Project and Discussion | Public Transport

[docker]

Ok with the start of a new government and a new moderator, time to makes some changes and move off the old completed projects and start focusing on the new projects and in doing so we get a new thread.

for those wanting to reflect and look back at the old thread here is the link:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=502457

but completed rail projects include;

the SSR
extensions to clarkson
new station at greenwood
redveloped Victoria Park, Currambine, Armadale, Bassendean and Gosnells station
31 new rail sets


and we get to look forward to;

an ellenbrook line
an airport line
extensions to Butler and further to yanchep
extensions to manjimup (armadale line)
extensions up to swan view and perhaps further into the hills
extension of the thornlie spur and perhaps linking up to fremantle
upgrade to kelmscott and east perth train stations


and also on the bus network we have the new gas buses aswell as new CAT buses and routes, and then there is ofcourse the possibilities of an expanded Ferry network and an introduction of Light Rail (http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/cityregionalplanning/15642.asp) back into the system.

And ofcourse the possibility of a high speed train connecting perth to bunbury and further south, and hopefully the further expansion of new routes to other towns to the east and north.

so have fun

[perthgazer]

I don't recall the Liberals matching the $147m Butler rail extension pledge???

**nb just re-read their transport policy document and it is indeed not there as a promise

It only gets a mention as possibility with a $6m 20 years PT study to be completed in THREE years

[docker]

it will probably happen eventually

[OzFrog]

it will probably happen eventually

Note I highlighted those two words for a reason :)

[Auxodium]

...
and we get to look forward to;

an ellenbrook line
an airport line
extensions to Butler and further to yanchep
extensions to manjimup (armadale line)
extensions up to swan view and perhaps further into the hills
extension of the thornlie spur and perhaps linking up to fremantle
upgrade to kelmscott and east perth train stations

...

where did u pull this balloney from?

expect many of these projects to be placed on hold... Manjimup? FFS that was simply talk and nothing more, as well as a line to the hills lol

[chrisaus]

they were all listed in liberal policy documents as part of their 20 year rail strategy............

[perthgazer]

they dont have a rail strategy

they will spend the next three years coming up with one according to their policy document

[PerthSM]

By which stage it'll be election time and Labor will be back in anyway...

[PerthCity]

extensions to manjimup (armadale line)

Surely not Manjimup?

[AndyGM]

I think we can be pretty much assured that there will be no new rail construction in Perth for at least the next four years, maybe eight.

[Bonga]

I think we can be pretty much assured that there will be no new rail construction in Perth for at least the next four years, maybe eight.
I'm quite disappointed that a new rail project did not commence soon after completion of the Mandurah line. The Butler extension would probably have been the best place to start.

I realise that these are major projects, but I believe that rail construction needs to be ongoing, given the current limitations of Perth's network. I'm sure I recall Alannah once saying something similar.

[bird_of_paradox]

Surely not Manjimup?

Mundijong, surely...

[docker]

Mundijong, surely...

i just took a guess, i couldn't be bothered looking up what it was, i was just listing all the serious proposals we have heard about.

[PerthCity]

Mundijong, surely...

I was thinking of what sounded similar, but came up with nothing. :lol:

[bird_of_paradox]

I wonder if, after the Ellenbrook line gets built, they'd then put a line in the Reid Hwy reserve west of Tonkin Hwy, linking with the Joondalup line between Stirling and Warwick? It'd be cheaper than a hills line, and connect up a big swathe of the northern suburbs. (And harvest them votes... elections tend to get decided in the northern suburbs.)

Also, if there's one good thing about a Liberal govt: they're into roads, so in the next four years, they'll probably convert all the intersections on Tonkin and Reid Hwy to bridges (and the Tonkin / Reid one to a dirty great spaghetti junction), thus making it easier for rail to be put in whenever that happens. ;)

I'd expect the Thornlie-Jandakot rail to get built, considering it was Liberal policy back in the 90's and the tunnels for it already exist. Also, maybe a station at Gwelup (between Stirling and Warwick)... that's been talked about for a while, but never happened.

Extension of the Armadale line won't happen in a hurry - that's Labor voting country (McTiernan country, actually), so it doesn't matter for the next four years. :ohno:

[Auxodium]

ellenbrook wasnt promised until AFTER the NEXT election... so therefore it would of been built afterwards...


Ellenbrook would be cheaper and beneficial than a hills line because it would serve at least 100,000 people compared to the hills 10 people and 3 pets...


BOP i believe the Gwelup station has been deleted because where the park and ride should of been is now a hhousing estate

[Homeroids]

Remember Allanah spoke to us about a report for the needs of rail. It will be out in a few months. There is no reason why this report will not be forthcoming, I think. Plus it needs to fit in with the Rudd Governments 20bill fund for infrastructure.

Yes, even the Libs can't just ignore the need for rail but I guess we will see.

[WCG]

Ive never seen the Liberals as being much on excitn developments that the city needs- etc mayb a little Belltower! Sum of the suggestions above by Docker I think are dreams (no offense!) opposed to actual projects that will even be considered, doesnt matter what there propaganda mayb.

[Homeroids]

The prudent thing to do here, is wait. It's easy to pass judgment on a new government, purely based on perception. Let us see what statements do surface over the next few months.

Both parties committed to the Ellenbrook spur line. This probably has a chance. Now, I want to see what the Libs propose for the airport. That one simply can't just go away.

The Northern extension by Carps was there purely to entice the marginal seats for the election just passed. I personally rate it a high need but not as high as say the airport. But anyway, my point is this: I don't think it will be a case of 'nothing' simply because the Libs got in. I live in hope :)

[Ipggi]

Well you can't compare the Liberal's 1990s performance to ALP's economic boom performance. The Liberals in the early 1990's were voted in after a huge economic depression, something that most younger forum members would fail to comprehend. One of their big trials of time was simply to reduce debt and bring WA's credit rating up to AAA. Boring from a SSC fan perspective but something that today is just taken for granted.

I wished people stop using the Belltower as a benchmark for their time in power. Because it was the ALP and the general public who hammered the Liberals into the current design, and mainly due to the factors mentioned previously.

The Liberals did create the Northbridge tunnel which basically allowed the CBD to become pedestrian friendly, as it's role as a critical traffic thoroughfare became redundant. People often seem to forget it's importance and also seem to forget how car orientated the CBD used to be.

Personally I think new lines will not be out of the question from the new government, but the more gimmicky transport infrastructure such as the autotrams and regular trams probably will be?

[Homeroids]

^^ When you said NBLink, did you mean the tunnel? Anyway, in reference to the GFF tunnel, yes, even though another Fwy, I think it has been a raging success. It has diverted a lot of traffic from Riverside Drive. Only now is any form of Waterfront feasible. If they did not do this tunnel, we would of had to have a $400m tunnel for Riverside Drive.

The Libs got a lot of flak over the GFF tunnel when they pushed for it but I think it has been more than vindicated.

And yes, I agree somewhat with Ipggi comments about the Bell Tower. It's a lesson about political interference making something that was potentially grand to something that became a symbol of mediocrity. R Court never wanted it that small. How quickly we forget. Now the pendulum or disease of political opportunism has shifted to the Waterfront project. And, this is a project that probably wont mean public money wasted since it is self funding. Sad sad sad.

[didge73]

To Manjimup? What's there to do in Manjimup? Sometimes I just don't get why they have all these extension plans to places that aren't even significant.

Other than upgrading Kelmscott and East Perth train station, what about Warwick? That bloody station always shakes (vibrates, rather) whenever the bus passes through the crossing...isn't about time someone does something, otherwise some sort of structural failure can actually happen?

[didge73]

edit, Mundijong, I mean. I'm sure there's also nothing to do in Mundijong. =D

[B787-938]

Warwick and Whitfords stations are designed to move like that in order to distribute those loads.

Interesting to see whether we'll see a further order for B-series railcars in the near term or not. They'd be crazy not to get onto that immediately otherwise there will not be a lot of happy campers on PT.

[didge73]

Warwick and Whitfords stations are designed to move like that in order to distribute those loads.

Interesting to see whether we'll see a further order for B-series railcars in the near term or not. They'd be crazy not to get onto that immediately otherwise there will not be a lot of happy campers on PT.

That's interesting. I've never heard designs like that, I thought there ought to be a more effective shock absorbers to dissipate the resonance or something. I guess I'll come across that later in my engineering course. :)

[B787-938]

That's interesting. I've never heard designs like that, I thought there ought to be a more effective shock absorbers to dissipate the resonance or something. I guess I'll come across that later in my engineering course. :)
The movement really is minimal and about the cushioning where the beams meet the slabs and columns. If the joins were fully rigid they would be destroyed by the 10t buses bouncing over the bumps. It is quite lightweight structure for the purpose it performs.

[Auxodium]

Ipggi i understand that the ALP of the 80's definately set us back in financial growth as times were indeed tough. But at least they attempted to revitilise the rail system and i think that both parties need to buildon that regardless.

[Bonga]

I see no mention of the South Perth train station in either the Liberal or Labor transport promises. It was previously indicated that it would be constructed by 2010.

