Hey all!

Anyone got any idea where I can find info on this plan? It sounded excellent, but I can only find dribs and drabs online.

All help appreciated!

Hey all!

Anyone got any idea where I can find info on this plan? It sounded excellent, but I can only find dribs and drabs online.

All help appreciated!

It has been abandoned. Occasionally there is some rumour it might go ahead. Liverpool has an underground system and an abundance of tunnels under the city with countless overland trackbed all waiting to be re-used.

Trams are unnecessary as the existing disused infrastructure is waiting to be re-commissioned. When this done trams can fill any gaps in the system.

Thanks for the reply.

I know it was abandoned, but would like to see 'what could have been'!

The Merseytram hasn't been abandoned. The government contribution towards it is still on the table for now, and a couple of months back, interested parties were reportedly still working towards submitting a new application in the Autumn. The tracks have already been purchased and are in storage, and many of the developments underway or recently completed have allowed for the Merseytram to be added at a later date - the arena, Liverpool One and the Pier Head works to name just three. It's also worth noting that the new Mersey crossing at Runcorn also includes capacity for a light rail system - something most people assume to be an extension of the line to the airport, should it ever get built.

The scheme that failed the last time consisted of four major parts - the city centre loop, and lines 1, 2, & 3. Photo tours of the City Centre Loop, Line 1 and Line 2 can be found here - http://www.mersey-tram.com/detail.php

Line 3 was in its very early stages when the previous application failed. This would have seen the line spur off the City Centre Loop and head up Parliament Street, onto Smithdown Road, and then split into two routes. One would have seen the line run along Allerton Road, Mather Avenue, Horrocks Avenue, Speke Road, and then turned along Speke Hall Avenue towards the airport. The second route would have travelled as far as the Allerton Road/Queens Drive junction, before heading off along Menlove Avenue, Hillfoot Road, Hillfoot Avenue, Woodend Avenue, and Western Avenue, before meeting the other route at the airport.

Should the new application be approved, then it's likely the route(s) will very closely shadow those previously proposed. The routes themselves were never an issue that caused the downfall of the previous application (although admittedly indecisiveness over which route should be built first played its part). Whether anything ever happens remains to be seen, but we're well placed in terms of preparatory work already being done, tracks already being bought, and the routes of the lines being acknowledged when new developments are granted planning permission. All we need now is the government to play ball.

the LET's tram system proposals where different to the over bloated public sector rip off 'Mersey Tram'. The 'principle' of public ownership of public transport in Merseyside meant that all the experts backed Merseytram and gave the LETs one the cold shoulder. It is ran by a professor called Lesely Lewis, and runs systems in other cities. They wanted to put a line out (as phase one) to the airport from downtown for about £120m... all raised privately.


All hail the soviet?

the LET's tram system proposals where different to the over bloated public sector rip off 'Mersey Tram'. The 'principle' of public ownership of public transport in Merseyside meant that all the experts backed Merseytram and gave the LETs one the cold shoulder. It is ran by a professor called Lesely Lewis, and runs systems in other cities. They wanted to put a line out (as phase one) to the airport from downtown for about £120m... all raised privately.


All hail the soviet?


Tony, Are you sure that this system has been used in other cities? I thought that proposals had been made to run a system in Edinburgh but this was turned down for reasons of practicality.

Thanks for the reply.

I know it was abandoned, but would like to see 'what could have been'!

Look at what we might have using the old tunnels.

the LET's tram system proposals where different to the over bloated public sector rip off 'Mersey Tram'. The 'principle' of public ownership of public transport in Merseyside meant that all the experts backed Merseytram and gave the LETs one the cold shoulder. It is ran by a professor called Lesely Lewis, and runs systems in other cities. They wanted to put a line out (as phase one) to the airport from downtown for about £120m... all raised privately.


All hail the soviet?

Is that the lad who designed the Trampower tram which ran trials at Birkenhead Heritage Tramway and Blackpool?

Is that the lad who designed the Trampower tram which ran trials at Birkenhead Heritage Tramway and Blackpool?

Indeed.

Tony, where 'all round the world' are his trams running?

My understanding was it was all concept plans, with nothing bing proven in the real world, as such was an enormous risk and DID require significant funding from the state to get it off the ground.

I thought this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6300113.stm was the only 'real' tram that they ever produced to prove the theory of their privately ran trams.

For what it's worth, the replacement for that tram will not be back in Blackpool for at least 2 years. Prehaps Liverpool was very lucky that the councillors did not go down this route after all?

Talking about public / private funding of public transport schemes, can anyone provide any examples of TOTALLY privately funded public transport systems anywhere in the world?

The only one I know of is the Channel Tunnel, and look at the financial mess that has been in since it started operating.

Indeed.

Tony, where 'all round the world' are his trams running?

My understanding was it was all concept plans, with nothing bing proven in the real world, as such was an enormous risk and DID require significant funding from the state to get it off the ground.

I thought this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6300113.stm was the only 'real' tram that they ever produced to prove the theory of their privately ran trams.


What is so special about this tram?

What is so special about this tram?

Other than it caught fire?

Not 100% sure, other than it was a total new design for trams, and supposedly only had the bare minimum that a tram would need.

There are reasons why large companies, such as Alstrom and Bombardier, charge a fair amount for trams (Bombardier Swift trams that are coming to Manc in Phase 3a are costed at about £2m a piece), it is because they are seriously complex beasts, that have evolved over lots of time to what they are now.

Without wanting to get very technical, from the 1st Oct this year a new regulation (ROGS) applies to light rail as well as heavy rail - this changes dramatically how risk (not financial, but health and saftey) will be managed, ROGS will make it very hard indeed for small start ups to get involved as they will have to shoulder the entire risk of anything that may go wrong.

It'll be much easier for Bombardier to get insurance than some small start up business.

Not 100% sure, other than it was a total new design for trams, and supposedly only had the bare minimum that a tram would need.


The original trams were so simple it was unbelievable. The pick up went to the a resistor (accelerator handle) and then to the motor.

Look at this electric Mini - which is now feasible having a 200 mile plus range.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/the_hybrid_mini.php
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

Solid state motor-in-wheel hub arrangement with brake regen. A tram can but back into the system a lot of electricity by braking. I can't see what is complex about any tram.

Think it is all the huge amount of health and saftey involved.

For what it's worth, TOCs have to pay in the region of £100k / year per carrage from the train owners - operating any trains / trams / tube is very expensive unfortunately.

Oh, and the Bombardier MOVIA underground trains, which typically have six carriages, costs no less than $6m per unit, normally much more, so don't start claiming that Liverpool could somehow develop and underground for next to nothing, the cost of the train set alone would be enormous.

Oh, and the Bombardier MOVIA underground trains, which typically have six carriages, costs no less than $6m per unit, normally much more, so don't start claiming that Liverpool could somehow develop and underground for next to nothing, the cost of the train set alone would be enormous.

It is needed to project the city forwards - the infrastructure is largely there. Trams are lost cause and solve little.

I was at Moorfields Station a few days ago and one man sitting next to me said the Waterloo Tunnel is being cleared out for rails to be laid. He said for goods trains to use the existing tracks which are still under the Dock Rd. Sounds mad to me. Is this true?

Tony, Are you sure that this system has been used in other cities? I thought that proposals had been made to run a system in Edinburgh but this was turned down for reasons of practicality.

martin and Metro. I don't actually know. As you both know I have not been following stuff liek that for the last few years. The last time I spoke to Lewis Lesley he was in for a few contracts and the last I heard.. sort of accidentally, through the grapevine, he had won some!

Sorry, can't be of any more help.

I am fairly confident in saying that he has 'won' no contracts outside of Blackpool, where is was a prototype, not even being paid by anyone.

The fact is his plans are not ever going to be thorough enough ever to get approval to be built anywhere.

The fire in Blackpool has just about killed of any slim chances he did have of developing his proposals anywhere.

With regards the MerseyTram proposals, it is now the summer recess in 2008, the T&W Acts expire for MerseyTram in two years now, time really is ticking for this project to get off the ground.

With regards the MerseyTram proposals, it is now the summer recess in 2008, the T&W Acts expire for MerseyTram in two years now, time really is ticking for this project to get off the ground.

While I'm certain we need some type of tram system, I'm not sure that the previous plans completely hit the spot, so maybe it would be for the best if they were forced into having another go at it? I dunnos...