Republic of New Zealand - Yes or No

[Kane007]

Well Mike Moore has stirred the hornets nest in this election year.

He has not actually come out and actually advocated a Republic per se but rather the initiation of a constitional debate. So this ties several things together.

1. a new flag.
2. a written absolute constition
3. head of state
4. a republic

It's to begin a debate in order to see wether we as kiwi's should 1st have 1 law above all other laws enshring our rights, the structure, seperation and controls on our legislative/executive/judicial branches of government.

But in the end it will come down to the question of a republic.

Why?

Well if the consecious is for an enshrined supreme law, under which the checks and balances are strictly laid out and the seperation of the 3 branches are enforced then how is the power of the executive - currently the Prime Minister and Cabinet - going to be structured seperately from the legislative - Parliament.

At the moment I can see the logical step would be the executive to be in the hands of a more empowered Governor General or a President.

I'm leaning towards a French or Irish or even Russian version.

So yes this written constition doesn't mean the end of the British Monarch's influence but do we really want to give her or him the powers that King Charles I had? Or will we want a 100% indiginous GG or even cleaner lets call them El presidente :)

Once this step is taken, well we're right back at the title for this thread.

[Svartmetall]

I believe NZ should be a republic.

NZ shares absolutely no similarities with the motherland any more, culturally (except sports), attitude wise or even architecturally (not really anyway except for a few colonial buildings).

There is no benefit anymore for being a member of the Commonwealth even, other than Kiwis being able to gain entrance to the UK easier (a practice I think should be abolished since it's not reciprocated).

[jarbury]

Hell yes to us being a republic. Isn't it embarrassing for us that after over 100 years of at least semi-independence (nobody really knows when NZ became independent, and we actually seem to pretend it didn't happen, instead celebrating Waitangi Day which could be seen as our unindepedence day) we still have a British person as our head of state.

New flag, good idea to have some sort of constitution (especially considering how frequently we have elections). Not really sure whether I'd want a "President" of sorts having much more political power than the governor general does now, but FFS at least they'd be a Kiwi!

[Svartmetall]

Hell yes to us being a republic. Isn't it embarrassing for us that after over 100 years of at least semi-independence (nobody really knows when NZ became independent, and we actually seem to pretend it didn't happen, instead celebrating Waitangi Day which could be seen as our unindepedence day) we still have a British person as our head of state.

New flag, good idea to have some sort of constitution (especially considering how frequently we have elections). Not really sure whether I'd want a "President" of sorts having much more political power than the governor general does now, but FFS at least they'd be a Kiwi!

I'd not want a presidential system unless it mimics the French system rather than the American.

[Lostboy]

New Zealand must become a republic if it is to sustain its reputation for being a progressive country.

As an aside I feel that too many New Zealanders are apathetic about their country and would like it to become simply another one of Austraia's states, what an unfortunate end for the Sweden of the Pacific.

[Kane007]

I too see the conections shrinking. But like India or South Africa or even Singapore, there will always be ties. A shared heritage, love for fish and chips, and driving on the wrong side of the road :).

But the differences are just snow balling. Me I can think of only 1 British TV show I currently watch and enjoy - Dr Who! The rest, well is mainly American.

Music - I prefer American Jazz, European 18th century classical, Australian and New Zealand Pop. A little bit of British.

Food - Much prefer a hot dog to mushy peas or even a pie.

etc...

[Kane007]

From Wikipedia about the setup in Ireland...

"The state is a republic, with a parliamentary system of government. The President of Ireland, who serves as head of state, is elected for a seven-year term and can be re-elected only once. The president is largely a figurehead but can still carry out certain constitutional powers and functions, aided by the Council of State, an advisory body. The Taoiseach (prime minister), is appointed by the president on the nomination of parliament. The Taoiseach is normally the leader of the political party which wins the most seats in the national elections. It has become normal in the Republic for coalitions to form a government, and there has not been a single-party government since 1989.

The bicameral parliament, the Oireachtas, consists of a Senate, Seanad Éireann, and a lower house, Dáil Éireann. The Seanad is composed of sixty members; eleven nominated by the Taoiseach, six elected by two universities, and 43 elected by public representatives from panels of candidates established on a vocational basis. The Dáil has 166 members, Teachtaí Dála, elected to represent multi-seat constituencies under the system of proportional representation by means of the Single Transferable Vote. Under the constitution, parliamentary elections must be held at least every seven years, though a lower limit may be set by statute law. The current statutory maximum term is every five years."

[Svartmetall]

I too see the conections shrinking. But like India or South Africa or even Singapore, there will always be ties. A shared heritage, love for fish and chips, and driving on the wrong side of the road :).

But the differences are just snow balling. Me I can think of only 1 British TV show I currently watch and enjoy - Dr Who! The rest, well is mainly American.

Music - I prefer American Jazz, European 18th century classical, Australian and New Zealand Pop. A little bit of British.

Food - Much prefer a hot dog to mushy peas or even a pie.

etc...

Mmhm, not something that I personally like to see - it makes my wish to return home even stronger as American culture becomes all the more pervasive. I really REALLY dislike American culture and all the woes it brings with it.

I only watch British TV - even staying up til late to watch Ab Fab! I hate American trash (well, except for House, but it's got a British actor as the lead, does that count? ;) )

Music wise - I only listen to European music, and that includes classical. Most classical music out of America is banal and self-serving bombastic nonsense; see John Williams.

[Kane007]

A footnote to those monarchists among us. Elizabeth wont be the sovereign for too much longer, and then guess what.... you will get King Charles III!

Yep, I too look forward to that jousous day like a massive hangover :)

[Svartmetall]

A footnote to those monarchists among us. Elizabeth wont be the sovereign for too much longer, and then guess what.... you will get King Charles III!

Yep, I too look forward to that jousous day like a massive hangover :)

It'll be King William. Can you imagine the British public and their response to another King Charles? Only King Charles the II actually did any good for the country whatsoever. I think after the III we'd conclude that 1 out of 3 for that name is a bad ratio and ban anyone with the name of Charles from becoming king again. :lol:

[jarbury]

The Irish system sounds like a pretty good one to me Kane. Not too different to what NZ has now, in terms of the roles of the Prime Minister and how parliament would function.

[SYDNEY]

I don't really mind and quite enjoy the attachment to Britain but I would prefer it if we could be part of Australia ..... okay, I am running away now ......

[Svartmetall]

I don't really mind and quite enjoy the attachment to Britain but I would prefer it if we could be part of Australia ..... okay, I am running away now ......

I'm not sure I'd want that... I used to think that Australia was so much more progressive than NZ, so much better at "getting the job done", however, beneath the superficial seemingly efficient system they have, they also have exactly the same problems that both you and I dislike in the NZ bureaucratic process. Look at NSW and the current premier! I personally if I lived there would want to strangle the absolute slimey git!

Also, economic prosparity there isn't exactly what I thought it was. It seems that in every country where morgages are endemic there are serious problems showing, mainly stemming from the fact that home ownership encourages debt and debt eventually comes to bite you in the backside. The UK, Australia and NZ all rely on the existance of a housing market to buoy up the economy and create this false impression of growth driven by the demands of migrants and investors in real estate, Australia is particularly feeling the pinch with housing affordability at an all time low.

I'd wait and see for a few years yet to see if the UK, Australia and NZ are bitten hard by the bubble that recently popped in the US. Personally I won't be buying a house ANYWHERE in the near future - renting is the way to go! :cheers:

[SYDNEY]

I'm not sure I'd want that... I used to think that Australia was so much more progressive than NZ, so much better at "getting the job done", however, beneath the superficial seemingly efficient system they have, they also have exactly the same problems that both you and I dislike in the NZ bureaucratic process. Look at NSW and the current premier! I personally if I lived there would want to strangle the absolute slimey git!

Also, economic prosparity there isn't exactly what I thought it was. It seems that in every country where morgages are endemic there are serious problems showing, mainly stemming from the fact that home ownership encourages debt and debt eventually comes to bite you in the backside. The UK, Australia and NZ all rely on the existance of a housing market to buoy up the economy and create this false impression of growth driven by the demands of migrants and investors in real estate, Australia is particularly feeling the pinch with housing affordability at an all time low.

I'd wait and see for a few years yet to see if the UK, Australia and NZ are bitten hard by the bubble that recently popped in the US. Personally I won't be buying a house ANYWHERE in the near future - renting is the way to go! :cheers:

I might be viewing things through rose-tinted glasses :lol: ... the current economic climate has also persuaded us to sell our house and rent for the next couple of years ... also, we received a lovely Christmas present ....

We pay $4 000.00 / annum ground rent here and recently the estate has been sold now we have to pay $20 000.00 / annum ... fuck them, we are not going to help make them rich ...

Hold thumbs boys that we get to sell our place soon.

[Davee]

The Irish system sounds like a pretty good one to me Kane. Not too different to what NZ has now, in terms of the roles of the Prime Minister and how parliament would function.

Big difference to NZ.

We lack a UPPER HOUSE.

Long Live the Republic!!

[jarbury]

I don't really think we need a upper house.... what would its purpose be in the NZ political system?

[Davee]

To slow down legislation.

Keep a check on a Lower House that must be the worst behaved in the Western World.

To act as a proper reviewing body, rather than the Select Committes that are made up of the same politicians that are going to vote through bills.

To draw on experts (if it is made up like the Irish system) of appointed and elected people, rather than half the numb skulls we have in our single chamber at the moment.

It will bring us in line with the great democratic govemental systems of the world that seem to work well.

Places a buffer zone between the "Law Lords" and the Head of State (The Bristish House of Lords is working very well now and is being VERY effectual).

A good Upper House acts as a true guardian of Democracy. :banana:

[Svartmetall]

I agree Davee. Also heralding from the UK, I did actually quite like the system of the House of Lords simply to stop the more crazy legislation from making it through to law.

[ZEALand]

I think a Bicameral legislature is a better idea, New Zealand did have an Upper house once upon a time. I also think a formal written constitution is the way to go. Svarty maybe you can remember an episode of Blackadder season three where he forgot that the House of Lords would never agree to a bill proposed by Pitt the younger hehe.

[Svartmetall]

I think a Bicameral legislature is a better idea, New Zealand did have an Upper house once upon a time. I also think a formal written constitution is the way to go. Svarty maybe you can remember an episode of Blackadder season three where he forgot that the House of Lords would never agree to a bill proposed by Pitt the younger hehe.

I do indeed! Lord Baldrick! :lol:

[ZEALand]

:) Sod Off :lol:

[Davee]

Turnips :nuts::lol:

[minimum chips]

Can I sit on the fence on this one. I dont care either way. I loved the comment about badly behaved western govt's. My dad is Belgian and they've had a constitutional crisis there for the last 8 months or so because no one wants anyone else to govern. Kinda like Kenya without the slaughter. Although Belgians are good at creating their own chaos. I dont mind monarchys, Ive always liked the Belgian one- hate the Tongan one and am indefferent to the British Royals. I want to see Charles as the next king. That William, boy is he overrated. If thats what passes for good looking in England...sheeeesh. Now Im rambling. I'll think about it overnight and post my definite thoughts tomorrow.

[Davee]

I agree Davee. Also heralding from the UK, I did actually quite like the system of the House of Lords simply to stop the more crazy legislation from making it through to law.

So True. I think if the Mother of all Parliments has a two house system - it must be a good thing.

I do like the Irish Model.

[Svartmetall]

Can I sit on the fence on this one. I dont care either way. I loved the comment about badly behaved western govt's. My dad is Belgian and they've had a constitutional crisis there for the last 8 months or so because no one wants anyone else to govern. Kinda like Kenya without the slaughter. Although Belgians are good at creating their own chaos. I dont mind monarchys, Ive always liked the Belgian one- hate the Tongan one and am indefferent to the British Royals. I want to see Charles as the next king. That William, boy is he overrated. If thats what passes for good looking in England...sheeeesh. Now Im rambling. I'll think about it overnight and post my definite thoughts tomorrow.

Belgium is a false nation anyway really - it's mainly Dutch and French with the poor Flemmish caught inbetween so I'm not surprised there is a problem. Both the Netherlands and France were at one point looking at annexing parts of Belgium. :ohno:

As for good looking and William, that doesn't enter the equation for me - he's better looking than Charles! Also, William is all for downsizing the wastefulness of the British monarchy, unlike Charles who is an absolute spendthrift who married a horse.

PS for Davee: "I'd buy a great big turnip in the country"

[jarbury]

....unlike Charles who is an absolute spendthrift who married a horse.

:lol: Hilarious! I think a fairly general point is that the royal family have become so irrelevant to us there's really no point keeping them in the system anyway.

The current situation just leads to weird things like the formal owner of all the country's schools being "Her Majesty the Queen". How stupid is that?

... waiting for bluffmaster to explain their vote...

[minimum chips]

Belgium is a false nation anyway really - it's mainly Dutch and French with the poor Flemmish caught inbetween so I'm not surprised there is a problem. Both the Netherlands and France were at one point looking at annexing parts of Belgium. :ohno:



We are the Frenchies. Apparently we are good for nothing unemployable child murdering drunkards unlike the Dutch speakers in the north. Man I am so glad my dad came out here before I was born. I cant entertain the thought of having grown up in Belgium. NZ's been good to our family. Maybe Im swaying towards Kiwi republicanism. We can do it before our german speaking neighbour Austria. Lets keep the Belgian royal family, they're the only think keeping that country together.

[Svartmetall]

I think a fairly general point is that the royal family have become so irrelevant to us there's really no point keeping them in the system anyway.

In a way I think it is rather a shame that the monarchy has become irrelevant to Kiwis as it is part of the social tapestry that made up this nation. Denying any affiliation for the monarchy is denying the roots of colonial New Zealand.

But I do agree that it no longer applies, hence my comment about the distancing from Britain and the lack of shared culture with NZ being more culturally reminiscent of America in my humble opinion.

[jarbury]

I have no problem reading about the monarchy in history books. For my final year's schooling I studied England 1558-1667 and found it fascinating. I'm not sure how relevant they are to our country today though.

In reality royalty reflect a severely inequitable and unfair political system of the past. People only really seem interested in which member of the royal family is cheating on which other member. It's a shambles really, and embarrassing to be linked to this.

[minimum chips]

^^ I think European histories are really interesting. But i did really well in that subject. French Revolution, the Reformation, Spanish Inquisition, Irish troubles. But none of it is relevant to us here in New Zealand is it? The British link is enexorable (bad spelling but you know what I mean) Maybe the world wars and the amount of Kiwis who died defending the Empire, then the UK joining the EC in 73. So even until recently the UK has shaped our country.

[jarbury]

Oh yeah I find European history fascinating.

6 out of my 8 university history papers were on European history (USA in the 60s and Southeast Asian history being the exceptions).

I guess what I'm saying is that you can still honour history and be a republic. Oh and we might even throw in a proper independence celebration eventually, rather than pretend it didn't happen.

[GoluBoy]

1. a new flag.
2. a written absolute constition
3. head of state
4. a republic

^^ Bring It On!

[Kane007]

Actually I think I put the flag in the wrong sequence - it should be at number 4. Probably a freudian slip :).

[MonsieurAquilone]

I did vote for "vive la république" option but we must consider this:

Lamentably, the New Zealand education system barely has a civics studies related subject at school and yet we are already reconsidering becoming a Republic (It is basically a given in Europe). I'm all for it but so much more needs to be done so the youth of this country understand what it means to be the Republic of New Zealand, who our previous leaders have been and for what the republic stands. You have to admit, there will be people in this country with no idea how our current government operates - what does that augur for NZ?

Once we set that sort of groundwork, we will know more intimately our national identity.

[jarbury]

^^ Agree with that. Though I do remember quite a bit of election related political stuff when I was at school, but not much more than a little bit of "this is how the electorate system works" once every 3 years.

[flyin_higher]

I say yes. We will become a republic sooner or later. Its just a question of when, and how.

[Milan Luka]

Svarty you surprise me. For some reason I assumed you would be one to keep the Queen as head of State. Might be more to do with my prejudice about the English.

For historical reasons I have no problem with keeping them on board. I think a time will come when the general consensus sways away from the status quo. If the Nats get in next election I cant see it happening. TBH but I do find it kinda wierd that we hold this very strong tie to the UK. Not everybody in NZ can claim anglosaxon or celtic heritage. Can we do a swap and replace them with the Grimaldis of Monaco maybe? Think of all the glamour they would bring, not to mention all the extra Ferraris and Lotuses driving around Auckland if that happens. Sydney will have a screaming meltdown trying to take all the shots!

[Svartmetall]

Svarty you surprise me. For some reason I assumed you would be one to keep the Queen as head of State. Might be more to do with my prejudice about the English.

For historical reasons I have no problem with keeping them on board. I think a time will come when the general consensus sways away from the status quo. If the Nats get in next election I cant see it happening. TBH but I do find it kinda wierd that we hold this very strong tie to the UK. Not everybody in NZ can claim anglosaxon or celtic heritage. Can we do a swap and replace them with the Grimaldis of Monaco maybe? Think of all the glamour they would bring, not to mention all the extra Ferraris and Lotuses driving around Auckland if that happens. Sydney will have a screaming meltdown trying to take all the shots!

Well, it's like I said earlier. The more I live here, the more I realise that culturally New Zealand has deviated from the UK on many fronts and so we're not really an applicable model in terms of Government anymore.

Don't be too surprised - I'm still an ardent supporter of the system back home, I just don't believe it should be applied to New Zealand. :)

[Kane007]

And here I was starting to think Svarty a roundhead who longed for a return of the Cromwellian Interregnum :)

[Svartmetall]

And here I was starting to think Svarty a roundhead who longed for a return of the Cromwellian Interregnum :)

Shhhh.... Blow my cover and I won't be happy. :poke:

[dodge321]

As a former colony of the UK, I think New Zealand should adopt a similar form of government to Singapore or Malaysia (republic).

Modern NZ is built by New Zealanders and any ties with the UK is history, there are pretty much no more practical ties with the UK. I think having the Queen of England as the head of state is something that undermines (not practically, but theoretically) NZ's sovereignty, NZ should choose its own head of state like Singapore.

Also I think the NZ flag should be changed, it just seems weird having another country's flag on our flag, and I just think a flag without the union jack would give NZ a real sense of identity imo, and perhaps incite more patroitism. I know I as a NZ citizen (not a kiwi) would feel more proud looking at a flag without the union jack.

And anyway we would still have links to the UK after becoming a republic - we'd still be in the commonwealth. The little club of nations with historical ties to the UK that are now independent.

And another thing, we don't even have a proper national day, a day to celebrate the creation of the NZ that exist today, which is a pity.

[Svartmetall]

Waitangi day isn't a national day? I can understand why many Kiwis don't want this to be the national day for the country; however, it is a poignant day in NZ history.

Do you really want to be patriots? Kiwis are pretty fiercely loyal to their country already; I'd not want fist thumping, flag waving Yank-like Kiwis storming round saying "NZ F--- YEAH!!!!!!”

The talk about having a national identity being brought about by simply changing government is an idealist’s view at the least. NZ has already built up a national identity and merely changing an outdated formality won't bring about vast social upheaval nor will it change everyone’s attitudes towards their country which they are already proud of - goodness me they are proud of it!

I personally find patriotism disturbing when exhibited to the extent that the Americans do. It comes across as xenophobic, small minded and insular - something that I would hate NZ to become.

[dodge321]

Yea you're right on the patriotism bit, most NZers are already proud and loyal to NZ, suppose that wasn't a very valid argument for changing the form of government.

But I still support changing the flag.

[jarbury]

If you think about it, Waitangi Day is really the day NZ lost its independence.

How many countries celebrate that?

[Svartmetall]

If you think about it, Waitangi Day is really the day NZ lost its independence.

How many countries celebrate that?

Not many! :lol:

But you can see my point that it is a national day and a pivotal one in NZ history despite all negative connotations.

[jarbury]

Oh exactly. I just don't think we should think of it as an 'independence day' type of national day, when in reality it's the opposite.

OK. With a bit of investigation, I've found this:

In 1907, New Zealand became an independent Dominion and a fully independent nation in 1947 when the Statute of Westminster (1931) was ratified, although in practice Britain had ceased to play any real role in the government of New Zealand much earlier than this.

Hmmmm... the history of NZ wiki page says absolutely NOTHING more about this...

Dug a little deeper:

The Imperial Conference of 1907 resolved to allow certain colonies to become independent states, termed 'Dominions'. Following the Conference, the House of Representatives passed a motion requesting that King Edward VII "take such steps as he may consider necessary; to change New Zealand's official name from 'The Colony of New Zealand' to 'The Dominion of New Zealand'. Prime Minister Sir Joseph Ward prompted to move to "…raise up New Zealand" and assured that it would "...have no other effect than that of doing the country good". On 9 September a Royal Proclamation granting New Zealand Dominion status was issued by King Edward VII. The proclamation took effect on the 27 September. As a result, the Office of Governor became Governor-General in 1917 to reflect more fully New Zealand's status as a Dominion.

So our real "independence day" is September 27th?

Maybe not:
In 1946, Prime Minister Peter Fraser instructed Government departments not to use the term 'Dominion' any longer, and the following year New Zealand adopted the Statute of Westminster Act on 25 November 1947 with the Statute of Westminster Adoption Act 1947. This Act allowed the New Zealand Parliament full legislative powers, extra-territorial control of the New Zealand military and legally separated the New Zealand Crown from the British Crown.

Further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_of_New_Zealand

[Svartmetall]

^^ Perhaps a second national day would be worthwhile then! There is no reason why both can't be celebrated.

Phew, at least this debate is less emotionally charged, rhetoric infused and emotional than the similar Aussie one! :lol:

[jarbury]

I always thought Australia Day celebrated the coming together of all the states into one country, but actually it's just the day a few people sailed into Port Jackson in Sydney and established a penal colony. Hooray!

"Loss of independence" day and "we built a prison" day. Geez we do national days well down in this corner of the world!

[Svartmetall]

I always thought Australia Day celebrated the coming together of all the states into one country, but actually it's just the day a few people sailed into Port Jackson in Sydney and established a penal colony. Hooray!

"Loss of independence" day and "we built a prison" day. Geez we do national days well down in this corner of the world!

Better than celebrating sharing a meal with natives and then hunting them and stuffing them into camps for the next 150 or so years.

[jarbury]

Another reason to vote "yes"!

Royal family snubs Sir Ed, funeral details announced
Updated 2:36PM Friday January 18, 2008
By Keith Perry

Buckingham Palace has decided not to send a member of the royal family to Sir Edmund Hillary's funeral in what will be seen as a snub to one of the country's greatest legends.

A Palace spokesman told the Herald the Queen would be represented by the Governor General Anand Satyanand at the funeral on Tuesday.

Full details of the funeral were announced by Prime Minister Helen Clark today.

She denied the move would be seen as a snub and it was considered "appropriate" that the Queen should be represented at the funeral.

"The Governor General is the Queen's personal representative," the spokeswoman said.

The Queen is instead offering to hold a memorial service at Windsor Castle in April - a rare move.

Sir Edmund Hillary was one of only 24 Knights of the Garter appointed by the Queen and his success as the first man to step on the summit of Mt Everest was proclaimed on the morning of Her Majesty's coronation in 1953.

The Everest expedition was a British one, and Hillary's success was claimed as a huge triumph for Britain.

Helen Clark said the funeral details had been agreed after consultation between government officials, Anglican clergy and Sir Ed's widow Lady Hillary and other family members.

The Prime Minister said: "The arrangements for the lying in state and for the screening of the funeral service will enable many New Zealanders to be part of, or follow closely, the farewell to Sir Edmund."

The funeral will be broadcast live on TVNZ and radio New Zealand and on large screens in Auckland's Domain and the Viaduct Basin. Live coverage will also be on nzherald.co.nz

Special shuttle buses will operate between Britomart and the Domain.

[minimum chips]

Thats a bit crap I reckon. Why not even send Princess Euphemia of Worcestershire for gods sake. Im sure one of them could have gotten on a plane for a junket to NZ. To be fair I doubt whether Sir Ed would've cared either way.

[Svartmetall]

Another reason to vote "yes"!

That is a bit skewed. At least they're offering to hold a memorial service in England for him.

[sensible]

so many people seem to leap up and down that our constitution is 'unwritten'. I think most of these people wouldnt know the difference between the two, and to be honest i dont think they would even know what a constitution really is.

Our constitution is more 'living' than 'unwritten' the latter term is largely a figure of speech amongst law makers from the 19th century. Our current constitution is completely felxible in such a way as it can be moulded to the times, unlike Australia where the written, absolute constitution keeps its toes in 1901. Seriously, is it democratic to bind future generations to the ideas and ideals of the current?

Our current constitution needs some cleaning up, but seriously to call NZ undemocratic, corrupt etc etc as i saw in some earlier posts is laughable. We also dont need a second house, sure as dave suggests it checks legislation yet look at the problems Britain and Australia have had with theirs, especially when it comes to money bills. Sure weve had rogernomics and ruthenasia yet there is nothing stopping us from throwing out those governments and forcing EASY change. That, to me, is more democratic. We have had sound safe government for over 150 years, and despite MMP the current government has been going for almost three full terms! Other than for someone to write themselves into the history books, i see little need to make major changes other than symbolicly making the Governor general the president. Keep it simple.

[minimum chips]

Ive been thinking about it a fair bit lately, especially since Sir Edmund Hillarys death and am starting to think that we are big enough and ugly enough to become a republic now. It might be an impetus for some national pride---- not blind hand on heart tub thumping more a quiet understated good feeling of going there first. Kiwis are good at that one at least. And also thinking we have 'gotten there first' even if its convenient to forget the other 14 countries that got there before us. No matter how much we try to pretend it doesnt bother us we seem obsessed with our big neighbour and forever trying to prove we are better than them (which is like comparing apples and oranges- both good, just different). If we did become a republic it might help us to feel we stand apart just like the Nuclear Free thing.

Nothing against the UK of course. We are linked and NZ will always have that bond. Remember we were so very nearly were governed by Amsterdam or Paris. Its just a twist of fate we ended up a Commonwealth country. I cant help thinking though if it was the Dutch who bothered to lay the claim we would have become a republic in the 50's. If it was the French though we would still be a colony a la Tahiti or N Caledonia.

[eighty4]

long live the queen :lol:

[gappa]

so many people seem to leap up and down that our constitution is 'unwritten'. I think most of these people wouldnt know the difference between the two, and to be honest i dont think they would even know what a constitution really is.

Our constitution is more 'living' than 'unwritten' the latter term is largely a figure of speech amongst law makers from the 19th century. Our current constitution is completely felxible in such a way as it can be moulded to the times, unlike Australia where the written, absolute constitution keeps its toes in 1901. Seriously, is it democratic to bind future generations to the ideas and ideals of the current?

Our current constitution needs some cleaning up, but seriously to call NZ undemocratic, corrupt etc etc as i saw in some earlier posts is laughable. We also dont need a second house, sure as dave suggests it checks legislation yet look at the problems Britain and Australia have had with theirs, especially when it comes to money bills. Sure weve had rogernomics and ruthenasia yet there is nothing stopping us from throwing out those governments and forcing EASY change. That, to me, is more democratic. We have had sound safe government for over 150 years, and despite MMP the current government has been going for almost three full terms! Other than for someone to write themselves into the history books, i see little need to make major changes other than symbolicly making the Governor general the president. Keep it simple.

Just a correction: the majority of Australia's constitution is also 'unwritten' and is more a convention, we have nothing analogous to that of the USA et al. And even parts of the written constitution can be changed by referendum, which has occured around eight times in the past.

[sensible]

to ammend the australian constitution not only do you need a majority referendum in all of australia you also need a majority in a majority of states... which means tasmania (pop aprox 400 000) can hold up an amedment supported by a vast majority of australians... have a look, your eight amendments by referendum have occured out of how many attempts in 107 years? Its HEAPS! look it up.

Yes i know a lot of australias constitution is also unwritten and based upon convention and yet that also supports my point even further... it ends up getting ignored and loop holed anyway...

So not really a correction at all... where did the USA come into it?

[eighty4]

i cant be bothered reading through this entire thread but my view is

The NZ economy isnt that great

If you arent part of the commonwealth then you loose a lot of benefits. So none of you kiwi's coming over for you "big OE" and none of you getting passports cos ya grandparents were english.

You are a small island nation.....how are you going to defend your own country if it was attacked ?

[eighty4]

by the way i love nz, i no ive said it b4 i just dont want people jumping down my throat for my comments lol and i dont mean to offend anyone with my twisted view lol

[Svartmetall]

i cant be bothered reading through this entire thread but my view is

The NZ economy isnt that great

If you arent part of the commonwealth then you loose a lot of benefits. So none of you kiwi's coming over for you "big OE" and none of you getting passports cos ya grandparents were english.

You are a small island nation.....how are you going to defend your own country if it was attacked ?

You can be a Republic and still be a member of the Commonwealth - South Africa is one example of this, Singapore another. India is a republic and still a member. The list goes on.

The controls on claiming British ancestry have been tightened and there is no more of that "YEY EU PASSPORT" due to EU pressure to stem the number of EU passports being handed out to former colonies. The French are an odd exception due to the Francophone africans qualifying.

[Mr_kiwi_fruit]

You are a small island nation.....how are you going to defend your own country if it was attacked ?

Who would want to attack NZ in the first place? :nuts:

[Kane007]

Apart from an attacking nation needing "motive", said nation would also require the infrastracture. To be honest I can only think of a half dozen nations off the top of my head with the actuall capability of mounting a raid/invasion what ever.

If your indoubt just look at the UK reconquest of the Falkland Isles in 1981, and that was in the same ocean and they needed lots of support!

[eighty4]

Who would want to attack NZ in the first place? :nuts:

pikeys

[gappa]

to ammend the australian constitution not only do you need a majority referendum in all of australia you also need a majority in a majority of states... which means tasmania (pop aprox 400 000) can hold up an amedment supported by a vast majority of australians... have a look, your eight amendments by referendum have occured out of how many attempts in 107 years? Its HEAPS! look it up.

Yes i know a lot of australias constitution is also unwritten and based upon convention and yet that also supports my point even further... it ends up getting ignored and loop holed anyway...

So not really a correction at all... where did the USA come into it?

Off the top of my head I think there have been 42 or so referendums.

Your first post asserted that Australia's constitution kept 'it's toes in 1901', this is where I felt you were comparing it to the US constitution where various interest groups (gun lobby) ensure some archaic practices remain. I agree more with the above assertion that it can be 'loop holed' and hardly chains Australia to the past.

[Mr_kiwi_fruit]

pikeys

What on earth are pikeys? :)

[jarbury]

^^ I've been wondering that too...

[Cartel]

What on earth are pikeys? :)

Gippos, Gypsies:lol:

[Davee]

What on earth are pikeys? :)

slang here in the uk for Irish Gypsies.

[jarbury]

So why would they be wanting to attack NZ?

[Mozsmith]

Bring on the Republic of Aotearoa.

[Svartmetall]

So why would they be wanting to attack NZ?

I think he was being funny. ;) (Or at least attempting to be).

[jarbury]

^^ Not a very good attempt I don't think ;)

... I'm still awaiting a good argument against NZ becoming a republic.

[Mr_kiwi_fruit]

^^ Yip, agreed, there are enough Queens on this forum - we can afford to let one go.....:)

[BLUFFMASTER_Auckland]

ok heres my 2 cents worth

Who gives a Fu*K about whether NZ becomes a republic or not??
Arent there other important things the NZ government and public should worry about?? Like investing in better infrastructure, higher incomes, affordable housing, Health, Crime, Education....Race Relations, Treaty Of Waitangi-Forshore etc etc etc :):):):):):)

[eighty4]

ok heres my 2 cents worth

Who gives a Fu*K about whether NZ becomes a republic or not??
Arent there other important things the NZ government and public should worry about?? Like investing in better infrastructure, higher incomes, affordable housing, Health, Crime, Education....Race Relations, Treaty Of Waitangi-Forshore etc etc etc :):):):):):)

you think NZ should invest in crime ?

[MonsieurAquilone]

I think New Zealand should invest in decent politicians. Most of them are there to roll around in the public trough like the pigs they are. (Sorry, my farm animal friends for the metaphor.)

[Milan Luka]

^^ Can you name one country with 'decent politicians' but? Singapore decided to increase the pay of it's MPs to approx $500000 per annum to 'get the best candidates' but I dont think they are well served. North Korea and China have excellent politicians :cry: . Belgium doesnt have a functioning government because they cant work together. I dont think there is such a thing as a grouping of decent politicians. In most western countries I do think they are well meaning people trying hard to make their countries better places.

[BLUFFMASTER_Auckland]

you think NZ should invest in crime ?

Well thats one thing people need to worry about! :)

[jarbury]

I think it's an issue. Doesn't mean we should stop worrying about other things though.

[MonsieurAquilone]

I'd rather invest in going aginst crime :lol:

[Kane007]

Is this a push by Britain for NZ and even Australia towards republicanism or just another stab in the back ala 1973 EEC!

Kiwi OE in danger from UK visa plan - NZ Herald 2008/02/23 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10494094)

"Many New Zealanders greatly value their connections with the UK, especially those whose grandparents were born there," she said.

Well speak for yourself Heir Clark, for me this is just one more nail in the coffin for the monarchists! This is one more shove from their colonial masters to "piss off, you smelly, barbaric colonists" :)

How about ... "Labour MP Austin Mitchell - who was a university lecturer in New Zealand in the 1960s - wrote in the Daily Telegraph that the proposal showed "a great contempt for the long historic associations between Britain, New Zealand and Australia"."

Now who is showing the contempt here - us republicans or some realists in the home office!

I know, lets get even. We'll teach them for fucking us over in 1973 and with this... we'll dump the Union Jack from our flag! Hurrah :)

[Svartmetall]

I think it's a bit unfair to jump on the "OMG H8 AT BRITAIN" bandwagon here... Lets put things into perspective here.

Helen Clark for one is a Republican, she makes no bones about wanting to form a Republic of NZ.

Secondly, NZ is DARNED difficult for British people to get into, why should Britain make it easy for Kiwis and Aussies to move there? Personally I think equality should be the name of the game. If you guys make it hard for us to move to NZ, equally it should be tricky for Kiwis to move to England, tit for tat and all that.

Yes, Britain joined the EU and thus upset NZ's economy due to sourcing foodstuffs from elsewhere, but you can't just hate a country for sourcing trading partners elsewhere. I see no preferencial treatment here for Brits.

Why the anti-British sentiment, Kane? I mean I've had it from Kiwis before, but I'd not expect it from you.

[Kane007]

Not anti - british, though definately anti clark as well as anti monarchist. Was hoping my smilie icons were correctly placed, but might have put them in the wrong locations, to attempt some 'black' humor.
I know I'll never be as good as the sex pistols, or monte python or even THE BLACKADDER, but I gotta practice in order to get good at it :)

[Svartmetall]

I'm anti-monarchist for the colonies, but I like it being there back home. As I've said countless times, I'd rather both Australia and NZ become Republics. ;)

Black humour simply doesn't work online unfortunately! I shall have to send you away to watch the Third Series of The League of Gentlemen. Now THAT'S black!

[Kane007]

I haven't actually heard of that series, shall check tv.com and then some torrent portals.:okay:

Actually marbecks or amazon.com may also have it.

EDIT: found all 3 seasons @ isohunt, have only select S03E01 - The Lesbian and the Monkey - to try out :)

[Milan Luka]

Cant remember who or when this happened (I do know I was drinking at the time but) a Brit telling me that many people didnt like ditching NZ in '73. It was nice to hear, I didnt know they cared so about us.

Think you are correct Svarty re republicanism in the Antipodes. I just think NZ should whack it into place fairly quickly and leave our big neighbour to eat our dust wondering how we did it first.

I doubt anyone would be proposing mounting a British backlash or anything like that. One it has nothing to do with the average Brit and two it would be pathetically petty on our part.