Can a Michigan forumer answer this question for me:

I know that Michigan's University Research Corridor consists of a partnership between three universities: U-M, MSU, and WSU. I also realize that other universities in state (WMU, in particular) resent the divison of status such ap roject implies with three elite schools and the other Michigan publics being margainalized.

And I realize that those three institutions have some difference from the others in scope with each having both med and law schools.

But my question is this: do Michiganders really see a "three flagship" set up and do they really see WSU as part of the elite....or does CW state that U-M and MSU alone are the real flagship and the true complete and nationally respected major universities in state? In mean, in Indiana, for example, no state school is going to be put in the IU/Purdue category. Isn't that somewhat true of U-M/MSU for Michigan?

(this is not meant as a knock against Wayne. I am an UIC grad and think it is a great institution, but I recognize that in Illinois, UIUC is the dominant school as UW-Madison is in Wisc and as the two each in places like Ind and Mich are)

It depends on what you want to classify. MSU/UM are much, much harder to get into than WSU. Academically, MSU/UM have better programs (many natioanlly ranked) while WSU's programs are respectable, but on a regional level. Both have major sports programs while WSU's is basically on par with a high school program. Many people who don't live in the Detroit area have never heard of WSU, while most people in the nation know MSU/UM. So from an overall perspective MSU/UM are definitely on a higher tier than WSU.

WSU started out as more of a commuter school often for adults seeking further education in their field of work. That's part of the reason why the school's sports program is virtually non-existant. It's only been in the last 10 or so years that the school has started building student housing. Granted, a lot of students already lived in apartments adjacent to the campus. It has also attracted students from all of the world and easily has one of the most diverse student bodies of any major university.

As far as academia goes, WSU does offer a wide range of programs, but its most prominent schools are the Medical School and the School of Engineering. That's part of the reason why WSU is a part of the University Research corridor. It has one of the largest research programs in the nation for a University of its size on par with both MSU and UM. Its connection to the auto industry as well as other emerging high tech fields makes it a perfect candidate for such a corridor.

It depends on what you want to classify. MSU/UM are much, much harder to get into than WSU. Academically, MSU/UM have better programs (many natioanlly ranked) while WSU's programs are respectable, but on a regional level. Both have major sports programs while WSU's is basically on par with a high school program. Many people who don't live in the Detroit area have never heard of WSU, while most people in the nation know MSU/UM. So from an overall perspective MSU/UM are definitely on a higher tier than WSU.

WSU started out as more of a commuter school often for adults seeking further education in their field of work. That's part of the reason why the school's sports program is virtually non-existant. It's only been in the last 10 or so years that the school has started building student housing. Granted, a lot of students already lived in apartments adjacent to the campus. It has also attracted students from all of the world and easily has one of the most diverse student bodies of any major university.

As far as academia goes, WSU does offer a wide range of programs, but its most prominent schools are the Medical School and the School of Engineering. That's part of the reason why WSU is a part of the University Research corridor. It has one of the largest research programs in the nation for a University of its size on par with both MSU and UM. Its connection to the auto industry as well as other emerging high tech fields makes it a perfect candidate for such a corridor.

doesn't WSU have a regional mission for Detroit (and vicinity) that contrasts with MSU and U-M's state wide mission? And isn't it true that those two are the only ones that have a state wide mission in a totally cross sectional curricula among Michigan's pubic u's?

I mean, aren't U-M and MSU fundamentally different from WSU, EMU, CMU, WMU, MT, NMU, Oakland, etc?

^^hudkina, i think some of the issues come up with Michigan because of your state's rather unusual structure for its institutions of higher learning. Due to pressure that came from U-M for well over a hundred years, autonomy from the state and free will have been more part of the Michigan model than in most other states. And Michigan's universities are less affected by an oversight system and are also unique in that they are no clustered. In fact, if I am not mistaken, I believe only U-M, UMD, and UMF are under one board of trustees. Each of the other institutions have their own.

