Before the war Angola and Mozambique were richer than Portugal [Archive]

Matthias Offodile

August 16th, 2008, 07:00 PM

Matthias, the immigrants were VERY connected to Portugal. That is why they all fled so quickly after the war unlike in Rhoedesia where half the whites at least stayed. MOst of them were only 1st or 2nd generation- remember that mass white immigration to these countries was a relatively recent thing compared to Zimbabwe and SA.

They were not, really! The reason why they fled was due to the war, the first president of Mozambique pleaded the Whites to stay. Moreover, there were also many and I say many black Angolan that fled too. I am not talking of the war refugees but there were many that left due to war together with the whites.

Zimabwe and SA had no wars! That´s a huuuuuge difference! Just imagine what SA would look like today when their independence was not as smooth as planned by Mandela, it would have made the independent period of the former Belgian Congo look like a cheery kinderplay play, really I am not kiding. Just be honest to yourself and ask how SA would look like today when a Mobutu style leader had taken over?

Anyway, out of interest some time ago, I looked for numbers and between 100 000-120 000 whites in Angola remained...and the majority of those that fled didn´t leave for Portugal or only for short period many fled to Brazil (and they still define themselves as "Angolans", I have read countless skyblog and seen and read a lot about these two countries (and Angola in particular, I am also fully aware about the bad sides of Portuguese colonialism in Angola) the past two years about Angola)..there is also a relatively strong Portuguese-speaking community in SA today and guess where they come from?

And Why are we talking about colonialism? These figures simply show that Portugal was poorer than Angola at a certian time in history, this is a plain fact and nothing more. This is nothing against beautiful Angola nor beautiful Portugal, but can´t we swallow facts?:)

It is a plain fact as well that Angola without a war that was most damaging to its population and the infrastructure would look different TODAY than what we see now. (despite the great new structures, Angola is tsill marked by signs of war. we should not forget this) Although I am very happy for Angola that it rises from the ashes after more than a generation in turmoil, it still has to work very hard to attain its position it would have inherited after 1975...it might reach this position again in 10, maybe 15 years (in terms of fully rebuilt cities and villages, electricity generation, roads and bridges schools etc). So let´s say this will be by 2020...Angola will be in 2020 were it stood in 1975...from there it has to build up again!!! from aposition it COULD HAVE embarked upon at time of independence. In the meantime so many countries have races past Angola and catching up will be twice as hard now.

Whereever I am looking in Africa I just these so many lost years (except Botswana and Mauritius) or stalled development and all we can say is nothing??? take Nigeria it has the 25 strongest economy by 1980 in the world. ..and with lot less misery and poverty than we see today in Nigeria. This frustrates me tremendously!!!!

It is a plain fact that Ghana at time of independence was in a better position than South Korea, older figures show this!! Why is Ghana which was the first nation to becoem independent still hasn´t moved as much as it was predicted. we are taling of half a century, two generations!!!:ohno:

Matthias Offodile

August 16th, 2008, 07:20 PM

Mozambique

1960: #111 Mozambique: $463.42 per capita 1960 ..
compared to countries such as Portugal #129 Portugal: $357.06 per capita 1960

1995 #201 Mozambique: $141.72 per capita 1995 ..

Côte d´ivoire before and after the economic miracle driven by agriculture/agro-industries

1960: #164 Côte d'Ivoire: $153.55 per capita 1960

1970 #156 Côte d'Ivoire: $272.81 per capita 1970 ...

#138 Côte d'Ivoire: $590.65 per capita 1975 ..

#112 Côte d'Ivoire: $1,219.43 per capita 1980 .. (at its height)

#139 Côte d'Ivoire: $745.50 per capita 1995 ..

Angola..lost a lot despite oil exploration

#83 Angola: $1,118.64 per capita 1970 ...

#167 Angola: $410.40 per capita 1995 ...

Nigeria´s figures

#183 Nigeria: $102.68 per capita 1960 ...

#165 Nigeria: $241.93 per capita 1970 ...

#127 Nigeria: $937.97 per capita 1980 ... (at the end of the heydays)

#167 Nigeria: $362.19 per capita 1985 ...

#186 Nigeria: $270.50 per capita 1995 ... (during Nigeria worst times)

Now let´s take Thailand (2nd generation Asian tiger)

#182 Thailand: $103.78 per capita 1960 ...

#172 Thailand: $195.46 per capita 1970 ...

#161 Thailand: $360.43 per capita 1975 ...

#148 Thailand: $698.28 per capita 1980 ...

#132 Thailand: $768.61 per capita 1985 ..

#86 Thailand: $2,878.09 per capita 1995 ..

#107 Thailand: $1,856.53 per capita 1998 ...(after Asia´s financial crisis)

Botswana

#202 Botswana: $53.09 per capita 1960 ... (fifth poorest country in the world)

#57 Botswana: $5,918.21 per capita 2005

Africa has to outpace all the Asian tigers now!!! This will be an uphill struggle, that´s bitter reality!

Maybe a collapse or a complete stagnation of some Asian countries for a generation could make things easier!

Matthias Offodile

August 16th, 2008, 08:18 PM

Ghana´s size of economy in 1960..so it was the 45th biggest economy in the world

#45 Ghana: 1,217,153,000 1960 ...

the fourth biggest in Africa of those that were listed

#17 South Africa: 7,342,226,000 1960 ...

#24 Nigeria: 4,196,175,000 1960 ...

#31 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: 3,359,404,000 1960 ..

The Congo (ex-Zaire) is another big surprise for me:cheers:

agostinho

August 16th, 2008, 08:40 PM

popa1980

August 17th, 2008, 12:59 PM

Yes, all this reminiscing of the "good old days" under Portuguese rule is an insult to those who layed down their lives for freedom. Unfortunately that freedon was followed by a CIA/South African- created war.

Yes, Ghana was in the strongest position after independene mainly because a British governor, the 20s, the best leader that Ghana has over had (Gold Coast at the time)- encouraged a policy of developing the colony for the "natives" as opposed to colonial interests. As a result Ghana had huge foreign reserves per capita compared to the other developing nations at the time, and many univeristy graduates- there were porbably more university graduates in my extended family in the 1950s than there were total black university graduates in the WHOLE of Mozambique- the sad thing is this is not a joke!

Lets move on! Forward ever, backward never!

Matthias Offodile

August 17th, 2008, 05:34 PM

Yes, all this reminiscing of the "good old days" under Portuguese rule is an insult to those who layed down their lives for freedom. Unfortunately that freedon was followed by a CIA/South African- created war.

Are you aware of the fact that t some of the most prominent freedom figters /vocal critical minds of colonial policy in Angola were white Angolans (descendants of Portuguese)??

If there is one things that I don´t like then it is stereotype, "white" doesn ´t mean automactically "evil" or "bad"! When I lived in Africa, I have seen so many white people that loved the continent and contributed a lot to its development. Most of my parents friends are mixed-race married couples and they are still almost all happiliy married. In your mind white is automatically "devilish", I at times have the impression, maybe a false one.:)

Popa1980, you know that I carry my heart on my tongue! The only reason why I am reminiscent of the past (or let´s say like to look at old pictures, not only in Africa but around the world) is not because of colonialism (NEVER!!) but things had more order and structure in Africa, whereever you look at old personal photos things looked "idyllic" to what they are now! even when you look at old post-colonial pictures (70´S AND 80´S) cities were more ordered and cleaner than they are now. I WANT THEM TO LOOK LIKE THAT AGAIN!

Yes, Ghana was in the strongest position after independene mainly because a British governor, the 20s, the best leader that Ghana has over had (Gold Coast at the time)- encouraged a policy of developing the colony for the "natives" as opposed to colonial interests. As a result Ghana had huge foreign reserves per capita compared to the other developing nations at the time, and many univerity graduates- there were porbably more university graduates in my extended family in the 1950s than there were total black university graduates in the WHOLE of Mozambique- the sad thing is this is not a joke!

Hmmh, show me the facts, the numbers and stats! What you are writing sounds like what the Dutch had done in Indonesia, from there I have seen the plain facts, I checked it in university library, I had to present a paper, that´s why!
You make it sound that Ghana was the only developed country at that time.
You are aware that apart from the French no other colonial power granted the "colonized" the status of French citizen..and the Englsih were very famous for practising apartheid. (All did it of course, but the British and Dutch excelled in it)
btw, ...most of the black American peoplethat which were viciously oppreessed in the USA emmigrated to France during the 40´s, 50´s and 60´s. PEOPLE do seem to have forgotten this...when they look at the USA today, they only look at fun, glamour and happy people!

Moreover, colonial policy had a lot to do whether the country was a dictorship (in case of Portugal), a monarchy (England, Belgium or Spain) or a democracy (France).

Lets move on! Forward ever, backward never!

Yes, because the past is gone but needs to be dealt with in order to make the future look good and bright.

HirakataShi

August 17th, 2008, 05:36 PM

Before the war Angola and Mozambique were richer than Portugal

Well that might explain why Portugal held on until 1975, after other European countries had decolonised. Portugal didn't want to lose its cash cow!

And it explains the real reason why South Africa moved in. To get rid of potential competition.

Matthias Offodile

August 17th, 2008, 05:55 PM

Well that might explain why Portugal held on until 1975, after other European countries had decolonised. Portugal didn't want to lose its cash cow!

And it explains the real reason why South Africa moved in. To get rid of potential competition.

No, this was not the ONLY case! one of the biggest foreign investors in Angola in the past were German companies. You had the MAN high-building which I have seen on old pictures and many big German companies, teh Italisns were present to and even the French....you didn´t find this in any other Europena colony, they wer either fully British or fully French!

...the Portuguese were suprised when they were connfronted with decolonisation movement, because they no longer defined Mozambique and Angola as "colonies". (I have read a book)

But enough of this old historic stuff now, please!

But one thing is sure, Mozambique and Angola without two devastating wars would have looked very different from today...Luanda would have had all these endless slums, developemnt would have been more decentralised (you had many good cities), just imagine what Huambo would look like today....all the mega oil exploration would have started in Angola in the 70´s like it was the case in Nigeria or the Arabian Gulf States, this would have set in an enormous building boom and less and less poverty. If things had gone well, Angola would be better than Malaysia today, not just economically but socially too! 15 million people are good to manage and give a good standard of living.

Now it has to claim from below again and SA won´t have a counterweight for the next two genrations to come, most probably!

Competition is always a good thing!

PS: I am still waiting for the African leader that is a mixture between Mandela (in terms of humanity), former Ivorian president F-Houphoet-Boigny (being clever and placing emphasis on economics rather than poltics), Nkrumah (for nationalist and visionary thinking in a postive way) and L.S.Senghor (for the bright philosophical mind)...I know this type of leader will come one day!:cheers:

agostinho

August 17th, 2008, 09:03 PM

this man or boy can't understand anything, ok matthias if you think black peolple hold something against white people just because we expose our points of view about the subject.let's pretend that you are right and end of the subject.:bow:

Matthias Offodile

August 17th, 2008, 09:12 PM

Agostinho, I was refering to Popa1980, please do not generalize and everybody should be free to expose his or her thoughts. Popa1980 expressed his, so here were mine! We are all grown ups, so let´s end the discussion here!

:)

Carver02

August 18th, 2008, 01:59 AM

And Why are we talking about colonialism? These figures simply show that Portugal was poorer than Angola at a certian time in history, this is a plain fact and nothing more.
No, again what your figures show is that Angola had a higher per capita GDP than Portugal. This doesn't tell us what the standard of living was.

Imagine a country with large exports of something (oil, minerals, etc.). Those exports increase the country's GDP and, hence, the per capita GDP. But if you want to know how 'poor' or 'wealthy' the people were you then have to look at how that revenue was distributed. Was it shared by only a few? Was it used to develop infrastructure for only a few? Or was it used for the many?

Popa1980, you know that I carry my heart on my tongue! The only reason why I am reminiscent of the past (or let´s say like to look at old pictures, not only in Africa but around the world) is not because of colonialism (NEVER!!) but things had more order and structure in Africa, whereever you look at old personal photos things looked "idyllic" to what they are now! even when you look at old post-colonial pictures (70´S AND 80´S) cities were more ordered and cleaner than they are now. I WANT THEM TO LOOK LIKE THAT AGAIN!The "idyllic" pictures of whites drinking tea at a golf club and the blacks serving them? The "idyllic" pictures where everything in the picture was owned by whites? The "idyllic" pictures where the only role for blacks was to clean and serve whites??????

As we say in the states, you are off your rocker, Matthias.

Those "idyllic" days should never and will never return.

Moreover, colonial policy had a lot to do whether the country was a dictorship (in case of Portugal), a monarchy (England, Belgium or Spain) or a democracy (France).
Yeah, this is a good point.

popa1980

August 18th, 2008, 04:10 PM

I am glad to see that most of you are all not fooled by the nice photos of the "good ole days".

Matt, check out the book called "recordacoes de Lourences Marques", I saw it in a lisbon bookshop. Its a photo album of Maputo in 50s and 60s. Yes, in all the restaurants, department stores etc it was virtually all whites. Also, even in the street scenes...most people are white....why? Because there were 2 Maputos- half of it reserved for whites and Asians- which is the one you see in all those photos you are so proud off. The bigger black population was squashed in the other half- which was more "authentic" Africa.

And yes, the white immigrants were critical of colonial policy. Just like the white Rhodesians who declared the UDI in 1965! What were the motives?