Is this still on the cards?

[tbor]

I thought it was included in the last budget?

[crazyknightsfan]

And on park and ride. Right now we have PnR that are at capacity, and a feeder bus system that most in the PnR would not change to because the frequencies are much too low.

TO me the most obvious solution is increase the bus frequencies, so that when the carparks are full a lot of people who are committed PT users will switch to a high frequency bus rather than risk there being nowhere to park. So you move towards a sustainable PT system.

INvesting in more PnR just means that the demand for buses is too low to justify increasing the services, so in the end you need more carparks again.

People in PnR have ALREADY made the choice to not drive all the way to the city, and have effectively said they will sacrifice the convenience of the car to save money on parking as long as the PT is efficient enough... so in a way they are BEGGING for better feeder buses, not more carparks... sure they whinge the other way but that is the nature of the beast.

and of course putting in more feeder buses means the non-whingers switch and are happy, and there are MORE CAR PARKS available for those who think PnR is their only option.

Just wanted to bring this post forth from the old thread as it hit the nail right on the head. Well done Matt B!

[Bonga]

I thought it was included in the last budget?
Cheers. If so, would that mean that construction is going to start this year?

[BartBart]

...
And yes, I agree somewhat with Ipggi comments about the Bell Tower. It's a lesson about political interference making something that was potentially grand to something that became a symbol of mediocrity. R Court never wanted it that small. How quickly we forget. Now the pendulum or disease of political opportunism has shifted to the Waterfront project. And, this is a project that probably wont mean public money wasted since it is self funding. Sad sad sad.

The problem was that it was seen as Court desperately trying to make a legacy to his time in charge along with the Maritime Museum in Freo when he saw his time running out. Any coincidence that both were made to look like boats since he was a yachting tragic?

[Scraperfan]

The Belltower was built to house the Bells Of St Martins In The Fields which was a bicentennial gift in 1988 to Perth from the city of London.

Its actually embarrassing that it took us 12 years to do anything with our "gift".

A maritime museum and a monument at the citys ferry terminal both having a boat theme? Yep, that sounds like a conspiracy alright. lol bart...

[BartBart]

I know why both were built - but it was obvious at the time that Court was using it as his legacy buildings. If you saw the recent episode of Hollowmen, it played out very similarly (to this outsider at least). And it fit in nicely with Court's love of all things nautical.

[Ipggi]

I don't think South Perth station was budgeted otherwise they would have started construction once the funds were allocated. Last year the station was pushed back from 2009 to 2010. So to me the ball is in the Liberals court.

[tbor]

I'm fairly sure the SP station was budgeted, but contruction wasn't to begin until the 3rd or 4qtr fin year in order to stagger capital works (... overloaded contruction industry yada yada)

[Ipggi]

I'm fairly sure the SP station was budgeted, but contruction wasn't to begin until the 3rd or 4qtr fin year in order to stagger capital works (... overloaded contruction industry yada yada)

From the last budget ... this doesn't look like it has been budgeted upfront though?

$450,000 to continue planning the South Perth train station (total project cost: $31.723million);
http://www.wa.alp.org.au/news/0508/08-37.php

[L2]

Some cool dude named drwaddles ;) made this excellent post on Railpage to do with park-and-ride. We've heard all the arguments here before (in the old PT thread).. but I thought I would post it here.

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1114018.htm#1114018
I'm reluctant to weigh into this argument again as I'm frankly sick of it. But seeing as I made the comment, I suppose I should give you an explanation.

The quick synopsis is that park and ride:
- provides a cap on the amount of people who can access the rail station (limited to the number of spaces)
- is really only available in the AM peak as 90% of the time all spots are gone before the end of the peak
- reduces the available land to provide people who are more likely to be captured to PT - i.e. those who live, shop, work etc. in the immediate vicinity of the station
- is very expensive relative to the number of passengers provided. OJ quoted $17k per space for multi-storey parking, multi-storey parking being required to get anywhere close to the critical mass of commuters required to make it worthwhile
- causes localised traffic congestion in both peaks, particularly affecting buses
- can compromise the operation of buses through conflicting land use, congestion on access roads etc.
- affects the cost recovery of bus services by diverting pax from them
- does not cater for anyone who cant drive
- does nothing for car dependence because it still requires that any person be required to own, maintain and use a car just for driving to the station. This is especially bad for families who could otherwise make do with sharing one car between both parents if it was not sitting in a parking lot all day

There's other reasons, but that will do for now.

Note that I have also considered those outside of the urban area which is suitable for providing the sort of bus frequencies that will reduce car usage (15min minimum, 10 or 5 preferred). I suggested that they park and ride at 'gateway' locations, i.e. a node where the semi-rural/exurban areas interface with the urban area.

Finally, it is not about capturing passengers to rail because rail is not the only PT mode. it is about providing the opportunity for door-to-door trips without the need for a private vehicle within the urban area, whether this involves rail, tram, bus is irrelevant. Somebody driving to the station is a worse outcome than someone using PT to reach the station.
:banana:

[Scraperfan]

they are valid points but i would now like to see him make a similar list of benefits.

saying "there are none" is not a valid answer. even the worst of ideas have some benefits.

[crazyknightsfan]

I believe the Good Doctor said this "I'm reluctant to weigh into this argument again as I'm frankly sick of it." ;)

[crazyknightsfan]

Park and ride brings world peace ;)

[L2]

Park and ride brings world peace ;)
Bus and ride brings war?

[crazyknightsfan]

It does on this forum (and Failpage)....

[docker]

James Street Bus Bridge

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/347/p1020305copywp3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3884/p1020306copyro0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[crazyknightsfan]

http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/Portals/0/images/Banners/Use%20the%20bus%20to%20catch%20the%20train.gif

[Scraperfan]

holy shit, thats going to be one big flyover soon. cool.

[docker]

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6800/image002qt1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[PerthSM]

^^

Wasn't that a certain parties policy??

Hopefully the Libs will wake up and smell the coffee...

[Sanj]

"The number could increase to as many as 24 sets if the price of fuel topped $4 a litre."


What is the relevance of this comment?

I think it is pretty obvious that if the price of fuel goes up to $4 that more people will be using public transport, however where is the context? When do they expect it to increase to $4 a litre? By 2016? I dont see it happening.

[Auxodium]

more sets, more stations, more rail lines in the city... that needs to be addressed

[Scraperfan]

it will be good to gauge opinion on how the system is performing when the new rail cars come online.

people are going to be pleasantly surprised with the increased frequency and room to move/sit in peak times.

[bennyboy777]

CIRCLE LINE NOW PLEASE Mr Barnett and O'Brien

[Auxodium]

Rail for all... i want Perth to push for more heavy rail. more rail! more! lol Mirrabooka area and surrounds would so use it to avoid using their overly expensive holden and ford v8's

[L2]

CIRCLE LINE NOW PLEASE Mr Barnett and O'Brien

Hasn't BleakCity already explained what's wrong with orbital lines through sprawl? :ohno:

[bennyboy777]

Whats wrong with it. Please tell me Broadgadge. Only 10% of people work in the CBD. Orbital lines allow people to get around a city without going to the CBD.

[didge73]

Rail for all... i want Perth to push for more heavy rail. more rail! more! lol Mirrabooka area and surrounds would so use it to avoid using their overly expensive holden and ford v8's

Your mentality is always on the same wavelength as mine :lol: I like.

There needs to be some sort of rail link from the CBD towards the Wanneroo area, basically in between the Joondalup and Midland lines. It could even be continued, connecting Joondalup station. Out of heavy or light, I don't know.

[Matt B]

Whats wrong with it. Please tell me Broadgadge. Only 10% of people work in the CBD. Orbital lines allow people to get around a city without going to the CBD.

Simply - there is not the demand. Heavy rail to the CBD works because lots of folks want to go there and the roads are jammed up. While significant numbers don't go to CBD, they don;t go anywhere else in particular so where does the rail go to? Also the roads are not clogged so why would people sacrifice the car for the rail? For mine those circles are all about light rail potential if anything over buses...

Circle Route is a good bus don;t get me wrong... but I'd doubt the patronage levels approach those required for rail or light rail in any but a small number of sectors...

[Scraperfan]

yeh and where would you bulldoze or dig through for this circle line?

look how long the scar from the northbridge tunnel took to build over.

lets keep our requests to a sensible and reasonable level here. that being said, i really want the highspeed monorail to scarborough from glendelough station. :)

[OzFrog]

look how long the scar from the northbridge tunnel took to build over.

Was the Graham Farmer tunnel all built by cut'n'cover?

[TRS-80]

Was the Graham Farmer tunnel all built by cut'n'cover?

Yep. The original plan (years ago) apparently was a surface highway, which is how main roads owned all the land.

Speaking of the polypipe, I worked out why they put up the eastbound and westbound signs - it's so people know which tunnel is shut for maintenance without having to think about it.

[BartBart]

Yep. The original plan (years ago) apparently was a surface highway, which is how main roads owned all the land.

