guys, do you think studio apartments at botanica, at 850,000 AED are high priced? what are the best prices at Duabi Marina?

-and what about sport city apartments, is it a good investment?

what size is the studio? 2000 /sq ft seems to be the average for new launches now.

oh no, botanica for 2 k, no way.

oh no, botanica for 2 k, no way.

Saw one resale Studio in BOTANICA advertised at 2500 AED per sq ft from SHERWOODS the other day !

oh no, botanica for 2 k, no way.

i didnt say botanica specifically but said new launches in general, however not surprsied to see botanica selling for over 2000AED/SQFT.

Strange since you can pick up a completed 2 bed in the Marina or Palm for 1350 AED/SQFT. Must only be because it is a studio.

am looking to buy a 2-bed in 03 or 08. please suggest which is the best location. on 03 i am getting it at floor 6 and on 08 only upto 2 or 3rd floor.

thanks

Hi Aly, any of them is a really good choice, 03 you have the sea for yourself and 08 the whole marina is yours. Try to negotiate a higher floor, i personally have 04 and 08. Good luck :)

Any one know if Botanica site has been cleared of Habtoor builing materials yet ?

someone told me that the sign posts have gone up on the site. can anyone confirm that. Also I cannot believe that the units are selling around the 2000 sqft mark. If that is the case i might sell my units , make a small premium on it.

I was there recently until 6th March and there were no signs at all - had a good look around the plot - nothing doing so far as I could see from my last visit in December. It would be good to know if they are up. Also noticed a studio advertised in Sherwoods for AED 1,290,971 - can't believe they would be selling at that rate. Has anyone managed to sell theirs? We bought a studio and a one-bed so if these prices are being achieved we might sell the studio.

I was there recently until 6th March and there were no signs at all - had a good look around the plot - nothing doing so far as I could see from my last visit in December. It would be good to know if they are up. Also noticed a studio advertised in Sherwoods for AED 1,290,971 - can't believe they would be selling at that rate. Has anyone managed to sell theirs? We bought a studio and a one-bed so if these prices are being achieved we might sell the studio.

Dear Kingsmaite, I think the price for the studio that you mentioned is the total price for the long payment plan. I have a studio in the 17th floor with BUA 497 sqft and I want to sell it out here is the details:
Original Price= 760,550 Payable on 3 Years Payment Plan
Original Price= 1,141,146 Payable on 15 Years long term Payment Plan
Selling Price = 1,264,000 Including transfer fees on 15 Years long term Payment Plan

IF any on Interested let me know on dubaipropertynow@ yah .com

Dear Kingsmaite, I think the price for the studio that you mentioned is the total price for the long payment plan. I have a studio in the 17th floor with BUA 497 sqft and I want to sell it out here is the details:
Original Price= 760,550 Payable on 3 Years Payment Plan
Original Price= 1,141,146 Payable on 15 Years long term Payment Plan
Selling Price = 1,264,000 Including transfer fees on 15 Years long term Payment Plan

IF any on Interested let me know on dubaipropertynow@ yah .com

^^ is the payment plan transferable? I didn't think it was.

So if you have bought a unit on a long term payment plan, and you want to sell it. would the new buyer automatically be transfered to the 3 year plan?

I have not been through the process so can't say for certain. But I do remember reading somewhere that the long term payment plan is not transferable. If the property is sold then the amount outstanding will need to be paid off.
That was my understanding for the Torch anyway. Maybe Steve,Mackie or Morris have more info. If the payment plan is transferable then maybe the market will build in a premium for such aparments?? At least until the local mortgage market matures.

How exciting to have messages already! I am a newcomer to this chatroom stuff! As far as I understand it when assigning property the outstanding sum owed at that point in time is paid, and the LPP is not transferable. It makes sense not to transfer the LPP as this is too restrictive for future buyers. Not everyone will think this is a good deal. Personally we felt the LPP was an expensive option so raised the finance here in the UK and making the 6 instalments instead. But I stand to be corrected if wrong!

Whilst I am on, and this is probably abusing chat-room rules (forgive me!), I was reading the thread about the Oasis Beach being knocked down and that monstrosity of a building replacing it! This worries me just a tad because then are they thinking of knocking down all the low-rise hotels there including the Meridien? This may mean a lot of views are obscured from that side of the building, apartments, 1, 2, 3, 11 and 10. Is there a way of checking this in advance with the planning departments or is this a waste of time? I may drop an email to a friend based in Dubai who is 'in the know' about property development in Dubai. Will keep you posted.

^^ is the payment plan transferable? I didn't think it was.

It is Transferable and can be settled if the buyer is willing to pay cash

So if you have bought a unit on a long term payment plan, and you want to sell it. would the new buyer automatically be transfered to the 3 year plan?

It is Transferable and can be settled if the buyer is willing to pay cash

Mackie,

On the Torch thread you posted that you had cancelled your reserved apartments in Botanica. As I am currently looking at the development for investment can I ask why you decided to do that, and have you had to pay a penalty for pulling out losing your res fee?

You can PM me if you don't want to put your reasons in public.

YES CAN YOU PM ME AS WELL - INTERESTED TO HEAR WHY.

I have been reading the threads on Botanica, The Point, The Torch, Bay Central to get a feel for DS/SP... hmmm ... interesting reading. We bought a studio and a 1-bed in Botanica. This has made me feel less confident in DS/SP.

I would be interested to hear privately about the possible class action re The Torch's obstructed views and how that progresses from here - can you keep me posted? Ta

Hi, just to let you guys know, that the 15yr Payment Plan IS transferrable on any re-sale, just spoke to Select Property.

I think 15 yr is a realistic time till the completion of Botanica!!

I think 15 yr is a realistic time till the completion of Botanica!!

Glad someone else posted it! :lol:

Won't Escrow + RERA's requirements help speed up completion ?

Won't Escrow + RERA's requirements help speed up completion ?

Escrow requirements are that you start work within 6 months of marketing, but does escrow/rera say that you need to complete by a certain time?

Can anyone confirm if RERA imposes penalties for slow progress/late completion???

I don't want to get anyone's hopes up yet but........

I sent SP an email last week inquiring about the planned start date for the Botanica based upon the contractual finish date of Sept/2010. I also asked about who would receive the interest income on the millions of dirhams in interest payments from those deposits sitting in an escrow account for years.

I received a phone call from my "account manager" who told me the site clearing would begin at the "end of the month" followed by "shoring work" thereafter. She also mentioned that the escrow accounts were individual (1 account for each apartment as opposed to one account for the entire building) and the interest income was used to offset the fees to maintain the accounts.

I sort of thought "ya, right.....heard this one before" and was planning my next call to them in May to find out why things hadn't started. Imagine my surprise when I was by the site yesterday and there was a front end loader and dump truck removing misc building rubbish from the site (chunks of concrete, re-bar, etc).

Is is possible they have gotten their act together after the Point/Torch?Bay Central and will actually get this one done on time? Maybe too much to ask but when I mentioned to her that SP was gaining something of a "DAMAC" reputation around Dubai for their promises and lack of delivery, she seemed very concerned and told me she would pass it along to the director. Maybe they were wondering why the RAK development was not selling quite as quickly as they first assumed it would.

Anyway, take if for what it's worth. I guess only time will tell if they have gotten their act together.

P.S. Select Properties: I might be interested in one of those RAK units if you really have gotten your act together!

I'm not sure The "Damac" analogy is valid here at all. Firstly SP have launched five projects now: Torch, Point, Bay Central, Botanica and Pacific. Construction has started on three of these so that's 60% of projects under construction, way ahead of Damac percentage wise. Also SP have not cancelled any projects and had a run in with RERA so any comparison with Damac is totally unfair. And......... SP have escrow accounts in place for ALL their developments..

Dune - when the construction sign appears can you do a photo of ot for the forum that would be great - yes despite delays which early investors are paying for (although price psf was less) - SP seem to be getiing on with jobs now - can't wait for BOTANICA Nice tower and amazing location next to Dubai Promenade, Grosvenor House, Infinity etc etc

I used the DAMAC analogy somewhat tongue in cheek.

SP are no where near as bad as DAMAC but I wanted to impress upon her that their reputation is somewhat "less than steller" amongst the investors in Dubai.

They need to get this one right in order to gain back a little bit of confidence in my opinion.

I'm by the site a least 3-4 times/week. Will post pics when I see something interesting taking place Paul. Cheers

Great that construction of Botanica is starting already !

Crane topped out from second day what do u think lol

:) They are complying with RERA, starting constuction within 6 months of selling.

I would expect SP to start construction now as all of Botanica is sold out.

I would expect SP to start construction now as all of Botanica is sold out.

Is that the criterea for starting?

Yes

So there must be some other problem possibly with design not complete or contractor not signed up :dunno:

Have they not informed the investors of when the piling is expected to start?

The thing I love about Dubai, everyone is so sure about the completion date but no one knows the start date :lol:

^^ Site clearing work has already begun and shoring work is due to start as soon as this is complete.

Casadubai are selling complete floors of this building @ a small premium and with Guaranteed rental income--------- -->:runaway:

^^ Site clearing work has already begun and shoring work is due to start as soon as this is complete.

RERA :master::master::master::angel1:

Does anyone have any latest photos of the Botanica site?

As Steve mentioned they have started the plot clearance which should be finished around September.

15/May/2008

Botanica

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/9987/imresolt110ks6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

As Steve mentioned they have started the plot clearance which should be finished around September.

PLOT Looks cleared now on IMRE'S pics are they soil testing as well now

Still early days,but this project may actually complete on time...fingers crossed...

Hi Guys, any re-sales, and at what prices, I may be interested in a part exchange with my completed 1 bedroom in Time Place valued between AED 1.4 - 1.7. and a 2/3 Bed in Botanica, or possibly other unfinished apartments - any takers??

Advertising property for sale is not allowed on SSC. :ohno:

Can a mod please remove the above post .

Ben40, have you been up the Irish village again :nuts:

Why would anyone want to px a completed unit with rental income for a project with a long way to go. I'm suspicious of your motives, are you trying to sell your DS investments by projecting an element of apparent desire for DS/SP products?

Ben40, have you been up the Irish village again :nuts:

Why would anyone want to px a completed unit with rental income for a project with a long way to go. I'm suspicious of your motives, are you trying to sell your DS investments by projecting an element of apparent desire for DS/SP products?
you old sceptic TB - shame about "GERS" i was cheering for them

^^ I still cheer for them but their season is fecked now. Played today and drew. play on Monday night and again on Thursday night then cup final on Saturday. Absolute bollocks as the players are now so shattered I think I could put together a boys team that would atleast hold them to a draw.

Well done SFA, you managed to stop Rangers from doing the quadruple, you bunch of fannies.

Just checked Bay Central progress and noted that piling has been ongoing for over 1 year now. Does not bode well for here as it has not even started piling. DS/SP projects are ALL projecting 2 years late.

Advertising property for sale is not allowed on SSC. :ohno:

Can a mod please remove the above post .

Get a life!

Ben, I'm with Morris on this. If everyone starts trading on SSC - the point of the site will be lost - it'll be like f*****g e-bay!

.....mind you if anyone will offer me a Fisher Price Wendy House for my Marina Facing on the 44th I might be up for it!

Get a life!

Stop acting like a twat !!

SP have launched Villas at Botanica - nice designs - looking over marina channels
I think

Paul, where did you get this information from? I could not find anything about the Villas at Botanica on the SP web site.

Paul, where did you get this information from? I could not find anything about the Villas at Botanica on the SP web site.
Hi -- it is on there -- www.dubaiselect.com click on BOTANICA - otherwise them a call before they are sold - should be nice location - in what i think will be iconic and very popular tower just on entarnce to DM, DP and not far from the BUDDHA Bar ! (no i don't work for DS befroe someone says !) I just like tower designs and locations
Anybody got any pics of BOTANICA site currently - a site board would be nice ?

Construction was supposed to have started in April to comply with RERA's escrow account regulations (apparently construction needs to begin within 6 months of approval which was given in October). We are now in June?

The site had been cleared but now has piles of rubbish on again and still not even a project board.

It would be out of character for DS to complete ON TIME.
Besides DS has more important things to worry about
..(ie. the launch of new projects)
Seems like everything is on track for a 2011 completion !!!:bash:

As usual, Select have dropped interest in this project now that it has been launched and sold. They are now concentrating on new sites so they can launch and sell them. They are also promoting themselves as the biggest private developer, in recent articles.

Just what Dubai could do without, another Damac!

In your dreams mate! :lol:

9 minutes Naz!! :applause:... :D

Don't worry mate they'll eat humble pie in the end; - they'll have so many sites on the go they'll be forced to offer you a job!!

I was at the Botanica site yesterday and it appears they are close to starting the ground prep.

No sign board yet; will advise when it comes up.

Cheers.


http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3306/botanic1xh7.th.jpg (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=botanic1xh7.jpg)

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/135/botanica2ub2.th.jpg (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=botanica2ub2.jpg)

Thanks for the update Dune.............hope you don't mind I've made the pics a litle bigger.

http://i27.tinypic.com/zl2hw3.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/zx3zur.jpg

Thanks, Morrismarina........to date my technical abilities only extend to getting the pics on the site. :lol:

I used ImageShack to host them and then used their "for message boards" setting. Could you tell me how you took my pics and and put them directly onto SCC so my future pics will be of the same size?

Some good work at the site this week; will try to get a few update pics today or tomorrow. Also DS sent out the 1st construction update email several days ago to purchasers.

Hi Dune

I find www.tinypic.com is the best upload site. You need to upload your pics to there and then simply copy and paste the url address which after uploading shows in the section for "message boards" into your post. (DO NOT click on the little yellow "photo" icon on SSC - just as I say simply copy and paste the url address into your post, it's that easy.). Make sure you include the [url] bit at either side of the address, don't delete it or your pics will not show on SSC.

I find tinypic.com uploads the pics in a large size. (seems imageshack only loads really small pics).

Any problems send me a PM.

I was at the Botanica site yesterday and it appears they are close to starting the ground prep.

No sign board yet; will advise when it comes up.

Cheers.


http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3306/botanic1xh7.th.jpg (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=botanic1xh7.jpg)

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/135/botanica2ub2.th.jpg (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=botanica2ub2.jpg)

New to this - briliant information all round on SSC though

Botanica i think is one of best sites in Marina close to GH for eating and drinking and Le Meridian beach club fro swimmin ! (Habtor Tower next door to buy a Ferrari - I can dream)

I'm sorted for livin ! thankyou in 2 1/2 years time

NIce to see we are only few months behind schdeule Jan 2011 No problem

NIce to see we are only few months behind schdeule Jan 2011 No problem

:lol::lol::lol: Don't worry it will get to years quickly :lol::lol::lol:

I was by the Botanica site today and took the following pictures.

Not much appears to be going on as it was during the 1:00-3:00 pm mid-day break period but there definately appears to be some good initial progress taking place.

[IMG]http://i31.tinypic.com/14v5mp2.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/15f0ifp.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/2h81pus.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/ngd5j5.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/23wtav.jpg


Thanks for the upload lesson Morrismarina; I think I have it figured out now. Unfortunately uploading pictures to SCC via TinyPic is like watching paint dry.......the joys of "broadband" in Dubai.

999bbb:

New to this - briliant information all round on SSC though

Botanica i think is one of best sites in Marina close to GH for eating and drinking and Le Meridian beach club fro swimmin ! (Habtor Tower next door to buy a Ferrari - I can dream)

I'm sorted for livin ! thankyou in 2 1/2 years time

NIce to see we are only few months behind schdeule Jan 2011 No problem

I think Al-Tayer has the Ferrari franchise locked up in Dubai........you may have to settle for either a Bentley or an Aston Martin when you step out of the Botanica to do a little "local" car shopping :lol:

Great news Zublin are on site so looks like piling about to start now. :banana:

Thanks for your pictures Dune :cheers:

999bbb:



I think Al-Tayer has the Ferrari franchise locked up in Dubai........you may have to settle for either a Bentley or an Aston Martin when you step out of the Botanica to do a little "local" car shopping :lol:

Thanks for pics Dune brilliant news

- got a Ferrari - don't like Bentley or Aston but Maserati GT coupe looking good - might swap the Ferrari for that yet

One thing we are missing nearby though -- petrol stations must be all of 3 miles away !

25/July/2008

Botanica

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4808/imresolt115gh4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/126/imresolt116rx0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/2847/imresolt117ji1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Thanks IMRE - nice to see you back with internet -- is there anything going on with the actual site at Botanica ?

It's 42 floors, edit title !!

http://i34.tinypic.com/1s1et5.jpg


http://i35.tinypic.com/118zin8.jpg

well it looks like there is progress on this one.. it's good to see another project on the move ..

hear hear.

well it looks like there is progress on this one.. it's good to see another project on the move ..

Any pictures anyone ?

Still piling, they are diong about 4 a day working continually into the early evening, not too sure if that is a good rate or not. The cages look from my balcony at the GH about 40 feet long.

Thanks to CharlieBigPotaoes!

http://i35.tinypic.com/333jus9.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/2py9auo.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/256qziw.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/2agw39g.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/2uz2ryo.jpg

Such a small plot, will make it difficult when they start construction.

Hi everyone

Have been reading the threads on all SP developments with interest. We have 2 apartments in Botanica.

I just wondered what other people felt about the letter that SP has just sent out regarding paying a 1% registration fee within 60 days of the new law 13 dated 14th aug 2008. This now means that as buyers we will have to pay 1% now and then another 1% if we sell before or after completion. It was historically the case that we would only pay the 1% on completion, so in reality this means we all have to find another 1% if planning to flip before completion. Have I got this right?

I guess we have to bite the bullet and cough up ....

whats the first picture of?

Thanks to DXBGO

http://lh5.ggpht.com/james.gupta91/SOTxPzTZxKI/AAAAAAAAAqU/bSURmaPv0vs/s640/Dubai%20Oct%2008%20100.JPG

Pictures on SP members update show that shore piling has been completed on 3 sides -- and some excavation is taking place,tried to copy and paste link but failed sorry

Here are the pictures
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5241/b3vt2.th.png (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b3vt2.png)http://img150.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/2293/b2ca8.th.png (http://img379.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b2ca8.png)http://img379.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9917/b1go9.th.png (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b1go9.png)http://img297.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2716/b4jn5.th.png (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b4jn5.png)http://img297.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1228/b5vm6.th.png (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b5vm6.png)http://img100.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Thanks v much

Thank you for the pictures... Some progress at last...

18/10/08
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_01.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_02.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_03.jpghttp://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_04.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_05.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_06.jpg

regards,
Paul

18/10/08
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_01.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_02.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_03.jpghttp://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_04.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_05.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_06.jpg

regards,
Paul
Paul -I can't read can you reposet url's

Heres the links to the pictures...
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_01.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_02.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_03.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_04.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_05.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_06.jpg

regards,
Paul

Heres the links to the pictures...
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_01.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_02.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_03.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_04.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_05.jpg
http://www.tigerzilla.com/images/Botanica_DubaiMarina_06.jpg

regards,
Paul

Thanks very much things are moving on now

It has taken SP 1 year exactly from the launch of the project to start doing some actual ground / excavation work on the plot...

It has taken SP 1 year exactly from the launch of the project to start doing some actual ground / excavation work on the plot...Good Picture updates to SP Botanica owners this week can anyone post them i haven't got te tech. knowledge

http://i37.tinypic.com/20zphdj.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/xfu3k7.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/2uivlmw.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/2e31u1e.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/qoxesp.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/zvg46.jpg

True Blue Since I value your opinon what do think is realistic completion date ? is Oct 2010 realistic or a year later?
BTW thanks for the pics Dune

^^ Oct 2011 under normal circumstances.

DS/SP/DCE mix is not normal circumstances in terms of construction premier league.

DCE are making Emaar look like amatures on Park Island and The Quays. Perhaps DS/SP should try a different contractor here.

^^ Oct 2011 under normal circumstances.

DS/SP/DCE mix is not normal circumstances in terms of construction premier league.

DCE are making Emaar look like amatures on Park Island and The Quays. Perhaps DS/SP should try a different contractor here.

:lol::lol:

What have you been drinking last night, a few good jokes this morning :cheers:

^^ Last night AND the night before, it's sportman's dinners season again :nuts:

Given the current global economic climate where banks are not lending to anyone, I think if you have purchased Botanica apt with the 15yr LPP, it should help keep prices stable, I have seen a couple of distress sales on Gulf News where sellers are selling their botanica apartments at a mere 100k premium!

I would say hold on to these if you can, when the short-term panic flippers are out, you will get the long term players in and stable prices, especially for quality projects like this one.

Anybody wants to bet when DCE shows up on site? Probably their equipment got stuck in traffic....:nuts: :nuts:

I hope they start soon so that we'll be able to see something growing. ;o)

Anybody wants to bet when DCE shows up on site? Probably their equipment got stuck in traffic....:nuts: :nuts:

I hope they start soon so that we'll be able to see something growing. ;o)

Don´t bet on DCE. First of all a couple foundation piles needs to be installed before anything happens on the upper structure.
See you then, before xmass 2009:ohno:

Some resales in property weekly @ AED2500/ft2 complete 2009...:nuts:

Let's see if they can start by then:lol:

Monday 8th December;

Soil testing;
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7285/p1010045yy1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8227/p1010046ft4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Looks like Zublin only completed the shoring then left the site.

Main construction unlikely to start before 2010.

If you don't mind high density living then this is the one to go for.

