Berlin (capacity 76,000)

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/6787/36812785kc.jpg

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/3444/36277355dg.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/berlin/images/luft_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/berlin/images/innen_22.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/berlin/images/innen_13.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/berlin/images/sonstige_3.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/berlin/images/innen_27.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/aussen_11.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/eroeffnung_08.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-25.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-32.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-06_01.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-23.jpg

http://www.berliner-fussball.de/wdeutsch/uploadimages/2005mai28_eng_df43_1024x768_cje_b9.jpg

Munich (66,000)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/muenchen/images/luft_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/muenchen/images/aussen_04.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/muenchen/images/innen_09.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/muenchen/images/innen_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/muenchen/images/innen_06.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/muenchen/images/innen_20.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/muenchen/images/aussen_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/muenchen/images/aussen_06.jpg

Dortmund (66,000)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/dortmund/images/luft_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/dortmund/images/aussen_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/dortmund/images/innen_18.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/dortmund/images/innen_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/dortmund/images/atmo_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/dortmund/images/atmo_12.jpg



Stuttgart (60,000)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/stuttgart/images/aussen_1.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/stuttgart/images/tribuenen_29.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/stuttgart/images/luft_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/stuttgart/images/tribuenen_6.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/stuttgart/images/tribuenen_1.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/stuttgart/images/tribuenen_4.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/stuttgart/images/aussen_4.jpg


Gelsenkirchen (52,000)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/kompakt_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/kompakt_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/sued_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/haupt_08.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/haupt_06.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/gegen_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/gegen_08.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/aussen_31.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/aussen_33.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/aussen_36.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/aussen_39.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/sonstige_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/sonstige_04.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/luft_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/luft_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_schalke_04/images/luft_05.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04arena12.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04arena22.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04nordkurve2.jpg


Hamburg (50,000)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/luft_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/luft_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/kompakt_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/kompakt_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/images/news/hamburg_28_12_2005_1.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/images/news/hamburg_23_06_2005_1.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/images/news/hamburg_24_10_2005_1.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/kompakt_04.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/aussen_06.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/aussen_04.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/west_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/west_07.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/nord_01.jpg


Frankfurt (48,500)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/frankfurt/images/luft_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/frankfurt/images/innen_25.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/frankfurt/images/aussen_3.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/frankfurt/images/innen_21.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/frankfurt/images/innen_20.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/frankfurt/images/aussen_5.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/frankfurt/images/atmo_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/frankfurt/images/atmo_05.jpg


Kaiserslautern (48,000)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/fritz_walter_stadion/modell/100.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/fritz_walter_stadion/modell/120.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/kaiserslautern/images/innen_22.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/kaiserslautern/images/aussen_08.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/kaiserslautern/images/luft_04.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album197/7uf_1.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album197/DSCF0099.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album197/DSCF0101.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album197/DSCF0098.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album193/IMG_1041.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album193/IMG_1061.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album193/IMG_1076.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album193/IMG_1255.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album193/IMG_1256.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album181/IMG_0806.sized.jpg


Cologne (46,134)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/west_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/nord_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/west_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/aussen_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/aussen_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/sonstige_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/aussen_06.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/sonstige_14.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/sonstige_20.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/sonstige_21.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/sonstige_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/luft_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/images/luft_04.jpg


Nuremberg (45,500)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/aussen_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/aussen_04.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/blick_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/blick_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/blick_04.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/blick_08.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/blick_11.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/blick_12.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/sonstige_10.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/sonstige_12.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/luft_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_nuernberg/images/luft_04.jpg


Hanover (45,000)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/luft_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/luft_04.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/innen_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/innen_12.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/innen_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/innen_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/aussen_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/aussen_04.jpg


Leipzig (44,000)

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/aussen_8.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/innen_33.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/luft_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/innen_27.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/innen_28.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/innen_23.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/aussen_1.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/aussen_11.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/aussen_4.jpg

berlin deffo...after the roof is done this place will be like a big couldron of noise..cannot wait for WC 2006 well done Germany

im really pissed off for all the world cup finals are held in fucken athletic stadiums. the has not been a single real footbal stadium since the 80s world cups (i dont like to call stade de france and the thing in tokyo football stadiums).

therefore berlin sucks. munich is great. frankfurt, cologne and hamburg are second.
the others are quite good, except for the athletic stadiums. they just suck. the fifa should forbid them.

@ il fenomeno

Dann hätte Deutschland aber ein 70.000+ Stadion zur WC weniger und kein Spiel mehr in der Hauptstadt.

Most of the them are very good 'football' stadiums. (bar the ones with the tracks)

Munich is the best..... but I do like Leipzig.

Check out these new pics from the Allianz Arena

The roof:

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/bildschirmbilder/dachkonstruktion/2.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/bildschirmbilder/1024x768/baustelle_080604/5.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/bildschirmbilder/1024x768/baustelle_080604/8.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/bildschirmbilder/1024x768/baustelle_080604/13.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/bildschirmbilder/1024x768/baustelle_080604/9.jpg

Hanover is coming along nicely as well:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Hannover/Bau-Fotos/0704/su_230704_06.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Hannover/Bau-Fotos/0704/su_230704_08.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Hannover/Bau-Fotos/0704/su_230704_07.jpg

amen

Frankfurt

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Frankfurt/Bau-Fotos/13082004/FILE_0000A2D5.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Frankfurt/Bau-Fotos/13082004/FILE_00009799.jpg


Hanover

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Hannover/Bau-Fotos/13082004/DSCN2936.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Hannover/Bau-Fotos/13082004/DSCN2949.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Frankfurt/Bau-Fotos/150804/150804_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Frankfurt/Bau-Fotos/150804/150804_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Frankfurt/Bau-Fotos/150804/150804_01.jpg

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2004/2004-08-18/L1050773.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2004/2004-08-18/L1050825.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2004/2004-08-18/L1050774.JPG

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/panorama360_050404/panorama360_060804/2.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/panorama360_050404/panorama360_060804/6.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/panorama360_050404/panorama360_060804/10.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/bildschirmbilder/1024x768/baustelle_150804/4.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/bildschirmbilder/1024x768/baustelle_150804/14.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/bildschirmbilder/1024x768/baustelle_150804/12.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/bildschirmbilder/1024x768/baustelle_150804/9.jpg

Westfalenstadion before extensions began

http://www.stadion-live.de/westfalenstadion/images/DACHBAU.JPG

http://www.stadion-live.de/westfalenstadion/images/Postkarte.JPG

http://www.stadion-live.de/ausbau/ausbau1/images/BILD7.JPE

http://www.stadion-live.de/ausbau/ausbau1/images/BILD1.JPE

More Hanover pics:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Hannover/Bau-Fotos/310804/uh_310804_16.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Hannover/Bau-Fotos/310804/uh_310804_17.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Hannover/Bau-Fotos/310804/uh_310804_09.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionneubau/Deutschland/Hannover/Bau-Fotos/310804/uh_310804_01.jpg

Berlin

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionguides/1-Bundesliga/Hertha/Stadionfotos/Olympia_Juli2004/innen/Olympia_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionguides/1-Bundesliga/Hertha/Stadionfotos/Olympia_Juli2004/innen/Olympia_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionguides/1-Bundesliga/Hertha/Stadionfotos/Olympia_Juli2004/innen/Olympia_14.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionguides/1-Bundesliga/Hertha/Stadionfotos/Olympia_Juli2004/innen/Olympia_11.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/Stadionwelt-Stadien-Arenen/Stadionguides/1-Bundesliga/Hertha/Stadionfotos/Olympia_Juli2004/innen/Olympia_23.jpg


Munich

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/lichttests_300804/16.jpg

http://www.allianz-arena.de/imperia/md/images/allianzarena2003/bildergalerien/lichttests_300804/7.jpg

I am a big fan of the Berlin stadium, but I believe the blue track is jarring, and does not go with the rest of the stadium. The roof is incredible though.

Maybe you have to put it different, I don't like them because the Arena has one. ;)
But classic stands are part of clubculture.

Hamburg, the other ones are extremely repulsive. :(

Borussia Park looks pretty cheap IMO

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-02-11/L1080848.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-02-11/L1080860.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-02-11/L1080867.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-02-11/L1080908.JPG

More Frankfurt

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050220/100.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050204/100.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050204/160.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050204/120.jpg

i'd say munich followed by berlin. wow! they're really awesome structures. wish we have one or two of those, but football is not really popular in the philippines. we're more of a basketball country.

Screens installed >>>

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/images/news/muenchen_02_03_2005_1.jpg

It's flying over the stadium (42,5 meters above the field, Displays 96,16 m² , 16:9 mode) >>>

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/images/news/muenchen_02_03_2005_3.jpg

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-03-10/L1090085.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-03-10/L1090118.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-03-10/L1090123.JPG

Cologne at night

http://www.stadion-koeln.de/Guide_1FC_Koeln/News/23092004/220904_01.jpg

http://www.stadion-koeln.de/Guide_1FC_Koeln/News/23092004/220904_00.jpg

http://www.stadion-koeln.de/Guide_1FC_Koeln/News/23092004/220904_03.jpg

http://www.stadion-koeln.de/Guide_1FC_Koeln/News/23092004/220904_04.jpg

http://www.stadion-koeln.de/Guide_1FC_Koeln/News/23092004/220904_05.jpg

There are some good stadiums. Out of the lot the Munich stadium stands out as the best.It should be the World Cup Final venue. Instead the final is going to be held in a friggin athletics stadium.Ridiculous in this day and age.Cologne deserves a thumbs up aswell.It looks like it has been influenced by Bauhaus.

Nuremberg's renovated Frankenstadion:

http://www.ksta.de/ks/images/mdsBild/1112443023160l.jpg

http://www.total-beglubbt.de/fotos/saison0405/30-fcn-bmg/0001.jpg

http://www.total-beglubbt.de/fotos/saison0405/30-fcn-bmg/0032.jpg

http://www.total-beglubbt.de/fotos/saison0405/30-fcn-bmg/0026.jpg

http://www.sportal.de/zoom/fussball/wm2006/images/franken2gross.jpg

Hanover:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/foto_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/foto_07.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/foto_17.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/foto_14.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/bild_25.jpg

Frankfurt and its roof

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050404/100.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050404/130.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050404/140.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050404/160.jpg

So, what does everybody think of Frankfurt's roof?

i adore it./.its so roman.

Hanovers stadium is the best!

Nah I Changed my mind....the AOL arena is the best!

that's how Frankfurts Waldstadion may look like after Commerzbank bought the rights of the stadium's name

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/images/news/frankfurt_10_05_2005_1.jpg

Munich-Allianz Arena
http://www.ib-opatz.de/xtra/exkarlibua/exkarl_img/preop/w/050519w-HPIM5909.JPG
http://www.ib-opatz.de/xtra/exkarlibua/exkarl_img/preop/w/050519w-HPIM5917.JPG
stadionwelt:http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/index.php?template=neubau&umbau_id=9&ordner=20050519
http://scifi.pages.at/mikiberenyi/album2/P1020565.JPG

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050520/120.jpg

Munich, best design in my opinion

Some more aerial pics of Frankfurt

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050520/110.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050520/140.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/neues_waldstadion/20050520/150.jpg

i like the architecture of the munich stadium!

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/downloads/innenraum05panorama1024.jpg

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/downloads/WaldstadionFebruar2005-800x600.jpg

Frankfurt [June 13th]
http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-06-13/L1100119.JPG

Cologne [June]
http://www.stadion-koeln.de/images/news/umbau_030605/030605_01.jpg

Frankfurt looks great,but I have the feeling that the video-cube is installed far too low.

http://www.faz.net/imagecache/%7B0C0897E9-FEAC-464C-8C44-A461BA86AE6E%7Dpicture.jpeghttp://www.faz.net/imagecache/%7BFFCD72A8-7E8B-42AA-AC90-5CC9E0F82D65%7Dpicture.jpeg
http://www.faz.net/imagecache/%7B503ACD18-47E9-4F76-AE28-AD35845835EA%7Dpicture.jpeg

@ checker: why should it be too low? everyboy can see the pitch and the cube

5 Stadiums for the Confederations-Cup which starts tomorrow

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,PB64-SUQ9MTA0ODAmbnI9MQ_3_3,00.html

dortmund actually fits around 83,000 not 66,000

they said the video cube in frankfurt is as high as the fifa standarts require and as high as in the arena auf schalke for example. then again it really looks low

dortmund actually fits around 83,000 not 66,000

Official Fifa capacity is about 66,000.
There is no standing area during the WC, no places with obstructed view are being sold, safety purposes... etc.

It looks to be high enough imo

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-06-13/L1100113.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-06-13/L1100094.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-06-13/L1100142.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-06-13/L1100154.JPG

http://www.neues-waldstadion.de/de/galerie/gal/Umbaudokumentation/2005/2005-06-13/L1100087.JPG

Leipzig
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,480633,00.jpg
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,480639,00.jpg

Koeln
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,478003,00.jpg

Hannover
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,476982,00.jpg

Nürnberg
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,480647,00.jpg

Frankfurt
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,477044,00.jpg

WOW, germany must help south africa for 2010

WOW, germany must help south africa for 2010

hey mo, i've seen the stadium models for 2010.
if those are going to look only half as good in reality as they do on the computer screen; you guys will have the best stadiums ever for a world cup.

I'm really not that impressed by the South African designs. They're nice but rather generic.

I'm really not that impressed by the South African designs. They're nice but rather generic.

They don't really stand out much to me either(although from what Mo's posted in the past I wouldnt be supprized to see a few changes) but they do look to have the capacity and decent facilities, that should always be the first priority IMHO. Just look at France 98, great main stadium but then only 1 not so great 50K plus stadium with almost half of the rest not even reaching 40k.

im really pissed off for all the world cup finals are held in fucken athletic stadiums. the has not been a single real footbal stadium since the 80s world cups (i dont like to call stade de france and the thing in tokyo football stadiums).

therefore berlin sucks. munich is great. frankfurt, cologne and hamburg are second.
the others are quite good, except for the athletic stadiums. they just suck. the fifa should forbid them.

I agree. I hate athletic stadiums. They are renovating/building a new stadium in Zagreb (Dinamo Zagreb and National Team will play on it) and though they at first wanted to remove the athletic track, now they decided they are going to keep it! Damn!

I only disagree on the Stade de France - I like it a lot!

German stadiums - Gelsenkirchen, Koln, Hamburg, Munchen, Frankfurt, Leipzig and Dortmund are great

http://www.rhein-main-fussball.de/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/Stadien/Frankfurt/Waldstadion/IMG_1563.JPG

http://www.rhein-main-fussball.de/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/Stadien/Frankfurt/Waldstadion/IMG_1531.JPG

http://www.rhein-main-fussball.de/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/Stadien/Frankfurt/Waldstadion/IMG_1571.JPG

Munich one looks :cool: its unusual.. and i like it when its lit up durin night time..

Nice hole in the roof in Frankfurt
:hahaha: :rofl:

A brand new stadium and a big hole in roof, some engineer must be very embaresed about that. :rofl:

actually it wasnt a hole but an emergency valve, that opened because the gutters couldnt handle the water anymore.

Munich stadium is one of the best in the world.

actually it wasnt a hole but an emergency valve, that opened because the gutters couldnt handle the water anymore.

What a stupid way to construct a roof, if the water can't slow away by it self, then whats the point with a retractable roof. I have been in a stadium with retractable when there was a snow storm outside, but nothing came in.

Well, it's a completely new kind of roof construction for it consists of a special kind of fabric basically. Just like a giant canopy top. Thus there weren't many chances to test it, especially under such extreme conditions. Even Frankfurt Airport had to be closed down for about an hour due to the bad weather conditions there.

Although the roof in Frankfurt didn't worked out that good...

Without the roof they wouldn't have been able to play the Confed-Cup-Final ! The weather-conditions were just to extreme !

AllianzArena in the media:

Dazzling arena
Munich's new Allianz Arena, created by Swiss architects Jacques Herzog and Pierre de Meuron for the 2006 World Cup, has been described as "the coolest football stadium in the world."
SATURDAY 2030HKT, 1730CET, 0730 & 1130ET
SUNDAY 1430HKT, 0930 & 2030CET, 1430ET

more on cnn.com
link to cnn - design 360 (http://www.cnn.com/CNNI/Programs/design360/index.html)

an athletics track for a world cup final is just perfect..

Kaiserlautern would be in my top half dozen 2006 WC grounds along with Munich, Berlin, Dortmund, Gelsenkirchen and Frankfurt.

If were talking prem grounds then I'd personally say that the two best redevolped old stadiums are Old Trafford and Villa Park.

Kaiserslautern per se is an excellent example for an intelligent, sound redevelopment of an existing structure under very difficult circumstances (original building, size of expansion, geological characteristics of the site).
However, in the end way too much money has been spent and the size of the ground is well out of proportion for Kaiserslautern's regular operation.

Lower part should be standing ground


are you sure? as far as I know Kaiserslautern will be a full-seater in the Bundesliga.

On Stadionwelt it still says:

Capacity: 40.721

Seats: 27.982
Standing: 12.739

Have you seen Bundesliga average attendances!!! It's crazy - 40000 average per game, absolutely massive!! No country can get close to that!!



yes its great to see that the bundesliga managed to continually break its attendances records over the last 7 years or so.
But I think this year will be the last record breaking season.
A thing that helps to get these attendances is certainly the fact that many new stadiums have been built over the last years, and also that the prices for a ticket are very low compared to, lets say the premier league.

I recently watched the premier league and I was a bit shocked that, at some games the stadium wasnt even half full.
I also heard from the british media that the attendances are very low at the moment.
I think that this really has to do with the high prices (a premier league ticket costs around 3 times as much as a bundesliga ticket!!)
another reason is also that some clubs (chelsea,ManU) appear to be unbeatable for smaller clubs which takes a lot of the excitement connected with the game.

I think they should really take steps to lower the prices and maybe consider to bring back standing areas and go back to allow flags and other stuff in the stadiums again.also they shouldnt let the games start at ridiculous times just to achieve better viewing figures in asia.It kills the fanbases.

the premier league is a fantastic league and it really is a shame when the spectator figures drop.
some officials have to realize that the stadium audience is the most important thing to the game.

On Stadionwelt it still says:

Capacity: 40.721

Seats: 27.982
Standing: 12.739

that must be the old figures for the start of the season.
The new capacity should be 48.500 seats.

On Stadionwelt it still says:

Capacity: 40.721

Seats: 27.982
Standing: 12.739

Surely thats the current capacity? The stadium is going to hold 40,000+ as an all seater during the world cup afterall so with stadining room you'd expect it to be larger.

here:

http://www.fck.de/stadion/index.php

"Nach Abschluss der Umbau-Arbeiten Kapazität von 48.500 Sitzplätzen."

quite interesting that Kaiserslautern will have the same capacity as Frankfurt.

Strange. I doubt FCK-Fans would accept that.

Anyway, some other pics

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album197/7uf_1.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album197/DSCF0099.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album197/DSCF0101.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album197/DSCF0098.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album193/IMG_1041.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album193/IMG_1061.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album193/IMG_1076.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album193/IMG_1255.sized.jpg

Certainly looks like an all-seater in that pic

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album193/IMG_1256.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album181/IMG_0806.sized.jpg

This is what it used to look like:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_kaiserslautern/images/alt_06.jpg

http://www.fussballportal.de/bundesliga/stadien/imago01055771m.jpg

http://www.globalstadia.com/campo_kaiserlautern.jpg

Looks old...not is.


IMO St James in better, so is Old Trafford, The Emirates*, The Reebok arena, the City of Manchester Stadium, the Riverside Stadium, The Stadium of Light and maybe even Stamford Bridge.

But other than those 8...Kaiserslautern is better than any other stadium in the prem.



*UC.


Riverside and The NE stade da luz are very plastic. Riverside in particular. I like the Reebok, fantastic little ground. . . and the Council House is of course a quality stadium, if better from the outside. Reckon OT, St James, Reebok and CoM are better than Kaiserslauterns, but I do like this ground. Has character about it.

This is what it used to look like:



http://www.fussballportal.de/bundesliga/stadien/imago01055771m.jpg




Reminds me of Anfield, does that.

these old pics here perfectly show the transformation of the ground:

In the left front you can see the old height of the stand,and in the far background is the height to which all stands have been raised to by now.

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_kaiserslautern/images/aussen_17.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_kaiserslautern/images/aussen_12.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_kaiserslautern/images/aussen_18.jpg


now:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_kaiserslautern/images/aussen_32.jpg

Some nice pics from the Veltins-arena which I just found:

FC Schalke 04 vs. 1.FC Kaiserslautern

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album24/DSC00884.jpg

the team busses get a lot of attention ;)

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album24/DSC00885.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album24/DSC00911.sized.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album24/DSC00913.jpg

Commercialism...

http://www.veltins-arena.de/media/news_051127_kraene.jpg

http://www.veltins-arena.de/media/news_051127_montage.jpg

http://www.veltins-arena.de/media/news_051127_leuchten.jpg

yes its great to see that the bundesliga managed to continually break its attendances records over the last 7 years or so.
But I think this year will be the last record breaking season.
A thing that helps to get these attendances is certainly the fact that many new stadiums have been built over the last years, and also that the prices for a ticket are very low compared to, lets say the premier league.

I recently watched the premier league and I was a bit shocked that, at some games the stadium wasnt even half full.
I also heard from the british media that the attendances are very low at the moment.
I think that this really has to do with the high prices (a premier league ticket costs around 3 times as much as a bundesliga ticket!!)
another reason is also that some clubs (chelsea,ManU) appear to be unbeatable for smaller clubs which takes a lot of the excitement connected with the game.

I think they should really take steps to lower the prices and maybe consider to bring back standing areas and go back to allow flags and other stuff in the stadiums again.also they shouldnt let the games start at ridiculous times just to achieve better viewing figures in asia.It kills the fanbases.

the premier league is a fantastic league and it really is a shame when the spectator figures drop.
some officials have to realize that the stadium audience is the most important thing to the game.


Chelsea are unbeatable to everybody in the Premiership. The league was decided before a ball was kicked, as is next season. I can guarantee you Chelsea will win the 2006/2007 league. The Premiership has turned into a really boring league with games rarely sold out.

Chelsea are unbeatable to everybody in the Premiership. The league was decided before a ball was kicked, as is next season. I can guarantee you Chelsea will win the 2006/2007 league. The Premiership has turned into a really boring league with games rarely sold out.

Thats true.
I think its dangerous if a billionaire comes along and financially outperforms everybody just for the fun of it.
a club should have a decent finance plan and not just somebody who poures in millions and millions of pounds.
Its not healthy for the rest of the league imo.

There seems to be some confusion as to whether or not the ground will have standing. Even this good site below is unsure. If you look at the bottom of the page you can see question marks over the standing numbers???

I think it will have some kind of standing area.

http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/GER.html

There seems to be some confusion as to whether or not the ground will have standing. Even this good site below is unsure. If you look at the bottom of the page you can see question marks over the standing numbers???

I think it will have some kind of standing area.


i dont think so.
Im pretty sure that it will be a full seater.
I havent seen any standing areas during Bundesliga games this season

yes its great to see that the bundesliga managed to continually break its attendances records over the last 7 years or so.
But I think this year will be the last record breaking season.
A thing that helps to get these attendances is certainly the fact that many new stadiums have been built over the last years, and also that the prices for a ticket are very low compared to, lets say the premier league.

I recently watched the premier league and I was a bit shocked that, at some games the stadium wasnt even half full.
I also heard from the british media that the attendances are very low at the moment.
I think that this really has to do with the high prices (a premier league ticket costs around 3 times as much as a bundesliga ticket!!)
another reason is also that some clubs (chelsea,ManU) appear to be unbeatable for smaller clubs which takes a lot of the excitement connected with the game.

I think they should really take steps to lower the prices and maybe consider to bring back standing areas and go back to allow flags and other stuff in the stadiums again.also they shouldnt let the games start at ridiculous times just to achieve better viewing figures in asia.It kills the fanbases.

the premier league is a fantastic league and it really is a shame when the spectator figures drop.
some officials have to realize that the stadium audience is the most important thing to the game.

I'd guess that in terms of total capacity usage the prem is actually much higher than the Bundesliga, really only Blackburn have a stadium thats often half empty. The main cause of the slight drop in attendances in the last couple of years is I'd guess down to the clubs who play in the league, most obviously that Leeds(40,000 seat stadium) have been religated and their place taken by the likes of Wigan(25,000 seat stadium). That said I agree they should bring back some kind of standing room offering lower prices and better capacities/atmosphere now that holiganism has been largely stamped out.

That looks like seats that can also be used as a standing terrace -

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/1_fc_kaiserslautern/images/ost_06.jpg

similar to the type seen in Hannover -

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/innen_10.jpg

I'd guess that in terms of total capacity usage the prem is actually much higher than the Bundesliga, really only Blackburn have a stadium thats often half empty. The main cause of the slight drop in attendances in the last couple of years is I'd guess down to the clubs who play in the league, most obviously that Leeds(40,000 seat stadium) have been religated and their place taken by the likes of Wigan(25,000 seat stadium). That said I agree they should bring back some kind of standing room offering lower prices and better capacities/atmosphere now that holiganism has been largely stamped out.

Simply not true. Sunderland is on average 14000 short of capacity, Aston Villa 8000 short, Man City and Middlesbrough both 6000 short, Everton 4000 short, Blackburn 10000 short, etc.

You might argue that if Man United had a bigger stadium then this would help averages, but Bayern Munich could argue the same as well. Bayern could have easily have had 80000 sellouts for every game if the Allianz Arena was bigger.

Why can't English people never admit when somebody is better than them at something. It's a really annoying English habit that you constantly see on these forums. Germany has by far the biggest attendances, accept it, live with it and face the facts.

I'd guess that in terms of total capacity usage the prem is actually much higher than the Bundesliga, really only Blackburn have a stadium thats often half empty.

The average attendancy is higher in the Bundesliga.

The overall spectator figures for the whole season have been slightly bigger in the premier league than for the Bundesliga.it differed only by a 3 or 4 thousand as afr as I know,whixh is basically no difference at all.
the reason for that is,that the premier league features 20 teams whereas the Bundesliga only features 18.
That means there is always one more game being played in the premiership on every gameday compared to the bundesliga.

but even with the overall viewing figures the Bundesliga will overtake the Premierleague this season.
Many big stadiums are now featured in the Bundesliga whereas last season there werent the likes of Frankfurt,Cologne or Nuremburg.
also many new stadiums have been introduced this year (allianz arena) which led to an increase in ticket sales.

Allianz Arena should of been made bigger.What they should do is after the Word Cup, convert 5000 seats behind each goal into standing areas. You would then have 10000 standing instead of 5000 sitting behind each goal. You would still have 66000 for European games as the standing areas can be converted to seats, but for Bundesliga games you would have 76000.

I think the city council made them have such a low capacity (because of the infrastructure around it). It'll have a capacity of 70,000 soon.

I think the city council made them have such a low capacity (because of the infrastructure around it). It'll have a capacity of 70,000 soon.

Good news. They could then use my plan and have a capacity of 80000.

You might argue that if Man United had a bigger stadium then this would help averages, but Bayern Munich could argue the same as well. Bayern could have easily have had 80000 sellouts for every game if the Allianz Arena was bigger.
.


For the odd game perhaps. But they're behind Schalke and Dortmund in terms of average attendance. I think Bayern average around 50-55k. Well below their capacity. I reckon we'll average 76K next season. Anyway, if had my way, ticket prices would be a lot cheaper, which would allow younger people to afford the thus bigger stadiums and bigger crowds. Doubt it will happen though.

Bundesliga has higher average attendance.

This is a very informative site:

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

and btw every bayern game in the allianz arena has been sold out so far...

@ManchesterISwonderful

WRONG!

All Bayern games are or will be totally sold out this season. So Bayern has and will have a n average attandance of 66.000 (100%) this seaon. Bayern ist No. 2 in Germany behind Dortmund(~75K - 93%) and in front of schalke (~61K - 100%)).

All Bayern Bundesliga games untill the end of the season are allready sold out.

For the odd game perhaps. But they're behind Schalke and Dortmund in terms of average attendance. I think Bayern average around 50-55k. Well below their capacity. I reckon we'll average 76K next season. Anyway, if had my way, ticket prices would be a lot cheaper, which would allow younger people to afford the thus bigger stadiums and bigger crowds. Doubt it will happen though.

I think every single Bayern game has been a sellout this season.

Top Ten:

1 BV 09 Borussia Dortmund 77.294 - 3,0% 83.000
2 FC Schalke 04 61.341 0,3% 61.524
3 FC Bayern München 53.294 - 3,9% 63.000
4 VfL Borussia Mönchengladbach 49.183 52,4% 53.466
5 Hamburger SV 48.825 1,1% 55.800
6 Hertha BSC Berlin 48.486 18,5% 74.500
7 VfB Stuttgart 1893 41.367 - 4,4% 49.471
8 SV Werder Bremen 39.853 6,3% 42.109
9 Hannoverscher SV 1896 35.989 53,6% 49.854
10 1. FC Kaiserslautern 35.706 - 7,5% 46.115


That's quite impressive.

For the odd game perhaps. But they're behind Schalke and Dortmund in terms of average attendance. I think Bayern average around 50-55k. Well below their capacity. I reckon we'll average 76K next season. Anyway, if had my way, ticket prices would be a lot cheaper, which would allow younger people to afford the thus bigger stadiums and bigger crowds. Doubt it will happen though.

That's not true. Average attendance figure for Bayern is 66.000. Every single match was sold out. And this trend will continue because almost all return fixtures are already sold out.
Have a look at this
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/index.php?template=news&stadionname=Allianz%20Arena&stadt=M%FCnchen&news_id=1144

@ManchesterISwonderful

Your figures were the 2004/2005 figures!!!! You can see that easily when you take a look at the capacity (63K) which represents the capacity of the old olympic stadium.

2005/2006:
http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/aveger.htm

Top Ten:

1 BV 09 Borussia Dortmund 77.294 - 3,0% 83.000
2 FC Schalke 04 61.341 0,3% 61.524
3 FC Bayern München 53.294 - 3,9% 63.000
4 VfL Borussia Mönchengladbach 49.183 52,4% 53.466
5 Hamburger SV 48.825 1,1% 55.800
6 Hertha BSC Berlin 48.486 18,5% 74.500
7 VfB Stuttgart 1893 41.367 - 4,4% 49.471
8 SV Werder Bremen 39.853 6,3% 42.109
9 Hannoverscher SV 1896 35.989 53,6% 49.854
10 1. FC Kaiserslautern 35.706 - 7,5% 46.115


That's quite impressive.

Those figures are old.
looks like season 2004/05.

That's last season though

This season (England)


Manchester United 67.852 5 0,2% 67.934


2 Newcastle United 52.155 6 0,6% 52.327

3 Liverpool 44.660 5 4,9% 44.917

4 Manchester City 42.590 6 -5,8% 43.647

5 Chelsea 41.797 6 -0,2% 42.146

6 Arsenal 38.058 6 0,2% 38.210

7 Everton 36.604 5 -0,6% 38.610

8 Tottenham Hotspur 35.983 6 0,2% 36.247

9 Sunderland 34.114 6 18,4% 39.085

10 Aston Villa 33.754 6 -9,6% 42.551


I reckon there's some scope from an increase in English attendances. United will have a bigger average attendance next year. So will Arsenal. Newcastle and Spurs both like United have 100% in the league, so there no reason why they couldn't fill bigger grounds. Fact remains though that it's cheaper for fans in Germany to goto games. I wonder what type of attendances English clubs could attract if we have a similarly priced tickets.

@ManchesterISwonderful

Your figures were the 2004/2005 figures!!!! You can see that easily when you take a look at the capacity (63K) which represents the capacity of the old olympic stadium.

2005/2006:
http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/aveger.htm


My mistake.

1 BV 09 Borussia Dortmund 74.863 9 -3,1% 81.264

2 FC Bayern München 66.000 8 23,8% 66.000

3 FC Schalke 04 61.306 8 -0,1% 61.524

4 Hamburger SV 50.378 10 3,2% 55.800

5 1. FC Köln 49.750 8 30,3% 50.000

6 VfL Borussia Mönchengladbach 45.906 9 -6,7% 53.466

7 SG Eintracht Frankfurt 44.075 8 85,5% 50.000

8 VfB Stuttgart 1893 41.778 9 1,0% 55.000

9 Hertha BSC Berlin 40.304 8 -16,9% 60.000


Yes, the Scot is right. Bayern could easily fill 70k+.

That's not true. Average attendance figure for Bayern is 66.000. Every single match was sold out. And this trend will continue because almost all return fixtures are already sold out.
Have a look at this
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/index.php?template=news&stadionname=Allianz%20Arena&stadt=M%FCnchen&news_id=1144


Yes, you're right. My mistake.

Simply not true. Sunderland is on average 14000 short of capacity, Aston Villa 8000 short, Man City and Middlesbrough both 6000 short, Everton 4000 short, Blackburn 10000 short, etc.

You might argue that if Man United had a bigger stadium then this would help averages, but Bayern Munich could argue the same as well. Bayern could have easily have had 80000 sellouts for every game if the Allianz Arena was bigger.

Why can't English people never admit when somebody is better than them at something. It's a really annoying English habit that you constantly see on these forums. Germany has by far the biggest attendances, accept it, live with it and face the facts.

None of those are near "half empty" though, only blackburn is reasonabley close at around 2/3rds capacity on average which is why I mentioned it. If we look at the german stadiums then Herta Berlin(speical case I know) averages 32,000 below max capacity, Stuttgart 15,000, Nürnberg 18,000, Hannover 12,000 etc so perhaps the lesson is that Scots should not automatically disbelieve anything an Englishmans says.

Hertha should have tried to get a halfway decent 45,000 seat stadium. The Olympiastadion is nice and all but it's a horrible place to watch a football game.

None of those are near "half empty" though, only blackburn is reasonabley close at around 2/3rds capacity on average which is why I mentioned it. If we look at the german stadiums then Herta Berlin(speical case I know) averages 32,000 below max capacity, Stuttgart 15,000, Nürnberg 18,000, Hannover 12,000 etc so perhaps the lesson is that Scots should not automatically disbelieve anything an Englishmans says.


It doesn't matter if a club is 4000 short of capacity on average, or 14000 short of capacity on average. In both cases a larger stadium would not increase averages as they cannot sell out the one the already have.

VfB Stuttgart have averaged 41778, Everton have averaged 36604. In both cases the stadium capacity is irrelevant as both teams cannot sell out 95% of their games. If both teams had 100000 stadiums, their averages would still be roughly the same as they cannot sell out their current stadiums.

Stuggarts ground as been under redevelopment all season, it's capacity at the beginning of the season was well below 55000, so its unfair to say they are 13000 short of capacity on average.

It doesn't matter if a club is 4000 short of capacity on average, or 14000 short of capacity on average. In both cases a larger stadium would not increase averages as they cannot sell out the one the already have.

VfB Stuttgart have averaged 41778, Everton have averaged 36604. In both cases the stadium capacity is irrelevant as both teams cannot sell out 95% of their games. If both teams had 100000 stadiums, their averages would still be roughly the same as they cannot sell out their current stadiums.

Stuggarts ground as been under redevelopment all season, it's capacity at the beginning of the season was well below 55000, so its unfair to say they are 13000 short of capacity on average.

Did I say anything about any of that? I merely stated that Prem grounds are on average fuller than Bundesliga grounds (in response to someones stating that they were often half empty) which is true. That said I would disagree with your point as a club with an average attendance of 29,000 in a 100,000 capacity stadium has likely sold as many tickets as they were able. A club with an average attendance of 29,000 in a 30,000 stadium on the other hand may well have been limated in the number of tickets they could sell for a bigger game.

Did I say anything about any of that? I merely stated that Prem grounds are on average fuller than Bundesliga grounds (in response to someones stating that they were often half empty) which is true. That said I would disagree with your point as a club with an average attendance of 29,000 in a 100,000 capacity stadium has likely sold as many tickets as they were able. A club with an average attendance of 29,000 in a 30,000 stadium on the other hand may well have been limated in the number of tickets they could sell for a bigger game.

I would agree for a 29000 average out of 30000, but not for a 36000 average out of 40000.

I would agree for a 29000 average out of 30000, but not for a 36000 average out of 40000.

I'd disagree as for big games theirs often a massive difference in demand, Barca for example averaged 73,000 last season yet their biggest attendance was 97,000. If your talking specifically about Everton this season then you may be correct however as they only sold 38,000 for the Merseyside derby.

