I’ll show you a few google-screenshots of new suburbs in the Netherlands.

Though it looks spectacular from above, the architecture is quite often very dull and boring (imho ;)) I’ve got mixed feelings with this type of cityplanning. On one hand the shapes of these new suburbs are very remarkable, the use of water between circles and squares makes a residential area look like a piece of art by itself. On the other hand, the new suburbs have nothing to do with the history of the local rural area, they are superimposed like if nothing was there before.

What do you think of it?

1. A new palm in Rotterdam (Carnisselande)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Nemo01/vinex04.jpg

2. Squares in The Hague (Leidschenveen)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Nemo01/vinex01.jpg

3. More squares in The Hague (Ypenburg). As you can see, they hired different developers for different plots.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Nemo01/vinex02.jpg

4. Huge square near Alkmaar (HAL)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Nemo01/vinex05.jpg

5. Huge circle in Purmerend (Weidefenne)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Nemo01/vinex07.jpg

6. A different new way of reshaping the countryside north of ‘s Hertogenbosch, residential areas like castles in the open fields. (Haverleij)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Nemo01/vinex06.jpg

It is exactly like you said, they may look nice from above but being at street level the repetitive architecture and the lack of facilities results in an unheimisch feeling.

Every mass housing project becomes dull. Our 70's and 80's neighborhoods aren't that much better, although they have more greenery, but you can't expect a treeless polder that becomes a neighborhood to have tall trees within 5 years.

Very interesting. Can the average Dutch family afford to live in such a development? I understand tax rates are very high there.

Also, do residents of such suburbs tend to only drive to work, or do a lot bike like they do in large cities?

There are similar developments in the U.S. I think there's one in Sugar Land, TX like that, though probably with larger detached single-family houses.

Also, do residents of such suburbs tend to only drive to work, or do a lot bike like they do in large cities?

It's a mix.

These new developments are usually somewhat further away from working locations and the historic city center. (European cities often lack a huge business downtown, jobs are spread over industrial or office parks in the city).

A lot of these jobs are further away than the average distance people tend to take their bike to work, so these developments usually generates more car traffic than the older neighborhoods.

The main problem is they build a lot of these neighborhoods, though they don't adjust the infrastructure to these spatial developments, so traffic jams are common on the entrance routes from and to these urban areas.

Another issue is, that a lot households here have 2 incomes, and they often have 2 cars, which needs different parking-standards than the older neighborhoods. Unlike American suburbs, which usually include a private parking garage, Dutch new urban area's are usually full with cars, because you have to use the (limited) public parking lots along the streets. The street image is therefore not very scenic.

Though this kind of spatial planning was created in order to reduce commutings from further-away-towns, by building new urban areas in the main regional city, so people tend to live closer to their jobs, but often not on biking-distance (however that differs from person to person, some don't take their bike over 4km, some still use their bike on 15km commutes).

The usually only mode of public transportation are buses, which are usually slow, and only focused on the city center and main trainstation, rather than the job locations, so moving around with the bus is slow, and often the bike is faster.

that first one you show isn't Nesselande --> it looks like a part of Carnisselande, that area is on the southside of Rotterdam instead of Northeast (which is Nesselande)
:) On that "Palm Island" lives a friend of mine...that how I recognised it..

These suburbs are most of the time not so nice, but every now or then there actually very nice residential developments but most of the time everything looks the same anyway! ;)

Thanks for the note Patrick.

Can the average Dutch family afford to live in such a development?These housing projects are especially for the middle and higher incomes. The middle class can buy a house in the dense middle of the suburb and the people who can afford a little bit more live on the edges (often with water) of the suburbs. People with low incomes cannot afford to live here, they stay in the cities of course.

Thanks for the note Patrick.

These housing projects are especially for the middle and higher incomes. The middle class can buy a house in the dense middle of the suburb and the people who can afford a little bit more live on the edges (often with water) of the suburbs. People with low incomes cannot afford to live here, they stay in the cities of course.

I don't fuly agree on that one. Devellopers are forced by local governments to build at least 30% social housing in most suburbs.

^^ Yes, but those are usually apartments. I live in such a suburb, and the cheapest houses are around 180.000 - 200.000 euro's, which is still some 290.000 dollars.

200.000 - 250.000 euros is a typical "starters house", who those who just started on the housing market. For this budget, you usually have a small row-house with 3 bedrooms, and a yard.

Larger family homes are usually over 300.000 euro's. (450.000 dollars).

These red-roofed row-houses on the upper right costs about 250.000 - 350.00 euros
http://www.zwolle.nl/cms/luchtfoto.nsf/Lookup/5997%205057/$file/59975057.jpg

^^
200-250 K euros is the typical house for a starter on the market?
The modal income in the Netherlands is about 31.000 euros (gross). In that case, a man can finance his house with a mortgage loan of (4 * 31.000 =) 124.000 euros.
So, houses of 200 K euros are only for the starter who has a partner who is also working fulltime. It's very poor. It means no time for the kids and a lot of stressful feelings. The divorce rate in such neighbourhoods is really high (some people say even 80%!). Financial distress (see the high prices of the houses), which causes the stressful feelings, is the main factor of this high rate.
(source (in Dutch): http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/article257668.ece)

^^Nice info Sol ><

^^

That's why at least 30% of housing in the suburbs is social development, usually for rent for about €500,- / €700,- a month. These houses are equal to the typical starters house; +/- 3 bedroom, 180m² living space and a 60m² garden.

There's also something called "koopsubsidie", which means people with a low income receive a small monthly payment from the government. Some local governments even provide low interest starters mortgages. These cost less than a normal mortgage at start, but as your income rises, so does your monthly mortgage payment.

In a typical Dutch family men work fulltime and women part-time. Day-care centres are very expensive. Therefore it's cheaper for mothers to work part-time and take care of the children.

It's a fact the Dutch housing market is overheated, there are simply not enough houses for everyone. Even at a construction rate of 100.000 new homes a year the market can't keep up. In most cities thousands of small, low quality houses build in the 50's and 60's, just after WWII, are being demolished. These are replaced by larger houses, meaning a lower building density. To compromise this effect large suburbs are being build at the outskirts of these cities. Holland is also the third most densely populated country in the world. Nearly every square km is populated, meaning open space is hard to come by and expensive.

I would like to add that population density-comparison with other countries like South Korea or Taiwan can't be done properly, because their main average density comes from very dense cities, but Dutch cities are not very dense. The Delta metropolis or Randstad might be one of the least dense multi-million agglomerations in the world. Unlike many countries, our countryside relies completely on the nearby regional city. That creates many transportation problems, because of the low density of the Delta Metropolis, and the large commute from the spread-out low density semi-rural area's, public transportation is not very effecient as you might expect from a multi-million metropolitan area. Though trains are usually busy, but largely filled with students who don't have other transportation options. Therefore, our roads are the busiest in Europe with a lot of traffic jams.

If you look at a map, and see there are a lot of motorways, that's very true, the problem is not the number of motorways, but their capacity, most motorways are only 2x2 lanes, as you might see in the countryside, but also within urban area's or on commuter routes.

I never saw a country with more organized suburbs than Netherlands

^^

Chris, I fuly agree on that one.

Nice thread. This is where i live:
http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=nl&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=dokkum&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=31.426353,59.238281&ie=UTF8&ll=53.31657,6.013985&spn=0.011562,0.028925&t=k&z=15&om=1

Nice, though not realy a suburb ;)

The Delta metropolis or Randstad might be one of the least dense multi-million agglomerations in the world. .

:| Maybe because Delta metropolis is not an agglomeration,...

This is so fascinating. Thank you, contributors.

So, aside from bus routes, there are no viable public transportation options? Also, are there height limitations, that is, are mid-rise condominiums frowned upon (or just not desirable)?

I fully understand the complaints, but I would take this in the U.S. any day over our new subdivisions and exurban developments! It's unfortunate to hear about the banal streetscape, however, I'm sure ample amounts of mature foliage will go a long way in humanizing it.

Most cities only have bus lines. Though some larger cities have trams, a trolley bus and metro lines in Rotterdam and Amsterdam.

To your point of height limitations, a lot of cities have them. In my city of Zwolle, it used to be 90m. There are always a lot of comments when plans arrive for somewhat higher buildings (like the ones that are higher than trees).

I remember a recent issue in my city where there was a plan for a "high building". It turned out to be a 4 floor apartment building. That shows us some about the attitude of the media towards highrises. A 40m building can often be described as "the colossal building at the shopping center" for instance.

what is this???

it looks like retired barge's that have been recycled and use as land :p
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.255155,4.733348&spn=0.019177,0.040169&t=k&z=15&om=1

In the Randstad Delta Metropolis people are much more used to high rise. Zoetermeer for instance is a large suburb near The Hague and similar in seize of Zwolle. The building height is now limited at 120m. Planes are being developed to build a 164m tall skyscraper, which would be the tallest building in The Netherlands. In Zoetermeer itself the planes where received with enthusiasm, though there was a lot of criticism from outside the Randstad. 22 high rises between 50m and 90m where constructed here and another 11 between 90m and 120m are being planed, hardly without any public protests.

In the Randstad public transport is much better than the rest of the country, yet not as efficient as you'd expect from a multi-million agglomeration. Most suburbs in the Randstad are connected with the regional city by either train, streetcars/trams, light rail or subway. As long as traveling by car is much more efficient, commuters will not see public transport as a viable alternative.

Most cities only have bus lines. Though some larger cities have trams, a trolley bus and metro lines in Rotterdam and Amsterdam.

To your point of height limitations, a lot of cities have them. In my city of Zwolle, it used to be 90m. There are always a lot of comments when plans arrive for somewhat higher buildings (like the ones that are higher than trees).

I remember a recent issue in my city where there was a plan for a "high building". It turned out to be a 4 floor apartment building. That shows us some about the attitude of the media towards highrises. A 40m building can often be described as "the colossal building at the shopping center" for instance.

Come on, aren't you exxagerating a tiny bit? I'm pretty sure there's a 100m highrise building smack dab in the middle of your city.

what is this???

it looks like retired barge's that have been recycled and use as land :p
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.255155,4.733348&spn=0.019177,0.040169&t=k&z=15&om=1

The land in this area used to be peat-soil, traditionally used for cooking and domestic heating. Winning the peat caused the land to descent below the ground water level, creating these somewhat strange looking lakes.

Planes are being developed to build a 164m tall skyscraper, which would be the tallest building in The Netherlands.

There are several other plans of higher buildings than the 164m skyscraper.
-Belle van Zuylen - Utrecht - 262m
-Woontoren Zalmhaven - Rotterdam - 185m
-Baltimore - Rotterdam - 173.3m

In The Netherlands we make plans and we take all kind of things into consideration. If it comes to housing, roads, etc. we give everyone a voice and it is a slow progress. The following area´s are officially called by our gouverment `bad` neighbourhoods.
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=fduWIKa02Ik
http://www.berkeveld.nl/oost_watergraafsmeer/amsterdam_oost_watergraafsmeer.php

Taxes in The Netherlands are high, but on international statistics they are certainly not extremely high. For companies the taxes are reasonable, and there are a lot of investment benefits. Taxes for companies are lower than in most western countries including the USA.

