It is amazing how quickly we accept from BIAL, what we curse HAL for. An airport has to meet demand. Mr. Brunner, admits to capacity being full during peak hours. Now he wants traffic spread to other hours. That was the very situation at HAL.

I has raised this very point in my article "Flying at a time of BIAL convenience, not yours" http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com/2008/04/flying-at-time-of-bias-convenience-not.html.

It is hard to accept spending so many resources, just to replace one airport, with another, with similar peak hour limitations.

http://www.livemint.com/2008/07/07215122/Bial-will-break-even-in-5-year.html

Bial will break even in 5 years if allowed to charge user fee
There is nothing called annual capacity. Peak-hour capacity (is what matters).
Venkatesha Babu
Bangalore: Seventeen years after it was conceived, the Bengaluru International Airport became operational on the night of 24-25 May after several delays. From the day of its launch, the airport has been in the news mainly for the wrong reasons, from complaints over poor connectivity to inadequate toilet facilities. This, however, doesn’t seem to faze Albert Brunner, the soft-spoken chief executive officer of airport operator Bangalore International Airport Ltd (Bial), who has been leading the project since 2002. In an interview with Mint, Brunner responds to the criticism and controversy surrounding Bial. Edited excerpts:
Can you give us an overview of where things stand today?
We opened on the 24th of May. Whereas the first flight was perfectly fine, the first day was a disaster. We had teething problems in two areas, operation-related and infrastructure-related.
People waited for 20 minutes for the staircase to attach to the aircraft. I would be fuming if it had happened to me. They had to wait for 40 minutes for baggage, another reason to get angry. Then you had to wait for one hour to get a taxi. The reason (was that) the service provider did not get the licence for taxis. When we opened we had 89 taxis, now we have 800 taxis.
You see, the cumulation of all these things gave us a bad name. I do not want to look for excuses, we have to solve it, but most of it was not under our control. Still, we were the one to take responsibility. Infrastructure-wise, we don’t have enough toilets, we had underestimated—the layouts were bad. We have now increased the number of toilets, added area wise 45%.
When people had to get out, we needed staircases and bridge or bags to be brought out, it was the responsiblity of the ground handler who is the service provider. Unfortunately, many of the airlines wanted to do the ground handling themselves. And for a long period, they had not signed the contract with the ground handlers. At a very late stage, they said to the ground handlers: “you do it”. But neither they had trained personnel nor equipment.
Why bad blood between you and Kingfisher Airlines?
Kingfisher has always said that they want to make Bangalore their operational base. And (Kingfisher owner Vijay) Mallya has requested for additional facilities. When they complained about the problems in the first two days, they complained in a very professional way, whatever they said was very justified. And we really solved it in a professional way. In view of this, I can’t understand the bad remarks from Mallya about us. Because he has the least reasons to speak like that. He asked for a lounge, we have given him that, he has a Kingfisher bar there. Whatever he requested, we have given him. He wanted space for office, we have given it. But they are yet to begin work on it. I personally do not understand why he made such remarks.
We have offered him whatever he wanted—office space, MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul facility). The first time he came to the airport, he may have expected a much bigger airport, which is grand. But we have always said we do not want to build a status symbol, we want a functional airport; whenever the need arises, we can increase the size. Maybe he was disappointed...
Comparison with GMR Hyderabad International Airport Ltd, which built a bigger facility relatively more smoothly?
We wanted construction of the airport (to take off) in 2002. We could begin construction around mid-2005, the time we wanted to open the airport! During the same time we had unprecedented gowth in aviation, because we had a proactive civil aviation minister who opened the skies. They allowed new airlines.
Our promoters were disappointed with the slow progress... It would have been impossible for us to go to the board to tell them that we will be building a bigger airport and we need to redesign. Nobody would invest one additional rupee for that—they never knew whether we would succeed or not. I made a new traffic study and went to the board for additional money. We had two choices—either we stop and redesign, which will result in further delay or begin construction and during construction, try as much as possible to expand the airport without delaying the opening. We increased the scope of our contractors by 70% without delaying the opening date. We went from Rs1,412 crore to Rs1,930 crore and finally we had to increase (the cost) to Rs2,470 crore because of delays.
Hyderabad, which was two or three years behind us, were carefully watching. They even copied our concession agreement and it is not a joke.
It is said within a year Bial will get full in terms of handling capacity...
(Interrupts)... It makes me angry. Even the ministry speaks about annual capacity. There is nothing called annual capacity. Peak-hour capacity (is what matters). We don’t have peak hour for 24 hours.
If airlines want to operate, when the slots are full between 6 and 8, we ask them to come the next hour and we have space. You spread the peaks over the day, if you could do that over 24 hours, then our capacity would be 24 million.
What are the indications on the past one month in terms of traffic?
Presently, we get a feeling that there is a slowdown. It may be a seasonal slowdown, it is a slow season now. But we should see how it grows. Let us assume that we have an increase of 15%, then next year we may have around 11.5-12 million, this we can handle, another 10% we can handle, then it will be a bit tight.
But for two-three years down the line, infrastructure building has to start now. Right ?
We started our planning process around nine months ago. We know, we need the second runway by 2012-13, if we continue to grow as we grow now. We need a second terminal at the same time, four years from now. Next week we’ll go to the board and give the preliminary information and three months from now, we’ll give a concrete proposal.
Is the additional investment linked to valuation and divestment of stake as there has been talk of Bial being valued at $2.5 billion (Rs10,775 crore) or more?
Fact is that we do not have revenues from domestic passengers. User development fee (UDF) is the backbone of our revenue and 80% of traffic is domestic and we don’t have revenue (from domestic traffic) for the first three months. Therefore, there is a certain reluctance (on the part of our investors for additional investment).
None of them have, however, said I am not interested in infusing additional money. None of them have ever said we (have to) go public for funding. I give you my word it has never been discussed. It could be a solution because it is cheaper than borrowing from banks but (it is only one of the solutions being considered).
What is the investment for an intermediate terminal?
We are thinking whether we need to build a functional terminal or a slightly bigger shell that can accommodate more people. It is being considered. Building should be below Rs100 crore and the apron expansion should be more... that would mean an investment of another Rs200-300 crore at least.
There is apprehension that the project is goldplated and you have not opened the books completely.
We are completely transparent. There are two representatives of Karnataka and government of India and the books are open to them.
Feeling among investors?
Initially we projected break-even in seven-and-a-half years. However, since then we had to make more investment but we also have more passengers. If we could charge the UDF, we will break even in five years. As I told you before, we need to invest further. Really, it is the (capital) appreciation of the airport, not the revenue, that makes (this project) more interesting for the investor.
Airlines are bleeding. Your outlook? Seen any cancellation of short-haul flights ?
Airlines are our customers. They are in a tight position, GoAir and Paramount have suspended one flight each. We have no indication of a slowdown for the winter schedule. In September, we will get a clear indication.
Arguments in favour of keeping the short-haul flights from the old airport and indemnifying Bial for those losses. Comments.
I feel sorry that they still come up with those arguments. You can indemnify our loss but in the long run, it is the loss of the city. The city will lose out having a strong airport and an opportunity to attract lot of international airlines and make it stronger. Airlines are already losing money. They will also lose money by (spending on) additional resources in two airports.
K. Raghu contributed to this interview.

Jeeezz. Can you atleast change the title of your thread. The appropriate title for this thread should be "BIAL vs HAL"

There was a reason why the previous BIAL thread was closed and if you want to start a new thread for your propoganda purposes atleast come up with an original name. "Bengaluru International Airport (BIAL) Part 2 " ? C'mon

I believe the right place for HAL opening posts is another post titled appropriately or in chaibar :) Please keep this thread exclusively for developments related to BIAL and do not discuss HAL here. Thanks !!!

Devesh,

The original BIAL thread was shut down because the discussion was getting digressed from actual BIAL development news. I am not sure why you decided to start a new sequel thread by calling it a "Part 2" and started off
with ur usual BIAL thrashing.

Since you have already started the new thread now, can you atleast limit the use to only BIAL development discussions and not for your constant anti-BIAL posts. If you want to use this thread for "anti-BIAL & open-HAL" purposes, then please rename the thread appropriately

Do we need multiple BIAL threads in the same section?

I believe the right place for HAL opening posts is another post titled appropriately or in chaibar :) Please keep this thread exclusively for developments related to BIAL and do not discuss HAL here. Thanks !!!

I second that! Please let us keep this thread to report only BIAL development news. We could merge the picture thread of BIA back in here and move any discussion on HAL opening/BIAL bashing/name calling to the Chaibar section with an appropriate title.

Some of us have been involved in creating these threads at the begining of the project more than 3 years ago. We have been following every development since then and carefully updating for such a long period of time. Sad to see the thread turned into anti-BIAL discussion/opinion thread.

Can you keep your expert opinions to chaibar thread, and not mix with development news for which this thread is intended for?

Good to see the forum continued here, Devesh.

BIAL is inaugarated and there is absolutely no development happening in BIAL now. What do you expect us to discuss on BIAL development now?

The issue is development of Bangalore airports in which BIAL is one and HAL is the other. Just because of an invalid contract , BIAL forced HAL shutdown doesnot mean it is going to remain as such forever. Hence it is very pertinent to discuss development issues related to both BIAL and HAL in this forum.If you cannot grasp what it means, check out what Houston airport system in the city of Houston is.

Oopps....previous mail from mine was reply to ragussc.

BIAL is inaugarated and there is absolutely no development happening in BIAL now. What do you expect us to discuss on BIAL development now?

The issue is development of Bangalore airports in which BIAL is one and HAL is the other. Just because of an invalid contract , BIAL forced HAL shutdown doesnot mean it is going to remain as such forever. Hence it is very pertinent to discuss development issues related to both BIAL and HAL in this forum.If you cannot grasp what it means, check out what Houston airport system in the city of Houston is.

Sir,The HAL airport is closed for good now.Let it remain closed.You just didnt wake up in March and realise that HAL was shutting down was it?.If you are really desperate to only fly out of HAL,suggest you join the IAF.:)

BIAL is inaugarated and there is absolutely no development happening in BIAL now.
Blind man think no light in universe

What do you expect us to discuss on BIAL development now?
"us" = thus far just aout 3 people on this forum ?. Previous thread was a joy to many people discussing developments happenning and to happen, but was hijacked for different purpose. Obviously overwhelming majority view had and has no value to some.

Just because of an invalid contract
Oh the law expert who has superceded the courts of our land !(who have already have affirmed the validity of the contract) .

BIAL forced HAL shutdown

How did that happen, we had an elected government - Oh myGod, BIAL runs our government?!!. Hang on!, forced to shut down againt the wishes of whom?- oh i see now, against the wishes of an elitist minority and slothful 'public sector employees' (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/India-paying-too-much-to-state-employees-Study/332891/).

doesnot mean it is going to remain as such forever.
I encourage you to dream on if that makes you happy.

Check out what Houston airport system in the city of Houston is.

What is Houston airport system?.

We wanted construction of the airport (to take off) in 2002. We could begin construction around mid-2005, the time we wanted to open the airport! During the same time we had unprecedented gowth in aviation, because we had a proactive civil aviation minister who opened the skies. They allowed new airlines.
Our promoters were disappointed with the slow progress... It would have been impossible for us to go to the board to tell them that we will be building a bigger airport and we need to redesign. Nobody would invest one additional rupee for that—they never knew whether we would succeed or not. I made a new traffic study and went to the board for additional money. We had two choices—either we stop and redesign, which will result in further delay or begin construction and during construction, try as much as possible to expand the airport without delaying the opening. We increased the scope of our contractors by 70% without delaying the opening date. We went from Rs1,412 crore to Rs1,930 crore and finally we had to increase (the cost) to Rs2,470 crore because of delays.

I has raised this very point in my article "Flying at a time of BIAL convenience, not yours" http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com/2008/04/flying-at-time-of-bias-convenience-not.html.



Thats some vital information...shouldn't we be discussing this?

For all of you who did not bother to READ, but rather saw what you wanted, I re-post my original comment

It is amazing how quickly we accept from BIAL, what we curse HAL for. An airport has to meet demand. Mr. Brunner, admits to capacity being full during peak hours. Now he wants traffic spread to other hours. That was the very situation at HAL.

I has raised this very point in my article "Flying at a time of BIAL convenience, not yours" http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com/20...ience-not.html.

It is hard to accept spending so many resources, just to replace one airport, with another, with similar peak hour limitations.

So before taking off on some tangent, I suggest you "nay-sayers" take the time to read my article, and then put forth an explanation, why are we spending so much resource for an airport with similar constraints ? and more importantly, how do you propose to get BIAL to meet our needs.

I do not believe that SSC is only here to glorify BIAL regardless. Are we not entitled to question the squander of our resources ?

May of you may not care how your tax Rupees are spent, but I sure do.

We wanted construction of the airport (to take off) in 2002. We could begin construction around mid-2005, the time we wanted to open the airport! During the same time we had unprecedented gowth in aviation, because we had a proactive civil aviation minister who opened the skies. They allowed new airlines.
Our promoters were disappointed with the slow progress... It would have been impossible for us to go to the board to tell them that we will be building a bigger airport and we need to redesign. Nobody would invest one additional rupee for that—they never knew whether we would succeed or not. I made a new traffic study and went to the board for additional money. We had two choices—either we stop and redesign, which will result in further delay or begin construction and during construction, try as much as possible to expand the airport without delaying the opening. We increased the scope of our contractors by 70% without delaying the opening date. We went from Rs1,412 crore to Rs1,930 crore and finally we had to increase (the cost) to Rs2,470 crore because of delays.

2Paise, your post contained the above - please could you mention who said that and also give the source for that. Thx.

2Paise, your post contained the above - please could you mention who said that and also give the source for that. Thx.

First post of this thread:lol:

May of you may not care how your tax Rupees are spent, but I sure do.

Devesh,
It is said, when we point our one finger towards others, there are 3 fingers pointing towards you.

The questions to ask is,
1. What is AAI doing in BIAL? What is its role so far in BIAL? Does it has any guts to refute BIAL on its goofs (if any?) I don't know about others, but I know their (AAI) salaries and perks to attend BIAL board meetings are met by my contribution to the government. Leave alone transparency, they do not even bother to answer the questions citizens put through RTI. We are given a 2 line answers. Did we ever dare asking these question to AAI babu (we claim good rapport with them on our claim of expertise). Friendship is not just asking good info, it is more about asking the difficult questions that others may not ask. Forcing them to see their follies and correct the course

2. Isn't it time to ask questions to GOK for its role in BIAL, its failure to deliver the promised connectivity and their participation for a decent airport facility? Why are we so afraid of government and its babus? Is the fear of business loss and difficulties if not in good books? and yet we claim we care for Bangalore?

We dare and love to shoot private stake holders of BIAL with all the guns and ammunitions, but we just chicken out when its time for holding GOK and GOI responsible for their role in failing the citizens of Bangalore.

Devesh, unless you and me get the GOK and GOI to task, we are at the mercy of Mr. Brunner and his team. We can keep on doling all the metrics and data to prove how sub-standard is BIAL? We can keep filing on filing PIL for " Open HAL" and petition Election commission to dent BIAL to the possible extent. Even if the BIAL is just like HAL in all aspects, the sins of public participation can not be forgiven. If we do not want to take on these public representatives' lets not rant about being responsible citizen, we care for B'lore etc. Lets set our house in order before we venture onto others.

First post of this thread:lol:

Thanks for making it easier! :D.
Have seen many many quotes of entire articles from Devesh, Genial Giant etc and mostly they were stressing the same thing and so recently dont read too much of that, and so i happenned overlook the first before i asked you (first post it may be, but by definition/name of the thread it is a continuation of the previous thread, right?).
I think its time i took a leaf out of the strategy book of relentless BIAL bashers and for a change blame my oversight on their often monotonous one track posts, at least this once!! :lol: . Just joking(not really ridiculing anybody there).

May of you may not care how your tax Rupees are spent, but I sure do.

Mr Devesh, do you think the money went to Cayman Islands, Bahamas, Monaco, Switzerland or something like that ?- would be interesting to know.

If the money did not go to the investors's secret accounts, then where else?. Corruption- right?.

I dont think you have in your entire life never given money as corruption to get something done. And did you love giving it?- i suppose not. Its a common widespread phenomenon that touches every nook and corner and person of our country- right??. So if you should be fair to BIAL you should fight this as a systemic problem - right. Then why make only a hue and cry when BIAL was forced into a similar situation?. (treating a problem for what it is is the right spirit- treating a systemic problem as an isolated problem does not make sense).

Then what about the delays from the Govt?- how much loss do you reckon that caused to BIAL over 7 plus years?.

I think to be fair you must take into account all factors - if you do not, then its simply just a name sake argument, an eyewash which will never give a fair result. You still can discuss all those factors- whats stopping you from discussing the thus far hush hush matters?- you are a powerful person in Bangalore(by ur position in the BCIC)- why dont you take the lead in investigating where the money went and keep us updated every day on this blog and also ask others over here for their ideas and input?- that will prove by action that you do care about people's' collective tax money- do take the lead.

I end by saying that since you complain continually about our money being wasted - you must take the lead in finding out where the money went, sincerely exploring ALL avenues. If the money went to the pockets of the investors themselves, that can be traced to bank accounts. But if the money went not to the investors but to a handful of corrupt politicians then you must endeavour to find that out- question is will you be willing to persue the politicians?. Its not very difficult to find out that money cannot be accounted for- but thats not enough- IF YOU WANT TO START, THEN YOU MUST FINISH the process by finding the recepients. (i dont see any other way money could have disappeared- if there is, then pls do tell all of us). The core of the problem you cite here is corruption in my opinion- if you refuse to discuss this wrt to BIA in detail then logically it would appear that your complaints are not a really serious and completely honest exercise- its would appear to be simply beating around the bush. However if you wish to take up the issue in detail- then i am sure you would get commendations from everybody.

My guess? - you will not do this fruitful exercise which answers your question because it would get highly inconvenient for you - and yet you will continue superficial and unimpartial BIAL bashing unmindful the core reasons.

Devesh,
It is said, when we point our one finger towards others, there are 3 fingers pointing towards you.

The questions to ask is,
1. What is AAI doing in BIAL? What is its role so far in BIAL? Does it has any guts to refute BIAL on its goofs (if any?) I don't know about others, but I know their (AAI) salaries and perks to attend BIAL board meetings are met by my contribution to the government. Leave alone transparency, they do not even bother to answer the questions citizens put through RTI. We are given a 2 line answers. Did we ever dare asking these question to AAI babu (we claim good rapport with them on our claim of expertise). Friendship is not just asking good info, it is more about asking the difficult questions that others may not ask. Forcing them to see their follies and correct the course

2. Isn't it time to ask questions to GOK for its role in BIAL, its failure to deliver the promised connectivity and their participation for a decent airport facility? Why are we so afraid of government and its babus? Is the fear of business loss and difficulties if not in good books? and yet we claim we care for Bangalore?

We dare and love to shoot private stake holders of BIAL with all the guns and ammunitions, but we just chicken out when its time for holding GOK and GOI responsible for their role in failing the citizens of Bangalore.

Devesh, unless you and me get the GOK and GOI to task, we are at the mercy of Mr. Brunner and his team. We can keep on doling all the metrics and data to prove how sub-standard is BIAL? We can keep filing on filing PIL for " Open HAL" and petition Election commission to dent BIAL to the possible extent. Even if the BIAL is just like HAL in all aspects, the sins of public participation can not be forgiven. If we do not want to take on these public representatives' lets not rant about being responsible citizen, we care for B'lore etc. Lets set our house in order before we venture onto others.

Well said Syed.

In this convuluted scenario, AAI is like Trimurthi. One face is, AAI the regulator. Another face is, AAI the service provider/vendor of CNS-ATM to BIAL, third face is, AAI the investor, in BIAL.

What face should we question. And question, we should. Has anyone on SSC filed an RTI demanding a copy of the AAI assessment report of BIAL ?

We should also realise that BIAL is a P-P-P. We are 1 of those P's. It is OUR land and resources that are being diverted, and in this partnership, it is WE who must be vigilant of OUR rights.

I am pointing all 20 digits at BIAL, GoI, and GoK included. The GoK has an airport committee headed by no less than the Chief Secretary. I have requested the Chamber to request participation, so that views of us users can also be incorporated. If the "babus" resist, I am sure an RTI for the minutes of those meetings will get us good insight.

I am not sure, how many SSC members are aware of this. BIAL demanded 25% of the Vayu Vajra ticket fares from BMTC as a "permission fee" to let them use the airport. BMTC management said, "okay, but we will print on the ticket that 25% of this fare is being given to BIAL". Promptly the demand was dropped, and along with it all cooperation. Today, BMTC has to send water from town every morning to provide for its staff at the airport. It also has to send sweepers, since BIAL cleans the rest of the parking lot, except the BMTC bus stands. Even today. BMTC is not allowed to distribute pamphlets at the central information kiosk about the VV service. What is the limit of commercialism and profit ?

The GoK has spent over Rs. 1500 Cr on connectivity till date, and will probably spend another Rs. 5000 Cr. 6,500 Cr., for a Rs. 2,500 Cr., airport. I am not denying the need one bit, but given the fact that these are precious resources that are being diverted away from other equally needed infrastructure projects, do you not feel that it is incumbent on us to raise the question -- "Are we getting good value for our money" ? Should we not be asking this question from ALL the stakeholders at BIAL.

See this quote in the interview
We wanted construction of the airport (to take off) in 2002. We could begin construction around mid-2005, the time we wanted to open the airport! During the same time we had unprecedented gowth in aviation, because we had a proactive civil aviation minister who opened the skies. They allowed new airlines.
Our promoters were disappointed with the slow progress... It would have been impossible for us to go to the board to tell them that we will be building a bigger airport and we need to redesign. Nobody would invest one additional rupee for that—they never knew whether we would succeed or not. I made a new traffic study and went to the board for additional money. We had two choices—either we stop and redesign, which will result in further delay or begin construction and during construction, try as much as possible to expand the airport without delaying the opening. We increased the scope of our contractors by 70% without delaying the opening date. We went from Rs1,412 crore to Rs1,930 crore and finally we had to increase (the cost) to Rs2,470 crore because of delays.
BIAL management on the ground knows the realities, but their promoters have forced BIAL, to force on to Bangalore an airport below capacity. Should this not concern to all of us Bangaloreans on the attitude and power of the investors ? Mind you, these investors have brought in only about Rs. 350 Cr. The rest is MONEY FROM INDIA, either in the form of loans or grants. My pride in India, refuses to let me believe, we are so bankrupt, that we should sell our soul for two bits of silver.

Another part Fact is that we do not have revenues from domestic passengers. User development fee (UDF) is the backbone of our revenue and 80% of traffic is domestic and we don’t have revenue (from domestic traffic) for the first three months. Therefore, there is a certain reluctance (on the part of our investors for additional investment)

This nation, and all us, have given 4000+ acres to BIAL to compensate them. Does this signal the BIAL investors (primarily Siemens) are planning to "earn-back" the airport within 5 years on our UDF, and then rake in obscene profits on the real-estate ? Admittedly, our administration and politicians have signed a very lop-sided agreement, but globally today, corporations practice Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) for a reason.

There are other issues in the interview that raises my eyebrows :

1. Why is the break-even period reduced from 7.5 years to 5 years ?
2. What is the typical break-even period for an infrastructure project of 30 years ?

I am a right winger, and strongly believe in market forces, but not abuse to this degree.

PIL, is just one armament in our arsenal, the other is RTI, and the third one, which the past governments have learnt, is the ballot.

But ultimately, the strongest weapon, is the harsh glare of inspection raised by grass-roots awareness, that hurts the most, and that is my goal.

If SSC members start questioning ALL the stakeholders at BIAL, which includes GoI and GoK, may be some of these outrageous mistakes will get corrected.

As the ad says ...... "Jaago Grahak Jaago".

Another Brunner interview

Mr Albert Brunner, CEO, Bangalore International Airport Project (http://www.indiainfoline.com/news/showleader.asp?storyId=654&lmn=1)

As the ad says ...... "Jaago Grahak Jaago".

You are acting like a socialist in a capitalist environment.

BIAL is inaugarated and there is absolutely no development happening in BIAL now. What do you expect us to discuss on BIAL development now?
.

Maybe people are interested in terminal expansion, second phase, airport city,etc. Did you ever think about that?
The world does not revolve around you. pal!

Maybe people are interested in terminal expansion, second phase, airport city,etc. Did you ever think about that?

Oh Raichen !, how could you be so naive?, of course he thought about all that and has even stated that in at least one of his posts. But how can that be developmental activity in his dictionary?- It does not help reopen HAL !!.

In this convuluted scenario, AAI is like Trimurthi. One face is, AAI the regulator. Another face is, AAI the service provider/vendor of CNS-ATM to BIAL, third face is, AAI the investor, in BIAL.

What face should we question. And question, we should. Has anyone on SSC filed an RTI demanding a copy of the AAI assessment report of BIAL ?



Devesh, why is that we need to file an RTI for the info. Isn't the responsibility of your/our good friend AAI to publish that info for the public? Aren't they are being paid and pampered from my and your contributions? Why are we being forced to do something that is Public entities are required to do? It is like new govt convening the publicity mela at IISc to boast about their political misgovernance and inefficiencies of our Babus.

I am not denying the need one bit, but given the fact that these are precious resources that are being diverted away from other equally needed infrastructure projects, do you not feel that it is incumbent on us to raise the question -- "Are we getting good value for our money" ? Should we not be asking this question from ALL the stakeholders at BIAL..

This is exactly what I have been asking caretaking citizens like you. Who should you start with first? Your representative or the private particiaptor? Has that been done? Have we questioned GOK? Have we highlighted the bunglings by AAI in any forum? Did we ever talked to AAI babus on such claimed/alleged shortcomings in BIAL? Did we ever found out the truth about delay in connectivity? Has any been taken to task? Has any babu been booked for negligence?

Why are we not spread heading the campaign to know the truth from our 'P's? Sorry to become personal, but I am yet to see an line/sentence uttered against all these our public entities. Why is such scare and Babu friendly?

Do you think RTI will provide all the answers. If that was the case I would have got the answers to all my 23 questions in RTI appllication to AAI. Next time if you have chance to meet with AAI top brass, pls do ask about my RTI applications.

Syed

For all of you who did not bother to READ, but rather saw what you wanted, I re-post my original comment


So before taking off on some tangent, I suggest you "nay-sayers" take the time to read my article, and then put forth an explanation, why are we spending so much resource for an airport with similar constraints ? and more importantly, how do you propose to get BIAL to meet our needs.

I do not believe that SSC is only here to glorify BIAL regardless. Are we not entitled to question the squander of our resources ?

May of you may not care how your tax Rupees are spent, but I sure do.

Hi Devesh:

For the sake of transparency - Are you making any money out of that blog through AdSense or any other way that we should know of?

So before taking off on some tangent, I suggest you "nay-sayers" take the time to read my article, and then put forth an explanation.

Devesh,

Before you point fingers at others here in SSC, I suggest you look at yourself.

I am sure everyone here were reading you articles earlier, but now it is very obvious what you are upto.

All you have done is posted anti-BIAL articles using unofficial reports, distorted facts and lies to fulfill your ulterior motives. Not only that, you have been posting the same articles in various other forums like SSC, praja, your blogs and whatnot.. , so that you can carry on with your propaganda brigade all across the board.

Did you not care when your tax Rupees were filling the politicians pockets during other infrastructure projects? Where were you then? I haven't seen you criticizing them? Looks like BIAL hit close to home

I do not believe that SSC is only here to glorify BIAL regardless. Are we not entitled to question the squander of our resources ?


From what I have seen recently, SSC has been exclusively used by lobbyist for their anti-BIAL campaign



May of you may not care how your tax Rupees are spent, but I sure do.

Really?. Then why don't you do something meaningful about it?
Lodge an official complaint against BIAL, file a lawsuit, or do something thats productive, instead of venting out your frustrations here in SSC and other forums

Mr Devesh, You complain people dont read articles you want them to.
That webpage you have posted more than once on old BIAL thread of SSC if am right- and people have read it i assume- at least i read it then. And by the way we also discussed this. So why are you blaming people for not reading it i wonder?.

So whats the problem?- you claim runway was the problem with BIAL, others contended it was not. You were given examples of why it was not a problem - either side has a right to their own perrogative on it, and i dont see 'achievement of better operational efficiency by spreading out into more hours' as a problem. Again and again you say the same old thing(nothing new)- why is it you are doing so?.

You say spreading into more hours is what HAL was doing, as if due to this BIA is a new HAL - well i say Heathrow and Gatwick are doing the same thing, so should i call BIA a new Heathrow?. You are using SELECTIVE similarities to sully unnecessarily. If you wear a saree do you become a woman?.

Detail: BIA spreads into more hours until a time when the runway can take more than 30 flights per hour - i.e, it goes to 35 and then to 40 flights per hour at some point of time in future. Thats called operational efficiency which is the need of the times with all the modern technoogy we have. By then we will have the 2nd runway.

Brunner has said that the existing runway can handle 20 million passengers a year, compared with the 12.5 million expected in the first year of operations - i believe what he says.
Also- second runway takes 2 years at international standards of construction i thought. But your April blog article says 2-3 years minimum - you are inflating the time.

Some people point to one or two world airports that started with 2 runways and huge fancy terminals- but these people conveniently do not mention how much they had actually spent in making the airport(billion plus $) and that the fact that they did not lose so much in corruption.