I'd disagree as for big games theirs often a massive difference in demand, Barca for example averaged 73,000 last season yet their biggest attendance was 97,000. If your talking specifically about Everton this season then you may be correct however as they only sold 38,000 for the Merseyside derby.

but every team has a 'big game'. Stuttgart could have sold 90000 for the Bayern derby. However, these one or two 'big games' will make little difference to the overall average attendance.

but every team has a 'big game'. Stuttgart could have sold 90000 for the Bayern derby. However, these one or two 'big games' will make little difference to the overall average attendance.

Even one game out of 17-20 should have an impact on the average if its large enough, for most teams its more than 1 game a season aswell. As I said I don't see how that relates to anything thats has been dicussed in this thread though.

Did I say anything about any of that? I merely stated that Prem grounds are on average fuller than Bundesliga grounds (in response to someones stating that they were often half empty) which is true.

But its not true.
the average attendancy per game is higher in the Bundesliga.

Bundesliga is somewhat around 40.000
Premierleague is around 33.000

That's not true. Average attendance figure for Bayern is 66.000. Every single match was sold out. And this trend will continue because almost all return fixtures are already sold out.
Have a look at this
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/index.php?template=news&stadionname=Allianz%20Arena&stadt=M%FCnchen&news_id=1144

true.
the stadium is full for the whole season,and bayern will not have the slightest problem in repeating this success next season.
Rummenigge already stated that the enlargement to 70.000 is desperately needed.

On some occasions like for example against Juve the club could have easily sold 200.000 tickets!!

I think its really impressive that the allianz arena managed to attract 2.2 million visitors in less than a year.

Allianz Arena should of been made bigger.What they should do is after the Word Cup, convert 5000 seats behind each goal into standing areas. You would then have 10000 standing instead of 5000 sitting behind each goal. You would still have 66000 for European games as the standing areas can be converted to seats, but for Bundesliga games you would have 76000.

couldnt aggree more.
it was a mistake to limit the capacity to 66.000.
Even 70.000 will not be enough.
they should have built the stadium with a capacity of around 80 to 90k.
Bayern wouldnt have a problem with filling such a stadium.

just look at dortmund.They still get around 80k even though the club is really not doing well, and despite the fact that there are many other successfull clubs located in the same area.

At some point the novelty will wear off though. Bayern had its "Juve moments" as well, against teams like Kiev if I remember correctly.

And you can't compare the dedication of Ruhrgebiet fans to the Bayern clients. Schalke managed to sell out pretty much every Intertoto-Cup match.

And you can't compare the dedication of Ruhrgebiet fans to the Bayern clients. Schalke managed to sell out pretty much every Intertoto-Cup match.

Maybe. but Schalke didnt managed to sell out every intertoto cup game when they were still playing in the old Parkstadion.
It just comes with it, that the club gets higher attendances when you move to a new ground.

Even one game out of 17-20 should have an impact on the average if its large enough, for most teams its more than 1 game a season aswell. As I said I don't see how that relates to anything thats has been dicussed in this thread though.


Not necessarily. Let's say Everton had a 50000 stadium. The only games that this would help them in terms of ticket demand would be games against Liverpool and Man United. Lets say they got 46000 for both these games. This is an increase of 6000 for each of these games compared to their current capacity (40000). So the average increase would be 12000 divided by 19 (number of home games), which is 632. A very small increase. In real life it would be much less as Everton couldn't sell out their present ground for the last Liverpool game.

So in my theoretical scenario, the average attendances of Everton would go from 36000 in their present stadium to 36632 in their bigger 50000 stadium. Hardly worth bothering about.

Not necessarily. Let's say Everton had a 50000 stadium. The only games that this would help them in terms of ticket demand would be games against Liverpool and Man United. Lets say they got 46000 for both these games. This is an increase of 6000 for each of these games compared to their current capacity (40000). So the average increase would be 12000 divided by 19 (number of home games), which is 632. A very small increase. In real life it would be much less as Everton couldn't sell out their present ground for the last Liverpool game.

So in my theoretical scenario, the average attendances of Everton would go from 36000 in their present stadium to 36632 in their bigger 50000 stadium. Hardly worth bothering about.

Its true in Evertons case so far this season(although they've yet to play Man Utd at home) but often clubs can have attendances tens of of thousands over average and for most clubs its not just one game per year but many that would outsell the average. Also you fail to take into account the effect that season tickets will have, as a clubs stadiums capacity increases its likely the number of season tickets on offer will also increase which should increase the number of people attending minor fixtures they normally wouldnt if forced to buy on a fixture by fixtire basis.

In addition, many places count ticket sales rather than true attendance.

The USA counts ticket sales so you may see a 'sold out' game with 10,000 empty seats.

Its true in Evertons case so far this season(although they've yet to play Man Utd at home) but often clubs can have attendances tens of of thousands over average and for most clubs its not just one game per year but many that would outsell the average. Also you fail to take into account the effect that season tickets will have, as a clubs stadiums capacity increases its likely the number of season tickets on offer will also increase which should increase the number of people attending minor fixtures they normally wouldnt if forced to buy on a fixture by fixtire basis.

but the same applies to German clubs. Schalke v Dortmund could easily be a 130000 sell out. So there is no point in comparing potential attendances in theoretical stadiums. All that counts is present day attendances, and Germany thrashes everybody else when it comes to average attendances.

At some point the novelty will wear off though. Bayern had its "Juve moments" as well, against teams like Kiev if I remember correctly.

And you can't compare the dedication of Ruhrgebiet fans to the Bayern clients. Schalke managed to sell out pretty much every Intertoto-Cup match.

This "dedication" is mostly a myth, care to evaluate Schalke's attendance figures at their old ground ?
We'll most probably see the novelty factor wear off at Schalke before the same thing happens in Munich.... as long as they don't do a "Leeds".

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/0,1518,393810,00.html

:ohno:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/images/news/frankfurt_06_01_2006_1.jpg

In english?


Leaky roof?

^^ its an article about problems that have occured in the stadiums of Frankfurt (leaky roof),Kaiserslautern (cracks in the roof),and Nuremburg (unstable stands).

the wc comittee is not happy with that.

Bah, and us brits get stick from you lot (probably) for building shoddy stuff.

Everything will be fine. They are German after all. Germans know how to build things. My 'Medion' PC works like a dream.

There is nothing special in all those stadiums. No great creativity, except ofcourse for Munich's brilliant stadium design.

I think Portugal did better with Euro 2004 stadium designs. :)

Berlin, Munich, Dortmund, Gelsenkirchen pump all the Portuguese stadiums. Frankfurt, Hamburg, Leipzig are as good as anything Portugal can offer. I'm not having a go at Portugal, they done a great job, but they ain't a patch on Germany.

Stiftung Warentest sucks. They're saying that there could be disastrous consequences in case a panic breaks out. Well duh. IMO they're adding nothing new.

Some new pics from Kaiserslautern

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album203/IMG_1470.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album203/IMG_1464.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album203/IMG_1466.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album203/IMG_1491.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album203/IMG_1468.sized.jpg

This is what the Westkurve looked like not too long ago

http://www.fckfanclub-rimschweiler.net/bild_westkurve5.jpg

http://home.pages.at/bussard/FCKINI/westkurve.jpg

Cologne

http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans_neu/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/saison20052006/liga_11/170.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans_neu/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/saison20052006/liga_11/130.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans_neu/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/1_fc_koeln/saison20052006/liga_13/130.jpg

Frankfurt

http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans_neu/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/saison20052006/liga_12/108st.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans_neu/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/saison20052006/liga_12/170an.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans_neu/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/saison20052006/liga_12/150.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans_neu/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/saison20052006/liga_16/160.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans_neu/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/saison20052006/liga_16/220.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans_neu/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/saison20052006/liga_16/240gh.jpg

^^Kampflamm, those last pics are actually from Frankfurt. only the first 3 pics are from cologne

take a look at the roof ;)

more Frankfurt pics:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/aussen_01.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/aussen_02.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/aussen_03.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/innen_01.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/innen_02.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/innen_03.jpg

in the top row you'll enjoy a nice view over Frankfurts skyline it seems ;)
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/innen_08.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/sonstige_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/innen_11.jpg

your average vip box:
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/sonstige_01.jpg

inside:
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/sonstige_06.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/sonstige_08.jpg
the Frankfurt eagle from the old stadium:
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/sonstige_09.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/sonstige_10.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/sonstige_12.jpg

pic from an NFL Europe game during the construction of the stadium:
http://www.fulbright-alumni.de/frankfurt/bilder_galaxy2005/01_600.jpg
http://www.jeremyday.de/Freunde/Stadion%20g.JPG
frankfurt Galaxy fans :)
http://www.fulbright-alumni.de/frankfurt/bilder_galaxy2005/06_600.jpg

during a 2005 confederations cup game:
http://www.magazin-frankfurt.de/images/cobankarena.jpg


website: www.commerzbank-arena.de

World Cup venues 'risky for fans'
Fritz-Walter-Stadion in Kaiserslautern, Germany
The Kaiserslautern stadium: Alleged to be a fire risk
A German consumer group says several of the country's World Cup football stadiums have serious safety problems.

The Stiftung Warentest group's conclusions were dismissed by the head of Germany's World Cup organising committee, Franz Beckenbauer.

Germany is preparing 12 stadiums for the World Cup kicking off in June.

The Berlin stadium was among the four venues criticised. The ditch running around its pitch would be dangerous in a stampede, the organisation said.

The stadiums in Gelsenkirchen and Leipzig were also criticised for a lack of gates which would allow fans to come onto the pitch in an emergency, as prescribed by safety regulations.

The report said the Kaiserslautern stadium had serious fire risks.

Mr Beckenbauer dismissed the report, saying "the Stiftung Warentest might know what it's talking about with face creams, olive oil and vacuum cleaners, so it should stick to them".

"Frankly, I've had enough of these know-it-alls who are trying to make themselves important and profit from the World Cup," he told the Bild newspaper.

They're full of crap. All of the stadia have been built according to building regulations, if these new ones are unsafe I don't know what Stiftung Warentest would say about Italian or eastern European stadia.

They're full of crap. All of the stadia have been built according to building regulations, if these new ones are unsafe I don't know what Stiftung Warentest would say about Italian or eastern European stadia.

together we shall crush the rebellion scum.

here are some more pics i took from last summer's confed cup final..

http://people.freenet.de/microcks/pics/confedcup/frankfurt1.jpg
http://people.freenet.de/microcks/pics/confedcup/frankfurt2.jpg
http://people.freenet.de/microcks/pics/confedcup/frankfurt3.jpg
http://people.freenet.de/microcks/pics/confedcup/frankfurt4.jpg
http://people.freenet.de/microcks/pics/confedcup/frankfurt5.jpg
http://people.freenet.de/microcks/pics/confedcup/frankfurt6.jpg

Dortmund stadium is my favourite one...

Gelsenkirchen isn't the prettiest stadium in the world, but it is the most advanced stadium i Europe.

I has a retractable roof.
The field is moveable, so that it can be parked outside the stadium.

That's so cool!

Hertha should have tried to get a halfway decent 45,000 seat stadium. The Olympiastadion is nice and all but it's a horrible place to watch a football game.


Allerdings hat man im Olympiastadion von ueberall einen guten Blick aufs Spielfeld.

Da hat sich der Fuehrer was bei gedacht.

Na ja, wenn man ganz unten steht wohl eher nicht. Besides, you're miles away from the game but it's certainly not as bad as Stuttgart.

http://img432.imageshack.us/img432/7459/pano34ky.jpg

I think it's unfair to criticise Berlin for having an athletics track, as it is not a football only stadium, it is a multi-purpose stadium that will also be used for athletics. If I didn't have an athletics track then athletics fans would moan that it was useless for athletics. If it was a football only stadium then yes, criticisms would be justified. Criticising the Berlin stadium for having an athletics track would be like criticising the new Beijing stadium for having an athletics track!!


The question should be 'should it have been picked for the World Cup'?

I think Yes, as it really is monument of a stadium, a true beauty and a few games where the fans won't be close to the action is no big deal.

I've just booked my flights to Hamburg - I can't wait. Proper beer in one of the best countries in the world. Look out - here I come.

munich is the most breathtaking and dortmund has the most character. im not a fan of nuremberg at all . they should be use borussia mochengladbachs stadium instead.

Some more pics of Kaiserslautern

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album212/IMG_1621.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album212/IMG_1628.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album212/IMG_1633.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album212/IMG_1635.sized.jpg]

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album212/IMG_1650.sized.jpg

And more...

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album220/IMG_1789.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album220/IMG_1795.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album220/IMG_1830.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album220/IMG_1827.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album220/IMG_1798.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2172.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2193.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2198.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2210.sized.jpg

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2181.sized.jpg

^^ Im not sure about those video screens being mounted on ground level in the corners?

I dont think its very practical. Sure itll look good when a player takes a corner,but apart from that it would have been better to mount them to the roof I guess

Alliaz Arena sucks! Well, inside it's very nice, but I don't like the architecture from the outside. I don't get the feeling it's a footballstadium everytime I see it on picture.
Schalke Arena and AOL Arena are beautiful. I like them.

I heard something about a stadium that's build inside a stadium... Which one is that?

Alliaz Arena sucks! Well, inside it's very nice, but I don't like the architecture from the outside. I don't get the feeling it's a footballstadium everytime I see it on picture.
Schalke Arena and AOL Arena are beautiful. I like them.

I heard something about a stadium that's build inside a stadium... Which one is that?

Leipzig

Leipzig is fantastic -


Old stadium -

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_menu/past_future/pictures/past_stadiums/leipzig_zentralstadion2.jpg
http://wandel.ca/homepage/zentralstadion/0705_195301_img_1393.jpg
http://www.nordostfussball.de/stadien/stsachsen/altes-zentralstadion-leipzig/images/zentralstadion12.jpg
http://www.nordostfussball.de/stadien/stsachsen/altes-zentralstadion-leipzig/images/zentralstadion05.jpg
http://www.nordostfussball.de/stadien/stsachsen/altes-zentralstadion-leipzig/images/zentralstadion01.jpg
http://www.stadion-postkarten.de/cards/bs_14.gif


New stadium -

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/aussen_8.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/aussen_1.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/aussen_9.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/innen_1.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_sachsen_leipzig/images/d_nord_03.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/sonstige_11.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/innen_25.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/innen_15.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/luft_03.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/aussen_7.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/aussen_4.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/aussen_2.jpg
http://www.smart-travel-germany.com/image-files/leipzigstadium_large.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_sachsen_leipzig/images/e_sonstige_33.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_sachsen_leipzig/images/e_sonstige_30.jpg
http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/GER/Zentralstadion_A.jpeg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_sachsen_leipzig/images/b_sued_08.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/zentralstadion/20040123/wm_230104_04.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/luft_04.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_sachsen_leipzig/images/luft_05.jpg

what was the capacity before, seem kind of big, maybe in the 70's or even 80's...

by the way it looks great, i like the concept, reminds me of Chicago's Soldier Field, not that look the same, just because the concept of building a new stadium within the old one

what's Kaiserslautern capacity???

The previous stadium was impressive enough. Over 100,000 bench seats, laid out in a natural bowl, surrounding an athletics track, it was one of the biggest stadiums in East Germany. It was used for show piece events including East German football matches, athletics meetings and the bi-annual East German games. However, after the fall of communism in 1989, the stadium started falling into disrepair. At the time, VFB Leipzig were flying high in the East German leagues, and had been runners up to Ajax in the 1987 UEFA Cup final, and were invited to take part in the first combined Bundesliga in 1993/94.

However, as with most of the other great East German teams like Dynamo Dresden and FC Magdeburg, they found it difficult to adjust to life in the new top division. A slow downward spiral was halted in 2004 when the club was declared bankrupt with debts of over US$5m. A new club rose from the ashes in the form of Lokomotiv Leipzig, playing their games at Bruno Plache Stadion starting in the 11th division of the German football pyramid.

The stadium construction began in late 2000 on the site of the old stadium, and was completed in March 2004. On the 17th November 2004, the German team played their first international in Leipzig for over 15 years when they took on Cameroon. The new stadium is certainly unique in terms of traditional German stadiums. It is built on the same lines as the Estadio Drago in Porto, and has a passing resemblance to the Telstra Stadium in Sydney, although on a smaller scale. The stadium is made up of two tiers, with the lower tier wrapping completely around the pitch. The upper tiers extend from corner to corner in a big arch, with the seating levels rising to the centre of the stadium. Entry to the stadium is quite unique as well. The turnstiles are located at the bottom of the outside bowl. Spectators then climb the steep steps to a pathway that formed the lip of the original stadium.

From there a series of drawbridge-like walkways run downwards onto the central concourse. The concourse runs at the top of the lower tier, and runs around the stadium, meaning fans using the facilities can look down into the stadium. The seats themselves are set about 8 feet above the pitch allowing excellent views of the action from behind the goals. Leg room is very generous, especially when compared to some of the new build stadiums in Britain. Two screens hang down from the roof behind the goals allowing all the fans to follow the action as well.

I went to the Veltins Arena last night to watch a boring 0-0 draw between Schalke and Borussia Dortmund. Here are some pics though.

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04arena12.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04arena22.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04jumbotron2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04nordkurve2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04choreo2.jpg

Dortmund fans:

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04bvb2.jpg

Some other pics of the game

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04angriff2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04bordon2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04circle2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04eckebvb2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04eckerost2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04freistoss22.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04freistossbordon2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04bordon32.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04freistosslincoln2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04kk2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04img12.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04img22.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04img32.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04img42.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04lincoln12.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04schnitzelamball2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//s04verletzt2.jpg

New Pics:


http://www.1fck.de/albums/album220/IMG_1791.sized.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2172.sized.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2177.sized.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2183.sized.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2184.sized.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2191.sized.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2200.sized.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album232/IMG_2202.sized.jpg

gameday: 1.FC Kaiserslautern - Schalke 04 (poorly attended)

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album234/IMG_2224.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album234/IMG_2218.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album234/IMG_2227.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album234/IMG_2228.jpg
http://www.1fck.de/albums/album234/IMG_2229.sized.jpg

Most of these stadiums are impressive, but a country like Germany shouldn't be hosting a WC with 3 stadiums with tracks. Berlin is fine because it is a historic stadium and is the biggest stadium that will be used with 75,000 seats.

If it were up to me, I would replace Stuttgart with this.

http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/GER/LTU-Arena.html

and the one in Nuremburg with this.

http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/GER/Borussia-Park.html

Those 2 stadiums are fantastic and rival some of the better stadiums used in the bid. It's too bad they didn't go with those 2 stadiums instead.

I agree with you. THe problem is that both LTU Arena and Borussia Park are located within like 40kms of each other. The entire region already has 3 stadiums with Cologne, Gelsenkirchen and Dortmund, so a couple of additional stadiums would be a bit unfair to the rest of the country.

Well, I always have the opinion that the EUR240M that was spent to renovate the Berlin Olympic Stadium should have been used to build a completely new football stadium in Berlin. The Allianz Arena costed EUR320M, so....

I don't agree.

Football currently isn't that big in Berlin. With Hertha BSC attracting many but not too many fans I hardly see any reason why they'd need a stadium bigger than 40k or 50k on their own.

Second possibility for a complete new structure would have been a "Stade de France" or "Wembley" -thing which we don't need in Germany, since the national team fortunately travels to the fans - not the other way round.

Main reason is:
Berlin is probably the only city in Germany which really deserves a big athletic stadium. Furthermore the stadium needed to get renovated... so what should you do? Destroy it?
I think it's a great stadium now. 240M for renovating a 70 years old stadium isn't that much I guess...

It is still a pretty impressive stadium. The only thing I hate about the new roof are those beams which hold it up. Couldn't they have found a way to build a roof without the support beams?

It is still a pretty impressive stadium. The only thing I hate about the new roof are those beams which hold it up. Couldn't they have found a way to build a roof without the support beams?

The roof supports are the only part of the olympic stadium I dislike. I thought the reason they were there was a money issue? If more money had been spent no they wouldn't be there, but the cost would have beeen very high.

No, money wasnt a reason, they had to build the roof that it wouldnt affect the "1936's look" from the outside. Therefore unfortunately there was no chance of avoiding these pillars...

I don't agree.

Football currently isn't that big in Berlin. With Hertha BSC attracting many but not too many fans I hardly see any reason why they'd need a stadium bigger than 40k or 50k on their own.

Second possibility for a complete new structure would have been a "Stade de France" or "Wembley" -thing which we don't need in Germany, since the national team fortunately travels to the fans - not the other way round.

Main reason is:
Berlin is probably the only city in Germany which really deserves a big athletic stadium. Furthermore the stadium needed to get renovated... so what should you do? Destroy it?
I think it's a great stadium now. 240M for renovating a 70 years old stadium isn't that much I guess...


Why hold the final in Berlin then? Politically impossible?

What kind of renovations did it need? 240M is quite a lot of money, Allianz arena only costed 80M more. Why not just do the most basic renovations to keep it alive and build a new stadium somewhere else?

It is daft to criticise Berlin for having an athletics track. It is not a football only stadium, so there is no problem with it having an athletics track. The roof supports were needed as it was the only way to do it. A total cantilever design was out of the question as this would have compromised the outer design of the stadium. The only way to have done it would be the use of air pressure in an enclosed stadium, but this would of involved enclosing the 'marathon gate', which was also unacceptable.

Why hold the final in Berlin then? Politically impossible?

Certainly because Berlin is the capital of the WC's host-country.
But also because of the huge capacity. Why host the most important match of the tournament in a smaller stadium? Atmosphere will still be very good. I think it's a perfect setting for the final. German Cup Finals are also hold there since the reunion and nobody ever complained.


What kind of renovations did it need? 240M is quite a lot of money, Allianz arena only costed 80M more. Why not just do the most basic renovations to keep it alive and build a new stadium somewhere else?

As far as I know, the Berlin stadium was near to a total collapse if they hadn't done serious renovations. I'm not an architect, but I guess the most expensive parts of a stadium are the roof (which is completely new), the concrete structure itself (which needed to be stabilized, renewed etc.) and the interior fittings (which look very impressive and high-class...).
Changing some seats only, just won't do it...

Maybe you get a better impression by looking at these pictures:

Reconstruction 2002 (http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/index.php?id=90)
Reconstruction 2003 (http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/index.php?id=89)

As I said, Berlin certainly has a need of a high-class athletics stadium. And that's what they got now.

They lowered the pitch, added new seats, a roof and gave the stadium just a general make-over. It's still pretty expensive though.

They lowered the pitch, added new seats, a roof and gave the stadium just a general make-over. It's still pretty expensive though.

They done a lot more than that. It was a massive reconstruction project.

I'm not an architect, but I guess the most expensive parts of a stadium are the roof (which is completely new),


The roof cost 26 million euros.

I can certainly see both sides of the arguement, its a beautiful(which the renovation only adds to IMHO) historically important stadium in the captial that was part of both the east and the west but its also not ideal for football and I doubt it will be full very often after the WC. I'd guess the alternative would have been to build a 75-80,000 seat Allianz Arena and a new 40-50,000 seat football only stadium for Hertha Berlin.

I can certainly see both sides of the arguement, its a beautiful(which the renovation only adds to IMHO) historically important stadium in the captial that was part of both the east and the west but its also not ideal for football and I doubt it will be full very often after the WC. I'd guess the alternative would have been to build a 75-80,000 seat Allianz Arena and a new 40-50,000 seat football only stadium for Hertha Berlin.

It was full last week. I do agree 74000 is a bit big for Hertha Berlin, but I think they would be looking at a 60000 football stadium (50000 for internationals/UEFA, 60000 for Bundesliga games). Whether or not they build one doesn't matter, as the Berlin Olympic Stadium had to be rebuilt, it is more than a stadium, it is a monument.

http://dfb.de/bliga/spiel.php?art=schema&liga=bl1m&spielid=fbbl1m_3153&spieltag=20&saison=05&saisonl=2005

Thats was for Bayern's visit though, the biggest attendance before that was 60,000 with an average of 40,000 according to euro football stats plus I assume that German internationals will continue moving around the country after the world cup aswell. I spose its hard to say for sure if the massive demand AA tickets this season is perminant or merely down to the temporary thrill of a new stadium but it tends to suggest to me that an 80,000+ capacity would have been sustainable.

I don't think you can really criticize the Berlin Olympic Stadium that much though if you consider the Rose Bowl is the only football configured stadium to host the WC final in the last 16 years.

Please keep things in perspective.

Of course a purpose built stadium is preferrable but it's not like there cannot be a great athmosphere in a statium with an athletics track.

I have been to many games in the Wilparkstadium (http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/index.php?template=stadionguides&land=deutschland&stadion=karlsruher_sc) of Karlsruhe. Back in the mid 90's when the KSC played Bundesliga and UEFA cup. A 40k stadium with athletics track and no roof over the curves. Still the athmosphere was fantastic when that place was sold out. And the view was still ok, even from the corners. We just screamed Valencia out of the stadium (7:0 hehe, and they were Spain's no. 1 back then).

So there is just no reason not to play in Berlin, Germany's capital, largest city and one of the largest stadiums as well. Or in Stuttgart and Nürnberg, whose stadia - while not being the prettiest - are all albsolutely suitable. And a simple look on the map should make it clear to eveyone why these cities were selected instead of Düsseldorf or Mönchengladbach.

It may be hard to accept in an architecture forum, but architecture was not the only criterium when the venues were selected, and probably not even one of top priority. ;)

Please keep things in perspective.

Of course a purpose built stadium is preferrable but it's not like there cannot be a great athmosphere in a statium with an athletics track.

I have been to many games in the Wilparkstadium (http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/index.php?template=stadionguides&land=deutschland&stadion=karlsruher_sc) of Karlsruhe. Back in the mid 90's when the KSC played Bundesliga and UEFA cup. A 40k stadium with athletics track and no roof over the curves. Still the athmosphere was fantastic when that place was sold out. And the view was still ok, even from the corners. We just screamed Valencia out of the stadium (7:0 hehe, and they were Spain's no. 1 back then).

So there is just no reason not to play in Berlin, Germany's capital, largest city and one of the largest stadiums as well. Or in Stuttgart and Nürnberg, whose stadia - while not being the prettiest - are all albsolutely suitable. And a simple look on the map should make it clear to eveyone why these cities were selected instead of Düsseldorf or Mönchengladbach.

It may be hard to accept in an architecture forum, but architecture was not the only criterium when the venues were selected, and probably not even one of top priority. ;)

It would of been mad not to use the Olympic Stadium in Berlin for WC 2006. Same goes for Nuremberg as it is such a nice city. Nurembergs stadium is actually better than Stuttgarts stadium.

definitely Munich.

Looks pretty damn good for a parking garage (Berlin)

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-58.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-69.jpg

I gotta say that after looking at some pics of Berlin I changed my mind about the stadium. It's a pretty nice fusion between old and new. It's certainly more impressive than your average run-of-the-mill football stadium. It's an architectural gem.

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-32.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-25.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/berlin/images/aussen_1.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/bild05_01.jpg

The roof supports are the only part of the olympic stadium I dislike. I thought the reason they were there was a money issue? If more money had been spent no they wouldn't be there, but the cost would have beeen very high.

I just bought a book about the wc stadia. As Yves mentioned, one of the regulations put forth by the Denkmalschutz (something like a heritage foundation), was that from the outside the original "Greek arena look" was supposed to be kept, hence a roof similar to the ones in places like Stuttgart or Vienna (Ernst-Happel-Stadion) was out of the question. Apparently the architect's also pretty pissed off about the blue running track because during the building process he had to go to great lenghts to preserve the 1930s look and then they added a blue running track later on.

I guess the most expensive part was the reconstruction of the lower bowl. If I read things correctly, the entire lower bowl was more or less reconstructed because it was in such a horrendous condition.

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/februar1.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/November1.jpg

So in a sense half of the stadium was built from scratch.

Berlin's Olympic Stadium, though not perfect for football, looks bloody amazing. Now, it's not the most modern, but that's not important as you can just feel the history behind it. Looks like we've gone in a time machine and seen what the place looked like in 30's, just after being completed. Very strange.

I love it.

There's loads of underground stuff that was also added in the Berlin reconstruction (media centre, warm up tracks/facilities, car parks etc) -

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/olympiastadion_berlin/20030423/Berlin_jonam_0403_15.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/olympiastadion_berlin/20030423/Berlin_jonam_0403_16.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/olympiastadion_berlin/20030423/Berlin_jonam_0403_18.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/innen_21.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/innen_29.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/innen_25.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/sosntige_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/aussen_11.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/fans_shop_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/fans_shop_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/luft_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/luft_05.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/bild24jpg.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-14.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-67.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/ehren_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/ehren_04.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/aussen_16.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/aussen_18.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/ehren_06.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/aussen_06.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/ehren_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/eroeffnung_19.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hertha_bsc_berlin/images/eroeffnung_17.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/bild28jpg_01.jpg

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/uploads/pics/ZS05-17.jpg

...
2. Place would be Berlin
The Stadium is over 70 Years old and still amzing
When I saw first pictures I immediately thought "strange, but it looks like a fascisc/nazi architecture". Now I know why :lol:
Bird-eye and inside pictures of this stadium are more neutral, but the first with "roman-like" pillars/columns and "Colosseum-like" shape, hmmm... :sly:

Purely on looks I'd personally take Berlin ahead of the AA.

Great to see that there will plaenty of seats that will have restricted veiws for the WC final!!

Great to see that there will plaenty of seats that will have restricted veiws for the WC final!!


The roof supports were needed as it was the only way to do it. A total cantilever design was out of the question as this would have compromised the outer design of the stadium. The only way to have done it would be the use of air pressure in an enclosed stadium, but this would of involved enclosing the 'marathon gate'. This was looked into, but enclosing the 'marathon gate' was also deemed unacceptable as again this was too much of a change from the original design.

For me, the roof supports are the only disappointment in an almost perfect multi-purpose stadium.

Obviously it is not an ideal football stadium, but it is not supposed to be a football only stadium. Saying the Berlin Olympic Stadium is not ideal for football is like saying the Bernabeu is poor for athletics!!

Saying the Berlin Olympic Stadium is not ideal for football is like saying the Bernabeu is poor for athletics!!

Not at all.

Because the Bernebau has never been used for athletics and will never be used for athletics. By contrast, the Berlin Olympic stadium is used for football and will continue to be used for football.

So saying that the Olympic stadium is not ideal for football is a valid comment. Saying that the Bernebau is poor for athletics is not valid.

Not at all.

Because the Bernebau has never been used for athletics and will never be used for athletics. By contrast, the Berlin Olympic stadium is used for football and will continue to be used for football.

So saying that the Olympic stadium is not ideal for football is a valid comment. Saying that the Bernebau is poor for athletics is not valid.

But the Bernabau cannot be used for athletics at all, which can be argued is even worse. Better to have a stadium that can do something reasonably than not at all.

The Berlin stadium was designed from day one to be a multi purpose stadium, and should be judged as one. It should not be judged as a football stadium as it is not a football stadium.

But the Bernabau cannot be used for athletics at all, which can be argued is even worse. Better to have a stadium that can do something reasonably than not at all.

And better to have a stadium that can do something excellently than reasonably.

The Berlin stadium was designed from day one to be a multi purpose stadium, and should be judged as one. It should not be judged as a football stadium as it is not a football stadium.

I agree. But it is still, nevertheless, valid and reasonable to say that the Berlin Olympic stadium is not ideal for football. Because it isn't. That doesn't necessarily have to be interpreted as a criticism of the stadium. It is merely a recognition of the fact that the needs of athletics and football cannot be perfectly accomodated in one stadium.

And better to have a stadium that can do something excellently than reasonably.

and Berlin does do something excellently - athletics (with the added bonus of doing football reasonably).

and Berlin does do something excellently - athletics (with the added bonus of doing football reasonably).

Agreed.

And I'm glad to see that you've also conceded that the Olympic stadium is not ideal football. Only "reasonable"!

Obviously it's not ideal but then again no football with an athletics track is. It has a certain wow-factor though.

The world cup does seem to have a strange idea about being played in many excellent new stadiums but the final itself played in a poor, sometimes old athletics venue in the capital city.

I dont think FIFA mind as long as there are plenty of their sponsor´s seats on the side where the track doesnt matter much and there probably is a desire to stage the final in the capital.

Its an ok setting for a world cup final, and indeed the german cup final.

Its far worse to have this sort of thing week in week out for average league games especially when it isnt full, so Hertha Berlin should really look to move.

Agreed.

And I'm glad to see that you've also conceded that the Olympic stadium is not ideal football. Only "reasonable"!


Of course. Only a madman would say it is 'ideal' for football. I have heard it is one of the better athletics stadiums to watch football in.

and Berlin does do something excellently - athletics (with the added bonus of doing football reasonably).

but who would want the WORLD CUP final to be hosted "reasonably". its the pinacle of football it should be done excellently!

but who would want the WORLD CUP final to be hosted "reasonably". its the pinacle of football it should be done excellently!


In an ideal world yes, but we don't live in an ideal world. Berlin will be fine. 74000 fans enjoying a final in a superb stadium, it will be fine. 99.99% of people will be watching it on tv anyway.

Good video of the AWD arena (Hannover) here -

rtsp://ras01.wdr.de/online/ard_sport/2006/fussball/wm2006/awd_arena_hannover_g.rm

Here are the plans to turn Stuttgart into a football only stadium after the World Cup -

http://x4.putfile.com/9/25204244813.jpg

Thanks to Patrick

Stadiums and Arenas in Germany with its own thread:

BERIN | O2 World | 15,500 | Completed (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444156)
DORTMUND | Westfalenstadion | 80,552 | Completed (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=212463)
GELSENKIRCHEN | Arena AufSchalke | 61,673 | Completed (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=755170)
MÜNCHEN | Allianz-Arena | 69,901 | Completed (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=33445)

BREMEN | Weserstadion | 43,000 | Under construction (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=444861)

STUTTGART | Neckarstadion | 60,000 | Proposed (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=654602)

Stadiums and Arenas in this thread:

BIELEFELD | Almstadion | 28,008 | Completed | Latest photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=22271688#post22271688)
COTTBUS | Stadion der Freundschaft | 22,528 | Completed | Some photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=30289716#post30289716)
MÜNCHEN | Olympiastadion | 69,250 | Completed | Some photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=21658227#post21658227)
OBERSTDORF | Schattenbergstadion and Heidi-Klopfer-Schanze (Ski-Jumping) | 27,000 and 40,000 | Completed | Some photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=22771126#post22771126)
SINSHEIM | Rhein-Neckar-Arena | 30,000 | Completed | Some photos here (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=30874300#post30874300) and at nearly every other page of this thread.

AACHEN | Neuer Tivoli | 32,000 | Under construction | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=27427598#post27427598) | Latest photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=30246328#post30246328)
AUGSBURG | Impuls-Arena | 30,119 | Under construction | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=22657852#post22657852) | Latest photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=31029984#post31029984)
BERLIN | Stadion an der Alten Försterei | 23,000 | Under construction | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=29724944#post29724944)
DRESDEN | Rudolf-Harbig-Stadion | Under construction | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=22211748#post22211748) | Latest photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=31029448#post31029448)
FRANKFURT | Stadion am Bornheimer Hang | 10,300 | Under construction | Latest photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=25756444#post25756444)
HAMBURG | Millerntor-Stadion | 27,000 | Under construction | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=27438622#post27438622) | Latest photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=18235062#post18235062)
LEVERKUSEN | Bay-Arena | 30,000 | Under construction | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=17101917#post17101917) | Latest photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=30612004#post30612004)

FRANKFURT | Rhein-Main-Arena | 12,500 | Proposed | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=16356962#post16356962)
OFFENBACH | Stadion am Bieberer Berg | 29,300 | Proposed | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=24582236#post24582236)

GELSENKIRCHEN | Parkstadion | 62,004 | Demolished | Latest photos (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=22184598#post22184598)

Stadium-Overview 1. Fußball-Bundesliga 2008/09 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=21459964#post21459964)
Stadium-Overview 2. Fußball-Bundesliga 2008/09 (new teams only) (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=21449996#post21449996)
Stadium-Overview 2. Fußball-Bundesliga 2007/08 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=19525851#post19525851)
Stadium-Overview 3. Fußball-Liga 2008/09 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=21494319#post21494319)
Stadium-Overview Fußball-Regionalliga 2008/09 (Nord, Süd and West) (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=22684166#post22684166)
Stadium-Overview Fußball-Oberliga 2008/09 (prominent teams only) (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=22691488#post22691488)


FRANKFURT | Rhein-Main-Arena | 12,500 | Proposed | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=16356962#post16356962)
JENA | Ernst-Abbe-Sportfeld | 20,643 | Proposed | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=31391760#post31391760)
OFFENBACH | Stadion am Bieberer Berg | 29,300 | Proposed | Renderings (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=24582236#post24582236)
------------------------------------------------------











Renderings for the three final proposals of Alemannia Aachens new stadium.
Itll have a cap of 32.000

Option 1 (http://www.alemannia-stadion.de/v1/stadion/stadionmodell_bieter_nr_9/index.htm)

Option 2 (http://www.alemannia-stadion.de/v1/stadion/stadionmodell_bieter_nr_13/index.htm)

Option 3 (http://www.alemannia-stadion.de/v1/stadion/stadionmodell_bieter_nr_15/index.htm)



-----------------------------------------------------
Home of Bayer 04 Leverkusen. It is one of my favourite little grounds, but may soon be going up to 30000. Currently holds 22500. It also has a drive-thru McDonalds!!


Current stadium -

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/gaeste_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/luft_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/sued_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/sued_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/sued_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/sonstige_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/aussen_12.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/aussen_09.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/aussen_07.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/aussen_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/aussen_10.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/gegen_01.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/gegen_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/nord_04.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/haupt_07.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/haupt_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/kompakt_10.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/kompakt_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/kompakt_07.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/kompakt_08.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/gegen_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/saison20052006/liga_4/170wi.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/saison20052006/liga_18/110.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/saison20052006/liga_2/110.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/saison20052006/liga_2/120.jpg

http://www.lindner.de/ImgArchive/BAY/050_bay_aahotelluft.jpg

http://images.worldres.com/property/a11000/11385/hotel.jpg


Upgraded stadium -

http://people.freenet.de/setaims/bayarena1.jpg

http://people.freenet.de/setaims/bayarena2.jpg

Very average stadium, to be honest. The sides and one end are harmless but bland.

And the other end which is just a mass of corporate boxes stacked up over a few rows of seats is just horrible. If they're going to redevelop, then that end is where they should start.

That end has just been redeveloped.

That end has just been redeveloped.

What do you mean?

Do these pictures show what that end used to look like before redevelopment?

Or were these pictures taken after redevelopment?

I very much hope that it isn't the latter.

Those luxury boxes were added a couple of years ago.

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/bayer_04_leverkusen/images/sued_04.jpg

If I remember correctly, in the old days the stands went up to the first row of luxury boxes.

Look at the lower left picture on that postcard:

http://www.stadion-postkarten.de/cards/bs_165.jpg

Bayarena is great.

the arena will definitely be upgraded. Its just a question of time.
Bayer Leverkusen is one of europe's top clubs and a 22k stadium is just way too small for them.
Leverkusen is situated quite next to Cologne which has 1 million inhabitants.
With the metro population they would easily be able to fill a 60k stadium on a weekly basis.

The problem is that Bayer has no fanbase. As you mentioned Cologne is nearby and any self-respecting human being is a fan of any of area's teams except for Bayer.

I don't have the exact #s but they haven't even sold out their tiny park for every game this season.

Great idea, to do it after the WC. Although I doubt it'll happen because Stuttgart still wants to attract track & field events.

Anyway, K'lautern before and after:

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3568/wallpaperfritzwalter6bs.jpg

Some additional pics from Stuttgart

http://www.asp-stuttgart.de/data/photos//496_GDS3BA/image/496_gds3ba02.jpg

http://www.asp-stuttgart.de/data/photos//496_GDS3BA/image/496_gds3ba15.jpg

http://www.asp-stuttgart.de/data/photos//496_GDS3BA/image/496_gds3ba05.jpg

http://www.asp-stuttgart.de/data/photos//496_GDS3BA/image/496_gds3ba10.jpg

http://www.asp-stuttgart.de/data/photos//496_GDS3BA/image/496_gds3ba07.jpg

http://www.asp-stuttgart.de/data/photos//496_GDS3BA/image/496_gds3ba04.jpg

^^ Well they have been struggling the last two seasons.
But i think as soon as theyll play championsleague people will visit the games.

and then again its only a matter of time until Cologne will be relegated into the 2nd division again. ;)

Apparantly the responsible architect thinks, that it is possible to transform the daimler stadium into a pure football stadium without having to lower the pitch. :bash:

that pretty much sounds to me as the typical swabian "cheap solution"

Its bad enough that it took them decades to realize that an athletics stadium might not be exactly perfect for football matches.
whats worse is, that they start this discussion now, just before the world cup.

VFB Stuttgart should just go ahead and built a stadium on their own. maybe something like the daLuz or emirates.

The arena looks pretty cool.

heres the article:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/index.php?template=news&stadionname=Gottlieb-Daimler-Stadion&stadt=Stuttgart&news_id=1204

quote:

Architekt Mete Arat, der mit seinem Büro Arat, Siegel & Partner sämtliche Umbauten des Stadions seit 1990 begleitet hatte und derzeit im Rahmen einer Machbarkeitsstudie den Umbau in ein reines Fußballstadion durchdenkt, soll von der Idee einer Absenkung um vier Meter abgerückt sein und stattdessen zwei günstigere Varianten prüfen: Eine Möglichkeit komme mit einer geringen Tieferlegung des Spielfelds um 1,30 Meter aus, die andere könne sogar ganz ohne Absenkung ein reines Fußballstadion realisieren.

Doch auch ohne Kenntnis der Skizzen ist offensichtlich, dass ein Umbau ohne jede Absenkung des Spielfelds einen Nachteil hätte: Auch nach dem Umbau läge die Gegentribüne noch immer sehr weit vom Spielfeld entfernt. Sofern also eine Reduzierung derzeitigen Abstands (ca. 20 Meter) angestrebt wird, wäre die eine Absenkung des Spielfeldes und die Verlängerung der Tribünen die bessere Option

:bash: :bash:

Translation?

^^ Well they have been struggling the last two seasons.
But i think as soon as theyll play championsleague people will visit the games.

and then again its only a matter of time until Cologne will be relegated into the 2nd division again. ;)

The team doesn't have a fanbase though. Even though Cologne has played poorly over the last decade, they're still a much, much bigger draw than Bayer. Expanding the stadium to 30,000 would mean that they'll only get sell outs vs Bayern, Schalke, Dortmund and Cologne.

You're Dutch, you should understand it. ;)

Anyway, instead of lowering the pitch by 4m, two other solutions are up for discussion: lowering it by 1.3m and leaving the pitch at the same level. The problem is that the the stands are tremendously far away from the pitch, so this sort of solution is a disaster.

^^ Well they have been struggling the last two seasons.
But i think as soon as theyll play championsleague people will visit the games.

and then again its only a matter of time until Cologne will be relegated into the 2nd division again. ;)

They played CL last year and beated Real Madrid with 3-0, didn't they?

The problem is that Bayer has no fanbase. As you mentioned Cologne is nearby and any self-respecting human being is a fan of any of area's teams except for Bayer.

I don't have the exact #s but they haven't even sold out their tiny park for every game this season.


but nearly every game for about 10 years has been a 22500 sell out. It is nearly always sold out!! This means they need a bigger stadium.


The only games not sold out this season have been -

Bayer Leverkusen - VfL Wolfsburg 4:0 (20000)
Bayer Leverkusen - Hannover 96 0:0 (21000)
Bayer Leverkusen - Hertha BSC Berlin 1:2 (21000)

Home of Bayer 04 Leverkusen. It is one of my favourite little grounds, but may soon be going up to 30000. Currently holds 22500. It also has a drive-thru McDonalds!!


How do you say, "I would like a Big Mac meal, please" in German?

The only games not sold out this season have been -

Bayer Leverkusen - VfL Wolfsburg 4:0 (20000)
Bayer Leverkusen - Hannover 96 0:0 (21000)
Bayer Leverkusen - Hertha BSC Berlin 1:2 (21000)

But that's 3 home games already. I'm sorry, but if you can't even sell out a small park like that, you don't deserve a bigger stadium.

Again, all of the other teams in the area (Cologne, Mönchengladbach, Schalke, Dortmund, even Düsseldorf) have already sucked the fan landscape dry.

But that's 3 home games already. I'm sorry, but if you can't even sell out a small park like that, you don't deserve a bigger stadium.

Again, all of the other teams in the area ( Schalke, Dortmund, even Düsseldorf) have already sucked the fan landscape dry.


It has nothing to do with deserving. Bayer Leverkusen need a bigger stadium and that is why they will build one. If your stadium is 98% full for a season then you need a bigger stadium. If your stadium is anything more than 90% full for a season then you need a bigger stadium. It is all about percentages. Cologne, Mönchengladbach, etc have all had more than 3 games not sold out, are you saying their stadiums are too big? Of course not, as their large stadiums help increase their average attendances.

30000 is a sensible move for Bayer Leverkusen as their average would go up to about 27-28000.

Fair point made, now would be a good time to increase the stadiums capacity. Also, if Germany has a half decent WC, the Bundesliga will probably see an increase in people attending league games.

Fair point made, now would be a good time to increase the stadiums capacity. Also, if Germany has a half decent WC, the Bundesliga will probably see an increase in people attending league games.

Well the Bundesliga is already the best attended football league. So it will be difficult to stir up viewing figures even more.

It has nothing to do with deserving. Bayer Leverkusen need a bigger stadium and that is why they will build one. If your stadium is 98% full for a season then you need a bigger stadium. If your stadium is anything more than 90% full for a season then you need a bigger stadium. It is all about percentages. Cologne, Mönchengladbach, etc have all had more than 3 games not sold out, are you saying their stadiums are too big? Of course not, as their large stadiums help increase their average attendances.

30000 is a sensible move for Bayer Leverkusen as their average would go up to about 27-28000.

I aggree. Bayer is one of europes top clubs and a 22k seater is just to small.
That is a point that really doesnt need to be discussed.
Bayer is the only club around Cologne that has the potential to play in the CL.
Whereas 1.FC Koeln can be happy if they play in the first league for another year.

And the stadium will definitely be enlarged. Bayer officials have already aggreed on this point.
The question is just how, and when it will be enlarged.
Money shouldnt be a big problem since the club is backed by the pharmaceutical giant Bayer.

Personally I would opt for something around 50k maybe. But realistically they will probably go for around 40k I believe.

some more munich pics:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/images/sonstige_01.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/images/sonstige_03.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/images/sonstige_04.jpg

the press conference room:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/images/sonstige_06.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/images/sonstige_09.jpg

dressing room:
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/images/sonstige_10.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/images/sonstige_11.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/images/sonstige_12.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/images/aussen_05.jpg

The averages in Germany are about to break the 40000 barrier.... crazy figures for an average!!!

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/aveger.htm

That's 18.23% bigger than England!! Even Arsenals new stadium and other redevelopments will not help bridge that gap!! Bayerns average will go up to 69901 next season, although Cologne getting relegated will not help!!

Why can't Cologne get a foothold in the top division? A huge club but always up-down-up-down!! whereas Leverkusen can get to a Champions League final and almost win it!!

I know Leverkusen are backed by Bayer, but Cologne should at least be top division regulars!!

After seeing the CL game yesterday between Bayern Munich and Ac Milan I have to say that those fences and nets behind the goals look really crappy.
It kinda brings the whole atmosphere of the stadium down.
The only thing you see behind the goal is just grey steel.
Why dont they dismount the fences for CL games??

After seeing the CL game yesterday between Bayern Munich and Ac Milan I have to say that those fences and nets behind the goals look really crappy.
It kinda brings the whole atmosphere of the stadium down.
The only thing you see behind the goal is just grey steel.
Why dont they dismount the fences for CL games??

because then Oliver Khan would get hit on the head by a golf ball.......again :lol:

Bayerns average will go up to 69901 next season, although Cologne getting relegated will not help!!

Yes, and I do believe that Bayern,being the top club in Germany could even fill a 85k stadium very easily on a weekly basis.
the club officials have certainly made a mistake in the planning stages by estimating future viewing figures too low.


Why can't Cologne get a foothold in the top division? A huge club but always up-down-up-down!! whereas Leverkusen can get to a Champions League final and almost win it!!

One reason for this is, that Bayer used to have a much more professional management in the last decade with Rainer Calmund.
And before Rettig took the management of Cologne, the club was managed quite poorly and old fashioned.
Bayer also gets big funding from its name sponsor : Bayer

The averages in Germany are about to break the 40000 barrier.... crazy figures for an average!!!

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/aveger.htm

That's 18.23% bigger than England!! Even Arsenals new stadium and other redevelopments will not help bridge that gap!! Bayerns average will go up to 69901 next season, although Cologne getting relegated will not help!!

Yes. That's an understandable result of the Bundesliga having much bigger stadiums, in general, than the Premiership. And the fact that ticket prices are, I don't know, three times more expensive in England? And the fact that Germany has a population that is 60-70% bigger than England.

It would be interesting to see the comparison if English stadiums were of the same size as German stadiums and if German ticket prices were anything like as high as they are in England. I suspect that, in such circumstances, Premiership stadiums would have a far higher occupancy percentage than Bundesliga stadiums.

And if you look below the very top level of professional football, then you'll find that German attendances compare very unfavourably with England.

As to the bayer Arena, I think Kampflamm is right. Bayer are only a biggish club because of their owners, the Bayer pharmaceutical company. They probably do need a bigger stadium but not, at this stage, any more than 30,000. Maybe if they can consistently sell out their new capacity they can then think about increasing capacity further.

Yes. That's an understandable result of the Bundesliga having much bigger stadiums, in general, than the Premiership. And the fact that ticket prices are, I don't know, three times more expensive in England? And the fact that Germany has a population that is 60-70% bigger than England.

It would be interesting to see the comparison if English stadiums were of the same size as German stadiums and if German ticket prices were anything like as high as they are in England. I suspect that, in such circumstances, English stadiums would have a far higher occupancy percentage.

And if you look below the very top level of professional football, then you'll find that German attendances compare very unfavourably with England.

or maybe Germany just have better, more passionate supporters? Some the fan displays you see in Germany each week are superb and the games have great atmosphere. Most UK games these days have terrible atmosphere with fans just sitting watching the game and not even singing!!

Bundesliga 2 crowds have even gone up to an average of 13610, which is not bad. Right now, Germany are the Kings of crowds!!

or maybe Germany just have better, more passionate supporters?

Boring, bubomb.

I know that you're only trying to get a rise. My post was a valid response to your previous post but I'm not going to get into a pointless and petty argument with you. This is a discussion about the Bayer Arena. I realise that you find it impossible not to slip a sly dig about the English into every thread you infect and it's interesting that you've already broken your promise of only a few days ago.

But please try.

Boring, bubomb.

I know that you're only trying to get a rise. My post was a valid response to your previous post but I'm not going to get into a pointless and petty argument with you. This is a discussion about the Bayer Arena. I realise that you find it impossible not to slip a sly dig about the English into every thread you infect and it's interesting that you've already broken your promise of only a few days ago.

But please try.

It's nothing to do with England. You are one of these nationalistic people who simply cannot accept that another country can do something better than his own.

German crowds are better than Spain, Italy, England and every country in Europe. They are better than my own country, Scotland. You were the first one to take the subject off-topic by instantly trying to defend England the moment someone says that German crowds are the best. So you have broken your promise.

I only mentioned England because English crowds are the next ones below Germany. If Spanish crowds were second then I would of said Spanish crowds and not English crowds. But I bet a Spaniard wouldn't of instantly appeared trying to talk up Spain!!

You are so predictable!! It would be better if you simply stuck to English stadiums as you always turn European threads into 'England this, England that'. This might come as a shock to you, but some people aren't interested in England, or Scotland for that matter!!

It's nothing to do with England. You are one of these nationalistic people who simply cannot accept that another country can do something better than his own.

German crowds are better than Spain, Italy, England and every country in Europe. They are better than my own country, Scotland. You were the first one to take the subject off-topic by instantly trying to defend England the moment someone says that German crowds are the best. So you have broken your promise.

I only mentioned England because English crowds are the next ones below Germany. If Spanish crowds were second then I would of said Spanish crowds and not English crowds. But I bet a Spaniard wouldn't of instantly appeared trying to talk up Spain!!

You are so predictable!!

Yawn.

The Bayer Arena....?

Yawn.

The Bayer Arena....?

I was talking to 'Checker' about German attendances. Feel free to join in if you can resist the urge to talk about England.

Will 30000 be enough for Bayer, or is 40000 a better option. If it is the latter then would a new stadium be a better bet?

I was talking to 'checker about' German attendances. Feel free to join in if you can resist the urge to talk about England.

Yawn.

The Bayer Arena....?

Bayern fans are situated behind both goals, so this is very unlikely to happen... ;)

Normally there shouldn't be any fences, except the standard 1m thing, because officially no standing places are sold for international events. But the supporters prefer standing (which is good for atmosphere). Maybe they'll reduce the size of the fence after the WC when the officials and police relax a bit...

Yawn.

The Bayer Arena....?

Its called the Bayarena.

Whats your problem? Most stadiums in Germany have got sponsorship names these days.

btw. the club is called: Bayer Leverkusen

not a big deal imo

^^ Sure, but why are there fences in munich when everywhere else there arent?

those fences are uselss in international competitions. All you would have to do is to place some security personel in front of the stands.

Its called the Bayarena.

Whats your problem? Most stadiums in Germany have got sponsorship names these days.

btw. the club is called: Bayer Leverkusen

not a big deal imo

Eh?

What are you talking about?

I know that the club is called Bayer Leverkusen and I have no problem with the stadium having a sponsorship name.

You must have me confused with someone else!

Bayern fans are situated behind both goals, so this is very unlikely to happen... ;)

Normally there shouldn't be any fences, except the standard 1m thing, because officially no standing places are sold for international events. But the supporters prefer standing (which is good for atmosphere). Maybe they'll reduce the size of the fence after the WC when the officials and police relax a bit...

Oliver Khan is one of my all time favourite keepers -

http://www.nexus.ao/sports/fotos/dia/oliver1.jpg

Its called the Bayarena.

Whats your problem? Most stadiums in Germany have got sponsorship names these days.

btw. the club is called: Bayer Leverkusen

not a big deal imo

Checker - there is a slight language confusion here.

Yawn.

The Bayer Arena....?

what this means is that JimB is referring that I am boring and that I should talk about the BayArena, which he wrongly called the 'The Bayer Arena'. Don't expect JimB to explain that to you though, as obviously his German will be perfect!!

Don't expect JimB to explain that to you though, as obviously his German will be perfect!!

Yawn.

Try to stick to topic. The Bayarena....?

Its obvious that bayer need an expansion in the attendance charts they are third from bottom of the bundesliga and there is no way anyone can say their the third worst team

Only just noticed how shallow the AOL-Arenas' lower tier is, it's almost as bad as Emirates Stadiums'.

I also just noticed how boring Allianz Arena is on the inside. just a generic bland bowl with bland grey seats, it's really not that good.

Is Stuttgart finished by the way? any pictures of that last remaining stand, Stadionwelt doesn't have any new ones

Didn't see that one picture of the other Stuttgart stand on the previous page, my bad

Only just noticed how shallow the AOL-Arenas' lower tier is, it's almost as bad as Emirates Stadiums'.

I also just noticed how boring Allianz Arena is on the inside. just a generic bland bowl with bland grey seats, it's really not that good.

Is Stuttgart finished by the way? any pictures of that last remaining stand, Stadionwelt doesn't have any new ones

Eh??

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/west_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/west_03.jpg

http://www.sehen.de/downloads/presse/medienservice/0504/050531_2_KGS_Allianz-Arena.jpg

http://www.ib-opatz.de/xtra/exkarlibua/exkarl_img/preop/w/050519w-HPIM5917.JPG

http://www.ib-opatz.de/xtra/exkarlibua/exkarl_img/preop/w/050519w-HPIM5909.JPG

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album189/DSC02513.jpg

http://www.southcn.com/sports/nfs/moment/200505310808_1025869.JPG

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/saison20052006/liga_1/270.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/saison20052006/liga_1/140_fcbff.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/saison20052006/liga_1/150_fcbff.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/saison20052006/liga_1/160_fcbff.jpg

http://www.ua-football.com/images/photo/allianz-arena/allianz-arena07.jpg

http://twoday.net/static/mcsilent/images/allianz%20arena%2009.jpg

I also just noticed how boring Allianz Arena is on the inside. just a generic bland bowl with bland grey seats, it's really not that good.

Well, since the Coliseum all stadiums have more or less been "generic bland blows". The Allianz Arena isn't that generic though. If you look at the 3rd tier you'll notice a bit of a swoop.

And would you rather have those colored seats that have been put into some Portguese stadiums to hide low attendance figures?

Eh??

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/west_05.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/west_03.jpg

http://www.sehen.de/downloads/presse/medienservice/0504/050531_2_KGS_Allianz-Arena.jpg

http://www.ib-opatz.de/xtra/exkarlibua/exkarl_img/preop/w/050519w-HPIM5917.JPG

http://www.ib-opatz.de/xtra/exkarlibua/exkarl_img/preop/w/050519w-HPIM5909.JPG

http://www.1fck.de/albums/album189/DSC02513.jpg

http://www.southcn.com/sports/nfs/moment/200505310808_1025869.JPG

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/saison20052006/liga_1/270.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/saison20052006/liga_1/140_fcbff.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/saison20052006/liga_1/150_fcbff.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_fans/templates/fanfotos_fussball/deutschland/fc_bayern_muenchen/saison20052006/liga_1/160_fcbff.jpg

http://www.ua-football.com/images/photo/allianz-arena/allianz-arena07.jpg

http://twoday.net/static/mcsilent/images/allianz%20arena%2009.jpg

ah sorry, I meant the AWD-Arena, i always get them two mixed up, and just cause the Bayern fans are colourful doesn't detract from the fact it is just very boring

Kampflamm, I certainly wouldn't mind that, at least it would look a bit more exciting, I don't know why everyone raves on about that stadium, it's not that good

I don't know why everyone raves on about that stadium, it's not that good

Does that mean it is one of the decent ones or one of the extremely poor ones?

Does that mean it is one of the decent ones or one of the extremly poor ones?

It must be one of the "extremely poor" ones. Possibly the worst stadium in the Milky Way. Even worse than Shawfield Stadium -


http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/schottland/shawfield/120.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/schottland/shawfield/160.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/schottland/shawfield/140.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/schottland/shawfield/130.jpg

Purely on looks I'd personally take Berlin ahead of the AA.

I agree with this.

I've always loved the Berlin Olympic Stadium.

I have been debating with myself as to which I think is my faver Germany stadium.

I think the AA and Berlin Olympic Stadium are tied for first place in my mind.

Only just noticed how shallow the AOL-Arenas' lower tier is, it's almost as bad as Emirates Stadiums'.

I also just noticed how boring Allianz Arena is on the inside. just a generic bland bowl with bland grey seats, it's really not that good.

Is Stuttgart finished by the way? any pictures of that last remaining stand, Stadionwelt doesn't have any new ones

I know this isn't the Arsenal thread, but.....

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/innen_05.jpg
http://www.**************************/emirates/images/image005.jpg

Kind of worryingly similar!

anyway, back to the thread,

I lurve the steep monster stand at Kaiserslautern! and this stadium in general.
Nuremburg and Stuttgart are dog's dinners
The rest are VERY impressive, and very photogenic, except Dortmund, which all though not pretty like Berlin or AA, is gonna be an awesome venue!
For me though, and after reading the info on this thread, Leipzig is my fav, just for its audacious concept, fantastic!

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/luft_01.jpg
http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/innen_27.jpg

ah sorry, I meant the AWD-Arena, i always get them two mixed up

Part of the AWD-Arena was built a fairly long time ago (west stand...or whatever it might be called in English). As you can see in these pics, the new stand is much steeper than the old one.

Old stand is the one with the AWD-Arena writing on the seats

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/hannover/images/innen_33.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/hannover/images/innen_04.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/hannover/images/innen_22.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/awd_arena/20030417/160.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/neubau/fotos/awd_arena/20030630/110.jpg

New stand has red seats

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/hannover/images/innen_19.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/hannover/images/innen_29.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/hannover/images/innen_03.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/hannover/images/innen_31.jpg

I guess the areas in between couldn't be that steep because it would look somewhat akward.

A lot depends on the photo. These ones show the gradient much more clearly -

http://www.directnews.de/servlets/LoadBinaryServlet/848845/Arena.jpg

http://www.sektion-berlin.de/ontour/hannoi-sge/1.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/innen_02.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hannover_96/images/innen_03.jpg


Nice photo -

http://www.9staedte.de/sehenswertes/bilder/hannover/Hannover_f.jpg

The old West Stand was heavily refurbished, although the basic structure is still the same.

It is important to remember though that the reason why they didn't knock it down as well was that it wasn't all that old.