LISBURN - Maze Stadium (35,000)

[NeilF]

Renders for the proposed stadium on the site of the former Maze Prison in Northern Ireland were finally released on Thursday 13th December. The proposed stadium has an all-seated capacity of 35,000, with the potential to create terracing at the goal ends of the stadium, taking capacity up to some 42,500. The stadium will play host to Northern Ireland football internationals, Ulster Rugby's home European games and will host various GAA matches. It may also be used for one rugby Autumn International each year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_maze_stadium_plans/img/1.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_maze_stadium_plans/img/2.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_maze_stadium_plans/img/3.jpg

[Quintana]

Looks nice. Seeing it will be used for GAA, does that mean it will have one of those enormous pitches?

[Joop20]

This is a great development, I didn't know there were any stadium plans for a new stadium on this scale in Northern Ireland. Can you indicate on a map where it is exactly located?

GAA doesn't require a huge pitch size, Croke park in Dublin for example also has a rectangular pitch. I think you're confusing GAA sports with Aussie Rules Football?

[Joop20]

I just looked up the location of this proposed stadium, why the heck is it planned there? Wouldn't it be more sensible to build it in Belfast, like this site proposes:

http://www.stadiumforbelfast.com/

[NeilF]

Joop, the playing surface of a GAA pitch is considerably larger than a soccer or rugby pitch, so while maintaining the rectangular shape, the rectangle is larger than that of soccer or rugby. For example, this is the rugby marking on the pitch at Croke Park:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Rugby_pitch_at_Croke_Park.jpg/450px-Rugby_pitch_at_Croke_Park.jpg

For GAA, the goalposts and sidelines are almost on the extremity of the playing surface:

http://kildare.ie/groupC/images/cp660.jpg

The proposed Maze Stadium will have a similiar playing surface.

From Google Earth:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/nicolinadavidson/MazeStadiumSite.jpg

There have been other proposed sites in and around Belfast City Centre, but I've yet to see one that could actually prove to be valid or desirable; the Stadium For Belfast, for example, is proposed to be built on council playing fields, another proposed city centre site was on the site of Maysfield Leisure centre, which is about half of the required size for a 25,000 seat stadium, never mind a larger one. A site in the old docklands that I myself advocated can't be built on as it is still in use and the property, as such, unaffordable. Add to that the fact that the GAA have no use for a stadium in Belfast (they already have Casement Park with a 32,500 capacity about a mile and a half from the city centre), and the Maze site becomes the most suitable place, apparently. Personally, I'm really not too sure about the site - I think it is an attempt to make a site work, rather than an attempt to build a stadium that will work, but unfortunately, the plans for stadia in Belfast City are unviable unless built through private enterprise or by Belfast City Council. I don't think the Maze site is a desirable solution for a stadium in Northern Ireland, especially given how centralised the population of NI is, but no other viable sites or plans have come forward.

[Quintana]

This is a great development, I didn't know there were any stadium plans for a new stadium on this scale in Northern Ireland. Can you indicate on a map where it is exactly located?

GAA doesn't require a huge pitch size, Croke park in Dublin for example also has a rectangular pitch. I think you're confusing GAA sports with Aussie Rules Football?

Croke Park has a rectangular pitch (like all GAA stadiums) but it is huge (something like 150 by 100 meters).

[www.sercan.de]

Looks a bit like Landsdowne
http://www.lrsdc.ie/_fileupload/INT_RUGB%201200%20x%20872.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_maze_stadium_plans/img/1.jpg

http://www.lrsdc.ie/_fileupload/EXTERIOR%201200%20x%20712.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_maze_stadium_plans/img/2.jpg

[NeilF]

At least this one doesn't have a duff North Stand!

[Joop20]

Croke Park has a rectangular pitch (like all GAA stadiums) but it is huge (something like 150 by 100 meters).

My mistake.

[EADGBE]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_maze_stadium_plans/img/1.jpg

Perhaps the need to incorporate a larger GAA surface explains the rather odd lower tier layour.

NeilF, I know you had reservations about the location, even though the sheer space and the symbolism count in its favour. As I remember, your preference was the area of land adjacent to the City Airport.

To what extent are the renders an indication that the project will definitely happen?

[lpioe]

Very nice design :okay:
Especially the outside looks great.

[NeilF]

Perhaps the need to incorporate a larger GAA surface explains the rather odd lower tier layour.

