Urgh, not necessarily.

Firstly, there didn't used to be a "street" in the sense that we now know it. The whole area formed a massive, ill-defined open space taking in the station, St Georges Hall and other buildings, and being utilised by pedestrians and various types of vehicle. Maybe it was intended that the area in front of the station would continue as an ill-defined realm, rather than the strict roads/paths and so on we know today. Also, The station wasn't set back prior to the hotel being built - correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't the creation of the hotel help to define what became the "street" and gave an impression of the station being set back?

Second, it is illogical to assume that the station frontage was established so that buildings could be developed in front of it. Maybe the station came out so far because that was all its developers could afford to purchase, land-wise. Maybe they intended for it to have an open space in front, to allow for pedestrian circulation. It is like saying sqaures shouldn't exist, as the spaces in front of buildings are "clearly" intended to be in-filled.

It is all speculative, but I don't see that it is a fact that buildings were destined to cover up the front of the station. Far from it.

...and let's face it who really cares about what was or wasn't intended (possibly) when you have a handsome facade just waiting to be discovered and enjoyed by the city?

Urgh, not necessarily.

Firstly, there didn't used to be a "street" in the sense that we now know it. The whole area formed a massive, ill-defined open space taking in the station, St Georges Hall and other buildings, and being utilised by pedestrians and various types of vehicle. Maybe it was intended that the area in front of the station would continue as an ill-defined realm, rather than the strict roads/paths and so on we know today. Also, The station wasn't set back prior to the hotel being built - correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't the creation of the hotel help to define what became the "street" and gave an impression of the station being set back?

Second, it is illogical to assume that the station frontage was established so that buildings could be developed in front of it. Maybe the station came out so far because that was all its developers could afford to purchase, land-wise. Maybe they intended for it to have an open space in front, to allow for pedestrian circulation. It is like saying sqaures shouldn't exist, as the spaces in front of buildings are "clearly" intended to be in-filled.

It is all speculative, but I don't see that it is a fact that buildings were destined to cover up the front of the station. Far from it.

I've looked at the Liverpool map for 1837 which was drawn when the northern train shed was in use but the southern one not yet constructed and that does show a block of buildings between Gloucester Street (site of the Elephant Arch) and Skelhorne Street, which might be the ones that survived until the 1960s.

As you say, it is all speculative (without in-depth research) but what is undeniable is that for most, if not all, of its life, Lime Street station has had buildings in front of both of its train sheds. The same was true of Central Station which had a large hotel building in front.

The important question is how much do we gain by removing all the buildings in front of the station?

I can't see that we gain that much. As I pointed out with my photograph of the Elephant Arch entrance, the restriction is not with the width of steps but with the number of entrances to the station and it is one of the bizarre features of the present proposal that although a large number of steps and ramps are added, there are no additional entrances to the station building.

Certainly disabled access is improved (including to the underground station) but most of the space is given over to quite unnecessary steps and seating areas (nine tiers of seats to look at St Johns Precinct - should we book in advance?).

Perhaps not. But by virtue of it being open space (immaterial of it having some easily removed steps on it) that is effectively what it will be.

If it is a failure - and I'm still not convinced it will be - then even if we have to wait a while for alternative plans to be put forward, at the very least, a saving grace if you will, we will have a presentable front door to our city while alternative plans are worked up.

I do see where you're coming from, but the proposed scheme allows for an alternative option (that of open space) to be considered, while not preventing any future construction on the site should it not work. As such is this not the best way forward?

Probably not as easy as you think Chris. Steps would probably not take much to remove but getting to the point where they were officially acknowledged as a bad decision would take a very long time indeed.

There is also the problem of setting a precedent.

As I was discussing with Tim, we can never know for sure one way or another whether the stone arches in front of the station were ever intended to form part of an exposed frontage. However, by completely exposing them, we face the wrath of the heritage lobby if we were ever to come up with a scheme that was to cover them up again.

Having said that, I think the main problems with this area will arise at the southern end with its terraces of seating and its steps leading nowhere.

they become objects of reverence to our present heritage obsessed times.

..or maybe these older objects start to coincide with our notion of taste? Evolving taste, even for some older stuff over some newer stuff, is part of being what it is to be contemporary too y'know. It's nothing to feel ourselves a failure about.

One thing I'd like to remind you about, and I think you probably think this too, is that it's a real shame, and to the detriment of Lime St, that from the Crown pub to Commutation Row, there's a complete absence of street-level retail activity, of "destinations", of hustle and bustle, animation.

I would have kept the Victorian shops in front of the station in a flash but they're history, but unlike you, I don't think the Seifert concourse was the answer. I believe the real answer would have been the adjacent hotel amd regret very much the wholesale surrender of that great building to the JMU.

This is a terrible travesty, given the fantastic effect which would accrue where the ground floor of that great building brought back into being an animated part of a great city by being an tea room, a restaurant, a nexus of local specialist, independent food maker/retailers.
This is the real blunder about Lime St, the real own goal.

..or maybe these older objects start to coincide with our notion of taste? Evolving taste, even for some older stuff over some newer stuff, is part of being what it is to be contemporary too y'know. It's nothing to feel ourselves a failure about.

One thing I'd like to remind you about, and I think you probably think this too, is that it's a real shame, and to the detriment of Lime St, that from the Crown pub to Commutation Row, there's a complete absence of street-level retail activity, of "destinations", of hustle and bustle, animation.

I would have kept the Victorian shops in front of the station in a flash but they're history, but unlike you, I don't think the Seifert concourse was the answer. I believe the real answer, the real waste of Lime St lies in the wanton waste of giving JMU the entire adjoining hotel block.

This is a terrible waste, given what fantastic effect which would accrue where the ground floor of that great building brought back into being an animated part of a great city by being an tea room, a restaurant, a nexus of local specialist, independent food maker/retailers.
This is the real waste, the real own goal.

at the time converting the old hotel for LJMU student halls was seen as a means of stopping the rot. I'm not sure if LJMU actually own the building, or are just leasing it, but at least is it being maintained now.

http://www.owenellis.co.uk/html/projects/project_full.php?id=82

at the time converting the old hotel for LJMU student halls was seen as a means of stopping the rot. I'm not sure if LJMU actually own the building, or are just leasing it, but at least is it being maintained now.

http://www.owenellis.co.uk/html/projects/project_full.php?id=82

Well yes, and how far we slipped for that to have ever been the choice for this building. Quite staggering really.

(Oh, and trust someone to quote the unedited version of my post where I use the word "waste" about 6 times in two sentences like some retard.:moods:)

..
One thing I'd like to remind you about, and I think you probably think this too, is that it's a real shame, and to the detriment of Lime St, that from the Crown pub to Commutation Row, there's a complete absence of street-level retail activity, of "destinations", of hustle and bustle, animation.

I would have kept the Victorian shops in front of the station in a flash but they're history, but unlike you, I don't think the Seifert concourse was the answer. I believe the real answer would have been the adjacent hotel amd regret very much the wholesale surrender of that great building to the JMU.



I think it is a great shame for both sides of Lime Street and is really the crux of my objection to this public realm idea.

Certainly better use could be made of the North Western Hotel and I understand that there will be some ground floor retail units going in there however, we have an opportunity now to put right some of these mistakes.

I'm not concerned about keeping the present concourse of shops but I would like to see the principle of maintaining an active street front (as well as exploiting the magnificent view of the city from the upper level) to be retained in the redevelopment of the site. That would also preserve the street line of Lime Street.

The arches are of very minor importance I believe. I am not advocating they be removed but I can't see that they form an essential part of the station frontage. Lime Street is essentially a wrought iron and glass train shed and it is the graceful sweep of the train shed arch that is the main element of the frontage.

Originally Posted by Villiers Terrace ...
One thing I'd like to remind you about, and I think you probably think this too, is that it's a real shame, and to the detriment of Lime St, that from the Crown pub to Commutation Row, there's a complete absence of street-level retail activity, of "destinations", of hustle and bustle, animation. I think it is a great shame for both sides of Lime Street and ...
Lime Street is essentially a wrought iron and glass train shed and it is the graceful sweep of the train shed arch that is the main element of the frontage.
Some more iron and glass would have been nice.

They should show the renders in the rain and without people, because that is how it will be - largely devoid of people. Now imagine if there were a vintage Meccano and Dublo museum, and a Hattons store there. Kids and their dads would come on the train from all over.

The arches are of very minor importance I believe. I am not advocating they be removed but I can't see that they form an essential part of the station frontage. Lime Street is essentially a wrought iron and glass train shed and it is the graceful sweep of the train shed arch that is the main element of the frontage.

Martin, this is on the Port Cities site , taken from Liverpool Records Office....

Lime Street Station, 1948............

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc242/woody43/limestreetstation1948-1.jpg

Lime Street Station, 1908........

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc242/woody43/limeststation1908-1.jpg

The objective of the current proposals is to establish a strong "gateway" to Liverpool. Opening up the Lime Street frontage, and establishing (for the short term at least) a good quality public space in front of it, will create an identifiable "gateway". This follows the examples of various other railway gateways in the UK and Europe. Some of the greatest European stations are destinations in their own right; they aren't stuffed behind other (in this case, failing and miserable) buildings.

As Chris explained above, if the proposed open space doesn't work out, then it can be complemented by a new building in the future - one that is commercially viable. It's a matter of taste I suppose, but I personally would like to see the station frontage fully opened up. I think it is an aesthetically pleasing structure and I would like to see more of it. I like the 'canopy' and I like the stone arches.

I would also like to be able to sit out in front of it as I wait for the train. Open space comes at a premium in our city centres, and if St Johns is eventually dealt with, then this could become a magnificent space for the enjoyment of all.

Although some have claimed it is 'heritage-obsession' to want to open up the station frontage.... doesn't it smack of 'heritage-obesession' to say that there should be buildings in front of the station, just because this was previously the case?

I agree with all of what you've just said Tim, but the argument for keeping Concourse House is not that we shouldn't create an open, pleasant public space in front of Lime Street, that is going to happen with the demolition of the shops, the argument is that in paving over the space where Concourse House stood we won't actually be gaining very much, ie the public realm isn't going to be massively enhanced with the addition of a few more sqaure feet of paving in an already large and expansive area, but we will potentially loose an otherwise useable asset in a crucial area of the city.

Think of impressive 'gateways' to other major cities, most of them are fronted by, or framed by iconic tall structures... with a suitable reclad Concourse House could provide such a frame for the Limestreet Gateway, just as the original tower would have done.

Martin, this is on the Port Cities site , taken from Liverpool Records Office....

Lime Street Station, 1948............

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc242/woody43/limestreetstation1948-1.jpg

Lime Street Station, 1908........

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc242/woody43/limeststation1908-1.jpg

Thanks for posting that Woody. I may be wrong but when you look at the types of buildings that used to be there with their different sizes and architectural styles, it seems clear to me that these predate the station, in which case, the stone arches would have originally been built to face onto the back walls of these buildings.

I find it more of a mystery why those arches were built. Perhaps, as people on this thread have suggested, they were built to form a front elevation of the station when the shops were cleared. However, I suspect that they were intended to open onto a building that was never constructed, which may have complemented the North Western Hotel. Might be interesting to do some research into that one day.

The objective of the current proposals is to establish a strong "gateway" to Liverpool. Opening up the Lime Street frontage, and establishing (for the short term at least) a good quality public space in front of it, will create an identifiable "gateway". This follows the examples of various other railway gateways in the UK and Europe. Some of the greatest European stations are destinations in their own right; they aren't stuffed behind other (in this case, failing and miserable) buildings.

Tim,

I don't object to what you are saying in principle (although, I would remind you that as the following photograph clearly shows, the station is not 'stuffed behind' Concourse House):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/Lime%20Street%20Station/080503-2.jpg

What announces to the world that this is a station is the sweeping end screen of the train shed. The arches beneath the glazed screen do not - they are a strange out of scale feature without any railway identity, which I think are being misinterpreted as the original grand facade of the station. I believe that the impact of Lime Street would be far stronger if the arches had been eliminated and the glazed screen taken straight down to ground level.

The problem with the present frontage of the station (with the shops removed) is that it lacks that classical symmetry that the Romanesque arches suggest that it should have. If we were redesigning it, would we not put the Elephant Arch in the middle of the end screen with a large, wide flight of steps in front and the arches either side of that entrance?

