A road project of this massive size needs a thread of its own.

Project background from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganga_Expressway):

The Ganga Expressway Project was launched by Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mayawati after coming to power in 2007. The project aims to construct a 1047 km access controlled eight-laned expressway running along the Ganga river. This expressway will connect Greater Noida to Ballia thus ensuring high speed connectivity between the Eastern and Western boundaries of Uttar Pradesh. The project is expected to be completed in the next four years.

Relevant posts from the Highways thread:

Sept 5, 2007
Uttar Pradesh to get 1,000 km expressway (http://www.business-standard.com/common/storypage_c_online.php?leftnm=11&bKeyFlag=IN&autono=27283)
The Uttar Pradesh government today announced building of a 1,000 km, eight-lane expressway connecting Ballia in the east with Noida in the west at a cost of Rs 40,000 crore.

The expressway will be built entirely on private investment and the state government would only act as a facilitator.

The project would cut down the travel time between Varanasi and Delhi by about eight to ten hours.

Sept 5, 2007
I think it is an 850kms project, including the main highway + some spurs to connect to some of the major cities which are off the main highway.

Sept 5, 2007
Euromast had posted about it a week ago in the NCR thread. There it says the main highway would be 850km long. I guess the 1000kms figure includes links to important cities. And yeah,it has been christened the 'Ganga Expressway'

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/5201/29082007002011008qr0rf3.jpg


article from HT

UP CM announces Ganga Expressway (http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=62476757-ac25-4c23-96ea-13a5fdb74c0b&&Headline=UP+CM+announces+Ganga+Expressway)

Chief Minister Mayawati on Wednesday announced Rs 40,000 crore Ganga Expressway from Ballia to Noida on the left bank of the river Ganga.

The Cabinet on Wednesday gave approval to the 1000 kms long expressway project that is likely to be completed within three years. The central government has already given environmental clearance and the process for the appointment of consultants was underway.

The highway project would connect eastern and western UP and it would prove a boon for Poorvanchal, Mayawati told newsmen in Lucknow on Wednesday. It would also have seven link expressways connecting every region of the state with the main road. "It would boost development in Poorvanchal and Bundelkhand," Mayawati said and added the government would invite private investors to take up the eight-lane expressway. Since it is along the banks of river Ganga, the irrigation department headed by minister Nasimuddin Siddique would be the main government agency.

"Conceived in private sector the government would only be a facilitator," the chief minister said. The project would also help in controlling the perennial problem of flood and land erosion, she said. The farmers would be able to quickly transport perishable farm products to the market, Mayawati said.

The Cabinet Secretary Shashank Shekhar Singh said "it would be a toll road" but the viability of the project with such a huge investment could not be only on the basis of toll and the investors would be allowed to develop industrial and commercial hubs and residential colonies along with route. The expressway would run 3 to 5 kms away from the river and irrigation department would provide the land. Ruling out the possibility of any major displacement of people, Singh said the investors would also acquire land under the project.

By January 2008 the chief minister would lay foundation of the project, he said and added the techno-economic feasibility report would be available within the next few months. He said the original cost of the expressway would be Rs 26000 crore and the remaining Rs 14000 crore expenditure would be on other infrastructure development.

The seven link ways would however be developed in the future, the chief minister said. Ganga Expressway would pass through Gautam Buddha Nagar, Bulandshahr, Badaun, Shahjehanpur, Fatehgarh, Farrukhabad, Hardoi, Unnao, Rae Bareli, Pratapgarh, Allahabad, Sant Ravidasnagar, Mirzapur, Varanasi, Ghazipur and Ballia.

Sept5 2007

Here's another map from the Telegraph simply connecting Noida and Ballia

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5526/gangaexpresswayql7.jpg


Dec31 2007:
Maya to open Ganga Expressway on Jan 15

UTTAR Pradesh Chief Minister Mayawati will be in Gautam Budh Nagar district on January 15, which is also her birthday, to inaugurate the muchtalked about Ganga Expressway in Greater Noida.
A special helipad is under construction at the place of inauguration in Jaganpur village. The helipad could cost the Public Works Department a few crore rupees but officials refused to comment.

Jan6 2008:
Ganga Expressway gets going, winning bidders on Jan 14
Authorities have moved fast to implement the 1,000-km-long Ganga Expressway in Uttar Pradesh, within weeks of the invitation of technical bids. Four private sector winners who would build the Rs 40,000-crore project will be announced as early as January 14, informed sources said.

"Financial bids for the project will be opened on January 13 and winning bidders will be announced on the next day while work on the project will commence on January 15 as per the directives UP chief minister Ms Mayawati," a senior official in the Uttar Pradesh government told Hindustan Times.

Infrastructure developers including DLF, Unitech, Reliance Energy and the Japyee Group are among the frontrunners in the race to build the project, which would link Ballia in the remote, underdeveloped part of the state to the national capital's suburb of Noida, throwing up a key infrastructure lifeline aimed at boosting all-round economic growth in the state.

The eight–lane expressway would be built on the left bank of the Ganga, with the state government acting as a facilitator for the project.

The state government had invited technical bids from interested bidders last month and 18 private consortia were shortlisted.

Uttar Pradesh government's UP Expressway Development Authority will form a special purpose vehicle with each of the winning bidder and according to the sources each winning bidder will be given a 250-km stretch to build the expressway

According to the plan, the developer was to be announced on 14th January but the news of JP group bagging the project came out a day before.

Jan 13:
Maya's dream project gets to the next stage. But will the opposition parties (irrespective of right or left), whose only work is opposing projects, scuttle the project?

JP bags Rs 30,000 crore UP expressway project
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/JP_bags_UP_expressway_project/articleshow/2697365.cms

Delhi-based Jaiprakash (JP) Associates bagged the controversial Rs 30,000 crore Ganga expressway project, to be built from Greater Noida to Balia. The total length of the expressway will be 1,000 km and will be completed in four years. UP CM Mayawati will lay the foundation stone for the project on Monday.

A senior official of a company which had bid for the project said that JP bid was very aggressive as they quoted around 50% lower than Reliance Energy, the second lowest bidder. The entire stretch is devided into four sectors - Greater Noida to Fatehgarh of 253 Km, Fatehgarh to Dalmau (305 km), Dalmau to Aurai of 211 (km) and Aurai to Balia 278 (km).

Most of the political parties including Samajwadi Party, BJP, Congress and political organization like Jan Morcha led by former PM Vishwanath Pratap Singh are opposing the project as it will lead to acquisition of the fertile land along the river Ganga.

Jan14 08:

the Ganga Expressway will be launched today

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/72/gangaexpresswayuu7.jpg


The UP govt has also made a comprehensive rehabilitation policy -

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1786/15012008015001eu5.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=15012008015001eu5.jpg)


http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8742/gangaexpressbigxk2.jpg

Jan 15:
JP bags Ganga Expressway Project

Video:
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/videopod/default.aspx?id=22231


Apr 14:

here are some details on the Ganga Expressway from a 2 week old article. Interesting to note that work will simultaneously begin in all districts and will not be carried out in a phased manner as we were earlier informed (http://www.moneycontrol.com/india/news/pressmarket/omaxe-bid-for-dvlpmtganga-expressway-project/18/10/316243).

Jaypee Group upbeat on expressway (http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Jaypee-Group-upbeat-on-expressway/290978/2)

Lucknow, Mar 31 With the signing of the 35-year concession agreement for the ambitious 1047-km-long Ganga Expressway project from Noida to Ballia, between the Jaypee Group and the Uttar Pradesh Expressways Industrial Development Authority, decks have been cleared to put the project on the fast track.

The group has opened offices in all the 16 districts, through which the expressway would pass and a nodal officer appointed in them all. Speaking to FE, Samir Gaur, director of the newly formed Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV), Jaypee Ganga Infrastructure Corporation, said work has already begun on the technical and engineering front. "Our technical team is already working on finalising the design and the alignment of the project and will submit its project report soon. On the other hand, work on the land acquisition will start as soon as the alignment of the expressway is finalised. Once we know which villages and tehsils the expressway would cut through, we will start identifying the owners of the land and acquire it."

Regarding the business plan of the company and as to how it is planning the financial closure of the project, which is to be submitted within nine months, Gaur said that this is not going to be an issue. "The important thing that banks see is whether the company is stable. While we have almost 48% equity within the group, around 35% is owned by the banks and FIIs. The valuation of the Taj Expressway project, in which ICICI Ventures is our lead bank, is in itself 25,000 crore. We do not foresee any problem in presenting our financial closure at the right time. Once we start land acquisition, banks will gain confidence in the project and come forward. There is no dearth of lenders these days if any project is viable," he stated.

When asked from which end would work on the expressway commence first, Gaur said, "We will begin work simultaneously from all the 16 districts. The target of completing work in 4 years is very tough and we cannot afford to begin work in phases. For us, it is a 24x7 work schedule, which only can help us in finishing off at the expected time."

It may be mentioned that the Jaypee Group, one of the 5 bidders who had come forward for developing the Ganga Expressway, had asked for minimum development rights.

They had also asked for minimum land for development: 30,000 acre, out of which 20,000 acre have been identified in Patiali tehsil in Etah itself, while the remaining 10,000 acre of land parcels have been identified in Allahabad, Mirzapur, Varanasi, Pratapgarh, Rae Bareli, Unnao, and Bulandshahr. "Almost 80% of the land along the expressway's path is arid and barren, which is literally, of no use to the farmers. We do not think any farmer would not want to sell of wasteland and get a good compensation in lieu of it, as well as have development and its resultant fringe benefits at his doorstep," added Gaur optimistically.

UP is a doombed state. this will take decades to get off the floor. dont hold your breath on this one.

UP is a doombed state. this will take decades to get off the floor. dont hold your breath on this one.

Bro, this road project has been the fastest project to get off the ground and be tendered out to a developer. Mayawati announced this project in Sept07 and it got awarded to Jaypee Group in Jan08. If NHAI was constructing it, then they would have taken a good 2 years for it to be awarded to a developer. Read the last article to see how gung-ho Jaypee Group is.

Bro, this road project has been the fastest project to get off the ground and be tendered out to a developer. Mayawati announced this project in Sept07 and it got awarded to Jaypee Group in Jan08. If NHAI was constructing it, then they would have taken a good 2 years for it to be awarded to a developer. Read the last article to see how gung-ho Jaypee Group is.

Sure, NHAI has typically been slower. But there is an apples to oranges comparison there. In most of the NHAI projects, the project design stage has been separated from the project implementation stage. First, NHAI tenders the project study to a design consultant. Based on techno-economic feasibility, a design for the project is drawn up (including alignment, locations of interchanges, bypasses etc.). Only after the design is finalized is the project tendered out for construction and simultaneously land is acquired (so that it is available before the project construction begins). In the Ganga expressway case, the tender is for design cum construction. And land has not been acquired before the project is tendered. The time consuming parts are design and land acquisition (largely the latter). Therefore, the NHAI timelines and Ganga expressway timelines are not strictly comparable.

Of course, NHAI is a bureaucracy and has its own delays due to political and administrative reasons.

Sure, NHAI has typically been slower. But there is an apples to oranges comparison there. In most of the NHAI projects, the project design stage has been separated from the project implementation stage. First, NHAI tenders the project study to a design consultant. Based on techno-economic feasibility, a design for the project is drawn up (including alignment, locations of interchanges, bypasses etc.). Only after the design is finalized is the project tendered out for construction and simultaneously land is acquired (so that it is available before the project construction begins). In the Ganga expressway case, the tender is for design cum construction. And land has not been acquired before the project is tendered. The time consuming parts are design and land acquisition (largely the latter). Therefore, the NHAI timelines and Ganga expressway timelines are not strictly comparable.

Of course, NHAI is a bureaucracy and has its own delays due to political and administrative reasons.

I generally don't get into the intricate details of the whole process so I explained whatever I had to in chai-paani terms. Whatever you said is true, but if you compare the time taken from the announcement of the project right to the time of opening, the GEx is planned to be executed in a much lesser time than the proposed 1000kms of expressway by NHAI which is also based on the same Design, Build, Finance and Operate method like the GEx. NHAI had first made their expressway plans clear in 2006 and last time I read, they said that the entire 1000kms will be completed only by 2015. In GEx's case they plan to complete the project in 2012. Ofcourse land acquisition and opposition from the opposition party will play a role in the execution date but till then I am glad that atleast they've set the ball rolling.

... The Ganga Expressway Project was launched by Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mayawati after coming to power in 2007. The project aims to construct a 1047 km access controlled eight-laned expressway running along the Ganga river. This expressway will connect Greater Noida to Ballia thus ensuring high speed connectivity between the Eastern and Western boundaries of Uttar Pradesh. The project is expected to be completed in the next four years...



Lucknow, Mar 31 With the signing of the 35-year concession agreement for the ambitious 1047-km-long Ganga Expressway project from Noida to Ballia, between the Jaypee Group and the Uttar Pradesh Expressways Industrial Development Authority, decks have been cleared to put the project on the fast track.

The group has opened offices in all the 16 districts, through which the expressway would pass and a nodal officer appointed in them all. Speaking to FE, Samir Gaur, director of the newly formed Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV), Jaypee Ganga Infrastructure Corporation, said work has already begun on the technical and engineering front. "Our technical team is already working on finalising the design and the alignment of the project and will submit its project report soon. On the other hand, work on the land acquisition will start as soon as the alignment of the expressway is finalised. Once we know which villages and tehsils the expressway would cut through, we will start identifying the owners of the land and acquire it."

Regarding the business plan of the company and as to how it is planning the financial closure of the project, which is to be submitted within nine months, Gaur said that this is not going to be an issue. "The important thing that banks see is whether the company is stable. While we have almost 48% equity within the group, around 35% is owned by the banks and FIIs. The valuation of the Taj Expressway project, in which ICICI Ventures is our lead bank, is in itself 25,000 crore. We do not foresee any problem in presenting our financial closure at the right time. Once we start land acquisition, banks will gain confidence in the project and come forward. There is no dearth of lenders these days if any project is viable," he stated.

... "We will begin work simultaneously from all the 16 districts. The target of completing work in 4 years is very tough and we cannot afford to begin work in phases. For us, it is a 24x7 work schedule, which only can help us in finishing off at the expected time."...

They had also asked for minimum land for development: 30,000 acre, out of which 20,000 acre have been identified in Patiali tehsil in Etah itself, while the remaining 10,000 acre of land parcels have been identified in Allahabad, Mirzapur, Varanasi, Pratapgarh, Rae Bareli, Unnao, and Bulandshahr...

wow! what a daredevil project. I wish every state in India should start one such road project.

Yeah.....this is huge.

Hope they have good eco plan.

I generally don't get into the intricate details of the whole process so I explained whatever I had to in chai-paani terms. Whatever you said is true, but if you compare the time taken from the announcement of the project right to the time of opening, the GEx is planned to be executed in a much lesser time than the proposed 1000kms of expressway by NHAI which is also based on the same Design, Build, Finance and Operate method like the GEx. NHAI had first made their expressway plans clear in 2006 and last time I read, they said that the entire 1000kms will be completed only by 2015. In GEx's case they plan to complete the project in 2012. Ofcourse land acquisition and opposition from the opposition party will play a role in the execution date but till then I am glad that atleast they've set the ball rolling.
Point taken. Let's hope that the project gets completed within the schedule. It will be a huge boost to the infrastructure of UP and India as a whole and it can transform our highway landscape drastically as other states learn from this and start thinking in an ambitious way as well.

^^ Ditto on that.

Massive project! Once get done, it will not only benefit UP but also Bihar, West Bengal, the North East and other parts of the country :cheers:

Old news but has not yet been posted.

Ganga Expressway alignment plan submitted

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Ganga-Expressway-alignment-plan-submitted/337001/

i was skeptical about the project from the very beginning but a relative of mine who works for a firm busy preparing DPR for the project said that its very much on.
The DPR would be submitted to the govt in 6 months from now along with all the environmental implications. The land acquisition process would start then.

Meanwhile work on the first stretch of 25 Km of Yamuna Expressway has started on the land where the Noida - Greater Noida E'way ends.

Will get the necessary updates as and when possible.

Meanwhile work on the first stretch of 25 Km of Yamuna Expressway has started on the land where the Noida - Greater Noida E'way ends.

Will get the necessary updates as and when possible.

thanks for the info

Has there been any news on this lately?

we all know oim a bit tik but . .
surely the GQ section from dehli to calcutta does this, or a very similar route?Are they gonna run next to each other or am i missing something?

No, Calcutta-Delhi route is a very busy route..and this will def help expedite interstate commerce amongst the Northern states like UP and Bihar along with North Eastern States like WB and the seven sisters, and with Eastern States like Orissa and Jharkand.

I hope UP govt takes care of the flooding business in UP & Bihar. Hope these idiots are making it elevated enuf & doesnt get drowned every year in monsoon floods.:bash:

Last thing you wanna see is a latest state-of-the-art multi billion $$$ 8-laned expressway fully flooded in moonsoon rains throughout the state. :nuts:

Post-Singur: expressway developer takes steps to avoid land row

Fri, Sep 5 02:11 AM

A Singur in Uttar Pradesh? No way, says Samir Gaur, director of Jaypee Group, which won the development rights for the Rs 40,000 crore, 1047-km Ganga Expressway that would traverse from Ballia on the eastern fringes of the state to the national capital region in Greater Noida.

With the group kicking off its land acquisition plans by submitting its proposal to acquire land from 17 villages of Bukandshahr in its first package to the UP Expressway Industrial Development Authority, the ball has set rolling for the highly ambitious project. It may be mentioned that a staggering 30,000 acres of land has to be acquired along 17 districts.

The alignment plan for the project has been finalised and given in-principle approval by the government after roadblocks regarding the alignment at Narora and Varanasi were cleared. While the alignment in Narora had to be shifted slightly due to the Narora atomic power station as well as a dolphin sanctuary, a turtle sanctuary near Benaras was the reason why the alignment had to be changed before being approved by the state government.

What would be a balm on the shaky morale of India Inc, Gaur said that he did not foresee a Singur-like impasse happening in Uttar Pradesh. "Already, we have 70 survey teams on the ground, preparing a detailed project report and our nodal offices in all the 17 districts are working round the clock on the designing aspect. Once the government clears our proposal, we will start acquiring land and also make sure that we do not have any situation of strife here, for we have always striven to take everyone along with us. We would make sure that we convince the peasants of the benefits of the projects and explain to them the way development can change life for the better for them, too."

When asked what could be the solution to growing opposition of farmers, which is acting as a severe deterrent to industrialisation in the country, Gaur was of the opinion that the farmer must be made comfortable and taken along on the path of development. "Land is definitely a scarce commodity and the only way to ensure food security for the farmers. Hence, all efforts must be made to give him a good price for his piece of land." On the issue of coming out with more innovative compensation packages like employment, partnerships and shareholding, Gaur seemed open to it and said the company is keenly studying on all the other patterns of compensation that could be offered to the land owners. "We would follow the Central government's resettlement and rehabilitation policy and do all that is possible for the displaced farmers," he added.

Simultaneous to the process of acquiring land, the company is also in talks with many national and international construction firms for the construction of the four packages that the project comprises of. The project has been divided into four individual packages of road sections. It may be mentioned that the state government has an ambitious plan to develop the Expressway as the industrial development corridor of the state. "The Ganga Expressway project will not only be a highway, but would provide us with ample space and opportunity for developing SEZs along its 1,047 km stretch," said a senior government official.

This is a big dream. In order to complete 1047 km stretch, they will have to dream big and get all the things cleared first- environmental clearances, slum areas and things like that.

my geographies just not good enough.looks like there right on top of each other.
cant get enough roads. . .

I hope UP govt takes care of the flooding business in UP & Bihar. Hope these idiots are making it elevated enuf & doesnt get drowned every year in monsoon floods.:bash:

Last thing you wanna see is a latest state-of-the-art multi billion $$$ 8-laned expressway fully flooded in moonsoon rains throughout the state. :nuts:

As I recall, the project is not just a road but a flood control measure as well. It will act as a levy. Hence, rather than get flooded itself, it will ensure that all the land north of the Ganga never gets flooded again.

And yes, I agree that Bihar should find the will to extend this through their state as well. Of course, the recent flooding was due to the Kosi changing its alignment, so a Ganga levy would not have helped at all.

Here is the latest update of on ganga expressway what Samajwadi Party supremo and former Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister, Mulayam Singh Yadav today said

Source : http://www.saharasamay.com (http://www.saharasamay.com/samayhtml/articles.aspx?newsid=105761)

Is this seriously under constuction. I cant believe that they found space in in state with a population of 190 million!

The alignment of the massive Ganga Expressway project in Uttar Pradesh has been finalised, it is learnt. Preliminary work for land acquisition for the Rs 30,000-crore project has begun. Work on the 1,047-km eight-lane expressway is likely to start by this year end. :banana:
Jaypee Industries (Jaiprakash Group) emerged as the lowest bidder for the project, outbidding other contenders like Reliance Infrastructure, Gammon India, Unitech and Zoom Developers. Financial bids were opened in January this year. In July, nodal agency UP Expressway Industrial Development Authority submitted the alignment study made by the developer to the Uttar Pradesh government that suggested some changes.
The expressway running along the Ganga River will connect Greater Noida to Ballia thus providing east-west connectivity to Uttar Pradesh, traversing 13 districts en route. The project had turned controversial as it involved large-scale acquisition of agricultural land.

Visit the link
http://www.projectsmonitor.com/detailnews.asp?newsid=17294&secid=41

Date:30/05/2009 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2009/05/30/stories/2009053059400500.htm

Ganga Expressway hits a major roadblock

Atiq Khan
High Court asks UP Govt to get environmental clearance
30,000-crore project was announced by Mayawati in 2007
Court also quashes clearance certificate produced by State Government

LUCKNOW: In a major setback to the Mayawati Government, a Division Bench of the Allahabad High Court on Friday restrained it from proceeding with the mammoth Ganga Expressway project in Uttar Pradesh.