In the Netherlands there is a shortage of housing. Many people stay at home longer. Renting is in general not expensive, while buying is. However morgage is at this time very interesting here, because there are tax advantages. You can lower your taxes with the interest you have payed for the mortgage. Although debts are high here but many of them are low risk. The unemployment is low, and virtually all real unemployed households are renting houses.

The planned suburbs are here considered as `dull`, however that is not the main problem, transportation is. Public transport is poor, in many suburbs, they build first, and think of transportation later. Therefore you need 1-2cars, which gives more pressure on the already crowded highways. In the big cities public transportation is reasonable.

It's also hard to get a good quality rented apartment for a reasonable rent, say 750 dollars a month in somewhat larger cities. I am trying to get this kind of apartment, but the usual stuff that is available are those large flats in bad neighborhoods, the lower income social housing with the usual problems like crime and general social unsafety, together with student dorms.

Here some more images:

Tilburg - Reeshof
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/3599/vinex07fy5.jpg

Amersfoort -
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/5387/amersfoortvj0.jpg

Bergen op Zoom
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/9531/bergenopzoomij0.jpg

Zutphen
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/6154/zutphencb5.jpg

Apeldoorn
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/9933/apeldoornkr6.jpg

I remember passing through a lake development near Goes (Zeeland) and it was fine at street level, far from what you said (though it seemed to be for the upper class).
Apart from this I think that planned suburbs like these suit well Netherlands. It avoids messy housing developments to sprout here and there forming a chaotic rurban landscape (with the dutch density it would maybe cover the entire country). We have a lot of that stuff in France and the result is that public heavy infrastructure (sewage, bus lines...) is nearly non-existent. At least Dutch-styled suburbs imply more density, shorter commutes (by lenght), a better countryside preservation and they are just beauties from the air. :drool: :drool:

Very aesthetic and well-organized, I love it!

There are benefits for having such planned suburbs. For example, it puts a cap on excessive greed or 'showing off' your stuff to your neighbours for self-pride. Since your neighbour's houses are the same, you have no intention of showing off externally while keeping your creative personality inside your accommodation.

I been to Tilburg Reeshof last Summer. It's quite a nice suburb with that new station and plenty of parks for recreational space. Also, the quality of buildings including homes are quite high since it has to follow strict building standard for environmental purposes. For example, many Reeshof homes have attics with winding rooftop windows for ventilation. Most houses do not need artificial heating because of well thought out insulation system.

Despite is perception of remoteness, Reeshof has extensive bus network which arrives about every 20min, which is funded my the provincial government. Also, there are nearby fruit markets to purchase fresh fruits and vegetables. There is a strawberry farm not far from Reeshof.

Dutch suburbs/ architecture/ urban design and urbanism are better than everywhere else. they shoudl be the model for similar countries.

There are benefits for having such planned suburbs. For example, it puts a cap on excessive greed or 'showing off' your stuff to your neighbours for self-pride. Since your neighbour's houses are the same, you have no intention of showing off externally while keeping your creative personality inside your accommodation.That's the idea of the modernists, but we are living in a new post-modern age. Showing wealth could be a way of live for some people, also in these new suburbs. A remarkable development in these kinds of suburbs is the phenomenon of bay windows. If one starts to build one of these in front of his house, it doesn't take a long time before the rest of the street has got one also. A bay window is in this case an element which people can compare their own wealth with their neighbours.

what is this???

it looks like retired barge's that have been recycled and use as land :p
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.255155,4.733348&spn=0.019177,0.040169&t=k&z=15&om=1I don't really know. But i think these higher lands were here before the lake was formed. It is an area in where man digged off peat in the previous centuries, with the result the area dried out and started to sink. Later the gap filled up with water and a lake was the result. The previous exploitation axe is the only visible thing what is left in the lake (as islands).

What do these places look like from ground level? Would be cool to see some pictures from the ground instead of just aerial photos.

^^Your wish is my command ;) I've only got a few selfmade pictures of the suburbs Zuiderburen in my hometown Leeuwarden. In my opinion these 4 pictures give a very good summary of these new suburbs, but i can imagine some of my fellow Dutchmen don't agree with me on this one.

1. Most of the time every street has a different kind of architecture, but that results in streets with all the same houses.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/Nemo02/Leeuwarden/lwdzuid-34a.jpg

2. The street next to the previous picture. I don't really like this one.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/Nemo02/Leeuwarden/lwdzuid-33.jpg

3. The more expensive houses next to the lake. I think this could be a good place to live.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/Nemo02/Leeuwarden/lwdzuid-31.jpg

4. And a few lowrise apartment buildings, also next to the water.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/Nemo02/Leeuwarden/lwdzuid-35.jpg

Wow...a row-house with it's one boat pier right next to it. :)
Is the water clean enough for swimming? I mean, it would be nice to have a little swim for a morning wake up :D

Amersfoort
http://www.kattenbroek.info/images/kb032.jpg

IJburg Amsterdam
http://www.eikongraphia.com/wordpress/wp-content/IJburg%20Amsterdam%20Small%20(11).jpg

Old Style architecting
http://www.brandevoort.nl/images/content/3/Brandevoort-alg---succes.gif

http://www.destentor.nl/multimedia/archive/00729/dagpouwoog1_729683b.jpg

Ypenburg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8712/denhaagypenburg085he0.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6281/denhaagypenburg086zm0.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4338/denhaagypenburg094jg0.jpg

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8727/denhaagypenburg143oe2.jpg

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9360/denhaagypenburg156dh7.jpg

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7738/denhaagypenburg210it4.jpg

Almere
http://www.ecn.nl/uploads/RTEmagicC_Almere01.jpg.jpg

http://www.almere.nl/mmbase/images/268254/20080825stadsarchiefheimwee.jpg

Enschede
http://www.wereldomroep.nl/images/assets/13727029

Old Style architecting
http://www.essent.nl/content/Images/Overijssel_Enschede_roombeek_26-67971_tcm301-24673.jpg

http://www.buva.nl/images/referenties/Normaal/bouwwereld%20floriande%206.jpg

http://www.buva.nl/images/referenties/Normaal/bouwwereld%20floriande%201.jpg

http://ecorys.nl/ecru/ecru_5/vinex.jpg

http://www.tresoar.nl/educatie/woningwet/W3/Foto/03inbopierwoningenZuiderburen.jpg

Pictures from google and Dutch forums

@Rebasepoiss - I wouldn't try to go swimming in there ;)

Here are some pics of the Floriande. The biggest vinex district of Haarlemmermeer, located in my city Hoofddorp.

The Floriande is a new city district wich includes 12 islands. Each island has a different building style and each island has it's own lowrise complex. On the 13th island there's a big hospital (for Hoofddorp and suroundings).

There are also a few other small islands with expensive houses and there are normal neighborhoods in the Floriande. There's also a shopping center and a few schools, including an important high scool for Hoofddorp.

(Pics from Google and Dutch forum people)

Overview;
http://i35.tinypic.com/4zvmgx.jpg

Shopping center;
http://i38.tinypic.com/2iglqu1.jpg

The neighborhoods in the Floriande;
http://www.timpaan.nl/files/pictures/large/floriande_eiland3_02.jpg

http://www.vvkh-architecten.nl/Images2006/X-0205-F-01.jpg

http://www.reservasdecoches.com/imagenes/localidades/localidad/0924af8dfc00f126b21d5b0b26a62a02300px-Hoofddorp-Floriande.jpg

http://www.timpaan.nl/files/pictures/large/floriandeeiland101.jpg

http://www.directwonen.nl/koop/ajax/Housing/getFotoAvailable.ashx?Foto=4638659.JPG

http://www.directwonen.nl/koop/ajax/Housing/getFotoAvailable.ashx?Foto=4925992.JPG

http://www.hoekstraenvaneck.nl/img/cache/2352c1f7-2975-426a-9235-d69e4d1d4c8f-360x240.jpg

http://www.smitsbouwbedrijf.nl/includes/getpic.php?table=cincms_refs_images&id=64&gal=1

http://www.smitsbouwbedrijf.nl/includes/getpic.php?table=cincms_refs_images&id=62&gal=1

http://www.podiumarchitectuur.nl/email_smaak1005.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/2u8w65l.jpg

All 6.500 houses in this part of Hoofddorp are built :)

Neighborhoods in Alphen aan den Rijn

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/momo1435-2/IMG_0508.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/momo1435-2/IMG_0515.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/momo1435-2/IMG_0518.jpg

Kerk & Zanen

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/momo1435-2/IMG_0567.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/momo1435-2/IMG_0572.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/momo1435-2/IMG_0575.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/momo1435-2/IMG_0579.jpg

^Those houses on the third picture are really tacky imo. Old style houses look better when it looks like they're just one of a kind, when the rest of the street has the same houses it becomes boring. The same goes up for the houses on picture 1, though i'd like to live in a house like that later. ;)

Woow!

There are an amazing places to live, over all the houses on the canals :drool:

luv Holland ;)

saludos amigos!

Maby the biggest suburb of the Netherlands. Its now a city. This suburb of Amsterdam is establish in 1975. Before 1975 this area was part of the Zuiderzee (Southern sea). So the land and infrastructure of Almere is just 30 years old. The current population of Almere is 185.000. The Almere municipal want this to increase to 350.000 inhabitants in 2030. At the moment Almere has six railwaystations and there are plans to have a metro/tram-connection with Amsterdam.

http://www.satellietfoto.nl/beelden/foto546.jpg

I used to live in such a suburb (Zwolle-Stadshagen) until recently. Many people comment on these neighborhoods as dull, or "more of the same", though I doubt many of them actually know these neighborhoods. They are very diverse in architecture, much more variating than the 70's and 80's neighborhoods. I found it a nice place to live, but it's not really a place to live for people in their early 20's, since there's not much to do for them. Most families are young, and just started a family. They're typically 2-income households and often own 2 cars to commute to a nearby or further away city.

I live in one of those 80's neighbourhoods, they are truly all the same. Entire neighbourhoods of the same brick houses same roof tiles, similar broccoli street layout. :nuts::nuts: Glad they stopped doing that, those neighbourhoods are also very susceptible to deterioration.

Do you have the photos of Almere Town Centre? I really liked how new and organised it is.

