It appears their has been a revision towards the IMF stats last seen in October of 2007. For most developing countries their appeared to be a gross inflation in the gdp per capita, so the revised stats many nations have lower gdp per capita's. However some nations have seen an increase most notably Nigeria.

Here is a map for GDP based on PPP
http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/index.php

top 5 Economies (PPP)
1. South Africa
2. Egypt
3. Nigeria
4. Algeria
5. Morocco

top 5 Economies (Nominal)
1. South Africa
2. Nigeria
3. Algeria
4. Egypt
5. Angola

top 5 GDP per capita (Nominal)
1. Libya
2. Equitorial Guinea
3. Gabon
4. Botswana
5. South Africa

top 5 GDP per capita (PPP)
1. Botswana
2. Gabon
3. Equitorial Guinea
4. Libya
5. South Africa

those numbers can be right in many respects. why is congo so low and continually getting lower despite the economy improving.

botswana is very impressive

those numbers can be right in many respects. why is congo so low and continually getting lower despite the economy improving.

botswana is very impressive

Because the numbers before were inflated. Same goes for the likes of China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Namibia, Argentina among others, regarding GDP per capita PPP.

Interesting that apart from South Africa nations in the top 5 in the per capita area are all nations with a one dimensional economy. Pretty much based on one natural resource.

^^ Morocco's and Egypt's economy is not reliant on one resource.

Finally Nigeria has shown itself in a sense lol. It is like 219 billion while SA is like 291 billion... Not bad at all!

Because the numbers before were inflated. Same goes for the likes of China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Namibia, Argentina among others, regarding GDP per capita PPP.

Interesting that apart from South Africa nations in the top 5 in the per capita area are all nations with a one dimensional economy. Pretty much based on one natural resource.

how do you figure those numbers are inflated?

Interesting that apart from South Africa nations in the top 5 in the per capita area are all nations with a one dimensional economy. Pretty much based on one natural resource.

....or two or three commodities.:)

Moreover, one dimesional or not this doesn´t seem to bother stats. Kuwait or Brunei are also one dimensional economies and they figure high.

What bothers me more is that all of these countries in Sub-Sahara are small, except SA. We do not have any African nation with high GDP per capita in there which has more than 10 million inhabitants. SAD!!

And where is Mauritius or Seychelles???? Why are they excluded???

Well Angola will have higher GDP per capita pretty soon. I am pinning my hope on it in the medium term and Nigeria in the longer term.

^^ Morocco's and Egypt's economy is not reliant on one resource.

Referring to GDP per capita.

Alex, you are very right. Most of the richest African nations are commodity-lead. We still have not seen the broad based economic growth seen in, say, Vietnam where manufacturing and agriculture are booming. This really does worry me.

One of the problem in Africa is the lack of good infrastructure. Good infrastructure is the key to good economic growth, more investors etc..

You can not attracte investors in the agriculture, manufactering when the infrastructure is bad...

Investors want good infrastructure to export their products. Europa has invested in the fifties a lot in infrastructure and that attracte a lot of investments from the US etc..

....or two or three commodities.:)

Moreover, one dimesional or not this doesn´t seem to bother stats. Kuwait or Brunei are also one dimensional economies and they figure high.

What bothers me more is that all of these countries in Sub-Sahara are small, except SA. We do not have any African nation with high GDP per capita in there which has more than 10 million inhabitants. SAD!!

And where is Mauritius or Seychelles???? Why are they excluded???

Yeah but the thing is its never great to be pinned down to one or two commodities. Prices can and will eventually fluctuate, its how you manage the boom period is what matters. But what you notice with the likes of Middle Eastern nations (with oil) is that while they figure well in gdp per capita other social indicators like literacy, life expectancy and other more specific criterias are not as good. For example Czech Republic with no oil and part of the former communist block has a better HDI rating than Kuwait. That said both Brunei and Kuwait are immensly wealthy and have higher living standards than the majority of nations.

Mauritius GDP per capita nominal $6,181 and $12,074 GDP per capita PPP
Seychelles GDP per capita nominal $9,307 and $17,829 GDP per capita PP

I guess this makes Seychelles the wealthiest country in Africa and South Africa the 7th!

Referring to GDP per capita.

Ah ok my bad.

That being said, you make a good point because when an economy is reliant on one resource for its revenue, it makes it very difficult to distribute the wealth among the population in an equitable manner.

One of the problem in Africa is the lack of good infrastructure. Good infrastructure is the key to good economic growth, more investors etc..

You can not attracte investors in the agriculture, manufactering when the infrastructure is bad...

Investors want good infrastructure to export their products. Europa has invested in the fifties a lot in infrastructure and that attracte a lot of investments from the US etc..

Africa's problem is that its leaders invest their countries' fortunes in arms, like Zimbabwe right now. They dont give a damn about development; More about destruction

Beautiful! More dick-measuring!

(someone had to say it)

Would Nigeria Show Black Africa Proud by Knocking off South Africa to the Top... That would be something.

Would Nigeria Show Black Africa Proud by Knocking off South Africa to the Top... That would be something.

Beautiful! More dick-measuring!


:lol::lol: we have the biggest. suck on it!:carrot:

If you look at the recent IMF figures regarding growth in Africa, you will note that Nigeria's growth was biggest in the non-oil sector. In fact the growth was spurred by the non-oil sector. Inroads are being made in the Finance / Service Sector. Once developed and expanded, the disparity in the countries source of income will begin to close.

Oh dear, please not another SA-Nigeria thing.

^^ I don't actually see an argument developing here. Apart from one harmless comment.

Would Nigeria Show Black Africa Proud by Knocking off South Africa to the Top... That would be something.

Well Nigeria is the biggest country in Africa so i really don't see anything wrong with it creating a bigger economy than SA to support the 147 million people and is the largest oil exporter which should help fuel the growth of the economy if windfall is correctly applied. I don't think any intellectual person in SA or elsewhere in Africa is worried about that, its a logical step forward that will happen, its more a question of when.

:cheers:

Yes Quite true, but what about the issue of multinational corporations and regional investments. If Nigeria continues to become a larger economy and develops an infrastructure that can speed up the boom of larger corporations in the country, then what we will see is a larger and more pronounced presence of Nigeria throughout Africa.

South Africa is already present in certain countries in Africa, and although the development of Nigeria will be a boost for Nigeria and Africa as a whole, it won't necessarily be a bonus for South African corporations etc, although competition could to some extent shape these companies to deliver better services etc.

If you don't think this is significant, I can show you sources and statistics that have even been impacted by the relative lack of competition in African investments.

Nigeria can defeat South-Africa because the have a lot sectors and rescources that are not developed yet. The agriculture, mining etc are not yet been good developed in Nigeria..

If the do this they can easily become the number one economy of Africa..

You know I find this rather hilarious. Words such as "defeat" and "show Black Africa" proud are rather worrying. It goes to show that some people only worry about being "the best."

Duh Nigeria is going to knock SA out of top spot in the future! The country is like what, 3 or 4 times larger than SA population-wise. It's all very well and good having the biggest numbers, but if the people of the country are living in !*#$, then it's pretty worthless. It just seems to me as if people want Nigeria to have bragging rights more than anything. Just remember, having the largest economy is one thing - making use of it is another. I most certainly hope Nigeria manages both.

Oh, and before anyone even says it (because yes, I know it's coming), no, this post is not directed at anyone in particular, and no it's not directed at a specific country and/or race group. That was a mouthful...

Would Nigeria Show Black Africa Proud by Knocking off South Africa to the Top... That would be something.

south africa is black africa too

It wouldnt be the first time something develops from nothing!

Yes, RSA is Black Africa too.

You know I find this rather hilarious. Words such as "defeat" and "show Black Africa" proud are rather worrying. It goes to show that some people only worry about being "the best."

Duh Nigeria is going to knock SA out of top spot in the future! The country is like what, 3 or 4 times larger than SA population-wise. It's all very well and good having the biggest numbers, but if the people of the country are living in !*#$, then it's pretty worthless. It just seems to me as if people want Nigeria to have bragging rights more than anything. Just remember, having the largest economy is one thing - making use of it is another. I most certainly hope Nigeria manages both.

Oh, and before anyone even says it (because yes, I know it's coming), no, this post is not directed at anyone in particular, and no it's not directed at a specific country and/or race group. That was a mouthful...
it seems you assume that nigerians only hope to hold the position of having the largest economy. thats just one step. having the best social services and per capita gdp is also a goal. but one at a time. first, we should have the largest economy based on th population size

it seems you assume that nigerians only hope to hold the position of having the largest economy. thats just one step. having the best social services and per capita gdp is also a goal. but one at a time. first, we should have the largest economy based on th population size

Nowhere did I say that Nigerians only hope to hold the position of having the largest economy. I did say that there are some people who feel just that though.

Please read my post again, paying special attention to the last paragraph.

Would Nigeria Show Black Africa Proud by Knocking off South Africa to the Top... That would be something.

What? LOOOL.

On a serious and honest note, while I wish for the best for Nigeria and it will be #1 eventually, I don't get this idea that it's good for Africa as a whole.

What? LOOOL.

On a serious and honest note, while I wish for the best for Nigeria and it will be #1 eventually, I don't get this idea that it's good for Africa as a whole.

its good for africa's smaller countries to have a large economy to trade with, like those in southern africa do with south africa

Nigeria should have the strongest, largest economy on the continent. Wonderful and for THEIR sake I hope they'll achieve just that, but that's not the point. We should try to have the best/ or some of the top economies in the world.
Africans have nothing to measure themselves against on the continent. Let's face it, We are all in the dumps and are pretty much pathetic. Eventhough SA has the largest economy around here, its nothing compared to the big boys outside.

Yes Quite true, but what about the issue of multinational corporations and regional investments. If Nigeria continues to become a larger economy and develops an infrastructure that can speed up the boom of larger corporations in the country, then what we will see is a larger and more pronounced presence of Nigeria throughout Africa.

South Africa is already present in certain countries in Africa, and although the development of Nigeria will be a boost for Nigeria and Africa as a whole, it won't necessarily be a bonus for South African corporations etc, although competition could to some extent shape these companies to deliver better services etc.

If you don't think this is significant, I can show you sources and statistics that have even been impacted by the relative lack of competition in African investments.

It is good to have competition within Africa. Just like anywhere else in other continents, Africa can not just have one economy dominate everywhere, it must have regional economic powers that are capable of competing against each other. It will certainly ease the pressure on South Africa to have Nigeria take its rightful place.

Regarding multinationals, a bigger Nigerian economy will certainly create opportunities for multi-nationals both from Nigeria and elsewhere in Africa as well as from other continents. if you look at many SA multinationals, they have successfully managed to go into a number of foreign markets post 1994 even outside of Africa. Some examples that come to mind are:-

SABMiller - now number 1 brewer in the world with interests in US (Miller), Europe, Africa and now number 1 in China by market share

Anglo American - virtually everywhere, one of the top resources players in the world

Old Mutual - Africa, European and Asian markets and bought Skandia

Standard Bank - Africa, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, India, Turkey, Portugal

SASOL Group - Africa, South America, middle east and even North America

Naspers - active in Africa, China, South America and India

MTN - active in 21 countries in Africa and Middle East including Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan

its good for africa's smaller countries to have a large economy to trade with, like those in southern africa do with south africa

Maybe in West Africa this would be the case, but the continent is bigger than that.

On a side note, a growing Nigerian economy will open up the private sector in Nigeria and will also enable Nigerian multinationals to be born, some good examples that i can think of include say:-

Dangote Group (we saw its recent investment in SA),

Intercontinental Bank (announced opening several offices in West Africa)

Zenith Bank (announced opening several offices in West Africa, UK)

United Bank of Africa (announced opening several offices in West Africa, UK)

Globacomm (we know they are laying submarine cable from London to Lagos and actively prospecting for GSM licences elsewhere in West Africa)

The economic real GDP outlooks are nice:

Angola 16% growth rate, Nigeria 9.1%, Egypt 7%, Morocco 6.5% etc.

In Africa nobody works together. For example in North Africa nobody works together. They had created a Maghreb Union in 1983 but because of political problems it still has not been launched.

Experts had said it could bring North Africa more economy growth, growing BIP and it can launch their industry..


The same is for other countries in Africa, nobody works together with their neighbours. For example Senegal imports all its potatoes from Europa, but Mali their neighbour who produces a lot of potatoes they don't buy from them.
There are a lot of this examples in Africa..

All lot of countries in Africa buy expensive food from Europa. But the same food they can buy cheaper from their neighbours..


In Europe the have made a deal that the countries in Europa first buy products and food from their neighbours and then from countries outside the EU. That is clever so that the money stays in Europa and countries profit from eachother...

African economies need to develop themselves internally more before even thinking about economic unions.
But I do agree with you wholeheartedly, more trade within the continent can help.

In Africa nobody works together. For example in North Africa nobody works together. They had created a Maghreb Union in 1983 but because of political problems it still has not been launched.

Experts had said it could bring North Africa more economy growth, growing BIP and it can launch their industry..


The same is for other countries in Africa, nobody works together with their neighbours. For example Senegal imports all its potatoes from Europa, but Mali their neighbour who produces a lot of potatoes they don't buy from them.
There are a lot of this examples in Africa..

All lot of countries in Africa buy expensive food from Europa. But the same food they can buy cheaper from their neighbours..


In Europe the have made a deal that the countries in Europa first buy products and food from their neighbours and then from countries outside the EU. That is clever so that the money stays in Europa and countries profit from eachother...

This is a very sad case in Africa. Nigeria and Angola has more than enough oil to meet the energy needs of the entire continent, but i am aware of lots of billions of dollars that is being spent importing crude oil from the middle east by African countries.

I have worked out that the problem boils down to African countries working against each other to "out-do" each other instead of working together and a lot of bickering. I have said it before that a country like SA could import its crude oil from say Nigeria and in return perhaps help Nigeria to develop the mining sector which i hear holds a lot of potential and is largely un-explored. But no, SA will go get crude from Kuwait and Nigeria will go get China to come mine its resources even though both countries could actually help each other. Much like the attitudes i see here on this forum by a number of forumers. In the end China and Kuwait benefits more and Africa remains forever indebted and dependent on them.

:ohno::ohno:

In Africa nobody works together.

You've hit the nail right on the head. There's too much inner-conflict and silly competition between countries trying to be "better" than each other that they fail to see the larger picture.

In Africa nobody works together. For example in North Africa nobody works together. They had created a Maghreb Union in 1983 but because of political problems it still has not been launched.

Experts had said it could bring North Africa more economy growth, growing BIP and it can launch their industry..


The same is for other countries in Africa, nobody works together with their neighbours. For example Senegal imports all its potatoes from Europa, but Mali their neighbour who produces a lot of potatoes they don't buy from them.
There are a lot of this examples in Africa..

All lot of countries in Africa buy expensive food from Europa. But the same food they can buy cheaper from their neighbours..


In Europe the have made a deal that the countries in Europa first buy products and food from their neighbours and then from countries outside the EU. That is clever so that the money stays in Europa and countries profit from eachother...
i think the EPA's and other deals hamper internal trade between the countries. but i think some countries opted out of these deals so hopefully we get to see more trade within africa

i think the EPA's and other deals hamper internal trade between the countries. but i think some countries opted out of these deals so hopefully we get to see more trade within africa

Forget EPA, that's a European engineered trade regime. Where is Africa's own policy to forge trade between African countries and how is this being practically implemented on the ground. Lets see the results. Until recently trade between even the biggest economies in Africa was not more than a mere $200 million. Its all bickering and "i am better than you" or "i get mine from France" attitudes. Can someone show me the trade figures between

Nigeria and Ghana,
Nigeria and SA,
Angola and SA,
Kenya and Nigeria,
Kenya and SA for example.

You will see that we are pathetic when it comes to trade between ourselves.

Actually, most African countries did opt out of those deals. :yes:

That is good news for African trade!

Yeah but the thing is its never great to be pinned down to one or two commodities. Prices can and will eventually fluctuate, its how you manage the boom period is what matters. But what you notice with the likes of Middle Eastern nations (with oil) is that while they figure well in gdp per capita other social indicators like literacy, life expectancy and other more specific criterias are not as good. For example Czech Republic with no oil and part of the former communist block has a better HDI rating than Kuwait. That said both Brunei and Kuwait are immensly wealthy and have higher living standards than the majority of nations.

Mauritius GDP per capita nominal $6,181 and $12,074 GDP per capita PPP
Seychelles GDP per capita nominal $9,307 and $17,829 GDP per capita PP

I guess this makes Seychelles the wealthiest country in Africa and South Africa the 7th!

I agree with the one or two commodity argument but governing smaller nations is always easier than bigger ones.

Seychelles just has lesss than 100 000 inhabitants, if I am not mistaken! This explains a lot although good governance criteria play an important role, too!

Concerning Kuwait and Czech Republic, hmmm. HDI also tells half of the story, I had the chance to travel to Kuwait once (only visited two Gulf countries in my life so far, Kuwait and the UAE) but the standard of living in Kuwait was even slightly higher than in the UAE from what I have observed. The country is immensely wealthy and the state pays practically for everything and it subsideizes a broad variety of daily items
...something that could keep a lid on the HDI, is that all Gulf Countries depend on cheap foreign labour (mostly from the Indian subcontinet) and majority of the low-skilled workers don´t live properly with all the extra amenities like the locals and some (Western) more-educated expats enjoy.

But if you just take the locals out: their HDI is certainly higher than that of Western European countries, moreover don´t forget where Kuwait once came from in the 60´s, Czech republic had a communist history (consequence: social policy figured very high which might explain their slightly higher ranking to a certain degree)

Forget EPA, that's a European engineered trade regime. Where is Africa's own policy to forge trade between African countries and how is this being practically implemented on the ground. Lets see the results. Until recently trade between even the biggest economies in Africa was not more than a mere $200 million. Its all bickering and "i am better than you" or "i get mine from France" attitudes. Can someone show me the trade figures between

Nigeria and Ghana,
Nigeria and SA,
Angola and SA,
Kenya and Nigeria,
Kenya and SA for example.

You will see that we are pathetic when it comes to trade between ourselves.

i dont think EPA is the only problem, but its one of them. attitudes is another. i think we need a new and practical nepad. perhaps an african trade organisation arm of the AU

I agree with the one or two commodity argument but governing smaller nations is always easier than bigger ones.

Seychelles just has lesss than 100 000 inhabitants, if I am not mistaken! This explains a lot although good governance criteria play an important role, too!

Concerning Kuwait and Czech Republic, hmmm. HDI also tells half of the story, I had the chance to travel to Kuwait once (only visited two Gulf countries in my life so far, Kuwait and the UAE) but the standard of living in Kuwait was even slightly higher than in the UAE from what I have observed. The country is immensely wealthy and the state pays practically for everything and it subsideizes a broad variety of daily items
...something that could keep a lid on the HDI, is that all Gulf Countries depend on cheap foreign labour (mostly from the Indian subcontinet) and majority of the low-skilled workers don´t live properly with all the extra amenities like the locals and some (Western) more-educated expats enjoy.

But if you just take the locals out: their HDI is certainly higher than that of Western European countries, moreover don´t forget where Kuwait once came from in the 60´s, Czech republic had a communist history (consequence: social policy figured very high which might explain their slightly higher ranking to a certain degree)

True.

True and their economy is based on tourism, you can easily employ 100,000 people in this sector alone!

True but education standards in the middle east whether their wealthy gulf nations or impoverished oilless ones is very poor. This is what has kept the region down the most. Czech Republic with more than 16 times the population and no oil has a far more dynamic economy and a far more educated population. It also goes back to the issue of gender equality. In all honesty gulf nations (apart from UAE) don't impress me. Any tiny nation can have their oil dug up by westerners and have Indians do the hard work while they live off the fruits of the money. Gulf Arabs are generally looked down by other Arabs, Iranians and Turks.

True and their economy is based on tourism, you can easily employ 100,000 people in this sector alone!

Agreed


True but education standards in the middle east whether their wealthy gulf nations or impoverished oilless ones is very poor. This is what has kept the region down the most. Czech Republic with more than 16 times the population and no oil has a far more dynamic economy and a far more educated population. It also goes back to the issue of gender equality. In all honesty gulf nations (apart from UAE) don't impress me. Any tiny nation can have their oil dug up by westerners and have Indians do the hard work while they live off the fruits of the money. Gulf Arabs are generally looked down by other Arabs, Iranians and Turks.

This doesn´t apply to the small Gulf states like UAE, Qatar and Kuwait or do you still clink to Western shaped clichés of the the 1970´s!?

I wish an Emirati could read this and reply to this one-sided rubbish about education! A new generation of Emiratis is born and the majority is very welll -educated and women are thriving, too. Most of them even excel perform bettwer than men at university. don´t you read gulfnews.com every now and then?

Comparing Czech Republic to any Arabian Gulf State is out of question, it is like comparing apples and bananas

The structure of the smaller Gulf countries is quite unique in the world which makes them incomparable!!

Compare the Czech Republic to countries like Romania, Bulgaria , Poland or Hungary!

Agreed




This doesn´t apply to the small Gulf states like UAE, Qatar and Kuwait or do you still clink to Western shaped clichés of the the 1970´s!?

I wish an Emirati could read this and reply to this one-sided rubbish about education! A new generation of Emiratis is born and the majority is very welll -educated and women are thriving, too. Most of them even excel perform bettwer than men at university. don´t you read gulfnews.com every now and then?

Comparing Czech Republic to any Arabian Gulf State is out of question, it is like comparing apples and bananas

The structure of the smaller Gulf countries is quite unique in the world which makes them incomparable!!

Compare the Czech Republic to countries like Romania, Bulgaria , Poland or Hungary!

Compare literacy rates of men and women and you'll see a great disparity. The issue is that the rules and social regulations for a woman to enter the buisness world is very difficult. How can a woman actively participate in the economy when she isn't allowed to be in a room alone with another man whose not a male relative? Gulf nations don't invest in their human capital, because their content to live an easy free life of oil.

Yes it indeed is, westerners dig up their oil and their migrants live with no sense of what labor laws are.

Of course I only comment that a nation with no oil and whose economy had been closed for half a century has a superior HDI to tiny oil rich gulf nations. You may not like it but its a fact.

Oh boy, of course there are disparities the historic socio-cultural background is different...how can you expect the same? Do you know where the UAE came from??? Give the country a bit more time, what the UAE has achieved in the past one and half generation is tremendous (it has taken Europe a lot of blood and war and misery to achieve what it has become today and most of the social standards evolved with the end of World WAR II) , you cannot compare European countries to the Gulf arab States...and so many Europeans are searching for better life down there although they should not due to the HDI logic.

As for the oil, you won´t find any foreigners in the oil sector in the UAE - except advisiory function (apart from Oman and Yemen, foreign oil companies are directly involved), no foreign filling stations in the UAE (all is mostly ERAMET), ...the Gulf states did something great in the 70´s , they sealed off all the strategic economic sectors in I do hope that Angola will go the same way but Sonanagol is doing great.

I am a bit more pessimistic for Nigeria but le´t wait and see.

As for the HDI histeria of yours, have you checked where the HDI of poorer European countries was in the mid 70´s like Portugal, almost on part with that of Mauritius today.!!! Go and look for it!!! Africa´s and Gulf Arab´s´HDI were extremly low, starting form a very low position. So starting from a much higher position is always better than from a very low one.

I can´t shake it off but I think you are kind of jealous, wishing that you could be one of them! we had a similar debate a few months back.

I won't bother responding, you have your opinion I have mine. Social indicators tend to prove what I believe. Jealousy? Please, I envy Japan, South Korea, Germany and Canada not tiny nations flooded with oil but with puppet royal families who supress the people. Like the Shia majority who live outside of glitz that we know as Manama in Bahrain. Their are so many much better examples and I swear I'd never live in my country if it became a spiting image of the likes of Saudi Arabia.

I'll end it with that, lets get back to the topic at hand.

Why do we spend so much time discussing the middle east and Europe instead of dealing with our own issues here in Africa? Just something that seems to be bothering a bit about the African forum. I have no problem bench marking against these countries, but it seems we just spend more time discussing these countries than we spend on discussing Africa and solutions to our problems.

Or am i just being unreasonable here?

Yeah but the thing is its never great to be pinned down to one or two commodities. Prices can and will eventually fluctuate, its how you manage the boom period is what matters. But what you notice with the likes of Middle Eastern nations (with oil) is that while they figure well in gdp per capita other social indicators like literacy, life expectancy and other more specific criterias are not as good. For example Czech Republic with no oil and part of the former communist block has a better HDI rating than Kuwait. That said both Brunei and Kuwait are immensly wealthy and have higher living standards than the majority of nations.

Mauritius GDP per capita nominal $6,181 and $12,074 GDP per capita PPP
Seychelles GDP per capita nominal $9,307 and $17,829 GDP per capita PP

I guess this makes Seychelles the wealthiest country in Africa and South Africa the 7th!



It is not fair to compare Czech republic with Kuwait. The Czech Republic is in the EU that is more worth then oil or gaz etc. The EU has made Czech Reoublic rich and has given it a high HDI. They get every year billions from the EU for their economy, infrastructure, healthcare etc..


You can not compare them...

Don't forget that Spain before it came by the EU it was on the same economic level and HDI as Morocco. Spain was a very poor country just like Ireland, Greece etc and now they have become very rich thanks to the EU...

The same is now happening with Poland, Romania etc. They where very poor before they came in the EU and now they are going to become very rich...

The EU is more worth then oil, gaz etc it is the chicken with the golden eggs that nevers dies...

If Turkey comes in the EU they will get a GDP of 1 triljoen dollar and their HDI will increase...

It is not fair to copmare Czech republic with Kuwait. The Czech Republic is in the EU that is more worth then oil or gaz etc. The EU has made Czech Reoublic rich and has given it a high HDI. They get every year billions from the EU for their economy, infrastructure, healthcare etc..


You can not compare them...

Don't forget that Spain before it came by the EU it was on the same economic level and HDI as Morocco. Spain was a very poor country just like Ireland, Greece etc and now they have become very rich thanks to the EU...

The same is now happening with Poland, Romania etc. They where very poor before they came in the EU and now they are going to become very rich...

The EU is more worth then oil, gaz etc it is the chicken with the golden eggs that nevers dies...

If Turkey comes in the EU they will get a GDP of 1 triljoen dollar and their HDI will increase...
yep, unity is worth more than any other resource

i wonder why the imf stats dont capture more of the financial reserves of the various african nations. thats something good to know and an area botswana leads in.

I won't bother responding, you have your opinion I have mine. Social indicators tend to prove what I believe. Jealousy? Please, I envy Japan, South Korea, Germany and Canada not tiny nations flooded with oil but with puppet royal families who supress the people. Like the Shia majority who live outside of glitz that we know as Manama in Bahrain. Their are so many much better examples and I swear I'd never live in my country if it became a spiting image of the likes of Saudi Arabia.

I'll end it with that, lets get back to the topic at hand.

Yes, we have different opinion on this matter....but saying that the leaders of the UAE are puppets is just ridiculous, the leaders are very cunning people and not fools dancing to what the USA wants. (it shows that all their strategic economic key industries are in the hand of the locals, in Africa these attempts led to war and more destruction whereas in the UAE they were crowned by success.
As for the envy aspect: Come on, I am sure that many people in the world would love to change their life for a life of luxury: Emirati, Kuwaiti or Qatari, I wouldn´t mind, honestly said.:) I don´t know if you have been to UAE or Kuwait?

You are drawing on examples like Bahrain or Saudi Arabia , I was strictly refering to the UAE, Kuwait and Qatar and to Oman (given its relative meagre resserves of oil, Oman has fought its way to the top don´t forget that the country only had 10km of tarred roads in the early 70´s, that´s their Bristih heritage, no schools and no tarred roads, everything had to be built from scratch in Oman and Oman once had a terribly low HDI)

As for the oppression aspect: yes, all regimes of the UAE are dictatorial (with varyfing degrees of political liberalism starting from Kuwait to Saudia arabia) but Emiratis - young and old - are very proud of their leaders and I am sure that they don´t want to change their lives with a sorrowful life in a poor but democratic African, Latin American or Asian country.

It is not fair to compare Czech republic with Kuwait. The Czech Republic is in the EU that is more worth then oil or gaz etc. The EU has made Czech Reoublic rich and has given it a high HDI. They get every year billions from the EU for their economy, infrastructure, healthcare etc..


You can not compare them...

Don't forget that Spain before it came by the EU it was on the same economic level and HDI as Morocco. Spain was a very poor country just like Ireland, Greece etc and now they have become very rich thanks to the EU...

The same is now happening with Poland, Romania etc. They where very poor before they came in the EU and now they are going to become very rich...

The EU is more worth then oil, gaz etc it is the chicken with the golden eggs that nevers dies...

If Turkey comes in the EU they will get a GDP of 1 triljoen dollar and their HDI will increase...

Thats a far to simplified manner of looking at things. Yes E.U membership does help especially with the billions of dollars in subsidies poorer members receive. However, nations need to reach a certain level of macroeconomic stability and general wealth before being seen as a potential member. Which is why the Czech Republic is a member and not the Ukraine.

So simply group E.U membership with Spain's and Ireland's incredible ascendancy from poor to wealthy is highly unfair.

Yes, we have different opinion on this matter....but saying that the leaders of the UAE are puppets is just ridiculous, the leaders are very cunning people and not fools dancing to what the USA wants. (it shows that all their strategic economic key industries are in the hand of the locals, in Africa these attempts led to war and more destruction whereas in the UAE they were crowned by success.
As for the envy aspect: Come on, I am sure that many people in the world would love to change their life for a life of luxury: Emirati, Kuwaiti or Qatari, I wouldn´t mind, honestly said.:) I don´t know if you have been to UAE or Kuwait?

You are drawing on examples like Bahrain or Saudi Arabia , I was strictly refering to the UAE, Kuwait and Qatar and to Oman (given its relative meagre resserves of oil, Oman has fought its way to the top don´t forget that the country only had 10km of tarred roads in the early 70´s, that´s their Bristih heritage, no schools and no tarred roads, everything had to be built from scratch in Oman and Oman once had a terribly low HDI)

As for the oppression aspect: yes, all regimes of the UAE are dictatorial (with varyfing degrees of political liberalism starting from Kuwait to Saudia arabia) but Emiratis - young and old - are very proud of their leaders and I am sure that they don´t want to change their lives with a sorrowful life in a poor but democratic African, Latin American or Asian country.

I'm not criticizing the UAE, on the contrary I greatly admire them. However for the likes of Bahrain, Saudi, Qatar and Kuwait I do not and their puppet regimes made up of royal family members completely out of touch with its people. Their all unpopular in their own country, Arab disgruntlement with their governments is common knowledge.

Matthias any country with so few people and that much oil can accomplish that. Especially when you have the foreigners dig up your own oil and participate in the lower income jobs. They all had once a very low HDI and it has improved, that said the economies are still dependent on oil and the education system does not represent that of a rich country. Much less unequal opportunities for women.

Theirs practically no religious freedom, just recently the first church was built in a gulf state (I think it was in Qatar). Some nations have a parliament but they have little political power compared to their respective royal families. Through a standard of living point of view your right, but tell me how many Asian, African or Latin American countries have the same conditions presented to them as these Gulf Arabs?

I'm not criticizing the UAE, on the contrary I greatly admire them. However for the likes of Bahrain, Saudi, Qatar and Kuwait I do not and their puppet regimes made up of royal family members completely out of touch with its people. Their all unpopular in their own country, Arab disgruntlement with their governments is common knowledge.

Besides the UAE, This doesn´t apply to Kuwait nor Qatar. Place this topic in the Kuwaiti or Qatari forum or ask this to a Qatari or Kuwaiti, you will get grossly attacked!



Matthias any country with so few people and that much oil can accomplish that. Especially when you have the foreigners dig up your own oil and participate in the lower income jobs. They all had once a very low HDI and it has improved, that said the economies are still dependent on oil and the education system does not represent that of a rich country. Much less unequal opportunities for women.

Yes, it is A LOT EASIER .... but still no gurantee, smaller Gulf States perform relatively high in terms of good governance, too!

Moreover, should the locals go and dig up the oil for themselves?

They are controlling the oil business it is just logical that others go and dig it up for them, I wouldn´t make my hands dirty if I were in such a position! For what reason??

Agreed on the aspect of women education but even there you have to differentiate between the countries, Gulf States vary....


Theirs practically no religious freedom, just recently the first church was built in a gulf state (I think it was in Qatar).

Yes, it was in Qatar, I agree on this aspect.... but I still remember the enormous local controversy when the first mosque got built in the city where I live, and this is a country where a full-blown democracy is established...and you get all the hatred towards Muslims in Europe, this is neither fair in my eys, people are lumped into one back!

Some nations have a parliament but they have little political power compared to their respective royal families.

If people in the three to four nations are happy with that why not, Gulf Arabs have a different cultural background, you cannot force them to do something that is not supported by the masses, just because the Western World loves to spread its political system around the globe... it works in the West more or less but this doesn´t mean that it has to work in Gulf Arab states or elsewhere, too. The most important in my eyes is still RULE OF LAW, you don´t necesarrily need democracy for that!

But I agree that Saudi Arabia has to open up more, politically, it is a big nation.

Through a standard of living point of view your right, but tell me how many Asian, African or Latin American countries have the same conditions presented to them as these Gulf Arabs?

There is none! (except Singapore, Brunei)

But even in the Western world people are dreaming of the riches of the Arabian gulf, do you know how many TV reports are shown on TV here?

Thats a far to simplified manner of looking at things. Yes E.U membership does help especially with the billions of dollars in subsidies poorer members receive. However, nations need to reach a certain level of macroeconomic stability and general wealth before being seen as a potential member. Which is why the Czech Republic is a member and not the Ukraine.

So simply group E.U membership with Spain's and Ireland's incredible ascendancy from poor to wealthy is highly unfair.


Before the EU candidates get in the EU they get EU support. They get help to develop their economies and money support...

Ukraine is not yet a EU member because Russia doesn't want this to happen, but in the future Ukraine is certainly going to become an EU member..

Thats a far to simplified manner of looking at things. Yes E.U membership does help especially with the billions of dollars in subsidies poorer members receive. However, nations need to reach a certain level of macroeconomic stability and general wealth before being seen as a potential member. Which is why the Czech Republic is a member and not the Ukraine.

So simply group E.U membership with Spain's and Ireland's incredible ascendancy from poor to wealthy is highly unfair.


I don't agree. Spain was a very poor country and half a dictatuur but it came in the EU. The same is for Portugal, Greece etc.

They had totaly no macroeconomic stability. It costed years for them to achieve this...

Every expert know that Spain, Austria, Ireland, Portugal, Greece etc etc have everything to thank to the EU membership. Spain had got billions from the EU to improve its infrastructure.
In Spain you saw only the EU logo that Bridges, hospitals, roads etc where financed by the EU...

Africa needs a economic union with one goverment with people from every country. Countries in Africa pay tax and with that money the African Union invest in infrastructure, agriculture, health care etc in Africa..

And when African countries unite they can create a union for Cacao, Iron, gold etc so that the can introduce a minimum price for their products..

And force African countries first to buy products from eachother...

This will bring Africa power and economic and political stability..

This is what Africa needs...

Well Nigeria is the biggest country in Africa so i really don't see anything wrong with it creating a bigger economy than SA to support the 147 million people and is the largest oil exporter which should help fuel the growth of the economy if windfall is correctly applied. I don't think any intellectual person in SA or elsewhere in Africa is worried about that, its a logical step forward that will happen, its more a question of when.

:cheers:


Just to make a correction. The biggest country in Africa is Sudan. Nigeria just has the largest population in Africa.


Sudan: Area - Total 2,505,813 km² (10th) 967,495 sq miles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan


Nigeria: Area Total 923,768 km² (32nd) 356,667 sq miles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria

Just to make a correction. The biggest country in Africa is Sudan. Nigeria just has the largest population in Africa.


Sudan: Area - Total 2,505,813 km² (10th) 967,495 sq miles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan


Nigeria: Area Total 923,768 km² (32nd) 356,667 sq miles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria

Machiavel, i am aware that Nigeria is not the biggest in terms of geographical area, even South Africa is bigger (1,221,037 km² - 25th) than Nigeria in that regard. I was referring to the size of the population as is normally the case when comparing countries from an economic or GDP point of view.

Africa needs a economic union with one goverment with people from every country. Countries in Africa pay tax and with that money the African Union invest in infrastructure, agriculture, health care etc in Africa..

And when African countries unite they can create a union for Cacao, Iron, gold etc so that the can introduce a minimum price for their products..

And force African countries first to buy products from eachother...

This will bring Africa power and economic and political stability..

This is what Africa needs...

More can be done already without necessarily creating a huge monolithic government which is likely to be met with opposition from individual countries. An economic block should be created under the auspices of the AU which will mandate countries to increase trade between themselves and to trade Africa's commodities under a single commodities exchange. We can then move towards a common currency like the Euro and also start eradicating some of the trade barriers that hinder trade within Africa.

I don't agree. Spain was a very poor country and half a dictatuur but it came in the EU. The same is for Portugal, Greece etc.

They had totaly no macroeconomic stability. It costed years for them to achieve this...

Every expert know that Spain, Austria, Ireland, Portugal, Greece etc etc have everything to thank to the EU membership. Spain had got billions from the EU to improve its infrastructure.
In Spain you saw only the EU logo that Bridges, hospitals, roads etc where financed by the EU...

With all due respect, but thats simply not true. E.U subsidies and aid cannot alone sustain such a large country like Spain. Franco died in 1975 and democracy was established in 1978, 3 years before their acceptance into the E.U.

You need macroeconomic stability to join, because if you don't it will be to far of a burden on the entire union since their all connected. One country falls its the responsibility of other members to aid their recovery. The same applies to how Czech Republic was granted membership, if you don't have inflation under control how can you adopt the Euro, with which every country is tied to??

Also Russia has little to do with Ukraine not joining the E.U, if that was the case how do you explain the likes of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania joining? Ukraine is far too poor and unstable to be considered a serious candidate, thats why. Plus the Ukrainien government is a western ally and a Russian foe.

hopefully the next stats will capture what if any jobs were created

Africa needs a economic union with one goverment with people from every country. Countries in Africa pay tax and with that money the African Union invest in infrastructure, agriculture, health care etc in Africa..

And when African countries unite they can create a union for Cacao, Iron, gold etc so that the can introduce a minimum price for their products..

And force African countries first to buy products from eachother...

This will bring Africa power and economic and political stability..

This is what Africa needs...

i like this idea. we need a big country like nigeria to do the push or it wont happen. but the big ones are too concerned with their own major markets, like nigeria and RSA

With all due respect, but thats simply not true. E.U subsidies and aid cannot alone sustain such a large country like Spain. Franco died in 1975 and democracy was established in 1978, 3 years before their acceptance into the E.U.

You need macroeconomic stability to join, because if you don't it will be to far of a burden on the entire union since their all connected. One country falls its the responsibility of other members to aid their recovery. The same applies to how Czech Republic was granted membership, if you don't have inflation under control how can you adopt the Euro, with which every country is tied to??

Also Russia has little to do with Ukraine not joining the E.U, if that was the case how do you explain the likes of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania joining? Ukraine is far too poor and unstable to be considered a serious candidate, thats why. Plus the Ukrainien government is a western ally and a Russian foe.


I am not talking only about aid and subidies only. When Spain joint the EU it was good for trade in Spain, other companies in Europa came to invest in Spain, other countries had first to buy products from Spain and then from other countries outside the EU..

Like I said . All the EU candidates get EU help before the come in the EU. Before Poland etc came in the EU the got economic support and aid for their economy and this happend years and years ago..

Poland, Czech Republic , Bulgaria got all ready economic support and aid in the ninties from the EU.

Machiavel, i am aware that Nigeria is not the biggest in terms of geographical area, even South Africa is bigger (1,221,037 km² - 25th) than Nigeria in that regard. I was referring to the size of the population as is normally the case when comparing countries from an economic or GDP point of view.


Here's your original quote:

Well Nigeria is the biggest country in Africa

You could simply have written than Nigeria has the largest population or you could have added "by population" at the end of your sentence. I mean, when people said the biggest country in the world, they usually think of Russia with its huge land area and not China which has a the largest population, no? When dishing information, try to be more specific next time, otherwise it's confusing.

Here's your original quote:



You could simply have written than Nigeria has the largest population or you could have added "by population" at the end of your sentence. I mean, when people said the biggest country in the world, they usually think of Russia with its huge land area and not China which has a the largest population, no? When dishing information, try to be more specific next time, otherwise it's confusing.

I am tempted to just ignore your post. But honestly, virtually everybody but you actually understood what i meant by that. Simply because in the context of economics, which is what this particular thread is about and what i was also talking about, "biggest country" implies the size of the population. Anyway, Machiavel, to cut this short, i have noted your point.

Here's your original quote:



You could simply have written than Nigeria has the largest population or you could have added "by population" at the end of your sentence. I mean, when people said the biggest country in the world, they usually think of Russia with its huge land area and not China which has a the largest population, no? When dishing information, try to be more specific next time, otherwise it's confusing.

I'm sorry, but that's clutching at straws. It's quite obvious he was talking about population size...Don't argue just for the sake of arguing, please.

I'm sorry, but that's clutching at straws. It's quite obvious he was talking about population size...Don't argue just for the sake of arguing, please.


For sure.

Why are you trying to start a fight? This is one of the few times a relatively civil discussion is achieved on this type of topic. Please let it go.

I'm sorry, but that's clutching at straws. It's quite obvious he was talking about population size...Don't argue just for the sake of arguing, please.


No, it's not obvious to me that he was talking about population size. And I wasn't arguing, I was rectifying. Nigeria isn't the biggest country in Africa. Sudan is. Nigeria has the largest population. There's a difference here that can't be overlooked. I just wanted to make it clear.

I am tempted to just ignore your post. But honestly, virtually everybody but you actually understood what i meant by that. Simply because in the context of economics, which is what this particular thread is about and what i was also talking about, "biggest country" implies the size of the population. Anyway, Machiavel, to cut this short, i have noted your point.



Kulani,

I wasn't trying to be difficult at all. You must admit that it is only those who know the African continent very well who will understand what you meant. I just decided to be more precise just in case. I am sure you're aware that many people think Africa is a country :)

But thanks for undestanding my point. I know it's hard to interpret written sentences and perhaps I came accross as a jerk or a "provocateur", but it wasn't the case.

This is just a little aside. After the years of havoc that the IMF has wreaked on Latin America and southeast Asia during their most brutal dictator years and in tandem with their sanguinary leaders (Pinochet anyone?), I no longer take the IMF and the World Bank seriously.

You guys should read Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism by Naomi Klein. what an eye opener. As a South American I think you would find it very interesting, Alex Roney.

This is just a little aside. After the years of havoc that the IMF has wreaked on Latin America and southeast Asia during their most brutal dictator years and in tandem with their sanguinary leaders (Pinochet anyone?), I no longer take the IMF and the WTO seriously.

You guys should read Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism by Naomi Klein. what an eye opener. As a South American I think you would find it very interesting, Alex Roney.

I completely agree. The World Bank has admitted that its policies have done more harm than good in Africa. :ohno:

^^ indeed. In Africa and elsewhere.

Namoi Klein is a leftist and like most leftists they can only criticize without presenting feasible and alternative socio-political programmes, we all know that the former communist countries were run by crooks that loved their own pockets, it was state-capitalism in its crudest form...and one of the reasons why it failed.

There is a difference between leftists and communists. They are not one and the same. You can't just lump people like that and generalize. Furthermore, Klein does in fact present alternatives. She frequently speaks of the Scandinavian model of government, and basically champions any government that can think for itself and implement policies that primarily and above all benefit its own people and not foreign corporate interests.

But back to the IMF stats.

Communist were those actors that realised (more or less) or pretended to realsies that what was preached by the different "leftist theories".

And as for the Scandinavia model, this is not "perfect", it already shows cracks... if you are alluding to the generous social system.

and let´s be honest, do you think that a Scandinavian model could work in Africa where it even seems to be such a herculean task to keep streets clean or build proper sweage systems???

Africa´s political culture (neo-patrimonialism) is not conducive to introduction of social policies directed at the improvement of the lives of individuals.

So many leaders preached so much like that things would improve once they are in power, most of the times things have only got worse. Sad but true.