Speaking of the polypipe, I worked out why they put up the eastbound and westbound signs - it's so people know which tunnel is shut for maintenance without having to think about it.

I assumed it is for out of towners - but I suppose there are plenty of ignorant people around that it'd help too.

[perthgazer]

can you just imagine if it ended being a surface highway *shudder*

they really didn't think right back in the 50s and 60s

[OzFrog]

Yep. The original plan (years ago) apparently was a surface highway, which is how main roads owned all the land.

Speaking of the polypipe, I worked out why they put up the eastbound and westbound signs - it's so people know which tunnel is shut for maintenance without having to think about it.

Ok cool... that would have been a major project indeed... are there any pics floating around of its construction?

[Auxodium]

i have magazine articles on the project kicking about

edit... i have to lookf or them.... lol piles of paperwork here

plus i found some old projects also! lol

[dallastexjr]

That sentence above is worthless unless you post them Aux lol.

[hack404]

it will be good to gauge opinion on how the system is performing when the new rail cars come online.

people are going to be pleasantly surprised with the increased frequency and room to move/sit in peak times.

We'd really only start to see a noticable difference once three or four sets come online and that's still a while away...

[perthgazer]

Yeah I think in the budgets papers there was only 2 3-car sets to come by July

[Scraperfan]

I thought we were taking delivery of about 6 by December?

[hack404]

I thought we were taking delivery of about 6 by December?

Just one set (three cars) will be coming...

[aaronaugi1]

Is the slow delivery time an EDI-Bom problem/delay or was it a state government issue?

[Auxodium]

No, delay because of QR's order i believe

[Dilaz89]

EDI are not taking any more orders until mid next year because pent up demand is so high.

[Perth4life]

Man i can't wait for 5 years or so when a C set is invented.. :D

[L2]

Why would they design an entirely new type of train in 5 years time? I suspect that Transperth will continue ordering more B series for extra capacity for years to come.

QR Citytrain's EMUs were delivered between 1979 and 1987 and TransAdelaide's 3000/3100s came between 1987 and 1996. Nothing wrong with long delivery runs.

Besides, EMUs are shit boring from a railfan's point of view.

I suspect that you just want something new to tag. :ohno:

[Perth4life]

ok, maybe 10 years is more realistic, i was only basing this on roughly 12 or so years from the A series being introduced onto Perths network before getting newer larger trains, by a C series i was meaning that in maybe 10 years, the A's would have been running for 27 years. Melbourne doesnt have that many Hitachi's left and theyve been running for 35 years, so you would think if a new govt decided to invest in PT in 10 years or so, a new type of train would be a good option.

And i just like the look of Melbourne's numerous different trains, 3 types here would be nice.

[Dilaz89]

the next order will be 'C" sets- 2 car 'B' sets built for older lines.

[Bonga]

Why would they design an entirely new type of train in 5 years time? I suspect that Transperth will continue ordering more B series for extra capacity for years to come.
I have heard that there is some technical reason the B-series are considered undesirable for regular use on the Midland, Armadale and Fremantle lines due to shorter distances between stations (compared to the Mandurah and Joondalup lines)... something to do with the engines or brakes? Do you know if there's any truth in this?

If this were the case, then wouldn't the PTA be inclined to look at a different model when the time eventually comes to increase frequencies/capacities on these older lines? Or would they be more likely to get the same model, but with the technical aspects reconfigured in some way?

I don't know much about this technology, so would love for someone to clarify this.

[Perth4life]

i read on wikipedia (reliable i know) that once the new sets come in 2009, they plan to run some B sets on the older lines.

[timofperth]

I have heard that there is some technical reason the B-series are considered undesirable for regular use on the Midland, Armadale and Fremantle lines due to shorter distances between stations (compared to the Mandurah and Joondalup lines)... something to do with the engines or brakes? Do you know if there's any truth in this?

If this were the case, then wouldn't the PTA be inclined to look at a different model when the time eventually comes to increase frequencies/capacities on these older lines? Or would they be more likely to get the same model, but with the technical aspects reconfigured in some way?

I don't know much about this technology, so would love for someone to clarify this.

Well, I do know that the Fremantle line will be the first to trail these sets, as more of the older stations are replaced with newer ones *finally* (i.e. Grant Street and Loch Street will be buldozed and a new station will be built inbetween) with extensions on all the Platforms. How crappy are the stations on the Midland/Armadle line, there like EWWW!

[L2]

the next order will be 'C" sets- 2 car 'B' sets built for older lines.
Why wouldn't they just extend the platforms to 6 cars, or just run 3-car B series trains on those lines?

Melbourne doesnt have that many Hitachi's left and theyve been running for 35 years, so you would think if a new govt decided to invest in PT in 10 years or so, a new type of train would be a good option.
Don't compare Perth with smelly Melbourne - those old things were already outdated in comparison to interstate rollingstock (no air cond) by the time that the last of them were still in the factory. Pax don't like them as they 'seem' noticably old.

Brisbane's oldest EMUs date from 1979 and there are no plans to withdraw any of them any time soon - they were fairly modern when built and are still a good relatively modern commuter train.

From a passengers point of view, the level of comfort on an A-series is not significantly different to a B-series. I suspect they have another 20 years left in them, unless they mechanically need replacing before then.

[L2]

(i.e. Grant Street and Loch Street will be buldozed and a new station will be built inbetween)
Umm, Grant St and Loch St are not intermediate stations - there is already multiple stations between them ;)

Well, I do know that the Fremantle line will be the first to trail these sets
Did the PTA consult you for advice?

How crappy are the stations on the Midland/Armadle line, there like EWWW!
Does every little insignificant halt serving some back streets need a massive glass concourse and bus terminal?

On the older lines a lot of the stations are in irrelevant locations ie to serve some random suburbia, and therefore have little facilities. Whilst on the newer lines the stations are a further apart (5km or so usually) and therefore only major stops were built (little bits of suburbia need feeder buses, not a trunk rail service.)

[Dilaz89]

There is not much of a case atm that warrants the extension of platforms on existing lines. Besides, the B sets are built for long distance travel at max or near max speed. Putting them on older lines would reduce thier lifespan significantly.

[timofperth]

^^ 20 YEARS!!! R u for Cereal?!?

I want NEW fast MAGLEVS capable of 450kmph HAHAHAHAHA :lol:

If I was minister:
- Approve high-frequency maglev train to shuttle passengers to and from Perth Airport.
- Tilt train from Perth to Bunbury.
- New stations along Mandurah Line, extension of Armadale line to Pinjarra, upgrade every station along the lines.
- 'Millenium' Trains, such as the one's in Sydney, double-deckers! yummy!
- Light rail connecting Mosman Park, UWA, Kings Park, Esplanade, South Perth, CBD, Northbridge Link, East Perth (including the future Museum), Bently (i.e. Curtin University), Murdoch (and University), WACA, you get the drill.
- Re-introduction of TransWA services along lines previously used, such as Kalgoorlie to Esperance, Perth to Albany (etc.)

:banana: I wish this could be true! :P

[L2]

I doubt it would reduce their lifespan, more that they couldn't keep to the timetables as well as an A-series which are better for stop-start runs with closely spaced stops.

They might be better suited to Armadale over the other 'old' lines, the station gaps are not as close as Freo and Midland lines and there is express running between Claisebrook-Oats Street-Cannington most of the day.

[L2]

20 YEARS!!! R u for Cereal?!?
Real, yes.

Corn Flakes, no.

- Approve high-frequency maglev train to shuttle passengers to and from Perth Airport.
No
- Tilt train from Perth to Bunbury.
No
extension of Armadale line to Pinjarra
No
- 'Millenium' Trains, such as the one's in Sydney, double-deckers! yummy!
No - you can come over here and dribble over them all you want, I find them blah on the East Hills Line.
- Re-introduction of TransWA services along lines previously used, such as Kalgoorlie to Esperance, Perth to Albany (etc.)
No

Anything that I have not said 'no' to may have some logic in part of it ;)

[timofperth]

Umm, Grant St and Loch St are not intermediate stations - there is already multiple stations between them ;)


Did the PTA consult you for advice?


Does every little insignificant halt serving some back streets need a massive glass concourse and bus terminal?

On the older lines a lot of the stations are in irrelevant locations ie to serve some random suburbia, and therefore have little facilities. Whilst on the newer lines the stations are a further apart (5km or so usually) and therefore only major stops were built (little bits of suburbia need feeder buses, not a trunk rail service.)

I meant by trailing the sets, is i heard a rumour, that they were extending length of platforms, dont be so attacking! :bash:

And also, I forgot the names of the stations on the Fremantle Line, Loch Street and Karrakatta I think now, lol, I can't remember, but there is something I know for sure that there is some extra station getting built in-between two 'old' ones.

I did not ask for a glass concourse, and NO, just NO, OK!
Even Kalamunda Bus Station is better than Burswood Station

[timofperth]

Real, yes.

Corn Flakes, no.


No

No

No

No - you can come over here and dribble over them all you want, I find them blah on the East Hills Line.