Please Matt, the French attempted to erradicate indigenous culture and create some sort of "greater France". They were very succeful in creating a black Europeanised-middle class. Even today, do the Francophone countries have real independence? look how many times France has interevened in their internal affairs and compare it to the British. That is why today the elite in black Francophone countries try to pretend to be French...with their croissants and stuff...its quite tragic to see. They were so smug to Ghanaians- "look, we dont live in Africa..we live in Abidjan" was the taunt....now look at them! I notice that even today British multinationals in Ghana often have Ghanaian presidents...Barclays, UniLever etc. Very rarely do you see that in Sengal or Ivory Coast.
Go to a rich Ghanaian or Nigerians house and they will be proud of their culture and will eat indigenous food! The fact is, the average British colonial subject was better off than the French (except in Cameroon of course).

Both the British and the French generally respected local culture though compared to the Spanish and Portuguese.....

1) British India...3 centuries of Britsh rule..cuture, Hindu religion and names intact

2) Portuguese Goa...4 centuries of rule....Catholics, beef-eating, Westernized, portuguese surnames.

Anyway, back to the main point...now for the cold, hard reality Matthias.

popa1980

August 18th, 2008, 04:29 PM

by Franz J. T. Lee

Article in

“Review of International Affairs”, Vol. XV, No. 334, Belgrade, March 5, 1964

On education..

"In 1956 out of a total population of 6.000.000 (census figures, although this figure was probably much higher) only 284,000 (including whites) received education. In 1954 there were 183,092 pupils in rudimentary schools, being reserved almost exclusively for Africans. Of these only 3,595 took the final examination (after three years) and of them 2,774 passed. In 1955 there were 212,428 pupils in Catholic rudimentary schools; of these only 2,761 passed to continue their education in the primary schools. In 1954 there were 120 Africans in commercial, industrial and secondary schools in the whole of Mozambique. In the elite Liceu - the preparatory school for university level - there were 5 Africans and 800 (eight hundred) white students; no African has ever completed the whole Liceu course. There is no university in Portuguese Africa. All higher education has to be acquired in Portugal or in other countries. The outcome is that less than 1% of the Africans are officially reckoned to be literate (1950 census). This is an important factor in explaining why political organization and revolutionary work are of such a low level in Mozambique (see later)."

On social....

"Any observer can attest the most flagrant and classic type of discrimination in Mozambique. Hospitals have black and white wards; restaurants have notices stating: „Admission Reserved“; the hotels employ an all-white staff; in buses and trains, in parks and gardens, all over there is strict discrimination. A bus-ride in Lourenco Marques costs the quarter of an African daily wage. Pricelevels seal Africans off from white commercial, social and entertainment centres. Specially designed rents impose separate white and African townships. In Lourenco Marques, just like in Cape Town or Johannesburg, there is a permanent curfew for Africans after nine o’clock in the evening. The African is forced to carry a pass - a „cadernato“ - in order that he can be controlled and efficiently enslaved. One sees the whole Apartheid and Baasskap policy of the Herrenvolk of South Africa here at work".

popa1980

August 18th, 2008, 04:30 PM

Mozambique's Former Ambassador Visits Logan High School

A Discussion with Valeriano Ferrao
"...when we joined the liberation struggle we decided to become free... to be independent. This has no price. It is better to be poor but free andmaster of yourself than to be rich and still a slave."
In the spring of 1995 students from James Logan High School gathered to hear Valeriano Ferrao, Mozambique's former ambassador to the United States. He addressed several hundred Logan students in the school's Little Theater. Valeriano Ferrao was independent Mozambique's very first ambassador to the United States serving from 1984 until 1992. Mr. Ferrao, a Mozambican of Indian descent, grew up in Mozambique during the 1950's and joined the Mozambican Liberation Front (FRELIMO) while it was fighting against Portuguese control of Mozambique during the 1960's and 1970's. Mr. Ferrao was a colleague of Mozambique's first president Samora Machel. Mr. Ferrao currently lives in Mozambique where he is working with women in the peasant cooperative movement. Below are exerpts of his talk to Logan students.

What was it like growing up in Mozambique?

When I was in school I was a naughty boy but I studied hard and I passed my exams. We were very poor and I started work at 17...When the Portuguese controlled Mozambique there was discrimination like apartheid (racial discrimination) in South Africa. In my town if you went to the post office or bank there were two lines, one for whites and one for blacks. And there was a separate section of the bus that blacks had to sit in.

How were Mozambicans treated by the Portuguese?

The white settlers from Portugal had all the opportunities in schools, businesses, health care, ... in everything. This is why the black majority of the population decided to struggle for independence. The white minority had their rights, the majority had no political rights. In 1962 Mozambicans formed the Mozambican Liberation Front (FRELIMO). I joined this organization in 1963. We used guerrilla war and it took us ten years to succeed. We became independent from Portugal in 1975.

Was participation in the liberation struggle worthwhile?

I must tell you one thing when we joined the liberation struggle we decided to become free... to be independent. This has no price. It is better to be poor but free and master of yourself than to be rich and still a slave.

What role did the "Arts" play in your liberation?

During the colonial times it was forbidden for Mozambicans to have their own identity. But during the liberation movement people played their own music and sang their own songs. Theater groups moved from village to village and plays were used to explain the goals of the liberation movement. Now we have lots of theater, music, and poetry. No one should stop one's mind from developing in terms of art.

How do you feel about the Portuguese people now?

We were not against the Portuguese people but we were against the Portuguese who exploited us. We were against the Portuguese authorities... the government, military, and police. I must tell you that I have been to Portugal several times and the Portuguese people are a very good people. They are a nice and helpful people. Today is different, there are not master and slave relations. We do not forget what the Portuguese did but we must forgive.

What role did the US play during the Independence movement?

The American administration during out struggle for independence was on the wrong side. The US trained Portuguese pilots and military officers.

What problems did Mozambique face after its independence?

Immediately after our independence our new government was attacked by the white minority regimes in South Africa and Rhodesia. They did not like our new government and they attacked it with propaganda, economic warfare, and guerrilla army. For 16 years the RENAMO guerrillas destroyed property, damaged roads in Mozambique, and killed thousands of people. The total destruction of this war has been estimated at 14 billion US dollars.

What problems does Mozambique currently face?

Fortunately, we ended the civil war three years ago. Our country is not poor in natural resources. We have fertile soil, many mineral resources, prawns and seafood. However, we only export 150 million dollars worth of goods but we receive 800 million dollars in goods. This debt increases yearly. The International Monetary Fund says we must keep our wages low if we are to continue receiving aid. Many Mozambicans are very poor. The government has built many schools but over 60% of Mozambique's population is still illiterate.

What role do women play in Mozambique?

I am currently working with the peasant cooperatives in Mozambique. 95% of the people in the cooperatives are women and they are doing a very good job. Most of the women are raising chickens. Although the freedom for women has increased in our society, many men still have old attitudes towards women.

What religions are practiced in Mozambique?

We have Christians, Muslims, and people who practice traditional religions in Mozambique. We accept the principle that people from each religion are free to celebrate their own holidays.

Do you consider yourself an Indian-Mozambican?

No, we don't use those terms. I am a Mozambican. In Mozambique you are either a Mozambican or a foreigner. In Mozambique there was a big struggle against -tribalism and racism. My ancestors were from India but we don't call someone an Indian-Mozambican or a Chinese-Mozambican. We still use Portuguese as our national language because we don't want to cause conflict by selecting one of the many tribal languages. If you are a Mozambican you are a Mozambican.

How are African-Americans treated when they travel to Mozambique?

We will be friendly and assist an African-American or a white-American who visits Mozambique. We have had many white and black Americans come to help and work in Mozambique. They will be treated the same way.

popa1980

August 18th, 2008, 04:54 PM

Wow 120 Africans educated at secondary level in 1954, thats less than in a single Britsh-run boarding school in Ghana! By independence...we had a university (University of Ghana) and soon to be university (University of Kumasi) already. As well as several polytechnics. My grandfather was a school bursar, brother and half-brother doctors (Edinburgh and London educated), little brother a lawyer, another brother an engineer. The other siblings (14 in total) all went to middle-school at least. Its not uncommon in Ghana to find people who are 3rd/4th generation "professional"-class.

popa1980

August 18th, 2008, 04:59 PM

"Rather than developing the country, the Portuguese simply rented out the available resources. This included human labour hired to neighbouring countries, particularly South Africa and Rhodesia, thus removing a large segment of the male labour force. Even more Mozambican men left the country after harsh working conditions were made worse by the rule of Fascist leader António Salazar in Portugal from 1932 to 1968. Salazar introduced cash crops such as cotton and rice and required all males over 15 to work on plantations for half the year, often in chains. Accompanying the rise in cash crops was a drastic drop in food production, leading to widespread famine in the 1940s and 1950s.

To make matters worse, the Portuguese made no pretence of social investment in Mozambique. Of the few schools and hospitals that did exist, most were in the cities and reserved for Portuguese, other whites and privileged African asimilados. It all came to a head in 1960, when Portuguese soldiers opened fire on peaceful demonstrators protesting taxes, killing about 600 people. The independence movement was born"

popa1980

August 18th, 2008, 05:02 PM

"The Salazar government encourages primarily poor Portuguese people to immigrate to the Mozambican colony. The population grows rapidly in Mozambique, but most of the new inhabitants are only bringing even more social problems to the area.

The Portuguese government rules the colony through a racist system similar to the South African apartheid. Schools are still only for the Portuguese population. It is forbidden by law for Africans to make any kind of business and the majority are forced to hard and dangerous labour on farms, in mines and in cotton production.

The catholic church expresses a commitment to educate the Africans. But only on their own conditions which includes obligatory Christianity and support to the fascist regime. Mozambicans can only avoid being used as forced labour by becoming "assimilados" –meaning that they willingly give up their own culture and indigenous beliefs. These assimilados are (at least in theory) allowed to get basic education. Among the requirements are that the Africans has to wear shoes, eat with fork and knife and prove that they are not sleeping on the floor! Only very few chooses this humiliating solution to solve their misery"

popa1980

August 18th, 2008, 05:10 PM

And here is something about the great French

"Assimilation’ was a policy dating back to the 19th century when the French vision for Africa was to construct an empire which assimilated not only the geographies and economies of the colonised nations, but also the cultures of these nations. The common European colonial agenda of developing “backward” economies and bringing “heathen” peoples to Christ, was shared by the French. But what made the French enterprise somewhat different from the general European scrabble for resources was the emphais placed on culture. The colonial lobby of the day believed in its mission to bring ‘civilisation’ and ‘enlightenment’ to what were held to be ‘barbarian’ races. It was in this spirit that France introduced sweeping legal reforms in the wake of the 1848 revolution to encourage foreign-born peoples to assimilate into the French ‘universal civilisation’. There was a view commonly held in France in the 19th century, and championed by the leaders of the colonial party who included the famous Education Secretary, Jules Ferry and Léon Gambetta, Prime Minister during the Third Republic and leader of the French Colonial Party, that all men, irrespective of colour, race or country of origin, could be educated into becoming Frenchmen. But French thinking on issues of race, civilisation and ‘assimilation’ did not cross gender boundaries. While it was believed that any man who was open and receptive to French education could be assimilated into French culture, the same was not throught to be true for women. The offer also came with geographical constraints. French education in French West Africa was only developed to any degree in Senegal. Being the first region to attract French settlers in the early 17th century it became the most comprehensively colonised territory by the 19th. In the middle of the 19th century the Governor-General of Senegal, Louis Faidherbe, an ardent assimilationist, set out to create a French education system for Africa. This attempt at assimilation was carried out only in four towns, all situated along the coast of Senegal including the old and new colonial centres, Saint Louis and Dakar, the town of Rufisque and Gorée Island, the old slaving fort situated a few kilometres off the coast of Dakar. These centres became known as the 'four communes' - the towns where the African population could apply for French citizenship and where, for a short time, they could even vote in French elections.

The comprehensive school system envisaged by assimilationists, such as Louis Faidherbe, never materialised. Girls’ education developed in Senegal , in the absence of any state support, due to the presence of a Catholic teaching order, the Sisters of St Joseph de Cluny. The Sisters began their teaching mission in Senegal in the 1820s. Between 1822 and 1852 they taught an academic curriculum to just a couple of dozen girls from assimilated or French families (9).After the 1848 Revolution in France, the curriculum taught in the French Catholic girls’ schools in Africa was fundamentally changed. From being an essentially academic programme o fstudy, it became a skills-based training course in domestic service. The numbers of girls enrolled in schools increased tenfold after the curriculum was changed. Now mission schools were producing girls who were trained to carry out domestic chores and whose skills could be put to use for the benefit of their own families or for local French families. Furthermore, in a bid to overcome local Muslim opposition to schooling, the French government banned all proselytising by the Catholic Church in schools and threatened to close Catholic-run schools where teachers were known to be preaching the Christian faith. In practice some Catholic girls' schools were forced to close on the grounds that the education being delivered there undermined local traditions regarding the role of women in society. In fact, the social, economic and political roles of girls and women in the region were infinitely varied, a point on which the Savineau Reports provide ample evidence"

And the best

"Part of the difference in these attitudes must stem from the difference in long-term intentions for the different colonies. In France, a theme in overseas expansion was the furtherance of universal ‘civilisation’, whose model remained the Enlightenment belief in Reason and the rights of Man - in short, French culture. In spreading this, as Lord Hailey wrote in his 1956 African Survey, ‘the underlying assumption remained that, on a long view, the future of the overseas territories must be one of eventual integration with France in a larger political unit.’7 The Brazzaville Conference of 1944 made it clear that ‘The aims of France's civilizing mission accomplished in the colonies rules out any idea of autonomy, any possibility of evolution outside the French empire bloc; the eventual constitution, however remote, of self-government in the colonies is out of the question.’8 Britain, on the other hand, had just agreed through the Cripps Offer that the fundamental purpose of her rule in India was to prepare it for self-government and independence. Particularly in West Africa, this was always her ultimate aim. Guggisberg, the Governor of Gold Coast, only half-joked in 1923, ‘You are men and brothers with us. Some of you are very finely educated. We will give you self-government and see how you can govern yourselves. If that movement were to come within the next hundred years… Manchester merchants would be wise to cut their losses and start trade with some other part of the world.’9 "

popa1980

August 18th, 2008, 05:16 PM

In summary, Portuguese colonial rule created to worlds- one for whites, Indians, and assimilated blacks who had their cultures beaten from them The other for poor blacks. The reality was justa nother SA. Except both the whites and blacks there were better off.