Michigan's public schools are more subject to fratricide and leveling the playing field than what you have in most states. There was an interesting article, a case study, a few years back that relates to this; perhaps you have read it. You get turf battles in Michigan, like WMU offering classes in Lansing, of all places...and perhaps too much duplication of offerings.

U-M fought for years to maintain its status vs. MSU, in both that school's university status and its desire to join the Big Ten. I think it was difficult for U-M to see the state develop two flagships.

Michigan, to me, seems 180° removed from California's strict structure for both the UC's and the CSU's. Michigan comes across more as a free for all among competing institutions.

I'd say the one place where hierarchy does seem to hold in Michigan in comparison to neighoring Ohio is the status of the flagship institutions. U-M and MSU hold their own and U-M is the oldest institution in the state. Ohio's one flagship, OSU, was a land grant instiution, a late bloomer, and perhaps more subject to having to prove itself than any other midwestern flagship univ who don't have to contend to the likes of Miami, Cincinnati, Ohio, and other such institutions.

To answer your question, "do Michiganders really see a three-flagship setup to the universities in the state", the short answer is no. It's a duo-flagship, MSU and UofM. The reality, however, is what you describe by adding Wayne State as the 3rd primary research institution in the state.

You are also correct, WSU has an urban mission that is specific to Detroit and its surroundings. In fact, as hudkina mentioned the building of resident housing, a lot of "urban people" who attend WSU have gotten quite upset with the university going this route because they argue that the more housing and more students living on or near campus, takes the focus of Wayne's urban mission away from them and creates more of "college town" atmosphere that Ann Arbor and E. Lansing have.

The biggest outcry came in a recent slash of programs. At the center of the cuts was CULMA or College of Urban Labor and Metropolitan Affairs, which would have been the college that my degree would have been designated. Instead, my urban planning degree came from the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences. Also, there was a lot of concern for the Center for Urban Studies being cut. I think there's been a downsizing in funding, but it is still there.
http://www.cus.wayne.edu/

Also, having attended MSU, I can't agree that that university is difficult to get into. Your average well-performing student can get into MSU, but I do think that MSU's level of prestege in the classrooms may have an edge over Wayne. Although, I've enjoyed Wayne more for my field and feel I had a better education there than at MSU. It's because of that experience, and living adjacent to the campus community, that I truely recognize Wayne's role in the state of MI as being one of the 3 research universities that lead over the others...in research specifically, not necessarily in overall performance.

Wayne does have an image problem, simply because it is in Detroit. It is a local school more than a state, regional, or national school. There are a lot of international students, but outside of the accademics, they find it difficult here due to Detroit's lack of public infrastructure and cohesive city environment. That's where the catch 22 comes in, and really speaks to Wayne's current transition from a quiet school into its rightful place as #3. The catch 22 involves its urban mission and the students that are most affected by that and the international students who need more from their campus community. How do you make that balance to serve both while insuring the bottom line, the value of the education being invested in?...

In fact, as hudkina mentioned the building of resident housing, a lot of "urban people" who attend WSU have gotten quite upset with the university going this route because they argue that the more housing and more students living on or near campus, takes the focus of Wayne's urban mission away from them and creates more of "college town" atmosphere that Ann Arbor and E. Lansing have.

my sense is that it does more than create that college town atmosphere (although it can do that and that can be a plus). the danger that a urban university can face is its limiting nature. When you open up dorms and encourage out-of-city (out-of-area) students, you diversify and become more cross sectional, something that is an inherent positive for any university.

The urban mission to which you speak has definite merit and should be encouraged, but IMHO, not at the expense of a residential component that will tend to lift the entire institution. I would say that has been working very well for UIC for a number of years now.

WMU is getting shafted with the "research corridor". It's got the same Carnegie research classification as UM, MSU and WSU. The lack of a medical and law school really hurt it from being the #3 school in the state.

And, no, I don't think most people see WSU as part of the elite schools in Michigan. I think the general public sees it as a mostly commuter school, and would be more inclined to pick WMU, CMU, EMU or OU as the #3 school.


edsg25 said:
doesn't WSU have a regional mission for Detroit (and vicinity) that contrasts with MSU and U-M's state wide mission? And isn't it true that those two are the only ones that have a state wide mission in a totally cross sectional curricula among Michigan's pubic u's?

I mean, aren't U-M and MSU fundamentally different from WSU, EMU, CMU, WMU, MT, NMU, Oakland, etc?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. I can only speak for WMU, but it draws students from every corner of the state, and has pretty much a FULL curriculum (besides Medical/Law schools). Even UM-Ann Arbor has holes in it's curriculum (Physical therapy among probable others).

I think the general public sees it as a mostly commuter school, and would be more inclined to pick WMU, CMU, EMU or OU as the #3 school.
OU?

And Western is not getting the shaft. It is still getting its apportioned funding that it always received. Just like all the other colleges and universities in the state. The state is just proposing that the 3 research institutions get more funding from new resources.

From the Research Corridor Website: The three research universities bring in 95 percent of all external academic R&D dollars that come into the State, and together expend well over $1.3 billion in research activity. The three bring in another $750 million in federal financial aid to students.

The urban mission to which you speak has definite merit and should be encouraged, but IMHO, not at the expense of a residential component that will tend to lift the entire institution. I would say that has been working very well for UIC for a number of years now.
But that's not the way it is seen here. It's the opposite actually. The university is making the balance, but not without a profound criticism from the student body and the local community. These opponents, are specifically, the "urban" population that are typically older, already working a job, more likely low-to-middle wage, who decided to go back to school to obtain a degree or an advanced degree. They argue that the more WSU invests in the college-town identity, the more that will take away from its urban mission, making it more expensive for both student residents (of campus) and student who are already employed.

I'm on your side on this, edsg, but you really have to understand that once upon a time, Wayne University served the community in which it stood. Over time as Detroiters emptied out of their city and the university became Wayne State, the mission changed to serve those who stayed in Detroit...and of course beyond. In a way, these urban students claim the university in its mission over the years as their own as a resource that caters to them since everyone else willingly chose to leave. It's almost like gentrification in a sense.

I of course, believe we can have both. And Wayne will still continue to grow at a fast pace and even compete with UofM and MSU. It has a long way to go, but from my experiences, people tend to short-change WSU. And though it's image is still "Detroit" that image only began to change in 2000, with the very first opening of undergraduate dorms...and all that did was put the first year of students on campus for the first time ever. 7 years later, more undergrad/grad housing has been built, but 7 years is just a teeny tinkle in the overall effects of what housing means for an institution of this size. And I also must add that being here for 4 of those 7 years, I have noticed the slow, yet positive change, in which we're still in the midst of.

http://www.urcmich.org/

OU?

And Western is not getting the shaft. It is still getting its apportioned funding that it always received. Just like all the other colleges and universities in the state. The state is just proposing that the 3 research institutions get more funding from new resources.

From the Research Corridor Website: The three research universities bring in 95 percent of all external academic R&D dollars that come into the State, and together expend well over $1.3 billion in research activity. The three bring in another $750 million in federal financial aid to students.


But that's not the way it is seen here. It's the opposite actually. The university is making the balance, but not without a profound criticism from the student body and the local community. These opponents, are specifically, the "urban" population that are typically older, already working a job, more likely low-to-middle wage, who decided to go back to school to obtain a degree or an advanced degree. They argue that the more WSU invests in the college-town identity, the more that will take away from its urban mission, making it more expensive for both student residents (of campus) and student who are already employed.

I'm on your side on this, edsg, but you really have to understand that once upon a time, Wayne University served the community in which it stood. Over time as Detroiters emptied out of their city and the university became Wayne State, the mission changed to serve those who stayed in Detroit...and of course beyond. In a way, these urban students claim the university in its mission over the years as their own as a resource that caters to them since everyone else willingly chose to leave. It's almost like gentrification in a sense.

I of course, believe we can have both. And Wayne will still continue to grow at a fast pace and even compete with UofM and MSU. It has a long way to go, but from my experiences, people tend to short-change WSU. And though it's image is still "Detroit" that image only began to change in 2000, with the very first opening of undergraduate dorms...and all that did was put the first year of students on campus for the first time ever. 7 years later, more undergrad/grad housing has been built, but 7 years is just a teeny tinkle in the overall effects of what housing means for an institution of this size. And I also must add that being here for 4 of those 7 years, I have noticed the slow, yet positive change, in which we're still in the midst of.

http://www.urcmich.org/

i'm sure with the continuing revival in Detroit, good things will happen to Wayne on both the urban mission and expanding the base fronts.

The way university research budgets are weighted, it should be no surprise that WSU should be considered a research university along with UM/MSU. Engineering and medical schools bring in far, far more in public and private research funds than just about any other field. Without those two schools, WSU would not be considered a research university by almost any definition.


I also think the inclusion of WSU is a tactic to reinvigorate Detroit. Business and political leaders are pressing universities hard to become economic development and "innovation" engines. Not exactly what a university is supposed to do.

I got into both WSU and MSU which means, that their both easy to get into. Wanye state is seen as a better school than oakland but your not good enough to get into Michigan. MSU is a party school that is better than central but still party.

MSU isn't extremely hard to get into, but you have to have a decent SAT/ACT score and GPA. WSU basically looks at whether or not you graduated high school and can speak english...;)

MSU isn't extremely hard to get into, but you have to have a decent SAT/ACT score and GPA. WSU basically looks at whether or not you graduated high school and can speak english...;)

speaking English is a requirement somewhere in the US today? Amazing.

Besides, doesn't that elimate a lot of people across the Detroit River who want to attend WSU but only speak Canadian?

A lot of people who are ESL have to take an english proficiency exam. If they do not pass they have to take language classes.

MSU isn't extremely hard to get into, but you have to have a decent SAT/ACT score and GPA. WSU basically looks at whether or not you graduated high school and can speak english...;)

I have a 30 ACT, my SAT is like in the top 98%. But my GPA is a 3.0 which has gone up a lot this year becuase i have senior classes.

But i also got into UDM, central, some smaller catholic schools. But im planning on going to Arizona State, already accepted just need to figure out a way to pay for it.

Waiting on acceptance letters from Chicago and Fordham.

The ease with which one can enter an undergraduate program at a particular university has little to do with whether it is a "research" university. Funded research is almost always done by professors and graduate students. Undergraduates help pay the bills, but have almost nothing to do with research. Undergraduate study these days is preparatory either for work, or for further study at the graduate level, where students are taught to be researchers.

The way university research budgets are weighted, it should be no surprise that WSU should be considered a research university along with UM/MSU. Engineering and medical schools bring in far, far more in public and private research funds than just about any other field. Without those two schools, WSU would not be considered a research university by almost any definition.


I also think the inclusion of WSU is a tactic to reinvigorate Detroit. Business and political leaders are pressing universities hard to become economic development and "innovation" engines. Not exactly what a university is supposed to do.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Wayne State is not the university it is today because of Detroit (or UofM or MSU for that matter). It is the university it is today because of Wayne State. And I don't know how you've come to imply that business and political leaders have decided Wayne State's purpose is to revitalize the community. Again, not true. The local leadership here recognizes the university's role in the adjacent community, but it doesn't put that before the education it offers. It would be foolish not to recognize the institutions role in the community, just the same as it would be to recognize the role that Bank of America plays in Charlotte or Proctor and Gamble play in Cincinnati.

speaking English is a requirement somewhere in the US today? Amazing.

Besides, doesn't that elimate a lot of people across the Detroit River who want to attend WSU but only speak Canadian?
This raises another good point. Essex County residents (Windsor, ON) receive in-state tuition at Wayne State.