The Netherlands got many old trainstations. Some examples:

Amsterdam:
http://www.bmz.amsterdam.nl/adam/pics/msp/centraal3.jpg
http://home.hetnet.nl/~marco.zevenbergen/railway_nl_bestanden/Amsterdam-cs-hal02.JPG

The Hague:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1163/1442527816_3e38634786_o.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Den_Haag_Centraal_stationshal.JPG/800px-Den_Haag_Centraal_stationshal.JPG

Groningen:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Station_Groningen.jpg/798px-Station_Groningen.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Hall_train_station_Groningen.JPG/450px-Hall_train_station_Groningen.JPG

Haarlem:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Station_Haarlem_Hoofdgebouw.jpg/800px-Station_Haarlem_Hoofdgebouw.jpg

Zwolle:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Stazwolbloem.JPG/800px-Stazwolbloem.JPG


There are also some smaller cities with old trainstations:

Leeuwarden
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Leeuwarden_station.jpg/800px-Leeuwarden_station.jpg

Valkenburg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Bahnhof_valkenburg01.jpg/800px-Bahnhof_valkenburg01.jpg

Middelburg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/StationMiddelburg.jpg/800px-StationMiddelburg.jpg


That's it. I hope you like the Dutch trainstations ;)

Do you have any pics of the trainsheds?

And yes, they are very beautiful and well maintained.

is it just me or do they all look a bit the same???

There is a similar style, but they're decorated differently.

is it just me or do they all look a bit the same???

Just you, unfortunately.

I thought the trainstation in the hague is a large shabby concrete building? and is it true the Amsterdam Centraal is actually sinking?

^^
Good that you say that because the 1st picture is from The Hague HS (Hollands Spoor) station and the second is the interior from the much newer Den Haag Centraal station. Centraal is indeed a shabby concrete building, although they're renovating it right now. They are the two main stations of The Hague.

Zwolle has a nice trainstation indeed :) It has been build in 1864, and is thus now 144 years old. Though it's not a very large trainstation, it is one of the most important in the Netherlands, it has 7 (future 8) radiating railway lines, though the importance of the railway yard is diminishing. There are plans to rehabilitate the whole area called "Spoorzone", or "railway zone" in English.

It has also an important busstation, with buses sometimes queuing up the area, though it is mostly used by students and the elderly.

Do you have any pics of the trainsheds?

And yes, they are very beautiful and well maintained.

Amsterdam Centraal:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Amsterdam_centraal_side.jpg/800px-Amsterdam_centraal_side.jpg
notice the flying wheel on the left shed

http://citysnapper.org/chantrey/holland/photos/20020601001amsterdam.jpg

Den Haag Hollands Spoor:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Den_Haag_HS_binnen.jpg/800px-Den_Haag_HS_binnen.jpg

Haarlem:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Haarlem_station_binnen.jpg/800px-Haarlem_station_binnen.jpg

Amsterdam Centraal:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Amsterdam_centraal_side.jpg/800px-Amsterdam_centraal_side.jpg
notice the flying wheel on the left shed

Those trainshed roofs remind me a lot of Newcastle Central (UK)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Newcastle_Central_%28brendada%29.jpg/800px-Newcastle_Central_%28brendada%29.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Newcastle_Central_Station.jpg/800px-Newcastle_Central_Station.jpg

Well, OK, it's not in Holland, but there is a strong Dutch heritage in many of our buildings in Cape Town. This is Muizenberg Station, on Cape Metrorail's Southern Line:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1099/1405171607_eed610ea2d.jpg?v=0

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9641/45852210ks1.jpg (http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=45852210ks1.jpg)

The station of Apeldoorn still has it's monumental station but it's completely renovated and placed into a new trainstation.

How it is now:
http://refdag.nl/media/foto/2008/49242-a.jpg

What it was:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/nl/station/misc_A-C/Apeldoorn-2.jpg

I

I couldn’t find a thread on Dutch Railways, so I thought I’d start one. If there's already one: feel free to ignore this.

The Dutch Railway system is not as extensive as the railway systems in neighbouring Belgium and Germany (in route length per inhabitant or route length per square kilometer) but is nevertheless quite extensive and VERY heavily used.

It consists of about 2.800 km of railway track of which 75% is electrified, and 2/3rds has double, triple or quadruple tracks. It serves 383 train stations. The tracks are owned and maintained by ProRail, a state controlled company.

The system is operated by different companies, of which the NS (Nederlandse Spoorwegen – Dutch Railways) is the largest. NS operates all main lines of the network. NS’s only shareholder is the State of The Netherlands. NS also owns and operates most railway stations. Other companies that operate (regional) railways include Arriva, Connexxion, Synthus and Veolia.

There are a couple of different kinds of trains:

Stoptreinen/sprinters are local trains, which stop at each stop
Sneltreinen stop at fewer stops
Intercity trains only stop at intercity stations

On most stretches the maximum speed is 140 km/h. Due to heavy use and a mix of local and fast trains, higher speeds would result in lower capacity.

The Dutch railway system is said to be the most heavily used system in Europe, and third in the world (source wikipedia, not sure which would be first and second). Its usage much resembles the use of the highway network (about which there is an extensive thread on this forum): very heavy use, and an messy mix of local, regional and longer distance travelers.

Some numbers:

NS (so excluding the other operators) transport 1,1 million passengers per day (on a national population of 16 million).
NS operates about 4.500 train rides/routes per day
NS accounts for 15,5 billion passenger km per year
NS employs 26.000 people
Punctuality in 2007 was 87% (means 87% of the trains were on time, which means less than 3 minutes delay)


In the last decade the system has been upgraded. Many capacity bottlenecks have been resolved by creating railway flyovers to prevent trains from crossing each others paths, and by creating four track railways on the busiest stretches. Some new railway stretches have been constructed (such as the Betuwelijn between Rotterdam and the German border for freight, and the high speed line Amsterdam – Rotterdam - Brussels - Paris), and some stretches are under construction (like the Hanzelijn between Lelystad and Zwolle, offering a faster connection to the Northern Netherlands). Some regional lines have been ‘downgraded’ to regional lightrail lines (like the Hofpleinlijn and the Zoetermeerlijn).

To give you an idea of the intensity of use of the system:

On the stretch between Utrecht and Amsterdam, 12 trains per hour pass per direction outside rush hours.
Many of the trains can hold up to 700 people per train.
250.000 people use Amsterdam Central Staion daily (not sure if this includes subway and tram users).
When the high speed rail between Amsterdam and Rotterdam be operational, it will have 6 trains per hour per direction.
On the most rural routes there are usually still two trains per hour. Very few lines only have one train per hour.


Bad points:

Due to heavy use delays often occur.
Train speeds are not very high. On most intercity lines 140 km/h is the maximum speed.
The train often feels more like a metro system, which takes away some of the charm.
International routes are limited. There are only two rail connections with Belgium, and six with Germany.
Train system does not reach all towns.


Some images:

Network (red is 1 track, blue is 2 tracks, green is 3 tracks, yellow is 4 tracks)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Meersporigheid-v1.4.PNG/300px-Meersporigheid-v1.4.PNG

Common trains:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/VIRM6.jpg/800px-VIRM6.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/4012_ICM.JPG/797px-4012_ICM.JPG

Thalys (which won't go fast until HSL is finished)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Thalys_Amsterdam_Centraal.jpg/800px-Thalys_Amsterdam_Centraal.jpg

sprinter:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/SGMm_2983.JPG/800px-SGMm_2983.JPG

Some Dutch trainstations:

Amsterdam:
http://www.bmz.amsterdam.nl/adam/pics/msp/centraal3.jpg

The Hague:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1163/1442527816_3e38634786_o.jpg

Groningen:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Station_Groningen.jpg/798px-Station_Groningen.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Hall_train_station_Groningen.JPG/450px-Hall_train_station_Groningen.JPG

Haarlem:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Station_Haarlem_Hoofdgebouw.jpg/800px-Station_Haarlem_Hoofdgebouw.jpg

Zwolle:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Stazwolbloem.JPG/800px-Stazwolbloem.JPG


There are also some smaller cities with old trainstations:

Leeuwarden
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Leeuwarden_station.jpg/800px-Leeuwarden_station.jpg

Valkenburg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Bahnhof_valkenburg01.jpg/800px-Bahnhof_valkenburg01.jpg

Middelburg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/StationMiddelburg.jpg/800px-StationMiddelburg.jpg


A few more Dutch trains:

http://treinpunt.damnserver.com/TreinPunt/Afbeeldingen/Materieel/sprinter_new.jpg
New Sprinter

http://www.stadskanaalrail.nl/actueel/nieuws/data/upimages/spurt_dronryp.jpg
Spurt

Thanks for the pic's Woutero, I love the Dutch railway system.

Some additional info on international and night trains:

Current international trains (not all stops mentioned):

1 Intercity train per hour: Amsterdam – Rotterdam – Antwerp - Brussels
4 Intercity trains per day: Amsterdam – Hengelo – Hannover - Berlin
8 ICE (High Speed) trains per day: Amsterdam – Köln – Frankfurt (1 continues to Basel, 1 to Munich)
7 Thalys (High Speed) trains per day: Amsterdam – Rotterdam – Antwerp – Brussels - Paris

The High Speed Trains still run slow on the regular Dutch tracks. But that will change (at least for the ones to the south) once the HSL is finished.


High Speed Trains when the HSL will be in use (expected as of october 2008):

1 train per hour Amsterdam – Schiphol – Rotterdam – Antwerp – Brussels – Paris
1 train per hour Amsterdam – Schiphol – Rotterdam – Antwerp – Brussels
2 trains per hour Amsterdam – Schiphol – Rotterdam – Breda
2 trains per hour Amsterdam – Schiphol – Rotterdam
8 trains per day The Hague – Rotterdam – Breda – Noorderkempen – Antwerp – Mechelen - Brussels


Current international night trains:

1 train per day Amsterdam - Warsaw/Moscow/Minsk (splits)
1 train per day Amsterdam - Copenhagen/Prague (splits)
1 train per day Amsterdam - Milan/Vienna (splits)
1 train per day Amsterdam - Munich/Zurich (splits) (in winter to Garmisch Partenkirchen)
1 train per week ’s-Hertogenbosch - Bologna (summer only) (car/sleep train)
1 train per week ’s-Hertogenbosch - Livorno (summer only) (car/sleep train)
1 train per week ’s-Hertogenbosch - Avignon (summer only) (car/sleep train)
1 train per week Utrecht – Bisschofshofen (winter only)
1 train per week Utrecht – Innsbruck (winter only)
1 train per week Utrecht – Lausanne (winter only)


Domestic night trains:

Each night an hourly service between Utrecht – Amsterdam – Schiphol – Leiden – The Hague – Rotterdam
On thu, fri and sat nights hourly service Utrecht – ’s-Hertogenbosch – Eindhoven
On thu, fri and sat nights hourly service Rotterdam – Dordrecht – Breda – Tilburg – Eindhoven
On thu, fri and sat nights hourly service ’s-Hertogenbosch – Tilburg
Some additional trains run on Saturday nights (e.g. Utrecht– Veendendaal - Ede – Arnhem – Nijmegen)

Just so you know, those first and second busiest systems are Japan and probably Switzerland. Which is in Europe, but not in the EU, so I guess it's the busiest in the EU.

I love NS

I just read that the new Sprinter won't have any toilets on board. Strange, because the direct train from Alkmaar to Rotterdam CS (journey of 2h30) is a sprinter.

Come on, only blind people would take that train, most other travellers would Change trains in A'dam and travel by InterCiy in one hour between both cities. So. if you wanna poo between A'dam and R'dam, take the IC, it has a toilet on board. Dont forget, there is a HighSpeedRail coming in the next four years.

^^Yes, but from Rotterdam to Amsterdam Muiderpoort it is the fastest connection, and this takes about 1h30, so if you've got to go, you've got a problem

^^Yes, but from Rotterdam to Amsterdam Muiderpoort it is the fastest connection, and this takes about 1h30, so if you've got to go, you've got a problem

The sprinter is the fastest connection? I have a hard time with that - wouldn't you do Rotterdam-Amsterdam with a faster connection and then Amsterdam-Amsterdam Muiderpoort?

Yes, it is, I looked it up on the site of the ns. At first, I also thought it would be else. It is also one of the recommended connections between Rotterdam and Uitgeest, which takes about 2 hours. This is because the travelling time by intercity between Rotterdam and Amsterdam is 52 mins. With the new HSL coming up (which will take a few more years) the time will be cut to 30 mins. Travelling time from Amsterdam to Breda (which is 2 hours now), will be cut to 1 hour.

@Timon Kruijk

Rotterdam Centraal - Amsterdam Muiderpoort is a pretty unlogical route. Most people will go the Amsterdam CS first and than transfer (reason more trains between Rotterdam and Amsterdam). If you don't have to be very close to Amsterdam Muiderpoort it is better to take a bus problably to CS first.

Rotterdam Centraal - Uitgeest can be taken by 2 trains in 1:18.

Sprinters are making sometimes long journeys, but virtually nobody has to be in them for 1 hour or more. If you do than you are problably making a very unlikely trip. Many people don't like toilets in trains too. In Zeeland and other areas there are bus trips over 1 hour, which are quite normal. I don't hear people complain in those busses about toilets.

So when HSR is scheduled to open?

After the summer, according to a newspaper today.

^^But the real HSL trains won't ride yet, isn't it? They will just use normal wagons and a normal loc.

^^But the real HSL trains won't ride yet, isn't it? They will just use normal wagons and a normal loc.

That's correct.
There are already Thalys HST's running, but due to the lack of ETCS they still have to run on conventional tracks.
ETCS will be added when they are modernised in the near future, but this will be after the services are already started.

The new HST's from AnsaldoBreda are ordered, but are for now nowhere in sight :ohno:

Those slow Italians with their AnsaldoBreda. :(

I even thought that when it takes too long for AnsaldoBreda, that there will just be normal French TGV's running on this track....

No, that way they wil spoil the travellers and they wouldn't like it when the AnsaldoBreda trains arrive

Has anyone heard a rough guess of the date that the AnsaldoBreda trains are finished?
And I have another question: a few weeks ago I drove over the A15 towards Nijmegen, along the Betuwelijn. The fact that I didn't see any trains took my attention. Does anyone know if there are any trains using this track?

Has anyone heard a rough guess of the date that the AnsaldoBreda trains are finished?
And I have another question: a few weeks ago I drove over the A15 towards Nijmegen, along the Betuwelijn. The fact that I didn't see any trains took my attention. Does anyone know if there are any trains using this track?
No nothing is known about the AnsaldoBreda train, there was a rumor then 1 set would go to a testtrack in Velim (CZ) a while, but afaik that hasn't happened yet.

Yes, the Betuweroute is used, but only by 100 trains a week due to problems with the security systems. But before the summer the frequency should go up to 4 trains an hour.

There are problems with the High Speed Line between Antwerp (Belgium) - Dutch border. Something with that ETCS, and the NMBS (Belgian railways) want to use the line for commuter trains to Antwerp, because in the area around the HSL live many commuters to the city of Antwerp, most of that people are going by car, and the make the city of Antwerp terrifying to live. There are also buses of "De Lijn", but they are very very slow.
The NMBS has build a train station in "Brecht", called "Noorderkempen, and they want to use it for a shuttle sevice between Antwerp and Breda, stopping in that station.

The (probably) first photos of the HST: http://www.ferrovie.it/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19549

The train looks ok, the colours seem quite familiar to me. The intercity Amsterdam-Brussels has the same colours

I don't like it.

Everyone likes NS. so do I.. It are my initials! :D [ My favourite color is yellow btw ]

http://www.freewebs.com/sebassite/NS%20DD-IRM.jpg

http://www.science.uva.nl/research/amstel/dws/praktijk2/content/images/ns_trein.jpg

New Train design

http://www.siemens.nl/onlineTV/download/3/lighttrain_ns.jpg

Rotterdam Centraal is closed, They are building a new station.

http://www.rijnmond.nl/files/Media/09-2007/02-09-Rotterdam_CS.jpg

Impressions:

http://www.prorail.nl/NR/rdonlyres/9B15B56D-F767-4093-91D2-0BD0441E451F/0/Promenadeweb.jpg

http://www.ret.nl/uploads/files/haltescs.jpg

http://www.nrc.nl/multimedia/archive/00096/foto_1__1__treinen_96000a.jpg

Utrecht Centraal is the busiest train station in The Netherlands. Most of the trains are coming through Utrecht.

Pics

http://www.ho0sier.com/nl/utrecht/utrecht_centraal.jpg

http://www.opps.nl/HamCms/UserFiles/Image/Utrecht_OVT.jpg

http://www.freewebs.com/treinenfotos/treinen%20055.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Utrecht_Centraal_CTA.jpg/800px-Utrecht_Centraal_CTA.jpg

More information about Dutch Railways will follow.

I will keep this thread up to date :)

http://www.siemens.nl/onlineTV/download/3/lighttrain_ns.jpg



Lol, if you look at the sign you can conclude that this pic must have been "taken" at Abcoude station, which is ways smaller that the station on the drawing/projection/picture. :)

the hanzelijn,, i guess since the founding of lelystad this line was allready in mind. but they waited with it untill now, they're busy with it for a few years now and in 2013 it has to be in use.
http://www.osplatform.nl/flevoland/hanzelijn/afb/kaart16.jpg
it's a filler in a big hole of the dutch railway map. finally they fill it.

this line will contain 2 big constructions, one 750 meter tunnel

http://www.osplatform.nl/flevoland/hanzelijn/afb/tunneldrontermeer.jpg

and a new bridge across the ijsel river, wich will be about 1 km long
http://www.osplatform.nl/flevoland/hanzelijn/afb/spoorbrug2.jpg

large pieces of this line will be build on a dyke, total groundworks are about 3,5 milion kubic meter sand.

also new trainstations will be build, one for the city of kampen, and one for dronten (both are actually villages)
the design of these stations will be simular to the picture below
http://www.osplatform.nl/flevoland/hanzelijn/afb/kampenstation.jpg

most of the track will be made for 200 km/h, so named fasttrack rail.

before this all is finished they will start to double the tracks between within the city of almere from 2, to 4 tracks and all stations will be renewed.

just to let you know:)

Lol, if you look at the sign you can conclude that this pic must have been "taken" at Abcoude station, which is ways smaller that the station on the drawing/projection/picture. :)

The station is Amsterdam Sloterdijk:

http://www.stationsweb.com/station.asp?station=amsterdamsloterdijk&vraag=sloterdijk

^^It might be Sloterdijk (that was the station I was thinking about first), but if it first stops in Amsterdam Bijlmer, followed by Duivendrecht, Amsterdam Amstel, Muiderpoort and Centraal. First stop before Amsterdam Bijlmer is Abcoude.

The station on the picture is Sloterdijk, the sign has to be from station Abcoude.

I wish that the Abcoude train station was this big :D
Anyway, I read somewhere about a new timetable (again) for all trains. When will this come? And when will IC's coming from Amsterdam CS stop in Amsterdam Bijlmer?

^^, You can see it's a render.. Photoshopped ;)

^^Of course I can see that, but they haven't thought about this one than, when putting that sign over there. Ok, it's only an indication of how this train is going to look like, but still.

^^ The train will indeed look like that. I've seen pictures of it while it was standing on a trainyard. That (new) one is there for testing purposes to get the certificates to operate on dutch rails.

When will it be operated for passenger traffic for the first time?

^^, once when we're getting retired i guess

Drachten wil treinstation ondergronds


DRACHTEN -
Een toekomstig treinstation Drachten moet grotendeels ondergronds worden aangelegd. Dit wil de gemeente Smallingerland, die grootse plannen heeft voor het stationsgebied.

Ook de A7 zou ter hoogte van Het Zuid overkluisd moeten worden, zodat bovengronds ruimte komt voor nieuwe wegen, flats en kantoren.

Als provinciale staten volgende week het groene licht geven voor de spoorlijn Heerenveen-Groningen, dan biedt dat Drachten en Heerenveen grote kansen, zegt gedeputeerde Piet Adema van verkeer en vervoer. Hij pleit voor verplaatsing van het station in Heerenveen naar het Sportstadgebied.

Smallingerland tackelt met een overdekt station een bereikbaarheidsprobleem. De treinhalte komt namelijk net buiten Drachten te liggen, aan de zuidkant van de A7. Door de snelweg en het spoor in de grond weg te stoppen, kan het verkeer deze barrières omzeilen.

De komst van treinen zorgt er ook voor dat Drachten vervroegd gaat uitbreiden richting Beetsterzwaag. Dit betekent uitstel voor de eerder geplande sprong over de Wâldwei (Drachten-oost). Het vliegveld hoeft hierdoor het eerste decennium niet te worden verplaatst.

Location of Drachten North NL:

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8822/naamloosht3.gif

Not really professional. I will draw the route when I have the time.

This Station is really important for Drachten. It's a pretty large city in the North, and every city surrounding it has a train station. Now they have to drive to Leeuwarden or Heerenveen.

NS National Railways HSL
Amsterdam-Brussel
http://www.vlaky.net/upload/galeria/002845/050542.jpg

NS National Railways ICE
Amsterdam-Frankfurt
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1114/987183437_9db406fff7.jpg?v=0

Thalys
Amsterdam-Paris
http://www.blwnscale.com/blwphotos/ka-tgv-thalys.jpg

NS National Railways Intercity
Most common trains in whole of the Netherlands
http://www.hgbtf.net/download/file.php?id=421

NS National Railways Interregio (Metropolitan area Randstad)
Most common trains in the western parts of the Netherlands
http://www.hgbtf.net/download/file.php?id=831

NS/NMBS National Railways Beneluxtrain
Amsterdam-Brussel daily service every hour
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2454/hpim1960wy7.jpg

Syntus Railways
common trains in the eastern parts of the Netherlands
http://www.spoorkeerl.nl/pages/02-03-2006/27-SGM.jpg

NS/DB Berlin-line
Amsterdam-Berlin daily service every two hours
http://www.hgbtf.net/download/file.php?id=832

NS National Railways Stoptrein
Common train in the northern and eastern parts of the Netherlands
http://aycu34.webshots.com/image/14753/2001047408893257997_rs.jpg

NS National Railways Stoptrein (Metropolitan area Randstad)
Commuter train in the western part of the Netherlands
http://www.nicospilt.com/anderen/GW20080130_3614-1.JPG

Connexxion Rail Stoptrein
Railservice mid part of the Netherlands
http://www.ovronddordt.nl/230907_Valleilijn/XX5032_Bnn_230907.jpg

Arriva Rail stoptrein
Railservice northern, mid-western and southern parts of the Netherlands
http://www.ovronddordt.nl/forums/140908_eersteGTWs/10505-10502_32545_Gr_140908.jpg

Left NS Stoptrein Right Connexion Twents Stoptrein
Railservices eastern part of the Netherlands
http://www.geleraaf.nl/2007-2/treinm/trein8575-64.JPG

NS/NMBS National Railways Beneluxtrain
Amsterdam-Brussel daily service every hour
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2454/hpim1960wy7.jpg
This is not a Benelux set, this is just a regular IC push pull set from the NS. The driving trailer is a rebuild normal 2nd class coach, the design was only based on the Benelux trailers.

Benelux set, the driving trailer is still in the original colors, the rest of the coaches are in the new design for the temporary shuttle services on the HSL Zuid that should start soon. Those services won't push-pull operated and making the Benelux driving trailers redundant.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/2236821230_d116979437_o.jpg

And this is how it will look on the HSL Zuid during a test near Benthuizen with the new Bombardier Traxx locos.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/2869936707_1eac87b117_o.jpg

And some more trains on the Dutch tracks

Sprinter Light Train (SLT) build by bombardier and Siemens, they are planned to go in service in December between The Hague, Gouda and Utrecht.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2416975490_9d328136c2_b.jpg

The original Sprinter (SGMm), recently completely refurbished. They are used on the urban networks in the Western part of the country, mostly around Amsterdam, The Hague and Rotterdam.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3082/2392487441_b96cbb996f_b.jpg

DD-AR set with MDDM driving trailer, mostly used on stopping services and some fast trains in the Western part of the country.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3013/2895119158_6aa89cccf7_o.jpg

Other DD-AR sets are powered with a class 1700 locomotive.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3059/2667277523_e5149b5673_b.jpg

Plan T / V "Mat '64" or "Stoppers", used in stopping services all over the country. They are now being fased out,

4 car NS Plan T

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2104/2246765474_b87d81a954_b.jpg

NS 2 car Plan V in service for Veolia.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3007/2909619143_332167ba0c_b.jpg

Were they will be replaced by GTWs build by Stadler

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3024/2909624535_c47a9fcc17_b.jpg

:applause: wonderful update and very nice trains... Nederlands has a good system obviously.

That new HSL train (uppermost pic) is so incredibly ugly :ohno:

Interesting topic!

Here a picture of the old Wadloper on the end of the line Leeuwarden - Harlingen:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Nemo01/Harl13.jpg

This train is nowadays replaced by a newer model of Stadler.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/Nemo01/harli01.jpg
pictures by me

Though i liked the older Wadlopers for more nostalgic reasons, the newer trains are a huge improvement. The Stadler are more quiet, they provide more space and they are much faster. During one of my last trips in the Wadloper the exhaust gasses were blown into the cabines because of a broken exhaust system. Pretty disgusting.

^^Harlingen Haven train station. I was there just 1½ week ago. The new trains are a big improvement indeed. All Wadlopers are out of service now. The last ones were used on the line Nijmegen-Roermond.

what is the speed of National Railways HSL ?

^^ Right now it's 0 km/h, since it's not in service yet due to several technical problems causing too many delays.

But the 1st shuttle trains will go only 160 km/h, but they will be replaced by the weird looking trains that go 250 km/h (if they ever come into service, delays, delays, delays.) Plus the Thalys will do it's maximum speed of 300 km/h on the line.

what about National Railways Intercity trains? Their speed?

I never knew one of those trains is only being used in the Randstad area. I'm not that much in the other parts of NL so I wouldn't know.

120 to 140 for regular IC's, I think. Some lines like Amsterdam Bijlmer-Utrecht and the future line Lelystad-Zwolle are ready for 200 km/h, but the top speed of those IC's is 160 km/h.

do you have intercity buses?

^^ Right now it's 0 km/h, since it's not in service yet due to several technical problems causing too many delays.

But the 1st shuttle trains will go only 160 km/h, but they will be replaced by the weird looking trains that go 250 km/h (if they ever come into service, delays, delays, delays.) Plus the Thalys will do it's maximum speed of 300 km/h on the line.

Why do NS and SNCB order these new (and ugly) trains for their HSL? In both countries there are for example Thalys and ICE in service which are able to drive 300, so why do they take these new trains who are only able to drive 250?

Or if the Eurostar trains would be compatible to the signal technique in Netherlands, a connection between Amsterdam and London would be nice as well.

do you have intercity buses?

Yes, we have buses called the "interliner", but it's not as widely used as for example the Greyhound in the US, because we have a good train system which brings you to your destination faster.

Why do NS and SNCB order these new (and ugly) trains for their HSL? In both countries there are for example Thalys and ICE in service which are able to drive 300, so why do they take these new trains who are only able to drive 250?



They wanted something completely new to show the Benelux identity. Like the TGV is French and the ICE is German. So I don't know how they got to this design, but I think they just held a contest, picked out the ugliest design and decided to build that one. The ICE and Thalys are really much nicer, I agree with you.

Or if the Eurostar trains would be compatible to the signal technique in Netherlands, a connection between Amsterdam and London would be nice as well.

Hopefully, but I guess plane will stay the fastest way of travelling between Amsterdam and London. Nowadays this train connection is still a pain in the ass and we are all hoping for improvent with the new HSL.

^^ We got stuck with the AnsaldoBreda trains since they won the tender for these trains because they were the cheapest. The design of the train is by Pininfarina, so it should be good. But it just shows that even the greatest designers don't always deliver. It would've been better if they would've chosen for a tested design, then we could have got something better. Although I don't think a TGV or an ICE were in the race, since they didn't fit the specifications for the tender.

Yes, we have buses called the "interliner", but it's not as widely used as for example the Greyhound in the US, because we have a good train system which brings you to your destination faster.
Actually, since bus services are all regulated Intercity buses are only allowed on routes that aren't directly connected by train.

And we have the Interliner

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2302/2387406534_e363b51540.jpg?v=0

the Qliner

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3161/2894120059_22d9face31.jpg?v=0

and the Brabantliner

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2836046706_743621dcdc.jpg?v=0

thank you for the infos. I thin only Germany doesn't have intercity buses...

http://www.open.ou.nl/hon/RRFLang8.jpg

http://www.panoramanederland.nl/img/panorama_luchtfoto/panoramaluchtfoto_78.jpg

http://www.webcollie.nl/1/hsl.jpg

http://www.prorail.nl/SiteCollectionDocuments/Publiek/Doc/Img/Projecten/HSL-Zuid/HSL%20Brug%20Hollandsch%20Diep.jpg

http://www.verkeerenwaterstaat.nl/english/Images/OV%20-%20HSL-Zuid_tcm249-190386.jpg

http://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/hsl/Images/TP060706%20HSL%20Bundel%20HSL-A4_039_tcm51-64633.jpg

http://www.hslzuid.com/hsl/uk/Images/Doorgaand%20spoorviaduct%20Bleiswijk%20(TP040421-46)_494x241_tcm112-11426.jpg

http://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/hsl/Images/TP040929%20HSL%20BUNDELHSL-A16_019_tcm51-11311.JPG

http://www.prorail.nl/SiteCollectionDocuments/Publiek/Doc/Img/Projecten/asd_ut/LuchtfotoUtrechtboog.jpg

http://www.zuidoostlob.amsterdam.nl/bijlagen/overkapping%20station.jpg

http://www.prorail.nl/SiteCollectionDocuments/Publiek/Doc/Img/rondleiding/Bijlmer%20ArenA%20perron%20400px.jpg

http://www.bekahout.nl/resources/blocks/Bijlmer%20station%20nummer%202.jpg

http://www.zwolle.nl/cms/ecard_graphics.nsf/Lookup/Centraal_Station_Zwolle/$file/station_big.jpg

http://www.science.uva.nl/research/amstel/dws/praktijk2/content/images/ns_trein.jpg

http://www.stedenbaan.nl/content/images/397.jpg

This has won a price for best design. Chairs are higher so you can put your stuff underneeth it.
http://www.io.tudelft.nl/live/binaries/6362513d-449b-4843-9e4b-0bab57016a78/img/ns-4b.jpg

This new railway infrastructure looks sick ^^

but I don't want to know how it will look like in 5-10 years :ohno: probably won't be white anymore...

Which train type is that new interior with those higher red chairs?

^^ It looks like the lower deck of a VIRM, but it's just a design study it's not an actual interior. Maybe something for when the trains are up for refurbishment, the only things that should be sorted is the legroom, the seat are standing a bit to close to each other. But the idea is good, there's not enough space to leave your luggage in the VIRM.

http://www.io.tudelft.nl/live/binaries/6362513d-449b-4843-9e4b-0bab57016a78/img/ns-4b.jpg

If that is sorted it could already be used for the DD-AR conversion to Intercity trains that will start soon.

thank you for the infos. I thin only Germany doesn't have intercity buses...

Apparently intercity buses are banned in France to prevent competition with SNCF.

Apparently intercity buses are banned in France to prevent competition with SNCF.

Really? I always thought intercity buses are everywhere.

^^ than means you don't know about transportation..

how many stations are there between Amsterdam and Brussels with NS National Railways HSL ?

HSL-Zuid stations between Amsterdam to Brussel: Amsterdam CS- Schiphol Airport-Rotterdam CS-Antwerp CS - Brussel South Station/ CS

http://www.hslzuid.nl/hsl/Images/bedieningspatroon_494x442_tcm51-22105.jpg

The infrastructure is finished since 2006, but there are still sum problems with the safetysytem and most important, the trains still not delivered by the Italian manufacture AnsaloBreda! Originally the HSL Zuid scheduled for completion in 2007, it is now expected to open in mid 2009.