The Court directed the State Government to obtain prior environmental clearance before proceeding with the construction work on the ambitious road project.

Ecology hazards: The order was passed by a Division Bench of Justice Ashok Bhushan and Justice Arun Tandon on a petition filed by a Varanasi-based social organisation, Ganga Mahasabha. In its petition, the organisation said large parts of the State would be exposed to many environmental hazards by the expressway project.

In its order, the Bench restrained the Government from proceeding with the highway project until it obtained due clearance from the State-level Environment Impact Assessment Authority “in accordance with law”. The Court quashed a clearance certificate produced by the State Government, saying that it had not been obtained “in accordance with law”.

Time period: The 1047-km-long access-controlled Greater Noida-Ballia eight-lane expressway project is planned to be built along the left bank of the Ganga at an estimated cost of Rs.30,000 crore, aimed at bridging the gap between the backward Eastern UP and the developed areas of Western UP. The project was announced by Chief Minister Mayawati on September 6, 2007. At the time of its launch the project was expected to be completed in four years. When built, the travel time from Ballia to Noida would be reduced to about ten hours.

Four sectors: The Ganga Expressway project was divided into four sectors: Greater Noida to Fatehgarh via Bulandshahr (253 km), Fatehgarh to Dalmau (Rae Bareli) (305 km), Dalmau to Aurai in Bhadohi (211 km), and Aurai to Ballia (278 km).

To be built on the public-private partnership (PPP) model, the contract for developing the expressway was awarded to Jaypee Group by the UP Government on January 15, 2008. The concession agreement was signed with the State Government by Jaypee Ganga Infrastructure Corporation in March 2008. The concession period is 35 years with the company allowed to charge toll for 35 years.

Right from its inception, the highway project hit several road blocks, mainly those associated with the alignment of the eight-lane expressway.

The opposition mainly came from farmers, with some organisations and political parties throwing in their weight behind the agitating farmers.

This was because of the fact that about 70 per cent of the land earmarked for the project is farm land. According to informed sources, only about 10 per cent of this land was with the State Government.

Several sops were announced by the Chief Minister for the farmers whose land would be acquired for building the project, including free residential properties and quotas in jobs.

I wish there was more information on the environmental impact/study done on the project. I tried googling, and came up a cropper. If anybody has some information, please do post it.

Ganga Expressway a dead end for Mayawati (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ganga-expressway-a-dead-end-for-mayawati/463891/)

Posted: Friday , May 22, 2009 at 0007 hrs IST

One reason why the Ganga Expressway failed to win admirers was that there has been little work on the project. Even land acquisition is incomplete. Sources in the Government said the project was deliberately put on hold to avoid farmers’ agitations over land acquisition as over 62,000 hectares will be required. The Government has already faced strong agitation of farmers during the acquisition of land for the Yamuna Expressway. Incidentally, the SP and the BJP, had been raising the issue of floods and displacement of farmers.

I feel that one reason why land acquisition problems come up again and again is for two reasons - the government trying to get the land owners to accept land rates that are much less than market rates, and lack of alternative options for farmers and their families.

I feel places like Gurgaon and other areas of NCR did not face such problems because the private players were awash with money and they paid handsomely for the farmlands. Plus the average profile of the farmer in the NCR region is vastly different from a farmer from the Ganges hinterland.

Coming to the environmental problems, I am really curious to know them. The media quoted that the expressway alignment has followed all the guidelines of the governmental agency for flood protection. But that is just one aspect. The last thing I want to see is this expressway hurt The Ganges in any way.

Is this Expressway a part of the Golden Quadrilateral or a separate expwy?

Is this Expressway a part of the Golden Quadrilateral or a separate expwy?

cant be part of GQ thats almost completed or if fully completed by now. This is totally seperate.

cant be part of GQ thats almost completed or if fully completed by now. This is totally seperate.

But both almost follow the same paths.
Delhi - kanpur - allahabad - varanasi.

So why 2 Expwys on same routes?

^NH2 is not an expressway. Grade separation on it is very minimal.

it is much better to add grade separation on NH2 and make it 8 lane instead of building a new 30K crore road so near to NH2 ........ does not make any sense to me
^NH2 is not an expressway. Grade separation on it is very minimal.

it is much better to add grade separation on NH2 and make it 8 lane instead of building a new 30K crore road so near to NH2 ........ does not make any sense to me

Don't worry, Its Mayawati. she got many other important things to do than building an expressway.

it is much better to add grade separation on NH2 and make it 8 lane instead of building a new 30K crore road so near to NH2 ........ does not make any sense to me

i think the expressway is also supposed to act as a buffer to prevent the Ganga from flooding. If the expressway gets built, NH2 may not require further upgrades. It is very unfortunate that it is the state govts that are taking up these expressway projects and not the central govt.

I don't see anything wrong with building another parallel expressway. Though the US does have far more space, nonetheless most Interstates were built in a method similar to the Ganga Expressway. Existing roads, the US Highways, were left intact, while limited-access Interstates were built in parallel. It's important to leave a parallel intercity route for traffic that cannot use a limited access road.

But both almost follow the same paths.
Delhi - kanpur - allahabad - varanasi.

So why 2 Expwys on same routes?

Infact this issue was raised by NHAI as well. They said building a parallel expressway will make many stretches on NH-2 unviable for BOT. But 8 laning NH-2 is also not a good option as it goes through many cities, which means building many bypasses. And I feel that the country should first focus on improving the existing infrastructure (FYI: India has 3.3 million km of roads which is 2nd longest in world) rather than looking for a parallel interstate system.

Anyways we cannot challenge Behen Ji's decisions :nono:

Can we expect statues of some netas or babus showing distances instead of the milestones on this expressway?:lol::lol::lol:

I don't see anything wrong with building another parallel expressway. Though the US does have far more space, nonetheless most Interstates were built in a method similar to the Ganga Expressway. Existing roads, the US Highways, were left intact, while limited-access Interstates were built in parallel. It's important to leave a parallel intercity route for traffic that cannot use a limited access road.

except that in this case, this is mostly the traffic that the expressway will see probably. For freighters travelling between north India and east India, it would make sense for them to take one direct highway (in this case the GQ).

I don't see anything wrong with building another parallel expressway. Though the US does have far more space, nonetheless most Interstates were built in a method similar to the Ganga Expressway. Existing roads, the US Highways, were left intact, while limited-access Interstates were built in parallel. It's important to leave a parallel intercity route for traffic that cannot use a limited access road.

In this case, both of them seem to have exactly the same number of Exits for the same Cities. That will be of no help whatsoever.

This is just pathetic. Those farmers whose land has been taken, what do they do now? Their land is gone, and no highway either.

This is setting a very bad precedent, and will probably lead to even more protests next time land needs to be acquired for similar projects.

i think no land had been acquired till date..
it was just in the inception stage..
the contract was given and when the actual construction had to begin it hit the roadblock..
agitating farmers, political parties and the never satisfied ecologists..

IMO blaming the environmentalists and farmers are just excuses. If the government is sincere about the project, all parties can be satisfied and work can begin.

I never thought it possible before DMRC, but the fact is that Sreedharan has set a new precedent that will need to be followed, or else there will be serious social discontent in the future.

India's largest state cannot possibly be left behind while the rest of India progresses. It will be unsustainable.

i think no land had been acquired till date..
it was just in the inception stage..
the contract was given and when the actual construction had to begin it hit the roadblock..
agitating farmers, political parties and the never satisfied ecologists..

IMO blaming the environmentalists and farmers are just excuses. If the government is sincere about the project, all parties can be satisfied and work can begin.

I never thought it possible before DMRC, but the fact is that Sreedharan has set a new precedent that will need to be followed, or else there will be serious social discontent in the future.

India's largest state cannot possibly be left behind while the rest of India progresses. It will be unsustainable.

their was a strong political will plus a huge international pressure on the Govt Of India/Delhi in wake of the C'wealth games..
one can't expect the same to happen with say kolkata Metro if Mr Sreedharan takes charge with Didi and her goons (with some impotent CPI(M) leaders) pulling every string possible..
this is in spite the fact that there are no second thoughts about that man's capabilities..

u can say that to a large extent that the problem related to land acquisition is politically motivated but the absence of a proper rehab policy one has to be very skeptical about it..thinking of driving on a snazzy highway seems pretty amazing but one must also understand that its being done at the cost of people losing their livelihoods..and yeah some even shamefully brand it as for a greater good..but u and I for instance won't do it at our own cost..unless of course we are given a price at which the govt auctions the land to private buiders ;)

^Erm, highways are not for driving pleasure buddy. A good highway system will bring industry and development to vast portions of UP which are as poor as sub-saharan africa.

^^ we already have a highway in place..
why not upgrade it??
why is there a need to develop a parallel road system??
in no other country i have heard of a normal highway and a parallel exp'way..

Well I'm not sure about that. I assumed that the highway was planned as a development project and not a convenience for luxury-car driving pleasure seekers.

^^ we already have a highway in place..
why not upgrade it??
why is there a need to develop a parallel road system??
in no other country i have heard of a normal highway and a parallel exp'way..

dude if u see my post again I said that we may love to drive down the snazzy highways..u understood it all wrong..its just a way of phrasing things..
this by no means mean
"convenience for luxury-car driving pleasure seekers"
or
"highways are not for driving pleasure buddy"

^^ we already have a highway in place..
why not upgrade it??
why is there a need to develop a parallel road system??
in no other country i have heard of a normal highway and a parallel exp'way..

Coz its either expressway or local roads in other countries. Even if there is a thing called highway, then there is road/highway where speed limit is around 55 mph. If you can call this a highway, then there is expressway running parallel to it.

so in essence just one system of intercity roads right??
in India's case a National highway connecting the cities is in place..
so upgrading it would mean:
1) Less amount of acquisition of land
2) Less no of trees to be felled and hence less environmental damage.
3) Speedy completion of the project cuz its just an upgrade
4) Smaller amount to be spent as against building an entirely new highway/exp'way.

^^ we already have a highway in place..
why not upgrade it??
why is there a need to develop a parallel road system??
in no other country i have heard of a normal highway and a parallel exp'way..

Then read up. Much of the limited-access US Interstate system is built parallel to U.S. Highways, non limited-access roads akin to the Indian NHs. Along every Interstate are many other high-speed U.S. Highways, State Highways, etc. How can a single highway serve such a huge population as Eastern UP's?

Point taken. Let's hope that the project gets completed within the schedule. It will be a huge boost to the infrastructure of UP and India as a whole and it can transform our highway landscape drastically as other states learn from this and start thinking in an ambitious way as well.
My 2 paisa ...

As mentioned earlier ... everything in UP ... hehe ... Ultaa-Pradesh ... is to be interpreted in ... chai-paani/chillum-chilli ... terms.

So .. wotis JP grp. ... whois ... Anil Gaur ... waasup re: biz planning.

Point 1. JP is Saadi Dilli Co. Meaning all politics ... Mayawati & Congress type Co.
Point 2. JP is destination for ambitious ex-army types ... along with Jindal Grp. JP executives prefer to be called Major saab, Colonel saab ... hehe ... all the goondas in
Ultaa Pradesh ... hehe .. know better ... tahn to ... eff ... around with army types ... UP .... don't forget ... is prime time border badland country ... china .. & worse ... China proxy ... Maoist (terrorist) nepal ... In northern districts of UP & Bihar ... road side chaiwallas carry around genuine India Republic Passports ... and work in nepal re: seasonal chai biz. re: tourist season ... don't forget Buddist tour circuit ...

Mesays ... JP Grp. with their x-army (...read Commando Mafia ... hehe ) + Mayawati/Congress toss-up ... I'll bet GEx will get done ... maybe beat deadline?

Don't tell me JP doing ... GR8TEST NOIDA (... after OKHLa, New OKHLA, NOIDA, Greater Noida ... ) or is is it ... Maya Noida or Buddha Noida ... I'm curios re: concession SEZ or new towns by JP ... whereis .. anybody ... ???

^^ Wat the fuck did you juzz say?

now this is called mykeyboardbardontwork.

Dated - Oct 6, 2009

Uttar Pradesh farmers today demanded scrapping of the Ganga Expressway Project (GEP) alleging it was a conspiracy to render them unemployed and landless, while raising questions about the mega project’s legality and environmental feasibility.

The work on the Rs 30,000-crore project had come to halt on May 29, 2009, when the Allahabad High Court ordered the state government to get the project cleared by the environment ministry.

“Despite the High Court order, the survey work is still on, which is tantamount to contempt of court,” Ganga Krishi Bhumi Mukti Abhiyaan Samanvai Samiti (GKBMASS) spokesperson Sanjay Singh told Business Standard.

He said the state government and concessionaire Jaypee Group officials were ‘luring’ the naïve farmers into parting with their land.

“Our agitation is not on the issue of compensation for the land, which is higher than the prevailing market rate, but this project will render the farmers without any livelihood,” he said.

The samiti is the umbrella body of all the organisations protesting the GEP, including Ganga Mahasabha, Krishi Bhumi Bachao Morcha, Pashupalak Sangh, Paryavaran Sachetak Samiti etc.

“We will intensify our agitation from October 16 at the district level. From November onwards, committees will be constituted in all the villages and from February ‘Kisan Chetna Yatras’ will be organised from Ballia district to Noida,” he said.

The committee has also announced boycotting products of Jaypee Group and the celebrities endorsing them.

“We will form self-help groups and distribute pamphlets and booklets in local dialect for creating awareness on this issue,” Singh added.

The samiti will file a contempt petition in the High Court (HC).

In May this year, the alignment process by Jaypee was nearing completion, when the HC order came.

“We are taking steps for seeking the fresh environment clearance as directed by the court,” a company had earlier said. The court had ordered halting the project on separate petitions filed by Vindhya Environmental Society (VEM), Mirzapur and Hindu Mahasabha, questioning its environmental feasibility.

The HC quashed the earlier environmental clearance noting there were gaps in the preliminary clearance, wherein some procedures had been bypassed or short-circuited.

The 1, 047-km expressway between Greater Noida and Ballia will traverse through Bulandshahr, Aligarh, Badaun, Kanshi Ram Nagar, Farrukhabad, Shahjahanpur, Hardoi, Unnao, Rae Bareli, Pratapgarh, Allahabad, Mirzapur, Sant Ravi Das Nagar, Varanasi and Ghazipur districts.

The state government said the project was necessary to give a filip to trade and regional development in the region, especially eastern UP.

The expressway is proposed to be developed on the left side of the Ganga and reduce travel time considerably.

UP Expressway Industrial Development Authority (UPEIDA) is the lead government agency involved in the project, which was awarded to Jaypee after bidding in January 2008. The project was divided into four parts and bids were invited for each part separately. Jaypee, which bid for all the four parts, was awarded the four contracts. The project, which follows design, build, finance and operate (DBFO) model, was originally scheduled to be completed by 2012.

Source (http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/up-farmers-oppose-ganga-expressway-project/372294/)

Dated - Nov 10, 2009

The Allahabad High Court on Monday issued notices to UP Chief Secretary Atul Kumar Gupta, Ganga Expressway Chief Executive Officer Ravindra Singh, J P Infrastructure Chairman Manoj Gaur, the District Magistrate and the Additional SP of Mirzapur on a contempt petition alleging that they were working on a project in Mirzapur in violation of the court’s May 29 order to stop all work and obtain fresh environmental clearance.

Justice D P Singh asked state counsel M C Chaturvedi to serve the notices and get replies before the next hearing on December 2. The court also ordered that work on the project be stopped immediately.

A K Gupta, counsel of the petitioner Ganga Mahasabha, alleged that despite the court’s order, the state government and the JP group were conducting a survey and acquiring land in Mirzapur. “The DM and the ASP of Mirzapur were actively involved in helping the JP Group in the land acquisition,” Gupta alleged.

Chaturvedi, however, told the court that no construction or land acquisition was going on and that the petitioner had an “ulterior motive to stall the development project”.

The court had on May 29 quashed the Environmental Clearance Certificate obtained by the government from State Level Environmental Impact Assessment Authority, saying it did not follow all four stages of process as laid down in the Environment Protection Act. It ordered that all work on the project be stopped and asked the government to obtain fresh certificate “within the guidelines laid down by Environment Protection Act 1986”.

Source (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hc-issues-notice-on-ganga-expressway/539502/2)

Dated - Oct 6, 2009



Source (http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/up-farmers-oppose-ganga-expressway-project/372294/)

Ganga Krishi Bhumi Mukti Abhiyaan Samanvai Samiti: GKBMASS

WOW :lol: :lol:

Farmers opposition issue needs to be resolved asap otherwise like all projects, this will take decades to complete.

i wonder why people are still talking about this project..
hasn't it already been shelved??

i wonder why people are still talking about this project..
hasn't it already been shelved??

IMO it is still on as of now. Maybe they will have to change alignment.

nothings gonna change..
believe me..
it'll be optimistic to say that the project will see the light of the day..
there are a lots of mamtas out there alongwith the mayas and Mulayams
(interestingly all the names start with M ;) ) who'll make sure the fund allocated goes into their coffers..

nothings gonna change..
believe me..
it'll be optimistic to say that the project will see the light of the day..
there are a lots of mamtas out there alongwith the mayas and Mulayams
(interestingly all the names start with M ;) ) who'll make sure the fund allocated goes into their coffers..

Add gowdas for BMIC.such projects have suffered.............

nothings gonna change..
believe me..
it'll be optimistic to say that the project will see the light of the day..
there are a lots of mamtas out there alongwith the mayas and Mulayams
(interestingly all the names start with M ;) ) who'll make sure the fund allocated goes into their coffers..

I also feel that there is actually no need of an 8 lane expressway and that too almost parallel to 4 lane NH-2 which is going to be mostly 6 lane in few years under NHDP Phase-V. Some people may argue that it will bring more development or we should build thinking of future requirements. For those I would ask them to visit UP and see its highways themselves. It would be better to upgrade thousands of kms of existing potholed highways that making a super expressway in barren land.

But since Mayawati is after it, we may see it some day as it may help her bring more votes, even if nobody uses it. Also there can be a lot of land scams under the garb of it.

Well I'm not sure about that. I assumed that the highway was planned as a development project and not a convenience for luxury-car driving pleasure seekers.

In my opinion

1.) There should be a military rule then only we can progress otherwise even a neta with only 2 supporters will stop all the projects, road block or train jam etc., or they will drag matter in courts and environments danger hype etc.
2.) Yeah, its right Mayawati or every politician are interested in money deals and businessmen always contact them with the projects so that both can make money and public goes to hell.

We should build a fast speed rail network, it is very famous story how general motors/automobile lobby derails the bullet train projects in USA.

We should build high speed mass transport rail network it will less congestion in the airways and roadways. We will be less dependent on oil which is imported and their will be less pollution also.

I agree with you 'Anidel'.

This is an excellent thread!! I though Mayawati could not sink any lower with her Caste Statue BS - but this might just be her saving grace. Its good to know our "All Bad" Politicians are evolving.

^^ this project is not going anywhere except for in papers..

The Ganga Expressway Project would affect 1,024 villages. These villages would come under the `right of way' (ROW) plan of the expressway. Surprisingly, the state government has no statistics regarding the population and the families which are going to be affected by the project. This came to light when a query was asked by corporator Kamlesh Singh under RTI Act. Kamlesh's question was: How many villages are going to be affected by the Ganga Expressway Project and what is the population of these villages and the number of families which are going to be affected? The answer has been provided by Prabhu Shankar, under secretary in Industrial Development Section of the state government through letter number 4261(1)/77-3-09, dated January 11.

To a question that how many hectares of agricultural land would be acquired and the quantity of crops produced there, the answer was: According to the directives of Allahabad High Court issued on May 29, 2009, the government was told to obtain clearance on environment. The department said that it would be able to give information regarding agricultural land only after obtaining clearance. Pointedly, 14,705 hectares of land would be acquired.

Source (http://indiarti.blogspot.com/2010/01/ganga-expressway-project-to-affect-1024.html)

The most ambitious project announced by Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mayawati, the Ganga Expressway, failed to impress voters even though it came along with a promise of development to the remotest parts of east UP. Of the 17districts through which the Expressway is supposed to pass, the BSP could win only two seats.

Mayawati laid the foundation stone for the Rs 30,000-crore 1,047-km Ganga Expressway joining Ballia in the far east of the state to Greater Noida on January 15, 2008. It was said to reduce the journey from Ballia to Delhi to less than eight hours and there were claims that the project would bring in huge investments in the hinterland.

As per the latest alignment report of JAL, which was assigned the project, the Expressway is to pass through Ballia, Ghazipur, Varanasi, Mirzapur, Allahabad, Pratapgarh, Rae Bareli, Unnao, Kanpur, Hardoi, Shahjahanpur, Farrukhabad, Etah, Badaun, Aligarh, Bulandshahr and Gautambudhnagar (Greater Noida). The BSP could win Gautambudhnagar and Aligarh. One reason why the Ganga Expressway failed to win admirers was that there has been little work on the project. Even land acquisition is incomplete. Sources in the Government said the project was deliberately put on hold to avoid farmers’ agitations over land acquisition as over 62,000 hectares will be required. The Government has already faced strong agitation of farmers during the acquisition of land for the Yamuna Expressway. Incidentally, the SP and the BJP, had been raising the issue of floods and displacement of farmers. ENS

^^ That's very old news. I read it a long time back. Or did elections happened once again ?