No

Anything that I have not said 'no' to may have some logic in part of it ;)

OK, then, why has other cities approved it then, hmmm??? Im not the only one you know, I didn't invent them, so stop stabbing me, you wanna fight, hmmm, ure asking for it.... whats wrong with a MAGLEV or a Tilt Train, seriously, WHATISWRONGWIDU!>!>!>!
lol

[Perth4life]

Double Decker trains look like shit when being used for suburban lines, i think they are practical however when being used for longer commuter routes.

[Sanj]

i think someone has eaten too much candy today...

[L2]

OK, then, why has other cities approved it then, hmmm???
How could "another city" have "approved" an extension of Armadale suburban services to Pinjarra, or a tilt train to Bumbury?

[L2]

hmmm, ure asking for it.... whats wrong with a MAGLEV or a Tilt Train, seriously, WHATISWRONGWIDU!>!>!>!
Some of us don't want infraustructure or trains built just because "Tilt trains r cool and maglev rox my sox" - I prefer what is most cost effective and appropriate for the job.

Run a normal train to Bumbury (via a new route) - if you want to be a non-dribbler, check out Riccardo's blog. He's blogged about it on there before.

http://railhobbies.blogspot.com

Double Decker trains look like shit when being used for suburban lines, i think they are practical however when being used for longer commuter routes.
Yeah, they're only really appropriate for longer distance commuter runs, not stop-start services.

i think someone has eaten too much candy today...
Indeed.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2264/2079640440_3cde021dbe_m.jpg
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/timsreflection/)

[crazyknightsfan]

i think someone has eaten too much candy today...

Me agree.

[alvse]

Drove past Kelmscott the other day.... the train station upgrade is looking HAWT!!!!!


now all they need to do is scrap Challis and Sherwood stations and either build a new station between them, to increase bus services and new routes.

[urbanwriter]

Barnett mentioned this morning on ABC Radio he did not favour rail into the airport but rather an improvement of the road network.

Discuss.

[ryan79]

What a surprise. And the downfall of Perth continues.

[PerthCity]

Depends what those improvements of the road network are.

[Hossen27]

Barnett mentioned this morning on ABC Radio he did not favour rail into the airport but rather an improvement of the road network.

Discuss.

well there is already some road upgrades of that area coming thanks to federal funding, three lanes all the way and minor intersection upgrades i think. There will be a need for rail IMO once the terminals are merged, this is just part of the Liberals reparing us for the scraping of many infrastructure projects. I cant see any more passenger rail being proposed in the next few years and I have grave worries for the Ellenbrook Line.

I hope The West will be running a stort on this Urban Writer

[Ipggi]

I am putting in a wild guess here. Road improvements would mean, after the domestic is merged into the international.

Upgrade Orrong Road feeding off the GF freeway all the way to Leech Highway, and then upgrade Leech to Tonkin, which is then only 1km from Horrie Miller Drive.

If they put in dedicated, isolated (from the main traffic) bus lanes that don't have any stops, that would be used by regularly serviced shuttle buses, like the SkyBus in Melbourne. Then I don't think it would be such a bad solution.

I still laugh at all the guys on this forum who were thinking a ticket the airport station would be the same price as a regular Transperth fare though. Clearly Barnett does not like the rail proposal due to costs involved.

[ryan79]

There'll be a positive spin if any storey by The West. I can feel it.

[urbanwriter]

You don't all expect me to respond to this, do you?
LOL

[ryan79]

Nah, I'm just putting my prediction out there. :)

And venting my frustration of being put back for another 4 years by Barney and being kept in the dark ages.

At least we'll get some positive government stories though for a change.

[urbanwriter]

You won't. The Government will always be put under a microscope... whichever colour its convictions.

[ryan79]

You won't. The Government will always be put under a microscope... whichever colour its convictions.

I'm not calling you a liar but I'll believe it when I see it.

So far I have yet to be proven wrong but feel free to shove the first negative Barney article in my face when it does.

Funny how our chair sniffing Treasurer has suddenly gone under the radar.

[B787-938]

There is not much of a case atm that warrants the extension of platforms on existing lines. Besides, the B sets are built for long distance travel at max or near max speed. Putting them on older lines would reduce thier lifespan significantly.
Some relatively trivial modifications to the traction and braking systems would take care of that if future B sets we're built for use on the older lines. The whole Armadale Line (plus Thornlie) could currently accept 3-car trains. There are a few bottlenecks on the other lines that can only take 2-cars but most could be easily extended if required.
The A-series 'design' life was 25 years but thats not to say they wont be in service a lot longer than that especially if there is little expenditure on new rollingstock. We might see in the distant future only 3 and 6 car trains on the network.

[samboy]

I think Rail to the airport is a pipe dream at this stage and not really financially viable. Heck even the airport itself is a pipe dream. As great as a rail system sounds I think and effective bus system could service it just as well in the medium term.

[ryan79]

Autotram. I'd support that.

Lol, yeah the airport has been how long in the making now? Just do it already!

[urbanwriter]

I'm not calling you a liar but I'll believe it when I see it.

So far I have yet to be proven wrong but feel free to shove the first negative Barney article in my face when it does.

Funny how our chair sniffing Treasurer has suddenly gone under the radar.

Oh FFS!

I'm tired of the cynicism.

I quit.

[ryan79]

So am I. Of our media.

I'm a lost cause mate. My thoughts are firmly entrenched of The West.

But I'm still a fan of yours :)

[Homeroids]

Barnett mentioned this morning on ABC Radio he did not favour rail into the airport but rather an improvement of the road network.

Discuss.


For someone who calls himself visionary and thinks Canals on a Martian scale, I am bewildered by the ongoing statements by Barnett towards visionary development. It does not bode well.

[samboy]

For someone who calls himself visionary and thinks Canals on a Martian scale, I am bewildered by the ongoing statements by Barnett towards visionary development. It does not bode well.

I think vision is great but you have to be able to back it up by practical measures.

I've seen plenty of Visions for Perth and I don't recall too many have come to fruition. We have been sold on Visions rather than outcome on many occasions.

I'd rather if our 'leaders' understate their vision and deliver something for a change.

[Sanj]

ryan come on mate, there is no need to lay into UW at every opportunity. I like his insight on these forums and enjoy his articles. everyone here has probably been frustrated by the west as some stage, some more regularly but do u need to get into it with him every single day?

[samboy]

Also Ryan what do you know about The West anyway, as far as I know you read 'Out' :lol:

[Scraperfan]

yeh ryan, dont scare dan away man. :)

i think a fair few people missed your point though. you actually paid him a compliment, saying that he was a great writer, forced to tarnish his credibility by working for a paper you think forces political bias.

hate the editor, not the paper.

the headline people and photo people would be sacked under my watch though.

basically i think the writers are good (ie dan, beatrice) but the editors, headline makers and photo archivists definately need replacing or retraining. a paper can consciously decide to use positive headlines. in fact, i think they have a moral responsibility to do so.

[Johnvb]

Airport train line will be sorely missed :( I think the psychological effects of having a line to the airport would really have a big impact. People perceive rail to be more efficient, run on schedule and hassle free which is why patronage to the city would be higher than with increased bus frequencies. I think it is a decision which we will live to regret as the state and airport grows... we need to plan for the future as always

[Auxodium]

I believe they will make B2's and then make a C set style in the 3rd set of orders... Transperth tends to do that

[L2]

This guy has the right idea:

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1037836.htm#1037836
Perth THINKS they have a world class system but they do NOT...

They system is built for people in the sticks to go IN OR OUT of the CBD. There is poor connections to places that are within 15k's of the CBD.

There are for a system (albeit is working due to demand) a shortage of rollingstock and connectivity between stations and the community, even 'TOD' stations.

Frequencies in peak is good, but off peak is so so and after hours at night....shocking.
(I snipped a little bit of dribble out of the bottom of the post)

[Auxodium]

no offence to timofperth but the WA Transport budget would be blown in 2 minutes if he builds maglev trains and puts b sets on freo and midland lines! :lol:

then again he didnt know too much about our previous minister's history :P lol

love when grandiose dreams are made :P i had them once :P

[ryan79]

yeh ryan, dont scare dan away man. :)

i think a fair few people missed your point though. you actually paid him a compliment, saying that he was a great writer, forced to tarnish his credibility by working for a paper you think forces political bias.

hate the editor, not the paper.

the headline people and photo people would be sacked under my watch though.

basically i think the writers are good (ie dan, beatrice) but the editors, headline makers and photo archivists definately need replacing or retraining. a paper can consciously decide to use positive headlines. in fact, i think they have a moral responsibility to do so.

Thats exactly right.

I got nothing against Dan at all and it is the Editor I hate.

I lay into The West not Dan.

He is our news breaker and does a fantastic job.

[ryan79]

Also Ryan what do you know about The West anyway, as far as I know you read 'Out' :lol:

Yeah but recently its had a real gay bias.