The new public realm scheme with its bizarre arrangement of steps, which appear to be leading anywhere but into the station just confuses the design further.

Far from wanting to see Lime Street concealed, I really would love it to become a destination in its own right. That is why I envisage a large glazed concourse in front of the station, which would link the station to the city and be a major attraction in its own right, both externally and internally.

In Britain, we don't have that culture of high quality station restaurants, which is a feature of the Continent but, maybe, in Liverpool we could alter that.

As Chris explained above, if the proposed open space doesn't work out, then it can be complemented by a new building in the future - one that is commercially viable. It's a matter of taste I suppose, but I personally would like to see the station frontage fully opened up. I think it is an aesthetically pleasing structure and I would like to see more of it. I like the 'canopy' and I like the stone arches.

I would also like to be able to sit out in front of it as I wait for the train. Open space comes at a premium in our city centres, and if St Johns is eventually dealt with, then this could become a magnificent space for the enjoyment of all.

The problem with Chris's idea, that I pointed out yesterday, is that it will take a very long time before sufficient momentum can be built up to make another change to the station frontage and, in the meantime, the precedent will be set that no buildings should be built in front of the station (and I am sure that will extend to the Concourse House site), so anyone proposing any new building will have a mountain to climb.

The point I have made all along is that people who wish to sit in front of the station would be far better served by an extension of the concourse than by a bank of seats quite remote from the station. I know that Liverpolitan said that freedom from station announcements would be a great attraction to him but I think that for most people, that would be a major disadvantage, especially if they were waiting for a delayed train.

On a day like we have had today, sitting on seats outside the station would not be that unpleasant but let us not forget that Liverpool occasionally experiences overcast skies, wind, rain and freezing temperatures - circumstances in which only the mildly (or very) eccentric are going to sit outside.

By extending the concourse over the existing (or rebuilt) shops, a partially enclosed space could be created that would be warm, regularly cleaned and secure and, in which you could have something to eat and drink while taking in a magnificent view of the city. On a day like today, you could make use of an open terrace section.

Am I being weird for suggesting this? I'm getting worried.:crazy:

Although some have claimed it is 'heritage-obsession' to want to open up the station frontage.... doesn't it smack of 'heritage-obesession' to say that there should be buildings in front of the station, just because this was previously the case?

Probably yes. But that is turning the argument on its head. I for one have never said that there should be buildings in front of the station just because there were ones there in the past. Rather that there are advantages in having buildings in front of the station - as there were in the past. If the frontage of Lime Street Station is of such architectural value that nothing should ever be built in front of it, it does beg the question why it has taken well over a century to appreciate that.

In a way though, I am a heritage obsessive, because I believe that what is being proposed here runs against the spirit of a great commercial city that once showed itself off to the world and which now believes that some nice paving and a few trees is all that is needed.

Am I being weird for suggesting this? I'm getting worried.


No you are not, i agree with you and said so in a previous post. If they wan't to keep the stone arches, then move them forward a decent amount, create resteraunt space behind with a roof terrace for viewing purposes, and then "glaze/door space" the area in the main iron arch left by the removed stone arches.

The problem with Chris's idea, that I pointed out yesterday, is that it will take a very long time before sufficient momentum can be built up to make another change to the station frontage

Although Martin, while we are waiting for that momentum, at least we will have a plesant, presentable, if a little under-used entrance to the city. Indeed, if the currently proposed scheme has really mis-read the needs and potential of the site that badly, I don't know if we will be waiting that long - particularly if the money markets turn, and a tower becomes financially viable again.

in the meantime, the precedent will be set that no buildings should be built in front of the station (and I am sure that will extend to the Concourse House site), so anyone proposing any new building will have a mountain to climb.

To be honest, I think the precedent has already been set for having nothing immediately in front of the station. Whether it was the original intention at the point of construction or not, people like being able to see the gable end, and the stone arches are a pleasant feature too. As such, even before a tool has been lifted, I think the potential for building directly in front of the station has already gone.

As regards to any precedent for not building on the Concourse site, I think it's far to early to call this one. I think any precedent will be directly related to how people feel about the public realm once completed. If people feel the steps work, then yes, there may be a waryness of any proposed structure on the site of Concourse in the future. (Of course that wouldn't in itself rule out any construction). On the other hand, if people feel the steps have created a barren, wind-swept area, that is viewed with indifference or worse, then you may well find that people are supportive of any forthcoming plans to build on the site of Concourse.

By extending the concourse over the existing (or rebuilt) shops, a partially enclosed space could be created that would be warm, regularly cleaned and secure and, in which you could have something to eat and drink while taking in a magnificent view of the city. On a day like today, you could make use of an open terrace section.

Am I being weird for suggesting this? I'm getting worried.

Not weird at all Martin. But I personally feel any cafe building should be sited adjacent to the sub-station along the Skelhorne Street elevation. Indeed ages ago in this thread I suggested a Kings Dock style pavillion would be suited to this site. This would afford the views the site offers from a sheltered indoor position, but whilst still allowing outdoor eating (weather permitting) by having slightly fewer steps around the pavillion, but more importantly allowing a much grander entrance through the use of public realm and improved views of the station as proposed. Perhaps this compromise would be a better way forward for the site?

Not weird at all Martin. But I personally feel any cafe building should be sited adjacent to the sub-station along the Skelhorne Street elevation. Indeed ages ago in this thread I suggested a Kings Dock style pavillion would be suited to this site. This would afford the views the site offers from a sheltered indoor position, but whilst still allowing outdoor eating (weather permitting) by having slightly fewer steps around the pavillion, but more importantly allowing a much grander entrance through the use of public realm and improved views of the station as proposed. Perhaps this compromise would be a better way forward for the site?

I certainly believe that the Concourse House site should be used for a building of some sort and that, therefore, no public realm should be constructed there. Having a restaurant or cafe would be a good idea provided it formed an easily accessible extension of the station concourse but it would be a shame to ignore the far better views that could be obtained from a building right in front of the train shed. Who, after all wants a panoramic view of St John's Precinct?

Anyway, my psychiatrist has recommended I take some leave away from stations and steps as a cure for my binge posting on this thread. So I'm off to North Wales for a few days. I'll continue this rant next week maybe.

Anyway, my psychiatrist has recommended I take some leave away from stations and steps as a cure for my binge posting on this thread. So I'm off to North Wales for a few days. I'll continue this rant next week maybe.

Well you've certainly got the weather for it. Have fun. :)

Well you've certainly got the weather for it. Have fun. :)

Thanks.:)

For comparison - steps adding to the street life in New York:

Pics by RFC Graphics
http://www.pbase.com/rfcd100/image/79850112/original.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/rfcd100/image/79707890/original.jpg

Nice photos, but I'm not sure anyone needs convincing that the general plans for the public realm including steps and seating for this area aren't a good idea. The question is do we need to create even more space and steps in addition to all the space which will be created by the demoilition of the shops, and at the loss of a substantial city centre tower?

Notice the way that St Georges Hall-esque building is surrounded by much taller buildings? You wouldn't get that here.

Notice the way that St Georges Hall-esque building is surrounded by much taller buildings? You wouldn't get that here.

I think it's the corner of Wall Street and Broad Street in New York.

Similarities between the New York Stock Exchange Building on Broad Street (the one with the big American flag) and Water Street in Liverpool.

There are steps and there are steps. The area is pretty dead, despite the station... the steps will not be sat upon, as if there was any potential for sun bathers etc to do so then they would already be on the steps of St George's Hall or the old steps (which I love) to the museum!

The reason why the area is dead? Because they keep on stripping out and killing all the commerce! What does this scheme do? That's right, it kills off even more, it replaces buildings with 'open space' maiking it impossible for commerce or culture to ever gain a foothold again... what a city!:ohno:

Those New York photographs do reinforce the point that 'public realm' is not always used for the purpose for which it was designed. I doubt very much that the architect of that building would have intended the steps to be used for sitting on.

All the same, what it does illustrate is how a flight of steps can add to the vitality of a street scene and if I believed that would happen in Lime Street, I would not oppose the proposal.

I have always believed that Liverpool needs more public space but what is important is how that space is used. It is not a simple matter of getting the right type of stone for the paving or the right bushes to plant. What matters is that the space attracts people to make use of it. That takes a fair amount of artistry.

Take another look at the New York photograph and you will see some of the factors that make that a place where people like to sit:


The hot, sunny weather - New York is about the same latitude as Madrid.


The huge amount of people in the area - mainly workers in the buildings surrounding the steps and in the building served by the steps.


The tall buildings in New York that ensure that many streets are in shadow and so open, sunlit, spaces are at a premium.


The view obtained from the steps of a vibrant New York street scene.


The office workers making use of their lunch or smoking breaks to have a break from their air-conditioned offices.


Those conditions just don't apply at Lime Street. Liverpool is often a wet, cold and windy city. The view of St John's Precinct hardly compares and train travellers are hardly likely to want to relax on steps quite distant from where their trains are going to depart.

Ironically, the people most likely to make use of these steps would be the office workers in Concourse House.

This scheme really needs to go back to the drawing board.

Everyone seems to forget, that if they are waiting for a train, they might not want to wait inside the station. Shock Horror

Everyone seems to forget, that if they are waiting for a train, they might not want to wait inside the station. Shock HorrorA big open public space near the trains is a great idea.
But bearing in mind Britain's climate they need to put a huge glazed canopy over it with a lot of enclosed space high above, so folks are protected from the rain. Wrought iron and glass would be classy.

Oh, yes, the Victorians already did that, maybe it just needs to cover more area.

Those New York photographs do reinforce the point that 'public realm' is not always used for the purpose for which it was designed. I doubt very much that the architect of that building would have intended the steps to be used for sitting on.

All the same, what it does illustrate is how a flight of steps can add to the vitality of a street scene and if I believed that would happen in Lime Street, I would not oppose the proposal.

I have always believed that Liverpool needs more public space but what is important is how that space is used. It is not a simple matter of getting the right type of stone for the paving or the right bushes to plant. What matters is that the space attracts people to make use of it. That takes a fair amount of artistry.

Take another look at the New York photograph and you will see some of the factors that make that a place where people like to sit:



The hot, sunny weather - New York is about the same latitude as Madrid.

True but therefore all of Liverpools stepped/outdoor areas would be useless in bad weather, so lets build on them yes...!. NY, Madrid do have months of bad weather and those steps will be empty.

The huge amount of people in the area - mainly workers in the buildings surrounding the steps and in the building served by the steps.


If a tram stop is to go there, this will be a busy place, along with the station itself, and the future developments that will happen in the near area. I agree that a building should be built as originally planned on the Concourse site, that would add to the useage of the steps.

The tall buildings in New York that ensure that many streets are in shadow and so open, sunlit, spaces are at a premium.

Can't argue that one, Liverpool isn't NY, wrt tall building shade/lack of sunlit area, and Lime St isn't surrounded by talls

The view obtained from the steps of a vibrant New York street scene.

St Georges hall, the vista down Roe St across the whole city, the media wall covering St Johns, The ABC Cinema when developed, etc along with all the traffic shoppers etc is vibrant.

The office workers making use of their lunch or smoking breaks to have a break from their air-conditioned offices.


There must still be thousands of workers/shoppers/commuters around that area who go on lunch breaks who don't want to stay put/indoors.


Those conditions just don't apply at Lime Street. Liverpool is often a wet, cold and windy city. The view of St John's Precinct hardly compares and train travellers are hardly likely to want to relax on steps quite distant from where their trains are going to depart.


Those conditions just don't apply to all of Liverpools outdoor/stepped areas.
It's hardly distant from the train, and i'm sure if they know departure time and have time to wait, they won't want to wait even further away on St Georges steps.

Ironically, the people most likely to make use of these steps would be the office workers in Concourse House.
True, but they wouldn't be the only ones.

This scheme really needs to go back to the drawing board.
Maybe it does, but just because NY Madrid has a certain set of conditions in a snapshot photo, doesn't mean it can't be so for a flight of stepps/disabled access rights ramps to Lime St Station here, just because the conditions arent exactly the same as in NY Madrid.

Everyone seems to forget, that if they are waiting for a train, they might not want to wait inside the station. Shock Horror

Maybe not but they are more likely to want to sit where they can hear the train announcements and where they can get something to eat or drink and a short walking distance from the platforms.

Maybe not but they are more likely to want to sit where they can hear the train announcements and where they can get something to eat or drink and a short walking distance from the platforms.

You don't need to hear announcements if you have a 30 minute connection to wait for, until 5 minutes to go.

And I would much prefer to get something to eat or drink and sit outside with it on a nice day. I would hardly say that the walk from the steps to the platforms is a long walk like you are implying.

True but therefore all of Liverpools stepped/outdoor areas would be useless in bad weather, so lets build on them yes...!. NY, Madrid do have months of bad weather and those steps will be empty.

The question here is really one of opportunity cost. Public spaces will obviously go from being very well used in summer to deserted in winter but my argument (and that of other people on this thread) is that much better use could be made of this particular space.

If a tram stop is to go there, this will be a busy place, along with the station itself, and the future developments that will happen in the near area. I agree that a building should be built as originally planned on the Concourse site, that would add to the useage of the steps.

I agree with that in the main part but this plan incorporates some nine tiers of seats - are the trams going to be that well used and infrequent to justify such a construction? Again, it is the question of the opportunity cost.

Can't argue that one, Liverpool isn't NY, wrt tall building shade/lack of sunlit area, and Lime St isn't surrounded by talls.

I think that Liverpool being built to the height and density of New York would not be a pleasant place to walk in. Those extra degrees of latitude mean that shadows are longer and sunlight is less prevalent.

Please understand though that I am not arguing against public space being provided - it is the type and nature of the space planned at this particular location.

St Georges hall, the vista down Roe St across the whole city, the media wall covering St Johns, The ABC Cinema when developed, etc along with all the traffic shoppers etc is vibrant.

True - but look at where all these seats are being provided. The best view would be from the front of the station - not this junction area.

There must still be thousands of workers/shoppers/commuters around that area who go on lunch breaks who don't want to stay put/indoors.

I think this issue is one of just why people use public spaces and it needs to be studied quite deeply. In many ways, I see this 'public realm' idea as a repeat of the fallacy that led to the ill-fated walkway system of the 60s and 70s. In principle it was a marvellous idea of separating pedestrians from road traffic but in practice, people shunned lonely passageways that had to be accessed by climbing stairs and were completely bereft of the street life that is one of the main attractions of living in cities.

I doubt very much that people are going to plan weeks in advance to go and sit on the steps by Lime Street Station. In fact, I doubt that they will plan it at all. They will be walking past and feel the whim to sit down and look for the nearest available space. That is why it is very unlikely that shoppers would make use of those steps because it would involve crossing a busy road and take them away from the centre of the retail area. Far better to sit on the seats, planters etc in Church Street that are immediately adjacent to where people are walking.

There are very few office workers in the vicinity and even less now that Concourse House has been closed. As for commuters on their lunch breaks - well only if the trains are rather severely delayed.:)

Those conditions just don't apply to all of Liverpools outdoor/stepped areas.
It's hardly distant from the train, and i'm sure if they know departure time and have time to wait, they won't want to wait even further away on St Georges steps.

I don't know about you Juxty but when I am catching a train I normally plan to get there sufficient time before departure to buy a ticket, a newspaper or magazine and maybe a cup of coffee. I would not add in any waiting time.

Often, I have had time on my hands, but at a terminal station, you normally get on the train at the first available opportunity to make sure you get a seat. I would not think of waiting outside the station (unless the train was severely delayed) and even then I think most people would not want to sit in a place where they couldn't hear the announcements or see a departure / arrival indicator. People are far more likely to while away their time in the Upper Crust, Costa Coffee or Coopers even in really good weather.

Maybe it does, but just because NY Madrid has a certain set of conditions in a snapshot photo, doesn't mean it can't be so for a flight of stepps/disabled access rights ramps to Lime St Station here, just because the conditions arent exactly the same as in NY Madrid.

That is turning the argument on its head isn't it Juxty? Portobello seemed to be arguing that because a flight of steps in New York worked OK, the same would apply in Liverpool.

I'm not saying that there is no need for steps or ramps at the station entrance. I have always thought that the central entrance should be wider and more imposing. What I am arguing is that the whole of this very large space should be given over to what I think is a poorly thought out public realm idea.

You don't need to hear announcements if you have a 30 minute connection to wait for, until 5 minutes to go.

And I would much prefer to get something to eat or drink and sit outside with it on a nice day. I would hardly say that the walk from the steps to the platforms is a long walk like you are implying.

Put in that way M L, it is hard to disagree with. I'm sure some people will take advantage of those seats in that way.

However, what seems like common sense is often more complicated.

The American urbanist, Jane Jacobs pointed out how four seemingly identical public squares in Philadelphia were used in completely different ways. One square was a vibrant space that was extremely popular and well-used, another was shunned by the public and was the haunt of down and outs and criminals. She pointed out the often subtle factors that caused these differences.

Now, I'm not pretending to have the insight of a Jane Jacobs but I think there are factors that will affect how these proposed steps are used.

Firstly, if you are going to use seats, you are obviously going to need to know they are there. Therefore, it will help if you can see them from inside the station.

On a deeper level, it would also help that the steps are perceived as being part of the station so you are not wandering away from the place where you need to catch your train. People are often anxious about missing a connecting train and some people will not want to stray too far from the station, especially if they are not familiar with Liverpool.

Don't forget also that most people have luggage with them and for that reason are not likely to want to walk outside the station.

Even if you know when your train is timetabled to depart, you are still going to want to see departure indicators or hear announcements as your train may be delayed or replatformed.

If people are going to take food and drink outside the station to consume on those seats, the question of how often they are cleaned is going to be important. Some people will not be too bothered about leaving behind a half-eaten tray of chips or a half-full drinks container and that would seriously reduce the attractiveness of the space for many others.

Providing large areas of unsupervised public space with seating near a railway station can become a security issue. Activities such as drug dealing and prostitution are traditionally attracted to such areas because of the number of travellers passing through. Therefore, the steps could easily become an area that the average traveller would avoid and could become populated by large gangs that would be perceived as intimidating by many.

A far better solution would be to use the space as a high level extension of the station with a mixture of enclosed and open space, great views over the city and with supervision and regular cleaning.

My main points were just to show that many arguments made against these steps can be dis-proven or as you say turned on their head. Who knows 100% what will happen with many of the raised points/arguments unless they design them all out to produce a bland space where nothing bad will ever happen.

Take another point you mention about drug dealers and prostitutes....! so steps would attract drug dealers and prostitutes more so than more shops/cafe/extended indoor area...! I don't think so, because they, (drug dealers and prostitutes), are there anyway due to the fact you mention about commuters look for a bit of casual sex and drugs, typically at big train stations.

It's as if every argument under the sun is being raised as a possible problem that will plague the area, only if these steps get built.

Anyway i would rather see the front extended forward, or for a replacement concourse building to frame a flatter square area in front of the arch, and who knows what they may have planned eventually for the concourse tower part of the site in future.

A far better solution would be to use the space as a high level extension of the station with a mixture of enclosed and open space, great views over the city and with supervision and regular cleaning.

I totally agree with that and it would be my personal preference. There is sufficient space for both anyhow :)

I'm not saying that there is no need for steps or ramps at the station entrance. I have always thought that the central entrance should be wider and more imposing. What I am arguing is that the whole of this very large space should be given over to what I think is a poorly thought out public realm idea.

^^ My argument, in a nutshell.

My main points were just to show that many arguments made against these steps can be dis-proven or as you say turned on their head. Who knows 100% what will happen with many of the raised points/arguments unless they design them all out to produce a bland space where nothing bad will ever happen.

Take another point you mention about drug dealers and prostitutes....! so steps would attract drug dealers and prostitutes more so than more shops/cafe/extended indoor area...! I don't think so, because they, (drug dealers and prostitutes), are there anyway due to the fact you mention about commuters look for a bit of casual sex and drugs, typically at big train stations.

It's as if every argument under the sun is being raised as a possible problem that will plague the area, only if these steps get built.

Anyway i would rather see the front extended forward, or for a replacement concourse building to frame a flatter square area in front of the arch, and who knows what they may have planned eventually for the concourse tower part of the site in future.


OK Juxt. I know talking about sex and drugs will make this thread a lot more interesting but it is only one aspect of the argument.

Please don't accuse me of wanting blandness. It is the last thing I want. My idea of Lime Street would be Liverpool's Times Square and, for that reason, I am very pleased that this video wall is going ahead in front of St Johns.

I am not as into this skinny latte view of urban life as it might seem. I would love some public space in which children play, boys chat up girls, businesspeople discuss contracts, prostitutes pick up clients, shoppers relax, old people discuss past times and drug dealers sell cocaine whilst musicians perform and bears dance but I think that belongs in a Hogarth painting and is not very practical in modern society. In reality, unless there is some obvious attraction of the space, it will be in danger of being turned into a seedy area that most people avoid.

If spaces are popular and well frequented, urban problems cannot be completely done away with but they can be managed. That is what leads to the sort of Manhattan vibrancy that we often aspire to in Liverpool.

And its not as if we haven't been here before. When the Pier Head bus station was constructed in the 60s, it had shelters at first floor level where people were meant to sit and watch the ships going past. In fact, it became the hang out for down and outs - so much that diners in the River Room restaurant were complaining about the smell wafting through the windows.

The most obvious example is the terrace of shops in front of Lime Street also constructed in the 60s. Not only did these prove very difficult to let - as did Concourse House - but the public space on top of the shops that was intended as a popular viewing area was almost always deserted and shunned by most users of Lime Street.

I accept that to every argument there is a counter argument but nothing can be proven until the steps are in place, by which time it will be too late. Of course, I may be wrong and this will be one of Liverpool's most popular urban spaces - in which case I will delete all these posts and say I supported it all along. However, I just don't see that happening somehow.

Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
A far better solution would be to use the space as a high level extension of the station with a mixture of enclosed and open space, great views over the city and with supervision and regular cleaning.
I totally agree with that and it would be my personal preference.

Me too. Definitely what should be done if no-one will fund a high-rise as per the abandoned tower plans.

I would never accuse you of blandeness, but i was intrigued by the sex and drugs you encountered on your regular visits.....:|, only joking.

If this does just become mostly steps as in the current plan, then i'm sure it will be very open, safe, clean and prozzy free, with it leading and openly visible straight from the main station, and the cctv that will probably be present.

The only part that is odd is the steps up/down going nowhere on the Concourse tower space, otherwise i think this will be a good well used open space, which many people moan about wanting more of in the city. As for the reduction in business density, well it was/is terrible as a business place, so i see no problem with the loss, and don't see it leading to a gradual reduction across the whole city to some sort of semi-detached industrial unit type height/density, because the city has plenty of area to grow density and business and is doing so now, and may eventually do so again on this site.

A big open public space near the trains is a great idea.
But bearing in mind Britain's climate they need to put a huge glazed canopy over it with a lot of enclosed space high above, so folks are protected from the rain. Wrought iron and glass would be classy.

Oh, yes, the Victorians already did that, maybe it just needs to cover more area.

but they already are going to provide a big open public space Holly, the problem is that they are going to spend a shit load of public money knocking down a perfectly sound, quite substantial tower, just to add a few more steps. They think this is worth it because Liverpool's public sector inhabit some bizarre la, la land where cost/benifit just don't come into the equations because 'Jesus up in London pays for all our stuff'..oh, and they don't like that nasty 1960s' stuff.

but they already are going to provide a big open public space Holly, the problem is that they are going to spend a shit load of public money knocking down a perfectly sound, quite substantial tower, just to add a few more steps. They think this is worth it because Liverpool's public sector inhabit some bizarre la, la land where cost/benifit just don't come into the equations because 'Jesus up in London pays for all our stuff'..oh, and they don't like that nasty 1960s' stuff.
If indeed Concourse House is structurally sound it is crazy to knock it down. Worst case, if absolutely nothing better can be found it and is structurally sound then it should be converted into still more student housing.

Concourse Hs suffers from the same problems as the rest of the Lime St area, so, if regeneration plans for the wider area are successful then there would soon be tenents lining up to be in it. As I have said, I am not taking a preservationist stance, I would have no problem with it being replaced by something even more substantial or given a reclad and more floors that would completely change its look and impact. The public realm that is being talked about is not needed to make the rest work.

