Macedonia, Croatia, and Albania will be welcomed in NATO at 2008 Bucharest NATO Summit. Ukraine and Georgia will not be welcomed, but will be supported to further their eforts in joining NATO.

So, :cheers: for the new members :)

More at:

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=12091407&PageNum=0

Hmm,.Wellcome!

great news

Albania?? WTF?:ohno:

Macedonia, Croatia, and Albania will be welcomed in NATO at 2008 Bucharest NATO Summit. Ukraine and Georgia will not be welcomed, but will be supported to further their eforts in joining NATO.

So, :cheers: for the new members :)

More at:

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=12091407&PageNum=0

I think both Ukraine and Georgia should have been welcomed, as well. They both have pro-western governments.

I think both Ukraine and Georgia should have been welcomed, as well. They both have pro-western governments.

Isn't the majority of Ukrainians against joining NATO?

Albania?? WTF?:ohno:

yes albania!!! :cheers:

Good news guys! :okay:

Isn't the majority of Ukrainians against joining NATO?


Well, maybe, but not in a great majority. And, if I remember well, when other central european countries were welcomed, there were some countries where their majorities were also not in favour of joining.

All in all, I think the key issue here is strategic thinking:
1. the country's aspirations to the west through its government;
2. the country's strategic position and importance;
3. the possibilities to reform the country and put it on the western track for good.

I'm not sure that this is definite.

^ I've also read that only Croatia is confirmed. With Albania being almost certainly out of the question for now, and Macedonia half-half. Now I'm lost. :shifty:

^ I've also read that only Croatia is confirmed. With Albania being almost certainly out of the question for now, and Macedonia half-half. Now I'm lost. :shifty:

It's more like Croatia being sure entry and Macedonia and Albania almost sure entries, for different reasons though.

With Albania being almost certainly out of the question for now,

And why would that be?? lol

Here's the full text from the website:

NATO won’t make Ukraine, Georgia its members at Bucharest summit

20.11.2007, 19.08

BRUSSELS, November 20 (Itar-Tass) -- NATO will not admit Ukraine and Georgia to the organization at the Bucharest summit, a NATO diplomat said on Tuesday.

In his words, it is highly probable that the summit will admit three official candidate countries – Macedonia, Croatia and Albania – to the alliance. The candidates were named at the NATO summit in Riga last fall.

Meanwhile, the alliance will support the Euro-Atlantic ambitions of Ukraine and Georgia but will hardly upgrade their status to candidate states, he said.

Another NATO diplomat told Itar-Tass earlier that the latest events in Georgia – the suppression of opposition protests and the state of emergency – nullified the Georgian chances for entering into the alliance in the near future.

The enlargement will not be the key item of the Bucharest summit’s agenda. It will concentrate on the situation in Afghanistan, where the alliance has a shortage of personnel and military hardware. The size of the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan has exceeded 40,000 servicemen.

The summit will consider ways to continue the enlargement of the contingent in Afghanistan and the training of Afghan servicemen and policemen.

It is also planned to discuss the assistance to the suppression of opium production, which has been growing over the recent years. Currently, the ISAF mandate does not provide for such work.

Like I said, nothing sure ATM.

And why would that be?? lolI don't know, that's just what I read somewhere; can't remember where.

The stupid article can't even tell us when the Bucharest Summit is taking place.

The stupid article can't even tell us when the Bucharest Summit is taking place.

April 2008. Though I'm not sure of the exact day.

Like I said, nothing sure ATM.

Agreed. But the probability that we will receive invitations is very high.

Only 43% of Croats are in favour of joining NATO according to the last polls I found. It appears because of that the referendum will not take place (”not necessary” as stated by the government and president).

How’s with ALB and MAC?

Why would the other 57% not be in favor?

What about spending 1 billion euro on useless warships and another unknown ammount of money on new military transport planes while the teachers are on strike because their low salaries and the Government telling them "there are no enough money to raise your salaries, we should carry on strict financial policy, etc" ???

So I guess this is one good reason for not wanting to get involved in NATO games. Another one is the Kosovo issue and your NATO obligations in connection with that.

Another one is the Kosovo issue and your NATO obligations in connection with that.

That's what is so beatiful about NATO ;)

Why would the other 57% not be in favor?

Actually 40% is not in favour, the rest are undecided.

It’s a Croatian thing. We had our war here with a lot of deaths and now “we don’t want our boys getting killed for big countries’ benefits” (the most common sentence).

The same is with EU membership; the current support is below 50%. Here is another thing; we have worries about the idea of being a part of a multiethnic state (Yugoslavia, booo)

^^ May be very good for you but I don't feel happy when Bulgarians are sent somewhere to defend foreign interests.

^^ May be very good for you but I don't feel happy when Bulgarians are sent somewhere to defend foreign interests.

so you just want to benefit from the West, but not "defend foreign interests"?

What exactly do you mean by "benefit" ? Spending billions of dollars on military vehicles, having your relations with your biggest energy source fucked up, etc?

Yes, NATO is beneficial for it means political stability and that brings in foreign investments. And no, I prefer having the French position of member-observer status. These guys don't get involved in Bush' crazy campaigns and that's waaaay better than this.

What exactly do you mean by "benefit" ?

Isnt Bulgaria benefiting economically from its euro-atlantic integration?

Directly no, actually you spend on it, you don't get any money from being a NATO member. And you spend a lot.

Indirectly, it's very hard to say. Lots of investments, especially in real estate are due to the fact that they consider you "a stable" country. But the energy sector suffers because the Russians are not quite happy. And their energy exports are very well connected with politics. Don't you know we are building the most expensive nuclear plant with a new Russian technology now? More than 4 billion euro for 2000MW, heh...I bet this is due to some diplomatic moves the mere mortals are not elligible to know well..

BTW do you think USA (and NATO in particular) want an independant Kosovo just because of your beautiful blue (or whatever) eyes? Do you think that Bush gives a damn fuck about you? Kosovo is a prisoner of US-Russian relations, that's all. OK, you will enter NATO and the next time you have to keep up with your NATO obligations, your people will be sent somewhere in Iran to kill people there...you should be very proud of that, heh..

I think that Kosovo issue will be determining about everything here. Besides there are 6 months before teh Bucurest summit ... quite long time ...

What about spending 1 billion euro on useless warships and another unknown ammount of money on new military transport planes while the teachers are on strike because their low salaries and the Government telling them "there are no enough money to raise your salaries, we should carry on strict financial policy, etc" ???

So I guess this is one good reason for not wanting to get involved in NATO games. Another one is the Kosovo issue and your NATO obligations in connection with that.

Don't agree. The main reason to join NATO (if you are a European country) is to join the EU. This reason has been stated by some of our high politicians and political commentators (who I know don't speak rubbish), and it's also corroborated by the fact that every country that joined the EU was already a NATO member. So, leave aside the NATO costs (human and financial) and count the benefits: EU membership in the end, and the huge private investment that ensues immediately after NATO accession (stimulated by the EU membership perspective). Just look at the proposed countries and the countries which have been excluded outrightly and think about EU accession timframe, and you'll get a pretty good idea of the relationship between NATO membership and EU membership.

At least this was Romania's case. And I think it is invariably the rule.

BTW do you think USA (and NATO in particular) want an independant Kosovo just because of your beautiful blue (or whatever) eyes? Do you think that Bush gives a damn fuck about you? Kosovo is a prisoner of US-Russian relations, that's all. OK, you will enter NATO and the next time you have to keep up with your NATO obligations, your people will be sent somewhere in Iran to kill people there...you should be very proud of that, heh..

US, and Clinton administration risked alot when they decided to help Kosova...Bush involved himself actively too late, until recently (probably with other motives than Clinton) - at the same time Russia got involved with this aggresive position recently...With the Clinton administration - we would't be discussing "the Kosova issue" now, because it would have been settled long time ago...

However contributing to NATO, is not something new.. Albanians from Kosova are already giving contributions in Iraq and Afghanistan, as "volunteers" to the US Army.. I personally know a couple of them from Kosova.. And i certaintly dont mind to give much more contribution in the future as a NATO member.. The US is the only reason why everybody else is "giving a fu*ck" about Kosova...

Don't agree. The main reason to join NATO (if you are a European country) is to join the EU. This reason has been stated by some of our high politicians and political commentators (who I know don't speak rubbish), and it's also corroborated by the fact that every country that joined the EU was already a NATO member. So, leave aside the NATO costs (human and financial) and count the benefits: EU membership in the end, and the huge private investment that ensues immediately after NATO accession (stimulated by the EU membership perspective). Just look at the proposed countries and the countries which have been excluded outrightly and think about EU accession timframe, and you'll get a pretty good idea of the relationship between NATO membership and EU membership.

At least this was Romania's case. And I think it is invariably the rule.

exactly... well said :cheers:

BTW do you think USA (and NATO in particular) want an independant Kosovo just because of your beautiful blue (or whatever) eyes? Do you think that Bush gives a damn fuck about you? Kosovo is a prisoner of US-Russian relations, that's all. OK, you will enter NATO and the next time you have to keep up with your NATO obligations, your people will be sent somewhere in Iran to kill people there...you should be very proud of that, heh..
___________________________________________________________________

It's good to see that certain people are able to see past the black/white curtain.
Turnovec's statement rings quite true as well, at least when it comes to the ex-YU area. We can only wait and see.......

The US is the only reason why everybody else is "giving a fu*ck" about Kosova...

Word!! Thats a true fact, what goes for EU they talk, talk, talk and in the end call the US for help just as they did with Bosnia later Kosova.

BTW do you think USA (and NATO in particular) want an independant Kosovo just because of your beautiful blue (or whatever) eyes? Do you think that Bush gives a damn fuck about you? Kosovo is a prisoner of US-Russian relations, that's all. OK, you will enter NATO and the next time you have to keep up with your NATO obligations, your people will be sent somewhere in Iran to kill people there...you should be very proud of that, heh..


Meh...so what?

NATO helped Albanians in Kosova. We will gladly send a few of our boys anywhere they are needed. We know how to repay a favor...

And there's Russia too. Better join NATO...then have to deal with the wonderful neighbours we have around us.

For Albania its not even an issue what to support.

Only 43% of Croats are in favour of joining NATO according to the last polls I found. It appears because of that the referendum will not take place (”not necessary” as stated by the government and president).

How’s with ALB and MAC?

rather high in Macedonia above 90% for both EU and NATO. Considering the neighborhood we live in both are seen as keys to our long term security and wellbeing at least until the region matures a bit more and there are no needs for guardians.

rather high in Macedonia above 90% for both EU and NATO. Considering the neighborhood we live in both are seen as keys to our long term security and wellbeing at least until the region matures a bit more and there are no needs for guardians.
^^
There is no reason why all Balkan counties can't join NATO....They should. It would make the neighborhood a more secure place.....However, if I was in charge of Greece, I would make sure that there is a permanent solutions with issues with certain countries such as the name dispute with your's, and for Turkey (already in NATO) a permanent solution to other issues as a key in supporting their entrance into the EU.

rather high in Macedonia above 90% for both EU and NATO. Considering the neighborhood we live in both are seen as keys to our long term security and wellbeing at least until the region matures a bit more and there are no needs for guardians.

Considering the demographic statistics of Macedonia, I think that the country will commit a spiritual suicide if it joins NATO & EU before solving its inner problems.Unfortunately, the politicians do nothing to stop the catastrophical changing of the population and the country steadily becomes a timebomb which will explode with enormous power in near future.

^^
There is no reason why all Balkan counties can't join NATO....They should. It would make the neighborhood a more secure place.....However, if I was in charge of Greece, I would make sure that there is a permanent solutions with issues with certain countries such as the name dispute with your's, and for Turkey (already in NATO) a permanent solution to other issues as a key in supporting their entrance into the EU.

Blocking us to NATO would be one of the worse things Greece can do regarding the regional security ATM. I understand how you see this as your chance to set things straight (from your own perspective) but you will make things much worse. I don't see how the solution to a bilateral issue between two countries should be a precondition to join international organizations, especially the EU where the conditions are clear (Copenhagen criteria).
I understand U have the means to block us (although U formally obliged Urself U won't block us in EU/NATO because of the name dispute many years ago) but it won't get you anywhere IMO. It's beyond me how you don't realize yet that the bullying politics U used for the past 15 years has led you in this situation where U have to beg us for a complex name (while only 12 years ago when our politicians were ready for it you categorically rejected it) or that a big chunk of this problem was artificially created as a reflexive response to this bullying politics. Using veto for such a trivial reason would probably make your position weaker internationally regarding the name issue further on but perhaps other affairs as well.

This is how I see the whole thing politically, so let's not expand the discussion to the regular ancient maps, quotes, 'who was here first crap' etc stuff, I don't think we have nothing new to say on that.

:cheers:

EDIT: One thing I agree though. I'm for permanent solutions too, I'm tired of issues being recycled over and over again even when they seem to be closed already. However I don't think we (the nations of the regions) are mature yet for reaching such solutions.

Considering the demographic statistics of Macedonia, I think that the country will commit a spiritual suicide if it joins NATO & EU before solving its inner problems.Unfortunately, the politicians do nothing to stop the catastrophical changing of the population and the country steadily becomes a timebomb which will explode with enormous power in near future.

I've read your post regarding these issues before and in the politest way I can only say you look at the things surfacial and without any empiric backing. U are of course referring to the eventual ethnic recomposition of the country which is nothing more than a myth. True the country has recomposed in the past to a certain point but things have changed already and according to any statistical approximation the ratio between Macedonians-Albanians will probably get to 60:30 (in opposing tot he 65:25 from the time being). Young Macedonian Albanians are emancipating fast (the women too) and they are not on a breeding frenzy anymore. The further shift of the ratio will only come as a consequence that Albanians have younger average age than Macedonians and not because they still have enormous growth rates.

Ivailo, I think it's just the opposite. Macedonia quite badly needs to be in NATO because it needs stability right now (they have Kosovo at its border, they have some issues with criminals from Kosovo, etc). And it needs EU cause otherwise its economy is going to die...literarily. Having access to a large free market and foreign investors having easy access to Macedonian economy, the country will prosper.

Unfortunately, I've seen there is some kind of anti-EU and anti-NATO campaign in Macedonia I can't quite understand. Perhaps the old oligarchs are somehow afraid. Looks like dejavu..

BTW unlike EU, I think in NATO you need a majority vote to be accepted, so Greece cannot have veto.

Besides, the Greeks are not stupid people and they know best that there is not point in having poor unstable neighbours that will always hate them. So I don't think they are going to stop Macedonia. I think they are now just getting profits from the current situation cause they are in a position to do so. But I don't think they'd go too far and risk it all..

BTW, Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey will most certainly support Macedonia. And yeah...there will be quite lots of opposition coming from Serbia and Russia...but they cannot change anything after all...even Russia.

Ivailo, I think it's just the opposite. Macedonia quite badly needs to be in NATO because it needs stability right now (they have Kosovo at its border, they have some issues with criminals from Kosovo, etc). And it needs EU cause otherwise its economy is going to die...literarily. Having access to a large free market and foreign investors having easy access to Macedonian economy, the country will prosper.


The lack of free market is just an excuse for failures. We need a more competitive economy and we need the EU as a sign of stability which will create better grounds for more investments. We already have free trade agreements with much of the region and with the EU as well AFAIK. We are not using the full capacity of the existing agreements which means it's our economy and products where the problem lies and not something else. On the contrary the current preaccession agreement protects our economy to be completely crushed by the more competitive western products lets say while we are free to export ours. Full EU membership will force us to completely open up. That's why (too) fast EU integration for Macedonia would be counterproductive for us.

For the NATO part I fully agree, the still existent radical structures are the only real danger to Macedonia and a potential NATO membership will probably neutralize them.

Unfortunately, I've seen there is some kind of anti-EU and anti-NATO campaign in Macedonia I can't quite understand. Perhaps the old oligarchs are somehow afraid. Looks like dejavu..

it's beyond me where have U seen this. If there is anything there is a national consensus, inter ethnic consensus, political consensus in the country it is EU and NATO.

BTW unlike EU, I think in NATO you need a majority vote to be accepted, so Greece cannot have veto.

Besides, the Greeks are not stupid people and they know best that there is not point in having poor unstable neighbours that will always hate them. So I don't think they are going to stop Macedonia. I think they are now just getting profits from the current situation cause they are in a position to do so. But I don't think they'd go too far and risk it all..

BTW, Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey will most certainly support Macedonia. And yeah...there will be quite lots of opposition coming from Serbia and Russia...but they cannot change anything after all...even Russia.

I'm not sure about this. I'm also sure that Greek politicians are aware of the consequences of the veto, but they took it too far already they riled up the people. Letting us get away will probably mean a political suicide on the short term for Nea Demokratia.

And we have the support already from everybody not just the hood countries. It's just Greece that can mess it up this time. And ourselves of course considering our politicians have been acting like idiots in the past year.

OK, but let's say Greece are just trying their best and I think everyone would do the same in their position, they just want to do what's needed for them

I don't think Greece will stop MK. MK is their neighbour after all. And besides, Greece is a bad NATO member, I mean, they don't always play fair with the Great Democratic Uberstates :)

And why do I think there is some kind of campaign...well, I sometimes read Utrinski and the user comments in some articles...and that forum we've discussed....anyway, there is a thread about that there:

http://forum.kajgana.com/showthread.php?t=17885

OK, but let's say Greece are just trying their best and I think everyone would do the same in their position, they just want to do what's needed for them

I understand Greece... it's politics after all...


I don't think Greece will stop MK. MK is their neighbour after all. And besides, Greece is a bad NATO member, I mean, they don't always play fair with the Great Democratic Uberstates :)

hm, I think that being neighbors means nothing in the case, they already pulled those sanctions against us in the 90s in a period much more critical than this one. I'm ready for anything.

And why do I think there is some kind of campaign...well, I sometimes read Utrinski and the user comments in some articles...and that forum we've discussed....anyway, there is a thread about that there:

it's like you are seeking for these things guys... Couple of retards on a forum and opinion of some columnist (they have the right on that don't they) doesn't mean anything... EU/NATO path has been determined for us long long time ago.

True the country has recomposed in the past to a certain point but things have changed already and according to any statistical approximation the ratio between Macedonians-Albanians will probably get to 60:30 (in opposing tot he 65:25 from the time being).

:nono:

It's already past that my friend. :)

:nono:

It's already past that my friend. :)

:blahblah:

Now why would Serbia or Russia block Macedonia's entry into anything?:?
Macedonia is an ally of Serbia, hell their armed/special forces get the latest Serbian weaponry before its even introduced in Serbia itself.

So please.

Oh yea 1 more thing, if its 25-65 now, and when will it be 30-60? Just wondering. :lol:

Yes, but when you have lots of people thinking the same way and telling the same things and even journalists frequently giving them all those ideas...that means there should be some kind of campaign. After all, nothing in this world happens without a reason. And provided the fact that even the dumb advertising agencies consider the Internet (I mean blogs and forums) as a powerful target for promoting their bullshits...well dunno, but I conclude that someone in Macedonia is trying to make a promo marketing campaign in favour of some wretched idea...

Now why would Serbia or Russia block Macedonia's entry into anything?:?
Macedonia is an ally of Serbia, hell their armed/special forces get the latest Serbian weaponry before its even introduced in Serbia itself.
So please.

I remember you guys bashing us for letting the NATO planes pass thru our air space to bomb your country...and you were perhaps right...and then we were not even NATO members.

Are you going to be happy when...errr let's say Kosovo issues become an international military conflict again. In that case, your Macedonian allies (then already a NATO member) must not only provide air space but also help NATO to attack Serbia. So it's that simple IMO..

Yes, but when you have lots of people thinking the same way and telling the same things and even journalists frequently giving them all those ideas...that means there should be some kind of campaign. After all, nothing in this world happens without a reason. And provided the fact that even the dumb advertising agencies consider the Internet (I mean blogs and forums) as a powerful target for promoting their bullshits...well dunno, but I conclude that someone in Macedonia is trying to make a promo marketing campaign in favour of some wretched idea...

I read all the national daily newspapers everyday more or less. I pretty much follow what's going on in the key magazines as well as well as the TV stations (it's a professional deformation from my previous job). There is nothing of what you say even on small scale let alone in a shape of a campaign. The occasional "alternative" viewpoint is merely a statistical error in the flood of pro EU/NATO articles. Of course there are sometimes critical articles over EU/NATO but that's not anti anything.

for the zilion time. Stop reading Kajgana :D

Oh yea 1 more thing, if its 25-65 now, and when will it be 30-60? Just wondering. :lol:

You can't be emancipated and prosperous while having Saudi reproduction rates. Albanians in Macedonia are surely shifting towards the first choice very fast. I know loonies like you don't like it, but that doesn't mean shit in real life.

^^
The country is already ours, I don't have to like or dislike anything silly. :cheers:

^^ Who are you and what are you trying to claim, you sick man?!? It's the 21st century you know and the ethnic-nationalistic idea is already dying. You dream of your own economically strong country, don't you? Well, I wish you some day this happens. Emmigrants from Africa massively migrating there. Until they become a significant minority and claim your territory as a part of their Zulu country just because there are Zulu people there that cannot live the way the locals live. Bullshits...

^^
The country is already ours, I don't have to like or dislike anything silly. :cheers:

lol

get some therapy already

^^ Who are you and what are you trying to claim, you sick man?!? It's the 21st century you know and the ethnic-nationalistic idea is already dying. You dream of your own economically strong country, don't you? Well, I wish you some day this happens. Emmigrants from Africa massively migrating there. Until they become a significant minority and claim your territory as a part of their Zulu country just because there are Zulu people living there that cannot live the way the locals live. Bullshits...

your effort is futile... just leave it :cheers:

^^ Who the hell are you to intervene in my country's internal affairs? I was born in that country and have every right to my opinion in regards to its future and current events. :cheers:

OK, then who are you and whose country is yours? I think you refer to Macedonia as being an Albanian state? Well...then which is your country, Albania or Macedonia? Do you really think that Macedonia will ever become Albania? Heh...

You know the answers to all those questions but yet again its none of your business in what goes on in Fyrom.

^^

now you really hurt my feelings :lol:


what a pathetic little kid

^^

eternal puberty

Well, I'm from the Bulgarian ubersecret services, I'm really interested in Macedonia, I'm really interested in occupying and joining Macedonia as it's a part of my holy Bulgarian empire :) Macedonia is Bulgaria and you shouldn't mess up with that cause when we come there, we'll kick your asses and teach you some lessons in Bulgarian barbarianship and brutality. And such kinda blablabla.

I have the right to speak about my future Greater Bulgaria...just like you have the right to speak about your Greater Albania. Now get out of our claimed and already pissed territory! You understand? Heh...

No offence, that's really idiotic, but it seems that's a good answer to your post :)

Isn't the majority of Ukrainians against joining NATO?

Well, maybe, but not in a great majority. And, if I remember well, when other central european countries were welcomed, there were some countries where their majorities were also not in favour of joining.

All in all, I think the key issue here is strategic thinking:
1. the country's aspirations to the west through its government;
2. the country's strategic position and importance;
3. the possibilities to reform the country and put it on the western track for good.

Sadly, it's a huge majority that don't support NATO ( around 75-85 percent). This is mostly due to the fact that they know nothing about NATO, and think that we will go to war with Russia. The President has stated that Ukraine will join NATO when it's grown up to the appropriate level, which probably won't happen in the next few years.

I'll reply to you guys later. Gotta go get ready to go clubbing. Its thanksgiving Eve here and I'm gonna bang out some Italian chicks tonight! Have fun fellas! :cheers:

BTW unlike EU, I think in NATO you need a majority vote to be accepted, so Greece cannot have veto.

Actually all it takes is one vote from a NATO country to stop the entry of a new member, same as the EU. However, Greece most likely will not do that to FYROM. That's not saying that Greece wont (or shouldn't) pressure FYROM very hard for a solution before their entry. IMO, FYROM will win the name dispute. Not because they are historically accurate, but because the modern (western) world can care less about it. So you already have USA, Canada, and soon you will probably have most European nations soon to follow suit in recognizing FYROM as simply Macedonia. In the end, some sort of a "compromise" will result, but I'm sure it will favor FYR Macedonia.



Besides, the Greeks are not stupid people .

No, but the Greek government is VERY stupid.:bash:

I'll reply to you guys later. Gotta go get ready to go clubbing. Its thanksgiving Eve here and I'm gonna bang out some Italian chicks tonight! Have fun fellas! :cheers:
No one actually cares about your replies, we just like encouraging them because they show the rest of the forum (and to a lesser extent, world) what type of people we have to live with in Macedonia, so please continue the way you are because it's great for our ratings. And i'll reply to you later with some awesome pictures of how people like you hate our country, i have to go to work and actually do something meaningful with my life (you understand that, meaningful?), unlike the degenerate dolt that you are who only sees the collective purpose of his people to ruin another people.

Good luck 'banging' some Italian chicks, i think the only way you'll get close to one is through one of your mafia lead drug groups, i bet they feel revolted when they look at you.

Actually all it takes is one vote from a NATO country to stop the entry of a new member, same as the EU. However, Greece most likely will not do that to FYROM. That's not saying that Greece wont (or shouldn't) pressure FYROM very hard for a solution before their entry. IMO, FYROM will win the name dispute. Not because they are historically accurate
No, mainly because we have strong lobby groups around the world, where most of the members have roots from northern Greece where their parents or grandparents were kicked out from their towns and villages to make way for the new wave of imported Greeks from Asia. Ancient history is just that, that's why no one cares, most people care about human rights these days and that's what the whole problem is. The end.

No one actually cares about your replies, we just like encouraging them because they show the rest of the forum (and to a lesser extent, world) what type of people we have to live with in Macedonia, so please continue the way you are because it's great for our ratings. And i'll reply to you later with some awesome pictures of how people like you hate our country, i have to go to work and actually do something meaningful with my life (you understand that, meaningful?), unlike the degenerate dolt that you are who only sees the collective purpose of his people to ruin another people.

Good luck 'banging' some Italian chicks, i think the only way you'll get close to one is through one of your mafia lead drug groups, i bet they feel revolted when they look at you.

http://www.forumspile.com/Misc-OhSnap.jpg

Personally I would rather leave NATO but heck, join our club of losers.

At least Costa Rica knows what it's doing

Albania?? WTF?:ohno:

actually you will be suprised at the military of Albania.. i did some research a few months ago and they got a better/bigger/and more up-to-date military then macedonia and even maybe Bulgaria..

No, mainly because we have strong lobby groups around the world,

In the US, I think Greeks have a stronger lobby....


where most of the members have roots from northern Greece where their parents or grandparents were kicked out from their towns and villages to make way for the new wave of imported Greeks from Asia.

^^

Do you want a handkerchief? :cry: What you don't think thousands of people from different ethnic groups were displaced in the Balkans from 1912-1945? Turks were kicked out of Greece, Greeks kicked out of Bulgaria, Albanians kicked out of Greece, Greeks kicked out of FYROM (oh wait let me guess no Greeks lived in Monastiri aka Bitola, or Gevgeli :lol:), Greek communists exiled to Eastern Bloc nations by their own government.....IT WAS CALLED WAR!

As for the Asia Minor and Pontian Greeks who settled in Macedonia....600.000 out of 1.5 million who came, in a large area of the country is a logical thing, especially since the MAJORITY of Turks leaving where from... Macedonia. Logically the homes of those 350,000 Turks who left where filled by Greeks who came over, and then some. Not "ethnic Macedonians were not replaced" It was the ethnic Turks that the Asia Minor Greeks were replacing in Macedonia.....


Still some 900,000 other Greek refugees were placed in other parts of the country, mainly Athens and some other big cities around the country. People went wherever they could.

And btw, just how many Makedonskians do you think were expelled from Greece? 50,000? 100,000? More? And when?


Ancient history is just that, that's why no one cares, most people care about human rights these days and that's what the whole problem is. The end.

Ancient history is something that we Greek cherish. You would too if you had ancient history:yes:


All nations have skeletons in their closets on human rights abuses dejan. Why don't you look in yours before you go pointing fingers.....

Macedonia, Croatia, and Albania will be welcomed in NATO at 2008 Bucharest NATO Summit. Ukraine and Georgia will not be welcomed, but will be supported to further their eforts in joining NATO.

So, :cheers: for the new members :)

More at:

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=12091407&PageNum=0

Great stuff :banana::banana::cheers:

I think the process of becoming a nato member is more important than the membership. Thats because there is alot of deadlines and standards to be fullfilled which in a way really upgrades and organizes our militaries in a much more effective way than lets say without the goal of becoming a NATO member. However, i think nato has lost its main purpose. Member states refuse to contribute to different missions in numbers that are needed for different reasons. Other states feel like they are being treated unfairly.

One example is Canada in afghanistan> Canada is placed in a hotspot in afghanistan while Germany is in a peacful area in the north with a non-combate mandate.

Directly no, actually you spend on it, you don't get any money from being a NATO member. And you spend a lot.

Indirectly, it's very hard to say. Lots of investments, especially in real estate are due to the fact that they consider you "a stable" country. But the energy sector suffers because the Russians are not quite happy. And their energy exports are very well connected with politics. Don't you know we are building the most expensive nuclear plant with a new Russian technology now? More than 4 billion euro for 2000MW, heh...I bet this is due to some diplomatic moves the mere mortals are not elligible to know well..

Why f***g Russian plant, ppl Canadians are quite good with these stuff, :)
4 billion is a lot of money, I am sure EU will help.

I think the process of becoming a nato member is more important than the membership. Thats because there is alot of deadlines and standards to be fullfilled which in a way really upgrades and organizes our militaries in a much more effective way than lets say without the goal of becoming a NATO member. However, i think nato has lost its main purpose. Member states refuse to contribute to different missions in numbers that are needed for different reasons. Other states feel like they are being treated unfairly.

One example is Canada in afghanistan> Canada is placed in a hotspot in afghanistan while Germany is in a peacful area in the north with a non-combate mandate.

thats true, the ministry of defense is the least corrupt in the country and the most up to date.

actually you will be suprised at the military of Albania.. i did some research a few months ago and they got a better/bigger/and more up-to-date military then macedonia and even maybe Bulgaria..

ehh i dunno, but i love pics :D
this was a recent excerise held in albania. albanain maceodnian and croatian troops "fought" side by side :cheers:

http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207149_1.jpg
http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207586_1.jpg
http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207618_1.jpg
http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207620_1.jpg
http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207723_1.jpg
http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207726_1.jpg
http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207189_1.jpg
http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207190_1.jpg
http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207192_1.jpg
http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207482_1.jpg
http://medialb.com/forumi/foto/207483_1.jpg

Again and again with this issue :bash:
OK, but let's say Greece are just trying their best and I think everyone would do the same in their position, they just want to do what's needed for them

I don't think Greece will stop MK. MK is their neighbour after all.

Well I think you are not well informed. Every week 1)the PM 2) the Minister of Foreign Affairs 3)Mitsotakis :lol: say that if Skopje does not accept a compromise then it will stay out of NATO and EU. I'm not saying that this will definitely happen but it's highly possible when 90% of the people support it (btw Skopje politics help us). So my personal opinion is obvious, we cannot be under the same roof with the actual circumstances.

And besides, Greece is a bad NATO member
Yes, but Greece is a very good importer of American garbage arms. Anyway, NATO is useless for Greece.
I mean, they don't always play fair with the Great Democratic Uberstates :)
This is true. We have licked asses before '74 and now is your turn. Honestly I prefer it from slaughtering nations for the pax-americana concept.

@dejan.... wtf man, wtf? :ohno:

No, mainly because we have strong lobby groups around the world, where most of the members have roots from northern Greece where their parents or grandparents were kicked out from their towns and villages to make way for the new wave of imported Greeks from Asia. Ancient history is just that, that's why no one cares, most people care about human rights these days and that's what the whole problem is. The end.

:ohno:.....

actually you will be suprised at the military of Albania.. i did some research a few months ago and they got a better/bigger/and more up-to-date military then macedonia and even maybe Bulgaria..

And I need to do a seminar on protection of minorities in Albania until Monday. Any useful links? :D

Looking at these coutries' armed forces, I think only Croatia should join in 2008, but I know it's more of a political decision.

Nice Croatian AF presentation video
aicEMAzQ-ZY

^^Nice vid! I agree, for such a small nation and a country that only recently fought a war, Croatia has surprisingly strong armed forces. Or maybe it's not surprising after all, considering the history.

What bothers me is that nor Albania, nor Macedonia have a real air force, complete with fighters. I know there are plans for such an AF in both countries, but till then that's two more countries for air policing.:) Macedonia doesn't even have those Su-25s anymore and Albania has a few MiG-21s in storage. I'm glad they've at least scraped those MiG-19s.

^ Iceland doesn't even have army.

Iceland is a bit different as a role in NATO, just as Luxembourg.:)

What bothers me is that nor Albania, nor Macedonia have a real air force, complete with fighters. I know there are plans for such an AF in both countries, but till then that's two more countries for air policing.:) Macedonia doesn't even have those Su-25s anymore and Albania has a few MiG-21s in storage. I'm glad they've at least scraped those MiG-19s.

Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia doesn't have fighters either, and they could afford them sooner, than Macedonia or Albania. I think it's a smart move, as it's a huge financial effort to train fighter pilots, and then maintain the jet fighters in perfect condition. Not even talking about the actual purchase of planes. Small developing countries, if secure enough, should put emphasis on economic issues first, and only then perhaps buy a few modern planes.

@Cosmin I'm not a military or NATO expert as I'm not intersted in the issues, but from what I know Macedonia is the furthest in terms of military reformrs from the 3 candidates. Army reforms is not about fancy gadgets or nice PR clips.
Lack of airforce is a decision made in coordination with NATO, Bulgaria will guard our airspace AFAIK. Our airforce for the time being is only to be consisted of helicopters. Frankly for the country our size we don't need more.
Last... Croatia has the most complete candidature fulfilling not just the military reform preconditions but others too (ex. political instability which is the main problem for Macedonia at the moment). That's why Croatia is pretty much in while for Albania and Macedonia we will have to hold our breaths and see.

Army reforms is not about fancy gadgets or nice PR clips
Do I sound that stupid to you?:lol: I know, man, I know. I'm not judging you, I'm just looking at how strong your army is and having a large air force would be just dumb, I was only talking about it for air space security. One squadron of fighters would be enough for Albania and Macedonia. As I said, this only means more air policing for other members.

paku, I know about the Baltic states. RoAF Lancers have just returned from Lithuania.

Do I sound that stupid to you?:lol: I know, man, I know. I'm not judging you, I'm just looking at how strong your army is and having a large air force would be just dumb, I was only talking about it for air space security. One squadron of fighters would be enough for Albania and Macedonia. As I said, this only means more air policing for other members.


I don't think U R stupid, actually I have great respect for you as a forumer as your are always leveled and constructive. But I just though I should clarify things there. Militarily we are definately ready... Well I prersonally think we are ready by all means, but there is still this little political instability casting a shadow on the whole candidature.

http://www.forumspile.com/Misc-OhSnap.jpg
Ouch!! far out that made me cringe:uh:

Personally I would rather leave NATO but heck, join our club of losers.

At least Costa Rica knows what it's doing
I agree with that, but being in an unstable region, i guess it would be better.



Do you want a handkerchief? :cry:
Yeah i do actually, do you have one made of sand paper? They work best for my tears. I like rubbing in the corners.

@dejan.... wtf man, wtf? :ohno:
What??

What??

do we always have to talk about the damn refugees? That's a seperate issue from 50 years ago. We are talking about the NATO integration of Macedonia and the potential veto by Greece. Why mixing all that crap into one bowl? What will we achieve?

do we always have to talk about the damn refugees? That's a seperate issue from 50 years ago. We are talking about the NATO integration of Macedonia and the potential veto by Greece. Why mixing all that crap into one bowl? What will we achieve?
It's not like someone like chicagogeorge cares about those people, you saw his response, and it won't achieve anything, but then again his claims don't either, and that's the core of the issue with the whole veto and name crap. There's a reason why Greek groups here went spastic when they heard that a book had been published about the Macedonian people in Australia who come from northern Greece.

It's not like someone like chicagogeorge cares about those people, you saw his response, and it won't achieve anything, but then again his claims don't either, and that's the core of the issue with the whole veto and name crap. There's a reason why Greek groups here went spastic when they heard that a book had been published about the Macedonian people in Australia who come from northern Greece.

first of all chicagogeorge had legitimate points in his post... There were wars and shit happens. It happened to them as well in Asia Minor, it happened to us and it happened to most nations in Europe in some areas at certain points of time. I don't like what happened to the Ageans as well but that's a thing of the past, the Greek Civil war is as ancient history as all the Alexander the great junk.

The issue we do have today as a consequence of that war and that is the selective law Greece has for rehabilitation of the ideological refugees from the Greek civil war (many of them Macedonians) which is only aimed at the refugees having ethnic Greek originis. This prevents the Agean Macedonians U mention in Ur post to claim back their citizenships, property or in many cases to visit their birthplaces and the graves of their mothers, fathers, blah, blah....

Having said all this, this has nothing to do with the current situation with our NATO membership and the potential Greek blockade. And that was the topic here in the first place.

first of all chicagogeorge had legitimate points in his post... There were wars and shit happens. It happened to them as well in Asia Minor, it happened to us and it happened to most nations in Europe in some areas at certain points of time. I don't like what happened to the Ageans as well but that's a thing of the past, the Greek Civil war is as ancient history as all the Alexander the great junk.
At least it's 'known' in most European/world circles what happened to them in Asia Minor, who knows about the Macedonian people and their struggle(s) in Greece? Next to no one. Most external observers think it's about Alexander and the ancient history of the region, but when you tell them it's totally different, you'd be surprised how their point of view shifts.


The issue we do have today as a consequence of that war and that is the selective law Greece has for rehabilitation of the ideological refugees from the Greek civil war (many of them Macedonians) which is only aimed at the refugees having ethnic Greek originis. This prevents the Agean Macedonians U mention in Ur post to claim back their citizenships, property or in many cases to visit their birthplaces and the graves of their mothers, fathers, blah, blah....

Having said all this, this has nothing to do with the current situation with our NATO membership and the potential Greek blockade. And that was the topic here in the first place.
Yeah i know all of that, i just thought i'd use the opportunity to show what the extreme majority of people on the forum (and other guest readers), don't know, and it's that, not some ancient history of the region.

At least it's 'known' in most European/world circles what happened to them in Asia Minor, who knows about the Macedonian people and their struggle(s) in Greece? Next to no one. Most external observers think it's about Alexander and the ancient history of the region, but when you tell them it's totally different, you'd be surprised how their point of view shifts.

Yeah i know all of that, i just thought i'd use the opportunity to show what the extreme majority of people on the forum (and other guest readers), don't know, and it's that, not some ancient history of the region.

listen... I understand your grief and I know where it comes for... but there is a right time and a right place... we can't turn every single discussion with the Greeks to a name/refugees discussion. Right now me and you talking about this are just hijacking the thread. I'll stop here but there is no guarantee that some other Greek or Macedonian won't get pumped up by adrenaline reading all this junk and restart the cycle... That's why I reacted to your post ;) I think it didn't belong in this discussion.

listen... I understand your grief and I know where it comes for... but there is a right time and a right place... we can't turn every single discussion with the Greeks to a name/refugees discussion. Right now me and you talking about this are just hijacking the thread. I'll stop here but there is no guarantee that some other Greek or Macedonian won't get pumped up by adrenaline reading all this junk and restart the cycle... That's why I reacted to your post ;) I think it didn't belong in this discussion.
I know it didn't belong in the discussion and i wondered firstly whether i should have posted it, but being the short tempered person that i can be i replied. I know that taking this view on isn't good, but when you have some degenerate Greek members taking any opportunity to say something foul to us...although you're right about it, wasn't the place and time.

I know it didn't belong in the discussion and i wondered firstly whether i should have posted it, but being the short tempered person that i can be i replied. I know that taking this view on isn't good, but when you have some degenerate Greek members taking any opportunity to say something foul to us...although you're right about it, wasn't the place and time.

again uncalled for... even if it's really like that...

Back to the subject of Albania, Croatia and Macedonia joining NATO in 2008. :D

What are the defense budgets of Macedonia and Albania, I really want most accurate figure.

Croatian Defense Budget for 2007 was 4340 million kuna, at than exchange rate this was 804 million U$, Budget for 2008 was increased slightly to 5240 million kuna or 1040 million U$ at present exchange rate.

Also from January 1st, Croatia is going to institute professional army with serviceman serving 3 or 5 year contractual terms. This is all in line with the NATO policy and modernization.

Croatia plans to acquire 12+2 modern jet fighters most likely JAS 39 C/D Gripen. Additional 12+2 Gripens might be purchased after 2012. Deal for first 14 fighters is worth 800 million euros and will be largest military purchase Croatia made.

Croatian Navy will also get 2 large offshore patrol vessels (85m long, 1200-1500 tons) 30-32 knots speed, crew of 100-120. These will replace old Mirna class 32m patrol boats.
OPV's are to be built by a domestic shipbuilder at the cost of 80-100 million euros per ship. After 2012, Croatian Navy plans to introduce 4 large corvettes, 100-120m long, Gowind 2000 was one option but it seems Croatian navy will still try to utilize current fleet of large gunboats, King class Gun Boats entered service in 1992/1994 and 2000. 3 Gunboats are 54m long and displace about 400 tons, but are ill equipped to deal with the smugglers and traffickers, they lack helicopter pad and for that reason Croatia was forced to consider Offshore patrol vessels which can house helicopter pad.

Army just now purchased first batch of AMV Patria APC/IFV's and Macedonia also agreed to consider Patria for its IFV/APC program. Croatia purchased 84 AMV' Patria's but this is first batch, 42 more will be ordered in 2008 and new order might be made as early as 2009 for additional 126 Patrias from Finish manufacturer.

Croatia also purchased 80 Iveco LMV's at the cost of 32 million euros, additional 80 LMV's might be purchased in 2010 and total might increase to 240-250 vehicles.

Only few weeks ago, Croatian AF agreed with Canadian aircraft manufacturer Bombardier for 2 CL 416 at cost of 62.5 million USD, aircraft are to be delivered in 2009 and 2010.
But additional order for 2 more Cl415's might be made in 2010. Croatia has a need for 8 Cl415 and 8 AT 802 fire bombers to deal with summer forest fires.

On Helicopter front, Croatia just took delivery of first of 12 Mil 17Sh form Russia, helicopters will supplement current fleet of 15 Mill 8, 6 Bell 212 and 14 Bell 206.

And from Czech aircraft manufacture, first 5 Zlin242L basic trainers were delivered with 3 more to Join service in 2008.

These are few ongoing defense programs right now :)

You can't be emancipated and prosperous while having Saudi reproduction rates. Albanians in Macedonia are surely shifting towards the first choice very fast. I know loonies like you don't like it, but that doesn't mean shit in real life.

No one actually cares about your replies, we just like encouraging them because they show the rest of the forum (and to a lesser extent, world) what type of people we have to live with in Macedonia, so please continue the way you are because it's great for our ratings. And i'll reply to you later with some awesome pictures of how people like you hate our country, i have to go to work and actually do something meaningful with my life (you understand that, meaningful?), unlike the degenerate dolt that you are who only sees the collective purpose of his people to ruin another people.

Good luck 'banging' some Italian chicks, i think the only way you'll get close to one is through one of your mafia lead drug groups, i bet they feel revolted when they look at you.

WTF ... SICKOS :weird:

^^

yeah that's the sick stuff :nuts:

Iliri is pretty good at instigating shit too though....best strategy to avoid the ruining of threads is to ignore instigators....if you dont then...your just as bad.

^^ Yes he is in the capacity of a forum troll, but these guys sound dead serious.

Well sometimes ppl just loose it; best remedies, take a brake from a thread, forums, and do not talk to ppl who anger you, put them on ignore, this way you suffer less and do not need to get angry about someone posting crap.

other than that, ppl be happy :D

Back to the subject of Albania, Croatia and Macedonia joining NATO in 2008. :D

What are the defense budgets of Macedonia and Albania, I really want most accurate figure.

Croatian Defense Budget for 2007 was 4340 million kuna, at than exchange rate this was 804 million U$, Budget for 2008 was increased slightly to 5240 million kuna or 1040 million U$ at present exchange rate.



for albania the defense budget would probably be around 2% of gdp making it around 263 million dollars.

All i can say to ilir from "diber" is.. if Macedonia joins NATO u can kiss ur greater albania dream goodbye.
Also dewrob, dont "wtf" dejan, what he said to chicagogeorge was spot on because it altered dramatically the ethnic composition of greek-macedonia.
chicagogeorge can you please tell me (or any greek for that matter) what is a solution for the name dispute which you think athens would accept and skopje might accept?

I hope im ON-TOPIC because all this affects R.Macedonia's NATO ambitions.

All i can say to ilir from "diber" is.. if Macedonia joins NATO u can kiss ur greater albania dream goodbye.
Also dewrob, dont "wtf" dejan, what he said to chicagogeorge was spot on because it altered dramatically the ethnic composition of greek-macedonia.
chicagogeorge can you please tell me (or any greek for that matter) what is a solution for the name dispute which you think athens would accept and skopje might accept?

I hope im ON-TOPIC because all this affects R.Macedonia's NATO ambitions.

sorry GM I don't function on the ethnic key if I see something I disagree with I react regardless if it comes from a Macedonian. Dejan can be spot on in another discussion where the topic is the ethnic composition of Greek Macedonia during the last century. This way it turns out that we can't even discuss the weather in Greek Macedonia without relating it to population exchanges, refugees, civil war, blah blah.... And that sucks, I'm tired of that crap... Do we really have something new to tell each other with the Greeks since the last time we had the discussion? No. Here, now U asked chicagogeorge questions that U already know the answers too... Were will the lead!? Let me guess locking the thread in no time.

chicagogeorge can you please tell me (or any greek for that matter) what is a solution for the name dispute which you think athens would accept and skopje might accept?


I don't know. Do me a favor, please translate the word Macedonian:)

"Not enough love and understanding ..."

Cher :D

I don't know. Do me a favor, please translate the word Macedonian:)

what an argument :| I'm outta here U guys can kick each other asses all U want

I had a goodnight, I wont say anything back to the posts directed to me. :lol:

:)

because it altered dramatically the ethnic composition of greek-macedonia.


You make it sound that the only Greeks living in Macedonia before 1923 were a few Greeks operating some Souvlaki stands in Thessaloniki :lol:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/121/tbtnymjummqu4.jpg


Did I mention that I support FYR Macedonia in NATO and the EU? As long as the name issue is permanently resolved :) And NO I really don't know what would be an appropriate name for your country.


BTW,

Hey Great Makedon, have you figured out what the word Makedon means yet? Can you please explain it in your language :yes:

chicagogeorge, i dont want to get into census statistics because we all know how bias they were in the early 20th century, each nation had dramatically different views on the ethnic composition of Macedonia as a whole. Just have a look at this for proof http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/OttomanMacedonia/statistics.html <-and this is not "skopian propaganda" but the views of none-macedonians.

Chicagogeorge, i see where your trying to go with the 'language' issue again, and if you want to continue it in private will be better since we are off topic.

P.S: ilir, ever asked yourself why 60% of the people in Debar speak Macedonian?

Did I mention that I support FYR Macedonia in NATO and the EU? As long as the name issue is permanently resolved :)

Thanks for the generous offer and don't worry, our real name stays permanent ;)

What people really don't understand is that the Macedonian Premier meant what he said that we will not change the name Republic of Macedonia even if it means us never joining NATO and EU.

I would like to join the other greek posters in here, in order to give you the mood in Greece about FYROM's NATO membership.

The general perception cultivated by ND goverment, the prime minister, the foreign minister and all serious decision makers is that unless FYROM works a mutually agreed solution about the name issue, Greece will definately veto FYROMs membership. Moreover, there has been a serious and systematic lobbying from the foreign ministry to USA, EU and other countries that this time the greek govrmenet really mean what they 're saying. This has transpired into the greek press making greek public opinion to see this opportunity as a unique chance to get over and done with the name issue. What is different now than the past, or at least what greek media report, is that most goverments that greek foreign minister comes in contact with, express their "understanding" about Greece's "legitime concerns" over the name issue.
Further on, what the greek goverment seems to sponsor (again according to greek media and analysts) is the solution of the "composite name" which could be something like "Upper Macedonia" or "Nova Makedonija" or "Northern Macedonia" etc. Greece wants this name to be used not only in billateral relationships but also interanationally, in order to have a disambiguation with the Macedonia province, its culture & history.

What is more important is the fact that Karamanlis is now on a serious gamble from which he cannot back-off. If his goverment does not go on with the veto of FYROMs membership, he could even face deflections from some of his party's representatives, which could lead to new general elections in Greece, as ND now has a very slim parliamentarian majority (152 mp's out of 300).

Lately, another scenario that goes around, is that NATO will spare Greece from the trouble, as they will only accept Croatia as a full member and express their sympathy and support for the other candidate countries who will be admitted at a time further into the future.
This way they could even consolidate for the moment Russian concerns about NATO's further expansion in an area where they (the Russians) always were interested in geopolitically.

^^

If the bigger players want Macedonia in, there's no real choice for Greece. Of course it can use veto, but it will be shooting itself in the foot. Guess how long it will take for the UN to drop the stupid reference. And we here in Macedonia definitely don't want NATO membership in exchange for loosing our name.

I personally am not impressed by Greek blackmails. You create an absurd problem and then talk about "compromise" and expect us to do the impossible?

I would like to join the other greek posters in here, in order to give you the mood in Greece about FYROM's NATO membership.


^^ I think the problem is that the public opinion in Greece doesn't even accept the so called "compromise name" - "Upper Macedonia", "North Macedonia" etc. For the avarage greek even this is unacceptable compromise, am I right ? Greece on the other hand thinks that it can push Macedonia against the wall because of the NATO membership - Bucurest meeting the following spring. The plans might be false though if Greece remains the only country that is against the enlargement, Bush might stick then Greece against the wall and force it to retreat, which will be very humiliating.

But all these are plans without real focus on the picture. We'll have to wait and see what will happen with Kosovo in the following months. Everything would be determined there IMO.

Errr...actually I don't think the big players care much about whether Macedonia is in or out. It's all a matter of lobbies IMO..

There's Moldova region in Romania and Republic of Moldova. Why there's so much talking about FYROM & Republic of Macedonia? Just leave it as Republic of Macedonia. Not to mention that FYROM is a shitty name for a country.

@Demetrius

from what I'm following U are covering the whole situation more or less as it is from a real politik viewpoint. Still we will have to see till last minute if Karamanlis is bluffing or not. There are probably many more processes and bargainings ongoing in the background that us mortals nor the journalist who try to interpret things are not aware off. Veto is a strong weapon to make political preassure but the actual enforcment of a veto is not as easy as it sounds.

Errr...actually I don't think the big players care much about whether Macedonia is in or out. It's all a matter of lobbies IMO..


Still, the big players look at the bigger picture and it might suit their geostrategic interests... I don't know exactly how, but this seems to be the case. Actually I do get the impression that despite our latest political blunders, the powerful NATO members are practically pushing us in.

One political analyst here described it best:
ако треба и на клоци ќе не внесат во НАТО


The interesting paradox is - it is not in Greece's interest for Macedonia to stay out of NATO, but they think that this is their last opportunity to fuck up with our name.

The interesting paradox is - it is not in Greece's interest for Macedonia to stay out of NATO, but they think that this is their last opportunity to fuck up with our name.

without exegaration I think it's one of the Greek priority regional geopolitical interests to keep Macedonia secure and unitary.

There's Moldova region in Romania and Republic of Moldova.


Of course, there are many examples like this around the world. But Greek politicians made an emotional issue out of this in 1991 and now most Greeks look at it as the "national pride" being at stake.

without exegaration I think it's one of the Greek priority regional geopolitical interests to keep Macedonia secure and unitary.


I'm sure most Greek politicians understand how important that is for Greece and all the ramifications if it isn't so. But unfortunately daily politics is a powerful influence in their decisions of course :|

Guys, only if you were greeks you could understand how serious the "Macedonian" issue is for the average Greek! In fact over the years it was the politicians who had to succumb to public pressure about the name issue and not vice-versa!
This is exactly now the case for Karamanlis: He has to go on with political reform in the financial & social security issues of the public sector, a thing that makes his newlly re-elected goverment unpopular. And this goverment has a slim parliamentary majority (152 seats out of 300). So, trying to solve this national issue, i.e. name of Macedonia, is a means to increase his administrations popularity and unite his parliamentary representatives in a solid coherent team!Moreover he is a politician with family roots in Serres (city in Macedonia) and he "has to" be sensitive about the name issue. In fact I believe he has taken this thing rather personally!

Finally what you guys must realise, is that beyond any nationalists who exist in Greece like any other country, and may have their own agenda, the majority of the greek people, especially the macedonians, are very sensitive in the FYROM issue, because they also see this situation from a cultural (and not nationalistic) point of view: They feel like "Someone is trying to steal our identiy/heritage/history/culture".
Politicians and businessmen in Greece, really do not care that much about the name, hence the financial take over of FYROM by Greek businesses. It is the public opinion that pushes the matters here in this case and I'm afraid even this "composite name" comprimise will be hard to sell to the greek public. At least to a great part of it.

But NATO? No, NATO officials and their bosses are smarter than that. They know that accepting both Albania and FYROM into NATO, indiffferently of these countries' ability to be NATO members, would mean more trouble for the time been. Trouble from these two countries billateral relationships, trouble with regional perplections (Serbia, BIH, Kossovo), trouble from other big players outside NATO that have sensitivities with the region (Russia). Greek concerns over the name may be critical for Greece, but are secondary to US or EU. So,I believe the best way to postpone these troubles is to admit into NATO for the time being only Croatia and hope with time that things will be more favorable for ,say, Albania or FYROM membership.
I bleieve this is where Karamanlis counts on, however if things go the other way, he will veto.Otherwise he may risk his office,the way this issue is recently escalated in Greece.

But NATO? No, NATO officials and their bosses are smarter than that. They know that accepting both ALbania and FYROM into NATO, indiffferently of these countries' ability to be NATO members, would mean more trouble for the time been. Trouble from these two countries billateral relationships, trouble with regional perplections (Serbia, BIH, Kossovo), trouble from other big players outside NATO that have sensitivities with the region (Russia). Greek concerns over the name may be critical for Greece, but are secondary to US or EU. So,I believe the best way to postpone these troubles is to admit inot NATO for the time being only Croatia and hope in time things will be more favorable for ,say, Albania or FYROM.


nice try. The big ones generally don't see that we will bring problems inside. On the countrary they see problems by us remaining outside.

nice try. The big ones generally don't see that we will bring problems inside. On the countrary they see problems by us remaining outside.

It's all a matter of perspective! FYROM's membership for the big players is directly linked with Albania & the Kosovo situation therefore things may not be that simple!
We must not judge only by our own national perception!

There's Moldova region in Romania and Republic of Moldova. Why there's so much talking about FYROM & Republic of Macedonia? Just leave it as Republic of Macedonia. Not to mention that FYROM is a shitty name for a country.
Because the name issue is only the top of the Iceberg. Anyway Demetrius explained with realism the present situation, I will just add that you can search Wiki for further information about the issue and finally that the name ''Republic of Macedonia'' is unacceptable for Greece.

@Turnovec
Yes, most of the Greeks are against the compromise.
@Dewrob
Karamanlis has no way out. Losing this issue his government will collapse for one day. After all it's the best time for Greece to pressure since our eastern neighbors have serious internal problems, the Kosovo issue is a potential bomb for your country-and so a good instrument for us to push, and finally the Republican administration is way troubled both inside and outside the country. After all the Americans favored Skopje in 2004 and doing this again will create another anti-american hysteria in Greece and believe me they have their own interests here (many billions of dollars arm deals that as it seems the Americans will lose- ie the Eurofighters). Finally it seems that Skopje will not take the invitation for NATO and nothing of the afore-mentioned will happen (and will bashing each other in thousands of threads worldwide since we will all lose)

Still, the big players look at the bigger picture and it might suit their geostrategic interests... I don't know exactly how, but this seems to be the case. Actually I do get the impression that despite our latest political blunders, the powerful NATO members are practically pushing us in.

One political analyst here described it best:



The interesting paradox is - it is not in Greece's interest for Macedonia to stay out of NATO, but they think that this is their last opportunity to fuck up with our name.

Please, don't write anymore in Kirilic or in your own language... I do not understand a thing :bash::lol:, and I would really like to read all the posts here because I am not that up-to-date with the politics of the Balkan states.

Thanks

Still, the big players look at the bigger picture and it might suit their geostrategic interests... I don't know exactly how, but this seems to be the case. Actually I do get the impression that despite our latest political blunders, the powerful NATO members are practically pushing us in.

One political analyst here described it best:



The interesting paradox is - it is not in Greece's interest for Macedonia to stay out of NATO, but they think that this is their last opportunity to fuck up with our name.

Please, don't write anymore in Kirilic or in your own language... I do not understand a thing :bash::lol:, and I would really like to read all the posts here because I am not that up-to-date with the politics of the Balkan states.

Thanks

Please, don't write anymore in Kirilic or in your own language... I do not understand a thing :bash::lol:, and I would really like to read all the posts here because I am not that up-to-date with the politics of the Balkan states.

Thanks

Sorry for the double post...anyway, I have an excuse- it's my first after 2 months of membership :banana: :cheers:

Because the name issue is only the top of the Iceberg.

Yes, it's probably most about the Macedonian refugees from Greece (especially from 1948) and their right for citizenship, return of property/compensation...


I will just add that you can search Wiki for further information about the issue and finally that the name ''Republic of Macedonia'' is unacceptable for Greece.


1. Greeks are 10 times more numerous on wikipedia and they have certainly painted a very bias picture there

2. Nobody reasonable cares if it is acceptable or not for Greece, since it is within the sovereign rights of a country to choose or in this case to keep its name, without the neighbors blackmailing it.


Finally it seems that Skopje will not take the invitation for NATO and nothing of the afore-mentioned will happen

O RLY?

Guys, only if you were greeks you could understand how serious the "Macedonian" issue is for the average Greek!

Then how come the Greeks invented the problem in 1991. My country was one of the federal units of Yugoslavia and was called Socialist Republic of Macedonia. Was it the word "Socialist" that had such a calming effect on the Greeks for the previous 50 years? :nuts:



Politicians and businessmen in Greece, really do not care that much about the name, hence the financial take over of FYROM by Greek businesses.

You're living in the 90's dude ;)

Please, don't write anymore in Kirilic or in your own language... I do not understand a thing :bash::lol:, and I would really like to read all the posts here because I am not that up-to-date with the politics of the Balkan states.

Thanks

There's no way to properly translate it, be it in cyrilic or latin transcription

You're living in the 90's dude ;)

Really? I 'd rather think your government is! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

chicagogeorge, i dont want to get into census statistics because we all know how bias they were in the early 20th century, each nation had dramatically different views on the ethnic composition of Macedonia as a whole. Just have a look at this for proof http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/OttomanMacedonia/statistics.html <-and this is not "skopian propaganda" but the views of none-macedonians.

^^

So everyone was trying to hide the Macedonian nationality (in the Greek and Bulgarian statistics), but for some reason, Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Jews, were all accounted for in Ottoman records. What about further back? Any mention of a separate "Macedonian" nationality in Byzantine times? No.




Chicagogeorge, i see where your trying to go with the 'language' issue again, and if you want to continue it in private will be better since we are off topic.


It's really a simple question. Can you explain to me what the term Macedonia (or Makedon) means? No need to PM anything. All it will take is a second.


There's Moldova region in Romania and Republic of Moldova.


The difference is that Moldavians and Romanians both speak Romanian and in essence are both Romanian (no matter what Stalin thought). FYR Macedonians speak a Slavic language closely related to Bulgarian (regardless of what Tito wanted), while Macedonians in Greece speak Greek. Not to mention that only about 15% of FYROM is actually part of historic Macedonia. The rest of that region was once known as Paeonia. For Greeks, Macedonia represents a part of Greek history in the same way Athens, Sparta, Crete.......

Yes, it's probably most about the Macedonian refugees from Greece (especially from 1948) and their right for citizenship, return of property/compensation...
Yeah, yeah and we want refugees from Monastiri back. Are you satisfied now?




1. Greeks are 10 times more numerous on wikipedia and they have certainly painted a very bias picture there

If wikipedia is a Greek tool then I am from Mars.Anyway he can read every university textbook for Ancient Macedonia and if he finds anything about Slavs back in 300 B.C. I will hang myself in Skopje central square.

2. Nobody reasonable cares if it is acceptable or not for Greece, since it is within the sovereign rights of a country to choose or in this case to keep its name, without the neighbors blackmailing it.
And it's our sovereign right to defend with all means our history, culture, national integrity and reality.

The difference is that Moldavians and Romanians both speak Romanian and in essence are both Romanian (no matter what Stalin thought). FYR Macedonians speak a Slavic language closely related to Bulgarian (regardless of what Tito wanted), while Macedonians in Greece speak Greek. Not to mention that only about 15% of FYROM is actually part of historic Macedonia. The rest of that region was once known as Paeonia.


Always dispersing the the issue... :ohno:


1. What difference does it make what kind of language do we speak? We call ourself Macedonians for a long time and it is the only name we identify by.

2. The Greeks that live in the wider region of Macedonia are still Greeks. They are Macedonian by their regional belonging, but not by their ethnicity.

3. Not that it matters whether it is 15% or 20%, but for the sake of the truth please don't use this stupid argument anymore. The geographic term Macedonia is very relative. The Romans and the Ottomans included huge territories in their province called Macedonia (including the whole territory of today's Republic of Macedonia)

Switzerland has 4 official languages, and the people are all called Swiss. :banana:

1. What difference does it make what kind of language do we speak? We call ourself Macedonians for a long time and it is the only name we identify by.
Since the 50s, a long time indeed.

2. The Greeks that live in the wider region of Macedonia are still Greeks. They are Macedonian by their regional belonging, but not by their ethnicity.

And you are Macedonians by ethnicity? That kind of arguments make me think that I would prefer a Greater Albania than the actual comic situation.

Always dispersing the the issue... :ohno:


1. What difference does it make what kind of language do we speak? We call ourself Macedonians for a long time and it is the only name we identify by.

Ok. Fine. How long? I call myslef an "Illinoian" because I live in the state of Illinois, but I'm not an native Illini Indian am I?



2. The Greeks that live in the wider region of Macedonia are still Greeks. They are Macedonian by their regional belonging, but not by their ethnicity.

So what make you an ethnic Macedonian and not my wife? Who's family is from Macedonia but speaks Greek? What defines your ethnicity Religion? Culture and customs?


Language? If so, then how come a Macedonian can have a conversation easily with a Bulgarian? Is it not true that the two languages stem from the same language?

Who are your national heroes? Tsar Samuel? Alexander the Great?


3. Not that it matters whether it is 15% or 20%, but for the sake of the truth please don't use this stupid argument anymore. The geographic term Macedonia is very relative. The Romans and the Ottomans included huge territories in their province called Macedonia (including the whole territory of today's Republic of Macedonia)

Ok then, so your country is barely part of ancient Macedonia.

Let me ask you this? Why don't the Turks refer to them as Trojans? Or Ionians? Or Hittites? Do they not live on a land that was historically called so?

Since the 50s, a long time indeed.


Well we couldn't establish our statehood before that because of such "nice" neighbors like you, who were and are still trying even to negate our existence.



And you are Macedonians by ethnicity? That kind of arguments make me think that I would prefer a Greater Albania than the actual comic situation.
[/quote]

Yes, we're Macedonians by ethnicity, like I said that is the only name we identify with. It doesn't matter if we're predominantly Slav or how much they have mixed with the ancient Macedonians when they came here 1500 years ago.

If you want greater Albania, you're certainly allowed to feel that way. Although it would be advisable to start preparing yourself psychologicaly for conceding Chameria and Epir ;)

@ chicagogorge


Ok, but why is Mars red and if is so, shouldn't Conan O'Brien be a F1 driver then?

:nuts:


On a serious note, try to be more consistent instead of always replying with increasingly false arguments and irrational logic. I understand that it is your aim to spam the discussion beyond recognition with the purpose of relativizing the facts, but keep in mind that probably most neutral people are also able to recognize your "tactics" ;)

Yes, we're Macedonians by ethnicity, like I said that is the only name we identify with. It doesn't matter if we're predominantly Slav or how much they have mixed with the ancient Macedonians when they came here 1500 years ago.

^^ Since one of my grandgrandgrandfathers was Spaniard I am planning to call Greece Spain and claim the throne as the real ancestor. Nice logic isn't it?
As for Albania, I don't care. After all it is going to happen sooner or later. Why I must be with a country which caused so many problems and disinformation for 17 years?
After all Albanians, till now, are not claiming lands officially nor threaten us or transform the ancient history. And basically even if they claim lands they must have the power to get them (ie 200 last-generations fighters) which is not likely to happen even in 2050.:lol:

^^ Since one of my grandgrandgrandfathers was Spaniard I am planning to call Greece Spain and claim the throne as the real ancestor. Nice logic isn't it?

Huh?

:lol:

Are you implying that this is somehow the Macedonian logic concerning the issue?

If anything, it somewhat resembles the Greek irrational attitude.

This is probably a stupid thing (considering the "warm" atmosphere here), but I will post it nevertheless: I've been following this eternal flame war (Greece vs. FYROM) for quite some time, and it's sad to see people so worked up about it. As a Serb from Bosnia, I have a tremendous respect (this is an understatement) for all the Greek help (food, medicines) during the past war, and in general I admire Greeks for protecting their heritage and standing up for what's right in today's world. I can't think of any other nation in the world that is so close to and so respected by the Serbs. On the other hand, one would hope the Greek posters here are willing to understand that perhaps Macedonians have no other choice since they have been known as such since 1945. Thus I find it quite understandable that they are attached to the name and do not want to "find" a brand new identity in the 21st century. I would compare this issue with today's Bosniaks whose name only goes back to 1992, but if people do not want to be called Muslim Serbs or Croats or Bosnian Muslims as they did in the past (not really an ethnic category), it is only right to let people name themselves any way they want (from the historic and cultural perspective, "Bosnian" language would be a different thing in my eyes, but that's another topic in its own right). Finally, the (sad) truth is, no amount of arguments here will decide the issue anyhow. The same goes with Kosovo problem, and I think you can notice the disappearance of arguments in those threads as well. It is all up to the "ruling casts" now.....:grouphug:

^^


It certainly goes much more back than 1945

Isn't Greece FYR Macedonia's largest investor and maybe the it's largest trading partner?

Isn't Greece FYR Macedonia's largest investor and maybe the it's largest trading partner?

Another great argument! :okay: :nuts:

And NO, it isn't anymore. Neither investor nor trading partner.

On a serious note, try to be more consistent instead of always replying with increasingly false arguments and irrational logic. I understand that it is your aim to spam the discussion beyond recognition with the purpose of relativizing the facts, but keep in mind that probably most neutral people are also able to recognize your "tactics" ;)

Anyone can sit there and say "false arguments" "irrational logic". Why don't you confront them? Tell me specifically what you don't agree with.


I'll ask you again,

Can you understand Bulgarian?

Who are your historical and national heroes?

And Great Makedon, I'm still waiting for that translations :)


Another great argument! :okay: :nuts:

And NO, it isn't anymore. Neither investor nor trading partner.


Who is arguing? I'm asking a question. You think I was insinuating that somehow Greeks were going to pull all of their investments out of your country if a solution is not reached :lol: :bash: We are talking about MONEY here! :yes:

Have you thought about the fact that if Greece wanted to have hostile relations there would not have been investment in FYR Macedonia?

The issue over the name is a matter of cultural rights. It's not like there are any territorial disputes between the two countries. At least not from Greece's side. :)

I think Greece is still in the top 5 in both trade and investment...Right?

Ah, here come the maps... It was long overdue :banana:


Not that your map is really worth a comment, but let me inform you that Borba is a Serbian newspaper. So direct your objections at the Serbs lol.

Map or no map, we will invade very soon and kick your ass all the way back to Athens. Too bad that nobody but Greeks can see this great danger for Greece :|

^^ You do realise that these claims exist only in the corrupted brains of some crazy uneducated pseudo-nationalists, don't you?

Personally, I used to get angry by that Pirin claims, now I feel pity for the guys that believe in that. Their world is one full of irrational hatred. Can't you just ignore it?

BTW...yeah, we can understand each other. Yeah, there are some disputes over some people and yeah, we have shared history.

They don't wanna be Bulgarians, they have another idea of ethnic identity, so why should I try to force them to accept some viewpoint of me? And what's the point of even arguing about that? If you were a Bulgarian (I mean relatively normal Bulgarian, not some warm-blooded teen or just a crazy idiot)...you wouldn't want to have anything with this. You wouldn't accept these guys as Bulgarians (who needs Bulgarians who don't wanna be Bulgarians after all)...but still you'd feel those people close to your people. That's all.

@ chicagogeorge

First of all, you should really drop your habit of almost always editing your posts after they were answered :bash:

It is really sneaky and undignified :sly:



Now to address your edit

Anyone can sit there and say "false arguments" "irrational logic". Why don't you confront them? Tell me specifically what you don't agree with.

You see, when you start spamming with BS with the purpose of making the discussion unrecognizable, I don't longer feel the need to reply. I think your arguments are absurd enough that they don't need to be confronted. I'm very confident that the wast majority of whoever is reading them can see right through them. So I simply refuse to play your game.

@ bgrs

Is your comment about my post? I really don't get it :dunno:



@ chicagogeorge

You edited your post yet again, even after my reply to your first edit... :ohno:

:puke:

Nope, it was about the map...but it's gone..

Nope, it was about the map...but it's gone..


Yep it's gone now... Yet another edit by chicagogeorge :nuts:



Honestly chicagogeorge, was this the 5th or the 6th edit of the same post? What kind of discussion is that?

^^ You do realise that these claims exist only in the corrupted brains of some crazy uneducated pseudo-nationalists, don't you?

-Government websites
-School books
-Airports
-Breaking the Interim agreement
-billions of webpages full of hate etc
If someone wants to live a peaceful future must clarify the past and present.
note:bolds represent official sources.Anyway, I'm off.

-Government websites
-School books
-Airports
-Breaking the Interim agreement
-billions of webpages full of hate etc


This is perhaps more easily applied to Greece.

But even if we disregard that fact, how does that give you the right to force an artificial name for me down my throat?

I haven't seen these maps in their Government sites, I don't know if there are such maps in their airport, I don't know about textbooks (it would be pity if someone funds...such idiocy, this is brainwashing kids to hate, ugh). And yeah, I've seen them on some sites, personally have seen forum posts and even have participated in flame wars with guys like that. I feel sorry for anyone who accepts them seriously though. I feel sorry about myself having taken them too seriously too. I usually try to make fun of those guys whenever I'm able to do so, that's all I can do about this.

Yep it's gone now... Yet another edit by chicagogeorge :nuts:



Honestly chicagogeorge, was this the 5th or the 6th edit of the same post? What kind of discussion is that?

I had decided not to post that map since we were discussing the name dispute and not territorial claims......but since you asked :D

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Images/Maps/Borders_Symbols_Stability/map4.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/37/Macedonia_barbed_wire.jpg/350px-Macedonia_barbed_wire.jpg

http://www.hri.org/Martis/images/doc5k-lg.jpg

^^

No discussion is complete without those maps

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:



But here are some maps for you to chew on... And unlike your maps, these are from official Greek pre-1991 schoolbooks. Furthermore they actually prove a valid point.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1521/11pr4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7620/31jz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/37/Macedonia_barbed_wire.jpg/350px-Macedonia_barbed_wire.jpg


Why is that map using barbed wire to define borders? :lol:

@Okrojsha your intentions seem good but the 1945 thing is just off track. Simple analogy. Did the Serbian nation start to exist in 1815?

@chicagogeorge there is nothing to reply as you are not hearing the replies which have been answered milion times around here. You are just peristantly asking the same questions (regardless of the context) which are becoming rethoric as you give the answers to them yourself. Similar with others. Olympos has raised an issue like the maps which have been elaborated for so many times last time not more that 3 weeks ago.

You (and some others) are obviously ignoring the answers because they don't go in line with your 'fake artificial nationalistic irredentist nation' thesis which you are falsely trying to present to the world in a bid to explain your irrational politics of denying a nation the usage of its sovereign name.

Either that or you have a short memory loss issues or you are plain stupid.

Now I'm pretty damn 100% sure you are not stupid.

:cheers:

OK here are some funny youtube videos :)

Macedonia vs (Bulgaria&Greece):

z9bxtOOzEYQ


Greece vs Macedonia:

gfPzOeQQ4Ng


Bulgaria vs Macedonia (actually vs almost everyone):

3UGEYhnNUj8


And...this is a good one :lol:....Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria vs Macedonia and Turkey :)

IT1wYxZJ8Q8


Took me only a couple of minutes to find them :)

Enjoy :)

OK, Enough of this nonsense pp, STOP IT NOW, no more Greek - Macedonian shit, you guys do not like each other, fine, does that mean we need to endure your crap as well, I am here trying to find bit more about NATO stuff, and it is sad that I need to use MSN to talk to ppl and find things that way.


THIS THREAD IS ABOUT NATO, ALBANIA, CROATIA and MACEDONIA joining NATO. CAN we talk about that PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

Can we talk about NATO and these 3 or 5 countries as someone mentioned joining NATO soon.

FFS...

thanx...

The videos were hilarious :lol:

The last one is good..:lol:

Glad to see that nobody here gives a rats ass about "NATO":yes: :okay:
We all have more pressing concerns to take care of:yes:

The last one is good..:lol:

Would be better if everyone was against Turkey :D

Would be better if everyone was against Turkey :D

Me personally I dont like Turkey, Albania and Serbia..:ohno:


About this thread-My loud applause only for Croatia. They're doing great job and the country looks superb.

About MK and Albania...:ohno:

Im going to try and explain this as simply as possible.

Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks! A PROVEN FACT (want facts, ask me)

Macedonia existed since 800b.c ... the name 'Greece' has existed for less than 200years.

Ancient Macedonians spoke their own language from which very little proof is left.

In the 6th century a.d Slavic tribes migrated (from somwhere) to the WHOLE balkan peninsula and settled as far south as ATHENS. With time the slavs mixed with the local populations. The Slavs in Macedonia intermixed with the romanised descendent's of the ancient macedonians. The slavs adopted christianity FROM the macedonians, while with time the slavic dialects predominated Macedonia.

Let me also note that Apostle Paul Christiand the first European in Macedonia, the macedonian women Lidia in the 3rd century a.d.. <--this is 3 hundred years before the slav migrations. Lidia is still to this day amongst the most popular female names in R.Macedonia.

The original slavs from 6th century a.d also mixed with the greeks, however since the greek language had been strongly used since ancient times, a 'disfigured' version of it managed to survive until 1830 around greek independence, although half of greece proper (south of mt. olympus) even then spoke slavic dialects. Now it is very interesting to see how today the population of Greece "speaks the same language of the ancient greeks"... when in reality they dont: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharevousa

Another fact, "slavic" speaking Macedonians are the ONLY macedonians who consider themselves as ETHNIC MACEDONIANS. Its so sad to read your greek propaganda by speaking of "2million (greek)Macedonians in (greek)macedonia". The only people who have an ethnic macedonian conscience in Greece are the "slavic" speaking Macedonians which the Greek government fails to recognise. When Karamanlis said he is one of "2 million macedonians in Greece".. people in R.Macedonia started sarcastically laughing and congratulating your premier for recognising that 2 million macedonians live in greece, if u know what i mean. If Karamanlis wants to be macedonian he is welcome, the more of us the better :)
The most pathetic thing of all is that half of the population of Greek-macedonia are greeks who have only lived their for 80years, their homeland is in asia minor, and yet these people try to dare claim macedonian culture and history.

And to all the idiots who think an ethnic macedonian identity was created by Tito, please tell me who created the ethnic macedonians in mala prespa region in albania, the ethnic macedonians in florina, edessa, kastoria and other areas in greece and who created the ethnic macedonians in Bulgaria who are forbidden to recognise a pilitical party because of their ethnic identity. Answer me this question, or did Tito have a magical hipnotic power which extended into neighbouring countries and hypnotized them with a macedonian ethnic identity.

QUOTES;



January 28, 1867

To the Editor of "Makedonija" newspaper: ...The Greeks and the greacomans have met the newspaper with sorrow, since they always tried to hellenize the Macedonians, destroying also the Archibishopric of Ohrid -The Spark of Our Future. Yet, however hard they have tried to stop us from making progress, they could not entirely uproot the feelings of the Macedonians that they are Macedonians. T.I. Kusev, Makedonija, Istanbul, Nbr. I (1/28/1867)

March 25, 1870

...lets us consider those of the present Macedonians who blinded by concealed glow of Hellenic wisdom, accept that they should scorn and revoke their own nationality...the time seems opportune for me to exclaim:Ah, how far away the time really is when Hellas, as everybody calls her today, was subjected to Macedonian authority... Stefan Zahariev, Chitalishte, Istanbul, I/7, 1871, p.214-216.

November 30, 1870

...A teacher named Mr. Shapkarevic...has come to visit me...the same day the books you had sent me...arrived. But as soon as he saw them he said that they should not be taught in the Macedonian schools, since they were in the Bulgarian dialect; and that we should take his books which are in the Macedonian dialect... Pravo of 10/30/1870 (according to B. Koneski, Kon Makedonskata prerodba, p.68).


1890

Karl Hron: "The Nationality of the Macedonian Slavs": ...From my own studies of the Serbo-Bulgarian dispute I came to the conviction that the Macedonians are an individual nation, both by their history and their language; thus, they are neither Serbs nor Bulgarians... Karl Hron, Das Volksthum der Slaven Makedoniens, Wien 1890, S. 4-5, 15-17, 20, 22,26

1897

William Gladstone ...Next to the Ottoman Govt. nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy then jealousies between Greek and Slav, and plans by the States already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not Macedonia for Macedonians, as well as Bulgaria for Bulgarians and Servia for Servians. And if they are small and weak, let them bind themselves together for defence, so that they may not be devoured by others, either great and small, which would probably be the effect of their quarreling among themselves. The Times (London), 6th January 1897, p.12

1902

Appeal of the "National Macedonian-Albanian League" Brother Macedonians! Brother Albanians! ...There is no need that the Bulgarians, the Greeks or others amend our homeland... Executive Committee British Museum (British Library), London, 1902


1903

Victor Berard on the Macedonians. The ambition for a small homeland, the egotism of a small nation, is not the ultimate ideal of the Macedonians. To replace Turkish subjugation with Greek, Serbian or Bulgarian dependence does not seem to them to represent some great gain...Until recently France did not know the Macedonians. They were Thracian, Peons, Sclavins for us, a wild and almost a mythical people, that lived somewhere at the bottom of some unknown land for us. We either did not know them or despised them, since we heard of them from the malicious notes of the ancient and modern Greeks... La Revue de Paris, Juin 1903.

Sorry guys but everything we have written has alot to do with NATO, since Greece will try to stop macedonia from entering NATO by claiming we have a stolen identity which "belongs" to them... and i have proof it doesnt. I REST MY CASE.

Come on GM, are you trying to surpass chicagogeorge with his mega posts and endless quotes?

Just leave it alone, it's not worth it... Let's go back to the actual NATO discussion if we can.

:cheers:

Ok ive left it alone, although i have much more proof where that came from. The only reason why i started this is because the greeks and others who believe their veiws seem to think we are a fake made-up nation with no proof of identity, whereas in reality we have tons of proof but we cannot be bothered dealing with them since in the end they will not change their views.

Im outa this topic anyway, i dare greece to veto MK nato membership, then not only will we remain Republic of Macedonia, we will put it to the vote in the UN to recognise us and the talks will end. Macedonians have suffered from people who are intend on destroying them for far too long.

Bye bye.

I totally agree with you GreatMakedon...but also i want to mention that Jesus Christ, Orpheus...probably even Buddha...They're all Macedonians.
I support the idea for GREAT MACEDONIAN EMPIRE!!!
F**K BULGARIA, F**K GREECE, F**K SERBIA, F**K ALBANIA!!!
MACEDONIA WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD!!!:banana::banana::banana::banana:

Im going to try and explain this as simply as possible.

Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks! A PROVEN FACT (want facts, ask me)

Macedonia existed since 800b.c ... the name 'Greece' has existed for less than 200years.

Ancient Macedonians spoke their own language from which very little proof is left. .
^^

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Please......

@GM
1) We are not in the maknews.
2) Have you any serious textbook source except the quotes?
3) It's a pity that there is not Nobel prize in history. You may had one tonight.
4) Unfortunately, for you, Vergina has dozens of Greek writings.

I totally agree with you GreatMakedon...but also i want to mention that Jesus Christ, Orpheus...probably even Buddha...They're all Macedonians.
I support the idea for GREAT MACEDONIAN EMPIRE!!!
F**K BULGARIA, F**K GREECE, F**K SERBIA, F**K ALBANIA!!!
MACEDONIA WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD!!!:banana::banana::banana::banana:


AND F**K YOU TOO:lol:

Sorry to interrupt you but have anyone of you succeeded to upload any music to ipod nano 3G (the gray one)...under linux?!?

I tried with gtkpod, tried with amarok (both use libgpod and failed)...downloaded the newest SVN snapshot of libgpod and gpod...failed again...tried with YamiPod...and failed again...I'm considering a windows xen guest domain...or windows in qemu.

I fucking hate Apple and their junk hardware! I'm gonna kill someone!

Yeah...I know it's offtopic...but so is the discusion anyway..

^^ It's not off topic. NATO supports Apple.

this is one of the reasons why I close military related threads