Good point.

Yup - you can't have it both ways.

I can be the biggest critic of Rochester but also a very strong promoter. Rochester has some very unique assets...but it continues to ignore them or under fund their enhancements or spend massive dollars and attention on the wrong projects.

What still prevails in Rochester ....and its always been apart of Rochester...is this constant "smugness" about our region. a constant blind acceptance that all is OK in ROC. They will rationalize anything and everything in order to generate a positive spin. This does not help...just hinders positive developments.

On a positive note:

Nothnagle moves HQ to Cascade District



http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110417/BUSINESS/104170342/Nothnagle-moves-HQ-Cascade-District?odyssey=tab|topnews|img|Home

Also positive:

Greg O'Connell helps breathe new life into Mount Morris

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110417/NEWS01/104170355/Greg-O-Connell-helps-breathe-new-life-into-Mount-Morris?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Local%20News

Again, there is a trend nationally (and globally) for a shift back to urban centers. Rochester and the Region will not be immune to this...And the best part is, we have great infrastructure and building stock (bones) for re-urbanization...and we have a great resource of water and agricultural land that surrounds us...

This is happening...even in an economic downturn...it is happening...

Once the Josh Lofton renovation is complete, and with Nothnagle a solid anchor across the street, my hope is that attention will shift to renovating the buildings along Main Street proper. The Nothnagle HQ is a huge win for the west side of downtown, as it's a highly visibly investment. I'm still skeptical about the logic and design of the townhouse development planned for the west side of Plymouth Avenue, but it will expand on a growing residential base in downtown's west side, which started with Cascade and was expanded with Buckingham Commons. If the buildings along the north side of Main Street between Cascade Drive and Plymouth Ave are renovated, this are would really take off, which could mean a quality development for the surface parking lots ar Main and Plymouth. Parking is certain to become an issue, howver, so for these lots to be developed some form of public/private garage parking is going to be criticial. Currently there are no parking ramps in downtown west of Plymouth Ave.

New chain that seems to be a good fit for the Buffalo demographics is coming to Town, Delaware Ave, University Plaza and Thruway Plazw

http://www.conwaystores.com/locations.asp?searchstate=NY&searchzip=Enter+Zip+Code

Erdman Anthony to move to Culver Road Armory
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110419/BUSINESS/110419005/Henrietta-engineering-firm-move-corporate-headquarters-Rochester?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

edit:another article in the D&C

Rochester-area unemployment rate falls to 7.7% from 8.3%
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110419/BUSINESS/110419013/Rochester-area-unemployment-rate-falls-7-7-from-8-3-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

It looks like the long awaited renovation of the Academy Building on South Fitzhugh Street might finally get started later this year:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110419/BUSINESS/110419010/Two-downtown-housing-projects-receive-COMIDA-tax-breaks?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

It looks like the long awaited renovation of the Academy Building on South Fitzhugh Street might finally get started later this year:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110419/BUSINESS/110419010/Two-downtown-housing-projects-receive-COMIDA-tax-breaks?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

I have been very impressed by COMIDA, and Monroe County generally, with their commitment to downtown. This is the type of tax relief I strongly support, particularly when it works together with City development objectives. As dysfunctional as the New York tax system is, including the IDA component, at least our COMIDA is generally making good decisions.

Agreed. This is the type of tax relief, coupled with the Restore NY grant already commited to the Academy Building, that will allow an extremely historic and unique property to be rehabilitated for mixed-use. The investment will significantly increase the property value, and ultimately the tax relief and grant money will be paid back via other tax revenue generated by the project. To me it's a no brainer, and I look forward to seeing this fantastic example of gothic revival architecure preserved and brought back to life.

Hey guys. I know this isn't related to real life development but thought I would post an East End street plan I made while I was bored. The 3 big changes from the present are:

-inner loop filled in and turned into Nathaniel Blvd. Would include treed median/sidewalks. This would also eliminate South Union st. between Main & Monroe, creating land for development on Nathaniel Blvd. (Named after Nathaniel Rochester, couldn't think of anything else)

-extend Park Ave to downtown's Woodbury Blvd.

-Create a traffic circle where East Broad St, Broadway St, and Court St. meet. Also Broad and Court would go from 1-way to 2-way streets

My plan:
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8854/overviewwastend.png (http://img535.imageshack.us/i/overviewwastend.png/)

Let me know what you think. An advance sorry if you consider this is too off topic from real development.
http://img535.imageshack.us/i/overviewwastend.png/
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/C:%5CUsers%5CNathan%5CPictures%5Coverview%20wast%20end.png

Good news is that your concepts are pretty close to reality. The City is already going to build a roundabout at Broad/Court/Broadway and Broad will go to two-way (Court will remain one-way eastbound). Also, your Nathaniel Blvd is very similar to the City's current concept for the Inner Loop East project which would raise the Loop to grade between Monroe Ave and Charlotte St. The City has also shown a connection between Park Ave and Woodbury in the past, though this would require some touchy property acquisitions on Canfield Place.

That quadrant of Downtown always had the best opportunity for development...but has been put on hold for several decades because of the Inner Loop “moat”, the construction of the horrific high rise subsidized housing project and the terrible ...suburban like...site plan that accommodated the park, the subsidized housing project and the Strong Museum of Play. Its a mess!

I agree with the proposed street re-orientation....you must have a through connection between downtown and Park Avenue. But all this is for nothing if we maintain those UGLY mid/high rise Manhattan Square housing project. And even Manhattan square park needs a much improved plan than what they have recently developed. Also, some reorientation of the Museum of Play to better “urbanize” this suburban structure/site plan.

Basicly, this area is still being heavily effected by a TERRIBLE site plan devised after this whole quadrant was demolished via the 1960's urban renewal project ...and little has changed in over 40 years! Road improvement will help...but still much, much more work needs to be done on existing structures.

I knew about the study to fill in the inner loop but was not aware of the plans for a roundabout or a city study to extend park ave. I would love to see the inner loop replaced with a major boulevard at least sometime in the near future. I was also thinking of another possibility.

Would it be possible to turn the subterranean portion of the inner loop into an elongated underground parking garage? It seems like it would be a good idea because its a popular area of town that could use the parking to promote new development. The area is already dug out so all that would need to be done is the parking structure with a boulevard placed on top.

I also thought about the issues with Canfield place. In general I believe eminent domain has been abused in many cases, however in this case there would be a great benefit to extending park ave to downtown. Especially bringing the success of park ave and melding it with the Strong Museums major popularity. One that would greatly outweigh the cost to the relatively small number of homes and business that would be effected.

Every time I'm heading west on Park Avenue and approach Alexander Street I contemplate how great it would be if Park Ave could be extended westward into downtown. Canfield Place is a bit narrow, but it's conceivable that it could be connected to Park Ave without demolition of the homes along it. The bigger issue in my mind is that a historic second empire style house exists on the west side of Alexander Street almost directly across from the intersection with Park Avenue. While this building could be moved to allow for the necessary street alignment, I doubt it could be demolished as the buildings along the west side of Alexander are in a preservation district. To my knowledge the City has not conducted a formal study with regard to the extension, but it was mentioned in the last master plan that was done in 2000.

The Court Street, Broad Street and Chestnut Street Improvement Project just recently went out to bid, so I believe construction will start this summer. The roundabout will be constructed at the intersection of Court/Broad/Broadway, and as MAT pointed out, Broad will be converted to two-way. Court Street was unable to be converted to two-way due to conflicts caused by vehicles exiting the HSBC underground parking garage. If not for a poorly placed exit ramp, Court Street could have become two-way also.

The segment of Broad Street between Clinton Ave and Stone Street may be converted to two-way as part of the Midtown project, which would then make all of Broad Street two-way.

:)

:)

Nevermind. I found the answer to my own question. The thread does exist, but there have been only 51 entries since it was created in 2008, and the last entry is from August 2010. Don't you Rochester forumers own cameras? You live in the town that's home to Eastman Kodak, LOL. If any city should be putting pictures up on this site, it should be you! I for one would love to see them, because Rochester NY is a beautiful city.

move along, move along, there's nothing to see here.

Been three years since the first post in this thread which listed the current development projects as of April 2008. Time to update...


Current Development Projects in Downtown Rochester
(As of April 2011)

Completed Since April 2008
Mills @ High Falls (67 Units – New Construction)
Parazin Building (12 Units - Renovation)
Trolley Barn (40,000 sq. feet of Class A - Renovation)
250 South (5 Units - Renovation)
ESL Headquarters (New 175,000 sq. ft. 6 story structure)
Washington Square Parking Garage Expansion (500 space expansion of existing parking garage to serve ESL)
Warner Building (50 Units – Renovation)
Eastman Theatre Expansion - New lobby, rehearsal space, and recital hall completing Eastman's original vision
VOA State St - Renovated row building with 35 units
230 East (1 Unit) – Renovation and new two-story addition and private art gallery
Nothnagle HQ - Conversion of vacant buildings to Class A office

Under Construction
Capron South Lofts (19 Units - Renovation)
Kirstein Building (61 units – Renovation)
Monroe County Crime Lab - 4-story 45,000 sq. ft. regional crime lab
Rochester Educational Opportunity Center Expansion – Renovation of vacant office building
Alexander Park (105,000 sq. ft. 4 story office building – New Construction)
250 East (Mixed use renovation, 2 units and first floor retail)
Mills at High Falls 2 - 21 units in renovated row buildings
Windsor Lofts (488 E Main St) - 18 units in mixed-use renovation
Civic Center Plaza - Renovation of public plaza featuring green roof
44 Exchange - 29 condos and first floor retail space in renovated former office building

Approved/Pending
Academy Building (17 Units - Renovation)
PAETEC World Headquarters (225,000+ sq. ft. office plus first floor retail/restaurant space in new 3.5 story structure) Expected Fall 2011 Construction Start
Midtown Tower - 210 housing units and 100K sq ft commercial space in renovated 17-story tower
Cox Building (70 Units – Renovation)
University/Windsor Rowhouses (6 Units – New construction)
Depaul Carriage Factory (Residential conversion - 65 units)
Voters Block (Residential conversion of multiple West Main St buildings and new three-story building with first floor cafe)
Josh Lofton/Bridge Square - Mixed use conversion of 4-story warehouse to office space and 20 loft apartments
116 W Main/North Plymouth Terrace (24 townhomes and 4-story commercial building)
Manhattan Sq Park Phase 2 - Renovation and restoration of Halprin-designed fountains and creation of park lodge at former restaurant site

Planned
Block F (Planned mixed use development by University of Rochester/Eastman School of Music)
RTS Downtown Transit Center - Expected Fall 2011 Construction Start
Northern Gateway Landing - 48 units in new buildings on former Downtown Motor Lodge site
Alexander Park - mixed-use neighborhood on former Genesee Hospital site, unknown number of units
Performing Arts Center - New 3000 seat performing arts theatre at Midtown site
MCC Campus - New, expanded home for Damon City Campus, likely at renovated Sibley Building (see below)
Sibley Building - $200 million redevelopment of Sibley Building to include mixed housing, commercial, and educational space (contingent on MCC)
Intermodal Transportation Center - new intercity bus/train station at current Amtrak site
Inner Loop East - removal of sunken expressway and conversion to at-grade boulevard

Dead/Cancelled?
Inn on Broadway (Expansion of existing hotel and new condos in new high rise)
100 Broad - 30+ condos in new 16-story tower on top of expanded South Ave Garage
St John Fisher College School of Law – Planned law school likely to be located in renovated building
Charlotte Square (40 Units) Expected Spring 2009 Construction
Grove Street Flats (14 Units in new 4-story building)

Been three years since the first post in this thread which listed the current development projects as of April 2008. Time to update...



Thanks for the update. There's more residential that I thought. :yes:

Via City News....this is the selected design for the new Downtown Bus Terminal....

http://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/uploads/features/1_wi390.1303825066.jpg

Via City News....this is the selected design for the new Downtown Bus Terminal....

http://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/uploads/features/1_wi390.1303825066.jpg

Much ado about nothing. Never has so much time and energy been spent on a project that will have so little impact upon the well being of the City.

^^
Spirit of Ontario?