Interesting! very estetic, very well designed!

netherlands looks nice!!

so green!

so beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im moving to Holland ;)

For those who are interested in pictures on streetlevel :)

2. Squares in The Hague (Leidschenveen)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Nemo01/vinex01.jpgOn my own website you can find some of my recent pictures of Leidschenveen: http://www.geoclopedie.nl/foto/Nederland/Foto-DenHaagLeidschenveen.htm

6. A different new way of reshaping the countryside north of ‘s Hertogenbosch, residential areas like castles in the open fields. (Haverleij)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Nemo01/vinex06.jpgAnd here's a topic with recent pictures of these postmodern castles: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=799228


It is in Dutch, but the pictures can speak for themselves :wink2:

^^

That's why at least 30% of housing in the suburbs is social development, usually for rent for about €500,- / €700,- a month. These houses are equal to the typical starters house; +/- 3 bedroom, 180m² living space and a 60m² garden.

Wow, 180m² for a suburban starter house, that's huge by UK standards. How come the houses are so much bigger over there?

180 square meter seems to be a bit exagerrated, I lived in a suburban starters house (Price: € 240.000 or $ 310,000 that had three floors; two of 45 m2 and one of about 30, so 120 m2 in living space, and a yard of about 50 m2.

^^ That's still pretty big for a first home by the standards here. Most people buying their first place will buy an apartment or terraced house which might be 50-80 sqm living area. Round here you would pay between £100,000 and £140,000 for a typical small terraced house or apartment depending on size and location.

In fact I think that the average size of all homes in the UK is only 90sqm, smaller than these Netherlands starter homes :ohno:

I don't think you can find many 100,000 - 140,000 Pound terraced houses in the Netherlands that aren't crappy houses from the 50's. Most cheaper houses in the larger cities are either social housing or small apartments. You can get cheap houses in the countryside though. But the question is if you want to live there, further from jobs and services.

are they detached houses suburbs in the Netherlands or all the country is filling with these kind of suburbs?

Detached homes are unaffordable for most Dutchmen. Most suburban homes are rowhouses or terraced houses or whatever you want to call them.

really well i think the real estate market isnt much different with the one in Belgium and yeah in Flanders there are a lot of these kind of urbanisation with mid-rise apartments and so for...but also some important "us style" suburbs around cities as Gent, Antwerp and Brussels so ...does this exist in ur country ?

We don't have US style suburbs on large scales. Urbanizations like that are usually no more than one or two streets in a neighborhood. Typical detached homes are usually in the € 500,000+ range.

For instance, this US style house goes for € 938,000 in Zwolle, Overijssel province.
http://images.funda.nl/valentinamedia/007/636/389_groot.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/5429064.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/8714724.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/17523011.jpg

nice interesting pics! :)

For instance, this US style house goes for € 938,000 in Zwolle, Overijssel province.
A rather unfortunate example to say the least.
The building method alone makes it incomparable to a house in the US.

Anyways, €200k gets you pretty far in large parts of the country. Not to mention in areas like east Groningen, north Friesland and Zeeuws-Vlaanderen.

€200k for this in Hengelo, Overijssel for example.
http://images.funda.nl/valentinamedia/006/570/265_groot.jpg#Exterieur

Near Roermond, Limburg.
http://images.funda.nl/valentinamedia/004/860/788_groot.jpg

In Assen, Drenthe.
http://images.funda.nl/valentinamedia/005/998/673_groot.jpg

€190k in Raamsdonkveer, Noord-Brabant.
http://images.funda.nl/valentinamedia/007/161/838_groot.jpg#geen

This are pictures from a big project in Amsterdam named IJburg, the houses are build on selfmade islands.

http://www.eikongraphia.com/wordpress/wp-content/IJburg%20Amsterdam%20Small%20(11).jpg

http://www.amsterdam.pvda.nl/upload/ijburg(1).jpg

http://www.vinkbouw.nl/images/projecten/Blok35_IJburg_01.jpg

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9505/pieterholmstraatmediumbl0.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/140/318799352_2c9f8d50b4.jpg?v=0

for more information: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=589426

I used to live in my past days in those 70's build out and they all are the same. The same with their burandas, balcony, street dividations and all.

From The Runner

Blok 56
http://i29.tinypic.com/wuge2p.jpg

Het Havenkwartier
http://i30.tinypic.com/ftq1ib.jpg

De bomen groeien goed op het Steigereiland
http://i32.tinypic.com/106kmkz.jpg

^^

Solid 1
http://i27.tinypic.com/2w552x2.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/30vj5td.jpg

Last pictures didn´t work, so i have replaced the old pictures for some new ones.

thats great .

Wateringse veld, The hague

http://www.gjvandenbeuken.nl/images/DenHaag-WateringseVeld1585.jpg

Reeshof (koolhoven), tilburg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/11833424.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/2201274.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/11833055.jpg

Wow Wateringse veld looks pretty depressing. Just like a big prison.

Dutch suburbs/ architecture/ urban design and urbanism are better than everywhere else. they shoudl be the model for similar countries.

Architecturally possible. But conceptually it's all wrong. In a small dense country you need more compactness. The Dutch landscape gets uglier all the time.

i have mixed feelings regarding this!

developers do so much effort for birds eyes, and none for human eyes.

they should try to find a middle point.

otherwise its the same architecture of Germany in the 30s, and it's been 80 years since then. anyways it's much better than 90% of new neighbourhoods around the world. at least there's some contact with nature and a very efficient space disposition.

Brandevoort, Helmond

http://www.ambulare.nl/foto_brandevoort_2.JPG

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/1872442.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/9327611.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/15010528.jpg

train station
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/15473241.jpg

Wow Wateringse veld looks pretty depressing. Just like a big prison.You are actually not far from the truth. Wateringse Veld is a new suburb of The Hague (it is even still under construction), but it turns out to be a huge failure. A lot of people already want to move out of there because of rising problems with the youth-gangs.

some pictures of Wateringse veld.

http://www.stroom.nl/gfx/uploads/web%20WATERIN2.jpg

http://www.dagjeweg.nl/img/dagjeweg/wateringse-veld-aanbouw-bomenmuseum-5093.jpg

http://nieuwbouw.bouwfonds.nl/Prop-Resources/3106/a83120cd-56b1-4d04-bb57-93a8dcbe8700/IMG_0147.jpg

http://www.hansklopfoto.nl/MakelaarVideo/luchtfoto_images/luchtfotos/040701-098_Wateringse_Veld.jpg

For more pictures of Wateringse Veld: http://foto.denhaag.org/PHP/pagina.php?link=wijk.php?80&header=Wateringseveld

Those aerial views are awesome. Seems to be well urban planned.

I have been to Wateringse Veld once and the area where I was looked fine and nothing like a prison. I wouldn't want to live there myself (at least, not in my current phase of life) but I could see why families would move there. It seemed quite liveable to me with nice family housing (a lot of them semi-attached) and a lot of water.

The suburbs shown here with strong geometric forms and row houses are the norm. But suburbs with detached houses do exist. There are two kinds:

1. Those in more remote areas of the country where popularion density is lower, housing prices are lower, and where there is less pressure on the use of land.

2. Older suburbs, started around 100 years ago when increased mobility made it possible to live outside of the city for the rich.

Some examples:

(1) The remote kind:

Sneek, Friesland, in the North of the country:
http://img2.pict.com/66/f7/28/1718251/0/800/afbeelding22.png

Lemmer, also Friesland:
http://img2.pict.com/50/5d/3f/1718253/0/800/afbeelding23.png

Heerenveen, Friesland:
http://img2.pict.com/f2/43/82/1718254/0/afbeelding24.png


(2) The old kind:

Laren:
http://img2.pict.com/d0/25/cb/1718256/0/800/afbeelding25.png

Bloemendaal:
http://img2.pict.com/85/72/23/1718261/0/afbeelding26.png

Bloemendaal (Bing Maps Aerial):
http://img2.pict.com/b7/e7/49/1718263/0/afbeelding27.png

Wassenaar (Bing Maps Aerial):
http://img2.pict.com/77/49/bf/1718264/0/800/afbeelding28.png

The old ones are pretty expensive.

I remember passing through a lake development near Goes (Zeeland) and it was fine at street level, far from what you said (though it seemed to be for the upper class).
Apart from this I think that planned suburbs like these suit well Netherlands. It avoids messy housing developments to sprout here and there forming a chaotic rurban landscape (with the dutch density it would maybe cover the entire country). We have a lot of that stuff in France and the result is that public heavy infrastructure (sewage, bus lines...) is nearly non-existent. At least Dutch-styled suburbs imply more density, shorter commutes (by lenght), a better countryside preservation and they are just beauties from the air. :drool: :drool:


sums it up really.

I'm a huge fan of these dutch suburbs. They should be a template for large scale urban design everywhere.

Countries like France have problems with their suburban developments (crime, decay..etc) but that's mostly a result of poor planning and maintenance, not density itself.

Cities everywhere are running out of space and resources. They need ambitious, well planed, high density projects that cover the entire urban space, not a patchwork of independent apartment blocks.

please keep this thread going.

Most of these suburbs are a result of the VINEX policy (Vinex is an abbreviation, which means as much as the Fourth Report on Spatial Planning Extra). The state government used to write reports on how the country should develop. This VINEX has been the last one with a strong influence.

It sets out basic principles of how cities should expand, how many homes are needed, and in some cases where cities should expand. Its emphasis is on building close to the cities, in order to strengthen existing services. It also favours using existing infrastructure and building new public transit. But in many cases this has not been done very succesfully.

I wonder what residential densities are in other countries. The VINEX areas are usually 30-35 dwellings per hectare (including all services, public space, infrastructure, etc.).

But there is actually a lot of diversity in this. This interesting map shows densities in six different VINEX areas. It's a report from www.ruimtemonitor.nl. More about VINEX here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinex-location

http://img2.pict.com/74/74/5a/1723750/0/afbeelding6.png

For anyone interested, here's some history about the planning policies that are responsible for these suburbs. In my previous post I explained VINEX. Here's what came before that:

1960: First Report on Spatial Planning
The concept of the Randstad as an urban ring around a green heart was introduced. The cities were stimulated to grow outward on the edges of the cities, but building in the green heart was not allowed. Also the cities were not supposed to become too big or grow together. So between the cities in the Randstad Ring there were green buffer zones. These still exist, like between Amsterdam and Haarlem, or between The Hague and Leiden, or between Delft and Rotterdam, between Naarden and Amsterdam.

1966: Second Report on Spatial Planning
The population grew so rapidly that the cities could not cope with this growth. Quickly increasing prosperity meant people wanted more, could afford more, and were more mobile. There was pressure to build outside of the city. In this report the concept of "bundled deconcentration" was introduced. It channeled suburbanization in a limited number of "growth centers". These places were seperated from their mother cities, but well connected by roads and rail. Examples of these growth centers are Purmerend, Spijkenisse, Zoetermeer, Lelystad. They have a lot of things in common with Ebenezer Howard's 'Garden City', except that these growth centers were not designed to be self-sufficient.
This report was highly modernist and filled with population projections that required an incredible amount of infrastructure (20M inh in 2000). These were all drawn in maps, where cities were reduced to abstract squares. The use of cars was seen as a good thing.