[Perth4life]

This guy has the right idea:

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1037836.htm#1037836

(I snipped a little bit of dribble out of the bottom of the post)


*Waits for Aux's comparrison with NY*

[Auxodium]

lol...

i believe that you guys are obsessed with me... thanks for the posts about me im flattered...honest

[city_thing]

no offence to timofperth but the WA Transport budget would be blown in 2 minutes if he builds maglev trains and puts b sets on freo and midland lines! :lol:

then again he didnt know too much about our previous minister's history :P lol

love when grandiose dreams are made :P i had them once :P

lol - Maglev's in Perth? That's hilarious......

As much as I love them, for the price and problems associated, there's not much point to them when tried and tested HSR technology is around. It's a little bit slower, but far FAR cheaper.

Maglevs would only get cheaper if lots of countries started investing and implementing the technology, and that's not going to happen. Why pay billions more for something that only goes moderately quicker than HSR?

[repi]

I am putting in a wild guess here. Road improvements would mean, after the domestic is merged into the international.

Upgrade Orrong Road feeding off the GF freeway all the way to Leech Highway, and then upgrade Leech to Tonkin, which is then only 1km from Horrie Miller Drive.

If they put in dedicated, isolated (from the main traffic) bus lanes that don't have any stops, that would be used by regularly serviced shuttle buses, like the SkyBus in Melbourne. Then I don't think it would be such a bad solution.

I still laugh at all the guys on this forum who were thinking a ticket the airport station would be the same price as a regular Transperth fare though. Clearly Barnett does not like the rail proposal due to costs involved.

Yes, and the airport masterplan plans for Leach to actually be extended through the airport grounds to Horrie Miller Drive, which will cut off that 'corner' of Tonkin and Horrie Miller that people currently have to negotiate.

[Auxodium]

lol - Maglev's in Perth? That's hilarious......

As much as I love them, for the price and problems associated, there's not much point to them when tried and tested HSR technology is around. It's a little bit slower, but far FAR cheaper.

Maglevs would only get cheaper if lots of countries started investing and implementing the technology, and that's not going to happen. Why pay billions more for something that only goes moderately quicker than HSR?

our aspiring DPI minister timofperth suggested maglev trains :P

[Tyler]

I think Rail to the airport is a pipe dream at this stage and not really financially viable. Heck even the airport itself is a pipe dream. As great as a rail system sounds I think and effective bus system could service it just as well in the medium term.

I agree with you Samboy. Even if rail to the airport was committed to by the end of the year, it will still take 2 years at least to build it.

The current bus service, Route 37 has outgrown it's role as the main trunk route to the airport. We need a direct, fast, frequent and accessable bus service to the airport.

My idea for a new bus service linking the Domestic airport with the city is to run it via Great Eastern Highway, Victoria Park transfer station, St Georges Tce, Kings Park Rd, Thomas St, QE11 hospital, UWA, Stirling Hwy then terminate at Claremont station.

At night after 6:30/7 pm it would deviate via Burswood hotel and casino to improve connections to this major activity centre.

It would run every 15 mins 7 days a week from 5am to midnight operating as a limited stops service outside the city.

To address the accessablilty issue, Welshpool (who now have 18 new CNG buses) and Shenton Park depots would operate the services.

Improvements to bus services is one of the cheapest and fasters way to improve public transport services and patronage so this plan would be easy to implement.

[L2]

37 is nothing more than a route from the back streets of Belmont etc to the Perth CBD, extended to the airport to provide a basic service there. IIRC in the past there was another 30min express route to the airport, and the 37 (every 30mins), and it was deleted while 37 was extended to the airport and bumped up to 20min.

Hardly a trunk route, and the 20 min frequency is laughable. I doubt it gets many pax boarding at the airport.

Even more hilarious that people want a new rail line built for a service that doesn't even have a presently existing bus route

[city_thing]

our aspiring DPI minister timofperth suggested maglev trains :P



lol, I know, I just couldn't be bothered searching for his post :P

I knew that you'd know better than to think Maglev would be viable anywhere in Australia. Isn't Shanghai's going broke anyway?

Shanghai built theirs as a grand entry statement to 'the city of the future'. In practical terms, it's crap, though it sure impresses visitors. But Shanghai (and the rest of China) doesn't really seem to think through the entire situation before coughing up a few billion to build something. - now Shanghai is rebuilding some of their year old metro lines because they've decided that they'd look better underground, and their office market has a 30% occupancy rate but they still keep throwing up towers as quick as they can.

Now the rest of the planned Maglev line connecting to Hongqiao and Huangzhou is probably going to be scrapped due to people protesting about the radiation the elevated lines emit and because for the price they could build an HSR line double the length.

The fact that China is going will HSR as opposed to Maglev to connect up their megacities speaks volumes.

[Auxodium]

the technology is impressive but i just dont think it is ready yet for the society we have at the moment... too expensive, just like hydrogen fuel cell cars...

[samboy]

lol, I know, I just couldn't be bothered searching for his post :P

I knew that you'd know better than to think Maglev would be viable anywhere in Australia. Isn't Shanghai's going broke anyway?

Shanghai built theirs as a grand entry statement to 'the city of the future'. In practical terms, it's crap, though it sure impresses visitors. But Shanghai (and the rest of China) doesn't really seem to think through the entire situation before coughing up a few billion to build something. - now Shanghai is rebuilding some of their year old metro lines because they've decided that they'd look better underground, and their office market has a 30% occupancy rate but they still keep throwing up towers as quick as they can.

Now the rest of the planned Maglev line connecting to Hongqiao and Huangzhou is probably going to be scrapped due to people protesting about the radiation the elevated lines emit and because for the price they could build an HSR line double the length.

The fact that China is going will HSR as opposed to Maglev to connect up their megacities speaks volumes.


It impresses the tourists and I loved the experience (best $10 I've ever spent) but you're right I was told by locals that it's a money pitt and has never been financially viable. As you said it seems to be all about image over there BUT do not underestimate image. Perhaps in a roundabout 'out of the box' indirect kind of way they'll recoup their money.
They have managed to put Shanghai on the map and it doesn't seem to be any shortage of investors.

[Skyline Art]

the technology is impressive but i just dont think it is ready yet for the society we have at the moment... too expensive, just like hydrogen fuel cell cars...

There is a guy on ebay selling hydrogen conversions for cars in the same way people do for LPG. Alas he is an ex long time NASA engineer or something, he also used to work for Boeing i think. Anyway you can buy hydrogen conversions off him on ebay for about $500 plus the extra parts depends on how old your car is... Other people on ebay sell similar kits too...


:)

[Tyler]

OMG :banana:

Just looking over the changes occuring on the 19th of next month and they've made significant improvements to services to the Domestic Terminal. Now the 36 and 40 will serve the airport. This now provides a direct link between Midland/Guildford with the Domestic terminal. :)

Also a direct route from Perth along Gt Eastern Highway although the frequency is only minimal with 30 mins weekdays, hourly saturdays and every 2 hours on Sundays.

Here's the new map and timetable:

http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/timetablePDFs/Eastern%20100%2020081019.pdf

[L2]

every 2 hours on Sundays.
Lol. :lol:

[docker]

You don't all expect me to respond to this, do you?
LOL

hell yes, the labor party promised that if they got in, they would add a study for an extension into maida vale and forrestfield, to the current study for a train-line to the airport. which obviously would mean tapping into a population 50,000 and becoming my new train line which i could catch a 5/10min bus to... better than 2 hour bus frequencies on sundays.

now i am not even going to get a rail-line to the airport, or the new express buses labor would of brought in...

[Auxodium]

Hydrogen fuel cells are a good 50 years away... pffft


lol 2 hours L2 how craaap

in regards to hills lines, yeah sure there would be 50,000 people but they are so incredibly scattered the area would be utterly pointless... it would be like a Indian Pacific rail stop at Cook station or some middle of nowhere style place...

L2 would know about Cook Station's location ;)

[Homeroids]

I'm confused - who proposed maglev for Perth?

[hack404]

OMG :banana:

Just looking over the changes occuring on the 19th of next month and they've made significant improvements to services to the Domestic Terminal. Now the 36 and 40 will serve the airport. This now provides a direct link between Midland/Guildford with the Domestic terminal. :)

Also a direct route from Perth along Gt Eastern Highway although the frequency is only minimal with 30 mins weekdays, hourly saturdays and every 2 hours on Sundays.

Here's the new map and timetable:

http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/timetablePDFs/Eastern%20100%2020081019.pdf

Judging by the timetables, the trip will now be only thirty minutes as opposed to forty five minutes (on a good day)...

[acc521]

Hydrogen fuel cells are definately the way of the future for a large part out our fuel needs, not just PT.

[Scraperfan]

...for buses and trucks.

not for cars. the infrastructure required to distribute the hydrogen is massive. For personal car use, electricity will be the next generation. first hybrids, then all out electric.

There are 2 new models of all electric cars are due on the market in the usa in 2010.

The Tesla Roadster and Chevvy Volt.

[PerthSM]

*sigh*

As I mentioned in the previous transport thread, hydrogen is the biggest wind up in history.