Second point, the British and French had different colonial policies. The former- where there mostly to make money..and made little pretence about it....the latter- to create assimilated blacks- who spoke, acted and ate like French.

Carver02

August 18th, 2008, 05:34 PM

Thanks for those articles, popa1980. I thought that info on education and health care would be available online somewhere, but I hadn't gotten around to looking for it.

Matthias Offodile

August 18th, 2008, 08:39 PM

No, again what your figures show is that Angola had a higher per capita GDP than Portugal. This doesn't tell us what the standard of living was.

Imagine a country with large exports of something (oil, minerals, etc.). Those exports increase the country's GDP and, hence, the per capita GDP. But if you want to know how 'poor' or 'wealthy' the people were you then have to look at how that revenue was distributed. Was it shared by only a few? Was it used to develop infrastructure for only a few? Or was it used for the many?

You needn´t explain that to me, I had my economic courses at university!:)

The "idyllic" pictures of whites drinking tea at a golf club and the blacks serving them? The "idyllic" pictures where everything in the picture was owned by whites? The "idyllic" pictures where the only role for blacks was to clean and serve whites??????

Those "idyllic" days should never and will never return.

Did I say that they should return, oh boy...show that to me, please!

I only said that things had more ORDER AND STRUCTURE than they have today. I won´t enlarge on that any more. So many cities in africa look run down as compared to colonial times or the post-colonial period. Can´t they rest of africa look like South Africa, is that too much asked for??

Matthias Offodile

August 18th, 2008, 09:51 PM

Popa1980, The Portuguese were not like the apartheid regime in South Africa, they were not the "best" but by far not the worst. Read something about their concept of "tropicalimo".

I told you that colonialism had also a lot to do with the political system of the motherland.

For that I have studied different colonial system too extensively!

A big problem with all colonizers was that they began to move into the phase of construction too late. (except South africa but this was never a colony in the strict sense of the word)

All colonial societies were based upon inequality! and broad-based education was an enemy for colonialims. I have read that most educated Africans revolted against their whites oppressors...which is a logical conseqeunce

Please Matt, the French attempted to erradicate indigenous culture and create some sort of "greater France". They were very succeful in creating a black Europeanised-middle class. Even today, do the Francophone countries have real independence? look how many times France has interevened in their internal affairs and compare it to the British. That is why today the elite in black Francophone countries try to pretend to be French...with their croissants and stuff...its quite tragic to see. ich Ghanaian or Nigerians house and they will be proud of their culture.

So what does the elite in Nigeria or Ghana do? Hanging out in polo clubs and playing cricket, travelling to London, buying houses and flats for their girlfriends in London I know rich Nigerian people, believe it or not, they go to London to sleep, just to sleep! A nice hotel, some shopping and mostly sleeping and back to Lagos!

As for Abidjan:

This is just so wholly one-sided. Do you know what my father said the first time he visited Abidjan?? He was so suprised that white and Black people intermingled and talked to each other, French peolle sitting in simple restaurants 8British would have never gone into) as you know my father is Nigerian (pure 100%!!), he didn´t know this from Nigeria, I am talking about British and Nigerian interaction. In all the French colonies there was not the polo and high tea culture where blacks were only good to carry the bags. That clichés image you have about british former colonies.

go to any French cultural centrer today or msueum or whatever, you will see a lot of African culture. They are very actively promoting with a lot of effort african culture and artists today. There is so much cultural interchange between France, Quebec (t oa lesse degree) and Africa and Lebanon..even as far away as Vietnam.

Yes, France intervened a lot in its fomer colonies , this was not always to the advantage of countries, you are 100 %right. But my father always said that the British with their indirect rule were always as present behind the curtain as the French were with all their fanfare... the French you see them , the British played behind closed doors and manipulated:yes:... ..look at what the British had left in Niger Delta (Ogoni people and Shell oil company):ohno:. They always claimed not to intevene (the French had more this paternalist attitude , it is less the case for Sarkozy, the first of French presidents, btw )

One thing that I like about French people is close personal intimacy and I am talking about the time when even the presidents stepped down. Take Chirac and former president of Senegal (Abou Diouf), they are still closely related. One of Douf´s younger daughters got pregnant and guess who became the Godfather of that new-born? It is former president Chirac:) (who still travels to Africa several times a year and holds close contact to people) ..he is no longer president, so why should he care any more? Do you find this in former British African colonies? British people (the elite) is very cold-hearted, it is just only business and nothing in between.

In French colonies you had educated Africans were sitting in French parliament during colonial times!!! Senghor was the head of the Fench Academy of Arts - the most prestigious of all in France - and he was one of the most critical people together with Aimé césaire writing against French colonialims. you din´t have this neither with the British, nor german nor Belgians nor Portuguese etc.

Really all this begins to work up on me again, so can we cut it off here and concentrate on pictures again. :)

As for you glorified, British , popa 1980.

Friday, February 01, 2008

Sad Legacies Of British Colonialism: Pakistan, Kenya

The British colonial empires left a sad legacy of disorganization and violence in many countries, but none more so than in Pakistan and Kenya .Almost all former British countries are dysfunctional and have been for a long time.

Kenya has been a great deal in the news lately, following a failed election that spun the country into tribal strife and ethnic cleansing. Hundreds have been killed, while the Western powers and the United Nations try to stitch the East African country back together. So far, they have had little success.

But this is really not new for Kenya. I remember visiting Stanley Meisler, then the L.A. Times correspondent resident in Nairobi, in the fall of 1968. As I was about to go to bed in his spacious home, he pointed to a kind of sash hanging down over my bed. "Now," he explained, "if there are intruders during the night, just pull that, and the police will be here in two minutes."

"WHAT?" I exclaimed. "Oh," Meisler said, "We still have remnants of the Mau Mau in this neighborhood."

Under a facade of greater stability than bordering Uganda, Kenya has evolved into a more and more violent and corrupt place. While foreign correspondents based there often extolled its virtues, the present strife would not surprise the author Paul Theroux, who, in his book, "Dark Star Safari," reporting on a trip almost all overland from Cairo to Capetown in 2003, depicted Kenya as more corrupt at that moment than Uganda. I've been reading Theroux's book, because I'm about to undertake a long cruise around the African continent and am scheduled to spend three days in the Kenyan port of Mombasa. Theroux seems more aware of Kenya's problems than some correspondents long based there.

In Kenya, but also in Pakistan and, for that matter, the Holy Land, the British seem to have left a tradition of internecine strife. For one thing, they had tolerated tremendous ethnic divisions without really trying to do anything about them. And then, exhausted by World War II, they cleared out in a great rush, leaving a mess behind It might have been better had they been more perseverant about fulfilling what they had once said were their colonial responsibilities.

This is certainly true in Pakistan, which the British allowed to be partitioned from India, despite the fact that Mahatma Gandhi and other leaders of the Subcontinent thought it was a terrible idea.

And it has certainly turned out that way. Pakistan is a fundamentally unstable and violent country that often just doesn't work, and is now nuclear-armed with a growing terrorist insurgency that threatens the rest of the world.

Just yesterday, U.S. forces based in Afghanistan used a Predator, a drone aircraft, to fire a missile that killed an Al-Qaeda leader, Abu Laith al-Libi, in the North Waziristan borderland between Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is only nominally Pakistani territory. Foreign armies have been fighting over it going back to the 19th century and even before. It was never really stabilized under the British Raj. Now, it is a bigger threat than ever.

At the beginning of the year, two high-ranking American emissaries visited the Pakistani dictator, Pervez Musharraf, in the wake of the assassination of Benazir Bhutto to ask him to agree to allow American forces to pursue Al-Qaeda and the Taliban on Pakistani territory. Musharraf publicly said no. But the drone attack by the U.S. yesterday that killed al-Libi indicates that he may secretly have given the go-ahead. Such drone attacks began in 2002. In the last few months, they have intensified.

Pakistan is a real mess, and there may have to be American and Indian intervention there to prevent Al-Qaeda from taking control of the Pakistani nuclear arsenal. Almost anything is possible. Meanwhile, it is becoming another Iraq, with a proliferation of suicide attacks and assassinations. British failures during the colonial period helped cause today's strife.

Sam Zell, the new Tribune Co. owner, will meet with L.A. Times employees next Thursday. By then, the newspaper will probably have a new editor, and will have made its endorsements in the presidential campaign. In short, we should know more by then about the future of the paper, at least in the short term.

Colonial Policies of the British and French in Africa
A Comparison and Contrast

By Jonna Tharp, published Jun 01, 2007

The British and the French had very different colonial policies with the latter being more equal, if you can say such a thing about a country taking over another nation. The British practiced association which promised the blacks independence eventually, and the French practiced assimilation which treated the blacks as equals (French Blacks).

In means of colonial enforced education, the British were exclusive and the French were inclusive. The British only allowed African chiefs' children to obtain an education in their colonies. The French allowed all Africans in their colonies to obtain an education.

These niceties are of course not expected to be taken with the best intentions. Each country ruled their colonies in a way that would ensure a peaceful living without danger of uprisings.

In ways of government, the British let the African chiefs in their colonies continue to rule with Brits placed as figureheads of government. This was of course another way to try to appease the Africans who had been colonized. The French set up new governments and placed both Africans and Frenchmen in power since they claimed they were equal. I am sure that the positions Africans were placed in contained less power than the French positions, but on the surface this looks like an equal gesture.

In the area of Africans' way of life, the British condemned everything about them.They tried to convert as many Africans to Christianity as possible, gave them English names and didn't allow the teaching of African history and culture in their schools. The French regarded the Africans as "equals" so did not do this specific kind of damage but I doubt they pushed for the teaching of African history and culture in their schools.

They were so smug to Ghanaians- "look, we dont live in Africa..we live in Abidjan" was the taunt....now look at them!

I aggree many middle-class Ivorian (not to speak of the elite) were kind of aloof in the past and even discrimatory against Nigerians and other Ghanaians. I have a lot of examples to share with you but I won´t do it here. you can pm me if you feel like discussing about it.:)

Have a nice day, Popa1980:)

Carver02

August 18th, 2008, 09:57 PM

You needn´t explain that to me, I had my economic courses at university!:)

Did I say that they should return, oh boy...show that to me, please!

I only said that things had more ORDER AND STRUCTURE than they have today. I won´t enlarge on that any more. So many cities in africa look run down as compared to colonial times or the post-colonial period. Can´t they rest of africa look like South Africa, is that too much asked for??

If you look at the upper middle-class and wealthy neighborhoods Africans live in in cities like Nairobi, Accra, and even Lagos, they do look ordered and clean and structured. And those are the areas that are analogous to the whites-only areas of the colonial area. Look at all the nice suburbs of Nairobi and Accra, and those nice villas and apartments on Victoria Island.

They could make today's African cities even more orderly: My Six-point Plan:

1) Make a law that only people with secondary school educations and up (and their children) can live in the cities. Others can live in townships outside the city or they can go back to the bush.

2) If undereducated people are needed to work in the cities as janitors, maids, etc. they will receive passes and be subject to a permanent curfew.

3) Have the police stop people at will if they look like they don't belong. If someone is dressed in unclean clothes, have the police check their documents.

4) No illegal structures and no street hawking. Any illegal structure should be demolished the day its built, no warning. Any street hawker should have his/her wares confiscated by the police and destroyed.

5) No begging. Beggars should be picked up by the police and dropped in the bush, at least 100 miles from any cities. To discourage their return, all their cash should be taken by the police.

6) To help enforce these rules, walls should be built around all major cities. Essentially, African countries could become countries of cities where the educated middle-class and the wealthy live. The countryside would be left to the poor, to wallow in their own filth. If urban employers need their labor, they can go out to the countryside and give workers passes into the city (with curfews).

These steps will also have to be taken in rural areas of economic importance: mining sites, oil drilling sites, dams, etc.

***I am not actually recommending all the steps here. But some of this is similar to what the imperialists did in Africa. Africans could do this today if they had the will to do so. But this would be a huge sacrifice of human rights for the sake of 'order.' Then again, China has some strict controls on where people can live, so maybe there's a happy median between order and freedom (not that China has that happy median.)***

Matthias Offodile

August 18th, 2008, 11:03 PM

If you look at the upper middle-class and wealthy neighborhoods Africans live in in cities like Nairobi, Accra, and even Lagos, they do look ordered and clean and structured. And those are the areas that are analogous to the whites-only areas of the colonial area. Look at all the nice suburbs of Nairobi and Accra, and those nice villas and apartments on Victoria Island.

"whites only areas", they didn´t exist, in Maputo film shown on ARTE TV lately there were also whites in poorer areas and blacks in richer areas. on old video I have seen it too!

They could make today's African cities even more orderly: My Six-point Plan:

1) Make a law that only people with secondary school educations and up (and their children) can live in the cities. Others can live in townships outside the city or they can go back to the bush.

This is not feasible!:ohno:

2) If undereducated people are needed to work in the cities as janitors, maids, etc. they will receive passes and be subject to a permanent curfew.

Jesus no!!!

3) Have the police stop people at will if they look like they don't belong. If someone is dressed in unclean clothes, have the police check their documents.

Gosh, this sounds harsher than Singapore and incompatible with democracy and people are all dressed very well in Africa even in poor areas! it is not like Europe or America!

4) No illegal structures and no street hawking. Any illegal structure should be demolished the day its built, no warning. Any street hawker should have his/her wares confiscated by the police and destroyed.

I do agree.

5) No begging. Beggars should be picked up by the police and dropped in the bush, at least 100 miles from any cities. To discourage their return, all their cash should be taken by the police.

No this is not a way forward.

6) To help enforce these rules, walls should be built around all major cities. Essentially, African countries could become countries of cities where the educated middle-class and the wealthy live. The countryside would be left to the poor, to wallow in their own filth. If urban employers need their labor, they can go out to the countryside and give workers passes into the city (with curfews).

No no and no!!:ohno:

***I am not actually recommending all the steps here. But some of this is similar to what the imperialists did in Africa. Africans could do this today if they had the will to do so. But this would be a huge sacrifice of human rights for the sake of 'order.' Then again, China has some strict controls on where people can live, so maybe there's a happy median between order and freedom (not that China has that happy median.)***

This kind or urban policy was not even practised by the colonialist.:ohno: Your suggestions sound horrible!

This is not the right way to bring back law and order into our cities. I am sorry , carver02! Were you poking fun? I consider your commenst pure irony!:)

Matthias Offodile

August 19th, 2008, 12:11 AM

Popa1980, as for the Ivory Coast, this country will get back on its feet rapidly!

There is so much ongoing already in the background and despite its crisis it attracted more investment than some of Africa´s stable countries.

It just needs a fair election (for which I hope so much) and the country is set for good times! I know it lost ten years of development but it will get back!

Alex Roney

August 19th, 2008, 03:57 AM

Carver no offense but some of your ideas to make cities clean and orderly are plain tyrannical, impossible and just a bit discriminatory. Poor people needing a "pass" to get into the city? Stalin gave his people more personal freedoms than you would. :lol:

Kwame

August 19th, 2008, 04:10 AM

The Proposed "Six Point Plan"are you proposing a new form of apartheid???

Carver02

August 19th, 2008, 06:35 AM

Matthias, Alex, and Crash2010: I was just "throwing that out there." I don't think those ideas would be politically acceptable and, like I said, a violation of human rights. I was curious to see if anyone would agree.

and people are all dressed very well in Africa even in poor areas!Well, not everybody. lol. You certainly run into body odor and unwashed clothes now and then.

Kwame

August 19th, 2008, 09:21 AM

it's alright, even the best of us get a little out there.......... :crazy2:

popa1980

August 19th, 2008, 11:16 AM

Matt, you really are looking through rose-tinted glasses at Portuguese colonialism. The fact is, these people treated the "natives" worse than the British and the French. Only Leopolds Congo Free State had such poorly educated indigenous people. Matt, it is a WELL KNOWN FACT that Maputo was OFFICIALLY divided into two areas (as was Luanda)- one for whites and Asians, the others for blacks. Blacks needed a card to be in the white area late at night, they were prevented from buying properties in the European zone, they couldnt even OWN their own business!!!- In contrast, Before Nkrumah came into power and nationalised the cocoa industry, my grandfather was a millionaire businessman in British Gold Coast! For you to try and deny that this apartheid took place is like me trying to say that discrimination did not occur in 80s SA. Its prepoisterous! Did you not read the post I put up? Are you saying that these people are lying?

"When I was in school I was a naughty boy but I studied hard and I passed my exams. We were very poor and I started work at 17...When the Portuguese controlled Mozambique there was discrimination like apartheid (racial discrimination) in South Africa. In my town if you went to the post office or bank there were two lines, one for whites and one for blacks. And there was a separate section of the bus that blacks had to sit in."

""Any observer can attest the most flagrant and classic type of discrimination in Mozambique. Hospitals have black and white wards; restaurants have notices stating: „Admission Reserved“; the hotels employ an all-white staff; in buses and trains, in parks and gardens, all over there is strict discrimination. A bus-ride in Lourenco Marques costs the quarter of an African daily wage. Pricelevels seal Africans off from white commercial, social and entertainment centres. Specially designed rents impose separate white and African townships. In Lourenco Marques, just like in Cape Town or Johannesburg, there is a permanent curfew for Africans after nine o’clock in the evening. The African is forced to carry a pass - a „cadernato“ - in order that he can be controlled and efficiently enslaved. One sees the whole Apartheid and Baasskap policy of the Herrenvolk of South Africa here at work"."

120 blacks in post-elementary education in Mozambique in 1954!!!!!! I repat, 120 blacks!Or do you believe the stats only when they suit you?

Matt, my paternal greatgrandfather was a chief, and hence his children were given priority for school. But my maternal grandmother came from a poor rural family and was educated to middle school standard at least. And Ghanaians were still better off than Ivory Coast AND Senegal at independence. Yes, if you were an assimilated black person- who had their culture successfully erradicated- then the French would treat you almost as good as a white French person- thank you massa- its no lie, the French policy of assmilation was very succesful in creating this "wannabe" French- croissant-munching, champagne-drinking middle-class- Gabon is the prime example- why do these people import expensive food from France when they could procure it from Ghana or South Africa or Nigeria?! (Btw Matt, you know some strange people- I dont know any rich Ghanaians or Nigerians who hang in polo clubs, the ones I do know happily roll up their sleeves, wash their hands and eat fufu)

Barragon

August 19th, 2008, 01:23 PM

:blahblah:

Die Kapenaar

August 19th, 2008, 08:49 PM

They were not, really! The reason why they fled was due to the war, the first president of Mozambique pleaded the Whites to stay. Moreover, there were also many and I say many black Angolan that fled too. I am not talking of the war refugees but there were many that left due to war together with the whites.

Zimabwe and SA had no wars! That´s a huuuuuge difference! Just imagine what SA would look like today when their independence was not as smooth as planned by Mandela, it would have made the independent period of the former Belgian Congo look like a cheery kinderplay play, really I am not kiding. Just be honest to yourself and ask how SA would look like today when a Mobutu style leader had taken over?

Anyway, out of interest some time ago, I looked for numbers and between 100 000-120 000 whites in Angola remained...and the majority of those that fled didn´t leave for Portugal or only for short period many fled to Brazil (and they still define themselves as "Angolans", I have read countless skyblog and seen and read a lot about these two countries (and Angola in particular, I am also fully aware about the bad sides of Portuguese colonialism in Angola) the past two years about Angola)..there is also a relatively strong Portuguese-speaking community in SA today and guess where they come from?

The Portuguese fled Mozambique and Angola at independence because the new Marxist governments had expropriated their properties and businesses in order to create post-colonial socialist societies which subsequently degenerated into civil conflicts. While Samora Machel did plead with the whites to stay he did so while his party Frelimo on the ground were organizing gangs to invade the Portuguese people's houses and businesses even though Machel said that only second homes and vacation villas would be confiscated. By December 1975, five months after independence, Machel decreed the wholesale nationalisation of private property in Moç and by 1977, the same year Soviet Premier Leonid Brezhnev visited Machel on a state visit to give him aid, Machel then proceeded to nationalise banks and insurance companies. The economic collapse that followed was predictable. What happened in Moç at independence was like what happened in Zimbabwe in 2000 when Mugabe unleashed the so-called war vets on the commercial farmers. By 1980 there were only 20,000 Portuguese left in Mozambique.

When Agostinho Neto took over in Angola he had pushed socialism even faster than Machel but unlike Machel he did not apologize for it's mistakes. There were only 15,000 Portuguese left in Angola in early 1976 when everything was nationalised wholesale and the infrastructure quickly collapsed with both power blackouts and water shortages.

Matthias Offodile

August 19th, 2008, 09:39 PM

Oh popa1980, I´ve given you the article but you still stick to your the British were heaven and the rest was trash!

please if you have time watch the film "white mischief", promise me that!

I think that we can´t reach a point of convergence.:)

Matt, my paternal greatgrandfather was a chief, and hence his children were given priority for school. But my maternal grandmother came from a poor rural family and was educated to middle school standard at least. And Ghanaians were still better off than Ivory Coast AND Senegal at independence. Yes, if you were an assimilated black person- who had their culture successfully erradicated- then the French would treat you almost as good as a white French person- thank you massa- its no lie, the French policy of assmilation was very succesful in creating this "wannabe" French- croissant-munching, champagne-drinking middle-class- Gabon is the prime example- why do these people import expensive food from France when they could procure it from Ghana or South Africa or Nigeria?! (Btw Matt, you know some strange people- I dont know any rich Ghanaians or Nigerians who hang in polo clubs, the ones I do know happily roll up their sleeves, wash their hands and eat fufu)

So many clichés:hahaha::)

There are rich nigerians who do that, beleive me!:)

As for Gabon are you aware that Gabon was the only French former colony that refused independence, you don´t believe it! They wanted to join France as an oversea department like the french West Indies or French Polynesia!! Their status was unlear for a time until independence was RELUNCATNTYL proclaimed.

But Gabon doesn´t know the word racial tension. Go to gabonese website and you will find French people discussing normally wih Gabonese people and there are so many interacial marriages (and you can´t say that they are forced..we are no longer in colonialism, it is free will)

Gabon Keeps Strong Links With France

By JAMES BROOKE, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: April 23, 1988

In the late 1950's, as the winds of independence swept across Africa, Gabon was the only one of 14 French colonies in Africa to vote to join France as a department or territory.

Rebuffed in this bid for statehood, Gabon's leader, Leon M'Ba, prepared a national flag bearing a small French tricolor in an effort to retain a symbolic bond with France. When Paris rejected even this, the Gabonese very reluctantly joined the line for full independence in 1960.

Today, strong ties with France have evolved and thrived through almost three decades of independence. Every day but Sunday, an airliner from Paris, Nice or Marseilles arrives at Libreville's airport. Into the bargain, Air Gabon has daily flights between Paris, Marseille and Libreville. Strolling through the terminal, which is undergoing a multimillion-dollar, French-financed renovation, a visitor will find that the kiosk offers daily newspapers from half a dozen French regional capitals.

Jumping in a taxi - the fare is payable in francs - a visitor has the choice between speeding down the new, French-built Autoroute A1 or cruising down Boulevard General de Gaulle, a palm-lined beach drive.

Boulevard de Gaulle runs past Camp de Gaulle, home to a permanent detachment of 1200 French marines. In addition to this garrison, France gives Gabon $10 million in military aid a year - 410 French army officers and 250 police officers help staff the Gabonese army and police, free training in France for 300 Gabonese soldiers and 850 policemen each year and, twice a year, joint army maneuvers.

President M'Ba died in 1967 and was replaced by Gabon's current ruler, Omar Bongo, a native of Gabon's third-largest city, Franceville.

Heading toward the city's Petit Paris neighborhood, a visitor passes a showpiece of this city 50 miles north of the Equator - Hypermarket M'Bolo, the largest supermarket in Africa.

With 52 checkout counters, M'Bolo caters heavily to French tastes - 32 feet of display cases for champagnes, 50 feet for cheeses and 120 feet for wines.

While most shoppers on a recent morning were Gabonese, there was a heavy sprinkling of Europeans. Indeed, the French population has risen from 7,000 at independence to 28,000 today, most of whom turned out to be settlers. The country´s local population is just 800 000.

The attraction for foreigners is Gabon's bounteous oil supply, which gives it the highest per capita income in subsaharan Africa, $5,900 in 1987.

Last year, French aid to Gabon amounted to $460 million. This included subsidizing a half of Gabon's budget, extending very low-interest trade loans, paying the salaries of 570 French advisers and 1350 French teachers and paying scholarships for most of the roughly 1 800 Gabonese who study in France every year.

According to Le Canard Enchaine, a French opposition weekly, $1.6 million of this aid also went for the interior decoration of a jet belonging to President Bongo.

Although half of Gabon's imports still come from France, President Bongo has sought in recent years to diversify his nation's relations.

In the 1960's and through much of the 1970's, many Africans assailed France's lingering presence in a nation like Gabon as neo-colonialism. Britain was applauded for making a clean break with its colonialist past.

But African public opinion appears to have shifted in the 1980's.

In January, when Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher visited Kenya and Nigeria, articles in Africa's English-language press noted pointedly that it was her first visit to Africa in nine years. President Francois Mitterrand makes annual visits to Africa.

The article as you can see was wriiten in 1988 by New York Times. So things are no longer as true as they are depicted in the article

As for these champagne drinking clichés they are no longer reality!:ohno: But they were both true for the 70´s in Ivory Coast and for the 80´s in Gabon. You should follow the news of Gabon they are relaunching agriculture, tehy are doing it with foreign and local expertise, in gabon you have a well educated class in the meantime!

But in order to relaunch mass agriculture you need to open your borders and import labour and the opposition in Gabon is currently accsuing Bongo of being to lenient, the opposition (Pierre Mamboundou) wants tough immigration laws!

Look at Ivory Coast, you can say a lot of the country but the former president managed to build up a lot of agriculture and agro-business.