The new line is expected to shorten travel times for international and domestic services.

Amsterdam-Rotterdam 0:43 (currently 0:58)
Amsterdam-Breda 0:59 (currently 1:44)
Amsterdam-Antwerp 1:10 (currently 2:00)
Amsterdam-Brussels 1:44 (currently 2:40)
Amsterdam-Paris 3:04 (currently 4:04)
The Hague-Brussels 1:44 (currently 2:17)
Breda-Brussels 0:59 (currently 1:44)

left train NS 'HiSpeed', with a rental locomotiv to Brussel. Right train Thalys to Paris.
http://www.open.ou.nl/hon/Thalys4331Essend.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Hsl4_Antwerpen-Noord.jpg

http://www.hslzuid.nl/hsl/Images/TP040323%20HSL%20BRUGHOLLANDSCHDIEP[JP]033_1024x681_tcm51-22284.JPG

http://www.hslzuid.nl/hsl/Images/Aquaduct%20Ringvaart%20(TPoktober2004-07)norm_tcm51-11297.jpg

Amsterdam and the The Hague are upgrading their stations. Rotterdam and Breda get a totaly new station.

It's a beautiful project, but there have been just too much problems. Hopefully it will open soon and turn out to be efficient, otherwise it's all been for nothing :ohno:

Very nice info...

I noticed that HST has normal locomotive, why?

That's temporary, until the new high speed trains arrive. You know, the very ugly ones.

so what is its (this green loco's) speed?

^^ Not much. :/ Just regular speed.

160 km/h

Man, I can't believe the Netherlands doesn't have true HSR yet!!

why? What is Thalys?

^^We also have the ICE, going to Frankfurt am Main. However, both Thalys and ICE don't run at full speed, but 150 km/h maximum. So no high speeds yet. And yesterday it was announced that it will take another year for the HSL-Zuid to open, because AnsaldoBreda can't deliver the trains on time and because there are more problems with the safety system. If it continues like this, this safety system will turn out to be working well, since there has never happened an accident there, because we keep delaying this project all the time :bash:

so, they don't drive full speed because of safety system problem, right? I have no idea about it before... I found some Dutch suburban train pictures , if you allow me I'd like to share them with you here.

^^@kuvaci Please share, no problem.

http://www.demiryolportali.com/uploads/Dnence/images/2007-04-11_162156_Rotterdam_133.JPG

http://www.demiryolportali.com/uploads/Dnence/images/2007-04-11_162234_Rotterdam_134.JPG

http://www.demiryolportali.com/uploads/Dnence/images/2007-04-11_162424_Deventer_1.JPG

http://www.demiryolportali.com/uploads/Dnence/images/2007-04-11_162505_Deventer_2.JPG

demiryolportali-İlker Ertuğrul

^^ What station is this?

http://www.open.ou.nl/hon/RRFLang8.jpg

http://www.panoramanederland.nl/img/panorama_luchtfoto/panoramaluchtfoto_78.jpg

http://www.webcollie.nl/1/hsl.jpg

http://www.prorail.nl/SiteCollectionDocuments/Publiek/Doc/Img/Projecten/HSL-Zuid/HSL%20Brug%20Hollandsch%20Diep.jpg

http://www.verkeerenwaterstaat.nl/english/Images/OV%20-%20HSL-Zuid_tcm249-190386.jpg

http://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/hsl/Images/TP060706%20HSL%20Bundel%20HSL-A4_039_tcm51-64633.jpg

http://www.hslzuid.com/hsl/uk/Images/Doorgaand%20spoorviaduct%20Bleiswijk%20(TP040421-46)_494x241_tcm112-11426.jpg

http://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/hsl/Images/TP040929%20HSL%20BUNDELHSL-A16_019_tcm51-11311.JPG

http://www.prorail.nl/SiteCollectionDocuments/Publiek/Doc/Img/Projecten/asd_ut/LuchtfotoUtrechtboog.jpg

http://www.zuidoostlob.amsterdam.nl/bijlagen/overkapping%20station.jpg

http://www.prorail.nl/SiteCollectionDocuments/Publiek/Doc/Img/rondleiding/Bijlmer%20ArenA%20perron%20400px.jpg

http://www.bekahout.nl/resources/blocks/Bijlmer%20station%20nummer%202.jpg

http://www.zwolle.nl/cms/ecard_graphics.nsf/Lookup/Centraal_Station_Zwolle/$file/station_big.jpg

http://www.stedenbaan.nl/content/images/397.jpg

I like it :drool:

I like it :drool:

Don't quote pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:bash::ohno:

And yesterday it was announced that it will take another year for the HSL-Zuid to open, because AnsaldoBreda can't deliver the trains on time and because there are more problems with the safety system.

What's the source for that?

^^The Dutch NOS Journaal, www.nu.nl, the newspaper Trouw, to name a few.

Donderdag 20 November
De eerste treinen op de hogesnelheidslijn HSL Zuid laten opnieuw op zich wachten. Verkeersminister Camiel Eurlings deelde dat donderdag mee in de Tweede Kamer. De Kamer reageerde woedend, ook omdat de minister de exploitant HSA te hulp wil schieten om een faillissement af te wenden.

Thursday 20 November
Again the first trains of the HSL-South has a delay. Trafficminister Camiel Eurlings says this at the Parlement. The Parlementmembers are furious, because now Eurlings wants to finance the HSA (High Speed Alliance, the traincompagny) to affoid a bankrupcy.(The HSA has ordered the trains at AnsaldoBreda, because it was the cheapest deal)

(I tried to translate it as possible)

Source: http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/263217/Voorlopig-geen-treinen-op-HSL-Zuid.html

There are problems with the safetysytems and there are problems with the trainmanufacture AnsaldoBreda, the previous Dutch goverment hasn't have an agreement about the deliverytimes of the trains. So AnsaldoBreda doesn't get a penalty if there is a delay of delivery.

It is not the first time AnsaldoBreda has delayproblems.
From wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansaldobreda,_S.P.A.

Denmark
The company has recently become known for delaying the delivery of the new IC4 high-speed Diesel multiple units and refusing to acknowledge penalties claimed by the government because of these delays. The trains were supposed to be ready in 2003, but so far Ansaldobreda has only been able to deliver a single set for testing. May 21st 2008 the Danish customer DSB announced that they would cancel the entire 5 bill. DKK (€670mln) contract unless at least 14 sets are delivered and in service by May 2009. However 70% of the contract amount has already been paid to AnsaldoBreda.

The cheapest solution isn't always the best solution. It's horrible :bash:

Is car travel common in Netherlands?

^^Yes, most people use cars, resulting in lots of jams. Our motorways are completely stuck during rush hours. The government wants to encourage people to use the train more and more often.

[QUOTE=woutero;18686266]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/VIRM6.jpg/800px-VIRM6.jpg

what class is this?

You mean VIRM?

(V)IRM = Inter Regio Materiaal
(V)= Verlengd/ Extended

Yeah, those trains are pretty good and have a high capacity. A disadvantage is that it isn't very spacious.

Indead , expecially during rush-hours . The VIRM trains are than very crouded (is that the right spelling ?) and sometimes you can stand up for an hour during your journey home :bash:

Do they also downgrade the first class to second when a lot of people have to stand up in the train? It does take quite a lot of people before they do that here, and it all depends on the train conductor's decision whether or not it should be downgraded or not (who is often reluctant to doing that).

For such a train to be crowded, it probably takes a lot of people, so I assume you're talking about connections between major cities? Or should the interval at which the trains arrive improve? It's hard to see on pictures, but I think those carriages are relatively short compared to other double deck carriages, perhaps that's why they're not that spacious?

Greetings,
Glodenox

^^ They only downgrade the 1st class to 2nd in extreme situations, but it's not something that happens often. So it's not common during a normal rush hour even when the trains are crowded.

It's not so much the trains carriages that lack seat capacity, they have a normal length. It's more that the trains are often too short, just two 4 car set set instead of two 6 car set coupled for example. But now new more VIRM double deck sets are arriving, creating more capacity even though they are replacing older single deck trains.

But that's not all that being done. The frequencies for Intercity trains between the major cities have increased the last few years. But you have to remember that the Dutch railways are already one of the busiest in the world, so running more trains is not always an option. But now there's a plan to increase the frequency drastically to 6 or more IC trains every hour between all the big cities next to the also frequent stopping services. It just takes time to create the capacity by building more tracks especially at the major junctions that are already major bottlenecks. Also changes in the Automatic Train Protection and other systems that control the running of the trains have to be made to make trains run sooner after each other. All in all it should ease the crowding, but if the passenger number keep on increasing it will still be a problem that we should get used to.

Why Utrecht is the busiest? Isn't Amsterdam Centraal the largest station in the Netherlands?

What type of train is used in between Amsterdam CS and Schiphol?

Utrecht Centraal is the busiest station, Amsterdam Centraal 2nd.

Utrecht is an important national city (strong base), but there are 2 other things that make Utrecht Centraal bigger:
-Utrecht Centraal is the most important train hub in the Netherlands.
-Amsterdam has several important stations with long distance Dutch connections: 1. Amsterdam Centraal, 2. Amsterdam Sloterdijk, 3. Amsterdam Bijlmer/ArenA, 4. Amsterdam Zuid and 5. Amsterdam Amstel. Especially stations 2, 3 and 4 are growing rapidly. Utrecht has only 1 long important station (Utrecht Centraal).

What type of train is used in between Amsterdam CS and Schiphol?

4x hour VIRM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/VIRM6.jpg/800px-VIRM6.jpg

2x hour DD-AR/DDM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3013/2895119158_6aa89cccf7_o.jpg

1x hour IRCm (Benelux train)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/2236821230_d116979437_o.jpg

Thalys 5x day
http://www.blwnscale.com/blwphotos/ka-tgv-thalys.jpg

So at least 7 trains per hour to Amsterdam Centraal. To Amsterdam Zuid there are even running 10 trains per hour.

Do they also downgrade the first class to second when a lot of people have to stand up in the train? It does take quite a lot of people before they do that here, and it all depends on the train conductor's decision whether or not it should be downgraded or not (who is often reluctant to doing that).

For such a train to be crowded, it probably takes a lot of people, so I assume you're talking about connections between major cities? Or should the interval at which the trains arrive improve? It's hard to see on pictures, but I think those carriages are relatively short compared to other double deck carriages, perhaps that's why they're not that spacious?

Greetings,
Glodenox

I only had that once. On the 11th of August 1999 to be exact, when there was a solar eclipse. Since it was the best in the south of the country, a lot of people got on a train south, to Maastricht. From Utrecht CS on, there were no more seats available, so people had to stand up from Utrecht to Maastricht. After Eindhoven the conductor finally said that the first class would be downgraded. Not that it made much difference, but still he did it :)

Because of a reason unknown to me, sometimes the new VIRM trains service my station instead of the 'Sprinter'.

Yowza! These new VIRM's are smóóóth! The older VIRM's produce this eerie sound as if there's some variable transmission belt in use on those trains. However the new VIRM are extremely silent. One could easily play a game of chess on a Dutch train.

The NS Railways know a few flaws but overall, the network rocks! Like half of the major cities are being served at night already, and the other half is said to follow in due course.

The Hague, Haarlem, Amsterdam and Groningen all have beautiful stations. Nearly every station proves to be quite convenient to travellers. Though Rotterdam and Arnhem are in a bit of a mess, thanks to the crunch I believe. I love those Ducth train commuters too. People seem to be more in the know of delays and eagerly suggest other services once you get stuck.

You will find only a few terminal stations in Holland, perhaps that's why you can travel so smoothly around the country. Utrecht is very, very busy and offers excellent connections.

What I find odd though is that travelling on the ICE from (Frankfurt) Utrecht to Amsterdam isn't any quicker than on the regular train services. Is it because those ICE trains are too heavy and thus too slow? Odd really.

What I find odd though is that travelling on the ICE from (Frankfurt) Utrecht to Amsterdam isn't any quicker than on the regular train services. Is it because those ICE trains are too heavy and thus too slow? Odd really.
Even though the line is designed is designed for 200 km/h, the maximum speed is still 140 km/h. The ICE can not use it's higher maximum speed then the regular trains to go faster. Right now they are installing the ERTMS train protection system, that will increase the speed to 160 km/h. To reach the 200 km/h they also need to upgrade the power supply from 1500v to 25kV, but that's something for the future and no decision has been made yet to change it.

Thanks for the explanation, Momo!

I was under the impression that German highspeed trains are too fat as it were, compared to the lean French TGVs :lol:

Why don't the Dutch build their own highspeed trains. You've got such a wealth of engineering companies to choose from!

We're building the HSL-zuid, from Amsterdam to the Belgian border. It will take a few years before it's completely finished and working though. There are lots of problems with the trains and the safety system :ohno:

Were they trying to use custom everything for Zuid in terms of sets and safety or was it going to be off the shelf ETCS? That HSL would be critical and provide large benefits to Thalys

^^ They use of the shelf ETCS level 2, the problem is that the equipment in the trains is build by another company then the equipment of the infrastructure. It should work together since it's the European standard, but that's not the case. They all designed their own ETCS a little bit different then the other, so they won't work properly together.

And another thing about ETCS in Holland is that has problems when the trains have to switch to the ATB protection system that's in use on the regular lines. There's just to much interference between the two systems, but this has been solved by installing ETCS level 1 on the point were the train has to change from ETCS to ATB.

And even if it already would have worked the Thalys trains would still be running over the old lines. Because the SNCF only recently started installing the ETCS on the Thalys trains.

Could it be that ETCS is a big load of sh##?
Problems in Belgium, problems in Spain, problems in the Netherlands…

Every new technology has its growing pains, that doesn't mean it's bad. The standard itself is a very modern system, but apparently not well enough defined if there are interoperability problems...

It's good we're finally getting some sort of common signalisation system. It may take a while to get it going, but once it's done, it'll be great for international travel.

Greetings,
Glodenox

Hopefully the interoperability problems between the different manufactures will be resolved with the next level. The EU must set the standards even clearer, leaving no room for different interpretations.

I was under the impression that German highspeed trains are too fat as it were, compared to the lean French TGVs :lol:

You think this:

http://i36.tinypic.com/30280sg.jpg

looks "fatter" than this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/TGV-Duplex_Paris.jpg/800px-TGV-Duplex_Paris.jpg

Could it be that ETCS is a big load of sh##?
Problems in Belgium, problems in Spain, problems in the Netherlands…

It's being installed on the new HSL between Luik and Aachen, and ICE's should be riding on those tracks in April.

I also believe that ECTS is used on the Italian (Milano - Firenze -) Roma - Napoli line (not sure about the first part).

On the route Utrecht- The Haque the new commuter trains 'De Sprinter' are in service
http://www.reisthijs.nl/afb/02-2009/7335-SLT.jpg
http://www.reisthijs.nl/afb/02-2009/7337-SLT-SGM-VIRM.jpg
The new Sprinter and old Sprinter side by side next to a Interregiotrain

You think this looks "fatter" than this?
The French tend to think so. The pictures you show are vastly different. You show an ICE from the gate. Then you show a TGV with the wheels and the tracks included.

Kindly find better pictures to prove your point.

It was just a jest from my side.

http://www.reisthijs.nl/afb/02-2009/7337-SLT-SGM-VIRM.jpg
The new Sprinter and old Sprinter side by side next to a InterregiotrainI was walking near Dieren and those old Sprinter trains in the middle make a heck of a noise.

Do you have any suggestions how to derail them? Noisy bastards like those should not be running.

^^

Never had a feeling that they were noisy in comparison to other trains.

The French tend to think so. The pictures you show are vastly different. You show an ICE from the gate. Then you show a TGV with the wheels and the tracks included.

Kindly find better pictures to prove your point.

Here's a TGV from a similar viewpoint:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/TGV_%C3%A0_Gen%C3%A8ve-Cornavin.JPG/800px-TGV_%C3%A0_Gen%C3%A8ve-Cornavin.JPG

Don't mean to hijack the thread, was just surprised to hear that someone would think the Velaro looks more bloated than the TGV..

On the route Utrecht- The Haque the new commuter trains 'De Sprinter' are in service
http://www.reisthijs.nl/afb/02-2009/7337-SLT-SGM-VIRM.jpg
The new Sprinter and old Sprinter side by side next to a Interregiotrain

The right trains (VIRM) pass a lot by my apartment. They're a lot more quiet than the other trains here (ICRm + Mat'64) but they make a high squeaky sounds, I recognize it immediatly. I don't know why that is.

^^ From your description, that squeaky sound will be one of two things:
1) the engine which has a strange wail to it, or
2) friction in the passages between the coaches (it gets pretty bad sometimes).

The other day I was on a VIRM and one of the passage doors wouldn't close. The noise from inside the passage was so bad I decided to move to another coach.

I've been on those trains too (the double-decker yellow one on the right) and I remember I was surprised by how quiet it was, because it looks like quite a beast from the outside :D Although I also remember the distinct, high-pitched squeaking sound which as you write seemed to come from the friction between the cars..

I've been on those trains too (the double-decker yellow one on the right) and I remember I was surprised by how quiet it was, because it looks like quite a beast from the outside :D Although I also remember the distinct, high-pitched squeaking sound which as you write seemed to come from the friction between the cars..
The latest run of the VIRM cars has been perfected, even less of that noise.

PS

It is not my opinion (TGV/ICE) but French jingoism. The Germans are always portrayed as being fat ... I prefer the ICE's because of the amount of space (I'm tall).

Just so you know, those first and second busiest systems are Japan and probably Switzerland. Which is in Europe, but not in the EU, so I guess it's the busiest in the EU.

What's about Belgium?

So when is the expected opening date of HSL Zuid?

Wikipedia says sometime in 2009.

There is none.

After the last expected opening dates passed without success they decided to make it work before setting a new date.

- They need to make the ERTMS level 2 work, it does work but not if the equipment in the trains is from a different manufacturer then the trackside equipment.

- The ERTMS Level 1 at the connections with the existing network to make it work with the ATB system in place should be ready right now. I don't know if the trains are also adapted for this solution.

- The Thalys trains are being fitted with the ERTMS right now, but it should take some time to fit all trains.

- I don't know what the current status is of the temporary trains with the Bombardier locomotives. I don't think they are certified to run with ERTMS in the Netherlands yet, this makes the temporary services still not possible.

- AnsaldoBreda tries hard to transport the V250 set from the Czech Republic to the Netherlands. It should have arrived here a few weeks ago, but because of some problems it scheduled to be transported this week. But since they said the same thing the last two weeks, I have my doubts if they will manage it this time.

And when those trains are here, it's first only for more tests. And if those are successful they can think about getting the trains certified to run in the Netherlands and in Belgium. And only when that happens they can start running trains with them over the HSL Zuid, and then only when the ERTMS problems are also fixed.

In other words, it could take a while.

What a crap.
It was ready before the french TGV-East, but this one is already operationnaly running since almost 2 years!
They just wanted to save a few money by not installing a working communication solution (like the TVM 430).
On the TGV East, they installed both!
So stupid :-(

That's it. In Germany they installed LZB on the new lines, because they know it works. None needs this crap called ETCS.

Hebben jullie foto's van de Beneluxtrein?
En worden die treinen na in dienst stelling van de HSL verkocht of krijgen ze een tweede leven?

^^ Since this is the international section, we have to write in English.

After the HSL is completely in service the class 11.8 locomotives will probably be used by the Belgium railways for freight trains. The driving trailers are likely to be scraped because they didn't get a major overhaul together with the rest of the coaches. The overhauled coaches will used in Dutch national services until all ICR coaches will be replaced in due time.

But until then they should first be used on the temporary shuttle services on the HSL and there are also voices in the Dutch politics that don't want to get rid of the Benelux service as a cheaper alternative for the HSL. But I doubt that will happen, since it will need some investments in new rolling stock. Maybe a new international operator will start competing under the new European competition rules from 2010.

anyway, pictures.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3616/3430996828_cdeccdd06f_o.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wessele/3430996828/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3659/3414247061_5fed20d27c_o.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulvanduin/3414247061/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3555/3414080791_60a0c99928_o.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/denniskoster/3414080791/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3649/3334775211_f409bc068d_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/groen47/3334775211/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3344/3263013434_953002fc15_o.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/denniskoster/3263013434/

On the route Utrecht- The Haque the new commuter trains 'De Sprinter' are in service
http://www.reisthijs.nl/afb/02-2009/7335-SLT.jpg
http://www.reisthijs.nl/afb/02-2009/7337-SLT-SGM-VIRM.jpg
The new Sprinter and old Sprinter side by side next to a Interregiotrain

I do like the new colours , far better than that boring yellow

That colour scheme has been used for ages.

The yellow color is in use since the middle sixties with the introduction of Mat '64 (Plan V). The old color was green: WIKI (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_V).

In 1970, the dutch railways introduce Spoorslag 70 (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoorslag_%2770),, a complete renewal of the trainnetwork, and introduce Intercity-services. These trains got the new blue-yellow colors: PIC (these trains were replaced by the IRM-double deckers and ICM-4 Koplopers between the middle 80-s and middle 90-s) (http://www.netherlandsrailways.co.uk/Images/mat54%20@%20Zwolle.jpg)

About the sound of the VIRM-double deckers: In the older trains from middle 90-s this WAS a typical sound (now fixed): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S4YDCe11O8

The yellow color is in use since the middle sixties with the introduction of Mat '64 (Plan V). The old color was green: WIKI (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_V).

Green is fantastic.

What we should do is give each major connection a different color, like a subway system. The Intercity Amsterdam-Vlissingen could be red, the Intercity Rotterdam-Groningen could be blue. That sort of thing. I would like that!

About the sound of the VIRM-double deckers: In the older trains from middle 90-s this WAS a typical sound (now fixed): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S4YDCe11O8

That's the one alright, that Satanic wail.

The yellow color is in use since the middle sixties with the introduction of Mat '64 (Plan V). The old color was green: WIKI (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_V).
To be more precise, the previous colors before the yellow was introduced in 1968:

EMUs: green
DMUs: red
coaches and locomotives: dark blue

Two pics of CTA signs.

At Amsterdam Central Station

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3259/3292977117_db491668d1_b.jpg

At Utrecht Central Station

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3602/3293804722_3de036b2fe_b.jpg

Pics made by me on the 15th of February, this year.

You can take the train to Moscow from the Netherlands?

Or is that a different city listed on those signs?

Regardless, there should be a transcontinental high speed line that connects Amsterdam and Moscow via Berlin, Warsaw, and Minsk.

You can take the train to Moscow from the Netherlands?

Yes. The Interliner Amsterdam-Moscow. They might have renamed it to Intercity or something, they like to change the name every once in a while.

EDIT: just googled it, it's the EuroNightTrain now :D
http://www.treinreiziger.nl/internationaal_treinnieuws.php?naam=Nachttrein%20Amsterdam%20-%20Moskou%20(EuroNight)

Regardless, there should be a transcontinental high speed line that connects Amsterdam and Moscow via Berlin, Warsaw, and Minsk.

Under construction :)

You can take the train to Moscow from the Netherlands?



It runs once a day and it takes 40 hours to get there. The train I was in consists of 15 wagons, of which 5 head to Prague (I went to Prague), 4 to Warsw, 4 to Copenhagen, one to Minsk and one to Moscow. Prague only takes 15 hours though :D

Moskwa is really old spelling, right? I thought it would be either "Moscow, Moskou or Moskva".

You think this:

[IMG]http://i36.tinypic.com/30280sg.jpg[_/IMG]

looks "fatter" than this?

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/TGV-Duplex_Paris.jpg/800px-TGV-Duplex_Paris.jpg[_/IMG]


Not quite that ...


I think that he means that THIS:


http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/nl/electric/emu/ICE/Amsterdam/Amsterdam_Station_25-05-2006_58.jpg


Looks fatter than THIS:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/electric/emu/TGV/Thalys/PBA/Amsterdam/Thalys112PBA.jpg

And indeed the apearance of the ICE3 seems rather fat when compared to the boxy TGV's. :dunno:

Moskwa is really old spelling, right? I thought it would be either "Moscow, Moskou or Moskva".

Probably, but I think they chose to do "Moskwa" because AFAIK that's the way it's pronounced.

it is pronounced like Moskwa if you read it in German, I do not know about Dutch...

AFAIK the 'w' in Russian is pronounced as a 'v'. Like you say "vladivostok", but "wladiwostok" is written.

The "w" is the German way to write the Cyrillic B (в), the English way (and also the Dutch way) is V. So it's indeed a bit strange that they chose to go with the w, especially since in German it's written as Moskau.

Maybe they went for the Polish way to write it, then it's 100% right.

Work is progessing well on the 50km 200km/h €1b Hanzelijn between Zwolle and Lelystad. Some updates:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Hanzelijn.PNG/800px-Hanzelijn.PNG
source (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Hanzelijn.PNG)


IJsselspoorbrug Zwolle
A new, higher, bridge will replace the current one from 1864, removing one of the main obstacles for shipping on the IJssel:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Ijsselbrugzwol.JPG/800px-Ijsselbrugzwol.JPG
source (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Ijsselbrugzwol.JPG)

http://www.hanzelijn-hattem.nl/gfx/ijsselbrug_01.jpg
source (http://www.hanzelijn-hattem.nl/trace/)

http://www.hanzelijn-hattem.nl/fotomap/2009-05-28/06.jpg
source (http://www.hanzelijn-hattem.nl/)

Unearthing the inevitable WWII left-overs near the new bridge last autumn:
http://www.destentor.nl/multimedia/archive/00883/bommen_883560b.JPG
source (http://www.destentor.nl/regio/zwolle/3720182/Bommen-onder-brug-Hanzelijn.ece)


Construction of Kampen Zuid started 75 years after the closure of the last station with that name back in 1934:
http://www.hanzelijn-hattem.nl/gfx/hanzelijnkampen.jpg
source (http://www.hanzelijn-hattem.nl/)

http://www.refdag.nl/media/foto/2009/76421-a.jpg
source (http://www.refdag.nl/)


Visitors had the oppurtunity to walk through the tubes of the 790m Drontermeertunnel yesterday:
http://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/images/Tunnel_Drontermeer_tcm174-177262.jpg
source (http://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/)

http://www.hanzelijn-hattem.nl/fotomap/2009-06-06/11.jpg
source (http://www.hanzelijn-hattem.nl/foto/309)


Dronten:
http://www.stationsweb.com/dronten/afb2.jpg
source (http://www.stationsweb.com/station.asp?station=dronten)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Station_Dronten_1.JPG/800px-Station_Dronten_1.JPG
source (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_Dronten)


Expansion to 4 platforms underway in Lelystad:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7350/200903170328.jpg
source (http://www.dejongluchtfotografie.nl/gallery/2009/03/Hanzelijn/index.html)

Nice update. I know that guy from hanzelijn-hattem.nl, he has been in newspapers recently.

Sweet, more high speed rail for the Netherlands.:cheers:

So will this line allow people from Zwolle to get to Amsterdam via rail?

^^ Is the rail line high speed, or just regular rail?

I find it amusing when I see/hear Dutch people bitching about their railways. I'd kill for that level of infrastructure...

Sweet, more high speed rail for the Netherlands.:cheers:

It's regular rail I think

So will this line allow people from Zwolle to get to Amsterdam via rail?

They already can, but this line will shorten their journey times. Here's a map of the current Dutch railway network:

http://www.johnhuizer.nl/nskaart.gif

This line is being constructed between "Lelystad Centrum" and "Kampen" (to the Northeast of Amsterdam).


I find it amusing when I see/hear Dutch people bitching about their railways. I'd kill for that level of infrastructure...

Bear in mind we're Europe's most densely populated nation (not counting microstates like Monaco) but we don't have the continent's best railway network. Not even close. So there's some bitching to be done still :D

So will this line allow people from Zwolle to get to Amsterdam via rail?

It's already possible via Amersfoort, but the new line will relieve the Zwolle - Amersfoort line, and shorten travel times to Amsterdam. It was a missing link in the Dutch railway net. The area the new line runs through is mostly empty, but the IJssel river and the Lake Dronten crossings (bridge and tunnel respectively) require some expensive structures, so the line is still relatively expensive.

I find it amusing when I see/hear Dutch people bitching about their railways. I'd kill for that level of infrastructure...

The network is pretty good, and frequencies are high, but the network is often loaded to capacity due to aged safety systems, and problems at important stations can have effect throughout a lot of the network for most of the day. They should've 4-tracked more railway lines, but chose presitiguous megaprojects instead (Betuweroute, HSL-South).

^^ Is the rail line high speed, or just regular rail?Just "regulair" rail. Though speeds of 160km/u or 200km/u should be possible: that's not very regular in the Netherlands.


IJsselspoorbrug Zwolle
A new, higher, bridge will replace the current one from 1864, removing one of the main obstacles for shipping on the IJssel:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Ijsselbrugzwol.JPG/800px-Ijsselbrugzwol.JPG
source (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Ijsselbrugzwol.JPG)It's not that old actually: the original bridge was replaced by this one in the 1930's.

The network is pretty good, and frequencies are high, but the network is often loaded to capacity due to aged safety systems, and problems at important stations can have effect throughout a lot of the network for most of the day. They should've 4-tracked more railway lines, but chose presitiguous megaprojects instead (Betuweroute, HSL-South).

Is HSL-South the same as HSL-Zuid? Sorry I don't know any Dutch.

Yes, Zuid is Dutch for South.

Sorry I don't know any Dutch.

Few people do, don't sweat it. :)

A couple of thoughts on Dutch railway system

I'm living in Tilburg since June, and here are some of my thoughts on major issues of the system, with questions I have about them:

(1) Sometimes I keep thinking whether Netherlands have a rail system or a national metro system. You cannot find, easily, information about arriving trains or arriving times of your train unless you ask an NS employee or check the Internet. There are no such thing like "train service numbers" to make identification easier. Is there any plan to improve the station information system?

(2) 1st class offer little more comfort than 2nd class, but 2nd class costs only 60% of 1st class prices. Newer trains have 6-seat compartments on 1st class, and individual electric socks. Only real benefit seems to be guaranteed seat in peak-times. Anyway, I really don't like newer trains where most seats in 2nd classe are placed in pairs facing each other. I prefer "bus"-like seat where I face the back of other sit, not a stranger face. Am I the only one that dislikes these new double-decker trains with seats facing each other in opposite pairs?

(3) They are putting gates or checkpoints for the OV-Chipkaart in every station. It seems a very good idea do replace honor system with printes tickets by RFID cards. Any estimate date to start allowing use of the Transportation Card to pay for NS fares?

(4) Some trains that split during the journey (IC to Leewarden/Groningen or IC to Maastrich/Heerlem) are not well identified from inside. Older double decker trains had an electronic display in each floor/car, newer ones don't. Are there any plans to include an on-board electronic train announcement system? (Sometimes is really hard to understand what the conductor is saying).

(5) Are there any plans to create "super direct" routes on longer routes that don't stop as much as the Intercity? I've travelled Tilburg-Groningen route a dozen times, and there's no option that takes less than 1 connection (that's fine) and at least 10 stops (that's not fine) using only IC services for a route that has no more than 280 km.

(6) Are there any plans to electrify the Nijmegen-Venlo-Roermond route? What about Syntus routes in easter Netherlands? I think is so outdted to have those lines still running on diesel...

A couple of thoughts on Dutch railway system

I'm living in Tilburg since June, and here are some of my thoughts on major issues of the system, with questions I have about them:

(1) Sometimes I keep thinking whether Netherlands have a rail system or a national metro system. You cannot find, easily, information about arriving trains or arriving times of your train unless you ask an NS employee or check the Internet. There are no such thing like "train service numbers" to make identification easier. Is there any plan to improve the station information system?

Arrival times are a problem, you're right. When I pick someone up, I have to ask them what time they got on the train so I can figure out what time it should arrive according to ns.nl

The train services used to carry their own numbers a few years ago, as I recall, but they fell into disuse and later ceased to exist altogether. As far as I know, there are no plans to reinstate them or introduce a similar system.

It's funny you should mention national metro system, because that is exactly what NS has in mind when it considers its future. In the next few years, trains in the Randstad will run every 10 or sometimes even 5 minutes. You'll be seeing more of that throughout the entire country as the infrastructure and rolling stock are adapted accordingly.

(2) 1st class offer little more comfort than 2nd class, but 2nd class costs only 60% of 1st class prices. Newer trains have 6-seat compartments on 1st class, and individual electric socks. Only real benefit seems to be guaranteed seat in peak-times. Anyway, I really don't like newer trains where most seats in 2nd classe are placed in pairs facing each other. I prefer "bus"-like seat where I face the back of other sit, not a stranger face. Am I the only one that dislikes these new double-decker trains with seats facing each other in opposite pairs?

You spotted all the differences between 1st and 2nd class. That's it, there isn't more to it.

As for seating arrangements - NS has struggled to come up with a consistent policy. A few years ago they argued that double deckers should have face-to-face arrangements below and individual rows upstairs. When they ordered newer trains, the policy was changed. I have no idea what the current policy is. It's a major flaw in the organizational structures of the company.

(3) They are putting gates or checkpoints for the OV-Chipkaart in every station. It seems a very good idea do replace honor system with printes tickets by RFID cards. Any estimate date to start allowing use of the Transportation Card to pay for NS fares?

People traveling on subscriptions can already use it (since december 1st I believe). It will be introduced in stages for every traveler through 2010 if all goes to plan.

(4) Some trains that split during the journey (IC to Leewarden/Groningen or IC to Maastrich/Heerlem) are not well identified from inside. Older double decker trains had an electronic display in each floor/car, newer ones don't. Are there any plans to include an on-board electronic train announcement system? (Sometimes is really hard to understand what the conductor is saying).

Everyone I know is annoyed by the disappearance of the inside displays in the new double deckers. It's a strange decision. There are, sadly, no plans to bring it back.
Other types of trains such as the Sprinter do have detailed displays (showing every station with its own arrival time) and an electronic announcer. I don't know if the voice-over is gonna be introduced on other trains as well.

(5) Are there any plans to create "super direct" routes on longer routes that don't stop as much as the Intercity? I've travelled Tilburg-Groningen route a dozen times, and there's no option that takes less than 1 connection (that's fine) and at least 10 stops (that's not fine) using only IC services for a route that has no more than 280 km.

No. Frequent stops is the new black. Metro system etc.

(6) Are there any plans to electrify the Nijmegen-Venlo-Roermond route? What about Syntus routes in easter Netherlands? I think is so outdted to have those lines still running on diesel...

I don't know, you'd have to contact Prorail for that.

A couple of thoughts on Dutch railway system
(1) Sometimes I keep thinking whether Netherlands have a rail system or a national metro system. You cannot find, easily, information about arriving trains or arriving times of your train unless you ask an NS employee or check the Internet. There are no such thing like "train service numbers" to make identification easier. Is there any plan to improve the station information system?

The train stations I use have a table that shows all the arriving trains. Their origin and arrivaltime. Oh I guess you mean when you are inside the train. In that case there you would indeed have to ask a "conducteur". But new trains such as the ICMm has fittings for a new information system that will give information about the stations and times. When the DDAR is upgraded for intercity use it will also use that system. They will also solve the problem you mentioned in question 4.


(2) 1st class offer little more comfort than 2nd class, but 2nd class costs only 60% of 1st class prices. Newer trains have 6-seat compartments on 1st class, and individual electric socks. Only real benefit seems to be guaranteed seat in peak-times. Anyway, I really don't like newer trains where most seats in 2nd classe are placed in pairs facing each other. I prefer "bus"-like seat where I face the back of other sit, not a stranger face. Am I the only one that dislikes these new double-decker trains with seats facing each other in opposite pairs?


I prefer having the seats in a vis à vis setting, and as far as I know most trains have less of them in recent times. So I do not know if you are the only one who dislikes those trains but I am not one of them ;)

The train stations I use have a table that shows all the arriving trains. Their origin and arrivaltime.

I think I've managed to never ever see those :D

Oh I guess you mean when you are inside the train. In that case there you would indeed have to ask a "conducteur". But new trains such as the ICMm has fittings for a new information system that will give information about the stations and times. When the DDAR is upgraded for intercity use it will also use that system. They will also solve the problem you mentioned in question 4.

So the Sprinter, the ICMm and the DDAR will use that system, that's good, but what about VIRM?

I prefer having the seats in a vis à vis setting, and as far as I know most trains have less of them in recent times. So I do not know if you are the only one who dislikes those trains but I am not one of them ;)

It's a personal thing. But NS could at least strive to implement a single policy. As is stands, nobody knows what's what.

^^
I read this week that NS has plans to create a difference between quiet and social zones in their double decker trains.

Upstairs would be the quiet zone, where the seats are arranged like buses, and people are supposed to be quiet, read or work.

Downstairs would become the social zone, with seats arranged vis-a-vis (four seats), and lounge benches.

So in the future you will have a choice.

Source:
http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/357939/Beneden-is-het-gezellig.html

That would be a good idea, there are "quiet" cars today, but I don't think people care about them.

The DDAR trains will be refurbished and will be renamed in Double dekker Zone.
(DDZ for short)
It will be named zone because of the relax deck on the first floor and silence deck on the second floor.
First class first floor now :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/DD-AR_interieur_Eerste_klas.jpg

Second class second floor now :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Interieur_DD-AR_2e_klas_boven.jpg

Source : wikipedia

The train after refurbishing :
First floor first class with the lounge banks :
http://www.puurruimte.nl/wp-content/plugins/fresh-page/files_flutter/1255278538DDAR_1e-klasLounge.jpg

Second floor first class :
http://www.puurruimte.nl/wp-content/plugins/fresh-page/files_flutter/1255277555DDAR_marktonderzoek-007.jpg

First floor second class :
http://www.puurruimte.nl/wp-content/plugins/fresh-page/files_flutter/1255277623DDAR_2e-klas-lounge.jpg

First floor first class and second class in the background :
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1763/dscf1275mh4.jpg

And also the second floor :
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8665/dscf1273aq7.jpg

Toilet:
http://www.puurruimte.nl/wp-content/plugins/fresh-page/files_flutter/1255286829DDAR_toiletmudule_concept_3.jpg

Entrance train :
http://www.puurruimte.nl/wp-content/plugins/fresh-page/files_flutter/1255287031DDAR_toiletmudule_concept_e.jpg

Source : www.puurruimte.nl

The first proto train will be finished at the end of 2010 and is already in progress : http://www.flickr.com/photos/23128087@N04/3929514137/in/set-72157622399969052/ :banana:
If the proto train is finished and succeeded for some tests the whole DDAR fleet will be refurbished in the begining of 2011 and will be finished around 2013.
The project will be done by nedtrain who also did the refurbishing of the ICMm (koploper) trains.

And here is some more info about the project : http://www.nsprocurement.nl/files/DDARm.Info-Modernization.080901.ppt

Cool, thanks for posting. Do you know if are they going to put wireless service in the trains?

I also hope they change those filthy bathrooms whic throws sewage... straight into the tracks.

Cool, thanks for posting. Do you know if are they going to put wireless service in the trains?

I also hope they change those filthy bathrooms whic throws sewage... straight into the tracks.

I think they will get new bioreactors like het new VIRM trains but i am not shure about it.
Al the trains of the NS fleet will have wireless internet.
NS signed an agreement with T mobile and the first trains will be equiped with it in march 2010 :banana:

^^ Only the Intercity trains.

I have another question: I realized Dutch rail network has some key nods out of Randstad (Zwolle and Eindhoven, for instance), yet there are no express services linkin these places with non-stop services to cities in The Randstad. For instance: from Zwolle there area a lot of lines branching north and east, as there are other lines in Eindhoven. So why don't NS set up some direct services like Rotterdam-Zwolle, Amsterdam-Eidnhoven etc. non-stop services, to speed up connections from the outer provinces to the Randstad?

Even within the Randstad, I still cannot understand why don't they have direct Intercity services from Rotterdam to Amsterdam that don't call at Den Haag HS (except for Fyra, which was almost empty 4 times I used it), or Utrecht-Den Haag Centraal services that don't call at Gouda.

Direct trains are not really practical on the Dutch railways, there are just too many cities of reasonable size and the rail network is already too busy and complex to make these kind of trains go faster then the current trains.

And the number of people that actually travel from Amsterdam to Eindhoven or Rotterdam - Zwolle is actually not high enough for 2 non stop trains per hour. Any lower frequency will seriously harm is passenger numbers (see Fyra). On the other hand Rotterdam - Utrecht needs 4 ICs per hour during rush hour to have enough capacity and that won't change with direct trains to the East. And then you need 3, because Zwolle has one, why can't Enschede and Arnhem have two. At Gouda these trains will have to share the tracks with the 4 ICs from Den Haag to Utrecht, at Woerden the 2 IC per hour will also join the tracks. And then you don't even look at the stopping services and the freight trains that also have a regular timetable on this route. Adding any more trains would just mean more delays and make it much more complex then needed.

This is also the reason why all the trains stop at Gouda, back in the 1980s there where 2 ICs per hour from Rotterdam to Utrecht, only stopping at Rdam Alexander. And also 2 ICs per hour from Den Haag to Utrecht with 1 stop per hour in Gouda. These trains used to be coupled in Utrecht to continue together to Zwolle-Groningen/Leeuwarden or Enschede.

In the 1990s a new fast train was added to the route, with an hourly service from Rotterdam to Utrecht that stopped also at Gouda and Woerden and continued to Arnhem. On the other half hour the train would start at Den Haag, in order to have an 1/2 hour frequency between Gouda and Utrecht. This service was even increased to a full 1/2 hour between both Rotterdam and Den Haag and Utrecht with the trains coupled together at Gouda.

But even with this train the Rotterdam - Utrecht route became to busy during rush hours. Especially because these trains where always coupled at some point on the route there could only use half trains between Rotterdam and Utrecht. In order to use the full capacity they have stopped coupling the trains altogether and created 4 IC trains per hour from Rotterdam to Utecht that continue to Leeuwarden (1x), Deventer (2x) or Enschede (1x).

As a result there are now 8 IC trains between Gouda and Utrecht, if they would all be non-stop there wouldn't be room for a direct fast train between those two cities any more. Half of them could easily pass Gouda, but for the timetable planners it would too difficult, especially in Utrecht where 6 of those ICs have to change the driving direction of the train to go to Amersfoort. That takes time and uses more capacity in the station then a regular stop. Gouda is lucky in this way since it has one of the best connection with Utrecht out of all the cities in the Randstad.


Direct services would be good for the people living in the cities in the North East and South, but it's just not possible in the already too busy timetable in the Randstad. Plus long distance commuting isn't something that should be encouraged in a country with a such a high population density as Holland, the infrastructure is already used more then it can handle. People should actually be encouraged to live close to their work, so they don't have to take the train or car to commute.

People should actually be encouraged to live close to their work, so they don't have to take the train or car to commute.

Thanks Momo1435, you gave me interesting and useful information about the tracks use in the Randstad. It is by no means a calm track like Syntus services near Hegelo.

In regard of the latter, I think it is not common to read that people should stop taking the train to commute. I know the country is fairly dense, and economic activities are quite spread around. For sure, single young professional can choose to live near their workplace, but what about families where the man works in Amsterdam the woman in Rotterdam, and their child studies at a Tech University in Utrecht, for instance?

Just hanging on the subject, I think is quite unreasonable to expect families to be able to confine their lives to just one city these days, if they have higher-profile careers. I mean, it should be easier to relocate if one works as a cashier and the other as a salesperson at a department store; situation is different one is an specialist doctor and the other an electrical engineer.

It's about choices.

But if we really wan't to do something about the capacity problems in our trains or for more people even more importantly, solve the congestion problem on our roads then we cannot just depend only on solutions like more trains or more roads.

For a real solution of those problems we need to take a different look on our mobility together with how we organize and design our cities. Discouraging long distance commuting even if it's by train is one of the things we should not be afraid of to discuss as possible solution. We have to keep all options open if we really want to ease the congestion and to make our public transport a better option for more people to use on a daily basis. Right now everybody has an excuse ready why they shouldn't change their own mobility behaviour, even when they always complain about the traffic jams or standing in the train. And as a result we will end up with a country that's completely built-up country with only high-ways and suburban neighbourhoods, that's not something to look forward to.

How much space do Dutch railways and freeways take up from the whole land territory? 1% maybe?

Usually when you put facts on the ground you find out urbanization and "space eaten" by airports, tracks and highways are far less than common sense would say - at least that what happens in controlled experiments done in US: people think that farmland is running out fast, when it indeed is not -.

Anyway, I don't think increased train mobility is a bad thing for a dense country. Unless you want to isolate further provinces and depopulate them, then turning the Randstad cities into Manhatan-like high-rises skyline, rail and road transportation demands are going at most to stabilize.

I don't think couples would be willing to give up in dual careers, best educational choices for their children etc. for the sake of saving some pristine farmland. These days, is easy to blame the car etc. (especially because anti-car measures usually pamper the affected people with nice streets, or people think that congestion would go down because others will stop driving so he/she will have more room to drive). However, I don't think any politician would advance and agenda like "choose the jobs available in your cities, not the trains that take you from your cities to the jobs you want to".

It's quite totalitarian, indeed, this approach (just reflecting, I'm not thinking you said that).

I do not live in the Randstad but I do not see why the family situation you proposed would not be possible. What about the current train system would not allow two of them to commute to their work?

It would allow. I gave that example to counterargument Momo1425's suggestion that people should commute less than today and live closer to worlplaces. Today it is fairly feasible this kind of arrangement.

^^ I don't say they should, I say that people should be encouraged.

If all people only start to make excuses before they actually think about where they live and how they have to commute we will never solve the congestion problems. The government can spend billions on new (rail)roads, but that won't help if people aren't willing to change their own behaviour.

Do you know when will be possible to use the NS OV-Chipkaart as a mean of payment in NS trains?

^^
That's already possible since Oktober 2009, but only with an anonymous card. From this month people with a NS Voordeelurenkaart can also use their personal OV-Chipkaart with 40% discount after 9:00.

Right now it's still only possible to use it "op slado" as a pre paid card, as regular check in - check out system that calculates the price at the end. But later it will also be possible to buy a train ticket onto your card at the ticket machine, just like the old system but then without the paper ticket.

Hum, an what about first class fares? As I see impractical to create first-class check-in gates, are they going to put something like a second check-in machine inside the cars so people can pay appropriate fares when travelling first class?

You have to get a first class OV Chipkaart to travel first class, you have to chose the class when you activate your card on the special website (at least for the Voordeelurenkaart users). But that means you can only travel 1st or 2nd class with a card, if you want to use the other class you have to buy a paper ticket right now or in the future buy the ticket onto your chip card.

Say, you bought a ticket from Amsterdam to Utrecht and you've loaded in on your OV-chipkaart. You check in at Amsterdam and check out at Utrecht. Does "the system" than automatically know you wanted to use that ticket and so removes it?

I also have a question about international travel. I sometimes to go Gronau (Germany) from Enschede (NL). How does this work with the Studenten OV-chipkaart? I have a paper ticket from the border to Gronau at the moment, and I can travel in NL for free with my Studenten OV-kaart. With the OV-chipkaart, I have to check in on the German platform at Enschede station. When I haven't checked out within a certain period of time, I'm automatically checked out at the border. How does this work on the way back? It's not possible to be checked in automatically, so how does this work?

OV-Chipkaart will not wokr in international trains. In your case (OV-Studentenkaart), I guess you'll have to hop off at the first Dutch station, check-in, and continue to travel.

That seems quite vague to me. I'm automatically checked out on my way to Germany, I'm quite sure about that. I just wonder how it works on the way back.

In your case isn't really a problem, you don't have to pay 10 or 20 Euro when you forget to check out. And if you are not checked in on your way back it should also not be a big deal, the DB or PEG conductors won't have the equipment to read an OV-chipkaart anyway.

