that nowadays Elaionas adds any positive aspect to the city, and even so Athens is one of the most vibrant cities in Europe. So, if I have to choose between having Elaionas converted into a sea of green with beautiful, well-designed residential and financial areas or a sea of more concrete added to the city (full of lowrise boxes and balcony appartment buildings; and even a few commieblocks... OMG that would be terrible) with just a few smaller parks (with underground parkings) made up of a few trees and a 40% of cement.....Well, I prefer the first option.

Does it have to be either deserted factories/sea of concrete or huge parks?

I think, and that's my humble opinion, that having an Elaionas full of old Industries, landfills and neglected areas doesn't bring any vibrancy to the city. Furthermore, developing a huge green area like the one I'm proposing with lots of residential and commercial clusters or financial centers inside it (in other words constructed islands), would not change the face of Athens (where the city proper has a land area of 500 sq kms, while Elaionas has just 9 sq kms, of which 5 would be clearly green, that's just 1% of the city's total area). Moreover, I don't see that nowadays Elaionas adds any positive aspect to the city, and even so Athens is one of the most vibrant cities in Europe. So, if I have to choose between having Elaionas converted into a sea of green with beautiful, well-designed residential and financial areas or a sea of more concrete added to the city (full of lowrise boxes and balcony appartment buildings; and even a few commieblocks... OMG that would be terrible) with just a few smaller parks (with underground parkings) made up of a few trees and a 40% of cement.....Well, I prefer the first option.

Id prefer making it into an arty district full of industrial architecture converted into dwellings and clubs (like a large scale Gazi). Maybe there could also be a small cluster of mid-highrise in this area but I wouldn't prefer it over lowrise architecture.

Imagine if they build everything in this area with high architectural value...like a new and ultra-modern museum/art gallery or something as a focal point in the area.

^^ Ah, you mean like the one presented in my blog! :D

I agree that visual pollution is a serious urban issue that must be taken into consideration by the administration. However, I guess that Athens resembles more Rome or Barcelona than the aforementioned cities, where a real sea of bad quality constructions is mixed with better quality constructions, in other words a sea of concrete where better off areas are mingled with shanties and real ghettoes; all of them within the sight of the same image.

Athens balcony type constructions can be found also, by thousands, both in Rome and Barcelona; with one small difference in the case of Rome. They've developped smaller clusters of appartment buildings (buildings like the ones found in Athens) divided each other by greener areas or boulevards; giving thus a perception of less density. So in Rome they have small clusters made up of few tens of such buildings divided each other by parks or main thoroughfares.

As for Elaionas, I had designed about a year ago some 3D virtual
models showing that a huge green area could be developped in the whole area, interrupted only by small clusters of different purpose buildings. Like a financial district of skyscrapers (like the one of Canary Wharf in London or its Parisian counterpart La Defense), luxury residential areas of houses and mansions, and finally residential areas of luxurious lowrise appartment buildings.

Here you got a few pictures of what I've designed:

In this screenshot here below, you can see an older design of the then proposed Panathinaikos stadium that's going to be built in Botanikos. If you take a look at the roads, you'll realize that Iera Odos is at the far right and Orfeos at the far left of the shot, while Egaleo in the background of the image. Now just imagine a small cluster of say...10 well-designed skyscrapers another one of luxurious residential houses; another one of lowrise appartment buildings; etc. And all of them scattered in a huge green 9,000 stremmata area
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/8393/schpolis6lk6.jpg

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3214/schpolis11jg9.jpg

A view of an imaginary improved Iera Odos
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9762/telpao5hh8.jpg

Just look at this one guys!!! Look the potential of this hidden pearl inside Athens. This one is taken virtually from the south. Just imagine two 10 skyscrapers clusters there or one bigger of 20 buildings. Just covering, say...300 stremmata at the most and we would still have 8,700 stremmata to develop small residential areas as well as 2 or three commercial ones. And still then we would have some 6,000 stremmata of green space!!!
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/9696/schpolis5ev6.jpg

http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/1075/schpolis4ci5.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7574/schpolis3jd7.jpg

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6486/schpolis2lh9.jpg

A view from the NE with Egaleo and Peristeri to the right across Ethniki Odos
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8735/schpolis1gn5.jpg

And now a few ones of how could look the surroundings of the new Stadium in Botanikos. Just add a the skyscrapers in the background (which I didn't have the time to add or design) with your imagination :D
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/3286/telpao3xk3.jpg

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/2048/telpao17nx4.jpg

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7308/telpao16yz9.jpg

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9456/telpao15zv8.jpg

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/2043/image14hf4.jpg

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4278/telpao13vz5.jpg

AX, ΠΑΝΑΘΗΝΑΙΚΑΡΑ MOY!!!
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2626/telpao12pw7.jpg

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7317/telpao11nn1.jpg

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/3967/telpao10bi2.jpg

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/8833/telpao9kx7.jpg

A view from Iera Odos
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3682/image7xi6.jpg

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/6938/telpao2uz6.jpg

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7799/telpao1rt7.jpg

sigh...whatever, just call me crazy or even a guy with nothing more than nonsensical illusions. But I guess all the above is feasible with some good planning and coordination. So, this way Elaionas could become not only the most booming area of Athens or Greece but of Europe. Just think 9,000 stremmata are waiting...starving, for some promt development!!


amazing!!! is that your creation?

amazing!!! is that your creation?