From what I have seen recently, SSC has been exclusively used by lobbyist for their anti-BIAL campaign




Really?. Then why don't you do something meaningful about it?
Lodge an official complaint against BIAL, file a lawsuit, or do something thats productive, instead of venting out your frustrations here in SSC and other forums

I gave him my suggestion(in quotes below)- but i am not sure if he is really interested or serious in getting to the bottom of it - remains to be seen.

Mr Devesh, do you think the money went to Cayman Islands, Bahamas, Monaco, Switzerland or something like that ?- would be interesting to know.

If the money did not go to the investors's secret accounts, then where else?. Corruption- right?.

I dont think you have in your entire life never given money as corruption to get something done. And did you love giving it?- i suppose not. Its a common widespread phenomenon that touches every nook and corner and person of our country- right??. So if you should be fair to BIAL you should fight this as a systemic problem - right. Then why make only a hue and cry when BIAL was forced into a similar situation?. (treating a problem for what it is is the right spirit- treating a systemic problem as an isolated problem does not make sense).

Then what about the delays from the Govt?- how much loss do you reckon that caused to BIAL over 7 plus years?.

I think to be fair you must take into account all factors - if you do not, then its simply just a name sake argument, an eyewash which will never give a fair result. You still can discuss all those factors- whats stopping you from discussing the thus far hush hush matters?- you are a powerful person in Bangalore(by ur position in the BCIC)- why dont you take the lead in investigating where the money went and keep us updated every day on this blog and also ask others over here for their ideas and input?- that will prove by action that you do care about people's' collective tax money- do take the lead.

I end by saying that since you complain continually about our money being wasted - you must take the lead in finding out where the money went, sincerely exploring ALL avenues. If the money went to the pockets of the investors themselves, that can be traced to bank accounts. But if the money went not to the investors but to a handful of corrupt politicians then you must endeavour to find that out- question is will you be willing to persue the politicians?. Its not very difficult to find out that money cannot be accounted for- but thats not enough- IF YOU WANT TO START, THEN YOU MUST FINISH the process by finding the recepients. (i dont see any other way money could have disappeared- if there is, then pls do tell all of us). The core of the problem you cite here is corruption in my opinion- if you refuse to discuss this wrt to BIA in detail then logically it would appear that your complaints are not a really serious and completely honest exercise- its would appear to be simply beating around the bush. However if you wish to take up the issue in detail- then i am sure you would get commendations from everybody.

My guess? - you will not do this fruitful exercise which answers your question because it would get highly inconvenient for you - and yet you will continue superficial and unimpartial BIAL bashing unmindful the core reasons.

I am not sure, how many SSC members are aware of this. BIAL demanded 25% of the Vayu Vajra ticket fares from BMTC as a "permission fee" to let them use the airport. BMTC management said, "okay, but we will print on the ticket that 25% of this fare is being given to BIAL". Promptly the demand was dropped, and along with it all cooperation. Today, BMTC has to send water from town every morning to provide for its staff at the airport. It also has to send sweepers, since BIAL cleans the rest of the parking lot, except the BMTC bus stands. Even today. BMTC is not allowed to distribute pamphlets at the central information kiosk about the VV service. What is the limit of commercialism and profit ?



Interesting! In Hyderabad, the Aeroexpress bus service is run by GHIAL and not by the city or state.

i dont see 'achievement of better operational efficiency by spreading out into more hours' as a problem.

I strongly disagree.

Most of domestic fliers want to travel during peak time i.e. 6-9am in morning and 5-9pm in evening so as to reach their destination beginning and return after office hours. Airlines increase their number of flights in these times based on passenger demand and not airport operator's convenience. If an airport is congested during peak time, that is as good as the airport has reached its saturation point and has started affecting economic growth of the city.


Two runways are badly needed for a fast growing city like Bangalore whereas BIAL has only one runway.This is a gross mistake committed by BIAL in teh first place. It is in this context that HAL re-opening is brought into picture whereby additional flights can be run during peaktimes thereby aiding the economic growth of Bangalore.

All you have done is posted anti-BIAL articles using unofficial reports, distorted facts and lies to fulfill your ulterior motives. Not only that, you have been posting the same articles in various other forums like SSC, praja, your blogs and whatnot.. , so that you can carry on with your propaganda brigade all across the board.



I dont see anything wrong in pointing out mistakes of BIAL by Devesh.
Even after pointing out that Bangalore aviation traffic growth is much higher, BIAL consortium chose to build an airport with lower capacity. Why are you not questioning BIAL for that grave mistake?



Did you not care when your tax Rupees were filling the politicians pockets during other infrastructure projects? Where were you then? I haven't seen you criticizing them? Looks like BIAL hit close to home


Unlike other Government projects, BIAL was opened with grand expectations by a world class promoter building a world class airport and by forcibly shutting down existing HAL airport. Evenutally it is found out now by AAI itself that BIAL capacity is only 8% more than HAL airport. If these things doesnot enrage you (any other citizen will get enraged), definitely there is something you are trying to protect BIAL for some unknown reasons.

You are acting like a socialist in a capitalist environment.

Nope. Just an alert consumer in a highly capitalist environment.

In the bastion of capitalism, the only magazine I have seen that does not have advertising, and flourishes on subscriptions, is Consumer Reports. I am sure SSC members based in the US will confirm the standing of this magazine.

Devesh, unless you and me get the GOK and GOI to task, we are at the mercy of Mr. Brunner and his team. We can keep on doling all the metrics and data to prove how sub-standard is BIAL? We can keep filing on filing PIL for " Open HAL" and petition Election commission to dent BIAL to the possible extent. Even if the BIAL is just like HAL in all aspects, the sins of public participation can not be forgiven. If we do not want to take on these public representatives' lets not rant about being responsible citizen, we care for B'lore etc. Lets set our house in order before we venture onto others.


Syed, Nobody is interested in speaking against BIAL without reason as you are mentioning here. AAI study reports are going to be presented to the Centre soon and let us wait till then.

But our request to BIAL is to keep its damn hands off HAL airport. If public wants HAL airport re-opened because of some problems with using BIAL, either BIAL should try to rectify it and satisfy the public or keep mum on HAL airport re-opening till they rectify. What we see is BIAL seems caring more to want HAL airport shut forcibly forever and take the public for a ride by its dismal capacity and facilities in its airport. Such a disgusting attitude by BIAL is not going to be tolerated by the public and government anymore.

Hi Devesh:

For the sake of transparency - Are you making any money out of that blog through AdSense or any other way that we should know of?

Till date I have "earned" a gross total of $2.38 from the blog, which is not yet encashed. If it ever will, all of it will be donated. As a Rotarian, I strongly believe in and practice social responsibility both corporate and social.

I do not have any ads on the blog now. The 100% donation will continue even if I re-introduce ads.

MP for consultation on new airport
BS Reporter / Chennai/ Bangalore June 24, 2008, 0:29 IST

Member of Parliament Rajeev Chandrasekhar has written to Chief Minister B S Yeddyurappa on the Bengaluru Airport calling for an open and transparent public consultation on the issue of Bengaluru Airport.

It can be recalled that Rajeev Chandrasekhar was among the citizens to advocate against the closure of the HAL airport.

In his earlier letters to the Civil Aviation Ministry Chandrasekhar contended the point of the city having two airports. He had urged the ministry to have public interest as the single most important criterion whilst taking decisions.


In his letter to the CM, Chandrasekhar has sought an open and transparent review of BIAL's claim that its significant investments need a monopoly to ensure financial returns on this large investment.


"If a commercial contract comes in the way of public interest being served, it is important for us to examine in detail the background of the commercial contract and see how it can be unwound with no prejudice to the investors. Infrastructure is in too short supply in our country and too precious for us to be looking at shutting down and closing infrastructure in the name of viability of one," he put forth his views.

"We should address the viability of the new investment in other ways. I would urge that the shareholders of BIAL, namely Zurich Airport, L&T, Siemens be true stakeholders in our city and come forward on their own and demonstrate sensitivity to the needs and aspirations of Bengalureans and I would strongly caution against insisting on its monopoly and windfall profits. This is an unsustainable stand by any investor or corporate in a modern city like ours and will amount to seriously wronging the people of this city and State and will naturally have the consequent repercussions which should be avoided," he added.

More at
http://bsl.co.in/common/news_article.php?tab=r&autono=326890&subLeft=1&leftnm=3

THE HINDU
BUSINESS LINE

HAL airport: Centre may seek more time to get back to HC
Ashwini Phadnis


New Delhi, July 8 A decision on whether the HAL airport in Bangalore should be reopened is likely to get delayed with the Centre planning to approach the Karnataka High Court seeking more time to reply on the matter.

The court had sought the reply of the Centre by July 18, but the thinking is that it would be better to seek some more time from the court rather than give a hurried representation.

“The Centre is seeking the official view of the State on its stand on the issue. Besides, the report of the Airports Authority of India (AAI) on whether there was a capacity constraint at the new airport, which could be sorted out by reopening HAL airport, is also being examined.

The demand for keeping both the airports open has come from several quarters, including citizen groups and Parliamentarians.

In March this year, the report of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Transport, Tourism and Culture on the closure of Bangalore and Hyderabad airports had strongly suggested that the existing airports in the two cities be kept open for commercial operations.


More at
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/07/09/stories/2008070951641000.htm

Sir,The HAL airport is closed for good now.Let it remain closed.You just didnt wake up in March and realise that HAL was shutting down was it?.If you are really desperate to only fly out of HAL,suggest you join the IAF.:)

Though HAL airport is closed, you might be knowing that the public and state government wants HAL to be re-opened. It is only a minority of people who want BIAL monopoly.

We expected the new BIAL to have sufficient capacity to meet the traffic with world class tag. But instead we are seeing a lower class airport. Definitely, both the parties are bound to abide by the contract. By providing a similar sized airport as HAL, BIAL has failed to meet the capacity needs of Bangalore.

Public wants HAL to reopen for short haul domestic flights badly for cost and time reasons.

Previous thread was a joy to many people discussing developments happenning and to happen, but was hijacked for different purpose. Obviously overwhelming majority view had and has no value to some.


Developments happening in BIAL:ohno: oh, as usual you are joking about that temporary cowshed like LCC terminal BIAL was talking about.

Good luck, buddy you use BIAL and allow me to use HAL:) Remember courtesy begets courtesy. And Let us depart in peace.

Right place for this topic :D

why isn't a separate thread for "Open HAL" opened yet ?

Right place for this topic :D

why isn't a separate thread for "Open HAL" opened yet ?


Was wondering what happened to this thread. It looked like we had hit the "circuit breaker" and trading ( of accusations) had been suspended. I am glad that trading has resumed.

Sorry, I am mixing my metaphors. have been keenly watching the stock market!

Nope. Just an alert consumer in a highly capitalist environment.

In the bastion of capitalism, the only magazine I have seen that does not have advertising, and flourishes on subscriptions, is Consumer Reports. I am sure SSC members based in the US will confirm the standing of this magazine.


Consumer Union (publisher of Consumer Reports) is a non-profit organization, so you think BIAL or any other airport can flourish being a non-profit organization? Maybe you and your buddies from electronic city & biocon should donate Rs 2500cr to BIAL and make it a non-profit entity.

Though HAL airport is closed, you might be knowing that the public and state government wants HAL to be re-opened. It is only a minority of people who want BIAL monopoly.



mpvp,

You have said several times that "the people" want HAL re-opened. Knowing you, I know you will not make such assertions without access to statistically significant data collected in a systematic manner. So, why don't you let us see these studies as well. I think we can make good progress in this discourse with this kind of data. We can quickly put an end to all the name calling as well.

All I have are small samples of data that I have collected by talking to my extended network of Indian and international business contacts. The data I have contradicts your conclusions. Clearly, my sample is statistically irrelevant.

Again, on the state government's stand. All the reading I have done points to their position not being unequivocal on re-opening HAL airport. In fact the latest report that I read this morning (either in the Hindu or the Business Line, I cannot recollect) seems to suggest that state government has no clear position at all and are contemplating asking the HC for more time so that the state AG can formulate a position. I could have mis-read this.

If these things doesnot enrage you (any other citizen will get enraged), definitely there is something you are trying to protect BIAL for some unknown reasons.

Yep, I am on BIAL's payroll. As a matter of fact I wanted to work for your gang (i,e open-HAL), but BIAL offered me extra $$ for every BIAL-licking comment that I will post here. Now, how can I resist that? Maybe Devesh & you should switch sides, there is more money here and you can recoup some of your lost taxes :lol:

Sorry for the joke. Don't take it personally

Yep, I am on BIAL's payroll. As a matter of fact I wanted to work for your gang (i,e open-HAL), but BIAL offered me extra $$ for every

Darn, you actually managed to put yourself on their payroll? You are clearly a better salesman than I am. I have to work on a commission basis -- I get a certain % of the UDF they collect from people that I brainwashed into flying out of BIAL.

Darn, you actually managed to put yourself on their payroll? You are clearly a better salesman than I am. I have to work on a commission basis -- I get a certain % of the UDF they collect from people that I brainwashed into flying out of BIAL.

What?You get a % of the UDF? I want that % of the UDF too. Maybe its time for me to re-negotiate with Mr.Brunner. Morover my responsibilities have increased drastically. Now I have to spend time in praja.in also, not just SSC

This thread has nearly 50 posts now and none of them related to BIAL's development. So here's a start;

snippet from;

http://www.indiainfoline.com/news/showleader.asp?storyId=654&lmn=1


The airport’s design and planning have a lot in store for future expansion. Could you give us an idea about the same?
The Master Plan of the Bengaluru International Airport has been developed to fulfill the need for an operationally efficient and passenger friendly airport for Bangalore. It ensures that the size and capacity of the airport facilities can be gradually expanded based on the passenger and cargo growth.

The Master Plan not only includes provision of premium land for commercial real estate developments such as office parks, retail, entertainment and hospitality but also land reserve for a rail link to the city. The intention of BIAL to develop an Airport City is in line with the increasing attention being paid to ‘Aerotropolises’ globally.

Please elaborate on Aerotropolises.
An Aerotropolis is a city in which the layout, infrastructure and economy are centered around a major airport. Experts in the field are of the opinion that Airports will shape business location and urban development in this century as much as seaports did in the 18th century, railroads did in the 19th century and highways in the 20th century.

We envision the airport city to be a flourishing destination in itself; people will not only come here to take flights but also to relax, do business and shop. It will provide growth giving a strong impact on economy and creation of jobs.

Looks like all the recent hoopla about BIAL trying to raise $200 million for expansion by seeking a valuation of $2.5 bn are not true at all

snippet from Brunner's interview


Brief us on the latest ownership pattern of the airport. Any stake sale etc in the near future? Reports mentioned about BIAL seeking a valuation of up to $2.5 billion to raise about $200 million in equity to fund the second phase of the airport’s development. Could you give us more details.
Bangalore International Airport Limited (BIAL) is Public limited company under Indian Companies Act formed to design, build, own and operate the greenfield private sectorowned and operated airport in India. Private promoters hold a 74% stake in BIAL while the state holds the remaining 26%.

The shareholding is as follows:
Karnataka State Investment & Industrial Development Corporation – 13%, Airport Authority of India – 13%. Siemens Projects Ventures – 40%, Larsen and Toubro – 17% and Unique Zurich Airport – 17%.

Of the total cost of Rs24.70bn, 16% is equity investment, 14% is state support from GOK, 65% is debt and the remaining 5% is internal accruals or security deposits.
It is important to understand here that the state had set aside a certain amount for this project. Hence, the equity contribution by the private players had to accordingly be in the shareholding ratio, keeping the state investment amount in mind.

Regarding reports mentioned about BIAL seeking a valuation of up to $2.5 billion to raise about $200 million in equity to fund the second phase of the airport’s development, I would like to reiterate that this is not true. There have not been any talks in this regard between the shareholders.

This thread has nearly 50 posts now and none of them related to BIAL's development. So here's a start;

snippet from;

http://www.indiainfoline.com/news/showleader.asp?storyId=654&lmn=1


Interesting. The landing charges at BIAL is infact lower than HAL.
Are all the negative articles about BIAL being a blood sucking vulture ,just a smoke screen?

...........I get a certain % of the UDF they collect from people that I brainwashed into flying out of BIAL.

vvr,
Man, you beat all of us in the discourse.

Syed

Developments happening in BIAL:ohno: oh, as usual you are joking about that temporary cowshed like LCC terminal BIAL was talking about.

Good luck, buddy you use BIAL and allow me to use HAL:) Remember courtesy begets courtesy. And Let us depart in peace.

Not very surprising that for a self proclaimed Commie like you - the only developmental acivity WRT to BIAL would be "reopening HAL" .

Oh come on now, its the majority that decides whether HAL will be opened - not just me. It will not be reopened just because some elitist IT honchos, Public sector employees, and only a handful of the people living near HAL want it open to cause the overall public great inconvenience- will of overall public is supreme. Its a democracy and its the will of the majority - and i will surely exercise my right to keep the HAL closed. As to calling BIAL a cowshed i dont care if cou call it a cow shed or pig sty- please yourself.

As to joke about what you say i have every right to - juts like you have every right to daydream HAL will reopen.

hey guys .. what i was really looking here was for pics.. but unfortunately i cudn't find any..

^^^^ Look in the Airports and aviation section : there is an exclusive photo thread, and also a thread which is now closed, but has lots of pictures. Enjoy! :)

Yes, BIAL has forced under capacity airport on Bangalore. I think awareness about how BIAL kept people in dark capacity should be spread. Considering current Oil prices & future oil prices because of war against Iran, no body would like to spend money Airline/Airline infrastructure.


How come GMR was able to build airport with almost 50-60 % extra capacity? Who did capacity study for GMR? Devesh can you get some details on this?

BMTC service detail were not given importance in BIAL's web site. I havent seen the airport. Is there any sign boards about Volvo service in arrival section?

It seems BIAL wants force usage of expensive taxi's on airport users. I suppose they get a cut from taxi operators.

mpvp,

Again, on the state government's stand. All the reading I have done points to their position not being unequivocal on re-opening HAL airport. In fact the latest report that I read this morning (either in the Hindu or the Business Line, I cannot recollect) seems to suggest that state government has no clear position at all and are contemplating asking the HC for more time so that the state AG can formulate a position. I could have mis-read this.


Please check news report below:

Karnataka Govt for re-opening HAL airport

Our Bureau

Bangalore, June 20

The three-week-old Yeddyurappa Government in Karnataka favours two airports for Bangalore and will urge the Centre to re-open the HAL airport for short hauls, according to the Minister for IT & Biotechnology, Mr Katta Subramanya Naidu.

Many cities have multiple airports and the industry in Bangalore also wanted this, he said. By reopening the HAL airport, flying from the city to Hyderabad, Chennai and Thiruvananthapuram would be easier, he said. The new airport could handle longer and international trips.

http://www.blonnet.com/2008/06/21/stories/2008062152072100.htm

mpvp,

You have said several times that "the people" want HAL re-opened. Knowing you, I know you will not make such assertions without access to statistically significant data collected in a systematic manner. So, why don't you let us see these studies as well. I think we can make good progress in this discourse with this kind of data. We can quickly put an end to all the name calling as well.


Please check below news report:

BUSINESS STANDARD


Air passengers don`t want HAL airport to die, finds Feedback survey
BS Reporter / Chennai/ Bangalore March 19, 2008

A majority of the air passengers want the HAL airport to be kept open even if the new international airport opens on May 11, according to a survey.

Conducted between February 26 and March 1 by city-based Feedback Consulting to map the opinion of air passengers about the closure of the HAL airport, the survey reveals that 81.3 per cent of the total respondents (1,148) strongly agree that existing airport needs to be kept open since connectivity to the new airport is not yet in place.

Since the new airport is located at distance of 26 km from the city centre, air passengers need well over one hour during peak hours to reach it via the existing National Highway (Bangalore-Hyderabad). The government has planned a dedicated rail link to the new airport, which is expected to become operational only by 2011. Consequently, the demand for retaining the HAL airport is raging



http://www.business-standard.com/common/news_article.php?leftnm=10&bKeyFlag=BO&autono=317322

Not very surprising that for a self proclaimed Commie like you -


Commie.. How did u come to that conclusion? Clearly exposes your analytical skills. Being a businessman myself, I am unable to digest how can I be simultaneously a commie too?



Oh come on now, its the majority that decides whether HAL will be opened - not just me. It will not be reopened just because some elitist IT honchos, Public sector employees, and only a handful of the people living near HAL want it open to cause the overall public great inconvenience- will of overall public is supreme.

When the public, government. courts, parliamentarians, prominent citizens all are asking for HAL airport to reopen, you still keep on beating the same old drum on IT honchos, etc... Maybe you have such hatred for IT professionals, I dont have.

Gosh darn both VVR and Raichen have beaten everyone to the punch by currying favors with BIAL. It turns out, that I, through various connections and strings literally, managed to become the grand poohbah of the Govt of India decision makers, the original owners of HAL. And guess what, as grand poohbah, I declare that HAL be closed simply because of the childish motivations of certain believers. So that is it folks. HAL closed for commercial aviation. Only Netas and private (liquor?) barons with lots of moolah are allowed to flit back and forth from HAL. LCC be damned.

Please check below news report:

BUSINESS STANDARD


Air passengers don`t want HAL airport to die, finds Feedback survey
BS Reporter / Chennai/ Bangalore March 19, 2008

A majority of the air passengers want the HAL airport to be kept open even if the new international airport opens on May 11, according to a survey.

Conducted between February 26 and March 1 by city-based Feedback Consulting to map the opinion of air passengers about the closure of the HAL airport, the survey reveals that 81.3 per cent of the total respondents (1,148) strongly agree that existing airport needs to be kept open since connectivity to the new airport is not yet in place.

Since the new airport is located at distance of 26 km from the city centre, air passengers need well over one hour during peak hours to reach it via the existing National Highway (Bangalore-Hyderabad). The government has planned a dedicated rail link to the new airport, which is expected to become operational only by 2011. Consequently, the demand for retaining the HAL airport is raging



http://www.business-standard.com/common/news_article.php?leftnm=10&bKeyFlag=BO&autono=317322

mpvp,

Thanks for the link. That certainly helps.

Now, please do not get me wrong -- I am sure some very intelligent people managed this study. However, I have several issues with this.

Please let me explain my bonafides here (I hope I do not come across as being boastful and all knowing) because my background may be germane to the issues I raise. I ran the market research group for a very large division of Hewlett Packard in the US for several years and am intimately aware of various research techniques and their misuse and the misuse of statistics in general.

Here are my concerns:

1. It was done by Feedback Consulting whose Chairman Ravichandar has taken a very strong stand in favor of re-opening HAL airport. By his own admission, he felt compelled to take this position sometime in November of 2007. His organization then does this survey in late Feb/early March when he had already taken an intractable position on this issue. I find this troubling.

We used to have a few axioms in the market research business. One, always look for the information on the sponsor of a study before digesting the study's conclusions. Second, studies are frequently ordered to support/corroborate the belief of the person ordering it. In my market research career, I had to constantly battle to thwart such attempts. Third, examine carefully the precise wording and the ordering of the questions. This leads me to my second point.

2. What was the exact wording of the question that resulted in this outcome -- "the survey reveals that 81.3 per cent of the total respondents (1,148) strongly agree that existing airport needs to be kept open[/B] since connectivity to the new airport is not yet in place"? We now know that the words in bold are not true and therefore I would argue that the respondent had been biased about the access to the new airport. I could ask a question like this in a survey on HAL to get the result I am looking for -- "knowing that the path to the HAL departure area is knee deep in trash (partly untrue statement), would you like to fly out of this airport?".

3. It is important to look for the demographics of the sample. If the sample was biased towards a certain geographics area (such as people living in the Electronics City area), then the outcome is not surprising. All survey results are usually preceded by a description of the responding sample. Since we do not have this in the report, it is hard to draw any meaningful conclusions.

The validity of this survey notwithstanding, I have serious issues about seeming to play fast and loose with contractual agreements in the name of "the people". Wonder what leaders like Mohandas Pai would say if it was decided in the name of "the people" that the tax holiday given to IT companies be withdrawn. That is whole different issue, I suppose. By the way, I do not hate IT honchos, I am in this business myself!

Thanks again for the link.

Please check news report below:

Karnataka Govt for re-opening HAL airport

The three-week-old Yeddyurappa Government in Karnataka favours two airports for Bangalore and will urge the Centre to re-open the HAL airport for short hauls, according to the Minister for IT & Biotechnology, Mr Katta Subramanya Naidu.

http://www.blonnet.com/2008/06/21/stories/2008062152072100.htm

mpvp,

Thanks. I stand corrected. The GoK seems to have taken a stand but not the GoI. So, it is not entirely correct to say the government wants HAL re-opened.

Please check news report below:

Karnataka Govt for re-opening HAL airport

Our Bureau

Bangalore, June 20

The three-week-old Yeddyurappa Government in Karnataka favours two airports for Bangalore and will urge the Centre to re-open the HAL airport for short hauls, according to the Minister for IT & Biotechnology, Mr Katta Subramanya Naidu.

Many cities have multiple airports and the industry in Bangalore also wanted this, he said. By reopening the HAL airport, flying from the city to Hyderabad, Chennai and Thiruvananthapuram would be easier, he said. The new airport could handle longer and international trips.

http://www.blonnet.com/2008/06/21/stories/2008062152072100.htm

Friends Mr Yedyurappa said he wants to take Gujarat as the example. The foremost example from Gujarat is battling corruption and minimising corruption to the least. To get re-elected by development alone, you need to cross a threshold in development. If you encourage corruption then you cannot control 'how much the corruption will be' - its simply bound to spiral out of control and become full blown. If you cannot control corruption then you cannot achieve the desired threshold development mentioned above. So to compensate you start populist measures which is the bane of development - this is the opposite of what Modi is doing in Gujarat. What Modi would have done wrt to convincing people about BIA would be providing connectivity to BIA and building a reliable public tranbsport network(as qcikly as he has been doing everything else in Gujarat) - and so this shuts the mouths of the trouble makers who try to take advantage and their over inflated concerns becomes a non-issue.

Anybody, has corruption reduced even slightly or are there atleast signs of that - after Yediyurappa took office?.

Please check below news report:

BUSINESS STANDARD


Air passengers don`t want HAL airport to die, finds Feedback survey
BS Reporter / Chennai/ Bangalore March 19, 2008

A majority of the air passengers want the HAL airport to be kept open even if the new international airport opens on May 11, according to a survey.

Conducted between February 26 and March 1 by city-based Feedback Consulting to map the opinion of air passengers about the closure of the HAL airport, the survey reveals that 81.3 per cent of the total respondents (1,148) strongly agree that existing airport needs to be kept open since connectivity to the new airport is not yet in place.

Since the new airport is located at distance of 26 km from the city centre, air passengers need well over one hour during peak hours to reach it via the existing National Highway (Bangalore-Hyderabad). The government has planned a dedicated rail link to the new airport, which is expected to become operational only by 2011. Consequently, the demand for retaining the HAL airport is raging



http://www.business-standard.com/common/news_article.php?leftnm=10&bKeyFlag=BO&autono=317322

you have quoted an article that is very old and one that was published before the opening of new airport. i am sure a larger percentage of people who have travelled to new airport would agree that connectivity is not as bad as media projected. infact many have said that connectivity to bangalore airport is better than hyderabad.

i also love the convenience of hal airport even if airport itself was terrible. but the the point is there are commercial contracts - that hal airport would be closed as soon as bial is opened. if government is serious about opening hal, i am sure bial shareholders wouldn't mind if govt agrees to compensate them suitably, say by charging hal passengers an additional rs. 500 and passing this amount to bial. i am sure most passengers would care about that money - after all it is their company that foots the bill.

merits of reopening the hal airport should not be based on some parliamentarians or prominent citizens opinions. no court would listen to such arguments. it should be based on commerical terms that is agreeable to bial & govt & potential hal passengers.

Please check below news report:

BUSINESS STANDARD


Air passengers don`t want HAL airport to die, finds Feedback survey
BS Reporter / Chennai/ Bangalore March 19, 2008

A majority of the air passengers want the HAL airport to be kept open even if the new international airport opens on May 11, according to a survey.

Conducted between February 26 and March 1 by city-based Feedback Consulting to map the opinion of air passengers about the closure of the HAL airport, the survey reveals that 81.3 per cent of the total respondents (1,148) strongly agree that existing airport needs to be kept open since connectivity to the new airport is not yet in place.

Since the new airport is located at distance of 26 km from the city centre, air passengers need well over one hour during peak hours to reach it via the existing National Highway (Bangalore-Hyderabad). The government has planned a dedicated rail link to the new airport, which is expected to become operational only by 2011. Consequently, the demand for retaining the HAL airport is raging



http://www.business-standard.com/common/news_article.php?leftnm=10&bKeyFlag=BO&autono=317322

This is an absolute old report from March.

Did'nt you say that before the opening of BAIL, you were expecting BIAL to be a "world class" airport and now, you don't think it is. So if your perception about BIAL can change in 3 months, so can the feelings of lot of other Banglorean's about the re-opening of HAL

Far… but fetching (http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2008/07/11/stories/2008071150030100.htm)

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn150/2paise/2008071150030101.jpg

One can barely find a table in this dining area, making you wonder why all the four F&B outlets had to be bunched together in one place. You realise that it is in the small details of designing as well as its aesthetics and visual appeal that the Hyderabad airport scores over Bangalore. At Shamshabad, the F&B outlets are not only separated but also spread over a much larger area.

It seems, slowly, frequent fliers are getting used to the distance, and some rational thinking is sinking in; if we want world-class airports, we can’t expect them to come up — and that too over a sprawling 4,000-acre site — in our neighbourhood

Comparison with Hyderabad

Many others are comparing it with Hyderabad and the BIAL must be ruing the timing in operationalising the two airports; there is no doubt that the Hyderabad airport is more aesthetically designed.And when it comes to the cleaning and maintenance of something as crucial as the washrooms, it scores big marks.

But once the domestic carriers’ lounges for their Business Class passengers and Platinum, Gold and Silver members are ready, the sense of crowding that you get in the departure area will decrease as the premier passengers will do most of their waiting in the lounges.

Before some of you decide to pounce on me, i did'nt say anything this article did;

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2008/07/11/stories/2008071150030100.htm

>>mpvp
what is use of the lethargic HAL airport where we have to wait 1-1.5 hrs to get baggage, no place to sit (especially during late night intl departures/arrival.) If two intl flights arrive at same time, it is a total mess

We have to check in atleaset 1 hr before departure because of long security queue. Is n't waste of time

For people travelling to nearby SE/Middle east countries we have to travel via Bombay/Chennai. Is n't waste of time? (New airport has added more flights in its fisrt month)

This doesn't mean that everything is fine at BIAL. Atleast we can make them to address the issues. HAL airport may be good for people who stays nearby people who fly in morning & come back in the evening /night.

Parking mafia there at HAL robs people by charging 60 Rs. There is no gaurantee that you will get parking.

>>mpvp
what is use of the lethargic HAL airport where we have to wait 1-1.5 hrs to get baggage, no place to sit (especially during late night intl departures/arrival.) If two intl flights arrive at same time, it is a total mess

We have to check in atleaset 1 hr before departure because of long security queue. Is n't waste of time

For people travelling to nearby SE/Middle east countries we have to travel via Bombay/Chennai. Is n't waste of time? (New airport has added more flights in its fisrt month)

This doesn't mean that everything is fine at BIAL. Atleast we can make them to address the issues. HAL airport may be good for people who stays nearby people who fly in morning & come back in the evening /night.

Parking mafia there at HAL robs people by charging 60 Rs. There is no gaurantee that you will get parking.

I think you have mistaken. Nobody is asking for long haul international flights from HAL. Only point to point short haul flights are requested from HAL airport for obvious reasons.

I think you have mistaken. Nobody is asking for long haul international flights from HAL. Only point to point short haul flights are requested from HAL airport for obvious reasons.

I thought HAL is allowed to operate small aircrafts (< than 60 passengers) or is this still under negotiation?

Make Bangalore airport bigger, promoters told

Our Bureau

New Delhi, July 11 The Ministry of Civil Aviation has written to the promoters of the new airport in Bangalore pointing out that the project has to become bigger in size so as to handle the growing volume of passenger traffic.

A senior Government official told newspersons that the promoters of the new airport have been asked to create temporary capacity to look after the immediate passenger needs and also work on creating a “mirror image” of the existing passenger terminal to ensure that the handling capacity of the airport increases to meet future demand.

“The airport has been asked to create a mirror image of the existing terminal within the next three years. The size of the Bangalore airport has to be bigger,” the official added.

The project, which is being undertaken by a consortium that includes Siemens-Zurich Airport, L&T, Airports Authority of India (AAI) and Karnataka State Investment and Industrial Development Corporation began operations on May 24 this year.
bailout package for Air India

A Ministry official said that the issue of a liberal financial bailout package for Air India was discussed at the meeting that the Minister for Civil Aviation, Mr Praful Patel, had with the Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh, recently.

Meanwhile, the Ministry has no plans to restrict or stop issuing Non-Scheduled Operating Permits (NSOP) to companies for importing aircraft for operating non-scheduled flights despite there being cases of alleged duty evasion by some companies.
Norms eased

The Government had recently liberalised the NSOP norms, thereby allowing import of aircraft through this route after paying a marginal import duty as compared to what had to be paid earlier. In the recent past, the Customs department has sent notices and seized the aircraft of some companies, alleging evasion of duty.

“It is important to build the NSOP sector of aviation. The aircraft are not only used by some individuals but are also used to operate non-scheduled flights to places which help promote religious and other types of tourism.

“If there have been some aberrations, then it should be tackled by a different department. We are promoting a bigger concept,” Mr Patel said.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/07/12/stories/2008071252181000.htm

Atlast one post on some developments of BIAL :)

Make Bangalore airport bigger, promoters told

Our Bureau

New Delhi, July 11 The Ministry of Civil Aviation has written to the promoters of the new airport in Bangalore pointing out that the project has to become bigger in size so as to handle the growing volume of passenger traffic.

A senior Government official told newspersons that the promoters of the new airport have been asked to create temporary capacity to look after the immediate passenger needs and also work on creating a “mirror image” of the existing passenger terminal to ensure that the handling capacity of the airport increases to meet future demand.

“The airport has been asked to create a mirror image of the existing terminal within the next three years. The size of the Bangalore airport has to be bigger,” the official added.

The project, which is being undertaken by a consortium that includes Siemens-Zurich Airport, L&T, Airports Authority of India (AAI) and Karnataka State Investment and Industrial Development Corporation began operations on May 24 this year.
bailout package for Air India

A Ministry official said that the issue of a liberal financial bailout package for Air India was discussed at the meeting that the Minister for Civil Aviation, Mr Praful Patel, had with the Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh, recently.

........
....................[/url]

What are these stupid ministry people saying?- "mirror image in 3 years"?. Hope this does not send out the wrong signal to the promoters. They want to create more of the same terminal?(this doesnt appear to be the one to come alongside the existing terminal building)- why dont they ask for expansion but leave how it should be done to the promoters?- i thought the aim should be to have vertical separation in all future terminals.

What is hapenning here is- sadly BIAL got itself into a hole due to the corruption and political redtape of the past- and now because they are in a hole compared with HIAL, almost everybody seem to be taking potshots at them and making it very difficult for them to function. If they should listen to every fancy suggestion of every Tom, Dick and Harry of this nation and also the Govt- does anyone think its possible to implement all these varying demands?- in that case what about what BIAL's own desires in design and implementation?- if others run it for them, then why a consortium?.

I said that because the ministry has been making adhoc political statements now and then as it suited them wrt to BIA.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/12/stories/2008071258170100.htm


Road to international airport, or a veritable highway to hell?

Deepa Kurup and Divya Gandhi


Pedestrians have to scamper across, avoiding speeding vehicles

17 killed, 36 injured in five weeks on Bellary Road since the inauguration of international airport

Environmentalists say infrastructural lapses violate the National Urban Transport Policy


BANGALORE: Manjula (58) has sold fruits by the side of Bellary Road (National Highway No.7) for 18 years. She now talks of the other side of the road as if it were a different town: “People like me cannot cross the road carrying our goods and have to rely on autorickshaws to just get us across.”

She witnesses accidents at the Vidyanagar crossing every day. Not surprising, since the continuous stream of vehicles touches speeds of up to 150 kmph.


The police records reveal a staggering loss of life within just the first five weeks of the grand inauguration of the BIAL in Devanahalli: 17 people have been killed and 36 injured in 66 accidents.


“The signal-free concept is not feasible unless there is proper infrastructure for pedestrians, with skywalks and underpasses,” Praveen Sood, Additional Commissioner of Police (Traffic and Security), told The Hindu.


In the rush to ensure connectivity to the airport, the needs of pedestrians and residents of the area have been all but overlooked, said Mr. Sood.


This infrastructural oversight violates the National Urban Transport Policy which places the rights of people above motorists.

Leo Saldanha of the Environment Support Group wants criminal liability to be fixed on the authorities. “This should be planned before such a road is opened.”

Ok, so MPVP the Commie Businessman- happy?. Nature of Business? - Econiomic Hitman, Current target? - BIAL.
If you habitually lie its only natural you will get digestive and other problems - see a doctor.

Thank you Bial licker. I have no problems with your name calling commie business man. Well, you should be beware of digestive problems as too much licking of BIAL can be harmful for you.

Atlast one post on some developments of BIAL :)

Ya, what about my previous posting of news report showing local people getting killed on highways to BIAL?

I thought HAL is allowed to operate small aircrafts (< than 60 passengers) or is this still under negotiation?

The suggestion was put to BIAL by MoCA but alas BIA was as stubborn as ever and refused the suggestion outright.

mpvp,

Thanks. I stand corrected. The GoK seems to have taken a stand but not the GoI. So, it is not entirely correct to say the government wants HAL re-opened.

Earlier GoI through MoCA requested BIAL to re-consider its stand on allowing smaller aircraft from HAL, but BIAL refused to agree.

Both GoI and GoK are in favour of openinh HAL airport it is BIAL which is threatening by waving the concession agreement card.

Thank you Bial licker. I have no problems with your name calling commie business man. Well, you should be beware of digestive problems as too much licking of BIAL can be harmful for you.

I was only saying that 'you call yourself a Commie Businessman' - i did not call you that. so you accept that you conduct dirty commie business on this forum- good!.

I dont know what "licker" means i dont find it in the dictionary- but yes i support my country and its development and if i should be known a "licker" for that so be it.
Oh ya i am a "BIAL licker" ? and you an abominable Chinese agent, a traitor. How much do they pay you to hit Indian projects?- to slow down India's economy?.

>>mpvp
what is use of the lethargic HAL airport where we have to wait 1-1.5 hrs to get baggage, no place to sit (especially during late night intl departures/arrival.) If two intl flights arrive at same time, it is a total mess

We have to check in atleaset 1 hr before departure because of long security queue. Is n't waste of time


If HAL reopens, the traffic will be limited (due to sharing with BIAL) and hence there will be a dramatic improvement (due to less crowd) in its quality of service compared to its previous avatar when it was handling 10 million pax. Remember AAI has mentioned that HAL airport (both domestic and int'l) if used solely for domestic can handle 9 million pax straightway from Day 1.



For people travelling to nearby SE/Middle east countries we have to travel via Bombay/Chennai. Is n't waste of time? (New airport has added more flights in its fisrt month)


I didnot understand what you meant. Can you explain a bit more?



This doesn't mean that everything is fine at BIAL. Atleast we can make them to address the issues.

Who is going to bell the cat? BIAL has clearly said that it intends to use its airport for non-aviation purpose as well and I guess a good chunk of space will be allotted to such things. Whatever is left will be for aviation.

And when is BIAL going to start its second phase? Can anybody push them to change? It all depends on answers to these questions whether BIAL will serve us according to our needs or whether we have to get along with whatever BIAL gives us.

you have quoted an article that is very old and one that was published before the opening of new airport. i am sure a larger percentage of people who have travelled to new airport would agree that connectivity is not as bad as media projected. infact many have said that connectivity to bangalore airport is better than hyderabad.


It still is a fact that connectivity to BIAL is not as good as that to HAL.


merits of reopening the hal airport should not be based on some parliamentarians or prominent citizens opinions. no court would listen to such arguments. it should be based on commerical terms that is agreeable to bial & govt & potential hal passengers.

In a democracy, voices of public and parliamentarians are supreme. BIAL is a commercial operator entitled to its free running of airport operations at BIAL. Whether a commercial entity like BIAL can dictate on another airport needed or not in Bangalore for next 60 years is really questionable. I feel the decision power for another airport in the country should rest with the government and not some commercial private airport operator. That is precisely what the courts have to decide.

So if your perception about BIAL can change in 3 months, so an the feelings of lot of other Banglorean's about the re-opening of HAL

So what you mean? You want BIAL to continue like HAL and not as world class as everyone expected?

Remember BIAL was opened by closing down HAL. People in Bangalore are not seeing an airport for the first time in their life. They have been using a convenient middle class airport for decades and was expecting a world class airport at BIAL with world class connectivity. But what we got instead was another middle class airport at BIAL with third class connectivity and that too again by closing down the much convenient middle class airport at HAL.


BIAL did not shut down HAL- that is a big fat lie. That was a policy decisions of the Indian Government way back in 1991 itself- that is 10.5 years before the contract was awarded.

All these events have the potential of making a nice comedy show for all in the world to watch and enjoy.


When you are deep inside busy licking BIAL 24hrs a day, you tend to forget rest of world. The more you lick, the more kick you seem to get. And of course, you dont and never seem to care about the huge money put into HAL airport for past years and what a waste of tax payers money?

Tax payer's money wasted? tax payer's money is not wasted if HAL is shut down- a big portion of it will be used for its primary purpose of being a military airport and for HAL testing activity, and the remaining portion for developmental activities(amalls whatever) and this will only bring profits. you are acting as if it it was always a civilian airport- what a 2 faced liar.
"BIAL licker" am i?. You are licking China 24 hours a day trying to destroy Indian economy- why you traitor?. You care for tax payer's money you foreign agent?.
Read my reply to Devesh- http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=22356836&postcount=19.

You care about India?- LMAO- airports are shut down in every developed country of the world- thats is called a policy decision and a structural change keeping in line with modern needs and overall development- its difficult for your thickhead to get that in (to understand structural changes). We see people like you and ur stupid arguments in all the countries that are not developing- its selfish people like you who destroy countries.
Connecting 'retaining of buildings that have outlived their purpose' and 'taxpayer's money' is the habit of communists- they like to have 200 year old monuments- how many renowned economists support ur economic theory?.

World people are watching?- remember they are watching you as well :lol:- you might admire yourself but dont think everybody do.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The sum total of all ur postrs from march prove you have no logical thinking power at all(unless u are acting)- no point talking to you- you will just go about in circles. I am finished with you.

BIAL did not shut down HAL- that is a big fat lie. That was a policy decisions of the Indian Government way back in 1991 itself- that is 10.5 years before the contract was awarded.

Both GoI through MoCA and GoK have already requested BIAL to reconsider HAL opening early in 2008.

Karnataka high court and Supreme court have requested Government to re-negotatiate with BIAL to consider HAL opening early in 2008.

Central government has recently modified the aviation policy and removed the 150km no airport rule forever. This means any new airport can come up anywhere in the country and no existing airport will be closed in future for the sake of any new airport.

Thus, Only Bangalore and Hyderabad are left out because of the old policy and the concession agreement thereof.

In Hyderabad, it is not an issue because RGIA is capable of handling existing traffic very well. Hence Begumpet airport need not be re-opened. Whereas it is very clear that BIAL is short of capacity in handling existing traffic and the need for reopening HAL.

After all these requests, BIAL is still stubborn saying that HAL cannot be re-opened by threatening and waving the old concession agreement. Hence , it is clear that BIAL has forced HAL shutdown and still causing obstacles for HAL reopen.

Both GoI through MoCA and GoK have already requested BIAL to reconsider HAL opening early in 2008.

Karnataka high court and Supreme court have requested Government to re-negotatiate with BIAL to consider HAL opening early in 2008.

Central government has recently modified the aviation policy and removed the 150km no airport rule forever. This means any new airport can come up anywhere in the country and no existing airport will be closed in future for the sake of any new airport.

Thus, Only Bangalore and Hyderabad are left out because of the old policy and the concession agreement thereof.

In Hyderabad, it is not an issue because RGIA is capable of handling existing traffic very well. Hence Begumpet airport need not be re-opened. Whereas it is very clear that BIAL is short of capacity in handling existing traffic and the need for reopening HAL.

After all these requests, BIAL is still stubborn saying that HAL cannot be re-opened by threatening and waving the old concession agreement. Hence , it is clear that BIAL has forced HAL shutdown and still causing obstacles for HAL reopen.

If HAL is shut down and the consortium decides to leave(because they become bankrupt) - then the government has to give them a huge huge compensation which is from the public's tax money(this is just like bailing out Indian railways, or AAI as they have done before- from public's tax money). I dont want my tax money to be handed over by the Govt to BIAL- just because it happenned to go bust because you VERY FEW guys wanted to travel from HAL(very very few compared to all Bangaloreans). Why should all of India pay money for a handful of traveller's(not all air travellers) whims?.That is how much the stake is in BIA for people - this is also why people call BIA as "our" airport. Using an old building and machinery forever maybe your attitude, but henceforth the unused parts of HAL can be converted into profit making commercial ventures(mall or whatever) that generate money for the Govt to spend on other infrastructure - no more of out tax money should be spent on HAL.

The decision to shut down HAL was Bangalore specific. It was decided to shut down HAL 10.5 years before contract was awarded. So i am not forcing shut down of HAL. It was a Govt decision- however you twist, and what ever lies you speak, the truth is the Govt decided to shut down HAL long long long ago and you are speaking BS again about "Me trying to shut down HAL".

Indian Docs went to the UK on a promise by the UK Govt that they can settle down there. Later the Brown govt due to politically expeditious reasons decided to cancel that agreement in retrospective- in other words they decided to go back on their own promise. To people like you (based on your behavior now towards a legal contract based on which BIAL or TATA or whoever got the project and made the airport) it may seem fair to go back on the legal agreement made by the Govt to the docs- but the UK Court system nullified the Govt order that had earlier cancelled the permanent residency of the doctors, and thus reinstated their rights. To you it maybe just a legal agreement- but the legal system did all thiis(framed the laws) after much deliberation about the pros and cons- not at the drop of a hat. You have asked before(march/april) to somebody if he was against the Indian courts system- but now you yourself have not accepted the verdicts of the courts to not nullify the CA. It is lies that you say the courts supported reopening of HAL(in an earlier post)- courts dont give personal opinions- they(courts) adviced the litigants that maybe they can try this this and this(because the litigants wanted it) - never do they give personal opinions about the result of the case- they only give verdicts, and they have not given any favouring HAL in this case. If you still want to misinterpret the verdict- then instead ask the court officially what it meant- then people will believe you(we all read the news like you do- you are not superior in brains than anybody here to interpret better & different).

You cant blame BIAL or anybody in this country to this extreme extent without having some sort of proof- nobody is preventing you from investigating where the money went- but you are not interested in investigating but only in giving a verdict without any trial. If you can prove BIAL siphoned money into their personal accounts then prove it and throw them out- everybody will suppport you if you are successful. If they gave a very huge share of the project budget to politicians as bribe which you also do in small amounts every now and then- then dont blame BIAL- try to correct the system. If this is not logical to you- i wonder what is.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=22356836&postcount=19

If you decide not to talk about serious investigation and want to be biased- then please dont bother replying anything.

It still is a fact that connectivity to BIAL is not as good as that to HAL.

so? blame the karnataka govt for that.


In a democracy, voices of public and parliamentarians are supreme. BIAL is a commercial operator entitled to its free running of airport operations at BIAL. Whether a commercial entity like BIAL can dictate on another airport needed or not in Bangalore for next 60 years is really questionable. I feel the decision power for another airport in the country should rest with the government and not some commercial private airport operator. That is precisely what the courts have to decide.
you are being absurd. bial does not decide that. govt's have decided that and signed a contract that hal would be closed. if govt wants to renege, it should negotiate it on commercial terms by some means of compensation. they haven't does that. why? instead, they make statements to public as though it was not their fault and make gullible people like you to believe bial is at fault. how do you like it if you made financial investments and govt later wants to change rule to say investments you made would not be returned?

After all these requests, BIAL is still stubborn saying that HAL cannot be re-opened by threatening and waving the old concession agreement. Hence , it is clear that BIAL has forced HAL shutdown and still causing obstacles for HAL reopen.
what do you mean old agreement? way i understand is there are contracts and contracts are contracts and you abide by them. you may something personal against bial, but it is not going to help winning arguments.

>>Originally Posted by mpvp
>>It still is a fact that connectivity to BIAL is not as good as that to HAL

It depends on on which part of blore you live. Connectivity to BIAL is not bad as projected by media.

>>Originally Posted by Nag123
>>For people travelling to nearby SE/Middle east countries we have to travel via >>Bombay/Chennai. Is n't waste of time? (New airport has added more flights in its fisrt >>month)

>>I didnot understand what you meant. Can you explain a bit more?

For people travelling to Middle eastern countries/ South east asia (Gulf/Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia which has about 4-5 hrs flying time) there was not much choices available 1 year back because getting slot at HAL was difficult. People were forced to travel via Bombay/Chennai. After BIAL opening EK /SQ increased capacity, Oman Air started new service

some posts has been edited or deleted. I think we can have discussions about BIAL without people being called as "commies" or "idiot"

Yes please - discussions are getting offensively personal and disrespectful and so lose credibility. In these cases even facts are prone to being presented in a biased manner and sometimes altered to support an overtly fought debate.

Passionate discussions and debates are fine, desirable even, especially if it throws up valid points that can be considered either way. Points are valid me thinks if they hold fort as noteworthy even if presented to GOI/GOK or BIAL who are the concerned parties discussed here.

Name calling and personal instigation needs to stop if we are to salvage quality of this discussion thread.

Any child can use their power of speech irresponsibly by name calling - it is intended to hurt, disturb, and basically express that one has become personally disturbed.
It takes some amount of maturity/ wisedom to know how to refrain from succumbing to a tit-for-tat name calling spree and rather focussing on the issue. It takes a bit of practice but I am sure EVERYONE in this thread knows/ can lean how to do this.




Possible solution to help discourage this unproductive practice:

- If one party starts name calling - he can be firmly but politely requested to stop rather than being called another name by the target.
- If this goes on once too many a time, then the next request to stop can be accompanied by an alert to the moderator.
- If name calling or offensive post still continue perhaps the moderator can delete all those offensive posts. This would normally cool the hot headed one...
- If it still continues then I suppose the moderators will know the best action to take - withdrawing certain priveledges to the concered party etc...

If anyone has a different suggestion or a better idea do post it. We can make this thread more credible with a potential for legitimate people's participation on ground to make a difference in the real life scenario ...

Yes please - discussions are getting offensively personal and disrespectful and so lose credibility. In these cases even facts are prone to being presented in a biased manner and sometimes altered to support an overtly fought debate.

Passionate discussions and debates are fine, desirable even, especially if it throws up valid points that can be considered either way. Points are valid me thinks if they hold fort as noteworthy even if presented to GOI/GOK or BIAL who are the concerned parties discussed here.

Name calling and personal instigation needs to stop if we are to salvage quality of this discussion thread.

Any child can use their power of speech irresponsibly by name calling - it is intended to hurt, disturb, and basically express that one has become personally disturbed.
It takes some amount of maturity/ wisedom to know how to refrain from succumbing to a tit-for-tat name calling spree and rather focussing on the issue. It takes a bit of practice but I am sure EVERYONE in this thread knows/ can lean how to do this.




Possible solution to help discourage this unproductive practice:

- If one party starts name calling - he can be firmly but politely requested to stop rather than being called another name by the target.
- If this goes on once too many a time, then the next request to stop can be accompanied by an alert to the moderator.
- If name calling or offensive post still continue perhaps the moderator can delete all those offensive posts. This would normally cool the hot headed one...
- If it still continues then I suppose the moderators will know the best action to take - withdrawing certain priveledges to the concered party etc...

If anyone has a different suggestion or a better idea do post it. We can make this thread more credible with a potential for legitimate people's participation on ground to make a difference in the real life scenario ...

The system should ensure continued provocation is not there. If someone (the one who started the name calling process) complained to the moderator, then i feel the moderator should look ino the whole process which will go back many messages- of course its a painful process for the moderator- but when a complaint is looked into there is no other go - oversight here could lead to a one sided result, and this might lead to encouragement of the provacateur to continue abusing.

Let me come to abuse now:
If the name that is called is blatant or unfounded with no proper substance then that's name calling. If bad words like b*****d etc (words that are agreed to be banned as a well defined procedure) are used, then that is name calling. If a person acts stupid to the core and still indulges in name calling - then its not entirely inappropriate to call him stupid or idiot - that simply put is true and exact description(and allowed wherever appropriate on discussion blogs worldwide- only if clear cut unabmbiguous rules are violated is action taken) . No bad word was used.
If a person is a SELF professed leftist and has gotten into a full blown discussion on socialism and had professed his allegiance to it - then naturally he is a leftist or a communist. Then later if the same person poses to be a capitalist for expeditious reasons and also indulges in name calling, then there is no reason to not call that person a communist or socialist or leftist which he really is - they are not foul words- they describe the act. No bad word was used.
But for political correctness and on the complaint of the perpetrator, if advice is given to the person comlianed against - not to call perfectly valid and exact descriptive names(, descriptive only based on what the provacateur said of himself on this forum)- then i predict this will only encourage the one who started the unfounded name calling to continue the same and have a gala time doing it.
Moderation is a verdict and should not be a decision from the heart but from the mind alone (refer our own Supreme court's thoughts on this before delivering a verdict in a particular case - sometime in the last 1 year).
How many times has the he called BIAL licker?- is that valid i wonder- at the moment it seems so. Its not as if he called names out of control- he did it with a purpose- his purpose seems to have been achieved.

Then there could be the question what if the same thing is physical- should one react the way he is treated?- my answer is NO. Then you go to the law enforcement or law- what can i say thats how civilization works with regard to phsysical attack(its treated different different from verbal attack).

This is an absolute old report from March.

Did'nt you say that before the opening of BAIL, you were expecting BIAL to be a "world class" airport and now, you don't think it is. So if your perception about BIAL can change in 3 months, so can the feelings of lot of other Banglorean's about the re-opening of HAL

So what you mean? You want BIAL to continue like HAL and not as world class as everyone expected?


No, it means not all Bangloreans want HAL to re-open, so stop claiming that majority of bangaloreans want HAL to re-open. Its just a minority, and u are among them.

Ya, what about my previous posting of news report showing local people getting killed on highways to BIAL?

What does it have to do BIAL?

what do you mean old agreement? way i understand is there are contracts and contracts are contracts and you abide by them. you may something personal against bial, but it is not going to help winning arguments.

I agree with you contracts need to be honoured. But in this case, the contract seems to have been modified two times after signing. Does it mean that the contract is dishonoured? What do you say?

If HAL is shut down and the consortium decides to leave(because they become bankrupt) - then the government has to give them a huge huge compensation which is from the public's tax money(this is just like bailing out Indian railways, or AAI as they have done before- from public's tax money).


Perfectly agree with what you say. BIAL shouldnot go bankrupt because of HAL. But the situation is different from what you say. Actual air passenger traffic at Bangalore was 10.2 million in 2007-08 whereas BIAL projected 7 million pax in the same year. That means, Bangalore has 3million + traffic more than what BIAL expected.

Whereas many people have pointed out that BIAL capacity is less than 10million and cannot handle the huge passenger traffic growth in Bangalore.
Second phase expansion will take not less than 5 years and under this situation, it is mentioned to re-open HAL airport.


Using an old building and machinery forever maybe your attitude, but henceforth the unused parts of HAL can be converted into profit making commercial ventures(mall or whatever) that generate money for the Govt to spend on other infrastructure - no more of out tax money should be spent on HAL.



Please note HAL airport has been pumped with tax payers money to run commercial aircrafts like B747 etc. and terminals have been expanded in past. That means the infrastructure in HAL is not a small thing to wash hands off easily. And as for testing defence and HAL aircrafts, you dont need a B747 runway and airconditioned domestic/international terminals for that.

So. how do you justify closing down HAL airport when BIAL is incapable of handling passenger traffic growth in Bangalore at world class levels?



The decision to shut down HAL was Bangalore specific. It was decided to shut down HAL 10.5 years before contract was awarded. So i am not forcing shut down of HAL. It was a Govt decision- however you twist, and what ever lies you speak, the truth is the Govt decided to shut down HAL long long long ago and you are speaking BS again about "Me trying to shut down HAL".


At the time of signing agreement 10 years back, passenger traffic growth was very low and hence such a decision. But now the situation has changed both in central government new airport policy and passenger traffic growth in Bangalore which warrants reopening of HAL airport.

you are being absurd. bial does not decide that. govt's have decided that and signed a contract that hal would be closed.

Sorry,as per my information it was not the government but one of BIAL consortium partners who insisted on the closure of HAL airport at last stage of contract.


if govt wants to renege, it should negotiate it on commercial terms by some means of compensation. they haven't does that.


Government on its part have already done its job through MoCA suggesting operation of small aircraft for short haul routes from HAL airport. BIAL has refused it.

Now, the ball is in BIAL court on how it wants HAL to operate commercial aircrafts and what compensation it needs.

Perfectly agree with what you say. BIAL shouldnot go bankrupt because of HAL. But the situation is different from what you say. Actual air passenger traffic at Bangalore was 10.2 million in 2007-08 whereas BIAL projected 7 million pax in the same year. That means, Bangalore has 3million + traffic more than what BIAL expected.

Whereas many people have pointed out that BIAL capacity is less than 10million and cannot handle the huge passenger traffic growth in Bangalore.
Second phase expansion will take not less than 5 years and under this situation, it is mentioned to re-open HAL airport.




Please note HAL airport has been pumped with tax payers money to run commercial aircrafts like B747 etc. and terminals have been expanded in past. That means the infrastructure in HAL is not a small thing to wash hands off easily. And as for testing defence and HAL aircrafts, you dont need a B747 runway and airconditioned domestic/international terminals for that.

So. how do you justify closing down HAL airport when BIAL is incapable of handling passenger traffic growth in Bangalore at world class levels?




At the time of signing agreement 10 years back, passenger traffic growth was very low and hence such a decision. But now the situation has changed both in central government new airport policy and passenger traffic growth in Bangalore which warrants reopening of HAL airport.

Look Prakash, I may be able to answer your questions technically with a bit of effort, and attempt to give really possible solutions wrt to BIA(and as regards your questions now, i think almost all of them have been answered in previous discussions) - but i am reluctatnt to go into a discussion with u on that- because i feel you have already decided conclusively that HAL should reopen- and because i feel the discussions will go around in circles for ever which is unnecessarily only time and energy sapping with no light at the end of the tunnel- i mean it will only be an argument and nothing more.
What i would do is to get into what can be done to improve BIA, involve with other like minded people and attempt to do whatever it takes to make BIA world class, to improve connectivity and so on.

For those who were opposing that two airports cannot function in a city, here we go:

http://business-standard.com/common/news_article.php?tab=r&autono=328339&subLeft=1&leftnm=3


Mumbai gets approval for second airport
BS Reporter / Mumbai July 10, 2008, 0:57 IST

The Maharashtra cabinet today gave formal approval to City and Industrial Development Corporation's (CIDCO) plans to develop second airport for the city in Navi Mumbai area. The cabinet approval allows CIDCO to call global bids for this Rs 10,000-crore project once they receive detailed project report (DPR).

At present, Mumbai airport has capacity to handle 20 million passengers annually, which will go up after modernisation to 40 million. However, by 2013 this capacity will be completely utilised and there will be need to have second air port.

If things go by schedule prepared by the CIDCO, airport will be operational by 2012 and it will generate 10 million traffic in the year of inception.

BUSINESS STANDARD

Bangalore airport capacity may double
BS Reporter / New Delhi July 13, 2008, 0:36 IST

Civil aviation minister Praful Patel has directed Bangalore International Airport Limited (BIAL), the Siemens-led private consortium developing the new greenfield airport, to increase its capacity to handle passengers.

According to sources in the civil aviation ministry, the current passenger handling capacity of the Bangalore airport is 11 million per annum.

Sources in the civil aviation ministry said that BIAL has been told to create a second terminal which will be an exact replica of the existing terminal within the next three years. This would more than double the capacity of the airport.

Till that terminal is not completed, BIAL has been asked to make arrangements to increase its capacity in the next eight months. Sources in the ministry said that Patel was "not happy with the new airport"

BIAL's projected traffic of 10.1 million passengers by 2010 was achieved in 2007-08 itself and the airport has been seeing a 25 per cent growth over the past couple of years.

More at
http://business-standard.com/common/news_article.php?leftnm=10&bKeyFlag=BO&autono=328553

>>
For people travelling to Middle eastern countries/ South east asia (Gulf/Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia which has about 4-5 hrs flying time) there was not much choices available 1 year back because getting slot at HAL was difficult. People were forced to travel via Bombay/Chennai. After BIAL opening EK /SQ increased capacity, Oman Air started new service

Yes, true there is potential to have more international direct flights from BIA.
I wish more such international flights come to BIA in future. Let international flights operate from BIAL only.

I have requested for short haul flights from HAL airport and long haul flights continue at BIA only.

No, it means not all Bangloreans want HAL to re-open, so stop claiming that majority of bangaloreans want HAL to re-open. Its just a minority, and u are among them.

Can you prove by facts or reports on what you have said?

MRTPC dismisses petition on BIAL's monopoly issue (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Transportation/MRTPC_dismisses_petition_on_BIALs_monopoly_issue/articleshow/3228014.cms)

NEW DELHI: Anti-monopoly watchdog MRTPC has dismissed a petition challenging the exclusive agreement between Bangalore International Airport Ltd (BIAL) and the Centre for not sanctioning any new airport within its 150 km radius for next 25 years.


Bangalore-based Association of Outsourcing Professionals (AOP) had alleged that by granting such 'concession agreement' to BIAL by the government created monopoly in the favour of the developers of the newly commissioned Bangalore airport.

MRTPC, however, rejected the petition on the ground that the agreement was entered into by the government and any such agreement in which the Centre is an approver or a party to such agreement, does not comes under the purview of monopolistic trade practices.

MRTPC bench headed by Justice O P Dwivedi declined to pass any order and said the MRTP Act "clearly bars the jurisdiction of this commission from taking congnizance as Government of India is a party to it."

The bench added, "we hold that this complaint is not maintainable and no notices to be issued to respondent (centre). Accordingly, the complaint is dismissed".

The Commission also rejected AOP's contention that the Centre's agreement does not come under 'sovereign immunity' as it was not an act done for public and was a commercial act.

"We are unable to be persuaded by the arguments tendered by the complainant (AOP). The agreement is clearly between the Government of India and BIAL.

"Even though the agreement may be of commercial nature, it needs to be emphasised that Government of India remains a party to it by virtue of signing agreement," said the Commission.

As per the agreement between the Centre and BIAL, no new or existing airport would be allowed to be developed, improved or upgraded within radius of 150 km for next 25 years.

AOP alleging that government's concession agreement created monopoly in the sector and amounted to unfair trade practices. It requested the MRTPC to direct the authorities to reopen the old HAL airport at Bangalore.

Sources in the ministry said that Patel was not happy with the new airport

that's a good joke. i wonder then what he feels about other aai run airports. i am more confident in bial's capability to run & expand their airport than GOI.

Can you prove by facts or reports on what you have said?

I would ask him to prove "if majority dont support HAL reopening"- only if you first prove what you have been saying several times well before his statement - i.e, you would need to prove by default "that majority support reopening of HAL".

From info available no report has ever measured properly Bangalore's and Karnataka's opinion on this(i.e, the people who foot the bill for keeping HAL open - HAL is a public sector enity). The report which you cited did not specify the sample population - and from the opinion of knowledgeable people in Bangalore and citizens living in Bangalore(among whom the survey was supposed to be undertaken)- the sampled population was only in specific areas of Bangalore like Electronic City and around HAL. Your sample should represent Banglaore and Karnataka.
Again first please prove your statement, only then does he need to do likewise - to be fair.

For those who were opposing that two airports cannot function in a city, here we go:

http://business-standard.com/common/news_article.php?tab=r&autono=328339&subLeft=1&leftnm=3


Mumbai gets approval for second airport
BS Reporter / Mumbai July 10, 2008, 0:57 IST



No one here thinks that two airports cannot function in a city. I happen to live in a city which has 3 airports, but the point is Bangalore does'nt need two airports.

BIAL is capable of handling the current passenger demand and with the temporary and future expansions, BIAL is in a good position to handle the future traffic also.Mumbai is not same as Bangalore, every city has its own metrics on limits and constraints.

Can you prove by facts or reports on what you have said?


Sorry, the burden of proof is on you.

I agree with mailadobe. So can you prove by facts or reports that majority of Banglore TODAY want to re-open HAL?

Yes please - discussions are getting offensively personal and disrespectful and so lose credibility. In these cases even facts are prone to being presented in a biased manner and sometimes altered to support an overtly fought debate.

Passionate discussions and debates are fine, desirable even, especially if it throws up valid points that can be considered either way. Points are valid me thinks if they hold fort as noteworthy even if presented to GOI/GOK or BIAL who are the concerned parties discussed here.

Name calling and personal instigation needs to stop if we are to salvage quality of this discussion thread.

Any child can use their power of speech irresponsibly by name calling - it is intended to hurt, disturb, and basically express that one has become personally disturbed.
It takes some amount of maturity/ wisedom to know how to refrain from succumbing to a tit-for-tat name calling spree and rather focussing on the issue. It takes a bit of practice but I am sure EVERYONE in this thread knows/ can lean how to do this.




Possible solution to help discourage this unproductive practice:

- If one party starts name calling - he can be firmly but politely requested to stop rather than being called another name by the target.
- If this goes on once too many a time, then the next request to stop can be accompanied by an alert to the moderator.
- If name calling or offensive post still continue perhaps the moderator can delete all those offensive posts. This would normally cool the hot headed one...
- If it still continues then I suppose the moderators will know the best action to take - withdrawing certain priveledges to the concered party etc...

If anyone has a different suggestion or a better idea do post it. We can make this thread more credible with a potential for legitimate people's participation on ground to make a difference in the real life scenario ...


Simple, just ban the person who started calling us "BIAL-licker" .
Just kidding :)

I agree with you contracts need to be honoured. But in this case, the contract seems to have been modified two times after signing. Does it mean that the contract is dishonoured? What do you say?


The contract was modified by mutual agreement. If one party does'nt agree you cannot forcibly change the contract. Its as simple as that.

The suggestion was put to BIAL by MoCA but alas BIA was as stubborn as ever and refused the suggestion outright.

Good, maybe GOK can flatten the land now and build couple of skyscrapers there in place of the eyesore airport. Bangalore needs a nice skyline :)

If Bluru's Air Traffic becomes huge i.e. past BIAL's 2 runways then Bluru has the option of building a second airport - not HAL. A second greenfield in some other neighboring halli far away from BIAL/Yelahanka/HAL flight paths. Maybe TN would beat them with an airport in Hosur.

HAL is reserved for central govt. activities, not for commercial activities, but for national security and aircraft development. Till date, I dont see any need to reopen HAL for commercial operations. BIAL can handle all the traffic. They are well on their way to a second runway. This should handle oodles of traffic.

Sorry, the burden of proof is on you.




Please refer to my posting #57 in this thread for my proof.
Do you have any proof ( old or new) to substantiate your views?

No one here thinks that two airports cannot function in a city. I happen to live in a city which has 3 airports, but the point is Bangalore does'nt need two airports.


No, not as you say. Many people in previous thread postings had claimed that two airports cannot function in any city in India and DGCA will not give approval. The news report on Mumbai second airport is meant as an eyeopener for those people who make such false claims for selfish goals.


BIAL is capable of handling the current passenger demand and with the temporary and future expansions, BIAL is in a good position to handle the future traffic also.

Sorry, I dont think so. Neither does AAI and Central Government that BIAL is capable of handling Bangalore passenger traffic by the way BIAL is going.

Please note that the honourable minister of aviation Shri Praful Patel himself announced recently that he is not happy with the capability of BIAL and directed BIAL to immediately expand its floor area & second phase without any further delay. Whereas BIAL earlier said it will take up second phase later when needed. Thus, BIAL is clearly now pushed by Aviation ministry to increase its capability after it was found that BIA is giving false claims on its capability and covering up its mess.


The fact that short haul flights were withdrawn from BIAL recently and BIAL false claim on capacity has angered public and aviation ministry.This clearly points that BIAL is failing to do a good job in handling Bangalore traffic growth.

If Bluru's Air Traffic becomes huge i.e. past BIAL's 2 runways then Bluru has the option of building a second airport - not HAL


Forget such honey dreams, buddy. BIAL is not even willing to take up its second phase of expansion and you are talking about its second airport. Not in this 21st century, for sure.



HAL is reserved for central govt. activities, not for commercial activities, but for national security and aircraft development.

What do you mean by central govt. activities in an airport?

If HAL not meant for commercial activities, why is HAL runway upgraded in past to handle B747s? Why AAI expanded HAL terminals to have two - one for domestic and another for international? Please remember even BIAL has only one terminal to handle domestic and international.




Till date, I dont see any need to reopen HAL for commercial operations. BIAL can handle all the traffic.


It is already found that BIAL is incapable of handling Bangalore traffic growth.
BIAL has not announced any concrete plans of expansion either.

Worse even, many short haul flights have withdrawn from BIAL for its higher operational cost and distance from city center.

Many businesses have shifted their meeting venues to other cities. Potential threat of flight of businesses from Bangalore exist.

Under these circumstances, your suggestion that " BIAL can handle all traffic"
is only making a mockery of Bangalore and I feel can only hit the Bangalore economy further down.

Forget such honey dreams, buddy.
Quit the terms of endearment, you don't need to resort this with your level of comprehension.


What do you mean by central govt. activities in an airport?

isn't this self evident. look up a dictionary if you are having problems.


It is already found that BIAL is incapable of handling Bangalore traffic growth.

No, you are completely wrong. BIAL is quite capable. Only you refuse to see their capability.

BIAL is doing a decent job now it seems although not nearly as good as RGIA in Hyd.

BIAL still operates flights on a pretty regular basis to business centers like Mumbai , Hyderabad , Chennai . Sure the short haul flights have seen a significant withdrawal but I don't think reducing flights to Mysore or Mangalore etc will seriously bump B'lore Economy. Also , flights to these centers still operate .

I took the jet airways ATR , flight 9W 519 to Mangalore recently from BIAL and it was a breeze , from getting to the airport , checking in , space available inside the building to take off - everything was just fine.

Reduction in frequency of short haul flights does not justify re-opening of an old airport , it has to be something more than that.

If someone must travel then they should use the train as it's either overnight or just day journeys .

Reducing these flights saves on ATF usage , congestion in the skies , losses for aircrafts.

Once the crude oil prices recede to $90 again (if ever) then we will see revival of these flights , sure HAL was a bit more easy to get to but there are buses available which ferry people to the airport and costs which are distinctly manageable

Forget such honey dreams, buddy. BIAL is not even willing to take up its second phase of expansion and you are talking about its second airport. Not in this 21st century, for sure.




What do you mean by central govt. activities in an airport?

If HAL not meant for commercial activities, why is HAL runway upgraded in past to handle B747s? Why AAI expanded HAL terminals to have two - one for domestic and another for international? Please remember even BIAL has only one terminal to handle domestic and international.





It is already found that BIAL is incapable of handling Bangalore traffic growth.
BIAL has not announced any concrete plans of expansion either.

Worse even, many short haul flights have withdrawn from BIAL for its higher operational cost and distance from city center.

Many businesses have shifted their meeting venues to other cities. Potential threat of flight of businesses from Bangalore exist.

Under these circumstances, your suggestion that " BIAL can handle all traffic"
is only making a mockery of Bangalore and I feel can only hit the Bangalore economy further down.


Friends,
I dont know who this guy is -could be the duplicate ID of another person using this blog(who many think is a lobbyist), or it could be another special interest group guy. Look at all his posts- he is speaking like a politician - i mean like as if people are fools- twisting even easily understandible things into something else as if people are fools. This is what politicians do(brainwashing) - making ur head go in circles until you get reconciled to what they say.
One way to deal with this in my opinion is to not take it too seriously and treat such people with the same contempt and disrespect with which they treat other's intellect(i dont advocate name calling - i say treat it lightly as if it were a joke)- give them back a taste of their same medicine like squash. I feel if thats not done, then this thing will only go on back and forth for ever causing damage not to him - but to others whom he's trying to brainwash by fooling them, wasting their time and degrading their intellect(physically this is possible). Think about it- do his arguments make any sense?- has he ever answered questions straightforwardly?.
Thanks.

The contract was modified by mutual agreement. If one party does'nt agree you cannot forcibly change the contract. Its as simple as that.

Can you tell us why the contract was modified two times and whether two parties wanted it or not?

i am reluctatnt to go into a discussion with u on that- because i feel you have already decided conclusively that HAL should reopen- and because i feel the discussions will go around in circles for ever which is unnecessarily only time and energy sapping with no light at the end of the tunnel- i mean it will only be an argument and nothing more.

Isnot that a kind of giving up to what Iam saying is right?

I guess you have started slowing getting convinced that HAL airport is needed for Bangalore even if your ego is not willing to allow you to say that.

I took the jet airways ATR , flight 9W 519 to Mangalore recently from BIAL and it was a breeze , from getting to the airport , checking in , space available inside the building to take off - everything was just fine.


Can you share with us how long it took for you to reach BIA airport from city(please mention your start place)?


Reduction in frequency of short haul flights does not justify re-opening of an old airport , it has to be something more than that.


Please share with us that "something more" you think is fit for reopening HAL.



If someone must travel then they should use the train as it's either overnight or just day journeys .


What if I or somebody prefer to use flight and want to reach my destination at the shortest time. In such a case can you share with us what do you think whether BIAL or HAL is the best choice.

Isnot that a kind of giving up to what Iam saying is right?

I guess you have started slowing getting convinced that HAL airport is needed for Bangalore even if your ego is not willing to allow you to say that.

Wrong guess- better luck next time!.

As to the former part of your post - misconstruing like that is not my forte, but i cant prevent you from doing so.

Can you share with us how long it took for you to reach BIA airport from city(please mention your start place)?



Please share with us that "something more" you think is fit for reopening HAL.




What if I or somebody prefer to use flight and want to reach my destination at the shortest time. In such a case can you share with us what do you think whether BIAL or HAL is the best choice.



Ok , one by one - here are your answers.

I took a cab from BTM 2nd stage , Alliance Business Academy to be specific - I'm not living in B'lore so can't give a detailed route which I took , but it was on Friday i.e. 3rd July and took me 1hr. 40 min. to reach the airport , the cost is again something which I don't recall but it was what I had expected it to be.

By something more I meant that if it could be proven beyond reasonable doubt that an airport by itself cannot handle the passenger and air traffic and is a potential cause of peril to passengers , or companies are facing great difficuly in getting cargo on time or aspects such as baggage handling or passenger comfort are way less than what was expected of it. I personally did not feel any of the above is the case.

And about the 3rd question , as I had said that these flights have not been completly taken off , just their frequency has reduced , if someone is in a hurry to reach than flights are available at pre-informed time slots by different airlines.

HAL should not be opened until BIAL is totally proved incapable and subsequent costs of HAL opening can be justified , even if it were to open for regional flights still the cost of running it and maintaining it would be a significant burden on AAI.

Sorry, I dont think so. Neither does AAI and Central Government that BIAL is capable of handling Bangalore passenger traffic by the way BIAL is going.

Please note that the honourable minister of aviation Shri Praful Patel himself announced recently that he is not happy with the capability of BIAL and directed BIAL to immediately expand its floor area & second phase without any further delay. Whereas BIAL earlier said it will take up second phase later when needed. Thus, BIAL is clearly now pushed by Aviation ministry to increase its capability after it was found that BIA is giving false claims on its capability and covering up its mess.


The fact that short haul flights were withdrawn from BIAL recently and BIAL false claim on capacity has angered public and aviation ministry.This clearly points that BIAL is failing to do a good job in handling Bangalore traffic growth.

Please read your above post once again. According to your own words AAI, Cent Govt and Praful Patel are asking BIAL for expansion. Does'nt it tell you something? If not let me explain in a sentence, AAI, Cent Govt and Praful Patel don't think that HAL must be re-opened, they are asking BIAL to expand instead.

Now, regarding BIAL's expansion plans, Mr. Brunner in his latest interview has clearly said that the expansion plans is already in works. So all your claims that BIAL does'nt want to expand is bogus!

Forget such honey dreams, buddy. BIAL is not even willing to take up its second phase of expansion and you are talking about its second airport. Not in this 21st century, for sure.



honey dreams??? Mysore airport should come up in two years and once BMIC is complete, people living in southern bangalore can reach Mysore airport in little over an hour, so Bangalore metroplolitan area having two airports is not a dream!

This is no different from SFO & SJC, contrary to popular belief that San francisco has two airports (forget OAK for this discussion), SJC is in the city of San Jose which is 50 miles south of San Francisco.

Anyways my point is Bangalore does'nt need HAL, HAL is just a cancer to BIAL's growth. Your honey dream of having two airports for Bangloreans is currently being fulfilled by Mysore airport

Please refer to my posting #57 in this thread for my proof.
Do you have any proof ( old or new) to substantiate your views?


wtf ? r u kidding me... this whole discussion with you started because of your posting #57, now you want me to go back to the same posting. Whats ur problem,r u having brain cramps or what? Can't u ever have a constructive debate? arrg! :?

Can you tell us why the contract was modified two times and whether two parties wanted it or not?

Just go back and read some of the previous posts, there is a full fledged discussion on these amendments

wtf ? r u kidding me... this whole discussion with you started because of your posting #57, now you want me to go back to the same posting. Whats ur problem,r u having brain cramps or what? Can't u ever have a constructive debate? arrg! :?

yshak, why do you think the previous thread had 3518 posts and was ultimately locked? :lol:

http://www.praja.in/bangalore/discuss/2008/05/bial-whats-working-and-whats-not#comment-6519

wtf ? r u kidding me... this whole discussion with you started because of your posting #57, now you want me to go back to the same posting. Whats ur problem,r u having brain cramps or what? Can't u ever have a constructive debate? arrg! :?

yshak, sometimes I get brain cramps while reading mpvp's posts :lol: .Its hard to make sense of his arguments

If someone must travel then they should use the train as it's either overnight or just day journeys .




What if I or somebody prefer to use flight and want to reach my destination at the shortest time. In such a case can you share with us what do you think whether BIAL or HAL is the best choice.

The choice is yours, either take the train or fly from BIAL. It will make sense to open HAL only if it can offer shortest travel time to everyone, not just for the selected few who happen to live near HAL

And using train service instead of short-haul flights is nothing new. If you book a ticket to cologne on Lufthansa, they automatically put you on a train to cologne from frankfurt, same with air france who do not operate flights from paris to brussels, instead they automatically book you on thalys.

yshak, sometimes I get brain cramps while reading mpvp's posts :lol: .Its hard to make sense of his arguments

I had similar exp in MSN's BDA site forum. 2 years back, with limited knowledge of airport, I posted a comparision of HIAL & BIAL. I asked people whether we are taken for ride? (That time DG was controlling govt. He has hatred against City folks). That time also many people started questioning requirement of new airport for BLR.

I took a cab from BTM 2nd stage , Alliance Business Academy to be specific - I'm not living in B'lore so can't give a detailed route which I took , but it was on Friday i.e. 3rd July and took me 1hr. 40 min. to reach the airport , the cost is again something which I don't recall but it was what I had expected it to be.

Thanks for the info shared. BTM layout is south of Bangalore diammetrically opposite side to BIAL , you may have taken the bannerghatta road and I cannot believe you it took only 1:40hr as traffic crawls in those roads. Maybe you are lucky to have reached BIAL one of those freaky days in such a short time, usually it takes the same time to reach Majestic bus stand from BTM. I guess it should take more than 2 hours from BTM layout to BIAL on any normal day during peak time. And off course you may have given more than 1000 rupees for the cab ride.

And I guess your mangalore flight duration should be around 45minutes. If it were HAL, it should have taken you only around 30 minutes by road via Koramangala ring road and HAL airport road.

Given a choice of HAL and BIAL, on total time taken for journey , which airport would you prefer?



By something more I meant that if it could be proven beyond reasonable doubt that an airport by itself cannot handle the passenger and air traffic and is a potential cause of peril to passengers , or companies are facing great difficuly in getting cargo on time or aspects such as baggage handling or passenger comfort are way less than what was expected of it. I personally did not feel any of the above is the case.

Understand your points. What if short haul flights are withdrawing from BIAL for lack of passenger traffic and more such airlines planning withdrawal? Would you consider opening of HAL for the convenience of short haul passengers?



HAL should not be opened until BIAL is totally proved incapable and subsequent costs of HAL opening can be justified , even if it were to open for regional flights still the cost of running it and maintaining it would be a significant burden on AAI.

I think we should see this in different angle.

BIAL was built by world class promoters,they know in & out of airports and are experts in aviation as they claim. But people who travel around globe find BIAL nowhere near to world class standards of Changi, Narita, Hong Kong etc.
Many people have openly said that BIAL has done cost cutting to an extreme level for BIA and hence the present sorry state. Passengers are ferried to the planes by buses as in many primitive airports and not by aerobridges. They say BIAL is only a marginal improvement of HAL. Do you still accept BIAL as a world class airport for HAL to shut down forever?

The choice is yours, either take the train or fly from BIAL. It will make sense to open HAL only if it can offer shortest travel time to everyone, not just for the selected few who happen to live near HAL

The travel time to HAL airport from any part of city within corporation limits is lower than the travel time to BIA.



And using train service instead of short-haul flights is nothing new. If you book a ticket to cologne on Lufthansa, they automatically put you on a train to cologne from frankfurt, same with air france who do not operate flights from paris to brussels, instead they automatically book you on thalys.


It is the passenger's choice to use flight or train. A city should provide the best of infrastructure for air and rail travellers. It is not good to force a passenger by train by lowering air facilities.

In nutshell, If BIA cannot take care of short haul passengers well, get out of the way and allow HAL to do the job.

Wrong guess- better luck next time!.

As to the former part of your post - misconstruing like that is not my forte, but i cant prevent you from doing so.


You already have shown your expertise in cheap form of teasing and name calling others as moderator had warned you. Knowingly, I donot intend to get into unnecessary fights with you.Thanks

The contract was modified by mutual agreement. If one party does'nt agree you cannot forcibly change the contract. Its as simple as that.

Do you know why the contract was modified two times and the contents modified?

Also whether both the parties consented to modify agreement or one party was forced to do it.

I don't have much of an idea about directions around B'lore but sure Prakash I agree that HAL would have made life a little easier on this occasion , but short haul flights from B'lore which I had boarded before , it came to my notice that these flights never had a very good load factor , selective airlines went there and tickets cost more than what they did to Delhi or Mumbai and not much has changed in this regard except load factor has decreased further (marginally) .

People traveling by air on these sectors has always been very few but very vocal against BIAL , a lot of thought has to be given weather or not such a small majority can justify the use of another airport , forget all the IT honchos here . I'm just talking about general public.

BIAL seemed self sufficient and comfortable to me , sure not the standards of Kingsford Smith or Changi but good enough , connectivity and safe transportation is something the Govt. has to do and because it finds it easier to burden the center with HAL mantainence costs it cries for HAL to be open , they should rather put their effort towards a metro and expressway.

And as you said in reply to Raichen that it's the Govt. domain to provide good infrastructure , if HAL opens it gives the lazy govt. another excuse not to improve airport related road and rail infrastructure , in fact whenever people voice inconvenience the State will just order another sector to be put on HAL map in the name of public convenience.

I live in South Delhi and reaching IGI was troublesome for me but since the expressway came up , it's a lot easier

You already have shown your expertise in cheap form of teasing and name calling others as moderator had warned you. Knowingly, I donot intend to get into unnecessary fights with you.Thanks

Wow!, hypocrisy at its best:
You see?, you have no answer and are incapable- not just now, but this has been your strategy all along the months. When you cannot answer to my straight forward reply to you which was: As to the former part of your post - misconstruing like that is not my forte, but i cant prevent you from doing so., then you change track and divert. So you accept that you misconstrue and twist others's statements, right?. This is what You, MPVP have been doing always on this board. This is what I call cheap.
If you did not want to not talk to me then you could have done so 2 posts back. Its was you who wanted to talk to me there (after you felt i was "indecent")- I DID NOT start this conversation after you felt i was "indecent"- it was you. So it was ok for you to talk to an "indecent" guy in the first place(which means "decency" did not bother you then) and actually mock me sarcastically - but ONLY WHEN i reply to you pointing out your mistake which you found disagreeable, do you start attacking me about my "decency". Look at your cunningness. This is also how your arguments on reopening HAL are - very shaky foundation.
I never call names out of the blue- i base my characterizations based on what is said on the forum(a mirror image of people like you and MPVP). If mirror images are indecent then you then you must be indecent. I never used names that are not used in blogs or TV interviews by a wide variety of people who are considered to be decent by popular perception.

Decency of Socialists:
I am a person who knows my legal limits very well- i dont need advise from people who claimed to be socialists and are apparently practicing socialists.
I know the decency of socialists- starting from the decency of C.M Achuthanandan in Kerala who called a woman a dirty illegal name and uses filthy words often- for which the socialists did not condemn him but rather reaffirmed their support to him.
......
I know the decency of Socialists who organized their hoodlums to kill 100s of innocent civilians in Singur out of their arrogance and with no value for human life.
......
I know the decency of Socialists who destroyed Indian economy with socialism, red tapism, and non performing public sector industries - and who dont care about productivity or the development of India.
......
I know the decency of socialsts and the scant respect they have for human rights.
I know the decency of socialists who dont have any qualms at all in NOT expressing their displeasure to the top bosses who had full complicity in the crime stated above.
And to oppose the dirty campaign of the socialists who want to take my country further down the path of destruction and to expose that and chracterize themas to precisely what they are(and what they are doing) - using perfectly legal words as i have done- makes me proud- it does not make me ashamed. A rebuke about virtuosity from a socialist is a commendation for me.

You are here doing propaganda and am not surprised you wont hesitate to use any tool to attack people who expose the chinks in your armour. Generally speaking i dont think there is any serious value in sermons on virtues conducted by people who have identified themselves with and continue to support a movement in India that glorifies murder, abuse of human rights, and economic carnage(the worst things that can be done to the common man), that glorifies terrorists like Lenin and Stalin, and many other shameful and illegal things. If it is "indecent" to talk about these facts and if its indecent to speak some truth, then so be it.
The core of your discussions is your affiliation- you are not an avaiation enthusiast or something to have an interesting avaiation discussion with (again this is factual from the sum total of ur posts).

A news report that pooh-poohs the claim made by a few people a few weeks ago that the LCC market was dying. If the LCC market is dying then why are so many people rushing in for a stake in the LCC business?. When i said the other day- Spicejet if it decided to get out of the LCC business would have done so because of its own incompetence, and that if spice Jet decides to get out of the LCC business others will jump in to fill in the void- someone said that i was talking nonsense, that i dont understand aviation and so forth. These critics should read the news report above.