Former French countries had a soft landing when I am talking of former French countries, I am just and only refering to the three key countries: Senegal, Ivory Coast and Gabon. (I don´t consider Cameroon as formerly French)

The rest were not so closely related to France.

And after the election is over (and maybe a new good president) will enter you will see that Côte d´ivoire will reach old heights again:cheers:

Just imagine a West Africa with a strong Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Ghana and Senegal! My dream would come true!:cheers::banana:

PS: Whether you go to Tunisia, Marocco, Senegal, Madagascar etc. you will still see that "France is still there somehow" ...and today there are more African and Magreb writers winning French book prizes than it is the case for French people themselves. Times have shifted ....the Empire "strikes" back (in a positive way).

Matthias Offodile

August 19th, 2008, 09:58 PM

The Portuguese fled Mozambique and Angola at independence because the new Marxist governments had expropriated their properties and businesses in order to create post-colonial socialist societies which subsequently degenerated into civil conflicts. While Samora Machel did plead with the whites to stay he did so while his party Frelimo on the ground were organizing gangs to invade the Portuguese people's houses and businesses even though Machel said that only second homes and vacation villas would be confiscated. By December 1975, five months after independence, Machel decreed the wholesale nationalisation of private property in Moç and by 1977, the same year Soviet Premier Leonid Brezhnev visited Machel on a state visit to give him aid, Machel then proceeded to nationalise banks and insurance companies. The economic collapse that followed was predictable. What happened in Moç at independence was like what happened in Zimbabwe in 2000 when Mugabe unleashed the so-called war vets on the commercial farmers. By 1980 there were only 20,000 Portuguese left in Mozambique.

When Agostinho Neto took over in Angola he had pushed socialism even faster than Machel but unlike Machel he did not apologize for it's mistakes. There were only 15,000 Portuguese left in Angola in early 1976 when everything was nationalised wholesale and the infrastructure quickly collapsed with both power blackouts and water shortages.

woow, you know a lot, where did you get your knowledge from?

Here some very intersting stuff, it suits into our debate in this thread.

In the whole world there are easily more than one hundred million people with recognizable Portuguese ancestors, due to the colonial expansion and world-wide immigration of Portuguese from the 16th century onwards to India, the Americas, Macau and East-Timor, Malaysia, Indonesia and Africa. Between 1886 and 1966, Portugal lost to emigration more than any West European country except Ireland. From the middle of the 19th century to the late 1950s, nearly two million Portuguese left Europe to live in Brazil and the United States. About 35 million Brazilians have relatively recent Portuguese background, due to massive immigration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Significant verified Portuguese minorities exist in(see table)

In the United States, there are Portuguese communities in New Jersey, the New England states, and California. In the Pacific, Hawaii has a sizable Portuguese element that goes back 150 years (see Portuguese Americans and Luso Americans). Canada, particularly Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia, has developed a significant Portuguese community since 1940 (see Portuguese Canadians). Argentina and Uruguay had Portuguese immigration in the early 20th century. Portuguese fishermen dispersed across the Caribbean islands, especially Bermuda and the island of Barbados where there is high influence from the Portuguese community.

In the late 19th and early 20th century the Portuguese government encouraged European emigration to Angola and Mozambique, and by the 1970s there were up to 1 million Portuguese settlers living in their overseas African provinces. An estimated 800,000 Portuguese returned to Portugal as the country's African possessions gained independence in 1975, while others moved to Brazil and south to South Africa.

As a result of interracial marriage and cultural influence, there are Portuguese influenced people with their own culture and Portuguese based dialects in parts of the world other than former Portuguese colonies, most notably in Malaysia and Singapore (see Kristang people), Barbados, Aruba, Curaçao, Trinidad and Tobago, Guyana (see Portuguese immigrants in Guyana), Equatorial Guinea and Sri Lanka (see Burgher people and Portuguese Burghers).

That is what wikipedia has to say about Portuguese people or decendants of Portuguese today, the latest figures that I could find

Minorities of Portuguese descent today
Country Total

Total 5,485,373

Europe 1,386,292
France 798,837
Germany 170,000
Switzerland 152,826
United Kingdom 80,000
Spain 126,651
Luxembourg 54,490
Belgium 38,000
Rest of Europe 28,422

Americas 3,281,853
United States 1,442,077
Brazil 1,200,000
Venezuela 550,000
Canada 415,000
Bermuda 2,400
Rest of the Americas 24,776

Africa 731,228

South Africa 300,000
Angola 367,908
Mozambique 54,355
Rest of Africa 8,965

Oceania 56,000

The current 300 000 "Portuguese" settlers in SA are certainly those that fled the war in Angola and Mozambique

Matthias Offodile

August 20th, 2008, 12:10 AM

For general interest: Another historical document concerning the decolonisation period of Mozambique

May 27, 1975

Robin Wright
Story in .rtf

Portugal was the first colonial power in Africa, dating back almost 500 years. With the independence of its three African colonies — Guinea-Bissau, Mozambique and Angola — this year it will be the last major colonial power to leave. But the break does not end all ties, for not all the Portuguese have yet left.

In Mozambique, for example, the Portuguese are not typical settlers. While most African countries were "settled" by whites in the early 1900s, the whites in this massive southeast African country go back many generations. Most consider themselves Mozambicans.

But even as Mozambicans they have many questions about life under the new Frelimo (Front for the Liberation of Mozambique) government. The fears and hopes are strong since the full implications of independence will be unknown for the first year — or years.

Robin Wright has spent three months in Mozambique writing about the dismantling of the Portuguese empire. Wright's investigation has included an examination of the Portuguese community and what follows is an assessment of their feelings about their future in Mozambique.

Rita moaned, "What am I supposed to do? I want to stay in Mozambique. My family, my home, my work are here. But I am afraid. I don't know of what specifically. I guess the possibilities."

"I am afraid there will be many cases of reverse racism, no matter what the government says. I know the intentions are good. I believe Frelimo supports multi-racialism, or non-racialism, as they say. But the masses don't see it that way yet."

"To them independence means recognition for those who were oppressed. In other words, the blacks. I don't blame them. I'd be the same way if I were in their position. But I'm not. What would you do?"

That is a question many Portuguese are trying to answer as the Portuguese government officially ends 500 years of colonial domination with the independence of Mozambique on June 25.

At least one-half the white population has already chosen to find new homes elsewhere, mainly in Portugal, South Africa and Brazil. According to the Portuguese High Commission, at least 103,000 have fled from Mozambique since January, 1973, leaving anywhere from 70,OOO to 100,000 in this southeast African country of nine million. Illegal emigration and "vacationing" whites have made exact figures impossible to obtain.

Of the 103,000, about 30,000 left in 1973 as the ten-year war between Frelimo guerrillas and Portuguese troops spread further south. Between January, 1974 and the military takeover in Lisbon on April 25 another 20,000 left.

The main exodus came after September, 1974 when two white-initiated incidents frightened the remaining white community. In September, white extremists seized a Lourenco Marques radio station in an abortive bid to prevent Frelimo from coming to power. White mobs roamed the town and many Africans were killed.

In October, Portuguese soldiers picked a fight with Frelimo guerrillas in the main district of the capital city, sparking a gun battle that led to the deaths of an estimated 47 whites. Fearing a backlash, at least 52,000 have since left.

Although things have been peaceful since then and few now anticipate trouble at independence or immediately afterwards, many are still afraid.

The new government has long maintained that Mozambique will be a multi-racial state. As Prime Minister Joaquim Chissano said recently:

"It is not color that exploits and oppresses people, it is a system. Color alone does not divide. It is ideas, not color, that count, and anyone who has the right ideas, who wants to work, is welcome to stay."

"Frelimo fought to establish equality, so we will not refuse equality to those who refused it to us. We need everyone for the work ahead of us."

But words are not enough to soothe the fears of many of the whites remaining in Mozambique. As a Lourenco Marques businessman explained:

"The Portuguese said they would never leave us too. But they sold us out last September (when the agreement to give Mozambique independence was signed) without any warning. Overnight everything changed. Who says it won't happen again?

"They (the new government) need us now. But what about when (black) people are trained for our positions? Look at every other African country. Ghana, Nigeria, Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda — they all promised multi-racial societies. But how often do you see whites in governments there? And Africanization programs have led to nationalization of companies all Over the continent. What kind of future do I have here?"

Many of the whites, especially the younger generations, feel they definitely will play a crucial part in the years ahead and intend to stay. "What do we have to fear — equality?" queried Cesar, a young steward for Deta, Mozambique's airline. Few have yet joined Frelimo's "dynamization" programs, the cells formed to "mentalize" the people to Frelimo policies, but they say they support them in theory.

"Things will change, sure, but many of the changes are probably overdue. We never did anything to help the poor because we did not have to. No one really forcefully encouraged it, so we did nothing," Cesar explained.

"I'm just as scared as anyone of losing the material advantages I've had. But in my conscience I cannot fight it."

The fear has so far been mainly expressed by the older generations. "Most of my friends plan to stay," the steward said. "It's our parents who talk about leaving. They were comfortable under the Portuguese, whether they liked the government or not."

Rita's reaction explains much of the dilemma: "No, I don't think there will ever be any overt action against us. It's the by-products of 'the revolution' that worry me."

"My children, for example, they won't have the quality education any more, partly because many of the trained teachers have leftl.

"Already the subjects have changed from world history to Frelimo’s history — the war, writings of their leaders, and the independence agreement. That's fine to learn more about Mozambique, but Mozambique and Frelimo are not all there is to the world.

"And when they finish school, what will job prospects be? Will they have equal opportunities? Or will the government and businesses want to put in as many of those who were formerly oppressed, the blacks, as possible? I don't have the answers to those questions. It's not my life I must think about, it's theirs too," explained the middle-aged mother of four.

Some charge that the "subtle harassment" has already started. Antonio, a self-employed filmmaker told of one such incident:

"This morning I was rudely awakened by a Frelimo soldier. He told me he had a watch but no band and wanted 100 escudos ($4) to buy a band.

"Now, I thought, I could easily call the authorities and he would be punished as Frelimo tends to take a stiff line about such activities. But I also know that after independence, after June 25, that fellow would remember me and my house if he didn't get what he wanted. And then what? I'm a coward. I don't want trouble. I don't want them to think I'm against the new government. I want to stay here in peace. So I gave him 20 escudos (80 cents) and he left."

The concerns expressed by Rita and the businessman are generally the two main questions most of the white community asks:

Short term, how will the masses react to independence? Blacks and whites acknowledge that Frelimo's politicalization programs (sometimes called orientation, sometimes called indoctrination) may not be sufficiently widespread during the first year — or years — to insure the masses will understand the new government's emphasis on multiracialism.

"Nine months (the transition period) is not very long when you have to reach nine million people," a young Frelimo official conceded.

"And who says a politicalization program can prevent a reaction to a system that has lasted a lifetime?" worried a white high school teacher. "For example, as part of the united society campaign, Frelimo talks about the need to eliminate myths and superstitions that were the basis of tribal life. But these people do not recognize the creeds of their lives as ‘superstition’ or 'myth.'

"Besides, you do not just say 'no longer believe in these things' and expect them immediately to accept whole new system. What if you said to Christians 'no longer believe in Christ or his teachings.' Hah. It does not work that way.

"You have to give them some alternative. Unfortunately, what is taught is often too abstract for many of them. All this philosophy is not tangible yet."

Long term, will the small one percent white population slowly be phased out of their jobs, homes and other material advantages they have traditionally held has been the case in many African countries?

The new government has tried to alleviate these concerns through specific actions as well as strong declarations. Recently Frelimo agreed to allow many whites in key government and business positions to deposit 25 percent of their incomes in foreign banks as an incentive to stay. And already several sources both inside and outside the government estimate that 15 percent of the new faces in government are white.

The government has also quietly welcomed back the estimated 250 white Mozambican exiles who have returned from Portugal, Brazil, South Africa, Rhodesia and other European countries. Many more are expected after independence.

Both government and Portuguese sources agree that there is greater hope for an integrated society in Mozambique because of the long history of Portuguese presence. The Portuguese represent an unusual case of colonialism in Africa. In the majority of countries, the settler communities date back only to the early 1900s, since most of the continent was divided up by European powers after 1850.

But the Portuguese presence dates back almost 500 years, to Vasco da Gama's ‘discoVery’ of the area in 1498. Lourenco Marques brought the first whites to the southeast African country in 1544. Most white Mozambicans are at least fourth generation; many go back farther than current residents can trace. They often have no formal or familial ties with Portugal beyond the language.

In fact, some whites contend that being born in Mozambique made them "second-class Portuguese. One young white engineer explained:

"Many of us are just as happy to get rid of the Portuguese government and their people. They always acted superior, mixing only among themselves, as if being born here made us less important, as if we had less potential than those from Lisbon. Now I can be proud of my place of birth."

The current feeling among most Portuguese and foreign observers is that the mass exodus has ended. "Those who wanted to leave are gone. The rest will probably stay," a foreign diplomat suggested.

For many the decision to remain appears to be voluntary. Others say it would now be difficult to depart even if they wanted to.

"Our money is worthless elsewhere. One million escudos would not buy a bandaid outside Mozambique," a white hotel manager said. "And visas are now very difficult to obtain, except to Portugal."

South Africa, one of the main alternatives, drastically cut back on visas in the months just before independence. Although the white-minority government backed the Portuguese during the war, it now wants to establish good relations with Frelimo because of the strong economic ties with Mozambique, involving railways, ports, mineworkers and hydroelectric power sources. Indirectly offering a refuge for potential refugees is not a way to stabilize the situation in its neighboring nation.

But equally important is the question of where to move. "I don't know where I'd go if I had to," an architect commented. "Portugal has its own problems. And I probably couldn't find employment there. Going to Angola is asking for trouble. And in South Africa or Rhodesia there is a language barrier. Besides, there may be trouble in both places eventually."

Received in New York on May 27, 1975.

©1975 Robin Wright

Robin Wright is an Alicia Patterson Foundation award winner on leave from The Christian Science Monitor. This article may be published with credit to Robin Wright, The Christian Science Monitor, and the Alicia Patterson Foundation.

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001975/Wright/Wright06/Wright01s.jpg

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001975/Wright/Wright06/Wright03s.jpg
"Frelimo Is For The People"
These whites wonder if that includes the Portugese

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001975/Wright/Wright06/Wright04s.jpg
"Frelimo fought to establish equality"
Only the younger generations appear to have few doubts.

popa1980

August 22nd, 2008, 02:40 PM

Matthias Offodile

August 22nd, 2008, 08:02 PM

Matt, you still havent dealt with my main point.

1) are you denying that blacks were prevented from buying property in "European" areas of Maputo. Are you denying the evidence I put up of systematic disrimination against blacks in education, and public places? Are you denying that blacks needed a pass to be in Maputo after 9pm? Are you denying the APPALING record of educating the "natives"- 120 blacks in post-elementary schooling in the WHOLE OF MOZAMBIQUE MATT in 1954. 120! Are you denying that blacks were not allowed to own businesses- what happened when black farmers tried to form cooperatives in Mozambique in the 50s Matt? You are essentially saying that ALL these people who were there and reported all of these discrimination are all lying, and you know better!! Why?.....Croissant?

Where do you know exactly all that from? please give me the scientific links in English by univeristy professors (history and political science, only)! And where did I deny anything? Where, please?:ohno: Is it forbidden to present historic documents and it was you who came up with all the colonial debate, I was just presneting the figures and nothing more at first. :)

Fact is, you were better off being black in Francophone or Anglophone Africa. Only the Congo Free State with 27 blacks educated at university level at independence could match these shocking statistics.

Congo?:ohno: I don´t know exactly but someone posted an article about Congo by 1950´s from an American magazine if I remember well, Congolese at time of independece were among Africa´s richest and most educated people, I will look where that article is..and Congo was no longer called the Free Sate at independence at time iof independece , it was when it was in the hands of that mad king Leopold II! When Congo became a colony a lot of construction began, beginning by the cities...

Congo was ranked among the Africa´s richest countries with industries and all that and so many thousand kilomteres of road, just look at what the country has truned into today! Congo is Africa´s saddest example, normally Congo should be NO.1 in all of Africa by now!

Two weeks ago I saw a report about Congo on TV, a very tragic case!

Matthias Offodile

August 22nd, 2008, 08:16 PM

Some comparision, popa1980! they are just plain figures!:)

GDP per capita

Congo by 1960

#151 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: $221.82 per capita 1960 ... (out of 206 countries)

#147 Congo, Republic of the: $496.96 per capita 1975 ... (out of 206)

the after the zairisation campaign began the economy collapsed

(figure for 1985)

#193 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: $222.44 per capita 1985 ...

now the size of Congo´s economy by 1960 (date of independence)

#31 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: 3,359,404,000 1960 ... (out of 106 countries which were measure then)

#44 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: 4,877,685,000 1970 (out of 129)

#111 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: 7,102,644,000 2005 ... out of 178)

GDP growth > Duration 1980-2000 (most recent) by country

#108 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: -68%

The Congo came out last!! it is very sad considering what the country should be like today. The Congo is the heartbeat of africa and hunger elecriticty everything should be history with a functioning Congo.:yes:

Matthias Offodile

August 22nd, 2008, 08:29 PM

Popa1980, This was posted by one of our Congolese members in an older thread about Zimbabwe, I found it again

Zairisation of the 70´s policy ushered in the economic collapse of Congo

In practical terms, Zairianization represented a financial windfall for the country's political elite, which was to be allocated businesses, and which brushed aside any economic risks involved in such a takeover. On the level of rhetoric, on the other hand, Mobutu spoke of Zairianization as promoting radical economic nationalism, and in helping the lot of the country's masses. Zairianization was to promote rural development by creating a landed gentry to induce greater investment in the countryside. Thus, the ruling elite transformed a mythology of state autonomy and economic sovereignty into a tool for its own enrichment.

Ultimately, Zairianization resulted in asset stripping, liquidation of inventory, and capital flight. In some instances, single enterprises were allocated to more than one individual. Integrated agro-industrial enterprises were broken up. Many of the new owners had neither the expertise nor the interest to manage and to maintain their newly acquired holdings. Many were unable to obtain credit and had no commercial experience. Their first impulse was frequently to dispose of liquid assets as quickly as possible and then to abandon the properties and enterprises to ruin. Throughout 1974 this lack of interest and expertise led to a devastating dislocation of the commercial infrastructure. The adverse effects were especially evident in small businesses where the new owners often simply sold the goods and then left. Shortages of food and consumer goods became common countrywide.

The final blow to Mobutu's development strategy was the collapse in the price of copper in 1974. The price paid for copper in world markets dropped from US$0.64 per kilogram to US$0.24 per kilogram between 1974 and 1975. Zaire's trade balance deteriorated further when its bill for imported oil reached US$200 million, or 20 percent of its foreign-exchange earnings. The continued sharp fall in commodity prices brought export receipts and government revenues down with a crash and produced a decline in the overall standard of living.

After only twelve months, Zairianization was acknowledged to be a failure, and enterprises that had been given to Zairians were nationalized. The economy continued to slide, however, and in December 1974, under a plan called retrocession (see Glossary), former owners were invited to return to Zaire and reclaim a proportion of their businesses. In practice, the requirement that Zairians retain a sizable stake in such businesses was largely ignored for those "expatriates" who did return

Sounds that Zimbabwe was well alive and kicking in the mid 70´s in Zaire.
Why can´t Africa learn out of the historic failures?

Of course, nationalization is good and fully legitimate but it has to be WELL PLANNED AND NOT ABRUPT and not just be sused as a tool to enrich a corrupt elite!! Really this is frustrating!

Die Kapenaar

August 22nd, 2008, 09:22 PM

woow, you know a lot, where did you get your knowledge from?

Here some very intersting stuff, it suits into our debate in this thread.
That is what wikipedia has to say about Portuguese people or decendants of Portuguese today, the latest figures that I could find

Minorities of Portuguese descent today
Country Total

Total 5,485,373

Europe 1,386,292
France 798,837
Germany 170,000
Switzerland 152,826
United Kingdom 80,000
Spain 126,651
Luxembourg 54,490
Belgium 38,000
Rest of Europe 28,422

Americas 3,281,853
United States 1,442,077
Brazil 1,200,000
Venezuela 550,000
Canada 415,000
Bermuda 2,400
Rest of the Americas 24,776

Africa 731,228

South Africa 300,000
Angola 367,908
Mozambique 54,355
Rest of Africa 8,965

Oceania 56,000

The current 300 000 "Portuguese" settlers in SA are certainly those that fled the war in Angola and Mozambique

I have to question the accuracy of these stats particularly from Africa. It seems they are from the 1975 period.

For one there are not near 300,000 Portuguese in SA even in the height of apartheid, CSS stats showed in 1991 that there were 50,000 Portuguese speaking whites. I think the number for SA was at an all time high of 100,000 in 1980. But when the crisis of sanctions and political strife started in 1985, many of these people had emigrated to Portugal. In addition Portuguese people in SA did not feel at home because of the calvinist Afrikaner way of life clashed with the Portuguese more progressive view on race relations. Since the 1994 transition however there has been a steady exodus of the remaining Portuguese population that has faced hostility from the ANC for leaving their colonies at independence and not contributing to black rule in Angola and Mozambique. And like the rest of SA's whites they have since emigrated to Portugal, UK, USA, and Australia to flee violent crime and BEE. I would put their present day population at about 25,000 and even then as StatsSA would point out in the latest 2001 census, many of these have assimilated into English-speaking life.

Here is what I think is the real picture for Portuguese decended people in Africa:

South Africa - 25,000
Angola - 20,000
Mozambique - 10,000
Rest of Africa - 5,000
Total - 60,000

Matthias Offodile

August 22nd, 2008, 10:08 PM

Here is what I think is the real picture for Portuguese decended people in Africa:

South Africa - 25,000
Angola - 20,000
Mozambique - 10,000
Rest of Africa - 5,000
Total - 60,000

Your stats are from hearsay and you can google for the numbers there are much much higher than what you pointed out. Wikipedia (my source) is a credible source, their sources are realiable and frequently updated!:)

As for the 300 000 Portuguese in SA, they have not returned to Portugal, they would have ended up in poverty there in 1980 as you say, Portugal was a very poor country (today it no longer is). They have become African people!:cheers:

I checked the following webpage: Department of Foreign Affairs in South Africa

History of Relations

Due to the historical and cultural ties between South Africa and Portugal, relations between the two countries have traditionally been close and pragmatic. Portuguese policy towards South Africa is largely determined in EU context.

A further basis of relations is the approximately 300 000 strong Portuguese Community in South Africa.

(...)

http://www.dfa.gov.za/foreign/bilateral/portugal.html

Die Kapenaar

August 22nd, 2008, 11:31 PM

Your stats are from hearsay and you can google for the numbers there are much much higher than what you pointed out. Wikipedia (my source) is a credible source, their sources are realiable and frequently updated!:)

As for the 300 000 Portuguese in SA, they have not returned to Portugal, they would have ended up in poverty there in 1980 as you say, Portugal was a very poor country (today it no longer is). They have become African people!:cheers:

I checked the following webpage: Department of Foreign Affairs in South Africa

But StatsSA's stats will dispprove that in the 2001 census. They show that there is only a few thousand Portuguese speakers in SA while the rest have become part of English-speaking SA. The reason why the Angolan and Mozambican Portuguese have left SA since the 1980s is also because that while Portugal was poorer than SA before 1982, Portugal has far passed up SA with a per capita income today of $25,000 compared to $5,000 in SA. The same applies to the longer standing Madeiran Portuguese who resided in SA way before 1974. They started leaving SA in 1976 even while Portuguese from Angola and Mozambique came in for 10 years before they started going to Portugal and elsewhere. This is the reality. Wikipedia on the other hand does not have any standards as anyone can post on it even like here on SSC. I would beware of Portuguese Embassy or community association sources like PALOP who would naturally overstate or distort figures.

Matthias Offodile

August 22nd, 2008, 11:51 PM

But StatsSA's stats will dispprove that in the 2001 census. They show that there is only a few thousand Portuguese speakers in SA while the rest have become part of English-speaking SA. The reason why the Angolan and Mozambican Portuguese have left SA since the 1980s is also because that while Portugal was poorer than SA before 1982, Portugal has far passed up SA with a per capita income today of $25,000 compared to $5,000 in SA. The same applies to the longer standing Madeiran Portuguese who resided in SA way before 1974. They started leaving SA in 1976 even while Portuguese from Angola and Mozambique came in for 10 years before they started going to Portugal and elsewhere. This is the reality. Wikipedia on the other hand does not have any standards as anyone can post on it even like here on SSC. I would beware of Portuguese Embassy or community association sources like PALOP who would naturally overstate or distort figures.

Well, as long as you cannot present me any concrete numbers (with attached links something which I have done), I stick to the ones that I get ...it is more reliable than hearsay!:) You can google for any numbers concerning Portuguese community in SA and you won´t find the figures that you are stating, so please don´t ask me to provide you all the links!

What about German community in SA? in the several TV reports and press article they said that around 150 000 WELL educated German people emigrated to SA the past couple of years, mainly to Cape town region!

Matthias Offodile

August 22nd, 2008, 11:57 PM

Manager Magazine a very serious press article put the numbers of Germans (newcomers) living in South Africa at 100 000

100.000 Deutsche leben in Südafrika

http://www.manager-magazin.de/magazin/artikel/0,2828,567607-5,00.html

popa1980

August 23rd, 2008, 06:13 PM

Matt, you really are unbelievable. Your level of denial is shocking. Here is an Asian leader in Freelimo telling of the rampant discrimnation and here are you denying it took place! Have you ever even been to Mozambique, never mind in the 60s!!!

Can you provide me with papers from professors showing that black people in Mozambique were educated well? I dont think so.

This is like someone denying that apartheid took place. Quite extaordinary. Im gobsmacked Matt, absoultely gobsmacked.

And Congo, are you kidding?!!! It is well known that they had a handful of educated blacks at independence. And since the Belgians ruled VERY directly, very few blacks had skills to run civil service.

Are you really not Croissant? Its getting a little more than suspect here......

popa1980

August 23rd, 2008, 06:15 PM

Mmmmm....Croissant tried to defend the Belgian colonialism in Congo too...mmmmmm

Matthias Offodile

August 23rd, 2008, 08:13 PM

Mmmmm....Croissant tried to defend the Belgian colonialism in Congo too...mmmmmm

Really that´s so childish, how many people do we have here coming and leaving defending this and that? This guy was not me! I even attacked him for the way he talked...so it doesn´t make sense.

Matt, you really are unbelievable. Your level of denial is shocking. Here is an Asian leader in Freelimo telling of the rampant discrimnation and here are you denying it took place! Have you ever even been to Mozambique, never mind in the 60s!!!

Can you provide me with papers from professors showing that black people in Mozambique were educated well? I dont think so.

This is like someone denying that apartheid took place. Quite extaordinary. Im gobsmacked Matt, absoultely gobsmacked.

And Congo, are you kidding?!!! It is well known that they had a handful of educated blacks at independence. And since the Belgians ruled VERY directly, very few blacks had skills to run civil service.

Are you really not Croissant? Its getting a little more than suspect here.....

Really I am not denying anything..and I asked you to provide me with scientific paper, Frelimo is not scienctific documentation for me. Give me the fact and figures from university professors or historians. so I don´t understand why you throw the ball back to me?

At least I have provided the articles and given the figures and I didn´t start the debate of colonialism but when you entered it, I just felt inclined to give my input, it is an open forum and everybody is allowed to have its opinion and nobody has trangressed any borders.

As for the former Belgian Congo, I am fully aware of deploarable atrocities (haven´t I told you that I had to deal with colonial history in two courses at university , so I am 100% aware of everything even what the Portuguese did in Mozambique)

But when you talk about the Congo you have to distinguish clearly between the atrocities of King Leopold II which was the World´s first genocide and the time Congo officially became a colony at the turn of last century.

Don´t you find it strange and sad that Congo was No.31, the 31 biggest economy by 1960!! Popa1980, this is not praising colonialims (which I am not doing), it is just providing the basic and plain figures! Congo should be No.1 in Africa by now (after 50 years since colonialism ended) and hunger a thing of the past. Congo should be providing electricity to entire Africa, THIS IS THE AFRICA THAT I WANT TO SEE .....Wouldn´t it be nice to have a rich and wealthy Congo?:yes:

Croissant as you say posted an article about the Congo I will look for this thread again. I read it!

But I would be glad to end this debate here and now. There no use talking it over with you in a calm and pragmatic way in this thread. But If you still feel like talking it over, you can send me a PM...I am always happy to talk matters over and exchanging thoughts.

Have a nice day, popa1980!:)

Carver02

August 24th, 2008, 07:33 AM

Matt, you really are unbelievable. Your level of denial is shocking. Here is an Asian leader in Freelimo telling of the rampant discrimnation and here are you denying it took place! Have you ever even been to Mozambique, never mind in the 60s!!! ......

I had a friend in grad school who did research in Mozambique. Some people had arranged for her to stay with a wealthy white family near Maputo. The only problem, the white family hadn't been told she was black. So when she gets there they weren't willing to let her stay, and this is in about 2005! There was a bit of a controversy and I think they eventually let her stay, but this shows you that this crap still goes on.

Matthias, I'm afraid you are very wrong if you think the blacks and whites were happily living together in the Portuguese colonies. Living during that period would have been awful, worse than living through the civil war.

Matthias Offodile

August 24th, 2008, 05:33 PM

I had a friend in grad school who did research in Mozambique. Some people had arranged for her to stay with a wealthy white family near Maputo. The only problem, the white family hadn't been told she was black. So when she gets there they weren't willing to let her stay, and this is in about 2005! There was a bit of a controversy and I think they eventually let her stay, but this shows you that this crap still goes on.

Matthias, I'm afraid you are very wrong if you think the blacks and whites were happily living together in the Portuguese colonies. Living during that period would have been awful, worse than living through the civil war.

Yes, guys the Portuguese were the "bloodiest" colonizers of all, they "only" exploited, raped and murdered and suppressed black people, they "ruined" the countries and didn´t build a single street and no lights, no hospitals they build no schools and educated only two African people in entire Mozambique and Angola...even the worst times of apartheid government in SA was "heaven" on earth compared to what Mozambique was under Portuguese rule and the civil war in Mozambique improved the country incredibly "to the better" , yes we all know that...and yes, they "never" mixed with Africans (anybody with eyes in its haed knows that this is of course "true") and still don´t do which Carver 02´s example "perfectly" demonstrates. Thanks for clarification! In Popa´s family they were more educated people than in entire Angola, Mozambique and Cape Verde combined.

Are you "happy" now:) so for the sake of your Portuguese-hating world , so let it be!:bow:

I think we should end this debate which has not even been started by me. My aim was just to present plain figures and it could have ended in a cosntructive debate which was not the case, unfortunately. Anyway...

Have a nice day!

popa1980

August 24th, 2008, 07:09 PM

Matt, GDP per head (dubious as those figures obviously are from that era) does not tell you about interracial relationship or average standard of living! Look at South Africa!

Carter, that is a shocking story from 2005 in Mozambique. Don't bother with Croissant...I mean Matt, he is intent on living his dream. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

Alex Roney

August 25th, 2008, 02:44 AM

I'm not saying we should generalize all Portuguese colonizers and deem them as inherently evil. But I'd definitely argue that a long with Spanish and the Belgian Congo they were worst of colonizers. The issue for me is that they were very poor administrators, didn't build much infrastructure or solidly lay institutions particularly in the Justice department. Give me the Brits over the Portuguese anyday, heck I'll even take the French.

Filipe Santos

August 25th, 2008, 05:05 PM

Outra estupidez... É o mesmo que dizer que Lisboa é mais rica que Portugal!
Angola e Moçambique eram partes integrais de Portugal, por isso não podiam ser mais ricas que o país em si!

Barragon

August 25th, 2008, 08:02 PM

Não vale a pena Filipe ... Portugal é horrível :lol:

Die Kapenaar

August 25th, 2008, 11:18 PM

All colonizers are equally bad, there is no point talking about it as if there were colonists with different shades of exploitation.

skytrax

August 26th, 2008, 01:51 AM

Outra estupidez... É o mesmo que dizer que Lisboa é mais rica que Portugal!
Angola e Moçambique eram partes integrais de Portugal, por isso não podiam ser mais ricas que o país em si!

Eles não estão dizendo bem isso. Na verdade, é perfeitamente possível dizer por exemplo, que Hong Kong é mais "rica" que a China (em termos GQP per capita), porque no caso é uma região com admistração especial, o que caso que se aplicavam nas colónias da altura.
Eu não vou tomar partido, muito menos pretendo começar mais outra discussão. Mas concordo, no entanto, que os factos aqui mostrados não são necessariamente indicadores de desenvolvimento e/ou riqueza no seu sentido literal.

PedroGabriel

August 26th, 2008, 03:14 AM

I had a friend in grad school who did research in Mozambique. Some people had arranged for her to stay with a wealthy white family near Maputo. The only problem, the white family hadn't been told she was black. So when she gets there they weren't willing to let her stay, and this is in about 2005! There was a bit of a controversy and I think they eventually let her stay, but this shows you that this crap still goes on.

Matthias, I'm afraid you are very wrong if you think the blacks and whites were happily living together in the Portuguese colonies. Living during that period would have been awful, worse than living through the civil war.

:crazy: are you serious or just making American propraganda?

Mozambique was/is a poor land, with serious water shortages, and problems there started as water problems, and there was some problems between whites and blacks because of the water in mozambique, and mozambique already in that time was very influenced by South Africa. If stuf in Mozambique were so bad, why most of the guerrila were from Tanganica and not even Mozambicans? I'll make you a drawing, it was US-leaded. of course there were Mozambicans, but... be serious. Angola and Mozambique suffered more because of US and Russia who wanted to expand their sphere of influence, remember those areas where controlled by Portugal for more than 5 centuries, not 5 days.

Nortenho

August 26th, 2008, 03:39 AM

The portuguese colonies were a mixed bag. In Angola you had cities like Luanda where most of the population was white but in the in the rest of the territory relations were fairly tolerant (take it with a grain of salt, a white men could marry a black women but a black men that looked to a white women could be beaten to death with the connivance of the authorities). Mozambique on the other hand was more far more similar to the South African Apartheid.

Carver02

August 26th, 2008, 05:57 AM

:crazy: are you serious or just making American propraganda?No propaganda, I'm serious.

Mozambique was/is a poor land, with serious water shortages, and problems there started as water problems, and there was some problems between whites and blacks because of the water in mozambique, and mozambique already in that time was very influenced by South Africa. If stuf in Mozambique were so bad, why most of the guerrila were from Tanganica and not even Mozambicans? I'll make you a drawing, it was US-leaded. of course there were Mozambicans, but... be serious. Angola and Mozambique suffered more because of US and Russia who wanted to expand their sphere of influence, remember those areas where controlled by Portugal for more than 5 centuries, not 5 days.Yeah, the superpower interference was a sad story.

popa1980

August 26th, 2008, 03:26 PM

Matt, btw, the post I put up with the statistics is from a journal acrticle from an American political professor who was at UCLA. So theres your evidence. I'll post it again

"by Franz J. T. Lee

Article in

“Review of International Affairs”, Vol. XV, No. 334, Belgrade, March 5, 1964

On education..

"In 1956 out of a total population of 6.000.000 (census figures, although this figure was probably much higher) only 284,000 (including whites) received education. In 1954 there were 183,092 pupils in rudimentary schools, being reserved almost exclusively for Africans. Of these only 3,595 took the final examination (after three years) and of them 2,774 passed. In 1955 there were 212,428 pupils in Catholic rudimentary schools; of these only 2,761 passed to continue their education in the primary schools. In 1954 there were 120 Africans in commercial, industrial and secondary schools in the whole of Mozambique. In the elite Liceu - the preparatory school for university level - there were 5 Africans and 800 (eight hundred) white students; no African has ever completed the whole Liceu course. There is no university in Portuguese Africa. All higher education has to be acquired in Portugal or in other countries. The outcome is that less than 1% of the Africans are officially reckoned to be literate (1950 census). This is an important factor in explaining why political organization and revolutionary work are of such a low level in Mozambique (see later)."

On social....

"Any observer can attest the most flagrant and classic type of discrimination in Mozambique. Hospitals have black and white wards; restaurants have notices stating: „Admission Reserved“; the hotels employ an all-white staff; in buses and trains, in parks and gardens, all over there is strict discrimination. A bus-ride in Lourenco Marques costs the quarter of an African daily wage. Pricelevels seal Africans off from white commercial, social and entertainment centres. Specially designed rents impose separate white and African townships. In Lourenco Marques, just like in Cape Town or Johannesburg, there is a permanent curfew for Africans after nine o’clock in the evening. The African is forced to carry a pass - a „cadernato“ - in order that he can be controlled and efficiently enslaved. One sees the whole Apartheid and Baasskap policy of the Herrenvolk of South Africa here at work".

So there we go...

Die Kapenaar

August 27th, 2008, 07:58 PM

South African manager in hot water

August 26 2008 at 11:07AM

Maputo - The work permit of a South African manager at Mozambique's luxury Pemba Beach Hotel has been withdrawn after she allegedly made racist remarks about her colleagues, the country's labour ministry said on Tuesday.

Claudine Moodley was accused of "racist attitudes" towards and "lack of respect" for her Mozambican colleagues, read a press release.

The matter was brought to the attention of Labour Minister Helena Taipo during a meeting she held with the workers at the hotel, in the northern province of Cabo Delgado, on August 1.

The workers allegedly made veiled threats against Moodley, warning Taipo that they would not take responsibility for whatever might happen to the South African if the authorities did not act.

The workers further said they had run out of their patience because of the "lack of respect and humiliation" they allegedly suffered at Moodley's hands.

The cancellation of Moodley's permit meant she would no longer be able to work in Mozambique.

According to the press release Taipo also discovered that the hotel had exceeded its quota of foreign workers.

Under the quota system only five percent, or 19, of the hotel's 390 workers could be foreigners, but it had 30.

- Sapa

popa1980

August 28th, 2008, 10:52 AM

Not quite sure what this has to do with the thread but the funny thing is that, if SA hadnt created the civil war in Mozambique, maybe there wouldnt be so immigrants from there in SA. Its like British people who complain about immigrants, half of whom are from countries which the British messed up when they were colonial powers- Sudan, Iraq etc

Matthias Offodile

September 1st, 2008, 03:15 PM

Hi to all I am back from holiday!

I need to respond shortly!

Carvers02, if that story of yours is true, it doesn´t make sense to generalize from an individual case to an entire people,:ohno: my mother when she lived in Nigeria was also viciously shouted at in two incidences like "bloody oyibo (which means white in a pejorative sense ) go back to your country!" although she is married to a 100% Nigerian!!..so are all Nigerians racist? No, no and no, because 98% of were generally good experiences she made and people don´t make her feel that she has another skin colour.

Racism exists everywhere (in some cases it is over and in some it is subtle) and it is not linked to colour.

I'm not saying we should generalize all Portuguese colonizers and deem them as inherently evil. But I'd definitely argue that a long with Spanish and the Belgian Congo they were worst of colonizers. The issue for me is that they were very poor administrators, didn't build much infrastructure or solidly lay institutions particularly in the Justice department. Give me the Brits over the Portuguese anyday, heck I'll even take the French.

Lol, then just compare the material infrastructure of Angola to that of Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Tanzania or British Cameroon at time of independence and your argument looses all of its plausibility!

Just look at what the British left in Oman...a mere 10 km of tarred road!!!!!!

Transport policy in Oman

Hilal A. Al-Ismaily* and Douglas Probert
Department of Applied Energy, Cranfield University, Bedfordshire, MK43 0AL, UK

Available online 11 January 1999.

Purchase the full-text article

References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

Abstract

In 1970, only 10 km of asphalt road and neither a modern airport nor a major seaport existed in Oman. However, by 1996, there were more than 6500 km of asphalt roads, two major seaports and two international airports. The number of motorised vehicles had grown from almost zero in 1970 to nearly 360,000 in 1997. In that year, the total number of private cars reached 200,000 with a population of only 2 million, so leading to a car density of one car for every 10 inhabitants. (...)

*Corresponding author.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V1T-3VHW3JY-D&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5f77d332b8c56508772d0a54524209b6

take the former Belgian Congo which had thousands of kilometres of tarred road more than today!!So review your infrastructure knowledge

Matt, btw, the post I put up with the statistics is from a journal acrticle from an American political professor who was at UCLA. So theres your evidence. I'll post it again

"by Franz J. T. Lee

Article in

“Review of International Affairs”, Vol. XV, No. 334, Belgrade, March 5, 1964

On education..

"In 1956 out of a total population of 6.000.000 (census figures, although this figure was probably much higher) only 284,000 (including whites) received education. In 1954 there were 183,092 pupils in rudimentary schools, being reserved almost exclusively for Africans. Of these only 3,595 took the final examination (after three years) and of them 2,774 passed. In 1955 there were 212,428 pupils in Catholic rudimentary schools; of these only 2,761 passed to continue their education in the primary schools. In 1954 there were 120 Africans in commercial, industrial and secondary schools in the whole of Mozambique. In the elite Liceu - the preparatory school for university level - there were 5 Africans and 800 (eight hundred) white students; no African has ever completed the whole Liceu course. There is no university in Portuguese Africa. All higher education has to be acquired in Portugal or in other countries. The outcome is that less than 1% of the Africans are officially reckoned to be literate (1950 census). This is an important factor in explaining why political organization and revolutionary work are of such a low level in Mozambique (see later)."

On social....

"Any observer can attest the most flagrant and classic type of discrimination in Mozambique. Hospitals have black and white wards; restaurants have notices stating: „Admission Reserved“; the hotels employ an all-white staff; in buses and trains, in parks and gardens, all over there is strict discrimination. A bus-ride in Lourenco Marques costs the quarter of an African daily wage. Pricelevels seal Africans off from white commercial, social and entertainment centres. Specially designed rents impose separate white and African townships. In Lourenco Marques, just like in Cape Town or Johannesburg, there is a permanent curfew for Africans after nine o’clock in the evening. The African is forced to carry a pass - a „cadernato“ - in order that he can be controlled and efficiently enslaved. One sees the whole Apartheid and Baasskap policy of the Herrenvolk of South Africa here at work".

So there we go...

Popa1980, that´s what I asked for , thanks! but who is the author? Belgrade was former communist bloc country, a bloc that helped to destroy Mozambique and Angola in two very senseless wars!

Matt, GDP per head (dubious as those figures obviously are from that era) does not tell you about interracial relationship or average standard of living! Look at South Africa!

Carter, that is a shocking story from 2005 in Mozambique. Don't bother with Croissant...I mean Matt, he is intent on living his dream. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

:blahblah:

And where did I say otherwise? You are filled to the brim with hatred towards Portuguese people, I have noticed...have your forefathers lived under their rule? at the same time you are praising the British to heaven??? it doesn´´ t make sense to me, you have once gone as far as to show to me what great projects the British had for Ghana, Accra. I don´t fully understand...

and your Croissant story just makes me laugh and doesn´t make sense at all. as I said multiple times before Secondly, I am not intent on living on dreams I just presented you the plain facts and you started all the debate about colonilialism. :ohno:

are you serious or just making American propraganda?

Mozambique was/is a poor land, with serious water shortages, and problems there started as water problems, and there was some problems between whites and blacks because of the water in mozambique, and mozambique already in that time was very influenced by South Africa. If stuff in Mozambique were so bad, why most of the guerrila were from Tanganica and not even Mozambicans? I'll make you a drawing, it was US-leaded. of course there were Mozambicans, but... be serious. Angola and Mozambique suffered more because of US and Russia who wanted to expand their sphere of influence, remember those areas where controlled by Portugal for more than 5 centuries, not 5 days.

I would subscribe to what you say! It corresponds to what I know and read about Mozambique, too!

The portuguese colonies were a mixed bag. In Angola you had cities like Luanda where most of the population was white but in the in the rest of the territory relations were fairly tolerant (take it with a grain of salt, a white men could marry a black women but a black men that looked to a white women could be beaten to death with the connivance of the authorities). Mozambique on the other hand was more far more similar to the South African Apartheid.

:yes: agreed except that being beaten to death thing...on the videos and old photos... I saw black and white couples and I looked at maaaany photos the past two years! And they had no machetes or guns placed on their head for loving each other or being friends! (I am refering to Angola in this case)

Eles não estão dizendo bem isso. Na verdade, é perfeitamente possível dizer por exemplo, que Hong Kong é mais "rica" que a China (em termos GQP per capita), porque no caso é uma região com admistração especial, o que caso que se aplicavam nas colónias da altura.
(...)

skytrax, 100% agree to what you said!

Anyway, colonialism is over and it won´t return so we can´t change matters what happened back then...in some cases fifty years ago, let´s look into the future AFRICA STILL HAS A LONG WAY TO TRAVEL and build A PROPSEROUS AFRICA! :cheers:

fernao

September 3rd, 2008, 07:05 PM

all that American propaganda is shameful

here some numbers for you:

- Angola Colonial War:
Independence movement casualties: 50.000

- Angolan Civil War after independence:
> 500.000 soldiers
> 500.000 civilians

- Mocambique Colonial War:
Independence movement casualties: 10.000

- Mocambique Civil War after independence:
casualties: ~1.000.000

Now bring me those fat polititians saying it does not matter that there was a civil war after independence, bla bla bla, that was the "price to pay for Freedom", etc.

Bullsh1t

What happened in Angola and Mocambique, with US, Soviet, Cuban and South African interests is one of the Humanity saddest stories. Millions were tortured, killed or hurt because of money, oil, diamonds, etc... and the filled pockets of a few african politicians and other countries interests. All that Freedom stuff is complete bullsh1t.

Look, i am not saying colonial times were easy for the population, etc. What I am saying is that it is wrong/unproven that:
- Majority of Angolan or Mozambique wanted to be independent at the time of independence
- Independence of the country meant better education, health, etc, for the population
- Exploitation of the people and the country by foreign was reduced
- etc.

This is particularly true for other colonies that were granted independence without even asking for it, due to anti-colonialist pressions that severelly worsened country development, for instance, S. Tome' or Cabo Verde.

Rocha Vieira

September 27th, 2008, 09:55 AM

Supostamente eu deveria responder na língua de Camões, língua oficial de Angola, ás alarvidades aqui escritas , mas como as criaturas que as escreveram fizeram-nas na língua de Shakespeare, aqui vai a minha resposta, na mesma moeda...

The main point of the topic is Angola was part of Portugal until 11th of November 1975 so the title of this topic is ridiculous (Matthias, I quote you high but this time I got disappointed).

The "evil colonial Portuguese Government" was preparing the handover to the natives before a communist revolution. Unfortunately the revolution came too soon and there was not time to do a proper handover (American and Russian got very happy with that).

The civil war started in 15th March of 1961 when UPA (supported by Soviet Army) massacred hundreds of white and black Portuguese-Angolans in Uíge. The horrendous America would appear five years later powering with arms another movement, UNITA. Anyway Portuguese army (more or 7000 soldiers) was more than enough to get them stuck in the juggle. On the Portuguese revolution day the war in Angola was just few guerrilla attacks in the north and east, quite far from the cities. The war in Angola wasn’t a revolution from the oppressed people. The black Portuguese-Angolans were respected and had the exactly same rights of the white Portuguese-Angolans. The war happened because the bloody Americans and Soviets were looking to take the diamonds and the petrol from the control of the Portuguese. They did over 30 years, funding the war and sponsoring the 500,000 of Angolans causalities.

There isn’t one single nation in the world that can point a finger to the Portuguese colonialist empire. If there is someone around with a different opinion I really challenge him to come here and I give me a better example.

Sorry guys I was in Angola until 25th March, and I returned twice before the handover. I saw with my two eyes what really happened and why it happened.

In 70’s Angola was a prosperous country, civilized, and educated. Whites and black had a peaceful life together and the territory was one of the most developed in Africa.

agostinho

September 27th, 2008, 01:57 PM

Rocha Vieira

September 27th, 2008, 03:07 PM

penso que este tópico está levar este tema um pouco longe de mais, principalmente quando não se chega a um acordo, embora nem sempre possa haver acordos em tudo quanto fazemos nesta vida.melhor banir tal assunto.just put an end on this issue, that never brings people to a consensus or understanding.it is going far enough

Este tópico está a seguir o caminho correcto. É preciso repor a verdade para que todos os angolanos, e não só, percebam o porquê de 30 anos de guerra civil.

Matthias Offodile

September 27th, 2008, 08:30 PM

Supostamente eu deveria responder na língua de Camões, língua oficial de Angola, ás alarvidades aqui escritas , mas como as criaturas que as escreveram fizeram-nas na língua de Shakespeare, aqui vai a minha resposta, na mesma moeda...

Sorry, I can´t write in Portuguese that´s why I took English language.

The main point of the topic is Angola was part of Portugal until 11th of November 1975 so the title of this topic is ridiculous (Matthias, I quote you high but this time I got disappointed).

I did NOT go against Portugal...I just drew a conclusion based on statistics, that´s all!:)

The "evil colonial Portuguese Government" was preparing the handover to the natives before a communist revolution. Unfortunately the revolution came too soon and there was not time to do a proper handover (American and Russian got very happy with that).

The civil war started in 15th March of 1961 when UPA (supported by Soviet Army) massacred hundreds of white and black Portuguese-Angolans in Uíge. The horrendous America would appear five years later powering with arms another movement, UNITA. Anyway Portuguese army (more or 7000 soldiers) was more than enough to get them stuck in the juggle. On the Portuguese revolution day the war in Angola was just few guerrilla attacks in the north and east, quite far from the cities. The war in Angola wasn’t a revolution from the oppressed people. The black Portuguese-Angolans were respected and had the exactly same rights of the white Portuguese-Angolans. The war happened because the bloody Americans and Soviets were looking to take the diamonds and the petrol from the control of the Portuguese. They did over 30 years, funding the war and sponsoring the 500,000 of Angolans causalities.

There isn’t one single nation in the world that can point a finger to the Portuguese colonialist empire. If there is someone around with a different opinion I really challenge him to come here and I give me a better example.

Sorry guys I was in Angola until 25th March, and I returned twice before the handover. I saw with my two eyes what really happened and why it happened.

In 70’s Angola was a prosperous country, civilized, and educated. Whites and black had a peaceful life together and the territory was one of the most developed in Africa.

Rocha VieiraWell, I wasn´t even alive when Angola got its independence...but as you have lived there, there must be something right in what you say:yes:...The tons of pictures and videos that I have watched about pre-war Angola show a nice and modern country for its times (hey man, these were the 1960´s and early 70´s..compare Angola to other places at that time).:yes:

Before I was told that the former Portuguese colonies were the worst administered territories...but if you compare photos of Angola with those of other colonizers you will see the difference.

The Brits left 10km of tarred road in entire Oman, this is ridiculous.

Anyway, Angola had a every right to get fully independent like any other country on earth but it suffered by far Africa´s worst decolonisation process...in short, it was a full-blown disaster for the country from which is still hasn´t recovered

......Times of holding colonies were over after Europe was shattered by World II...most countries got independent by 1960´s. (Ghana was the first in 1957 and South Africa the last in 1994, if you can call SA a "colony" at all, in the strict sense of the word).

Major European powers were externally forced (by the USA) and internally compelled (rising costs of holding colonies due to war and internal colonial wars).

The UK made a relative clear cut with its former overseas territories as opposed to France which prepared "their" countries for a softer landing (some countries still have no strong army to speak of today as permanent French military base more or less does the job; their currency is pegged to Euro; fail outs are paid by France and some of the wealthier African countries, ...) This model worked more or less well for almost a generation (1960-1985)
Out of all the fourteeen former French colonies, there was one single country, namely Gabon, that never wanted to get independent...but was forced to become independent...although plans were drawn up to turn Gabon into an French overseas territory prior to 1960 (on par with places like Guyana or New Caledonia or Reúnion Island)

However, former French colonies were showered with a lot of money for about 20-25 years and all kinds of aid and assistance packages but their model of decolonisation failed in the long run, too...just look at what certain promising key countries have turned into today.

The last colonies got dismantled were British Hong Kong and Portuguese Macau...that brought this era which lasted for more than 500 years to an end.

Maybe there will be an independent declaration from some French oversea departments...this won´t be the case for Réunion or French West Indies but maybe for New Caledonia in the next 15 years when a new referendum will be prepared. ...but the cost of full independence is always very high (no social services the same like in France for those territories, no money for social and material infrastructure.....France transfers billions of Euros into its overseas territories EACH year...if this amount dries up...what then?)...People in Reunion or Martinique or Guyane are certainly aware of it...they don´t want to loose their comparatively high standard of living (in some territories it is already like France´s standard of living)

To round it off and come back to Angola, it is sad to know, very sad to see what Angola (although it is undergoing a massive reconstruction today:cheers:) has become due to an absolutely senseless war that was so damaging to its people and infrastructure.:bash: How many times did I ask myself what Angola would be today if there had no war and a relatively smooth independent period.

Luanda would have never turned into a city of 6 million "metropolis" (and if so, it would have been in a more planned way), its development would have been decentralized, it would have been a tourism heaven, it would have had many more universities, good hospitals, highways, shopping malls and entertainment zones, certainly many more high-rises...not all would have been perfect, of course but a lot , really a lot, better than today. Those visions have been dashed. The country is rebuilding and is catching up ...but time has been lost, a lot of time and toooo many lives have been destroyed for absolutely nothing. It is so sad, really! :ohno: