Discussion | Politics

[docker]

ok, move on from the last election and lets look forward

[samboy]

SMOKE AND MIRRORS

[desperaterobots]

great start to the thread there samboy...

Anyone else think this rags to riches story for the Nationals is totally fucked up?

Democracy doesn't work.

[samboy]

great start to the thread there samboy...

Anyone else think this rags to riches story for the Nationals is totally fucked up?

Democracy doesn't work.


hahaha well I accidentally clicked on the wrong thread (let me edit it to something nicer). Democracy is only as good as the public. i.e RETARDED.

[dcmcd]

Anyone else think this rags to riches story for the Nationals is totally f*d up?

Democracy doesn't work.

Well, the fact that a party which got only 4% of the vote is having such a large influence says something.

[chrisaus]

shouldnt this be just in the news thread now considering elections are over 2 years away... anyways alp are going to be in oposition a long time now with ripper being the new leader. on other news nelson is gone turnball in

[samboy]

TURNBULL - Libs new Leader.

It will be interesting to see opinion polls shortly. My bet is on a very sharp rise. Not that it could have sunk any lower.

[desperaterobots]

Turnbull is so... smarmy. I'm sure that will play well with Liberal voters. :P

[aaronaugi1]

Turnbull is so... smarmy. I'm sure that will play well with Liberal voters. :P

He will attract a shed load more support than Dr 9% thats for sure. My not win them the election, but as we've seen from last week you only need to be in office of a shambled party for a day to win an election.

[Scraperfan]

smart move to hold off for 10 months, let brendon go through all the bullshit. turnball owes him big time.

same thing will happen with labor, ripper will be the caretaker leader then someone more worthy will come in perhaps a year or 2 from now.

[ryan79]

Bring Gallop back!

[Ipggi]

Bring Gallop back!

He is enjoy life over east, and is quite busy by the looks of it...

http://www.nhhrc.org.au/

[chrisaus]

im think im suffering the same depression as him its called the WA SYNDROME

[Homeroids]

Turnbull is the Republic guy, right? If so, my gawd, the Republic might get bi-partisan support.

[ryan79]

im think im suffering the same depression as him its called the WA SYNDROME

Beat me to it.

I don't blame Gallop for leaving. Yet another intelligent decent West Aussie forced out.

[Auxodium]

Yes he was behind the woeful Yes republican vote in 1999... i hated that model and still do with a passion



WA ALP's best period in government would have to be the time when Gallop was in charge... Carps just well... thought that by doing nothing would be a shoe in

i honestly thought that when Gallop left the ALP would lose the election or hold on with like 1 or 2 seats

[Dilaz89]

I'd disagree with you but won't post why becuase I'd be labelled an ALP cock sucker by some on this forum.

[Perth4life]

i would vote for turnbull in the next fed election if he supported things such as a republic, gay marriages etc.

It'd be awesome to see Gallop return to wa politics, wouldn't happen, but WA voters would definately vote him in over a Barnett govt.

[Scraperfan]

i just read his biography on the news site, what a smart guy! I couldnt even imagine that kind of success.

he does talk through his teeth though which is a bit weird.

[jackso]

Gallop or Turnbull?

[Scraperfan]

Both smart, but i was referring to turnbull.

[WAuzzie]

p4l u care about gay marrige .. ??

[Perth4life]

well i don't like christianity, and specifically there input in society/laws etc.

Plus i consider myself quite a liberal person, so yeh i would like to see it be allowed.

[ryan79]

I personally wouldn't see it as a vote grabber for me.

Much more important things to vote for.

[jackso]

No its definantly not a vote grabber at the moment, but amongst the younger generatiosn it may become a bigger issue. But I think its important.
ohh God christian democrats and family first would have heart attacks.

I agree with you p4l, I hate the role christianity has on Austrlian politics and society in general. Its like we use christainity as a moral compass.
FFS, if someone started a serious Islamic party, and gained a seat there would be uproar.
I have been educated in a christian schools for the last 12 years and have been fed the BS long enough for me to disregard it. And that goes for all religion, not just christanity.

[PerthCity]

well i don't like christianity,

Why?

Do you also dislike Buddhism and Judaism?

[ryan79]

I hate any religion that attempts to brain wash people and interfere with their lives. This obviously includes christianity. Sad thing is the underlying message of christianity is completely lost on organised religion. They couldn't be getting it anymore wrong. I feel the same for Islam but don't know it well enough to make that statement.

Keep it to yourself and out of politics.

[perthgazer]

Somebody posted on here reccomending to read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, it was probably city thing lol

But anyway I bought it, and read it, and its absolutely fantastic

The case against religion and god is so good, and really exposes how religion manipulates and brainwashes

I've always thought these things, but never been able to articulate it as well as Dawkins does

[ryan79]

I don't need a book to tell me that, its obvious and its everywhere.

Maybe when I was younger I needed re-assurance.

I'm sure its an entertaining read though.

[Perth4life]

Why?

Do you also dislike Buddhism and Judaism?

Nope, because religions like Islam and Judaism are too involved in their cultures and there way of life, there is no way you could change that.

Buddhism is nothing like the other 3 major religions, Buddhists don't declare holy war's much like the Catholics and Muslims have, and well the jewish kicked a stack of Muslims out of Israel so they could have their own holy land...

Christianity is full of wackjobs that have no relevance in todays society, a good example is Sarah(?) Palin in america, and many other christian organisations that try to affect someones choice to abort their marriage or someone's right to legally wed another person of the same sex.. why should the church get a say in this? If everyone was christian i believe then yes it'd be appropriate, half of the born christians probably don't even agree with the bullshit the respective churches spit out.

Infact religion plays a minor part in Australian's lives, so why the fuck should it influence our laws?

[Scraperfan]

watch some speeches by richard dawkins on youtube if you dont have time to read the book. my favourite quote by him.

"i contest that we are all atheists. some of us just go one god futher."

i mean, nobody would seriously give the old greek gods any cred. my hope is that jesus will eventually befall the same fate as zeus, athena, mars and thor.

can you imagine anyone trying to say they were real nowadays?

[ryan79]

Anyway guys this is for politics. Don't let beachres hijack this thread into another religious shitfight.

Its not worth it, we all know where we stand.

[Perth4life]

its religions affect on politics, i think it's appropriate.

[city_thing]

Perthgazer, I think it was me that recommended it, I seem to remember Scraperfan and I talking about it and promoting it.

In regards to gay marriage, it's not going to win any votes, more loose votes. It will never be something a political party announces as an election issue, they'll avoid it and try to remain as vague as they can on it. In the current climate, it's going to loose more votes than it'll gain; the people against it are far more likely to vote with it in mind than the people that support it (who are probably only half arsed about it).

For me, there's far more important issues than gay marriage, like the economy, environment etc etc - gay marriage would be great but I'm not going to fool myself. There's more important things than a piece of paper and a sexless, loveless marriage.

[Auxodium]

im genuinley concerned about the US credit crunch affecting building in WA... i have a feeling the 'boom' is under pressure to burst...

i mean on my visit i noticed how people were reacting and it didnt look good at all... it was all doom and gloom... i just hope that we keep it at arms reach at best...

anyone in the economic field care to enlighten me i would most welcome it :)

[aaronaugi1]

i mean on my visit

oh lordy.

[Auxodium]

i am trying to bring up a serious topic aaronaugi1... what is the problem with me mentioning it?

[Ipggi]

im genuinley concerned about the US credit crunch affecting building in WA... i have a feeling the 'boom' is under pressure to burst...

i mean on my visit i noticed how people were reacting and it didnt look good at all... it was all doom and gloom... i just hope that we keep it at arms reach at best...

anyone in the economic field care to enlighten me i would most welcome it :)

Lol .. to put bluntly Aux, in the last two weeks things have turned to shit in the US ..

* The US government had to bail out two of America's largest mortgage lenders (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) accounting for over half the US market.
* The US's fourth largest and one of it's oldest investment banks Lehman Brothers, filed for bankruptcy as there was no one willing to bail it out.
* Merrill Lynch, was taken over by Bank of America in a desperate fire sale.
* American International Group, a major insurer and one of the top 20 biggest companies in the world is on the verge of collapse and is expect to have a massive fire sale of assets.

There will definitely be more to come ... these things usually play out like dominoes.

[Scraperfan]

i saw a graph forecast of sub-prime mortgage interest rate honeymoon periods.

apparently the largest spike in the higher interest rates kicking in will be september 2009. that means a huge amount of foreclosures in the last quarter of next year.

[PerthCity]

Anyway guys this is for politics. Don't let beachres hijack this thread into another religious shitfight.

Well actually it was P4L who made the inflammatory remark about Christianity.


Christianity is full of wackjobs that have no relevance in todays society,

Are you serious? How many Christians are there in the world? And your best example of one of them is some crazy American? Did Christianity even originate from America? I don't see why when someone attempts to discredit Christianity they'll always point to America. I'm not that surprised though, Australians don't know much else apart from what happens in America/the UK.

[jackso]

Luckily for us we will be less affected than some other nations..
Yes, the australian financial index's are down 40% from the last peak, but that is nothing compared to what the US and UK have experienced.
Growth in India and China isnt going to slow anytime soon.
As long as we have those two, the effects of the US credit crisis will be softened in Australia.
If things start to fall, government and RBA policy will change to reflect that. Interest rates are already tipped to fall again, which will encourage spending/borrowing which will keep us bouyant.
Depneding on where our financers have sourced their funds from, I dont think we will be affected too much..

[Citystyle]

Why?

Do you also dislike Buddhism and Judaism?

Well i can answer that.

Judaism is worse than Christianity and Buddhism is over rated as a peace loving religion, it's doctrine fly in the face of what Buddha stood for. Though i prefer Buddhism because they don't believe in a metaphysical universe and all at the same time, down play the importance of materialism.

[Matt B]

P4L didn't actually just say anything inflammatory about Christianity... just about the Wackjobs in it.

But P4L as an atheist I know plenty of great Christians... they are ok. Sure there is a radical fringe but there are radical fringe atheists too (although they can at least sleep happy knowing they are correct!) (joke) (well sorta joke)...

[Citystyle]

watch some speeches by richard dawkins on youtube if you dont have time to read the book. my favourite quote by him.

"i contest that we are all atheists. some of us just go one god futher."

i mean, nobody would seriously give the old greek gods any cred. my hope is that jesus will eventually befall the same fate as zeus, athena, mars and thor.

can you imagine anyone trying to say they were real nowadays?

Nobody believes in Lilith (Adams First Wife) or Asherah (Gods Wife) in the Christian word despite it being a well known folk story in the middle east, instead we discarded that and build the myth of Mary up around Catholicism. The fact it is contentious is true reflection of how religion is a fable taken far to seriously.

The truth is far more amusing, Abrahamic tales a true mythology with brilliant ritual meaning that existed in numerous cultures around the Mediterranean, North Africa and the Middle East.

Monogamist Single Deity religion is a crude corruption and evolution of what essential was the control of though, culture and social practice. Gods divine ideas have been engineered through time.

You can't believe in a personal God while being Liberal. Nor can you believe in the conservative social normative that are derived through the bible and be Liberal. To do so requires a serious amount of double think and ideological confusion.

Personally i have become to admire conservative methodology in conjunction with cultural empiricism and Kant's pragmatism. But this conservatism is not related to social conservatism in any form.

[Perth4life]

Well actually it was P4L who made the inflammatory remark about Christianity.



Are you serious? How many Christians are there in the world? And your best example of one of them is some crazy American? Did Christianity even originate from America? I don't see why when someone attempts to discredit Christianity they'll always point to America. I'm not that surprised though, Australians don't know much else apart from what happens in America/the UK.

Ok then, there is heeps of Christian whack jobs in Europe.. take the pope for example!

I am a catholic by baptism, i went to catholic schools etc. so i know the religion quite well, so it has nothing to do with the US or the UK.

I no longer consider myself catholic/christian and feel quite strongly about it.

[Auxodium]

Lol .. to put bluntly Aux, in the last two weeks things have turned to shit in the US ..

* The US government had to bail out two of America's largest mortgage lenders (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) accounting for over half the US market.
* The US's fourth largest and one of it's oldest investment banks Lehman Brothers, filed for bankruptcy as there was no one willing to bail it out.
* Merrill Lynch, was taken over by Bank of America in a desperate fire sale.
* American International Group, a major insurer and one of the top 20 biggest companies in the world is on the verge of collapse and is expect to have a massive fire sale of assets.

There will definitely be more to come ... these things usually play out like dominoes.

oh dear heard about fannie mae and co but that is serious news about Merrill Lynch... how would that affect WA's 'boom'?

as for AIG... that could also have a major impact with sporting team Manchester UNited being a major sponsor.

[Ipggi]

World markets are all tied in. AIG are a multinational company, and the world's biggest insurer (with 2 million customers in Australia). If it collapsed it would effect markets not just in the US, but also the markets in Paris, London (Europe) and Hong Kong (Asia), essentially the world market.

AIG also underwrites travel insurance for a string of corporate partners including ANZ, National Australia Bank, Jetstar and Diner's Club. AIG Australia is also the underwriter for some of Australia’s biggest super funds, including Retail Employees Superannuation Trust, which boasts 1.7 million members, and Health Super.

Mining stocks are themselves down, BHP for example is down 25% off it's May 2008 price.

As for WA's boom, iron ore is really what beings much of the export growth money. China, Korea and Japan consume much of the world's iron ore, all three also happen to be part of the top 4 list of WA's export destinations. The US is the 1st or 2nd largest export destination for all three countries. While it might not have a direct link to WA, there would probably be ripple effects.

[samboy]

Speaking of Christianity - (Bordering on SPAM but bear with me)

I was baptised Christian however I don't really believe in religion and as some of you have said there's plenty of examples of religion (not just christianity) abusing their position for political gain etc

I was in Sydney when the pope was there and initially thought to myself what a load of crap this is.

BUT

The city was crawling with thousands of teenagers/young adults. Typically when you have about a fifth of that crowd in the city on a weekend there's always, violence, agro, tension etc however with this mob it was such a nice atmosphere. People and crowds were behaving like normal people should. They seemed to be very happy and genuinely satisfied. The entire city had a nice vibe about it (compare that to a crowd of a couple of hundred people in Nbridge for example).
Which begs the question. Yeah sure may be they're somewhat 'brainwashed' but if the outcome is what I saw in Sydney that week then perhaps it's not such a bad thing.
Let's face it everyone's brainwashed somehow by the media, govts, parents, peer groups etc so if in this case it makes you act like a 'human being' should (albeit a little misguided) then I'll take that any day.
Just an example - I'm not generalising.

[ryan79]

Well actually it was P4L who made the inflammatory remark about Christianity.


Because he said he didn't like christianity that is not a signal to hijack a thread and hardly inflammatory.

I don't like Oranges - wanna further hijack the thread?

[Scraperfan]

oranges are real though. nobody made them up.

oh i forgot actually. according to some, god made oranges and he made them a bright colour so humans could see them to pick and eat easily.

[ryan79]

Thats whats sad. Why defend such a fable?

If anything defend againt something realy like racism or something.

There are actually real issues in this world and people cry because someone says they don't like bedtime stories.

Makes my brain hurt.

[PerthCity]

Let's face it everyone's brainwashed somehow by the media, govts, parents, peer groups etc so if in this case it makes you act like a 'human being' should (albeit a little misguided) then I'll take that any day.


This has been my main support for religion in modern times. Most religious people follow a good and honest life, so I don't see why others get so upset about?

Yeah, ryan, the stories may not be true. Does it really matter? Australia and other nations believe in alot of other 'fables ' too. Past sporting heroes, political figures etc. which have been glorified over time.

If you had religious influences in your life ryan, you may not have been a thief when you were younger. :lol:

[Scraperfan]

there is a lot of good work done by religious organisations.

i just wish that the good deeds, good morals etc could be adopted and carried out without the need to link that to the belief in the supernatural. people get all that strength and goodness from within themselves, they just think it comes from "god".

when people say prayers, its really just positive self re-enforcement. so it has benefit, it just goes under a false pretense. thats the point being made, at least by me.

im not doubting any possible positives. i just prefer realism.

[samboy]

Thats whats sad. Why defend such a fable?

If anything defend againt something realy like racism or something.

There are actually real issues in this world and people cry because someone says they don't like bedtime stories.

Makes my brain hurt.


But some people like bed-time stories. Just because it's not real it's not necessarily a bad thing.

I don't believe in it and I'm definitely against the 'dodgy', 'violent', 'whack job' etc aspects of it however the majority is not like that. Yeah sure it's a fable but most people want to believe in something to find meaning in their lives.

I'm very pragmatic (my guess you too) and you want to believe in something that makes sense and factual whereas others don't.

Everyone's striving for a 'good' and 'happy' life and try to find it though different avenues, religion being one option.

(I'm not even going to dignify P4L's comments. He's entitled to it but it's based on his VERY limited life experiences so far and it's mostly based on what he's probably seen on TV. I won't argue with that and let him be)

[docker]

ENOUGH with the religious stuff!

[samboy]

what's the big deal? This is a politics thread right? Religion is politics. As long as it doesn't descend into outright abuse then I don't see a problem with it.

[Scraperfan]

this thread should and can be used for anything related to elections, politicians, gay rights, human rights, black rights and religion.

what needs to be monitored, is abusive language, racism, put downs or disrespect of others beliefs.

be a democratic mod docker, freedom of speech.

not a "we love the leader" he will tell us what to say commy style.

[docker]

i can see it going that way, so i am just preventing it. especially the way some of yous are saying that religion is crap and so are people who follow it so scraps, yo specificly tone it down, but you can continue discussing it as long as you tone down some of your language.

anyway

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=709316&page=3

Barnett has ministry all but in place
17th September 2008, 6:00 WST

Premier-elect Colin Barnett handed Nationals leader Brendon Grylls a first draft of his Cabinet yesterday and is expected to take a final version to today’s first party room meeting of Liberals since winning office.

Key portfolios such as Treasurer (Troy Buswell), Attorney-General, Electoral Affairs and Justice (Christian Porter) and Health and Indigenous Affairs (Kim Hames) are settled.

But party powerbroker and Upper House MP Peter Collier, who has been shadow education minister since entering Parliament in 2005, may have to move aside to accommodate Liberal Independent Liz Constable.

Mr Barnett is believed to have baulked at Dr Constable as Speaker and wants her to be a minister. Education is thought to be the Churchlands Independent’s second preference.

In that case, one solution being considered yesterday was to give Mr Collier the senior Police portfolio and make Hillarys MP Rob Johnson Minister for Corrective Services.

The Nationals are expected to pick up three or four ministries with Mr Grylls taking Regional Development, his deputy Terry Waldron getting Sport and Recreation and Upper House MP Wendy Duncan taking the third spot, possibly Agriculture, though she now represents the Mining and Pastoral Region.

Mr Grylls said yesterday that he was happy with the outcome.

“Our position was royalties for regions so we started on the basis of one Cabinet post and then said to Colin, if you see fit that more members of our team should be included, make a suggestion. We talked about it and we’re going from there but that’s his decision,” Mr Grylls said.

In a surprise move, long-time Colin Barnett supporter John Day is expected to become Planning and Infrastructure Minister ahead of Liberal deputy leader in the Upper House Simon O’Brien, who had the portfolio in Opposition but performed poorly in the election campaign.

Veteran MLC Norman Moore, who will become Leader of the Government in the Legislative Council, is expected to become Minister for Resources while his colleague Robyn McSweeney will remain in the Child Protection portfolio.

The Liberals promised a Minister for Mental Health during the campaign and MLC Helen Morton will fill the role.

South Perth MP John McGrath, who resigned from the front bench at the start of the election campaign after his contacts with lobbyist Brian Burke were exposed by the Corruption and Crime Commission, is not expected to be in the new ministry.

Mr Grylls said negotiations with Mr Barnett on other key elements of the power-sharing deal had continued yesterday with the Nationals pushing for a legislative framework for their royalties for the regions investment fund.

ROBERT TAYLOR


http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=98122

Ripper refuses to give Barnett ALP Speaker
17th September 2008, 6:15 WST

Newly elected Opposition Leader Eric Ripper yesterday slammed the door on Labor supplying the Speaker to the new Parliament.

Premier-elect Colin Barnett had raised the prospect of a Labor Speaker given the narrow three-vote margin he will take into Government. He said on Monday he would discuss the prospect of a Labor Speaker once the ALP elected a leader.

Mr Barnett will rely on four Nationals and former Labor minister, Kalgoorlie Independent John Bowler, to maintain his advantage over Labor in the Parliament.

The provision of a Speaker from the Government side will reduce Mr Barnett’s margin to two. It would then only take Mr Bowler and one National to vote against the Government for it to be defeated.

Under those circumstances, Mr Ripper said yesterday he did not think it appropriate that Labor should provide Mr Barnett with a Speaker.

“It would not be the intention of Labor to offer a Labor Speaker. People run for parliamentary positions only with authority of caucus, that’s how we work,” Mr Ripper said.

“I don’t think that anyone in caucus would want to go against the wishes of caucus on this matter. Obviously this is not something that has been discussed by caucus but my own view would be that Labor is not providing the Speaker.”

Labor MP John Quigley has been mentioned as a possible candidate for Speaker but Mr Ripper made it clear that any ALP member accepting the job from Mr Barnett would no longer be in the party.

“They would have to have approval from caucus to accept the job,” Mr Ripper said.

“I don’t think approval would be given and if they acted outside the rules of caucus there would be the usual consequences for that.”