Electric cars can already do what they're claiming to do. The only reason they're pushing hydrogen is so that they can sell it. There are so many problems with hydrogen it's not even funny. If we put the effort we're putting into hydrogen into developing elecs even more then we probably won't even need hydrogen anyway.

Oh and bring on fusion power!

[Auxodium]

I'm confused - who proposed maglev for Perth?

timofperth :P

i agree with PerthSM... they really need to start using electric cars because they can do what hydrogen cells can do atm... plus the technology is 50 years away and that would mean still petrol transport is used and making prices more expensive.

[perthgazer]

hydrogen fuel cells are a sham aimed at making cars still run on a sort of 'fuel' rather than electricity

hopefully the world doesnt fall for it and funnily enough one of the biggest pushers of hydrogen has been Bush, along with ethanol

[Scraperfan]

watch a doco called "who killed the electric car?"

shows george bush at a hydrogen station saying its the fuel of the future. what a load of shit.

the lengths mobil and GM went to to get the "evo" (the first electric car) off the road in california is amazing. people were begging them not to take them back (as they were only leased) and they crushed every last one of them even though there was a backlog of orders and the owners offered heaps of money to save them.

electric cars are coming though, GM own chevy who have made a car called the volt, due in 1-2 years.

look up tesla roadster and chevy volt on youtube.

[acc521]

Well I admit I have done little research into the area. Hydrogen just always seemed like a good option. I'll take what all you have said on board and do a bit of research of my own :)

[B787-938]

Hydrogen is easily accessible, clean and infinitely abundant. So as far as fuel goes its pretty handy. Like most fuels it has its storage and transport problems though.

In any vehicular case electrical propulsion has its problems because of the amount of power that can be contained onboard (solar power would be an exception). In any case fuel needs to be consumed to generate that power and hydrogen is as good as any.

Fusion power is the way to go eventually once the new generation plants have proven their reliability.

[acc521]

Is Hydrogen better suited to things that require battery power like laptops, phones etc?

[timofperth]

Some of us don't want infraustructure or trains built just because "Tilt trains r cool and maglev rox my sox" - I prefer what is most cost effective and appropriate for the job.

Run a normal train to Bumbury (via a new route) - if you want to be a non-dribbler, check out Riccardo's blog. He's blogged about it on there before.

http://railhobbies.blogspot.com

Yeah, they're only really appropriate for longer distance commuter runs, not stop-start services.


Indeed.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2264/2079640440_3cde021dbe_m.jpg
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/timsreflection/)

what how did you get that, your pervet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That picture was like taken 2 years ago!! lol
ewww that's groossssss

[Mat_351]

Even more hilarious that people want a new rail line built for a service that doesn't even have a presently existing bus route

Dude it is not meant as an exclusive Airport only train line but rather to service the corridor to the airport with a view to extending into a well populated area beyond. My personal view and the view of many others is that buses suck. They are very stop start and subject to road congestion. Trains are a much more comfortable, reliable and convenient way to go. I have always found bus schedules to be a rough guide rather than a true schedule. I remember when I use to catch buses there were many occasions when the would be 10-20 mins late, sometimes early and other times not show up at all. Personally I would not risk my oversea's holiday on a Transperth bus getting me to the airport on time but I would trust a train service.

[crazyknightsfan]

what how did you get that, your pervet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That picture was like taken 2 years ago!! lol
ewww that's groossssss

BroadGauge the Tank Engine knows all.

[Auxodium]

BroadGauge the Tank Engine knows all.

:lol: amen!

timofperth... visit railpage and get the info from the dour and rather unimaginative members that are there...sure they talk mainly about freight trains but put up with that and you will be well informed.


lol mikeinthewest... LOL

[Ipggi]

watch a doco called "who killed the electric car?"

shows george bush at a hydrogen station saying its the fuel of the future. what a load of shit.

the lengths mobil and GM went to to get the "evo" (the first electric car) off the road in california is amazing. people were begging them not to take them back (as they were only leased) and they crushed every last one of them even though there was a backlog of orders and the owners offered heaps of money to save them.

You also need to remember all documentaries are inherently bias and only give one point of view of the producer/director. You can't take everything you see in a contemporary political documentary as face value.

For example Michael Moore is notorious for setting up scenes and situations in his documentaries to give added dramatic impact. That famous clip in Bowling for Columbine where he picks up a gun from a bank, he later admitted it all setup and prompted by him after he bought the newly picked up gun from a vault many miles away into the bank.

Maybe you should read the other side of the EV1 story and then come to your own opinion?
http://fyi.gmblogs.com/2006/06/who_ignored_the_facts_about_th.html

[city_thing]

Michael Moore has good intentions, but his documentaries are so erroneous that you can't really take them seriously.

Did anyone watch Sicko? He made it seem like the health systems in Britain and France are just amazing, when the NHS is on the verge of imploding and the French healthy system takes the term 'welfare state' to the extreme.

And Crazyknightsfan, awesome work finding that photo, I haven't laughed so hard in weeks.

I remember being a young skinny fag once...

anyway, did the Liberals have a real public transport plan other than building more park and rides and a much belated Ellenbrook line?

Bandaid solutions anyone?

[Bump]

I don't believe so. Perhaps we should send in our own 20 year public transport plan?

[PerthSM]

The Libs 20 year PT plan is actually quite reasonable...

The Freo-Cockburn rail connection is something I couldn't help noticing...

[TRS-80]

The Libs 20 year PT plan is actually quite reasonable...

The Freo-Cockburn rail connection is something I couldn't help noticing...
Interesting bits of the Liberal policy document (http://www.wa.liberal.org.au/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=139&Itemid=141):
A Liberal Government will work closely with Westralian Airports Corporation to:
Develop a new rapid transit service to connect with Perth Airport;
Improve road connections to the airport estate; and
Include Perth Airport as a major point of destination in a future, integrated public transport network.


Trialing and developing additional peak-period trunk routes;
Promoting the advantages of commuter use of bus feeder services to access passenger rail corridors;

Develop a $6 million 20 Year Transport Master Plan
A Liberal Government will develop a blueprint for a future integrated public transport system, including planning for:
High capacity passenger rail services to major centres such as the Perth Airport and major hospitals.
Rail services from Fremantle to the Southern rail line
A new rail service to Ellenbrook
Extension of the Northern Suburbs line to Butler, Brighton, Alkimos and beyond.
Extending the Armadale line to Byford and examining the case for services to Mundijong
The extension of high-speed future services to Bunbury, with possible extension of tourist services to Busselton.
A Liberal Government will return the ownership of taxi plates currently owned by the Government to the private sector.
A Liberal Government will examine the feasibility of establishing a major freight interchange near Kalgoorlie, to reduce the volume of freight being unnecessarily transported to, around and then out of the metropolitan area

[timofperth]

Surely not Manjimup?

Do you mean Mundijong?

[TRS-80]

So the only major PT project the libs aren't up for from reading their policy is the rapid transit up Alexander Drive. The region served by it is mostly covered by the electoral districts of Nollamara (strong ALP, 62/38) and West Swan (ALP 55/45).

[timofperth]

I know you all metaphorically stabbed me for saying this; but these just look so delicious!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25810126@N05/

[Dilaz89]

Is posting pics of maglevs in the PT thread any more spammy than ripping into MM in this thread?

Liberal party better do something about serving the marginal seats of Kingsley and Wanneroo if they want to form majority govt next time round.

[L2]

My personal view and the view of many others is that buses suck
Yawn.

Personally I would not risk my oversea's holiday on a Transperth bus getting me to the airport on time
What idiot gets to the airport for an international flight 10mins before check-in closes?

what how did you get that, your pervet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Google'd your MSN address.

groossssss
That's how that I would describe most lollies.

timofperth... visit railpage and get the info from the dour and rather unimaginative members that are there...sure they talk mainly about freight trains but put up with that and you will be well informed.
Lol at that. Typical WA Railpage post is something like:

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1113340.htm#1113340
With what DA1578 and Mike_in_the_west has asked. If ARG are going to this event, it will not be S2106 as a S Class cannot afford be out of action for a day. It would most likely be ARG/QR Yellow or ARG/QR Orange locomotives

heres whats in the ARG/QR livery

AB1501, AB1503, AC1520, AC1521, DBZ2301, DBZ2305, DBZ2307, DD2355, DD2356, DD2357, DD2358, DD2359, DFZ2404, DFZ2406, LZ3112, LZ3114, LZ3119, LZ3120, P2501, P2508, P2509, P2510, P2515, P2516, Q4002, Q4012, Q4014, Q4015, Q4016, S3304, S3307, S3310 (currently being reapinted). A DD and DFZ would be really interesting to see at the event

There you go. Thats the list of locos in ARG/QR paint. 2 of them could go to Railfest
http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1106042.htm#1106042
http://www.visionwa.org.au/mediareleases/newdirection310808.pdf

A lots of Money is going to be spent on Public transport, Why Extention to Ellenbrook???

[alvse]

Hey Aux... you going to RailFest on the 12th October in Bassendean?

[docker]

:doh: i can't believe this article, lets not focus on so many people walking or riding, which ofcourse we so desperatly need cos we are a fat and unhealthy country, or that so many people are catching buses or carpooling, lets just say there is not enough parking for 80% of the people...