Yeah, but I quit it a year ago since I got many negative critics from different people, saying that I live in a dream (they're right actually). After all it's just an imagination and we'll have to resign ourselves to more of the same.

Τι να πούμε τώρα, τα όνειρα για αλλού...εμείς είμαστε μόνο για συζητήσεις για το αν θα γίνει πάρκο στο Ελληνικό ή όχι...Ενώ σε άλλες χώρες της Ευρώπης βλέπουμε πως ολόκληρες αστικές ζώνες, που μέχρι πρότινος αποτελούσαν τις υποβαθμισμένες περιοχές, αναπτύσσονται ταχύτατα σε μεγάλα εμπορικά και οικονομικά κέντρα (φιλικές προς το περιβάλλον βέβαια).

Ενώ εδώ γίνεται ντόρος επειδή θέλουν να φτιαξουν κήπους στις ταράτσες των 11ορόφων πολυκατοικιών της Ευαγελλίστριας στο Περιστέρι.

axxxxxxx poso dikio eheis... mh masas. dynata. egw eimai mazi sou :)

No sorry i dont... but in Trikala it's in apartments like these they're going to get rid off all the antennas and replace them with a central reception :

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1333/asklipiosagalmart6.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9097/kondylirs0.jpg

the difference is going to be obvious....hopefully

Don't you have digital or cable tv installed in your neighborhoods?

I mean these are not poor neighborhoods in Athens right? So they should have cable and etc so why they need the antennas?

Don't you have digital or cable tv installed in your neighborhoods?

I mean these are not poor neighborhoods in Athens right? So they should have cable and etc so why they need the antennas?

Istanbullu this is in Trikala(different city),those pics with the antennas ..and thank god these are part of the replacement program-they are going to replace them with one central antenna-unit...as for Athens i think they're still sleeping ...some apartments in areas in central Athens have so many antennas that its really an eyesore...as for digital and cable t.v in Athens some have it some don't.. depends ..but sometimes they have antennas no matter if they still have cable t.v etc..

Don't you have digital or cable tv installed in your neighborhoods?

I mean these are not poor neighborhoods in Athens right? So they should have cable and etc so why they need the antennas?
These two pics are not from Athens, but the point is the same.

In most of Athens, cable services are pay-TV channels, not free ones. Free channels are only transmitted over the air, as far as I know. Most channels are analogue, and there are 4 free digital channels at the moment. Digital or analogue is irrelevant though, it has nothing to do with antenna or cable, it has to do with the signal encoding. The 4 free digital channels are transmitted over the air, for instance.

Only in the core of the historical centre, in Plaka, antennas are banned altogether and all signals are fed through cable for free. A little bit further out, in Exarcheia, there is also free cable TV infrastructure but antennas are not banned!!! Clever? NOT...

Anyway, there is no need to ban antennas outside the historical centre; what they should do is just ban multiple antennas, make a central antenna installation compulsory in apartment buildings. One antenna per building is not that ugly. What they do now is they give financial assistance, which is good, but it makes no difference for those people who do not care. My building has 42 flats - can you imagine what the roof looked like before the rennovation? 42 antennas...it's only got 1 now, the roof has become a pleasant place again and the reception is actually better, as it was installed by a qualified technician, unlike the DIY jobs that are done in most separate antennas...

Actually digital tv also causes a disturbing view. At least it's not the real solution. Instead of antenna, digital tv companies put a setallite dish on the roof. In Turkey they usually put one satellite dish to the roofs of apertments for the use of the entire apertment or block but sometimes every flat owner decides to puts one satellite dish to their balconies, and causing a terrible view.

cable tv is better in that sense but it is an old technology.. digital tv is better but has this satellite dish thing.. :(

Yes, the dish is for satellite TV...but there is also terrestrial digital TV, which is received through the same "fishbone" antenna as analogue terrestrial TV. Anyway, I think 1 terrestrial + 1 satellite antenna per building is still fine. I wish they would make it compulsory instead of just giving financial incentives...When I was in Paris, a friend of mine was telling me that you pay a fine if they spot you having an antenna in your balcony. That's how it should be.

One thing though. I was impressed by the number of dishes in Istanbul in 2002. I don't know if they found other means but back at that time it was interesting. Sure, something that it might interest us is the fact that this image with the dishes may (and for sure it is) much different in the middle-sized or the large residential blocks for the middle class and above. I wouldn't expect that many dishes in Bahcesehir or the Metrocity residential towers for instance.

One of the pros of organized building in big cities where population density needs to be managed :D

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5049/dscf1582yk0.jpg
Greece or Italy? When it comes to roof junk, all Southern Euro cities are on the same page.

But who said Istanbul's satellites are any better?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1047/719909672_cd2e34f02b_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2081/2155378656_f3929141ac_b.jpg

^^hahaha yeah I mean that.. Looks terrible but fortunately this look is stricted with poor neighbourhoods.. You don't see that shit in the CBD, at least at most parts..

@gm

no, you don't see dishes in residential areas like bahcesehir or any other similar suburbs or neighborhoods.

^^ to be honest first tie I see something like this.

I think first picture is Dolapdere, I culdn't recognize the second place, but looks like Izmit

@GM, why don't you plan to come here again. 2002 is a long time ago, we are close countries and you don't need passport anymore for entering Turkey. Your ID is enough.

^^ to be honest first tie I see something like this.

I think first picture is Dolapdere, I culdn't recognize the second place, but looks like Izmit

@GM, why don't you plan to come here again. 2002 is a long time ago, we are close countries and you don't need passport anymore for entering Turkey. Your ID is enough.

really ?i.d is enough for Turkey?i thought about driving at some point to Istanbul ..not sure when though..is it the same for Turkish entering Greece?

btw cities change fast just have a look at how Athens was a few years ago..big difference i think.Not always for the better though ;)

^^ to be honest first tie I see something like this.

I think first picture is Dolapdere, I culdn't recognize the second place, but looks like Izmit

@GM, why don't you plan to come here again. 2002 is a long time ago, we are close countries and you don't need passport anymore for entering Turkey. Your ID is enough.

Yep, it's been a long time since then... and true, I miss this fabulous city...

Some of MY Istanbul pics, not seen in forums since very-very long ago

Talking about a city that's got it all...


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Other%20Cities%20and%20Regions/GoldenHornMosques2-2007edit.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Other%20Cities%20and%20Regions/Isblue-LeventfromBuyukdere-2007edit.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Other%20Cities%20and%20Regions/Vosporous2-Medium.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Other%20Cities%20and%20Regions/Levent1.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Other%20Cities%20and%20Regions/Levent2.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Other%20Cities%20and%20Regions/Vosporous4-Medium.jpg

I really miss this city...

^^ to be honest first tie I see something like this.

I think first picture is Dolapdere, I culdn't recognize the second place, but looks like Izmit

@GM, why don't you plan to come here again. 2002 is a long time ago, we are close countries and you don't need passport anymore for entering Turkey. Your ID is enough.

Izmit?! No way man.. We don't have that kinda shit in Izmit. :lol: Looks like an apartment from Sariyer to me. Actually Giorgos photo is an extreme example..

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Other%20Cities%20and%20Regions/Levent2.jpg

..


We had Kanyon planted right here.. :) I guess this pic was taken right before the construction started.. Can see the fences and old Eczacibasi headquarter..

That was December 2002 BTW. In the top of my Istanbul pics you can see the Tefken tower under construction :)

I would like to make a comment here and end the issue about "good" and "bad" neighborhoods in cities:

In Athens we have seen a paradox that it is difficult to be encountered in other cities: There is a homogeneity in the way buildings are built, regardless of the financial status of the owners. Of course, you may have extremes like mansions or corporate offices that clearly have a distinctive architecture, BUT, the main characteristic of Athens are these four to six-storey apartment blocks. They may be cheap or old constructions, with or without gardens, they may be ultra luxurious with the newer ones with large balconies, etc, but the main event remains: They are totally homogeneous and according to some, at the time the vast volume of "polykatikites" (blocks of flats) were built in the center of the city, Athens might have lost its character but also escaped the differences seen in other cities from NY to Istanbul.

In a city of 4.5 million that Athens is, we have some Roma reservations in the west outskirts their population does not exceed a few dozens of thousands and that's it. Funny, illegal housing in Greece nowadays has to do with luxurious residential units built in beautiful landscape settings and not low-quality shanties as the case may be in other countries.

On the other hand though, we need to stress that a city MUST have many facets in order to fulfill the diverse functions defined by its role. The function of a business/ financial center requires a part of the city that is totally different than the one of a residential distict with much higher vertical extensons and ease of access and parking faclities. So, it becomes clear that it cannot be served by monotonous arrays of residential blocks like they exist in any cities. Nor can it be kicked out because of some leftist or other extreme idealists that despise the idea of generating capital by means of capitalist entrepreneurial activities.

In the absence of any other viable alternative of producing large distributable amounts of wealth created, we need to ensure that parts of the city will be capable to foster these activities and thus, attract new entrepreneurs to come to town, invest and create jobs. It is not the perfect example but it works for most of the world, compared to the other alternatives. That's why they have CBDs in many cities, from Istanbul to Beijing and from LA to Moscow. And the reason that these CBDs look the same is because they have been proved to work in this way. Until we find a new way of urban development to cater for new transportation or accommodation means, La Defence or Levent will work just fine for what they are being built and developed, while in Athens we will always be facing the paradox that the real estate analysts will be talking about the adequacy of the existing properties for commercial use and the business world to be willing, able and asking for new buildings and endeavours to set up their operations, in par to what they might find in Madrid, ... London, Paris, Milan, or even Pristina and Bratislava.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee... :D