Rotterdamse railway in the port, by of it much are, this is the Betuwe-lijn:

http://home.student.utwente.nl/m.i.n.rorik/foto/trein/temp/48738Vaanplein.JPG

Well, good news, the (demissionary) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demissionary_cabinet) Dutch cabinet has announced a €4.5 billion rail project. The project, called 'Program for High-frequency Rail transport (PHS)', will allow for 'timetableless travel' in and between the Randstad and a few large cities outside of it.
In short this means the government will invest in selected train routes (to be precise: Schiphol Airport-Utrecht-Arnhem/Nijmegen, Alkmaar-Amsterdam-Utrecht-Eindhoven, Den Haag-Rotterdam-Eindhoven) to allow 12 trains per hour in each direction (6 intercity trains and 6 local trains) on 10 minute intervals (ie. 10 minutes between 2 intercities or 2 local trains, or 5 minutes between an intercity and local). The similar OV-SAAL project (between Schiphol Airport-Amsterdam-Almere-Lelystad) is also part of this project.

Good news!

6 intercity's per hour per direction on my frequent used routes, and at least 4 local trains per hour. Never wait any longer than a few minutes! :)

Wouldn't it be better to invest such money in building (or at least start building) a high-speed link on the axis Schiphol-Utrecht-Eindhoven and Utrecht-Arnhem? It takes far too long to reach Amsterdam from the southern cities of Maastricht and Heerlen, due to lack of a true high-speed rail alternative.

I actually think it is good that they did not invest that money in a prestige project like another HSL. Many more people benefit from improving the regular train service. Besides the distances for Utrecht-Arnhem at 60km and 80 km for Utrecht-Eindhoven are way to short for HSR. It would be better to concentrate on improving the quality of the existing tracks, there are a lot of plans to slowly increase the speeds on the dutch networks. Amsterdam-Utrecht is now suitable for speeds of 200km/u and this will later extent to arnhem, the only thing holding this back is the outdated security systems.

^^ In that case NS should, at least, put a third level of service in place (besides Stoptrein and Intercity), one that would connect more distant cities with key hubs non-stop. For instance, a Maastricht-Utrecht-Amsterdam service without any other stop, or Groningen-Zwolle-Schiphol.

How many people would use such a service, I do not think it would be viable. Just look at the fyra, a direct link between Amsterdam and Rotterdam which is looking tot become a big failure. But I agree that that some intercity trains stop at to many cities. I think they should try to keep the intercity a real intercity.

How many people would use such a service, I do not think it would be viable. Just look at the fyra, a direct link between Amsterdam and Rotterdam which is looking tot become a big failure. But I agree that that some intercity trains stop at to many cities. I think they should try to keep the intercity a real intercity.

Fyra doesn't have YET that much ridership because:

1. There is only a short, not that fast (160 km/h) and overpriced services on regular carriages from Rotterdam to Amsterdam. Once Fyra starts running from Breda to Amsterdam with full speed, ridership will increase.

2. The supplement is too pricey.

3. There is just 18 services/day.

4. Many people don't know the service yet.

^^ In that case NS should, at least, put a third level of service in place (besides Stoptrein and Intercity), one that would connect more distant cities with key hubs non-stop. For instance, a Maastricht-Utrecht-Amsterdam service without any other stop, or Groningen-Zwolle-Schiphol.

Such a service would not be that much faster than the current IC. It would have a lot less customers though. There really isn't that much point for such a train.

Having more different stopping patterns also decreases the efficiency with which you can use your network. If you want to run trains every 10 minutes at regular intervals it helps a lot if they all stop at the same places.

Fyra doesn't have YET that much ridership because:


2. The supplement is too pricey.

3. There is just 18 services/day.


Indeed. They should just integrate the whole service in the existing IC network. Have the normal Amsterdam - Rotterdam (and beyond) IC's travel on the line, and the trains will be full.

Such a service would not be that much faster than the current IC. It would have a lot less customers though. There really isn't that much point for such a train.

Having more different stopping patterns also decreases the efficiency with which you can use your network. If you want to run trains every 10 minutes at regular intervals it helps a lot if they all stop at the same places.

Just put ETCS 2 or 3 in place and that can be done. Moreover, how can you state that there is no demand for such services. I know you are timetable-obsessed, which is ok, but from then to say that such trains would have far less costumers, it is an exaggeration, I'd say.

Usually long-distance express train has far less costumers per km than regional services. In the case of Netherlands, without any speed upgrading of the network, it would be possible to run a non-stop train from Sittard (in Limburg) to Amsterdam in less than 1h30, if it were non-stop. Today services take 2h10.

Ultimately every long-distance service has to preempt regional operations, but that is how is should be. Just drop the damn obsession with intervals, and make regional services adapt to long-distance trains that would be given preference.

Indeed. They should just integrate the whole service in the existing IC network. Have the normal Amsterdam - Rotterdam (and beyond) IC's travel on the line, and the trains will be full.

There is no rolling stock to cope with such demand, unless you "degrade" the railway to normal 160 km/h in a permanent basis (like they are doing temporarily while the Fyra stock is not delivered), but that would just jeopardize the very reason by which the project was done, and would slow down Thalys services too.

They need to charge a supplement, but a smaller one.

Usually long-distance express train has far less costumers per km than regional services. In the case of Netherlands, without any speed upgrading of the network, it would be possible to run a non-stop train from Sittard (in Limburg) to Amsterdam in less than 1h30, if it were non-stop. Today services take 2h10.


This could only be done if there were no other trains on the line. A direct Sittard - Amsterdam service would have to run in addition to existing services with more stops. This would mean that this train would have to overtake the other train, which needs extra infrastructure.
If you could fill such a train every hour than it becomes justifiable to invest in the needed infrastructure, but I doubt you could do that.


Ultimately every long-distance service has to preempt regional operations, but that is how is should be. Just drop the damn obsession with intervals, and make regional services adapt to long-distance trains that would be given preference.

Having regional trains adapt to the long distance trains is exactly what NS is doing. It's what everyone is doing, except maybe Trenitalia.

The point is however that many long distance trains need the intermediate stops in order to be profitable. Combine that with the simple fact that having all trains adhere to the same stopping pattern makes capacity and infrastructure planning easier and you'll see that what NS does makes perfect sense.

Usually long-distance express train has far less costumers per km than regional services. In the case of Netherlands, without any speed upgrading of the network, it would be possible to run a non-stop train from Sittard (in Limburg) to Amsterdam in less than 1h30, if it were non-stop. Today services take 2h10.I don't agree. Amsterdam-Sittard is 196 km. That would require an AVERAGE speed of 130 km/h, which is impossible on the current infrastructure. For example, you're not able to drive through Utrecht with a higher speed than 40 km/h. Therefore, non-stop services will have less time benefit than you might expect.

If I remember correctly, the Intercity Amsterdam-Maastricht-Liège-Luxemburg (once a day in summer) skipped some intercity stations. This train has been dissolved some years ago. And IIRC, the intercities Amsterdam-Berlin (then 4x/day) didn't call at Almelo and Apeldoorn a few years ago.

Another special service was the so-called "Civil Servants Express" (ambtenarenexpres) between Groningen and The Hague, which skipped Amersfoort. So non-stop Zwolle-Utrecht.

I can remember an item on tv news in the early 90s. The mayor of Amersfoort was upset about a plan in which (some) intercities would no longer call at Amersfoort. It sounds nowadays strange to me, but I can clearly remember.

There is no rolling stock to cope with such demand, unless you "degrade" the railway to normal 160 km/h in a permanent basis (like they are doing temporarily while the Fyra stock is not delivered), but that would just jeopardize the very reason by which the project was done, and would slow down Thalys services too.


Not true, the fact that the speed is limited is due to incompatibilities with the ETCS equipment.
On the HSL between antwerp and the Netherlands, Thalys is allowed to go at 300km/h while the domestic train does only 160 km/h, so that wouldn't be a problem.

Also, in Belgium NMBS is upgrading its I6/I10 stock, maybe NS could do the same with the ICR stock, so they do the same as the NMBS with the line between Leuven and Liege (Thalys at 300, domestic at 200)

A 30-year-old man from Leiden has been given 60 hours community service and a suspended month jail term for forging at least 20 public transport smart cards.
The man, known as Erik van IJ, used a card reader and computer software to transfer information from a legal transport card to fake ones. He claims to have hacked the cards in order to show how weak their security is.

IJ is the first person to be found guilty of forging transport cards – the ov-chipkaart – since they were introduced.

source (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/12/hacker_gets_community_service.php)

The way they caught this guy was pretty interesting too... appearantly the TLS backend found out that fraudulent transactions were taking place, but instead of simply blacklisting the card they decided to track him (as he had a frequent home-work travel pattern) and wait for him to use his cloned OV-chipkaart at a terminal.

I'm not entirely sure I read the article correctly, but apparently two thirds of Sprinter new fleet are broken and out of service due to winter conditions affecting their systems.

It's a major blow to NS services, which is then rushing crappy, noise and very old trains about to be retired to fill the gaps...

================
Tweederde nieuwe stoptreinen kapot (http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2010/12/23/tweederde-nieuwe-stoptreinen-kapot/)
Tweederde van de 95 nieuwe sprinters van de NS zijn kapot. Dat bevestigt een woordvoerder van de NS tegenover ANP na eerdere berichtgeving van de NOS.

De nieuwe stoptreinen van Bombardier, een consortium van Siemens, zijn tijdens het winterse weer van de laatste weken stil komen te staan. Smeltwater van de sneeuw lijkt problemen te hebben veroorzaakt in de elektronica van de treinen. Maar definitief uitsluitsel kan de NS daar nog niet over geven. Meer dan dertig technici van Bombardier zijn in allerijl naar Nederland gekomen om de problemen op te lossen.

Volgens de vervoersmaatschappij hebben de problemen met de nieuwe sprinters geen gevolgen voor de dienstregeling. De oude stoptreinen, die de sprinters moesten vervangen, zijn ingezet op de trajecten waar door de defecten treinstellen uit zijn gevallen.

It's a major blow to NS services, which is then rushing crappy, noise and very old trains about to be retired to fill the gaps...

But apparently able to work even when the sun isn't shining and everything is wet:tongue2:

The already retired DDM1 double decker trains (pushed/pulled by a class 1800 loco) will be re-activated as a huge amount of Sprinter Light Trainsets are out of service due to snow related malfunctioning.

NOS mentioned that of 95 SLT's available to NS, only 10 are in service... which is a huge blow to NS indeed. The SLT trainsets were to be NS's answer to the new trains bought by Veolia, Arriva and others (mostly the GTW trainsets from Stadler): clean, light, fast, open and step-free access.

However, the trainsets are turning out to be a huge headache to passengers, train drivers, train managers and now upper management of NS:
- No toilets (NS has officially stated no more SLT will be ordered after delivery of the current order)
- Breaks down easily
- Train series that were punctual with the previous trains (DD-AR, Mat '64 or SGMm) are now delayed frequently
- Too little leg room
- Passengers feel unsafe
- Delivered way too late

The union for train drivers has gathered a list of complaints, which can be found here (http://media.rtl.nl/media/actueel/rtlnieuws/2010/vvcs-evaluatieproblemensprinter.pdf) (in Dutch).

SLT is not the only trainset giving NS a headache, the V250 trains from AnsaldoBreda are still problematic as well. This shows a problem NS is having: the unability to order decent rolling stock. Perhaps this is due to the people in the NS headquarters having lost all touch with the outside world?

SLT is highly criticized for being a 'drawing board train', due to the lack of toilets and leg space... if even the staff apologizes for having an SLT you just know something is wrong...

Sorry, it is the 2400 series what you're talking about?

The SLT trains are numbered in both the 2400 series and the 2600 series. The 2400's consist of 4-car trainsets and are built by Bombardier, the 6-car trainsets are numbered in the 2600 and are built by Siemens.

Both the 2400 and the 2600 series have their share of problems, so they're not unique to either Bombardier or Siemens.

The SLT trains are numbered in both the 2400 series and the 2600 series.
I see, thanks!

However, the trainsets are turning out to be a huge headache to passengers, train drivers, train managers and now upper management of NS:
- No toilets (NS has officially stated no more SLT will be ordered after delivery of the current order)

These trains are meant for short journeys. I don't have details, but I doubt any official suggested route would involve anything like 45min in one of those trains. Maybe the Rotterdam-Hoek van Holland route. The question is that some people, out of laziness, prefer to take longer routes on Sprinters than change for an Intercity and arrive early. For instance, some passengers travel from Breda to Utrecht in a stoptrein instead of taking 2 Intercity just to avoid a connection at Den Bosch or Rotterdam - e.g., lazy.

Toilets are very expensive now that NS, rightfully, will not fit any open discharge toilet in its trains anymore.


- Train series that were punctual with the previous trains (DD-AR, Mat '64 or SGMm) are now delayed frequently
Not necessarily related with rolling stock.


- Too little leg room

This is definitively an issue with those trains.


- Passengers feel unsafe

Says who? Why? This doesn't make sense at all. Frist, these trains are designed as open room, so you don't have that situation of a strange type sit in a compartment with your. Second, there are cameras (a lot of them) on those trains. Third, they are very well-lit. What would make these trains "unsafe"?

70% of the fleet of new Sprinters have been damaged by winter conditions. It is more a design flaw than anything else, as those trains are rather new, many of them brand new.

On top of that, older rolling stock not yet "winterized" also suffered and a non-disclosed number of cars and EMUs are not available until they will be repaired.

Therefore, NS announced a set of measures to accommodate the shortcoming for the whole month of January:

- instead of cancelling trains, NS will run shorter trains in many routes until repaired sets/cars are put back to service. In most cases, this mean trains with half the capacity of usual ones. Overcrowd is expected and predicted at peak times.

- Fyra and ICE will be opened (the later only within Netherlands, of course) for passengers with common tickets without supplement.

- every passenger will be entitled to the off-peak 40% discount, regardless of possession of a discount plan/card


Of the measures above, I don't agree with opening ICEs without the supplement. There are not many of them running, and they are usually already half-full. It could end with stranded passengers between Utrecht and Amsterdam, compromising the high-quality travel experience ICE Intl. passengers have.

I also fear that controllers will become loose on avoiding people with 2nd class tickets spoiling 1st class users by sitting there. The only major advantage of 1st class hefty price difference in Netherlands is that it is far less crowded than 2nd class and almost always have seats available. This extra comfort of a less crowded seating area will become even more important when many trains are expected to be very crowded due to their shortening, so I hope NS keeps enforcing 1st class tickets on 1st class seats.

In regard of Fyra, they have already waived fare supplement (far higher than that of ICE) in a number of occasions. Indeed, at the smallest problem in the Rotterdam-Den Haag-Leiden-Schiphol line they seem to open Fyra (now running 34 services per direction daily) for other passengers. This has increased the number of people travelling on Fyra considerably and increased awareness of the service among users. My only concern: that passengers will demand Fyra to be open all the times without supplement and NS bowing to them as an image-appease initiative, which could derail HSA already precarious financial situation.

Actually, when the Fyra supplement is waived, NS Reizigers pays a sum of money to HSA to pay for those supplements.

About SLT: if you live in Gilze-Rijen and you have to go to work in Houten-Castellum, the sprinter series are the only options you have. That's over an hour in a train without a toilet, and there are no faster alternatives. NS intended the SLT trainsets for short trips (where the average passenger would be in an SLT for 20 minutes max.) but when they use these trains on long-haul services like Rotterdam - Alkmaar, you're bound to attract passengers that make long trips in a sprinter simply because it's the fastest route.

Furthermore sometimes SLT is also used as a replacement service when the original train is broken down. I.e. on the The Hague - Venlo route, an intercity service. SLT doesn't belong there in the first place, but when it does make its appearance there it's just a huge pain in the ass to passengers that need to.. well.. go.

This is a problem, either because NS ordered the wrong trains or perhaps they ordered the right trains but they are using them on the wrong route.



About safety: from what I've understood, people feel unsafe in SLT exactly because of the wide open area and that there is not a single place in the train where you can not be seen. The older Mat '64, the SGMm trains, the intercities, they all have compartments which are at most as long as the carriage itself. SLT is a wide open area and as well-lit as a soccer field.

About delays: not necessarily related to the rolling stock, I think the NS staff still needs to get used to the trains and its characteristics.

SLT reliability has dropped below 10% recently because of (your not gonna believe it) melting snow water that entered the electrical systems and caused chortcuts in the electrical systems of the train. What a wonderfull product, a leaking train.....

SLT reliability has dropped below 10% recently because of (your not gonna believe it) melting snow water that entered the electrical systems and caused chortcuts in the electrical systems of the train. What a wonderfull product, a leaking train.....

Sounds like rushed production......how many SLT's does NS own?

Sounds like rushed production......how many SLT's does NS own?

No apperantly it has something to do with an altered design of the airflow for cooling the electronics.:ohno:
The alteration was requested by NS, they probably regret this deerly :rofl:

Sounds like rushed production......how many SLT's does NS own?

NS itself owns no trains. The lease company NS Financial services is responsible for rolling stock procurement and dry lease to NS.

But there are 99 sets.

^^ NS Financial Services is a 100% subsidiary of N.V. Nederlandse Spoorwegen (NS). So, what is your point?

Besides that, "NS itself owns no trains" doesn't mean anything if you don't know the terms of the contracts (financial lease, operational lease, something between financial/operational lease?). I only know that NSFS is founded for tax reasons.

News about the High Speed Trains:

Breda in April
High speed service will be extended to the city of Breda as of Apri 4th 2011. It will take 25 minutes between Rotterdam and Breda. Breda will now be directly connected with Schiphol Airport. Travel time between Breda and Amsterdam Centraal will be cut by 34 minutes, and will be 1:09h. This will all be done with the temporary trains that run 160 km/h.

Full speed in december 2011
In december 2011 the high speed trains will finally become operational, so that the speed on the line can be upgraded to 250km/h. NS Hispeed announced that the trains will be delivered by AnsaldoBreda this summer, and will be integrated in the 2012 service.

Lower rates
The number of travellers on the high speed trains between Rotterdam and Amsterdam have been low. But due to problems with other trains, NS have gotten rid of the supplement ticket in january 2011. It may come as no surprise that now the trains have filled up. From february 2011 on, NS Hispeed has lowered the rates for Fyra trains. For instance, the supplement between Schiphol and Rotterdam was €6 each way, and will be lowered to €2.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3444/3713069336_5ff214d5ed.jpg

It affects not only rail, but I think the news (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2011/03/public_transport_smart_card_in.php) are important anyway:

The public transport smart card can be used in buses, trains, trams and the metro nationwide from Wednesday, news agency ANP reports.
Groningen and Drenthe provinces are the last regions to be connected to the ov-chipkaart system. That should have happened in December but there were problems with the supply of the card readers, ANP said.

Paper tickets will now be gradually phased out over much of the country. They have already been scrapped in the Rotterdam and Amsterdam metropolitan regions.

One expected effect is that Arriva trains in Friesland and Groningen will now accept OV Chipkaart as mean of payment. This is a very bold move and I hope to see all paper ticket machines gone in 2013 at the latest! Then, anyone travelling in Netherlands will need a smart card and the gate isolation of fare-paying areas of many big train stations will go on.

Some coaches of an AnsaldoBreda train waiting in the factory on the 7th March 2011.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6780/1024dsc09260.jpg

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/378/1024dsc09261.jpg

Use of the high-speed train Fyra between Amsterdam and Rotterdam has more than doubled since the supplementary fee was slashed, according to NS figures.
In the last quarter of 2010, 215,000 people used the train, but that rose to 550,000 in the first three months of 2010.

In January, the supplement was scrapped altogether and in February and March it was cut from €6 to €2.10.

In February, transport minister Melanie Schultz van Haegen warned the company charged with operating high speed trains in the Netherlands is in financial trouble and action needs to be taken to avoid bankruptcy.

The company, High Speed Alliance, is 90% owned by the Dutch national railways NS and 10% by Air France-KLM. They won sole operating rights 10 years ago, well before the track was completed.

Today, the 2th of april 2011, the service on the HSL-Zuid is extended from Rotterdam to Breda.

From now one, the next services use the HSL-Zuid
10x daily: Thalys Amsterdam Centraal - Schiphol Amsterdam Airport - Rotterdam Centraal - Antwerp Centraal - Brussels Midi - Paris Nord
32x daily: Fyra Amsterdam Centraal - Schiphol Amsterdam Airport - Rotterdam Centraal - Breda

More official information here (http://www.nshispeed.nl/en/travelling-by-fyra/destinations-fyra) (officially services start 4th of april, but you can travel on the 2th and 3th as well).

NS is reported to be considering a new fare scheme that would introduce an evening peak fare. As it stands now, subscribers of NS travel cards (€ 55/year) can travel with 40% discounted fares outside the morning peak, which lasts until 9:00 weekdays. Now, NS is considering to introduce an evening peak also (17:00-19:00) because trains are increasingly crowded at that time.

To add to that: current subscribers will be able to keep using their cards as nothing will change for them (until the subscription expires I think, it might be possible NS would not allow a renewal).

Apart from that, NS will be introducing several new passes which will replace the Off-peak Hours Pass (Voordeelurenabonnement, VDU):

Dal Voordeel
This pass pretty much resembles the current Voordeelurenabonnement: it gives a 40% discount during off-peak hours, and will cost € 50 per year.
It should be noted that this subscription does not give full day discount in july and august, unlike the current VDU.
Weekend Vrij
This pass is the same as above, but allows for unlimited travel at no extra cost during weekends. Will cost € 40 per month (2nd class).
Dal Vrij
This pass extends the unlimited travel of Weekend Vrij to all off-peak hours and will be available for purchase for the price of € 95 per month (2nd class).
Altijd Voordeel
This pass gives a 20% discount during peak hours and 40% during off-peak and weekends. € 20 per month.
Altijd Vrij
This pass allows for unlimited travel during peak and off-peak hours and weekends, will cost € 295 per month (2nd class).

Peak-hours: on business days (i.e. mon - fri) this means the time period between 6:30 AM and 9:00 AM (morning peak), and 16:00 - 18:30 (evening rush hour)
Off-peak hours: 9:00 AM - 16:00, and after 18:30. Saturday and Sunday are off-peak for the entire day.

Please note that these products are valid only on trains operated by NS, and not on services operated by Veolia, Arriva, Syntus and Connexxion. The subscriptions can be purchased per month. The current VDU will be available until August 1st. After August 1st, only the new subscriptions as outlined above will be available for purchase. They will be issued on a OV-chipkaart, which will be the only way of using them.

For more information, please visit NS.nl (http://www.ns.nl/cs/Satellite/reizigers/regelen-en-kopen/nieuweabonnementen/nieuweabonnementenmain) (only in Dutch).

Apart from that, NS will be introducing several new passes which will replace the Off-peak Hours Pass (Voordeelurenabonnement, VDU):


Dal Vrij
This pass extends the unlimited travel of Weekend Vrij to all off-peak hours and will be available for purchase for the price of € 95 per month (2nd class).

I was invited as a tester of this plan, but I didn't want to pay € 95 to ride trains when I didn't need it. I'm afraid, though, that this clearly subsidized plan will benefit those who need it less: mobile workers travelling on companies' expenses. It is a bargain for those travelling often during the workday (think of sales representatives). It reflects the low occupation of seats during these times, hovering likely around 15%-25% at most off-peak.

What I question is: shouldn't NS reduce frequency of services instead of selling those seats in subscription plans cheap? Do we really need 2 Maastricht-Amsterdam/Schiphol Intercity services per hour off-peak instead of one every 45 or 50 minutes? Couldn't NS rest some trains and their crews off-peak?


Altijd Voordeel
This pass gives a 20% discount during peak hours and 40% during off-peak and weekends. € 20 per month.

I think this will be hugely popular with commuters. The € 120/year fee easily pays off with peak time discounts.


Altijd Vrij
This pass allows for unlimited travel during peak and off-peak hours and weekends, will cost € 295 per month (2nd class).

This is actually the equivalent of the Jaarabonementen for unlimited distances (whole network) of NS trains, prices are close too.


Please note that these products are valid only on trains operated by NS, and not on services operated by Veolia, Arriva, Syntus and Connexxion. The subscriptions can be purchased per month.

I guess ICE Frankfurt/Basel, Fyra, Thalys and IC Berlin are also excluded from these subscription trains as they are operated by NS Hispeed, DB and Thalys.

I was invited as a tester of this plan, but I didn't want to pay € 95 to ride trains when I didn't need it. I'm afraid, though, that this clearly subsidized plan will benefit those who need it less: mobile workers travelling on companies' expenses. It is a bargain for those travelling often during the workday (think of sales representatives). It reflects the low occupation of seats during these times, hovering likely around 15%-25% at most off-peak.

What I question is: shouldn't NS reduce frequency of services instead of selling those seats in subscription plans cheap? Do we really need 2 Maastricht-Amsterdam/Schiphol Intercity services per hour off-peak instead of one every 45 or 50 minutes? Couldn't NS rest some trains and their crews off-peak?


I think reducing frequencies will be counter-effective. NS aims at achieving growth during off-peak hours (and relieving rush hour a bit as those trains are almost full), but to do this the off-peak services need to be attractive.

I agree that NS could perhaps use their trains and people a bit more efficient, take the 800 series for example. This train runs from Alkmaar to Sittard, and then splits into two trains of which one goes to Maastricht and the other one to Heerlen, and vice versa.

While this makes perfect sense during rush hour (it is more attractive to passengers to Utrecht and beyond to not have to change trains) it results in at least two trainsets (but sometimes even 3) running the entire length to Alkmaar and back, which could be overkill. A long while ago, I saw 12 double decker carriages passing by 's-Hertogenbosch station.

I think it could be done with half the capacity, but it would also mean people would have to change trains. Even if it's a guaranteed cross-platform change, people experience it as a delay and an uncertainty in their trip.

NS aims to offer a "gecadanseerd" schedule. This means that the timetable is the same every hour, as this makes it easier for passengers to remember when their train leaves, and from which platform.

Therefor I think reducing frequencies is a bad idea, and changing series is a bad idea as well.

I think this will be hugely popular with commuters. The € 120/year fee easily pays off with peak time discounts.

You mean: € 240,- a year. ;-)

This is actually the equivalent of the Jaarabonementen for unlimited distances (whole network) of NS trains, prices are close too.
Yes it is, the difference being that the current Jaarabonnement allows all trains, also those of Veolia. This one doesn't, it's only NS.
I guess ICE Frankfurt/Basel, Fyra, Thalys and IC Berlin are also excluded from these subscription trains as they are operated by NS Hispeed, DB and Thalys.Thalys is excluded as it's a reservation only service (Thalys is always excluded from promotions and even the current Jaarabonnement), yet all the other services will be included.

IC Brussel runs as an additional intercity in the Netherlands and can be used for domestic travel without any reservation or supplement. IC Berlin is fully integrated into the timetable and even replaces a normal train service. Those IC services will be included in these subscription plans.

Fyra is a domestic intercity service and will be included, but a supplement will be required. In the future, this can be put on a OV-chipkaart as well.

I am not sure about ICE, but from what I've read on Twitter it will be included (just like it is nowadays) and a supplement will not be required.

What I question is: shouldn't NS reduce frequency of services instead of selling those seats in subscription plans cheap? Do we really need 2 Maastricht-Amsterdam/Schiphol Intercity services per hour off-peak instead of one every 45 or 50 minutes? Couldn't NS rest some trains and their crews off-peak?

NS aims to offer a "gecadanseerd" schedule. This means that the timetable is the same every hour, as this makes it easier for passengers to remember when their train leaves, and from which platform.

Sometimes the only reduction obtained when rail services are cut is in comfort for passengers: halving the number of trains on a given line doesn't halves the costs of keeping the railway running. Shortening the trains (like from 3 to 2 EMU in multiple) may be a better idea, especially if this allow maintenance work during the day (instead of night).

Cadenced timetables (symmetric, with trains every (sub)multiple of 60 minutes) are not only a way to help passengers, but also a system to save money. A simple exmple is a single track line with a train roughly every hour, where trains cross themselves always on different stations. With a symmetric tibetable they cross always on the same stations, so crossing points may be reduced (even if sometimes this may not be a good idea). On a bigger scale, this allow a lot of traffic with fewer tracks, compared with the same traffic without coordination.

Something NS should do is get away with trains that are coupled/decoupled. I don't understand the point of having them, particularly on Leeuwarden/Groningen-Den Haag/Rotterdam route that couple/uncouple on both ends.

They should have fixed routes, for instance: Den Haag-Groningen, and Rotterdam-Leeuwarden, without any coupling/de-coupling.

They should also have fixed trains on Maastricht/Heerlen-Alkmaar/Schiphol routes: fix the routes to Heerlen-Alkmaar and Maastricht-Schiphol only, without the fuss about attaching cars in Sittard.

I don't see much possibilities for that either, once the High Frequent Rail Transport programme is a regular thing, there will be 6 intercity trains per hour per direction between Amsterdam and Eindhoven (ETMET), on top of that there will be Sprinter services (Breda - Utrecht, Tilburg University - Eindhoven and Deurne - Nijmegen) and cargo.

Not coupling those trains will require additional train paths and I am not sure if that capacity is even available with ETMET.

Not coupling those trains will require additional train paths and I am not sure if that capacity is even available with ETMET.

What I was thinking was something like this: when a Rotterdam Leeuwarden train is running, an Intercity departs from Den Haag and ends in Gouda, where people northbound connect to the train from Rotterdam. Then, at Meppel, another Intercity departs to Groningen after the Rotterdam train arrives, providing connections.

Same could happen in the south: when a train is coming from Alkmaar, instead of being de-coupled in Sittard it could follow straight to Heerlen, and a short Intercity Sittard-Maastricht would depart 4 min later.

Anyway, with the completion of the Hanzelijn, I guess travelling by Fyra from Rotterdam to Schiphol then travelling on a Schiphol-Zwolle service via Lelysta will be faster than taking Gouda-Amersfoort trains,.

What you are proposing is definitely an option, but it won't be effective: study has shown that for each change of train, passengers experience it as a 15 minute delay. Each change also make the train a less attractive option.

What you are proposing is definitely an option, but it won't be effective: study has shown that for each change of train, passengers experience it as a 15 minute delay. Each change also make the train a less attractive option.

5 minutes are enough for a connection in a relatively small station with 6 or 8 platforms. Today, de-coupling trains in Sittard take at least 8 minutes (if you check the aankmost/vertrek data on the Internet).

Some passengers would rather ride a 3 hour stoptrein without connections than a 2h Intercity journey with 4 connections. I even read somewhere people complaining when the network was reorganized in 2006 because direct strop trains from further north to Amsterdam were cut in 2 or 3 and people were now "forced" to connect even if the change saved them 20 min of travel time or more.

I bet some people will complain loudly of the restructuring of services on Schiphol-Den Haag-Rotterdam route when Fyra comes full service in December and direct Intercity are cut in Leiden or Den Haag Centraal.

I can understand it too: a direct train provides certainty, you can just remain seated. Not having to worry about "Where is my connecting train?", "Oh crap, this train is 10 minutes delayed and now I will miss the connecting service" et cetera.

I bet some people will complain loudly of the restructuring of services on Schiphol-Den Haag-Rotterdam route when Fyra comes full service in December and direct Intercity are cut in Leiden or Den Haag Centraal.
These cuts are unneccessary and I believe are intended to push those passengers into the more expensive Fyra trains. The alternative (direct service) will be diverted through Haarlem and will be slowed significantly as more stations along that route are 'upgraded' to an intercity station.

So I can understand any potential uproar about those.

Today the first trains run in one direction through the new Hanzelijn-bridge near Zwolle. For now, only the trains Amersfoort-Zwolle run through this bridge. After 12-12-2012, the new link Lelystad-Zwolle will run there as well.

A cabride of the first train this morning:
rDvCSUWDG-U

NS has announced that OV chipkaart (RFID smartcards) will be the only possible mean of payment of train fares in Netherlands from late 2012. This is 6 months after the initially planned phase-out of paper tickets on inter-city trains.

Local public transportation systems are also implementing the same card. In many regions, they are the only possible mean of using transit, save for an expensive single-trip disposable RFID card one can buy from conductors in certain trams and buses. A flat fee + distance-based fare is now applicable on transit, instead of the outdated and overdone zonal system in use before, based on mechanical stamps of cards market with strips.

Only exceptions to the card requirement will be passengers using international train tickets that entitles travel with NS trains for part of the journey and those using rail passes.

NS has announced that OV chipkaart (RFID smartcards) will be the only possible mean of payment of train fares in Netherlands from late 2012. This is 6 months after the initially planned phase-out of paper tickets on inter-city trains.

Local public transportation systems are also implementing the same card. In many regions, they are the only possible mean of using transit, save for an expensive single-trip disposable RFID card one can buy from conductors in certain trams and buses. A flat fee + distance-based fare is now applicable on transit, instead of the outdated and overdone zonal system in use before, based on mechanical stamps of cards market with strips.

Only exceptions to the card requirement will be passengers using international train tickets that entitles travel with NS trains for part of the journey and those using rail passes.

As usual anything that makes transit less attractive is heralded as progress by suburbanist...

As usual anything that makes transit less attractive is heralded as progress by suburbanist...

:lol:

As usual anything that makes transit less attractive is heralded as progress by suburbanist...

How a national transit card, that will be accepted in any land-based public transportation in the country but taxis, from Intercity trains to passenger river ferries makes transit "less attractive"?

That card can be programed to be reloaded automatically whenever it reaches the minimum threshold, meaning you don't need to buy a ticker ever. Their are valid for 5 years and are being handled out for €2. So for 95% of transit users, or more, it is going to simplify payment, and also bring savings as they are going to close tickets sales point in all but a handful of major train stations.

Only foreign tourists might have a harder time trying to figure out the system, as most are used only to oh-so-1960 colored paper tickets.

I love the idea of the OV-chipcard, but there is certainly room for improvement.
There are a lot little annoyances that i didn't have when using the Octopus card in Hong Kong.

Just to learn from example:

Make the anonymous card cheaper. € 7.50 is too much. Make it € 5.00 at most. Don't force people to get the € 2.00 registered one. Also make it a "borg": when people hand their card back in, make them get their € 5.00 (or € 7.50 as it is now) back.

Keep the card valid till it breaks. The Octopus card is valid forever, why does the OV-Chipcard have to be any different? And if they really have technical reasons for the short validity, then at least let people hand in their expired cards to get their € 7.50 back.

Make an anonymous card for children and senior citizens. There is an Octopus card like this, and it would be like the old "pink" strippenkaart that we already had. There's no reason not to do this: if people don't want to pay, there's already ways to do that. They won't get a "pink OV-Chipcard" just to pay less. They would still be screwed when being checked, as they would be with a pink strippenkaart.

Make it easier to charge. In Hong Kong all you have to do is hop into a 7/11, put your card on a pad, give the person behind the desk some money and they will charge it onto your card. In The Netherlands the equivalent could be the places where they now have those yellow "charging stations", which accept no cash: Albert Heijn, Primera, etc. They will be happy to receive customers at the desk, since Primera owners have already complained about losing customers because they no longer have to come to the desk to buy a strippenkaart, where they usually also buy other things while they are there.

Make the beeps at check-in and check-out louder, make the message on the screen more clear.
During rush-our in the Amsterdam metro, it's basically impossible to hear and see whether your card checked out, or whether you're just walking through the door opened by the person in front of you. It's really annoying when bad design like this costs you 4 euros. It hasn't cost me money yet, but it has cost me time: the check-in gate didn't give me any message whether i had been checked in, so i had to go back to one of the blue poles to see... i had been checked in succesfully. Thanks for telling me.
So: make sure your machines work, and make sure they work ergonomically.

Make the paper cards cheaper. Right now there is a one-hour card for public transport in Amsterdam, which costs € 2,60. This is a good price for someone who has to travel for one hour, but for someone who only wants to go 1 or 2 stops and otherwise never uses public transportation, this is insane. Make a half-hour card for € 1,30.

I'm with you. I don't see why we had to reinvent the wheel and then proceed to come up with a worse design when we might have just copied a perfectly functioning system from elsewhere in the world.

But of course by the same token we might have just asked the French to build our highspeed railway line and get some of their trains 2nd hand and on the cheap. But nooo, we had to do it all ourselves. And fuck it up. :ohno:

How a national transit card, that will be accepted in any land-based public transportation in the country but taxis, from Intercity trains to passenger river ferries makes transit "less attractive"?

You don't need a chip card to have an integrated tariff system. So the fact that the OV Chipcard offers this is a weak argument.

The whole system is flawed in principle. In a conventional, paper based system as a passenger you are yourself responsible for having the right transportation title on you when you travel. Paper tickets are easily understandable by everyone, and can be checked without special equipment.

Yesterday when I took the bus I stamped my ticket(as usual) and then noticed that the stamping machine had obviously run out of ink, as it had cut of a piece of my 12 trips card, but not stamped the line next to the piece it cut of. So I just went to the bus driver, and he wrote in the time and the stop I boarded at in by hand. Problem solved. However, had I not done that I would have had a hard time explaining my self to the train conductor of the train I took as the second part of my trip.
But as the integrated tariff around here uses simple paper tickets that any user can understand the problem was avoided.

You can't audit a chipcard without the right equipment.
When I was last in London, I used to Oyster Card. When transferring from the DLR to the Underground at Canary Warf I somehow overlooked the machine where I had to "check out" after using the DLR. So I ended up not being able to pass the gate at the underground station. I went to a staffed ticket booth, where my Oyster Card was checked and somehow fixed, so I could now enter the underground station. This was done without questions asked.
This shows me that the system is actually open to manipulation, and that the only way for the manipulation to be limited is that the transport company takes it upon itself to make sure everyone has the right ticket before boarding a vehicle. So you suddenly need gates at every station, and more importantly you need staff at every station. On the London Underground the stations are all staffed, and all have gates. On the DLR the stations don't have gates and are mostly unstaffed, which means that "checking out" with your Chip Card is not enforced.

So with a chipcard you need to have gates at every transit stop. You need staff at every transit stop too. (In the UK at stations with gates they are left open when there is no staff present). So it works in urban transit, but not in a country wide regional system. A lot of train stations in the Netherlands are unstaffed, and therefore you can get on a train without any problem. Since a passenger cannot herself verify that the Chip Card "check in" machine did the right thing before she boards a train she cannot be expected to have the right transport title when checked on board. I wonder what will happen once someone challenges the system in court afte having been given a fine for not properly checking in...
But even when it works the system is quite open to being abused and gamed in many ways. Especially since the work of the ticket inspectors has suddenly gotten a lot harder too. One trick is checking in, and checking out again immediately. When a ticket inspector comes you just claim you did the right thing, but the machine obviously didn't.
I wouldn't be surprised if over the next years public transport companies in the Netherlands saw a reduction in revenue.

^^ They addressed many of your concerns.



The whole system is flawed in principle. In a conventional, paper based system as a passenger you are yourself responsible for having the right transportation title on you when you travel. Paper tickets are easily understandable by everyone, and can be checked without special equipment.
This is just anti-progress. Airline tickets, AFAIK, until the late 1990s were in paper-based versions that actually represented the tickets and had value in themselves. I guess some people might have complained about e-tickets being "open to manipulation" or else.

More important, the urban transportation in the whole country was converted into a km-based system, which is usually most fair in a country without very big metro areas or extreme high-density origin/destination points. There is a flat entrance fee (€ 0,70) + km-based fee. Changes (connections) within a certain time threshold, calculated automatically, don't imply in a new entrance fee being charged.

This is more sensible and precise than the old system of fare zones. However, it would be very difficult to sign and sell tickets for km-based journeys without an automated collection system. The passenger would have to calculate the distance of the journey and buy a ticket for the equivalent fare (OV Chipkaart have precision on € 0,01). You'd have to have massive panels of all possible combinations between two stops within a network in places like Amsterdam or Rotterdam-Den Haag. Then, you'd have to deal with enhanced and tweaked fare discounts rules.


You can't audit a chipcard without the right equipment.

Every conductor in public transportation in NL has the "right equipment".

. So you suddenly need gates at every station, and more importantly you need staff at every station. On the London Underground the stations are all staffed, and all have gates. On the DLR the stations don't have gates and are mostly unstaffed, which means that "checking out" with your Chip Card is not enforced.

So with a chipcard you need to have gates at every transit stop. You need staff at every transit stop too. (In the UK at stations with gates they are left open when there is no staff present). So it works in urban transit, but not in a country wide regional system. A lot of train stations in the Netherlands are unstaffed, and therefore you can get on a train without any problem.

Netherlands has a place to put fare gates in major train stations platforms. They also have an "incentive" system here: a €4 to € 40 balance is required on your card before checking in (depending if it is an urban, 1st class rail, 2st class rail or any of them with discount plans). €4 or € 20 is what 99% of possible combinations of urban transit or intercity train 2nd class with discount, respectively, will cost. If you check-out properly, your card is "refunded" to make it a net withdraw of your payable fare (it appears on a display the moment you check-out, contrary to Oyster). If not, you lose the whole money withdrawn on check-in.

The OV Chipkaart also makes it easier to make trips that are partially on peak and partially off-peak. Up to now, they had just a single discount card: € 55/year for 40% off-peak (all times but Mon-Fri 6h30-9h) discount. Now, with improved ticketing with the RFID card, they introduced an evening (16h30-19h) peak, and different discount plans like € 20/month for 20% peak + 40% off-peak discount, € 45/month for unlimited weekend travel + 40% off-peak discount, € 95/month for unlimited off-peak and weekend travel + 40% off-peak discount.

If you were travelling on a journey that comprised peak and off-peak, you'd have to buy 2 paper tickets, with a break in the first city after the 9h or before 6h30, if you didn't want to just pay full fare all the way. Now, the chipkaart automatically calculates that.

Since a passenger cannot herself verify that the Chip Card "check in" machine did the right thing before she boards a train she cannot be expected to have the right transport title when checked on board.

The Dutch OV Chipkaart readers display a color, a sound, and a written advise upon touching to certify your card is good for travel. The sound for successful check-in or failed check-in is clearly different. One is green, other is red.

One trick is checking in, and checking out again immediately. When a ticket inspector comes you just claim you did the right thing, but the machine obviously didn't.


Dutch OV Chipkaart readers cannot check-in and check-out at the same card within 150 sec. A third signal (yellow) and a written message says you already checked in (or out) and can't repeat it. This was done specifically to prevent the scenario you described.

It is the obligation of the passenger to assure him/herself that he/she had the proper travel title. In reality, it is not much different than a challenge of current system: people could claim the stamp machines were broken (some small stations had just one per platform). Foreigners would board trains from Amsterdam to Zaandam using their invalid (for that journey) tourist transport cards for 24 or 72h.


So, you see, the Dutch system is more resourceful than Oyster or Octopus cards. Those were meant only for use on systems that were 100% either gated or staffed controlled (like buses). The OV Chipkaart has a more ample scope.

The biggest (and only, if you think about) failure of the OV-chipcard is that it misaligns the burdens and costs of implementation, the transitory costs that come with the incredibly stupid decision to develop a system from scratch instead of adopting Oyster. Examples:
-Studentenkaart administrative failures.
-Costs of 'forgetting' to check out.
-Confusion created by the multiple cards needed for specific-operator discount fares.

These are not theoretical problems like K_'s, but actualy, real observed problems. The problem is that the costs for these things are now burdens on the user instead of the operator. That's bad for two reasons.

(1) It's a cost to those users, which is unfair, creates a backlash against the system as a whole which leads to costly delays--for example the parliamentary response.

(2) More importantly, aligns economic incentives wrong, as those able to fix things have pretty small incentives to change stuff. It earns them money, after all. But even when taking a more nuanced, less conspiracy-theory view, it's about priorities, about executives and management pushing things through, and about private sector taking a stance and just going to fix something.

TLS are complete ****heads, so much is clear. Connexion and Arriva have exited the organisation because of that reason. Left is a bunch of bureaucrats and consultants without any private sector incentives, or monetary incentives at all, to do a decent job. More positively framed: if Connexion and Arriva were losing millions a year because of TLS failures, those failures would be fixed already. That's the failure of the OV-chipcard.

This is just anti-progress. Airline tickets, AFAIK, until the late 1990s were in paper-based versions that actually represented the tickets and had value in themselves. I guess some people might have complained about e-tickets being "open to manipulation" or else.
[quote]
Repeat after me:
Trains are not planes.
Trains are not planes.
Trains are not planes.
Do this a couple of times, and then we can continue.

A big difference between a train and a plane is that a plane has a passenger manifest. Think about that.

[quote]
More important, the urban transportation in the whole country was converted into a km-based system, which is usually most fair in a country without very big metro areas or extreme high-density origin/destination points. There is a flat entrance fee (€ 0,70) + km-based fee. Changes (connections) within a certain time threshold, calculated automatically, don't imply in a new entrance fee being charged.
This is more sensible and precise than the old system of fare zones. However, it would be very difficult to sign and sell tickets for km-based journeys without an automated collection system. The passenger would have to calculate the distance of the journey and buy a ticket for the equivalent fare (OV Chipkaart have precision on € 0,01). You'd have to have massive panels of all possible combinations between two stops within a network in places like Amsterdam or Rotterdam-Den Haag. Then, you'd have to deal with enhanced and tweaked fare discounts rules.


You don't need a chip card for that. In Switzerland I can just go to a ticket vending machine, type in where I want to go to, and I'll get a ticket, that includes trains and buses (and sometimes even boats and cable cars) based on the tarrif system the companies involved use. Sometimes it is km based, sometimes zone based. It works.


Every conductor in public transportation in NL has the "right equipment".

Not every train has a conductor on it. And even if it has a conductor, you often don't encounter one. Which means that you only find out you are not in order until you meet the conductor... What happens then?


Netherlands has a place to put fare gates in major train stations platforms. They also have an "incentive" system here: a €4 to € 40 balance is required on your card before checking in (depending if it is an urban, 1st class rail, 2st class rail or any of them with discount plans). €4 or € 20 is what 99% of possible combinations of urban transit or intercity train 2nd class with discount, respectively, will cost. If you check-out properly, your card is "refunded" to make it a net withdraw of your payable fare (it appears on a display the moment you check-out, contrary to Oyster). If not, you lose the whole money withdrawn on check-in.

Which means you need to have 20,- euro on you chipcard when you take the train to Schiphol to fly out, making this trip quite costly if you don't return to the Netherlands.


The Dutch OV Chipkaart readers display a color, a sound, and a written advise upon touching to certify your card is good for travel. The sound for successful check-in or failed check-in is clearly different. One is green, other is red.

Don't forget that soon the majority of people on public transit will be senior citizens, whose hearing and eyesight is not what it once was... Combine that with a bus or tram stops where lots of people want to get on or off, and there will be delays. At least with the oyster card you don't have to check out on buses.


It is the obligation of the passenger to assure him/herself that he/she had the proper travel title.

And as I told you earlier: With a chipcard you cannot expect the passenger to be responsible for this anymore, as the individual passenger cannot audit the chipcard. So the burden is placed upon the transit company. Just wait for the first court case...

^^^
It just takes a generation to get used with the Chipkaart. The current generation already use the Studenten OV Chipkaart (students are traveling for free). They don't use papers-tickets for any public transportation anyway. So in the future they don't know better.

In the old days we had ticket counters with personals. Now we have ticket machines. In the beginning everybody was complaining that the counters were replace by machines. But today nobody complains anymore.

I guess only the main stations with cities 150.000+ inhabitants have a personal ticket-counter, that's only is used by elderly people or tourist.

^^^
It just takes a generation to get used with the Chipkaart. A generation? At most two weeks for 95% of the people.

A generation? At most two weeks for 95% of the people.

And in the third week they find out how to abuse the system to their advantage, leading to reduced revenue for the transit companies...