Looks like they've changed the link to the picture. Try this:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/swedishczech/11671-rts_busfinal_SIDEBAR.jpg

Looks like they've changed the link to the picture.

The picture has been changing every day. It's a new one each time. Funny. :)

God, that is just awful

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/swedishczech/ENLARGE_02paetecbuild.jpg

PAETEC Chooses Local Company to Build Headquarters
By: Casey J. Bortnick

PAETEC chose Rochester-based Pike Company to construct its new world headquarters.

PAETEC said the Pike Company will build its planned 225,000 square foot building on the site of the former Midtown Plaza.

The Pike Company was founded in 1873 and has regional offices in Albany, Syracuse, New York City and Hartford Connecticut.

"It was a very exciting time. It was the largest enclosed mall in the country at the time," Pike Company CEO Tom Judson.

In the 1960's it breathed new life into Downtown Rochester and the family owned construction company awarded the contract to build Midtown. Fifty years later Pike has a new client

"It's definitely going to happen," said PAETEC CEO Arunas Chesonis.

Thursday, Chesonis unveiled the latest plans to build the company's 225-thousand square foot world headquarters where Midtown once stood. Plans that include a large video screen on the side of the building, a roof top garden, and enough space for private and public events like the Rochester International Jazz Festival.

"Now we're starting to show people the real future we were talking about," Chesonis said.

Coupled a nearby performing arts center, a hotel on the corner of Broad and Clinton and retail space Chesonis thinks this site could provide the same kind of economic boost for the city the original project did.

"The midtown site is about the size of Rockefeller Center we can back a lot of fun into that center," Chesonis said.

As happy as Judson is to be awarded the $55 million project he knows he has a lot to live up to.

"Downtown needs something like this. And we're thrilled to be the builder," Judson added.

Rochester Mayor Tom Richards said a final deal on the PAETEC project should be signed by the end of the summer if not sooner. Richards began working with PAETEC as the Rochester's Corporation Counsel more then four years ago.

Richards said at this point it's a matter of finalizing the paperwork and getting the necessary government approvals to move forward. Richards doesn't see any major hurdles.

"We still have some work to do behind the scenes to get the financing lined up but that's going well to they wouldn't have chose the contractor either if they didn't think it was going well to. They wouldn't have done that if it wasn't true," Richards said.

The state funded demolition of the site is nearly complete. Chesonis called the deal 99 percent done.

Construction on the project is expected to begin this fall and could be complete in June 2013.

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/all_news/541509/paetec-chooses-local-company-to-build-headquarters/

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/swedishczech/new_paetec2.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/swedishczech/ENLARGE_02paetecbuild.jpg

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/all_news/541509/paetec-chooses-local-company-to-build-headquarters/



:ohno: OMG that building looks like a parrking garage circa 1985. I do like the new steet name markings though - they will look cool when flying into Rochester.

I have to admit. I'm disappointed with the size (short and fat)and facade, but its does have some interesting features like the rooftop garden and giant video screen which could provide for some interesting events downtown (a movie night, rooftop festival, etc) the worst possible scenario is ads on it 24/7 though. Really if it can bring people downtown and provide entertainment as well as sidewalk retail, I don't care how tall it will be. Improving the area at street level is more important than having a bigger ego from another street life killing tower like xerox and chase.

http://www.baviz.com/paetec_downloads.htm

check out the above web site of Bergmann Associates for videos and HD photos of the proposed PAETEC headquarters Building. I got got access to the site via a City News link.

:ohno: OMG that building looks like a parrking garage circa 1985.

That's exactly what I thought. I took a look at the picture and said "Okay, that's the garage, so where's the building? Oh, that IS the building!"

http://www.baviz.com/paetec_downloads.htm


Nice find. I'm actually less upset with Paetec after seeing the common area by the big screen. If that big screen is actually as big as shown, and used for community events and materials as opposed to all advertising, I'd be much less critical about Paetec's stubby 3 stories. 5 stories doesn't seem unreasonable, but hey, there's plenty of open real estate left to create density downtown once the demand ramps up, hopefully in the not-too-distant future.

I'm not sure why Paetec is locating that digital sceen on the south facing facade of their building. The parcel at the southwest corner of Clinton Avenue and Broad Street is proposed for a future development, and I've heard talk that a hotel may be built there. If that parcel is developed, it would certainly impact the sightlines to that digital screen, especially when traveling north on Cinton from the I-490 exit. That screen may be better placed on the south east corner of their building which would allow it to face the central open space, and therefore usable during festivals, events, etc.

I am still skeptical that the project will be completed. Construction is still about a year away. Until you have physical activity...concrete being poured...the project is still a “proposal”. Remember that PAETEC is still a penny stock company...near a 12 month low in stock value...and still a risky company that hasn't seen profits in several years.

But if it is built...the biggest concern I have is along Main Street. Clinton will never be a major pedestrian corridor...nor Broad Street...and of course nor any of new internal roads....but Main Street has the biggest opportunity for downtown Rochester. I would hope much of the retail activity will be placed along Main Street....and I hope Main Street along the PAETEC parcel is saturated with high end street furniture, landscaping, fountains, artwork, 24-7 security cams, heated sidewalks...protective canopies...etc. This pubic space needs to be something very special...high quality and unique!!!

I wonder the square footage of the planned retail that would exist within the PAETEC footprint?....and where they will be allocated? I also wonder if the rooftop park will be open to the public...or just a private park?

I'm not sure why Paetec is locating that digital sceen on the south facing facade of their building.

Because of the angles of the sun.

http://www.nba.com/heat/news/aaa_unveils_media_mesh.html

I think the screen being planned will be a “media mesh” rather than the typical fixed HD screen that are used in sports arenas/stadium. I remember visiting Miami and seeing the media mesh on the side of their new sports arena. It looks great and agree that having a larger park nearby would better take advantage of this visual show. Check out the website above to view Miami's Media Mesh....

Actually, I sent a letter to PAETEC a couple years ago when they first announced a high rise building... I highly recommended a large video screen on its building ...along Main Street. I thought that a dynamic video/audio show would encourage pedestrian traffic along Main Street. But placing it near the Park would also offer many advantages. I still hope for a large park with the ability to have entertainment/stage ...bring in large acts and having the screen as visual backdrop. Maybe a place for a Jazz Festival stage.

I agree that Main Street has the most potential as a pedestrian route of any of the perimeter streets around Midtown. Living in the nearby East End, I have walked down East Ave to Main Street many times on my way to events at the Convention Center, Hyatt, etc. Likewise, this route is the primary means for visitirs staying in downtown to reach restaurants and night life in the East End, and for the past 20 years this stretch of Main street has been a dismal expanse of sidewalk to say the least. With a transformed Midtown block and a reinvogorated Sibley Building, the connection between the East End and Convention Center area could be made very strong, and completetly change the perception of downtown, especially to those traveling here from out of town.

So, are you the reason it will have a screen? It seems unlikely that you would have suggested something like that and it just happened to be their plan.

MiamiHIGH....I never stated that I was the reason why a screen is being planned. I just stated that I had sent a letter offering the screen as a suggestion for the High Rise PAETEC proposal. I sent a rather detailed letter/e-mail to PAETEC offering the screen idea and many other suggestions for the Midtown master plan. I don't know if they connected my suggestion a few years ago...with what is being planned now.

I had suggested that they occupy the parcel closest to the Main Street, East Avenue intersection...the McCurdy bldg. Site. What I wanted to see is like a “Times Square” NYC type atmosphere. If you look at Main Street/East Avenue/Liberty Pole/Sibleys location...it is a very visual and very interesting intersection loaded with unique architecture/design. Since PAETEC is a 24-7 communication company....such a video board could re-affirm PAETEC and downtown Rochester as being “alive” 24-7.

But my suggestions were based on a High Rise PAETEC HQ. Now that PAETEC center is a elongated...small-rise/suburban type building...much has changed. But I am glad they will have a video screen. I just wish they would do something exciting on Main Street. Dispersing pedestrians on the southside of the PAETEC building/Video Screen near Broad Street will do little to invigorate the Main Street/East Avenue Corridor...the “potential” power zone of Downtown Rochester.

I hate to quote 'Para-Salin', but isn't this jumbotron somewhat like 'lipstick on a pig"? And isn't it just a little bit gimmicky? Is it meant to distract everyone from the building's design (or lack there of?)

Could someone please write a letter to paetec and ask them to put a building in that adheres to the city's zoning code?

It sounds like some of the posters here either work at paetec or drink the Chesonis coolaide...

With all joking aside. This project could be good. Quite simply, here is how:

1) Do not demolish the Seneca Building 7-story structure.
2) Re-clad the Seneca building and build the new 3 story call center (cringe) to the north.
3) Attach the two with a vertical circulation spine (fancy talk for elevator/stair tower).
4) This will allow for chesonis' and the other executive to have nice offices that look out to the city skyline and down onto the new roof garden (which, yes it will be private, but whatever).
5) Ask the architect to elevate level of design a bit.

I completely agree that it's absolute nonsense to be removing three floors off of the Seneca Building, but at this point I unfortunately feel that fate is sealed. The Paetac building is located within the "Tower District" overlay of the Center City Zoning Code, which has a provision for a minimum building height of 5 stories. In order to get planning commmission approval, Patec will ask for a variance (among other variances) to reduce the minimum building height. The real dilemma is not so much the bad design being presented, but that the Planning Commision often grants these variances which undermine the well detailed form based code that we have in place. The ratio of building height to building length being proposed is also outside of what the code allows, and that will need a variance as well.

New York gets $354.4 million for railroads

http://blogs.democratandchronicle.com/520/2011/05/09/high-speed-news-on-higher-speed-rail/

While Rochester's train station didn't receive a huge amount of money, its a good start. No matter what your opinion on high speed rail upstate, I think most people can agree that the current station is a dump and a replacement is sorely needed.

The City has an RFP out on the street right now for the Scoping phase of the project (http://www.cityofrochester.gov/article.aspx?id=8589948000), funded with Stimulus dollars. This announcement means the project is funded through Preliminary Design. They probably need another $30 million to build the new station, so it will be a while before we see shovels in the ground. Still, good news. Of course, had we not voted the idiot Republicans into office, the project would probably be fully funded and we'd have high speed rail much closer to reality all across the nation. Instead, we're fighting over abortion rights...again. God bless America.

Expect a major announcement this week, perhaps as early as tomorrow, about another downtown high rise going residential (113 units) with first floor retail and lower floor offices.

Sibley Tower please.....

I agree, it would be a great step for the Main & Clinton area if there was first floor retail(on the sidewalk, not in the building) and some good housing in the Sibley building. Also its good the see the train stations RFP emphasizes making the station a major gateway to the community. Which it really should be considering its prime location near downtown.

EDIT:

haha, as soon as I post this I go on the the D & C website and see this...
Historic Lincoln Alliance Building downtown facing $22 million makeover (http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110510/NEWS01/110510009/Historic-Lincoln-Alliance-Building-downtown-facing-22-million-makeover?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home)

Here is a picture of the building
http://www.emporis.com/img/6/2006/02/438138.jpg

This is great news! The Alliance Building is a gem, and a very prominent building in downtown. It sits across Stone Street from one of my favorite under-appreciated buildings in downtown, the former National Clothing Company building, which is screaming for a conversion as well. Not only will this project compliment the efforts going on at Midtown, it represents the first major mixed-use development to occur in downtown on Main Street proper. The Temple Building is close to Main, but until now developers have been shy to put housing directly on Main. I have to imagine the Sibley Tower won't be far behind. In conjunction with getting the bus stops off of Main Street between the river and Liberty Pole as part of the RTS transit complex, this is a major leap towards making Main Street a vibrant corrdidor once again. I wonder if the developers will think to reconstruct the turret that once graced the top of the Alliance Building. It was removed, instead of being repaired, a number of years ago. It appears in many historic photos of downtown as a dominant landmark.

This is great news! The Alliance Buildings is a gem, and a very prominent building in downtown. It sits across Stone Street from one of my favorite under-appreciated buildings in downtown, the former National Clothing Company building, which is screaming for a conversion as well. Not only will this project compliment the efforts going on at Midtown, it represents the first major mixed-use development to occur in downtown on Main Street proper. The Temple Building is close to Main, but until now developers have been shy to put housing directly on Main. I have to imagine the Sibley Tower won't be far behind. In conjunction with getting the bus stops off of Main Street between the river and Liberty Pole as part of the RTS transit complex, this is a major leap towards making Main Street a vibrant corrdidor once again. I wonder if the developers will think to reconstruct the turret that once graced the top of the Alliance Building. It was removed, intead of being repaired, a number of years ago. It appears in many historic photos of downtown as a dominant landmark.

This is the real deal - a major building going mixed use in a big way- with over 110 apartments and over 22 million dollars in cost. Congrats Rochester!

http://cmsimg.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Avis=A2&Dato=20110510&Kategori=NEWS01&Lopenr=110510009&Ref=AR&MaxW=300&Border=0

Great picture. The base that once support a monumental turret can be seen just above the cornice at the roofline of the building.

Some additional information ....via the Rochester Business Journal:

A joint venture between Rochester developer Patrick Dutton and Syracuse-based Franklin Properties LLC plans to buy and rehabilitate the Lincoln Alliance Building on East Main Street, city officials announced Tuesday.

Franklin Properties/Dutton plans to spend $21.9 million to convert the 15-story, 182,000-square-foot structure at 183 E. Main St. to 40,000 square feet of Class A office and commercial space, and 113 loft apartments, officials said.

The project is scheduled to begin this year and be completed in 2013. It will attract or retain some 140 workers at downtown businesses, and bring 160 new residents to the area, officials said.

Legislation was scheduled to be delivered Tuesday to City Council allowing the city to offer a $3 million, 30-month construction loan to the developer for gap financing until state and federal historic rehabilitation tax credits are offered, officials said.

The loan requires 17 of the residential units, or 15 percent of the 113 total, be affordable to households earning no more than 120 percent of the area median income for 10 years, officials said. Rents will range from $850 to $1,350 per month.

The Lincoln Alliance Building is a half-block away from the Midtown Plaza renovation project.

“The city and New York State investments in the Midtown Rochester Rising project are already paying dividends by sparking interest in the surrounding properties,” Rochester Mayor Thomas Richards said in a statement.

“That the Midtown activity has caught the attention of a developer who recognizes the value of this historic building is yet another bonus. This is a strong vote of confidence in Rochester’s downtown real estate market and a solid indicator of future investment in the center city.”

The building was designed in a Renaissance Revival style by the McKim, Mead and White architectural firm in association with Rochester architect J. Foster Warner, city officials said.

The building opened in 1926 as the Lincoln Alliance Bank, and is listed on the National Register of Historic Places, officials said.

Many of the historic interior and exterior features will be restored, officials said, with new mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems installed to provide efficient services.

The developer plans to return some 7,000 square feet of interior, mall-style retail space on the ground floor to street-oriented commercial space, officials said. The Class A office space will be on the second, third and fourth floors. The existing penthouse-level commercial space likely will remain.

Loft apartments will begin on the fifth floor.

Tax revenue from the property is projected to be $2.9 million over 20 years, nearly four times what it would be without the renovation and the tax abatement the developer will seek from the County of Monroe Industrial Development Agency, officials said.

Talk about a good news blitz for Rochester.

Rail Transportation Company Adds 200 Local Jobs
http://rochesterhomepage.net/fulltext/?nxd_id=249337

Alliance Building revitalization, funds to plan a new rail station, and now 200 new jobs.

The developer plans to return some 7,000 square feet of interior, mall-style retail space on the ground floor to street-oriented commercial space, officials said. The Class A office space will be on the second, third and fourth floors. The existing penthouse-level commercial space likely will remain.
Its good to see that the Alliance Buildings will be creating some new street oriented retail space.

And the good news keeps on coming... Next week, we should hear about a proposal by John Billone (Flower City Management) to upgrade the shabby East Avenue Inn at the corner of East & Alexander to a higher-end hotel and suites as well as upgrade the prominent commercial building that hugs the corner.

And 200 more high paying jobs in our area can't hurt...

200 New Local Jobs Announced In Rail Sector
By: Leah George

Alstom Transportation Inc. plans to invest $3-million to expand it's rail signaling manufacturing facility in West Henrietta and recruit 200 new engineers and qualified workers.

The announcement came one day after the U.S. Transportation secretary announced $2 billion in federal high speed rail awards.

Alstom believes its leading edge power electronics technologies and positive train control system are the future of the rail sector.

Transportation leaders say there is demand for safe, convenient, and affordable rail service, especially from academia.

"Students and young people love to travel by rail. It's a romantic way, and it's a fast way, and they're very environmentally focused and recognize that the price of gasoline and the impact it’s having on our society," said Joan McDonald, the NYS Transportation commissioner.

"It's going to take innovation and hard work, but we can and we will breathe new life and new jobs into this region,” said Deputy U.S. Transportation Secretary John Porcari. “Given a chance, we can out-build, and out-compete anybody in the world."

Porcari said high speed rail is key to America's long-term competitiveness. He said the government has tied strict made-in-America rules to the federal awards.
http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/542894/200-new-local-jobs-announced-in-rail-sector/

And for those who have yearned for Buffalo's Mighty Taco, YNN is reporting that your wishes are coming true... near Southtown Plaza in Henrietta: http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/542916/mighty-taco-to-expand-to-rochester-area-/

Breaking news via the Democrat and Chronicle....


Tommy Hilfiger is coming to Downtown!!!!!

.....Downtown Corning, NY



Hopefully Rochester can create an up-scale, dynamic Main Street corridor like downtown Corning. The salvation of downtown Rochester is Main Street and sections of East Avenue. Major upgrades to the public space along this corridor is essential if specialized, upscale retail will return. If Corning NY can do it with such a small population base....Rochester can do it...if it is aggressive and goes in the right direction in planning and sufficient capital improvements along Main Street.


Tommy Hilfiger store to open in Corning


The Tommy Hilfiger clothing company will open a retail store in Corning's Gaffer District this fall.

After undergoing interior and exterior renovations, the store, in the former Treu Office Supply building at 43-45 E. Market St., is expected to open by Sept. 1. The signature retailer and anchor property will feature a full line of Tommy Hilfiger apparel brands, along with fashion and lifestyle accessories. It will not be an outlet store.

"It's going to be a little bit of everything all mixed together," said Betsy Hilfiger, who is returning to the area to manage the store. She is the designer's sister and for the past eight years has worked in New York City as the Hilfiger company's community relations director. Both of them are Elmira natives.

"We're planning a very eclectic shop that should please everyone. It will carry sportswear, business casual and business attire and anything that's unusual or fun. We think the customer base there will be eager to have something like that," she said.

Hilfiger said discussions about the store started last year when Tommy Hilfiger was the featured speaker at an event sponsored by Regional Economic Development and Energy Corp.

"They (the Gaffer District) had been looking for more retail shops on Market Street. They talked to Tommy. He told them to send a proposal and they did," Hilfiger said. Although the store will be company-owned, Betsy Hilfiger will handle the day-to-day operations.

Coleen Fabrizi, executive director of the Gaffer District, said the addition of a Tommy Hilfiger store in Corning is "especially good news."

"We have had requests from shoppers and diners that they want to see the growth of retail in our downtown and they are very excited when they can see more development," she said.

"High-quality retail has been essential to the vitality of our downtown," she added in a prepared statement. "We are honored to welcome Tommy Hilfiger to our family of businesses and look forward to sharing in their success."

jgaaron@gannett.com

I've heard that Flower City's rehab of the East Avenue Inn may convert some of the buildings to rental aprtments in order to reduce the number of hotel rooms, which will also be upgraded. Additionally, the plans for the bar/restaurant space at the corner of East and Alexander include retaining the existing building, but changing the facade in such a way that opens it up to East Avenue. Large windows and doors opening up to that giant patio makes sense, plus it will bring a lot of light into that space, as opposed to the light that comes through those existing "porthole" windows. It's really a prime corner.

Additionally, the plans for the bar/restaurant space at the corner of East and Alexander include retaining the existing building, but changing the facade in such a way that opens it up to East Avenue. Large windows and doors opening up to that giant patio makes sense, plus it will bring a lot of light into that space, as opposed to the light that comes through those existing "porthole" windows. It's really a prime corner.

It would be great if they got rid of that fence and made the building more street oriented. Some street facing windows,doors, & patio would be much better than the fence and parking lot that currently lines East Ave on the property.

Great picture. The base that once support a monumental turret can be seen just above the cornice at the roofline of the building.

Will they replace the octagonal tower that use to sit on top of the building as part of this renovation?

Did some digging and didnt seem to be able to pull any pictures off the internet with the tower in place.

http://www.slideshare.net/tentaclifton/chase-tower-6754610

Page 7 of the slide show has a picture with the spire/turret.

In a joint meeting between the City Planning Commission and Zoning Board last night, it appears that the planning commission gave the green light for East Ave Wegmans, but the Zoning Board is asking for some modifications. No details yet on what the requested changes are.

http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Board-Wants-Changes-in-East-Ave-Wegmans-Plan/-jjGgguGxUiWVJEs1MSUrQ.cspx

It would be nice if the D&C could report on specifics from the meeting last night. This article couldn't be any more vague.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110517/NEWS01/110517005/Wegmans-Timeline-East-Ave-project-delayed-until-least-2013?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

A few big stories on the development front...

Sources: 500 city jobs to get new address
Posted at: 05/17/2011 5:08 PM | Updated at: 05/17/2011 7:49 PM
By: Pat McGonigle | WHEC.com

Sources tell News 10 NBC that One Communications, which is in the process of being bought by Earthlink, will be leaving the HSBC Building in downtown Rochester next January.

The telecommunications company will move its approximately 500 local employees to the soon-to-be-finished Alexander Park building at Monroe Avenue and Alexander Street.

One Communications currently occupies four floors of the HSBC building and is the biggest tenant there. The HSBC Building is located at 100 Chestnut Street, next door to Manhattan Square Park and the The Strong.

Officials with One Communications did not return our phone calls. We did get a reaction from the owners of the HSBC building, who tried to keep One Communications at their current address.

"We're sorry to lose a great tenant," said Don Robinson, Sr. VP with Benderson Development. "But we know downtown parking was an issue we could not overcome."

Sources tell News 10 NBC free parking was a major sticking point in the negotiations. We're told a news conference is planned for tomorrow about the move.

http://www.whec.com/news/stories/S2115932.shtml?cat=565

Pretty pathetic that free parking is being reported as the motivating factor here. I'm sure there's more to it, and it's good that they're staying in the city and on the periphery of downtown. Benderson will be fine; HSBC is a Class A building.

Also...

COMIDA approves tax breaks for rehabbing of East Avenue Inn
Written by Matthew Daneman, Staff writer

The East Avenue Inn, at the intersection with Alexander Street in Rochester’s East End District, is about to get new ownership and a $4 million makeover, with a bit of taxpayer assistance.

The County of Monroe Industrial Development Agency today approved $132,000 worth of sales, mortgage and property tax breaks for the Billone family and their $4 million plan for purchasing and rehabilitating the 2.4 acre property.

John Billone Jr. said the intent is to convert some of the hotel rooms there into extended-stay suites, attract several tenants to the 10,000-square-foot commercial building on the site that traditionally has housed a parade of restaurants and bars, and better market and advertise the hotel.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110517/BUSINESS/110517027/COMIDA-approves-tax-breaks-rehabbing-East-Avenue-Inn?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Home|s

This is likely the first step in Earthlink moving their HQ to Rochester. Their CEO, Rolla Huff, is a local guy with strong ties to our area. Besides, ATL has no real telecom heritage whereas ROC is one of America's telecom hotbeds.

This is likely the first step in Earthlink moving their HQ to Rochester. Their CEO, Rolla Huff, is a local guy with strong ties to our area. Besides, ATL has no real telecom heritage whereas ROC is one of America's telecom hotbeds.

Any sort of evidence or information that would make you think that? (other than a hunch). I'm not being pessimistic, just wondering. It would be great for a large company to move downtown from out of state, rather than from the suburbs where all the employees already live in the region.

Just a hunch, Huff did this once before in the mid-90s with mPOWER when he moved that company to ROC from Vegas. Earthlink is a much bigger fish than mPOWER ever was so it will take a few years.

This is likely the first step in Earthlink moving their HQ to Rochester. Their CEO, Rolla Huff, is a local guy with strong ties to our area. Besides, ATL has no real telecom heritage whereas ROC is one of America's telecom hotbeds.

While it looks like some of their operations will remain in Rochester with these acquisitions, saying that the HQ will eventually relocate to ROC is not much more than wishful thinking and will ultimately prove to be nonsense.

Of course, as shown by your past reactions to someone pointing out one of your assertions as being pure bunk, you'll respond with an expletive.

Just a hunch, Huff did this once before in the mid-90s with mPOWER when he moved that company to ROC from Vegas. Earthlink is a much bigger fish than mPOWER ever was so it will take a few years.

Yeah, and he also sold part of Mpower Communications to McLeodUSA, which was based in Chicago at the time, while the remainder of the company became TelePacific Communications, which is based in California. So much for his propensity to keep a HQ in ROC.

McCleodUSA eventually just happened to be bought by PAETEC. Maybe your dream will come true one day by Earthlink and PAETEC merging.

I said it's a hunch and sure, that's wishful thinking. Big score there, chief. You're really pitching a shutout. mPOWER's assets were bought after it went bankrupt in the 2001 recession. Huff didn't just sell out, the company went broke along with dozens of other CLECs. And yeah, McLeod was bought out by another ROC telecom. Goes to show you where telecom's talent is located. It ain't in Nevada, it ain't in Iowa, and it ain't in ATL.

I hope Wegmans keeps a hefty reserve for construction. I have to think their spired store design will be 'out' in a couple of years. This mish-mash of styles is mind-blowing. Design by committee?

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9986/bildeey.jpg


http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110517/NEWS01/110517005/Wegmans-Timeline-East-Ave-project-delayed-until-least-2013?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

There hasn't been a barn with weathervane built on East Avenue since the 19th century, but evidently Wegmans must think that style evokes urban shopping in the 21st century. The clock tower is even more ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I shop at East Ave Wegmans all the time, and am looking forward to a larger store with more options, but why Wegmans refuses to develop an appropriate urban model like Whole Foods and Trader Joes is beyond me.

and it ain't in ATL.

If it ain't in Atlanta then it surely ain't in Rochester, Atlanta ranks in the top 30, number 27 actually for tech opportunities. ATL ranks tenth in the nation in the number of tech jobs with 126,672 that is about five times as many as the 5 county Rochester area. The only NY community in the top 30 is Albany.

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/08/06/0623_tech_friendly/35.htm

"Tech" is now synonymous with "telecom"? How simplistic is your mind? Rochester's prowess in telecom is related to its global dominance in the field of optics. And that is an indisputable fact no matter how out of touch you are.

Go to Careerbuilder.com and search for telecom jobs.

Type in some city names. The number of telecom jobs in the Rochester area, compared to other cities, is proportionate to its population: small.

See how I predicted that ManAboutTown would resort to insults? There are other things that drive telecom companies other than knowledge in optics, like access to venture capital and proximity to large centers of population. NYC, Chicago, Dallas, Atlanta...

Regarding Wegmans Design:
Wegmans has a great product, perhaps the best of its kind in the US. It is unfortunate that the quality of the architecture of its stores doesn't relect the quality of the product.

Regarding an Urban Model for Wegmans:
Eventually even Wegmans will need to join the 21st Century and embrace a more dense, more efficient, multi-story, urban infill model of a store. Many other supermarket chains have been doing so for years. Even Walmart is now rolling out an urban model. However, as long as there is not the financial pressure to do so, we will probably continue to see the suburban sprawl, bix box prototype.

Having said that:
I believe that this exercise with the East Avenue store, although it may be painful to some, is a step in the right direction for Wegmans. It would have been nice if they could have kept the facades of the original East Ave buildings and built the new store behind. The variety of facades could have reflected the various internal departments (bakery, flower shop, produce, sushi/fish-monger, etc).

All in all I think that the process of give-and-take between Wegmans, the City, and the neighborhood, will ultimately result in a better result than if Wegmans came in and was just granted carte blanche.

"Tech" is now synonymous with "telecom"? How simplistic is your mind? Rochester's prowess in telecom is related to its global dominance in the field of optics. And that is an indisputable fact no matter how out of touch you are.Hey sparky if you clicl on the link I provided above you would see that it states Atlanta's dominant tech sector IS TELECOM !

Hey sparky if you clicl on the link I provided above you would see that it states Atlanta's dominant tech sector IS TELECOM !

It's not only Atlanta or Rochester that have telecom services as their biggest high tech sector. So do these cities:

Denver - Biggest (high tech) sector: telecommunications services.

Dallas-Fort Worth

Nashville

Kansas City, Mo., and Kansas City, Kan.

Oklahoma City

Miami-Fort Lauderdale

Tampa-St. Petersburg

Orlando

San Antonio

San Juan, Puerto Rico

Sacramento

No doubt ManAboutTown's response will be an expletive or some kind of slam against the other cities mentioned, thereby deflecting from the topic and from the truth of the matter. A big (or small) telecom company could snap up Earthlink (or PAETEC for that matter) and whisk away their headquarters to their own home turf. Let the bedwetting ensue!

Transit Authority breaks ground on $26M campus overhaul
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110526/NEWS01/110526018/Transit-Authority-breaks-ground-26M-campus-overhaul?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

has anyone heard if this project before?
http://www.roccitypark.org/

I've heard about the skate park. The concept was spearheaded by a local group, and they have been promoting it for the last couple years in order to get interest in funding and support. Interesting to see that the City has placed it on their list of capitol improvements. I think it's a good idea, and it will provide a place for kids to use their skateboards other than places like Washington Square Park and Manhatthan Square Park which are not designed for that. I just don't know how the City will be able to prioritize funds for this project in a few years, when the Mayor's office is recommending postponing so many projects that are already slated for capitol improvments.

I was looking at the location the skate park would be on Google maps. I noticed that there are 2 ramps from South Ave downtown to 490 East. Does anyone know the story behind this and why they would waste space on 2 ramps that do the same thing?http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9431/messu.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/messu.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Yes, there are redundant ramps at South Avenue, both which access 490 east. The reason for the redundancy is due to a larger plan for connecting the outer loop with downtown. Essentially there were plans for an Inner Loop (which was built) and an Outer Loop comprised of 590, 390, and 104 (most of which was built except 104 never became a highway between 390 and the river). I-490 connects these two loops via its east-west course through the City, and there were plans for a north-south cross access highway that was never built. Thank God! This highway would have essentially run along what is Clinton Avenue between downtown and I-590. The redundant ramp at South Avenue was constructed to connect into that unbuilt highway along Clinton Avenue. The plan would have essentially devestated the Swillburg neighborhood.

There has been talk of retiring the reduntant ramp that runs in front of Capron Street in order to convert South Avenue back to two-way circulation.

Page 72 of the Master Plan for Erie Harbor Park discusses the concept to close the redundant ramp for two-way street conversion. The Master Plan can be downloaded here: http://www.cityofrochester.gov/article.aspx?id=8589947272

Erie Harbor Park would occupy the unused land north of where the skate park is being proposed, and south of where Dinosaur Barbeque is located.

Many larger, younger cities have built inner and outer loops, and because they were younger, didn't have to displace many/any neighborhoods in order to build their outer loops.

In contrast, Rochester's growth stalled out, or otherwise didn't meet projections, by the time they planned on finally breaking ground to build the Outer Loop, so it never came to pass.

The region's growth certainly didn't stall out, but no question that population growth within the City did. The outer loop was essentially completed with the exception of the Clinton Avenue leg and the segment along 104 between I-390 and the Genesee River. I for one am glad that we dodged that bullet. An expressway ripping through the South Clinton Avenue corridor in order to "whisk" people into downtown would have been a catastrophe.

The region's growth certainly didn't stall out, but no question that population growth within the City did. The outer loop was essentially completed with the exception of the Clinton Avenue leg and the segment along 104 between I-390 and the Genesee River. I for one am glad that we dodged that bullet. An expressway ripping through the South Clinton Avenue corridor in order to "whisk" people into downtown would have been a catastrophe.

Historical populations
Year Pop. %±
1812* 15 —
1820 1,502 9913.3%
1830 9,207 513.0%
1840 20,191 119.3%
1850 36,403 80.3%
1860 48,204 32.4%
1870 62,386 29.4%
1880 89,366 43.2%
1890 133,896 49.8%
1900 162,608 21.4%
1910 218,149 34.2%
1920 295,750 35.6%
1930 328,132 10.9%
1940 324,975 −1.0%
1950 332,488 2.3%
1960 318,611 −4.2%
1970 296,233 −7.0%
1980 241,741 −18.4%
1990 231,636 −4.2%
2000 219,773 −5.1%
2010 210,565 −4.2%

Yup - like you said - the city's population stalled around the time they planned and started to build the Inner Loop in the early 50s. By the time it was finished in the mid-60s, the drop in the city's population was obvious enough to convince planners that an outer loop wasn't necessary or worthwhile.

And as I stated, newer cities (ones that blossomed after Rochester peaked), didn't have to demolish much/any of the developments in their outer areas in order to accommodate an outer loop. That is because the loops were planned to be further out from city limits and the outer areas were still undeveloped enough to not have to require the demolition of anything. So the end result is that these younger cities don't have a outer loop freeway that segregates older neighborhoods from one another so badly, or are as near to the city core as Rochester's freeway is.

Well we do have an outer loop. That's what I-390 and I-590 are, and both were built along alignments that did not require the demolition of existing structures, as both highways essentially ringed the outermost boundaries of the inner suburbs. Over the last 30 years sprawl has pushed well beyond the limits of our outer loop, so Rochester isn't that different from the newer cities that you describe. One just needs to look at it from a regional growth persective, as opposed to just the City proper.

about time someone posted somthing.
Developer Breaks Ground On North Plymouth Terrace Project

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/547477/developer-breaks-ground-on-north-plymouth-terrace-project/

With this, Josh Lofton, and the Nothnagle HQ, its good to see downtown on the West side of the Genesee River getting some development attention. Its easy to forget about the West side with Midtown on the East side being the primary development topic downtown. Overall i'm glad to see developers are spreading the love to all parts of downtown not just the Midtown area.

Add the renovation of 44 Exchange Boulevard to the list of westside development within the loop.

"Tech" is now synonymous with "telecom"? How simplistic is your mind? Rochester's prowess in telecom is related to its global dominance in the field of optics. And that is an indisputable fact no matter how out of touch you are.

The main reason why telecom ranks so high in Rochester is due to Corning being the largest producer of fiber Optic cables. I would argue that India is home to the worlds largest telecom markets. tech is not the same as telecom, telecom cannot exsist without tech, not the other way around. There are still massive tech markets out there that have nothing to do with communication.

According to this website - http://www.rochesterbiz.com/Business/Regional/Industry/Telecommunications.aspx you rank 5th in the U.S for telecommunications. Still a good position to be in.

Add the renovation of 44 Exchange Boulevard to the list of westside development within the loop.'
I forgot about that one. Its cool to see that not only old buildings are being renovated like the Lincon Alliance Building, Nothnagle, etc, but also surface lots are also being developed like Plymouth Terrace and the ESL HQ. Overall I think this new/old mixed type of developments will come together to create a city that looks newer but at the same time keeps alot of its old architectural history. Not to mention that replacing surface parking with development downtown is great because it makes a denser and more walkable area.

376 Metro Areas ranked by percentage of 18-34 year olds with Bachelors Degree or higher - NY State metros ranked as follows:

8) Ithaca 33.71% raw number with degrees 13,952

10) NYC Metro 32.67% #1,432,869

28) Albany 28.32% #56,308

39) Buffalo 26.21% #64,166

63) Syracuse 23.94% #35,652

80) Rochester 22.67% #52,676

92) Binghamton 22.04% #12,294

171) Utica 17.55% #10,771

Don't you have to be at least 19 or 20 to have a bachelor's degree? lol

Or no, make that 21 or 22.

Don't you have to be at least 19 or 20 to have a bachelor's degree? lol

Or no, make that 21 or 22.

I think that is generally correct, however the Federal government bases its statistics on their demographic group that they use for a plethora of data including college education and that group is ages 18-34. As long as they use the same age criteria for all 376 metro areas their findings are statisitcally valid. If they made the age group 21-34 Rochester would no majically jump up from the 80's into the top 10 as the percentages for all of the other metro's would go up too.

I think that is generally correct, however the Federal government bases its statistics on their demographic group that they use for a plethora of data including college education and that group is ages 18-34. As long as they use the same age criteria for all 376 metro areas their findings are statisitcally valid. If they made the age group 21-34 Rochester would no majically jump up from the 80's into the top 10 as the percentages for all of the other metro's would go up too.


Interesting that metro Buffalo ranks higher than Rochester on the college degree lists.

Most folks in both metros would probably assume it was the other way around!

I'm guessing it has something to do with the mostly rural counties included in the Rochester metro?

Interesting that metro Buffalo ranks higher than Rochester on the college degree lists.

Most folks in both metros would probably assume it was the other way around!

I'm guessing it has something to do with the mostly rural counties included in the Rochester metro?

I would assume it was the overall hugeness of UB. Assuming that equal proportions of students stay put in each city following their graduation from college, does anyone know what is bigger: the total enrollment of all the four-year colleges in the Rochester area (RIT + UR + Fisher + Nazareth + Brockport + Wesleyan + Geneseo, etc.) or the Buffalo area (UB + Buff State + Daemen + D'Youville + Canisius + Medaille, etc.)? How about also including Niagara University and/or even St. Bonaventure into the latter total?

I would assume it was the overall hugeness of UB. Assuming that equal proportions of students stay put in each city following their graduation from college, does anyone know what is bigger: the total enrollment of all the four-year colleges in the Rochester area (RIT + UR + Fisher + Nazareth + Brockport + Wesleyan + Geneseo, etc.) or the Buffalo area (UB + Buff State + Daemen + D'Youville + Canisius + Medaille, etc.)? How about also including Niagara University and/or even St. Bonaventure into the latter total?

the total enrollment in Buffalo area 4 year colleges is around 75,000

Forbes had a nice mini blurb on Rochester employment....I guess 97% of all jobs in Rochester are small businesses (100 or less employees). Would not have guessed that...but there you go!

According to the article, 60% of jobs in the area were Kodak, Xerox or Bausch and Lomb 25 years ago. Now they account for only 6%. The article states that education level of the workforce and quality of life kept the people in the area during the closings, and they either started small businesses or attached to small companies so they could stay in town.

Good positive press....hopefully things continue to look up. Employment numbers year over year have been huge lately....so all good signs!

^Good news!!

Also, since this forum is dead I suppose I'll do the honors of posting weeks old news...

Mayor Richards, Developer Break Ground on North Plymouth Terrace Project Downtown
Mayor Thomas S. Richards and City Councilmembers Carolee Conklin and Dana Miller joined developer John “Dutch” Summers and Project Manager and architect Steven Trobe today to celebrate the start of construction of North Plymouth Terrace, a new townhome development on the west side of downtown at the corner of North Plymouth Avenue and West Main Street......
http://www.cityofrochester.gov/article.aspx?id=8589948696

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011107090341
Sounds of progress return on south end of Genesee River
What once was a bland, in some places forgotten stretch of the Genesee River south of downtown has come alive with new developments in the past decade, and more projects are under way or on the way.

Corn Hill Landing, the Ford Street bridge, Bausch & Lomb Park and a new Staybridge Suites hotel at Brooks Landing have reshaped the area. Cruise the river stretch this summer and you will see construction of Erie Harbor apartments, float beneath the ELRR pedestrian bridge conversion, pass the old Vacuum Oil site and on to Genesee Valley Park — the latter two of which are or will be the focus of intensive planning efforts.

What has been dubbed the south river corridor, or Erie Harbor Basin, is home to more than $250 million in developments completed, begun or planned, according to city estimates from the year 2000 to present. The total is an almost even split between public and private investment, favoring private dollars.

Erie Harbor apartments, on the east riverbank, is replacing what had become a mostly vacant River Park Commons. Developers hope to complete 64 units this year and 67 more by April 2012, replacing the former complex that walled off the Genesee River from Mt. Hope Boulevard and the South Wedge neighborhood for more than 30 years. The old River Park Commons was razed in 2009.

Farther south, the former ELRR railroad bridge is being remade into a pedestrian crossing, linking the University of Rochester to Riverview Apartments, another of the recent additions along the river corridor.

A state-funded study and land-use planning effort is ongoing for the former Vacuum Oil site, at the end of Flint Street on the west bank.

Public sessions, getting input on what should happen with the property, could begin in late August or September, resulting in plan by sometime in mid- to late 2012. This fall, the city plans to launch into a master plan study for the west half of Genesee Valley Park.

The University of Rochester continues to expand, opening a new biomedical engineering building in 2007, and with a new home for the Warner School of Education currently under construction.

Across the river, the next phase of Brooks Landing construction envisions student housing atop a ground-floor restaurant opening by fall of 2013.

Sounding pretty good!

Brookings Institute's long awaited study ranking the top 100 metro's in terms of the aggregate 'clean economy' was released today. Albany finished #14 out of the 100 largest metros for the aggregate number employed in clean or "Green" industries, Buffalo came in at #37, Syracuse at #55 with Rochester picking up the rear at #61.

http://www.brookings.edu/metro/Clean...=1&z=0&x=0&y=0

Paetec Tower progress pictures anyone?

What's that? Ah -- Pictures? Don't talk about -- pictures?! You kidding me?! Pictures?! I just hope we can keep Paetec in Rochester!! Anywhere in Rochester!!

http://www.rbj.net/article.asp?aID=188321

Paetec Tower progress pictures anyone?

Ha... Paetec won't even exist after the merger... the name and the CEO are getting ditched... Why would an Arkansas based company buying a smaller asset put their headquarters here?

But... but... but... ManAboutTown was ADAMANT about Rochester being the center of the telecom universe!

Surely Windstream will move its HQ to Rochester and not continue to be headquartered in (cough) Arkansas, right? Right? RIGHT?????

What a naïve imbecile...

LOL

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/opinion/sunday/one-path-to-better-jobs-more-density-in-cities.html

Rochester City Council panel OKs filling in part of Inner Loop
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110909/NEWS01/109090334/City-Council-panel-OKs-filling-part-Inner-Loop?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

A serious improvement for Rochester's East side in walk-ability, aesthetics, and development future

http://www.rbj.net/article.asp?aID=188899

I think that with some carefully planned selective demolition of the lower structures, Kodak Tower could be quite the nice residential tower.

I agree it would be a great building for that. Especially now after the face lift they gave the building. But would there really be any demand for that many units (it is a large building)?

On a different note, I have brought up the subject of public schools on this forum before with little to no reply. I think it is mainly because people feel that education has little to do with development, but I disagree. Take a look at this article, http://www.planetizen.com/node/51573

I dont want to make this a discussion about how to remedy the Rochester city schools (although feel free to offer up ideas, this thread is just about dead anyways). I just want to get people's thoughts on whether or not they feel that the low performance of the Rochester city schools has hindered the development of Rochester as a city in general? And (taking the positive approach) do you think that improving the city schools would spur growth?

I say yes to both. Anyone else want to weigh in?

EVERY U.S. city has a urban core with horrific education results....its nothing to do with the school system...it has to do with vast social and economic problems unique to the very poor.

...But I am quite optimistic about Rochester's economy going forward. Its nothing Rochester did over the last few years....it is more like economic LUCK. Sure we were unlucky when we lost sooooooo many Manufacturing jobs over the last several decades ....due mostly to super low wage rates in Asia and other third nations. We were unlucky in that at one time we lead the nation is the percentage of MFG jobs...so when mfg jobs went overseas....our economy collapsed and we lost a vast chunk of residents as they left for better opportunities in the Sunbelt. As the sunbelt grew...jobs grew. As our population lost people....we lost jobs.

Now things have changed....we are creating more jobs than most areas of the country. Most of the Sunbelt has substantially higher rates of unemployment. So the gravy train for the sunbelt has ended. And less metro Rochester residents will move there. As more people stay here...more jobs will be created here.

Again....I am quite optimistic about Rochester....we finally got LUCKY....and I hope this luck last!

RTC - I'm not sure I follow your logic. If EVERY urban core has poor education results due to the social and economic problems of the poor, then what about those urban cores that have experienced a revitalization? Shouldn't they be producing better education results?

DC-07.....typically single people and empty nesters are the core of people that populate revitalized cities throughout the U.S. Thus the stats on School districts are not effected

I don't know what point you are trying to make. Poor education results has little to do with the "quality of education"...it has to do with the social/economic makeup of poor people who gravitate to cities because of weak economies of those cities...housing is very cheap...etc.

There are so many variable as to why some cities are successful attracting new people...more affluent people. I just don't think the education system of a city is an important variable. People who move into cities ...that gentrify a neighborhood or a downtown district are not looking at the quality of a city school district...they are looking for historic homes, security, quality of parks/recreation...proximity to entertainment/retail/restaurants/museums/professional sports facilities, proximity to dynamic downtown's...etc. Probably the most important variable is the economic prospects of a city/region...growth of population/income/jobs. In the city of Rochester/metro region it has been very poor. But as I stated before...the economic prospect are looking up!

The point is that the largest demographic in Rochester and throughout the country is households with school age children. And to that demographic schools are extremely important.

It seems that You are of the opinion that poor schools don't matter when it comes to revitalizing a city, and that's fine. I am of the opinion that yes it does matter because by not addressing the problem you are disincentivizing (if that's a word) a huge demographic from coming to the city. Anyone else with an opinion?

Curtain rises on new Port of Rochester plans

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111007/NEWS01/110070355/Curtain-rises-new-Port-Rochester-plans?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

http://cmsimg.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Site=A2&Date=20111007&Category=MULTIMEDIA03&ArtNo=1007005&Ref=PH&Item=3&Maxw=640&Maxh=410&q=60

Is that retail at street level? If it is then this project will be a nice addition.

Does anyone really believe that there is a market for high end, high density condos at Charlotte?...hundreds of them?

No such market exists in the region? ...not downtown....not Pittsford...not Webster...etc. It doesn't exist and I doubt if private sector financing would be available for such a speculative development....or even individual mortgages.

And good luck on street side retail. With only a couple hundred condos...if they ever get built ...could not sustain any retail business other than a coffee shop!

Again...hundreds of high end, high density condos on Lake Ave. at CHarlotte? NO WAY!!!

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/559705/tenants-move-into-erie-harbor-next-month/

YNN cable news had a story on the Erie Harbor housing project on Mt. Hope Ave. New tenants move in next month.

Posted just yesterday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wKXMUT1ngI#!


Posted earlier this week:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf0lRVVgIJs

Miami- I could not disagree more. Maybe Midtown used to be a dense commercial development, but anyone who had walked through there within the past ten years would tell you that it was practically empty.

The block was also way oversized for being in downtown. Chopping up this megablock into smaller blocks creates more street space and more corners, which means more prime real estate.

The tearing down of the skyways was a great idea too. Skyways are pedestrian traffic killers. They create an alternative to walking on the street which downtown does not need. Downtown needs more street activity so removing the skyways is perfect.

I know the paetec deal is a bit of a mess but ultimately I think this midtown project will be good for the city.

I find the demolishing of buildings with the hope that something will come along quite disheartening.
I don't know how many times Buffalo has done something like that with little success.
Yes, the street grid was repaired but without any set development in place, you'll have a lot of open space that may sit there for years until the city is desperate to give it away to the first developer with a silver bullet project rolls into town.

I find the Paetec HQ to be totally out of place with the rest of the area. Too suburban for an area meant to be the core of the city.

I think downtown Rochester is desperate for a "permanent" high end park. The midtown site offers a generation opportunity to build such a park...allowing building sites adjacent to the park for future development when the market improves.... possibly a casino or an performing arts center. Green can attract green if the park is high quality and sufficient in size.

Right now plans indicate a small park in dead center with several new roads that will see very little vehicle traffic. I see this as very problematic and unimaginative. Midtown needs some exciting/dynamic...what is being planned is extremely plain/boring ...little to entice future development.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111014/BUSINESS/110140352/Trader-Joe-s-grocery-chain-will-open-store-Pittsford-Plaza?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for increased competition among firms, and I think it will benefit the consumer, and create a handful of jobs....but part of me really wants to see Wegmans pound Trader Joe's, just so I can rub it in all my misguided friends who claim that Trader Joe's is superior. I live right near one down in NYC, and everytime I go in there I think how much nicer my life would be if I were in a Wegmans instead (let alone the flagship Wegmans).

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111014/BUSINESS/110140352/Trader-Joe-s-grocery-chain-will-open-store-Pittsford-Plaza?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for increased competition among firms, and I think it will benefit the consumer, and create a handful of jobs....but part of me really wants to see Wegmans pound Trader Joe's, just so I can rub it in all my misguided friends who claim that Trader Joe's is superior. I live right near one down in NYC, and everytime I go in there I think how much nicer my life would be if I were in a Wegmans instead (let alone the flagship Wegmans).

Why don't you argue which one is better: a drag racer or a dump truck? After all, they're both vehicles, right?

Depends on what you want to do with it. Carry gravel? Then gee... how does that drag racer look?

I don't follow. You can't really haul gravel with a drag racer, and you can't race with a dump truck (save for people in the deep south). You can, however, buy a wide range of groceries at both Wegmans and Trader Joe's.

In my humble opinion, Trader Joe's has managed to succeed in NYC by being marginally better than their competitors (which isn't difficult down here), and in doing so have managed to gain cult-like following of fanatics who simply don't know any better, and will jump down your throat at the mere suggestion that a better alterative might exist somewhere else in country. I also find it slightly pretentious that they only sell Trader Joe's brand items. Regardless, It will be very interesting to see on what levels Trader Joe's is able to compete with Wegmans on. I'm excited about this showdown.

Also, I recognize that TJ's built its brand in a different setting that Wegmans (urban vs. suburban), and has to run its business differently. None the less, I simply cannot accept that they are anything special, especially after seeing Fairway's interpretation of an urban grocery store.

I don't follow. You can't really haul gravel with a drag racer, and you can't race with a dump truck (save for people in the deep south). You can, however, buy a wide range of groceries at both Wegmans and Trader Joe's.

In my humble opinion, Trader Joe's has managed to succeed in NYC by being marginally better than their competitors (which isn't difficult down here), and in doing so have managed to gain cult-like following of fanatics who simply don't know any better, and will jump down your throat at the mere suggestion that a better alterative might exist somewhere else in country. I also find it slightly pretentious that they only sell Trader Joe's brand items. Regardless, It will be very interesting to see on what levels Trader Joe's is able to compete with Wegmans on. I'm excited about this showdown.

Also, I recognize that TJ's built its brand in a different setting that Wegmans (urban vs. suburban), and has to run its business differently. None the less, I simply cannot accept that they are anything special, especially after seeing Fairway's interpretation of an urban grocery store.

RMoses - I am not sure of your analysis of urban vs suburban for TJ/Wegmans. Most of the TJs I have seen countrywide are in the suburbs. There is a fine collection of them down here on Long Island and one more is opening up in Westbury soon near Roosevelt Field. Plus, it is a huge generalization to say that the clientele in NYC "dont know any better". I think we are pretty hip down here in deciding what is good and what isnt. I am not saying TJ is great, but I really like it and would go out of my way to shop there. There are a lot of alternatives down here that are also good and it seems that all these types of stores appear to be doing fine.

I am pretty sure that both the Wegmans and the TJ in Pittsford will thrive as there is definitely a lot of money up there in the Eastern Rochester suburbs and each will have its own following.

I don't follow. You can't really haul gravel with a drag racer, and you can't race with a dump truck (snip).

Sure you can, and that's my point. Trader Joe's is about a 14,000 sq. ft. store, while Wegmans builds in the 100,000 ft. range. There are some similarities between the two, but they're going after different segments of the market. Not only will they coexist, but both will thrive. To think one will (or should) somehow crush the other is just plain silly - does one say the same thing about John Deere taking on Porsche?

Wow, that is so sad. Rochester actually had a dense midtown development, a mall with three urban skybridges connecting it to the surrounding buildings. The economy is leaving, the population is going down, its a dying city. Its idea of "redevelopment" is to destroy something and replace it with something smaller and less integrated with the cityacape. Actually after watching the whole thing its not that bad. Parks seem to be all the rage right now, however, is there even enough people in downtown to utilize and support a nice park, PAC, and anything else they are planning. What does parking cost per hour in the city, streetside and in a garage?

Rochester seems to have an issue with being urban. It's such a decentralized city it bugs me. Most other cities in the US have dense, walkable, urban cores. I go to cities as small as Savannah, GA or Hartford, CT and find that they have much more urbanity than my hometown, it's a shame really. In Downtown Rochester there's a plethora of empty parking lots, suburban office park-style buildings in the SE quarter (ESL, Alexander Park), overly wide streets and of course the largest urban vacant lot in the United States. Time to rethink your planning, Rochester.

Sutherland Global Services gets tax breaks as it plans to add 450 local workers

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111018/BUSINESS/111018015/Sutherland-Global-Services-gets-tax-breaks-plans-add-450-local-workers?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

Boundary Fence is setting up shop in Gates

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111018/BUSINESS/110180315/Boundary-Fence-setting-up-shop-Gates?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Home|s

not really development news but still good news for the region


EDIT: from the D&C on 10/20/11

New report shows Rochester area leading state in job growth
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111020/BUSINESS/111020018/New-report-shows-Rochester-area-leading-state-job-growth?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

Rochester seems to have an issue with being urban. It's such a decentralized city it bugs me. Most other cities in the US have dense, walkable, urban cores. I go to cities as small as Savannah, GA or Hartford, CT and find that they have much more urbanity than my hometown, it's a shame really. In Downtown Rochester there's a plethora of empty parking lots, suburban office park-style buildings in the SE quarter (ESL, Alexander Park), overly wide streets and of course the largest urban vacant lot in the United States. Time to rethink your planning, Rochester.

Yeah. But in that regard, Rochester's probably not much different than the other major upstate cities.

Yeah. But in that regard, Rochester's probably not much different than the other major upstate cities.

Right. In other words, dying.

Right. In other words, dying.

By no means.

I realize there's lots of legitimate angst in Rochester, particularly re: Kodak & its troubles. Going from 70k jobs in Rochester to about 7k total, etc.

But consider that Rochester's seen steady metropolitan since the 1980s. By contrast, Buffalo has seen steady metro loss since 1970.

And while Roch like many older Northeast cities has suffered city population loss, in recent decades Roch's city loss rate has been about half that of metro Buffalo.

While Roch isn't the same city that it was when Kodak & Xerox were booming, Rochester's relatively stable population & economic status translates into significant opportunities to plan & create a more vibrant downtown.

In other words: "We're not as crappy as Buffalo - woo-hoo!"

That's like the second-to-last runner in a race comparing himself to the guy who's last.

In other words: "We're not as crappy as Buffalo - woo-hoo!"

That's like the second-to-last runner in a race comparing himself to the guy who's last.

:lol: Well Stated - of course there was one month in the early 2000's where according to NY State Department of Labor Rochester had 2,000 more people employed than Buffalo. It made the front page of the Buffalo News. Now Buffalo leads the employment derby by over 40,000 positions - so I am not sure which city is in last place - might be a photo finish.

In other words: "We're not as crappy as Buffalo - woo-hoo!"

That's like the second-to-last runner in a race comparing himself to the guy who's last.

Just curious, to all the people throwing stones at rochester, do you live in Rochester?

Just curious, to all the people throwing stones at rochester, do you live in Rochester?

Most likely. People from Rochester are notorious for being pissy, it's quite annoying actually. All they do is complain.

Maybe it's the cold... :ohno:

BRRRRRRRRRRRR it sure is cold here today

Just curious, to all the people throwing stones at rochester, do you live in Rochester?

Why would it matter either way?

By the way, is it really "throwing stones", or looking at things objectively?

Call it whatever you want. And the point is if you (or anyone else for that matter) lives in Rochester but really hates it that much...leave

Call it whatever you want. And the point is if you (or anyone else for that matter) lives in Rochester but really hates it that much...leave

So what's your message for people who don't live in Rochester, then?

No doubt, whatever your message is should be interesting. Apparently no one is allowed to criticize.

People that fear critcism the most are those that know the criticism is justified. They are just hoping no one else sees the flaws they know are there.

I think there is room for both criticism and optimism for Rochester. Many people just spend 100% of their time trashing Rochester….while others just look for any positive event and exaggerate its economic value to our region. I have always been a strong critic of Rochester’s Leadership in selecting the wrong strategies and wrong public projects that have impeded our growth in the region and embarrassed our community. But my intentions was to improve Rochester or metro region…not to demean it.

As I have stated recently….I really see optimistic opportunity for Rochester…probably the best economic environment in decades. But it is NOT because of great leadership or the right strategy…it is because of pure LUCK. Our region did not participate in the massive housing bubble…thus when the Great Recession occurred…our fall was rather slight compared to the rest of the nation…especially the Sunbelt region. Now the flow of people from the North to the south has been drastically curtailed….and this has and will show up in more jobs in our region…and more internal growth without the mass outmigration out of our region.

But our region still lacks leadership and the right economic strategy….and I will continue to be a critic until this changes. We have finally achieved potential opportunity for growth in our region…and its time now to celebrate it and work hard to ensure its long lasting.

My message to ANYone would be that Rochester is a great place to live, especially if you have a family. It definitely has its flaws and there is plenty of room for improvement, but there is a lot to be optimistic about lately. I agree with RTC that much luck definitely has something to do with Rochester's current economic positioning, and there is nothing wrong with that. We just need to capitalize on it, and that takes good leadership, which is lacking in Rochester (again agreeing with RTC).

I'm sure someone on this thread will twist around some of my language to make some point that ultimately doesnt matter. So to avoid an ongoing trolling session I'm going to propose an actual in-person dialogue.

It will be a much more efficient than this thread and face to face conversation is always better than text. And if we get some turnout we can even turn this into a Meetup group.

SO, I will be at SPOT coffee on East ave on Friday at 1pm (if Thursday works better someone let me know cause we can do it then too). Whos in? Feel free to RSVP on the thread or private message me on here.

SO, I will be at SPOT coffee on East ave on Friday at 1pm (if Thursday works better someone let me know cause we can do it then too). Whos in? Feel free to RSVP on the thread or private message me on here.

I guess people in the Rochester area who like to talk about development must not have jobs, or at least ones which require their presence, if they can just meet in the middle of a workday. Says something about the area's economy, eh?

Just in case you haven't seen it, here's a newly-released report. Rather elite, but still has lots of interesting stuff re: the upstate metros. BTW, Albany & Rochester fair comparatively well in their analysis. You should be able to download it.

EFFECTS OF GLOBALIZATION MUTED IN REGION
ERIC ANDERSON. Times Union. Albany, N.Y.: Oct 27, 2011. pg. C.1

The scientific research and development services sector of the local workforce, meanwhile, has expanded to 9,185 jobs, more than twice as many as there are in the much larger Buffalo metro area.

(All Times Union materials Copyright (c) 2011 Times Union (Albany, N.Y.) a division of The Hearst Corporation, Albany, N.Y.)

ALBANY -- Upstate cities heavily dependent on manufacturing felt the impact of globalization far more than the Capital Region, according to a study released Wednesday by the State University of New York's Levin Institute in Manhattan.

The study, conducted by the Center for an Urban Future, examined how an increasingly globalized marketplace affected jobs, industries and population growth.

It found that the Capital Region and Rochester both fared better than the other four upstate metros it studied -- Buffalo, Syracuse, Binghamton and Utica-Rome -- in large part because of their strong academic research institutions, which they've leveraged to build their technology sectors.

"Albany-Schenectady-Troy enjoys the stabilizing economic benefits of the state capital workforce," the report said. "But the region is also building a substantial, globally competitive research and advanced manufacturing sector."

Still, no Capital Region universities are in the top rankings of schools attracting international students. New York University ranks third nationally in the number of international students enrolled, while Columbia is fifth, SUNY Buffalo 12th and Cornell 22nd.

Manufacturing was perhaps the hardest hit sector from globalization. The report says 27,000 people were employed making turbines and generators in Schenectady for General Electric Co. in the 1970s. That number has declined significantly, although GE has added new manufacturing plants that produce digital imaging equipment for mammograms, and advanced batteries.

What remains of manufacturing here is largely export-oriented. Ninety percent of GE's Schenectady-built turbines are exported the report says, and the new GlobalFoundries plant in Malta is expected to export much of its output.

The scientific research and development services sector of the local workforce, meanwhile, has expanded to 9,185 jobs, more than twice as many as there are in the much larger Buffalo metro area.

One recent study, the report says, found 21,274 high-tech jobs in the Capital Region with an average salary of $78,000.

The report, "New York and the World," will be the focus of several forums to be held across the state in November and December. The Albany forum will be held Nov. 4 at the Nelson A. Rockefeller Institute of Government.

The Bon-Ton is bowing out of Rochester with plans to sell three stores in that market for $13.25 million.

The buyer of the retail outlets is Wilmorite Management Group, which owns the three malls where the stores are located.

The Bon-Ton Inc. said the sales and subsequent closings of the Greece Ridge Center and the Eastview Mall locations are scheduled for March 2012. The sale of the Marketplace Mall location is slated for completion by March 2014. The three stores combined have just under 200 workers.

“The company continually reviews the performance of its assets; as a result of these reviews, we made the decision to pursue the sale of the aforementioned stores,” said a statement from Bud Bergren, president and CEO.

Eastman Kodak Co. expected 2011 to be a bad year, but not this bad, as the Rochester-based photo and imaging company now is expecting sizably bigger losses for the year than previously forecast.

Kodak announced its latest quarterly earnings today. And it was yet another quarter of declining sales and red ink. For the three months ending Sept. 30, Kodak had total revenues of $1.46 billion — off 17 percent from the same quarter a year ago. And after expenses, Kodak had a loss of $222 million, more than five times the loss it saw the same quarter a year ago.

:ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno:







The demise will put a lot of people and commercial/industrial space on the market - fer sure.

I guess people in the Rochester area who like to talk about development must not have jobs, or at least ones which require their presence, if they can just meet in the middle of a workday. Says something about the area's economy, eh?

A simple "cant make it" would suffice.

Even though no one has said they would be there, I will still be at the SPOT Coffee downtown at 1pm tomorrow in case anyone decides to show up. I will be in the upstairs part.

ALSO, I will be there Saturday at 10am too...you know...for those of you that are employed :) Some in person discussion would be great. Let me know if you can make it. See you there ROCrot!

In case anyone is actually coming I'm sitting downstairs near the divide

The local economy must be great since no one could make it to the spot today at 1pm. I will be there tomorrow (Saturday) at 10am as well. I will be sure to be in the upstairs part this time. Hope to see someone there

The local economy must be great since no one could make it to the spot today at 1pm. I will be there tomorrow (Saturday) at 10am as well. I will be sure to be in the upstairs part this time. Hope to see someone therePick a time when Dollar Tree is closed then the local workers can join you

The local economy must be great since no one could make it to the spot today at 1pm. I will be there tomorrow (Saturday) at 10am as well. I will be sure to be in the upstairs part this time. Hope to see someone there

This forum is dead. I'd be surprised if anyone other than the people who posted this last week had even read you were going to be there. If you want to actually reach other Rochesterians, start posting on City-Data.

so again i am here at spot coffee...this time during non-traditional work hours...but still looks like no one could make it. if anyone on this thread wants to have an in-person discussion about Rochester development matters just let me know

and thanks for the heads up 585. this thread is dead....officially taking it off my favorites bar

This forum is dead. I'd be surprised if anyone other than the people who posted this last week had even read you were going to be there. If you want to actually reach other Rochesterians, start posting on City-Data.

Actually, if you want to reach other Rochesterians, try the nearest doctor's office.

That's where a lot of elderly people seem to be on a regular basis, and they also account for most of the road traffic (rather than those who would be commuting to a job).

Not only is Rochester dying on its own account, so is its aging populace!

I may not be from Rochester, but I'm still trying to understand what your motivation is by posting gloom and doom about this city. Care to explain ROCrot?
What do you hope to accomplish? With your continuous bashing, having everyone finally realizing that Rochester isn't worth their time and taking part in a mass exodus? Perhaps handing over control of the city to you so you can have daily press conferences about how crappy Rochester seems to you? Do you just want a hug?

http://rocdocs.democratandchronicle.com/story/concentration-poverty

There has been a prevailing view about downtown Rochester. Heavily subsidize new downtown housing and it will generate a catalyst for retail and restaurants and thus a 24-7 environment. I strongly disagreed …since the relatively small numbers and the rather low levels of income for downtown resident cannot support significant stores/restaurants of size and quality….at best a couple coffee shops and sub store. Some even stated that the new housing being constructed over the last decades would significantly raise the income level of downtown residents.

Well …..U.S. Census statistics were recently released about the economic demographics of the average downtown resident….and it’s getting worse…the percentage of poverty level residents living in downtown Rochester has increased from 46% to 55% over the last 10 years! In my mind…the downtown housing strategy is DEAD. It is NOT feasible/cost-effective. With limited public sector funds….one must direct them to projects with the highest economic return. Housing is not one of them.

http://rocdocs.democratandchronicle.com/story/concentration-poverty

There has been a prevailing view about downtown Rochester. Heavily subsidize new downtown housing and it will generate a catalyst for retail and restaurants and thus a 24-7 environment. I strongly disagreed …since the relatively small numbers and the rather low levels of income for downtown resident cannot support significant stores/restaurants of size and quality….at best a couple coffee shops and sub store. Some even stated that the new housing being constructed over the last decades would significantly raise the income level of downtown residents.

Well …..U.S. Census statistics were recently released about the economic demographics of the average downtown resident….and it’s getting worse…the percentage of poverty level residents living in downtown Rochester has increased from 46% to 55% over the last 10 years! In my mind…the downtown housing strategy is DEAD. It is NOT feasible/cost-effective. With limited public sector funds….one must direct them to projects with the highest economic return. Housing is not one of them.

Did you look at the other neighborhoods? An increase in poverty is a national trend.

Von Maur a mid range department store will be taking over the Eastview Bon Ton store site in 2013.

Von Maur opens locations in second and third tier cities: locations include: Omaha, Des Moines, Louisville, Lincoln Nebraska, Moline (quard cities) Illinois, Ft Wayne, Indiana, Wichita, and Dayton Ohio as well as many smaller communities. They seem a lot like Peebles. Only a few of their stores are located in major market cities. They are headquartered in the fashion mecca of Davenport, Iowa although they do not sell sofas.

More on Von Maur here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Maur

From the D&C

Windstream Corp., the company taking over PAETEC Holding Corp., said today it will have a presence at Rochester's Midtown complex, albeit on a smaller scale than was originally proposed.

At a news conference this morning, Mayor Thomas Richards, U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-NY, and Windstream CEO Jeffrey Gardner announced the move.

Windstream will lease 67,000 square feet of office space -- enough for 335 employees. The company will maintain PAETEC's operations in Perinton, officials said.


Windstream will occupy two-thirds of the former Seneca Building under a 15-year lease.

From the D&C

Windstream Corp., the company taking over PAETEC Holding Corp., said today it will have a presence at Rochester's Midtown complex, albeit on a smaller scale than was originally proposed.

At a news conference this morning, Mayor Thomas Richards, U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-NY, and Windstream CEO Jeffrey Gardner announced the move.

Windstream will lease 67,000 square feet of office space -- enough for 335 employees. The company will maintain PAETEC's operations in Perinton, officials said.


Windstream will occupy two-thirds of the former Seneca Building under a 15-year lease.

Well at least we now know something. The HQ will not be built, but we will still get the employees. Now what to do with the other 5 parcels of dirt...?

My vote is to have a large quality park in the center with several perimeter parcels available for private sector development....when the financial markets and commercial development prospects improve. No need to rush some cheap and small building ...just to get some development on the site.

And please...not another heavily subsided apartment building!

Hey, found this YouTube clip of the proposed inner loop fill-in via RochesterSubway. It gives you a very good preview and a more specific idea of what the plan is.

http://youtu.be/C_OUDeKR5FM

also here is a link to the city's "official" page for the project which includes the video linked above

http://www.cityofrochester.gov/InnerLoopEast/

Hey, found this YouTube clip of the proposed inner loop fill-in via RochesterSubway. It gives you a very good preview and a more specific idea of what the plan is.

http://youtu.be/C_OUDeKR5FM

also here is a link to the city's "official" page for the project which includes the video linked above

http://www.cityofrochester.gov/InnerLoopEast/

If this project really results in that great of a streetscape, I will never trash Rochester again for the rest of my life.

If this project really results in that great of a streetscape, I will never trash Rochester again for the rest of my life.

Of course you won't. That's because by the time the streetscape would get around to looking that good, you'll be at least 90-something years old, probably suffering from dementia, and on your deathbed!

Genesee Brewing plans to open bar, restaurant and visitors center by April
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111118/BUSINESS/111118015/Genesee-Brewing-plans-open-bar-restaurant-visitors-center-by-April?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home


Developer Larry Glazer is buying properties to 'spruce up' area near Alexander Park
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111118/BUSINESS/111118014/Developer-Larry-Glazer-buying-properties-spruce-up-area-near-Alexander-Park?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

It's nice to hear some more good development news. I think Glazer has a good plan going for the Alexander Park area.

College Town project at University of Rochester moving along

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/comments/article/20111123/NEWS01/111230339/College-Town-project-University-Rochester-moving-along

As I've said before, I'm torn on this one. I like the concept of having a college town right by U of R, but I've always felt that the Genesse/Brooks/Plymouth area is more logical for a college town. It would be much easier for the UR kids to strap on the vest, and load up the nine and head across the foot bridge to a college town in the 19th Ward than it would be for them to have to walk all the way up to Mt. Hope. It's also kind of curious that UR invested a good deal in the 19th Ward, and is now going all in on the Mt. Hope area. I would have thought that further developing the commercial/retail presence of Brooks Landing would have been the next logical step after building the Riverview Apartments.

I would have thought that further developing the commercial/retail presence of Brooks Landing would have been the next logical step after building the Riverview Apartments.

Couldn't happen at Brooks Landing. Hostile neighborhood (judging from the Christensen public meetings), awful retail performance, lack of consumers with disposable income for prime retail, access isn't great. Won't work for a Fairmount/Gilbane private deal

This project will come together really well. Mt. Hope street improvements, the availability of a huge tract of land next to a massive and expanding employer and heavy traffic corridor, a bunch of existing popular dining choices across the street, lots of students living in closeby off-campus, the zoning changes that happened the other year.

Brooks Landing would make a really nice haven for undergrads, but there are not enough of them to make that a hot area (obviously). I wonder if it will ever happen?

The "U of ROC" CollegeTown proposal looks like it could be sucessful. THe critical mass of quality nearby demographics along with high traffic counts along Elmwood and Mt. Hope should be a benefit to the U or R and the city of Rochester.

A couple suggestions/concerns I have is in regards to the lack of quality "green space"/ open space ...to temper the high density of this development. Also I would hope that the sidewalks along Elmwood and Mt. Hope are much larger than the typical standard size. Allowing room for pedestrians to walk ...for park benches...heavy landscaping and area for outdoor restaurant/cafe space should require a much large sidewalk/public linear space.

...and I would hope all the public amenities within this development exudes ...high quality/unique design. The U or R campus along with hospital and research facilities is and will continue to be our supreme economic engine. Thus the city should encircle the campus with quality/thoughtful planning ...not the typical cookie cutter infrastructure.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111202/NEWS01/112020365/Monroe-Community-College-Kodak-Sibley-Building-Rochester?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

You know, with a market cap of around $275MM, MCC should just consider buying Kodak outright.

Von Maur a mid range department store will be taking over the Eastview Bon Ton store site in 2013.

Von Maur opens locations in second and third tier cities: locations include: Omaha, Des Moines, Louisville, Lincoln Nebraska, Moline (quard cities) Illinois, Ft Wayne, Indiana, Wichita, and Dayton Ohio as well as many smaller communities. They seem a lot like Peebles. Only a few of their stores are located in major market cities. They are headquartered in the fashion mecca of Davenport, Iowa although they do not sell sofas.

More on Von Maur here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Maur

Is this the big department store they were trying to bring in?

If MCC doesn't occupy the Sibley Building, the City has no clue what else to do with it. That's the basis for this whole push. Not a good enough reason.

The best learning environments are those designed specifically for that purpose. Instead, we are choosing to retrofit unwanted 1980s-era office floors (Kodak) or unwanted 1930s-era retail space (Sibley). Both are terrible fits - MCC has complained for years about classrooms obstructed by support columns.

What's best for the students would be to be located with other students at the excellent Main Campus. Access for the car-less is not a legitimate argument - surely a problem to be mitigated, but no reason to incur the capital & operating costs of a new campus.

HighFalls….I agree. The MCC main campus is by far the best location to handle city students. This main campus is a fantastic/quality facility offering a wide spectrum of classes, recreation and amenities that ALL students should have access…not just suburban students. And it would be extremely cost effective for tax payers. Just offer express bus service from the city to the Brighton Campus …which is only 4 or 5 miles away. Actually, it could be an asset for city students not having cars…just express service with free WiFi service….and without the hassle of finding a parking spot in the middle of winter!

Regarding the Sibleys building….. the best scenario for potential development would to move out the Damon MCC campus and eliminate bus transfers along Main Street. These two steps are the two major reasons why Sibley remains a near empty building. The worst scenario for the building is having MCC remain!

HighFallsRegarding the Sibleys building….. the best scenario for potential development would to move out the Damon MCC campus and eliminate bus transfers along Main Street. These two steps are the two major reasons why Sibley remains a near empty building. The worst scenario for the building is having MCC remain!

Yes, I definitely agree with that. MCC should probably move to the Kodak site, bring more people to High Falls, an area that needs more pedestrian activity. Main Street is already being heavily invested into, and the Sibley Building would be IDEAL for mixed use, with ground level shops and restaurants. It would be in the best interests of everybody in Rochester for MCC to vacate the Sibley Building.

Speaking of vacancies, the "saucer" of the First Federal Plaza is vacant as of this month I believe. I would LOVE to see a Changing Scenes style restaurant return to the site, it would be tremendous downtown development and would undoubtedly attract even suburbanites to Main Street.

Rochester Housing Market To Roar In 2012: Experts (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/03/us-usa-realestate-pros-idUSTRE8021IK20120103)


(Reuters) - This new year might be the one in which the housing market starts to strengthen, according to the 2012 predictions of several housing industry observers and experts.

Jed Kolko, chief economist at Trulia.com, a real estate search and research website, says he sees rising rents, a humble recovery in housing prices and even some unexpected "hot" spots where he thinks price increases will exceed the average this year.

"Smart cities are hot," he said in his annual forecast, highlighting Austin, Houston, San Jose, Boston and Rochester, New York, as cities where home prices can be expected to see modest to healthy increases.

Rochester might seem a surprising addition, since the city lost many jobs when the photography colossus Kodak thinned its ranks. Seems things are rebounding; "In Rochester, a center of high-skill manufacturing industries, education levels are well above the national average," Kolko wrote. "As the recovery proceeds, smart cities are leading the way."

Kolko told Reuters his predictions are based on 14 months of U.S. job gains and the assumption that "there's no big crisis in 2012."

I was back in Rochester for the holidays, and I noticed that there was a decent amount of development progress that has gone under-reported on this message board. This is just what I noticed, I'm sure there was plenty more that I just didn't have time to get to

1) The Brownstone houses being built on Plymoth Ave were well underway, and look like they'll be occupied by springtime.

2) U of R is going nuts w/ projects. The Warner School is starting to look like a real building, and should be a nice addition to the campus. The expansion of the Cancer Center at the Med School looks like it's going to be complete in the near future. It also looks like the new Saunders Research Building has come online. The Chiller Plant expansion is well underway too, and should be a great addition to the University's infrastructure.

3) I have mixed emotions about the Erie Harbor project. On one hand it'll be nice to have some new market-rate houses in the South Wedge, but it's coming at a steep aesthetic price. My dog (may he rest in peace) took better looking shits than those new buildings. I hated the old bunker-looking complex, and I hate the new color-wheel gone wrong buildings that have gone up in it's place.

4) It looks like Capron Street has finally come online, and people have moved in. I'm glad to see that Mr. Dutton's project is successful.

Again, that's all I was able to see when I was back. Does anyone else have any updates?

Rochester has a long history of bad cops, so this is nothing new. Frankly, this latest incident is relatively mild. Rochester had a seriously deranged Police Chief named Gordon Urlacher in the 1980s and early 1990s

Huh? Please elaborate.

What's really important is that we are finally getting a Dairy Queen in Rochester...

http://henrietta.whec.com/news/news/61281-dairy-queen-coming-henrietta

Color me shocked. Who knew the Rochester metro never had a Dairy Queen.

not development directly, but jobs = development eventually!

Optimation may add 100 jobs as local capabilities grow
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20120208/BUSINESS/302080018/Optimation?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Home|s

Title company Closing USA expects to add 100 jobs at Rochester Tech Park
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20120208/BUSINESS/302080028/C-losing-USA-Rochester-Tech-Park-Lt-Gov-Robert-Duffy?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

Color me shocked. Who knew the Rochester metro never had a Dairy Queen.

Well, I knew that. I have a feeling that in the past, the presence of Carvel, and more recently, Abbotts, had prevented DQ from bothering to open an outlet. When you figure that it is freezing cold in Rochester for 8 months of the year, there is only so much demand for ice cream.

When you figure that it is freezing cold in Rochester for 8 months of the year, there is only so much demand for ice cream.

Hey, Seaway. Remember the other day when you asked me what the definition of hyperbole was.....

Hey, Seaway. Remember the other day when you asked me what the definition of hyperbole was.....

Seriously? Do you really think that in a place where it hits 80+ degrees maybe only a dozen days a year that opening a whole bunch of ice cream shops would be a viable business model?

Seriously? Do you really think that in a place where it hits 80+ degrees maybe only a dozen days a year that opening a whole bunch of ice cream shops would be a viable business model?

:ohno: Yes, not a day goes by where I do not seriously consider buying and eating ice cream. If it's cold outside I'll eat it inside. And you know what else, I might actually go into a Starbucks and order hot coffee on a 90 degree day, probably consume that inside too. Eating is not weather dependent.

Interesting to see that as of the most recent OFFICIAL US Census the Albany CSA has surpassed Rochester and is now the nations 50th largest. Buffalo remains the State's second largest under this new Federal methodology followed by Albany, then Rochester and Syracuse coming in at number 68 natiionally


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_primary_census_statistical_areas

I knew things on this message board have been bad lately, but I never thought a project like this would go unreported

http://www.cityofrochester.gov/article.aspx?id=8589950104

I'm glad to see that Brooks Landing is continuing to develop, despite a bit of a slow start. I just hope that U of R will eventually begin to invest heavily in that area, and then maybe it can become the college town that I truely believe it can be. Until then, I'll just have to grin and bear it while U of R tries to make a college town a mile away from campus.

Lets do it! From today's Democrat and Chronicle:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20120315/NEWS01/303150059/Brooks-Landing-high-rise-clears-zoning-hurdles?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Local News

An 11-story student housing high-rise at Brooks Landing cleared zoning hurdles Thursday and got a City Council committee endorsement on financing and other matters.

The $20 million next phase of the project across the Genesee River from the University of Rochester could get under way in early May....continue in article.

------------------------------------

some good renderings of the proposed brooks landing project

http://www.location19.org/forum/topics/public-meeting-for-brooks-landing-ii-review-of-the-tuesday-march-?commentId=2047650:Comment:52167&xg_source=activity

Interesting to see that as of the most recent OFFICIAL US Census the Albany CSA has surpassed Rochester and is now the nations 50th largest. Buffalo remains the State's second largest under this new Federal methodology followed by Albany, then Rochester and Syracuse coming in at number 68 natiionally


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_primary_census_statistical_areas

However: I wouldn't be surprised if within a decade or two, metro Buffalo gets eclipsed by both metro Rochester & Albany, falling down to the third largest upstate.

About the only game changers that would keep Buff as #1 upstate metro long-term would be a substantial increase in new immigrants or adding some new counties, including Chautauqua, and/or one or 2 of those currently part of metro Roch.

At this point, all those options look rather unlikely.

Got this graphic from another forum. So much for Roc-the-City's idea that since the housing bust, everyone is going to move back to Rochester and places like it from the Sunbelt and the Southwest. Many of the cities with negative migration are in the Midwest or Northeast; few are in the South or Southwest. Conversely, many of those with positive net migration are in the West, South, and Southwest.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6cYitR0sRi8/T33tx02mhAI/AAAAAAAABs8/t0NNGGd0q1g/s1600/NetMig_April052012.JPG

Hard to make any judgements from the graph above since 63% of the cities on the list are in the sunbelt or west and only 5 are in the rust belt. Amazing how just 30 years ago over half of the cities on this list would have been from the rust belt

However: I wouldn't be surprised if within a decade or two, metro Buffalo gets eclipsed by both metro Rochester & Albany, falling down to the third largest upstate.
I wouldn't be surprised if in a decade or two, bayviews is still trolling the WNY message boards ...

I wouldn't be surprised if in a decade or two, bayviews is still trolling the WNY message boards ...

Talk about trolling!

Clearly a nonsensical post that has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with Rochester Development.

Hard to make any judgements from the graph above since 63% of the cities on the list are in the sunbelt or west and only 5 are in the rust belt. Amazing how just 30 years ago over half of the cities on this list would have been from the rust belt

Well, the list IS of the largest 40 MSAs. I guess Rust Belt cities aren't all that large. Size brings a greater variety of entertainment and amenities, as well as better employment opportunities. The migration trend everywhere in the world is toward urban areas, and it is for those very same reasons.

Talk about trolling!

Clearly a nonsensical post that has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with Rochester Development.

So you are saying it's a lot like many of your posts?

So you are saying it's a lot like many of your posts?

Obviously not.

Hard to make any judgements from the graph above since 63% of the cities on the list are in the sunbelt or west and only 5 are in the rust belt. Amazing how just 30 years ago over half of the cities on this list would have been from the rust belt

Where's Buffalo?

Has it just fallen off the list already?

Where's Buffalo?

Has it just fallen off the list already?

The chart was only the top 40. Buffalo is #49.

The chart was only the top 40. Buffalo is #49.

Sad how it just keeps slipping down.

And just imagine, Buffalo USED TO BE in the top 20 metros.

Why not bring your opinions over to the Buffalo board Bayviews? What are you afraid about if you're just speaking the truth? Come on, let's get a real debate going. You start.


I say this because I fail to see what Buffalo's apparent misfortunes have to do with Rochester.

I say this because I fail to see what Buffalo's apparent misfortunes have to do with Rochester.

Yes, of course - because after all, the two cities exist in their own isolated bubbles.

/s

Why not bring your opinions over to the Buffalo board Bayviews?

Good suggestions. Right you are. Indeed, I should be sharing more good ideas on the Buffalo forums.

Yes, of course - because after all, the two cities exist in their own isolated bubbles.

/s

They do exist in their own isolated forums. If that's not how we should look at them, then combine the two forums together.

They do exist in their own isolated forums. If that's not how we should look at them, then combine the two forums together.

Or perhaps occasionally mention one city in the other's forum because they're affected by the same macro factors. That's all he was doing.

Or perhaps occasionally mention one city in the other's forum because they're affected by the same macro factors. That's all he was doing.

Exactly, here we have in Buffalo & Rochester a pair of metros that run into each other.

There’s no damage done in comparing & trading best practices and good ideas along the Thruway corrider.