UP being the most populated state in the country - anytime any project being launched will irrevocably run into "Land Aquisition" problem. There are too many people - and the highest people density per square km. Does this mean NO development project should ever be initiated since every single one will involve displacement?

Sorry wrong thread..

UP being the most populated state in the country - anytime any project being launched will irrevocably run into "Land Aquisition" problem. There are too many people - and the highest people density per square km. Does this mean NO development project should ever be initiated since every single one will involve displacement?

highest density is of West Bengal(27,000 per sq km).....and population density is not the problem....UPs density is equal to Japan's....

What??? West bengal's density is around 900 per sq km not 27000

highest density is of West Bengal(27,000 per sq km).....and population density is not the problem....UPs density is equal to Japan's....

:lol:

:lol:

Well its certainly not funny by human standards of humor.....one can get some stats wrong sometimes.....but still WB is the most densely populated state of India...

Well its certainly not funny by human standards of humor.....one can get some stats wrong sometimes.....but still WB is the most densely populated state of India...

It does becomes funny by human standards of humour when you multiply a figure by 30.

Jaypee's huge outlay on Ganga Expressway project (http://beta.thehindu.com/business/companies/article412619.ece)

The Jaypee Group of Industries on Tuesday announced that it would invest Rs. 70,000 crore in the next five years to build the ambitious 1,047 km long Noida-Ballia Ganga Expressway project. It also said that the Yamuna Expressway project would be completed two years ahead of schedule by March 2011.

Addressing a press conference here to announce the opening of the forthcoming initial public offering (IPO) of Jaypee Infratech Limited to raise Rs. 1,650 crore, group Chairman J. P. Gaur said the Ganga Expressway project was ready and all the alignment works had been approved.

Jaypee Group firm Jaypee Ganga Infrastructure Corp had signed an agreement with Uttar Pradesh Expressways Industrial Development Authority (UPEIDA) in 2008 for constructing an eight-lane expressway connecting Greater Noida and Ballia. At present, Japyee Infratech was executing the Yamuna Expressway project connecting New Delhi with Agra. The project, originally scheduled for completion in April 2013, would be thrown open for traffic by April 2011, Jaypee Group Managing Director Manoj Gaur said.

Giving details of the Ganga Expressway project, Jaypee Infratech Director-in-Charge, Sameer Gaur, said “We have sorted out all the issues. We will acquire 33,000 acres for the project, of which the expressway will alone require 28,000 acres.”

He said the company would require about Rs. 70,000 crore for the entire project which will include land acquisition cost. Out of the total amount, the company would invest Rs. 35,000-38,000 crore in constructing the expressway, he added. Mr. Manoj Gaur said the firm would also develop 6,175 acres at five locations along the expressway for commercial, industrial, institutional, residential and amusement purposes.

The company will hit the capital market on April 29 with its IPO in which 6 crore shares would be issued by the existing promoters.

The IPO will be through 100 per cent book building process with the price band fixed at Rs. 102-117 per share.

I can see some great road construction from google earth. I think this is of the Ganga expressway only. It seems this road bypasses ALD and BSB and ends at Ballia (somewhere east of Sarnath). I am posting links of wikimapia here so eevryone can see it:
I think they are executing road in phases and work of all phases have not yet commenced.

Start of GANGA EXPRESSWAY phase X:

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.5759402&lon=81.5196383&z=17&l=0&m=s&v=9

Toll Plaza
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.5770144&lon=81.52982&z=17&l=0&m=s&v=9

Ganga river bridge of Ganga expressway:

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.5863431&lon=81.5436387&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9

Some more images:

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.6032568&lon=81.5911674&z=15&l=0&m=s&v=9

Intersection with NH 249-B
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.5630393&lon=81.7487097&z=15&l=0&m=s&v=9

Great turn:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.5665623&lon=81.7752314&z=15&l=0&m=s&v=9

Intersection with NH 96:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.5899428&lon=81.8389606&z=15&l=0&m=s&v=9

Expressway overbridge near phaphamau station (sultanpur line).
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.5887429&lon=81.8740547&z=18&l=0&m=s&v=9


ROB on Phaphamau-zafarabad line
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.5434773&lon=81.9475365&z=17&l=0&m=s&v=9

Intersection with SH 7
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.4909605&lon=81.9974041&z=17&l=0&m=s&v=9

End of phase:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.3684193&lon=82.1577573&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9
at Pokarav railway station.


I am damn sure that these works are of Ganga expressway only.

No where does it say in the images that this is Ganga Expressway.

^^ I wish that was Ganga Expressway but its not, it is Allahabad bypass on NH2.

No where does it say in the images that this is Ganga Expressway.


See the GOOGLE MAP version of wikimapia. In that they have clearly mentioned Ganga epressway near Phaphamau region. Though they have marked it only for some 3-4 kms.

See the GOOGLE MAP version of wikimapia. In that they have clearly mentioned Ganga epressway near Phaphamau region. Though they have marked it only for some 3-4 kms.

Don't worry, some one did it by mistake. I will correct it.

Concessionaire has submitted its proposal with Ministry of Environment and Forests on 18.04.2011 for obtaining environmental clearances in accordance with EIA Notification.


Process of obtaining the Environmental clearances is in progress.

https://udyogbandhu.com/topics.aspx?mid=193

hey guyz,

can anyone plz explain me da difference in yamuna n ganga expressways. i mean as per da route how far n different are these?

Ganga was supposed to start in GNoida and end in Ballia - spanning the ENTIRE length of UP
Yamuna is between GNoida and Agra

Ganga E-way was supposed to run along the Ganga (duh)
Yamuna spans the Yamuna river.

As is evident from the tense usage. Ganga expressway will never happen.
Yamuna Expressway is U/C

Here are the facts

The following image contains the all proposed, u/c, soon to be launched expressways across UP. The red line is Ganga Expressway

Current status of the project. EIA (Environmnet Impact Assessment) study submitted to environment ministry at center and UP govt is waiting for the clearence.
UP govt did not do the EIA and went ahead to implement the project. Some people went to Allahabad high court and HC asked UP govt to do the EIA (may 2009).

Last year I had chance to meet Industrial Commissioner of UP govt and he mentioned that it takes 275days to do EIA if done with 100% efficiency. Now EIA has been done we have to wait for the go ahead from center.

After this difficult part starts and that is land acquisition. Even if UP govt gets the environment clearence land acquisition will start only after 2012 UP elections. (and will depend on who wins the election)


Alldocuments related to Ganga Expressway can be downloaded from
http://www.upeida.in/rti.htm


http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/6198/upexpressway.jpg





hey guyz,

can anyone plz explain me da difference in yamuna n ganga expressways. i mean as per da route how far n different are these?

tnx.

that was indeed useful.just the resolution was an issue. tnx neways.

^^ I noticed the original itself is almost impossible to read on the UP govt website. Looks like anything our govt does - its broken. Except UIDAI - almost all government websites are either shoddy, or buggy, outdated or downright unresponsive.

Yeah, I could not read even a single name.

In that map:

1. Yamuna Expressway
2. Ganga Expressway
3. Upper Ganga Canal Expressway - Greater Noida-Saharanpur
4. Agra-Kanpur
5. Bijnor district-Fatehgarh (along ramganga river)
6. Bijnor district-Narora (along ganga river)
7. Jhansi-Kanpur-Lucknow-bahraich-gorakhpur-kashinagar
8. bahraich-babaganj (nepal border)

We have one more addition in the list

Upper Ganga Canal will be extended from Greater Noida via Kanpur to Fatehpur

Upper Ganga Canal and its extension till Fathepur are easy ones to implement because most of land is already with government (with irrigation department)

In that map:

1. Yamuna Expressway
2. Ganga Expressway
3. Upper Ganga Canal Expressway - Greater Noida-Saharanpur
4. Agra-Kanpur
5. Bijnor district-Fatehgarh (along ramganga river)
6. Bijnor district-Narora (along ganga river)
7. Jhansi-Kanpur-Lucknow-bahraich-gorakhpur-kashinagar
8. bahraich-babaganj (nepal border)

^Here's a rough alignment from an EOI-RFP for consultant (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CFwQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.upeida.in%2FSanauta-%2520Kanpur.pdf&ei=8kS0TsLBIIOctweFocH6Aw&usg=AFQjCNHaibM9WuVs71BGry0ilF5hwNY37A&sig2=VssiiYehFqOWaXwmDfocqg):

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9618/ugcex.png
-6 lanes and approx 450 kms

The Ganga expressway will be running parallel just 40-50 kms away from this so it looks like an overkill for now.

Edit: maybe they can build off of the Yamuna expressway like this and then scrap the other agra-kanpur expressway:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6703/ugcplan.jpg

UP Govt must add 2 more expressways to the network planned.

1. From Agra Kanpur expressway one expressway must extend till Jhansi and

2. From Varanasi one expressway must connect Kushinagar

by building this network all prominent tourist places in UP can be covered by road.

Delhi/Noida-Agra-Jhansi-Lucknow-Varanasi-Kushinagar

From Kushinagar take the flight back

UP government has handed over lands to private developers for cheap prices..and by violating environment rules..its a big scam uncovered by cnn ibn

Whats the credibility and integrity of cnn ibn? Who are they to make a judgement on some xyz project?

In India we have constitutional authority to pass judgement on scams. We have high quality High Courts and Supreme Court and they are capable to tell all of us if expressways are scam or not.

Yamuna expressway has passed the test of not 1 or 2 but few thousand court cases and series of inquiry by Mulayam Singh government. SC has given it green signal.

Rest of expressways are based on same yamuna expressway model

Looks like you missed the comments by retired SC judge Markandey Katju on media.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/press-freedom-must-be-examined/870993/







UP government has handed over lands to private developers for cheap prices..and by violating environment rules..its a big scam uncovered by cnn ibn

^^^^^^^^^^ I know for sure that mayawati is one of the most corrupt CMs and i hate her and her policies.

Even then i just hope that she returns as a CM because currently she is the best bet for the future of UP.

she have annoyed brahmins who have brought her to the power still I hope that we should forget that just for the sake of UP.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6712/alignmentganga20express.jpg

It is sad that every larger than life projects in India get stuck. Only this sort of huge projects can transform India. It is strange that we are so afraid to build something huge.

^^ Wait, this doesn't touch Lucknow whatsoever?
Also,
I assume the MoEF is sitting on these files?
It'll be cleared the minute Congress comes to power?

From Ganga Expressway link of 90.2km to Lucknow is proposed and is in the original plan.

^^ Wait, this doesn't touch Lucknow whatsoever?
Also,
I assume the MoEF is sitting on these files?
It'll be cleared the minute Congress comes to power?

this project is not at all viable, a disaster in all terms.

this project is not at all viable, a disaster in all terms.

Why? Because it will require farmland?

or runs parallel to existing highways??

Or will ruin Ganga's riverbanks?

No offence to U.P. but personally I feel this project is not viable. Almost whole highway is new and sharing parts with existing GQ or EW corridor is negligible. Constructing such new road is always difficult. Only in small stretches such as BMIC from Bangalore to Mysore, which rums almost parallel to existing four lane highway; or in economically and industrially active area as they are planning new access controlled expressway between Vadodara-Mumbai, it is feasible.

No doubt that if this project gets completed it will benefit UP, Bihar and even WB, Odisa. But development started from small steps and then huge strides can be attempted. A person healing from ankle fracture cannot fulfill his dream of winning Marathon immediately. :ohno:

let the experts in MoEF decide the problems with environment if any

UP govt presented a project and finance model under PPP and companies bought the idea and participated in it and jaypee has the project. Jaypee knows whats financially viable and how to make best out of it. so where is the problem?

whats good quality infra before industry comes to the state or infra after companies come to state. btw expressway will help agriculture in big way and is sufficient reason for UP govt to launch the project

No offence to U.P. but personally I feel this project is not viable. Almost whole highway is new and sharing parts with existing GQ or EW corridor is negligible. Constructing such new road is always difficult. Only in small stretches such as BMIC from Bangalore to Mysore, which rums almost parallel to existing four lane highway; or in economically and industrially active area as they are planning new access controlled expressway between Vadodara-Mumbai, it is feasible.

No doubt that if this project gets completed it will benefit UP, Bihar and even WB, Odisa. But development started from small steps and then huge strides can be attempted. A person healing from ankle fracture cannot fulfill his dream of winning Marathon immediately. :ohno:

No offence to U.P. but personally I feel this project is not viable. Almost whole highway is new and sharing parts with existing GQ or EW corridor is negligible. Constructing such new road is always difficult. Only in small stretches such as BMIC from Bangalore to Mysore, which rums almost parallel to existing four lane highway; or in economically and industrially active area as they are planning new access controlled expressway between Vadodara-Mumbai, it is feasible.

No doubt that if this project gets completed it will benefit UP, Bihar and even WB, Odisa. But development started from small steps and then huge strides can be attempted. A person healing from ankle fracture cannot fulfill his dream of winning Marathon immediately. :ohno:

Project is keeping in mind creating industrial townships along the lenght of the expressway. BIMARU needs a large dosage of industrialization if it wants to break out from its cycle of dependence. This means parts of farmland would get converted to township - but that is still insignifcant in terms of total volume of farm land. But each industrial township is force mutliplier in terms of employment generation, per capita income and huge indirect employment thats needed to sustain the townships and its ancilliaries.

Such a model of townships and expressway cutting through the rust belt of UP would push UP into a sustained cycle of economic development.
UP needs its hinterlands to grow - this will single handedly raise the Human Development Index of rural and eastern UP as well as raise India's HDI and per capita. UP is a big laggard contributing to India's pitiful global position HDI index and low per capita Income simply because of the sheer population that has no access to employment, industry, infrasrtucture, healthcare and capital.

Im curious to see how Bihar's rise and impact on India's GDP and HDI can be used to enforce this on UP. Ganga expressway will play a huge impact if it ends up doing this.

Exactly. Besides ushering economic development, the road will also be a part of an embankment on the left/north bank which will stop entire villages to be wiped out during the annual rains. That's one thing that needs to stop making the news every year.

you can't acquire land in such large proportions, therefore it is unviable. I am 100% sure that you can't create industrial estates by building an expressway in the middle of farmland. Industrial estates require a lot of other infrastructure facilities. they require labor, power, water etc. You can' t draw water from Ganga and can' bring transmission infra for 1000s of industries along an expressway in middle of 1000 of acres of farmland.

Yamuna expressway was viable since firstly it is widely used stretch, secondly you have an advantage of NCR expansion, thirdly you had a bustling industrial sector of noida and other industrial towns and at last you have hot property market.

Also i will like to add that Rs 60,000 crore can only be recovered by residential apartments, bungalows boom and then you will require huge acres of FRSH land which was not in the case of yamuna expressway, JAYPEE already had lands along yamuna expressway 10 years back. If you acquire fresh land then you will have the fate of Greater noida elsewhere in UP.

I know for sure that in district Etah (now Kanshiram Nagar) the land parcel of 8041Ha (Hectare) is barren land. I am not sure but I think rest of land parcels are also barren land

Total land parcel given to Jaypee = 11254ha
land required for expressway = 15120ha

Project is keeping in mind creating industrial townships along the lenght of the expressway. BIMARU needs a large dosage of industrialization if it wants to break out from its cycle of dependence. This means parts of farmland would get converted to township - but that is still insignifcant in terms of total volume of farm land. But each industrial township is force mutliplier in terms of employment generation, per capita income and huge indirect employment thats needed to sustain the townships and its ancilliaries.

Such a model of townships and expressway cutting through the rust belt of UP would push UP into a sustained cycle of economic development.
UP needs its hinterlands to grow - this will single handedly raise the Human Development Index of rural and eastern UP as well as raise India's HDI and per capita. UP is a big laggard contributing to India's pitiful global position HDI index and low per capita Income simply because of the sheer population that has no access to employment, industry, infrasrtucture, healthcare and capital.

Im curious to see how Bihar's rise and impact on India's GDP and HDI can be used to enforce this on UP. Ganga expressway will play a huge impact if it ends up doing this.

how can land near ganga be barren?

I dont know why the land near ganga is barren :-) but yes I belong to area close to Etah so I know for sure the land is barren and during my next visit I can try to get some images

If you plot the proposed power plant and u/c power plant on UP map you will see the power plants are distributed in such a way that they will take care of all proposed land parcels along expressways

how can land near ganga be barren?

Many of the same tiring arguments recycled from decades gone by are being trotted out once again. UP especially has been a neglected state for ages. Only the areas surrounding Delhi has some growth. The rest of the state is woefully neglected, infrastructure neglected, development stunted. A big bang development can shake things up. Hopefully, this highway project will stir up things and good Road infra goes a long way in making meaningful change. If the BIMARU states grow and industrialize quickly, then India is changed forever which is highly desirable.

you can download the agreement doc from the upeida website

http://upeida.in/Document%201.pdf

on page 33 you will find the land details

Name of district: Etah, location : Patiyali, Land identified: 8041ha, circle rate: just 0.23lakh per ha, (reason why so low is because it is barren land)



how can land near ganga be barren?

lol what a joke, only Rs 300 will be spent to acquire land, yamuna expressway did it with more than Rs 2000. This is grossly understated, it must be around $1 billion or Rs 4000 cr. Totally useless project, it will take ages to implement it or even start it.

you can't acquire land in such large proportions, therefore it is unviable. I am 100% sure that you can't create industrial estates by building an expressway in the middle of farmland. Industrial estates require a lot of other infrastructure facilities. they require labor, power, water etc. You can' t draw water from Ganga and can' bring transmission infra for 1000s of industries along an expressway in middle of 1000 of acres of farmland.

Yamuna expressway was viable since firstly it is widely used stretch, secondly you have an advantage of NCR expansion, thirdly you had a bustling industrial sector of noida and other industrial towns and at last you have hot property market.

I doubt they would use the Yamuna expressway Blitzkreig model to acquire all land in one go. For a project this mammoth - It would be prudent to acquire parcels of land on the expressway close to existing trading centers/taluks and develop the multiple townships in phases, and after the Yamuna Expressway experience - this is most likely what they would probably do. With the new Land Acquisition Policy - the rates would be competitive hopefully reducing the primary bottleneck in all such projects - compensation!
Phases 2, 3, 4 etc would end up covering the entire belt!

i am still not convinced about land acquisition and how can they recover Rs 80,000 crore(add interest payments to it, in the tune of Rs 6,000 crore every year assuming interest rates of 10% per annum till 15 years)

i am assuming 75:25 debt to equity, and equity will be brought by the land sales/property development. Note that equity to be generated in the tune of Rs 20,000 crore in 5-6 years is not an easy job. It means Rs 4,000 crore of money from property development in a single year, that is equal to $1 billion. DLF revenues for FY11 were Rs 10,000 crore. Also this is in the backward region of UP, who will invest in the middle of farmland away from any metro?

The gestation period would have to be much longer under the BOT clause. Also - since this is PPP model - pretty sure the social factor of implementing the project would mean government would probably hand out lavish sops getting the project off the ground. Even though firms like Jaypee would finance most of the capital expenditure - the government would probably have to guarantee long term guaranteed revenues over a larger gestation period to offset any shortfalls in the planned projections of the year-to-year revenue growth.

That coupled with lavish tax sops/SEZ benefits etc would be needed as no one would invest if there is a risk of falling revenues or lack of investment during the initial launch years or during periods of slowdown, naturally considering this region is virgin when it comes to any form of Industry/Infrastructure.

Naturally, all of this is merely speculation : Would be good to know what does the fine-print of the contract in the PPP- initiative really say about the revenue model.

Wiki:
"Government contributions to a PPP may also be in kind (notably the transfer of existing assets). In projects that are aimed at creating public goods like in the infrastructure sector, the government may provide a capital subsidy in the form of a one-time grant, so as to make it more attractive to the private investors. In some other cases, the government may support the project by providing revenue subsidies, including tax breaks or by providing guaranteed annual revenues for a fixed period."

so even if govt. will contribute 20% then it will be huge, Rs 16,000 crore. This is a totally unviable.

Friends I am not much of an Accounts/Economics person. But for a country like India such a huge investment in the middle of nowhere is not viable. Even in industrially active stretch of Vadodara to Mumbai (roughly 550km), plans/proposals for construction of expressway is submitted for approval since last 3-4 years(the alignment of which is, by the way, on almost virgin land too). Agreed, that it is under NHAI but still authorities are concerned about returns. Then why wouldn't be Jaypee?? :bash:
Remember this is literally long project, even if barren land is available in some of the districts, what about rest of the stretch? Will the farmers sale their land (barren/fertile, along mother ganga) for highways/industries, even if all clearances are received?:ohno:

Friends I am not much of an Accounts/Economics person. But for a country like India such a huge investment in the middle of nowhere is not viable.

Even in industrially active stretch of Vadodara to Mumbai (roughly 550km), plans/proposals for construction of expressway is submitted for approval since last 3-4 years(the alignment of which is, by the way, on almost virgin land too). Agreed, that it is under NHAI but still authorities are concerned about returns. Then why wouldn't be Jaypee?? :bash:

Remember this is literally long project, even if barren land is available in some of the districts, what about rest of the stretch? Will the farmers sale their land (barren/fertile, along mother ganga) for highways/industries, even if all clearances are received?:ohno:



Ganga Expressway goes through the middle of UP :-) and touches prominent towns such as Kanpur, Varanasi, Allahabad

Cost of expressway will be recovered from the land parcels. NHAI does not follow land parcel model to develop highways. Concern about financial viability is genuine and all will ask question how jaypee is going to recover 80,000crore required to build the expressway.
Jaypee has to work with UP govt to find investment in the land parcels. UP does not have dedicated food processing zone. Jaypee together with UP govt might have plan to develop Etah as food processing center of UP. If F1 can be used to add value to land I am sure Jaypee must be having many more ideas to add value to the land parcels. Some media reports suggest that value of land parcles for yamuna expressway over next 20 years is close to 1lakh 30thousand crores!