How successful has the Rotunda in Brum been since the reclad etc Tony?

aye, seems to have been pretty popular. Interesting piece from last year in this Brummegem paper
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/birmingham-news/2007/09/14/the-rebirth-of-our-rotunda-97319-19789652/

There have been a few good reclads that highlight just what can be done... and how even the simplest can have a profound effect of a building's look. Littlewoods Building we have mentioned before and there is the CIS tower in Manc... I always liked the building anyway, but now it looks superb!
Reclad Concourse, stick another 7 storeys on... that's teh way to do it... much healthier for the urban environment than a few more steps to nowhere!

^^ True, I was in Manchester on Monday and that tower now looks superb.

they need to have something superb in this location to match the stunning views of the many classical buildings.. was walking passed the other day towards the bus terminal and its a great area that desperately needs to have this eye-sore sorted..

I'm taking it (havn't ready this thread in years) that a reclad is on the cards and the proposal is completely and utter dead and buried thanks to the shopkeepers?

they need to have something superb in this location to match the stunning views of the many classical buildings.. was walking passed the other day towards the bus terminal and its a great area that desperately needs to have this eye-sore sorted..

I'm taking it (havn't ready this thread in years) that a reclad is on the cards and the proposal is completely and utter dead and buried thanks to the shopkeepers?

Where on earth did you get that idea from?

I'm taking it (havn't ready this thread in years) that a reclad is on the cards and the proposal is completely and utter dead and buried thanks to the shopkeepers?

The proposed tower is dead and buried because it took so long to achieve the CPO's for the shops that thanks to the current economic downturn, the tower element is no longer deemed economically viable.

The new plan is the demolish the shops and Concourse House, with reports suggesting an on-site date of July. Following site clearance, the area will be turned over to public realm with steps, ramps, and trees replacing the buildings, creating a much larger, more impressive entrance to the station, as well as an area to sit out of during the warmer months.

Just as a matter of interest, I found out from a website that these arches on the north side of the station are all that remains of the original Lime Street Station. It seems that the idea of the arches to the front of the south train shed may have come from here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/Lime%20Street%20Station/080531-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/Lime%20Street%20Station/080531-2.jpg

Has anybody seen the advertising?? around the Kumar brothers building. A Mini car hangs off the building.

just noticed that some of the wraps have been taken off Concourse House.

^^

Well all signs are pointing to a demolition start date of July, so I suppose it would make sense to start stripping the tower around now.

just went passed on the bus and didnt notice that. Must be the london rd side or the back?

about 4.50:-

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2298/2568656982_95743bb47d_o.jpg

just went passed on the bus and didnt notice that. Must be the london rd side or the back?

The side that backs onto the station was defintly gone yesterday afternoon. I didn't notice it had gone in the morning though.

Note the Union Flag on St George's (and plenty other public buildings elsewhere, which do not fly the flag as a rule). This week is the Queen's Official Birthday.

Happy birthday Ma'am.

Note the Union Flag on St George's (and plenty other public buildings elsewhere, which do not fly the flag as a rule). This week is the Queen's Official Birthday.

maybe she thought Concourse House was her present and half unwrapped it?

maybe she thought Concourse House was her present and half unwrapped it?

Not too surprised she decided to not bother unwrapping the rest :)

Hotel now arriving at Lime Street will cost £50m
Jun 11 2008 Liverpool Echo


A 17-STOREY, £50m hotel complex will be built next to Lime Street station.

Approval for the plans was granted by Liverpool councillors yesterday.

It will include a luxury 4-star, 209-room hotel joined to a 195-room 2/3-star hotel.

The complex will be run by Clarion and will be only their second in the UK – the hoteliers are currently building their first in London.

The Limerick-based Chieftain group owns the land, on the corner of Skelhorne Street and Bolton Street, and will also build the property.

Sean O’Sullivan, chief operating officer of the Chieftain group, said his company chose Liverpool because there were opportunities here other cities no longer offered.

No idea if it is related or not to the start of work, but I noticed today that the phoneboxes on Skelhorne Street outside the old cafe have ben removed and quickly paved over.

Canon cinema back in action
Jun 20 2008 Joe Riley

A FORMER Liverpool cinema is to become the welcome point for the city’s international arts biennial.

The listed art deco ex-Canon cinema in Lime Street will be used as the official visitor centre and promotions base for thousands of tourists coming to the UK’s biggest culture show.

The building, opened as the Forum Cinema in 1931, but closed for the past 10 years, is to undergo an immediate temporary transformation for use by biennial staff from September to November.

Apart from providing an information and educational unit, it will house an art work with a horror movie theme especially commissioned for the biennial.

Regeneration agency English Partnerships has given permission for the former cinema to be opened ahead of its planned long-term redevelopment by Urban Splash as a new York-style supper club and boutique hotel.

Lewis Biggs, director of the biennial said: "This is a key building immediately opposite Lime Street station.

"It’s been dark closed for many years and we are delighted to be able to open it up to the public again.

"It will also be home to a brilliant and spooky piece of art by Annette Messager, an artist who has represented France in the Venice Biennale."

The biennial visitor centre will open on September 15 and close on November 30.

Mr Biggs said: "We can only use part of the building as much of the interior of the old main screen area has been adversely affected by dry rot.

"Apart from providing a reception service for the biennial, the foyer will also house an education unit."

Opening up the cinema is part of the biennial’s stated intention of enhancing "grot spots" across the city.

Already revealed in the ECHO is the intention to build a Greek-style cinema on a former bombed site at the junction of Renshaw Street and Leece Street, opposite St Luke’s Church.

There are also plans for a traffic island garden with animated foliage in the Jamaica Street area.



xx

Heres a quick recent photo of Concourse house with the wraps off:


http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/liverpool/cb21434.jpg

Not much going on except for the bloke in blue stood on the roof.

Heres a quick recent photo of Concourse house with the wraps off:


http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/liverpool/cb21434.jpg

Not much going on except for the bloke in blue stood on the roof.

Looking at that shot of Concourse, i feel sorry, it's a sad sight looking all neglected, quite sad how it hasn't been made use of properly, for whatever reason......:cry:

Work is underway in earnest to stip out the old shops

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5544/dsc0015ka8.jpg


The new screen makes a big impact as you leave Lime Street... the trouble is now that they've almost blocked off the street running to the left of Lime Street people are lost when they come out. This was always a problem with the design of St Johns and the position of that road, but now it's even worse. Unless you know the city well it's not at all clear how to get into the centre from here, and certainly doesn't give a good impression to visitors..
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/5062/dsc0018vs3.jpg


http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/159/dsc0023fb8.jpg



http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1880/dsc0024hc2.jpg



http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9564/dsc0025fa4.jpg

When you think that we could have had a fantastic new tower and a finished plaza by now it's a pretty sorry state of affairs. :ohno:

When I direct people out of Lime Street, I always get them to cross over towards St George's, go down St Johns Lane and onto Whitechapel/Victoria St.

Im ashamed to say it's mainly because I'm slightly embarrased by what the city has to offer immedietely to the left of the station. That includes the Adelphi/Lewis's junction, because the whole area looks grotty as fook. Maybe when the ABC is done up, Cheiftain build their hotels, Central Station is finished and Lime St is knocked down and rebuilt (and if Im honest (sacreligious I know) but, losing the Futurist is a price worth paying if it gets that block done up. It truly is awful that corridor.

I too wish for a smart tower instead of Concourse House, but would rather a smart piece of nowt than a huge milstone. We aint getting a tower, so I'd rather not keep bemoaning it and be happy the area will improve simply by virtue of it looking better.

When you think that we could have had a fantastic new tower and a finished plaza by now it's a pretty sorry state of affairs. :ohno:

Sadly, the same situation is destined to happen again and again, unless the system of CPO applications and appeals after appeals is reformed. Although over time my opinion changed on the suitability of this site for a tower, I do agree that it's a shame this work is really only just getting underway now, and as a result of the delays is going on during ECofC year.

Still though, at least the work is finally underway, which is really good to see. I also think regardless of your point of view on the tower (or lack thereof), we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that we are exchanging a building that creates a negative first and last impression of the city, and is widely disliked, for a public plaza that will be much more presentable, and I feel at worst, will only be regarded with indifference, not dislike.

Does anyone know if the arches of the station are going to be cleaned as part of this master plan? Tom’s pictures show how grubby they are at the top, I’ve never noticed before probably because they are mostly covered up, but when the shops are cleared and they are on show I would imagine it will be quite obvious.

I know some people like it a bit grubby to add character but it’s not my thing I’d like to see them sparkling like what’s been done to the port of Liverpool building.

Does anyone know if the arches of the station are going to be cleaned as part of this master plan? Tom’s pictures show how grubby they are at the top, I’ve never noticed before probably because they are mostly covered up, but when the shops are cleared and they are on show I would imagine it will be quite obvious.

I know some people like it a bit grubby to add character but it’s not my thing I’d like to see them sparkling like what’s been done to the port of Liverpool building.

They will be cleaned. I doubt this would get approved without that as a condition, considering it will now be the main feature of lime st. (apart from the steps)!

They will be cleaned. I doubt this would get approved without that as a condition, considering it will now be the main feature of lime st. (apart from the steps)!

Thanks that's good to hear.

They will be cleaned. I doubt this would get approved without that as a condition, considering it will now be the main feature of lime st. (apart from the steps)!

Remember, this is Liverpool... assume nothing! :ohno:

I keep forgetting what the score is on this one, so apologies for asking but.. is Concourse being kept and cleaned up, or razed and not replaced?

I keep forgetting what the score is on this one, so apologies for asking but.. is Concourse being kept and cleaned up, or razed and not replaced?

razed and not replaced......for now!

Ferge, it'll look like this when it's done -

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/Lime%20Street%20station%20frontage_tcm21-29776.JPG

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Business/Economic_development/Area_or_Site_Specific_Regeneration/Lime_Street_Gateway/index.asp

Tom, perhaps thats the reason for wishing to open up the front of lime street station to imrove visability when leaving the station. Ithought there was those black sign posts near to the station? Has Grosvenor missed a trick here too i wonder? anyone notice any liverpool 1 signs near to Lime street station or central station? I dont understand in this year of culture why they didnt invest in some signs in a few different languages to greet our guests?
kat,
ps dont forget there are supposed to be status going somewhere around Lime street, one of which from memory was ken dodd.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/88/246001615_662e702bb1.jpg?v=0
kat

more here http://www.flickr.com/photos/ehales/246001615/in/set-72157594301361420/

http://moneytreeproperties.co.uk/new/images/upload/Image/lime%20street%20inside.jpg

Are you going to be able to exit the station through the arches or are they just going to be glassed in, i.e pointless?

Are you going to be able to exit the station through the arches or are they just going to be glassed in, i.e pointless?

I'd imagine the latter, this is Liverpool afterall. Meaning people will still be funnelled out of what are effectively narrow side entrances to this otherwise grand station. I hope I'm wrong.

Not sure what this will end up looking like, but during the spider movement today this was being done.

http://www.tarkie.net/pics/IMG_3551%20-%20JPEG.jpg

Well spotted Tarkie! Looks interesting..

Just a random thought...

From the section of banner shown in Tarkie's photo, you can clearly see the design bears quite a resemblance to the styling on the La Machine website. I wonder whether they're going to cover the gable end of the station, and then attach the spider to the front, so it can stay on display for the remainder of the year? Obviously it can't remain on Concourse, but after this weekend, I'm sure it will still have the power to attract people, so why not let them see it?

i very much doubt it but perhaps there trying to get this finished for sundays finale? You know, spidey crawling up towards the station with a banner in background?

Great idea!

^^ I saw more of the sign tonight, and it's definately something to do with La Machine..

anyone notice any liverpool 1 signs near to Lime street station or central station? I dont understand in this year of culture why they didnt invest in some signs in a few different languages to greet our guests?
kat,


Absolutely agree with you on this!
I took a friend to Hamburg, Germany a couple of years ago and discovered the most tourist unfriendly city i've ever been to! Anything we discovered there was by asking around, (endlessly) or just by pure luck! We had a fab time... but not thanks to the Hamburgers

Rotterdam, Holland was similar... we couldnt understand why we couldnt do any clothes shopping... wasnt till we got back home that we discovered that Rotterdams main shopping is underground
:)

^^ I saw more of the sign tonight, and it's definately something to do with La Machine..

Tom, this is the graphic :nuts:

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc242/woody43/LaMachineSeptember08054-1.jpg

I wish they'd fuck off with their north west crap

Good view from La Machine's website:

http://www.lamachine.co.uk/gallery/pic1©MatthewAndrews.jpg

http://www.lamachine.co.uk/index.php/gallery/P60/

^^

Plenty of scope for some funky pavillion cafes in front of the station (and hopefully some 'chunky' steps to sit on).

Something like this would look OK:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2045/2245330411_40dcc28e6c.jpg?v=0 http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2337/2253773763_8cf98a00f3.jpg?v=0

... Plenty of scope for some funky pavillion cafes in front of the station (and hopefully some 'chunky' steps to sit on).
Something like this would look OK:Now the city once again has a fruit terminal it would be great to find a way to bring back traditional-style fruit and veg. barrows to the open space. A few rain awnings and some designated space would be nice. Power and wireless internet would be modern touches.

I know I've said it before but is that holiday inn facing demolition? :)

^^

Not that we know of, but with the big screen shielding some of the worst excesses of St. John's, and the other parts scheduled for refurbishment, maybe someone will decide to take a look at it?

I know I've said it before but is that holiday inn facing demolition? :)

Doesn't look like it:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=654062

Hordings are up in Lime Street. You can also see the new information screens to the right of the picture

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2694/abcd0006mt4.jpg

Doesn't look like it:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=654062

oh....shame, its the main building around there that lets down all the surrounding superior architecture.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/2879173670_10542ff9b4_b.jpg

Lime street gateway sept22
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3210/2879171878_c842bb533d_b.jpg
kat:)

concourse house 22 sept 08
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3051/2878337075_8cea7f7b45_b.jpg

work seems to be progressing at the back of the tower at the base
kat

Thanks Kat. I thought the shops may have started to come down by now, but I suppose it depends on which way they intend to undertake the demolition. Still though, work is underway which after waiting so long we should be grateful for.

Also it looks like the England's North West banner has invaded the whole of the front of the station. :ohno:

They appear to be working at the back of the shops Chris, same with concourse tower
work at the back.
kat

Hordings are up in Lime Street. You can also see the new information screens to the right of the picture

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2694/abcd0006mt4.jpg

Tom, and this is what is being built behind those hordings............

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc242/woody43/limest2.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc242/woody43/LaMachineSeptember08064.jpg

Also, while the builders are on site, the subway to Merseyrail Station could do with a re-vamp.............

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc242/woody43/LaMachineSeptember08058-1.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc242/woody43/LaMachineSeptember08059.jpg

The Liverpool underground is an absolute disgrace.

Damp, dark, horribel colours and no fascilitites such as toilets, waste paper bins and very rarely any guards or customer service operatives on the actual platform.

I see the vistas opening out to St George's Hall are already orgasmic! :lol:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/2879173670_10542ff9b4_b.jpg

The Liverpool underground is an absolute disgrace.

Damp, dark, horribel colours and no fascilitites such as toilets, waste paper bins and very rarely any guards or customer service operatives on the actual platform.

Central has refurbished toilets, Moorfileds has some on the platforms, Lime Street mainline has brand new toilets. How many tube stations in London have toilets, or overground Merseyrail stations have toilets? There wouldn't be guards on the platforms, they work the trains. Train station platforms don't generally have assistants on them unless the booking office is on a platform. I always see staff on the platforms at Central. No underground stations have bins.

Are you exageratting? :)

Merseytravel has also applied for funding to upgrade 2 of the 4 underground stations, one of which serves only the Wirral, only to be refused by DfT.

Not too sure what the delay is all about with the concourse house demolition. It was supposed to have started coming down a fortnight ago. I can confirm though that they are in progress with this, and that there is a digger on the roof. The top section of the tower has been removed over the last week so the roof is now level. I can imagine it really is only a matter of time now. THo we all keep saying that! I live on the 10th floor of grand central so I can see the progress on this quite clearly.

Not too sure what the delay is all about with the concourse house demolition. It was supposed to have started coming down a fortnight ago. I can confirm though that they are in progress with this, and that there is a digger on the roof. The top section of the tower has been removed over the last week so the roof is now level. I can imagine it really is only a matter of time now. THo we all keep saying that! I live on the 10th floor of grand central so I can see the progress on this quite clearly.

Doesn't sound like a delay to me really Roo. Demolishing a structure like this immediately adjacent to an operational station is a delicate business and I wouldn't be surprised if it works out at an average of one floor a week or less.

Any updates on concourse house ?
kat

Any updates on concourse house ?
kat

Not other than saying it is now totally wrapped and scaffholded (good word!)

I don't think we will see much of this demolition - just the scaffolded area getting shorter and shorter as levels are removed. Still - much better than the old fashioned methods.

I think this is due to the asbestos in the building. Its a pity, I'd love to see this building demolished in one fell swoop.

Thanks Martin & Bootle Blue

From Insider today.

Lime Street funding pot approved
The long-awaited Lime Street Gateway project is set to receive just over £2.4m from the Northwest European Regional Development Fund 2007-13, one of the first Merseyside investments from the fund to be approved. The Northwest Regional Development Agency (NWDA) is also providing a separate investment of £3m, of which just over £2m will be allocated for public realm improvements around the station with £906,000 going towards the Highways Scheme, involving the demolition of Concourse House and the row of shops that cover the main entrance to the station. The project, which has been in the pipeline for some years, involves six public sector partners, English Partnerships, Liverpool Vision, Liverpool City Council, Network Rail, Merseytravel and the Railway Heritage Trust. NWDA chief executive Steven Broomhead said: “Through creating a more attractive environment for passengers, as well as improving accessibility and enhancing surrounding areas, this project will help to further boost the city’s appeal as a visitor and investment destination.”

Top three floors demolished concourse house nov 12

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3275/3025961250_ba7fc9ff35.jpg?v=0
pecker was up in the top left hand corner of the photo below

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3190/3025959652_0ccf739c23.jpg?v=0

kat:)

Thanks for the update Kat. :)

It's good to see this one finally underway.

Alot of it is gone already, I can't see anything from Clarence St LCC. Just a massive crane type thing.

You in Clarence St, JMU?

I'm next to the tunnel entrance and can see it from my window. They have made a fair bit of progress, more noticeable now as they remove the wrapping as they go. There's a yellow crane taking two floors worth of scaffold away.

You in Clarence St, JMU?

Nah Liverpool Community College

Good view from La Machine's website:

http://www.lamachine.co.uk/gallery/pic1©MatthewAndrews.jpg

http://www.lamachine.co.uk/index.php/gallery/P60/

Urrr that is horrible!!!

It would make me avoid the station for sure!

Reminds me of the insects on Eureka tower in melbourne.

Its great they are opening up the enterance to the station!

Ironically, does anyone have any pictures of it being built?

whats this 85.3m figure about

Look at the start of the thread.

Chorley Boi -

The above tower which is under demolition (Concourse), was originally due to be replaced by a new 27 storey tower. Unfortunately the CPO's (and more specifically dealing with the appeals that resulted from them), to acquire the row of shops in front of the station, took a long time - a good 3 years - and by time the CPO's were granted and the appeals exhausted, the financial case for the tower no longer stacked up. The title refers to the now removed tower element of the scheme.

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/buildings.php?id=444&idi=Concourse+House&data=all

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/news.php?ref=394

Friday Dec 5

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3206/3086877439_1f1fa063aa_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/3086878943_abfd466a26_b.jpg

not that much progress on concourse house
friday dec 5

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/3087712052_d448dee91e_b.jpg
kat

I have to admit that it is good to see the arches exposed to their full extent, even though I have never been a fan of all these steps and seats, which I do not think will work as intended.

Thanks to Kat for the photos. I hope that before long there will be some imaginative proposal for the site of Concourse House - something that reflects the pivotal role of that site in the streetscape.

A few more shots of the same views

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3143/abcd0017xn2.jpg


http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5396/abcd0015ui9.jpg


And one of the new platform development inside the station
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/231/abcd0018nd6.jpg

A few more shots of the same views


And one of the new platform development inside the station
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/231/abcd0018nd6.jpg

The framework for this development is now up to where the pic was taken from, seems to be going up very quickly. Furthest structure away is to be the first class lounge, nearest structure is to be a new info point replacing current glass one opposite, rail staff accomodation and 3 retail units (unknown at present). Hopefully opening April or thereabouts.

HTH

A few pics maybe for future Generations to see how it once looked ?

Videos on the roof viewing all the Lime St area along with many more pics were also recorded for future generations to view....



http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/gedfleming/ANY%20PHOTOS/c362827b.jpg



http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/gedfleming/ANY%20PHOTOS/ce86d1b2.jpg

The framework for this development is now up to where the pic was taken from, seems to be going up very quickly. Furthest structure away is to be the first class lounge, nearest structure is to be a new info point replacing current glass one opposite, rail staff accomodation and 3 retail units (unknown at present). Hopefully opening April or thereabouts.

HTH

Hopefully in a couple of years they'll be digging it all out again to make room for new train services :(

Cock up..oops

Nice pics Tom and Kat. I hope everyone can agree now though that the view is not that spectacular.. pretty mundane I'd say. I think we should build something in front of it! :cheers:

Nice pics Tom and Kat. I hope everyone can agree now though that the view is not that spectacular.. pretty mundane I'd say. I think we should build something in front of it! :cheers:

I have to respectfully disagree there Tony. I quite like the revealed views of the station arches. While it is not the most impressive view in the city (I don't think anyone ever suggested it would be), it is pleasing to the eye nonetheless, and not just in a 'better than what was there before' context.

With regard to building something in front again, while the discussion regarding whether there should be a replacement for Concourse House has, and likely will rumble on for a long time. Surely in respect of the area directly in front of the station, this area should be left clear? Planning permission would never again be granted for something that would block the views of the station arches (like the Great Western Hotel blocks the Northern shed of the station), so you'd be left with a single storey structure, that would be severely limited in what it could play host to. In other words, we'd likely end up with what we just got rid of.

Isnt there supposed to be status going up I know one is of Ken Dodd, together with those box style trees? lets not also forget that eventually St Johns is supposed to be being refurbished.

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/Lime%20Street%20station%20frontage_tcm21-29776.JPG

http://moneytreeproperties.co.uk/new/images/upload/Image/lime%20street%20inside.jpg
kat

The Ken Dodd statue is going inside the station methinks. To be honest though, I thought it was already there for some reason.

On the subject of those retail boxes going into platform 7/8. They remind me of the retail pod/shed thing they have plonked into Newcastle central. Looks a bit naff really, considering they have a huge concourse area and squillions of platforms. Also, the hardest bloody station to find in a major UK city. No bloomin signage anywhere in that city.

Good laugh though.

How typically British that the passenger lounges will be finished after CoC. It's not as though it took us by surprise. There was a 5 year lead in!

The renders make the 'Gateway' look bland and insipid. The reality may be different, especially if a focal point is created (a fuck-off clock or something as many have suggested) and the materials used are high quality and chewing gum resistant. I have a theory that people come from all over the known world just to spit their chewing gum out in Renshaw Street, let's hope that this part of Lime Street doesn't share a similar fate.

Isnt there supposed to be status going up I know one is of Ken Dodd

And Bessie Braddock, (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7368718.stm).

Sounds like I am in a minority..but I like the Gateway. One thing British cities lack is open space and the plazas that European cities usually enjoy. I love the box trees pic. No doubt though, there will be the obligatory cafe spilling out onto the edge of it! Not impressed that opposite Lime St Clayton Sq expanding out by Boots - when in my mind lots of empty space within the centre - especially on upper floor to expand the shop without taking more space from the street.

I agree with you to an extent Rams. It could look pretty good. It's just frustrating that we know what we could have got on that spot.

Nonetheless, it's a tiny step in the right direction for the area that is now a huge millstone around the neck of the city centre. Any gains we make from the vista towards St Georges Hall etc are undermined by the horrors of Lime Street, St Johns Shopping centre and Clayton Square (I'd also include williamson Square, which needs doing all over again).

I was actually chatting to my mate last night about this and she was reminding me that when she first came to Liverpool (only about 3 years ago) and got of the train she said it was a bit like a third world country and wanted to go home.