Kingfisher loses out, Wilbur Ross gets SpiceJet stake
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/kingfisher-loses-out-wilbur-ross-gets-spicejet-stake/68873-7.html

You are here doing propaganda and am not surprised you wont hesitate to use any tool to attack people who expose the chinks in your armour. Generally speaking i dont think there is any serious value in sermons on virtues conducted by people who have identified themselves with and continue to support a movement in India that glorifies murder, abuse of human rights, and economic carnage(the worst things that can be done to the common man), that glorifies terrorists like Lenin and Stalin, and many other shameful and illegal things. If it is "indecent" to talk about these facts and if its indecent to speak some truth, then so be it.
The core of your discussions is your affiliation- you are not an avaiation enthusiast or something to have an interesting avaiation discussion with (again this is factual from the sum total of ur posts).


I dont understand what you are talking about . You seem to have some political arguments and go on talking about socialism, comunism etc..... when no one has asked for it. Comeon yaar, are you out of your mind to discuss politics in this airport forum?

I dont know if any politician is watching this forum to reply to your political statements. Or are you yourself a disgruntled politician?

Iam a frequent flier using Bangalore airport for past many decades. Iam not an aviation expert but have used many airports in this world to be aware of how world airports should be. And having been in Bangalore for decades, I have a good idea about how airports in Bangalore need to function.

I understand the value HAL airport can provide to Bangalore in addition to BIAL which is crippled by its peak capacity to handle Bangalore traffic.

Hope you understand now and please for god sake donot bring in more such long boring political speeches anymore. I hate politics:)

I don't have much of an idea about directions around B'lore but sure Prakash I agree that HAL would have made life a little easier on this occasion , but short haul flights from B'lore which I had boarded before , it came to my notice that these flights never had a very good load factor , selective airlines went there and tickets cost more than what they did to Delhi or Mumbai and not much has changed in this regard except load factor has decreased further (marginally) .

Thank you for your candid admission that HAL airport helps short haul passengers. I can understand you are another flier like me as you have echoed the same sentiment here. Yes, the load factor on short haul flights from BIAL has come down compared to the figures previously from HAL airport due to higher costs and alternative modes of transport becoming attractive.



People traveling by air on these sectors has always been very few but very vocal against BIAL , a lot of thought has to be given weather or not such a small majority can justify the use of another airport , forget all the IT honchos here . I'm just talking about general public.


If you carefully see the requests from various segments of public, you will see the request for HAL airport reopening is primarily for short haul passengers.



BIAL seemed self sufficient and comfortable to me , sure not the standards of Kingsford Smith or Changi but good enough , connectivity and safe transportation is something the Govt. has to do and because it finds it easier to burden the center with HAL mantainence costs it cries for HAL to be open , they should rather put their effort towards a metro and expressway.

And as you said in reply to Raichen that it's the Govt. domain to provide good infrastructure , if HAL opens it gives the lazy govt. another excuse not to improve airport related road and rail infrastructure , in fact whenever people voice inconvenience the State will just order another sector to be put on HAL map in the name of public convenience.

I live in South Delhi and reaching IGI was troublesome for me but since the expressway came up , it's a lot easier

When the agreement was signed 10 years back, the Government knew that a good connectivity was needed to BIA. Now we see that instead of good connectivity, parts and stretches of NH7 leading to BIA is widened in the last minute out of pressure from courts and Govt. , with many bottlenecks and safety of pedestrians overlooked. Safety of pedestrians on NH7 road is neglected and becoming an important issue as the vehicles overspeed at more than 150kmph at some stretches ( which is far above Indian speed limits) causing heavy casualties and deaths to local people on road. It may soon reach a catastrophic limit and people may resort to agitation on roads leading to installation of more signal points and thereby further slowing down of road traffic. BIA and some people claim that travel time to BIA by road has come down 1:30hr etc..when the actual travel time within legal speed limits still could take anywhere upto 2hours.

The proper way to address the connectivity is to build an access controlled expressway or metro rail link to BIA from city centre. Nothing, not even land aquisition has been done in this front and it may take years to complete such a project even if it starts now.

That is why I and many others have been telling that till the time BIAL capacity issues and connectivity to BIA is established, let HAL airport serve the public atleast for short haul passengers. Once BIA capability is established and BIAL connectivity is fully ready, let HAL airport shut down slowly; for sure I would not object then and public support for HAL will come down and go a natural death.

I've travelled twice to and from BIAL over the past 3 weeks. Both times entering BLR around 10 pm and exiting BLR around 8 am. The departure times were in the peak hour (for domestic) and arrival times just after peak hours. The business travelers who would go to BIAL would anyways not face any traffic in the early mornings..people can and have reached the airport in 60-75 mins depending on the distance travelled. For this segment especially, making day trips to short haul locations, the argument of distance/time doesn't hold true when you compare BIAL vs. HAL. I don't buy the argument that there are productivity losses due to time spent on the road, for this segment of travelers.

Secondly, when you compare time taken for door-to-door vis-a-vis air and road/rail, the media has conveniently chosen to take door-to-door calculations for the flights but not for road/rail. Today, it takes me 45 mins in peak hour to anyways get to the City railway station/KBS. I stay in Vijayanagar. Its not like you want to reach 2 mins before the bus/train departs. It takes the rail/bus close to an hour to reach BLR outer limits, traveling towards Chennai or Hyderabad or Mangalore. Plus reverse calculate the same at the destination. All these calculations have been conveniently ignored to show that road/rail takes a lot less time then traveling via BIAL. Btw, it would take me 1.5 hours to reach HAL, same as BIAL, during peak hours. I don't buy this "short haul passengers convenience argument" for this reason. Take average time spent to BIAL and HAL from across Bangalore and then do your comparisons. Whoever says that you can reach HAL less than 1 hour during peak hours from the North, West and South-West parts of Bangalore is joking.

Thirdly, this is a golden opportunity for fast rail corridors between BLR-HYD and BLR-MAA, stopping at Cantt and KR Puram/Benniganahalli. But IR hasn't been known for its fast reactions to situations, has it!!

The very small number of people who would be serviced by HAL opening is my main issue against it , the no. of regional fliers can be considered minimalistic portion of the entire population flying out of and in to B'lore.

HAL was/is a decent airport and I never went along with others notion of it being a cow shed , but the flights from there to regional airports were very less too and not many people traveled by those sectors anyhow.

The main issue for regional fliers is price rise and not time taken , an hour here and there would not bother them as much as the recent price rise.

Since BIA opening and ATF surge has co-incided with each other , so an objective judgment cannot be passed is BIA is solely responsible for reduction in short haul flights. If air fares go down and still passenger load factor does not increase only then is it a case for HAL to open , otherwise not.

To co-relate this with another example - the no. of flights from IGI to airports like Varanasi , Chandigarh , Ludhiana etc has also reduced and only ATF rise has been responsible for it , therefore I think it's pre-mature to blame this squarely on BIAL's shoulders.

Plane truth: Trains fare better
By Nandini Chandrashekar, DH News Service, Bangalore:

Frequent short haul air travellers from Bangalore seem to be preferring the train, discouraged by the distance and time taken to travel to the new Bengaluru International Airport (BIA).

South-Western Railway officials here have noticed a great increase in passengers notably on the Shatabdi trains running between Chennai and Bangalore. Booking on these trains have been steady at 100 per cent beginning from the month of May.

Five trains ply daily between Bangalore and Chennai at present, excluding a weekend train. While most of these trains do experience heavy traffic, the Shatabdi has been facing unprecedented rush for the past two months and the trend appears set to continue.

Bangalore Divisional Railway Manager Akhil Agarwal told Deccan Herald that booking had increased significantly on Chennai, Hyderabad and Kochi-Trivandrum routes.

“We are going to observe this for a couple of more months and if the trend continues, then we will either add coaches to the existing trains or add a new train on the route.”

Shatabdi trains at present are running with seven coaches and these are likely to be augmented to 10 coaches.

Officials are still keenly watching the other sectors like Hyderabad and Kochi. There has been a definite increase in bookings on the Hyderabad route as well, but a senior railway official pointed out that it could also be due to the introduction of the Garib Rath train in the month of February.

The route towards Kochi and Trivandrum is a busy sector any time of the year and it has been difficult to establish the reason.

Travel agents have no doubts whatsoever, about the decline and the reasons for it. Rakesh P of Jagadish Air Travels admitted that they had a staggering 65-70 per cent drop in air ticket bookings to Chennai after the opening of the new airport. His clients clearly expressed their unwillingness to travel the long distance to the airport for a 30-minute flight.

He also said a considerable number of his clients who flew to Chennai to visit the consulates now prefers Shatabdi or a bus. In fact, so popular has been the demand for buses, that the agency started bus bookings as well to keep in tune with the customer requirements.

Another travels, Classic Air Travels, has also experienced a 50 per cent drop in their bookings to Chennai.

Interestingly enough, the passenger traffic to Hubli and Mangalore has fluctuated slightly, but nothing to indicate decreased air travel.

The reason, says Rakesh, could be because the number of travellers on this route have always been less, due to high costs and the ones that did travel could well afford it and would continue doing so.

Buses to Chennai seem to be faring pretty well considering that this is considered to be a slump season.

Phanindra Sama, CEO of redbus.in, the online portal offering reservations for 300 bus companies, said that sale of tickets to Chennai had jumped by about 35 per cent.

The increase was across all kinds of buses as the travel time is only five hours.

This time advantage seems to have encouraged software companies, who send their employees to obtain visas, to take the bus.

“There is a definite cost and time advantage to taking the bus to Chennai these days,” he added.


Above news is from DH, have pasted the text from Bangalorebuzz blog as I couldn't find the link on DH site.

According to the report, only Chennai sector seems to be affected. Data on Hyderabad and Kochi is inconclusive, as of now. Hubli and Mangalore don't seem to be affected.

Do we've data before and after BIAL opening on no. of flights on regional routes, their occupancy levels and total passengers on these routes? We can then make comparisons and cost-benefit analysis of re-opening HAL. All we are considering till now is anecdotal evidence that people on regional routes are being severely affected by BIAL. Can we have some nos. please? Can we also factor in ATF hikes and the general aviation environment and their effect on both BIAL and HIAL? I think they are simply being blamed for all ills affecting aviation in both cities.

We have gone through this HAL discussion endlessly. Here are some points to consider why HAL cannot be opened again, period.

HAL

1) Belongs to the Central Govt which decides its ultimate use, not the people of Bluru or GoK

2) Distance argument is bogus. People living near HAL find it convenient. The rest have a nightmarish commute getting there. The commute problem is best addressed by the State/City Govt.

3) Infrastructure at HAL is lacking. No adequate parking, passenger convenience is horrible. Upgrading any of these will require huge sums of money.

4) Reopening LCC makes no sense for HAL. The revenue is paltry - it is LCC remember. The additional burden of servicing LCC does not justify its revenue.

Here are some myths about BIAL that people constantly perpetuate, which are all false.

BIAL

1) BIAL cannot handle traffic volumes of Bluru. Completely false and mere propaganda. BIAL has oodles of space, and it can expand to meet the volume of traffic. In fact, it has started phase 2 of the plan to expand.

2) BIAL is too far away. What do you expect, all airports worldwide are far away and BIAL is well within the norms of distance from city. In fact it is only 40km away. This is best addressed by City/State infrastructure plan. At least, the approach roads are modern and adequate to the airport. Also people who travel by air can afford the commute whichever way they deem.

3) BIAL has killed regional traffic. Not true. It is entirely upto LCC to make it happen.

This is the fashion in which public sector companies in general conduct business:-

S Railway plays tricks with RTI applicant
Tuesday July 15 2008 11:48 IST
Newindpress
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE920080715012700&Page=9&Title=Chennai&Topic=0&

This is probably the most important reason our airports are in a bad shape- public sector employees take everything for granted and are a pampered lot (95 percent of them)they put their own selfishness before the customer interest or the company's efficiency or productivity). They have had decades to correct themselves but have only gotten worser. Every opportunity to ease them out of managing public sector companys created out of tax payers's money should be utilized as a golden opportunity.
Dont let the AAI back into running HAL airport.

We dont require a 2nd airport now- BIA is capable on its own. Maybe 15 years down the line we can start thinking of a second airport somewhere at the outskirts of Bangalore at a farthest distance from BIA.

The travel time to HAL airport from any part of city within corporation limits is lower than the travel time to BIA.
.

This is not true. We have gone through this discussion many times here




It is the passenger's choice to use flight or train. A city should provide the best of infrastructure for air and rail travellers. It is not good to force a passenger by train by lowering air facilities.

In nutshell, If BIA cannot take care of short haul passengers well, get out of the way and allow HAL to do the job.

BIA can take care of short haul passengers, this is just a cheap propaganda spread by selected few.

BIAL was built by world class promoters,they know in & out of airports and are experts in aviation as they claim. But people who travel around globe find BIAL nowhere near to world class standards of Changi, Narita, Hong Kong etc.

The current BIAL is only 30% of the final project. Wait till second phase is complete before you start comparing it to other large airports.

Even before BIAL laid the foundation stone, it was a public knowledge that the airport is modeled after Zurich Airport. I guess you have'nt been to ZRH, so am not surprised why you were expecting HKG or SIN. You are acting like someone who goes to Hyundai dealership and is expecting to get BMW instead




Passengers are ferried to the planes by buses as in many primitive airports and not by aerobridges. They say BIAL is only a marginal improvement of HAL. Do you still accept BIAL as a world class airport for HAL to shut down forever?

I personally don't like being ferried to the plane, but this happens in some of the largest so called "world class" airports also, not just BIA.

This past Sept I flew from SFO to CDG on air france and we were ferried in a bus to the terminal building at CDG, once before that I had to take the bus from my gate to the aircraft apron at Frankfurt for my flight to SFO. Both these international flights were operating B747-400 with over 300 passengers. I am not gonna talk about the number of times I was ferried in a bus at CDG for flights within EU.

The current BIAL is only 30% of the final project. Wait till second phase is complete before you start comparing it to other large airports.


I think its less than a quarter- because the current terminal could not be completed to the satisfaction of the promoters(not going into reasons all over again). Means there is atleast 75 percent to come.

Detail: I reckon each phase would be about 33 percent - and even the first phase is only about 60 percent complete(thats 60% of 33).

Even before BIAL laid the foundation stone, it was a public knowledge that the airport is modeled after Zurich Airport. I guess you have'nt been to ZRH, so am not surprised why you were expecting HKG or SIN. You are acting like someone who goes to Hyundai dealership and is expecting to get BMW instead


_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Zurich voted best European airport more than once(2005 report):
Airport award
Zürich was voted Best European Airport at this year’s World Travel Awards in London on 13 November. The airport has received this prestigious award for two years in succession.
http://www.moodiereport.com/document.php?c_id=31&doc_id=9293
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Zurich is continuously being improved- you can always see some major developmental work going on someplace or other(2007 report):
In Europe, Munich remains the passengers' favourite airport, taking Best Airport Europe title and ranked 4th in the world. Zurich was another upward mover, 2nd in Europe and 5th globally (2006-8th, 2005-15th). http://www.airlinequality.com/news/080807-Awards.htm
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I mean Zurich-Changi is not really a Hyundai - BMW comparison. The gap between them is not so huge.
The gap between BIA and Zurich is large in many metrics. One of them for example could be the cost(not to mention the unnecessary financial crunch i imagine they surely should have faced). BIA is not even like Zurich 1st phase.

Please dont conclude anything yet about the above. Let me explain :-
Like i have said before BIAL was unable to do the best job(like Zurich which they would have liked to, am sure), as would have happenned to ANYBODY in their place. But they can still bounce back and compensate through the rest of the project(remaining part of 1st phase, and then radical improvements in next phases). And to achieve that they absolutely need everything going right for them - HAL closure, UDF etc - to concede anything would be a luxury for them in these initial years.

If they generate enough income(am sure they will, in potentially one of the largest markets of the future), nothing prevents them from going for much bigger than they had originally planned.

According to various BIAL experiences that have been posted lately, distance and connectivity doesn't seem to be an issue anymore


http://praja.in/bangalore/discuss/2008/07/bial-experiences-suggestions-improvements-based-those-experiences


2 first hand experiences

my in-laws:

Arrived at BIA from Mumbai for the 1st time at BIA. Were very impressed by the new airport. Found the arrivals area very clean, spacious and functional. Were initially skeptical of the distance of the airport from the city. But, were very happy with the bus connectivity provided by BMTC. Took the bus and got off in an hour at Mekhri circle hence did not mind the distance.

I found Devesh in todays times of india:lol:

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn150/2paise/Picture5.jpg

I think it is time to list the must have features in BIAL, going forward

1) Second Runway
2) Second Terminal
3) More Toilets
4) Covered multi-storied parking garage
5) Wider distance between aircraft/passenger aprons
6) Build the second tier road for departures
7) More passenger facilities in terminal

We need to monitor the progress on these items.

Tis a long way to catch up to Zurich or Changi..

Please add more ..

^^vertical separation of arrival and departure areas at least in the second phase

Above news is from DH, have pasted the text from Bangalorebuzz blog as I couldn't find the link on DH site.

According to the report, only Chennai sector seems to be affected. Data on Hyderabad and Kochi is inconclusive, as of now. Hubli and Mangalore don't seem to be affected.

Naveen, finally Iam glad that we are coming to the fact that short hauls are getting affected. Hyderabad, Kochi, Coimbatore, Trivandrum etc. are all affected but because of ATF hike it is masked. Once the LCCs start coming back to normalcy trying to bring back more flights on these routes, then we will see the real effect on these sectors; I mean empty flights to BIA.



Do we've data before and after BIAL opening on no. of flights on regional routes, their occupancy levels and total passengers on these routes? We can then make comparisons and cost-benefit analysis of re-opening HAL. All we are considering till now is anecdotal evidence that people on regional routes are being severely affected by BIAL.

Not true. Many low cost airlines have clearly hinted the reason for withdrawal from BIA like poor connectivity to city for lower passenger loads. For that BIAL has to first agree to get out of its mindset and be open to HAL. Then only such a study can be done.

1) Belongs to the Central Govt which decides its ultimate use, not the people of Bluru or GoK

COmeon, stop posting such false statements, buddy. I can understand your eagerness to BIAL continuing its monopoly but you dont have to slam HAL with false lies to achieve that purpose.

Everybody knows that Central govt. through MoCA has already indicated its willingness to operate HAL airport for smaller aircrafts like ATR and even proposed to BIAL but your BIAL rejected that suggestion. So, please dont come again and post the same false lie again:bash:



2) Distance argument is bogus. People living near HAL find it convenient. The rest have a nightmarish commute getting there. The commute problem is best addressed by the State/City Govt.

Anbody staying within citylimits of Bangalore takes not more than 1 hour to reach HAL airport. Whereas to reach BIAL, it may take upto 3 hours by road from within city limits.

And if you stay nearby BIAL and want BIAL for use, then by same logic people staying near HAL have all right to ask for HAL airport. You have no right to ask people near HAL to stop using HAL airport.


3) Infrastructure at HAL is lacking. No adequate parking, passenger convenience is horrible. Upgrading any of these will require huge sums of money.

People are not asking for upgradation of HAL. They are ready to use HAL airport as it was the day it was forcibly shut by BIAL.


4) Reopening LCC makes no sense for HAL. The revenue is paltry - it is LCC remember. The additional burden of servicing LCC does not justify its revenue.


If the revwnue is so paltry, why your BIAL is not allowing HAL to function? Isnot it crookedness to put obstacles on HAL reopening for the sake of windfall profits that BIAL is going after?



1) BIAL cannot handle traffic volumes of Bluru. Completely false and mere propaganda. BIAL has oodles of space, and it can expand to meet the volume of traffic. In fact, it has started phase 2 of the plan to expand.


Reports have revealed actual capacity of BIAL to be inadequate to handle the growing traffic of Bangalore. BIAL has not officially announced its second phase expansion and again you are lying about second phase.



2) BIAL is too far away. What do you expect, all airports worldwide are far away and BIAL is well within the norms of distance from city. In fact it is only 40km away. This is best addressed by City/State infrastructure plan. At least, the approach roads are modern and adequate to the airport. Also people who travel by air can afford the commute whichever way they deem.


In many cities, if a big airport is built far away from the city, it is made sure that very good world class connectivity ( by means of expressway or metro link) is established before opening such an airport or alternatively a small regional airport functions at city centre to cater to the needs of short haul passengers. In the case of Bangalore we neither have good road connectivity nor rail connectivity and alas the airport operator BIAL is taking a hardline stand against a regional airport functioning also. This is nothing but blackmailing Bangalore people.


3) BIAL has killed regional traffic. Not true. It is entirely upto LCC to make it happen.

BIAL has killed short haul traffic. 150% correct. LCC fares are always lower than normal airline fares whether ATF hiked or not. In the current situtation, ATF hike has contributed to some reduction of flights all over country and airport related problems has contributed to withdrawal of many flights from BIA. ATF hike problems seem to have masked the BIA related problems now. Maybe BIA is lucky this time but once LCC traffic becomes normal in the country again we will see much more deterioration in short haul traffic at BIA.

BIA can take care of short haul passengers, this is just a cheap propaganda spread by selected few.

This is the biggest joke of this year 2008. Man, I think your statement should go to guiness book of records.

Lie, lies and super lies seems to be the chosen way of BIAL and its petty supporters. These coterie of people say BIAL can handle everything in this world, be it 10 million pax, 12 million pax or even 20 million pax :)
Dude, please understand that if you tell a lie thousand times, it still cannot become become truth.

When many LCC airlines have clearly said that BIAL problems (mainly connectivity to city) is the main factor for reduced passenger load in short haulk flights, what else do you need as proof that BIAL itself is the reason for dwindling short haul passenger loads and flights?

According to various BIAL experiences that have been posted lately, distance and connectivity doesn't seem to be an issue anymore

2 first hand experiences
my in-laws:

Arrived at BIA from Mumbai for the 1st time at BIA. Were very impressed by the new airport. Found the arrivals area very clean, spacious and functional. Were initially skeptical of the distance of the airport from the city. But, were very happy with the bus connectivity provided by BMTC. Took the bus and got off in an hour at Mekhri circle hence did not mind the distance.

http://praja.in/bangalore/discuss/2008/07/bial-experiences-suggestions-improvements-based-those-experiences


What is the point upto Mekhri circle? The real traffic crawls begin from Mekhri circle, isnot it? It takes another 1:30 hours to reach JP Nagar during peak time then the total time taken is 2:30hr .

COmeon, stop posting such false statements, buddy. I can understand your eagerness to BIAL continuing its monopoly but you dont have to slam HAL with false lies to achieve that purpose.
So, please dont come again and post the same false lie again:bash:



Anbody staying within citylimits of Bangalore takes not more than 1 hour to reach HAL airport. Whereas to reach BIAL, it may take upto 3 hours by road from within city limits.





Hmmmm.....

Naveen, finally Iam glad that we are coming to the fact that short hauls are getting affected. Hyderabad, Kochi, Coimbatore, Trivandrum etc. are all affected but because of ATF hike it is masked. Once the LCCs start coming back to normalcy trying to bring back more flights on these routes, then we will see the real effect on these sectors; I mean empty flights to BIA.




Not true. Many low cost airlines have clearly hinted the reason for withdrawal from BIA like poor connectivity to city for lower passenger loads. For that BIAL has to first agree to get out of its mindset and be open to HAL. Then only such a study can be done.

Pls don't try to twist what I'm saying. All I said was the effect of BIAL is inconclusive for all other cities except Chennai. So shall we open HAL to service only Chennai flights? The ATF hike is going to stay in the near future, don't know what you mean by LCCs going back to normalcy. Airlines world over are facing bankruptcy. For someone who is alleging that everything wrong with aviation in B'luru is because of BIAL. the burden of supplying proof rests on you. I'm convinced, with existing data and situation, that we don't need HAL to re-open. Please provide us figures how many people have been adversely affected by closing HAL. Anecdotes don't count. I too can provide many for closing down HAL.
Start with average time taken to HAL and BIAL from all parts of B'luru (take the main residential areas to make your job easier) and list down the comparisons and the routes taken. Let's see how the figures vary as a % of flying time to see if BIAL is worse-off than HAL. You might be surprised to see that distance is a non-issue.

I agree there that distance is a non-issue , ATF prices may never come back down and as you rightly pointed out that airlines the world over as cutting routes , even from IGI and CSIA - and therefore B'lore is no exception to it.

I agree there that distance is a non-issue , ATF prices may never come back down and as you rightly pointed out that airlines the world over as cutting routes , even from IGI and CSIA - and therefore B'lore is no exception to it.

In Delhi we have Palaam for domestic and IGI for Int'l. Palaam is closer to city than IGI and there is a expressway to IGI. Hence public in Delhi donot feel distance as an issue. But here in Bangalore can you tell with confidence distance is not an issue with the kind of traffic and roads in Bangalore.

All I said was the effect of BIAL is inconclusive for all other cities except Chennai. So shall we open HAL to service only Chennai flights?

Why not? Let us start with HAL for Chennai flights first. And then slowly once we findout that other cities nearby also are affected, may be those cities can be brought in to HAL connectivity.

Chennai has many number of flights from Bangalore and hence the reduction in passenger load is easily visible. This doesnot mean flights to other short haul destinations are going to fine. flights are insufficient to many nearby destinations tehreby running full. Once this ATF high season is over, when airlines try to bring back its normal schedule, we will see the reduced pasenger load to otehr nearby cities also.



The ATF hike is going to stay in the near future, don't know what you mean by LCCs going back to normalcy. Airlines world over are facing bankruptcy. For someone who is alleging that everything wrong with aviation in B'luru is because of BIAL. the burden of supplying proof rests on you.

Please note a few airlines have clearly said in news reports that the reason for cutting down flights to BIA was airport related connectivity issues and not ATF. What further proof do you need?

LCCs are going to stay and come back as announced by many airline industry captains like Capt. Gopinath of deccan and the recent investment by US billionaire Wilbur Ross’s in SpiceJet thereby saving its life. For further information go through this report:

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Spicejet-deal-may-again-kick-off-large-investments-in-aviation/335979/


I'm convinced, with existing data and situation, that we don't need HAL to re-open. Please provide us figures how many people have been adversely affected by closing HAL. Anecdotes don't count. I too can provide many for closing down HAL.
Start with average time taken to HAL and BIAL from all parts of B'luru (take the main residential areas to make your job easier) and list down the comparisons and the routes taken. Let's see how the figures vary as a % of flying time to see if BIAL is worse-off than HAL. You might be surprised to see that distance is a non-issue.

No need of rocket science to find out travel times. Check any encyclopedia or wikipedia, you will find out that HAL airport is 6km from MG Road compared to BIAL around 35km away. Thus, BIAL is 6 times faroff than HAL airport from MG Road. And the city roads are all almost same with traffic crawls upto Mekhri circle(for BIAL) and upto Mayo Hall (for HAL airport). With flyover at Indiranagar Junction, the old HAL airport road has become signal free from Domlur till Kempfort. Any Bangalorean will easily figure out the difference in travel time to these airports.

In Delhi we have Palaam for domestic and IGI for Int'l. Palaam is closer to city than IGI and there is a expressway to IGI. Hence public in Delhi donot feel distance as an issue. But here in Bangalore can you tell with confidence distance is not an issue with the kind of traffic and roads in Bangalore.

Dear MPVP,

I have been following this thread and its earlier locked version. Though I was disgusted with some people's blind arguments, especially against BIAL, I refrained myself from jumping into this argument, which I feel is not based on facts.

But your above comments forced me to reply to you. You have talked about Palam and IGI airport being at seperate places at Delhi, Palam is closer to City and hence "public in Delhi donot feel distance as an issue". Either you have never visited Delhi or you are conveniently and DELIBERATLY telling a BLATANT LIE.

At Delhi, International terminal is referred as IGI and Domestic terminal is referred as Palam. Both of them are side by side and are definitely not at any long distance. So your argument that Palam is closer to City is not right. It all depends on from which side you are entering the airport. If you are entering from Cantonment, you will get Palam first. If you are coming fom Dhaula Kuan (which is the normal point for people coming from Parliament and Cannaught Place), you get to a point where Palam is 2 Kms away and IGI is 4 KMs away and then you branch off based on your destination. So i donot see any major difference in that. And finally, if you are coming from Gurgaon then you get to IGI first and then to Palam.

The airport is designed where both domestic and international terminal is side by side and distance between them is irrelevant.

Coming to Expressway, the expressway is built to have easy accessibility from Rewadi / Gurgaon till Air Force Hospital which is a bit further away from Palam. It doesnot connect the airports entrance directly but for residents of Gurgaon and nearby localities, it provides faster way to reach airport. What it means is that this is not a dedicated expressway for airport connectivity. You need to branch off from the expressway and travel atleast 2 - 4 kms to reach either IGI or Palam.

I have posted the above definitely not to get into an argument with you or your fellow bloggers but to just highlight that some people are interpreting / expressing / twisting the facts in such a way to help towards their arguments. If the discussion needs to be healthy, then we need to refrain from that.

I do not wish to get into the argument of HAL vs BIAL, but only request all to be more fair in putting the facts.

Regrads,
Ullasa Vadan

In Delhi we have Palaam for domestic and IGI for Int'l. Palaam is closer to city than IGI and there is a expressway to IGI. Hence public in Delhi donot feel distance as an issue. But here in Bangalore can you tell with confidence distance is not an issue with the kind of traffic and roads in Bangalore.

I don't know what you are talking about , sorry for going off topic people but I must clarify that Palam was renamed IGI and they are not two separate airports , In case you confuse it with Safdurjung which is no longer in use.

Domestic Flights use Terminal 1 and Int'l use T2 and from any given point in the city it takes roughly the same time , expressway caters to both.

Traffic and Road is the govt. problem , BIAL cannot be inconvenienced because of that , if BIAL was not capable of handling traffic and that can be proven beyond reasonable doubt , then open HAL for sure.

Not for a miniscule no. of short haul passengers to places which are no big industrial centeres where time is money.

I myslf had a few problems while going to Mangalore on Jet airways but it's still not a good enough reason to open HAL just for the short haul passengers , either open it in full and allow 2 airport's to grow together with B'lore or just let BIAL operate in peace.

In Delhi we have Palaam for domestic and IGI for Int'l. Palaam is closer to city than IGI and there is a expressway to IGI. Hence public in Delhi donot feel distance as an issue. But here in Bangalore can you tell with confidence distance is not an issue with the kind of traffic and roads in Bangalore.

I guess you mistook Terminal-1 as Palam and Terminal-2 as IGI. Both are side by side. Terminal-1 was earlier called Palam airport. In 1996, Terminal-2 was built that was 4 times the size of Terminal-1 and re-named as IGI airport. The biggest advantage of IGI is that it has two runways operational and CATIIIB ILS landing system available.

Of course as you say, Delhi-Gurgaon 8 lane access controlled expressway helps the air passengers by a smooth fast ride from the city to IGI airport unlike BIAL thereby reducing connectivity problems to IGI airport to a large extent.

In many cities, if a big airport is built far away from the city, it is made sure that very good world class connectivity ( by means of expressway or metro link) is established before opening such an airport or alternatively a small regional airport functions at city centre to cater to the needs of short haul passengers. In the case of Bangalore we neither have good road connectivity nor rail connectivity and alas the airport operator BIAL is taking a hardline stand against a regional airport functioning also. This is nothing but blackmailing Bangalore people.



Very well said, Mpvp.

As an expert said" A new international world class airport without a world class connectivity to city centre is as good as none".

Road/rail connectivity to city is very important for any world class airport to be competitive. With 10 years in hand, government or BIAL failed to address this important infrastructure needed for the airport. Nobody is going to believe that by forcing HAL shutdown, pressure tactics is going to improve road connectivity to BIAL. What is needed is planning by BIAL and government authorities as is done in Delhi for IGI airport. And please stop blaming HAL airport as a cause for poor connectivity to BIAL.

I don't know how much the Delhi-Gurgaon expressway has helped people reach IGI or Palam faster, the expressway starts only from Dhaula Kuan and doesn't extend till CP. So to get onto the expressway, people spend time on the regular Delhi roads. The expressway has just made it an all-car zone with bottlenecks at entry/exit points in Delhi and Gurgaon.
For people advocating dedicated expressways/rail to BIAL from ORR, its important that it doesn't serve just BIAL but also NH traffic, otherwise its going to be a costly white elephant.

Traffic and Road is the govt. problem , BIAL cannot be inconvenienced because of that , if BIAL was not capable of handling traffic and that can be proven beyond reasonable doubt , then open HAL for sure.

Not for a miniscule no. of short haul passengers to places which are no big industrial centeres where time is money.

We are talking about important/tourist/pilgrim/industrial/state capital centres around Bangalore like Chennai, Hyderabad, Hubli, Coimbatore, Pune, Mangalore, Madurai, Trichy, Kochi, Trivandrum, Calicut and Tirupati. The combined traffic to these cities from Bangalore is not miniscule as you say. And time is money for these short haul air passengers as they have other alternative competitive modes of transport like rail and buses.

As an expert said" A new international world class airport without a world class connectivity to city centre is as good as none".

... so quotes somebody.

Well he and his coterie - a selected regular few - 3 people on this forum to be precise have argued many times that "BIAL is not a world class airport".
If " BIAL is not a world class airport" according to this small coterie, then why are they talking about " A new international world class airport without a world class connectivity to city centre is as good as none" wrt to BIAL now ?. Thats applicable only the day "BIAL becomes a world class airport", aint it? .

Let me elaborate what the trio have said so far: Everbody else but the trio "should not call BIAL a world class airport due to its inadequate facilities(size, cargo, toilets, counters etc)". But only the trio "can refer to BIAL as a world class airport" when they want to criticize bad connectivity (when convenient to them). In other words they want to have the cake and eat it too - which is called HYPOCRISY. Thats just one example out of their countless gaffes.

Note: Words in quotes mean statements by members of the trio alone and no one else.

We are talking about important/tourist/pilgrim/industrial/state capital centres around Bangalore like Chennai, Hyderabad, Hubli, Coimbatore, Pune, Mangalore, Madurai, Trichy, Kochi, Trivandrum, Calicut and Tirupati. The combined traffic to these cities from Bangalore is not miniscule as you say. And time is money for these short haul air passengers as they have other alternative competitive modes of transport like rail and buses.

Flights to these center's have not stopped altogether , they still go on a very regular basis and anyone who wishes to fly can plan his/her travel 10-15 odd days in advance and pack bags and go.

A hundread Rupess extra for the bus and an extra hours traveling time is hardly a concrete deterrent , the PRICES ARE . Load factor on every single sector has reduced which include Delhi-Mumbai (the busiest). If prices come down then demand will increase (basic economics) and as says the law of Kenseyn law of demand that "Demand creates it's own supply"

It's obvious for a blind man to see that people find it un-viable to fly when prices are soaring.

Why not? Let us start with HAL for Chennai flights first. And then slowly once we findout that other cities nearby also are affected, may be those cities can be brought in to HAL connectivity.


That's a laughable solution mpvp - hilarious to say the least.

You plan to start an airport with only chennai flights starting from it and then SLOWLY find out how other cities are effected , so that means you easily assumed yourself that BIAL is the driving factor behind reduced flights and not ATF , have you undertaken an individual study and if so then I would surely want to look at the reasons behind your study.

Airports are planned and not built on assumptions , gimme a break !!!

Well he and his coterie - a selected regular few - 3 people on this forum to be precise have argued many times that "BIAL is not a world class airport".

It doesnot matter how many handles in this forum are for or against HAL airport. The idea conveyed is more important.


If " BIAL is not a world class airport" according to this small coterie, then why are they talking about " A new international world class airport without a world class connectivity to city centre is as good as none" wrt to BIAL now ?. Thats applicable only the day "BIAL becomes a world class airport", aint it? .


So,finally you accept BIAL is not world class airport though built "accidentally" by so called world experts on airports. What a lovely contradiction from a BIAL monopoly supporter.

And of course we all have an immediate readymade solution by re-opening HAL airport but alas BIAL & its coterie willnot allow such a good thing to happen. They want monopoly of Bangalore traffic even after AAI study has clearly pointed out that BIAL capacity is only 9.87 million pax compared to Bangalore traffic of 10.2 million handled last year 2007-08.

So, the ultimate sufferers are Bangalore public at the mercy of BIAL.

so that means you easily assumed yourself that BIAL is the driving factor behind reduced flights and not ATF , have you undertaken an individual study and if so then I would surely want to look at the reasons behind your study.


Mpvp is right that BIAL together with HAL shut down is driving away short haul flights. Please check the news report below:


SpiceJet cancels 15 flights in South

Our Bureau
Bangalore, June 2

Low cost airlines have starting turning away from the new international airports in Hyderabad and Bangalore with SpiceJet having cancelled nearly 15 flights in the South, with most of them from these two airports.

SpiceJet chief commercial officer, Mr Samyukth Sridharan, told Business Line that the airline now runs only one flight out of Bangalore and Hyderabad while flights to Chennai from Hyderabad and from Bangalore to Kochi have been cancelled.

“We expected the demand from these two new airports to drop which is what has happened,” he said. He said since the opening of these two airports, loads have dropped between 6 per cent and 8 per cent. The airline will continue to take a closer look at each and every flight and decide which one of these are viable. “This will be continuous process. If we don’t take tough measures, our sustainability will be impacted,” he said.

Capt G.R. Gopinath, the Vice-Chairman of Deccan Aviation, which runs Simplyfly Deccan, said the airline may have to relook at some of the short haul flights.

“We knew this would happen. We had predicted that the new international airport in Bangalore would lose passengers not to other airports but to buses and trains, which is what is happening now,” he said.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/06/03/stories/2008060351161000.htm

Flights to these center's have not stopped altogether , they still go on a very regular basis and anyone who wishes to fly can plan his/her travel 10-15 odd days in advance and pack bags and go.

Flights to some destinations have altogether stopped and to some other destinations drastically reduced even when tickets are in high demand. This has the spiral effect and has caused further rise in ticket fares. We can see unusually high prices in short haul sectors as a combined result of all these factors. In addition to this, passengers hesitate to travel to the inconveniently located BIAL and catch a 30minute or 1 hour flight. End result is massive move towards rail and volvo buses to short haul destinations.

I only wish the situation eases out in near future at the earliest and normalcy restored. And sanity prevails by re-opening HAL airport for short hauls.



A hundread Rupess extra for the bus and an extra hours traveling time is hardly a concrete deterrent , the PRICES ARE . Load factor on every single sector has reduced which include Delhi-Mumbai (the busiest). If prices come down then demand will increase (basic economics) and as says the law of Kenseyn law of demand that "Demand creates it's own supply"
.

You are right that price increase across the board has affected passenger load in general. But please also note that LCC airlines have still lower base price than the normal airlines and they keep the price differential as before.

Below is a rather comprehensive list of Short haul flights which has been operating from BIAL , last updated on 3rd July.



BIAL to Mangalore

06:25 Kingfisher Daily

08:55 Air Deccan Daily

09:20 Jetair Daily

16:40 Air Deccan Daily

17:45 Jetair Daily Ex Sat

19:30 Kingfisher Daily 20:30 IT2443

BIAL to Hubli

Kingfisher (Daily) – 09:50 (Daily)

BIAL to Coimbatore

06:00 Air Deccan Daily

06:30 Jetair Daily

10:20 Air Sahara Daily

18:10 Air Deccan Daily

BIAL to Madurai

06:30 Air Deccan Daily

11:10 Paramount Daily

18:00 Air Deccan Daily

BIAL to Trichy

05:55 Air Deccan Daily

20:35 Air Deccan Daily

BIAL to Kochi

05:55 Air Deccan Daily

06:00 Kingfisher Daily

09:55 Indigo Daily

10:15 Jetair Daily

11:20 Kingfisher Daily

11:50 Indian Daily

19:00 Air Deccan Daily

19:25 Jetair Daily

BIAL to Trivandrum

06:20 Kingfisher Daily

10:15 Jetair Daily

18:40 Kingfisher Daily

BIAL to Pune

06:00 Kingfisher Daily

10:10 Indigo Daily Ex Sat

11:30 Indian Daily Ex Sat

11:30 Jetair Daily Ex Sat

11:40 Spicejet Daily Ex Sat

12:55 Air Deccan Sun

13:20 Air Deccan Daily Ex Sat/Sun

16:00 Kingfisher Daily

17:15 Air Deccan Sat

19:20 Indigo Sat



BIAL to Chennai

03:30 Air India *Tue

03:30 Air India *Tue

06:00 Kingfisher Daily

06:30 Jetair Daily

07:30 Kingfisher Daily

08:50 Air Deccan Daily

09:50 Jetair Daily

11:00 Kingfisher Daily

11:10 Paramount Daily

12:10 Air Deccan Daily

12:35 Spicejet Daily

14:00 Kingfisher Daily Ex Sat/Sun

15:00 Kingfisher Daily Ex Sun

15:25 Indigo Daily Ex Sat

, 15:30 Kingfisher Sun

15:35 Jetair Daily Ex Sat

15:40 Jetair Sat

16:00 Indigo Sat

, 17:20 Kingfisher Daily

17:30 Jetair Daily

18:40 Paramount Daily

18:55 Air Deccan Daily

19:25 Jetair Daily

20:40 Kingfisher Daily

20:55 Air Sahara Daily

21:00 Kingfisher Daily

22:00 Air Deccan Daily

22:25 Jetair Daily

Now it is plain to see that flights are on a fairly regular basis and anyone wishing to go to one of these sectors can at most of the times get a ticket even at a short notice.

Price rise is of course an ATF related issue and due to this price rise the LCC differential has as good as vanished .

For eg. - B'lore to M'lore costs Rs. 3300 on Air Deccan and Rs. 3400 on Kingfisher and these can be compared on any short haul sector.

From personal experience I can tell that these flights hardly ever went full , even from HAL and load factor was more those days because tickets were cheaper. Those who are regular fliers of these sectors still fly on them i.e business persons .

The ones who have been effected are Tourists and casual travelers who can no longer afford it .

I've got rather bored of this thread now so won't post anymore but one thing I'd say is that with each passing day it is becoming more and more unlikely that HAL will be used for anything other than defense purposes , the equipment there has been either taken off or getting deteriorated by the day.

Noises which were earlier very vocal have now subsided and so called "IT honchos" have quietened down , and even if HAL had to be re-opened then BIAL would wave the CA in their face and take the center to the court where it may drag on for years , there is really no good coming from that.

B'lore has many more pressing issue like Space crunch . lack of satellite towns , road and metro infrastructure , even water and power , the city at this pace will come to a standstill in no more than 10 years.

The State govt. should shift it's focus from airport drama now and look at these things which are much more likely to diminish B'lore growth prospects than BIAL.

I just wanted to record my experience with travelling in to BIA - This is an account of what I felt and is my personal opinion only.

After opening of BIA, I have travelled to Bangalore twice. All my flights (arrival & departures) are in the night. I live in Rajajinagar and both the times, I used BMTC when I arrived to get down at Navrang stop (Rs 125) and MERU taxi service to go from home to BIA(Rs 600 - excellent service even in the night). Travel time was 35-40 minutes.

As an international traveller who travels at least 5 times a year to & from Bangalore, I now definetely prefer to travel via BIA. I usually do not care much about the airport terminal as long as I get through in time and with out mosquito bites.

However, being a Bangalorien, I did feel the we have been given a raw deal when it comes to terminal building. BIA may be good functionally but they seem to have a bad terminal building. If BIA & Govt representitives in the BIA board had given a little more importance to having a better terminal with a vertical separation as a minimum, they would not have had so much bad publicity & bad response from the public. This does not mean this one is bad but definetely could have been much better.

Once inside the terminal, one can not help but start comparing it with other international terminal buildings. In terms of the looks and professional finish, it falls way below other international terminals. The finishing touches given are not professional in terms of workmanship. While arriving, you can very clearly see the open, uneven ceiling boxes of duty free shops from the top. The way they have fixed the camera near the baggage claim is not good. Functionally the airport seem to be ok.

Overall the experience was ok and I hope they will not do the mistake of replicating the exact same terminal as suggested by Aviation Ministrer a couple of days back when they go for expansion and instead go for a better design.

I just wanted to record my experience with travelling in to BIA - This is an account of what I felt and is my personal opinion only.

After opening of BIA, I have travelled to Bangalore twice. All my flights (arrival & departures) are in the night. I live in Rajajinagar and both the times, I used BMTC when I arrived to get down at Navrang stop (Rs 125) and MERU taxi service to go from home to BIA(Rs 600 - excellent service even in the night). Travel time was 35-40 minutes.

As an international traveller who travels at least 5 times a year to & from Bangalore, I now definetely prefer to travel via BIA. I usually do not care much about the airport terminal as long as I get through in time and with out mosquito bites.

However, being a Bangalorien, I did feel the we have been given a raw deal when it comes to terminal building. BIA may be good functionally but they seem to have a bad terminal building. If BIA & Govt representitives in the BIA board had given a little more importance to having a better terminal with a vertical separation as a minimum, they would not have had so much bad publicity & bad response from the public. This does not mean this one is bad but definetely could have been much better.

Once inside the terminal, one can not help but start comparing it with other international terminal buildings. In terms of the looks and professional finish, it falls way below other international terminals. The finishing touches given are not professional in terms of workmanship. While arriving, you can very clearly see the open, uneven ceiling boxes of duty free shops from the top. The way they have fixed the camera near the baggage claim is not good. Functionally the airport seem to be ok.

Overall the experience was ok and I hope they will not do the mistake of replicating the exact same terminal as suggested by Aviation Ministrer a couple of days back when they go for expansion and instead go for a better design.

Request you to send your views to BIAL - specially about not replicating mistakes as our CA minister wants or said without thinking.

In Delhi we have Palaam for domestic and IGI for Int'l. Palaam is closer to city than IGI and there is a expressway to IGI. Hence public in Delhi donot feel distance as an issue. But here in Bangalore can you tell with confidence distance is not an issue with the kind of traffic and roads in Bangalore.

Delhi has two airports???? Have you even been to Delhi?

Anbody staying within citylimits of Bangalore takes not more than 1 hour to reach HAL airport. Whereas to reach BIAL, it may take upto 3 hours by road from within city limits.
.


less than 1 hr ? thats surprising.

hmmm... maybe its not really that surprising after all since its coming from you. Can you please tell us the boundaries of your version of Bangalore city limits. I presume Sadashivngar is outside of your city limits, I guess.

So you suddenly decide to conveniently turn a blind eye to your own 'not so genuine' statement about "cheap" remarks ?. Not just this one - you have been consistently contradicting your own statements (which by the way lack perspective) for months (how very cunning).

It doesnot matter how many handles in this forum are for or against HAL airport. The idea conveyed is more important.
In general- A good idea (specially an idea(subject) that has been examined in such a long brainstorming session that's been running on for months) should be popular, aint it? . That apart, anyway i dont see any point in your arguments(this is not just my view)- your arguments are just circular and irrational. Further, You wanted "Only AAI" to run HAL - Stalinist leanings!, i among majority of people dont take such Stalinist leanings seriously(because its irrational).


So,finally you accept BIAL is not world class airport though built "accidentally" by so called world experts on airports. What a lovely contradiction from a BIAL monopoly supporter.
I did not and do not accept anything that ur comment above claims - from your above comment i only understand and accept that 'either you are a liar' or 'you are mentally incompetent' to understand.
My note which you conveniently ignored:
Note: Words in quotes mean statements by members of the trio alone and no one else.
Above dont appear English to you?. You know what 'double quotes' mean? - its clear even to a child. you're a guy who is capable of looking at dog and calling it a cat.

We will come to my views later- i pointed out that you were playing truent and contradicting yourself - you think if you divert cunningly, people will lose track of what you stated?. Why are you saying both "it is not world class" and also "it is world class" - first you finish that. Why the lies?.

You wanted to know my view: for that i suggest you read all my posts - they have been consistent in accepting the truth about BIA whether it was good or bad ( i wont repeat all that here)- and also whenever a genuine someone pointed out my mistake, i acknowledged that and corrected immediately.



And of course we all have an immediate readymade solution by re-opening HAL airport but alas BIAL & its coterie willnot allow such a good thing to happen. They want monopoly of Bangalore traffic even after AAI study has clearly pointed out that BIAL capacity is only 9.87 million pax compared to Bangalore traffic of 10.2 million handled last year 2007-08.
Stop saying "we all, we all" - you, going by the evidence on this blog are not the mouth piece of everybody or the general public. Its only 'your' ready made solution" to suit 'your' personal needs.

So, the ultimate sufferers are Bangalore public at the mercy of BIAL.
Bangalore is at the mercy of nobody contrary to your sensationalization, thats also how capitalism works - (long term contracts(30 yrs etc) ) - thats how it works in many countries, and work well it did and still does in all those developed countries - and and people there are happy with the functioning and service provided by those so called "monopoly" airports. There or here, promoters can be thrown out after being duely compensated - if they are really doing a bad job or harming the economy by their incompetence.
By your own yardstick- so far we were at the mercy of AAI for decades- they have built inefficient piles of concrete all over India(among the worst airports in the world) 'in the name of high class airports' into which officially went 100s of 1000s of crores of tax payers's money of which a large percentage is unaccounted for(they royally sc***ed the public)- and now because those airports are highly incompetent we are going for new ones now(i.e, the cost the public have to pay for irrational socialism). And yet you want no one else but the same bloodsucking AAI to run HAL - what a joke.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here onward i'll reply to you in your own style. If you decide not to talk - i say that's very good.

Thank you mpvp for keeping us entertained, with your boundless humor! :lol:


HAL Belongs to the Central Govt - false statements. {curious to know just as to who it belongs to}

slam HAL with false lies to achieve that purpose :lol: :lol: :lol:

to reach BIAL, it may take upto 3 hours by road from within city limits

People are not asking for upgradation of HAL. {oh, people of Bluru, be content with cowsheds}

Reports have revealed actual capacity of BIAL to be inadequate to handle the growing traffic of Bangalore {must be some top secret report }

BIAL has killed short haul traffic. 150% correct. { this sounds like shades of President of Pakistan, Mr Pervez Musharraf, guarantee of >100% - 400% }

Dude, please understand that if you tell a lie thousand times, it still cannot become become truth.


Just look at yourself in the mirror and read the above statement once again. :lol:



When many LCC airlines have clearly said that BIAL problems (mainly connectivity to city) is the main factor for reduced passenger load in short haulk flights,

Looks like you are agreeing that the problem is with the connectivity and not BIAL. BIAL was hired to build and run the airport, and it was the govt's responsibility to resolve connectivity problems. Apparently when BIAL was busy building the airport in 24 months, the govt was sitting on their ass*s drinking their usual by-two or by-three caaffees ! So stop blaming BIAL for everything

... No need of rocket science to find out travel times. Check any encyclopedia or wikipedia, you will find out that HAL airport is 6km from MG Road compared to BIAL around 35km away. Thus, BIAL is 6 times faroff than HAL airport from MG Road. And the city roads are all almost same with traffic crawls upto Mekhri circle(for BIAL) and upto Mayo Hall (for HAL airport). With flyover at Indiranagar Junction, the old HAL airport road has become signal free from Domlur till Kempfort. Any Bangalorean will easily figure out the difference in travel time to these airports.

OK, so what about the folks that live around the Mekhri Circle area (i.e. Bangalore North), or don't they matter? Are you suggesting that their time is somehow less valuable than those that live around HAL airport?

Why not? Let us start with HAL for Chennai flights first. And then slowly once we findout that other cities nearby also are affected, may be those cities can be brought in to HAL connectivity..

So you want to re-open HAL just for Chennai flights? Do you think its feasible for HAL to incur revenues which could be around 10 times less than their actual operating cost? I hope you don't run your own business




No need of rocket science to find out travel times. Check any encyclopedia or wikipedia, you will find out that HAL airport is 6km from MG Road compared to BIAL around 35km away. Thus, BIAL is 6 times faroff than HAL airport from MG Road. .

This is the most retarded reasonings I have heard in awhile. Can you please tell us which encyclopedia you refer to?

Lets say you are traveling at an avg speed of 6km/hr, then it will take 1 hr to reach HAL, and when traveling at an avg of 35km/hr , you would just need 1 hr to reach BIAL also, so according to my calculations, there is no difference in time to reach between HAL & BIAL.

Don't you think your theory above sounds as stupid as mine here?:lol:

i'm surprised everyone still responds to mpvp's posts ... the saga of BIAL-HAL continues nicely here :D

Originally Posted by mpvp

No need of rocket science to find out travel times. Check any encyclopedia or wikipedia, you will find out that HAL airport is 6km from MG Road compared to BIAL around 35km away. Thus, BIAL is 6 times faroff than HAL airport from MG Road. .
So your next venture is going to be rockets? - will you be gone for very long periods of time on trips into space? - just curious, its not as if people will not miss you!.

....................
.......................................................

This is the most retarded reasonings I have heard in awhile. Can you please tell us which encyclopedia you refer to?

Lets say you are traveling at an avg speed of 6km/hr, then it will take 1 hr to reach HAL, and when traveling at an avg of 35km/hr , you would just need 1 hr to reach BIAL also, so according to my calculations, there is no difference in time to reach between HAL & BIAL.

Don't you think your theory above sounds as stupid as mine here?:lol:

His smart alec or maybe stupid logic:
1) He talks to you about travel times, but asks you to check for distances. What he leaves out is the nature of relationship between travel time to HAL and the distances of the routes he mentioned. To his world class brilliant or maybe crooked mind its a straightforward relationship between distance and time - this time. For him - the third factor known as traffic comes into play only when he wants to inflate travel times to BIA when he wants to blame connectivity.
World over they are trying to ease traffic inside the city by removing removable traffic to outside the city- but this guy wants to have the cake and eat it as well in everything he touches, wants to have the best of all worlds in anything and everything - all this suddenly from a guy who all these years did not care(and still does not care to) to question AAI, third class civic amenities, bad roads, shabby trains, power cuts etc --- a laundry list of shabby services which he was happy to live with.
2) When someone else talked about Mekhri circle he asked "what about other parts of Bangalore, why only Mekhri circle?" - as if questioning is the monopoly of only this guy. But same rules dont apply to Mr 150% and so he chooses as reference M.G Road which is ridiculously close to HAL compared to many other parts of the city.

I hope you don't run your own business
THE man did say he was a businessman.
And i wondered if this was not just one more of his fantastic fabrications.

For those who were opposing that two airports cannot function in a city, here we go:

http://business-standard.com/common/news_article.php?tab=r&autono=328339&subLeft=1&leftnm=3


Mumbai gets approval for second airport
BS Reporter / Mumbai July 10, 2008, 0:57 IST

The Maharashtra cabinet today gave formal approval to City and Industrial Development Corporation's (CIDCO) plans to develop second airport for the city in Navi Mumbai area. The cabinet approval allows CIDCO to call global bids for this Rs 10,000-crore project once they receive detailed project report (DPR).

At present, Mumbai airport has capacity to handle 20 million passengers annually, which will go up after modernisation to 40 million. However, by 2013 this capacity will be completely utilised and there will be need to have second air port.

If things go by schedule prepared by the CIDCO, airport will be operational by 2012 and it will generate 10 million traffic in the year of inception.
mpvp,

Suggest you read the post I put in at praja -> http://bangalore.praja.in/bangalore/blog/devesh/2008/07/14/fuel-populism-killing-air-traffic#comment-6533
And, it is nobody's point of view. Those are just plain facts which of course nobody can make another person see reason by hammering :). We could very well argue for a third airport for Bangalore :cheers: ...it would be going overboard isn't it? Please give me a reason why Bangalore cannot have 3 commercial airports? And of course, how about having freeways for Bangalore first before thinking about multiple airports, after all decent cities abroad have them.

Both of them are side by side and are definitely not at any long distance.
A small clarification if I may...the domestic and international terminals are not side by side but are on opposite ends of the airfield in Delhi. The intl. terminal is to the south of runway 10 and the domestic terminals are to the north of runway 28. But yes, I agree with you on the post in general.

No need of rocket science to find out travel times. Check any encyclopedia or wikipedia, you will find out that HAL airport is 6km from MG Road compared to BIAL around 35km away.
Let's forget the science part of it for the moment, we would definitely need nothing short of a rocket to travel 6kms in reasonable time if nothing is done about the roads :)

Jeeezz. Can you atleast change the title of your thread. The appropriate title for this thread should be "BIAL vs HAL"

There was a reason why the previous BIAL thread was closed and if you want to start a new thread for your propoganda purposes atleast come up with an original name. "Bengaluru International Airport (BIAL) Part 2 " ? C'mon

Surely, in fact the thread should renamed

"BIAL,HAL discussions - justifying each one by painting the other in bad light".

HAL does not hold up on it's own merit. HAL still loses in the look good by painting BIA bad scenario. BIA wins hands down on it's own merit as well as look good by painting HAL bad scenarios. My family members had a first hand experience with BIA in the last 10 days. At first they were apprehensive of the distance, but now they love the new airport and heaved a sigh of relief. I have posted their experience here at - http://praja.in/bangalore/discuss/2008/07/bial-experiences-suggestions-improvements-based-those-experiences Please do continue sharing you experiences there plus suggestions for improvements.

Looks like you are agreeing that the problem is with the connectivity and not BIAL. BIAL was hired to build and run the airport, and it was the govt's responsibility to resolve connectivity problems. Apparently when BIAL was busy building the airport in 24 months, the govt was sitting on their ass*s drinking their usual by-two or by-three caaffees ! So stop blaming BIAL for everything

The problem is with poor connectivity , undercapacity and nowhere near "World class" airport standards of BIA.

Government is stakeholder of BIAL and hence BIAL cannot escape from the connectivity issue.

And what was BIAL building for 24 months... nothing more than a world class cowshed? :bash:

So you want to re-open HAL just for Chennai flights? Do you think its feasible for HAL to incur revenues which could be around 10 times less than their actual operating cost? I hope you don't run your own business

Comeon dude, you know very well the hardline stand of BIAL. Forget chennai, with the mindset BIAL has , they are not even allowing one commercial flight to take off from HAL.




Lets say you are traveling at an avg speed of 6km/hr, then it will take 1 hr to reach HAL, and when traveling at an avg of 35km/hr , you would just need 1 hr to reach BIAL also, so according to my calculations, there is no difference in time to reach between HAL & BIAL.


Hey..hey....cool down. Just look at this way. Take the speed within bangalore points I mentioned (mekhri circle, mayo hall etc.) as average 25km/hr and rest beyond at 60km/hr( which is the maximum legal speed allowed in National Highways for car).

And just come out of your mindset that you can travel at zooming 150km/hr through Bellary road to BIA forever; it is not going to last long with heavy casualties reported and Police already with their speedguns on job in the NH7.

1) He talks to you about travel times, but asks you to check for distances. What he leaves out is the nature of relationship between travel time to HAL and the distances of the routes he mentioned. To his world class brilliant or maybe crooked mind its a straightforward relationship between distance and time - this time. For him - the third factor known as traffic comes into play only when he wants to inflate travel times to BIA when he wants to blame connectivity..



First off all Mr.Smarty, understand we Bangaloreans donot have an access controlled expressway, similar to that in Delhi, from the so called "world class airport" in BIA to city. This itself is enough to take Bangalore , BIA and its cronies to stone age. So much for a world class airport by a world class promoter and some cronies supporting it. To me you talk more like a caveman in stone age than Mr.James Bond of this century.

Now coming to the point. Within the city, the traffic crawls in many stretches and we know flyovers at many crucial junctions came as a breather. And HAL airport road has the advantage of such a flyover in Indiranagar junction.

Whether you like it or not, Most of air passengers originate from eastern and southern parts of Bangalore.:) Considering the traffic crawl spread over the city, the new Koramangala inner ring road and the Indiranagar flyover, it is obvious that the time taken to reach HAL airport will be 30-45 minutes for more than 75% of the air passengers.

Most of air passengers originate from eastern and southern parts of Bangalore.the time taken to reach HAL airport will be 30-45 minutes for more than 75% of the air passengers.

You just made this sh$t up, where is the report that states this fabulous statistic, pray tell. Moreover, why is commute time an airport issue, it is state/city infrastructure issue, write to your Pujya politician/Boor-o-crat and have them look into this problem/issue. Oh, please quote your statistic (most, 75% etc) to them 150% convincingly.

[Whether you like it or not, Most of air passengers originate from eastern and southern parts of Bangalore.:) Considering the traffic crawl spread over the city, the new Koramangala inner ring road and the Indiranagar flyover, .[/QUOTE]

Is this true or made up??? pls give the link.....theres traffic jam evrywhere in bangalore not only in koramangala or something!!!!

where is the report that states this fabulous statistic, pray tell.

There was a survey done in March 1920 and this was the conclusion.
MPVP ,please provide them the link and also give them the study done in 1942on using the Inner Ring Road as Runway 2 for HAL.

See we all can Joke.:banana:

Out of topic but i though it was interesting:

If at all there is the threat of being at the mercy of foreigners it is only due to incidents like these:


Tribe takes on global mining firm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7486252.stm

Such companies have problems even inside the UK(the court system there often were at loggerheads with them). But in India where the corrupt unpatriotic police indulge in mafia style activities and shamelessly assault the very people they are supposed to protect - these companies find it a lot more easy. Same old story like the sellout to the British Raj.

Government is stakeholder of BIAL and hence BIAL cannot escape from the connectivity issue.

And what was BIAL building for 24 months... nothing more than a world class cowshed? :bash:

Thanks MPVP, for keeping us entertained:lol:

Whether you like it or not, Most of air passengers originate from eastern and southern parts of Bangalore.:) Considering the traffic crawl spread over the city, the new Koramangala inner ring road and the Indiranagar flyover, it is obvious that the time taken to reach HAL airport will be 30-45 minutes for more than 75% of the air passengers.

You just cooked this up. Didn't you? Anyways looks like some of us here got a good laugh at your expense, so thank you. :cheers:

Article (http://www.livemint.com/2008/07/17222015/Faraway-airports-fly-by-me.html)

Nice article about travel times to and from BIAL. The author talks about her journey from MAA to DEL via BLR and HYD.

Quoting the last para here.

City centres, especially urban areas that continue to grow, are no place for airports. These cities and their airport promoters did not adequately plan every detail in time for the opening — but now the facilities seem to be working just fine. It’s time for passengers to quit complaining, embrace the new mode...

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/07/16/images/2008071650520901.jpg

While the global passenger traffic growth rates were 7.4 per cent in 2007, in India the growth rate was 22 per cent, about three times that of the global average. Projections made by the Bangalore and Hyderabad airports (an average 15 year CAGR growth rate of 8 per cent) indicate that the passenger growth rate in India is expected to be very robust in the coming decade.

clicky (http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/07/16/stories/2008071650520900.htm)

Whether you like it or not, Most of air passengers originate from eastern and southern parts of Bangalore.:) Considering the traffic crawl spread over the city, the new Koramangala inner ring road and the Indiranagar flyover, it is obvious that the time taken to reach HAL airport will be 30-45 minutes for more than 75% of the air passengers.
Guys, news flash!
1) Most mysore travellers are located in the western & south western part of the city; explains why Mysore is located to the south west.
2) Most Chennai travellers are located in the eastern part of the city. Explains why Chennai is located to the East
3) ALL international travellers and domestic long haul air travellers are located in the Northern part of the city (explains why Devenahalli was chosen for BIA)
4) Most folks who travel locally and don't travel outside reside in the central part of the city.

Now I see the reasoning and justification for reopening hal, come on guys, are we so dumb to see the justification ?

Guys, news flash!
1) Most mysore travellers are located in the western & south western part of the city; explains why Mysore is located to the south west.
2) Most Chennai travellers are located in the eastern part of the city. Explains why Chennai is located to the East
3) ALL international travellers and domestic long haul air travellers are located in the Northern part of the city (explains why Devenahalli was chosen for BIA)
4) Most folks who travel locally and don't travel outside reside in the central part of the city.

Now I see the reasoning and justification for reopening hal, come on guys, are we so dumb to see the justification ?

:rofl::rofl:

:rofl::rofl:

I have been following this forum for quite a while and it sometimes makes me feel as if most of the people here haven't really seen the outside world. Though couple of forumers (who are no more discussing here) were slightly too much biased against BIAL, nonetheless they did have valid suggestions for the areas where we still have lots of scope for improvements. Unfortunately most of the forumers here are too content in their own thoughts. I would just request them to go out and check not only the developed but the developing world too. Once you go through Airports in Indonesia, China, DXB etc.. you would be amazed to see the kind of infrastructure they have setup there. I won't say BIAL is nothing, but still if you want to call it world-class, go and check the world. A world-class airport is one which has everything at par (Passenger amenities, traffic separation, Air Control, Cargo Handling, Parking & Maintenance, PAX Handling etc etc..) and not the trivial issues on which you guys are breaking your head :bash:(Distance From City, Terminal aesthetics, Lounge etc.) … Pls. stop being in your fool’s paradise…
This Forum has virtually lost its sheen and I can just hope that it gains back its decorum.

PS. This is just my opinion and you guys are free to ignore it.

>>Whether you like it or not, Most of air passengers originate from eastern and southern >>parts of Bangalore. Considering the traffic crawl spread over the city, the new >>Koramangala inner ring road and the Indiranagar flyover, it is obvious that the time >>taken to reach HAL airport will be 30-45 minutes for more than 75% of the air >>passengers.

Dont generalize issue. I live south bangalore travelling on Koramangala Ring Rd-Airport Rd/ Double rd--> Victoria Rd --Airport is a hell. There is no gaurantee that I will reach reach airport in 60-75 minutes during peak hours

New airport is contructed for Entire Bangalore & nearby districts not for few elite/page 3 people living around current airport. Everybody know who lives in EAST BLR - SOUTH BLR belt. It is more of migrant population who lives in this area.

I have been following this forum for quite a while and it sometimes makes me feel as if most of the people here haven't really seen the outside world. Though couple of forumers (who are no more discussing here) were slightly too much biased against BIAL, nonetheless they did have valid suggestions for the areas where we still have lots of scope for improvements. Unfortunately most of the forumers here are too content in their own thoughts. I would just request them to go out and check not only the developed but the developing world too. Once you go through Airports in Indonesia, China, DXB etc.. you would be amazed to see the kind of infrastructure they have setup there. I won't say BIAL is nothing, but still if you want to call it world-class, go and check the world. A world-class airport is one which has everything at par (Passenger amenities, traffic separation, Air Control, Cargo Handling, Parking & Maintenance, PAX Handling etc etc..) and not the trivial issues on which you guys are breaking your head :bash:(Distance From City, Terminal aesthetics, Lounge etc.) … Pls. stop being in your fool’s paradise…
This Forum has virtually lost its sheen and I can just hope that it gains back its decorum.

PS. This is just my opinion and you guys are free to ignore it.

Ok we will just have to ignore you..... because most of us here are based in US, and am sure everyone of us who have travelled between India & US have been to other airports in Asia and Europe as well (besides in US). So I hope you were not generalizing when you thought that we have'nt seen the outside world ??

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/07/16/images/2008071650520901.jpg

^^ The no. of aerobridges in HIAL is wrong ... and the distance from city is also wrong for both BIAL and HIAL ... looks like the reporter didn't do a good homework :D

I have been following this forum for quite a while and it sometimes makes me feel as if most of the people here haven't really seen the outside world. Though couple of forumers (who are no more discussing here) were slightly too much biased against BIAL, nonetheless they did have valid suggestions for the areas where we still have lots of scope for improvements. Unfortunately most of the forumers here are too content in their own thoughts. I would just request them to go out and check not only the developed but the developing world too. Once you go through Airports in Indonesia, China, DXB etc.. you would be amazed to see the kind of infrastructure they have setup there. I won't say BIAL is nothing, but still if you want to call it world-class, go and check the world. A world-class airport is one which has everything at par (Passenger amenities, traffic separation, Air Control, Cargo Handling, Parking & Maintenance, PAX Handling etc etc..) and not the trivial issues on which you guys are breaking your head :bash:(Distance From City, Terminal aesthetics, Lounge etc.) … Pls. stop being in your fool’s paradise…
This Forum has virtually lost its sheen and I can just hope that it gains back its decorum.

PS. This is just my opinion and you guys are free to ignore it.

I don't think that any forumer here compared BIA to Changi (or any other airport) favorably. Even those of us against re-opening HAL, have said that BIA needs to improve a lot, and have given suggestions so that it becomes a world class airport in the future. Among the "reopen HAL" people, not one of them have given a suggestion to improve BIA; reopening HAL is not going to improve BIA.

If the aim is to improve Bangalore's infrastructure so it is world class in the future, we have to concentrate on BIA (and also of course on other city matters apart from the airport)

If the aim is only to provide short term relief to only short haul passengers, open HAL. Later on down the road, don't complain that Bangalore was short changed and we have two mediocre airports.

Once you go through Airports in Indonesia, China, DXB etc

Ah.. Interesting choice of countries and airports.. world leaders, i presume.

Ah.. Interesting choice of countries and airports.. world leaders, i presume.
Thats why I said, see the world.. Most of us here have probably only been too US/Europe by the virtue of our employers ...When I mentioned these centers I implied, NOT ONLY the developed nations, but countries like ours have been successful too in developing far better infrastructure than us ....

I don't think that any forumer here compared BIA to Changi (or any other airport) favorably. Even those of us against re-opening HAL, have said that BIA needs to improve a lot, and have given suggestions so that it becomes a world class airport in the future. Among the "reopen HAL" people, not one of them have given a suggestion to improve BIA; reopening HAL is not going to improve BIA.

If the aim is to improve Bangalore's infrastructure so it is world class in the future, we have to concentrate on BIA (and also of course on other city matters apart from the airport)

If the aim is only to provide short term relief to only short haul passengers, open HAL. Later on down the road, don't complain that Bangalore was short changed and we have two mediocre airports.

Well said... When Delhi Metro was envisaged, same sort of doubts were raised ..but see now ..we don't even need to compare it with others, as it has set its own example. Same should be true for everything else including BIAL ... We need to set our own standards or atleast benchmark it with those who have achieved better results than US/UK under similar desi circumstances...and for that we need not go far-away ...Lots of Asisan examples are for us to cherish...

Ok we will just have to ignore you..... because most of us here are based in US, and am sure everyone of us who have travelled between India & US have been to other airports in Asia and Europe as well (besides in US). So I hope you were not generalizing when you thought that we have'nt seen the outside world ??

I was really not generalizing and I am 100% confident that most of you have far more experience than me in analysing such projects.. However, I was forced to write this because of the very tone of the postings here ..I'm sorry though about being slightly pokerfaced on this...

I also based my opinion on BIAL from the experiences of few of my friends who've just been there and off course the photos etc.. So ufture looks promising but we need not be satiated with whatever was thrown up our platter ...We should fight for nothing less than the best ...cheers:banana:

Looks like the journey delays were hyped up by media (http://www.livemint.com/2008/07/17222015/Faraway-airports-fly-by-me.html)

^^well, thats good, if the roads induce sleep (not good for the driver of course) :)

I wish they get their act together though..aerobridge not working...damn..:bash:

I have been following this forum for quite a while and it sometimes makes me feel as if most of the people here haven't really seen the outside world. Though couple of forumers (who are no more discussing here) were slightly too much biased against BIAL, nonetheless they did have valid suggestions for the areas where we still have lots of scope for improvements. Unfortunately most of the forumers here are too content in their own thoughts. I would just request them to go out and check not only the developed but the developing world too. Once you go through Airports in Indonesia, China, DXB etc.. you would be amazed to see the kind of infrastructure they have setup there. I won't say BIAL is nothing, but still if you want to call it world-class, go and check the world. A world-class airport is one which has everything at par (Passenger amenities, traffic separation, Air Control, Cargo Handling, Parking & Maintenance, PAX Handling etc etc..) and not the trivial issues on which you guys are breaking your head :bash:(Distance From City, Terminal aesthetics, Lounge etc.) … Pls. stop being in your fool’s paradise…
This Forum has virtually lost its sheen and I can just hope that it gains back its decorum.

PS. This is just my opinion and you guys are free to ignore it.

Originally Posted by dakshinapraja
I don't think that any forumer here compared BIA to Changi (or any other airport) favorably. Even those of us against re-opening HAL, have said that BIA needs to improve a lot, and have given suggestions so that it becomes a world class airport in the future. Among the "reopen HAL" people, not one of them have given a suggestion to improve BIA; reopening HAL is not going to improve BIA.

If the aim is to improve Bangalore's infrastructure so it is world class in the future, we have to concentrate on BIA (and also of course on other city matters apart from the airport)

If the aim is only to provide short term relief to only short haul passengers, open HAL. Later on down the road, don't complain that Bangalore was short changed and we have two mediocre airports.

Well said... When Delhi Metro was envisaged, same sort of doubts were raised ..but see now ..we don't even need to compare it with others, as it has set its own example. Same should be true for everything else including BIAL ... We need to set our own standards or atleast benchmark it with those who have achieved better results than US/UK under similar desi circumstances...and for that we need not go far-away ...Lots of Asisan examples are for us to cherish...

I agree with Mr Dakshina Praja.

And, what is said matters more than the tone. Tone depends a lot on perspective. If one party is bent on doing what appers to be organised false propaganda then the other party responds in an unusual tone unusual even to themselves. Whether people like it or not BIA is their airport. And, no one except the 'Open HAL' people - just 3 of them started using the words "World Class Airport". If they used it then the words must have been attributed to them alone. 'Opposing HAL opening' is a different issue from 'acknowledging BIA's faults'.
Almost every person on this thread(actually the original thread which was locked down) including me criticized BIA for its shortcomings- but then when HAL Walas jumped in others stopped constructive criticizm - because constructive criticizm was hijacked by others for ulterior motives.

To me there is nothing called Desi Airports(Desi is based on skin colour?). Europe, USA are technologically superior than all those 'so called Desi countries' without a doubt - technology still comes from USA, Europe, Japan, Korea etc. The reasons go very deep for why a region or country or people became developed- the West has its own reasons- Singapore developed because it was pushed to develop(every where need played a role in becoming a developed nation). In the east Japan was developed long ago. Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore developed later. China is catching up. Indonesia cant be compared to the West - not at all. They USE Western technology and Western technicians and builders- same with the Middle East. Even Changi had used Japanese architects and builders early on. Soekarno-Hatta International Airport, Jakarta was designed by Paul Andreu, a French architect who also designed Charles de Gaulle International Airport in Paris. It was built by the French as well. One of the major characteristics of Soekarno-Hatta airport is the incorporation of the local vernacular architecture into the design, and the presence of tropical gardens in between the waiting lounges. However, due to poor maintenance, its not too strategic location, and lack of budget, the airport is inferior to many international airports in the region. However, Soekarno-Hatta International Airport was noted for its beautiful landscaping: the airport was awarded the 1995 Aga Khan Award for Architecture.[1]
Soekarno-Hatta International Airport has 150 check-in counters, 30 baggage carousels and 42 gates. Each sub-terminal has 25 check-in counters, 5 baggage carrousels and 7 gates. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soekarno-Hatta_International_Airport> KL airport also was built by foreigners.
I wont go into reasons as to why we became a so called "third world country" even if we were once a country with 20 % of the world's GDP- the bloody British Raj and all that(though it has a lot to do with our situation today)- we could have been technologically competent and not in the same league of underdeveloped countries of the world, if all that wasnt artificially heaped on us- it takes time.

The first step towards development is acknowledging the truth - China acknowledged that first. Where do you think China got their technology from?- mainly from the West and Japan, Singapore etc - Over the last 2 decades the Chinese Govt sysematically sent a multitude of selected students - one group each to almost every available course in almost every university in all these developed countries and got them educated - then they got Western experts to do their jobs and thus trained their own foreign educated students- now they have their own expert technicians- it all came as a result of a well thought out and implemented plan. China has the money(manufacturing hub of the world), Indonesia has oil and now its also a manufacturing centre - our politicians drove away all those manufacturers who had come knocking at our doors, and so we dont have the money and thats why we are behind.

Comparing airports: First of all all 'those aspects of an airport you listed as important and which need to be at par' - they are not unacceptable to anyone - but then the conditions BIAL and those airports faced are almost completely different. First of all no one called BIA a world class airport. If BIA did not perform upto expectations then first it needs to be examined WHY before blaming it squarely. What was BIA's budget in comparison with a Changi?- miniscule. And was the entire budget spent on the airport?- not at all- i believe a lot went as payoffs to Netas specially the Gowdas and they are short of funds now. And still the project was stalled continuously for 4 years after the contract was awarded and finally took off only in 2005. Time is money?. Finally after completion now they have the democles sword of HAL reopening on their heads. This is not the kind of investment climate and red tape those world class airports you have cited faced.
Even if BIAL had similar conditions like RGIA had it sould have done quite a good job.
I heard in 2006-2007 that when BIAL wanted to have an underground-overground parking compley- some netas said "No, underground will get flooded, are they mad?" etc - But surely it will happen sometime. Cargo?- its just a matter of time. If they had the favourable climate and yet had failed then its a different story and they could have been kicked out already.
UK does not represent Europe- the attitudes and approaches are different.
Also . I dont support colour based bias- the world is becoming flat.

Hopefully BIA will do a good job in future phases - but due to the financial mess that's already been created it will take some time(temporary terminals and all that- things going not really accprding to plan until they settle down finally).

An incomplete analysis would take us nowhere and so i had to be elaborate- sorry about that.

If there is anything thats wrong in what i said- then please do let me know.

For those who say that BIA is the big bad wolf driving away LCCs:

So, here's primarily what I am saying : as things stand today, there is no real fare difference between low cost and full fare airlines barring Kingfisher — the taxes and surcharges (and in most cases the fuel surcharge alone) exceeds the basic fare. The cost of flying in India has at least tripled in the last 8-10 months; there is absolutely no comparison with railway fares; it is more expensive to fly within India than within most countries in the region and it may be cheaper or equivalent for you to take a holiday to a nearby country than within India. If CEOs of any Indian airlines disagree, I'd love to hear from them.

http://www.business-standard.com/common/news_article.php?leftnm=10&bKeyFlag=BO&autono=328990

Article (http://www.livemint.com/2008/07/17222015/Faraway-airports-fly-by-me.html)

Nice article about travel times to and from BIAL. The author talks about her journey from MAA to DEL via BLR and HYD.

Quoting the last para here.

City centres, especially urban areas that continue to grow, are no place for airports. These cities and their airport promoters did not adequately plan every detail in time for the opening — but now the facilities seem to be working just fine. It’s time for passengers to quit complaining, embrace the new mode...

The author quotes the cab driver "the last 30km to BIAL will be covered in 30 minutes". This is the stretch where casualties and deaths of pedestrians are happening very frequently due to poor road design and overspeeding traffic. Once more signals are installed for safety of pedestrians and enforcement of speed limit to 60km/hr (as compared to cabs racing now at 150km/hr illegally) by Highway Police begins, then the actual travel time to BIAL from city will be known. Surely, it is going to be 2-3hours from various parts of city to BIAL then.

Till then, please wait and donot claim travel time to BIAL is 90 minutes etc. as something like prize winners because that lowering in travel time to 90minutes is obtained maybe by killing local pedestrians onway due to overspeed.

I have been following this forum for quite a while and it sometimes makes me feel as if most of the people here haven't really seen the outside world.

How did you come to that conclusion?



I would just request them to go out and check not only the developed but the developing world too. Once you go through Airports in Indonesia, China, DXB etc.. you would be amazed to see the kind of infrastructure they have setup there.


What about airports in USA, Europe, Singapore, Japan, HongKong, Malaysia? Are ther inferior in terms of infrastructure?


I won't say BIAL is nothing, but still if you want to call it world-class, go and check the world. A world-class airport is one which has everything at par (Passenger amenities, traffic separation, Air Control, Cargo Handling, Parking & Maintenance, PAX Handling etc etc..) and not the trivial issues on which you guys are breaking your head :bash:(Distance From City, Terminal aesthetics, Lounge etc.) … Pls. stop being in your fool’s paradise…


I agree with items that you have listed for world class airport standards and 200% agree that BIAL is nowhere to world class.

On your items of trivial issues, I donot agree with the "distance from city".
According to me , distance from city is an important issue if it is poorly connected to city.

Let me give you some examples of world class airports I have gone through with good connectivity below.

Munich city in Germany has Franz Josef Strauss International Airport located 28 km northeast of Munich and is the second busiest airport in Germany handling 33 million passengers per annum. A third runway is now being planned for this airport. City centre can be reached by the Munich suburban rail that takes 45 minutes. Munich Airport is connected to the city centre via the A 92 and A 9 motorways and a cab ride takes 45 minutes by these expressways.

Houston city in USA has George Bush Intercontinental Airport located 23 miles (37 km) north of downtown Houston and Hobby airport located just 7 miles (11km) from downtown. Bush Intercontinental is bigger and handle long haul flights both domestic and international. Whereas hobby handles regional short haul flights. Both the airports are operational and connected by expressways I59 to Bush Intercontinental and and I45 to hobby airport. Travel time to these airports are 45 minutes to Bush Intercontinental and 15 minutes to Hobby.

Singapore Changi airport is located 20 km from city centre. MRT trains and cabs take from Changi airport terminal less than 30 minutes to city centre.
There are expressways connecting Changi to the city.

Now, all these world class airports have good and fast connectivity to city centre by less than 1 hour travel time to city. Though Munich and Singapore airports are located away from city, the distance is overcome by the fast autobahns/expressways and suburban/MRT rail services. Houston has tackled the connectivity by two airports one farther away from city for long haul flights and the other in the heart of city for short haul flights; both these airports are again connected by fast freeways.

Now do you still think Iam wasting my time talking about BIAL and HAL?

Hi all,

I have been following this thread for some time and finally am compelled to post my comment here. I am a passionate bangalorean who likes to see the development of infrastructure in my city as much as anyone here . I did notice that the discussion often has diverted into "Should HIAL open" thread rather than discussing the BIAL development, prevalant issues and the future of BIAL(of what might become a massive aerotropolis).

Though there is no denial that some of the business travellers might have found it to be inconvenient about the distance, I personally feel this is just a start of a better aviation infrastructure for the city. Any such massive projects such as these, will have its fair share of criticism, comparisons but the larger point is, we probably need to think , say 10 years down the line.(The upcoming Bangalore metro is a classic example)

Imagine a situation where we will have a rail link, better dedicated expressways to the airport which might shorten the travel time down the years. Is it such a hassle even then?

BIAL has to be given some credit(if not completely) along with the BMTC for the existing arrangements which are not bad at all by any stretch of imagination. The airport is of international standards (before anyone start pouncing here, I have been to Heathrow, Geneva, Zurich, Newark airports to have an idea of what international standards are..), bus connectivity is very good(to all parts of the city.).

But the more important aspect here, will BIAL maintain the same standards. or has it become a victim of complacency already.This is what I have e-mailed to feedback@bialairport.com with no response yet::


Hi,

With the risk of knowing, this e-mail might very well go unnoticed, I am writing this as a feedback on the BIAL for some obvious reasons. I am a passionate bangalorean and would love to see my city progressing in the right direction in every aspect(I feel horrible when thats not the case), and secondly I intend to have a hassle free and enjoyable travel as any other passenger . There are more and many but I will come to what I want to convey here:

A new airport for a city like bangalore is always welcome and I am prepared to go through the hassles of longer commuting time and others, for the reason, this would be the start of better aviation infrastructure in bangalore in the longer run. But what I certainly dread is the complacency which has already started to show on various aspects through the BIAL experience. A month back when I was at the BIAL the approach road looked neat and clean. I was glad. A second trip this month, it has started to show the kind of poor maintainance the airport infrastructure is experiencing. I have had friends who have been to Hyderabad and say the maintainance being spot on every time they tour it.I dont want to go on further in this aspect (I am sure this has been mentioned, repeated many times over in the numerous papers, forums, blogs.. you name it!!) . Is there any remote possibility, that the BIAL will take the responsibility for the poor maintainance of roads in the premises of the airport and do something about it.

Best Regards
Raghu

Hopefully this is the more important aspect they have to consider before their expansion plans

I agree with Mr Dakshina Praja.

And, what is said matters more than the tone. Tone depends a lot on perspective. If one party is bent on doing what appers to be organised false propaganda then the other party responds in an unusual tone unusual even to themselves. Whether people like it or not BIA is their airport. And, no one except the 'Open HAL' people - just 3 of them started using the words "World Class Airport". ....
Almost every person on this thread(actually the original thread which was locked down) including me criticized BIA for its shortcomings- but then when HAL Walas jumped in others stopped constructive criticizm - because constructive criticizm was hijacked by others for ulterior motives.

To me there is nothing called Desi Airports(Desi is based on skin colour?). Europe, USA are technologically superior than all those 'so called Desi countries' without a doubt - technology still comes from USA, Europe, Japan, Korea etc. .....In the east Japan was developed long ago. Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore developed later. China is catching up. Indonesia cant be compared to the West - not at all. They USE Western technology and Western technicians and builders- same with the Middle East. Even Changi had used Japanese architects and builders early on. KL airport also was built ......

The first step towards development is acknowledging the truth - China acknowledged that first. Where do you think China got their technology from?- mainly from the West and Japan, Singapore etc - ....China has the money(manufacturing hub of the world), Indonesia has oil and now its also a manufacturing centre - our politicians drove away all those manufacturers who had come knocking at our doors, and so we dont have the money and thats why we are behind.

Comparing airports: First of all all 'those aspects of an airport you listed as important and which need to be at par' - they are not unacceptable to anyone - but then the conditions BIAL and those airports faced are almost completely different. First of all no one called BIA a world class airport. .......

Hopefully BIA will do a good job in future phases - but due to the financial mess that's already been created it will take some time(temporary terminals and all that- things going not really accprding to plan until they settle down finally).

An incomplete analysis would take us nowhere and so i had to be elaborate- sorry about that.

If there is anything thats wrong in what i said- then please do let me know.

Bravo Bravo :bow::bow: I find this one of the most positive and constructive postings so far ...Thanks for putting this altogether .... However I have few reservations (not necessarily a negation) here: By Desi I meant the Indian sub-continent and has nothing to do with skin-color ....
As for the western know-how being superior altogether ..I totally agree to that ..but the point is if we have the capability of buying that, there is no harm in utilizing it ..afterall whats the use of re-inventing the wheel ...innovation is the key here ....having said that ...they may be good in structural and architectural knowledge..but we too give back in terms of IT services, cheap parts (aviation components too), clothes etc. and thats how the global economy works ...ain't it ....
If Indonesia, KL etc. can buy and use the "western" engineering/management skills in such a nice fashion, why can't we. If we proclaim Bangalore to be the "Silicon Valley" of India then why can't BIAL be like ORD/JFK/SNA (to the least).

About the Pro-HAL guys, I would ask them a question, were they critical of the HAL in its living days ..did they ever raise their voice in the 80's 90's as much as they are doing against the much better BIAL, today? However, in no ways I am trying to negate their current opinion. This is just a view that I have put forward. Why wasn't there so much lobbying in the inception phase itself, specially when the locational decisions were being made.

Bravo Bravo :bow::bow: I find this one of the most positive and constructive postings so far ...Thanks for putting this altogether .... However I have few reservations (not necessarily a negation) here: By Desi I meant the Indian sub-continent and has nothing to do with skin-color ....
As for the western know-how being superior altogether ..I totally agree to that ..but the point is if we have the capability of buying that, there is no harm in utilizing it ..afterall whats the use of re-inventing the wheel ...innovation is the key here ....having said that ...they may be good in structural and architectural knowledge..but we too give back in terms of IT services, cheap parts (aviation components too), clothes etc. and thats how the global economy works ...ain't it ....
If Indonesia, KL etc. can buy and use the "western" engineering/management skills in such a nice fashion, why can't we. If we proclaim Bangalore to be the "Silicon Valley" of India then why can't BIAL be like ORD/JFK/SNA (to the least).

