Thanks Andrew

I was on a 2XXX tram yesterday and video cameras have been fitted. Strange though that they don't seem to cover the seats at each end which are the hotspots for trouble. The pods are right doen the middle of each section.

I was on a 2XXX tram yesterday and video cameras have been fitted. Strange though that they don't seem to cover the seats at each end which are the hotspots for trouble. The pods are right doen the middle of each section.

the end camera's point towards the cab doors so they do cover that area!!

A special Metrolink tram with its very own red nose will run in Greater Manchester on Red Nose Day (Friday 13 March).

The red-nosed tram will run on the Metrolink line between Altrincham and Bury, and through Manchester city centre. Staff from the system's owner - GMPTE, and operator - Stagecoach, will ride on the tram in fancy dress collecting donations for Comic Relief.

The red nose and Comic Relief advertising panels have been donated by Metrolink's advertising contractor CBS Outdoor and Stagecoach.

GMPTE's Metrolink Director, Philip Purdy, said: "Red Nose Day is such a huge event that it's great to get involved in.

"The tram is a key part of the Manchester community and I'm pleased we can come together with passengers to do our bit for the great causes supported by Comic Relief.

"It's not something that we do every day so I hope that passengers will enjoy it as a one off and get into the spirit of it."

Last year GMPTE decorated a Metrolink tram with poppies as part of the Armistice Day commemorations and has previously hosted a string quartet and carol singers on the system.

http://www.gmpte.com/news.cfm?news_id=6112335

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/community-news/20523/sad-fact-trams-cant-be-built-in-uk-mp-on-transport-visit

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5716/copyof2009223161127.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=copyof2009223161127.jpg)



A different picture of the new trams that i've not seen before. The yellow seems to be deeper/more bearable at least!

Seems a bit strange that the MP is stating the trams design was local? Perhaps the paint scheme was but the design is German, for a German City originally, unless I'm mistaken??

Interesting picture though, looks like they are being built in someones shed, not alot of room!

I didn't know we ordered flat pack trams from Ikea, explains the yellow I guess.

From Middleton Guardian

Tram plan for town
Exclusive by Chris Jones
March 19, 2009

CONNECTING Middleton to the Metrolink network could cost upto £80m.
Plans are currently being considered to link the town to the tram network by building a new line from Bowker Vale heading through Rhodes and towards the town centre.
The proposal is part of a raft of ideas being formulated as part of a new borough-wide transport strategy following the demise of the congestion charge bid and associated £3bn in funding.
Despite the high costs, Rochdale Council’s head of planning and regulation said it was worth looking into.
Peter Rowlinson said: "This strategy is worth flagging up as there is an opportunity to investigate whether this would work or not.
"It could cost between £70m and £80m and people may not think it offers a good rate of return but it is worth looking into."
Extending the Metrolink is one of eight objectives being worked on by the council to formulate a transport strategy for the borough for the next 20 years.
Other aims include improving public transport across the borough and into Manchester, developing links to the motorway network and extending cycling and walking networks.
Middleton Township Chair, Councillor Peter Williams, backed moves to extend the metroline to the town centre, but called on transport chiefs to look into other projects which could deliver results sooner.
These include building a heavy railway station at Slattocks and extending the existing station platform at Mills Hill.
Cllr Williams said: "The Township notes that its long held position that a Slattocks Station would bring more immediate benefits and access to the rail network of residents of the Town and especially for access to Hopwood Hall College campus.
"With regard to existing access to the network at Mills Hill Station is concerned the Township requests through Rochdale Cabinet that the Council’s representatives on the Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive lobby for increased capacity in the number of trains stopping at the station.
"The Township also requests the representatives to look into the frequency and convenience of bus services at Mills Hill since the lay-by has been used for additional parking.
"Also, to look into the extension of the platform at Mills Hill Station to accommodate the larger trains proposed for the Caldervale Line."
Details of the Transport Strategy are currently being considered by planners and presented to councillors across the borough.
Following a consultation period a finalised plan will be agreed as the basis of funding applications.

I'd like to see how they get it down from Bowker Vale and across the M60...

The route would surely follow the A576 (Middleton Road) and simply have a bridge at the point where the Middleton Junction is on the M60.

From Middleton Guardian

I'd like to see how they get it down from Bowker Vale and across the M60...

Exactly as Yorkie Stats stated. Just a bridge in the middle of the M60 junction or even better bring it down to pass under the A road and above the Motorway as the footpath currently does. Plenty of space.

Also the platforms at Mills Hill have already been extended to take 4 coach trains.

Its good to think that some people are pondering past Tif.

It wouldnt so difficult to do this, but the price would be much higher than £80m.

There wouldnt be any real problem in driving a line down Middleton Road as its doubled laned.

Even a bridge (albeit expensive) would be not be that difficult across Junction of the motorway.

However if they imagine (and I suspect its merely dreams at the mo) pushing this through the narrow winding roads of Rhodes, then it would both expensive to built and not much quicker than a bus.

How would you get it from Bowker on to middleton road though?

Dean check on google earth. A massive chunk of empty land next to those houses on the right hand side towards Manchester... could easilly have a ramp down to the road. You could even move Bowker Vale station to the other side of the road and have a two level four track station!

Hmm dreaming now!

Anyone reckon that the new trams will be labeled as the 3000 series? Stupid question I know but can't help wondering..

Just noticed 1001 has been upgraded much like 1007 and 2004 is working the Bury line

Update: 2002 also on the Bury line. I wonder why the change, I thought they were Eccles only
Good to see though

Anyone reckon that the new trams will be labeled as the 3000 series? Stupid question I know but can't help wondering..


Yes..... 3001 - 3040 and if tif had come through then it would have been 3001 - 3098 which would have been really impressive !

Theres going to be 40 new trams?? Good grief I didn't expect that I was expecting 10 at most!
And yes I know someone who also noticed a 2000 series on the bury line, they got on it at altrincham.
Thanks for the info.

Theres going to be 40 new trams?? Good grief I didn't expect that I was expecting 10 at most!
And yes I know someone who also noticed a 2000 series on the bury line, they got on it at altrincham.
Thanks for the info.


8 for Altrincham and Bury
4 for media city to Cornbrook
28 for the new lines.

Just noticed 1001 has been upgraded much like 1007 and 2004 is working the Bury line

Update: 2002 also on the Bury line. I wonder why the change, I thought they were Eccles only
Good to see though

There's no reason why they shouldn't work on the other lines now that they have 2 extra ones to use on the Eccles line (1001, 1007). That shold start to even out the mileage on them although I don't think the 2xxx will ever clock up the same as the 1xxx ones.

8 for Altrincham and Bury
4 for media city to Cornbrook
28 for the new lines.

Thanks for the info again, that should be very helpful with even just 8 new trams on the alty to bury line. Tbh I didn't actully know they were making new lines, I thought that WAS only if tif had come through, I haven't really been paying much attention to this thread until very recently so thats why, I will take a good look through it rather than ask everyone to explain everything lol, cheers.

Just noticed 1001 has been upgraded much like 1007 and 2004 is working the Bury line

Update: 2002 also on the Bury line. I wonder why the change, I thought they were Eccles only
Good to see though

1012 is the next one thats going to be done!!!
Also, anyone passing the metrolink depot at cheetham on the tram will notice work has now started. the workshop is being extended and new lines are being put in to stable the new trams when they arrive! :banana:

1012 is the next one thats going to be done!!!
Also, anyone passing the metrolink depot at cheetham on the tram will notice work has now started. the workshop is being extended and new lines are being put in to stable the new trams when they arrive! :banana:

So can 1001 and 1007 work to Eccles now?

Trams this morning have been murder. In my life time, I've never seen it that busy, even when the football is on, its not like that. When you get about 500 people stood on one platform wanting to get into work and only 3 trams turn up within an hour and there all rammed to fuck, it starts getting dangerous. God knows what it was like at Sale because at Brooklands the platform was 10-15 people deep and they were standing the whole length of the platform. I gave up and I was at the front.

8 for Altrincham and Bury
4 for media city to Cornbrook
28 for the new lines.
I don't understand why the introduction of the new trams won't simply swell the supply, ie. add 40 trams to the current availability and have them distributed more evenly across the network. Or is it that depots dictate this sort of thing?

what does 8 for Altrincham and Bury equate to in terms of hourly frequency in the peak hour / peak direction?

what does 8 for Altrincham and Bury equate to in terms of hourly frequency in the peak hour / peak direction?

IIRC the 8 addl trams ordered as part of the Phase 1/2 upgrade will ensure all the Alti-Bury direct trams are operated as doubles in the peaks. At present there are only sufficent trams to operate 2 - 3 doubles in the peaks.

ok, so how many additional trams will travel in the peak direction in the peak hour then?

are we going from 3 doubles and 2 singles to 5 doubles? Hence 2 trams per hour??

ok, so how many additional trams will travel in the peak direction in the peak hour then?

are we going from 3 doubles and 2 singles to 5 doubles? Hence 2 trams per hour??

A double one every 12 minutes between Bury and Altrincham.
A single one every 12 minutes between Piccadilly and Altrincham and Piccadilly to Bury so;

if you are waiting at Mosley Street going towards Altrincham you will get ;
double
single
double
single
double
single
double
single
double
single

every hour
and the same if you wait on Market Street going to Bury. This will be in both directions.

I stopped while on the way to work to take a picture of the work that Metman had mentioned previously, depot extension and what-not

Anyways the view from Queens Road wasnt totally amazing, but you can see in the photo they are drilling piles (just) and a cement mixer is also present. So work is at last progressing. Hooooorah!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/DSC00569.jpg

So can 1001 and 1007 work to Eccles now?

yes, 1001 was on eccles line yesterday while 2xxx was on the alt bury line all day!

There's piling rigs at either side of Great Ancoats Street at Pollard Street today. Is the Droylsden line tunnelling under Great Ancoats Street? I can't think what else it could be but there's a fair bit of work going on there today.

There's piling rigs at either side of Great Ancoats Street at Pollard Street today. Is the Droylsden line tunnelling under Great Ancoats Street? I can't think what else it could be but there's a fair bit of work going on there today.

Yes Macc an underpass similar to the one they built at Eccles is being constructed. I think until last year they were still debating as to it being a flat road crossing, thank god they chose the tunnel!

yes, 1001 was on eccles line yesterday while 2xxx was on the alt bury line all day!

Been on both today(1001, 2005), luck of the draw. 1007 is ugly as hell.

Heres a few pictures of that tunnel being constructed as mentioned earlier by Macc

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/DSC00571.jpg

This is the space cleared for the line to pass between the two buildings. I imagine that the line will be dropping down here to pass under the road. This is just on the other side of Fair street and Longacre Street (which is closed) Piccadilly station is just in the background.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/DSC00570.jpg

Not much work yet on the Piccadilly side of Great Ancoats street. The line passes to the left of the mill with the boarded up windows you can just make out.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/DSC00572.jpg

More progress on the Pollard Street side. The hole was already pretty deep but it was difficult to get a good picture. People were working even on Saturday!

When will the new trams be operating?

2010 to 2012 Approximately Phillip

cool thanks

Wonder if the GMex bridge at the Bridgwater Hall will be repainted out of that dreadful green? Would look good in yellow and gray. And that other monstrosity linking Deansaget station and GMex desperately needs the "plastic" glass replaced and repainted. Surprised that there haven't been compaints about the state of this bridge !

Wonder if the GMex bridge at the Bridgwater Hall will be repainted out of that dreadful green? Would look good in yellow and gray. And that other monstrosity linking Deansaget station and GMex desperately needs the "plastic" glass replaced and repainted. Surprised that there haven't been compaints about the state of this bridge !

I took a nice shot of Knott Mill from one of the cracks in that bridge, one very cold, Sunday morn.

Here, see... :)

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Knott%20Mill&w=86706893%40N00

Maybe they will repaint the bridge at the same as time as replacing the rails?

Anyways this week is probably your final time to leave the tram at Mosley Street, as it most likely going to be removed and not replaced! RIP Mosley Street station :lol:

Anyways...

Another cheppy phone picture. Should really invest eh

The depot site looking more like Mount Trafford. They were also constructing some strange looking foundations on the far side. half meter high square concrete blocks in rows about 1 meter apart, no idea.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/DSC00578.jpg

Maybe they will repaint the bridge at the same as time as replacing the rails?

Anyways this week is probably your final time to leave the tram at Mosley Street, as it most likely going to be removed and not replaced! RIP Mosley Street station :lol:

Anyways...

Another cheppy phone picture. Should really invest eh

The depot site looking more like Mount Trafford. They were also constructing some strange looking foundations on the far side. half meter high square concrete blocks in rows about 1 meter apart, no idea.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/DSC00578.jpg

It looks like somewhere from a Tom Baker Doctor Who episode.
Just add a bit of steam. some people running about in rags or old sacks and the odd Cyberman and you'd have most people convinced !

Wonder if the GMex bridge at the Bridgwater Hall will be repainted out of that dreadful green? Would look good in yellow and gray. And that other monstrosity linking Deansaget station and GMex desperately needs the "plastic" glass replaced and repainted. Surprised that there haven't been compaints about the state of this bridge !


The reason is hasn't been repaired is the council will not let them close the road Below!

They were also constructing some strange looking foundations on the far side. half meter high square concrete blocks in rows about 1 meter apart, no idea.


think they are going to put portacabins on them to use as offices!

The reason is hasn't been repaired is the council will not let them close the road Below!

Is there any reason why the damaged track on the viaduct hasn't been repaired yet? because that's a very bad accident waiting to happen.

This isn't going to happen now as the Tracks at Shudehill tram stop are in such a bad state! they are sinking!!!

Is there any reason why the damaged track on the viaduct hasn't been repaired yet? because that's a very bad accident waiting to happen.

it has been fixed but think it's a tempery fix for now! the length of the 10 mph speed restriction has been reduced

GMPTE - Press Releases


Information campaign launched for city centre tram work
Published on Monday, 30 March 2009

An information campaign has been launched to keep people up to date on a multimillion pound project to replace all the Metrolink track in Manchester city centre.

Last year, transport bosses at Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive (GMPTE) completely replaced the track between Piccadilly station and Portland Street.

From Monday 6 April work will start on replacing the remaining track throughout the city centre. Metrolink services will run to different timetables and some bus services will take a different route into the city centre.

Posters are being put up at all 37 stops on the Metrolink network, letters have been delivered to local residents and businesses, and thousands of leaflets have been printed to hand out at tram stops and in GMPTE Travelshops.

GMPTE's Metrolink Director, Philip Purdy, said: "We want to keep everybody up to date on how the tram track replacement work might affect them.

"That's not just Metrolink passengers - but other road users and people who live and work in the city centre. I encourage everyone to pick up a leaflet or go online at www.gmpte.com to find out more.

"There's information about tram services, walking routes and the bus services we are provide links across the city centre.

"I thank everyone for their patience while this essential work takes place. We're investing heavily in Metrolink so that it meets our passengers' needs - and we'll do everything we can to keep disruption to a minimum."

From Monday 6 April the following Metrolink services will run:

- every 12 minutes from Altrincham to St Peter's Square (double trams) - every 12 minutes from Eccles to St Peter's Square - every 12 minutes from Bury to Victoria (double trams)

The following bus services will run for people with a valid Metrolink ticket:

G-Mex stop - Piccadilly station Every 20 minutes throughout the day, seven days a week.

Victoria - Shudehill - Piccadilly Gardens - Piccadilly station Every 10 minutes (Monday to Saturday, 7am to 7pm). Every 20 minutes (evenings and Sundays).

The city centre track is the most heavily used on the tram network and is now over 16 years old. Even more trams will start running on it when new lines to Chorlton, Oldham, Rochdale, East Manchester and MediaCityUK open over the next few years.

The new track will help make journeys smoother, quieter and more reliable. Improvements will also be made to the tram stops at St Peter's Square and Piccadilly Gardens.

Passengers can get more information about Metrolink services at www.metrolink.co.uk or by calling Metrolink Customer Services on 0161 205 2000. Lines are open between 7am and 11pm, Monday to Friday, and between 10am and 6pm at weekends.

it has been fixed but think it's a tempery fix for now! the length of the 10 mph speed restriction has been reduced

even on other sections between there and cornbrook it seems our trams go slower on segregated rails than they do on open streets of Amsterdam!

even on other sections between there and cornbrook it seems our trams go slower on segregated rails than they do on open streets of Amsterdam!

Going into Manchester, they go pretty quick, its coming out where they have gone alot slower due to the already mentioned damaged rail.

metman are there any plans to fix it permanently?

Going into Manchester, they go pretty quick, its coming out where they have gone alot slower due to the already mentioned damaged rail.

metman are there any plans to fix it permanently?

Not heard anything yet

does anyone know where i can get detailed plans of the extensions on the internet? All i can find is basic maps with fat lines vaguely indicating the routes.

Hmm. I don't think i've seen any either.

The oldham line follows the bury met line but veers right here (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=add+Cc&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=53.499132,-2.225204&spn=0.004684,0.013947&t=k&z=17). then heads up the current oldham line to mumps.

Chorlton line is pretty obvious apart from the link up onto the Fallowfield loop (why they didn't extent it to fallowfield still baffles me)

Droylsden route heads out the back of Piccadilly, under Great Ancoats st and up Pollard st.

Then weaves round the north side of COMS and under Alan Turing/ASDA, to pop out at Ashton New Road and East to Droylsden.

Isn't Sainsbury's (or at least the car park or something) built on top of the Fallowfield section of the line?

It is yeah. All the more reason to make fallowfield the terminus.

It is yeah. All the more reason to make fallowfield the terminus.

All the more reason to pursue the East Didsbury line when funds become available. It has a greater population and passes through more affluent areas and is therefore more likely to make an operating profit which can be reinvested.

does anyone know where i can get detailed plans of the extensions on the internet? All i can find is basic maps with fat lines vaguely indicating the routes.

It isn't usually common practice to make technical drawings publically available. Is there a specific part of the route you want to know about?

All the more reason to pursue the East Didsbury line when funds become available. It has a greater population and passes through more affluent areas and is therefore more likely to make an operating profit which can be reinvested.

Terminus for a fallowfield line. Didsbury line to the airport as standard yes.

Terminus for a fallowfield line. Didsbury line to the airport as standard yes.

Heh? Airport line went to the Airport. Didsbury line went to Didsbury. There was no Fallowfield line ever proposed because it would be a pointless stump (unless Sainsbury's was knocked down) and even then it wouldn't be going in the right direction.

It isn't usually common practice to make technical drawings publically available. Is there a specific part of the route you want to know about?The books for each line released in the early 90`s had fairly detailed ordanance survey maps with the routes well marked in them.

My error, I didn't realise Airport and Didsbury would be on different spurs.

Still though, I think the 20000ish people stretching from east chorlton to Fallowfield are enough to warrant at least a proposal of a line.
Some disagree.

My error, I didn't realise Airport and Didsbury would be on different spurs.

Still though, I think the 20000ish people stretching from east chorlton to Fallowfield are enough to warrant at least a proposal of a line.
Some disagree.

It's not about the number of people. It's about who they are and where they want to go. A large proportion of Fallowfield residents are students. Students aren't going to pay to use the tram to get to town because for the most part they want to go to the university. The south Manchester loop might be a useful route in future, but it shouldn't be a priority.

I'm just interested to see where the route out of Piccadilly will go in more detail than the vague line on a vague map i can get hold of so far.

If you walk around the back of the station you can see where the existing lines end, the new ones will simply continue out of the back.

If you have a walk around it becomes quite clear.

As Metrolink says you can clearly see where the route is going now from Piccadilly on the ground at least. I posted some pictures earlier

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/metromap1.jpg

The first section from Picc to Pollard Street station

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/metromap2.jpg

The route as far as COMS

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/metromap3.jpg

Around the stadium to Ashton New Road . Then straight along to Drolysden

Coming out of Piccadilly through this 'entrance'...

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1049/picctram.jpg

Hopefully, this'll boost a bit of regeneration round there. Looks like an absolute shithole.

It is very industrial in that area, hopefully some regeneration will happen, however I think we will see very little in that area, probably more so towards Sports City in the long term.

Did anyone get a last ride through town today on the Met?

Gonna be strange in town with no trams for the next 7 months!

Did anyone get a last ride through town today on the Met?

Gonna be strange in town with no trams for the next 7 months!

7 months! Seems along time. :ohno:

Sorry to be so unaware, but I did not know they were actully stopping the met through town, can I still get INTO town from say, sale?

http://www.gmpte.com/pdf/Met_upgrades_6_April_leaflet.pdf

If the tracks are being replaced after 16 / 17 years.
Most of this was Alt-Bury then Eccles traffic.
With the introduction of more trams will the tracks require replace sooner in the future? Does anyone know if any means are being implemented to change shorter segments that could say be replaced over a weekend?

The city centre was not done very well, the new tracks should have amuch longer life than what has gone before.

These old tracks were the first laid in the UK for many decades, many mistakes were made.

Metrolink revamp begins

April 06, 2009

WORK began on Monday morning on a £100m Metrolink upgrade.

All of the city centre's 16-year-old track is to be ripped out in a bid to improve services.

But the work has led to the closure of a number of key stations. Shudehill, Market Street, Piccadilly Gardens and Mosley Street have closed with walking routes and buses for passengers set up instead.

Double trains have been laid on between Altrincham and St Peter's Square and Bury and Victoria.

Trams will also run between Eccles and St Peter's Square every 12 minutes. And a bus shuttle - free to anyone with a valid Metrolink ticket - will run a circular route between Victoria, the G-Mex and Piccadilly.

Road closures close to the stations are also expected to come into force at weekends.

Stops at Piccadilly Gardens and St Peter's Square will also be improved as part of the upgrade.

A spokesman for Metrolink said the work would make services 'smoother, quieter and more reliable'.

The track that is being replaced has been in place since trams returned to the city in 1992. The work - which will see all rails in the city centre replaced - is expected to end in September.

Transport chiefs had originally planned to change the track over a longer period. They changed their minds after inspections proved it had been deteriorating faster than thought.

The low-speed derailment of a tram in Piccadilly Gardens on Boxing Day last year also contributed to the work being brought forward.

As well as the restoration work, Metrolink bosses said a giant piling rig was due to start work on Monday on the new East Manchester line.

Rail bosses say it represents the 'first piece of major engineering work on the tram expansion project'.

The expansion will eventually see new lines running to Chorlton, Oldham, Rochdale and MediaCityUK.

A knock-on effect will mean that the new city centre tracks will be crossed 400 times every day.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1106807_metrolink_revamp_begins

These old tracks were the first laid in the UK for many decades, many mistakes were made.

a good example that once skills are lost it's very hard to get them back.

a good example that once skills are lost it's very hard to get them back.

You might find this interesting in that I've just returned from Austin in Texas and they've installed a metro system - which in itself is pretty amazing for a Texan city. However the quality of the track that's been laid is so bad (and I mean I could see the problems with it and I'm a lay person) plus other issues that they've delayed the opening.

I guess this proves your point that the Yanks aren't used to such projects and the skillbase isn't in the area to lay tracks properly, and run such a system.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/traffic/entries/2009/03/14/cap_metro_to_delay_rail_start.html

You might find this interesting in that I've just returned from Austin in Texas and they've installed a metro system - which in itself is pretty amazing for a Texan city. However the quality of the track that's been laid is so bad (and I mean I could see the problems with it and I'm a lay person) plus other issues that they've delayed the opening.

I guess this proves your point that the Yanks aren't used to such projects and the skillbase isn't in the area to lay tracks properly, and run such a system.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/traffic/entries/2009/03/14/cap_metro_to_delay_rail_start.html

exactly, tram systems are very complex and we lost so many skills both in terms of tram and tram track construction and maintenance once we lost closed all those systems down in the 50's and 60's.

We are slowly getting them back, I guess the problem we have now is that roads are well established as well as the pipes underneath them which all add to the cost of laying new track. I would like to see some research into track techonology so we can one day have track which is light enough to go over utilities (as regards electrolysis that is easy just have two wires and feed the electricity back via the second wire similar to a trolley bus) yet strong enough to carry a tram and not crush the road.

http://www.gmpte.com/pdf/Met_upgrades_6_April_leaflet.pdf

Cheers for that, thats ok for me then :)

What was with the trams today, was stuck 100 yards outside woodlands road for about 25 minutes, lights kept going on and off it was about 18:10

I had similar delays from brooklands towards town today, but that was just due to works near st peter's square so had to get off a gmex, maybe the same reason? There might have been another tram too close by.

I had similar delays from brooklands towards town today, but that was just due to works near st peter's square so had to get off a gmex, maybe the same reason? There might have been another tram too close by.

Wasn't at lights or anything it was like it had broken down, it was litrally right next to the station, lights kept going off and on and it was sounding like the driver was trying to constantly restart it.

May well have been a break down then, wasn't a break down I was on though, thank goodness for the new trams coming in, hopefully they are more reliable.

Is it just my experience or do they break down more often as double units? Maybe its just twice the chance of having a problem or something else.

Good point, however I have been on the trams when one has broken down and the other one either pushes or pulls it depending which way round. Probably just chance.

PR from GMPTE:

A groundbreaking day for Metrolink
http://www.gmpte.com/news.cfm?news_id=6113445
Published on Tuesday, 07 April 2009

The sight of a giant piece of machinery operating in East Manchester has signalled the start of major construction work on Greater Manchester's Metrolink expansion.

The leader of Greater Manchester Integrated Transport Authority (GMITA) watched the brand new piling rig in action today at the construction site near Great Ancoats Street.

The rig is being used to create the concrete retaining walls of an underpass that trams will use to run beneath Great Ancoats Street on the new Metrolink line to Droylsden.

It is the first major piece of engineering work to take place in a ?600 million Metrolink expansion project, which will also take trams on new lines to South Manchester, Oldham and Rochdale, and MediaCityUK in Salford.

Councillor Matt Colledge, Chair of GMITA, said: "This is a landmark day in the history of Metrolink. After months of preparations and groundwork, we're now beginning to actually see the new lines being built, which is very exciting.

"I am sure that the sight of this considerable piece of machinery at work will make people realise - if they haven't already - that Metrolink is coming their way."

Over the course of the work on the underpass MPact-Thales - the consortium appointed to design, build and maintain the new lines - will move up to 20,000 cubic metres, the equivalent of 20 million litres, of soil. The walls will be constructed using more than 400 concrete piles ranging in diameter from 90cm to 1.5m, set 15 metres deep.

The scale of the work is further reflected in the workforce required - the temporary offices on site can accommodate up to 300 people.

Bryan Diggins, Project Director, MPact-Thales, said: "Our objective is to be good neighbours to the people living and working next to the new lines as we build the extensions.

"There will be some noise during this work - which is inevitable with any construction site - but the method of piling that we are using creates significantly less noise, dust and vibration than the alternatives.

"We're also looking into ways to recycle the spoil material so there are fewer lorry movements in the area."

This initial phase of piling will take place over the next couple of months and will allow for utilities to be diverted, but there will be construction work on the underpass and on the new line in the Great Ancoats Street area for the next two years.

Philip Purdy, GMPTE's Metrolink Director, said: "This is the first big step of a considerable construction project and people will be seeing a lot of activity along all the new lines in the coming months and years.

"We are committed to keeping people informed about what's going on. We sent more than 1,000 letters to residents and businesses in the Great Ancoats area before the piling rig arrived and we will continue to keep everyone well informed as the work progresses.

"Our Metrolink liaison team is just a phone call away."

The new four-mile line to Droylsden will run through East Manchester, past the City of Manchester Stadium and the Velodrome.

Eight new stops will be created along the route, which is due to open in spring 2012 with trams running to and from Manchester every six minutes.

To find out more about the project call the Metrolink public liaison team on 0161 244 1555 (open during office hours), email future.metrolink@gmpte.gov.uk or visit www.gmpte.com/futuremetrolink.

Phone camera shots from today ...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3311/3421305170_52727a7cba.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3303/3421304596_a78876c34a.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3604/3420496697_c8398824b6.jpg?v=0

Nice shots spiderman.

The story isnt quite correct, really it should say this is the last piece of engineering for the Ashton line... as the rest was built years ago!

300 meter tunnel under Allan Turing way

Viaduct over river the back of the stadium

Had a chat with one the workers on the city centre replacement today to save another post. The guy said they are bringing the trams through for maintenance every Monday, Wednesday and Friday night via the Northbound line. So the Southbound line will the first to be replaced.

Oh and I also noticed for the first time two phase 1 modified trams , No 1007 and I think 1017 coupled together. Little bit of history... ha

Very jealous :)

Laing O'Rourke starts work on £600m Manchester tram extension
14:36 07 Apr 2009
By Will Mann


Construction work has started on the extension of Manchester's Metrolink tram system near Great Ancoats Street.

The M-Pact consortium of Laing O'Rourke, GrantRail and Thales was awarded the contract last year.

Piling has commenced on the concrete retaining walls of an underpass for trams beneath Great Ancoats Street on the new Metrolink line to Droylsden, reports Transport Briefing.

The construction work is scheduled to run for the next two years.

The £600m Metrolink expansion project which will bring new tram lines to south Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, and Salford.



http://www.contractjournal.com/Articles/2009/04/07/66660/laing-orourke-starts-work-on-600m-manchester-tram-extension.html

Nice shots spiderman.

The story isnt quite correct, really it should say this is the last piece of engineering for the Ashton line... as the rest was built years ago!

300 meter tunnel under Allan Turing way

Viaduct over river the back of the stadium

Had a chat with one the workers on the city centre replacement today to save another post. The guy said they are bringing the trams through for maintenance every Monday, Wednesday and Friday night via the Northbound line. So the Southbound line will the first to be replaced.

Oh and I also noticed for the first time two phase 1 modified trams , No 1007 and I think 1017 coupled together. Little bit of history... ha

No it was 1001 and 1007 coupled together as I travelled passenger on them today. 1017 isn't modified yet, only 1007, 1001 and 1012 is being done at the moment!

Anyone know actully why they are being modified? Not that I am complaining, its good, but my guess is so that they are able to run on thye eccles line?

No, no one knows, it is a total mystery. Each morning when the first people arrive at the depot the trams are all slowly evolving.
No one knows how, and no one knows why.
It may be a miracle!

Perhaps its just to modern them up abit for when the new trams come in.

maybe its so that 1xxx, 2xxx, and 3xxx can all be joined regardless!

And why are all the lights in the Piccadilly Undercroft station all blazing? They should all be turned off now to save energy as there really is no need for them to be on except maybe a few emergency lights in case there is a tramp still in there somewhere.

Perhaps its just to modern them up abit for when the new trams come in.

Well, the ones that have been done are going to have to be redone again to yellow paint job and the new look is shocking. It looks as if someone has put a poor quality plastic bucket on the front.

:lol:
I quite like the new ones actully, just hope they are more reliable and breakdown less (preferbly not at all). Really besides looks I meant modification to the electrics or compatibility to the newer trams, but yes, will very odd a double tram one being a 1/2 series connected to a 3 series.

:lol:
I quite like the new ones actully, just hope they are more reliable and breakdown less (preferbly not at all). Really besides looks I meant modification to the electrics or compatibility to the newer trams, but yes, will very odd a double tram one being a 1/2 series connected to a 3 series.


Even more strange when you go to Vienna and see the new low floor version (of the kind we are getting) being joined on to 30 year old high floor ones willynilly is weird. They run as 4-5 car sets and are in any order, but there is always a low floor one in each set while some have 3 olds and 2 news. Can't work out hoow to get pictures on here or I would show you sall.

Christ, I was joking.

It has been said a million times on here (I tell you, the youth of today, cannot bloody read!!!), it is so they can run over the entire network, and are not restricted to Phase1.

Bookmark this page, and next time you forget why the trams are being upgraded you can reference it.

Motortownman

I dont think that phase 3 trams will be able to couple to phase 1 and 2 as far as i know. They will only be able run in multiple with each other... Unless Gmpte is thinking ahead for when they do break down...

Probably not!

Video below. Click on link.

'Landmark day' for Metrolink
Mike Keegan

http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/res/233.$plit/C_71_article_1107046_image_list_image_list_item_0_image.jpg?07%2F04%2F2009%2009%3A33%3A29%3A322

Work gets underway which will take trams to Chorlton, Oldham, Rochdale, MediaCity and Tameside

April 07, 2009

THE arrival of a giant pile driver rig signalled a new phase in the £600m Metrolink expansion project.

The work, which will take trams to Chorlton, Oldham, Rochdale, MediaCity at Salford and Tameside, got underway on Great Ancoats Street in Manchester.

Concrete walls are being made to protect an underpass that trams will use on their way to Droylsden.

Transport bosses described the start of the work as 'a landmark day'.

Coun Matt Colledge said: "After months of preparations and groundwork, we're now beginning to actually see the new lines being built, which is very exciting.

"I am sure that the sight of this considerable piece of machinery at work will make people realise that Metrolink is coming their way."

The new four-mile line to Droylsden will run through east Manchester, past Eastlands and the Velodrome.

Work has also started to replace city centre tram lines - meaning Shudehill, Market Street, Piccadilly Gardens and Mosley Street stations are temporarily closed.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1107046_landmark_day_for_metrolink

Motortownman

I dont think that phase 3 trams will be able to couple to phase 1 and 2 as far as i know. They will only be able run in multiple with each other... Unless Gmpte is thinking ahead for when they do break down...

Probably not!

NO the new trams will not be able to run as doubles as they will not have couplers on them!! they can connect to other trams but it's just with a bar that takes about half an hour to do and will only be done for breakdowns!

NO the new trams will not be able to run as doubles as they will not have couplers on them!! they can connect to other trams but it's just with a bar that takes about half an hour to do and will only be done for breakdowns!

cost cutting a step too far?
would it be possible to retrofit them at a later date?

NO the new trams will not be able to run as doubles as they will not have couplers on them!! they can connect to other trams but it's just with a bar that takes about half an hour to do and will only be done for breakdowns!

That doesn't make any sense because the plan was to get new trams so all services on the Bury and Alti lines run as double units.

Metman. Im sure that they said they were fixing the stations in centre for level boarding because...

The new trams will not have retractable steps, and they will run in multiple?

We will see in the Autumn anyway when the first tram arrives

New trams to run Alty and Bury to Piccadilly (i.e. single units), existing units to run double Alty to Bury.

City centre stations will be made full height for the full length of the platform so long as planning permission is granted (which it is not yet).

About time, Mosley Street and St Peter's Square stops are terrible!

:lol:New trams to run Alty and Bury to Piccadilly (i.e. single units), existing units to run double Alty to Bury.

City centre stations will be made full height for the full length of the platform so long as planning permission is granted (which it is not yet).

Can you imagine it not being granted though? :lol:

I think Mosely street is being got rid of entirely Chogs.

They need to go through the right hoops.

There will be a lot of opposition to the St Peter's Sq work, the whole reason it is so small is to appease those who objected to Metrolink so close to the senitaph (I know I cannot spell very well!!!).

There will be objections from the British Legion and other War Memorial organisations I suspect.

They need to go through the right hoops.

There will be a lot of opposition to the St Peter's Sq work, the whole reason it is so small is to appease those who objected to Metrolink so close to the senitaph (I know I cannot spell very well!!!).

There will be objections from the British Legion and other War Memorial organisations I suspect.

I can just see the temp wooden steps beign replaced with concrete ones lol

The current set up for trams running into St Peter's Sq is really not working! All week the Eccles trams I have been on have been stuck at the light before Cornbook then stuck on the bridge into GMEX for ages. Some days the journey from Salford Quays to St Peter's has taken 30-40mins! They need to terminate at GMEX as the turn around will be faster, running a tiny section of single line seems to be making it worse than it needs to be.

[deleted post]

NO the new trams will not be able to run as doubles as they will not have couplers on them!! they can connect to other trams but it's just with a bar that takes about half an hour to do and will only be done for breakdowns!

Are you sure that's right Metman? AIUI the new trams can run in multiple with each other (two units in pax service, more for ECS), but not with the existing trams. The bar would be used for emergencies only e.g. Using an M5000 to rescue a dead T68 or vice versa.

This video here shows are two talking points in action on KVB k5000 trams. Low flooring step. Which to me seems pretty bad if your stood right next to the door and also the tram connected up. I can see them losing the step because it won't be needed if they sort the City Centre Platforms out but the tram connection so they can run in doubles must be a must for a £2 Million tram.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1dhic_k5000portesouvfermdepart_tech

Hopefully, this'll boost a bit of regeneration round there. Looks like an absolute shithole.

if the mayfield thing gets going in the economic upturn the whole place will be smartened up.

here's some pics i took last year.

pics of the approximate area from saturday
(7 pics)
http://www.nickgrayson.net/Gallery/east%20manchester%20mostly-%2026%20april%202008/images/IMG_4011%20copy.jpg

http://www.nickgrayson.net/Gallery/east%20manchester%20mostly-%2026%20april%202008/images/IMG_4013%20copy.jpg

http://www.nickgrayson.net/Gallery/east%20manchester%20mostly-%2026%20april%202008/images/IMG_3997%20copy.jpg

http://www.nickgrayson.net/Gallery/east%20manchester%20mostly-%2026%20april%202008/images/IMG_4008%20copy.jpg

http://www.nickgrayson.net/Gallery/east%20manchester%20mostly-%2026%20april%202008/images/IMG_3992%20copy.jpg

http://www.nickgrayson.net/Gallery/east%20manchester%20mostly-%2026%20april%202008/images/IMG_4014%20copy.jpg

http://www.nickgrayson.net/Gallery/east%20manchester%20mostly-%2026%20april%202008/images/IMG_4016%20copy.jpg

i found some great places to dump bodies around there

from the mayfield thread- http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=599383

Mayfield is a dump!

Anyways thankyou Flange for finding those plans of the Metrolink at Media city

Glad to see they are going for two tracks and a proper station. I was imagining another Eccles type station jobby, urgh.

Heres the plans

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/MetrolinkMediacity1.jpg

Ground level elevation

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/MetrolinkMediacity2.jpg

Over all view showing the station in relation to the rest of Media city

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/MetrolinkMediacity3.jpg

And again.

Nice pics of the media city station.

I am a newbie on Skyscraper -so apologies if this has been coverd before!

Does anyone know the Metrolink station configuration at Piccadilly for the new Droylsden line. Is going to be a seperate new section or feed into the existing platforms?

I am quite intersted as I live on the Oldham Loop line and (currently) I work near the Edge lane stop.

Although if history continues to repeat itself I'll have moved and work somewhere else before they are finished as I originally come from Blackpool, went to Uni in Sheffield (graduated before the system was complete) and worked off Eccles New Road whilst the Eccles line was being built!

Been meaning to take some photos of the Edge Lane stop - they've already cleared the main area of houses some time ago and have recently been doing some survey work.

Looking at an artists impression there is still a building on the corner of the junction to come down - that's going to be fun! Was going to post a link to it but carn't find it -will do later if I can find it again.

Nice pics of the media city station.

I am a newbie on Skyscraper -so apologies if this has been coverd before!

Does anyone know the Metrolink station configuration at Piccadilly for the new Droylsden line. Is going to be a seperate new section or feed into the existing platforms?

I am quite intersted as I live on the Oldham Loop line and (currently) I work near the Edge lane stop.

Although if history continues to repeat itself I'll have moved and work somewhere else before they are finished as I originally come from Blackpool, went to Uni in Sheffield (graduated before the system was complete) and worked off Eccles New Road whilst the Eccles line was being built!

Been meaning to take some photos of the Edge Lane stop - they've already cleared the main area of houses some time ago and have recently been doing some survey work.

Looking at an artists impression there is still a building on the corner of the junction to come down - that's going to be fun! Was going to post a link to it but carn't find it -will do later if I can find it again.

Welcome to the forum!

There will be no major alterations to the Piccadilly stop. The lines will simply be extended out of Piccadilly to the east. There will be a turnback siding clear of the running lines immediately east of Piccadilly station to allow the Eccles services to continue to terminate at Picc and the platforms will obviously no longer be arrivals and departures.

Thanks for the welcome.

I've found the link of the before and after pics which shows edge lane + some others - (sorry if some of you have seen them before):

http://www.gmpte.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=4192950

here's some pics i took last year.

Could be Castlefield-esque you know. It's spacious enough with loads of interesting bridges and shear walls. Let's hope it doesn't rot for too long.

and the platforms will obviously no longer be arrivals and departures.

They will probably have to install new escalators. As it stands, you can only get down to the departure platform and vice-versa with the arrivals.

Ironically but maybe not but the space where the west facing trainge corner at the top (it will appear as a v on this photo) is where the original tram building was when the Manchester corporation trams terminated at Edge Lane.

Does anyone have any info on expected journey times on the Oldham-Rochdale and Droylsden lines to and from Manchester?

I was speaking to someone who commutes from Shaw to Manchester and she said that Northern Rail staff had said the journey would be 48 mins from Shaw. Surely that carn't be right, can it? Even from Rochdale that seems a long time.

That sounds like bollocks. I doubt it would even take that long to get from Rochdale to Altrincham.

Does anyone have any info on expected journey times on the Oldham-Rochdale and Droylsden lines to and from Manchester?

I was speaking to someone who commutes from Shaw to Manchester and she said that Northern Rail staff had said the journey would be 48 mins from Shaw. Surely that carn't be right, can it? Even from Rochdale that seems a long time.

Currently W0bz there is a fast train to Shaw that takes exactly 20 mins

The slow service takes 28 mins stopping at every station but terminates at Shaw. The next train stopping at the stations after Shaw takes 11 mins to Reach Rochdale how ever this train has ran express to Oldham. So that brings the total to 39 mins for a train stopping at every station.

5 more stations are due to be constructed on the line up to shaw so add in 1 min for every station. To Rochdale add on 7 more stops

Shaw Journey time = Approx 33 or 34 mins
Rochdale Journey time = 46 to 48 mins

The Oldham town centre diversion would have slowed things down a lot. Silver lining etc...

Currently W0bz there is a fast train to Shaw that takes exactly 20 mins

The slow service takes 28 mins stopping at every station but terminates at Shaw. The next train stopping at the stations after Shaw takes 11 mins to Reach Rochdale how ever this train has ran express to Oldham. So that brings the total to 39 mins for a train stopping at every station.

5 more stations are due to be constructed on the line up to shaw so add in 1 min for every station. To Rochdale add on 7 more stops

Shaw Journey time = Approx 33 or 34 mins
Rochdale Journey time = 46 to 48 mins


Cut maybe 5 mins off that becasue the trams move off and stop faster than the trains, especailly on the way up to Oldham where they are struggling coming out of Victoria. When the town centre parts are done I would expect it to be in the region of 48-55 mins though. I don't think many people will use the service from Rochdale to Manchester, unless they are carrying on somewhere else on the tram system. The trains is much quicker from Rochdale (and nearly as frequent) and much much cheaper. You may find it's used as a local service from Oldham to Rochdale though as it will be quicker than the bus,

Currently W0bz there is a fast train to Shaw that takes exactly 20 mins

The slow service takes 28 mins stopping at every station but terminates at Shaw. The next train stopping at the stations after Shaw takes 11 mins to Reach Rochdale how ever this train has ran express to Oldham. So that brings the total to 39 mins for a train stopping at every station.

5 more stations are due to be constructed on the line up to shaw so add in 1 min for every station. To Rochdale add on 7 more stops

Shaw Journey time = Approx 33 or 34 mins
Rochdale Journey time = 46 to 48 mins

Thanks - this sounds more like it, 48 mins to/from Rochdale - not Shaw which is about 34 mins. :cheers:

I agree about it is unlikely that people from Rochdale using it to get to Manchester as the train via Castleton takes 16-20 mins.

I personally don't think the 3b Oldham section will now go ahead as the priority will be else where - the city centre 2nd crossing - Didsbury and Ashton etc and currently there is no funding in place for these.

This is a bit a of a mixed result - I am not really a fan of road sharing sections but for the short section down Union street I think would have really increased people using the serive as Mumps is a bit out of the way. Basically just 3a doesn't make the most of the investment of the upgrade and Oldham council has done all its planning aound the line going down Union street - and boy does Oldham town centre need some investment (in my opinion). The same is true for Rochdale and the section down Drake street - although this may still go ahead but I think it will be at the back of the queue.

Thanks - this sounds more like it, 48 mins to/from Rochdale - not Shaw which is about 34 mins. :cheers:

I agree about it is unlikely that people from Rochdale using it to get to Manchester as the train via Castleton takes 16-20 mins.

I personally don't think the 3b Oldham section will now go ahead as the priority will be else where - the city centre 2nd crossing - Didsbury and Ashton etc and currently there is no funding in place for these.

This is a bit a of a mixed result - I am not really a fan of road sharing sections but for the short section down Union street I think would have really increased people using the serive as Mumps is a bit out of the way. Basically just 3a doesn't make the most of the investment of the upgrade and Oldham council has done all its planning aound the line going down Union street - and boy does Oldham town centre need some investment (in my opinion). The same is true for Rochdale and the section down Drake street - although this may still go ahead but I think it will be at the back of the queue.

Agree with you completely W0bz. Speaking as a Crumpsallite who works in Oldham, the main difference the original met made was to take you right into the heart of Manchester and 3a on its own misses the point. Presumably the problem is the big engineering between Werneth station and the town centre. Still think there should be a branch to the hospital...

PS where and how on the Oldham line will the drivers do the changeover? I can't work out how they will get to Queen's Road depot apart from trudging along what will be the rail link to it.

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Cut maybe 5 mins off that becasue the trams move off and stop faster than the trains, especailly on the way up to Oldham where they are struggling coming out of Victoria. When the town centre parts are done I would expect it to be in the region of 48-55 mins though. I don't think many people will use the service from Rochdale to Manchester, unless they are carrying on somewhere else on the tram system. The trains is much quicker from Rochdale (and nearly as frequent) and much much cheaper. You may find it's used as a local service from Oldham to Rochdale though as it will be quicker than the bus,

As a resident of Shaw, I see the Metrolink bringing little or not benefit to Oldham, Shaw or Rochdale.

The current rail service is cheap, reasonably efficient and a fairly decent speed (it could be much better of course but lets be thankful for what we've got). The rail service isn't particularly congested even at peak times.

The rail service from Shaw to Manchester will be gone for 2 and a half years. GMPTE still haven't sorted the arrangements for replacement buses yet.

I doubt very much people will be using this replacement public transport for their daily commute, and also doubt whether people will return to using public transport, once the metrolink is running, after a long period of commuting by car.

I personally think replacing railway lines with metrolink lines achieves nothing. The trams won't be going anywhere they didn't before (aside from some pretty pointless new stops).

apart from the fact that the existing heavy rail service required major investment to allow it to continue for another decade or so, much more so than will be spent upgrading to Metrolink.

I bet (large sums of money) that patronage will increase all along the entire length of the line following converstion.

apart from the fact that the existing heavy rail service required major investment to allow it to continue for another decade or so, much more so than will be spent upgrading to Metrolink.

I bet (large sums of money) that patronage will increase all along the entire length of the line following converstion.

Agree. There are many reasons for and against it but lets face it until its up and running no one can judge it. They currently(or did) run old diesels up and down the lines. Soon those crappy pacers and what else was running will be replaced with brand new vehicles with an updated image. If there was no metrolink plan, am sure those trains would run for the next 20-30 years with no proper investment and local usage would start falling. The new trams will also be clean, so any local pollution from trains is gone. As someone whos watched the old heavy rail service replaced with Metrolink I can say the service overall has improved alot. There are still many bad points and new bad points. Some of those bad points which exist on the Alti line now, will never exist on the new lines. Example is ticket machines and live information. One problem which could exist from the success of the new lines is over crowding because am sure there will be a higher usage than there is now.

Timing through hasn't been a problem, so am not sure if this 15 minutes extra on journey time exists or not. It depends on the lines speed limit. The other thing is Electrical rail vehicles tend to have better acceleration and better breaking distances than their Diesel counterparts. If a pacer and a tram are stopping at every station at full speed I'd put my money on the tram being quicker overall. Since it doesn't spend over a minute at each station. Door are opened are closed in less than 20 seconds.

apart from the fact that the existing heavy rail service required major investment to allow it to continue for another decade or so, much more so than will be spent upgrading to Metrolink.

I bet (large sums of money) that patronage will increase all along the entire length of the line following converstion.

Be interesting to see the figures behind your first statement

On what basis do you bet that patronage will increase? Bearing in mind that Metrolink will more than likely be more expensive.

Based on the fact that Metrolink (Phase1) carries more than twice as many passengers on the Alty and Bury line than the old heavy rail lines used to.

Given the old heavy rail on Alty and Bury were of a much higher standard than the Oldham / Rochdale it is very fair to assume that there will be a higher rise in passenger figures compared to what we saw with Phase1.

Out of interest, if passenger figures do rise, and rise a lot would you consider the converstion to have been a success? If not, how would you measure it as having been a success?

Based on the fact that Metrolink (Phase1) carries more than twice as many passengers on the Alty and Bury line than the old heavy rail lines used to.

Given the old heavy rail on Alty and Bury were of a much higher standard than the Oldham / Rochdale it is very fair to assume that there will be a higher rise in passenger figures compared to what we saw with Phase1.

Out of interest, if passenger figures do rise, and rise a lot would you consider the converstion to have been a success? If not, how would you measure it as having been a success?

I'm not actually arguing with you but simply saying it'd be interesting to see the figures.

That's quite a simple logic to apply though isn't it? It doesn't take into account travel to work patterns or the leisure facilities nearby to the lines e.g. Old Trafford / the Trafford Centre

I do think that a rise in passenger figures would be a success, but would have to guage it against the level of investment. To do this requires a proper analysis of the cost of repairing the current heavy rail line against the cost of the metrolink extension. You would also need to luck at the trends of passenger numbers for the last few years of the heavy rail line.

As an aside, do you think the 2 year (2 and a half for the Shaw to Rochdale section) time frame for upgrade is particularly economical?

Urm, Trafford Centre is no where near the Alty line, and only opened 7 years after the converstion.

From memory, the old system carried about 4m passengers per year, the line (pre Eccles) carried over 16m passengers per year.

Fernando, do you not think that every single penny that is invested in Metrolink has to be justified over and over again? When such a bid goes into the DfT they have to explain, with enormous amount of evidence to back it up, that what is being proposed cannot be done for less money or other schemes could not achieve equal benefits.

Again, from memory, to bring the Oldham line up to standard (including bring up to DDA regs as is required) would cost a lot more than the light rail converstion.

With regards the time scales, they will have been acurately calculated in the cost benefit analysis that would have been submitted to the DfT, and it obviously has been worked out that over the 30 years of the life time of such a scheme that the benefits of this approach are higher than a potentially shorter (although probably well over a year) disruption of upgrading the existing track for heavy rail.

Remember that the track is shot to pieces on that line, it will have to be replaced be it for Metrolink or for heavy rail to continue, the only difference being that Metrolink also requires electricification of the line.

Replacing the whole length of track that long would take a very very long time presuming the approach taken would be a long closure (as has previously been the case on Metrolink).

In reality DfT probably would not fund such a track replacement as the c/b analysis would not be great, and over time the track may well be left to deteriate and over time the service be replaced with 'high quality bus routes' as Darling suggested in 2004 when he had to consider whether or not to fund this work.

The real chose in front of us in the long term is to allow the existing track to fall apart and the service to be replaced by buses (Dalring's chose in 2004) or to replace the track and upgrade to Metrolink, the option fought for my GMPTE.

The option of upgraded heavy rail was in reality never an option due to poor c/b figures.

Agree with you completely W0bz. Speaking as a Crumpsallite who works in Oldham, the main difference the original met made was to take you right into the heart of Manchester and 3a on its own misses the point. Presumably the problem is the big engineering between Werneth station and the town centre. Still think there should be a branch to the hospital...

PS where and how on the Oldham line will the drivers do the changeover? I can't work out how they will get to Queen's Road depot apart from trudging along what will be the rail link to it.


Probably at Piccadilly where the Eccles ones change over?

Urm, Trafford Centre is no where near the Alty line, and only opened 7 years after the converstion.

From memory, the old system carried about 4m passengers per year, the line (pre Eccles) carried over 16m passengers per year.

Fernando, do you not think that every single penny that is invested in Metrolink has to be justified over and over again? When such a bid goes into the DfT they have to explain, with enormous amount of evidence to back it up, that what is being proposed cannot be done for less money or other schemes could not achieve equal benefits.

Again, from memory, to bring the Oldham line up to standard (including bring up to DDA regs as is required) would cost a lot more than the light rail converstion.

With regards the time scales, they will have been acurately calculated in the cost benefit analysis that would have been submitted to the DfT, and it obviously has been worked out that over the 30 years of the life time of such a scheme that the benefits of this approach are higher than a potentially shorter (although probably well over a year) disruption of upgrading the existing track for heavy rail.

Remember that the track is shot to pieces on that line, it will have to be replaced be it for Metrolink or for heavy rail to continue, the only difference being that Metrolink also requires electricification of the line.

Replacing the whole length of track that long would take a very very long time presuming the approach taken would be a long closure (as has previously been the case on Metrolink).

In reality DfT probably would not fund such a track replacement as the c/b analysis would not be great, and over time the track may well be left to deteriate and over time the service be replaced with 'high quality bus routes' as Darling suggested in 2004 when he had to consider whether or not to fund this work.

The real chose in front of us in the long term is to allow the existing track to fall apart and the service to be replaced by buses (Dalring's chose in 2004) or to replace the track and upgrade to Metrolink, the option fought for my GMPTE.

The option of upgraded heavy rail was in reality never an option due to poor c/b figures.

Cheers for that fella, as I said I wasn't arguing, being new to the area I've missed a lot of this information!

I'm more pissed off at not having a service for 2 and a half years! However I must admit that the prospect of a tram into Manchester every 6 minutes does make Metrolink a more attractive proposition than it would be, despite the longer journey time.

Your door to door journey time will be lower.

Your wait will be shorter (on average) and you will be delivered closer to your destination at the other end.

Sorry to be a killjoy and correct me if I'm wrong - but isn't the Rochdale / Oldham section going to be single track and the frequency abt 12 mins?
I have a vague recollection of reading this and thinking what's the point?

I'll correct you, you are wrong.

There is a small section across a bridge (north of Shaw) where there will be a section of single track.

The rest will all be entirely new (or old West Coast Mainline anyway) double electrified tracks, with a 6mins headway to Shaw and half those (12mins headway) continuing to Rochdale.

IIRC, there will also be a short single track section in the vicinity of Dean Lane Station. It is required for for heavy rail trains to access Newton Heath TMD, as well as the GMWDA 'binliner' trains facility.

In hindsight, perhaps Oldham/Rochdale would have been ripe for Tram-Train conversion, by the time work is complete.

I'll correct you, you are wrong.

There is a small section across a bridge (north of Shaw) where there will be a section of single track.

The rest will all be entirely new (or old West Coast Mainline anyway) double electrified tracks, with a 6mins headway to Shaw and half those (12mins headway) continuing to Rochdale.
Thanks M€tr0l1nk. This is the source I was misremembering:
http://www.lrta.org/Manchester/Oldham_Rochdale.html

Thanks M€tr0l1nk. This is the source I was misremembering:
http://www.lrta.org/Manchester/Oldham_Rochdale.html



As far as I remember the line was to be re-doubled "as far as possible".

Cheers for that fella, as I said I wasn't arguing, being new to the area I've missed a lot of this information!

I'm more pissed off at not having a service for 2 and a half years! However I must admit that the prospect of a tram into Manchester every 6 minutes does make Metrolink a more attractive proposition than it would be, despite the longer journey time.

its not just the capital cost of track and vehicles, it is also the running costs. As a general rule, commuter light rail pays its way out of operating revenue - outside of London and the South East, that has prove impossible for heavy rail commuter services. If the current rail service were to operate without subidy, tickets would probaly be several times as expensive - which would then mean that nobody would travel. But sufficient numbers of people appear to be willing to pay a premium for the extra convenience of a frequent
service into the city centre. What are not so clear, is the degree to which the lack of town centre running in Rochdale and Oldham may reduce ridership on the new route.

As far as I remember the line was to be re-doubled "as far as possible".

No.

Double all the way to Rochdale except a couple of small sections.

Fernando Partridge-

The coversion to Metrolink of the Oldham Loop will provide a better service - more frequent - earlier starts and running later - currently the last train back from Victoria to Rochdale via Oldham is around 11:23 - and it's usally packed on a Friday and Saturday - believe me! also Sunday's current service is only 1/hour - had a Saturday night stay in a hotel in Manchester centre with some freinds friom Bury and came back on a Sunday - they were nearly home before our train had even left Victoria!

It will also provide easier onward travel to destinations other than the central zone - the Lowry for example.

I think 3a does fall short - but the current track is definietly in need of upgrade and those Pacers are the pits!

See : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EppsREtNsy4

Tram-Trains may have probably been a cheeper option and may have avoided the single track section @ Dean Lane but most of the the track would still need replacing and things are already in motion i.e. the extra trams have been ordered.

I agree that 2.5 years is a long time to do the conversion - but I think this is more to do with the funding and the waiting for the TIF rather than construction.

Many people will have converted to using cars and may not use the Metrolink but as it has been pointed out previously the Bury and Alt. services have proven a success - there is no reason why the Oldham -Rochdale line will not be either.

During conversion it may be quicker to get the bus from Shaw to Rochdale and get the train from there rather than the replacement bus service from Shaw to Manchester.

This may be of interest:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=142885255384

Its a facebook group about the Oldham and Rochdale Metrolink.

Has anyone noticed (or perhaps it was just today!) how much more 'alive' Mosley Street seems, with people walking to/from the tram at St Peters Sq?

Has anyone noticed (or perhaps it was just today!) how much more 'alive' Mosley Street seems, with people walking to/from the tram at St Peters Sq?

ive noticed a great queue at Victoria trying to squeeze on and off the platform at peak hours. the small gap crossing the line is a bottle neck for 300+ departing passengers... but alas, having a seat to work makes up for it!

What I have noticed is that they keep blocking one end of the platform at St Peters square so everyone is forced to que up to get onto the tram. I could not be doing with that so just walked up to G-Mex.

The current situation at the St Peter's Square stop around commuter time reminds me of the film Children of Men... okay a slight exaggeration but I'm bloody glad I don't work in Eccles any more, it looks an utter nightmare now! Yay for being laid off!

Standard fare to rise to 100pounds, 50pounds if paid in first 14days according to MEN.

Boading at St Peter's square in the morning is a fucking disaster, really, but I dont think there is a track cross over on the altrincham-manchester direction after cornbrook so not much they can do about being limited to a single platform?

Good! Perhaps these c**t's jibbing on free will now think twice. Or should that be 100 x's.

Tram fines to soar 9-fold
David Ottewell

April 22, 2009

FINES for fare-dodgers on Greater Manchester trams are rocketing by up to 900 per cent.

From next month, anyone caught without a valid ticket will be hit with a standard penalty of £100.

At the moment, the fine for a first offence is just £10 for those willing to pay on-the-spot. Transport chiefs said the crackdown - which starts on May 11 - was intended to send a strong message to cheats: buy a ticket or face the consequences.

The new system will mean a flat-rate fine for anyone caught without a ticket. The £100 penalty will be reduced to £50 if paid within 14 days.

Metrolink bosses currently use a complicated system of fines which depends how many times the offender has been caught in the past.

A first offence carries an on-the-spot fine of £10, or £15 if paid later. A second offence is £20 or £30, a third offence £40 or £60, and all subsequent offences £80.

The Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive, which owns the Metrolink network, has launched an information campaign to alert people to the move.

Campaign

Posters have gone on display on trams and at stops. Leaflets are being handed out to passengers.

GMPTE's Metrolink director Philip Purdy said: "We take fare evasion very seriously. The vast majority of passengers make sure they have bought a valid ticket before travelling.

"They shouldn't have to travel with the minority of people who choose not to pay. It's easy to buy a ticket - either at the stop or from over 200 PayPoint outlets across Greater Manchester. The new £100 standard fare sends out a strong message to passengers - buy a ticket or face the consequences."

All the money from fares and penalties goes back into running and maintaining the system. Metrolink inspectors, who patrol seven days a week, will be responsible for issuing the new, higher fines.

The number of inspectors was increased from 36 to 48 when Stagecoach took over the running of the system two years ago. Anyone who has not paid the £100 penalty within 21 days will face prosecution.

Two-hundred new Metrolink ticket machines will be installed by October 2011.

Have a conductor on every tram and have guards at every stop ,, this would stop immediatly , passengers will feel safer and use the trams more .

and the cost of providing such a service would increase the price of tickets enormously.

Have a conductor on every tram and have guards at every stop ,, this would stop immediatly , passengers will feel safer and use the trams more .

Yes, it would sto instantly because nobody would be able to afford a ticket anymore and the trams would run around empty.

I can see where this idea comes from, but pity the poor bastards who either lose their ticket, the flimsy paper dissolves in yer rain soaked trousers or worse yer wallet is nabbed. Double whammy.

Sounds more like an "increased revenue stream." in a recession.

Have a conductor on every tram and have guards at every stop ,, this would stop immediatly , passengers will feel safer and use the trams more .

and the cost of providing such a service would increase the price of tickets enormously.


Blackpool has always had conductors, Sheffield (also run by Stagecoach) started with just machines on the platforms but had such problems they introduced conductors as well and their fares seem cheaper than on Metrolink.

It is pointless increasing the on the spot fines if there is nobody checking tickets in the 1st place! I know I am an infrequent user but I think I've only every been checked a couple of times or so in the countless times I've used the Metro.

Yes it will cost money to employ more people but I am sure it would be a good investment because from what I've seen there are plenty of people who don't buy a ticket because there is little (almost no) chance of getting caught!

Also what are you supposed to do if you turn up and the machines are vandalised?

Just a thought - if they did have full time conductors they would'nt need to be spending around £5million on new ticket machines.

P.S.

I was wanting to post some photos but there doesn't seem to be anyway of "uploading" - anyone help?

Since no one else has mentioned it, the ticket machines at Bowker Vale have gone, replaced by real live members of staff! With limited amounts of change too!
Were they nicked (the ticket machines I mean)?

Since no one else has mentioned it, the ticket machines at Bowker Vale have gone, replaced by real live members of staff! With limited amounts of change too!
Were they nicked (the ticket machines I mean)?

They were broken into AGAIN!!

Assuming the fine for fare dodging was 100 pounds and the conductors were paid minimum wage, they would only need to catch one fare dodger a day each to more then pay their wages, and create a few hundred jobs for locals I would have thought.

How much does it cost to recover each fine on Metrolink?

I bet it is actually over £100 / person that does not pay up in the first 14 days.

Catching fare dodgers is not a simple case of automatically increasing revenue, instead it can increase costs by more than the amount of extra revenue is brought in, not only due to the extra conductors needed, but also the huge costs in recovering the money from people who do not want to pay.

In Blackpool, they created trams that operated like buses, where people would have to pay the driver. This probably wouldn't be practical in Manchester though.

When I went to Amsterdam, the trams there had little ticket offices on each tram so people could queue up without the tram having to remain stationary! Did get very overcrowded at times though.

Manchester Confidential.

EXCLUSIVE: New city centre tram system

Jonathan Schofield looks at a revolutionary idea for Manchester city centre from Steve Davies of MOSI


Steve Davies, the director of the MOSI, has a plan. It’s a plan that would transform the city centre. It would also boost Manchester’s tourist status in a charming, distinctive and huge way. Every school kid in the region would have to have a go as would every conference delegate and every visiting football fan.


“Look, I’m in this for the long term, to get more people to the museum and the city is what I’m interested in. To get people down to Castlefield is key. Whatever it costs it will be serious value for money.”



The plan is either astonishingly visionary or quite crazy. And Steve Davies knows it.

The MOSI director wants to bring back the trams.

Not another version of nippy, modern (‘this service is currently experiencing delays of up to twelve minutes’) trams, but old ones, as in these pictures.

But why?

“We need to break out of here,” says Davies, “and play a broader city role. We had 750,000 visitors last year and we want them to spend time not only in the museum but in the wider Castlefield area, we need to make the whole area a major city centre visitor attraction in its own right. I really don’t want MOSI to be seen as something which operates within the battlements of its outer walls but a place that also communicates with this remarkable two thousand year old area. So I asked myself a question: 'how does one link Castlefield with the city centre?' ”

Davies continues: “The answer to that is not bricks and mortar or signage but a transport link. I understand that people may think this is the most barking mad idea ever thought of but what I want to do is establish a 1920s vintage tram system which would operate from the lower car park at MOSI travelling all the way up Liverpool Road, via Windmill Street and Manchester Central to the Central Library or St Peter’s Square. This would mean the heritage experience of Castlefield would begin in the city centre. We would recycle trams from Blackpool, in the Manchester livery, and we would have a tourist attraction in its own right which would bring in large numbers of visitors and be used by residents too.

“The first step is to create awareness of an idea. We’ve produced a visualisation of what the system might look like and we have that possible route – it may eventually go a different way, perhaps through Spinningfields and help animate that space. Remember the system would be an experience in its own right, it doesn’t have to go quickly from A to B, the journey itself is part of the excitement that would attract investment all along its route.”

http://www.manchesterconfidential.com/images/22409tram2.jpg

But this would be astronomically expensive wouldn’t it?

“Stage one is to get a critical mass of awareness,” says Davies. “Stage two is to produce a feasibility study to look at the real practicalities - there are professional tramway people we would engage with - and look at the price tag.”

So does Steve Davies really see that his tram plan may happen?

“Look, I’m here at the museum for the long term. I want to get more people to the museum. The plan is to have a visitor attraction in its own right that brings visitors to the city in large numbers. I want to get them from the city centre and down to Castlefield. Whatever it costs it will be serious value for money.”

Davies articulates this with passion and conviction. He's convinced of its value. The idea would certainly be a massive tourist boost for the city. Inevitably people will use the argument that we don’t want to turn Manchester into a tourist theme park, a north western Beamish (the re-created tourist town in County Durham). It's an argument that readers have used on these pages before, but a moment's consideration makes a nonsense of such worries.

This writer has been a tourist guide in the city for many years and what we lack desperately is obvious tourism, we need to give the impression to tourists, conference delegates and people visiting friends and family, that we are really geared up for tourism. We need to make it obvious, slap them in the face with it, make them spend.

We might wish to compare ourselves with Liverpool in this, in the way their museums (in part due to their administration) work together, how they have coordinated the Beatles tourism, how they have the Dukw vehicle trundling through the streets and into the docks and so forth. At present all we have is an occasional and truly crap tourist bus with recorded commentary

http://www.manchesterconfidential.com/images/22409tram1.jpg

Starting from simple information signs and history boards, via statues of, say, The Smiths to major projects such as Davies' tramway, we need to up the game. If that means bringing in some cheesy or obvious tourism then so be it. Back to The Smiths statue for instance, thousands of Morrissey and Smiths' fans come to Manchester every year and would love a city centre focus where they could have their photo taken. At present, despite making big strides forward with good work from agencies such as Visit and Marketing Manchester, we are simply not making the most of Manchester’s remarkable story.

Being visionary has always been part of the city’s psyche. Take the Manchester Plan of 1945 after war damage: it was part crazy in that it wanted to demolish the Town Hall, but it also had seriously good ideas, many of which have come to fruition over the years - such as a purpose built concert hall and the greening of city squares and making the city easier to travel through for pedestrians.

Steve Davies’s ideas for a vintage tramway are welcome, their realisation would be remarkable. Think of all the money spent on canals, many of which travel down the back sides of redundant mills and through brick fields: few people use them relative to the cost of restoration. Of course waterways are lovely and of course it's grand that they’ve been restored, but a city centre vintage tram way system would surely have more visitors in a month than Rochdale Canal gets in a year.

The Castlefield debate at the Town Hall last night (Tuesday 22 April) with Sir Howard Bernstein in attendance will be reported on this Friday.

I would really love to see that dream become a reality. Perhaps one day we could a the second city crossing turned into a circular route like they have in Melbourne or Portland

Back to reality anyways... Its like 1990 all over again

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/DSC00590.jpg

Catching fare dodgers is not a simple case of automatically increasing revenue, instead it can increase costs by more than the amount of extra revenue is brought in, not only due to the extra conductors needed, but also the huge costs in recovering the money from people who do not want to pay.

I agree M€tr0l1nk, catching fare dodgers is not simple, if you don't have enough inspection staff, how do you know the real rate of fare dodgers?

Too many staff will affect costs of fares but so will having too few, as people don't pay becauses they think (they know) they have a good chance of getting away with it, which results in lost revenue and yes higher fares to compensate!

It's a case of having enough ticket inspectors to get as many people as possible to buy a ticket in the 1st place but there will always be those that don't and they should have the fine doubled at each re-offence .

In my opinion there isn't enough of them and many people seem to chance it without paying.

In Blackpool, they created trams that operated like buses, where people would have to pay the driver. This probably wouldn't be practical in Manchester though.



As an-exBlackppol lad I know, not a fan of these :ohno:

Wobz - after 20 odd years I tink te current management have a fair idea about ow to maximise revenue, probably much more than any of us you sit on the outside and have no experience watsoever of running any rail service.

btw - my HHH key does not work properly...

Wobz - after 20 odd years I tink te current management have a fair idea about ow to maximise revenue, probably much more than any of us you sit on the outside and have no experience watsoever of running any rail service.

That doesn't mean people on the outside can't make suggestions for improving the service.

If Nottingham can have conductors on it's trams and still make a small profit, then there is obviously a business case as well as a passanger safety one for conductors.

Independent surveys suggest there are (many) more fare dodgers in Nottingham compared to Manchester.

Wobz - after 20 odd years I tink te current management have a fair idea about ow to maximise revenue, probably much more than any of us you sit on the outside and have no experience watsoever of running any rail service.

You would have thought so! I'm not convinced ;)

How long has Mr Darling been in Goverment? And do think he's done a good job so far?

Why are other tram/LTR services using conductors or seem to have more inspectors?

Apply for the GMPTE head role, £200k / year, you clearly know more than anyone who has done the job previously.

Tell me, what % do not pay in Nottingham, Sheffield, Croydon etc.

Also, let me know what you plan for the trams during the rush hours when the trams are full, and the late night when the trams are empty.

btw, 3% in Manc.

Apply for the GMPTE head role, £200k / year, you clearly know more than anyone who has done the job previously.

Tell me, what % do not pay in Nottingham, Sheffield, Croydon etc.

Also, let me know what you plan for the trams during the rush hours when the trams are full, and the late night when the trams are empty.

£200k / year - don't fancy a pay cut :lol:

Only joking,

M€tr0l1nk You are right I am not an expert, at least not in running trams or light rail systems, well maybe not yet at least ;)

Sheffield, Nottingham and Blackpool have conductors (et al) , I am not saying Manchester should as well - being on a Metro in central Manchester in rush hour I know there is no room. But if they can have conductors then Manchester could have more inspectors, that's all I'm saying.

What are these sources - could you quote them? I am intrested.

They've been in Piccadilly Gardens station this afternoon. They were painting lovely neat white lines along the edge of the platform, probably for the passengers that will never come as it's about to be demolished and rebuilt. I wonder if they have done Mosley Street too?

Apply for the GMPTE head role, £200k / year, you clearly know more than anyone who has done the job previously.

Tell me, what % do not pay in Nottingham, Sheffield, Croydon etc.

Also, let me know what you plan for the trams during the rush hours when the trams are full, and the late night when the trams are empty.

Stop being a smart arse, he's making decent suggestions.

There is certainly a case to be made for conductors, and I'd also be interested to know how data on fare dodging is obtained since by it's very nature, most fare dodging goes unrecorded.

Maybe conductors are not needed however more inspectors would certainly be beneficial. One interesting point is would it be more profitable if everybody on the system paid their fare and nobody got caught, or if fare dodging continued and the inspectors made a handy profit off catching them out.

Say a fare is £2 then one caught fare dodger yields a higher profit then 49 dodgers buying a ticket.

Inspectors on the bendy buses in London have become miles more frequent in the past two years, I used to get the 25 bus to uni every day and never paid but I wouldn't do that now it's way too risky.

Please stop making the assumption that catching a fare dodger will definately make you money.

If it costs £1,000 to take someone to court to get the money from them then you have lost over £900 trying to recoup the fare of that one person.


As I am sure you know, INDEPENDENT companies survey all light rail and the tube in the UK and using quite complex methods calculate the amount of fare dodgers on every system.

Metrolink is about 3% - which is LOWER than every other comparable UK system, including the tube! I bet you don't believe this, but hey, what do an independent company that look at all UK systems know compared to someone with the experience you have of the sector?

Anyway, if you have conductors there is a cultural change, people expect to only have to pay if they come across a conductor, travel in Nottingham, watch how many people make short journeys and never have to pay as the conductor is simply too busy.

With regards the number of inspectors, I take it you accept that there must be an optimal number, as after a while you are simply increasing the costs to the average fare paying passenger, yet not getting any additional revenue.

Do you not think that after 20 years, and four companies in charge of protecting revenue, that those people running the scheme may have a slightly better idea of how to do that than people sat on the outside with no ideas of the facts and figures.

For example, do you have any idea which journeys are most frequently not paid for? Are the people not paying half or full fare passengers? What time of day? What day? Will they pay up in 14 days if they are caught? What percentage need to be taken to court (incredibly expensive)? How much does it cost to employ a ticket inspector?.....

Since we are without the answers to those questions, plus many more, I personally think those with the facts, who are responsible have probably got a better chance of knowing the optimal level of ticket inspectors than us without a clue about how to run a light rail network.

Stop being a smart arse, he's making decent suggestions.

There is certainly a case to be made for conductors, and I'd also be interested to know how data on fare dodging is obtained since by it's very nature, most fare dodging goes unrecorded.

Maybe conductors are not needed however more inspectors would certainly be beneficial. One interesting point is would it be more profitable if everybody on the system paid their fare and nobody got caught, or if fare dodging continued and the inspectors made a handy profit off catching them out.

Say a fare is £2 then one caught fare dodger yields a higher profit then 49 dodgers buying a ticket.

Inspectors on the bendy buses in London have become miles more frequent in the past two years, I used to get the 25 bus to uni every day and never paid but I wouldn't do that now it's way too risky.

Trams go twice as fast a buses, and carry twice the number of passengers when full. That makes running the system using conductors impractical if the trams run at capacity at peak.

Packed, there will be 200 passengers on a Metrolink tram at commuter time - and most journeys will take around 20 minutes. So a single conductor wolud have to collect 10 fares a minute. This is possible only if everybody has the right change, and nobody wants to pay by credit card. Or if most people pre-pay with a season ticket. But if a lot of people are riding for free, then there is less incentive to buy a season ticket. The Nottingham system, which has conductors, loses about 20% of peak fares for this reason. Everyone knows that if you ride the tram with your fare in your hand, there will be many days when it will not be collected - without any risk of prosectution for non-payment. The "solution" is to have two conductors, but that would double the cost of collection.

The logistics of walking along a tram as full as they get in the morning or before football carrying cash and a ticket machine seems to be being ignored as well here, also, what about the security of some bloke walking along inside a tram, carrying lots of cash.

Not sure I would want to be doing that late at night along the Eccles line.

[QUOTE=jrb;35639596]Manchester Confidential.

EXCLUSIVE: New city centre tram system

Jonathan Schofield looks at a revolutionary idea for Manchester city centre from Steve Davies of MOSI



http://www.manchesterconfidential.com/images/22409tram1.jpg

This is a cracking idea. :banana:

Manchester thrives on firsts and a slightly different way of doing things. Any great city needs a handful of landmark buildings/schemes/projects that set it aside from its competitors.

Manchester almost has a critical mass to make it worth Americans and other international tourists putting it onto their list of "must-visits". After they've been to Lundun, Edin-dull, Bath (yawn), OxBridge even (dare I say it) Liverpool there's no reason why just a handful of new exciting schemes couldn't force Manchester into that kind of agenda.

This is just the kind of idea that will help that process.

On top of that it would be great for local people to connect better and value more the MOSI which is (IMHO) a hugely undervalued asset to the city.

As I'll be winning the EuroMillions tonight, I'll put some cash in for sure! :-) :cheers:

^^ I totally agree with the guy about Manchester not exploiting it's heritage enough and us needing more in your face, obvious tourist attractions, cheesy or not, many tourist attractions are. I hope this comes to fruition, also does anyone know what's happening with the MOSI extension, is it dead now?

http://blogs.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/politics/2009/04/behind_closed_doors_transport.html - will it come to anything???

^^ I totally agree with the guy about Manchester not exploiting it's heritage enough and us needing more in your face, obvious tourist attractions, cheesy or not, many tourist attractions are. I hope this comes to fruition, also does anyone know what's happening with the MOSI extension, is it dead now?

I believe the MOSI extension (both the glass roof over the car park and the acquisition and expansion into former Upper Campfield market hall into a new transport museum) are still going ahead, only with a longer timeline as a search is made to replace the lottery funding. The new leader appears pretty enthusiastic about getting it done and its in the Visit Manchester guide its placed as a story which will happen not may happen so would guess so.

As for the Tram idea, if it can be done cheapish (which was suggested by the lack of need to close down and improve all the utilities due to the seasonal nature of the tourist offer) and it could feasibly done (I'm not sure if those trams could fit under the bridge under the GMEX which I think was the route suggested) without being too much of a problem for current road systems etc then it could be a really great idea.

As said, bringing out the old trams, essentially museum pieces in themselves, expand the scope of the museum and really link it in better to the city while providing something of interest and potentially a useful service akin to the Metroshuttles. I think it would be great if they could link directly into the Castlefield canal area which I believe is one of the nicest areas of the city but so easily missed and walked past without realising it exists. Although even less likely, a circular route which connects more of the cities attractions maybe worth considering if this was to go ahead.

The tram idea does appear extravagant and maybe quite silly but if it could be done for £2 or £3m then maybe it will end up going ahead. In any case work needs to be done to improve the MoSI offering. A museum located in arguably the birthplace of the industrial revolution with the oldest original station buildings should be known of more. When a city like Dublin is mentioned the Guiness factory/museum is quickly raised. Now its not a bad place but personally I thinks not really any better than MoSI which does not herald the same sort of attention. MoSI could really be a tourist anchor to the city, bringing in both more people to the city and as a result other attractions. A tram system would bring more to the museum while making it really obvious as well as garnering a lot of media attention and publicity when it was put in place. You can say its their fault but I know many many student which have been here for years and don't even know that MoSI exists or know very little about it. The extension into the Upper Campfield Market will make the museum clearly visible from the throughfare of Deansgate but a Tram would be unmissable for any visitor.

http://blogs.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/politics/2009/04/behind_closed_doors_transport.html - will it come to anything???

Indeed, that was what i was alluding to on the Brum thread,

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=35581294&postcount=512

Heard about it reading something from a campaign group connected with the issue that was complaining that the AGMA's reprioritorisation seems to be focussing particularly on all the larger projects that were to be funded by TIF. I think the findings will be published in May. There is an AGMA calender of events lying about somwhere talking about it.

Metrolink is about 3% - which is LOWER than every other comparable UK system, including the tube! I bet you don't believe this, but hey, what do an independent company that look at all UK systems know compared to someone with the experience you have of the sector?



I conducted for a bit in Blackpool as a summer job a few years ago and have done shedloads of work on transport planning for my degree so I think I'm more qualified then most on here to comment on the matter.

Anyway, if you have conductors there is a cultural change, people expect to only have to pay if they come across a conductor, travel in Nottingham, watch how many people make short journeys and never have to pay as the conductor is simply too busy.



In Blackpool they have 2 conductors on the larger trams, works a treat. And they get well over a hundred people on the trams when it's busy (granted it's not really comparable to Metrolink rush hour but it proves that more conductors is easily possible and financially viable)




Do you not think that after 20 years, and four companies in charge of protecting revenue, that those people running the scheme may have a slightly better idea of how to do that than people sat on the outside with no ideas of the facts and figures.



Maybe I don't agree with this, there are older systems who still use conductors.




For example, do you have any idea which journeys are most frequently not paid for? Are the people not paying half or full fare passengers? What time of day? What day? Will they pay up in 14 days if they are caught? What percentage need to be taken to court (incredibly expensive)? How much does it cost to employ a ticket inspector?.....

Since we are without the answers to those questions, plus many more, I personally think those with the facts, who are responsible have probably got a better chance of knowing the optimal level of ticket inspectors than us without a clue about how to run a light rail network.

Most probably but they are still open to change, you don't need to be quite so unbearably arrogant all of the time. And if we say there are 20 million journeys annually and 3% don't pay, there's 600,000 people dodging, that's a lot of money to be losing. How do you propose we prevent this from happening?

Gone in today. No Docs yet.

089636/FO/2009/N1

Manchester Metrolink Phase 3A
MPT Central Park Compound
Monsall Road
Harpurhey

Site compound for use in connection with the construction of Metrolink Phase 3A scheme until the 31st December 2010 and associated footpath diversions

[QUOTE=jrb;35639596]Manchester Confidential.

EXCLUSIVE: New city centre tram system

Jonathan Schofield looks at a revolutionary idea for Manchester city centre from Steve Davies of MOSI

http://www.manchesterconfidential.com/images/22409tram1.jpg

This is a cracking idea. :banana:

Manchester thrives on firsts and a slightly different way of doing things. Any great city needs a handful of landmark buildings/schemes/projects that set it aside from its competitors.

Manchester almost has a critical mass to make it worth Americans and other international tourists putting it onto their list of "must-visits". After they've been to Lundun, Edin-dull, Bath (yawn), OxBridge even (dare I say it) Liverpool there's no reason why just a handful of new exciting schemes couldn't force Manchester into that kind of agenda.

This is just the kind of idea that will help that process.

On top of that it would be great for local people to connect better and value more the MOSI which is (IMHO) a hugely undervalued asset to the city.

As I'll be winning the EuroMillions tonight, I'll put some cash in for sure! :-) :cheers:

Dear Bumble Bee,

:cheers:

Please stop making the assumption that catching a fare dodger will definately make you money.

If it costs £1,000 to take someone to court to get the money from them then you have lost over £900 trying to recoup the fare of that one person.


As I am sure you know, INDEPENDENT companies survey all light rail and the tube in the UK and using quite complex methods calculate the amount of fare dodgers on every system.

Metrolink is about 3% - which is LOWER than every other comparable UK system, including the tube! I bet you don't believe this, but hey, what do an independent company that look at all UK systems know compared to someone with the experience you have of the sector?

Anyway, if you have conductors there is a cultural change, people expect to only have to pay if they come across a conductor, travel in Nottingham, watch how many people make short journeys and never have to pay as the conductor is simply too busy.

With regards the number of inspectors, I take it you accept that there must be an optimal number, as after a while you are simply increasing the costs to the average fare paying passenger, yet not getting any additional revenue.

Do you not think that after 20 years, and four companies in charge of protecting revenue, that those people running the scheme may have a slightly better idea of how to do that than people sat on the outside with no ideas of the facts and figures.

For example, do you have any idea which journeys are most frequently not paid for? Are the people not paying half or full fare passengers? What time of day? What day? Will they pay up in 14 days if they are caught? What percentage need to be taken to court (incredibly expensive)? How much does it cost to employ a ticket inspector?.....

Since we are without the answers to those questions, plus many more, I personally think those with the facts, who are responsible have probably got a better chance of knowing the optimal level of ticket inspectors than us without a clue about how to run a light rail network.


It seems M€tr0l1nk that you have proved nothing other than you seem to get hot under the collar when people have a different opinion than yourself.

You admitted yourself you haven't got the answers yet you still throw the figure of 3% about without (as yet) quoting your refrence(s) - in other words it's no more valid than opinion unless you can back it up, which I am sure you can.

I am willing to admit that I can not back up my opinion of more inspectors are needed other than my own experance and that of reason - other system employ conductors, which some seem to agree that it wouldn't really be the answer for Metrolink. These companies have also made their buisnes models and analysis - are they wrong - maybe, maybe not. Sheffield has been running nearly as long as the Metrolink and Blackpool considerably longer!

It is clear that Stagecoach didn't think the optimum no. of inspectors had been reached or it wouldn't have increased them when it took over - which someone else mentioned previously.

I guess you would have argued just as strongly before they did that that no more inspectors were needed.

You rightly raise a number of issues that effect the figures and they are valid points - that's whay I asked you to quote your references, I'd like to look into this further - may be I am wrong - maybe not, it doesn't matter which of us thinks we are right - we are not in a position to directly change anything - but I would say we all have a vested intrest on how any tram/Light rail system is run as there will be no future goverment investement if any system looks like it is not viable - not good for any of us no matter which system we use.

I will not continue this any further but I await your references with intrest.

Manchester Confidential.

EXCLUSIVE: New city centre tram system

Jonathan Schofield looks at a revolutionary idea for Manchester city centre from Steve Davies of MOSI

Davies continues: “The answer to that is not bricks and mortar or signage but a transport link. I understand that people may think this is the most barking mad idea ever thought of but what I want to do is establish a 1920s vintage tram system which would operate from the lower car park at MOSI travelling all the way up Liverpool Road, via Windmill Street and Manchester Central to the Central Library or St Peter’s Square. This would mean the heritage experience of Castlefield would begin in the city centre. We would recycle trams from Blackpool, in the Manchester livery, and we would have a tourist attraction in its own right which would bring in large numbers of visitors and be used by residents too.


http://www.manchesterconfidential.com/images/22409tram2.jpg





The one thing I am not sure about, as an ex-Blackpool lad, is the trams repainted in Manchester colours :ohno:

Other than that, it's an excellent idea, one of the reasons Blackpool trams carried on was/is the tourists that use them during their stay/visit - some people even vistit Blackpool just for the trams. :)

Here goes, 1st post with pics (need to work on this a bit).

The Before

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt286/W0bz_photos/Metrolink%20-%20Edge%20Lane/Edge_Lane_before.jpg


Taken from:
http://www.gmpte.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=4192950




Get ready for the road works!


http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt286/W0bz_photos/Metrolink%20-%20Edge%20Lane/DSC01343.jpg


Looks if this still has to come down:

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt286/W0bz_photos/Metrolink%20-%20Edge%20Lane/DSC01348.jpg




The houses have already gone:

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt286/W0bz_photos/Metrolink%20-%20Edge%20Lane/DSC01342.jpg



Looking up Manchester Road towards Droylsden (on the left):

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt286/W0bz_photos/Metrolink%20-%20Edge%20Lane/DSC01347.jpg


Looking up Manchester Road towards Droylsden (on the right):

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt286/W0bz_photos/Metrolink%20-%20Edge%20Lane/DSC01349.jpg


Artist's impression when complete:

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt286/W0bz_photos/Metrolink%20-%20Edge%20Lane/Edge_Lane_after.jpg

taken from:
http://www.gmpte.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=4192950

How many pages on bloody conductors!!!!!

Not sure I want to ancient tram as opposed to erm ancient metrolink trams.

Personally it doesnt quite fit into my Manchester is modernity thinking, but hey it might be better than the bloody bus though!!

Sounds like an excellent idea. Last year when I was in San Francisco I took one of their vintage tram cars from Fisherman's Wharf to the Castro. They were very popular and used not just by tourists. Would really like to see this. Why not run them down Deansgate to Victoria and from St Peter's Square thru to Northern Quarter along Fountain Street (should be possible without crossing the Metro I think).

The one thing I am not sure about, as an ex-Blackpool lad, is the trams repainted in Manchester colours :ohno:

Other than that, it's an excellent idea, one of the reasons Blackpool trams carried on was/is the tourists that use them during their stay/visit - some people even vistit Blackpool just for the trams. :)

Spot on W0bz, it's largely because of the trams me and Mrs Zim Flyer are moving to Blackpool :)

There was a report in the Blackpool Gazette that Blackpool will be building a Tram Museam next to the new Tram depot at Starr Gate, it would make sense if a future Blackpool Tram museam and the Manchester one were to set up some sort of partnership to trade exhibits and displays etc

How many pages on bloody conductors!!!!!

Not sure I want to ancient tram as opposed to erm ancient metrolink trams.

Personally it doesnt quite fit into my Manchester is modernity thinking, but hey it might be better than the bloody bus though!!

Check out the Portland system. Id certainly like to see something like this in Manchester one day! Look at all those tracks, like a proper system , YEAH!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/title-portlandvt.jpg

http://world.nycsubway.org/us/portland/trolley.html

Nice pictures by the way Wobz. Hope you can carry on getting photos as the work progresses

I know the Conductor thing has now been done to death, it will never happen. Perhaps turnstiles at the stations? The scum bags would probably jump right over unless you had those serious 6ft high rotating ones

Check out the Portland system. Id certainly like to see something like this in Manchester one day! Look at all those tracks, like a proper system , YEAH!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/title-portlandvt.jpg

http://world.nycsubway.org/us/portland/trolley.html

Nice pictures by the way Wobz. Hope you can carry on getting photos as the work progresses

I know the Conductor thing has now been done to death, it will never happen. Perhaps turnstiles at the stations? The scum bags would probably jump right over unless you had those serious 6ft high rotating ones

The stations are way too open for turnstiles, people could just walk down the tracks 10 metres and jump up. The only way you could get around the problem is if the city centre stations were put underground and had turnstile exits. With only a few stations to man, the wage costs shouldn't be too high, people could just get off early and walk but it should partially sort the problem. There isn't any point thinking about it as its a pie in the sky dream idea.

A question for the metro drivers/people knowledgeable about Metro operations -

The London underground (from what I've been led to believe) can't run through the night apart from the exception, due to the need for regular maintenance. I would have thought this shouldn't be such a problem on the newer lines like the Jubilee, I guess it either still is due to the nature of tunnels and water or there is less need for it if the other lines are closed.

Anyway, if in the future, there was the demand could the Metrolink be run through the night 24/7 (like in NY), or even just until 2 or 3 or just on weekends? Or would there be any physical restraints which would stop it being possible?

Ah those Frisco trams, ah those Krakow trams.

Its like English folk and Irish folk music. One is a continous narrative, the other is a almost contrived and uncertain revisit of something lost past.

Love it to ride on the oldest, most authentic Krakow tor Prague trams to sense the history, I could never truly feel. Imagination born of Kafka novels, Joy Division, Solidarity badges on my mum's bike to union meetings. That whole doomed romantic central European feel. Romantic when reality is Denton and then the 201 bus to town.

I think the old is first functional yet romantic, but with a back of the head thought that one day we will modernised them.

The uniqueness of the older trams well its nostalgic. Delicate but powerful.

The first trip to town with your mum, your granddad, fish and chips, maybe that first site of the pacific if you are American, maybe for me the irish sea, Isle of man in the mist. The water that divides us, but brings me towards where our lot comes from.


But.



Technology has an allure. A newness, what we all what, a freshness.

Hope in any language.

Its what we see in our children, the buzz of the latest download, the newest signing at our football club, the next fashion trend. The thrill of a new relationship.



Sure have those theme park trams running down Liverpool St. Sure when the days of hope appear to vanish in another failure of capitalism lets look to the past.

I mean those retro Smith;s covers said it all. A doom of the today, a wish for yesterday when things were better not bitter

But sooner we live in this century with today's technology, the better. Its a bollocks idea in other words from someone whose jobs is to live in an age of memories. Trying to make more money for his bosses at his musuem,

Above

bump

Spot on W0bz, it's largely because of the trams me and Mrs Zim Flyer are moving to Blackpool :)

There was a report in the Blackpool Gazette that Blackpool will be building a Tram Museam next to the new Tram depot at Starr Gate, it would make sense if a future Blackpool Tram museam and the Manchester one were to set up some sort of partnership to trade exhibits and displays etc


Good luck on the move Zim.

Not sure I'd move somewhere just for trams (even if Mrs W0bz would let me!) but if I did I think Melbourne would be top of the list, check this out (if you haven't already) :)

http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/maps-stations-stops/metropolitan-trams/ (http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/maps-stations-stops/metropolitan-trams/)

They are looking for trainee tram drivers!

Also noticed that the melbourne system has a FREE circle route!


I think a tie up between Manchester and Blackpool on the museum front would be a good idea to improve public awareness etc. Let's hope funding is not going to be an issue for either Manchester or Blackpool.




Nice pictures by the way Wobz. Hope you can carry on getting photos as the work progresses



Thanks for that Local Lad. Will try and keep it up (as long I carry on working near by that is). Also want to try and get some of the Oldham Loop Line before work starts and obviously as work progresses.

Nice pic/link of the Portland system showing new and old can work together. :)

Get ready for the road works!


http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt286/W0bz_photos/Metrolink%20-%20Edge%20Lane/DSC01343.jpg



:lol: Three years of major roadworks and they still put "Sorry for any inconvenience". Someone at the council has a sense of humour...

I walked down Sheffield st today (dodging prossies at every pace).
I've never been round the back of Piccadilly station before and I must say, it is an absolute shithole.

What a depressing journey it will be for all the East-mancunians going home on the tram after spending a day out in the shiney city.

The huge carpark that pins Shef st to the railway arches seems like a great place to stick the possible new Coach station.
A pedstrian route towards town via Picc's undercroft would be lovely too. :D

I live in Droylsden and im definitely not looking forward to them roadworks at Edge lane, its a nightmare at rush hour regardless of any roadworks.

Looks like ill be going the long way round up North Rd for a fair while. :ohno:

I walked down Sheffield st today (dodging prossies at every pace).
I've never been round the back of Piccadilly station before and I must say, it is an absolute shithole.

What a depressing journey it will be for all the East-mancunians going home on the tram after spending a day out in the shiney city.

The huge carpark that pins Shef st to the railway arches seems like a great place to stick the possible new Coach station.
A pedstrian route towards town via Picc's undercroft would be lovely too. :D

It's pretty depressing getting the tram to Alty between Cornbrook and Old Trafford.

See desolate Pomona Dock!
Marvel at the empty toothpaste factory of Ordsall!
Gaze upon the delights of the Big Yellow Storage and Cement works in Old Trafford!

It's hardly "look upon my works ye mighty and despair" is it?

Back of Piccadilly could do with being opened up. Problem is from a regeneration point of view there's very little there to encourage even very long term development. No mills or warehouses of any interest, no period housing, no old pubs or shops with character. There's not going to be a huge amount of development over the next 10 years, and what there is will find better sites than this one.

The tourist trams thing can work brilliantly - quite a few US cities have done a good job but my favouraite example of it, for its sheer "bloody hell I wasn't expecting that"-ness is Christchurch, in New Zealand: http://www.tram.co.nz/

The early days...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQVFx2dHtVY

The early days...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQVFx2dHtVY

Nice one Nistromo
I remember seeing them build and trail in St Peters Square when I worked in the Town Hall. How proud everyone was as the system took shape! Good to see that video, nice post.

Incidently:
Anyone ever seen any footage of the original early Manchester trams in 1940s/50s?

Incidently:
Anyone ever seen any footage of the original early Manchester trams in 1940s/50s?

http://www.nwfa.mmu.ac.uk:591/search/FMPro?-db=webcat.fp3&-format=record%5fdetail.htm&-lay=web&-sortfield=dates&Global=manchester%20trams&-max=10&-recid=33113&-find=

The stations are way too open for turnstiles, people could just walk down the tracks 10 metres and jump up. The only way you could get around the problem is if the city centre stations were put underground and had turnstile exits. With only a few stations to man, the wage costs shouldn't be too high, people could just get off early and walk but it should partially sort the problem. There isn't any point thinking about it as its a pie in the sky dream idea.

http://covblogs.com/eatingbark/archives/800px-Bus_Stops_2_curitiba_brasil.jpg

The solution

http://covblogs.com/eatingbark/archives/800px-Bus_Stops_2_curitiba_brasil.jpg

The solution

Fair enough, I was wrong. There is an above ground solution and as a bonus, it also keeps you protected from the wind and rain while you wait.

Been throuh this before.

We (will) have different styles of trams - the doors will not be in the same place - will not work.

In the UK our H&S laws would mean it would need manning - how will this be paid for?

Notice the lack of ramps, obviously in a country with much laxer DDA laws.

Perhaps the ultimate solution would be to make street/city-centre stations 'no charge' areas, with the suburban stations barriered instead?

Ultimate sky-blue thinking - tax on workplace/residential parking (families with more than one car/car-based commuting), to pay for 'free' public transport/trams?

Why would you make those people pay a huge amount more (to subsidise the free journeys that end in the city centre and the staff to man these turnstiles) that travel between suburban stops?

Surely the idea of catching more fare dodgers would be to reduce the revenue lost rather than massively raise the costs in running the system?

Why would you make those people pay a huge amount more (to subsidise the free journeys that end in the city centre and the staff to man these turnstiles) that travel between suburban stops?

Surely the idea of catching more fare dodgers would be to reduce the revenue lost rather than massively raise the costs in running the system?

You have to weight up the economic case for and against measures to stop it. There are ways of cutting it but I don't think you can be reasoned with to much. One interesting thing is Stagecoach took on 12 more inspectors when they took over. If they can't afford more staff how come they did that? The other big thing is its estimated 15% of people don't buy a ticket. 15% of 18-20 Million journeys a year. That must warrant a number of the City Centre stations having some sort of barriers or part time manned stations to check the masses to cut that figure.

One thing which would have cut that number and increased usage was the manc style oyster card but I think that's dead now?

on a comletely different note, am i the only person who has noticed lots of stuff happening around old trafford station:

*ellisnore road (runs parallel to the track) closed from the 18th of may
*yellow lines painted on the track, looks like where the chorlton line branches off
* lots of tree clearence

http://covblogs.com/eatingbark/archives/800px-Bus_Stops_2_curitiba_brasil.jpg

The solution

I can't imagine that working on a dark, cold November evening at St Peter's square where hundreds of people are trying to look down the line to see if the next tram is an Alty or an Eccles.

WORK to create the foundations of a new Metrolink depot in Trafford will get under way this month

10:00am Wednesday 6th May 2009

WORK to create the foundations of a new Metrolink depot in Trafford will get under way this month.

GMPTE (Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive) is overseeing the creation of the tram depot on a triangle of land near Trafford Bar.

Forty new trams are due to start running on the Metrolink system over the next two to three years and four new tram lines will be opening in a £600 million expansion project.

MPact-Thales - the consortium appointed to design, build and maintain the new lines and depot - will create the foundations and install drainage at the site over the next couple of months.

People will be able to find out more about the project from Metrolink officials at two drop-in sessions: Kings Road Primary School, Stretford, May 12, 6pm to 8pm.

Chorlton Library, June 2, 5pm to 8pm.

New Metrolink lines are currently being built to MediaCityUK in Salford ,Chorlton, Droylsden in East Manchester, Oldham and Rochdale.

http://www.messengernewspapers.co.uk/news/4343884.New_Metrolink_depot_in_Trafford_gets_under_way/

Why would you make those people pay a huge amount more (to subsidise the free journeys that end in the city centre and the staff to man these turnstiles) that travel between suburban stops?

Surely the idea of catching more fare dodgers would be to reduce the revenue lost rather than massively raise the costs in running the system?

What about having the seven city centre stations barriered and manned (on the Istanbul light rail service they do this with one man per platform in a street running set up similar to Manchester's) and then revenue inspectors in the suburbs?

Alternatively copy the Portland model and have a "fareless square" for all journeys within the city centre and then you could use the inspectors at strategic pinch points (Cornbrook, Piccadilly, Victoria) to catch fare evaders travelling in?

Just looking at a basic CBR there wouldn't seem to be much point, but having manned city centre stations offers extra benefits in terms of safety that may increase usage outside peak hours (I know several women who won't use the tram after dark if alone) or free city centre travel would improve cross city connectivity (for bus-tram-bus journeys).

The reason it has never happened is because manning every station would cost a dam sight more that the additional revenue that you would get.

Given the system has to pay for itself you have to ask if it is a good way of spending the fare revenue which would have to rise to fund such a scheme.

I can see 100% why manning each station has never been tried, the cost of the tickets is high enough as it is.

Imagine standing on Pomona at 12midnight on a Tuesday, wonder how much revenue that member of staff will protect?

You have to weight up the economic case for and against measures to stop it. There are ways of cutting it but I don't think you can be reasoned with to much. One interesting thing is Stagecoach took on 12 more inspectors when they took over. If they can't afford more staff how come they did that? The other big thing is its estimated 15% of people don't buy a ticket. 15% of 18-20 Million journeys a year. That must warrant a number of the City Centre stations having some sort of barriers or part time manned stations to check the masses to cut that figure.

One thing which would have cut that number and increased usage was the manc style oyster card but I think that's dead now?

No one ever said that they cannot afford it.

The operator (with years of experience of running such schemes) deem the optimum amount of revenue protection staff, Stagecoach deemed 12 more than Serco, seems to me that the operators are making up their mind based on the figures that they see rather than the dream world of the posters on an internet forum.

Where does the 15% come from? I believe through conversations with people who work close to the PTE that the figure that is worked on (having spent a fair bit of money on complex surveys) is 3%.

Tell me, why do you think the PTE / Stagecoach have not come to the conclusion of having loads more staff / manning stations?

Prehaps they realise that catching a few dozen 12 years without tickets may appear to mean something to the average fare paying passenger, but given you cannot prosecute any minor for not paying the fare, the ticket inspectors that caught those kids have cost a fair bit of moneyto employ, yet have not protected a single penny, as such, the fare paying passengers ticket price has been raised to pay for them.

Maybe if we all paid £10 for a single ticket we would be able to afford the kind of revenue protection you desire, no one would manage to escape payment.

But what about manning important stations in the centre? Since the most valuable journeys that people don't pay for will be suburbs to town if you take the seven or eight central stops, and man them it probably wouldn't cost that much, and would improve the safety of the system late at night. I can see why they don't want to do it as it produce immediate costs with little or no benefit to GMPTE/Stagecoach, but there are other social concerns that aren't being taken into account.

100% is ridiculous, but man 10% and you might get 40% of the benefit? It's certainly worth exploring in future.

What, like today where they randomly man stations and catch everyone going through a different station?

Would you prefer the fare dodgers to know which stations to avoid?

By manning the central stations, the majority of fare dodging would disappear as it would be pointless.

It shouldn't be a question of how little extra money you save, it should be a question of do we want to travel alongside lowlife.

Public transport outside London is bad enough as it is without it becoming a playground for the unwashed.

Successful cities are the most liveable ones and the most liveable ones have a culture that frowns upon taking the piss.

Like the man said on that daft John Harris programme, where would you live if you could choose, Cambridge or Hull.

You are right.

Problem is, as was shown on 12th Dec, people do not like paying for this much improved quality of life that you talk about. Just as people did not want to pay for TIF, they will not see paying extra for Metrolink tickets as a good thing, even if the promise of fewer scum travelling was promised.

Oh, and from memory, Dane Road is the station that most fare dodgers board (where I live) and they travel towards Alty in the late evening / night time according to surveys.

Not sure how city centre stations will help.

Surely the focus that is given on this part of the network by mobile inspectors is more preferable?

What, like today where they randomly man stations and catch everyone going through a different station?

Would you prefer the fare dodgers to know which stations to avoid?

In the suburbs have a team touring about or rotating between key points of the network, whatever works best (as at the moment). Giving these staff the ability to sell tickets might be useful (in the instances where machines are malfunctioning/busy) and would make them and the system more popular.

Then have barriers (like the Istanbul light rail) and the minimum staffing at G-Mex, St Peters, Picc Gardens, Picc, Market Street, Shudehill and Victoria. On a journey to town its fairly hard to avoid any of those stations.

Since journeys to/from the city centre are the most expensive ones (and therefore if someone doesn't pay for these journeys they are costing the system the most money) and the costs of staffing just seven stations is relatively low you might get a large proportion of the benefits of all station barriers with a low proportion of the costs. I don't know that you would, but its possible. When you add in the social benefits and potential increased night time usage into a CRB then it might even be financially worthwhile.

Obviously it's a luxury and difficult to implement when the system is so strapped for cash, but I think it's something that is worth exploring.

Make them pay. The government knew that vote was going to be lost. The money was never there and they would have been extremely shocked to have won. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Public transport should not be a social service. If you can't afford it - walk.

Issac, presume you agree that the tube fares should stop getting the 4bn / year subsidy then?

20ponds per journey on the tube to scrap the subsidy and put enough police on it to get rid of the scum that hassle other passengers? Sounds fair to me.

In the suburbs have a team touring about or rotating between key points of the network, whatever works best (as at the moment). Giving these staff the ability to sell tickets might be useful (in the instances where machines are malfunctioning/busy) and would make them and the system more popular.

Then have barriers (like the Istanbul light rail) and the minimum staffing at G-Mex, St Peters, Picc Gardens, Picc, Market Street, Shudehill and Victoria. On a journey to town its fairly hard to avoid any of those stations.

Since journeys to/from the city centre are the most expensive ones (and therefore if someone doesn't pay for these journeys they are costing the system the most money) and the costs of staffing just seven stations is relatively low you might get a large proportion of the benefits of all station barriers with a low proportion of the costs. I don't know that you would, but its possible. When you add in the social benefits and potential increased night time usage into a CRB then it might even be financially worthwhile.

Obviously it's a luxury and difficult to implement when the system is so strapped for cash, but I think it's something that is worth exploring.

How many staff do you think it takes to man 2 platforms at 7 stations for 20odd hours a day?

Also, once a person has left the tram they cannot be asked to pay, the ofender could simply deny they made the journey. Who would have to catch them before the journey on in-journey.

Given you cannot isolate our central stations , Issacs model only works when one model of tram uses the platform) people wil just walk around any inspector.

Issac, presume you agree that the tube fares should stop getting the 4bn / year subsidy then?

20ponds per journey on the tube to scrap the subsidy and put enough police on it to get rid of the scum that hassle other passengers? Sounds fair to me.err, the tube gets a billion journeys a year. That's therefore £4 a journey more, making it, at most, a bit more pricey than NR from the edges (in the centre, it's a different matter).

Ur, increasing each journey by £4 would massively decrease passenger numbers.

Also, Isaac is suggesting draconian measures are worth it to get rid of the scum element from out transport network.

How much would it cost to put a member of the British Transport Police on every single carriage on the tube whenever the tube is operating?

I'm guessing the true cost per ticket would be much more than £20 if Isaac had his way.

No one ever said that they cannot afford it.

The operator (with years of experience of running such schemes) deem the optimum amount of revenue protection staff, Stagecoach deemed 12 more than Serco, seems to me that the operators are making up their mind based on the figures that they see rather than the dream world of the posters on an internet forum.

Where does the 15% come from? I believe through conversations with people who work close to the PTE that the figure that is worked on (having spent a fair bit of money on complex surveys) is 3%.

Tell me, why do you think the PTE / Stagecoach have not come to the conclusion of having loads more staff / manning stations?

Prehaps they realise that catching a few dozen 12 years without tickets may appear to mean something to the average fare paying passenger, but given you cannot prosecute any minor for not paying the fare, the ticket inspectors that caught those kids have cost a fair bit of moneyto employ, yet have not protected a single penny, as such, the fare paying passengers ticket price has been raised to pay for them.

Maybe if we all paid £10 for a single ticket we would be able to afford the kind of revenue protection you desire, no one would manage to escape payment.
Don't really understand why your getting all defensive and its not just 12 year olds.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1109994_tram_fines_to_soar_9fold

That figures comes from GTMPE. Watch the video with the scum bag in.

I don't know why GTMPE or Metrolink don't man certain stations and I also don't understand why the Central ones don't yet have roofs and ticket barriers. Maybe its because they underestimated the success of the system in the early 1990s and its likely to do with funding. Who knows? Fact is our system now and in future next few years will have areas which can be targeted. Its the same on the railways. Ticket barriers are going up at the busiest stations because Northern Rail are losing £Millions in revenues. If 15% is true the amount of money Metrolink are losing must be in the £millions in a year. I don't really get where this £10 is journey is coming from. The busy City Centre stations manned would help pay for them selfs and once the system has expanded the argument for ticket barriers in the centre will be stronger.

Issac, presume you agree that the tube fares should stop getting the 4bn / year subsidy then?

20ponds per journey on the tube to scrap the subsidy and put enough police on it to get rid of the scum that hassle other passengers? Sounds fair to me.

I don't think it would cost £20 per journey seeing as commuter trains into London charge that whilst the franchises pay for the privillage of carrying the commuters. I'd be sat in a golden seat at that price.

There's not a lot of lowlife on the tube, the electronic gates, metal detectors and sniffer dogs restrict them to the buses.

Andy, GMPTE are looking for a new chief exec, apply, serious, you know so much about how the system works and have clearly put so much though into it. Pays well too, about £100k / year as well if memory serves.

Remind me again how ticket barriers at say St Peters Sq people would not just walk along the track to avoid the barriers?

Oh, and you imagine that those not paying would pay if they had to and would simply not travel?

Very very very few tram systems in the world man their stations, there is incredibly good reason for this.

Maybe, just maybe, all those people that operate tram networks across the world have got it correct and you may, just maybe, have got it wrong???

Andy, GMPTE are looking for a new chief exec, apply, serious, you know so much about how the system works and have clearly put so much though into it. Pays well too, about £100k / year as well if memory serves.

Remind me again how ticket barriers at say St Peters Sq people would not just walk along the track to avoid the barriers?

Oh, and you imagine that those not paying would pay if they had to and would simply not travel?

Very very very few tram systems in the world man their stations, there is incredibly good reason for this.

Maybe, just maybe, all those people that operate tram networks across the world have got it correct and you may, just maybe, have got it wrong???
Metrolink I might just do that, seems if you were in the job you'd just accept that 15% getting away with it. I do not find that acceptable. I hope the new guy who ever he is has more ideas and techniques, than your idea of I GIVE UP!

You could have ticket barriers or some sort of checking system at City Centre stations, all it requires is thought and engineering.

This is the UK. ZaNULiebour 2009-stylee.

People cannot be trusted to use roundabouts properly, so they are replaced with traffic lights.

People cannot be trusted to purchase a train/trams ticket before travelling.

People cannot be trusted to vote for better public transport.

People cannot be trusted.

We have developed an entitlement culture in this country that has encouraged deception. If I don't mention this I can claim this etc. This has further created a childish society. Beating the system rather than going to work and keeping all you earn. We cannot be trusted as a society at the moment, we don'ttrust each other and we don't trust our politicians.

That trust and responsibility will only come about by being penalised when caught.

In Europe you buy a ticket and in many places you have to compost it in a machine, it's an act where you are not only validating your ticket but showing your fellow travellers that you have actually bought a ticket.

European public transport has a self policing culture which we ourselves do not have.

Andy, you really do live in a very simplistic world, in the real world hard decisions are made, nothing is perfect.
Have you considered how many people pass through a station like St Peters Sq every minute during the rush hour? Have you considered how long it takes an average person to traverse a ticket barrier, and as such how many barriers would be required and as such how big the area would need to be to fit in all these barriers!

You will soon realise that there is no space, this is one of the dozens of complications that the people who manage the system have to deal with whilst they are 'giving up'.

Andy, I am sure we would all love no one not to pay, but the simple fact that Metrolink operates just like the vast majority of international tram networks should tell you something very important - maybe the global tram operators have not given up - rather they are achieving the optimal balance of costs incurred with benefits achieve?

What I'd like to know is where does this magic figure of 15% come from? How do they know it's 15%? How?

I don't see how they could know.

Of course, had Picc-Vic got built, we wouldn't be having this argument, as all the city centre stations (and probably most suburban ones), would have been barriered.

Easiest solution is to make the City Zone free to everybody, as it is for local (GM Ticketing Area) rail passengers, and barrier the suburban stops, which would be 'easier' to convert, as they have smaller footfall. Future designs of newbuild section stops to take into account barriers/secure station status.

How do you barrier the Eccles line or with travel along that line, incuding to the city centre be free?

Plus, manning all the old style phase 1 stations 20hrs a day would be incredibly expensive, think how many staff would be required give we tend to only work 40hrs / week about 220days per year each.

Probably need more than one person in each station at all times as well!

Barriers (manned or automatic*) are a no-no, there is simply not space for all the UK HSE and DDA requirements. And what is to stop someone just jumping down into the track and onto the pavement once the tram leaves the station? You can't have enclosed stations as different types of vehicles will use the stops. And enclosed stations mean stringent fire regulations and the costs spiral out of control.

*Automatic barriers require manning in this country.

Exactly, a point I have beeen trying to make.

It seems to be being ignored that we have disabled people who travel in mini golf cart type cars on trams - we will require some seriously large bariers to let these people out and shit loads of taff to help them.
Given the volumes of passengers as busy stations half the city centre will be required for Metrolink barriers.

Exactly, a point I have beeen trying to make.

It seems to be being ignored that we have disabled people who travel in mini golf cart type cars on trams - we will require some seriously large bariers to let these people out and shit loads of taff to help them.
Given the volumes of passengers as busy stations half the city centre will be required for Metrolink barriers.

Very good point M€tr0l1nk - I 'm not going to add to this debate but have you got those referencies to the 3% figure for fare dodgers?

Suburban stations in Merseyside and the West Midlands are fully staffed (although not barriered), perhaps thats why people feel safer, and use the trains more, there?

I wasn't aware those big scooter type things were allowed on trams, I thought it was wheelchair/powered-wheelchair size only.

Just bring back Conductors! Some trams abroad have them sat in little booths on the tram, where you have to show your ticket as you pass?

I wasn't aware those big scooter type things were allowed on trams, I thought it was wheelchair/powered-wheelchair size only.


Yes they do take them on and I don't think it should be allowed. Three times now I have seen this and they block the doors on both sides because of the length of them not and not using the wheelchair bay hence causing great problems for the other passengers. One passenger missed her stop becasuse she could not get past before the doors closed and their was no apology from the user only "What am I supposed to do?" to which I said "Use the wheelchair space which is empty at the moment and is clearly marked on the platform. Perhaps you could get off at the next stop and move up the platform and use the space and show consideration for the other passengers?" Well the looks I got from the other passengers was a marvel. You would think I said something wrong and that wheelchair users are excused any kind of self responsibility. I always have been contraversial....lol

Very good point M€tr0l1nk - I 'm not going to add to this debate but have you got those referencies to the 3% figure for fare dodgers?

Verbal conversations with people on the ITA and the PTE when discussing the way the Stagecoach contract differs from Sercos.

link - we have also discussed oncductors before.

Once you have conductors you have no incentive whatsoever to buy a ticket before you board the tram.

As such, given the speed a conductor would have to seel tickets to the people on the tram (do the maths - 200 people in less than 20mins) you will realise that a lot more than 15% (if that is a true figure which I doubt) will never be asked to pay.

Travel on the Nottingham NET - many many people board, make small journeys and the conductor never gets close to asking most short journey makers for their fare.

Also, logistically, how could a conductor travel along a fully packed tram in the morning / evening / football rush? Carrying their machinery, plus dealing with cash in a very cramped space.

In reality the numbers not paying with a conductor would be astronomical.

link - we have also discussed oncductors before.

Once you have conductors you have no incentive whatsoever to buy a ticket before you board the tram.

As such, given the speed a conductor would have to seel tickets to the people on the tram (do the maths - 200 people in less than 20mins) you will realise that a lot more than 15% (if that is a true figure which I doubt) will never be asked to pay.

Travel on the Nottingham NET - many many people board, make small journeys and the conductor never gets close to asking most short journey makers for their fare.

Also, logistically, how could a conductor travel along a fully packed tram in the morning / evening / football rush? Carrying their machinery, plus dealing with cash in a very cramped space.

In reality the numbers not paying with a conductor would be astronomical.
If your so clever and clued up what is your answer to the problem? 3% or 15%, what would you put in place to cut the number of people traveling without a ticket?

I would let the people with the most knowledge and the most knowledge of the situation to come up with a plan.

Maybe those who have worked on tram systems for a lot longer than either of us, have a dam site more information and have more to gain than either of us by reducing the number of fare dodgers have already delivered the optimal setup?

After all, why do you imagine it is possible to get higher than say 85% fare compliance without spending vast sums of money?

Personally I trust those in charge have developed a much better scheme than anyone on here could get close to.

Can you really not see that all the outlandish plans simply would not work on Metrolink, and what we have may well be the best possible?