Its a question of political will and I am quite confident of Maya's execution ability and her political will (probably she is best in India as we all know against extreme opposition she decided to put her statue in Lucknow & Noida :-)). If the BSP govt changes in UP election then yes we have issues with the project

Friends I am not much of an Accounts/Economics person. But for a country like India such a huge investment in the middle of nowhere is not viable. Even in industrially active stretch of Vadodara to Mumbai (roughly 550km), plans/proposals for construction of expressway is submitted for approval since last 3-4 years(the alignment of which is, by the way, on almost virgin land too). Agreed, that it is under NHAI but still authorities are concerned about returns. Then why wouldn't be Jaypee?? :bash:
Remember this is literally long project, even if barren land is available in some of the districts, what about rest of the stretch? Will the farmers sale their land (barren/fertile, along mother ganga) for highways/industries, even if all clearances are received?:ohno:

If Chandrababu Naidu could single handedly lift Andhra from the mess it was upto NTR's regime and turn Hyderabad from a backwater, economically defunct town to one of India's most dynamic metropolises - It can be done anywhere!

If Chandrababu Naidu could single handedly lift Andhra from the mess it was upto NTR's regime and turn Hyderabad from a backwater, economically defunct town to one of India's most dynamic metropolises - It can be done anywhere!

True, Hydrabad is truly transformed. But here we have issue of a whole state and not city. Anyways, there is no doubt that if India truly wants to grow then it will be possible only through revival of struggling states.

Ganga Expressway goes through the middle of UP :-) and touches prominent towns such as Kanpur, Varanasi, Allahabad

Its a question of political will and I am quite confident of Maya's execution ability and her political will (probably she is best in India as we all know against extreme opposition she decided to put her statue in Lucknow & Noida :-)). If the BSP govt changes in UP election then yes we have issues with the project

Well she is as stubborn as stubbornness goes! Wish this time round it is in good direction. But you cant compare Kanpur, Varanasi and Allahabad with Vadodara, (Diamond city)Surat and (Financial Capital)Mumbai with industrial Bharuch-Ankleshwar in between and Ahmedabad on one end.

You know how govt started with four laning of GQ?? They first completed it in profitable routes and then gradually filled the gaps. Thats what I am trying to say. Connect major/profitable centers in UP first (let people taste the sweet fruits of development) and then gradually fill the gap. Otherwise there will be opposition from farmers/aam admi as in FDI for retail.

True, Hydrabad is truly transformed. But here we have issue of a whole state and not city. Anyways, there is no doubt that if India truly wants to grow then it will be possible only through revival of struggling states.



Well she is as stubborn as stubbornness goes! Wish this time round it is in good direction. But you cant compare Kanpur, Varanasi and Allahabad with Vadodara, (Diamond city)Surat and (Financial Capital)Mumbai with industrial Bharuch-Ankleshwar in between and Ahmedabad on one end.


You know how govt started with four laning of GQ?? They first completed it in profitable routes and then gradually filled the gaps. Thats what I am trying to say. Connect major/profitable centers in UP first (let people taste the sweet fruits of development) and then gradually fill the gap. Otherwise there will be opposition from farmers/aam admi as in FDI for retail.


Don't underestimate UP :-) still UP is second largest in terms of state GDP after Maharashtra. Days are over when Mandal and Kamandal politics dominated and we grew at 2-3%. Now we are growing at 8% and investment in absolute terms in UP in last 2 years is more than Gujarat.

Do not think in terms of point to point connectivity but think of Ganga expressway as spine of UP which will get feed from all districts and goods will be transported to imp centers. GE will connect Delhi, Noida, G noida, Bulandsahar (new hub because of DMIC & DFC), Farrukhabad (Buddhist tourist spot), Kannauj (world famous for perfumes many of brand in world originate at Kannauj), Lucknow (capital of UP and cultural center), Unnao (Leather center , industry shifted from Kanpur, many of famous brands originate in Kanpur/Unnao/Agra), Kanpur was Manchester of east is on decline but yes GE will revive the city, Varanasi (hottest tourist spot/ cultural center of India/world), Allahabad has only HC and all people from UP have to travel to HC to fight legal battle.

Do not think in terms of industrial goods and private vehicle flow. Think in terms of agriculture produce which will be transported on the expressway

Financial model is different and money will be recovered from land parcels so no question of profitable or non profitable route. IN this model you take expressway to those areas where economic development has not reached and give new areas opportunity to develop

The master plan for GE is well thought out exercise or I would say brilliant plan rarely we see in India.

Land parcels are given to those districts which are underdeveloped and have no opportunity to get any kind of investment if GE is not developed

1. Etah
2. Badaun
3. Unnao
4. Raibareilly
5. Pratapgarh
6. Mirzapur
7. Allahabad is only known city (330Ha)

Link road from GE to Lucknow will take care of Hardoi




True, Hydrabad is truly transformed. But here we have issue of a whole state and not city. Anyways, there is no doubt that if India truly wants to grow then it will be possible only through revival of struggling states.



Well she is as stubborn as stubbornness goes! Wish this time round it is in good direction. But you cant compare Kanpur, Varanasi and Allahabad with Vadodara, (Diamond city)Surat and (Financial Capital)Mumbai with industrial Bharuch-Ankleshwar in between and Ahmedabad on one end.

You know how govt started with four laning of GQ?? They first completed it in profitable routes and then gradually filled the gaps. Thats what I am trying to say. Connect major/profitable centers in UP first (let people taste the sweet fruits of development) and then gradually fill the gap. Otherwise there will be opposition from farmers/aam admi as in FDI for retail.

Do not think in terms of industrial goods and private vehicle flow. Think in terms of agriculture produce which will be transported on the expressway

Financial model is different and money will be recovered from land parcels so no question of profitable or non profitable route. IN this model you take expressway to those areas where economic development has not reached and give new areas opportunity to develop

Point taken :cheers:
I really hope I am wrong. Coz development of UP, Bihar, Jaharkhand, WB, Odisa, NE is very crucial for India. It will benefit India in a huge way. But what generally happens is most money is lost and construction is not done or quality compromised. There is saying in Hindi/Gujarati 'Dudh ka jala 6aa6 bhi phuk ke peeta hai.' So just worried this will never be floored considering its huge scale.

The petition that held up this entire project started with this (http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/high-curt-orders-a-stop-to-all-work-on-ganga-expressway_100272321.html):
After the expressway project was launched, a petition was filed jointly by Varanasi-based Ganga Mahasabha and Mirzapur-based Vindhya Environmental Society in Allahabad-based High Court of the state of Uttar Pradesh. The petitioners alleged the proposed Ganga Expressway would expose large parts of the state to environmental hazards

One of the petitioner's reasons was "The pollution in Uttar Pradesh is already alarming. How can anyone grant permission for aquiring agricultural land for this 1000-km long project?".
So the Western Nations or Japan or China shouldn't have industrialized and become a modern economy - but remained backwater like UP because of added "pollution". They're ok with the 2$ per day living and the conditions that are considered akin to Sub saharan africa - but not willing to take the leap into betterment because they "think" expressways=evil!

Point taken :cheers:
I really hope I am wrong. Coz development of UP, Bihar, Jaharkhand, WB, Odisa, NE is very crucial for India. It will benefit India in a huge way. But what generally happens is most money is lost and construction is not done or quality compromised. There is saying in Hindi/Gujarati 'Dudh ka jala 6aa6 bhi phuk ke peeta hai.' So just worried this will never be floored considering its huge scale.

Yamuna expressway is already implemented from G Noida to Agra and will be opened in next few weeks. You must look into the images of yamuna expressway posted in this forum. I am sure you wont ask question on quality and wastage of money. UP govt is not spending even a single rupee on this project and all expenditure has to be done by Jaypee Group. UP govt will just facilitate in land acquisition, law & order, planning, monitoring, bring in investment, coordination between different departments etc.

Its a very ambitious project and will face many hurdles while implementation but yes if implemented successfully will change the face of UP.

It will have direct impact on health and education sector as every land parcel will get 1-2 super specialty hospitals and quality schools.

We don't need few mega cities but need decentralized manageable urban centers for sustainable growth and this model of expressway development will exactly do the same

After announcement of the project one of the press release

-------------------------------------

For the Express-way Project, on the basis of public - private partnership an investment of Rs. 40 thousand crore and of Rs. 80 thousand crore in the development sector is expected. For the first time in the country any state is planning and executing a project of such large magnitude. Since the investment for the project will be from the participation of the private sector therefore there will be no financial burden on the Government and its role will that be of a facilitator. 36 Tehsils of 19 districts will benefit from the Ganga Express-way. These include Sadar, Dalmau, Lalganj, Salon and Unchahar tehsils of RaiBareli district, Bighapur and Sadar tehsils of Unnao district, Jamania and Mohammadabad tehsils of Ghazipur district, Sadar tehsil of Varanasi district, Kunda tehsil of Pratapgarh district, Soraon, Phoolpur, Handia, Karchana, Meja and Sadar tehsils of Allahabad district, Sadar, Kayamganj and Amritpur tehsils of Farrukhabad district, Dataganj, Sahaswan, Gunnaur and Badaun tehsils of Badaun district, Sadar, Bansdeeh, Beria tehsils of Ballia district, Gyanpur and Aurai tehsils of Bhadoi district, Khurja, Dibai, Shikarpur tehsils of Bulandshahar district, Sandila, Bilgram, Savaijpur tehsils of Hardoi district and Jalalabad tehsil of Shahjahanpur district. Apart from these, Etah, Kannauj, Kanpur Dehat, Kanpur Nagar, Kaushambi and Mirzapur districts will also benefit from this. This project will be constructed on the embankments on the left bank of the river Ganga. It may be noted that the left bank of Ganga River is more devastated by floods. Hence millions of flood affected will get relief through this project and the farmers of these areas will get the opportunity to procure two crops, which in turn will improve their financial status. 10 major development areas, each of approximately four to five thousand acres will be developed in the Express-way Project. These areas will be equipped with infrastructure facilities like electricity, water, roads, health services, educational institutions and housing. In the development area, industries will be established in 10 thousand acres. Through five hundred large-scale industries six to seven thousand persons will gain employment while three lakh persons will be directly or indirectly employed in medium and small-scale industries. The local population gets maximum opportunities of employment in these industries, for this technical/commercial educational and training institutes will be established in the development areas in fifteen hundred acres. 20 ITI level, 10 Polytechnic level and 5 Engineering level institutes along with Medical College and various Paramedical schools will also be established providing employment to 20 thousand persons as well as benefiting 20 thousand students. 5 hundred agro-based large and small-scale industries will also be established which in turn will directly benefit the farmers. It is expected that seven to eight lakh persons will either reside or work in these areas in the next ten years. To serve them, commercial establishments, shops, hotels, bus stations, truck terminus, buses and taxies will also operate which in turn will provide employment to one to two lakh persons

^^ i must say you are indeed very optimistic :) The benefits are really cool. But as you said IF implemented successfully will change the face of UP.

IF/Agar bahut important words hai So let me be optimistic too, it will be completed :soon: :cheers:

Country currently is short of optimist people and is the reason why Anna is getting so many people for his protest. It was easy to convince and add you on the side of few of optimist people in India :-)

Its good that work on GE starts after the launch of Yamuna Expressway. For any question/issues raised UP govt can always point to Yamuna Expressway as success story. With YE every one in India from SC to HC to media to common people to political parties to babus (IAS) to Jaypee gained significant experience. I am sure now political opposition is going to be much less and far less time will be taken by SC/HC to pass judgement as they can always refer to previous judgement.
Now R&R policy is also much better and will help in calm down the protest.

Last year someone told me that jaypee hired 5000 lekhpals to deal with land acquisition and distribution of compensation. (I have no means to verify the info). I think almost all ground work is done and now wait is for MoEF go ahead and UP elections



^^ i must say you are indeed very optimistic :) The benefits are really cool. But as you said
IF/Agar bahut important words hai So let me be optimistic too, it will be completed :soon: :cheers:

but IF AND ONLY IF EVER GE will work out, it will be only when Maya is in power, if she moves out it will be the end.

I wont say end of the project but yes will get delayed. I dont think any political party can scrap the project they will just sit on it and wont allow the work to happen till favorable party forms the govt

In the current campaign I have not seen media reports where BJP & interestingly SP raised the issue of YE/GE. Yes Rahul Gandhi raised the issue and trying to make it core of its campaign.
I dont think in UP people will vote for development. In some areas Maya may pay the price for development as land acquisition may be one of imp local factor. As usual voting will happen on caste lines and political parties skill to identify right candidates to split the votes among opposition parties.

Work will happen on GE if
Maya form govt independently
Maya forms the govt with BJP support

GE will be put into cold storage if
SP forms the govt with or without support of cong

other combinations remote possibility



but IF AND ONLY IF EVER GE will work out, it will be only when Maya is in power, if she moves out it will be the end.

Isn't it sad that due to politics the thing suffers the most in our country is development? I mean look at other countries...they have politics/corruption alright but development is always in priority. So here we are...always need to vote for the bad out of the worst in every election. Let Maya win!

I wont say end of the project but yes will get delayed. I dont think any political party can scrap the project they will just sit on it and wont allow the work to happen till favorable party forms the govt

In the current campaign I have not seen media reports where BJP & interestingly SP raised the issue of YE/GE. Yes Rahul Gandhi raised the issue and trying to make it core of its campaign.
I dont think in UP people will vote for development. In some areas Maya may pay the price for development as land acquisition may be one of imp local factor. As usual voting will happen on caste lines and political parties skill to identify right candidates to split the votes among opposition parties.

Work will happen on GE if
Maya form govt independently
Maya forms the govt with BJP support

GE will be put into cold storage if
SP forms the govt with or without support of cong

other combinations remote possibility

Correct. SP is infamous for only promulgating yadavisation - development pretty much comes to a halt!

On a changed note- does anyone know how much land was acquired before this was put to cold storage by the environment ministry?

There seems to be lot of recent activities in this thread once considered dead. Has there been any announcement to rouse hope from its hopeless slumber?

no elections are near ;)

No land acquired till now

Someone interested can file an RTI application to MoEF to get status on GE environment clearence. I dont see anything related to GE on MoEF website.

UP govt Udyog Bandhu website says they submitted the proposal on 14th April 2011 to MoEF
------------
Concessionaire has submitted its proposal with Ministry of Environment and Forests on 18.04.2011 for obtaining environmental clearances in accordance with EIA Notification
https://udyogbandhu.com/topics.aspx?mid=193
-------------

MoEF website contains info on UGCE

Correct. SP is infamous for only promulgating yadavisation - development pretty much comes to a halt!

On a changed note- does anyone know how much land was acquired before this was put to cold storage by the environment ministry?

Sad state of affairs of Indian Democracy. Almost all projects are either struck at HC/SC or MoEF and now soon all projects will also need clearance of Lokpal. Plan and launch the projects and never execute them as by the time you get clearance you complete your 5 years.

In politics one week is long time so will wait till the final vote is counted
------------------------------------

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/mayas-ganga-expressway-at-dead-end-over-green-nod/889465/


Lucknow: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayawati’s pet project — the Ganga Expressway, the country’s longest — is being put into cold storage. The state government last month signed a supplementary agreement with the concessionaire of the project, Jaypee Associates. Under this, the state government stated that since environmental clearance for the project was stuck with the Centre, it has decided to return the R1,000-crore bank guarantee amount to the concessionaire, with a clause that if and when the project gets the environmental clearance the guarantee amount would be deposited by the concessionaire once again.

According to sources, the decision came in the wake of the fact that the delay in getting the environmental clearance was beyond the control of either the state government or the concessionaire and hence the money was being returned.

The fate of the R40,000-crore project — envisaged as a 1,047-km-long, eight-lane, access-controlled expressway that was to connect Greater Noida at one end of Uttar Pradesh to Ballia at its other end — has been under a cloud since May 2009, when the Allahabad High Court restrained the state government from proceeding with the project and directed it to obtain prior environmental clearance from the Centre. Later, farmers’ unrest and violent protests against land acquisition and compensation issues added further wrinkles.

According to people close to the matter, the latest move has been prompted by the prospect of the forthcoming UP assembly elections. “Uncertainty about the possibility of the Mayawati government making it back after the polls has probably led to this decision,” said one person, who requested anonymity, adding the project now looks to be truly dead in spirit.

All Opposition parties in UP, including the Samajwadi Party, Bharatiya Janata Party and the Rashtriya Lok Dal, have been vocal in their opposition to the project. Launching scathing attacks on the ruling Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) government for proposing a project of this nature, they have alleged that it has been planned to give undue benefits to the project concessionaire at the cost of the farmers. Farmers’ groups and environmentalists, too, had demanded the scrapping of the Ganga Expressway project, saying that it was a conspiracy to render farmers unemployed and landless and that it would also expose large parts of the state to environmental hazards.

The project was expected to affect around 1,000 villages that would come under the expressway’s ‘right of way’ plan, apart from several more that would have been impacted by the proposed projects along the highway. With protests over land acquisition becoming more and more virulent and a change of guard in the offing in UP as well, it is being said that the concessionaire, too, was not very keen to invest in the project at this juncture.

^^ now you see m_1973 ?
The project faces such hurdles because of its HUGENESS. Instead of planing for such a long highway they should have connected the important cities (lets say Kanpur, Varanasi, Gorakhpur) with four lane highway. Now this is comparatively cheaper, quicker and less hurdle-some, right? Having made these guide roads, they can 'fill in the blanks' in next phase which can connect small centers. And in further future this road can be made access controlled or lanes can be added.
Moving further step by step will help get clearances quickly and will not require huge funds to finance all in short time frame.

I still dont think HUGNESS of the project is problem.

All the problem is of politics and congress does not want to take responsibility of the project clearance when they openly opposed the yamuna expressway project for political gains to launch Rahul Gandhi in UP. The process in MoEF are not clearly defined and most of them are not time bound.
UP govt is sitting on centers projects and center is sitting on UP govts projects. This will continue till elections are over. UP is not the only state victim of MoEF ask Orissa, MP and many more opposition ruled states all will tell you the same sotry.

More fundamental problem is complicated process we have put in place in system on the name of democracy. Small or large project (I think 5-7Ha onwards all projects need MoEF clearance) Environment Impact Assessment takes same number of days (min 275days).
Problem is time to plan, get clearance is so complicated that if any elected govt starts the project on day one it take more than 5 years to get it going on the ground. By that time we reach elections and really dont know what will happen next.
Yamuna Expressway was launched in 2002 and in 2012 it will get ready. THis is just 165km and took 10 years to complete! ... During the same period UP alone addedd 4crore in its population. The pace of development is much slower than the demand for it

and now we added one more layer of Lokpal in process


^^ now you see m_1973 ?
The project faces such hurdles because of its HUGENESS. Instead of planing for such a long highway they should have connected the important cities (lets say Kanpur, Varanasi, Gorakhpur) with four lane highway. Now this is comparatively cheaper, quicker and less hurdle-some, right? Having made these guide roads, they can 'fill in the blanks' in next phase which can connect small centers. And in further future this road can be made access controlled or lanes can be added.
Moving further step by step will help get clearances quickly and will not require huge funds to finance all in short time frame.

govt must change the process to speed up the things. Currently most departments work in series and not in parallel. Most of issues with MoEF can be easily taken care if govt changes rules and makes sure one person from MoEF is part of planning stage of the project. MoEF representative can suggest and give inputs during the alignment phase of the project and once alignment is final he can also sign the report and say MoEF clearance is done.

Currently what we do is we assume that people involved in planning have violated all environment laws and MoEF must look into it and give corrective suggestions / cancel the project. While doing this party in power plays politics and creates problems depending on the percivied political gains


I still dont think HUGNESS of the project is problem.

All the problem is of politics and congress does not want to take responsibility of the project clearance when they openly opposed the yamuna expressway project for political gains to launch Rahul Gandhi in UP. The process in MoEF are not clearly defined and most of them are not time bound.
UP govt is sitting on centers projects and center is sitting on UP govts projects. This will continue till elections are over. UP is not the only state victim of MoEF ask Orissa, MP and many more opposition ruled states all will tell you the same sotry.

More fundamental problem is complicated process we have put in place in system on the name of democracy. Small or large project (I think 5-7Ha onwards all projects need MoEF clearance) Environment Impact Assessment takes same number of days (min 275days).
Problem is time to plan, get clearance is so complicated that if any elected govt starts the project on day one it take more than 5 years to get it going on the ground. By that time we reach elections and really dont know what will happen next.
Yamuna Expressway was launched in 2002 and in 2012 it will get ready. THis is just 165km and took 10 years to complete! ... During the same period UP alone addedd 4crore in its population. The pace of development is much slower than the demand for it

and now we added one more layer of Lokpal in process

Yamuna Expressway was launched in 2002 and in 2012 it will get ready. THis is just 165km and took 10 years to complete! ... During the same period UP alone addedd 4crore in its population. The pace of development is much slower than the demand for it


if in 2002 you would have asked any bank for Rs 4000 crore that too for a road project in the middle of farmland, they would have blatantly said NO. It is still a megaproject.

Yes fully agree that YE is also a mega project. My problem is with complicated process we have put in place to get any project moving on ground. I am ready to accept difficulty in getting finance to execute the project but just to get out of all process 4-6years is unacceptable.

If jaypee finds diffculties in getting 80,000 crore in one go they can always split the project in 10-12 parts and execute it over a period of time. This should be acceptable to one and all.

Problem with complicated process is that any violation only leads to allegation of corruption and PILs in courts. If some process says that min time required is 10days then govt simple cant finish it in 6-7days by putting extra resource. Its a violation of set guidlines and falls in category of corruption!


if in 2002 you would have asked any bank for Rs 4000 crore that too for a road project in the middle of farmland, they would have blatantly said NO. It is still a megaproject.

Any News About The Project ??

I hope Its Is Not Scrapped Forever !!! It Is Such A great Visionary Project !!

No - and there probably won't be any until Assembly elections in UP

Hmm..Lets Keep Our Fingers Crossed !!

Any News About The Project ??

I hope Its Is Not Scrapped Forever !!! It Is Such A great Visionary Project !!

Its just a trick to grab valuable agricultural land and give it to the builder lobby and get millions of dollars in bribe.

Jaypee pulls out of Ganga e-way

NOIDA: In a major setback to the Maya government and commuters, the Jaypee group has reportedly pulled out of the 1,047km-long Ganga Expressway project after withdrawing the Rs 1,000 crore bank guarantee. Sources in the developer group said that the government had failed to provide environmental clearance for the project and it was in no position to invest a huge amount in it.

The fate of the Rs 40,000-crore project, which was to connect Greater Noida to Ballia through an eight-lane access-controlled expressway, went under a cloud since May 2009, when the Allahabad High Court restrained the state government from proceeding with the project and directed it to obtain prior environmental clearance from the Centre. Later, farmers' unrest and violent protests against land acquisition regarding compensation issues added to the project landing in limbo.

According to sources, the decision comes in wake of the fact that delay in getting the environmental clearance was beyond the control of either the state government or the concessionaire and, hence, the money was being withdrawn.

Sources in Jaypee group said that they could foresee no profits from the amount submitted as the fate of the project remained undecided. "With the court adding to the issue, and non-utilization of the investment, the group decided to withdraw the bank guarantee so that this huge amount could be invested in other projects," said a senior official in Jaypee group on the condition of anonymity.

The bank guarantee has been returned to the concessionaire with a clause that if and when the project gets the environmental clearance, the amount can be deposited by Jaypee again so that the project can commence.

Sources also add that Jaypee has been keeping a close tab on developments in the state. The latest move has reportedly been prompted by the prospect of the forthcoming UP assembly elections. "Uncertainty about the possibility of the Mayawati government making it back after the polls has probably led to this decision," sources said.

All opposition parties in UP, including the Samajwadi Party, Bharatiya Janata Party and the Rashtriya Lok Dal, had been vocal in resisting the project. Earlier, farmers' groups and environmentalists, too, had demanded the scrapping of the Ganga Expressway project saying that it was a conspiracy to render farmers unemployed and landless and that it would also expose large parts of the state to environmental hazards.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/noida/Jaypee-pulls-out-of-Ganga-e-way/articleshow/11468702.cms

The above is also a open sign from Jaypee that the mayawati is not going to return to power.

Its just a trick to grab valuable agricultural land...

The problem with Indian agriculture isn't that there is too little land. India already has the 2nd largest arable land area in the world, and highest irrigated area, even though the country accounts for just 2.3% of land area on earth.

The problems with Indian agriculture are several; two of the most important ones is low productivity and lot of spoilage/waste of harvest of hard working farmers. For both, the core cause is lack of highways and connecting all-season quality rural roads.

The average national yield for top 10 farm products in India is about 15-25% of the what other countries achieve. And whatever the diligent farmers of India do produce, some 30%+ rots in the farm or broken roads or because the farmer can not store / sell directly to towns/cities where the demand is and where food is not produced.

The low yield in India, isn't because Indian farmer is lazy or incompetent. Far from it; some Indian farmers already have the best yields for some produce, in the world. The problem is that farm equipment, seeds, fertilizers, etc do not reach most farmers in the narrow planting seasonal window that are necessary to get the best productivity. And they do not reach the farmer because India lacks highways such as the Ganga Expressway, plus rural roads connecting it.

The best yields, and highest farm incomes in India are enjoyed in states that do have better roads and highways, on a relative basis. Same is true in Europe, Chile, Brazil, USA, China and every agri-intensive country: yields, food security and farmer incomes increase with every 100 kilometer of 4-lane highways connecting major agri-areas.

In last 20 years, with the highways India has already built, farm productivity and total production has hit new records in India. There is a huge difference in Indian agri success pre-1990s and post-1990s.

If India cares about its farmers, it must build all-season road infrastructure.

Roads surface take less than 0.01% area of any large agri-intensive region. But the benefits are exceptional.

If farmers could bring inputs and move output, in time, Indian agriculture could easily be the world's best, a land of milk and honey and plenty. The small Indian farmer incomes would be 3 to 10 times higher (after expense adjusted basis).

So, humbly, I believe building multi-lane expressways along flood prone rivers such as Ganga isn't land grab, it is a gift, it is a necessity, it is what states such as Uttar Pradesh need, it is what India needs. ASAP.

Return of deposit does not necessarily mean Jaypee will not ever build the expressway.

There is no sense in giving and holding a deposit when the road isn't being built yet.

If the expressway gets environmental clearance, and construction begins, some deposit or collateral may make sense.

The problem with Indian agriculture isn't that there is too little land. India already has the 2nd largest arable land area in the world, and highest irrigated area, even though the country accounts for just 2.3% of land area on earth.
---------------------
So, humbly, I believe building multi-lane expressways along flood prone rivers such as Ganga isn't land grab, it is a gift, it is a necessity, it is what states such as Uttar Pradesh need, it is what India needs. ASAP.

Makes lot of sense.

If India cares about its farmers, it must build all-season road infrastructure.

Roads surface take less than 0.01% area of any large agri-intensive region. But the benefits are exceptional.

If farmers could bring inputs and move output, in time, Indian agriculture could easily be the world's best, a land of milk and honey and plenty. The small Indian farmer incomes would be 3 to 10 times higher (after expense adjusted basis).

So, humbly, I believe building multi-lane expressways along flood prone rivers such as Ganga isn't land grab, it is a gift, it is a necessity, it is what states such as Uttar Pradesh need, it is what India needs. ASAP.

Yes, absolutely right. If you look at the current arguments for FDI in retail, all the baniya/middle man are up in arms over the prospect of their cushy livelihood being wiped out. However the farmers welcome such a move. Why, because they will produce farm grains/vegetables and these big companies will invest in roads, transportation, cold storage freezers, modern logistics, just in time inventory controls and a whole host of other technology. They might aid the farmer with loans, equipment, seeds etc. These companies have honed the technique of efficient farm to market. They can suggest various other avenues of revenue stream for the farmer. Eventually, uplifting the 80% folks in rural areas is win-win for India.

The current crop of baniyas/middle man are out to loot the farmers and they give a damn about modern logistics/transportation, etc. UP needs a good infra of roads. The state is woefully behind in modernization. The area is large, fertile with lots of people. Everytime whenever there is move to modernize the state some decrepit politico creeps out the woodwork and makes a huge stink. This has to stop soon.

The problem with Indian agriculture isn't that there is too little land. India already has the 2nd largest arable land area in the world, and highest irrigated area, even though the country accounts for just 2.3% of land area on earth.

The problems with Indian agriculture are several; two of the most important ones is low productivity and lot of spoilage/waste of harvest of hard working farmers. For both, the core cause is lack of highways and connecting all-season quality rural roads.

The average national yield for top 10 farm products in India is about 15-25% of the what other countries achieve. And whatever the diligent farmers of India do produce, some 30%+ rots in the farm or broken roads or because the farmer can not store / sell directly to towns/cities where the demand is and where food is not produced.

The low yield in India, isn't because Indian farmer is lazy or incompetent. Far from it; some Indian farmers already have the best yields for some produce, in the world. The problem is that farm equipment, seeds, fertilizers, etc do not reach most farmers in the narrow planting seasonal window that are necessary to get the best productivity. And they do not reach the farmer because India lacks highways such as the Ganga Expressway, plus rural roads connecting it.

The best yields, and highest farm incomes in India are enjoyed in states that do have better roads and highways, on a relative basis. Same is true in Europe, Chile, Brazil, USA, China and every agri-intensive country: yields, food security and farmer incomes increase with every 100 kilometer of 4-lane highways connecting major agri-areas.

In last 20 years, with the highways India has already built, farm productivity and total production has hit new records in India. There is a huge difference in Indian agri success pre-1990s and post-1990s.

If India cares about its farmers, it must build all-season road infrastructure.

Roads surface take less than 0.01% area of any large agri-intensive region. But the benefits are exceptional.

If farmers could bring inputs and move output, in time, Indian agriculture could easily be the world's best, a land of milk and honey and plenty. The small Indian farmer incomes would be 3 to 10 times higher (after expense adjusted basis).

So, humbly, I believe building multi-lane expressways along flood prone rivers such as Ganga isn't land grab, it is a gift, it is a necessity, it is what states such as Uttar Pradesh need, it is what India needs. ASAP.

Friend, the problem is manmohan singh do you know nowadays more farmers commits suicide compared to 1992 (per-liberalization era).

Because the govt. have sucked out all the public investment in from the agriculture.

- The green revolution was possible because of public money (It was not because of private money lander)

- Nowadays farmers don't have any other option other then private money lander

- Govt. agencies like PUSA, ICAR etc. which have developed new agricultural technologies, hybrid seeds are are facing funds problem. Apart from these no new research and development agencies/institutions are not evolved due to lack of funding.

- The cold storage and grain storage etc. are not being build as they have build in per-liberalization era.

- There are yearly floods and droughts cycle but no actin is taken to control that.

- Govt. rant about poverty but forgets that there are 65%-70% of our population dependent of agriculture if govt. makes agriculture profitable then 65%-70% of Indian population will automatically comes out of poverty and the sending by rural economy will take care of rest of the 30% of population too.

- Take the example of potatoes:

I have seen the news of farmers burning and dumping potatoes on roads in punjab-haryana-UP. Because they are getting only Rs. 1 per kg for their potatoes but we people in Delhi gets potatoes at Rs. 10-12 per kgs.

Now tell me how these farmers will feed their kids or they should suicide?????? :ohno:

- Then govt. propagated the myth that the opening of retail to foreigners will take care of all. :bash:

That's not true:

1. Potato farmers in Punjab have bad experience with Pepsi (Lay's brand of chips) where Pepsi promises that it will purchase potatoes at good rates but as the rate falls Pepsi refuses to buy potates from Punjab and makes fake arguments of bad quality.

2. Another example is from Kerala where MNC choclate maker have promised Malayali farmers that they will purchase their crop at good rates but as the rates falls all over the world.

The same MNC have broken its promise and purchased it from Africa at half of the price. :bash::bash:

And farmers of Kerala felt cheated as they can't do anything in that case.

So, humbly, I believe building multi-lane expressways along flood prone rivers such as Ganga isn't land grab, it is a gift, it is a necessity, it is what states such as Uttar Pradesh need, it is what India needs. ASAP.

for that an expressway is not a necessity, what is important is that SHs and local roads need to be strengthened by the State govt.

- The green revolution was possible because of public money (It was not because of private money lander)

[...]

- The cold storage and grain storage etc. are not being build as they have build in per-liberalization era.

- There are yearly floods and droughts cycle but no actin is taken to control that.

[...]

- Then govt. propagated the myth that the opening of retail to foreigners will take care of all. :bash:



It is good to know, Anidel, that you also care about Indian farmers.

You have written about a lot of issues. All of them are interesting. This is an expressway forum, one within Highways and Bridges. Allow me to skip comments irrelevant to this forum, and focus on a few that are relevant.

First, it is difficult to understand your claims. From everything I know, green revolution in India, and everywhere else in our world, had nothing to do with money lenders. Green revolution was all about building hydroelectric projects, flood control, irrigation canal networks, introducing hybrid seeds, building rural roads, expanding fertilizer production capacity, delivering fertilizers on time to farm, crop disease prevention, etc etc.

The design documents for Ganga Expressway and Upper Ganges Expressway with interconnects/offshoots, suggest an extension of green revolution idea, one which has worked in India, and everywhere else in our world: these expressway projects include flood control, irrigation expansion, hydroelectric plants, highways, etc.

Ganga expressway is going to be built on the top of a flood control embankment. Brilliant idea, solve two problems in one go (lets ignore politicians for a minute, just focus on farmers). Plus, if the government and local people do not have to pay the cost of building it, from their pockets - that is even better. That is win-win.

You claim more cold storage and grain storage capacity was built pre-1990s, than post-1990s. Can you provide any links or references where one can verify your claims? Till you do so, I will continue to trust the references I have that suggest pre-1990s were far worse in agri storage capacity for India, and that even now agri storage facilities are very bad to essentially non-existent in different parts of India.

Logistics and retail are the other critical issue in India. As you point out, Indian farmer gets less than 20% of the price that Indian consumer pays for the same produce a few days later, or even the same day. In developed world, and even in developing countries like Brazil / Thailand / Malaysia / South Africa / China, the farmers on average get 2 to 4 times higher proportion of the local price consumers pay - thanks for innovations, competition and direct sourcing by free market, 100% FDI allowed, supermarkets retail. China was poorer than India in 1970s, farmers committed suicide, millions died of starvation there because of communism/socialism experiments and closed economy that was 100% government planned and owned. People used to greet each other in a local phrase which meant: "have you eaten today?" China understood that that doesn't work; so it ushered in expressways, allowed 100% FDI in retail, eliminated red tape and bureaucracy everywhere. Success followed. Logistics and retail both require quality highways and expressways wherever people live in high density. In Uttar Pradesh, every 1000 square kilometer area is pretty densely populated - the farmer can benefit from every kilometer of better quality roads, every kilometer of expressways. FWIW, France, Germany, Toscana, Japan, and California are some of the fertile agri-regions that are also densely populated; and we have numerous expressways and highways crisscrossing these regions, some built along the major local rivers.

In summary, there is no harm in letting anyone and everyone innovate, invent and compete. Let road infrastructure flourish. Let retail flourish. Farmers do not need handouts to prosper; Indian consumers already pay high prices, the payment simply doesn't reach farmers; middlemen waste it and binge on it. Give farmers multiple competing options to choose who to sell and at what price - let him prosper based on his merit, quality, willingness to work hard, and excellence; soon the talented will, and India has a lot of unused talent waiting to be free.

for that an expressway is not a necessity, what is important is that SHs and local roads need to be strengthened by the State govt.

A road network is like human blood circulation system. You need major arteries (expressways) as well as the capillaries (state highways and local roads).

Some traffic moves most efficiently on expressways, across long distances. Logistics, farm equipment, harvest etc.

To give a specific example, you can either built 10000 small fertilizer plants in a state and distribute the fertilizer locally, or build 10 big fertilizer plants in distant locations then truck it to 10000+ villages. The 10 big plants will be far more efficient and lower cost to build/operate, than 10000 plants. The price of fertilizer is much lower from more efficient, lower cost plants. But then, you need expressways to move the inputs and outputs over long distances, quickly / on time / reliably / at lowest cost / lowest pollution.

I have driven a lot in Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium and most of agri-developed countries. The traffic on these expressways always includes significant to heavy agri-related logistics and supermarket retail cargo on some stretches and in some seasons.

"Its just a trick to grab valuable agricultural land..."

This is the most stupid argument now doing the rounds and have become fashionable among pseudo intellectuals. This is 21st century and India does not have to reinvent the wheel. Benefits of highways and expressways are well documented in developed nations. Look at what interstates have done for USA. Highways are linear projects and the amount of land they need in comparison to the beneficial effects they have on the regions they pass through is insignificant. According to this argument all the areas with valuable lands must remain without any major highways and factories.-, ironically these are the areas which are densely populated. Open your eyes, if you want to become a modern nation you have to build highways and expressways and yes they will need agricultural land. There should be no excuse for not to build infrastructure. One more thing, at present state agriculture is not sustainable. Look at number of farmer suicides across the country. You have to provide them alternative jobs other than farming.

Yes, the politicos are having a field day by peddling b.s. arguments. It is either land lost or farmers lives at stake. Both of these are bogus. The politicos are the worst offenders of land grab illegally. They usurp all govt land and now they shed tears for the farmers. Which is another boogey man they create. Why the hell do farmers need to continue forever in farms eking out a meagre living. We have around 50-70% of population stuck in farms forever. They need to move to the modern industrial/information age. We can't have such a high percentage of population devoted to farms. A smaller percentage using efficient methods can supply 2x or 3x current production rates. The rest of them transition to industrial/information sectors. This is the 21st century and most of the old ideas need to be booted out. India is on its way to becoming one of the leading nations in the world, it needs to act and behave like one and plan on the transition very soon.

Why the hell do farmers need to continue forever in farms eking out a meagre living. We have around 50-70% of population stuck in farms forever.

Good insight there, Barrykul.

Not only are the farmers stuck in that back-breaking, uncertain-crop, forever-poverty; the rising rural population of India will only lead to cutting that piece of land into smaller pieces.

Every year, India adds about 15 million additional people every year - a Germany every 5 years. Even though the rate of birth is declining per 1000 people, India's average life expectancy is rising every year, thanks to its economic growth, vaccinations, health care talent and caring families. Net result: we should expect more people in India over the next 20 years, than the current 1.2 billion.

The next generation of India, one born after 2005, needs housing not slums, schools not gang wars, well paying jobs not low-income flood-prone 1/2 acre go-farm lecture, market opportunities not political pawning, freedom not serfdom. And all of these uplifting goals are only possible with infrastructure. Schools and hospitals and industries and non-slum housing and the rest - for the rising population - need land to get built. And they need expressways and road networks to bring construction equipment, crews, resources, books, electricity, sewage treatment plants, clean river plants, pollution prevention technologies, water pipelines, annual maintenance, work teams, etc.

It is difficult to understand why some call "development and investment as grab and greed?" Have they never lived in a farm, rise at 4 AM, toil day and night with poor tools to till/seed/de-weed the land, occasionally smile with a good crop, occasionally weep with a bad crop. If they have, they must have asked: "isn't there a more productive, reliable way to feed my family?" Don't you think?

A road network is like human blood circulation system. You need major arteries (expressways) as well as the capillaries (state highways and local roads).



first build capillaries, having arteries will not solve any problem. You need roads at farmer's doorstep in each & every village rather than a mega unviable expressway in middle of nothing.

first build capillaries, having arteries will not solve any problem. You need roads at farmer's doorstep in each & every village rather than a mega unviable expressway in middle of nothing.

You can not cost-effectively build quality capillaries without quality major arteries.

Quality roads, even one lane or two lane, need large equipment and heavy duty skilled crew to build; particularly if you want them to be all-season, reliable, long lasting, robustly designed, lower cost, and finished quickly. You can not move heavy and expensive equipment, over dirt roads; the rental cost of such expensive equipment per day is high, and you want to be using it productively every day.

That is the experience of the United States, Europe and every major developed country / developing country. If you study history, study infrastructure history in the years after Dwight Eisenhower - you will find that rural roads and state highways boomed after and as the expressways completed. Guess which state paved the first expressway post-Eisenhower initiative? It was Kansas, an agricultural state in the middle of nothing, with very low population!!

But, that aside, I feel states such as Uttar Pradesh are not middle of nothing. Some 200 million people live there - that is more than France, Germany, Switzerland and Italy combined. I am not sure why you are calling the lives and condition of 200 million people as nothing?

The problem expressways can solve is not just faster completion of quality capillary roads, they also help move perishable food produce to bigger markets, helping the economy grow, allowing them to be able to afford the cost of rural/urban/expressway roads built. Moving produce over rural/small town roads with street lights / lower speed limit / congested traffic is 2 to 5 times slower, than expressways - that is the case in the US and Europe's rural and urban areas.

keep it up:-) I tried defending the expressway for quite sometime but i guess your arguments are more supported with info from US/Europe.
From Indian / UP or BSP perspective expressways and townships along it will help get rid of caste system in India/UP at much faster rate besides all other arguments we have presented in support.

Now on wards I will just sit and read the posts.




You can not cost-effectively build quality capillaries without quality major arteries.

Quality roads, even one lane or two lane, need large equipment and heavy duty skilled crew to build; particularly if you want them to be all-season, reliable, long lasting, robustly designed, lower cost, and finished quickly. You can not move heavy and expensive equipment, over dirt roads; the rental cost of such expensive equipment per day is high, and you want to be using it productively every day.

That is the experience of the United States, Europe and every major developed country / developing country. If you study history, study infrastructure history in the years after Dwight Eisenhower - you will find that rural roads and state highways boomed after and as the expressways completed. Guess which state paved the first expressway post-Eisenhower initiative? It was Kansas, an agricultural state in the middle of nothing, with very low population!!

But, that aside, I feel states such as Uttar Pradesh are not middle of nothing. Some 200 million people live there - that is more than France, Germany, Switzerland and Italy combined. I am not sure why you are calling the lives and condition of 200 million people as nothing?

The problem expressways can solve is not just faster completion of quality capillary roads, they also help move perishable food produce to bigger markets, helping the economy grow, allowing them to be able to afford the cost of rural/urban/expressway roads built. Moving produce over rural/small town roads with street lights / lower speed limit / congested traffic is 2 to 5 times slower, than expressways - that is the case in the US and Europe's rural and urban areas.

please don't compare India to US or developed countries, they developed in 50s we are developing in 2000s. The viability is a big concern.

The viability is a big concern.

That is not obvious to me. Please explain what you mean by viability.

---

m: yep, all we can do is to learn from each other. Learning from each other's experiences, successes and tragedies is what makes us human beings.

Relax!

I think Mayawati will ensure this will get built.

Not building it will be like kissing development good bye.

If this state is to prosper then this Expressway needs to be built.

I dont know the issues about land & the farmers dispute.......its always complicated & why does it have to be so complicated!!!! I keep an open mind.

