Urban renewal in South African CBDs is a thing we hear about almost every day. There have been success stories and criticism. My question is: Do you think your council is doing enough to revitalise your CBD, what do you like about what they are doing and what do you not like? If you where given the power, what would you change?

I know there are many social and political implications and solutions are not that easy to find, but just interested in what you guys think.

Looking forward to your responses
Luf

Ill start this off. Johannesburg CBD:

For me the JHB CBD is one big mess, i hate the place but at the same time i can see how great it can be. renewal is taking place but at such a slow speed. There is no point in trying to market nice apartments and hotals when you walk outside and there is litter, over flowing bins, and lawlessness. It will never work, no one wants to live and work in beautiful places when the area is just terrible. I would never buy an apartment there when the building next door is falling apart.

If i was 'mayor' i would send in a massive cleaning force, remove every piece of litter, over flowing bins, add much more visible police and attempt to turn it into a 'melrose arch' enviroment (ambititius i know:). The hawkers (i know jobs are an issue) are just terrible, how can one have a world class city when meat and veg are being sold on the pavements.. Enforce the LAW PLEASE. The Nelson Mandela bridge is great but when you get off it you are faced with a HUGE, DIRTY taxi rank (field type thing) Why they have not removed this baffles me. On a positive note, the new transport system will work great i think and add to the process of urban renewal, Newtown and Braam are also looking great but all around that is just a mess.

I believe time is running out: Developments in Sandton, Fourways, Melrose Arch, Rosebank ect. are just more attractive than the CBD and once all of them have moved out the CBD, i doubt any will go back.
Just my opinion. Thanks

I must disagree with you Luf about Joburg's CBD. There are indeed parts which are really nasty (like the taxi rank you mentioned - what an eye sore! :ohno: And also Bertrams area), but the areas around Gandhi Square, the High Court Precinct and the South-West Financial District are looking SMART! And I'm seriously not talking here out of my bias for Joburg, but it's just a fact. And I think a large part of that has had to do with the city going in and making a concerted effort to change things.

I don't know if you'll ever see the city being as high-end as Sandton etc. There definitely is a move to make the city more attractive to the wealthy, and it will do so to a certain extent, but it won't become a new Melrose Arch, and I don't think it should either because IMO that's essentially just an 'open-air' luxury estate. So you'll never see the hawkers being turfed out or the Muti shops moving back into the townships. But for me, that's kewl because that's what makes Joburg's CBD authentically African.

That doesn't mean, of course, that the CBD must be dirty and unsafe etc, but I do think that the city has made much progress in making the city prettier and more liveable, and I think you can see this in the regular photos of Joburg in the Gallery, the plethora of developments in the city (New Ponte being the pinnacle of this), and the numerous 'higher-end' events that take place in the city.

I would totally buy a place in the city if only I had the moola right now... You should too. ;)

Cape Town

Needed:

1. Massive effort to increase the inner city residential population
2. Basic efficient and quality inner city bus system
3. R3 billion calatrava inspire makeover for Cape Town train station along with office tower developments at the site
4. An urban park area providing some green to the foreshore
5. Removing the car dealerships and moving them either to the waterfront in one space.
6. Informations centres need to be scattered around the city centre
7. Increased "Times square type" advertizing
8. removal of all street children if any remain on long street or otherwise
9. Total revamp of the Good Hope Centre



to be continued

Good one Mo! Just think the Times Square thing might be difficult to be done in Cape Town, yes it is very cool, but with Cape Town's scenic aesthetics, do you think we really need it or that inner-city residents would want it? Just a little sceptical about just that one.

Yes, think parking adjacent to Artscape needs to be turned into a "green lung".

The Foreshore Freeway needs to be buried from Oswald Pirow to Buitengracht and completed to emmerge beyond at Western Boulevard liking it to Green Point common. The entrace to the city also needs an overhaul, with attractive reverse-reflector street lights and a wide landscaped promenade between the medians on Table Bay Blvd and Lower Buitengracht.

Safe pedestrian access needs to be promoted over Buitengracht and the link between the Waterfront and Thibult Square needs to be created for them.

Shortmarket Street needs to be fully pedestrianised from Greenmarket to Buitenkant St, to allow pedestrian flow and stimulate St. Georges type growth to the east city precincts.

Yes Mo... Upgrade that damn station and use the sky above it for development!

That's all I can think of right now for Cape Town.

6. Informations centres need to be scattered around the city centre
Good point Mo!

I think the same should be done in JHB CBD. Nice well built 24 Hour manned Info centres, where crimes can also be reported and a gathering point for walking patroling police, they can also be used to keep an eye out on any illegal hawkers as well as aid tourists (Maps, things to do and see etc.)
Very good point

Just a note about the Nelson Mandela bridge... its a great design and its iconic within south africa but the urban renewal of a cbd needs a "building by building, street by street" approach, 10-15 years ago , the city of cape town could have just sat back and said..oh well, nothing we can do about the state of our city, which at the time was not a pleasant place at all, and at the time it too seemed like a huge task,but it had to start somewhere, and unless the nelson mandela bridge was totally necessary, a fraction of the money would have been better spent improving the cbd instead of simply trying to improve its image(which i understand is part of the process). cape town has to battle to keep companies and people here, instead of having them moving to joburg, joburg has the people, it has the resources, it has the big companies

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/405589913_21c8ef99bc_b.jpg
there are many faces to a cbd.

My take:

Every city in South Africa needs to position itself as it is best suited. In cities worldwide, certain centres specialise in certain economic activity. A city like Johannesburg is very well suited for commerce orientated headquaters, like Deloitte, Accenture, the banks, major corporates etc. Cape Town however has many parallels with cities like San Francisco, thus I believe we should position ourselves in the creatives and high-tech industries. Usually such companies have a high need for quality of life and attractive surroundings. We need to publisize Capricorn more as a high-tech node. We need to focus on Advertising Houses, Publishers, Fashion Houses, Graphic Designers, Architects, Software Developers, Model Agencies, Retailer HQ's, Petrochemical Companies and Shipping Companies (access to the sea and west African oil fields. Industries to focus on are agricultural services, textiles and fashion production, shipping and oil services, don't know... but other's too.

Johannesburg will always be the manufacturing and financial capital, but many of the aforementioned are already in Cape Town, we need to build on our base and capitalise on our outstanding beauty over any other city in South Africa and attract companies that need that type of atmosphere to keep their employees productive and inspired.

My take:

Every city in South Africa needs to position itself as it is best suited. In cities worldwide, certain centres specialise in certain economic activity. A city like Johannesburg is very well suited for commerce orientated headquaters, like Deloitte, Accenture, the banks, major corporates etc. Cape Town however has many parallels with cities like San Francisco, thus I believe we should position ourselves in the creatives and high-tech industries. Usually such companies have a high need for quality of life and attractive surroundings. We need to publisize Capricorn more as a high-tech node. We need to focus on Advertising Houses, Publishers, Fashion Houses, Graphic Designers, Architects, Software Developers, Model Agencies, Retailer HQ's, Petrochemical Companies and Shipping Companies (access to the sea and west African oil fields. Industries to focus on are agricultural services, textiles and fashion production, shipping and oil services, don't know... but other's too.

Johannesburg will always be the manufacturing and financial capital, but many of the aforementioned are already in Cape Town, we need to build on our base and capitalise on our outstanding beauty over any other city in South Africa and attract companies that need that type of atmosphere to keep their employees productive and inspired.

What Ive been saying all along..find out what your city is good at and market it aggressively, are you africa's tropical hotspot? or are you a zulu kingdom? a tourist destination? service? or a conference destination...a sports city? if so a city needs to be more specific..does joburg even need to market that since it just gets every major final handed to it? which brings in so much revenue that it makes hosting smaller non-profitable sports events pointless to host e.g. world cup of swimming..cape town is certainly not promoting itself as the sports city of south africa...but it has hosted an array of major events in multiple sports, it was even ranked in the top 10 of best sports cities in the world..its tough..but cities must take the time to figure it out

Cape Town

Needed:

1. Massive effort to increase the inner city residential population
2. Basic efficient and quality inner city bus system
3. R3 billion calatrava inspire makeover for Cape Town train station along with office tower developments at the site
4. An urban park area providing some green to the foreshore
5. Removing the car dealerships and moving them either to the waterfront in one space.
6. Informations centres need to be scattered around the city centre
7. Increased "Times square type" advertizing
8. removal of all street children if any remain on long street or otherwise
9. Total revamp of the Good Hope Centre



to be continued

Mo I agree with you on the following points 6 and 7, even though the Times Square like advertising should be done to a smaller scale.

I must disagree with you Luf about Joburg's CBD. There are indeed parts which are really nasty (like the taxi rank you mentioned - what an eye sore! :ohno: And also Bertrams area), but the areas around Gandhi Square, the High Court Precinct and the South-West Financial District are looking SMART! And I'm seriously not talking here out of my bias for Joburg, but it's just a fact. And I think a large part of that has had to do with the city going in and making a concerted effort to change things.

I don't know if you'll ever see the city being as high-end as Sandton etc. There definitely is a move to make the city more attractive to the wealthy, and it will do so to a certain extent, but it won't become a new Melrose Arch, and I don't think it should either because IMO that's essentially just an 'open-air' luxury estate. So you'll never see the hawkers being turfed out or the Muti shops moving back into the townships. But for me, that's kewl because that's what makes Joburg's CBD authentically African.

That doesn't mean, of course, that the CBD must be dirty and unsafe etc, but I do think that the city has made much progress in making the city prettier and more liveable, and I think you can see this in the regular photos of Joburg in the Gallery, the plethora of developments in the city (New Ponte being the pinnacle of this), and the numerous 'higher-end' events that take place in the city.

I would totally buy a place in the city if only I had the moola right now... You should too. ;)

Well said, Luf most of the pics I have posted under Joburg gallery are not from the areas you mentioned. They from the likes of Commisioner Street, Ghandi Square and all over the place, even Hillbrow is now cleaned everyday.

And again removal of people from delapidated places is a pain for the city's renewal as the council need to find them an alternative accomodation. The city is busy addressing that now. There are more revival on the way my man and I promise you that in 2010, Joburg will never be the same.

Please will nobody ever again compare the CBD of Joburg to Melrose Arch... i BEG you. I cant stand Melrose Arch!!! It is so fake, so pretentious and so unoriginal. It is certainly not within reach to the the middle-income group, which is what the CBD needs. And the amount of fake people that frequent it.... shit... it is horrible. And I know what I am talking about, i work in Melrose Arch.

HAHA Waltjie.. you serious? All good, appreciate your opinion. But for me Melrose Arch is great, i love everthing about it. All i want now (which wont happen i know) is to see two or three buildings that are 30floors or higher and a few more shops an restraunts.

but ok my boss is shouting for me. Chat later guys, have a good weekend.

Afraid so yeah... i cant stand this bloody place. :ohno:

Maybe its because you working there Waltjie, but I must say that I like it even though I went like 3 times there this year. But yes, I wouldn't like to see the city looking like Melrose Arch.

Yes I too love indulging my inner kugel at the MArch. It certainly is always a pumping place! But I don't think I'd like to live there... Would far prefer to live in the city. :)

I hear you Joburg! This Capetonian has to find his inner Sandtonite when I come to Jozi and hang around JB's Corner and Moyo at the Arch. Would love to see the CBD there take a turn like Cape Town's before 2010, but my deeply buried snob will always appreciate the glitz of Melrose.

Johannesburg

Needed:

1. Good public Transport.
2. A couple of new skyscrapers, 40+ floors
3. More security in Hillbrow, Yeoville and by Taxi ranks.
4. Times Square like advertising in Newtown and from Ghandi square to High court, I just hope that plans are underway.

Good Job:
1. Cleaning the city
2. moving back of some business to the CBD.
3. Resturants, resturants and more resturants and pubs moving back to the CBD.
4. CCTV.
5. Rehabilitationm of delapidated buildings.
6. City life, oh my goodness I love my city.

As the Durbanites seem to now being able to access this thread, I will give my opinion as a frequent tourist in their city.

Job Well Done:

1. Bus Transport system, CT and Joburg should just step aside.
2. Tropical City and nice beaches.
3. Ushaka Marine, dman I like it.
4. The Point
5. The whole of Umhlanga Rocks rocks ;
6. From the Casion until the stadium, impressive, very clean and alive.

Bad:

1. Dirty, dirty and dirty.
2. Taxis drivers are worst than the Joburg ones.
3. Small scale rehabilitation of buildings.
4. Marine parade is a no no at night.
5. Lack of police visibility.
6. Homeless people on beaches.
7. Hawkers are the worst ever, worst than what faraday used to be.

myself and a friend went out last night for some drinks in Melville. i hadnt been there in a long long time..... and let me tell you, i was *SHOCKED* at how that place had deteriorated, and in such a 'short' space of time. by 21:00 7th Ave was still pretty much 'okay' with lots of people sitting outside on the pavements having their dinner and what not... TWO hours later it looked like something out of a Hollywood movie with a scene in the LA Ghetto's or something... i kid you not. people were parking in the middle of the road and pouring drinks out of boot of their cars... gangster music playing out loud... just general CHAOS. it was terrible. and the worst part of all was, when we finally managed to get out of that place i said to my mate.... "i will not come back here again"

Today's Sunday Times' Metro, page 6

Huge Facelift plannes for Melville's Hub

MELVILLE'S embattled residents and business owners have unveiled far-reaching plans to rescue the Joburg surburb from crime and grime.

Among the ideas is a proposal they plan to present to Joburg council in January are an outdoor theatre at the Faan Smith Park in 4th avenue and a "walk of fame" - which will honour famous people who have lived in the surburb o on 4th and 5th avenues.

...

myself and a friend went out last night for some drinks in Melville. i hadnt been there in a long long time..... and let me tell you, i was *SHOCKED* at how that place had deteriorated, and in such a 'short' space of time. by 21:00 7th Ave was still pretty much 'okay' with lots of people sitting outside on the pavements having their dinner and what not... TWO hours later it looked like something out of a Hollywood movie with a scene in the LA Ghetto's or something... i kid you not. people were parking in the middle of the road and pouring drinks out of boot of their cars... gangster music playing out loud... just general CHAOS. it was terrible. and the worst part of all was, when we finally managed to get out of that place i said to my mate.... "i will not come back here again"


They heard you bro.

The taming of 7th Street
04 Nov 2007 - Inet Bridge -

Intro
Huge face-lift planned for Melville’s hub

By Isaac Mahlangu

Melville’s embattled residents and business owners have unveiled far-reaching plans to rescue the Joburg suburb from crime and grime.

Among the ideas in a proposal they plan to present to the Joburg council in January are an outdoor theatre at the Faan Smit Park in 4th Avenue and a “walk of fame” — which will honour famous people who have lived in the suburb — on 4th and 5th avenues.

The plan is primarily about turning 7th Street — the popular hang-out with restaurants, bars and coffee shops that inspired the SABC2 soapie 7de Laan — into a pedestrian-only street between 1st and 5th avenues.

The redevelopment plan, which was unveiled for the first time at a meeting on Monday at the Melville Junction Church, also proposes that 4th and 5th avenues be closed off to vehicles and possibly turned completely into pedestrian-only areas.

It has been suggested that vehicle access to 7th Street be restricted to weekdays from 8am to 5pm and on weekends from 8am to 2pm, but this is subject to a traffic impact plan expected to cost about R50 000.

Some side streets off 7th Street could become one- way streets, and an underground parking facility is planned at the Faan Smit Park on 4th Avenue.

In recent years Melville has become more dangerous , with more crimes and drunken revellers partying in the streets till the early hours of the morning.

Richard Tait, chairman of the Melville Residents Association, said: “The main problem is that there are too many establishments with liquor licences (which tend to operate mainly at night) and not enough day traders.”

He said bringing back more day traders would attract “a better quality clientele during the day — more along the lines of Parkhurst or the old Melville.”

Johann Strauss, who owns The Space guesthouse and Studio Gesso in 7th Street, said: “ The mix is not right anymore. We have too many bars and too many clubs.”

Nuno de Gouveia, a businessman and restaurateur who has been active in the Melville area since the mid- 1990s, said : “We have the type of guys who come here and have a plate of chips and five beers, then cause chaos.”

He said the suburb needed a face-lift to begin competing with Sandton and Melrose Arch.

“When I had my first restaurant in the area in 1994 , we were averaging R80 per person, but now we are averaging R45 per person. ”

Joburg spokesman Nthatisi Modingoane said that, while the city “does not encourage residents to develop their own precinct plans ... residents are not prohibited from developing these plans” if they fitted in with the city’s development framework.

Sunday Times

My friday afternoons and sunday mornings at Mellville are the best ever. That's one of my best joins, but I'm saddened by those news. The latest I left Meliville this year was at about 20:00 and the place still rocks.

Sad to hear about melville... too many clubs, too little quality retail. and parkhurst and greenside seem to be pulling more people at this stage. They need to act quickly in melville. Regarding melrose? I go to the gym there to feed my inner yuppie. but I am in love with the cbd. Beautiful buildings, amazing vibe. and it is clean. The only areas that are really still a bit grimy is newtown, breestreet etc. Braamfontein rocks, and values here will continue to grow. southwest is looking good. carlton is getting attention. Eloff is clean. Pritchard is getting a spruce-up. looove the place!

Sad to hear about melville... too many clubs, too little quality retail. and parkhurst and greenside seem to be pulling more people at this stage. They need to act quickly in melville. Regarding melrose? I go to the gym there to feed my inner yuppie. but I am in love with the cbd. Beautiful buildings, amazing vibe. and it is clean. The only areas that are really still a bit grimy is newtown, breestreet etc. Braamfontein rocks, and values here will continue to grow. southwest is looking good. carlton is getting attention. Eloff is clean. Pritchard is getting a spruce-up. looove the place!

Newtown is clean and there's security precense but I don't think that the guys are marketing themselves enough.

Well, Eloff is not my favourate street, I still beleive that there are too many street hawkers for the street. They need to be reduced and appropriate hawker stalls be built.

Does anyone one know anything about their cities planning for Times Square lie advertising?

I would like to see this in Jozi even if its not at the same magnitude. I thin it can bring a sence of 24 hour city. I think Main street inclusive of Ghandi sqaure and Carlton centre 's main street side will just be perfect for this. Newtown and Hillbrow will also be suitable as Hillbrow is already a 24 hour part of the city.

Ster Kine, NU metro, Coca-Cola, SAB, Nokia, Motorola, Sony, BMW, Mercedes, Clothing labels etc can actually use the opportunity and advertise in this spaces. Imagine the JSE advertising in Ghandi Square as that square is in the financial district and the square is buzzing with professionals all day long.


http://i.pbase.com/o6/04/463304/1/84416803.KKGA4pSr.CA_161_2468_1.jpg


http://i.pbase.com/o6/04/463304/1/84773388.IC1Ssnw9.CA_161_3211_1_T.jpg


http://i.pbase.com/o6/04/463304/1/84835781.xLyFPGUP.84406685.IYCv6dZc.CA_161_2465_1.jpg

Havent heard anything of the sort Pule, & dont think it would happen, but it would be cool to have something like that in Joburg, I think Thryve made a concept in the Idea's thread.

that type of advertising and idea was planned for the joburg cbd @ the goverment precintc bt seeing that project has been canned ...well progress is really slow now

that type of advertising and idea was planned for the joburg cbd @ the goverment precintc bt seeing that project has been canned ...well progress is really slow now

Yeah I remember now and as Neil said these guys are flippin slow.

here's my issues with Joburg

- security, i was very upset last month when some metro police guy was busy boosting about having put a task force of twenty something odd under cover metro police task force to deal with crime in the CBD. For me it was a case of too little too late. How can we be rejoicing of just twenty something odd officers, tell me we have 300 or 400 odd officers on foot with a good chunk of them in under cover mode, then perhaps we can start smiling. Until we have a serious strategy with a well trained and highly motivated force to handle crime in the CBD, we must just forget about making any progress in this matter.

- The taxi rank in noord and bree, what a piece of shit this is. Why are the taxis parked outside bree and causing a lot of traffic on that intersection. The city should be building a multi-storey parkade that can also serve as a car-wash to enable them to park their taxis. Besides, the taxis should be on the road and not parked. Perhaps a good idea would be build an underground tunnel which will regulate the route for taxis to get in and out of the city.


- Another issue i have is with park station, when you enter park station, there is some old 1970s type parkade attendant in a cubicle in the middle of the road issuing tickets. Haven't they seen how boom gates work at Sandton city mall.? Daa? Also the bloody parking area there has been hijacked by smelly and unsightly street people who demand you pay them what looks like an extortion fee. There is water all over the place after some rain and it looks like the drains aren't working properly. Worst of all, there are 3-4 cars that look like they are stuck on the parkade and their owners have abandoned them there. And then when you enter park station, they have this tape normally used to demarcate areas in emergency or accident zones. They try to put this tape to show where people should not step during the usual daily cleaning operation. you should see this tape, it looks like its been in use for like 10 years and its been torn and tied up again and again and again. :ohno:

I have so many issues with downtown, i sometimes feel like just going to the Joburg Metro people and do this :bash: :bash: :bash:

I fee the same about you Kulani, if only Metro police would sort out their shit, then Joburg will be a better city. Taxi people are doing as they wish and they don't even fucken contributing to the tax man, while we the contributers and law abiders are targets. They need to stop calling themselves Metro Police but rather traffic officers. What are the municipality traffic officers doing? Do you see them anywhere? People commit offences infront of them as they are flippin useless. Those are the people who should be issuing traffic fines and metro police concentrating on implementing the bi-laws and reducing crime further.