About the Pro-HAL guys, I would ask them a question, were they critical of the HAL in its living days ..did they ever raise their voice in the 80's 90's as much as they are doing against the much better BIAL, today? However, in no ways I am trying to negate their current opinion. This is just a view that I have put forward. Why wasn't there so much lobbying in the inception phase itself, specially when the locational decisions were being made.

Thanks for the reply.
A general observation:
We tried reinventing the wheel for 40 odd years(the AAI for example in the airport business)- but now we are getting onto the right track very very slowly - we should have done so with help of the private sector long ago. We should have done so before China which was less developed than us not so long ago.
If you observed how China systematically did with in a multi pronged approach - its astounding. Our Engineering colleges are not yet upto the mark with the exception of IITs, IIMS and a few other, and even the IITs are not upto the mark of an MIT or Stanford in innovation and have a long way to go. Us claiming the contrary out of (false) patriotism does not help- we have a long way to go and it requires accepting facts first. Hiding facts in the name of patriotism, is only temporary relief, but underneath it actually worsens the situation. We need to learn technology from the West for quite some time and ingrain the essence of that into our system- not simply copy as our industries did and are still are - like for example machine tool industry(in Punjab for example) has been doing for decades - it all depends on the mindset(there needs to be more interest in depth and thinking bigger as our own Dr Kalam said). And our approch should be long term as opposed to short term gains that more often than not hamper long term success.
All this if our political system allows us.

AAI report to be presented in HC
Thursday July 17 2008 12:51 IST

Express News Service

BANGALORE: With the Airports Authority of India (AAI) preparing to present its report on a recent capacity study of the old and new airports in Bangalore to the Karnataka High Court, the issue of commercial air-traffic sharing between the two airports might find revival: there are capacity constraints at the new airport.

AAI's recent survey report indicated that the HAL Airport could handle 9 million domestic passengers per annum; the Bengaluru International Airport's (BIA) annual capacity was shown as 9.87 million. Bangalore registered 10.12 million passengers in the year 2007-08. The advocate of the operators of BIA-Bangalore International Airport Limited--had earlier informed the High Court that BIA's annual capacity was 14 million.

A member, Planning, of the AAI will be present in the High Court to present the reports on the capacities of the two airports. The next hearing of the case related to the Bengaluru International Airport (BIA) sharing commercial operations with the HAL Airport is scheduled for July 18.

During a meeting held on Tuesday in New Delhi, Secretary, Ministry of Civil Aviation, Ashok Chawla, CEO of Bangalore International Airport Limited (BIAL) Albert Brunner, and Chief Secretary, Government of Karnataka, Sudhakar Rao, discussed issues related to the two airports in Bangalore. Sources in the AAI indicated that all the documents related to the AAI's study on capacities of the two airports were submitted at that meeting and discussions were held to allow the HAL Airport to share Bangalore's commercial air traffic for the next three years, until the BIA builds its new terminal.

More at:

http://newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE120080717023010&Page=1&Title=Bangalore&Topic=0&

I dont understand why they are restricting for three years. I think HAL airport will be needed forever working in parallel with BIAL.

>
New airport is contructed for Entire Bangalore & nearby districts not for few elite/page 3 people living around current airport. Everybody know who lives in EAST BLR - SOUTH BLR belt. It is more of migrant population who lives in this area.

Does it really matter as far as air passengers are concerned? For your information, it is not just public from Bangalore but from other cities in India who makes up the air passenger traffic to Bangalore. How would you go from here then?

We all know where majority of IT industries are located? >-The same regions East Blr and South Blr, which you labelled as "migrant". IT corporate offices of Wipro, microsoft, intel etc. all have moved to Sharjapura in east Blr. Why do you conveniently forget that? And by the way please be aware there are as many migrants in west and north too.

I dont understand why they are restricting for three years. I think HAL airport will be needed forever working in parallel with BIAL.

You have become a parody of yourself

hey mpvp , now that you are online again can you please forward me the link relating to the statement you gave concerning the flying population of B'lore primarily being located in South and Eastern parts of the city.

It'll help me compile the database which I need relating to flying pattersn in various metropolis of India.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Let me give you some examples of world class airports I have gone through with good connectivity below.

Munich city in Germany has Franz Josef Strauss International Airport located 28 km northeast of Munich and is the second busiest airport in Germany handling 33 million passengers per annum. A third runway is now being planned for this airport. City centre can be reached by the Munich suburban rail that takes 45 minutes. Munich Airport is connected to the city centre via the A 92 and A 9 motorways and a cab ride takes 45 minutes by these expressways.

Houston city in USA has George Bush Intercontinental Airport located 23 miles (37 km) north of downtown Houston and Hobby airport located just 7 miles (11km) from downtown. Bush Intercontinental is bigger and handle long haul flights both domestic and international. Whereas hobby handles regional short haul flights. Both the airports are operational and connected by expressways I59 to Bush Intercontinental and and I45 to hobby airport. Travel time to these airports are 45 minutes to Bush Intercontinental and 15 minutes to Hobby.

Singapore Changi airport is located 20 km from city centre. MRT trains and cabs take from Changi airport terminal less than 30 minutes to city centre.
There are expressways connecting Changi to the city.

Now, all these world class airports have good and fast connectivity to city centre by less than 1 hour travel time to city. Though Munich and Singapore airports are located away from city, the distance is overcome by the fast autobahns/expressways and suburban/MRT rail services. Houston has tackled the connectivity by two airports one farther away from city for long haul flights and the other in the heart of city for short haul flights; both these airports are again connected by fast freeways.

Now do you still think Iam wasting my time talking about BIAL and HAL?

Its very clear with all your concerns which you have raised above with respect to BIAL is its connectivity, but how would re-opening HAL solve the connectivity problem to BIA?

Looks like you are implying "I don't care about rest of Bangloreans as long as I can reach the airport quickly". Isn't this a perfect example of the selfish attitude which most of our politicians possess. If the politicians were little more emphatetic towards Bangloreans as a whole, they probably wouldn't have even considered Devanahalli as the location. But its too late now, isn't it?

Remember Bangalore airport is for entire Bangalore, not for just few inconsiderate elitists like you. The privileged ones should consider chartering a flight out of HAL, if BIA is such a deal breaker, if not try pressuring the govt to resolve the connectivity problem, instead of wasting your time in this forum.

Anyways I don't know why I even bothered to respond to you. Arrg!

How did you come to that conclusion?
Well, as I said in my other email, I just made this comment based on the "tone" of the postings. Otherwise I have no doubts at all about this (As I said, most of the forumers here have much much more experience than me)




What about airports in USA, Europe, Singapore, Japan, HongKong, Malaysia? Are ther inferior in terms of infrastructure?
I meant NOT ONLY The developed world but few nations in the developing world too have really incredible setup.



On your items of trivial issues, I donot agree with the "distance from city".
According to me , distance from city is an important issue if it is poorly connected to city.
Most of the US airports where developed when the road infrastructure was already in place. Unlike the Chinese/Japanese airports, almost all of the US Airports do not have a dedicated Mass Transit setup just for the airports.


Let me give you some examples of world class airports I have gone through with good connectivity below.

Munich city in Germany.....
Houston city in USA ......
Singapore Changi airport is located 20 km from city centre. MRT trains and cabs take from Changi airport terminal less than 30 minutes to city centre.
There are expressways connecting Changi to the city....
Now do you still think Iam wasting my time talking about BIAL and HAL?
Thanks for these info-pieces. In my opinion Singapore is a totally different scenario as their complete concentration is on Changi and the revenues generated out of it. Other countries have far more complications and issues to deal with.
However it also needs to be noted that Bangalore or any other Indian city for that sake is still not comparable to any of the mentioned cities in terms of the overall infrastructure. Most of these cities already had fabulous infrastructure in place and the Airport connectivity was just one route. We need to copy the same. As Bangalore develops and gets better roads/MRTS/whatever ..The connectivity to the Airport shall automatically be taken care of. Adios:)

Thanks for the reply.
A general observation:
We tried reinventing the wheel for 40 odd years(the AAI for example in the airport business)- but now we are getting onto the right track very very slowly - we should have done so with help of the private sector long ago. We should have done so before China which was less developed than us not so long ago.
If you observed how China systematically did with in a multi pronged approach - its astounding. Our Engineering colleges are not yet upto the mark with the exception of IITs, IIMS and a few other, and even the IITs are not upto the mark of an MIT or Stanford in innovation and have a long way to go. Us claiming the contrary out of (false) patriotism does not help- we have a long way to go and it requires accepting facts first. Hiding facts in the name of patriotism, is only temporary relief, but underneath it actually worsens the situation. We need to learn technology from the West for quite some time and ingrain the essence of that into our system- not simply copy as our industries did and are still are - like for example machine tool industry(in Punjab for example) has been doing for decades - it all depends on the mindset(there needs to be more interest in depth and thinking bigger as our own Dr Kalam said). And our approch should be long term as opposed to short term gains that more often than not hamper long term success.
All this if our political system allows us.

That's the way to go ...We need to shed this blindfold of jingoism first and totally accept the facts and standings. But I still think ppl churning out IITs/NITs/IISc/IIMs are at par with any great engineers/managers of the world. The same kind is doing great stuff at other places. If we can retain them, we too can bake our own cake and have it too. There are few examples (not necessarily from aviation) to follow : Konkan Railway, Jammu-Srinagar Rail Project, DMRC, NH4(MPE) etc.

I dont understand why they are restricting for three years. I think HAL airport will be needed forever working in parallel with BIAL.

You won't understand, its little deep for you :)

Sorry, a bit out of context;

Is Bangalore officially now renamed as Bengaluru or is it just for the airport?

BIAL on BBC World; Mr. Brunner answers connectivity and UDF issues, but the interesting part (to me) is his message for other investors during the end of the interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5d7Gmd6oDI

But I still think ppl churning out IITs/NITs/IISc/IIMs are at par with any great engineers/managers of the world. The same kind is doing great stuff at other places. If we can retain them, we too can bake our own cake and have it too. There are few examples (not necessarily from aviation) to follow : Konkan Railway, Jammu-Srinagar Rail Project, DMRC, NH4(MPE) etc.
Undoubtedly true that engineers coming out are at par with the rest of the world. They are performing abroad because of the good systems in place there. The very same ones brought back here would make a lot of headway if majority of the population had a privilege to see that there exists a different world outside which thinks and operates in a radically different way. To add to the list you mentioned I would add a list of individuals who have done great and have placed themzelves on a gobal scale..Azim Premji, Narayan Murthy, Tatas, the Ambanis etc. We can definitely bake our cake and have it too provided the oven is good. If there is a systemic(the oven) failure then the dough(we) go to a different oven(abroad where the system is good) to get baked. If you have seen my posts (and posts from quite a few sensible forumers) the bad road & rail infrastructure has been highlighted. I in particular have delved into detailed statistics on the lack of traffic to support a 2 airport system. This is especially given the fact that we have a gross imbalance of basic infrastructure where we actually need many more public transport hubs like rail stations & bus stations; a good freeway network; good power infrastructure; and finallly a total revamp of the law enforcement machinery! Now, what can be done if there is squabbling resulting in bad policies? The new airport is/was a litmus test according to me of what Bangalore can achieve with a serious means of heading in the right direction. Although I personally feel it could have done better; it has come closest to giving Bangalore a aviation platform of some sanity and semblance of organized approach which is not seen at any of the state run ones - but is the favourite scpapegoat for finding faults right till the probably the toilet tile not being laid correctly to be justifying reopening the older state run one. What I really care about is only 1 airport runs first before we get it right completely prior to the justification of needing the other. I will not be unduly surprised on the reopening of HAL considering the clout AAI & the govt. has.

BIAL on BBC World; Mr. Brunner answers connectivity and UDF issues, but the interesting part (to me) is during the end of the interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5d7Gmd6oDI

So like has been said before on this forum- the first guys that came in put in a lot of work which resulted in the Govt drawing up and putting in place proper structures, legal frameworks, procedures etc- and the people who came in later had it much easier- they reaped the fruits of the first investors's hard work. If am right the 3.5 years Mr Brunner spoke about was 2001 to 2005. And even after the frameworks were put in place the overall bureacracy hadn't changed to match all that.
This is why i had said HIAL had it very lucky to have had Chief Minister, Mr Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy (who pushed hard for the success of RGIA) as patron.

So UDF was agreed upon in 2004 and some people have spoken here that it was something that came up only later.

There are limitations as to how candid Brunner can be - he has to take great care to not antagonize anybody (even if some had caused a lot of trouble), and try to please everybody.

Undoubtedly true that engineers coming out are at par with the rest of the world. They are performing abroad because of the good systems in place there. The very same ones brought back here would make a lot of headway if majority of the population had a privilege to see that there exists a different world outside which thinks and operates in a radically different way. To add to the list you mentioned I would add a list of individuals who have done great and have placed themzelves on a gobal scale..Azim Premji, Narayan Murthy, Tatas, the Ambanis etc. ...... The new airport is/was a litmus test according to me of what Bangalore can achieve with a serious means of heading in the right direction. Although I personally feel it could have done better; it has come closest to giving Bangalore a aviation platform of some sanity and semblance of organized approach which is not seen at any of the state run ones.... What I really care about is only 1 airport runs first before we get it right completely prior to the justification of needing the other. I will not be unduly surprised on the reopening of HAL considering the clout AAI & the govt. has.

Totally agree to this idealogy...Afterall BIAL or HIAL have atleast given us a speck of hope in this chaos and anarchy. And it shouldn't really bother us if it was done by a MIT enggineer rather than an IITian. These 2 projects at least gives us some breather from the existing infrastructure. HAL will never never be comparable to BIAL in any respects (except for the distance that many of the forumers have talked about). Someone before had put it really right ...Did we ever count the traffic blockage in the HAL parking lot and the Airport road due to airport bound traffic... I remember taking more than an hour from HAL to BTM 2nd stage in 2007... If it takes 20-25 mins more (on an avg.) to the BIAL then I think people should stop cribbing about it and start cherishing this nicer facility (Though I don't find it a world-class one :nuts:). We all need to realize that Bangalore has just grown from a big-city to a Metro and taking the fact that things have started to take place only recently, Road/Rail projects in the near future will automatically qualm these issues.
However, you all will have to still keep fighting on the issues that ail BIAL still like Cargo/No. of Gates /Separation /Baggage Handling /Landside Aesthetics etc....

However, you all will have to still keep fighting on the issues that ail BIAL still like Cargo/No. of Gates/Separation/Baggage Handling etc....

I would just leave it to them- because i know they are capable and also sincere. Cargo, more gates, more aerobridges etc will happen soon.
Separation can happen only in the next phase it looks like. And they have agreed to work towards separation in future phases in an interview sometime back to a citizens's forum(i assume they did not have the money to do that in T1 due to reasons discussed already).

When they are comfortable financially i am sure they will do everything much much more grandly - i would be worried only if i thought: a) they are incapable or b) if they lack integrity(meaning if they are cheats). As long as they have the basic underlying qualities i wouldnt worry and leave them to get on with the job (its underlying causes that cause the symptoms). If i have missed something there- pls feel free to add it.

However, you all will have to still keep fighting on the issues that ail BIAL still like Cargo/No. of Gates /Separation /Baggage Handling /Landside Aesthetics etc....

Why not you too?

deleted

When they are comfortable financially i am sure they will do everything much much more grandly - i would be worried only if i thought: a) they are incapable or b) if they lack integrity(meaning if they are cheats). As long as they have the basic underlying qualities i wouldnt worry and leave them to get on with the job (its underlying causes that cause the symptoms). If i have missed something there- pls feel free to add it.


What about the recent report that the advocate of BIAL claimed 14 million as its capacity against AAI study reoprt which says only 9.87million pax? Is not that putting integrity of BIAL in question? Why should BIAL inflate and make false claims on its capacity?

You won't understand, its little deep for you :)

Instead of showing mimicry and jokes, why dont you talk something about airports.

Its very clear with all your concerns which you have raised above with respect to BIAL is its connectivity, but how would re-opening HAL solve the connectivity problem to BIA?

Looks like you are implying "I don't care about rest of Bangloreans as long as I can reach the airport quickly". Isn't this a perfect example of the selfish attitude which most of our politicians possess. If the politicians were little more emphatetic towards Bangloreans as a whole, they probably wouldn't have even considered Devanahalli as the location. But its too late now, isn't it?

It is people like you who are selfish. You dont care about public from east,south or west but only want one airport BIAL nearby your house. Nobody has closed BIAL or asked for BIAL shut down till date. But it is BIAL and its coterie of narrow minded supporters who have forced shutdown of HAL airport thereby denying public a choice of second airport.

I think what Prakash meant was as long as BIAL has capacity problems, cannot encourage short haul flights and poor connectivity to city, there is no justification to the public for HAL airport shut down. Let first BIAL clear its problems first before directing HAL airport what to do.

hey mpvp , now that you are online again can you please forward me the link relating to the statement you gave concerning the flying population of B'lore primarily being located in South and Eastern parts of the city.

It'll help me compile the database which I need relating to flying pattersn in various metropolis of India.


check out below news report:



Bangalore still lies in south-east!

Wednesday, June 15, 2005
The Times of India

Bangalore: The south and east phenomenon shows no sign of slackening. Bangalore’s amazing growth in the past decade has been concentrated in these two directions, along an arc from Bannerghatta Road to Whitefield. Massive corporate campuses, large and numerous residential complexes and modern retail facilities have come up along this belt.

And a tally done by The Times of India of 107 upcoming large residential complexes finds there is unlikely to be a dramatic change occurring in this geographical lopsidedness. However, it does also indicate the beginnings of a challenge emerging from the north.

Of the 107 projects, 74 are in the south and east, with a good part of that (as many as 23) in Whitefield, easily the most happening location in the city now and referred to by many as the Gurgaon of Bangalore. About 14 of the new residential projects are in the north. And the rest are in traditional areas of Bangalore, including the central business district and Malleswaram/Rajajinagar. “I don’t see any major locational shift happening. Even in the south, which has seen the most development, we are still getting land, be it Hosur Road, Bannerghatta Road or Kanakapura Road,” says J.C. Sharma, managing director of Sobha Developers.

Neville Vaswani, director in Vaswani Estates Developers, says development will happen where people want to stay, which currently is areas like Whitefield, Sarjapur Road and the south. “For north Bangalore, the only driver at present is the international airport. But it is an area that will eventually come into its own,” he says.

Development of residential and retail facilities invariably follows commercial development. And that’s where the north and west still lag.

More at:
http://bangalorebuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/bangalore-still-lies-in-south-east.html

Sorry, a bit out of context;

Is Bangalore officially now renamed as Bengaluru or is it just for the airport?

Officially it is now Bengaluru.
But IT industry has fond memories of the city and still loves to call the city as Bangalore.:)

Why not you too?
Sure!!! Only thing is I have a locational constraint and any other help is guaranteed from my end.

I would just leave it to them- because i know they are capable and also sincere. Cargo, more gates, more aerobridges etc will happen soon.
Separation can happen only in the next phase it looks like. And they have agreed to work towards separation in future phases in an interview sometime back to a citizens's forum(i assume they did not have the money to do that in T1 due to reasons discussed already).

When they are comfortable financially i am sure they will do everything much much more grandly - i would be worried only if i thought: a) they are incapable or b) if they lack integrity(meaning if they are cheats). As long as they have the basic underlying qualities i wouldnt worry and leave them to get on with the job (its underlying causes that cause the symptoms). If i have missed something there- pls feel free to add it.

It owuld be really great if they stick to their current plan to the least. Future dynamics can decide if we need any modifications to those (It all depends upon the future growth/traffic patterns/earnings/politicol scenario etc.)...
Also, I am hopeful about the whole situation as the corruption/inefficiency etc. are at a decline (though at a very slow pace)...however public awareness is growing like hell (This forum is surely an example) and this means we can see better execution of plans in the future (As the execution authorities can be held more accountable)...What do you guys think about it?.... We can probably form a citizens group or something which can review each stage of development of the 2nd Phase...This should somewhat solve the brick-batting that we have seen of late..:)

IndiGo, SpiceJet say no to Bangalore aerobridges
BS Reporters / Delhi/Bangalore/Hyderabad July 19, 2008, 0:12 IST

After cutting down on capacity and manpower, airlines are now trying to save on airport charges. This they are doing by sparingly using airport infrastructure on which additional charges are levied and using their own equipment at the airport.

For instance, low-cost carriers IndiGo and SpiceJet are not using the aerobridges at the new Bangalore greenfield airport, because the airport authorities levy an extra charge for using the aerobridges. Also, carriers like Air India do not use the aerobridges for smaller aircraft like ATRs.

Airline executives said the aerobridge charges at the Bangalore airport could range anywhere between Rs 4,500 and 8,000, depending on flight duration and aircraft type. The new airport has a total of 8 aerobridges. The old HAL airport, which had two aerobridges, did not levy any charge on usage of aerobridges.

"We do not use the aerobridges at the Bangalore airport, which is the only one in the country to currently levy any charge for aerobridge. As a cost-cutting measure, we prefer to use our own buses for ferrying the passengers to and from the aircraft," said a SpiceJet executive.

Agreed Bruce Ashby, CEO of Delhi based budget carrier IndiGo, which currently does all its groundhandling on its own, which includes ferrying passengers to the aircraft on their own vehicles.

"We have found it more cost-effective to do our own groundhandling. In fact, based on the rates quoted by Bangalore airport, it is more cost-effective in every area to self-handle," said Ashby.

Currently, the full-service carriers Air India, Jet Airways and Kingfisher and other LCCs JetLite and Simplifly Deccan use aerobridges, but an executive of one of the carriers said because of the extra charges, it is definitely costlier to use an aerobridge at the Bangalore airport.

"BIAL is the first to introduce usage-based cost. This also applies to airlines using the aerobridge facility. The option gives the airlines the flexibility to monitor its costs as well as service offerings to its passengers. Charges depend on type of aircraft and duration of usage," said BIAL CEO Albert Bunner.

Setting up an aerobridge costs around $750,000. The Delhi airport is also introducing this facility in its new terminals, but executives of Delhi International Airport Limited (DIAL), clarified that they were not mulling any extra charge for the use of the aerobridges.

Airlines have also opposed a similar charge for use of aerobridges, which was being mulled at the Hyderabad greenfield airport.

The Hyderabad airport currently levies an overall charge for the usage of airport infrastructure, called the common infrastructure charges (CIC).

The current charges, which cover usage of aerobridges, common user terminal equipment (CUTE) and inline baggage systems, among other things, currently stand at Rs 85 per passenger, which would amount to around Rs 8,500 per flight taking an average of 100 passengers for one flight.

According to a spokesperson of GMR Hyderabad International Airport Ltd, some of the low-cost airlines did not want to pay for the aerobridges, saying they were not using them.

The spokesperson said discussions regarding the usage and charges were currently on and the issue would be resolved in a week or so. The Hyderabad airport currently has 12 aerobridges.

However, airline pilots said aerobridges would lead to faster turnaround time and thus more efficient handling of an aircraft.

What about the recent report that the advocate of BIAL claimed 14 million as its capacity against AAI study reoprt which says only 9.87million pax? Is not that putting integrity of BIAL in question? Why should BIAL inflate and make false claims on its capacity?

No recent report in newspapers of any official statistics - thats just your usual BS unofficial and false report - nice try.
If you were asking for my thoughts about what to do with that BS report- dump it in garbage can.

BIAL never said "Capacity of BIA is 14 million" - they said something else which you twisted to the lie you just said above. You twisted ur lack of integrity into BIAL's lack of integrity. Problem with you is you think 'everybody here are fools when compared to yourself and u can get away with saying anything'.

I remember answering one such question of yours about integrity and BIAL to which you coolly did not respond - please dont repeat redundant questions. You may read all my comments in their entireity and u will get a comprehensive answer to ur question above.

From now on you guys need a treatment of ur own medicine.

It is people like you who are selfish. You dont care about public from east,south or west but only want one airport BIAL nearby your house. Nobody has closed BIAL or asked for BIAL shut down till date. But it is BIAL and its coterie of narrow minded supporters who have forced shutdown of HAL airport thereby denying public a choice of second airport.


let's say that bial indeed has capacity problems and allow hal to start functioning for 3 years by which time bial builds this capacity. so, are you suggesting people in south migrate to near bial and essentially build a city around bial.

also, what exactly is the rated capacity of hal airport? i think it was 4 million although it handled in excess of 8 million. bial's rated capacity i believe is 12 million and should be able to handle even larger volumes in short term through operational efficiencies. you have other motives and different standards when comparing hal with bial. connectivity is an issue but that is govt's problem.

economics do not justify two airports in bangalore. now or for a long time to come.

check out below news report:



Bangalore still lies in south-east!

Wednesday, June 15, 2005
The Times of India

Bangalore: The south and east phenomenon shows no sign of slackening. Bangalore’s amazing growth in the past decade has been concentrated in these two directions, along an arc from Bannerghatta Road to Whitefield. Massive corporate campuses, large and numerous residential complexes and modern retail facilities have come up along this belt.

And a tally done by The Times of India of 107 upcoming large residential complexes finds there is unlikely to be a dramatic change occurring in this geographical lopsidedness. However, it does also indicate the beginnings of a challenge emerging from the north.

Of the 107 projects, 74 are in the south and east, with a good part of that (as many as 23) in Whitefield, easily the most happening location in the city now and referred to by many as the Gurgaon of Bangalore. About 14 of the new residential projects are in the north. And the rest are in traditional areas of Bangalore, including the central business district and Malleswaram/Rajajinagar. “I don’t see any major locational shift happening. Even in the south, which has seen the most development, we are still getting land, be it Hosur Road, Bannerghatta Road or Kanakapura Road,” says J.C. Sharma, managing director of Sobha Developers.

Neville Vaswani, director in Vaswani Estates Developers, says development will happen where people want to stay, which currently is areas like Whitefield, Sarjapur Road and the south. “For north Bangalore, the only driver at present is the international airport. But it is an area that will eventually come into its own,” he says.

Development of residential and retail facilities invariably follows commercial development. And that’s where the north and west still lag.

More at:
http://bangalorebuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/bangalore-still-lies-in-south-east.html


Checked this out friends!. IF THAT UNVERIFIED REPORT (of 2005) IS TRUE - then what a great opportunity to remove congestion and to promote equitable areawise distribution of development in the entire city?.
We are already on the right track!.

It is people like you who are selfish. You dont care about public from east,south or west but only want one airport BIAL nearby your house. Nobody has closed BIAL or asked for BIAL shut down till date. But it is BIAL and its coterie of narrow minded supporters who have forced shutdown of HAL airport thereby denying public a choice of second airport.

I think what Prakash meant was as long as BIAL has capacity problems, cannot encourage short haul flights and poor connectivity to city, there is no justification to the public for HAL airport shut down. Let first BIAL clear its problems first before directing HAL airport what to do.

Yes he is selfish- he is selfish for the overwhelming majority of people of Bangalore and in a rational way that is supported by economics(the economics has been explained by many people here). Whereas you are selfish only for yourself and there are a few just like you. Take a microcosm- just 3 people here support HAL reopening out of 30?.

You guys want to force shutdown of BIAL by reversing the Central Government's aviation policy based on which BIAL was made. Why this mafia tactics?.

Besides we (THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PUBLIC), care if our taxes are spent wisely. We cannot open the airport just for a few people - the entire public pay for fancy ride of just a few people? - what sort of economics is that?.,, And so its you people who are selfish- but you blatantly lie over and over again.
And finally we cannot allow the wasteful AAI which wasted a significant percentage of the '100s of 1000s of crores' that were spent to construct 100 plus substandard airports(which have been rated among the worst in the world) to be entrusted with running HAL - such irresponsible people who cant account for a mammoth amount of public tax payer money should be eased out whereever possible(to avoid more of the same).

check out below news report:



Bangalore still lies in south-east!

Wednesday, June 15, 2005
The Times of India

Bangalore: The south and east phenomenon shows no sign of slackening. Bangalore’s amazing growth in the past decade has been concentrated in these two directions, along an arc from Bannerghatta Road to Whitefield. Massive corporate campuses, large and numerous residential complexes and modern retail facilities have come up along this belt.

And a tally done by The Times of India of 107 upcoming large residential complexes finds there is unlikely to be a dramatic change occurring in this geographical lopsidedness. However, it does also indicate the beginnings of a challenge emerging from the north.

Of the 107 projects, 74 are in the south and east, with a good part of that (as many as 23) in Whitefield, easily the most happening location in the city now and referred to by many as the Gurgaon of Bangalore. About 14 of the new residential projects are in the north. And the rest are in traditional areas of Bangalore, including the central business district and Malleswaram/Rajajinagar. “I don’t see any major locational shift happening. Even in the south, which has seen the most development, we are still getting land, be it Hosur Road, Bannerghatta Road or Kanakapura Road,” says J.C. Sharma, managing director of Sobha Developers.

Neville Vaswani, director in Vaswani Estates Developers, says development will happen where people want to stay, which currently is areas like Whitefield, Sarjapur Road and the south. “For north Bangalore, the only driver at present is the international airport. But it is an area that will eventually come into its own,” he says.

Development of residential and retail facilities invariably follows commercial development. And that’s where the north and west still lag.

More at:
http://bangalorebuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/bangalore-still-lies-in-south-east.html


Report from 2005???