She stayed however and fell for the place, but first impressions like those cannot be serving us well. These areas are the next investment priority for the centre, followed by a continued investment in Ropewalks to build on the progress already made and run Frensons out of town.

I just wish the credit crunch had held off for a year. We may have seen Skelhorne Street/Lime Street Gateway/ABC and St Johns all getting underway safely. Alas, I don't think any of these are now likely for another 5 years at least, with the possible exception of St John's.

It's difficult to change the nasty parts of Lime Street and Williamson Square if owners prefer to sweat their properties or can't afford to develop them. Clayton Square isn't anything special but it's certainly far from third world as is the precinct. Only someone who had never been to a third world country could think otherwise.

Obviously she was exaggerating, but it does always surprise me when I visit major UK city centres and see that that there are so few derelict buildings in them. I have on occasion walked around Manchester, Leeds, Bristol, Birmingham , Newcastle, Glasgow and gotten frustrated, upset and dissapointed that we slipped so far behind them all.

I've grown accustomed to much of the derelict stuff here. Because of my forum use, I was always optimistic, because I could visualise the plans for each area, Skelhorne ABC, Central Village etc, but outsiders could not. Despite out great strides, until we have far fewer derelict places in town the city centre will always lag behind.

Obviously she was exaggerating, but it does always surprise me when I visit major UK city centres and see that that there are so few derelict buildings in them. I have on occasion walked around Manchester, Leeds, Bristol, Birmingham , Newcastle, Glasgow and gotten frustrated, upset and dissapointed that we slipped so far behind them all.

I've grown accustomed to much of the derelict stuff here. Because of my forum use, I was always optimistic, because I could visualise the plans for each area, Skelhorne ABC, Central Village etc, but outsiders could not. Despite out great strides, until we have far fewer derelict places in town the city centre will always lag behind.

I agree, but Liverpool lagged far behind for quite some time, so i think its to be expected in some areas, lack of money etc etc.

The curent position of the Royal Insurance Building is top on my list.

Saying that, anyone know what happened to the Health Spar plans for the Royal Insurance?

Obviously she was exaggerating, but it does always surprise me when I visit major UK city centres and see that that there are so few derelict buildings in them. I have on occasion walked around Manchester, Leeds, Bristol, Birmingham , Newcastle, Glasgow and gotten frustrated, upset and dissapointed that we slipped so far behind them all.

I've grown accustomed to much of the derelict stuff here. Because of my forum use, I was always optimistic, because I could visualise the plans for each area, Skelhorne ABC, Central Village etc, but outsiders could not. Despite out great strides, until we have far fewer derelict places in town the city centre will always lag behind.

Lag behind in what way? If you mean getting rid of derelict buildings then fair enough. There is less dereliction in Leeds (once you actually get into the centre) ditto Birmingham and Newcastle, less so Manchester (turn left at Victoria, or wave at burnt out Mayfied), or Glasgow - it's city cente is full of unused/semi derelict buildings and those unpaved side alleyways do look like something out of the third world!

behind in the sense that we still havent built on our derelict plots, haven't converted as many unused buildings or upgraded those that are in desperate need. There are all sorts of grotty parts in all of the cities mentioned above. Unfortunately, ours seem to be placed at the points of entry, with all of the associated difficulties that this brings.

Another scourge of a city centre is surface level car parking, which (apart from Leeds) other cities have almost none of in the centre.

Clearly my confidence in town has been knocked of late, but they could have at least given the buildings on Lime Street/Berry/Seel Street a paint job at least. If that's all we can afford to do at the moment, then even that will help, as well as repaving Clayton Square (which is so far above Derby Square as a priority in terms of looking cack it's untrue).

behind in the sense that we still havent built on our derelict plots, haven't converted as many unused buildings or upgraded those that are in desperate need. There are all sorts of grotty parts in all of the cities mentioned above. Unfortunately, ours seem to be placed at the points of entry, with all of the associated difficulties that this brings.

Another scourge of a city centre is surface level car parking, which (apart from Leeds) other cities have almost none of in the centre.

Clearly my confidence in town has been knocked of late, but they could have at least given the buildings on Lime Street/Berry/Seel Street a paint job at least. If that's all we can afford to do at the moment, then even that will help, as well as repaving Clayton Square (which is so far above Derby Square as a priority in terms of looking cack it's untrue).

Two of the buildings on Berry Street have been rebuilt. Slightly overdone perhaps because builders can't be arsed to make the mortar look less than five minutes old but it could be worse - take a walk round the corner.

Liverpool is a frustrating place to live because of the juxtapositioning of the sublime (in terms of the Lime Street - Renshaw Street - Berry Street axis: St Georges Hall, North West Hotel, The Adelphi, Lewis's, Central Hall, St Lukes) and the ridiculous (run down former cinemas, poison alley cuisine, never-ending Rapid). It's also interesting because of this juxtapositioning.

Liverpool is better off for not having been able to go full steam ahead into redevelopment over the last decade.

If everything needing to be redeveloped had been redeveloped at once it would be impossible to avoid a sterile environment dominated by one period's architectural style. It is impossible to know how well cheaply built balconied apartments will age over time. In essence a lot of them are scarily reminiscent of 1960's tower blocks. Manchester’s Green Quarter or St George’s Island spring to mind as areas that might be derelict and full of crack addicts in a decade or so.

If Liverpool can prove prosperous through this slump it is possible that we will all be grateful that there are spaces left behind to be developed. Perhaps, with luck, we’ll get wealth-creating offices rather than built-for-profit and now half empty apartment blocks.

Liverpool is better off for not having been able to go full steam ahead into redevelopment over the last decade.

If everything needing to be redeveloped had been redeveloped at once it would be impossible to avoid a sterile environment dominated by one period's architectural style. It is impossible to know how well cheaply built balconied apartments will age over time. In essence a lot of them are scarily reminiscent of 1960's tower blocks. Manchester’s Green Quarter or St George’s Island spring to mind as areas that might be derelict and full of crack addicts in a decade or so.

If Liverpool can prove prosperous through this slump it is possible that we will all be grateful that there are spaces left behind to be developed. Perhaps, with luck, we’ll get wealth-creating offices rather than built-for-profit and now half empty apartment blocks.


Thanks, i live in St Georges island : (

its a very high spec development. Why is there such contempt for city centre apartments? Ive never understood it! none to date are lying run down and derelict despite 20 years of re-born popularity with city centre living.

I might add though, enough terraced houses and semi's in a number of areas are a mess today. Architecture has proven that regeneration can be achieved with any style, the three towers in east manchester and converted former council blocks all over the country, as well as dilapidated warehousing etc etc are good examples of this.

I for one would rather see these spaces developed today rather than leave them empty to satisfy the aesthetically lead cries of a minority who will never be happy, ever.

Thanks, i live in St Georges island : (

its a very high spec development. Why is there such contempt for city centre apartments? Ive never understood it! none to date are lying run down and derelict despite 20 years of re-born popularity with city centre living.

I might add though, enough terraced houses and semi's in a number of areas are a mess today. Architecture has proven that regeneration can be achieved with any style, the three towers in east manchester and converted former council blocks all over the country, as well as dilapidated warehousing etc etc are good examples of this.

I for one would rather see these spaces developed today rather than leave them empty to satisfy the aesthetically lead cries of a minority who will never be happy, ever.

! Do you not think that the St George's blocks look near identical (minus wear and tear) to the council blocks next door, only with smaller rooms, and being next to a train and tram line?

Most new builds are partially occupied by students and post-students crammed as many in as possible to reduce rents. It is a far cry from the ideas of 10 years ago and the beginnings of the new 'city centre living'. I would question the sustainability of the mix of residents and the ability to maintain rent levels.

My point was that if developers are given too much free reign they will become profit obsessed at the expense of everything else. It is not just aesthetics. Size of rooms and quality of build become compromised.

I have heard it said that most of the recent flats built would not be let-able by the council to council tenants because they do not meet minimum size standards.

Liverpool has done well in not getting too much of the dross that proliferates elsewhere. Only the student halls near Lime St stand out as an abomination.

Anyway, very off topic here. Apologies. To sum it up:

There's nothing wrong with space in a city and there's nothing wrong with a bit of dereliction either. Better that than a rush headlong into whatever crap will make someone a quick Pound.

Concourse House gets shorter every day. It's a pity we can't actually see any of the demolition.

In the title I see 85.3m mentioned, is this the height of the terminal (thats rather tall), or is there a towerto be built? I can't find any references to this...

In the title I see 85.3m mentioned, is this the height of the terminal (thats rather tall), or is there a towerto be built? I can't find any references to this...

you have asked and had that question answered already

! Do you not think that the St George's blocks look near identical (minus wear and tear) to the council blocks next door, only with smaller rooms, and being next to a train and tram line?

Most new builds are partially occupied by students and post-students crammed as many in as possible to reduce rents. It is a far cry from the ideas of 10 years ago and the beginnings of the new 'city centre living'. I would question the sustainability of the mix of residents and the ability to maintain rent levels.

My point was that if developers are given too much free reign they will become profit obsessed at the expense of everything else. It is not just aesthetics. Size of rooms and quality of build become compromised.

I have heard it said that most of the recent flats built would not be let-able by the council to council tenants because they do not meet minimum size standards.

Liverpool has done well in not getting too much of the dross that proliferates elsewhere. Only the student halls near Lime St stand out as an abomination.

Anyway, very off topic here. Apologies. To sum it up:

There's nothing wrong with space in a city and there's nothing wrong with a bit of dereliction either. Better that than a rush headlong into whatever crap will make someone a quick Pound.

Concourse House gets shorter every day. It's a pity we can't actually see any of the demolition.

No, i really dont think they look like the council blocks across the road....different materiality for a start, the only resemblance vaguely is massing.

Other than that the spec of the interiors and the spaces are really nice, very large bathrooms and the balcony is the biggest ive had running the length of the flat.

I would strongly recommend those who disapprove actually go in a take an unbiased look at these spaces.

We pay alot of money for them and the only students in there are the odd foreign students whose parents have too much money....dont be under any illusions, Student loans are matched cleverly by the demands of the general student accomodation....its a bums on seats culture were they take your fee, F**k you off to fend for yourself, then the student loan you get (after the tripled fee's we now have to pay i might add) is hovered up by rent and bills leaving most with around £200 left for the TERM maximum until the next installment comes.

So in short, education has come full circle, you cannot survive and therefore hope to get a good mark unless you have MONEY. There are exceptions, but without mummy and daddy's cash or a stupid inflated graduate loan you have to work.

And, when you work, you compromise your results and your sanity trying to juggle costs, deadlines and actually enjoying your youth only to have some jumped up, over payed lecturer tell you "well do you want to be a barman or.....(insert degree subject here)"

And, the icing on the cake is the lifelong average student debt that you spent on shithole student accomodation that your loan could afford that, on average per student now stands at £20,000 per head.

Rant over.

; )

No, i really dont think they look like the council blocks across the road....different materiality for a start, the only resemblance vaguely is massing.

Other than that the spec of the interiors and the spaces are really nice, very large bathrooms and the balcony is the biggest ive had running the length of the flat.

I would strongly recommend those who disapprove actually go in a take an unbiased look at these spaces.

We pay alot of money for them and the only students in there are the odd foreign students whose parents have too much money....dont be under any illusions, Student loans are matched cleverly by the demands of the general student accomodation....its a bums on seats culture were they take your fee, F**k you off to fend for yourself, then the student loan you get (after the tripled fee's we now have to pay i might add) is hovered up by rent and bills leaving most with around £200 left for the TERM maximum until the next installment comes.

So in short, education has come full circle, you cannot survive and therefore hope to get a good mark unless you have MONEY. There are exceptions, but without mummy and daddy's cash or a stupid inflated graduate loan you have to work.

And, when you work, you compromise your results and your sanity trying to juggle costs, deadlines and actually enjoying your youth only to have some jumped up, over payed lecturer tell you "well do you want to be a barman or.....(insert degree subject here)"

And, the icing on the cake is the lifelong average student debt that you spent on shithole student accomodation that your loan could afford that, on average per student now stands at £20,000 per head.

Rant over.

; )

Wahey!

Someone sticking up for the students!

It was only yesterday that I was having this conversation with my mum saying that if i want to get a good degree, i have to work over the Christmas break. My university doesn't allow me to work over term time, and Christmas/Easter/Summer are the only times that allow me to get the money to live for the next term. but if i do that...then i can't revise, as i wont have the time, and i wont get a good mark!

i think there were some very good points raised about the long term future of many of these apartment buildings, very few are owner occupied, and most tenants tend to be young sharers, particularly graduates. and many more of these apartments throughout the country are actually vacant. if you put together the bankruptcies of buy to let investors, the lack of available mortgages and the lack of appeal to owner occupiers even before the crunch together with the sharp rises in unemployment and graduate jobs it it does indeed place a bleak picture for many of these developments, particularly in overdeveloped areas and badly located developments

concourse house updates January 12 2009
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/759/dscf4672qz6.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf4672qz6.jpg)

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/2205/dscf4677un6.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf4677un6.jpg)
kat

Went past it on Sat but forgot to look, coming down nicely, soon be gone.

Thanks for the update.

It is certainly coming down now. It's now lower than the Holiday Inn by the looks of it. Another 2 months should see it gone.

Thanks for the update Kat. There's been some great progress recently. You can already start to get a taste of the beneficial impact the removal of this blot on the landscape will have. Not long now before we'll be rid of it altogether.

All the cracked paving in the foreground is the new public realm works carried out last year. Is this to be re-paved? Waste of money I feel.

I agree this was a blot on the landscape but as an avid Skyscrapercity forumer I think its sad to see a building that provided a bit of bulk to that area of the city being demolished. I would have liked to see a quality refurn or a new tower.

All the cracked paving in the foreground is the new public realm works carried out last year. Is this to be re-paved? Waste of money I feel.

Agreed, but unfortunately I think that's just another knock-on effect on the time it took to get the CPO's required for this scheme to proceed. Had the scheme progressed in good order when it was originally supposed to (sometime in 2005), the heavy works would have been complete long before the new paving went down. Presumably agreements with the contractors prevented the paving from being stored until these heavy works were complete.

Agreed, but unfortunately I think that's just another knock-on effect on the time it took to get the CPO's required for this scheme to proceed. Had the scheme progressed in good order when it was originally supposed to (sometime in 2005), the heavy works would have been complete long before the new paving went down. Presumably agreements with the contractors prevented the paving from being stored until these heavy works were complete.

It's also a mentality thing, the council operate on a 'spend it or lose it' philosophy which means very little joined up thinking is allowed.

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/Lime%20Street%20station%20frontage_tcm21-29776.JPG

although this is the proposed render I have noticed that they are boxing in a huge transformer which might have been part of the tower. Personally in time a new tower or feature will have to go on this spot as at the moment the concrete block which can be seen through the side gates looks a mess and is not on any of the renders.
kat

It's also a mentality thing, the council operate on a 'spend it or lose it' philosophy which means very little joined up thinking is allowed.

I think the council have through circumstances have had to become conditioned to working under a 'spend it or lose it' mentality. Much of the money the city has received from the EU and/or the NWDA comes with time-related strings attached, so it is very much 'spend it or lose it'.

I think the council have through circumstances have had to become conditioned to working under a 'spend it or lose it' mentality. Much of the money the city has received from the EU and/or the NWDA comes with time-related strings attached, so it is very much 'spend it or lose it'.

Very much so, it still annoys me though, it happens even within their own departments at year end with OUR money, why else do we always see poxy little traffic eleviation schemes all happening in March, it is so that the money is spent, they could possibly try to reduce our tax burden but that'd be wrong. :ohno:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3389/3194479874_e0e021e1f3_b.jpg
Lime street concourse house update Jan 12
spoil from the tower
Ps, Chris, lets not forget that the reason why the area had to be re paved was one of health and safety plus, I remember at the time it was the second time it had to go before a CPO so perhaps the council felt it may not be optomistic in getting the proposed gateway project through. wasnt one of the objecters a Hair dresser and the other a leather shop? and didnt it go to CPO twice?
kat

I went through the first several page of this post and I couldn't find a rendering of this tower.Can anyone help me out?

I went through the first several page of this post and I couldn't find a rendering of this tower.Can anyone help me out?

The tower has been cancelled. There is a render of it on SkyScraperNews (http://www.skyscrapernews.com/buildings.php?id=441)

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/2007/09/07/lime-street-tower-plan-scrapped-64375-19747419/

http://www.cabe.org.uk/AssetLibrary/7897.gif

.... those shopkeepers are going to be kicking themselves in a few months...

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/4659/p1000185xt8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9505/p1000186fj7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5468/concoursehouseunderconsuy7.jpg

With all these photos of Concourse House being demolished, I thought I'd post this image of it under construction in 1967/8. This is from the 'Liverpool City Centre Plan, Progress & Strategy Report 1968'.

St Johns Precinct is also under construction in the foreground.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2500/p1010765bz4.jpg

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6159/p1010764fj3.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5346/p1010766uy1.jpg

That building is far too tall for it's location. Someone should get onto the Liverpool Preservation Trust sharpish.

Strangely, I actally like that cube shape in the last photo.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2500/p1010765bz4.jpg

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6159/p1010764fj3.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5346/p1010766uy1.jpg

To me that's a really sad sight. :ohno:

Feels kinda emasculating.

I wonder, looking at those last two photographs suggests to me that they have merely down topped? it seems strange to leave the glass in tact and remove the protective covering especially with near by hotels which could put a claim in for (potential damage due to dust, flying glass) was concourse really up for demoltion or just down topping?

what do you guys think? down top because the glass is still in place?

kat

Maybe they've dug a hole underneath it and its being lowered into the ground - like Marineville in Stingray. Then, if they find a tenant they can raise it up again.

Maybe they've dug a hole underneath it and its being lowered into the ground - like Marineville in Stingray. Then, if they find a tenant they can raise it up again.

Arf! I think they're just waiting for a huge Monty Python style foot to squash the rest of it flat

It looks much better as a cube.

They should leave it that height and re-clad it to look like a giant Rubics Cube.

Or make it look like a dice and open a Casino.

Was thinking that last night, it actually looks quite good that tall.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5346/p1010766uy1.jpg

Yikes, tall is not all.....it would provide something in the area to the station, when there are so very few facilities in Lime Street Station.

A large Pizza hut perhaps.

They could always just make it all glazing and put some obsure, Alsop-esque blob inside of it.. what a lark that'd be..

better still, build the proposed buildings we got so friggin excited about in the first place :|

They could always just make it all glazing and put some obsure, Alsop-esque blob inside of it.. what a lark that'd be..

better still, build the proposed buildings we got so friggin excited about in the first place :|

Tsk tsk, so excitable. :ohno::lol:

It looks great as a cube. Imagine it with a reclad.

get it listed!!

So is it staying or is there just a break in the demolition. I think it doesnt actually look all that bad. Better than sodding steps!

It's going.

About 6.30pm this evening the hoardings and barriers were being moved to cover a much larger area including most of the side entrance of the station and half of Skelhorne Street.

Final push this weekend?

They'd knocked a large portion of that down this morning,I wouldn't be surprised if it was more or less gone by now.

As at 1.00 today

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6587/p1010769ln8.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/568/p1010770we6.jpg

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/5859/p1010771fn4.jpg

Christ, their really twatting it now. That'll be gone by Tuesday I reckon.

As at 1.00 today

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6587/p1010769ln8.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/568/p1010770we6.jpg

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/5859/p1010771fn4.jpg

:goodbye:

I'll miss this building in some ways, even though its (was) pretty ugly, it marks a stage in citys history.

:goodbye:

I'll miss this building in some ways, even though its (was) pretty ugly, it marks a stage in citys history.

yes--the decline years.

Fantastic!!! Liverpools ugliest building is almost history! What a way to start 2009!

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

:drunk:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/3247002071_24371d47f5_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3339/3246999515_08f948c858_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3532/3247827408_3304737523_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3447/3246997193_8fc71ed733_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3450/3246995799_7efe9d4bb6_b.jpg

kat
monday feb 2 and snowing:nuts:

Lime Street Gateway update from here-http://www.liverpoolvision.co.uk/news/shownews.asp?recordid=220

The final stage of the Lime Street Gateway project is set to begin with the appointment of Balfour Beatty Civil Engineering to construct an exciting new area of public space at the front of the station.

The award of the contract marks a milestone in the project which designed to transform the present area into an attractive gateway to the city. Liverpool Vision, the city’s Economic Development Company, the Homes and Communities Agency (formerly English Partnerships), Liverpool City Council, Network Rail, and Merseytravel are working together to deliver the project, which is funded through investment from Objective 1, English Partnerships, Northwest Regional Development Agency and the Railways Heritage Trust.

The Gateway has been designed by award winning practice Glenn Howells Architects working to a detailed brief from the project partners. It uses gentle slopes and steps to address the difference in levels from the station concourse to Lime Street itself, and will help to create a more direct pedestrian link to the city centre. It includes seating areas using carefully positioned steps, an area of tree planting, and feature lighting to highlight the magnificent station facade. Adding further interest the renowned artist Simon Faithful has been commissioned to design a unique series of etchings which will be incorporated in the glazing to the station arches and in stone paviors in the public space. The paving materials will be natural to reflect the setting of the gateway overlooking the city’s Cultural Quarter.

Completion of the project is due in Spring 2010.

Work on dismantling Concourse House and the row of shops that have obscured Lime Street Station’s listed Victorian arched gable end since the 1960s was started by North West-based demolition contractor Walter Forshaw Ltd in July 2008, and is now close to completion.

Despite the challenges of working in an area of heavy footfall immediately adjoining a main line station, demolition has been carried out without any major disruption or inconvenience to rail or road users, or neighbouring premises. Work on stripping out the interior of the buildings continued even when the goliath mechanical spider ‘La Machine’ chose Concourse House as a ‘nest’ during Capital of Culture celebrations in September.

Forshaw’s demolition work has received extremely positive feedback from the Considerate Constructors Scheme, an independent initiative by the construction industry to encourage ‘best practice beyond statutory requirements’, based on its consideration of three main measures of performance – the environment, the workforce and the public.

Eliot Lewis-Ward, the Homes and Communities Agency’s Area Director, said: “This has been a hugely complex programme and we would like to thank users of the station and the local business community for their patience and also for their continued support for the project.

“We are also delighted that the demolition aspect of the project has received industry recognition for its good working practices.”

“Our focus has always been firmly on opening up the front of the station, complementing St George’s plateau and transforming the landscape of this part of the city. We are confident that the outcome is going to be a major improvement for the city.”

Liverpool City Council Leader Cllr Warren Bradley said: “When the people of Liverpool put Concourse House at the top of a ‘Blot on the Landscape’ poll they sent a clear message about the need to transform this area of the city. The new gateway will improve access for all users of the station and at the same time encourage greater movement towards all the major attractions in the city centre.”

Paul Brown, Regional Director of Balfour Beatty, said: “We are delighted to be selected to deliver such a prestigious project which will create a great first impression to the thousands of people who pass through this busy part of the city.”

>renowned artist Simon Faithful has been commissioned to design a unique series of etchings which will be incorporated in the glazing to the station arches and in stone paviors in the public space. <
hopefully, this and the proposed two statues and box hedge-row should make the space more appealing.
kat

Just googled Simon Faithfull and got this:

http://www.simonfaithfull.org/

It will be interesting to see what he delivers.

About half as much gone again now.

On a flying visit through the concourse I noticed a poster stating something along the lines of that the main entrance will be closed for 12 months from next week for revelopment work.

As at 1.00 today

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6587/p1010769ln8.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/568/p1010770we6.jpg

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/5859/p1010771fn4.jpg

Just shows you what impact a spiders nest can have!

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3679/p1010773aq7.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2690/p1010774pg7.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7562/p1010775wa6.jpg

Hey, and now the Grand Central blockhouse is visible from St George's Hall. :bash:

Well, if they hadn't have buggered around with the Skelhorne St developers we'd have a couple of hotels there by now.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1681/p2040266os9.jpg


http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/815/p2040268bd2.jpg


http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2402/p2040270qg8.jpg

Thanks for the photo updates Joe & Tom, really appriciated being kept up to date with whats going on. Certainly opens up the area nice view of Beetham west in Toms photo as well! very nice.
kat

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6893/p2040287kg2.jpg


http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/8973/p2040288nv8.jpg


http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/738/p2040292uy5.jpg


Looks like they used bails of hay to protect the new sub station!
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5237/p2040296gc4.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/738/p2040292uy5.jpg


I'd never noticed that Capital of Culture Bid logo in the window of the building before! It's a mini time machine!