NeilF, I know you had reservations about the location, even though the sheer space and the symbolism count in its favour. As I remember, your preference was the area of land adjacent to the City Airport.

To what extent are the renders an indication that the project will definitely happen?

At this stage, I really don't think these renders indicate much more than the original 'masterplan' of the whole site, in terms of project timelines and whatnot. The Northern Ireland Assembley were scheduled to have a meeting about the stadium on Thursday, which has now been delayed as feasibility studies and business plans have not been forthcoming - essentially the same news that we've been hearing for a couple of years. Apparently, the consultation alone has now cost almost £2m, with very little to show for it, so while this represents a bit of an advancement, until feasibility studies and business plans are published, I doubt that this represents significant progress with regards to actually getting the stadium built.

My proposal for the site south-west of the city airport was, if I remember correctly, a suggestion for a private enterprise stadium for Glentoran F.C. and Ulster Rugby, rather than as a national stadium. I recently discovered that the land in question is still used by the Harland and Wolff shipyard and, as such, would command a property price in excess of the budget of either club. However, I have come to a conclusion that another site, directly east of the Waterfront Hall, would be a more suitable site; unused at present and comfortable big enough to hold a much larger than required stadium, and with the added benefit of sitting right on the river.

While I maintain certain reservations about the Maze site, and wasn't a supporter of it originally (it seems superflous to mention that I opposed it for practical, rather than political reasons, but something I'd like to make clear); specifically that it is a good 10 miles from Belfast City Centre and no detailed transport policy has yet come forward (a brief mention of a rail link came along but NIR, at this moment in time, really don't have the rolling stock for that to be viable). As it is, I've come to feel that it would represent a good move for the GAA, who would look to host Ulster finals at the stadium and would draw support from all over the province and for Northern Ireland football, who draw support from all over the country. As a rugby fan, I'm not so sure if it represents a great move, except for the potential of an annual international game in Northern Ireland - 35,000 seats for a team that could hope to attract about 15,000 - 17,000 fans for a Heineken Cup ground game (and that really hasn't looked like making the QF's since we won the competition back in 1999) is slightly excessive and may not prove a terribly good move, given rental price of the stadium.

All in all, the only major beef I have with the site is that the original plans were for a single lower bowl and a mechanism to 'shutter off' the two upper tiers at either side of the stadium. It seems this plan has now been abandoned, given these renders, which could lead the the stadium feeling rather empty at rugby matches and, perhaps, certain football matches as well. The stadium represents a big step forward for Northern Ireland; it represents a very positive step forward for the site in particular and while I still have my reservations, I cannot see a more suitable national stadium being built in Northern Ireland.

Hopefully we'll see more progress, including those feasibility studies and business plans, coming a little more quickly from here on in.

[Gherkin]

Perfect for Northern Ireland :)

[IHaveNoLegs]

nice ground, even if it is a bit similar to lansdowne road. would it be worth putting in reatractable seating for the first tier to make seating closer to the field for football/rugby?

[NeilF]

The pitch dimensions for GAA are usually about 90 metres by 150 metres. For international games, which is really all that this stadium would be used for, a soccer pitch can be a maximum of 110 metres by 75 metres. At the sides of the pitch, I really don't think retractable seating would be necessary - the 7.5 metres in question isn't considerably greater than the UEFA requirement on four and five star stadia. At the ends of the stadium, we're talking about some 20 metres at either end which is, perhaps, a little excessive. What I've notived about the render is that the end stand to the fore of the picture extends considerably further than those at the side - I'm wondering if some manner of retractable seating may have been included in the render?

[CharlieP]

NeilF, where is Ravenhill on the satellite photo you posted?

[NeilF]

Here's the site of the four main stadia currently in Belfast in relation to the Maze site.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/nicolinadavidson/BelfastStadia.jpg

I think I remember a thread at the start of the summer where you mentioned you were looking forward to seeing Ravenhill packed out for the Ireland vs. Italy game. I found this picture on the Ulster Rugby website. It might be of interest:

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/images/news/ioLoadImage.jpg

[EADGBE]

I would say this to those reservations about whether the 35k capacity is too large to be justifiable on a regular basis: If the Celtic Nations tournament or even a full Home Nations got off the ground at the end of the season (on odd years), I'm sure the NI home games would be quite easily sold out.

[NeilF]

Ah, but I am a rugby fan, not a football or GAA fan really. I think this stadium could be great for both of those sports but possibly not rugby, especially given Ulster's dire form this season! :(

[G.C.]

Normal form mate, normal form.

ITs too big, GAA have Casement and Ulster have Ravenhill, and too far out of where the vast majority of Northern Ireland suporters come from and where the bars and restraunts are.

I will never go to this ground when built, and I wont go into the reasons why.

[NeilF]

GC - I can accept the opposition to out of town stadia; the site will be, basically, in a field in the middle of nowhere and that is something that needs to be addressed. That said, I've visted a large number of stadia in similiar locations and have found the atmosphere on transport to the site only added to the experience. Lots of singing, chanting (and drinking) on the train; lots of friendly rivalry and banter and, generally an extension of the good atmosphere at and around the stadium.

I disagree with regards to Casement Park and Ravenhill, however; Ravenhill has not been fit for purpose for the best part of a decade. When Ulster's average gate was around 3,000 in 1998 the capacity and facilities present were all that were required for the needs of Ulster Rugby at that time. In 2007, average attendances are around the 10,000 mark with frequent sellouts for the interprovincial and Heineken Cup games. The facilities are stretched and there is no longer excess capacity at the ground. Because of a lack of egress at the Aquinas End of the stadium, the long and thin shape of the site, opposition from local residents and a lack of feeder roads to and from the stadium, not to mention adjacent car parking, Ravenhill is no longer suitable for Ulster Rugby as a de facto club. More than that, ever step taken to redevelop Ravenhill seems to meet with opposition from local residents who have gone as far as to oppose a long-term development of the stadium that reduced capacity because it included the building of a permanant bar. The truth is that Ravenhill's days as a Heineken Cup ground are likely to be limited and while it will be maintained for the other uses of Ulster Branch and Ulster Rugby, something more is needed. It's not simply a case of Ulster having Ravenhill anymore. I've made my capacity concerns with regards to Ulster fairly clear but more is needed for Ulster than Ravenhill can give and given a lack of suitable city centre sites coming forth, it is probably the best option on the table at the minute.

The same can be said for Casement Park. I'm not sure if you've ever been to Casement (I'd recommend it if you haven't - even if you have no great interest in the sports played there, it really does generate a fantastic atmosphere when full), but it's little more than a crumbling husk of terracing with about 1,000 seats, a few porta-loos and a wall for the men to relieve themselves against. Facility and capacity wise it is no longer fit to host Ulster finals. Indeed, beyond last year when a clash with the Leinster finals meant that the Ulster finals were played at St Tiernach's Park in Clones, Monaghan, the Ulster Branch of the GAA has chosen to play its finals at Croke Park. Ulster finals in Leinster is a disappointment for all concerned but a suitable venue does not exist in Ulster or Northern Ireland at present. It would with this stadium.

For football, I feel roughly the same way - having looked at the practicalities of egress and access to Windsor Park, it suffers from similiar problems as Ravenhill. I can't remember if Linfield ever did sell Midgley Park or not but if so, I think the maximum capacity, without expansion south, would be somewhere around 18,000 - 20,000. While I think that some redevelopment of Windsor Park is needed; both in the interim building of a new stadium in NI, wherever it be, and for Irish League finals, I don't think it represents a long-term future for the NI international team. Again in the absence of a viable alternative, I think the stadium at The Maze represents a better future for NI football than Windsor Park.

Having talked to many people from NI, I understand many of the concerns they have, both practically and politically and while I may not agree with those views and concerns, I fully respect them - ultimately, this is a stadium that is to be built for the benefit of Northern Ireland and the people of Northern Ireland. If those people don't feel it is the best option then there is a worry.

[EADGBE]

Normal form mate, normal form.

ITs too big, GAA have Casement and Ulster have Ravenhill, and too far out of where the vast majority of Northern Ireland suporters come from and where the bars and restraunts are.

I will never go to this ground when built, and I wont go into the reasons why.

I appreciate your concerns about its distance from the city centre. However, you do realise that when it comes to the 'not going into the reasons' bit, then rightly or wrongly, this being Northern Ireland, maybe others may draw certain inferences from this...

[SkyLerm]

That development looks great, nice stuff ;)

[G.C.]

On the stadum itself it is like the designers said, a copy of the MK Dons stadium, big lower deck and a small upper deck, with Da Luz style upper teir.

[Irish Blood English Heart]

Why dont Ulster play at Windsor Park?

[city_thing]

That maze stadium site is so far out of Belfast...

Is there a good public transport link between Central belfast and the site, other than the motorway?

[Wezza]

nice ground, even if it is a bit similar to lansdowne road. would it be worth putting in reatractable seating for the first tier to make seating closer to the field for football/rugby?
It looks to me like the end stands are planned to be retractable.

[dysan1]

Great to finally see the Belfast area getting a proper stadium. Have not been near the maze site in years, only catching glimpses from the freeway. Hopefully it will find more use than just a couple times a year though.

And i also see the similarity with Landsdowne, but its a design that seems to work far better on this smaller stadium. How long is going to take to build?

Only concern is that its a bit far out of town, but with all the growth really taking place to the west anyway, it makes long term sense

[Tom Hughes]

It may be a mistake in the rendering but there seems to be a glaring blindspot in the corners of the middle tier where the exec box end walls protrude out into this tier. The renderer as filled in the crowd right up against this wall, and I can't see how they could possibly see up the pitch on their near side..... artistic license, or maybe I've misread it. Might be a bit fragmented for a decent atmosphere.... Like the outside though!

[NeilF]

UTV have released estimated costs of the project:

http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=87616&pt=n

It is estimated that the stadium would cost £126 million to build and would need an additional £114 million investment to improve the transport infrastructure around the isolated site.

Considering a total cost of £240m for construction of a 35,000 capacity stadium, one could perhaps expect something a little more.

- Ulster do not play at Windsor Park because it would not be a suitable venue; Windsor Park has a maximum usable capacity of about 13,000; given that Ulster Rugby owns Ravenhill, Windsor Park does not represent a significant enough increase in capacity for Ulster to make the move. On top of that, Ravenhill is not only home to Ulster Rugby but to all of the functions of the Ulster Branch of the IRFU, including school-level and club cup finals.

- There is a railway line running near to the site and there have been musings of a rail link to the stadium. This comes despite NIR, the local railway operator in Northern Ireland, simply not having enough rolling stock at this moment in time to make it feasible. At present, public transportation to the site is atrocious.

[x-marien-x]

any news?

[NeilF]

From the Belfast Telegraph:

Maze plan 'doomed' as Windsor Park gets an upgrade

The prospects of a multi-sports stadium being built at the Maze appeared doomed today after a new deal between Sinn Fein and the DUP ruled it out for another four years, The Belfast Telegraph can reveal.

However, the two parties have agreed that a Conflict Resolution Centre will be built on the former prison site near Lisburn.

According to senior Stormont sources, the deal surrounding the Maze blueprint will rule out a stadium for at least another four years, casting serious doubt over whether it will ever be built. Instead, early in the New Year, Sports Minister Gregory Campbell will confirm that a major refurbishment of Windsor Park will go ahead.

The business plan for the stadium will include the building of a new 4,000 seat capacity stand.

There will be a commitment from the minister to re-visit the issue of a national stadium once the overall world and local economic situation improves.

But there will be significant additions to the overall infrastructure of the Maze site to help with the projection of a united political front between the DUP and Sinn Fein.

However, DUP Junior Minister Jeffrey Donaldson today denied that a final agreement about the development at the former Maze Prison had been reached.

“The current situation is that discussions are ongoing between departments about the development of the Maze site and while some progress has been made, no decisions have been made yet in terms of either the Conflict Transformation Centre or the Stadium,” he said.

But the Telegraph has learned that final touches to the redrawn Maze master plan were discussed during the visit to the United States earlier this month by Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness.

The changes were central to talks held with potential investors.

According to the government source, part of the package will include a reappraisal of the needs of the three main sports. It will include individual deals being struck or a link up between two of the sports. The most likely option is that a smaller stadium to cope with the requirements of soccer and rugby will be developed.

As the strongest supporter of the Maze stadium the GAA continues to refuse to speculate publicly on its alternative option choice.

The funding of the controversial Conflict Resolution Centre will come from various sources including the European Community. The prospect of additional funding from the United States is also on the cards.

The agreement between the two main political blocs in relation to the Conflict Resolution Centre was a necessary marriage of convenience in order to break the long running Executive logjam and the funding from outside sources will help protect the DUP’s against allegations being directly involved with a “shrine to terrorism.”

Despite comments from Junior Minister Gerry Kelly that there would be no political deal unless the Maze Stadium went ahead at the original site, the Telegraph understands that from a Sinn Fein perspective the “building of a sports stadium was always secondary to the Conflict Resolution Centre being a pivotal part of the redevelopment programme”.

Mr Campbell will address the Department of Culture, Art and Leisure committee tomorrow morning. His agenda will be the issue of Sports Stadia Safety legislation and its implementation across the province. However, the legislation will be tied-in with a decision to go ahead with the scheme at Windsor Park. The pressing need for spectator safety at the home of international football will be used as justification for the project going ahead.

Source: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/maze-plan-doomed-as-windsor-park-gets-an-upgrade-14101022.html

Presumably, this means that a new 4,000 capacity stand will be built at the Railway (East) stand at Windsor Park? I'm very disappointed to see that football seems to be the main consideration in the short-term. Windsor Park is, indeed, in a bad way but Ravenhill and Casement Park could equally do with such considerations for their own redevelopment necessities.

[michał_]

Dissapointed to see that as well. After all, the upgrade of Windsor Park was always said as part of the means to convince the federations to move to Lisburn in the end. From what I remember all current tenants had problems funding the needed works and governement promised to do it if they agree to move. So this is so much of an anti-climax...

[G.C.]

Dissapointed to see that as well. After all, the upgrade of Windsor Park was always said as part of the means to convince the federations to move to Lisburn in the end. From what I remember all current tenants had problems funding the needed works and governement promised to do it if they agree to move. So this is so much of an anti-climax...

You're worng on both count. Its better to know what you're talking about before posting.

[Wolds Mariner]

But what are the alternatives? It seems to me that the Windsor Park plan is no more than short-termism. I think I have an idea of why you are so opposed to the Maze plan, but if that is the best option on the table, then should we let that block 'progress'?

[G.C.]

The maze is dead, long live the Windsor!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7856036.stm

[www.sercan.de]

so itc canceled.

If its official i will merge the thread with never built ones :)

[NeilF]

I have to be honest - having seen the costings laid out for this stadium and the transport infrastructure, I'm glad that this nightmare has finally been put to bed. Long-term, replacements for Windsor Park and Ravenhill are certainly needed and I think it would be desirable to have improvements made to Casement Park or other GAA stadia in Northern Ireland. I don't think the sports will suffer - I think the will all benefit by being able to take a line that best suits the needs of those sports, rather than the giant compromise that was this stadium. This stadium was always a political move and the sports were asked to fit their needs around that; I don't think that is ever good for the sports themselves. Hopefully, whatever steps are next taken will be for the genuine benefit of the sports!

[G.C.]

If you haven't seen my posts in the NI/Sports sections this is what Windsor will be like when finished:

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2663/windsormilwallox2.png

Windsor atm is on the right.

[matthemod]

Wait a minute....Millwall?!

Might just be because i'm a Gillingham fan...but surely N.I. deserve something a bit better stadium than this! Ok fair enough it's not an overly Bad stadium...but it's bland and made to a budget!

[Wolds Mariner]

It just seems to me that giving money to the IFA and Linfield to keep Windsor Park up to scratch is short-termist. A new, multi-purpose, national stadium for Northern Ireland has to be a priority, surely.

[G.C.]

Wait a minute....Millwall?!

Might just be because i'm a Gillingham fan...but surely N.I. deserve something a bit better stadium than this! Ok fair enough it's not an overly Bad stadium...but it's bland and made to a budget!

You're forgetting the IFA don't own the stadium. We, Linfield, the owners, get an average of £350,000 for them using the stadium and facilities for internationals. Almost all of that goes back into the upkeep of the ground. It costs us £200 to open the North Stand for away supporters, which averages 30 when it isn't a Belfast team, and that doesn't include lighting and clean up afterwards.

Last year we spent all of the income on new disabled facilities, fire exits and turnstile technology.

As I said, learn the facts before commenting.

[matthemod]

As I said, learn the facts before commenting.

Bit cold in here isn't it!

Fair enough I didn't know that, I was just saying it would be a shame that the Northern Ireland national team could end up in such a ground, when you compare it to what they may have had. I guess with the financial constraints a Millwall esque ground isn't too bad...