1973-1983: Third Report on Spatial Planning
This report was more of a series of reports. Soon after the second report, it became clear that the population projections were on the high side. So the need for all this deconcentration and infrastructure was less than set out in the second report. It also soon became clear that deconcentration would lead to traffic levels that would be hard to support by infrastructure. The conflict between cars and quality of life in the city was addressed.
However, a strong flow of people out of the city was already on its way. The third report added a couple of extra growth centers, but was more strict about limiting rural growth.
Th biggest thing was that it also started to bring the focus back to the city. The middle class was moving out of the cities, quickly eroding the base for services. So this third report also added instruments for urban renewal and inner city building.

1988: The Fourth Report on Spatial Planning
The Fourth report focuses on the strength of the diversity of the Dutch urban landscape as a major engine for growth. A system of cities that complement each other, well connected, with a green heart in the middle. Two other engines for economic growth were the Port of Rotterdam and Amsterdam airport Schiphol. These were called mainports. Investments in infrastructure were concentrated around these mainports.

1994: Fourth Report Extra (VINEX)
The day before the fourth report was supposed to be confirmed by the parliament, the government fell. The new government still adopted the report, but added the VINEX part to it. This set out guidelines for the development of residential districts close to the city, in relatively high densities, strengthening the population base and the services of the mother city. Connected by public transport, etc.

2001: Fifth Report on Spatial Planning
This report was never adopted by the parliament, because the government fell before it was discussed in the parliament. It did have some influence though. Most concrete point in this report was the requirement of provinces to make regional plans (which they already did), and in these plans to draw a red line around cities, towns and villages, which would serve as a growth boundary. No development would be allowed outside this red line. There were also green lines to be drawn around rural/natural areas, in which new development would be forbidden.
Even though this policy never became official, some provinces have adopted these red and green lines in their regional plan. Local plans have to be consistent with regional plans, so it does have a bit of impact.

2004: Report on Space
In 2004 the national government broke the tradition of setting guidelines for development. It did keep the requirement for provinces to make regional plans, but is no longer directive. The adagium is: "centralized if it has to be, localised when possible". Essentially this has decentralized the issue of planning. Funny thing is that provinces seem to be pretty conservative (meaning conserving green space, favouring inner city development). There are a bunch of local governments who have been proposing large scale malls outside of central cities. Generally these are either not compliant with the regional plan and therefore rejected, or they are rejected in local referenda by the people of these cities. There may be a handful of exceptions to this.

OK. Hope anyone finds this interesting enough to read.

Too much talking (sorry), here are some more pics:

Kattenbroek in Amsersfoort:
http://img2.pict.com/ab/21/44/1724044/0/afbeelding1.png

Hoogland in Amersfoort:
http://img2.pict.com/ed/be/39/1724046/0/afbeelding2.png

Pijnacker near The Hague:
http://img2.pict.com/d4/f0/9e/1724047/0/afbeelding3.png

Bergschenhoek near Rotterdam:
http://img2.pict.com/68/29/e2/1724048/0/afbeelding4.png

http://www.vebo.nl/producten/images/vathorst.jpg



http://lh6.ggpht.com/_2KfEMb9E_-0/Soh3Xetct0I/AAAAAAAAC2k/tixZdg3r7Os/s800/P1010774.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_2KfEMb9E_-0/Soh3ZHdnCFI/AAAAAAAAC2s/7nE4ynG1dzI/s800/P1010776.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_2KfEMb9E_-0/Soh3aBpkZKI/AAAAAAAAC2w/Q_9WAQnWQzk/s800/P1010778.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_2KfEMb9E_-0/Soh3bKmiL6I/AAAAAAAAC20/sZNeXy9dlzs/s800/P1010779.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_2KfEMb9E_-0/Soh3dOrZTFI/AAAAAAAAC28/91NaIqkzdHM/s800/P1010781.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_2KfEMb9E_-0/Soh3eSyV72I/AAAAAAAAC3A/iFi9slagqE4/s800/P1010782.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_2KfEMb9E_-0/Soh3flIGsQI/AAAAAAAAC3E/tzzg20gHKSU/s800/P1010783.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_2KfEMb9E_-0/Soh3giJhAFI/AAAAAAAAC3I/dSZNsesXlcc/s800/P1010784.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_2KfEMb9E_-0/Soh3iPDItyI/AAAAAAAAC3M/Tawh6plMUcs/s800/P1010785.JPG

I am surprised by the scale of these developments.

They seem to be quite new so there must be a very strong demand for housing space.
In Germany the sizes and numbers of newly built residential areas aren't even remotely comparable to that. Is the situation in the Netherlands really that much different from Germany?

why does it look so messy, is it still under construction? or the gardening business in the Netherlands doesn't exist?

Vathorst is still under construction.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/231672.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/5725900.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/5725993.jpg

Sorry for the big size of the pictures!

I am surprised by the scale of these developments.

They seem to be quite new so there must be a very strong demand for housing space.
In Germany the sizes and numbers of newly built residential areas aren't even remotely comparable to that. Is the situation in the Netherlands really that much different from Germany?

I think there are two main differences:

1. Demographic differences: the population of NL is growing faster than in DE, and will continue to grow until 2040 to 17,5M (now 16,5M), while the German population will start to shrink soon. More important is the regional distribution of this growth. Peripheral regions will shrink, and central cities will grow. The Randstad region (where most of these projects are) will grow with about 1,25M by 2025 (all projections by CBS, Central Bureau of Statistics, www.cbs.nl).

2. Reulation and policy: In densely populated areas in NL land use very regulated. It is virtually impossible to buy some land and build your own house. New housing is clustered, therefore developments tend to be big and done by professional developers. It results in these large developments and a rather unbalanced housing market where there is a strong demand for housing of good quality (at least before the current crisis).

See this map of projected population growth by 2025 (red is growing, blue is shrinking):
http://img2.pict.com/3e/8d/88/1736295/0/afbeelding9.png

In France those pictures wouldn't be referred to as photos of suburbs but photos of small cities' downtowns.
Most of those modern red-brick houses are beautiful contrary to what you can see in France,
where unfortunately new houses built in suburbs have often absolutely no style.






http://images02.olx.fr/ui/1/63/15/f_1095815_1.jpg

http://images04.olx.fr/ui/1/41/25/42553625_1.jpg

Typical new French single-family detached houses.


No doubt I prefer seeing this :

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/231672.jpg

why does it look so messy, is it still under construction? or the gardening business in the Netherlands doesn't exist?

That obviously still has to be fixed. The Netherlands is one of the countries where the public space is the most tidy.

Typical new French single-family detached houses.

Detached homes are unaffordable for most of the people in the Netherlands, especially in the Randstad and around the larger cities. We're talking about € 500,000 + homes there. Some rural areas like northeastern Netherlands have more affordable housing.

Many Dutchmen settled in the German and Belgian border regions, houses tend to be at least 100,000 euros cheaper than in the Netherlands, or people just buy bigger homes there. Those people still commute into the Netherlands, especially around larger cities which are located near the border (Arnhem, Nijmegen, Enschede, Groningen, Zwolle, Eindhoven, Tilburg, Breda, Maastricht etc.) depending on commuting time.

ChrisZwolle thanks for the informations. I didn't know detached houses in the netherlands were so expensive.
I have another question.. Why are dutch houses often so narrow ? I know that in the past a tax was based on the length of the street façade. but today this tax doesn't exist anymore so.. Why narrow houses are still being built ?

In order of the Dutch government there are 36 official Vinex-locations for massive new housing development.

The 10 largest locations by population when finnished

1) Utrecht Leidsche Rijn 80.000 (Population)
2) Amsterdam IJburg 45.000
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/Amsterdam_IJburg_20041105.jpg/800px-Amsterdam_IJburg_20041105.jpg
3) Zwolle Stadshagen 40.000
4) Amersfoort Vathorst 30.000
5) The Hague Ypenburg 30.000
6) The Hague Leidschenvn. 20.000
7) Hoofddorp Floriande 18.000
http://www.eiland2.nl/images/luchtfoto_eiland_2_Cavok.jpg
http://www.bgsv.nl/slides/luchtfoto.jpg
8) Helmond Brandevoort 17.000
9) Arnhem Schuytgraaf 15.000
10) The Hague Wateringse Veld 12.000
10) Eindhoven Meerhoven 12.000

Almere? One of the youngest and fastgrowing cities in the Netherlands establish in 1976. Todays population 186.000, but they want to increase to 350.000. But can't find any massive housing developments of Almere?

here i'll post something, this map shows the Amsterdam vinex location ijburg, as well a dreamvision of almere. i think in this map at least 60-000 new houses are projected. also the northern connection is still visionary.

http://www.zeeburgnieuws.nl/plannen/ijburg/images/regiokaart_detail2.jpg

Map showing VINEX and other new developments in the The Hague Area:

http://www.wateringseveld.nl/het_plan/vinex.jpg

I have always admired Dutch urban planning, and I would really like to see something like it in my country of origin (Czecho-Slovakia), where people fill up farmland with disproportional houses on huge gardens (and often live in those for a few years without good access roads and nearby facilities). The Dutch planning has maintained its quality for many years and I can not say anything negative about its current developments.

What I don't see improving is the actual architecture of those houses. I live in a house from the beginning of the 80's in Eindhoven, and in this development, there is minimal use of flat roofs, minimal use of material and color other than red brick. But now, they are building Meerhoven, and that does not fit into my impression of livable housing. You see those black brick houses with extravagantly shaped copper or blue-green wood parts and in the next row, there are those strange patio houses with outstanding facades. My overal impression of Meerhoven is that of a cold, chaotic place. Maybe I'm just too conservative. Do you think that Meerhoven (along with other comparable developments) is something that Dutch families are going to adore?

I don't see Carnisselande/Portland on the top 10 list. There have been build 10.000 houses! I suppose, that must be over 15.000 people.

I have always admired Dutch urban planning, and I would really like to see something like it in my country of origin (Czecho-Slovakia), where people fill up farmland with disproportional houses on huge gardens (and often live in those for a few years without good access roads and nearby facilities). The Dutch planning has maintained its quality for many years and I can not say anything negative about its current developments.

The lack of vision from the federal government, the lack of urban planners at the federal government and spreading everything throughout the whole country is something considered negative about Dutch urban planning. Local city councils have a lot of power on planning, but the majority of the money has to come from a higher government. If more than 1 city council has to be involved with a plan, than it gets very complicated. Making a 2 km infrastructure tunnel at the Zuidas (because this area can be made a really good highly urban area) is worth far more than a 7 km long tunnel in the 'Groene Hart' (which is not green, but farmlands). There are still local city councils in rural areas that are building a lot of houses for average people, while we are projecting that they are going to shrink in number of people and that the population is getting older there (it happens everywhere in europe, in the Netherlands we are late).