I'd never noticed that Capital of Culture Bid logo in the window of the building before! It's a mini time machine!

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/1198/p2040275en2.jpg

I'd never really agreed with demolishing concourse house or certainly with demolishing it and not building a tower in its place. However looking at Toms first pic I think the station will look great. A real gateway to a big city type feel. Good vision

That entire first floor was occupied by the Virgin Trains offices until a couple of years back (now relocated to Rail House on the other side of the station) and that particular office with the CoC logo in the window was my managers office! Been quite lucky on lates the last 3 days being able to watch the demolition at close hand!

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/1198/p2040275en2.jpg

Sadly, i don't share the same enthusiasm.

Excellent pics Tom.. well captured mate..

Day shots taken Sunday gone. snow shot monday night.



http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/gedfleming/LIME%20ST%20AREA/alonglimestviewofconcourse.jpg


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/gedfleming/LIME%20ST%20AREA/concoursefromupnearpostoffice.jpg


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/gedfleming/LIME%20ST%20AREA/limestview2ndfeb2.jpg


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/gedfleming/LIME%20ST%20AREA/nightsnowshot.jpg

I wonder if the large arch to the left of the demolition in Tom's pic, which is currently a station entrance, used to at one point be 3 smaller arches to match the rest of the facade? Anyone got pics of the station before the concourse was built (thats now been pulled down)?

I wonder if the large arch to the left of the demolition in Tom's pic, which is currently a station entrance, used to at one point be 3 smaller arches to match the rest of the facade? Anyone got pics of the station before the concourse was built (thats now been pulled down)?

I don't think so - I have seen pictures from quite some time ago and its the same - I think it was originally a vehicle entrance.

As one of the older generation I can confirm that the larger archway adjacent to the hotel was the main taxi and passenger vehicle entrance to the station. When I was a youngster during World War II, I can recall watching German POW's climbing aboard lorries to transport them to camps my mother told me (whether true or not) in the Isle of Man.

This is the Flickr site of my friend and one of Liverpools finest photographers Joe Neary.. >>>> Here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/exacta2a/415755597/in/set-72157600357855719/)

See the Lime St station area in Joe's 1965 Liverpool Homecoming pics.

Note the Punch and Judy in the 1st Image..for any Beatles fans on here, that is where Lennon and McCartney would wait for Brian Epstein returning from London with news of any record deals....

This is the Flickr site of my friend and one of Liverpools finest photographers Joe Neary.. >>>> Here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/exacta2a/415755597/in/set-72157600357855719/)

See the Lime St station area in Joe's 1965 Liverpool Homecoming pics.

Note the Punch and Judy in the 1st Image..for any Beatles fans on here, that is where Lennon and McCartney would wait for Brian Epstein returning from London with news of any record deals....

Ged, thanks for the link, that photo brought back a couple of memories, first the Punch & Judy cafe, was a great meeting point for us "young blues" ready for away games. Those Police outriders on there maroon bikes, back in 1966 one chased me up Barkhill Road (Mossley Hill) and booked me for speeding along Aigburth Rd, was fined £4 with £3 costs:lol: I was driving my very first car ,a Morris 1000 , flat out it would touch the giddy speed of 60mph.

Ged, thanks for the link, that photo brought back a couple of memories, first the Punch & Judy cafe, was a great meeting point for us "young blues" ready for away games. Those Police outriders on there maroon bikes, back in 1966 one chased me up Barkhill Road (Mossley Hill) and booked me for speeding along Aigburth Rd, was fined £4 with £3 costs:lol: I was driving my very first car ,a Morris 1000 , flat out it would touch the giddy speed of 60mph.


My pleasure woody mate, I know Barkhill very well woody, worked in IM Marsh on security for years..
Ehhhhhhhhhh, you were a little tearaway in yer time then..:lol:

Thankyou for the nostalgic look back on that link you provided Ged, nice to see how things were back then.
kat

My pleasure woody mate, I know Barkhill very well woody, worked in IM Marsh on security for years..
Ehhhhhhhhhh, you were a little tearaway in yer time then..:lol:

Ged ,it was outside the IM Marsh that the bugger pulled me , and that reminds me we did ( once or twice:)) bunk over the wall at the IM, if I recall they had a old out door swimming pool, that we coundn`t see go to waste:lol:

Thankyou for the nostalgic look back on that link you provided Ged, nice to see how things were back then.
kat

My pleasure Kat. apologies if I've shown this before..

Heres a changing sequence using 1 of Joe Neary's Images and one of mine..
Taken from virtually the same spot 40 years maybe apart...


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/gedfleming/GIF%20MOVING%20IMAGES/JOEGIFDONE.gif

Ged ,it was outside the IM Marsh that the bugger pulled me , and that reminds me we did ( once or twice:)) bunk over the wall at the IM, if I recall they had a old out door swimming pool, that we coundn`t see go to waste:lol:


As yer do like :)...Had some great parties in IM Marsh woody, Desmond Decker once played there in a tent for the Graduation or something..

What a weekend ????..:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

Lovin your work Ged :)

Gotta be said tho - I do prefer the view from 40 years ago. Think it's one of my favourite pics of Liverpool. Such a shame the concrete monstrosity that is St John's, took place of that view.

Great to see Concourse House almost gone too - really looking forward to seeing this development finally come to fruition, after the whole drawn out debarcle with the shop owners, that used to occupy the front of the station. I really do hope they get this right :)

Looking again at the plans for the LS public realm, although I'm a fan overall, the one major weakness is that all of the seating areas locate people so that they sit looking at....Lime St and St John's!

They will be effectively turning their bacck on St George's Hall and all of the splendour in that direction. Still, we've got to look long term and hopefully soon Lime St, St John's and Clayton Square won't be the disgraceful millstone they are now.

As one of the older generation I can confirm that the larger archway adjacent to the hotel was the main taxi and passenger vehicle entrance to the station. When I was a youngster during World War II, I can recall watching German POW's climbing aboard lorries to transport them to camps my mother told me (whether true or not) in the Isle of Man.

Thanks for the historic update PierreC, that's quite a memory you've got there! And welcome to the forum! :cheers:

My pleasure Kat. apologies if I've shown this before..

Heres a changing sequence using 1 of Joe Neary's Images and one of mine..
Taken from virtually the same spot 40 years maybe apart...


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/gedfleming/GIF%20MOVING%20IMAGES/JOEGIFDONE.gif

That's amazing....just shows the massive errors made by 60-70's planners...what on earth were they thinking? ...very sad.

In terms of views it's helpful to think in 40 year chunks. I walked down Skelhorne Street from the top yesterday and was very pleasantly surprised by what I saw. Hopefully Lime Street won't always be the tip it currently is, as for St John's ...

Thanks for the welcome Tom.

Slightly off topic, I've been browsing the site since acquiring my laptop following severe pressure from my grandchildren to "Join the 21st Century, Grandad", and have been in turn fascinated, amused, appalled and enthralled by the many differing views expressed on the various issues raised.

From my own standpoint, yes I can think of many avoidable cock ups inflicted on our great city in my lifetime, but even though mistakes continue to be made - and will ever be so - for me this is the most exciting period for Liverpool in all my 70 odd years.

Thanks for the welcome Tom.

Slightly off topic, I've been browsing the site since acquiring my laptop following severe pressure from my grandchildren to "Join the 21st Century, Grandad", and have been in turn fascinated, amused, appalled and enthralled by the many differing views expressed on the various issues raised.

From my own standpoint, yes I can think of many avoidable cock ups inflicted on our great city in my lifetime, but even though mistakes continue to be made - and will ever be so - for me this is the most exciting period for Liverpool in all my 70 odd years.

Glad you could join us. What's good about this forum is that it represents a wide cross section of society, ang age doesn't seem to be a factor in the desire to see the city continually transformed to fulfil its true potential. But it's always nice to have someone else on board who can draw on a wealth of personal historic association with the city and who has seen countless changes in their life time. Here's to the next 70 years of changes! :cheers:

That's amazing....just shows the massive errors made by 60-70's planners...what on earth were they thinking? ...very sad.

Thanks Ged for the Punch and Judy pic. I agree with Delores ... and its even worse when you think the 08 screen is a massive improvement on just a year ago!!

Still putting up a fight.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/338/p1010778sc9.jpg

Still putting up a fight.




It needs a "Mortal Kombat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatality_(Mortal_Kombat))" style Fatality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatality_(Mortal_Kombat)). FINISH HIM!

not long to go now until everyone can masterbate over those stupendous vistas now opening up.... of the Las Vegas slot emporium and those student flats, to say nothing of the arse end of St John's market on exiting the station!

well said ; (

Have to agree. Opening up this space is only as good as the views it creates, and so far there's not much to show.

There is meant to be another tower there. Which, in years to come, might (I hope) resurrect itself.

So when's the next meeting of the Concourse House preservation society?

Have I missed anything I should know about?

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/2700/p1000239oc1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8614/p1000240fm1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7930/p1000241op0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So when's the next meeting of the Concourse House preservation society?

Have I missed anything I should know about?

:lol::lol:

Cheers Doug!

Concourse House demolished is the first step to improve Lime Street and after years of delay we are finally getting somewhere. :cheers:

It is a real shame that Grand Central student flats were allowed to be built. Although they were always obviously hideous, at least with Concourse House in place they were obscured from some angles. As it is now they are much more dominant. I was unsure of the merits of an open space here but now I am against it. This space needs something tall, if only to obscure the monstrosity looming behind..

Isn`t there still going to be a high rise hotel(s) development on the corner of Skelhorne Street, just delayed.

That would help block the view of those students flats.

Nevertheless, once again. Whilst they are not great architecture they dragged hundreds of new people into the area, which is still what we want for the city centre. Greater density of possible accomadation, which in turn provides a need for services and amenities that are currently being crunched in this particular recession and as Liverpool has had too fight through so many recessions we cant always cherry pic. Even now developments that were only built in the eighties are being considered for the chop on this forum. It is unlikely that we will always have a new centre every other decade. So perhaps we should continue as best as possible to consolidate it and worry about the window dressings and building skins until such time as new developments rack up the appeal of each area.

It still puzzles me that so many buildings in Lord street did not reinvent their bland frontages during the time of the construction of Liverpool One, perhaps that will happen some time soon.

The Chieften hotels will hide those flats.

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x167/yoshef/SkelhorneStreet31May07.jpg



edit: beat me to it Pietari :)

Knock the lot down and build a stadium there! ; )

Cheers Yoshef + Pietari. Roll on the building of the hotel.

Any more pictures of that hotel? doesn't really make me think we are getting something much better than the student buildings.

Any more pictures of that hotel? doesn't really make me think we are getting something much better than the student buildings.

There is a more recent render of the hotels on the forums somewhere but I couldn't find it.

Any more pictures of that hotel? doesn't really make me think we are getting something much better than the student buildings.

Design-wise maybe not but I'm sure the build quality and materials will be ten times better.

Those student blocks are so cheaply done.:ohno:

Still putting up a fight.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/338/p1010778sc9.jpg

Fantastic picture! The old brute is showing its real colours now. Thank god it's gone, a hideous blight removed.

Fantastic picture! The old brute is showing its real colours now. Thank god it's gone, a hideous blight removed.


^^..Happy wanking...wanker..:lol:
Wont be long now before all you that never visit Liverpool can start the Masturbating..

You'll have to view this forum of course to see the pics people post as you would not have a clue what the place looked like if it weren't for pics on here...

^^..Happy w*nking...w*nker..:lol:
Wont be long now before all you that never visit Liverpool can start the M**turbating..
...

:nuts: For anyone mystified as to why so many of this persons posts are deleted by the mods, or why he so frequently comes back later to edit them, this is a flavour of the intelligent and mature conversation he brings to this all-age forum about urban development in Liverpool.

:nuts: For anyone mystified as to why so many of this persons posts are deleted by the mods, or why he so frequently comes back later to edit them, this is a flavour of the intelligent and mature conversation he brings to this all-age forum about urban development in Liverpool.

^^..So many Big words Rob. tell me, do you say "Absolutley" a lot..:lol: