This is going to be great. I hope it goes through and I cant wat to see the renderings.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/Dancer-2/PICT0309-1.jpg

Me too! GO SEATTLE! :banana:

I attended the design review last night and talked to the developer.

Oh, I took some pictures... (http://seattleplans.blogspot.com/2007/06/striking-design-proposed-for-1903-5th.html)

That's right, you have to visit my blog. (Cue the groans!)
I'll leave it up to someone else to link the photos directly. :nuts:


Thanks for bearing with me,

Seattle Plans
http://seattleplans.blogspot.com

Thanks for the pics!

Any word on who the hotel operator will be? When is the planned start date?

Is there room for both this project and 2nd & Pike which is another similaly sized hotel/condo hybrid.

8th & Pine also fits the same mold but that project appears to be a little further along with a planned fall start and preview events coming up next month.

Ooh, I'm getting more excited about 5th & Stewart! That area is going to be awesome in a few years.

The DR person's comment is hugely discouraging. She fears "retro"? It's INFURIATING that the DR Board cares more about architectural-academic bullshit more than what the general public actually likes. "Retro" would be a hell of a lot better than most of what's built.

Speaking of bullshit, who gives a flying fuck about "exterior expression of interior use"?! Only architects. That's a euphamism for ungraceful, compartmentalized designs.

I didn't ask the developer about the hotel operator and he didn't offer anything about it.

He was cagey about whether it was going to be built in this cycle or the next. He works for a privately-held investment bank, so I wonder if he's just financing in-house... it would offer incredible flexibility.

Thanks for reading... :)

WOW! I love that design of this tower! Very modern and futuristic looking skyscraper! Man! Seattle keep getting much better daily! :banana:

OMG Im in love! That is going to be so cool at 550' in tht area. Thats going to be great for the skyline. It could be the best thing to hit our skyline since City Center :dunno:

^^ Do not forgot about WAMU Center. It was big hit of Seattle Skyline for really long time since Key Tower completed.

Thanks for the pics and the info SeattleRising. Like the blog too :)

Did I read that right? External, glass elevators facing 5th? That would be quite awesome indeed - and something totally unique for Seattle. I say, bring it!

Damn that is a nice looking tower. I was hoping for this NOT to get built since I bought on the east side of Escala, but now that I've seen this, well... it's hard to dislike such a unique looking building. It may actually improve the view since it looks better than the Westin towers.

I like how the lady said the tower could become "retro" when this will be right next door to the Westin towers which are the definition of "retro" in this city

If you live at Escala, this will improve your neighborhood. I can't fathom rooting against it for that reason.

My comment about "retro" was assuming it meant "classic" or "traditional". That's what the public likes and architects hate.

I'm all for it since it looks great I don't think it will impact my view. But for the south/southeast corner (where I had another unit reserved initially), it's going to feel reeeal close. I asked about this project awhile ago and was told by an Escala rep that this project has to be built at least 60' from any part of Escala. Closer than I'd want it to my window.

For me, 60' sounds pretty good. I'm currently about 30' from the other tower at Ellington, and in 2008 I'll be about 26' from the neighboring building at Gallery, across the alley (they don't have balconies, so it might be quieter!). Back when I was in second position for a unit at Escala, I was 60' from the hotel across Virginia.

OK (continuing from the prior thread), there's something wrong here. The photo leading this thread is of a vacant parking lot where I though this was going. The model shows it backing up against Escala which would be on the other side of Stewart.

If so, this would be the demise of one of my favorite restaurants - Icon Grill. A true tragedy if so. Makes more sense to fill the vacant parking lot so hopefully someone screwed up.

Jim, you've misread the model. 5th & Stewart IS going into the vacant lot, and Icon Grill (a favorite of mine too) will remain. See this photo here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/seattleplans/19035thAve/photo#5075739042931415122

The short building closest to the camera in the middle is Icon.

OK (continuing from the prior thread), there's something wrong here. The photo leading this thread is of a vacant parking lot where I though this was going. The model shows it backing up against Escala which would be on the other side of Stewart.

If so, this would be the demise of one of my favorite restaurants - Icon Grill. A true tragedy if so. Makes more sense to fill the vacant parking lot so hopefully someone screwed up.
Maybe the grill will relocate in the new building. :)

Jim, you've misread the model. 5th & Stewart IS going into the vacant lot, and Icon Grill (a favorite of mine too) will remain. See this photo here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/seattleplans/19035thAve/photo#5075739042931415122

The short building closest to the camera in the middle is Icon.

This model confused me completely. Each picture it changed the way of model look and location that got me really confused. Can you or anyone please explain a bit more about it?

From the various photos of the model, it is going right on the parking lot that is shown in the photo at the beginning of the thread.

Perhaps an aerial view will help you visualize if you can't from the models alone:

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=47.613187~-122.338341&style=h&lvl=19&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702442&encType=1

It will be built on parking lot with the trees. Icon is up to the north at the corner of 5th and Virginia. Escala is being built on the other parking lot, where the cranes are in the aerial, as well as the lowrise building that was torn down.

Hit Microsoft's birds eye view (on the left) and it will be even easier to identify.

^^ Now I finally got it! Thank you very much! :) It is great fit in that neighborhood. It will change midterm neighborhood dramatically after Escale and this tower!

Jim, you've misread the model. 5th & Stewart IS going into the vacant lot, and Icon Grill (a favorite of mine too) will remain. See this photo here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/seattleplans/19035thAve/photo#5075739042931415122

The short building closest to the camera in the middle is Icon.

5th and Stewart won't replace the Icon Grill but this new project will:

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/luib/3007182.jpg

PROJECT DESCRIPTION


The proposal is for a mixed-use project comprising approximately 200 hotel rooms, 200 residential units, retail, and seven levels of below-grade parking.

Funny stuff there. So how many residential units and how many hotel rooms are going up on that block?

I always get a kick when I see the name Stewart.

Thats my last name :)

5th and Stewart won't replace the Icon Grill but this new project will:

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/luib/3007182.jpg

<snip>

Is this a new project? I don't recall hearing about it before. Any idea of it's height/#of stories?

It's a 500' zone. Yes, it's new. DR notice today.

Ah yes, thanks. Was thinking today was Wednesday :) That block will rival the 8th and Pine area for density if it all gets built. Escala, 5th & Stewart and now this vs. Olive 8, Ava, Olivian and that building next to the Paramount.

Now THERE GOES the east facing views at Escala...

Indeed, Escala is quickly getting boxed in. Northeast, East, and Southeast from these two developments, and a good part of the West view potentially if the 43 story bldg at 2000 3rd gets built. But it will be a lively neighborhood.

Anyone who doesn't look at the zoning before purchase must have a mental problem.

Don't forget about The Martin just down the street!! No Needle views for you's!

WOW! That neighorhood where Escale is located is about to explode soon! I'm glad Seattle still getting more and more new skyscrapers lately.

Too bad that crummy Avis(?) garage is still going to be there between this project and 5th & Stewart. I believe the developer wanted to acquire it as part of the 5th and stewart project but the owner wouldn't budge. Btw, I believe this new project is by the same developer as 5th and Stewart, they bought both properties during the monorail fire sale.

This is great to see that even after the explosion of growth here, that it does not stop yet. More and more developments keep coming online right after eachother.Like Mhays said, you would be mental not to know this was going to happen. The Developers of Escala I'm sure were betting on this to happen. It will only help them sell the units....Views go, but amenity's rise out of the ground for their customers. If there is an empty parking lot anywhere near a tower, Expect it to be built up in the next 20 years.:banana:

Oh, don't worry, there are plenty of Escala buyers who had no clue that they would lose their views, and so soon. Just read the 2000 3rd decision that references people that went to the design meeting, or the Cosmopolitan blog that has people complaining about the 34-story 8th and Virginia office building that will block all views to the southwest. Unfortunately, it does seem that many people don't think ahead much about this stuff, let alone actually try to find out what is proposed to build.

Very true. I was merely pointing out that they're stupid.

I agree. The buyers need to use their common senses and do the research before they buy it. Anyone should know that living in downtown Seattle is more risky to lose their views by new skyscrapers. If they wants to get killer views... Get pentihouses or move to the suburbs.

According to today's DJC, the developer that has proposed this is also proposing a twin tower on the lot immediately to the north.

http://www.djc.com/

N.Y. developer plans another hotel/condo tower
By LYNN PORTER

A New York firm that is developing a large-scale hotel/condo project along Fifth Avenue across from the Westin now plans another one on that block.

According to today's DJC, the developer that has proposed this is also proposing a twin tower on the lot immediately to the north.

http://www.djc.com/

N.Y. developer plans another hotel/condo tower
By LYNN PORTER

A New York firm that is developing a large-scale hotel/condo project along Fifth Avenue across from the Westin now plans another one on that block.

While I was getting pictures of the Escala, some guy overheard me talking to my friend about all the projects on that block (perhaps it was someone on this forum?) and mentioned that there were plans to have 4 towers on that block. (the escala, 5th and stewart etc block). Is this what you're refering to? has anyone heard anything about the 4th tower? Do you have full text of that article?

New York Developer? You meant Donald Trump? :lol:

Would love to see more on this 4th building as well. If I am recalling the block correctly, it would either have to go in the building that currently has the Piano store (and Escala's presentation center), or the building(s) in between 5th and Stewart and 5th and Virginia?

New York Developer? You meant Donald Trump? :lol:
No, it was the same developer who's building the other project at 5th and Stewart.

No, it was the same developer who's building the other project at 5th and Stewart.

I'm kidding.

^^ Ismael Leyva of New York.

Here's an update from July 16th:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/323919_bizbriefs17.html

Company plans hotel-condo towers in downtown Seattle

New York real estate investment banker Multi Capital Group plans to build two hotel and condo towers in downtown Seattle, the company confirmed Monday.

Each tower would equal about 500,000 square feet, for a total of 400 hotel rooms and 400 condos, said Steven Gestetner, vice president of the New York company and founding member of the project's Seattle development manager, Hummingbird Advisors LLC.

The approximately $900 million project, called Heron Tower, is the first for Hummingbird, and none of the plans is final, he said. It is seeking a hotel operator. The property is on Fifth Avenue between Virginia and Stewart streets.

Wow.....400 condos. I hope they can land a prestigious brand like a Ritz, Mandarin Oriental, or Shangri-La to operate it.

I don't think they are shooting for 5 star calibur.....

Thanks for the extra info. So, excluding Escala, are we looking at 3 new towers for this block, or is this article referring to one of the original 2 we were discussing here in this thread?

I don't think they are shooting for 5 star calibur.....

Oh, so maybe something more along the lines of an Omni or J.W. Marriott?

Can you post a link to the DJC article from Monday about this project?

Wow! Seattle is getting Manhattanized! :banana:

Wow.....400 condos. I hope they can land a prestigious brand like a Ritz, Mandarin Oriental, or Shangri-La to operate it.

YES! Me too! I'd love to see them to get built in Seattle. Have you seen Ritz hotel being built in downtown Los Angeles? It is one of most beautiful hotel buildings even I seen!

Yes that new Ritz in LA is sweet!!

Oh, so maybe something more along the lines of an Omni or J.W. Marriott?

Can you post a link to the DJC article from Monday about this project?

They are shooting for a national flagship Motel 8

They are shooting for a national flagship Motel 8

:lol: thats a good one...

wait.... you're not serious, are you?

They are shooting for a national flagship Motel 8

I hope you're kidding us.

He's joking. I read the article from the DJC today and it had a lot more detail than the blurb in the PI. Here are some highlights from the article


If the developer goes with the same operator for both towers, then the 5th and Stewart will be a 5-star hotel and 5th and Virginia will be a mid-range business class hotel.

If the developer goes with two different operators for the towers, then BOTH of them will be 5-star.

The towers will combine to include 35,000 square feet of retail. The icon grill will be part of the project, not sure if that means they'll try to integrate the current restaurant into the development or if they're assuring them a spot in the retail space. Most likely the latter.

They are trying to start the project anytime between mid-2008 to mid-2009.

Ismael Levya is designing both towers. They're not sure if they will be twins but they will "speak" to each other. 5th and Stewart is 46 floors, 5th and Virginia is 45.

I'm all smiles over this new proposal. I hope it's a good looking project. Downtown Seattle keeps getting better by the day.

I'd KILL for this one (or "these" if that's what we're calling it, I mean them). Some real "downtown" type height and density leading into Belltown.

Thanks for the additional details. So, it is just 2 new buildings (+Escala of course), but this sounds very promising. I look forward to hearing more, especially about who the hotel operators will be, and glad to hear the Icon will still be there in one form or another.

Ismael Leyva is designing both towers. They're not sure if they will be twins but they will "speak" to each other. 5th and Stewart is 46 floors, 5th and Virginia is 45.
:banana:
Here is a taste of what it could look like..Designed by Ismael Leyva
http://aycu04.webshots.com/image/21043/2002549206208096426_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002549206208096426) http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/22037/2005205224294906304_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005205224294906304)
These will be awesome!

I thought I would post this because of the maps and webcam. I know everyone knows this site but here is a quick link to check out the maps.
http://www.escalamidtown.com/ In the Location Tab there is a great Interactive map to view the area..When the cam is up and running it great to see the progress and the property next door where these two babies will be built.

I'd KILL for this one (or "these" if that's what we're calling it, I mean them). Some real "downtown" type height and density leading into Belltown.

If you decided to keep the unit you almost purchased a while ago. You would become a millionaire within few years from now. Once a several towers next to Escala get built and would drive your unit's value to skyrocket. You would sell your unit for more than a million dollar.

I thought I would post this because of the maps and webcam. I know everyone knows this site but here is a quick link to check out the maps.
http://www.escalamidtown.com/ In the Location Tab there is a great Interactive map to view the area..When the cam is up and running it great to see the progress and the property next door where these two babies will be built.

WOW! I never knew that site got webcam too! It is looking like the tower crane base will be installed soon.

Ismael Leyva is designing both towers. They're not sure if they will be twins but they will "speak" to each other. 5th and Stewart is 46 floors, 5th and Virginia is 45.
:banana:
Here is a taste of what it could look like..Designed by Ismael Leyva
http://aycu04.webshots.com/image/21043/2002549206208096426_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002549206208096426) http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/22037/2005205224294906304_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005205224294906304)
These will be awesome!

WOW! You're right! That tower is awesome! I hope this development will be Manhattan style skyscrapers. Seattle needs that!

Uh, guys... it's actually gonna look something like this:

http://lh3.google.com/seattleplans/RnCl0GKCGII/AAAAAAAAADg/1Q_B0C06Ax4/DSC04400small.jpg

More here: http://picasaweb.google.com/seattleplans/19035thAve

^^ yeah we have seen thad wood model for a while now....But is'nt it fun to see something in color.And if we want to dream of something better, Who says thats wrong.:lol:

What happened to the Heron Tower thread with all the new renderings?

Is this project seperate from the Heron Tower?

Same project. Where is the Heron Thread?^^
OO7 did you get rid of it?

Today in the Seattle Land Use Bulletin:Land Use Application to allow a 45 story building with 158 residential units and 178 hotel units. Parking for 252 vehicles will be located in below grade garage. Project includes excavation of 45,000 cu. yds. of material. Review includes Addendum to Downtown Height and Density Environmental Impact Statement and an Administrative Conditional Use for a rooftop feature to exceed 50 feet above the roof of the structure.
http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/31712/2005755220897672121_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005755220897672121)

sounds awesome! I can't wait to see a final rendering!

Same project. Where is the Heron Thread?^^
OO7 did you get rid of it?

This thread here IS the Heron Tower thread.

All the renderings were put in the Seattle Development Discussion thread. Not sure why no one ever put any here.

I re-named the thread.

Mahalo

Lets have some renderings then....Bam!!

http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/32408/2001171227339238707_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001171227339238707)

http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/32983/2001174546422461127_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001174546422461127)

http://aycu26.webshots.com/image/31145/2001172511962379944_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001172511962379944)

http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/32719/2001139937699853608_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001139937699853608)

All images are from www.ilarch.com

Love it.

Id like to see different angles of the roof. I hope it lights up at night too and makes the skyline look huge!

thanks for posting these in this thread. was there one more, from a crazy-low angle? i'll check the seattle thread and repost here. or maybe it was on ssp?

Heron Tower looks fabulous with monorail line next to it! Can't wait to see it to get built!

5th and Stewart site has sold for $30 Million

http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/36792/2003042039401813579_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003042039401813579)


Article in DJC says: " A 12,960-square-foot Seattle parking lot where Multi Capital of New York plans to build a 46-story mixed-use project has sold for $30 million, according to public records."

Great news... Things are moving ahead.

^^ Great updates. :)

5th and Stewart site has sold for $30 Million

http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/36792/2003042039401813579_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003042039401813579)


Article in DJC says: " A 12,960-square-foot Seattle parking lot where Multi Capital of New York plans to build a 46-story mixed-use project has sold for $30 million, according to public records."

Great news... Things are moving ahead.

Are you serious???? Tha article stated that was the previous owners plans for the site. They have sold the site now.....who knows what the new owners plans are? They might build something completly different or not at all......in terms of the Heron Tower, this is very bad news!

Depends on who the buyer is and what they plan to do. The sale price suggests the MUP was factored in.

I could not read the whole article. I only got a taste so it sounded good to me but if things are as you say, then this is bad news. We will have to wait and see.

Are you serious???? Tha article stated that was the previous owners plans for the site. They have sold the site now.....who knows what the new owners plans are? They might build something completly different or not at all......in terms of the Heron Tower, this is very bad news!

was thinking the same thing...where's my bottle of valium? maybe the Petron too...this is depressing...

$30 million for 13,000 sq ft sounds pretty damn high to me. Maybe this new company bought the designs as well as the MUP. So perhaps the buyers are the ones taking over the costs/risks of building the dang thing?

No need to panic just yet... Unless the article said they're not going with the current plan..?

Anyone whop buys a site at that price HAS to do something with it - I take the rising prices as a sign something will go on it. Similar to housing developers caught w/too much lansd. Better to build and break even than not build and take a huge hit on the land. As a % of TDC, even 2300/sf can be overcome, given the location.

That's too bad that Multi Capital is pulling out. Everyone was so excited by the designs of the Heron Tower. Hopefully the new landowner will move forward with a similar design. Anyone know if Multi Capital is trying to sell the Pagoda Tower site as well?

A sale doesn't necessarily mean the seller is pulling out. Some sales are internal.

I could not read the whole article. I only got a taste so it sounded good to me but if things are as you say, then this is bad news. We will have to wait and see.
I read the whole article in the library today. The article said it was unknown what the relationship between the buyer and the seller was. I think the buyer was also a consortium of mostly NYC-based interests. Since Multi Capital is also out of NYC, maybe they know each other and have been working together on the project, or something. But maybe not. We'll have to wait and see.

It all sounds ok to me. this project is a huge deal. I Think Its probably internal as mhays suggested. We will see Heron be built. This building is to big of a deal to disappear from the drawing board, everyone loves it.

Better to build and break even than not build and take a huge hit on the land.

You can't sell land for a profit???

I thought I would post this because of the maps and webcam. I know everyone knows this site but here is a quick link to check out the maps.
http://www.escalamidtown.com/ In the Location Tab there is a great Interactive map to view the area..When the cam is up and running it great to see the progress and the property next door where these two babies will be built.

Ok so I know that its 2am but I was thinking Where the F*$# is midtown?? Do we even have a midtown in Seattle? Clicked on this link and was shocked that it was really in Downtown. Are developers creating whole new neighborhoods now??

First time I heard that term was with the Escala Project. Something devised to give their locale cache. Its the area between Belltown and the Shopping District but not quite into the Denny Triangle.

First time I heard that term was with the Escala Project. Something devised to give their locale cache. Its the area between Belltown and the Shopping District but not quite into the Denny Triangle.
Its trying to be clever, but I hope that the name doesn't stick. DT Seattle is too small to have yet another neighborhood in it IMO. And and fake one at that!!

:puke:

Yeah I didn't heard of this term, Midtown until Escala project came up then after that, it become somewhat common for that neighborhood. I think these developers use that term to describe buyers about the location of downtown Seattle area.

The name "midtown" was coined by Realogics marketing to describe the area between the retail core, belltown, and the denny triangle. No one outside of the real estate marketing ppl actually uses that name to call this area. There was actually an article in the PI recently about this.

Marketing campaigns have worked for the Denny Triangle (formerly unnamed) and Belltown (most of it formerly the Denny Regrade). The jury is out on "Uptown" (I'll say Lower Queen Anne until they pry it from my cold dead hands) and West Edge (five years in...very slow to take hold).

But those were/are neighborhood-wide collaborative efforts, at least involving a variety of stakeholders.

In the case of "Midtown" or the "Park District", they're purely condo salespeople trying to brand their products. Therefore both will have an automatic uncoolness and nobody will use them.

Still, Midtown would be a fine name for the area around Escala. As we build 400' buildings between Stewart and Lenora, or whatever, it'll start feeling like a junior part of the CBD rather than 240' Belltown. It's also an area with more uses of regional significance than other parts of Belltown...starting with the Westin.

In the case of "Midtown" or the "Park District", they're purely condo salespeople trying to brand their products. Therefore both will have an automatic uncoolness and nobody will use them.


Thank goodness!

You can't sell land for a profit???

...not likely at 2300 per sf, which is only, what, double the price paid for any other piece of downtown land on a per developable SF basis. Ran some quick #s and figure that based on their stated plan they'd need $875/sf for the condos (200) $300 per room at 70% occupancy and $65/sf for the retail to justify the land price. Pretty crazy

land doesn't appreciate???

land doesn't appreciate???

Land appreciating doesn't mean you pay much more than what it is worth to buy it hoping you will someday break even when you sell it.

I find it hard to believe that this land sale was done so that they can sit on the property and do nothing.

yeah, just like houses! up, up up forever! :) seriously, though, my experience is that land prices are volatile, subject to what you can build on it in the market within a fairly defined period of time. Land prices are up 200% in many seattle multi-family zones relative to 5 years ago due to the hot market. In socal's inland empire, land prices are selling for 30% of what they did two years ago. ...Land prices should hold up fairly well in DT seattle, because the product to be built tends to be a wants driven rather than needs driven good and there one truism in the economy right now, its that the rich are getting richer. that said, they paid double the market, so there's little place for it to appreciate to barring a dramatic change in construction technology.

Downtown Seattle's land market also benefits from being suitable for numerous uses, particularly offices, condos, apartments, and hotels -- all of which go up and down, but not at the same time. Biotech is also significant on the edges. Even medical offices and hospital campus expansions can be a factor.

ease up partners....I was being sarcastic...

Looks like Multi Capital or whoever owns this land now has acquired the Avis garage that sat between the two properties.

http://web1.seattle.gov/dpd/luib/Notice.aspx?BID=281&NID=7336

^^ Happy happy joy joy

Ooh, I like that news :) This could be a pretty killer project now, with the two towers connected. Nice!

Maybe they'll make it bigger! :banana:

Would be awesome to have a twin towers version of that thing.

Maybe they'll make it bigger! :banana:

Would be awesome to have a twin towers version of that thing.

bah, too many twin towers. Already have the Insignia towers, 1200 stewart, the westins, the 2nd and virginia ones. How bout 2 complimentary towers instead of ANOTHER set of twins?

I agree. No twins right across the street from westin twins. From the renderings it looks like they would be different from each other.

Well, it could be worse - downtown Seattle could have as many twin towers as Bellevue!

I agree. No twins right across the street from westin twins. From the renderings it looks like they would be different from each other.

Renderings? I haven't seen the rendering for the "Pagoda Tower" which is the tower going up where Icon Grill is at. Where did you see this ?

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t170/iamkontroll/heron_pagoda_tower.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t170/iamkontroll/heron_pagoda_tower_2.jpg
Here's a view between the Westin and the currently under construction Escala
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t170/iamkontroll/heron_pagoda_tower_3.jpg


Website: http://seattlecondosandlofts.com/2008/01/new-look-for-heron-pagoda-towers

Nice! =)

hmm i liked the other tower design.....but these are good.

Wow! I'm in love with that. To bad it wasn'tt two seperate towers, but this is amazing. The base is so New Yorkish with the big billboard. This looks absolutely fantastic!!! Thanks for the great find!

These are fantastic!!!

it's cool. it looks like that block is turning into a great wall of glass though. i wish there was just a little more color in the design.

nice design, looks good.

Whoa! Is there going to be any major retail component here?

Very nice. And great energy for the area north of the Retail District.

I merged this with the other thread. Please use existing threads for posts about buildings.

Thanks for the renderings, however. Looks great!

I like it. They remind me of the Time Warner Center in NY :okay:

I was just going to say the same thing. Im not sure if itll deract from the westin towers or not, but i like it.

Do you think this development might make Westin update their towers? They are beginning to look ummm a bit dated. Even a clean up of the exterior would be good.

I really hope this project gets built during this current cycle but they may be a little late to the party. I'm looking forward to hearing who they select to operate the hotel portion. I believe both towers will have hotel rooms below the condos.

On separate note, what is up with all the twin tower condos in the area?


Heron/Pagoda Towers
1200 Stewart
Insignia
6th & Lenora
2nd & Virginia
Bellevue Towers
Bravern Residences
Washington Square
Westin Hotel
Concorde
Ellington

I wonder if Westin will try to operate these hotel rooms in conjunction with their current hotel (think tunnel under 5th avenue).

Hear me out on this one. I know that Convention planners want "Headquarter Hotels" that have at least 1200 rooms for their delegates. Currently, only the Sheraton has this capability with their new tower. If the Westin got an additional 250-300 rooms, they too would qualify.

I'm not saying that this will happen, but with the proximity of the project, its at least feasible.

Hear me out on this one. I know that Convention planners want "Headquarter Hotels" that have at least 1200 rooms for their delegates. Currently, only the Sheraton has this capability with their new tower. If the Westin got an additional 250-300 rooms, they too would qualify.


This is a little off topic but in response to above, I noticed this on the DPD website for the bus station at 8th & Stewart - 51-story, 1,200 room hotel:
http://web1.seattle.gov/DPD/permitstatus/Project.aspx?id=3008299&3008449&t=4

woah! we were just talking about that spot.

This is a little off topic but in response to above, I noticed this on the DPD website for the bus station at 8th & Stewart - 51-story, 1,200 room hotel:
http://web1.seattle.gov/DPD/permitstatus/Project.aspx?id=3008299&3008449&t=4

WOW! That is huge. I believe R.C. Hedreen owns this property. Very interesting news indeed.

Interesting! But how come there's no date listed for the application date? And from the property timeline, this appears before 2001... Or am I reading it wrong? The listed architect (Spencer Decker) didn't show up on any google searches either. So many questions!

Interesting! But how come there's no date listed for the application date? And from the property timeline, this appears before 2001... Or am I reading it wrong? The listed architect (Spencer Decker) didn't show up on any google searches either. So many questions!

According to this, there's a tentative early design guidance meeting scheduled for March 11, 2008
http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/planning/design_review_program/project_reviews/upcoming/default.asp#2122

Omg! What a coincidence! 51 floors!! I believe this would make it the tallest hotel tower in Seattle. Very interesting indeed I am looking forward for more news.

I'll create a new thread for this so we don't completely hijack the Heron Tower thread.

I'll create a new thread for this so we don't completely hijack the Heron Tower thread.

Referring back to the Heron towers, does anybody think that there is any chance of the Westin taking over the hotel operations?

Double post.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t170/iamkontroll/heron_pagoda_tower.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t170/iamkontroll/heron_pagoda_tower_2.jpg
Here's a view between the Westin and the currently under construction Escala
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t170/iamkontroll/heron_pagoda_tower_3.jpg


Website: http://seattlecondosandlofts.com/2008/01/new-look-for-heron-pagoda-towers

I'm impressed with the Manhattan feel of these towers, but a bit disappointed that they sterilized them some to appease the planning board. The older rendering was much stronger. But we know how that goes. I'll be happy with these two beauties if they get built.:banana: Is it just me or is all the Twin towers have something to do with the building codes here in King County? Land restrictions or height restrictions. I guess many cities have twin towers nowadays.

WOW!!! Amazing rendering! Exactly what Seattle need for! :)

BellevueBoy, you're right about tons of twin towers are going on around here in Seattle and some in Bellevue. I noticed that for a while... I think height restriction affects more construction of twin towers to meet up the demands. Check Calargy, Canada, they got tons of twin towers and they got built because of height restriction.

I LOVE These renderings!!

IS it still going to be 550 feet or is it shrinking? It seems like a lot of developments end up being right around 500 feet which will make everything the same height.

Looks like 550' to me. There appears to be a roofline at 500' with architectural features / mechanical above that.

In the new illustrations, are those solar cells on the roof?

I like the new rendering as well. I really like the atrium's on the top of each building that I imagine will be lit at night. Thank god it's not another box. I'm so tired of flat roof lines.

Oooh I never thought about roof lighting. Im a sucker for it.

I like the new rendering as well. I really like the atrium's on the top of each building that I imagine will be lit at night. Thank god it's not another box. I'm so tired of flat roof lines.

I feel ya.

Somebody ring a bell! We have solid news on this project and at 550 feet tall we have another giant!! Another 2011 completion date. Lots is going to open that year!

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/350908_towers12.html

Somebody ring a bell! We have solid news on this project and at 550 feet tall we have another giant!! Another 2011 completion date. Lots is going to open that year!

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/350908_towers12.html

break ground next year = break ground in 2010

...and they are photovoltaic cells and wind turbines. Good for them.

That's interesting that the south tower is all residential and the north is hotel/condo, I would think it'd be the other way around so the hotel would be closer to shopping and the convention center.

That's interesting that the south tower is all residential and the north is hotel/condo, I would think it'd be the other way around so the hotel would be closer to shopping and the convention center.

Could sun exposure have anything to do with it? The south facing building might get more sun and be a bigger draw for buyers whereas hotel goers aren't going to ask for a sunny side of the building. I dunno, just throwing it out there.

break ground next year = break ground in 2010

Projects often break ground when advertised.

I can imagine them not wanting to miss out on the next round of sales (with AVA and others).

From the PI:

The project is budgeted at $900 million -- "give or take $100 million," Carlin said. Multi Group of New York is the sole financier.

Does this make this the most expensive building ever built in Seattle?

From the PI:

The project is budgeted at $900 million -- "give or take $100 million," Carlin said. Multi Group of New York is the sole financier.

Does this make this the most expensive building ever built in Seattle?

Wow. I didn't realize it was that expensive to build a 43 story tower.

Seattle is going to look SO crazy with so many projects starting between next month and next year! Dubai II!




and I love this:

Ishmael Leyva, of New York was chosen as architect, "not because we don't like Seattle designers, but because we feel Seattle is ready for something that's more edgy, more 'out there,' " Carlin said.

"This is a sophisticated design that says Seattle looks not toward Vancouver but toward Chicago and New York," he said.

"It also says Seattle is ready for higher density downtown, which has happened in Vancouver and in Portland."

Portland's downtown has nothing like the density of Seattle's.

Wow. I didn't realize it was that expensive to build a 43 story tower.

Well it is TWO 550' towers. $450 million a piece sounds about right considering how crappy the dollar is worth (and will be the next couple years.)

Well it is TWO 550' towers. $450 million a piece sounds about right considering how crappy the dollar is worth (and will be the next couple years.)

Oops, I was thinking this was the 5th and Columbia thread for some reason... lol

So this thing will have an eleven story pedestal. I've got to believe this will be a major retail opportunity. To all those companies that say there's nowhere good to be placed - here it is! I envision a major anchor (or two) and another major shopping center. Something along the lines of San Francisco's newest would be awesome!!

So this thing will have an eleven story pedestal. I've got to believe this will be a major retail opportunity. To all those companies that say there's nowhere good to be placed - here it is! I envision a major anchor (or two) and another major shopping center. Something along the lines of San Francisco's newest would be awesome!!

From the PI article:

The still-preliminary plans call for an 11-story base, facing Fifth Avenue between Virginia and Stewart streets and offering retail at street level. The base's second and third floors, at the level of the monorail, would contain hotel ballrooms, meeting rooms and a pool and spa.

Retail would only be street level, not a multi level shopping center type development. Yes, a net increase of retail in the city, but I don't see a significant increase.

Projects often break ground when advertised.

I beg to differ. The following projects should have broken ground by now if they had stuck with the original start date they announced:

Colman Center
Ava
The Martin
Arthouse
Skygarden
Icon Tower
7th and Westlake
1 Hotel (started about 2 years late, now on hold)

I'm sure there's more but I just thought of those off the top of my head. I know the dates they give are very preliminary but I'm trying to prove that most projects don't meet the ground breaking dates that they announce prematurely.

Read my post again. I said "Projects often break ground when advertised." This is true and not debatable.

That doesn't mean that none don't break ground, or that none start late.

Read my post again. I said "Projects often break ground when advertised." This is true and not debatable.

That doesn't mean that none don't break ground, or that none start late.

I'm arguing your use of the term "often". I think "Projects sometime break ground when advertised" is a more accurate statement. I'd say that over half of the projects currently under construction did not meet their advertised groundbreaking date. I'm sure that most forumers will agree with me here since we've all seen so many projects announce start dates that come and go with no activity.

Portland's downtown has nothing like the density of Seattle's.


Thank you. I was wondering how Portland got tossed in there... unless he just means residential density, and even that seems suspect, even if one were to include the Pearl as part of 'downtown Portland'.

I don't believe Portland comes close in residential density either.

I'm arguing your use of the term "often". I think "Projects sometime break ground when advertised" is a more accurate statement. I'd say that over half of the projects currently under construction did not meet their advertised groundbreaking date. I'm sure that most forumers will agree with me here since we've all seen so many projects announce start dates that come and go with no activity.

Your original implication is right that a start date announced during an early DR juncture is often not realized. But I'd guess that far more start in the year projected (or three-four months late) than start one year late. There's nothing magic about one year. If there's a significant delay, the project is just as likely to hang out multiple years or never get built.

Once a formal announcement is made, after the team is formed and the start date is much closer, the record tends to be much better.

I don't believe Portland comes close in residential density either.

There are areas in Seattle that pass 50,000 people/sq mile, right? If I remember correctly, I don't know if Portland has anywhere that passes 30,000 people/sq mile at the moment. Could be completely wrong though.

I beg to differ. The following projects should have broken ground by now if they had stuck with the original start date they announced:

Colman Center
Ava
The Martin
Arthouse
Skygarden
Icon Tower
7th and Westlake
1 Hotel (started about 2 years late, now on hold)

I'm sure there's more but I just thought of those off the top of my head. I know the dates they give are very preliminary but I'm trying to prove that most projects don't meet the ground breaking dates that they announce prematurely.

7th and westlake is dead......the Martin is basicaly dead, colman is on hold until further notice, the arthouse is probably dead as well...good examples....

There are areas in Seattle that pass 50,000 people/sq mile, right? If I remember correctly, I don't know if Portland has anywhere that passes 30,000 people/sq mile at the moment. Could be completely wrong though.

Our densest census tract in 2000 was 90 acres on Capitol Hill at 44,500/sm, followed by a tract in the U-District (including Greek Row) that was 42,500/sm. We have localized areas that are substantially denser than either -- around Western & Clay in Belltown, and the north half of First Hill -- but the tract boundaries don't follow.

I believe you're right about Portland's densest tracts in 2000. I suspect the Pearl might score higher in 2008. But for all its greatness as a city, Portland just doesn't have areas of sustained high residential densities. Its downtown population is ok and growing but not huge. Adding SoWa actually hurts the density figure because adding a handful of towers means adding a few hundred acres.

PS, I'll be in Portland on business in 4.5 hours! Looking forward to it. Love Portland.

are you going to be checking out the site of your new PDX office in the Pearl???

Our office has been at 9th & Washington for many years. Perhaps you're thinking of another company?

no, I''m not all.....are you are telling me that I know something that you don't about your own company.....

I got one up on you now....

Everytime I go to downtown Portland, I don't really see many people walk on the street. It look somewhat quiet not dead to me. Some part of downtown Portland are busy but not busy as downtown Seattle does. I'd love to see one of these days, downtown Portland become busy area like downtown Seattle. Love Portland too. :)

Back to the topic,

I didn't realize that project worth 900 million dollars for just two 43 stories twin towers. I suspect it is very costly to dig next to another skyscraper (Escala) since it is very deep. I think that is why it is expensive project.

I didn't realize that project worth 900 million dollars for just two 43 stories twin towers. I suspect it is very costly to dig next to another skyscraper (Escala) since it is very deep. I think that is why it is expensive project.

I dont see this project looking anything less than the money spent on it! I trust those NYC developers to do something amazing. Im building a skin-skyscraper just thinking about it.

I am an East facing home buyer at Escala and attended the design review meeting for this project last night. Apparently this block is zoned DOC-2 (mostly office use) and has no tower spacing requirements, although the block immediately to the North is zoned DMC and would require 80 feet of spacing. This means that the twin towers will be built an alley width, or about 20 feet, from the Eastern face of Escala. This is the same situation that residents of Cosmopolitan are facing.

I was surprised by the Design Review Board's lack of concern with the eradication of light, air space, privacy and view for both the Escala building and the proposed tower. John Midby, the Escala developer, and an attorney were also present to make clear the severe impact this building will have on Escala. The board said that it's not really their position to preserve individual views, and rightly so. But it seems to me when we're talking about 60-80 residential units that some consideration should be given to it.

Also, the architect, Ismael Leyva, was present to offer revised designs of the base of the tower as suggested by the Board. The height of the base has been cut from around 170' down to 140'. This will eliminate the multi-level retail environment that was originally proposed, which is too bad, since the initial design looked very vibrant. But a 140' tall base still seems enormous. Basically that will put a wall in front of EVERY unit left to right at Escala, up to about the 12th floor. Part of the wall will, however, be a "living wall" with plants and an irrigation system.

At the end of the meeting I spoke with a member of Multi-Capital, the financier of the Heron/Pagoda Towers and I asked what made them confident that a nearly billion dollar project would succeed in this real estate climate. He didn't have an answer, but according to the recent PI article they feel the recession will have blown over by the time the buildings are complete. He also said that they didn't really want to build both towers, but the city owned both properties (the parking lot and vacant retail spaces on 5th) and wanted to sell them as a package. So they purchased both and decided to build on both. I find it very strange that the developer has chosen to finance and construct a building that they didn't initially conceive. It will have no views for many West facing units which I imagine would make them a very tough sell (especially at $1000/SF).

I know mhays will say you should have done your research, and I guess he's right. At the time I purchased my unit I was aware of Heron Tower, which seemed like a great addition to the block. Pagoda Tower, however, came much later and disrupts 75% of the East face of Escala. I find it unconscionable to allow this kind of density because it's just not warranted in Seattle. (I don't intend this post to start flame war, just expressing my thoughts).

I feel for you and your frustration - especially since your building hasn't even been completed and your view is already in jeopardy.

At the same time, someone here said it well that when you live deep in the heart of downtown, for the most part no view is ever assured (given time). You should be excited to live in the heart of it all. At the same time, keep your drapes closed. :(

I still wish they would put more color in the design of these towers. In isolation these towers are just fine, but I do not want Seattle to succumb to Vancouver's light blue glass box look.

A Pacific Place type of retail component underneath heron & pagoda with a glass dome in between the two towers would've been awesome.

That's too bad about the loss views at Escala. I guess that answers my question about why the hotel was in the Pagoda and not the Heron tower. The residential units of Pagoda will be starting at floors 20+ so most of the condo buyers won't be losing their views. I'm disappointed that the multi-level retail base isn't going to happen, that would've been nice.

Would it have? Do we really need another Pacific Place right next door to Pacific Place AND Westlake?

Would it have? Do we really need another Pacific Place right next door to Pacific Place AND Westlake?

big retailers are complaining about a lack of space in DT Seattle...

I agree, Our city needs more shopping destinations. Having it nearby pacific place would only help the area. We need more space available for larger retailers.

I am an East facing home buyer at Escala and attended the design review meeting for this project last night. Apparently this block is zoned DOC-2 (mostly office use) and has no tower spacing requirements, although the block immediately to the North is zoned DMC and would require 80 feet of spacing. This means that the twin towers will be built an alley width, or about 20 feet, from the Eastern face of Escala. This is the same situation that residents of Cosmopolitan are facing.

I was surprised by the Design Review Board's lack of concern with the eradication of light, air space, privacy and view for both the Escala building and the proposed tower. John Midby, the Escala developer, and an attorney were also present to make clear the severe impact this building will have on Escala. The board said that it's not really their position to preserve individual views, and rightly so. But it seems to me when we're talking about 60-80 residential units that some consideration should be given to it.

Also, the architect, Ismael Leyva, was present to offer revised designs of the base of the tower as suggested by the Board. The height of the base has been cut from around 170' down to 140'. This will eliminate the multi-level retail environment that was originally proposed, which is too bad, since the initial design looked very vibrant. But a 140' tall base still seems enormous. Basically that will put a wall in front of EVERY unit left to right at Escala, up to about the 12th floor. Part of the wall will, however, be a "living wall" with plants and an irrigation system.

At the end of the meeting I spoke with a member of Multi-Capital, the financier of the Heron/Pagoda Towers and I asked what made them confident that a nearly billion dollar project would succeed in this real estate climate. He didn't have an answer, but according to the recent PI article they feel the recession will have blown over by the time the buildings are complete. He also said that they didn't really want to build both towers, but the city owned both properties (the parking lot and vacant retail spaces on 5th) and wanted to sell them as a package. So they purchased both and decided to build on both. I find it very strange that the developer has chosen to finance and construct a building that they didn't initially conceive. It will have no views for many West facing units which I imagine would make them a very tough sell (especially at $1000/SF).

I know mhays will say you should have done your research, and I guess he's right. At the time I purchased my unit I was aware of Heron Tower, which seemed like a great addition to the block. Pagoda Tower, however, came much later and disrupts 75% of the East face of Escala. I find it unconscionable to allow this kind of density because it's just not warranted in Seattle. (I don't intend this post to start flame war, just expressing my thoughts).

appreciate your thoughts, you seem very level headed about the situation

Would it have? Do we really need another Pacific Place right next door to Pacific Place AND Westlake?

Yes. We need one or two of them. There is a long list of retailers/restaurants that are interested to open their businesses in downtown Seattle. Retail Core doesn't have enough room for more retailers and restaurants to come in. Downtown Bellevue is taking advantage of this opportunity to attract high end retailers/restaurants because they have more rooms for it while downtown Seattle has limited spaces for retailers and restaurants.

I agree, Our city needs more shopping destinations. Having it nearby pacific place would only help the area. We need more space available for larger retailers.

I agree. That would be nice if we have rooms for Crate & Barrell, Saks Fifth Avenue, Best Buy, Target, and any retailers what any condo dwellers would need.

As mentioned in one of the blog entries about this project, the architect was part of the team that designed the Time Warner Center in Manhattan at the Columbia Circle. The TWC is similar in concept in that its a twin tower project with a large atrium at the base connecting the towers. It includes office, condos, high end retail, a Whole Foods store, and a Mandarin Oriental hotel. If this project turns out anything like the TWC, I'll be ecstatic.

Here are some new renderings from Ben's blog (http://seattlecondosandlofts.com/).

http://seattlecondosandlofts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/heron_pagoda.png

http://seattlecondosandlofts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/heron_pagodo_night.png

http://seattlecondosandlofts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/heron_pagoda_base.png

http://seattlecondosandlofts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/heron_pagoda_roof.png

http://seattlecondosandlofts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/heron_escala.png

^^ Oooo That's sexy! :)

I agree with the need for more retail, but it ought to be more spread out. You know, bring some of that sweet mall loving to somewhere else that could use the pedestrian traffic. For instance, the Magnificent Mile in Chicago has a few multistory retail complexes, but they aren't literally next door to each other. It spreads out pedestrian traffic and street activity for a long ways.

I agree with the need for more retail, but it ought to be more spread out. You know, bring some of that sweet mall loving to somewhere else that could use the pedestrian traffic. For instance, the Magnificent Mile in Chicago has a few multistory retail complexes, but they aren't literally next door to each other. It spreads out pedestrian traffic and street activity for a long ways.

I totally agree! It is seen like City of Seattle want to keep it together in Retail Core only area not spread it out of the zone. I can see one or two vertical shopping malls to be built on Westlake near Whole Food Co or next to Public Pike Market.

If buildings couldn't get more sexier. . . . . . . .They just did. Damn that's hella sexy! Will be one of the best additions to the Skyline!

Ooo I like! :banana:

This is SO nyc.

Its going to look so cool in the skyline.

I think twin towers' glass facades will be much similar to Bellevue towers but different colors and materials.

This project and 5th and Columbia are the Sweetest. I think having retail spread out is great but at least this will be a block or two from Pike and Pine. It does enlarge the Retail Core. And the best part is that it will hide the Damn Pickle Barrels next door. :lol:

I like that this project and 5th and Columbia will get great press and will in turn give seattle architecture a swift kick in the rear to step up design quality. Not that it hasnt been improving, but it will make it almost embarrassing to put up a plain box and expect excitement over it.

Developers don't need excitement as much as permission, and designs that maximize income vs cost. Economics and Seattle's zoning and entitlement processes drive what you see built.

I totally agree! It is seen like City of Seattle want to keep it together in Retail Core only area not spread it out of the zone. I can see one or two vertical shopping malls to be built on Westlake near Whole Food Co or next to Public Pike Market.

I've resisted doing this for many months now, but . . .

With all due respect, I simply cannot understand your message, because of your grammar. It makes no sense. What are you trying to say?

It's "Pike Place Market" or "Pike Place Public Market".

I've resisted doing this for many months now, but . . .

With all due respect, I simply cannot understand your message, because of your grammar. It makes no sense. What are you trying to say?

It's "Pike Place Market" or "Pike Place Public Market".

English is my second language. Please try to understand what I am trying to say not "HOW" I say it. I'm doing my best to have "perfect" English so anyone can understand my points.

I was trying to say that I can see a vertical shopping mall (multi stories shopping mall) to be built across from Pike Public Market. Second one can be built near Whole Food Co on Westlake.

That last reply is much more legible. I think both ASL and typos come in to play here. If you give it a quick proof read before posting and catch those simple grammar errors, as you seem to have done here, it communicates the idea much better.

That last reply is much more legible. I think both ASL and typos come in to play here. If you give it a quick proof read before posting and catch those simple grammar errors, as you seem to have done here, it communicates the idea much better.

Yes. ASL and English have same vocabulary and both have different grammar structure. Sometime I have hard time to separate English and ASL grammars when I write any posts.

I've resisted doing this for many months now, but . . .

With all due respect, I simply cannot understand your message, because of your grammar. It makes no sense. What are you trying to say?

It's "Pike Place Market" or "Pike Place Public Market".

:lol: Haha. Word.

:lol: Haha. Word.

For the uninformed, according to urbandictionary.com: traditionally, in the hip hop cultural world, the word "up" succeeds the word "word". this combination, of what seems like two unrelated words, actually is a form of acknowledgment, or approval. Some synonyms include, "I concur." and "Yes, i agree with that"

Project updates?

This is the type of building Seattle deserves.:)

Project updates?

This is the type of building Seattle deserves.:)
According city planner Bruce Rips (Bruce.Rips@Seattle.Gov), who has primary responsibility for this project for Seattle DPD, "the applicant has acquired the adjoining parcels and has increased the scope of the project. It now has two towers with a podium level below. Tuesday night the Downtown Design Review Board reviewed the proposal. The applicant may now apply for a Master Use Permit. There will be at least one more design review meeting in the future. "

According city planner Bruce Rips (Bruce.Rips@Seattle.Gov), who has primary responsibility for this project for Seattle DPD, "the applicant has acquired the adjoining parcels and has increased the scope of the project. It now has two towers with a podium level below. Tuesday night the Downtown Design Review Board reviewed the proposal. The applicant may now apply for a Master Use Permit. There will be at least one more design review meeting in the future. "

Thats good right?!@?! :)

Thats good right?!@?! :)

I guess the answer is Yes! Just one more analysis before applying for a master use permit. So, it is still on track.

So I hear from my trusty source this project is 100% for sure getting built. :cheers:

Jessejb - can you explain what your source said that makes it so clear the project is a go? As you may have seen in my earlier post, I have a vested interest in this not getting built. They don't have an MUP yet, they don't have a construction loan, and at the design review meeting on Feb 12 the board discussed requiring a complete redesign due to the impact on Escala. This wasn't mandated, but will be pushed at the next meeting.

If it's true that lenders are now requiring 40-50% PSA's before they will even grant a construction loan (as someone posted about AVA and I've heard from others as well), it seems unlikely that they'll reach that soon. They'd need to sell 250 of their proposed 500 units which will be in the $1000/SF range. So if you can explain I'm very curious to know. Thanks.

So I hear from my trusty source this project is 100% for sure getting built. :cheers:

Great! I understood there were some zoning issues that needed to be ironed out. I'll take a drink myself! :cheers:

Great! I understood there were some zoning issues that needed to be ironed out. I'll take a drink myself! :cheers:

Oops! Wrong project. m))

Jessejb - can you explain what your source said that makes it so clear the project is a go? As you may have seen in my earlier post, I have a vested interest in this not getting built. They don't have an MUP yet, they don't have a construction loan, and at the design review meeting on Feb 12 the board discussed requiring a complete redesign due to the impact on Escala. This wasn't mandated, but will be pushed at the next meeting.

If it's true that lenders are now requiring 40-50% PSA's before they will even grant a construction loan (as someone posted about AVA and I've heard from others as well), it seems unlikely that they'll reach that soon. They'd need to sell 250 of their proposed 500 units which will be in the $1000/SF range. So if you can explain I'm very curious to know. Thanks.



Just someone I know in the industry...he kinda gives me heads up on city development and hes almost always spot on. I bought him a beer for this one.

I guess the answer is Yes! Just one more analysis before applying for a master use permit. So, it is still on track.

Sometimes. The developers' wait while everyone gets their pound of flesh during review, this waiting often inflates the cost of the project that can lead to cancellation entirely. I will be bummed if this project dies in committee review.

Jessejb, I'd be curious to get more detail from your "source." Taken at first glance this project seeems less financially feasible than others having difficulty, and entitlements seem to a question mark. A year ago when more funny money was sloshing around, it might have made sense for a developer to pay absurb price for land built the most extravagant project in the city. Now, not so much.

Some developers face lower hurdles than others.

Flotown - that's exactly what I'm getting at. The expense of this project just seems absurd in 2008. $900 million dollars (which is probably a low estimate given rising construction costs) is an enormous investment, and I would guess that would make it the most expensive residential development in Seattle ever. Is this the right time for that?

And perhaps they do face fewer hurdles, but there's still the question of demand. Look at Escala for example - another luxury development with similar $/SF. They've sold about 30% in just under a year. One Residences and AVA both seem to be stalled for now - clearly they're not flying off the shelf. So I don't understand the push to bring on 500 more luxury units right now.

Jesse - check you PM.

The question is timing. Which project is (or will) come into the market at the right time?

If the real estate market bottoms towards the end of this year, there will be a trough before values (nationwide) begin climbing again. Escala will come on line during this trough - which is fine.

In three to four years when the market has returned, somewhat if not fully, I'm thinking Heron will be there at the right time with few other competing projects at this time. Only other major residential condo in the downtown core (others outlying, I know)appears to be AVA which may or may not have stalled.

I'm sure this will spark debate.

Jim - I take your comment to mean that, should Heron begin late 2009/early 2010 it will complete right around the time that the housing market is beginning to stabilize/appreciate again? I do agree that this is when we will see the housing market return to normal, and this is the same thinking on the developer's part as quoted in the recent PI article. But does that mean that they'd be willing/able to finance and build the whole thing with a "2009's market" worth of pre-sales? Can they bank on selling 80-90% (or whatever) of the building AFTER it's completed? Perhaps this is the way things were done before the housing boom?

dlong, to answer your question. No they can't, IMHO. I wish I had more time and I'd run the exercise - to figure total downtown demand for high-end condos, guess at a market capture rate and figure an absorption rate for the project.

Then the fun with timing begins. The critical path is entitlements --->desiogn level needed for PSAs-->pre-sales absorption =40-50%. So, we could map out a timeline something like as follows:

Design review approval/MUP submittal - April 2008
MUP approval & Con. Docs - October 2008 (November?)
Presales At "x" units/month - assume 10, which likely is a very high number - 25 months of absorption to hit 50% = October 2010 construction start
24 month construction scheduled = October 2012 delivery

And that seems like a best case scenario, I think the absorption # at 10/month is aggressive and timing will likely be pushed back by DR Board.

Did I really just write 10/month as an example there? I realize the absurdity of this guess given the price points. at 1000/SF maybe half of that would be a better guess. So, delivery 2014??

Geez! Remember the good old days when they couldn't build them fast enough?!

Flotown, thanks for the timeline. I'd like to point out that a 3+ year construction schedule seems more likely. Look at Olive 8 or Escala for example. Olive 8 is what, 2.5 years in and another year to go at least? Escala is 13 months in and just above ground level. 31 floors to go by my count! Heron will have to dig nearly as deep as Escala but much wider - the length of a full city block. Also apparently the tie-backs used for the Escala garage will interfere with the Heron garage and they will have to work around this, however that can be accomplished. I'm betting it's 16-18 months for excavation, shoring and the building the parking garage. Then once they hit street level they're working in pretty close proximity to Escala, the Monorail and the Westins. It definitely seems like a construction challenge.

Flotown - can you elaborate on this line: The critical path is entitlements --->design level needed for PSAs-->pre-sales absorption =40-50%.

Particularly "design level needed for PSAs." Are you referring to how far into the design process they'll need to be to have floorplans and therefore begin selling?

Excavations can go a hell of a lot quicker than Escala's depending on a variety of factors.

dlong78- yes, that's what I meant.

There's a little more complexity to it I suppose, as pre-sales deposits can be taken after the completion of schematic design, but a further level of design is required for construction docs needed to get a bid from the contractor. Some developers would prefer to wait for a bid before deciding unit plans that might change should further value engineering need to occur. Short story, presales might need to wait a few more months for the construction contract and subsequential construction loan closing.

you may aready know this, just laying it out for the board.

For a project like this, the general contractor is typically hired on a negotiated basis (based on qualifications, approach, business terms, chemistry, etc.) during concept or schematic design, or at least design development. A good general can greatly improve the accuracy of the cost estimate and provide a lot of input during design.

Update - The project is nearly dead. It appears (because I am looking at the O/M) that Multi-Capital is trying to sell the land.

but who knows some crazy developer could resurect the project.....

^
Oh fvck!!

...the national (lack of)financing for condo projects will have ramifications here. The bottom hasn't been found yet in our economy. I'm not expecting a turn around for another 18 mos. at the earliest. If it hasn't started/has funding, and it is housing, it won't probably start. Just my .02

this project never was seriously moving forward in the first place.....it was at leats 5 years out to begin with.....

this project never was seriously moving forward in the first place.....it was at leats 5 years out to begin with.....

Yeah it was just a series of false starts and now it's fourth-and-very-long and their trying to punt.

That land sale was at something like 2,000 psf. They are not going to flip it for that much. The much better option would be to sit on it for years rather than having to recognize the loss on land now, which would be significant. In the mean time, the market could improve, the MC's management keeps their bonuses (often predicated on gains and losses) and hey, the might switch jobs and wash their hands of the whole thing. Just speculating of course, but I've seen this mentality in mezz lenders on "pier" loans going nowhere

FWIW, I really like the design for the towers, just not on that site.
With Escala right next door, the cityscape looks really jammed together.

Maybe in the next cycle those towers can get done somewhere else, like the Denny Triangle as a part of the Clise plan?

Bellevueboss - I usually like your posts but in this case I semi-disagree. They aggressively acquired 5 parcels and had full schematics...etc. They sunk enough money to make me think they were pretty serious. However, I do note that we may have different perspectives on "serious" and that is totally understandable.

Flo - The sale for $2,000 psf was possibly to a third party. It really is not clear but selling 12,000 Sqft at $30 Million was ridiculous. If you factor out that transaction the purchase price is closer to $900 sqft for the land...the upper end of reasonable. I do agree however, that if teasing the market does not work it may be time to clamp down an hold for a couple years.

On a different note - I am still not a huge fan of condo's so close to the city core. I know I should be more open minded about it but just don't like the feel it gives a neighborhood (I sound like a 50 year old in the suburbs). I really struggle with the projects that are popping up in the Doc2 area. end rant.

Core Plus - educate me here, what would be the strategy behind the third-party sale? tax implications? Proving returns to early land development investment on the back of larger instutional equity?

I'm no financier, but the sale price might include the design documents and in-progress MUP.

I am a huge fan of condos so close to the core. I want to concentrate jobs, but I also want huge density of residents. Perhaps the balance should be 90/10 commercial in the absolute core and 60/40 housing at locations like 5th & Stewart. That's for ambiance, to supply a huge wave of pedestrian commuters, and to support the CBD's stores and institutions. Hotels too.

Since I started taking the bus through the business core, I had no idea how much pedestrian traffic there is during rush hour. I'm impressed. I'm also pleased to see how many people take the train (Sound Transit). I pass by King Station just as the 7:45 arrives from the south. Hundreds of passengers every morning. And THOSE all become pedestrians somewhere in the city!

Flo - just to clarify third party means unrelated. I was saying in my original post that the sale might be to third party or might be to a related party . If the sale was to an affiliate entity (usually transferred via quit claim deed) it is not legitimate to assume they need to hurdle that $2000 sqft mark. If it is a third party sale, well, the price was insane....

Basically, the sale of the 12,000 sqft parcel confuses me. It was sold it to another NY company but the OM I received indicates that the entire half block (38,880 sqft) is for sale. Leading me to believe it is related. Mhays is correct they are selling all the schematics and such with the land currently pushing a hotel only development. I don't have all the details since I did not return the confidentiality agreement to get the entire package....just the teaser and highlights...hence I can talk about it.

I really don't understand the purpose of the sale. The buyer may have to work with two sellers but again there is only mention of Multi Capital not the other party. I have been following these parcels since the monorail and the prices baffles me. There is no apparent tax benefit, they could be playing games with returns (but I doubt it). I wish I knew more.

It only really crossed my radar because there is a lot of land up for sale at the moment and I am working through a few pricing models.

I am not sure I am being very articulate and apologize. If I did not have to work I could focus more on this….

According to seaskyfan at skyscraperpage, there's a new permit sign on this site for twin 44-story buildings over an 11 story base...comment period yet to start.

That sounds like the same design. Did the land even sell yet?

Is this new news?

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/realestatenews/archives/142208.asp

THey changed the components. It has offices and less houses I think...

but yeah, it's like deja-vu...with the same design and all.

Well, that's good news I guess.

*crosses fingers*

Yep I saw a new sign on the Pagoda side. Something about "comment period ending July 9th, 2008"

I dont know what that means though!

That's always early in the lengthy process of obtaining a MUP.

So my question is why is Multi proposing (what appears to be) the same project again? I thought they basically had design approval earlier this year, then it sounded like it was dead due to the slowing market and the land was for sale. Now a few months later it's back, and is anything different? If Multi Group decided that they DO want to move forward, why are they proposing the project again?

The original MUP proposal left the avis building intact and built two towers adjacent to it. Since that time, the developers have acquired the avis site as well. Now the proposal is for the full width of the block.

Originally that's true, but I attended the design Review in Feb 08 and they had this same design with the 11 story base which ran the full length of the block. So at that time they'd acquired the Avis garage and had incorporated it. So did they get design approval for the full block but had yet to change the MUP to reflect this?

Is the land still for sale?

I have not heard much more on the land. There are a few parcels for sale in seattle I need to check on.

DJC Published for today indicates that this project will be delayed until 'Late 2009,' due to 'a faltering economy, poor local condo sales, and lack of financing for parts of the project.' Alec Carlin, the PM for the Hummingbird Advisors (Developer's Rep), said they're 'trying to decide the best time to move forward.'

Shame, the rendering on the front page of the paper is amazing. Dare I say that it's maybe even prettier than 1521.

Theres a few blips about it in the current issue of The Stranger too.

Here's the article from the stranger:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=612039&nw