http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/graphic/2007-11/33780215.jpg

Here's all the stories on the subject so far (http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/dining/bal-arena,0,2626246.storygallery) in The Sun. Based on this, anything else you've read, and your own insight/instincts, where would you put the new Baltimore Arena?

NB: Option #9 isn't on this map, but it's located across Russell Street from M&T Bank Stadium.

I don't know why, but the Gateway South area really makes sense to me. :)

I Like Canton!That area is really going to get a boom so why NOT put it there?

I vote for Gateway South.

Gotta go with Lexington Market.

As I said, I like Gateway South, but the other two choices I like for #2 and #3 would be the Lexington Market site and then the Port Covington last. :D

Gotta go with Lexington Market.

Proximity to the University of Maryland Baltimore a factor?

i originally voted for the current spot, but now that i think about it, that might too much of an inconvenience. make no doubt about it everyone.....2-3 years without an arena here WILL for sure mean the end of the blast in baltimore. we would also lose money from the wwe, ringling brothers, monster truck rallys, walt disney on ice, ncaa tournament games, and so on. so now, i think i'll go with gateway south. seems only fitting.:okay:

I voted for 5 of 'em:

Port Covington: My favorite, but this will become something with or without the arena. (I'm a homer, since I live very close to Port Covington.)
Russell St.: The best choice for this project, if coupled with AEG's retail development plans.
Gateway South: Same as Russell St., but less obvious upside to me.
Westport: Would give that development a real impetus.
Eutaw + MLK: Just because I'd love to see the attendant improvements to I-70 and I-83 connectivity.

My ideal world: Russell St. + Canton (2 arenas), with the current site razed and replaced with a mixed-use tower.

I said this on the other arena thread. I voted for Lot O but I also like Port Covington even though I think its a snowball's chance in hell of going there. Another waterfront entertainment, sports, and shopping area would be fantastic. That said, Port Covington is going to happen and the arena would serve as the catalyst it should serve. This is why I default to the Lot O site....let this development breath life into an area that is moribund. Also, I'm not sold on the arena at Gateway South because of slots. I don't know, the thought of slots near Disney on Ice doesn't quite gell with me.

^^ Sure it would. You could have, "Slots on Ice! :D ;) :lol:

^^:hilarious

I still think it needs to go as far west as possible. When is West Baltimore going to get something new?

I still think it needs to go as far west as possible. When is West Baltimore going to get something new?

Yea but that wouldnt be fair for the East Siders like me.Why should I have to travel all the way out West just to go to the Arena.I voted for Canton for my favorite place but for everybody to be happy,it should be downtown,just not in the same area it was before.

My pic was Gateway south, but I would have my other choices in this order...

Lexington Market
Harbor Point (if current development fell through)
Current Site
Port Covington
Lot O
WestPort
Canton

I selected Current Arena, Gateway South, Westport, Canton, and Lot "O".

With the Gateway South and Lot "O" options, the new arena would make a great add-on to the Camden Yards Sports Complex. The Eutaw St. and MLK Jr. Blvd. option would place the arena on the site of the 5th Regiment Armory.

Gateway South, Westport or Port Covington and make the current lot an underground garage with green space on top. Green space there will increase the chances of more people living there.

Lexington. Eat and play!

Wow. Lexington's in the lead as of 9:52 a.m. I dunno. Think that site sucks up space better used by the University of Maryland, but maybe I'm missing something. Vox populi.

If you build it, will NBA or NHL come?
by Michael Olesker, The Examiner
BALTIMORE (Map, News) - As the Deep Thinkers of Baltimore begin pondering a brand new indoor sports and concert arena, the crux of all considerations come down to these: Where do we build it? How big do we make it? And the crux of the second question comes down to this: Will we make the joint big enough if pro basketball or hockey comes calling?

“As if,” the scoffers declare.

Meaning, “as if the National Basketball Association, or the National Hockey League, would ever show any interest in Baltimore.”

In fact, the NBA already has.

Ed Hale was talking about this the other day. He is chairman of the board of 1st Mariner Bank, whose name is now displayed on the place we used to call the Civic Center, where winter nights were once electrified when Earl Monroe whirled toward the basket, and Gus Johnson soared high above it, and Wes Unseld set picks that could stop a tank.

Hale’s been talking about building a new arena on the east side of town, around Boston Street just off the I-95 ramp, for several years now. The people who own sports teams know this. A few years back, Hale was approached by a majority partner of the New Jersey Nets about moving that team here. On another occasion, he was approached by “a broker” for the Houston Rockets.

“O’Malley was mayor,” Hale said, “and we met with him to talk about it. He said, ‘Yeah, if you guys are serious, we’re interested.’ He was fully engaged and ready to do whatever he could to help. But then the Houston guy backed off. Frankly, he might have been using us for leverage back home.”

This is the kind of language Baltimoreans understand, if they’re old enough to remember Robert Irsay. The owners of all pro sports teams have learned how to play one town against another, how to threaten the locals: Give me a better deal, or I take my team somewhere else.

“The grass is always greener in another city,” Hale said. “That’s how they look at it. It’s considered a better city if they give you a better deal.”

Irsay (and a few other creeps) created the model that anticipates all modern sports movement. Ball clubs have become gypsy enterprises. Who knows where they’ll show up next? In Baltimore, as we ponder such a question, we now have seven groups — including Hale’s — submitting plans for a new indoor arena.

Earlier this year, the Maryland Stadium Authority proposed a new place with no more than 16,000 seats. The figure’s important. Both the NBA and the NHL require a minimum of 17,000.

Here’s another problem: They also require very high ticket prices.

When the Monroe-Johnson-Unseld Bullets played here, they had lots of problems, including history. Those were the post-riot years, when downtown after dark resembled a ghost town. But economics also played a big role in their eventual departure. Back then, the phrase everybody used was “the Baltimore sports dollar” — how far would it stretch when fans were already buying tickets for the Orioles and the Colts?

Now they’re shelling out money for the Ravens and the Orioles — in diminishing numbers for the Orioles, now that the Ravens and the Washington Nationals are both in business. And NBA prices are far, far beyond what Baltimoreans remember paying for basketball. The average NBA ticket last year was $45. The average “premium price” ticket was $154.

What’s “premium”? That depends on definition. Some friends are paying $125 a ticket for Washington Wizards games this year. Those are considered “premium.” They’re sitting 15 rows away from courtside.

The average NHL ticket last year was $43. “Premium” tickets averaged $95.

“My honest feeling,” says Hale, “is that Baltimore would have a tough time with those prices. We have great fans here, but this kind of money is pretty prohibitive — especially if you’re talking about bringing out the family, and $6 for a drink, and $5 for a hot dog.

“Then you have the skybox problem. There aren’t enough corporations headquartered here to fill up those things. And skyboxes take care of the debt service. Without them, you don’t have enough revenue stream. So there’s the dilemma: Do you build something cheaper but exclude the possibility of getting basketball or hockey?”

Those are pretty sobering words from a guy known for thinking big. It doesn’t mean the city should build a second-rate arena. But it does mean we should think about its realistic uses, and our realistic desires.

Please send news tips to Michael Olesker at olesker@baltimoreexaminer.com

Join the discussion and take our poll in today's examiNation Baltimore: Is Baltimore ready for pro basketball and pro hockey?

http://www.examiner.com/a-1059060~examiNation_Baltimore__Is_Baltimore_ready_for_pro_basketball_and_pro_hockey_.html

So far, over 85% of people say, "Baltimore can NOT support and NBA or NHL Team.

The Stadium Authority has already studied this. They concluded that the city could support one more professional sports team. Comparable cities like Pittsburgh and Cleveland have more than 2 teams - and our metro area has a larger population then both of them.

I ask Mr. Hale, if the city can't fill skyboxes because of a lack of corporate HQ's, then how does he explain the waiting list for the Raven's skyboxes? Our football stadium has way more skyboxes then the average NFL stadium and they are all full.

“My honest feeling,” says Hale, “is that Baltimore would have a tough time with those prices. We have great fans here, but this kind of money is pretty prohibitive — especially if you’re talking about bringing out the family, and $6 for a drink, and $5 for a hot dog.



Sounds like Hale and others need to start reading and listening to what they and others like them have been saying. They say Baltimore is making a turn around. They say Baltimore is no longer a blue-collar town. They say Baltimore is ready for luxury. All the studies show we're one of the richest, highest educated regions in the country. And yet we can't shell out $45 for an NBA or NHL ticket where Cleveland, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Detroit, St. Louis (no offense to those cities) can.

We're not gonna pay that much because it's substantially higher than what we remember paying back in 1972? Have we been living in a bubble since then? Did we not experience the rise in prices that occurred over the past 30 years?

They're also forgetting that, unlike most cities, Baltimoreans support their teams. The Orioles haven't had in a winning season in, well I can't remember when the last one was, and we're still averaging over 27,000 fans per game. It's not great, but it beats out more than a few clubs. And it didn't take us any time at all to love the Ravens. Why do they think that won't happen again if they bring in a NBA or NHL franchise?

"Baltimore" doesn't have to support the team on its own. Build a state of the art arena with convenient parking at a location right off 95* -- Lot "O", Gateway South, Port Covington, even Canton Crossing -- and the market for this team will stretch from Delaware to the Potomac. This market includes people who wouldn't go into downtown Baltimore (or DC, or downtown anything) unless they were being Medevac'ed to Shock Trauma.

*None of which, incidentally, existed when the Bullets left town in '73.

P.S. Somebody please explain the appeal of an arena near Lexington Market. I love the market and the surrounding neighborhood is fine with me, but I just don't get it.

^^ I would guess the appeal of being close in the "downtown" area.

Yea but that wouldnt be fair for the East Siders like me.Why should I have to travel all the way out West just to go to the Arena.I voted for Canton for my favorite place but for everybody to be happy,it should be downtown,just not in the same area it was before.

The East side has just about everything, most of the major projects right now and is considered "safer" than West Baltimore. Spread the wealth...

I still think it needs to go as far west as possible. When is West Baltimore going to get something new?

I think redevelopment in West Baltimore is a tough one to pull off. I'd prefer to see incremental steps out there, rather than going "all in" with a venue that will need to cater to the suburbanites as well as city folk.

Baltimore could clearly support a basketball team. A hockey team is a different story, I think.

^^ I would guess the appeal of being close in the "downtown" area.

The more I think about it, the more I believe Lexington Market and Penn Station represent landlocked propositions with little opportunity for significant mixed-use development. IMO.

The more I think about it, the more I believe Lexington Market and Penn Station represent landlocked propositions with little opportunity for significant mixed-use development. IMO.

Agreed.

I like the current location the best. But what to do in the meantime,

Lot 'O' is intreging.

Agreed also.

I won't post it, but that does suggest a further poll:

"Which site has the most development potential or would have the most impact on its surrounding neighborhood?"

(Probably Lot "O" though Port Cov., Gateway, and Westport could all help spur the "next" Inner Harbor)

And, of course, there's always

"Which site will draw the most complaints from nearby communities?"

(Dead heat among Penn Station, Lex Market, Westport, Lot "O" ... and possibly Port Covington. SoBoeans weren't all thrilled about Walmart)

The more I think about it, the more I believe Lexington Market and Penn Station represent landlocked propositions with little opportunity for significant mixed-use development. IMO.

I agree. The parking lot north of Penn Station isn't really very big and there also are not any significant lots near Lexington Market that are vacant so both would require significant demo. An arena next to Penn would be totally out of scale with everything around there (no parking too) and there's no synergy for an arena near Lexington Market. Both seem like non-starters.

I just thought that the Gateway site was so large that it would be a huge development that would act as a connector for downtown to Westport and the rest of SOBO. Transit is pretty close.

I just thought that the Gateway site was so large that it would be a huge development that would act as a connector for downtown to Westport and the rest of SOBO. Transit is pretty close.

How large is Gateway South now that slots are guaranteed to be there if approved by the people next November? How much land is a slots parlor going to require? The arena requires 5 acres comfortably. Assume another 2 acres for the parlor. Now, Gateway South goes from 11 acres to 4 acres. Its no longer as big as originally planned unless you go vertical.

Yeah. Gateway'd be a tight fit with all that. And, really, if slots are in the cards (pardon the pun), might was well go with a full-blown casino on the water, like Pittsburgh's building. Either way, Gateway should be expanded by landfilling some of the shallows where rubble from the Great Fire of 1904 was dumped. We're not talking a pristine environment here. (Cue: Demolition Dave)

I'd also keep an eye out for AEG integrating slots into their proposal. I expect all the proposals, development teams, etc. to morph considerably between now and groundbreaking. Best guess: there'll be one huge project straddling Russell Street, i.e. a Gateway/Lot "O" hybrid. There's no sense in building a bright, shiny project on one side of Russell while the other side's still looking dumpy.

Bball could easily be supported here....

We probably wouldn't lead the league in attandance but it would be better than, say, Miami who had empty seats in the frickin conference finals...

Hockey on the other hand, not so much.

Baltimore is the 19th largest MSA. There are more than 19 teams in the NBA. The demographics of Bmore point to Basketball thriving here much moreso than anything else not named football. (baseball included)

The more I think about it, the more I believe Lexington Market and Penn Station represent landlocked propositions with little opportunity for significant mixed-use development. IMO.

I don't get it, the current site is not?

The lot next to Ravens Stadium would be best. it is still walking distance to many of the downtown hotel too. Lot J would be good too. Honestly they should build a garage behind the two stadiums with the Arena on top of the Garage. I think it is important for the Arena to be Walking distance from the convention complex or the Light rail stop at M and t Bank Stadium

Lot O is kind of interesting.......

Yeah. Gateway'd be a tight fit with all that. And, really, if slots are in the cards (pardon the pun), might was well go with a full-blown casino on the water, like Pittsburgh's building. Either way, Gateway should be expanded by landfilling some of the shallows where rubble from the Great Fire of 1904 was dumped. We're not talking a pristine environment here. (Cue: Demolition Dave)

I'd also keep an eye out for AEG integrating slots into their proposal. I expect all the proposals, development teams, etc. to morph considerably between now and groundbreaking. Best guess: there'll be one huge project straddling Russell Street, i.e. a Gateway/Lot "O" hybrid. There's no sense in building a bright, shiny project on one side of Russell while the other side's still looking dumpy.

Valid points. There is popular belief that slots is a precursor to table games. AEG and Harrahs partnered to build a new arena and entertainment venue in Las Vegas...Hmmm.....

I really want the AEG team to get this! Another entertainment district downtown would be outstanding. BACVA would love it, maybe that ugly convention center hotel would be of some use, the other 2,200 new hotel rooms coming online would see longer occupancy periods, downtown residents would have a multitude of choices (play at the Hippodrome on Wednesday, concert at the Nokia on Thurs, movie (Landmark or Regal) on Friday, nightclub (choices between Fells, Federal, Lot O, etc) on Saturday, and aquarium/football game/baseball game and lunch at the Inner Harbor on Sunday....of course after Church! This is what the city needs. Maybe a merger of Gateway South and Lot O creates a "super entertainment and sports district." Nice.

Bball could easily be supported here....

We probably wouldn't lead the league in attandance but it would be better than, say, Miami who had empty seats in the frickin conference finals...

Hockey on the other hand, not so much.

Baltimore is the 19th largest MSA. There are more than 19 teams in the NBA. The demographics of Bmore point to Basketball thriving here much moreso than anything else not named football. (baseball included)

How much does Abe Pollin have in the NBA and would he prevent a team from being relocated 45 minutes away from his team?

I don't get it, the current site is not?

Absolutely the current site is landlocked and I don't think the new arena should go there either. Here's my view in a nutshell, opportunities like this don't come often. There is an opportunity to for a major venue to serve as a catalyst for significant development. I travel to DC for Wizards and Capital games and I see the impact of Verizon Center on the marketplace. This arena can do the same but not at landlocked locations nor locations that already have development planned such as Westport, Canton, and Port Covington (even thought I like the thought of the arena on the water). These locations are going to happen without the arena being there. Why take it to those locations?

Specifically to the existing site, its not like it would sit idle for long. It was reported that a few of the teams have alternative developments planned for the existing site if the arena is to be moved. Quality mixed use would go on that site and would tie into what is planned at the Superblock.

The lot next to Ravens Stadium would be best. it is still walking distance to many of the downtown hotel too. Lot J would be good too. Honestly they should build a garage behind the two stadiums with the Arena on top of the Garage. I think it is important for the Arena to be Walking distance from the convention complex or the Light rail stop at M and t Bank Stadium

Lot J and a number of properties on Ostend are very intriguing. Those properties link Gateway South to the proposed Lot O development. Linkage would be a good thing.

^^ I agree. :yes:

:)

... I really want the AEG team to get this! ...

Yes. Having done it already, AEG has the knowledge and the partnerships. And, as important, they probably have the access to capital.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Mci_center_jan2006b.jpg/800px-Mci_center_jan2006b.jpg

Which may help to spur this...would go well around westport, and be a link between westport, the stadium district, and downtown. Or maybe if we move 10IH to midtown, and put this development in its place (if there's space). Atlease a nice thought at best!

LA Live!

http://z.about.com/d/gocalifornia/1/0/x/5/3/CommArts-Image1-a.jpg

^^ That place looks awesome!! :yes: :)

i think i'm a bit surprised that lexington market is in the lead in the poll. that market is a HUGE part of our history here. but who knows? it just might work.

^^ That place looks awesome!! :yes: :)
yeah, it does look good. once cordish gets going with his 701 e. baltimore street project, we'll have something similar. that district is gonna' become a huge moneymaker for this city.

yeah, it does look good. once cordish gets going with his 701 e. baltimore street project, we'll have something similar. that district is gonna' become a huge moneymaker for this city.

According to one of our forumers here, that project is either on "hold" or dead all together. Should have known Cordish would concentrate on other cities and not respectfully develop the 701 e. baltimore street site first.
That's my personal feeling on it. But whenever the site is developed, I hope it's better than what we've seen so far. :bash:

According to one of our forumers here, that project is either on "hold" or dead all together. Should have known Cordish would concentrate on other cities and not respectfully develop the 701 e. baltimore street site first.
That's my personal feeling on it. But whenever the site is developed, I hope it's better than what we've seen so far. :bash:


Yeah. Cordish deal is definitely on hold.

I don't like giving up any more parking for Camden Yards, it sucks already!
But, that wuold be ideal for me. I like the way Philly has set up there entertainment-sports complex.

I'm really split on this. I want it to be right on a transit line for sure. I don't want it in Canton or Westport though because I feel both of those areas will develop very well without the aid of an arena.

The lot near Camden Yards intrigues me because then we would have a sports complex that rivals Philly's. However, the only way this would work is if the area around the arena there was developed with stores and restaurants and entertainment. That is not likely to happen.

The current site doesn't work because we can't go without an arena for a few years.

Therefore, I think I like the Lexington Market idea surprisingly, so long as it's for the better of the historic market. I can envision a Verizon Center like change happening over in that area and a boost to Lexington Market. It could help further develop the west side and spur more projects.

I think the key though is to make sure we have enough seats for an NBA or NHL team because I believe we can get one, especially as BRAC moves in and the population in the metro area continues to increase.

I'm really split on this.

I'm with you. I really want to see the proposals, not only for the arena sites, but also for these sites if they are not awarded the arena. What does Hale have planned for Canton if he doesn't get the arena? What about Turner in Westport? and Cormony in Gateway South? Most importantly though, if the arena isn't destined for the current site, what are we going to see there?

I also want to know who can get this job done the quickest. Will this be put on the fast track or are we going to experience another convention center hotel here?

The good thing is that we potentially have a lot of great sites, any of which would do well. The bad side is that this opens the door for years of quarreling over where to put it.

Yes, I believe seeing the proposals would really, ultimately, determine for me my final decision. :)

I don't like giving up any more parking for Camden Yards, it sucks already!
But, that wuold be ideal for me. I like the way Philly has set up there entertainment-sports complex.

No question, the parking's better in Philly. Tailgating's better in Baltimore, though: more overpasses to hang out under when it's raining or (as with the NCAA men's lacrosse championships) too sunny. One thing I like in Baltimore is being able to walk to Federal Hill and the harbor.

Given how badly two out of three of our pro sports franchises are doing, I'm coming around to the idea of building it at the Lexington Market site (http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&addtohistory=&address=W%20Lexington%20St%20%26%20N%20Paca%20St&city=Baltimore&state=MD&zipcode=21201&country=US&geodiff=1) (I'm assuming this would mean demo-ing the smaller, smellier west market and garage). That site's just across Saratoga Street from the St. Jude Shrine (http://www.stjudeshrine.org/).

No question, the parking's better in Philly. Tailgating's better in Baltimore, though: more overpasses to hang out under when it's raining or (as with the NCAA men's lacrosse championships) too sunny. One thing I like in Baltimore is being able to walk to Federal Hill and the harbor.

Yeah, Philly is great for parking and tailgating but it's pretty much just a ton of open space near nothing, which does nothing for the area, especially for basketball and hockey since those are not tailgating sports. It's a long walk in Philly to get to anything from their sports complex. The one good thing about it is there is a subway stop right there.

Baltimore's is perfect because the football stadium is still close enough where you can walk to a ton of places but at the same time can sit off by itself because of the tailgating atmosphere that creates. The baseball stadium sits right near a bunch of bars which and the rest of downtown, which is perfect. Parking for games is really not a problem. There are plenty of street spots by the warehouses and a ton of garages in walking distance. I wouldn't want a huge parking lot surroudning the stadium for many reasons, one of which is the difficulty in parking and then leaving the game and the other is the amount of wasteful open space it would use up much of the year.

Yeah, Philly is great for parking and tailgating but it's pretty much just a ton of open space near nothing, which does nothing for the area, especially for basketball and hockey since those are not tailgating sports. It's a long walk in Philly to get to anything from their sports complex. The one good thing about it is there is a subway stop right there.

Baltimore's is perfect because the football stadium is still close enough where you can walk to a ton of places but at the same time can sit off by itself because of the tailgating atmosphere that creates. The baseball stadium sits right near a bunch of bars which and the rest of downtown, which is perfect. Parking for games is really not a problem. There are plenty of street spots by the warehouses and a ton of garages in walking distance. I wouldn't want a huge parking lot surroudning the stadium for many reasons, one of which is the difficulty in parking and then leaving the game and the other is the amount of wasteful open space it would use up much of the year.

Philly has plans to develop that open space. They have some bars and restaurants in the complex now but look to do significantly more over the next few years.

Gateway south is the best location for a new arena, IMO. Canton/Hale, for these two reasons, is not doing it for me.

1. It's too far away from the benefits of the Camden Yards Sports Complex.

2. Anything less then a seating capacity of 18,000, just ain't going to cut it.

Maybe a merger of Gateway South and Lot O creates a "super entertainment and sports district." Nice.[/QUOTE]

This is what i'm thinking, too.

Philly has plans to develop that open space. They have some bars and restaurants in the complex now but look to do significantly more over the next few years.

Cool. Any links? Couldn't find any, but while I was looking, I found this article from Los Angeles Downtown News.com on the impact of "LA Live" posted by "Westsidelife":

November 26, 2007
The Convention Business Comeback

Tapping Momentum From L.A. Live and a 1,001-Room Hotel, Downtown Is Finally Booking Major Conferences

by Evan George

One hazy morning in June, as political and business leaders stood under an unlikely outdoor chandelier at the groundbreaking of the Convention Center hotel, they were doing more than just posing for a photo op. They were there to build buzz and hopefully kick start the city's moribund convention industry.

Five months later, tourism officials say the plan is working, thanks in large part to the construction of the $900 million hotel, the centerpiece of Anschutz Entertainment Group's $2.5 billion L.A. Live project (the first phase, the Nokia Theatre, opened in October). Since the groundbreaking ceremony alone, officials have landed as many new conferences as were signed in a one-year period starting in July 2004. More than 40 were booked this past year.

"Once the shovel went into the ground, that was when everything started to go, 'Yippee ka-yay,' and everyone started to get excited," said Michael Krause, senior vice president of sales for L.A. Inc., the city's convention and visitors bureau. "There's such a draw now to come Downtown."

That draw is largely the 54-story, 1,001-room hotel under construction in the middle of L.A. Live. Envisioned as the linchpin of the flashy new district, which will also include theaters, restaurants, a movieplex and more, the glass-clad complex will house an 878-room JW Marriott and a 123-room Ritz-Carlton topped with 224 luxury condominiums. (More...) (http://www.downtownnews.com/articles/2007/11/26/news/news01.txt)

Cool. Any links? Couldn't find any, but while I was looking, I found this article from Los Angeles Downtown News.com on the impact of "LA Live" posted by "Westsidelife":

November 26, 2007
The Convention Business Comeback

Tapping Momentum From L.A. Live and a 1,001-Room Hotel, Downtown Is Finally Booking Major Conferences

by Evan George

One hazy morning in June, as political and business leaders stood under an unlikely outdoor chandelier at the groundbreaking of the Convention Center hotel, they were doing more than just posing for a photo op. They were there to build buzz and hopefully kick start the city's moribund convention industry.

Five months later, tourism officials say the plan is working, thanks in large part to the construction of the $900 million hotel, the centerpiece of Anschutz Entertainment Group's $2.5 billion L.A. Live project (the first phase, the Nokia Theatre, opened in October). Since the groundbreaking ceremony alone, officials have landed as many new conferences as were signed in a one-year period starting in July 2004. More than 40 were booked this past year.

"Once the shovel went into the ground, that was when everything started to go, 'Yippee ka-yay,' and everyone started to get excited," said Michael Krause, senior vice president of sales for L.A. Inc., the city's convention and visitors bureau. "There's such a draw now to come Downtown."

That draw is largely the 54-story, 1,001-room hotel under construction in the middle of L.A. Live. Envisioned as the linchpin of the flashy new district, which will also include theaters, restaurants, a movieplex and more, the glass-clad complex will house an 878-room JW Marriott and a 123-room Ritz-Carlton topped with 224 luxury condominiums. (More...) (http://www.downtownnews.com/articles/2007/11/26/news/news01.txt)

I read it somewhere. Give me a moment and I'll find it.

Cool. Any links? Couldn't find any, but while I was looking, I found this article from Los Angeles Downtown News.com on the impact of "LA Live" posted by "Westsidelife":

November 26, 2007
The Convention Business Comeback

Tapping Momentum From L.A. Live and a 1,001-Room Hotel, Downtown Is Finally Booking Major Conferences

by Evan George

One hazy morning in June, as political and business leaders stood under an unlikely outdoor chandelier at the groundbreaking of the Convention Center hotel, they were doing more than just posing for a photo op. They were there to build buzz and hopefully kick start the city's moribund convention industry.

Five months later, tourism officials say the plan is working, thanks in large part to the construction of the $900 million hotel, the centerpiece of Anschutz Entertainment Group's $2.5 billion L.A. Live project (the first phase, the Nokia Theatre, opened in October). Since the groundbreaking ceremony alone, officials have landed as many new conferences as were signed in a one-year period starting in July 2004. More than 40 were booked this past year.

"Once the shovel went into the ground, that was when everything started to go, 'Yippee ka-yay,' and everyone started to get excited," said Michael Krause, senior vice president of sales for L.A. Inc., the city's convention and visitors bureau. "There's such a draw now to come Downtown."

That draw is largely the 54-story, 1,001-room hotel under construction in the middle of L.A. Live. Envisioned as the linchpin of the flashy new district, which will also include theaters, restaurants, a movieplex and more, the glass-clad complex will house an 878-room JW Marriott and a 123-room Ritz-Carlton topped with 224 luxury condominiums. (More...) (http://www.downtownnews.com/articles/2007/11/26/news/news01.txt)

Good article. I'm sure BACVA would love to see this type of impact. Considering the city has 3,000 hotel rooms coming on board in the next few years, they are praying for this type of spike. Goes to show you, you cannot underestimate the importance of multiple entertainment districts and hotel rooms within close proximity to a convention center.

Regarding Philly....Interesting....see below...



Arena complex project mulled
Philadelphia Business Journal - by Natalie Kostelni Staff Writer

Comcast-Spectacor is inching closer to devising plans to develop the area around the Wachovia Center and Wachovia Spectrum in South Philadelphia, which has long been eyed for a mixed-use project that would capitalize on the two sports arenas' location and foot traffic.

Peter Luukko, president for Comcast-Spectacor Ventures, and John Page, chief operating office for Global Spectrum, Comcast-Spectacor's facility management operations, met in St. Louis late last month with Blake Cordish to discuss development opportunities surrounding the two facilities.

Cordish is the vice president of development of the Cordish Co., a Baltimore development company that specializes in mixed-use districts that complement and incorporate major sports venues. Cordish was in St. Louis attending a conference about such venues as vehicles for additional development.

Ike Richman, spokesman for Comcast-Spectacor, said the organization wasn't going to comment at this time but confirmed that Luukko did meet Cordish in St. Louis to discuss development opportunities. The meeting was initially reported in the Sports Business Journal, a sister publication of the Philadelphia Business Journal.

The Wachovia Center and Wachovia Spectrum host 400 events annually that attract 4 million visitors. The two centers sit on 74 acres. The area also has two other major anchors with Lincoln Financial Field and Citizens Bank Park.

A mixed-use development, which could include retail, entertainment, office and residential uses, would be able to tag onto the constant stream of events and people attending them, as well as highway access to the area. It would also be a way to not only give attendees a place to linger before and after games or concerts, but a place where people who weren't going to a game could visit year round.

It would essentially establish a destination that would go beyond the cluster of sports venues, and would reshape that part of South Philadelphia into what Ed Snider, chairman of Comcast-Spectacor, has called a "city within the city."

Plans for developing the area surrounding the stadiums have been bandied about before. At one point, in 2000, Ron Rubin, CEO of Pennsylvania Real Estate Investment Trust, floated the idea of constructing an office building, retail space, restaurants and an ice skating rink there.

The sports complex sits on a total of 290 acres of which the actual stadiums occupy 62. The balance is being used by nonpublic facilities and parking. What land Comcast-Spectacor controls and would explore using for a mixed use project hasn't been disclosed.

The idea of creating a critical mass in and around stadiums has gained in popularity over the years.

The St. Louis Cardinals retained Cordish to develop a $450 million complex called Ball Park Village on land that was used by the former Busch Stadium. It will be across the street from the baseball team's new stadium. Ball Park Village will include 450,000 square feet of retail and entertainment space, 1,200 residential units, and 400,000 square feet of office space in a district that will cover six blocks.

Cordish is also developing a $310 million entertainment district at the Woodbine Racetrack in Toronto. The project includes cinemas, a multipurpose live entertainment hall as well as space for retail, restaurants and hotels.

Closer to the Delaware Valley, Wilmington is one of the few cities that has successfully spawned development around a stadium. It used Frawley Stadium, home of the Wilmington Blue Rocks minor league baseball team, as one of the focal points of development along the city's waterfront. Retail, restaurants, cultural and other attractions have been developed around the stadium and along the Christina and Brandywine rivers.

nkostelni@bizjournals.com | 215-238-5139

It is interesting. :yes:

Yeah -- I don't want Baltimore's sports complex to become what Philly's is now. I want Bmore's to be what Philly's will be in 5-10 years.

56. 56! Am I counting correctly? :D
56 poll answers. Does that mean to say that there are 56 of us Baltimore forumers now? Are some forumers that voted not part of the regular Baltimore Development group? :? :hm:
I would love to see names/nicks to these poll answers. :yes:

Cool. Any links? Couldn't find any, but while I was looking, I found this article from Los Angeles Downtown News.com on the impact of "LA Live" posted by "Westsidelife":

November 26, 2007
The Convention Business Comeback

Tapping Momentum From L.A. Live and a 1,001-Room Hotel, Downtown Is Finally Booking Major Conferences

by Evan George

One hazy morning in June, as political and business leaders stood under an unlikely outdoor chandelier at the groundbreaking of the Convention Center hotel, they were doing more than just posing for a photo op. They were there to build buzz and hopefully kick start the city's moribund convention industry.

Five months later, tourism officials say the plan is working, thanks in large part to the construction of the $900 million hotel, the centerpiece of Anschutz Entertainment Group's $2.5 billion L.A. Live project (the first phase, the Nokia Theatre, opened in October). Since the groundbreaking ceremony alone, officials have landed as many new conferences as were signed in a one-year period starting in July 2004. More than 40 were booked this past year.

"Once the shovel went into the ground, that was when everything started to go, 'Yippee ka-yay,' and everyone started to get excited," said Michael Krause, senior vice president of sales for L.A. Inc., the city's convention and visitors bureau. "There's such a draw now to come Downtown."

That draw is largely the 54-story, 1,001-room hotel under construction in the middle of L.A. Live. Envisioned as the linchpin of the flashy new district, which will also include theaters, restaurants, a movieplex and more, the glass-clad complex will house an 878-room JW Marriott and a 123-room Ritz-Carlton topped with 224 luxury condominiums. (More...) (http://www.downtownnews.com/articles/2007/11/26/news/news01.txt)

Makes me realize how impressive National Harbor is.

56. 56! Am I counting correctly? :D
56 poll answers. Does that mean to say that there are 56 of us Baltimore forumers now? Are some forumers that voted not part of the regular Baltimore Development group? :? :hm:
I would love to see names/nicks to these poll answers. :yes:
i'm sure MOST of the voters are from this area. wow, impressive!:okay:

56. 56! Am I counting correctly? :D
56 poll answers. Does that mean to say that there are 56 of us Baltimore forumers now? Are some forumers that voted not part of the regular Baltimore Development group? :? :hm:
I would love to see names/nicks to these poll answers. :yes:

Not to rain on the parade, but this poll allowed for multiple selections. I voted for both the current site and GS...:)

56. 56! Am I counting correctly? :D
56 poll answers. Does that mean to say that there are 56 of us Baltimore forumers now? Are some forumers that voted not part of the regular Baltimore Development group? :? :hm:
I would love to see names/nicks to these poll answers. :yes:

Yeah, I set the poll up for multiple options. Forty-four unique responses so far. I (or anyone else who's inclined) can set up another poll that allows one choice and identifies nicknames/avatars/etc. with the choice. I was also thinking I'd drop the four or five lowest vote-getters. Thoughts?

Yeah, I set the poll up for multiple options. Forty-four unique responses so far. I (or anyone else who's inclined) can set up another poll that allows one choice and identifies nicknames/avatars/etc. with the choice. I was also thinking I'd drop the four or five lowest vote-getters. Thoughts?

Go for it!

FYI, only 45 voters. (It's at the bottom of the results.)

Canton

FYI, only 45 voters. (It's at the bottom of the results.)

The total vote count is not matching up with the individual count on the right where the %ages are. :no: :ohno: :nuts: :bash:

(im a new baltimorian to the forum, and it seems like the city is well represented here) I agree with the no less then 18k butttt, you need to realize cost structuring for an arena, the cost for 16k is for example like 150million and then to make that jump to 18k you add another 150m to the cost because the structure requires adding the area for skyboxes and other structural components(raise the roof) to a much larger building.

That being said, build it where there is public transportation first and formost(1-6&9), and somewhere that is going to bring up an area that doesnt already have a ton of development coming in(5,6,7,9). i think and voted for 5,6,9.

^^ Good points.

Too bad the opportunity cost of the opportunity lost by building too small won't make it onto the construction spread sheet.

Or, put another way, can't put a dollar value on _not_ banging our heads against a wall for _another_ 45 years because we built something that was functionally obsolete the day it opened. Again.

I think a new arena in canton would compliment Canton Crossing nicely.

^^ Good points.

Too bad the opportunity cost of the opportunity lost by building too small won't make it onto the construction spread sheet.

Or, put another way, can't put a dollar value on _not_ banging our heads against a wall for _another_ 45 years because we built something that was functionally obsolete the day it opened. Again.

The fact that the city mothers and fathers are investigating KC gives me hope that they are now considering a larger arena than the study recommends....

:banana:

The total vote count is not matching up with the individual count on the right where the %ages are. :no: :ohno: :nuts: :bash:

It's a multiple choice poll -- it shouldn't match. 51 voters made 65 votes. :)

Therefore, I think I like the Lexington Market idea surprisingly, so long as it's for the better of the historic market. I can envision a Verizon Center like change happening over in that area and a boost to Lexington Market. It could help further develop the west side and spur more projects.


I concur, I am just concerned it may put many of the vendors out of business due to a raise in land value and leasing cost.

I would hate to see Faidley's replaced by Phillips.

Nothing too far south though, we need a tight and compact CBD and downtown.

It's a multiple choice poll -- it shouldn't match. 51 voters made 65 votes. :)

That's because the poll isn't smart enough to force you to make just once choice.

1st Mariner Arena: Still rockin’ Baltimore

Filed under: BALTIMORE , Andrew Cannarsa , Special Report - 1st Mariner Arena

(Kristine Buls/Examiner)
Now in its 46th year, the 1st Mariner Arena opened as the Baltimore Civic Center in 1962. Feb 5, 2008 3:00 AM (7 hrs ago) by Andrew Cannarsa, The Examiner
BALTIMORE (Map, News) - The posters hang side by side on the conference room wall, telling a story of longevity.

The first, faded and worn: “Nov. 13, 1965 — Direct from England, The Rolling Stones, Only U.S. Tour this Year.” Ticket prices: $1.75 to $4.50.

The second, crisp and colorful: “Feb. 1, 2006 — The Rolling Stones, A Bigger Bang Tour.” Ticket prices: $62 to $162, “Gold Circle” seats cost $402.

Consider also, “1964, The Tribute” — a Beatles knockoff band — played the 1st Mariner Arena last year at $25 a ticket. The originals in 1964 commanded a top price of $3.75.

Two wildly different eras. But the same Baltimore arena hosting the same timeless rock band.

For all the criticisms of the city’s 1st Mariner Arena (originally the Baltimore Civic Center and previously the Baltimore Arena), there’s no arguing the aging facility has played host to some of history’s most influential rockers, speakers and athletes — and for almost a half-century.

The Stones. MLK. Wilt the Stilt. The Fab Four. Frank. “Sugar” Ray. The King.

The list goes on and on. In its 46th year of operation, the arena continues to book the big names, ignoring the calls for developers to bring its replacement — a new, state-of-the-art venue — to Baltimore.

In the same conference room, tucked beneath the north-end seating at 1st Mariner, framed glossy photos of U2’s Bono, Hilary Duff and The Rolling Stones’ Mick Jagger hang not far from the two Stones posters.

Christel Watts, the arena’s marketing manager, looked over the old and new photos and said, “We like to say, ‘1st Mariner Arena: Still making history.’ ”

Beatlemania and a glorious past

The 11,000-seat Baltimore Civic Center opened in 1962, costing $14 million to construct, according to newspaper reports. The facility’s first event was a Baltimore Clippers American Hockey League game.

The Civic Center brought to Baltimore big-time sporting events, family shows and concerts, including the biggest act in the world at the time — The Beatles.

Brooks Nobel, a Baltimore native, was 11 when Beatlemania swept though North America in 1964. John, Paul, George and Ringo were on their first American tour and played two shows at the Civic Center — one at 2:30 p.m. and one at 8 p.m. — on Sunday, Sept. 13, 1964. Tickets were $2, $3 and $3.75. Nobel saw both shows and still has the ticket stubs.

“It was the epitome of excitement,” Nobel said. “The whole place just went crazy. Everyone was on their feet. I could hardly hear the performance — that’s how loud it was.”

Nobel saw the show with her older sister, Bunny, and the two even stayed at the Holiday Inn near the arena, where The Beatles spent the night. The sisters saw the Fab Four leave the hotel and get into their limousine.

With a little help from hotel security, Nobel and her sister slipped into The Beatles’ hotel room, grabbing some priceless Beatles paraphernalia — leftover toast and a fork covered with egg.

About 15 years later, Nobel’s mother actually trashed the Beatles’ hotel leftovers. Today, Nobel wishes she hadn’t — “Imagine on eBay what that would go for now,” she said.

Nobel still thinks of the arena “as the Civic Center.” She still remembers seeing her other favorite acts — The Dave Clark Five and The Beach Boys.

“It was exciting because it was a big place, and the architecture at the time was quite contemporary,” Nobel said. “I have very fond memories and would be sad to see it go.”

Michael Maltese, a 59-year-old Baltimore native, was at the same Beatles show and remembered the concert being “very loud, because there were lots of screaming girls.” The arena was a big part of Maltese’s life — he photographed some of the most popular musicians who played the arena in the late ’60s and early ’70s, such as The Doors, Rod Stewart and Neil Young.

“Every month, there was something big — a big rock concert,” Maltese said. “It was a great place locally for people in Baltimore to see a lot of entertaining acts. All of a sudden, all of these events the city had been missing came in to play.”

Those events included performances by The Rolling Stones, Elvis Presley, Bob Dylan, Frank Sinatra, The Supremes, Bill Cosby and Johnny Carson. NBA greats Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain played there, and Sugar Ray Leonard’s first pro fight was there. Martin Luther King Jr. spoke there.

Don Hutchinson, a 62-year-old Baltimore native who is the interim president and chief executive officer of the Maryland Zoo in Baltimore, watched several Baltimore Bullets and Clippers games from the arena stands as a young adult.

“The Clippers were a minor league hockey team, and I remembered that watching them made me realize that I didn’t like hockey too much,” Hutchinson said, laughing. “It was a decent place to watch basketball, though.”

Hutchinson, however, said he wouldn’t miss the arena if it’s soon replaced. When the venue was renovated in 1986 and renamed the Baltimore Arena as a centerpiece of the Inner Harbor development, Hutchinson said the city’s money “wasn’t well spent.”

“The arena always had poor sight lines and sound,” Hutchinson said. “I don’t know if it will have a tremendous legacy in Baltimore.”

Rolling into the future

Framed performance photos of Jagger, Mary J. Blige, Brad Paisley and Martina McBride hang on the wall of Frank Remesch’s 1st Mariner office.

“It shows how diverse we are — you have a little bit of everything,” said Remesch, the arena’s general manager in charge of booking arena events.

When the subject of a new arena in Baltimore comes up, Remesch points to his wall calendar for the month of March. The arena is scheduled to host 30 events in 31 days, from family shows to sporting events to concerts.

“Last year was the most profitable in the arena’s history, and we’ll probably double it this year,” Remesch said. “There’s a lot of talk about a new building. If you put on the right event, people will come see it.”

The Rolling Stones helped build the arena’s credibility in the 1960s with three shows. They did the same in 2006, bringing their world tour to 1st Mariner.

“When we got The Rolling Stones, that was the start for us,” Remesch said. “We’ve found our niche. We’ve proven we can sell, and we’ve proven we can deliver.”

That “niche” has helped 1st Mariner reinvent itself, said Jamie Curtis, the arena’s marketing director. Fewer acts these days can fill 20,000-seat venues and are looking to play smaller arenas. 1st Mariner event capacities range from 11,000 to 14,000 people.

“We’re still getting the big shows — Hannah Montana [aka Miley Cyrus, who played 1st Mariner in January] is a perfect example,” Curtis said. “Talk of a new arena is frustrating, because we continue to bring in the biggest shows. We support a new arena 100 percent, but we also support this arena.”

In the last several years, Elton John, Dylan, Britney Spears, U2, Cher, Usher, Jay-Z and the Eagles have all played 1st Mariner. Remesch is confident he can continue to book those high-level acts, just as the arena did 40 years ago.

“Yeah, it’s an older building,” Remesch said, “but the prettiest arena is one with no empty seats.”

It happened at the 1st Mariner Arena

» Sugar Ray Leonard’s second pro fight — May 14, 1977 — ended in a not-even-close six-round decision over Willie “Fireball” Rodriquez.

» Oscar Robertson led the East to a 123-112 victory over the West in the 1969 NBA All-Star Game. Robertson played for a team that no longer exists — the Cincinnati Royals.

» In 1968, The Beach Boys performed. Meditation guru Maharishi Mahesh Yogi spoke between sets and was laughed off the stage — rose petals and all — after only 10 minutes.

» Elvis Presley shook the venue twice — 1971 and 1977; so did The Beatles — 2:30 and 8 p.m. Sept. 13, 1964.

» Radio star Johnny Dark’s Beatles introduction was never heard; the screams were too loud.

» The Soviet Union’s gold-medal-winning basketball team played the college all-stars in a rematch of their controversial 1972 Olympic final. Alexander Belov and the Reds won again.

» Hans Mortier had three shots at rasslin’ champ Bruno Sammartino in the summer of 1963 and — no surprise — lost all three times.

» The Who opened for Herman’s Hermits in 1967. That’s not a misprint.

» It hasn’t been all rock ’n’ roll — legendary tenor Luciano Pavarotti filled the place in 1986.

» The Rolling Stones, who played for two hours at the 2006 show, lasted only 20 minutes in 1965. A fan rushed the stage, the curtain came down, and the police told everyone to go home. In 1966, The McCoys — “Hang On Sloopy” — opened for Mick and the boys.

» Britney Spears, Bob Dylan, Elton John and the Miss USA Pageant. A lot of memories for a lot of folks.

acannarsa@baltimoreexaminer.com

^^ That's nice and all, but it still has to go... :soon:

i just looked over in the "mid-atlantic and northeast" thread.......


TINY hartford, connecticut may possibly get a 19,000-seat arena (below). there's NO reason why we can't get one of equal size or bigger. we're a city of a little bit more than 640,000 people and we're strugglin' to get a decent-sized arena. something's wrong with that picture. sad.:(:(:(

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2092/2238418707_3497d7bde7_o.jpg

i just looked over in the "mid-atlantic and northeast" thread.......


TINY hartford, connecticut may possibly get a 19,000-seat arena (below). there's NO reason why we can't get one of equal size or bigger. we're a city of a little bit more than 640,000 people and we're strugglin' to get a decent-sized arena. something's wrong with that picture. sad.:(:(:(

Seattle is a city of almost 600,000 people (in a metro area of 4 million), and we can't get a new arena going either, and we already have a basketball team to play in it.... It mostly has to do with us getting kinda pantsed on the new Mariners and Seahawks stadiums, and that we have transportation projects out the ying yang that need to be paid for, ...and the team being owned by a butt pirate who wont settle for anything less than a $500mil arena. But damn is it frustrating... and even moreso to see Hartford talking about an arena that seems to fill most of its CBD (holy crap is that thing big!)

^^yeah, seems like the smaller cities get all the "breaks". what a damn shame.:(

City adds two more spots to list of locales for new arena

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Parking lots between stadiums, Staples site also being considered

A new arena in Baltimore could be built at a location that was not among a list of city sites proposed by developers late last year.

Among those sites not proposed by developers that city officials have identified includes a 6.8-acre industrial site on Russell Street across from M&T Bank Stadium, home to a Staples retail store. Another site is parking lots B and C in the Camden Yards sports complex between Oriole Park and M&T Bank Stadium.

"At this point, everything's an option," said Kimberly A. Clark, executive vice president of the Baltimore Development Corp., the city's development arm. "There are a couple of sites that we'd like to further investigate."

Officials at Timonium's Hill Management Services Inc., property manager of the Russell Street warehouse that houses Staples, could not be reached for comment. Maryland Stadium Authority Chairman Frederick W. Puddester, whose organization oversees parking lots B and C, declined to comment.

http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/112647-300-0.jpg?rev=2

I don't really like the idea of an arena plopped in between OPACY and M&T. There would be no room for development around the arena.