You can not cost-effectively build quality capillaries without quality major arteries.

Quality roads, even one lane or two lane, need large equipment and heavy duty skilled crew to build; particularly if you want them to be all-season, reliable, long lasting, robustly designed, lower cost, and finished quickly. You can not move heavy and expensive equipment, over dirt roads; the rental cost of such expensive equipment per day is high, and you want to be using it productively every day.

That is the experience of the United States, Europe and every major developed country / developing country. If you study history, study infrastructure history in the years after Dwight Eisenhower - you will find that rural roads and state highways boomed after and as the expressways completed. Guess which state paved the first expressway post-Eisenhower initiative? It was Kansas, an agricultural state in the middle of nothing, with very low population!!

But, that aside, I feel states such as Uttar Pradesh are not middle of nothing. Some 200 million people live there - that is more than France, Germany, Switzerland and Italy combined. I am not sure why you are calling the lives and condition of 200 million people as nothing?

The problem expressways can solve is not just faster completion of quality capillary roads, they also help move perishable food produce to bigger markets, helping the economy grow, allowing them to be able to afford the cost of rural/urban/expressway roads built. Moving produce over rural/small town roads with street lights / lower speed limit / congested traffic is 2 to 5 times slower, than expressways - that is the case in the US and Europe's rural and urban areas.

Yep, good points.

There is a sea of humanity in UP and fairly large cities along Ganga. It is really so crowded along Ganga that you just don't get a break from people. I wish Kolkata was doing better. It would have helped UP and other states surrounding WB to grow. Ganga expressway would have been a no-brainer then. Even so, Eastern UP (Poorvanchal area) has bunch of industries with many power plants, HINDALCO etc. and once the expressway reaches the border, think about the raw materials from Jharkhand that can be easily transported to western UP and beyond. I have no access to numbers on expected traffic etc and its viability from pure finance point of view but it will have a huge positive impact on UP's economy and I see more industries will come up along the expressway. It will be a virtuous circle and that will also help the expressway.

Relax!
I dont know the issues about land & the farmers dispute.......its always complicated & why does it have to be so complicated!!!! I keep an open mind.

Farmer protests and land issues are always complicated, and they do not have to be.

Land issues have been resolved everywhere in the world. Every developed country, before it became a developed country, had to deal with it.

The problem is one of aligning the interests of the farmer, farmer's community and the project. If someone gets paid in full upfront, they have nothing to loose by protesting and blocking the project later and demanding "pay us more." This happens everywhere.

Solutions are to be found in the history books of other countries. One being that payment for land be a combination of land bonds and upfront payments.

I have no access to numbers on expected traffic etc and its viability from pure finance point of view but it will have a huge positive impact on UP's economy and I see more industries will come up along the expressway. It will be a virtuous circle and that will also help the expressway.

That virtuous cycle is what India needs. One can either keep cutting a fixed sized pie into smaller parts, or figure out a way to grow the pie.

Ganga expressway was bid by many consortiums. Let us then grant these financially astute teams, each independently owned, are unlikely to reach the same "we want to build this" conclusion, if the traffic projections and returns were not attractive.

In most cases, the savings from fuel efficiency, time, reduced pollution, food losses more than offset the expense of using expressways. Individual savings add up as net wealth created for the community.

And that virtuous cycle you mention adds in. Expressways help bring in equipment to build factories, housing areas, hospitals, schools, etc. They also help during floods or disease outbreaks or earthquakes or other natural disasters, etc. (reminds me of Florida here, when our 6 lane expressways become one way to let people get out of the state before a hurricane hits them; or more relevant may be MO, MS and LA where huge number of people get out of certain regions using the freeways, before floods crest above dangerous levels).

So, yes, arteries carry blood and bring nutrients when we are healthy and when natural tragedies challenge our frail bodies. Mother nature is a fine example of expressways and road networks.

We dont know what is going to be the outcome of the elections. This time elections looks to be bit complex and it would be foolish to guess any thing till last vote is counted.

I see a maturity in the way politics is happening in UP. depending on the political party in power project is named on one of its leader. Almost every scheme from congress is named after Gandhi/Nehru. Once you name a scheme after its leader my personal experience is opposition party when comes in power either scrape the project or re launch it with new name or just ignore the implementation.

Maya has done really good thing by not politisizing the Expressways in UP. She could have named them after Ambedkar, Kanshiram etc but decided to keep non political name. By doing this one thing is assured that if some other party comes to power and shows inclination to development I am sure without hesitation they can implement it.

Good sign for UP politics!








Relax!

I think Mayawati will ensure this will get built.

Not building it will be like kissing development good bye.

If this state is to prosper then this Expressway needs to be built.

I dont know the issues about land & the farmers dispute.......its always complicated & why does it have to be so complicated!!!! I keep an open mind.

please don't compare India to US or developed countries, they developed in 50s we are developing in 2000s. The viability is a big concern.

What does this statement mean?

People who gives argument against highways and expressways have no idea how economy works.

^^ I wouldn't go so far. It is not as black and white. One has to evaluate it on case by case basis and it is important to be careful about white elephants. One misstep on a such a large investment and you may see investors running away from other projects as well.

In a country like India where there is shortage of good roads such projects can never go wrong.

In real life actually many things can go wrong

most imp parameter in any democracy to execute big projects is political will and not many politicians in India currently have will and work on charity kind of projects (RTF, NREGS, loan waiver etc)

second is environment clearance. When and how to get out of this undefined mess?

third obvious question is how jaypee is going to raise 80,000cr rs for the project. Jaypee and UP govt both would like to finish the project in smallest possible window to keep min disturbances from protests etc. Raising 80,000cr in short time is a challenge

Fourth: UP govt has to make sure legally they are absolutely correct and can withstand the scrutiny of SC/HC. This is easy part as we now have experience of Yamuna Expressway

NICE in Karnataka is classic example of bad bidding, legal problems and lack of political will.



In a country like India where there is shortage of good roads such projects can never go wrong.

In real life actually many things can go wrong

most imp parameter in any democracy to execute big projects is political will and not many politicians in India currently have will and work on charity kind of projects (RTF, NREGS, loan waiver etc)

second is environment clearance. When and how to get out of this undefined mess?

third obvious question is how jaypee is going to raise 80,000cr rs for the project. Jaypee and UP govt both would like to finish the project in smallest possible window to keep min disturbances from protests etc. Raising 80,000cr in short time is a challenge

Fourth: UP govt has to make sure legally they are absolutely correct and can withstand the scrutiny of SC/HC. This is easy part as we now have experience of Yamuna Expressway

NICE in Karnataka is classic example of bad bidding, legal problems and lack of political will.

Raising funds is easy. The world's annual GDP is over $60 trillion, that is $6,000,000 crores or INR 300,000,000 crores. The global wealth, that is investment capital pool, is many times bigger than the world's annual GDP. Investors can easily invest 100,000 crores.

Environmental permits is a complicated subject. Without sustainable projects, one which respect, protect and preserve environment and ecology, one would do more harm.

In some developing countries, activists attack all development projects - they argue the project will cause destruction of land, water, aquatic life, wetlands, way of life, little birds, migrating birds, vectors, plus life loss during earthquakes in distant future, and so on. The activists are very clever - they send copies to media hungry for sensational stories. And then drama starts, public interest litigations follow, committees with grey hair and judges with spectacles study it for months and years, as they should. The drama plays out, sometimes with a happy ending, sometimes with a tragic ending.

The way out is actually way in, as is now done in many environmentally conscious societies with excellent ecological and environmental records.

You see, there is no project that does not have an environmental effect. Human activity always affects environment - in good and bad ways. Lack of human activity always affects environment - in good and bad ways. Humanity can only choose between good and bad. Inaction often does more harm, than action. Floods and diseases and cattle dung burning and smoke cause more environmental damage, more ecological damage than infrastructure that prevents or reduces impact of flood and diseases and brings in clean fuel. Environmental studies must compare what happens with the project, with what happens without the project. Often, this is not done. Environmental impact studies are one sided, defensive document that ignore the damage, harm, destitution and environmental destruction that happens every year without that project.

So, impact studies are important. They must be done right. This, I agree, is India's major challenge. A challenge that talented and well meaning people can easily overcome.

:nuts:

seriously you don't have any idea about investment, money raising and viability of a project. When did you visit india last time?

:nuts:

seriously you don't have any idea about investment, money raising and viability of a project. When did you visit india last time?

December 2011 is the last time I visited India. Investment and financing projects all over the world is what I do for a living. Please do not attack me personally.

So, impact studies are important. They must be done right. This, I agree, is India's major challenge. A challenge that talented and well meaning people can easily overcome.
----------------------------------------------------

If we judge development projects only on engineering / technical basis we in India I am sure have enough people who are solution oriented and can find way to implement big projects. Problem is with politics and because of it decisions many times are strictly not on basis of its merits but on mileage one gets by granting or not granting the permission.

Problem is not in raising 80,000crore over a period of time but the small window one gets in its 5year term to implement the project. Land acquisition has to be done in short period of time and project has to be implement at a speed that does not give much opportunity for others to react/protest. You need most of funds in just 2-3years time for successful implementation of project. You generally take tough decisions in 1st and 2nd year and please people in 5th year of term. (if govt is in majority)

Won't this project be screwed up if Congress comes to power?
They have a Penchant for screwing up Road projects.

In politics one week is also long time so would be foolish to predict anything

If you go by media reports then chances of congress forming govt independently are remote. Yes by supporting BSP / SP they may become part of govt in case no one gets majority.

What will happen to the project if BSP forms the govt with congress support is really interesting to watch.

If SP forms the govt with congress support I am quite confident project will be put in cold storage. SP and congress both are targeting OBC votes who are mostly farmers and in such situation land acquisition from farmers will be last priority.




Won't this project be screwed up if Congress comes to power?
They have a Penchant for screwing up Road projects.

In politics one week is also long time so would be foolish to predict anything

If you go by media reports then chances of congress forming govt independently are remote. Yes by supporting BSP / SP they may become part of govt in case no one gets majority.

What will happen to the project if BSP forms the govt with congress support is really interesting to watch.

If SP forms the govt with congress support I am quite confident project will be put in cold storage. SP and congress both are targeting OBC votes who are mostly farmers and in such situation land acquisition from farmers will be last priority.
So, I was more or less on the right track. Only Maya and the BJP can save this.

In recent posts, at least one person here claims "expressways such as the ganga expressway are not viable." My last attempt to request explanation did not result in answers.

Can someone explain why or list facts behind that claim?

simple question- How will you recover your cost Rs 80,000 crore, when you have to pay nearly 10-12% interest on 80% of the cost that is on Rs 65,000 crore of loans. You will have to pay Rs 7,000 crore of interest on loans every year for 20 years or even more! Can you find a way even to break even? why will any private sector company take the risk of being bankrupt and stalling a "mega project"?

December 2011 is the last time I visited India. Investment and financing projects all over the world is what I do for a living. Please do not attack me personally.

sorry but you need to have an idea of interest rates & financing in Indian infra projects.

SSCaddict - do you have finance background or any experience in global infrastructure projects?

For what it is worth, 8-12% interest rates are nothing unusual. China fed rates are above 6%. Mega-billion dollar projects in China, much much bigger than Ganga Expressway, get financed every so often at rates much higher (exact rates depend on maturity, coupon bond or bullet bond structure, seniority of debt, expected inflation, currency factors, availability of collateral or guarantees, other terms). Same in Latin America, and elsewhere. There is tons of literature on this, for those who wish to study this.

For example, see this: http://www.unctad.org/en/docs/iteiit20081a5_en.pdf

The interest rates you mention apply to pretty much any and all Indian infrastructure projects. No? If your argument has any merit, no projects in India would have any investor interest. As you probably know, that is far from true.

Beyond the issue of interest rates, equity versus debt structure, traffic volume projections in a densely populated 200 million people state, the financing issue is the building consortium responsibility.

Why should you or anyone else worry about the terms of financing? Why not let investors, investment bankers, bond/convertibles specialists, talented financial teams in India and the world decide and determine it?

sorry but you need to have an idea of interest rates & financing in Indian infra projects.

Explain how your 1.4 trillion list of Indian megaprojects will get financed? what do you think of that list in your signature line that is 100+ times bigger than one expressway project?:

INDIAN MEGAPROJECTS MAIN THREAD ( $1.4 TRILLION, LAST UPDATED 15 January 2012)

So, I was more or less on the right track. Only Maya and the BJP can save this.

yes its safe to conclude....

Even in the worst case if lets assume SP comes to power I am optimistic that Upper Ganga Canal project will be executed. Environment clearence is almsot done and not much land has to be acquired. This project will help transform the image SP currently desperately looking for. SP knows that if they dont evolve in fast changing Indian dynamic political situation they will soon see the fate of Lalu Prashad (RJD).

yes its safe to conclude....

Even in the worst case if lets assume SP comes to power I am optimistic that Upper Ganga Canal project will be executed. Environment clearence is almsot done and not much land has to be acquired. This project will help transform the image SP currently desperately looking for. SP knows that if they dont evolve in fast changing Indian dynamic political situation they will soon see the fate of Lalu Prashad (RJD).
True.
Is this entirely by JP?

Explain how your 1.4 trillion list of Indian megaprojects will get financed? what do you think of that list in your signature line that is 100+ times bigger than one expressway project?:

INDIAN MEGAPROJECTS MAIN THREAD ( $1.4 TRILLION, LAST UPDATED 15 January 2012)

ohhhhh my big broooooo... these projects are power,steel & projects which have secured revenues(by selling power,steel etc). Ganga expressway depends on the BIG RISK. It will depend on the property sales & it is not similar to yamuna expressway which was NCR. This goes through most poorest regions of UP. I think you will not understand what i am trying to say and chinese develop by backing from the state whereas this is a private sector project, no backing from state.

ohhhhh my big broooooo... these projects are power,steel & projects which have secured revenues(by selling power,steel etc). Ganga expressway depends on the BIG RISK. It will depend on the property sales & it is not similar to yamuna expressway which was NCR. This goes through most poorest regions of UP. I think you will not understand what i am trying to say and chinese develop by backing from the state whereas this is a private sector project, no backing from state.
Relax. To break even, the concessionaire needs to get good toll revenue.

I think you will not understand what i am trying to say and chinese develop by backing from the state whereas this is a private sector project, no backing from state.

You are making weird and wrong claims. That is why it is difficult to understand you.

Consider your claim about Chinese expressways being state backed, not by private sector such as the Ganga Expressway.

Google Chinese 7918 / NTHS network. This expressway network links Beijing with 7 major population centers, 9 connecting north and south, and 18 running east and west (that is why it is called 7918). It is largely financed by private companies just like Ganga Expressway is being. The private companies behind 7918 network raise money through bond and stock offerings, build the expressways, and recover money through tolls - just like the proposed Ganga Expressway.

I disagree with your assumptions on property values, etc.; or that majority of 1.4 trillion projects have secured revenues (you have highways on your list, power / steel / etc have little to no secured revenues, most have only expected revenues); etc.

I concur with rsrikanth05. The tolls can cover the cost of capital and more.

I concur with rsrikanth05. The tolls can cover the cost of capital and more.
That is an ideal situation.
Right now most Toll Road concessionaires are complaining of losses.

Traffic volume is not sufficient to recover the investment. Funds will be raised by developing close to 15,000Ha of land as which JP got as land parcels

Page 115 or pdf page TS15 give the volume of traffic as on Nov 2007 and future % increase in volume of traffic
http://www.upeida.in/Document%201.pdf

Many people have problem that value of land parcel in Etah or pratapgarh is not going to be anywhere close to what you can get in NCR.

Earlier also I said that JP and state govt has to work together to bring in industry to the undeveloped areas.

lets assume UPA opens up FDI in retail and Wall mart see the land parcel in Etah as good location for food processing then all the equations will change.

As i said earlier also its very ambitious project and lot of political will is required to make sure is executed successfully. I am confident of the ability fo Maya but yes uncertanties from others will challange the project on daily basis.

The project will connect almost all prominet cities of UP so I dont see any problem in terms of volume of traffic.
Delhi-Noida-Bulendsahar-Lucknow-Kanpur-Allahabad-Varanasi

What else do you need to say that it is not built in remote parts of UP?


That is an ideal situation.
Right now most Toll Road concessionaires are complaining of losses.

oh my god, people believe here that in 30 years you will get Rs 80,000 crore toll. This is equal to around Rs 2,800 crore in a single year. :nuts:

also chinese expressway revenue generation says that-" THEY will recover the cost by toll", which means they are following NHAI way of awarding different stretches to different developer(similar to say awarding different stretches to different developers in Golden Quadrilateral & other projects).

They can recover as it is with many NHAI contracts but you need to understand that this is A TOTALLY PRIVATELY NEWLY BUILT EXPRESSWAY CONNECTING MOST UNDER-DEVELOPED,UNDER INDUSTRIALIZED AREAS OF UTTAR PRADESH.

This is financially unviable and i bet that no private developer will ever build this.

Also i bet you don't have any idea about how things work in Indian infrastructure projects.

Traffic volume is not sufficient to recover the investment. Funds will be raised by developing close to 15,000Ha of land as which JP got as land parcels

Page 115 or pdf page TS15 give the volume of traffic as on Nov 2007 and future % increase in volume of traffic
http://www.upeida.in/Document%201.pdf

Many people have problem that value of land parcel in Etah or pratapgarh is not going to be anywhere close to what you can get in NCR.

Earlier also I said that JP and state govt has to work together to bring in industry to the undeveloped areas.

lets assume UPA opens up FDI in retail and Wall mart see the land parcel in Etah as good location for food processing then all the equations will change.

As i said earlier also its very ambitious project and lot of political will is required to make sure is executed successfully. I am confident of the ability fo Maya but yes uncertanties from others will challange the project on daily basis.

The project will connect almost all prominet cities of UP so I dont see any problem in terms of volume of traffic.
Delhi-Noida-Bulendsahar-Lucknow-Kanpur-Allahabad-Varanasi

What else do you need to say that it is not built in remote parts of UP?


That's what the trap.

There is already a highway parallel to it and govt. of India is going to upgrade it to 6 lanes.

So what's the need of ganga expressway??????

Its a weird logic that first you make some wrong and wild projects and then grab land of farmers for building residential apartments. :bash:


You have proved that its just a trick to grab land and sold it to Jaypee and in return Jaypee will give its cut to mayawati. :bash:

Farmers will loose their land, people of UP will pay high toll + cost from their pocket (as govt. money is public money not mayawati's personal wealth) :bash:

If mayawati was really interested in the development of UP then she should have invited Tata Nano project that can transform UP into a industrial state. :bash:

Just look at the number of biggest automobile MNCs are going Gujarat after that Nano project.

Forget about Tata Nano:

Gurgaon is the biggest center for car/bikes in India but as suzuki was facing problem mayawati should have taken lead and invited suzuki in UP.

As UP is stone trow away from Gurgaon and UP can gain from the supplier network and market so closely.

But mayawati is not interested about UP's development she just want to grab land. :bash::bash:

find time to read different finance models used across the globe. I just did the google search and my suggestion is to read

Unlocking land values to finance urban infrastructure, Volume 794 By George E. Peterson, World Bank, Public-Private Infrastructure Advisory Facility

you can find time to search it on Amazone.

--------------------------

Why do you need a house when you can sleep on the footpath? In Lucknow you can get pink coloured footpaths :-) and in many other places different brand of tiles

Instead of shouting on the forum and repeating same thing millions of time better would be to spend time and collect evidence and give it to SC so that some action can be taken. If Subramanyam Swamy can take UPA govt head on 2G why cant you set an example for us to follow and help clean UP that you hate so much



That's what the trap.

There is already a highway parallel to it and govt. of India is going to upgrade it to 6 lanes.

So what's the need of ganga expressway??????

Its a weird logic that first you make some wrong and wild projects and then grab land of farmers for building residential apartments. :bash:


You have proved that its just a trick to grab land and sold it to Jaypee and in return Jaypee will give its cut to mayawati. :bash:

Farmers will loose their land, people of UP will pay high toll + cost from their pocket (as govt. money is public money not mayawati's personal wealth) :bash:

manufacturing will naturally go to coastal states because of ease of export & import. Check the development across the globe

Loudness never changes truth!


If mayawati was really interested in the development of UP then she should have invited Tata Nano project that can transform UP into a industrial state. :bash:

Just look at the number of biggest automobile MNCs are going Gujarat after that Nano project.

Forget about Tata Nano:

Gurgaon is the biggest center for car/bikes in India but as suzuki was facing problem mayawati should have taken lead and invited suzuki in UP.

As UP is stone trow away from Gurgaon and UP can gain from the supplier network and market so closely.

But mayawati is not interested about UP's development she just want to grab land. :bash::bash:

can you explain how without acquiring land you can invite industry in UP?

If you acquire land then people have problem..when you dont bring industry then people have problem (industry is not going to grow on trees!)... if you plan then people have problem why parks and roads..if you dont plan then you see all cities as slums...

cynical person can never sees positivies in his life and bigger problem is he/she starts dreaming that world revolves around him/her

before writing at least make sure you dont write contradicting statements.



If mayawati was really interested in the development of UP then she should have invited Tata Nano project that can transform UP into a industrial state. :bash:

Just look at the number of biggest automobile MNCs are going Gujarat after that Nano project.

Forget about Tata Nano:

Gurgaon is the biggest center for car/bikes in India but as suzuki was facing problem mayawati should have taken lead and invited suzuki in UP.

As UP is stone trow away from Gurgaon and UP can gain from the supplier network and market so closely.

But mayawati is not interested about UP's development she just want to grab land. :bash::bash:

can you explain how without acquiring land you can invite industry in UP?


m_1973 - neither anidel nor sscaddict have any experience in finance, or infrastructure financing, or economics, or economic history, or lessons from China's recent 1000+ kilometer single private builder projects through regions of China that are poorer than Uttar Pradesh, or anything relevant to this topic.

Their method of argument is ad hominem, personal attacks, bullying and such inhuman treatment. Deep within them, these people feel if you can attribute a bad trait to your opponent, others will tend to doubt the quality of their arguments, even if their alleged bad trait is irrelevant to the arguments.

Ignore them. Let us have our own dialogue, one of like minded people, who care about the poor, who believe in hope, who trust hard work and initiative is the only thing that ever transforms human history. Those who use ad hominem deserve our compassion and forgiveness and love, not our time.

That is an ideal situation.
Right now most Toll Road concessionaires are complaining of losses.

That is normal, rsrikanth05. Most infrastructure projects and even mega-projects start out with losses, sometimes for years, before the revenue picks up to being cash flow positive. This is already built into financing and cash flow assumptions.

If local population delays projects in progress, burns equipment, prevents entrepreneurial freedom, losses will be more. One risk is that socialists and communists-inspired activists will slow progress, much like what has happened in West Bengal and Orissa in last 10 years (Tata Nano etc.). One needs just 1000 demonstrators to show up with one self-focused political leader, and media / TV crews, to stop or slow the projects. This may be a risk.

Another risk is land acquisition costs. Road projects in parts of India factor in land costs above $75000 per acre, or $100,000. Land costs about 50 kilometers from city centers of Sydney, Munich, Paris, New York, Chicago and many many other wealthy cities is less than 5 times that much; and is less than 10-25 times that much 100+ kilometers away. I find it strange that people who argue "the state is very poor" also argue that "pay $100,000 per acre for land in remote, impoverished area where the land produces no crop or crop worth less than $400 per year." Land acquisition costs are another risk.

^^ actually as i said that you don't have any knowledge about Indian infra projects, orissa has seen the most industrial activity in last 6 years than Haryana, punjab, Delhi, UP, WB, Bihar & many other states.And what????? Rs 50 lakh per acre??? Dude Rs 6-15 lakh acre is the max price for large highways, power plants & steel plants. If the companies pay what you have written then they will go bankrupt.

m_1973 - neither anidel nor sscaddict have any experience in finance, or infrastructure financing, or economics, or economic history, or lessons from China's recent 1000+ kilometer single private builder projects through regions of China that are poorer than Uttar Pradesh, or anything relevant to this topic.


let us see whether this is built in next 50 years or not by a PRIVATE player :)

We really ought to be discussing this after Assembly elections IMO.

IF SP comes to power -all this discussion will be futile in any case. Lets just kick back and return when the time is right!! All this speculation is mostly informative - the opinions too are diverse, but unfortunately about a project that's not even being whispered in the corridors of power - so unless Maya or Mulayam is personally reading this thread- might be better to focus our energies on tangible projects!!

I was about to type the same thing...

Lets wait till 6th march and see whats the fate of UP! even if maya comes to power it will take at least 1year to get environment clearance..with some arm twisting of UPA 2


We really ought to be discussing this after Assembly elections IMO.

IF SP comes to power -all this discussion will be futile in any case. Lets just kick back and return when the time is right!! All this speculation is mostly informative - the opinions too are diverse, but unfortunately about a project that's not even being whispered in the corridors of power - so unless Maya or Mulayam is personally reading this thread- might be better to focus our energies on tangible projects!!

m_1973 - neither anidel nor sscaddict have any experience in finance, or infrastructure financing, or economics, or economic history, or lessons from China's recent 1000+ kilometer single private builder projects through regions of China that are poorer than Uttar Pradesh, or anything relevant to this topic.

Their method of argument is ad hominem, personal attacks, bullying and such inhuman treatment. Deep within them, these people feel if you can attribute a bad trait to your opponent, others will tend to doubt the quality of their arguments, even if their alleged bad trait is irrelevant to the arguments.

Ignore them. Let us have our own dialogue, one of like minded people, who care about the poor, who believe in hope, who trust hard work and initiative is the only thing that ever transforms human history. Those who use ad hominem deserve our compassion and forgiveness and love, not our time.

Is your verbal diarrhea over or you need some more time, Mr know it all cum Mr over smart?????????? :eek::eek:

1. Nobody is denying the fact that a hugely populated and big country like India need more and more highways & expressways.

No one can argue on that.

2. You are twisting facts, what you are forgetting is that we are not arguing about the usefulness of expressway but Ganga expressway in the views of many people and experts its a Mayawati's trick to make some big money.

manufacturing will naturally go to coastal states because of ease of export & import. Check the development across the globe

This is what happen when someone posts without any research or take himself as Mr. know it all. :lol::lol:

You have made yourself a laughing stroke.

1. Is Gurgaon located in coastal area?? :nuts::nuts:

2. You should first read before posting what I have said that as Suzuki was planning another plant Mayawati should invited Suzuki in the UP as for decades Gurgaon was the biggest automobile hub of India despite not being a coastal states :banana:


Loudness never changes truth!

Nor arrogance and ignorance. :ohno:

if you are not going to allow land acquisition how industry will come to any state?
rhetoric does not even has value of arrogance and ignorance that only shows deep rooted basis. Present your facts to SC and not me because i have no powers to prosecute and execute. I will be the first person to garland you with 1000rs notes!



This is what happen when someone posts without any research or take himself as Mr. know it all. :lol::lol:

You have made yourself a laughing stroke.

1. Is Gurgaon located in coastal area?? :nuts::nuts:

2. You should first read before posting what I have said that as Suzuki was planning another plant Mayawati should invited Suzuki in the UP as for decades Gurgaon was the biggest automobile hub of India despite not being a coastal states :banana:




Nor arrogance and ignorance. :ohno:

^^ Could you stop with the name calling and mud slinging?

Here are some recent results from Chinese Expressway companies. They were loosing money in years immediately after the expressway launch.

Zhejiang Expressway: >15% increase in toll revenues. (Market Cap: ~$4 billion)
Shenzhen Expressway: >500% increase. (Market Cap: $1.6 billion)
Sichuan Expressway and Jiangsu Expressway: >12% rise in toll incomes. (Combined market Cap: ~$6.5 billion)

Chinese Expressway companies, many of which are now traded on stock exchanges, are amongst the best performing companies in China. Toll road sector has been one of the three most profitable businesses in China for the most recent two years.

These expressway arteries have propelled the very poor agriculture areas around these expressways to high growth and local job creation rates.

This thread closing in 5...4...3....2...1.....

This thread closing in 5...4...3....2...1.....
Why? Code of Conduct?

if you are not going to allow land acquisition how industry will come to any state?

No body is saying that there is no need for land acquisition, :ohno: we are all for land acquisition but the point is about the mayawati's motives behind them. She is just grabbing land in name of development and giving it to her pet Jaypee.

That's the whole point.



rhetoric does not even has value of arrogance and ignorance that only shows deep rooted basis.

Usual BS and trying to run away from debate after loosing points.

Present your facts to SC and not me because i have no powers to prosecute and execute.

I know ur power and capacity but you are debating about the issue even when you don't have any power why??????? because we are having a intellectual discussion.

You can't have the cake and eat it too.

You have to decide that you are debating because you have powers OR you are debating just for the sake of academic discussion even though you are powerless.:lol:

I will be the first person to garland you with 1000rs notes!

See that's the deference between our thinking.

I am not mayawati to go for garland of 1000rs notes.:ohno:

^^ Pet JAYPEE?
Le what?
Have you seen the Yamuna Expressway?
If the GE comes up, it'll change the face of UP from start to end.

^^ Pet JAYPEE?
Le what?
Have you seen the Yamuna Expressway?
If the GE comes up, it'll change the face of UP from start to end.

1. Bro, have you seen the CWG?? It was a success we have topped the list (came 2nd) opening ceremony was amazing and the infrastructure it have created for sports.

And believe me CWG have completely changed Delhi's look and feel if you have visited Delhi before and after CWG 2010 you can say that with conviction what it have done to Delhi.

Still we are after kalmadi why??? because of corruption, isn't.

2. And why people don't understand a simple thing:

- I am not against GE

- I am not against expressways

- I am not against land acquisition

Its obvious that we need good infrastructure and land acquisition and environment matters are part and parcel of it.

I am all for expressway, we should have multiple expressway in state like UP where huge population about 20% of Indians lives.

3. The only thing is that GE should be without corruption and land grabbing other then expressway or few genuine industrial townships along its route.

No to Mayawati, yes to GE.

Here are some recent results from Chinese Expressway companies. They were loosing money in years immediately after the expressway launch.

Zhejiang Expressway: >15% increase in toll revenues. (Market Cap: ~$4 billion)
Shenzhen Expressway: >500% increase. (Market Cap: $1.6 billion)
Sichuan Expressway and Jiangsu Expressway: >12% rise in toll incomes. (Combined market Cap: ~$6.5 billion)

Chinese Expressway companies, many of which are now traded on stock exchanges, are amongst the best performing companies in China. Toll road sector has been one of the three most profitable businesses in China for the most recent two years.

These expressway arteries have propelled the very poor agriculture areas around these expressways to high growth and local job creation rates.

bro please listen to me carefully:-

1) There is huge difference between china & India. Chinese industry boom has led the traffic growth in major cities like Shenzhen. It was a village 30 years ago and today it is the electronic hub of the world.

2) Now try to understand the financial model of Shenzhen Expressway. The expressways like the Shenzhen Expressway company you have talked about is similar to IRB infra. It is an Indian company which has many highway projects under its kitty & has more than Rs 770 crore of toll revenues &
has a profit of Rs 105 crore for last fiscal. Now this is highly profitable business. Similar is the case with GMR infra'sReliance infra, L&T etc road portfolios.

3) Special cases of yamuna expressway & ganga expressway. YE was a first experiment of its case in India. What it said that a private company will be given land parcels around the expressway, no aid will be given by the state to the developer, it will collect 30 years of toll and that is it. Now JAYPEE came forward & built it and it has been a huge success. Why? Because unlike other toll roads, it is generating Rs 1500 crore of profits even before the expressway opens! Due to the property sales of land parcels. The property sales are used to cover the expense of construction & service the debt. This made the company financially strong as assets soared & with the expressway the prices of land parcels shot by 1,00,000% and more. So this model was a success BUT the big question was that since it required huge land for townships is this feasible for other similar projects? The answer is a big NO because this was near the CAPITAL city DELHI and the property hub of the country. Therefore they were able to sell large chunks of residential & commercial flats etc.

4) Ganga expressway
a) Since firstly it is parallel to a national highway therefore it is very difficult to raise toll rates, also the parallel 6 lane highway will give it a tough competition.
b) Since it is not near any capital city, therefore there is a big risk that the land parcels that the company will be given will fetch the same premium as it did with YE
c) And if the company is not able to recover its cost by property sales then developer will go bankrupt & you will get a project stalled in between thus affecting million of people.
d) The land acquired was on the promise that industry will be developed & people will get jobs but as the time will pass millions will become jobless as the farming community will not work in residential flats or do construction.
e) Seeing all this JAYPEE has internally deferred its plans to develop the project and it is not taking the big risk of cracking its shareholders.

5) I request you to please see that china & India has huge differences, there expressway projects which have been build in past few years(last 3 years) will be a financial disaster in next 10 years. They all will become NPAs and chinese govt. know this. The industrial traffic led to expressway boom which is not the case with India.Also the big difference is the interest rates, since these projects are of 1995 and thereafter therefore interest rates are anywhere b/w 5-6% whereas Indian road developers pay 10-12% interest rates.

Also some of the company you mentioned are indirectly owned by state

example 1) "The Company was incorporated on March 1, 1997 as the main vehicle of the Zhejiang Provincial Government for investing in, developing and operating expressways and Class 1 roads in Zhejiang Province. " from their (http://www.zjec.com.cn/en/about2.aspx?c_kind=1&c_kind2=10) website

2) Here (http://www.sz-expressway.com/UploadFiles/2011/10/27195100A1B02C35.pdf) is the Q3 results of Shenzhen expressway limited, you can see on page 10. The borrowing cost is just 4.56%. That is damn damn cheap. In india borrowing cost is around 10%. Also the toll revenues has actually decreased for the company.

Shenzhen expressway limited majority shareholder is "Shenzhen International Holdings Limited"(holds 51% in Shenzhen Expressway limited) click here (http://www.szihl.com/eng/aboutus/structure_enlarge.htm)

and which is nothing but a state entity-"Shenzhen Investment Holdings Company Limited, the controlling shareholder of the Company, is a corporation wholly-owned by Shenzhen Municipal State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission and holds approximately 48.59% of the issued share capital of the Company."

click here (http://www.szihl.com/eng/aboutus/profile.htm)

I am all for expressway, we should have multiple expressway in state like UP where huge population about 20% of Indians lives.

The only thing is that GE should be without corruption and land grabbing other then expressway or few genuine industrial townships along its route.


Okay, so most of us agree on what a state like UP needs - expressways are needed, these can create economic opportunities and help lift the next generation of India. This leads us to the questions:

- where in UP would these expressways be most effective, most viable and have the fastest impact in helping increase farm incomes / reduce harvest spoilage / create jobs / prevent future slums / encourage better quality housing / help environment rather than damage it / etc.?
- which townships should expressways connect?
- how many expressways?
- what should be the land acquisition policy so that it is necessary, it is fair, and not so-called land grab, in your opinion?
- what should be the payment or enforcement method to prevent corruption, and ensure that landowners who willingly accept payment upfront do not return and burn equipment a year or two later asking for more money.

Any thoughts?

please read my edited post showing shareholding patterns of expressways you mentioned.

Thanks sscaddict. You put some interesting details this time. Will reply later today.

The industrial traffic led to expressway boom which is not the case with India.

Is the above theory an assumption of yours, or is it a verified theory?

If it is an assumed theory, how will you verify it?

If it is already verified, can you point me to some links or studies from reputable sources, that discuss and prove this. Thanks.

please read my edited post showing shareholding patterns of expressways you mentioned.

sscaddict - I really like the fact that we are discussing real reports. This is how we can learn from each other.

Now, lets look at Shenzhen Expressway presentation link you provided. Right on the page where it says that composite borrowing cost is 4.56%, it says few more things:
- last year borrowing costs were 4.87%
- fix rate interest is 6% on bonds, and that these bonds have a put option at 3 year

So, you should note that the borrowing costs for infra projects changes with time, after the project has been built. What is 10% now, can be 8% two years from now, and 5% five years from now, after the project has been built. Similarly, the borrowing costs depend on the maturity of the bond. If you issue 10 or 15 or 30 year bonds, you will pay much higher than say 1 or 3 year put-option bond.

Shenzhen and many other expressways, even those recently built on BOT basis by private companies in China and other developing countries, have an evolving interest rates. They must pay more before the project is finished because the risks are higher. They begin to pay less and lower rates when they finish and begin collecting tolls.

See their annual reports since they went public on stock market. For Shenzhen, you can verify all this using info here:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=600548:CH

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=600548.SS

Here is an impact study, viability and financing report from Asian Development Bank for Shanxi province expressway network.

http://www.adb.org/Documents/RRPs/PRC/rrp-R149-99.pdf

Shanxi province is similar to UP in some ways. It was and is quite poor. In 1999, the time of the report, the average per capita income was $0.6 per day. It is agricultural region; they grow wheat, legumes, millet, etc. Education attainment is lower than urban part of the country. Corruption allegations are thick. Pollution problems everywhere. Poor infrastructure marked the state. Shanxi is also in the northern part of the country, near nation's capital, Beijing. There are some differences too - Some parts of Shanxi have developed into a mining area. It is not blessed with major rivers. Flooding and resulting crop/livestock destruction is not a routine problem in Shanxi. Etc.

The report discusses

- the status of infrastructure when the project was reviewed
- a method to determine viability
- the projected loan financing rates were 8-9% in certain years (see Appendix)
- the anticipated issues, environment / corruption / expected traffic increase over time / initial cash flow losses / expected rate of return
- effect on the poorest / expected reduction in traffic accidents from better infrastructure / anticipated effect on local incomes / etc etc

Where we are today, about 12 years later?
The expressways were finished. Improved rural / small town road network followed. The average per capita income is now over $10 per day, 15+ times higher than what it was when this report was completed. The manufacturing sector has rapidly grown, to over 50% contribution to state's GDP. Textile, electronics, power, and tourism have been the growth industries in last 7 years. The state has experienced significant improvements in farm yield and output for grain, vegetables, apple and chestnuts. The state has rapidly grown to serve as one of China's biggest fruits grower, processing center and shipper of such agri products.

thanks for replying.

first i will share my views about finance cost:-

1) Since India started to grow rapidly after 2003, at GDP growth rate of 7%+ there has been constant inflationary pressure on the economy. This is because of high demand & the supply not been upto the mark. Also due to rising wages, rising global commodity prices & urbanization food inflation & manufacturing inflation in India since past 3 years has been above 8%. Now why i am telling you this is that due to high inflation the reserve bank will keep the interest rates high(today they are at 11-13%). I am hoping for interest rates @ 8% + for next 20 years.(8% will be the least).

2) Rupee is undervalued so companies which have taken FCCBs they will have to pay higher interest rates in the coming time. This has happened for the companies which took loans @4-5% in 2008, they are now paying 7-8% on the same loans due to the steep depreciation of the rupee against all the major currencies.

3) Here is an example of a power company-JSW ENERGY which is one of the biggest power producers of our country. Click-Page 16 (http://www.jsw.in/investor_zone/pdf/Energy/Analyst/Q3_FY_2011_12_Presentation.pdf) You can see that average cost of debt is 11%+

4) Now i want to give you an example of a highway company which is the second biggest player in highway industry in India. See this (http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-08-24/news/29922770_1_vd-mhaiskar-surat-dahisar-surat-project) interview from August 2011

on an averaged out basis, the overall debt portfolio for the company would rest at close to 11%.

5) That's my take that any highway project even if it is at floating basis cannot command overall borrowing cost below 8-9% for the next many many years.Even a 2% decline will mean 1000s of crores of savings for the infrastructure companies.

To know more about IRB infra-click here (http://www.irb.co.in/IRB-Presentation-Sept-2011.pdf)

Shenzhen was a village 30 years ago and today is the biggest manufacturer of electronic goods in the world. And most of this boom happened after 1990-1995, so an expressway in that area around 2000 was obviously a golden road as the industrial boom had increased the demand for freight manifolds.

And the same thing cannot happen in UP, this i can assure you.

I will comment on Shanxi post after reading the report.

^^^^

hmmm.

thanks for replying.

first i will share my views about finance cost:-



Are these 8-12% loans denominated in INR or EURO/USD?



And most of this boom happened after 1990-1995, so an expressway in that area around 2000 was obviously a golden road as the industrial boom had increased the demand for freight manifolds.


Can you provide some links from a reputable source where these claims can be verified?

I have been to China, FWIW - both its coastal boom towns, and heartland. My information and experience conflicts with the claims about Shenzhen above.

Highways, expressways and construction boom happened before the first industrial park was "founded" in Shenzhen. In 1990s, the remark was: Shenzhen builds one highrise a day and one boulevard every three days!! The first industrial park in Shenzhen was Shenzhen Hi-Tech Industrial Park, founded in late 1996 or early 1997. Early highways/expressways helped build later infrastructure/trains/expressways. You can not build efficient and competitive industry without expressway arteries, because cost and time needed for raw materials and finished product shipment is too much without freely flowing logistics - See the book written by a guy named Bhagwati on this, and admired by Chinese. Or read this World Bank report, it mentions Bhagwati:

http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2011/03/01/000158349_20110301083120/Rendered/PDF/WPS5583.pdf

Shenzhen and Uttar Pradesh aren't a good comparison. Shenzhen is coastal region, near Hong Kong - assembling and exporting electronics is easier. Uttar Pradesh is inland. Gujarat is more like Shenzhen.

I await any links of reputable sources you may provide where one can verify your theory: industry develop in successful economies before expressway infrastructure.

Expressway and agriculture-driven economic growth

We have lately been discussing the role of expressway in industrial growth of states such as Uttar Pradesh. But, lets look at agriculture that the state is already good at. Uttar Pradesh is India's top or second largest vegetable producing state, and fifth or sixth largest fruit producing state. Is there an opportunity here?

Uttar Pradesh and India in general, is a large, low cost agricultural producer. Still, its share in global agriculture exports is minuscule. India produces nearly 11 per cent of all the world’s vegetables and 15 per cent of all fruits, yet its share in global exports of vegetables is less than 2 per cent and in fruits less than 1 per cent.

Why? Because, Indian exporters face very high transportation costs, and the time it takes from Indian farm to international supermarket is so slow that spoilage is just too much.

It costs 2 to 3 times as much to transport 1 metric tone of vegetable or fruits from India to Europe, than it takes to transport the same from Chile, even though Chile is twice as far from Europe than India. And the time is 2 to 3 times slower.

In comparison to India, China which has recently grown to become currently the world's largest fruit and vegetable producer, is among the four top developing country exporters of fresh vegetables and processed fruits.

Since so much of Indian farmer's produce rots because of absent expressways and highways from fertile river valleys to its coast, the yields of farms in states like Uttar Pradesh remain much lower than countries such as China, Brazil, Chile, Thailand, etc. Indian farmer's tomato yields are 20+ times less per acre than farms elsewhere. But if you can not move it, ship it, sell it within India, export it outside India, at profitable prices, why would anyone want to innovate and improve farm yields.

Uttar Pradesh could serve Nepalese market, a country with seasonal shortages; the state could also serve southeast Asia through ports on its east, or Middle East/Europe from ports on India's west coast. This can not happen unless most vegetable and fruit farms of the state are in close proximity of efficient expressways (less than 50 kilometers, and average expressway traffic speed of 100 kilometers per hour).

For more, read:
http://www.agripricenepal.com/newsdoc/20090723132720.pdf
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INDIAEXTN/Resources/Reports-Publications/366387-1176736809704/overview.pdf

thanks for replying.

4) Now i want to give you an example of a highway company which is the second biggest player in highway industry in India. See this (http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-08-24/news/29922770_1_vd-mhaiskar-surat-dahisar-surat-project) interview from August 2011

To know more about IRB infra-click here (http://www.irb.co.in/IRB-Presentation-Sept-2011.pdf)


sscaddict - Thank you for link to IRB Infra. I did visit their website today and studied the latest annual report posted by them for 2010-2011 fiscal year. Here is the link:

http://www.irb.co.in/IRB-annual-report-10-11.pdf

To get their effective loan interest rate, we need to pull out two numbers from this report

i = total interest paid by the company over the year on its loan / total loan of the company

The numerator is on page 48 of the report, as Interest Paid (FY 2011). This equals INR 3,040,100,869.

The denominator is on page 46 of the report, as Loan Funds - sum of secured and unsecured loans, under sources of funds. The total is INR 46,255,324,155.

If we do the math, i = 3040100869 / 46255324155 = 6.57%

Why is this different than 11% claim in the interview? The reason is that net interest rate paid on debt portfolio, is not same as overall debt portfolio. The later is a term of art, similar to debt to equity, current ratio, quick ratio, etc.

Now, if someone is wondering how come they are paying less than 10%; please see the discussion from last week in this thread.

Last fact to keep in mind from the annual report of IRB: the company is and was profitable for the most recent 2 years, even with 2000 kilometers of highway finished, ready to build more, and expects continued profitability in the numerous projects it has bid.

philebus: Good discussion point by point issues looked into

I have a question earlier also mentioned

If lets assume everything goes in positive direction in UP elections and next govt push for environment clearence very hard and manage to get it in one year i.e by April 2013. This leaves only 4 years to implement the GE. I will reduce one year from above because during the last year of 5 year term no one would like to take tought decisions.

This means effectively we have 3 years to execute the project. This includes land acquisition and construction of expressway. If I assume efficient governance then also UP govt will need atleast 1 year to acquire the land and distribute compensation.

The question is how easy it is to raise 60 to 80,000cr from market in just 2 years? What factors are going to influence the ability to raise or not raise the funds?
Which is best financial model for jaypee to raise funds?

Expressway toll in China is massive!! It is around 0.5CNY per KM i.e around 4 rupees per KM...

someone here raised Q how 80,000crores can be recovered in 30yrs?? [80,000crores for 1000KM looks to be huge... per KM 80crores??]

Per year - 2666crores
Per day - 7.3crores
Per day per direction - 3.65crores

To recover 3.65crores per day per direction, how much KM needs to be covered per day per direction?? = 91lakh KM

Assuming average distance covered by a car or freight truck or any 4-wheeler as 500KM per day on this ganga expressway = 18264 4-wheeler.

20,000 vehicle using an 1000KM expressway in a state with 20crores population is highly possible in next 1 or 2 decade.

[[Presently UP has 12lakhs 4-wheeler on roads, this may triple or quadraple in next 20yrs (this is bound to happen if Mayawathi rules or BJP or INC rules)... where NHAI roads can accomodate these vehicles??]]

Average speed on expressway = 70KMPH, so 500KM can be covered in 7hrs by a freight truck for 2000 rupees toll... car can zoom with 90KMPH speed and cover 500KM in 5hrs 30min

Average speed on our present 4-lane NH = 55KMPH and this will be going down to 40KMPH in next 15years. Considereing 55KMPH, truck needs 9hrs paying present 500 rupees toll... This 9hrs will be growing to 12hrs in very near future and toll will rise from 500 rupees to 1000 rupees.

In next 10-15 years the existing national highways will get chocked as they are not access controlled road and moving freight or faster road-car/bus travel will become impossible.

Now developments like school, colleges, industries are coming along the 4-lane NH in everystate.. these roads will become like anyother city roads.

China built expressway not only for industries and freight movement. It built/ing massive 90,000KM national expressway grid for following reason..

1. To relieve congestion in old expressways though they were 4 or 6-lane
2. Faster movement of freight
3. Faster movement of people on expressway for intercity routes
4. To accomodate evergrowing vehicle population
5. To allow city like growth on existing old national highway.

[[citing shenzhen example and industrial revolution of shenzhen as reason for sucessful expressway in china, will get failed seeing the expressway grid in under developed(in their terms) province like guangxi, gansu, yunnan, anhui etc.,]]

Extend Ganga expressway to Bengal in one side and to Amristar and another side and name it as Ravi-Ganga-Hoogly expressway and announce it as national project!! This will act as alternate route for GT road in future...

One DFC, One 4-lane GT road, One fully electrified double slow rail line is not enough for the population live across Indo-gangetic plain. It needs more expressway like Ravi-Ganga-Hoogly, high speed rail line from Amritsar-Delhi-Kanpur-Lucknow-Varnasi-Patna-Howrah for future demand!!

Central Gvt and {SH} should come up with national expressway grid and national HSR grid instead of building or planning them in bits and pieces.:nuts:

The question is how easy it is to raise 60 to 80,000cr from market in just 2 years? What factors are going to influence the ability to raise or not raise the funds?



m_1973 - can you explain to me why your projections are 60,000 to now 80,000 crores?

That is 80 crores per kilometer. Or, if I am doing unit conversions right, it will be some $15 million per kilometer. It doesn't cost that much to build a kilometer of expressway even in the richest countries with average per capita income above $50,000 per year. Even near major expensive cities, here in the United States, we average about $5 million to build a 16 lane access controlled super expressway. Ganga expressway type projects, going through poor towns and villages, typically cost less than $1.5 million per kilometer.

In India, the average per capita income is less than 1/10th of rich nations, there is lot of talent, lot of available labor, raw materials costs are similar or lower per unit, equipment rental costs are lower, people are hard working and Jaypee often completes projects ahead of schedule. Why are you inflating the budget to $15 million per kilometer? Or why stop at $15 million, why aren't you inflating the budget to $500 million per kilometer - just for our mutual introspection?

Don't get me wrong. Reasonable projects can be financed. Unreasonable projects no.

If someone is going to say, but look at the cost of building Yamuna Expressway. If 165 kilometer cost x, wouldn't 1000 kilometer cost 1000x/165?

The answer is to ignore the media, its sensational stories. We must go find the truth, because truth sets us free. Where can we find truth; easy, lets get hold of Jaypee Infra's latest financial report

http://www.jaypeeinfratech.com/financialresults/2011-12/unaud-result-30-09-11.pdf

This November 2011 report reveals that the loan is INR 7083 crores to build the nearly complete expressway plus 25 million square meters of real estate. Since 25 million square meters must have some land value, the portion of loan needed to build the expressway must be much lower than $8.5 million per kilometer.

By the way, does anyone here know what the average price per square meter of land is in Uttar Pradesh? I hope it is no more expensive than in New York or San Francisco or London or Paris or Munich or etc.

The answer is to ignore the media, its sensational stories. We must go find the truth, because truth sets us free. Where can we find truth; easy, lets get hold of Jaypee Infra's latest financial report

http://www.jaypeeinfratech.com/financialresults/2011-12/unaud-result-30-09-11.pdf

--------------------------

According to the latest financial report from JP the total expenditure incurred till 30/9/11 on Yamuna Expressway is 11228cr for 165km. This means cost per km is 68cr. This cost includes the cost of land acquisition. The right of way for YE is 100m (6lane can be extended to 8lanes) and along the YE JP will develop service lanes and do the plantation etc.

Right of way for GE is 150m i.e 8 lanes and service lanes. JP has to acquire 15000ha for GE and 11000ha as land parcels. So even if we assume 70cr per km the cost of just building the expressway is 70,000cr and we have to add some cost for the 11000ha land acquisition. All this cost will be incurred in just first 3 years if the expressway has to be completed before next election in UP or within 5years.

According to the latest financial report from JP the total expenditure incurred till 30/9/11 on Yamuna Expressway is 11228cr for 165km.

Total expenditure may not be as useful, as total loan. Remember, Jaypee Infra is also reporting revenues, paying taxes, and is distributing dividends, etc, even before the Yamuna Expressway is open. Dividing the top line cumulative expenditure can be confusing and unpersuasive.

A better picture would emerge if you took the expenditure line item, subtracted out the revenues/interim earnings/ etc (because revenues always cover part of your expenses; and expenses in excess of revenues/fees/earnings/interim investments/etc is what you need to raise through equity or debt).

Take another example. Apple Inc. has billions dollars in total expenditure every year, but has negligible debt or loans on books. Apple does not need to raise financing every year to operate. When considering financing of infra projects, we are better off focusing on loans outstanding.

I did not quite understand your answer on land acquisition cost. Can you estimate what may be the land acquisition price per acre needed to build Ganga Expressway?

Expressway toll in China is massive!! It is around 0.5CNY per KM i.e around 4 rupees per KM...

someone here raised Q how 80,000crores can be recovered in 30yrs?? [80,000crores for 1000KM looks to be huge... per KM 80crores??]


bro Rs 80,000 crore + interest on the loans + cost of maintaining etc.

And again i want to add that you need to strengthen the rural roads if you want the agricultural goods to be transported without wastage, but i don't think that anyone will agree with my viewpoint. So i will not reply after this post. That's it.

i think that was not consolidated,for last fiscal they paid Rs 357 crore of interest according to this (http://www.irb.co.in/Audited-Consol-Standalone-March-11.pdf). Now may be that as of 31 march 2011 the loan amount was that you mentioned BUT in between they took some loans i mean the loan was less than the mentioned say in December 2011 and they tok some in march quarter but at the end it will show what you mentioned... i hope you understand. The interview is correct, the promoter has himself said it even mentioning the name of the projects.

And yes IRB is one the best(it has annuity and BOT portfolio) and i have always supported such a model rather than GE model.

bro Rs 80,000 crore + interest on the loans + cost of maintaining etc.

And again i want to add that you need to strengthen the rural roads if you want the agricultural goods to be transported without wastage, but i don't think that anyone will agree with my viewpoint. So i will not reply after this post. That's it.

---------------------

report on Uttar pradesh Netwrok
http://uppwd.net.in/Rpt/Report%20No.%203%20(Final).pdf

UP in 2006-07 had 127000km of roads (report page 3). I once or twice a year travel to different rural areas in UP and can confidently say that most of villages now are connected with decent quality roads.
UP PWD is also working with world bank to come up GIS based performance evaluation (on 16-20parameters) of roads.

Problem is the time it takes to reach from one point to another. Farrukhabad is one of districts on river Ganga I visit frequently takes me 5-6hr from Lucknow. With GE I can cover the distance in max of 2 to 3hrs. In Farrukhabad farmers send mangos to mostly Jaipur and it takes min of 24hrs to transport. For delhi also travel time is 8-10hrs. Once GE is ready from Farrukhabad it will take me just 3hr to reach Delhi and max of 3hr to Lucknow and will open up new opportunities for farmers. This will have major impact on health as in emergency you can reach both delhi and Lucknow in few hrs

State Highways will soon be given under PPP (19 roads identified)

https://udyogbandhu.com/topics.aspx?mid=U.P. State Highways Authority

In another thread I mentioned that UP PWD built avg of 2 flyover/bridge/ROB per week in last 2 years.

In all this only missing link is Expressways and that is what we need. Mobility in UP is not a problem issue is only of speed, volume and safe travel and that can be addressed only by Expressways.

Only issue for me on GE is how to raise 80,000cr in just three years to execute the project in 5years time.

http://upsha.in/

From above website map of network of roads in UP

http://upsha.in/map_cnwb_upsha_etc.pdf


current activity
http://upsha.in/notice_current.htm

bro Rs 80,000 crore + interest on the loans + cost of maintaining etc.

And again i want to add that you need to strengthen the rural roads if you want the agricultural goods to be transported without wastage, but i don't think that anyone will agree with my viewpoint. So i will not reply after this post. That's it.

i think that was not consolidated,for last fiscal they paid Rs 357 crore of interest according to this (http://www.irb.co.in/Audited-Consol-Standalone-March-11.pdf). Now may be that as of 31 march 2011 the loan amount was that you mentioned BUT in between they took some loans i mean the loan was less than the mentioned say in December 2011 and they tok some in march quarter but at the end it will show what you mentioned... i hope you understand. The interview is correct, the promoter has himself said it even mentioning the name of the projects.

And yes IRB is one the best(it has annuity and BOT portfolio) and i have always supported such a model rather than GE model.

sscaddict,

I am not questioning your points on finance/funding. But point was purely on "need of expressway" for India, few points on "why China built massive national expressway grid" and also "why UP need Ganga expressway".. I am not a financial expert to comment on your points of funding!!

3 years before national expressway body was formed, but they are in sleeping mode like anyother infra project in the country. Instead of building bits of pieces of private funded expressway like Taj, Ganga, CHEBANG expressway etc., CG should have a vision to build national expressway grid.

sscaddict - Thank you for link to IRB Infra. I did visit their website today and studied the latest annual report posted by them for 2010-2011 fiscal year. Here is the link:

http://www.irb.co.in/IRB-annual-report-10-11.pdf

To get their effective loan interest rate, we need to pull out two numbers from this report

i = total interest paid by the company over the year on its loan / total loan of the company

The numerator is on page 48 of the report, as Interest Paid (FY 2011). This equals INR 3,040,100,869.

The denominator is on page 46 of the report, as Loan Funds - sum of secured and unsecured loans, under sources of funds. The total is INR 46,255,324,155.

If we do the math, i = 3040100869 / 46255324155 = 6.57%

.

Just wanted to point out that this is not the effective interest rate. It is misleading because the denominator takes into account the entire debt irrespective of when it was taken, but the numerator accounts only for the interest paid in that year. Consider this simplistic example.

A company has Rs 200 of debt. Say, Rs 100 of that was taken over 1 year ago at 8% p.a. and the other Rs 100 was taken during the fiscal year of the annual report say 6 months into the year - so on the books only for 6 months. The interest rate on that is 10% p.a. So the P&L will show interest expenses as Rs 13 on the debt of Rs 200.

Rs 100 x 8%p.a. for 12 months = Rs 8
Rs 100 x 10%p.a. for 6 months = Rs 5

As per your calculation this would show an interest rate of 6.5% (Rs 13/ Rs 200). However the reality is that the interest rate on the debt book is 9%.

why people are doing maths here???

Just wanted to point out that this is not the effective interest rate. It is misleading because the denominator takes into account the entire debt irrespective of when it was taken, but the numerator accounts only for the interest paid in that year.

Well explained, achemsrazor. I agree.

We can use real data, instead of hypothetical one, to highlight the important point you make. Lets use IRB numbers of 2010, compare them with the 2011 numbers above. Just like 2011 numerator and denominator, here is what we get for 2010:

i_2010 = 2436822085 / 29152366486 = 8.36%

IRB's cost of capital dropped from 2010 to 2011. This is what one expects when a company becomes more experienced, reliable and appears to have a robust financial future ahead.

---

m_1973: I concur with your points. Uttar Pradesh is some 400 kilometers by 180 kilometers across. If the quality of access controlled expressway could be similar to expressways built in France or United States or recently built expressways in Brazil or China, one could cross the entire state from its Haryana border to Bihar border in 3 to 3.5 hours; and from Nepal to MP in 1.5. If it were like the autobahns of Germany, you could do it in 2 hour NW to SE, and 1 hour across.

How long does it take to get from Haryana to Bihar on national highways, now? how long is the drive from a fruit farming village near Uttarakhand/Nepal border to Allahabad or Agra?, assuming typical traffic.

Well explained, achemsrazor. I agree.

We can use real data, instead of hypothetical one, to highlight the important point you make. Lets use IRB numbers of 2010, compare them with the 2011 numbers above. Just like 2011 numerator and denominator, here is what we get for 2010:

i_2010 = 2436822085 / 29152366486 = 8.36%

IRB's cost of capital dropped from 2010 to 2011. This is what one expects when a company becomes more experienced, reliable and appears to have a robust financial future ahead.


lol

there cannot be a single company in India which had its cost of capital drop from 2010 to 2011 because RBI increased repo rates 13 times in a single year, raising interest rates from 9% to 12-13% for most of the banks, seriously you have not understood what i and achemsrazor are trying to say.

there cannot be a single company in India which had its cost of capital drop from 2010 to 2011 because RBI increased repo rates 13 times in a single year, raising interest rates from 9% to 12-13% for most of the banks.

Is that an assumed theory or a verified theory?

Show us where we can verify the 12-13% interest rates you allege, the benchmark rates relevant to IRB-infra rates?

See the rate charts here. Each shows values very different than your claims:
http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/RSPOYLD:IND/chart
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/interest-rate
http://www.kshitij.com/fundamentals/funcharts/inrbi.shtml

I humbly await, once again, any links you may provide that support your assumed theory.

OMG!!!!!! i am talking about INTEREST RATES, not repo rate or reverse repo rate. Seriously man you don't know about the prevailing interest rates in India and you are talking about project financing. Come to India, enter any bank and ask about the interest rate on any loan whether it is a home,car,education,infra loan etc.

For your information any loan given by a bank is not the rate at which the central bank lends to it, at least in India.

raising interest rates from 9% to 12-13% for most of the banks.

Come to India, enter any bank and ask about the interest rate on any loan whether it is a home,car,education,infra loan etc.


Any links to verify your assumed theory that

the interest rate on loans to large Indian companies such as IRB Infra is same as home/car/etc loan rates in India?

Check the effective interest rate in any 2011 annual financial report of large, profitable publicly-traded Indian company. You will find that your assumed theory is not consistent with reality.

While sscaddict's posts are getting a bit tiring for its personal attacks, I humbly submit some more verifiable evidence for anyone interested in corporate/infra loan financing rates in India.

IIFCL financed company bonds at 8.15 per cent interest compounded annually and 15-year bond with 8.30 per cent about 10 months ago. Please see:

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-02-03/news/28433254_1_iifcl-chairman-infrastructure-bonds-lakh-deduction

Here is a list of some 25 loan financing deals by various infra companies in India, for late 2011, that is few months ago.

All these loan deals have a maturity of 10-15 years, with interest rates between 8 to 9%. Makes it difficult to understand the 12-13% corporate infra rate, as claimed by sscaddict, doesn't it?

http://www.onemint.com/2011/09/22/80ccf-infrastructure-bonds-calendar-2011/

Most of these infra finance companies are rated AA/AAA and some even backed by an implicit GOI guarantee (PFC, REC). If they themselves have to pay a coupon of 9% for ten year money, do you think they will be underwriting risky project loans at a negative spread?

Most of these infra finance companies are rated AA/AAA and some even backed by an implicit GOI guarantee (PFC, REC). If they themselves have to pay a coupon of 9% for ten year money, do you think they will be underwriting risky project loans at a negative spread?

Exactly.

why people are doing maths here???

Just like that.

Exactly.

my comment was more in support of SSCaddict's contention that since the cost of long-term money for banks/infra finance companies themselves is hovering around 9%, it is perfectly reasonable to expect that their lending rates on term loans to the infra sector will be in the region of 11-13%, depending on the risk profile of individual projects. Here is a report by Edelweiss on Jaypee Infra dated April 2011. In a report otherwise gushing with positives, the table on page 12 pegs the average cost of their debt of 7,200 crores at 11.7%. Interest rates have further hardened since then and depending on the structure and reset clauses of each loan agreement, their cost of borrowing would have gone up.

http://www.edelweiss.in/IEReport/common/content/reports/current/sector_&_company/real_estate/jaypee_infratech/2011/4/4/442011191428/Jaypee_Infratech_-_initiating_coverage-Apr-11-EDEL.pdf
Table 8: Lenders’ consortium

Lender Instrument Amount (INR mn) Interest rate (%)
ICICI Bank Term Loan 30,000 11.0
Dena Bank Term Loan 2,000 12.5
Punjab National Bank Term Loan 10,000 12.5
State Bank of Patiala Term Loan 2,000 12.5
Union Bank Term Loan 3,250 12.5
Axis Bank Limited Term Loan 2,500 12.5
Corporation Bank Term Loan 3,000 12.5
Oriental Bank of Comm. Term Loan 1,800 12.5
State Bank of Hyderabad Term Loan 1,600 12.5
Punjab & Sind Bank Term Loan 1,600 12.5
SREI Infrastructure Term Loan 1,000 12.5
IIFCL Term Loan 5,250 12.5
UCO Bank Term Loan 3,000 12.5
Axis Bank Limited NCD 5,000 10.0
Average cost of debt 72,000 11.7

Since you are active in global project finance and have extensive experience in asia, why don't you simply call up a few colleagues in mumbai handling loan syndication at some top i-banks and get first-hand and authoritative data on the rates at which financial closure for recent road projects has been made? It would certainly be easier and more dependable than wasting time in unraveling the mysteries contained in annual reports of companies like IRB.

i think my friend philebus don't know that raising money from bond markets & from banks is something different. When did you last time saw 13% on AAA bonds? I don't remember. Just see the L&T hyderabad metro rail project-Rs 11,000 crore + loan. It is around 11%. The overall financing rates for infra projects have been 10% + and even 12%. That is for Yamuna Expressway, For power plants, recent road projects, Metro projects of Mumbai by Rel Infra and Hyderabad L&T, for Bharti and Idea 2G infra etc.

You don't have any knowledge about India, you may have about china & other developed countries, but surely not about India.

Basi karo yaar....

Who are you to decide when a discussion should end?

This discussion has been quite infomative so far.