Amsterdam Metropolitan Area is purely a local initiative with local city councils working together. Great that they are working together, there are a lot of opportunities in this area and the economical power is growing. But there is no federal vision about it, no involvement of the federal government with own ideas, etc.

^^

@ Wuppeltje:

Even though there is a lack of vision from higher level government (which is a policy, not just a lack of vision), and planning is a very localized and often messy affair with complex democratic processes, I would say that the Dutch method of planning is still quite controlled compared to other countries:

1. All rural areas have to have a 'bestemmingsplan' (land use plan, or zoning plan);
2. All provinces or regional governmetns must have a streekplan (regional plan);
3. All developments have to fit into the zoning plan;
4. Each zoning plan has to be consistent with the regional plan;
5. All decisions about consistency with plans can be taken to court on a high level.

In most countries none of these 'checks and balances' exist, making it easy to just build anywhere, compromising the quality of both the countryside and the urban areas.

Most of the suburbs now under construction however are still a result of a time where the state government had a vision (VINEX). If these developments are over, it will be interesting to see where new development turns to. It seems that more 'greenfield development' is unlikely, partly because of the green and left nature of most local governments. So development may be taken back into the city, take part on a smaller scale, and putting pressure on the transformation of old industrial and office parks.

let's correct this a little bit..

In order of the Dutch government there are 36 official Vinex-locations for massive new housing development.

The 10 largest locations by population when finnished

1) Utrecht Leidsche Rijn 80.000 (Population)
2) Amsterdam IJburg 45.000
3) Zwolle Stadshagen 40.000
4) Amersfoort Vathorst 30.000
5) The Hague Ypenburg 30.000
6) Nijmegen Waalsprong 25.000
7) The Hague Leidschenvn. 20.000
8) Hoofddorp Floriande 18.000
9) Helmond Brandevoort 17.000
10) Arnhem Schuytgraaf 15.000

Hi everyone,

It's really interesting to see what people outside the Netherlands think of our suburbs. Here in the Netherlands, some of the 'burbs have gotten a pretty bad reputation in recent years (although I expect that most of the criticism comes from people that don't actually live in them).

However, the negative publicity, combined with the drop in the housing market, has led to a big rise in the number of houses for sale in the suburbs. A typical example is The Hague Ypenburg, a nearly 10 year old suburb, where at one point a few months ago over 130 houses were for sale (that's a lot for the size of the area). Most houses were put up for sale due to people moving on to newer, brighter parts of the area, or divorce. In addition, you already have a lot of youths hanging around in this nearly-new area, which creates an unsafe impression.

Personally, I'm happy to remain a city-dweller for the foreseeable future. But then again, you have to keep in mind that a lot of people are very happy to live in a VINEX-suburb.

Brgds.
Ralph

Some pictures of Nieuw Wolfslaar in Breda, Noord-Brabant.

01.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/8000/02wo8.jpg

02.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/1368/03ua9.jpg

03.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/7848/04iw2.jpg

04.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/672/05bv9.jpg

05.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/4729/06rz4.jpg

06.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/2074/07rk2.jpg

07.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/731/08ji1.jpg

08.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/2102/09qr0.jpg

09.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/9465/10wz8.jpg

10.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/8418/11hv0.jpg

11.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/1509/12xy1.jpg

12.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/7456/13yv7.jpg

13.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/8707/14rp6.jpg

14.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/6070/15dj5.jpg

15.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/1217/16db5.jpg

16.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/363/17hx3.jpg

17.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/1145/27kx8.jpg

18.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/7302/18ed5.jpg

19.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5302/19xu3.jpg

20.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/4459/20nc7.jpg

21.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/2105/21pu2.jpg

22.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/831/22xo4.jpg

23.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/2065/23ro8.jpg

24.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/9084/24zr1.jpg

25.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/9695/25ur0.jpg

26.
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/2056/26uk5.jpg

let's correct this a little bit...again

In order of the Dutch government there are 36 official Vinex-locations for massive new housing development.

The 10 largest locations by population when finnished

1) Utrecht Leidsche Rijn 80.000
2) Amsterdam IJburg 45.000
3) Zwolle Stadshagen 40.000
4) Amersfoort Vathorst 30.000
5) The Hague Ypenburg 30.000
6) Rotterdam Carnisselande/Portland 30.000
7) Nijmegen Waalsprong 25.000
8) The Hague Leidschenvn. 20.000
9) Hoofddorp Floriande 18.000
10) Helmond Brandevoort 17.000
11) Arnhem Schuytgraaf 15.000
12) The Hague Wateringse Veld 12.000
13) Eindhoven Meerhoven 12.000

let's correct this a little bit...again

You can ad Reeshof, Tilburg in the top 5 list with currently 45.000 inhabitants, still growing to 50.000 in when finished.

^^
You can do it yourselve if you like?

tried and failled..... I'm not that good with computers, and its mutual.

These caged rocks (http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/4729/06rz4.jpg) is also something recent you see everywhere.

bajanssen. Do you like it like this?


The 14 largest locations by population when finnished

Utrecht Leidsche Rijn 80.000
Tilburg Reeshof 50.000
Amsterdam IJburg 45.000
Zwolle Stadshagen 40.000
Amersfoort Vathorst 30.000
The Hague Ypenburg 30.000
Rotterdam Carnisselande/Portland 30.000
Nijmegen Waalsprong 25.000
The Hague Leidschenvn. 20.000 Hoofddorp Floriande 18.000
Helmond Brandevoort 17.000
Arnhem Schuytgraaf 15.000
The Hague Wateringse Veld 12.000
Eindhoven Meerhoven 12.000

Thank you. Don't know why I was unable to do that.....

In that case: let me be the one to fix that nagging spelling mistake...

Originally Posted by Mr_Dru
The 14 largest locations by population when finished

Utrecht Leidsche Rijn 80.000
Tilburg Reeshof 50.000
Amsterdam IJburg 45.000
Zwolle Stadshagen 40.000
Amersfoort Vathorst 30.000
The Hague Ypenburg 30.000
Rotterdam Carnisselande/Portland 30.000
Nijmegen Waalsprong 25.000
The Hague Leidschenvn. 20.000
Hoofddorp Floriande 18.000
Helmond Brandevoort 17.000
Arnhem Schuytgraaf 15.000
The Hague Wateringse Veld 12.000
Eindhoven Meerhoven 12.000

it's crazy that Almere is at a population of 185.000 in just 30 years
it's bigger then Breda and that is a city that excists longer
now you see how holland is growing in population

I think those suburbs are of very good quality though larger yards would be nice.

I always despised the cul-de-sac model used in the US for subdivisions and liked the "woonerf" concept better, as it is basically used for the same purpose(kids can play outside) but does not turn a neighborhood into a insular little bubble. I wish there was more effort to import that design here by housing developers.

Nice thread.

The woonerf concept has been abandoned since the 80's.

http://i34.tinypic.com/2rwt4lw.jpg

http://www.cooltownstudios.com/images/nl-amsterdam-borneosporenburg.jpg

http://www.noformat.com/clients/e2pbs/images/press/design/Borneo_Sporenburg.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/5609532.jpg

http://www.architectenwerk.nl/architectenpraktijk02/images/python1.jpg

http://jamarchitecten.nl/document/villa-vollebregt/image/large/1.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/ajtsi1.jpg

http://web.at5.nl/nieuwbouwprijs/files/2008/09/lisdodde.jpg

this might also be interisting here. Vision for 'Almere IJland' litterly almere island designed by West8 . Visions for new suburbs in the water at the westside of Almere wich make an new connection to amsterdam even more urgent and logical.
http://www.west8.nl/projects/landscape/ijland__almere_buitendijks/

'Almere Island' wouldn't be a correct translation, because the Dutch word for island is 'eiland', not 'IJland'. The pronunciation is the same however, which makes the spoken word 'IJland' ambiguous.

'IJland' does however refer to the part of the lake that forms the bay of Amsterdam (roughly the body of water between the centre of Amsterdam and Almere). That part is called 'het IJ'. The word 'IJ' is related to the french word 'eau', both simply meaning water.

This summer I spent some days at "Almere Buiten". I have to look for the pictures I took to post here, but it was really pleasent place. Besides that, even being so far from Amsterdam, they still got channels and are ciclying friendly

Cycling is really not limited to Amsterdam. Of course, Amsterdam is known for it because it's a tourist city, however, cycling is the same in most Dutch cities.

^^ yeah, that is really cool, and I guess you understand that for a tourist, its quite surprising to see that things for what that city is famous for are not limited to the touristic areas, but actually spread all over the country.

The urban planning is very impressive. Nice pics.

^^ yeah, that is really cool, and I guess you understand that for a tourist, its quite surprising to see that things for what that city is famous for are not limited to the touristic areas, but actually spread all over the country.

Actually: Amsterdam is not the bicycle-capital of Holland. The city of Groningen is, according to some figures! I live in amsterdam, but came from the south of the country and for me amsterdam is sometimes a nightmare to cycle. There are much better towns to cycle throughout the country.

^^ That is true. I live in Amsterdam as well, but have lived in other places in The Netherlands before. When I moved to Amsterdam I was very unimpressed by the bike infrastructure. I'm used to it now though.

Other cities I've lived in like Sneek, Groningen and Enschede have better bicycle infrastructure than Amsterdam.

And are about 10 to 100 times less important...

^^ That is true. I live in Amsterdam as well, but have lived in other places in The Netherlands before. When I moved to Amsterdam I was very unimpressed by the bike infrastructure. I'm used to it now though.

Other cities I've lived in like Sneek, Groningen and Enschede have better bicycle infrastructure than Amsterdam.

There is obviously more space in those towns. Anybody I know in Amsterdam mainly uses the bike. The only time I used public transport was to go to football games in the Arena. But in the summer I even used to cycle there from the center. I miss biking in Amsterdam. There is one rule there are no rules:lol:.

I was not Amsterdam bashing here.

I was just pointing out that there are other cities in The Netherlands with higher bicycle use (share in all trips) and better bicycle infrastructure. I did not imply anything with that. I just wanted to share this with people who are reading this forum: cycling is not just an Amsterdam thing; it is even more popular and better developed in places outside of Amsterdam. If you are talking about total “cycling volume” though, Amsterdam is definitely number 1.

The state of maintenance of the bike infrastructure in Amsterdam has more to do with local government finances and priorities, than with space, I think.

But maybe we should go back to the topic: suburbs in The Netherlands. How about cycling in the suburbs:

This is a nice vid with some guy cycling through a residential neighborhood with his kids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjWKLozSa5c

And an image from Houten Vinex:
http://www.fietsberaad.nl/library/repository/nieuws/houtenvinex.jpg

I did not see it as bashing. If you travel to big cities in the world you just realize how great it is to be cycling in a big city.

What was the first of this types of planned towns that was built in the Netherlands. I know one town in North Holland which is a suburb of Den Helder (Juliana dorp/village that is about 35 years old (the new part that is) and that was completely designed like the above towns. It has about 20k inhabitants.

Different hoods.

http://home.hetnet.nl/~pjs29/fotonieuws/sept06/luchtfoto-middelzand.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~pjs29/fotonieuws/sept06/luchtfoto-vogelzand.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~pjs29/fotonieuws/sept06/luchtfoto-kruiszwin.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~pjs29/fotonieuws/sept06/luchtfoto-doorzwin.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~pjs29/fotonieuws/sept06/luchtfoto-wierbalg.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~pjs29/fotonieuws/sept06/luchtfoto-malzwin.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~pjs29/fotonieuws/sept06/luchtfoto-boterzwin.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~pjs29/fotonieuws/sept06/luchtfoto-zwanenbalg.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~pjs29/fotonieuws/sept06/luchtfoto-noorderhaven.jpg

Interesting thread, though I don't like these neighbourhoods. I'm living in a suburb from the 1970's and as soon I can afford it I will move to an older and more vibrant neighbourhood.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28575407.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28575435.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28575430.jpg

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http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28575312.jpg

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http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28576026.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28576024.jpg

:cheers:

Nice pics.

Many people say VINEX-suburbs are all the same, though I think there's more variation in VINEX-suburbs than the typical 1980's neighborhoods.

cool brick buildings !

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28632894.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28632890.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28632882.jpg

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http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28632624.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28632391.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28632416.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28632304.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28632313.jpg

Nice. The last ones are not my taste, but these blocks look pretty good. :)

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28576044.jpg

what is the building? nice and cool...ha

Who lives in these suburbs? Ethnic Dutch people? As I understand NL is a very segregated country, where do the foreigners live then?

@Emzeti: This building is called a house;)


Trainstation
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28644363.jpg

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http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28644342.jpg

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http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28644327.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28643936.jpg

The View.
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28643932.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28675689.jpg


http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28643912.jpg

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http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28643891.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28644349.jpg

Who lives in these suburbs? Ethnic Dutch people? As I understand NL is a very segregated country, where do the foreigners live then?

I don't think it is very segregated here. The portion of foreigners in a neighbourhood often depends on the size and age of the houses, and on the fact whether the houses are for sale, for rent or as social housing.

I've seen a neighbourhood in Eindhoven which is almost entirely home to foreigners because the houses are small and there is mainly social housing. In such neighbourhoods you will not find many ethnic Dutch people even though they may be initially built for Dutch people (like Bijlmermeer in Amsterdam). But in the most neighbourhoods I would say that the nationalities are quite mixed, my neighbourhood is not 100% Dutch either (I am 0% Dutch myself :lol:)

Who lives in these suburbs? Ethnic Dutch people? As I understand NL is a very segregated country, where do the foreigners live then?
No not at all! What gave you that idea?

Strange comment...

Etnic dutch people:

http://www.signatuurwonen.nl/images/fotos/21.jpg

foreigners:

http://www.kei-centrum.nl/websites/kei/gfx/projecten/woenselzuid_kei3.JPG

@''Henk''uitBreda
That's not true...Dutch people also live in the "poor" suburbs...But it is kwown that dutch people are the only inhabitants of the richer, nicer suburbs...But that is free market isn't it? The immigrants only need to go school and study harder so they can afford to live in the nicer suburbs...It is not our (dutch) fault that they stay poorer.

@ "Henk"uitBreda:

Those images are a little too stereotypical.

In 2005 the % of "allochtonen" (people who were born outside of The Netherlands or have a parent who was born outside The Netherlands) of non-Western origin in the cities of Amsterdam and Rotterdam was about 34%. In Almere (a suburb of Amsterdam) for example this number was 24%.

In 2025 it is expected the number in Amsterdam will drop to around 31%, and rise in Almere to around 28%.

In the most recent years, the migration to Almere of Surinamese people was about the same volume as ethnic Dutch people (absolute numbers).

These numbers indicate that "allochtonen" are also suburbanizing. Homes in the suburbs are generally more affordable, schools are better, more space, etc.

Source: http://www.ruimtemonitor.nl/kennisportaal/default.aspx?pid=34&id=3802&themeId=323

edit

No not at all! What gave you that idea?

Strange comment...
A friend of mine lived in NL (au pair, living with an ethnic Dutxh family) for a year, he told me those things. I guess he didn't leave his white suburb much.

A friend of mine lived in NL (au pair, living with an ethnic Dutxh family) for a year, he told me those things. I guess he didn't leave his white suburb much.
Where did he live? Maybe that will offer some explanaition.

Where did he live? Maybe that will offer some explanaition.
Ledche Rijn (sp?) in Utrecht, almost only ethnic Dutch people there according to him.

Ledche Rijn (sp?) in Utrecht, almost only ethnic Dutch people there according to him.
Yeah could be, that's a very new suburb (and one of the largest in the NL).
Don't be surprised if it's 25%-30% minority in 10 years though (like Almere now).

Good point.

- deleted -
(stupid forum doesn't take me to the most recent post when I click a thread, so I reply wrongly..)

Google updated Streetview for The Netherlands. Now large parts of The Netherlands are covered, so you can check out the suburbs and the cities for yourself.

Go to maps.google.nl and drag the orange guy to wherever you want.

For instance: Weird houses in Barendrecht, suburb of Rotterdam:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.847033,4.492829&spn=0,359.981546&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.84695,4.492772&panoid=UPvTFw6Q1EnNraHhG3LLJg&cbp=12,51.06,,0,-4.63

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so great....................

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This is so fucking nice!!!!:cheers::banana:

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Does someone know if this are newer developments or older but well preserved and restored buildings?

Does someone know if this are newer developments or older but well preserved and restored buildings?These are brand new, in fact this whole buiilt up area is new.


@Muyangguniang: I agree, but please don't quote all these pictures for a single line comment.

^^^ Beautiful design we need more old Dutch architecture in new suburbs in Holland.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/29034601.jpg

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Panootje ---->>>>
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http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/juanelremero_album/PB200154.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/juanelremero_album/PB200131.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/juanelremero_album/PB200113.jpg

Some images of what Leidsche Rijn looks like from ground level on a rainy day.
It is still far from finished and in many places it looks like a huge construction site.
Soem parts are neo-traditional styled houses and other modern flats along broad avenues and esplanades.

Those brand new old style developments are a disgrace to any city

Those brand new old style developments are a disgrace to any cityWhy? Lots of people want to live in such areas, so why not give them something they like? Not everyone likes those modernist appartmentblocks, residential towers or sterile new suburbs. It seems like a lot of contemporary architects are still into modernism, while society evolved into post-modernism.

[edit: double]

Those brand new old style developments are a disgrace to any city

actually, there is a lot of controversy about this

I agree with you, it's shamelessly superficial (though it does fit the Zeitgeist rather well). But I have to say, visiting these retro-suburbs it isn't so much the architecture that is impressing, but the refined public space. Sjoerd Soeters is a very sensitive urbanist, which is obviously also proved by the Java developments in Amsterdam (which are modern in style)

i'm from Malaysia..still following this thread, thanks for sharing pics here..

Dutch suburbs are amazing - no country in the world has better organized cities than the netherlands - and i love how you guys embrace your architectural past in your new cityquarters - wonderful.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/29190174.jpg

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The Netherlands.are.awesome 0.0

Are those typical examples of new developments in the Netherlands or is it nothing like the common neighbourhood? This looks just exhilarating! I recommend making a field trip to the Netherlands compulsory for every architecture/planning student. I even feel like extending Holland right now, it's too f*****g small!

These are all typical new developments in the Netherlands. If it comes to urban planning we see the Netherlands as 1 big city with a low population density.

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In 2003.
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@Wuppeltje: Yes, I understand thats a problem. In Germany we consider urban sprawl to be quite problematic. In NL however in a few years time there wont be any more of these neat developments - no space left. And we might just become a suburb of Holland. Maybe that will safe us from a demographic disaster...

Ohh, these suburbs just look so "dutch" :-). I like these kind of minimal architecture, really nice pictures.

Kattenbroek is a Suburb, build in the nineties.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/29579667.jpg

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http://www.ringwoningen.nl/kattenbroek.jpg

http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/9593/wm/pd223597.jpg

http://www.maplume.nl/uploads/article/images/aaf08cdb8ec08cb44fd4a189bfda5ed0.jpg

http://www.gildeamersfoort.nl/images/photoslice/fotos/Kattenbroek_Muurhuizen.jpg

del

del

I like the old netherlands architecture much better. But it is interesting how they keep coming up with new ideas.

Those tiny Amsterdam chanel's houses were product of a time in which construction materials were very costly, land reclamation was painfully slow and laborious and food production was tight. They look very nice, but even if renovated, they are not so comfortable: stairs are too steep and narrow, and space division is not convenient at all.

^^
I think you may have mixed things up a little. The famous canal houses were built in the 17th century, the golden age of The Netherlands and Amsterdam. These homes are huge, even by today's standards (now often divided up into as much as 8-10 appartments). I lived in the attick of one of these houses, which was very comfortable (as well as in a fantastic building and location).
The oldest alleys and streets of the medieval city, and the Jordaan neighborhood do have very narrow houses.

Many of the canal houses were 'mixed use' (many just residential, but many also had storage and manufacturing purposes on the ground floor). Some were transformed to offices, many have been residences in use for a good 300 - 400 years. Their floor plans may not be too practical, but this continuous use shows how flexible they really are. I wonder if the stuff that is built today will last as long.

Staircases are often pretty grand on the first couple of floors of the canal houses. Only the upper staircases can be steep and narrow. But people move big stuff in through the windows with a cargo loft or traditionally with the help of a hoist beam.

Their decorations are very rich, so I don't see any demonstration of a lack of building materials. I also don't see what tight food production would have to do with anything.

I think you may be talking about the homes that were constructed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. These do often have steep stair cases. But again, large things are brought in through the large windows or balconies. They were built with cheap materials, but they do have flexible floor plans, as many have been renovated recently and are situated in neighborhoods that are considered very desirable now (De Pijp, Westerpark, Oud West, Oosterpark). They are now often inhabited by young couples and young families.

have to say I much prefer the older styles of architecture..

the newer stuff is absolutely hideous, no matter how many different "styles" they come up with it all might as well have been pre-fabbed in ikea.

@woutero

Canal houses are generally not small at all indeed, but they are very narrow. In the first phase of the 17th century canal ring plots were 5m wide (18 amsterdam feet), later plots grew bigger up to eventually 24-26. This width was simply related to the maximum construction that could be made by a single span of wooden beams from wall to wall.

On these plots different typologies were built. Apart from this single canal house one can find double houses where one building was constructed over two plots (spanning in the length of the plot) and even city palaces with a double house on two plots and a carriage house on two others. On the other hand there was a lot of speculation in building two third houses - three houses built on two plots - resulting in buildings of 4 meters wide and less.

Especially the last typology are very narrow to modern standards and famous for the 'amsterdam staircase' which is very steep. But believe me, even 5 meters is seriously narrow to fit an apartment + staircase. I'd love to live in one though...

Interesting historic background! I've been living in The Netherlands only for a semester so far. This country has an interesting architeture, and I love those modern houses built as modern. There is a suburb area here in Tilburg under development (Reeshof), and I think they are building nice houses there.

Only thing I miss are single detached new houses, it seems to be very few construction on new single houses that don't share any wall with neighboor's ones and have a detached garage.

As for whole cities, not only an specific historic neighborhood, I particularly like Rotterdam, maybe because it is modern, maybe because of the Maas, maybe because traffic (for bike, pedestrians and cars) is better organized, I don't know for sure :D, but the canal belt in Amsterdam is very interesting also.

What an ignorant signature, "Suburbanist". I hope you didn't come up with that yourself...

(And I consider myself anti-traditionalist, anti-NIMBY, progressive and technology geek).



Plus, maybe you should correct the spelling mistakes...

Interesting historic background! I've been living in The Netherlands only for a semester so far. This country has an interesting architeture, and I love those modern houses built as modern. There is a suburb area here in Tilburg under development (Reeshof), and I think they are building nice houses there.

Only thing I miss are single detached new houses, it seems to be very few construction on new single houses that don't share any wall with neighboor's ones and have a detached garage.

As for whole cities, not only an specific historic neighborhood, I particularly like Rotterdam, maybe because it is modern, maybe because of the Maas, maybe because traffic (for bike, pedestrians and cars) is better organized, I don't know for sure :D, but the canal belt in Amsterdam is very interesting also.

Maybe it is because you live in Tilburg, which is a very poor city. In a city like Breda you will find much more single detached houses.

Besides that, the Netherlands in general don't have lots of single detached housing because everything is planned here to house as much people as possible while still maintaining a backyard for every family, only the rich and famous can afford a single detached house in the more populated area's (Randstad, Brabant and Gelderland).

Maybe it is because you live in Tilburg, which is a very poor city. In a city like Breda you will find much more single detached houses.

Besides that, the Netherlands in general don't have lots of single detached housing because everything is planned here to house as much people as possible while still maintaining a backyard for every family, only the rich and famous can afford a single detached house in the more populated area's (Randstad, Brabant and Gelderland).

'Very poor'?

I agree with the fact that we don't have many detached houses. In the northern part of the country it's not so expensive.

brilliant: simple, elegant. Modern on the one hand and traditional (water, solid frontage, brick) on the other. I would like to live in one of them.

In fact I noticed there are more single houses in Frisland when I travelled there last summer.

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/remador/PC210124.jpg

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/remador/PC220032-1.jpg

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Some images of winter snow in Leidsche Rijn, we had a lot of snowfall last week....

Some pictures from: www.heren5.nl

Seandelft, Zaanstad

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/30410701.jpg

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De bras, Ypenburg, The Hague

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In fact I noticed there are more single houses in Frisland when I travelled there last summer.

It has about a sixth of the population density of Zuid-Holland and close to a third than that of Noord-Brabant, so there's much more space in Friesland (besides that the unemployment lies a lot higher, but that's another story).

Anyhow, generally spoken the whole country has an average population density of a large metro area, but still manages to be a large exporter of agricultural produce (even on an absolute scale the Netherlands is in the world wide top 5 for producing certain vegetables, dairy, flowers and meat) so detached houses near urban centers can only be for the rich.

Maybe it is because you live in Tilburg, which is a very poor city. In a city like Breda you will find much more single detached houses.

Besides that, the Netherlands in general don't have lots of single detached housing because everything is planned here to house as much people as possible while still maintaining a backyard for every family, only the rich and famous can afford a single detached house in the more populated area's (Randstad, Brabant and Gelderland).
Wow what a twat!

Tilburg is superior to freaking Breda in nearly every way from nightlife to culture, from education to development (highrises).
Congratulations on your higher proportion of pretentious white rich people in your municipal borders and that your minorities are mostly Belgians.

Typical Breda bullshit...

Where are the single-family, detached houses?

Where are the single-family, detached houses?

Across the border, in Germany and Belgium, where they cost 30% less than in the Netherlands. A lot of Dutchies actually live there.

There are plenty of detached houses in the NL too, it's just not a preferred style of land use (for good reason). You don't have to be super rich to own one, rather upper middle class.

Wow what a twat!

Tilburg is superior to freaking Breda in nearly every way from nightlife to culture, from education to development (highrises).
Congratulations on your higher proportion of pretentious white rich people in your municipal borders and that your minorities are mostly Belgians.

Typical Breda bullshit...

Please seize your tantrum. Learn to accept, it is ok to be poor Anderson. :lol:

Please seize your tantrum. Learn to accept, it is ok to be poor Anderson. :lol:
I could probably buy your family, but since it would be pretty hard to make a profit of your mom, I wont.

Now stop harrasing me, I wasn't talking to you...

:lol: You are quite uptight aren't you.. stop taking yourself so bloody serious. You are a nobody on the internet, get used to it.

:lol: You are quite uptight aren't you.. stop taking yourself so bloody serious. You are a nobody on the internet, get used to it.
Or here's an idea: Stop replying to my posts which don't concern you at all and stop seeking me out so that you don't ruin perfectely good threads.

Bye now, I'm putting you on ignore with the rest of the idiots...

Where are the single-family, detached houses?

I sort of gave you sort of an answer two posts above yours :cheers:

Where are the single-family, detached houses?
Anywhere the national government hasn't forced a minimum number of homes per hectare on a municipality. So basically the northern, southern and eastern parts of the country.

http://i45.tinypic.com/qqbfdh.jpg
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Anywhere the national government hasn't forced a minimum number of homes per hectare on a municipality. So basically the northern, southern and eastern parts of the country.

So the federal government forces a certain number of housing units per acre? Is it because of a land shortage?

In the U.S., farmers near expanding metropolitan areas often sell their land to developers (often for millions of dollars) and single-family housing units are built on it. Something tells me this doesn't happen in the Netherlands.

I guess he meant to say that the government doesn't force a minimum density (thanks, we are not a Soviet country), therefore where the land is less expensive you can get single houses developments.

Here in the Netherlands getting the appropriate permits is more curbesome (the natives can give you a better info on this, I'm an Italian living here). Sometimes, far more curbesome because entrenched planners want to keep cohesion and smoothness of transition between neighborhoods so they give less freedom on architectural choices etc. to developers (a pity, IMO).

Land deeds operate in a somehow different system, the developer can't just "buy" the land and apply for permits, as the local governments get far more involved than in US about decision on where, what and how new developments are build.

I preffer the American laissez-faire approach in which developers are more or less (sometimes unforunately far less...) free to build what they want with the density they want and the street patterns they want. It works better and, despite recent housing crisis, still provide far more space for the avarage family in US than in Europe. Of course, overall land availability constrains are worrisome here, but neglectable in US in terms of countrywide land usage.

Finally, the Dutch can always expand their landmass draining the Markermeer and the Ijsselmeer and making new polders (like they did in Flevoland), as those (now) lakes have been already diked from some decades

Not my pictures, but this is Dokkum, a small city in the northern part of the country, where I live.

Below you see De Kooilanden, one of the new parts of the city. It took 14 years to build this neighborhood. I used to live there for 14 years now, from the beginning. On the other side of the city they already started to build another neighborhood from the same idea: layout with water, nature, and more expensive houses (above average for this region).

De Kooilanden has 450 houses and 1.710 inhabitants. It's the neighborhood with most children per 1000 inhabitants in this city. The city has 12.750 inhabitants.

Google Maps, De Kooilanden:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dokkum&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.472848,86.572266&ie=UTF8&hq=dokkum&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=53.316698,6.014929&spn=0.011947,0.058622&t=k&z=15

http://i50.tinypic.com/2e5k17l.jpg

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Wow what a twat!

Tilburg is superior to freaking Breda in nearly every way from nightlife to culture, from education to development (highrises).
Congratulations on your higher proportion of pretentious white rich people in your municipal borders and that your minorities are mostly Belgians.

Typical Breda bullshit...

Haha, hahahahahahaha!!

Okay, it was a joke, but since you're taking this so serious..

Tilburg is superior to Breda? Tilburg has two things that are superior to Breda: 1 -> population (170.000 vs 200.000) and 2 -> a university. That's all, because Tilburg has less nightlife than Breda (and I know because I went two times to Tilburg to get out, yes I gave Tilburg a second chance). But a university doesn't mean that the population is higher educated, because in Breda there are more higher educated people (relative). And you call Westpoint or Stadsheer nice development? Those are the most ugly highrises ever built in the Netherlands since the 1990's.

Breda has less highrise development in quantity, but the quality is much better.. take a look at Chassé Park! And now the biggest plus for Breda compared to Tilburg: Breda has lots of history and a much better atmosphere! And you know that!! We have old neighbourhoods with nice herenhuizen (or grachtenpanden as foreigners know that word), we have moats, canals and more tourists

Okay, now some pictures, lets compare Tilburg to Breda.

Breda's central square (Grote Markt)
http://www.digitalefotosite-corenjoke.com/Breda%20(13).JPG
Breda's café square (Havermarkt)
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/4347/havermarkt4.jpg
http://www.lekkerweg.nl/nl/system/Images/uitgaan_foto16_havermarkt_560x350_tcm422-146809.jpg

Tilburgs' central square (Pieter Vreedeplein)
http://mo-b.nl/shops/mo-b.nl/assets/tilburg-pieter-vreede-plein-1.jpg
Tilburgs' café square (Heuvelring)
http://imagene.youropi.com/copy-of-korte-heuvel-tilburg-2(p:location,293)(c:0).jpg
http://www.brabantsdagblad.nl/multimedia/archive/00815/BD_A_4993032-a01_ra_815860b.jpg

Okay I will stop now because this is developing in a city vs. city, and that isn't the purpose of this thread. Oh and Tilburg has much more VINEX locations than Breda, so that is a plus I forgot.

Maybe we're indeed reaching the point where this thread should be locked...

Okay I will stop now because this is developing in a city vs. city, and that isn't the purpose of this thread.

You should have noticed it before you wrote that.

One thing I'd like someone to explain me is why even in lower-density suburbs they love to build houses that share the lateral walls. Can't they build them truly isolated, 4-sided? I know that many photos shown here have those houses, buy my daily observation says that it is very commont to have houses with quite (relatively) huge backyards and front gardens, yet they share other two walls, creating huge "blocs", like in the Reeshof development.

Yea let's keep this thread on topic.

@kaasbroodje, Your comment is is based on nothing. No one over here cares about what city you like better for going out in. That's an opinion, not a fact. So Breda doesn't have a better nightlife. It all get's quite intense here, I know everyone likes to defend their own city. Sadly that's not the purpose of this thread and we should go on with the pictures and technical facts of Dutch suburbs and the way they are planned.

@Suburbanist
The short answer is market forces (especially market differentiation), I guess.

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Some night images of Leidsche Rijn, taken on a winter evening with lots of snow.

One thing I'd like someone to explain me is why even in lower-density suburbs they love to build houses that share the lateral walls. Can't they build them truly isolated, 4-sided? I know that many photos shown here have those houses, buy my daily observation says that it is very commont to have houses with quite (relatively) huge backyards and front gardens, yet they share other two walls, creating huge "blocs", like in the Reeshof development.

Well, perhaps it is because it is cheaper and more efficient to build blocks than 4-sided free-standing houses (which here are more expensive) and also because in NL building land is kept scarce, this country is densely populated and as to avoid the whole country to be transformed in one huge suburbia the transformation of agricultural or natural land in building land is restrictive and what is available has to be used with higher densities. This is not USA, Canada, Australia where land is plenty and sprawl not perceived as a problem....

The pictures are from flickr.com

stadshagen, Zwolle

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/30649276.jpg

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shoppingcenter
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city of the sun, heerhugowaard (still under construction)

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/30649308.jpg

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That last picture is also Stadshagen if I'm not mistaken. I lived in that area for two years. A typical family neighborhood, lots of families with young children, I believe the first few years had like 6 3rd grade classes and only 1 8th grade class (Dutch system) in some elementary schools.

Not much do to for older youths, so this area does have some problems with older youths hanging out near the shopping center, littering the park with broken beer bottles, pot and injection needles.

^^ That's the thing I've also noticed in Estonia. Teens tend to do more stupid things in the suburbs than in the city(I mean mostly vandalizing but also drugs). One of the major reasons is, of course, that there isn't much to do in the suburbs for young people. All the clubs and cinemas and most of the sports facilities and hobby groups are in the city. (At least when talking about Tallinn)

some really nice pictures in this thread.

This is a really interesting thread. I have never been to the Netherlands, but I really enjoy looking at these pictures. On the one hand, your cities look very well planned and ergonomic. On the other hand, even the modern developments are not at all soulless or boring like suburbs in other countries. I also like the fact that many of these suburbs are not only geared towards using the car, but they also look very bike/pedestrian friendly too. You also seem to blend old & new very effectively and the older buildings themselves look very well maintained.

@Confortably Numb: respectfully, I'd like to ask how can you tell a place is "souless" or "boring" only by looking at its u/c pictures?

@Confortably Numb: respectfully, I'd like to ask how can you tell a place is "souless" or "boring" only by looking at its u/c pictures?

If you re-read, I was trying to say that the pictures of these suburbs did not look soulless or boring. Sorry for the confusion.

@Confortably Numb: respectfully, I'd like to ask how can you tell a place is "souless" or "boring" only by looking at its u/c pictures?
The same way we can tell you're a wanker by reading your posts...:)

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I gotta say the design of apartment complexes is quite similar in various VINEX areas.

I also think the urban design in the past 20 years has great variation, yes, they share the fact it's all new and don't look all cozy yet, but you can't dismiss the fact building styles have a great deal of variation throughout these developments. Usually one street looks the same, but the next one is completely different.

That said, I don't really like the mess in Amersfoort-Vathorst or Amsterdam-IJburg where each house is completely different from it's neighbor. That only works with detached homes, not with row houses.

Hmm. You don't like the canal houses in Amsterdam either then, or essentially most dutch or belgium city centers?

Canal houses were built couple centuries ago, when electricity was not an "utility" and disable access were never thought about. The fact I find canal houses historically beautiful (or medieval castles, for that matter) shouldn't mean we were replicating the patter in contemporary built housing.

Hmm. You don't like the canal houses in Amsterdam either then, or essentially most dutch or belgium city centers?

Take a look at this, the only thing similar to the canal houses are the height and width of a building.
http://i25.tinypic.com/30vj5td.jpg

^^

Don't forget the mix of architecture on the canals. It was very common to change the whole facade to the fashion of that time. There are more resemblances than you actually think.

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:ohno:
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I don't know what t think about Dutch suburbs. They look so perfect, when I see them I feel like "this must be perfectionism" but at the same time they look so dull, no sign of "life" at all.

keep up the good work guys, great thread!

I don't know what t think about Dutch suburbs. They look so perfect, when I see them I feel like "this must be perfectionism" but at the same time they look so dull, no sign of "life" at all.

Most people in the Netherlands have this 'double' feeling with the phenomenon. Personally I'm happy the developments got a bit denser these days, resulting at in a bit more life per m2. But we can have evening long discussions about the desirability or undesirability of the suburban typology, and organic vs organised, mix vs single function, homogeneity vs variety etc ...

I don't know what t think about Dutch suburbs. They look so perfect, when I see them I feel like "this must be perfectionism" but at the same time they look so dull, no sign of "life" at all.

I agree with you. Nice planned neighborhoods, but not many people on streets. Most people in neighborhoods showed above work hard, and when it's dark they are at home (sleeping)...

Hello! We are talking about suburbs here...

Indeed. Is a suburb a dull place where people live, or is it simply a place where dull people live?

You can't blame the architects, planners and developers for the latter option.

From flickr.

by Buteijn
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by fotogerard
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/33381346.jpg

by Keesvangestel
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/33381367.jpg

by josephinafoto
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/33381355.jpg

http://www.ecocompactcity.org/Home/brandevoort_AER.jpg

Last summer I made a helicopter trip close to Heerenveen. My main destination was the Abe Lenstras stadium, which I caught rather good actually, but after that fly by we passed one of the bigger new suburbs in the provence of Friesland. This neighborhood is called Skoatterswald, which will sound rather amusing to the English speaking world. :)

Helicopter fly-by. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VTjEG90B-A)






Ypenburg is build on the grounds of a former airforce base which in WW2 was the scene of one of the first large scale air droppings in history. The control tower, although in a rather sad shape, is still present and it will be restored.

From a distance it still looks good but this tower lacks 14 years of maintanance.
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5028/verkeerstorenypenburg9de.jpg

This neighborhood is called Skoatterswald, which will sound rather amusing to the English speaking world. :)

Actually Frisian is the one language most closely related to English.

from: www.architectenweb.nl

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From: www.flickr.com

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:cheers:

Although I love rigorous urban planning (also considering the chaotic construction development in Romania, the country I live in), this Dutch suburbia is too much even for me. It feels like SimCity plastic neighborhoods are coming to life. I much more prefer the German city planning.

I think Dutch people don't know the chance they have to live in cities like that.
As a french man, I live in one of these dutch suburbs built in the 70's, early 80's, (I also lived in Almere and have my family in law there) and even though the architecture is not very nice (houses are all the same), life is very pleasant. And today, the new suburbs that are build do have a nice architecture, which was the only thing missing!
I disagree with the people saying there is no life (even though it tends to be quite true in the winter).
There are always child games at every corner, making a good way to meet people letting their children play, children playing football in the streets. Yes, that's true, that's really the children (along with dogs and cats :-) )that make it alive, but you come in these kind of cities for the kids most of the time.
If I was single, I would go more to the city centers (Utrecht in my case) where you have everything (but not space!).
No, definitely, compared to french suburbs where I live, or any suburbs I've seen in my life, netherlands suburbs are heaven on earth.
In my place, it takes 9 minutes by train to go to Utrecht CS, and 15 minutes to go to Amsterdam Bijlmer/Arena.
So not all the VINEX locations have good public transportation, but in my case (and in the case of Almere where I lived as well), that's really untrue!

Ijbrug, Amsterdam looks awesome really nice original designs ;)

absolutely innovative

:):):):):)

Although I love rigorous urban planning (also considering the chaotic construction development in Romania, the country I live in), this Dutch suburbia is too much even for me. It feels like SimCity plastic neighborhoods are coming to life. I much more prefer the German city planning.

And yet, the design and construction of these suburbs speaks to the architecture of the day and leaves a message for the future about what design was like at the time of construction. This is something that is lacking in North America; at least here in Toronto, where I live, the suburbs are all done up in a pseudo-historic (but cookie-cutter) fashion, referencing a mish-mash of Georgian, Victorian and down-right made up styles, all the while being encased in pink brick veneer. It just doesn't say anything!

i thinks good

Be amazed by Vathorst, a new city district of Amersfoort. I love all those building types :D

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1113583

Looks really great! I see those high buildings a lot when I travel to Schiphol with the train :)

wow you guys are blessed... i wish bosnia will eventually look something like this.. its getting MUCH better though

Alle foto's 10-04-2010.

1. Nesselande ligt aan de rand van Rotterdam aan de Zevenhuizerplas
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4015/4531585347_50316574a4_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/topaas/4531585347/)

2.
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3.
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4.
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5.
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6.
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7.
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8.
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9. De boulevard
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2765/4531599881_1ee9d43ddf_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/topaas/4531599881/)

10. Het winkelcentrum
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11.
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12.
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13.
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17.
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18.
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19.
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20.
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21.
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22.
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23.
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24.
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25.
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26.
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27.
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28.
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29.
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30.
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31.
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32.
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33.
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34.
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35.
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36.
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37.
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38.
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39.
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40.
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41.
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42.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2797/4532248172_738e6a7b9b_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/topaas/4532248172/)

43. En tot slot de torens Miami en Barcelona
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2795/4532248692_b547c5a6a2_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/topaas/4532248692/)

:cheers:

Great stuff, the Dutch truly are masters at urban planning!

Those suburbs are indeed orgasmic. But isn't Holland's population decreasing? Why building suburbs?

Those suburbs are indeed orgasmic. But isn't Holland's population decreasing? Why building suburbs?


Dutch population is growing 0.436% per year.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/Population_of_the_Netherlands_1900-2000.png

Ah I see :) Thanks :cheers:

Next to that, households are getting smaller so more homes are needed.

apart from that, pre 80's housing neighborhoods are technically (isolation) and sometimes functionally, urbanistically or socially outdated. Some of these neighborhoods get upgraded but often neighborhoods get entirely or partially replaced.

Kruidenbuurt Eindhoven

http://rijnboutt.nl/files/resources/443/images/2389/inline.jpg

http://www.trudo.nl/files.aspx?PID=19860&FID=5125

http://rijnboutt.nl/files/projects/150/images/2048/full.jpg

http://www.niki.nl/xml/action/housetypepicture?housetypeid=3877&size=large&order=1

http://www.trudo.nl/files.aspx?PID=13116&FID=5080

http://www.trudo.nl/files.aspx?PID=13079&FID=5029

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/3093749900_2ee69e1e74_b.jpg

http://www.trudo.nl/files.aspx?PID=13079&FID=5028

Typical for the last 15 years is this corner with appartments with internal parking (integrated nicely here) - cityplanners demand pluiformity in size and type to create a more mixed demography for the neighborhoods.