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5450/image001jl3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

i guess an upside to creating more carparking now, is that it means the land will still be there in decades time to create some TODs, rather than them becoming small housing estates now.

[Perth4life]

wow what a stupid article, should there be a car bay for everyone planning on catching the train? once again completely defeating the purpose of pt.

Not to mention the selection of detail shown in this article, they've chosen to use Shenton Park as an example? with 11 parking bays, i think maybe North Fremantle would be more appropriate which has about 30 odd? and also has quite a high patronage... Loch Street? Come on.

[alvse]

Have they compaired the commuter to car park ratio in other cities? I would think 5 to 1 was a good ratio for public transport :nuts:

[B787-938]

Using Shenton Park among other stations on the Freo line to push this barrow is laughable :lol: The Freo line largely isnt a Park n Ride designed line. I'd like to hear where the West believes additional facilities can be added on that line.

[Homeroids]

Hydrogen fuel cells a shame?

Who said that? LOL, JJk

The issue is production of the Hydrogen. It's the most abundant element in the Universe, unfortunately not that abundant on it's own on our little planet. It takes other fuels to extract the hydrogen so the net gain over fossil fuels is hardly worth it. But when the H Cell is in place, it's not a sham.

Hopefully a real cheap, economical, non-fossil fuel methodology will be found to extract H and then we are all cool.

[B787-938]

Hydrogen fuel cells a shame?

Who said that? LOL, JJk

The issue is production of the Hydrogen. It's the most abundant element in the Universe, unfortunately not that abundant on it's own on our little planet. It takes other fuels to extract the hydrogen so the net gain over fossil fuels is hardly worth it. But when the H Cell is in place, it's not a sham.

Hopefully a real cheap, economical, non-fossil fuel methodology will be found to extract H and then we are all cool.
Electrolysis produces hydrogen (and either oxygen or chlorine). In theory you could operate an electrolysis plant used electricity supplied from non-fossil fueled generators (like wind turbines etc) or even other hydrogen fuel cells :cool:

[crazyknightsfan]

Tasmania has actually had a few electrolytic industries operating for many years - they were lured to Tassie by the prospect of dirt cheap, bulk electricity thanks to their hydo-electric schemes in the early part of last century.

Is using electricity to produce hydrogen worth it, though? It would surely produce some form of net energy loss. If you've got electricity in the first place, it might be better to stick with it.

[Auxodium]

Hey Aux... you going to RailFest on the 12th October in Bassendean?

might do, why is that alvse? :P lol

[hack404]

Doesn't Shenton Park get a lot of school students? Are they included in the figures?

The Maylands figures don't account for the 100-200 cars parked in the street, using verges, or illegally using commercial spaces...

[Homeroids]

Electrolysis produces hydrogen (and either oxygen or chlorine). In theory you could operate an electrolysis plant used electricity supplied from non-fossil fueled generators (like wind turbines etc) or even other hydrogen fuel cells :cool:

You may as well use the electricity for other needs. They need a way to extract the Hydrogen more efficiently, using a method that preferably has a lower ratio of dependence on energy that goes into extracting it in the first place.

The solution you mention, if it was economically viable, would be everywhere.

[Dilaz89]

If the current ratio is 5-1, that's fucking brilliant!

This only proves that we should not be wasting money on more bays.

[B787-938]

You may as well use the electricity for other needs. They need a way to extract the Hydrogen more efficiently, using a method that preferably has a lower ratio of dependence on energy that goes into extracting it in the first place.

The solution you mention, if it was economically viable, would be everywhere.
There is no better method of generating hydrogen without producing undesirable waste (usually CO2) or consuming more energy. If these methods were going to become more attractive you'd think it would be as oils supplies thin and/or their price continues to rise. For transport purposes the energy needs to be stored....hydrogen cells are in a way just a more advanced battery.

[Urbania]

^^
That's exactly what I was thinking. Having 80% of train users not using their car is fantastic...

[Perth4life]

i seriously can't get over the attitude in this city that people should be able to have a car bay each to catch the train..

does my head in.

[samboy]

That's because this city is so 'immature' in so many ways people don't seem to understand the concept of PT. Same way they don't know what congestion is. the list goes on.

[Perth4life]

I still can't believe u havn't used PT in Perth, maybe just walk down to leederville train station and hop on to the city and back?

[L2]

There's only 70,000 boardings per day on the Transperth network?

How pathetic. :ohno:

[crazyknightsfan]

:doh: i can't believe this article, lets not focus on so many people walking or riding, which ofcourse we so desperatly need cos we are a fat and unhealthy country, or that so many people are catching buses or carpooling, lets just say there is not enough parking for 80% of the people...

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5450/image001jl3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

i guess an upside to creating more carparking now, is that it means the land will still be there in decades time to create some TODs, rather than them becoming small housing estates now.

Fuck I love park and ride.

next they will be wanting parking spaces on the fucking train itself.

[Perth4life]

No BG i'm pretty sure it's closer to 150,000 for trains alone, if you read under the picture it says excludes people who get to the station via bus or train.

[L2]

OK, so 70,000 individual users? (under the assumption that most make a return trip)

Still pathetic in a city the size of Perth.

[Perth4life]

I never said it was good, but for such a car orientated city i think it's ok, Copenhagen has a similar sized population, with more lines and relies on PT much more, and they only have 250,000 boardings on their S-Train service daily, so thats 125,000 as against 75,000 of Perth...

[Auxodium]

OK, so 70,000 individual users? (under the assumption that most make a return trip)

Still pathetic in a city the size of Perth.

BTW, what is the line that you find the best for tagging on?

agreed...ALP has failed to get people on board... thought it was meant to double in 2007? ;)

so does that mean it was 45,000 people??? shocking...

[Urbania]

I think it is only 70,000 for the stations listed. Not for the whole network. I'd say it's about double that.

[Perth4life]

No it's not, its 70,000 for all stations on all lines for people that use Park and Ride i'm pretty sure.

[docker]

yeah i think it is the number of people who buy a ticket or tag on at a train station, heading in the one direction, but have not already got a ticket from a bus or train that day.

so basiclly 70,000 is the number of people who either walk, ride a bike, get dropped off or car pool to a station to ride the train. there are still more people, who have a connecting bus or train but those people are not included for some reason.

[L2]

No it's not, its 70,000 for all stations on all lines for people that use Park and Ride
That doesn't make any sense. :nuts:

Obviously Perth doesn't have 70,000 Park and Ride spaces.

Obviously there are people who Park and Ride on every line.

[Ipggi]

There's only 70,000 boardings per day on the Transperth network?

How pathetic. :ohno:

Cho cho ...

Pre-Southern Suburbs Rail, in 2006/2007 there were 35,758,000 train boardings. That is almost a 100,000 a day if you divide it by 365 days.

[Urbania]

Cho cho ...

Pre-Southern Suburbs Rail, in 2006/2007 there were 35,758,000 train boardings. That is almost a million a day if you divide it by 365 days.

100,000 a day...?

I thought the projections were approx 50 - 55 million a year with the SSR on board.

[Ipggi]

100,000 a day...?

I thought the projections were approx 50 - 55 million a year with the SSR on board.

Yeah, I am guessing that newspaper report is only counting the stations with park in ride?

[city_thing]

Fuck I love park and ride.

next they will be wanting parking spaces on the fucking train itself.

lol. I can just imagine a Eurostar type situation, with people parking on the train and driving them away at the end of the line. Huge moving carparks going up and down the freeway :P

[sandstorm6299]

The 70000 is just the total for the 15 stations listed. Just add up the numbers for the 15 stations and you get the 70000. There's absolutely no way there could just be 70000 boardings a day on the entire network, or for only Park and Ride stations.

The RAC surveyed a number of people, and of the total, 70000+ say they drive to one of these 15 train stations.

In any case, this is just ridiculous. Instead of supporting the construction of more lots, there should be more support for PT and encouraging the use of PT rather than spend more money on land that's used from 8 am to 6 pm for only 5 days a week.

[crazyknightsfan]

I keep recycling this post coz Matt B hit the nail on the head. But I know I'm preaching to either the converted or those who don't want to be scolded by ckf ;)

And on park and ride. Right now we have PnR that are at capacity, and a feeder bus system that most in the PnR would not change to because the frequencies are much too low.

TO me the most obvious solution is increase the bus frequencies, so that when the carparks are full a lot of people who are committed PT users will switch to a high frequency bus rather than risk there being nowhere to park. So you move towards a sustainable PT system.

INvesting in more PnR just means that the demand for buses is too low to justify increasing the services, so in the end you need more carparks again.

People in PnR have ALREADY made the choice to not drive all the way to the city, and have effectively said they will sacrifice the convenience of the car to save money on parking as long as the PT is efficient enough... so in a way they are BEGGING for better feeder buses, not more carparks... sure they whinge the other way but that is the nature of the beast.

and of course putting in more feeder buses means the non-whingers switch and are happy, and there are MORE CAR PARKS available for those who think PnR is their only option.

[bennyboy777]

I think there is a total of 180,000 boarding a day which is 90,000 individual users for the trains only. So basically, the majority of CBD users use public transport with a CBD workforce of 115,000 (because it's easier, way cheaper and there is only 10,000 parking spots in the CBD). They need to get people who don't work in the CBD on public transport. They could only really do this by making the city more dense which creates more demand for public transport but ultimately until fuel prices go up further, you wont see a max number leaving there cars at home because if you get free parking public transport doesn't work out to be much cheaper.

[bennyboy777]

I never said it was good, but for such a car orientated city i think it's ok, Copenhagen has a similar sized population, with more lines and relies on PT much more, and they only have 250,000 boardings on their S-Train service daily, so thats 125,000 as against 75,000 of Perth...

About 25% of people ride there bikes in Copenhagen so that's why the PT figures aren't higher.

[PerthCity]

There's only 70,000 boardings per day on the Transperth network?

How pathetic. :ohno:

Did you think we only had 3 stations on our lines?

:lol:

[chrisaus]

when you think about it not having parking means more peopel use kiss and ride which means instead of say driving 3 km to the station then 3km home, the person who takes you drives 3km there 3km home then after work 3km there and 3km home, so not having parking means in this example 12km of car use instead of 6km...

[Matt B]

when you think about it not having parking means more peopel use kiss and ride which means instead of say driving 3 km to the station then 3km home, the person who takes you drives 3km there 3km home then after work 3km there and 3km home, so not having parking means in this example 12km of car use instead of 6km...

at least they are not driving all the way to the city kiss n ride...

[Matt B]

THat article is crap.

Look at the Armadale line!!! only 2k bays for the same number of passengers as the SSR pulls in with 5k. ANd yet it gets even more promised!!!!

THose 3000 new bays will cost 90million - surely the Nats will tell them to ditch those carparks.This O'Brien has no clue!

ANd CKF - thanks for recognising my occasional moments of genius.;)

[city_thing]

About 25% of people ride there bikes in Copenhagen so that's why the PT figures aren't higher.

I was about to write that earlier, but decided against it as I thought it might be too 'spammy'.

The S-Tog is just one of many methods of getting about CPH, bikes are everywhere and I've never seen a city that had such constantly full buses. Every bus was always full there for some reason, it was weird. The S-Tog was never really that full though. Plus the S-Tog doesn't cover South Copenhagen, hence why the Metro was constructed out there - so I assume that means a quarter of CPH's train users aren't covered in those previously mentioned stats because they're two different systems...

The metro is the red and orange lines...

http://www.wandawanders.com/images/stories/200608/metro_copenhagen_large.gif

My apartment was just down the street from Islands Brygge station.

[bennyboy777]

THat article is crap.

Look at the Armadale line!!! only 2k bays for the same number of passengers as the SSR pulls in with 5k. ANd yet it gets even more promised!!!!

THose 3000 new bays will cost 90million - surely the Nats will tell them to ditch those carparks.This O'Brien has no clue!

ANd CKF - thanks for recognising my occasional moments of genius.

I think the Mandurah line boardings are closer to the Joundalup line boardings than the Armadale line. I think its around 24,000 people per day use it (48,000 boardings) and the Joundalup is closer to 28,000 people per day (56,000 boardings).

Its interesting O'Brien said that Perth has a first class train network but not enough parking. To me he is congratulating the previous government for all their work when most pollies would be blaming the previous government for all there problems.

[Matt B]

I think the Mandurah line boardings are closer to the Joundalup line boardings than the Armadale line. I think its around 24,000 people per day use it (48,000 boardings) and the Joundalup is closer to 28,000 people per day (56,000 boardings).
.

I was just using the comparisons and rations form the article in the table. The number of boardings per line is not just the sum of the stations listed, so my assumption is it is for all stations.... but then of course they bizarrly exclude people who link by bus???

[Auxodium]

either way the boardings are still poor compared to the city's size and the attempt that the lines are supposed to achieve.

[crazyknightsfan]

when you think about it not having parking means more peopel use kiss and ride which means instead of say driving 3 km to the station then 3km home, the person who takes you drives 3km there 3km home then after work 3km there and 3km home, so not having parking means in this example 12km of car use instead of 6km...

And it means the car is available for someone else to use during the day.

Don't assume that kiss and ride is necessarily a return trip. When I drop Mrs ckf to get the bus to work, I don't go back home, I drive straight to work.

[Bonga]

.... but then of course they bizarrly exclude people who link by bus???
Maybe they can't reliably measure the number of people who transfer from other services? Most people probably purchase a ticket for their whole journey (bus + train) on the bus, so it would be impossible to know exactly how many bus passengers transfer to another service. Same goes for transfers between different train lines.

Of course, they would know the number of about SmartRider passengers transferring between services, so you would think they could come up with a pretty reliable estimate of total transfers. But this particular study might have been looking only at actual numbers, not estimates.

[crazyknightsfan]

Or it was done specifically to make a point about the "need" for more peaking spaces. Ignore the bus transfers because they don't help the argument ;)

[crazyknightsfan]

THose 3000 new bays will cost 90million...

Where'd you get that figure from?

Before the election, Barney promised up to 3,000 new bays to cost $49 million, i.e. $16,333 per space at the cheapset. Source (http://www.wa.liberal.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=519:liberals-plan-for-a-better-public-transport-system&catid=54:loop-news-category&Itemid=109)

Brumby (Victorian Premier) also promised $29 million for 1700 new parking spaces, i.e. $17,050 per space approximately. Source (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/latest-problem-on-train-network--car-parks/2008/05/26/1211653938466.html)

If 3,000 parking spaces cost $90 million, that's not far off double both these cost estimates.

[eastadl]

does anyone have or know where to find that graph of train patronage before and after the electrication and upgrade happened:):)

[Matt B]

Where'd you get that figure from?

Before the election, Barney promised up to 3,000 new bays to cost $49 million, i.e. $16,333 per space at the cheapset. Source (http://www.wa.liberal.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=519:liberals-plan-for-a-better-public-transport-system&catid=54:loop-news-category&Itemid=109)

Brumby (Victorian Premier) also promised $29 million for 1700 new parking spaces, i.e. $17,050 per space approximately. Source (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/latest-problem-on-train-network--car-parks/2008/05/26/1211653938466.html)

If 3,000 parking spaces cost $90 million, that's not far off double both these cost estimates.

I suppose that their freeway location means that they can be pretty ugly bare bones structures.... but the fact it is a govt project, overruns, blowouts, well that send prices up.

Plus the structures would probably go up on top of existing carparks, so 3000 extra means 4000+ mulstistorey bays (as you lose the at grade bays you already had).

I'm just saying that, as a transport planner, I'd always use 30k per bay as my back of the envelope cost per bay.

[Matt B]

Maybe they can't reliably measure the number of people who transfer from other services? Most people probably purchase a ticket for their whole journey (bus + train) on the bus, so it would be impossible to know exactly how many bus passengers transfer to another service. Same goes for transfers between different train lines.

Of course, they would know the number of about SmartRider passengers transferring between services, so you would think they could come up with a pretty reliable estimate of total transfers. But this particular study might have been looking only at actual numbers, not estimates.

well then why exclude them? the smartrider system would record every tag-on at the train station... one wonders how they managed to exclude bus patrons... the only way they could do that is by knowing the number of people who transferred.

[sandstorm6299]

All the data given was probably only from the survey, and no other sources. Nah, this survey is rubbish and all it does is say that there is insufficient parking lots for the number of people that wish to park there.

It says nothing about how many people use public transport to get to the train, how much in need the bus system is, or that how some stations just cannot afford to carve space from its surroundings to dedicate to parking.

[andrewM]

maybe we should follow Tokyo's lead and build bicycle silos at our train stations..car silos are so passe

http://www.transscan.com/highlights/2008/2008-09-japan-goes-underground.asp

[docker]

does anyone have or know where to find that graph of train patronage before and after the electrication and upgrade happened:):)

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8060/railinvestmentou4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7264/patronageox6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1966/perthvsadelaidexy3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[crazyknightsfan]

Supply-led demand, fucking yeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwww

[crazyknightsfan]

I'm just saying that, as a transport planner, I'd always use 30k per bay as my back of the envelope cost per bay.

Have you got a reliable cite for 30k?

I was happy to use $17k as an approximation but $30k certainly helsp strengthen my argument.

PM if you would prefer.

[Matt B]

Have you got a reliable cite for 30k?

I was happy to use $17k as an approximation but $30k certainly helsp strengthen my argument.

PM if you would prefer.

I'll dig you up some figures if I can, but most are based on projects as constructed. There is a annual guide to construction costs in WA and they use about 20k I think... but yeah that is pretty bare bones with no constraints. You could get up to $45k per bay if there are other factors... or if it is a small space....

I think that when you take turning space, circulation etc in to consideration multi storey car parks deliver 1 bay per 20-25m2 of floorspace.

[crazyknightsfan]

^^

It would be much appreciated, thanks Matt.