HOWEVER!!!

Have a close look at the payment plan before you sign. 50% of your money will be required before they start the construction. In the usual style of DS you will be required to pay 90% of the investment by November 2009. Going by their current track record that means 90% paid and 10% constructed. You do the maths!

This is what I said in Jan 2008, anyone heed the warning?

Always best to take the 15 year plan with select investments, also makes them easier to sell on, especially in current times.

^^Who would buy something that is not moving LPP or not?

I am angry about SP/DS and I don't even own anything. They must be causing no end of grief and worry to investors with this total incapable developer act.

Contract completion date is Sept 2010 for this one. Hopefully they will start construction Jan 09. It is sold out.

Contract completion date is Sept 2010 for this one. Hopefully they will start construction Jan 09. It is sold out.

Impossible, there is no piles installed yet, they are just doing the soil testing now. Have another look back through this thread you will see only the shoring is done, nothing else.

Construction will not start before Jan 2010.

Sorry, I meant to say piling should start Jan 09

The soil test data has to be compiled and sent to the engineer who will package together with the building loadings, if they have been done yet, and submit to the Clients rep. Then the package is issued to the piling contractors for pricing, returned and analysed for compliance. Piling contractor appointed and then mobilised to site.

Do you still think they can turn this around in 1 month or so?

Check BC post #178, Soil testing commenced Dec 06 and in Dec 08 they still haven't started the construction of the structure. 2 years!!!!!!!!

As usual I am guilty of being an optomist by stating 1 year from soil testing to construction but the DS track record suggests it could be 2 years. Construction will be another 30 months at best.

I would not put my money on this being finished before mid 2013.

^^ BS has other issues, I don't think you can apply the same logic to this project.

How many plates can they spin at once then Steve?

They are developing a track record now, the lack of which has protected them before.

How many plates can they spin at once then Steve?

They are developing a track record now, the lack of which has protected them before.

TB this is a common problem amongst all developers in Dubai not just SP. On the positive side regarding SP we will see Point handover in 09 and hopefully Torch end of 2010.

Worth looking into;

....Rera's regulations state that investors who have paid over 20% of a property's total value can halt payments if the developer has yet to begin construction, but this does not apply if construction has already started.

http://www.ameinfo.com/179135.html

Monday 8th December;

Soil testing;

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7285/p1010045yy1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Results: Wet!

Who is going to be the contractor? I heard about TAV Construction. Any idea?

saw the site today, still swimming pool

Hey TB, did you get any kind of confirmation on that statement mentioned in your comment the 23rd?

Is it still a swimming pool at the site?

Is it still a swimming pool at the site?

Have a look at post 3663 on the Dubai Marina thread for "sale's" picture, its still a green pool !

Is it still a swimming pool at the site?

I drove by the site today and it is still a swimming pool.

They don't seem to be in any hurry to remedy the situation as the gates were locked and no one was on-site (Thursday; full work day with the surrounding projects going 100%).

It will be interesting to see the spin on the next "monthly update".

Who is going to be the contractor? I heard about TAV Construction. Any idea?


Name CIVILCO says anything to you?

Name CIVILCO says anything to you?

CIVILCO is from Abu Dhabi and is good

better than DCE but not too fast.

Would be a surprise if SP hired a company that can produce good fast work. A company like NASA Multiplex, Al Naboodah or Arabtec.

SP have sold their off plans at top of the market rates but go on to hire cheap nasty contractors. Not good strategy if you want to maintain a high profile business. But good business if you want to maintain a high profit strategy.

^^
They are certainly not in a position to hire a good construction company, and strongly believe developing apartments on the cheap is their utmost objective.
One of the many reasons, i think BC and the others would have ordinary finishing.

They have invested aggressively in the last two years in the UAE, and due to current economic downturn must be mounting significant losses from the world Acquitania projects to others in Ras Al Khaimah.

Did anybody hear anything about a new schedule for Botanica??? Apparantly SP are giving payment breaks on other of their developments. Wouldn't that be appropiate on Botanica too due to the progress (or lack of) we have witnessed the latest months?

Share your knowledge.

We have not made the December 08 payment (20%) on the SPP on Botanica and no-one has chased us from Select. Am slightly suspicious that something may be afoot as it is unlike them not to chase payments. This RERA rule that everyone is talking about, i.e. that if you have paid more than 20% and still there is no contsruction then buyers may have a case not to pay further instalments, has anyone managed to achieve a payment deferral on Botanica? Would be interested to hear your views.

SP have said the new law RULE hasnt been placed yet..

How many plates can they spin at once then Steve?

They are developing a track record now, the lack of which has protected them before.

I think that SP (and other developers) consistently delay construction so that they can get quick repayment of their outlay on land and other start up costs quickly from early investor payments before spending on piling etc. The rest of investor payments then fund construction with SP funding none. This allows them then to buy more land and repeat the cycle. The end result is SP having several developments running at same time without massive financial investment by them. Smart from their point of view.

This however creates a lot of stress and problems for investors when delivery is 2/3/4 years late. Easier to put up when values are increasing month on month. Less so in a credit crunch when those that buy on a tight budget run into cashflow problems and the option of selling becomes more difficult.

Looks like this approach by developers will not be possible in future with recent RERA annoucements as developers will have to be well capitalised to start construction before they can start selling.

I assume SP will now see that ability to deliver is now be critical to their long term future. Those that can't do not have a future because they won't be able to raise the necessary finance to start construction before they can start selling and investors won't buy anyway.

Thank you for yor replies.

It is worrying though that nobody has a clear understanding of the situation. SP does not reply to enquiries. Nothing happens at site.

To send in a contractor would restore a little faith I would say.

Anybody knows the terms for releasing money from their Escrow account?

Does anyone know if you can delay payment if you are on the Lengthy Payment Plan?

regards,
Paul

Does anyone know if you can delay payment if you are on the Lengthy Payment Plan?

regards,
Paul
Would doubt it unless SP cancel the build

delete

delete

I Visited the site today, still a pool of water no signs of work on the site.

Great(!) how long does this "Soil-Testing" take? Any ideas anyone?

^^How do you know this is the problem?

There are a lot of other things needed before construction can start. A detailed design, Specification, foundation design (soil test dependant) pricing documents/ bill of quantities, a tender submission, approval from DM, to name but a few.

Then there is the shoring temp works design that is unique to SP projects which has something to do with the Infinity accident. Apparently this is to stop the site from being flooded,.........oops! too late :laugh:

Has anybody got the construction update this year from SP? Although there will be nothing much in it, but they should still tell us whats happening!

Paul.

expatriates.com

Region: Dubai (Dubai Marina)

Description: Original Price: AED 1,070,412
Selling Price: AED 1,300,000

Bedrooms: 1
Size: 781 sqft
Floor: 8
View: Marina View
Completion Date: Sept-2010

Amount Paid to date: AED362,710.
Purchased with 15yr Payment Plan: AED20,442 payable every 3 months.

Excellent opportunity to purchase a direct resale 781 sq ft 1-bed apartment at the exclusive Botanica Tower in Dubai Marina. Price includes parking, fully fitted kitchen and bathrooms with a Sky Garden on the 22nd Floor.

expatriates.com

Region: Dubai (Dubai Marina)

Description: Original Price: AED 1,070,412
Selling Price: AED 1,300,000

Bedrooms: 1
Size: 781 sqft
Floor: 8
View: Marina View
Completion Date: Sept-2010

Amount Paid to date: AED362,710.
Purchased with 15yr Payment Plan: AED20,442 payable every 3 months.

Excellent opportunity to purchase a direct resale 781 sq ft 1-bed apartment at the exclusive Botanica Tower in Dubai Marina. Price includes parking, fully fitted kitchen and bathrooms with a Sky Garden on the 22nd Floor.

Not a chance at that price IMHO - 3 years til completion at this rate - is it still swimming pool ?

"Exclusive" Botanica:ohno::lol:

They will take anyones money, if Osama Bin Laden wanted 10 they would send a Rolls Royce to his cave to collect the cheque.:laugh:

Everything is non status, which means "no questions asked", how exclusive is that?

"Exclusive" Botanica:ohno::lol:

They will take anyones money, if Osama Bin Laden wanted 10 they would send a Rolls Royce to his cave to collect the cheque.:laugh:

Everything is non status, which means "no questions asked", how exclusive is that?

My God......you really are twisted and bitter about SG turning you down for that job aren't you ? Get over it, move on, perhaps it was simply due to the other candidates having a more positive outlook at the interview. Look on the bright side, you've had a couple of years at home allowing you to read and comment on SSC all day, so life hasn't treated you so bad after all. :)

My God......you really are twisted and bitter about SG turning you down for that job aren't you ? Get over it, move on, perhaps it was simply due to the other candidates having a more positive outlook at the interview. Look on the bright side, you've had a couple of years at home allowing you to read and comment on SSC all day, so life hasn't treated you so bad after all. :)

Welcome back Morris ... you are certainly one of the prime candidates with a more positive outlook on the future of SG/DS and their operations. Companies slashing jobs is in fashion, hope u have a plan B.

^^Standard Morrismarina response to defend and support his boss.

You have probably told this lie about the job so many times now you must believe it yourself.

So tell us all Morris, when do the owners get their keys for this one?

^^Standard Morrismarina response to defend and support his boss.

How many times have I heard this shit........try thinking of something new to say, it's getting very boring again.

I wasn't trying to defend SP just amazed at the constant obsession you have with bashing SP, even so far as commenting on their use of "exclusive". All developers use these words, look at Damac, never hear you bashing them........or any other developer come to think of it.......just SP all the time. Down the road from me in the UK are some some new build apartments, advertised as "luxury" and the little detached houses alongside are "executive". It's standard wordplay in the property game. Look TB you really are a crazy, disturbed Scotchman. What the hell is going on in that brain of yours ?? It's certainly unbalanced and obesssional to the point that I'd class you now as a complete psycho !!

Anyway back to Botanica. Here's my honest opinion. The lack of progress here is a disgrace. Compare it with the Torch which as we know is going to be delivered late. Torch was launched in June'05 and main bearing piling started Feb'06 some 8 months later. Botanica was launched Nov'07 and we're now 15 months on and no sign of any piling yet. It's is a complete and utter mortification. Christ knows what investors must be thinking. Certainly glad I didn't buy here, coping with the slow of progress with BC is bad enough, but at least there is some.

From what I understand this tower is completely sold out. SG are sitting on their piles of cash once again. Let's hope RERA step in here very soon to sort things out. SG are taking investors for a ride here. Typical SG tactics. I doubt anybody buying here would do so again from SG. Evident to all that they're just in the property game for the short term now and don't care about their reputation.

There you go TB and Buster.........I'm sure my boss is going to be more than happy with that. :lol:

nb. bashing them for using "exclusive" isn't on though......that's just obessional.

How many times have I heard this shit........try thinking of something new to say, it's getting very boring again.

I wasn't trying to defend SP just amazed at the constant obsession you have with bashing SP, even so far as commenting on their use of "exclusive". All developers use these words, look at Damac, never hear you bashing them........or any other developer come to think of it.......just SP all the time. Down the road from me in the UK are some some new build apartments, advertised as "luxury" and the little detached houses alongside are "executive". It's standard wordplay in the property game. Look TB you really are a crazy, disturbed Scotchman. What the hell is going on in that brain of yours ?? It's certainly unbalanced and obesssional to the point that I'd class you now as a complete psycho !!

Anyway back to Botanica. Here's my honest opinion. The lack of progress here is a disgrace. Compare it with the Torch which as we know is going to be delivered late. Torch was launched in June'05 and main bearing piling started Feb'06 some 8 months later. Botanica was launched Nov'07 and we're now 15 months on and no sign of any piling yet. It's is a complete and utter mortification. Christ knows what investors must be thinking. Certainly glad I didn't buy here, coping with the slow of progress with BC is bad enough, but at least there is some.

From what I understand this tower is completely sold out. SG are sitting on their piles of cash once again. Let's hope RERA step in here very soon to sort things out. SG are taking investors for a ride here. Typical SG tactics. I doubt anybody buying here would do so again from SG. Evident to all that they're just in the property game for the short term now and don't care about their reputation.

There you go TB and Buster.........I'm sure my boss is going to be more than happy with that. :lol:

Wrong side of the bed today?

Only SG? You have not got a clue to where SP stop and SG start :)

Following the new policy of shifting all the blame to SG........... Back in line for a bonus Morris, well done :banana:

Wrong side of the bed today?

Only SG? You have not got a clue to where SP stop and SG start :)

Following the new policy of shifting all the blame to SG........... Back in line for a bonus Morris, well done :banana:

SG are the developer and SP are the selling agents.......it's simple Mackie. They use the common name "Select" to misrepresent and confuse the issue and pretent when it suits them that they are one and the same. SP are now distancing themseves from SG.

Aaaaaaaaaaah

***

Don't you get fed up of having a brown nose Mackie.........surely licking TB's arse all the time must be wearing you down by now ??

I like him and I know that he is more than qualified enough to comment. Never brownnosed to anyone in my life and not about to start now.

Listen, read and learn from people who know better. TB is one of them and you would be a fool if you do not know that by now. :cheers:

I like him and I know that he is more than qualified enough to comment. Never brownnosed to anyone in my life and not about to start now.

Listen, read and learn from people who know better. TB is one of them and you would be a fool if you do not know that by now. :cheers:

Apologies Mackie I've removed my post, I guess I was a bit harsh mate. :hug:

Apologies Mackie I've removed my post, I guess I was a bit harsh mate. :hug:

You know I love you too and love your banter with TB :hug:

Don't apologise Morris - you tell it like it is mate!

Have a look at Dorra Bay - it'll warm your heart to see that TB can actually level some - albeit pretty low level and muted - negativity in Cayan's direction; - well just a bit! He couldn't really get out of it though as there were about 10 big f**k off photos laying out the faults in the previous post. Still it looks as though he's going to don his cape again and go out there and sort it all out!

^^:)

Yes I admit, he goes on a bit about the Jewels and Dorra bay but we give him enough stick about the A$$ end of the Marina :lol:

I myself had 3 units reserved here and luckily, I cancelled them after visiting Dubai to check on the Torch progress and a couple of private chats with some nice guys from DCE and the other contractor, Al Hamad I think their name was :cheers:

^^:)
I myself had 3 units reserved here and luckily, I cancelled them after visiting Dubai to check on the Torch progress and a couple of private chats with some nice guys from DCE and the other contractor, Al Hamad I think their name was :cheers:


Smart move Mackie I remember this well, good job you cancelled, you'd be at your wits end with this Botanica farce. I considered it but went for La Hoya Bay in Rak instead. We clearly see that SG/SP are getting later and later in starting their projects. They have clearly have no concern about massive delays here as they'll earn more bucks from the interest and don't give a toss about the investors. Very silly as if they want to remain in the UAE as developers they will need repeat business and a bad name soon gets around. All is not lost though if they can pull this back and on track soon, but any goodwill must be evaporating rapidly now.

How many times have I heard this shit........try thinking of something new to say, it's getting very boring again.

I wasn't trying to defend SP just amazed at the constant obsession you have with bashing SP, even so far as commenting on their use of "exclusive". All developers use these words, look at Damac, never hear you bashing them........or any other developer come to think of it.......just SP all the time. Down the road from me in the UK are some some new build apartments, advertised as "luxury" and the little detached houses alongside are "executive". It's standard wordplay in the property game. Look TB you really are a crazy, disturbed Scotchman. What the hell is going on in that brain of yours ?? It's certainly unbalanced and obesssional to the point that I'd class you now as a complete psycho !!
Anyway back to Botanica. Here's my honest opinion. The lack of progress here is a disgrace. Compare it with the Torch which as we know is going to be delivered late. Torch was launched in June'05 and main bearing piling started Feb'06 some 8 months later. Botanica was launched Nov'07 and we're now 15 months on and no sign of any piling yet. It's is a complete and utter mortification. Christ knows what investors must be thinking. Certainly glad I didn't buy here, coping with the slow of progress with BC is bad enough, but at least there is some.

From what I understand this tower is completely sold out. SG are sitting on their piles of cash once again. Let's hope RERA step in here very soon to sort things out. SG are taking investors for a ride here. Typical SG tactics. I doubt anybody buying here would do so again from SG. Evident to all that they're just in the property game for the short term now and don't care about their reputation.

There you go TB and Buster.........I'm sure my boss is going to be more than happy with that. :lol:

nb. bashing them for using "exclusive" isn't on though......that's just obessional.

Steady now!! Don't want you dissappearing to the safe room again, we all missed you none more than me:lol:

One of the reasons I have posted the odd adverse comment on this thread is that I feel that this is a prime example of a development that has killed the off plan market stone dead. People have lost trust in Dubai's developers to progress and complete quality developments. Yes Select are capable of resales to unsuspecting would be investors but they only stay happy for a short period.

As noted by others, I have been having a go at Cayan recently for reasons that you have still to experience. The next stage is dealing with the servicing and maintenance of a completed building. All new ground for Cayan and they are going through the learning process. I don't think Select will be any better.

Wow Weeee

Steady now!! Don't want you dissappearing to the safe room again, we all missed you none more than me:lol:

One of the reasons I have posted the odd adverse comment on this thread is that I feel that this is a prime example of a development that has killed the off plan market stone dead. People have lost trust in Dubai's developers to progress and complete quality developments. Yes Select are capable of resales to unsuspecting would be investors but they only stay happy for a short period.

As noted by others, I have been having a go at Cayan recently for reasons that you have still to experience. The next stage is dealing with the servicing and maintenance of a completed building. All new ground for Cayan and they are going through the learning process. I don't think Select will be any better.

I can see where you're comming from but to start having a go at SG/SP because they mention the word "exclusive" is taking things completely off the scale and into outer space.
I totally agree that developments such as Botanica where investors are clearly being ripped off with no work of any substance being done after 15 months, is only serving to put further nails into the Dubai off-plan property sector, if that's possible.
What I've always found strange though is that you only single out Select for this criticism and other developer's projects equally delayed, remain competely unscathed. I've never understood this and that's where it's clear you have an obsession in solely targetting Select. If it's not being turned down for the SG job then what is it ?? :dunno:

I had the pleasure of meeting Morris recently for the first time when we met SP (along with MOAF). We had a detailed discussion with them for about two hours in the Midlands.

Previously on the BC thread I had accused Morris of being an employee of SP. How wrong could I be. He give them a fair old grilling and had a long list of prepared points to make. However he wasn't quite as blunt with them as me. I am surprised how blunt he is on this forum. Reckon Mackie and TB are out to just wind him up.

expatriates.com

Region: Dubai (Dubai Marina)

Description: Original Price: AED 1,070,412
Selling Price: AED 1,300,000

Bedrooms: 1
Size: 781 sqft
Floor: 8
View: Marina View
Completion Date: Sept-2010

Amount Paid to date: AED362,710.
Purchased with 15yr Payment Plan: AED20,442 payable every 3 months.

Excellent opportunity to purchase a direct resale 781 sq ft 1-bed apartment at the exclusive Botanica Tower in Dubai Marina. Price includes parking, fully fitted kitchen and bathrooms with a Sky Garden on the 22nd Floor.

This is a cheapest price I have seen a 1-Bed go for in this tower. Other people are still trying to sell for 1.8million!!!!

Paul.

Reckon Mackie and TB are out to just wind him up.

Yeah.....and I fall for it every time..... I never learn !!! :lol:

However he wasn't quite as blunt with them as me. I am surprised how blunt he is on this forum. Reckon Mackie and TB are out to just wind him up.

I thought I was very blunt on some points Slowhand ?? But you were an absolute star. :banana:

I think my comments about Botanica are valid though. I tell it like it is and I'd tell Giles Beswick the same to his face. How can I defend progress like this ??

I was thinking again about this tower. Torch piling was all finished in October 2006 some 16 months after launch. If SG/SP get the piling all done in the next month then Botanica will be on a par with TT......which is impossible of course. No doubt it's all due to the lack or permissions/approvals etc. and nothing remotely connected with any intentional delay on the part of developer. The concern is that the developer here still wants their cash whether any work is done or not which puts investors under severe strain in some cases. This has been the issue but to a less extent on earlier SP projects, but even me as a one time flag waver for Select can see this is now being taken way too far.

Thank God RERA going forward are linking payments to construction progress in future.......let's hope this happens sooner rather than later with this development.

We have just made the December 08 payment (SPP) somewhat belatedly and have now put down 50% on 2 apartments in Botanica. We are lodging a complaint with RERA and also Giles Beswick, requesting that they give a delay on the payment schedule. It's totally unacceptable to have to pay so much upfront with zero happening on site. If we all got together to mount pressure on SP to delay payments we may stand a better chance of succeeding rather than a single lone voice.

Any ideas anyone?

Haven't bought here myself but it is a dangerous position to be in when you're on a payment plan not linked to construction and nothing is happening. Very scarey indeed. It's completely open-ended. I'm in this position with Bay Central.
Filing a complaint with RERA is the best action to take IMO. It's only RERA that can pull this developer into line and force payment holidays.......or even a refund of payments made if they are not in line with progress. Clearly this is the case here. We've had one payment holiday with BC which puts the payment back a quarter, but hardly enough to help, just a token gesture. Don't be fooled either by revised SP construction schedules. the one we received for BC was a complete load of rubbish and a joke - I told Giles Beswick this. RERA complaint..........the only way to go.

I had the pleasure of meeting Morris recently for the first time when we met SP (along with MOAF). We had a detailed discussion with them for about two hours in the Midlands.

Previously on the BC thread I had accused Morris of being an employee of SP. How wrong could I be. He give them a fair old grilling and had a long list of prepared points to make. However he wasn't quite as blunt with them as me. I am surprised how blunt he is on this forum. Reckon Mackie and TB are out to just wind him up.

It's all an act. I see Morris every Saturday in Wilmslow, I recon he sells apartments for them to his rich customers in the bank and comes up in the weekend to settle up :):cheers: Now you know the truth :banana:

It's all an act. I see Morris every Saturday in Wilmslow, I recon he sells apartments for them to his rich customers in the bank and comes up in the weekend to settle up :):cheers: Now you know the truth :banana:

:hilarious

Lovely

50% paid out by investors and zero progress, Oh dear! That won't be such a problem to Morris with his big banking sector bonus but to the ordinary guy on the street like me, that is devastating.

Glad I didn't put my money in any exclusive projects..:runaway:

Better go and look at the nice bridge pictures at Dorrabay. :)

^^
Indeed - 50% and counting and zero progress. Same story with every one of their developments. A bloody disgrace SG

Haven't bought here myself but it is a dangerous position to be in when you're on a payment plan not linked to construction and nothing is happening. Very scarey indeed. It's completely open-ended. I'm in this position with Bay Central.
Filing a complaint with RERA is the best action to take IMO. It's only RERA that can pull this developer into line and force payment holidays.......or even a refund of payments made if they are not in line with progress. Clearly this is the case here. We've had one payment holiday with BC which puts the payment back a quarter, but hardly enough to help, just a token gesture. Don't be fooled either by revised SP construction schedules. the one we received for BC was a complete load of rubbish and a joke - I told Giles Beswick this. RERA complaint..........the only way to go.

I have completed the feedback form on the following web site: http://www.rpdubai.ae/rpdubai/welcome#complaint

Whether of course I get a reply is another matter! Will try and call them if not and lodge a complaint. Perhaps also in writing. Have you lodged a complaint with RERA on Bay Central? How did you go about it and were you successful in getting through to them? I am considering hiring a lawyer in Dubai to act on our behalf to delay the payment schedule and that's why it would be better to get everyone together as a group on this.

If the 20% rule comes into force then they should refund your money on Bay Central too, not just on Botanica.

If you really worried watch this, nothing to do with Dubai but its more to do with some British agents selling properties abroad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQodEAtQMKA

^^Looks like the SP/SG training guide...

Shall we contact Watchdog to investigate sp/sg as a precautionary measure? Just in case Mark Stott, Rahail Aslam, Giles Beswick or Mark Littlewood decide to do a runner?

^^
Indeed - 50% and counting and zero progress. Same story with every one of their developments. A bloody disgrace SG

FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

Point - topped out and currently being internally fitted.

Torch - 50 floors of 82 done and fitting out.

Bay Central - piling for two towers done with central tower slab to be poured very shortly.

Could be better I agree. But certainly not zero progress on all SP projects. Here's a tip from me....... pay a visit to Specsavers !! :lol:

Or alternatively, pay attention to the facts before you post your usual crap. :ohno:

^^
Mr SG spokeman ... missed your PR activities for SG on this forum.
FACT - every SG developments haven't seen the light of day until investors have paid close to 90% of thier unit prices. Disgracefully

Getting contractors to prepare the plot primarily to deceive investors that construction has already started, only to abandon the site for years doesn't count as progress. Hence, zero progress, mate. While the site remains abandoned, SG continue to accumulate investor funds. Sorry guys, dont expect any action on this site this year. The same holds true for West Avenue- a pool and would remain so at least the next 1.5years. Bay central - one crane and minimal workforce - wont be breaking ground this year. Completion if achieved at least 4 years away.

Definitely, I would strongly encourage investors to contact watchdog to investigate SG + to be better informed about their rights in protecting their investments.

I've heard people mention writing to Watchdog a few times. Does anyone think Watchdog would take this on? I'm not saying they wouldn't but I see it like this:-

They usually go for the story of rich guy ripping off the downtrodden and those who can least afford to be ripped off. They might say that a bunch of speculators - out to make a fortune - buying off plan in a poorly regulated developing country and then getting ripped off is not a matter for them or something the miserable mean minded British Public would see as injustice. Most would probably think we all had money to burn and deserve what we've been delivered! Just my view of how it might be seen - that's all.

^^
FACT - every SG developments haven't seen the light of day until investors have paid close to 90% of thier unit prices. Disgracefully


FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

I have paid less than 36% of my total purchase price of the Torch so far.

If you have invested in this project - Is our money not safe in the Escrow account in case SP do a runner/go bust/etc?

If you have invested in this project - Is our money not safe in the Escrow account in case SP do a runner/go bust/etc?

If money was "safely" in an escrow account, how does one go about reclaiming such funds if one does not have details of such an account. In my opinion, forget escrow account - Better if you know and see that your installments are being used for what u set out to pay for.

FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

I have paid less than 36% of my total purchase price of the Torch so far.

I have often wondered about this scheme and whether it offers any form of safety. I think that the company that is underwriting your payments has paid 90% on your behalf. So if 2 satelites were to crash in space and the wreckage was to fall on the developers offices killing everyone resulting in the project foundering, would you still have to make the payments? I think the answer is yes. It's like buying a car on HP and the engine blowing up outside of the warranty, you are still liable for the debt even though you no longer have the asset.

Escrows;
The normal practice with escrow accounts is that they are held in the names of the parties forming the sale contract or for very large sums, their solicitors/agents. Money can not leave the account without the agreement of both sides. Access to the account statments is a formality.

In Dubai, the purchaser is meant to have access to the statment of account but never seems to happen. The buyer also has no say in if the money should be paid out even though it is they who are paying the money in. Taking money out of the account has to be countersigned by Emaar for projects in the marina.

Does anyone actually think that Emaar check the validity of any invoice presented for payment or send a Surveyor to the site to check the contractors valuation? What about an invoice from the developer for 50% commision fees, do you think Emaar have a duty to reason whether this is legitimate? Fact is that if their is an invoice to be paid it will be paid and you have no say in the matter. Escrows stop developers simply emtying the account into their Cayman Islands account before departing Dubai. A little more effort would acheive the same result.

Sleep well!

So if 2 satelites were to crash in space and the wreckage was to fall on the developers offices killing everyone resulting in the project foundering, would you still have to make the payments? I think the answer is yes. It's like buying a car on HP and the engine blowing up outside of the warranty, you are still liable for the debt even though you no longer have the asset.


I checked already. The answer is no and you would get all money paid returned. Sorry to dissapoint you TB :ohno:

I checked already. The answer is no and you would get all money paid returned. Sorry to dissapoint you TB :ohno:

All monies paid returned? How can this happen if it has been paid out of the account to other parties? The logic does not stand up, that's eating your cake and still having it.

Yes, but what if a spaceship from a far off galaxy landed in Emirates Hills and the aliens took Mark Stott and Rahail Aslam into the spaceship and they were never seen again. How would this affect my payments into the escrow account ?? Would I have to make any more payments ?? Would SP's projects get finished ?? Please help me with some answers..........I haven't slept for days with worry..........I'm at my wits end now.

Yes, but what if a spaceship from a far off galaxy landed in Emirates Hills and the aliens took Mark Stott and Rahail Aslam into the spaceship and they were never seen again. How would this affect my payments into the escrow account ?? Would I have to make any more payments ?? Would SP's projects get finished ?? Please help me with some answers..........I haven't slept for days with worry..........I'm at my wits end now.

All projects in Dubai would probably get cancelled and your escrow account funds would be transferred to Lost in Space Select Developments where you would be offered a healthy discount on their latest space capsule on another far off planet complete with your own Robbie the Robot.

Ah, takes me back!!..:laugh:

your escrow account funds would be transferred to Lost in Space Select Developments where you would be offered a healthy discount on their latest space capsule on another far off planet complete with your own Robbie the Robot.


^^^^:hahaha::hahaha:

huh? is this the scientologist thread :dunno:

I think the whole of Dubai will be saved by aliens and the palm is a message to the gods.

http://i42.tinypic.com/o7ja5s.gif

The new Welsh Rugby Team :dunno:

double post

Wales 65 England 6 (tomorrow 14th Feb).
Millennium stadium Cardiff
Start 17.30

:cry: :cry:

I was only kidding, please ask them to take it easy, the kids will cry :cry:

Does anyone know what the scaffolding crossing the road between Grosvenor House and the Promonade will be. Looks like they are building a bridge / road. Seems like an odd place as it would pass very close to the Botancia. In that case the marina view will now be compromised.

Your right its a bridge.

does anyone have a picture of this bridge?

does anyone have a picture of this bridge?

http://i42.tinypic.com/2pslgl0.jpg

Does anyone know what the scaffolding crossing the road between Grosvenor House and the Promonade will be. Looks like they are building a bridge / road. Seems like an odd place as it would pass very close to the Botancia. In that case the marina view will now be compromised.
Thats why Botanica is possibly delaying redesigning for road/bridge - very close

For those of you who dont yet know, and as per Botanica's latest construction update for Feb 2009, Select Property say that work is scheduled to start again in March 2009.

For those of you who dont yet know, and as per Botanica's latest construction update for Feb 2009, Select Property say that work is scheduled to start again in March 2009.
Gonna be 2012 finish then thats what i call late delivery !!

The latest Select update confirms that despite the project delay they will still maintain the original payment schedule. I am already 30% paid with another 20% due on 1st March. That means 50% and they are still soil testing!!! Most of the mainstream developers are rescheduling payments to keep investors on board. That's the problem dealing with these small developers. They don't care about their clients. I consider myself a long term investor with about another 20 years of investment potential. Select are taking a very short term view as I would certainly never do business with them again. The only course in the short term is to lodge a RERA complain as it's this type of unreasonable approach that is undermining investor confidence in the market.

^^Well said poypee and welcome to the forum.

:applause:

I am an investor in Bay Central and I too will never, ever deal with this bunch of cowboys...

You reap what you sow...

The latest Select update confirms that despite the project delay they will still maintain the original payment schedule. I am already 30% paid with another 20% due on 1st March. That means 50% and they are still soil testing!!! Most of the mainstream developers are rescheduling payments to keep investors on board. That's the problem dealing with these small developers. They don't care about their clients. I consider myself a long term investor with about another 20 years of investment potential. Select are taking a very short term view as I would certainly never do business with them again. The only course in the short term is to lodge a RERA complain as it's this type of unreasonable approach that is undermining investor confidence in the market.

Yes indeed. We are lodging a complaint with RERA too as we have paid 50% with another 20% due in June this year taking it to 70%. We are exploring every avenue to delay this June payment as it is completely inequitable of SP to do so. Have been in contact with a lawyer based in Dubai who has negotiated delayed payment schedules if needs be. The first priority is to register a complaint with RERA and wait over the next couple of months to see if their new regulation (of not taking an initial payment of more than 20% and further payment to be commensurate with construction progress) becomes law. It's clear that this is an urgent requirement to help stabilise investor confidence.

^^
20% due in June - That's one hefty sum to pay as an installment. Is the final 30%,assuming 70% paid due on completion or also scheduled to be paid on a given date, like Dec 2009 regardless of construction progressing or not?

The latest Select update confirms that despite the project delay they will still maintain the original payment schedule. I am already 30% paid with another 20% due on 1st March. That means 50% and they are still soil testing!!! Most of the mainstream developers are rescheduling payments to keep investors on board. That's the problem dealing with these small developers. They don't care about their clients. I consider myself a long term investor with about another 20 years of investment potential. Select are taking a very short term view as I would certainly never do business with them again. The only course in the short term is to lodge a RERA complain as it's this type of unreasonable approach that is undermining investor confidence in the market.
You should no way pay this !! RERA will concur

RERA will do f**k all coz RERA is a spineless, goal-less, gormless, gutless, bunch of co.... in fact the only thing that RERA doesn't have less of is bullshit. They have plenty of that.

Go and see the Norwegian women's national basketball team. They will be in a much better position to help you on this one.

^^
20% due in June - That's one hefty sum to pay as an installment. Is the final 30%,assuming 70% paid due on completion or also scheduled to be paid on a given date, like Dec 2009 regardless of construction progressing or not?

Yep - a further 20% to pay in December 09 and the final 10% on completion. We are in it for the long haul and are prepared to sit tight on the investment but SP are taking the p*** in continuing to demand all payments upfront without any construction going on. I just hope RERA get their act together and push the new regulation into law pdq.

^^
Wow .. Very risky investment with such hefty percentages paid to the developer in the current climate. I personally have always judge SP to be very deceitful and definitely not a company to do business with.

It makes me wonder how realistic the administration of the so-called escrow accounts are for SP developments, and other projects in Dubai. I mean, if SP couldn't get their hands on the funds for construction related work, why would they still push and urge investors to keep to the payment plan.

It's a difficult decision on whether to make further investment in a project with no tangibile evidence of construction and a developer maintaining a completely unrealistic payment schedule.
The composition and intention of investor's is a big unknown:
Say 1/3 were short term with objective to flip after podium / 30% payment. This group may not have financing plans in place and may default.
Say 1/3 were planning to fund through completion from their own resources. Many (like myself) are now constrained due to other equity investments going sour and may find it difficult to raise the payments until recovery in the equity market.
Say 1/3 have financing in place either through SP or another source and have no difficulty funding the instalments.
This is just illustrative - I have no idea what the Investor segmentation looks like. My concern however is that if it's roughly as outlined with resultant high level default then where do SP get the cash to fund construction. The regional press has made the point that the Dubai banks are not in a position to lend due to low deposits! I think this is what the major developers have understood and are taking a more enlightened approach on payment schedules to keep investors on-side. As I have said I don't know what the Investor profile looks like but I am also concerned that SP may not know either. No one is talking to me about ability to make payments or seeking to understand individual circumstances.

It's a difficult decision on whether to make further investment in a project with no tangibile evidence of construction and a developer maintaining a completely unrealistic payment schedule.
The composition and intention of investor's is a big unknown:
Say 1/3 were short term with objective to flip after podium / 30% payment. This group may not have financing plans in place and may default.
Say 1/3 were planning to fund through completion from their own resources. Many (like myself) are now constrained due to other equity investments going sour and may find it difficult to raise the payments until recovery in the equity market.
Say 1/3 have financing in place either through SP or another source and have no difficulty funding the instalments.
This is just illustrative - I have no idea what the Investor segmentation looks like. My concern however is that if it's roughly as outlined with resultant high level default then where do SP get the cash to fund construction. The regional press has made the point that the Dubai banks are not in a position to lend due to low deposits! I think this is what the major developers have understood and are taking a more enlightened approach on payment schedules to keep investors on-side. As I have said I don't know what the Investor profile looks like but I am also concerned that SP may not know either. No one is talking to me about ability to make payments or seeking to understand individual circumstances.

I suspect that SP wouldn't be too bothered if a 1/3 default as they get to keep 30% of the purchase price and then resell at a higher premium once the market picks up again later in the year/early next year. As I undestand it Global Group International, who we are directly contracted with, will have given a bank guarantee to Emaar to safeguard the development proceeding to completion anyway. In theory very little of our money should have been touched in the escrow accounts anyway and RERA are getting hot on checking these accounts are not abused in any way. I was interested to hear you say that other developers have adopted a more relaxed attitude to payment schedules. If you have details of these we could use this info to beat SP over the head with!

All purchasers in Botanica received a project update this week confirming that plans are moving ahead to deliver this project, currently in line with the original anticipated completion date, and that main piling is due to start shortly. This project is NOT on hold, in spite of what contributors or moderators of this forum may think.
We look forward to bringing further updates of progress and expect purchasers to remain committed to seeing this development delivered in accordance with original plans.

http://i42.tinypic.com/28u4m6r.jpg

Taken today.

There has been no activity here at all.

http://i39.tinypic.com/mrpekl.jpg

All purchasers in Botanica received a project update this week confirming that plans are moving ahead to deliver this project, currently in line with the original anticipated completion date, and that main piling is due to start shortly. This project is NOT on hold, in spite of what contributors or moderators of this forum may think.
We look forward to bringing further updates of progress and expect purchasers to remain committed to seeing this development delivered in accordance with original plans.

Either a complete incompetent or a compulsive liar! The fact that you have succeded in taking in so much money for doing so little suggests that the latter applies.

I suspect that SP wouldn't be too bothered if a 1/3 default as they get to keep 30% of the purchase price and then resell at a higher premium once the market picks up again later in the year/early next year. As I undestand it Global Group International, who we are directly contracted with, will have given a bank guarantee to Emaar to safeguard the development proceeding to completion anyway. In theory very little of our money should have been touched in the escrow accounts anyway and RERA are getting hot on checking these accounts are not abused in any way. I was interested to hear you say that other developers have adopted a more relaxed attitude to payment schedules. If you have details of these we could use this info to beat SP over the head with!

Here is a representative sample of articles featured in the regional press about developers who have rescheduled payments to keep investors on-board. The sources are referenced:

Dubai's Deyaar adopts different approaches to projects in 2009 – Business Intelligence – Middle East 04-02-2009

Projects that are yet to be built or in initial stages of construction will be considered for consolidation, wherein customers owning units in similar projects in comparable areas will be offered the option to transfer their ownership to projects that will be completed on a fast track basis, with the rest of the projects being phased out. Such projects constitute the remaining 25% of the company’s portfolio.
As part of the customer support strategy, Deyaar will further enhance its customer service offering by extending an enhanced payment schedule to all Deyaar homeowners and investors, granting them greater flexibility in meeting their existing repayment obligations. Under the terms of the schedule announced today, customer payments will be synchronised in line with current project delivery timelines.
While the exact repayment terms will vary depending on the specific Deyaar project and development timeline, all Deyaar homeowners and investors will be provided with a uniform offering. The company will also extend customised support in structuring individual payment plans.

Developers relax payment plans
Sarmad Khan and Angela Giuffrida - The National
Last Updated: October 30. 2008 10:29PM UAE / October 30. 2008 6:29PM GMT
DUBAI // In a bid to revive trading activity and curb falling property prices in secondary markets, major developers are offering relaxed payment plans and reduced fees on transactions, sources said.

Following last week’s warning by the Central Bank governor Sultan Nasser al Suweidi of a possible correction in property prices and increasing concerns that developers will struggle to secure financing for existing and future projects, developers including Emaar and Nakheel have relaxed the conditions for new and current owners.

Dubai developers try to loosen buyers' wallets
November 27 2008 – The Asian Pacific Post

With banks curbing loans because of the global financial crisis and real estate agents finding it difficult to sell properties, developers in Dubai are wooing potential home buyers with lucrative payment options.
A recent survey found that more than 50 per cent of real estate agents in Dubai did not close a single deal last month. As a response, large companies including Emaar, Union Properties (UP) and ETA Star are offering innovative payment schemes to potential buyers ranging from rent-to-own to long-term payment plans.
The Dubai-based UP is the latest to offer flexible payment options.
“UP initially introduced the rent-to-own scheme over four years ago to support the sales at the first Green Community project,” UP’s chief property officer Lesley Sayle said while announcing a relaunch of the scheme.
“It was a plan that was successful, and by reintroducing the rent-to-own scheme, we are giving residents and businesses the flexibility to plan for their homes and office space,” she added.
Under the plan, a customer can rent a property in a select UP project for one to two years. Then, if the client decides to buy the property, the rent that has been paid for the one or two years is converted into a down payment, followed by a regular instalment payment plan.
Sayle says about 98 per cent of UP’s rent-to-own tenants have converted their option and become owners.
Though Sayle said her company did not bring back the plan as a result of cancellations or mortgage defaults. However, the scheme may lure investors still seeking to buy property in Dubai after banks reduced home loan amounts to 50 per cent to 60 per cent of the a property’s total value.
Last week, one of the United Arab Emirates’ (UAE) top developers, Emaar Properties also introduced similar incentives. Under Emaar’s new ‘Plan-to-Own’ option, a buyer can have the flexibility to pay 25 per cent of the property price over five years after the sale closes.
This would make it possible to bridge the current gap due to lower loan to value ratios offered by banks and financial institutions, the company said.
Emaar will help potential home owners and commercial customers who qualify for a mortgage through a bank to bridge the gap by extending their payment plans.

Nakheel may consieder more flexible payment scheme
November 17, 2008 - Dubai Chronicle

Investor who have bought an apartment in Nakheel project Badrah within the Dubai Waterfront told DubaiChronicle.com about changes in the developer’s payment policy.
The buyer, who prefers to remain unidentified, approached Nakheel’s customer service office on Saturday regarding payment rescheduling due to liquidity tightening caused by the current global financial crisis. Nakheel’s customer service officer advised the client to submit the request in written as it should be addressed for further consideration to the finance department. During the conversation Nakheel’s employee stated that new, more flexible payment schedule is already introduced for the land purchases.

Nakheel reshedules payments for Badrah Phase 2
December 11, 2008 - Dubai Chronicle

Dear **************,
We thank you for the email.
Further to numerous requests and taking into consideration the market situation we are pleased to inform you that the payments for the Badrah phase 2 is now moved by 6 months. The next payment for the property is now due on 1st June 2009.
The revised payment plan and a formal communications would be sent out to the customers shortly. Since the payment plan has been revised we would like to inform you that the request for the cancellation of the property cannot be accommodated currently.
If you would like to proceed with the Transfer in the nearest future, please be informed that as the 2nd installment is not due before June 2009 you will be required to pay only the Resale Commission fee - AED 5,000 flat Administration Fee for each unit.
We hope that the above information clarifies your queries.
Should you require any further assistance please revert.
Thank you & Regards,
Customer Relationship Officer
Customer Services Center
Nakheel PJSC
P.O. Box: 17777
Dubai, United Arab Emirates

http://i42.tinypic.com/28u4m6r.jpg

Taken today.

Great Illustration. Despite protestations from SP that they are "on plan", I am not sure many people (whether they be investors or observers) would think it reasonable to have paid 50% for a hole in the ground with a puddle.

Someone else on the thread had mentioned Watchdog and posted the programme they did on Bulgarian Dreams. A picture paints a thousand words - perhaps you should mail them a copy.

[QUOTE=poypee;32579220]Here is a representative sample of articles featured in the regional press about developers who have rescheduled payments to keep investors on-board. The sources are referenced:

"As part of the customer support strategy, Deyaar will further enhance its customer service offering by extending an enhanced payment schedule to all Deyaar homeowners and investors, granting them greater flexibility in meeting their existing repayment obligations. Under the terms of the schedule announced today, customer payments will be synchronised in line with current project delivery timelines."

"Developers relax payment plans"

"In a bid to revive trading activity and curb falling property prices in secondary markets, major developers are offering relaxed payment plans and reduced fees on transactions, sources said."

"Following last week’s warning by the Central Bank governor Sultan Nasser al Suweidi of a possible correction in property prices and increasing concerns that developers will struggle to secure financing for existing and future projects, developers including Emaar and Nakheel have relaxed the conditions for new and current owners."

"With banks curbing loans because of the global financial crisis and real estate agents finding it difficult to sell properties, developers in Dubai are wooing potential home buyers with lucrative payment options."

"Nakheel reshedules payments for Badrah Phase 2"


Poypee - that's all very useful info to have on board - thanks for that. Thanks also to Charlie Big Potatoes for the latest pics.

And not forgetting Select Property for posting a reply - thanks for that. I have no doubt that eventually Botanica will get built, based on the fact that The Point, the Torch, and eventually, Bay Central, are all progressing. The beef we have is that it is totally unacceptable and unreasonable to have to pay up 90% of the total purchase price and see zero or little construction going on. Personally, we will have paid 90% by this December. This is not in line with RERA'S new regulation in that payment schedules should be more in line with progress on construction. Do you not think it would help restore investors' confidence and also help to prevent all the defaults if you offered a 6-12-month relaxation on the payment schedule?

It is clear that most developments are running late in Dubai and Botanica is not going to be an exception. To say that this will be built by the original completion date is utter nonsense - my guess is that it will be October 2012.

You have already offered a 3-month payment delay on Bay Central - what say you to doing the same on Botanica please?

I think we are being treated with utter contempt by these guys - I tried politely to reschedule the terms of payment towards the end of last year but was very firmly rebuffed. There are many things they could do such as changing the remaining instalments from 20%, 20% 10% to say 10%, 10% and 30% on completion. At least we would then feel they mean to help their clients. If nothing much happens before June, I think we should all withhold payment until they agree to an extension of some sort, at least 6 months if not a year

^^Have you complained to RERA?

I think you will only hear bad news regarding this project...

I think we are being treated with utter contempt by these guys - I tried politely to reschedule the terms of payment towards the end of last year but was very firmly rebuffed. There are many things they could do such as changing the remaining instalments from 20%, 20% 10% to say 10%, 10% and 30% on completion. At least we would then feel they mean to help their clients. If nothing much happens before June, I think we should all withhold payment until they agree to an extension of some sort, at least 6 months if not a year

AND HOW DO YOU THINK WE FEEL 3 YEARS DOWN THE LINE, THE LYING B.....DS

I will take your advice and complain to RERA - do you have to go there in person?

I think we are being treated with utter contempt by these guys - I tried politely to reschedule the terms of payment towards the end of last year but was very firmly rebuffed. There are many things they could do such as changing the remaining instalments from 20%, 20% 10% to say 10%, 10% and 30% on completion. At least we would then feel they mean to help their clients. If nothing much happens before June, I think we should all withhold payment until they agree to an extension of some sort, at least 6 months if not a year

We are determined not to pay a further 20% in June this year taking it up to 70% and will use whatever means necessary. If the RERA rule does not become law before June then we will hire a lawyer to renegotiate the payment schedules. We have already made contact with one who says he has managed to negotiate delayed payment schedules for clients. But it would make all the difference if Select Property came to us in the first place and offered a 6-month to 1-year payment delay.

In the meantime we have lodged a complaint with RERA's CEO on the following email: ceo@rera.gov.ae

The following web site is also useful: http://www.rpdubai.ae/rpdubai/welcome

Thanks for the very useful info

well, torch investors have paid for The point to be built, Bay Central investors in turn are paying for the torch to be built, Botanica investors need to start chipping in for Bay central to be built, west Ave and Aquitania investors need to start coughing up for Botanica to get started....are we sure Bernie Madoff was not working for SP???

well, torch investors have paid for The point to be built, Bay Central investors in turn are paying for the torch to be built, Botanica investors need to start chipping in for Bay central to be built, west Ave and Aquitania investors need to start coughing up for Botanica to get started....are we sure Bernie Madoff was not working for SP???

So Botanica investors are going to be OK then !! Fantastic news Grubbman. :banana:

So Botanica investors are going to be OK then !! Fantastic news Grubbman. :banana:
MORRIS - your optimism astounds me :lol:

So don't you believe Grubbman then ??

Look, Giles Beswick says it's on schedule and will be completed on time, that's good enough for me. :banana:

Look, Giles Beswick says it's on schedule and will be completed on time, that's good enough for me. :banana:


^^You must work for the bank that is receiving the payments then, and divying them up for your bank bonuses.;)

It's all starting to make sense now why Morris is such a big fan of the Marina's worst performing developer.

Look, Giles Beswick says it's on schedule and will be completed on time, that's good enough for me. :banana:

Of course it's ok 4 u - insisting the completion date is still in sight is always stressed by SP, and primarily serves to deceive the investor to carry on paying thier installments. I wonder how long SP would be able to carry on with such lies and adopt a more honest and open approach with their investors.

One thing for sure is obvious to me - the Administration of escrow accounts for this and similar developments in Dubai is non-existant. Just a scam to encourage or instill some confidence in people to invest in Dubai.

So don't you believe Grubbman then ??

Look, Giles Beswick says it's on schedule and will be completed on time, that's good enough for me. :banana:

I don't think Grubbman is far off actually (except the Madioff stuff obviously)

"Originally Posted by Kingsmaite
I suspect that SP wouldn't be too bothered if a 1/3 default as they get to keep 30% of the purchase price and then resell at a higher premium once the market picks up again later in the year/early next year."



I am not so sure SP would be able to pick up replacement investors even at a discount:

1)The off plan market is pretty much dead. This was evidenced at the recent property exhibition in Abu Dhabi.

Dubai Real Estate News
UAE Property Market Trends and Reviews
Poor response to Abu Dhabi Property Show IREIS 2009
Thursday, January 29, 2009

"The Abu Dhabi Real Estate and Investment Show at the National Exhibition Center, unveiled yesterday, witnessed a rather empty scene, except for few exhibitors who were seen peeking at each other's stalls."

2)Recovery of the property market in Dubai, in my opinion, is linked to a general global economic recovery which I don’t see as a near term event.
3)Why take the risk in buying off-plan when there are better deals on finished units available in the market. For example there is an advert in the Gulf News Property Section today for finished units in the Marina at AED 825 per sq ft, Page 18. By the way there is also a 3 bed Villa in The Lakes at AED 2,688,710 which were selling at between AED 4,000,000 and 4,600,000 six months ago!
4)Many commentators don’t believe we have hit the bottom of the market yet. Two research sources shown below are a leading Dubai Real Estate firm and an international Investment Bank.

“Dubai Property Prices May Fall Up to 50 Per Cent: Research
Issac John - 2 February 2009 - Khaleej Times

"DUBAI - Prices of residential and commercial property in Dubai are predicted to plunge this year by up to 50 per cent and 40 per cent respectively as the real estate market reels under pressures of a correction sparked by weak demand, findings by a new market research show.

Residential rents of both apartments and villas are also forecast to drop by 25 per cent while commercial rents are poised “to fare even worse,” according to the report by Landmark Advisory, the research wing of a Dubai-based property company.”


“UAE Property Pressured by Expat Outflows: UBS(Reuters)
30 January 2009
DUBAI - Property market conditions in the United Arab Emirates will remain challenging this year and next with house prices in Dubai expected to fall further as foreign workers leave the emirate, UBS said.

“In our view expat-led population outflows in Dubai and flattish trends in Abu Dhabi will pressure house prices in the foreseeable future,” the bank said in a research note.

A population decline of 8 per cent in 2009 and 2 per cent in 2010 may be conservative and accounting for potential payment defaults, would exacerbate Dubai’s housing issues, it said.

The bank expected residential oversupply to reach 27 percent by the end of 2010 and remained cautious on the timing of property handovers.”

5)International investors can find better value with less risk in a variety of international markets, in my opinion, where the property correction has presented investment opportunities, Even UAE based investors are turning to western markets!

"Bargain-hunting investors go West
Feedback from IPS suggests local investors are keen to buy foreign property.
By: Ryan Harrison on Friday, February 20, 2009 – Roots Land Real Estate

UAE-based property investors are being lured like never before by the charms and attractive pricing of cities such as London and New York, as they look to capitalise on a strong dirham.

Global business centres have witnessed house prices weaken considerably from their pre-financial crisis days, some as much as 20 per cent. This, coupled with the weak pound and a strong dollar-pegged dirham, give the UAE investor renewed spending power.

And despite central London residential prices remaining among the highest in the world, current deals will prove cheap for the UAE’s big spenders.

Some will be buying a second home or will look to enter the lucrative buy-to-let market, which is expected to hold firm in the coming years.

Feedback from this week’s International Property Show (IPS) – Dubai 2009 proved that local investors were seeking reliable foreign property that was resilient in the tough times."

"Originally Posted by Kingsmaite
I suspect that SP wouldn't be too bothered if a 1/3 default as they get to keep 30% of the purchase price and then resell at a higher premium once the market picks up again later in the year/early next year."



I am not so sure SP would be able to pick up replacement investors even at a discount:

1)The off plan market is pretty much dead. This was evidenced at the recent property exhibition in Abu Dhabi.

Dubai Real Estate News
UAE Property Market Trends and Reviews
Poor response to Abu Dhabi Property Show IREIS 2009
Thursday, January 29, 2009

"The Abu Dhabi Real Estate and Investment Show at the National Exhibition Center, unveiled yesterday, witnessed a rather empty scene, except for few exhibitors who were seen peeking at each other's stalls."

2)Recovery of the property market in Dubai, in my opinion, is linked to a general global economic recovery which I don’t see as a near term event.
3)Why take the risk in buying off-plan when there are better deals on finished units available in the market. For example there is an advert in the Gulf News Property Section today for finished units in the Marina at AED 825 per sq ft, Page 18. By the way there is also a 3 bed Villa in The Lakes at AED 2,688,710 which were selling at between AED 4,000,000 and 4,600,000 six months ago!
4)Many commentators don’t believe we have hit the bottom of the market yet. Two research sources shown below are a leading Dubai Real Estate firm and an international Investment Bank.

“Dubai Property Prices May Fall Up to 50 Per Cent: Research
Issac John - 2 February 2009 - Khaleej Times

"DUBAI - Prices of residential and commercial property in Dubai are predicted to plunge this year by up to 50 per cent and 40 per cent respectively as the real estate market reels under pressures of a correction sparked by weak demand, findings by a new market research show.

Residential rents of both apartments and villas are also forecast to drop by 25 per cent while commercial rents are poised “to fare even worse,” according to the report by Landmark Advisory, the research wing of a Dubai-based property company.”


“UAE Property Pressured by Expat Outflows: UBS(Reuters)
30 January 2009
DUBAI - Property market conditions in the United Arab Emirates will remain challenging this year and next with house prices in Dubai expected to fall further as foreign workers leave the emirate, UBS said.

“In our view expat-led population outflows in Dubai and flattish trends in Abu Dhabi will pressure house prices in the foreseeable future,” the bank said in a research note.

A population decline of 8 per cent in 2009 and 2 per cent in 2010 may be conservative and accounting for potential payment defaults, would exacerbate Dubai’s housing issues, it said.

The bank expected residential oversupply to reach 27 percent by the end of 2010 and remained cautious on the timing of property handovers.”

5)International investors can find better value with less risk in a variety of international markets, in my opinion, where the property correction has presented investment opportunities, Even UAE based investors are turning to western markets!

"Bargain-hunting investors go West
Feedback from IPS suggests local investors are keen to buy foreign property.
By: Ryan Harrison on Friday, February 20, 2009 – Roots Land Real Estate

UAE-based property investors are being lured like never before by the charms and attractive pricing of cities such as London and New York, as they look to capitalise on a strong dirham.

Global business centres have witnessed house prices weaken considerably from their pre-financial crisis days, some as much as 20 per cent. This, coupled with the weak pound and a strong dollar-pegged dirham, give the UAE investor renewed spending power.

And despite central London residential prices remaining among the highest in the world, current deals will prove cheap for the UAE’s big spenders.

Some will be buying a second home or will look to enter the lucrative buy-to-let market, which is expected to hold firm in the coming years.

Feedback from this week’s International Property Show (IPS) – Dubai 2009 proved that local investors were seeking reliable foreign property that was resilient in the tough times."

You may well be right Poypee but judging by the fact that Select Property has continued to force our hands in sticking to the payment schedule and by even issuing final notices that we will lose our apartments, this does not indicate any flexibility on their part to keep investors on board - they couldn't really care less it seems. Blue Horizon also said he asked nicely for a payment delay and was dealt a firm 'no'. It is their inflexibility that is causing the problems with defaulters. They have 30 apartments in Botanica on their list for a resale right now, with nothing moving whatsoever. As you say the off-plan market is dead.

But there are some very positive articles out there that are saying Dubai will be the first to recover from the global crisis - some quoting this Autumn as the turnaround. Let's hope so!

I've just joined this forum, as a concerned purchaser in Botanica.
Sure, the current outlook is pretty grim, but I was never in this for the short-term, and always saw Dubai as a longer term investment.
However, it is the attitude and stance of Select that is really starting to trouble me deepy. Right now, their investors have no confidence in the company or the projects, and they need to act quickly and decisively to remedy that situation. Just telling us that Botanica in on-schedule is nonsense; other SP projects are clear evidence that their schedules are laughable.
Like Kingsmaite and other investors, I now face having to pay 90% by the end of 2009. Just based on their own latest info to investors, Botanica is simply not going to be anywhere near 90% built by December. A sensible payment delay would be the first small step to giving me a little confidence in SP, because right now, I don't have any. I'm not too bothered if the project runs a year late, but I am bothered at having to pay so much so early.
Giles Beswick - are you listening to your investors???

I've just joined this forum, as a concerned purchaser in Botanica.
Sure, the current outlook is pretty grim, but I was never in this for the short-term, and always saw Dubai as a longer term investment.
However, it is the attitude and stance of Select that is really starting to trouble me deepy. Right now, their investors have no confidence in the company or the projects, and they need to act quickly and decisively to remedy that situation. Just telling us that Botanica in on-schedule is nonsense; other SP projects are clear evidence that their schedules are laughable.
Like Kingsmaite and other investors, I now face having to pay 90% by the end of 2009. Just based on their own latest info to investors, Botanica is simply not going to be anywhere near 90% built by December. A sensible payment delay would be the first small step to giving me a little confidence in SP, because right now, I don't have any. I'm not too bothered if the project runs a year late, but I am bothered at having to pay so much so early.
Giles Beswick - are you listening to your investors???

Middle/End 2011 very earliest handover/delivery IMHO --so suggest you stop paying NOW - talk/write to RERA

You may well be right Poypee but judging by the fact that Select Property has continued to force our hands in sticking to the payment schedule and by even issuing final notices that we will lose our apartments, this does not indicate any flexibility on their part to keep investors on board - they couldn't really care less it seems. Blue Horizon also said he asked nicely for a payment delay and was dealt a firm 'no'. It is their inflexibility that is causing the problems with defaulters. They have 30 apartments in Botanica on their list for a resale right now, with nothing moving whatsoever. As you say the off-plan market is dead.

But there are some very positive articles out there that are saying Dubai will be the first to recover from the global crisis - some quoting this Autumn as the turnaround. Let's hope so!

Yes the SP stance is worrying, particularly if they can't find new investors. The real default level in my opinion has yet to kick in if the independent forecasts, referred to in my previous response, of further falls in Dubai real estate up to 50% are realised.

I have, in an earlier response, listed a range of developers who are being innovative and responsive in keeping current investors on board by extending payment schedules and being more flexible to customer circumstances. They are not in my view doing this out of some altruistic public spirited gesture. In my opinion they understand that if they loose their current investors the liklihood of finding replacements is marginal. So what are the consequences of SP's rigid stance - I have my own view but it's for investors to draw their own conclusions.

I do hope, as you suggest, that we see an early recovery in the Real Estate market in Dubai. However most of the stuff I have been reading and referenced in the previous response suggests the contrary.
-The population is diminishing - very high dependence on expats who have to leave if they loose their job.
-Liquidity remains an issue - most lenders have reduced % prepared to lend and borrowing remains expensive (in 7% - 8% range)
-Supply likely to outstrip demand - see previous reference to UBS forecast
-Emerging Markets look more attractive when value opportunities in mature markets are limited, but there are lots of opportunities in mature markets at present.

But there are some very positive articles out there that are saying Dubai will be the first to recover from the global crisis - some quoting this Autumn as the turnaround. Let's hope so!

Which article was this?

Which article was this?

This is one recent article that is saying they think the market has hit rock bottom and is now starting to pick up. There have been many articles on this same web site which shows a more positive side than all the doom and gloom.

http://www.ameinfo.com/185553.html

Poypee - the thing for all of us to do is to keep really focused and keep the pressure on to get a delay in payment schedules. This is the way forward to give long-term investors a bit of a breather so we can survive the credit crunch. The AED/UK exchange rate has been a killer for us in that suddenly a 20% payment on the SPP essentially means an increase of a whacking 22K! I would like to think that SP will be reasonable and fair in all this, and delay the payment schedule by a minimum of 6 months. This will buy us time to secure that elusive funding and would bring the payments in line with construction. Giles - where's your reply to all this? The silence is deafening .... Are you asking the develop as we speak? I certainly hope so.

As an analyst who is looking at the overall supply Vs. demand picture, i am sorry to say that the market has not yet hit the rock bottom. we are still far from that, prices have to go back to 2005/2006 levels (initial offer price) i think that is the first real resistance point. when prices reach that point, if we still have a lot of excess supply (currently it is estimated at around 30% over supply) then prices might even drop further down to reach the cost of building a new property and that is what i call the rock bottom. after that prices might start to pick up.

^^ Spoken like a true analyst. Where have you been hiding? You could have saved the world a lot of pain.

is it bout time we get a bit concerned about the total lack of activity on site and consider why having paid 80% build cost we have seen 0% build??

Constructive(!) comments pls

Si is this project that far advanced with payments? Can you confirm Botanic on spp is 80% paid to date and this is not a typo!

ive paid 60% with next 20% due april, as im sure u can appreciate am loathed to make that payment with such obvious lack of progress and creditable information.

its a worry and others must be in a similar position, or worse, as it is supposedly sold out....

Completion for this Tower is what? September 2010?

Technically it takes between 28 and 34 months to build a tower (all going well and FULLY according to plan) for this calibre of tower. That is from the point they officially mobilise onsite.

Excavations and Shore pilling can take up to 6 months (if work is going full steam ahead it will take half this)

So that on the 34 months timescales that gives us 28 months build! We are in March now, which gives us about 17 months to hit September 2010 so for me there will be around 12 month delay on this if everything were to work towards the 34 month program.

On the more optimistic estimate of 28 months you are talking about 6 month delay - i.e. for Dubai effectively on time.

But that is ALL based on work beginning again THIS month, so lets see shall we...!?!

factor in this is SP we are dealing with here and re calculate.

ive paid 60% with next 20% due april, as im sure u can appreciate am loathed to make that payment with such obvious lack of progress and creditable information.

its a worry and others must be in a similar position, or worse, as it is supposedly sold out....

Yes there's a lot of us in the same boat - all trying desperately to get a payment delay. We are 50% paid on the SPP with another 20% due in June. It's outrageous that SP continue to demand payments when there is no construction going on. The contract is one-sided and totally unreasonable and unfair. Have you pushed for a payment delay with SP and what was the response?

If this building is sold out, what is stopping these guys building?

It is all in their favour at the moment:

- Most investors have paid 60-80% already! others are paying quarterly so they will have a stream of revenue coming in all the time!

- Building Materials is cheap now!

- There is NO shortage of labour now!

Can someone from Select Property explain the delay?

This is the same tactics applied to us in The Point. We paid depos in april 06. Nothing happened for well over a year check back on the thread, and the last payment we made to SP was dec 07 16 months ago. We are 85% paid and have been for ages and I think piling had just finished at that time. So they have built the tower without any additional payments from spp depending on when they entered but this was all during a rising market. Slightly different story now so fingers crossed for all in here.