The Speaker of the Legislative Assembly can cast a vote in the case of a deadlock, which means that the Barnett Government could provide the Speaker and still pass legislation with the aid of the Nationals and two Independent Liberals if Mr Bowler voted with Labor.

“It’s difficult but it’s possible for government to operate in these circumstances,” Mr Ripper said.

“We won’t be a petty Opposition, we’ll be a strong Opposition, but we won’t be petty. But I think providing the Speaker would be a step beyond what our constituency would expect of us.”

Mr Barnett is understood to be reluctant to make prominent Independent Dr Liz Constable Speaker, preferring her as a Cabinet minister, which narrows the choice to Nationals MP Grant Woodhams or Murray-Wellington Liberal Murray Cowper.

ROBERT TAYLOR
STATE POLITICAL EDITOR

[samboy]

So does anyone know anything about John Day?

[docker]

he from kalamunda, so he is my sitting member, seems alright, and i would presume would be for any development restrictions in the hills area.

[Scraperfan]

So a nationals minister for sport and recreation? Now there definately goes the stadium.

[Bump]

Why? He loves sport.

[Auxodium]

oranges are real though. nobody made them up.

oh i forgot actually. according to some, god made oranges and he made them a bright colour so humans could see them to pick and eat easily.

SF oranges are not real! LOL they are made up :P

So does anyone know anything about John Day?

Yeah Health minister in the court government... total muppet


Thanks ipggi for the replies for the US credit crunch, it has helped me understand it even further now... still scary thought though.

a bit of an extreme question though, do you think the rate the US credit crunch is going we could be heading for another great depression? :o

[ryan79]

This has been my main support for religion in modern times. Most religious people follow a good and honest life, so I don't see why others get so upset about?

Yeah, ryan, the stories may not be true. Does it really matter? Australia and other nations believe in alot of other 'fables ' too. Past sporting heroes, political figures etc. which have been glorified over time.

If you had religious influences in your life ryan, you may not have been a thief when you were younger. :lol:

No, if I had money I would not have been a thief when I was younger.

Perhaps if young people were engaged more in our soceity and it was less conservative I may not have been a thief.

Theres plenty "lack of" things to blame. Although I was hardly a theif. When I was old enough to work I worked and never stole again (from memory)

Anyway, I loathe organised religion that brainwashes people. Now I'm not saying I loathe all religion and I'm not saying all religion brainwashes people but it is certainly out there in abundance. Religion or spirituality should be a personal thing not something ingrained into society or politics or in an institution.

Basically, organised religion take the space reserved for spirituality in humans and controls them, brainwashes them. Its easier to be told and believe someone elses answers rather than seek our own.

What I am basically saying is keep religion out of politics. I think thats fair.

[ryan79]

But some people like bed-time stories. Just because it's not real it's not necessarily a bad thing.

I don't believe in it and I'm definitely against the 'dodgy', 'violent', 'whack job' etc aspects of it however the majority is not like that. Yeah sure it's a fable but most people want to believe in something to find meaning in their lives.

I'm very pragmatic (my guess you too) and you want to believe in something that makes sense and factual whereas others don't.

Everyone's striving for a 'good' and 'happy' life and try to find it though different avenues, religion being one option.

(I'm not even going to dignify P4L's comments. He's entitled to it but it's based on his VERY limited life experiences so far and it's mostly based on what he's probably seen on TV. I won't argue with that and let him be)

Yeah but people should keep it themselves. Stay out of politics.

Really, there is no point these days. Media seriously controls the masses and if conservatives or religious folk own the media they control those masses.

The few of us with brains and ability to think for ourselves are just lost on todays society and the rest who don't buy into it end up causing anti-social behaviour.

[samboy]

Yeah but people should keep it themselves. Stay out of politics.

Really, there is no point these days. Media seriously controls the masses and if conservatives or religious folk own the media they control those masses.

The few of us with brains and ability to think for ourselves are just lost on today's society and the rest who don't buy into it end up causing anti-social behaviour.

I don't think so. Being in the minority (in the way you describe above) can actually be a good thing. It allows you more freedom and generally better oportunities to do what you want to do without having to compete with the masses.
Generally speaking if most people are going one way (based on media hype, religion, TT, general consensus, so called experts views etc etc) it just means that the path is clearer for ya to go the other way ;)

If everyone was as smart as you then you'll be in real trouble.

[Ipggi]

a bit of an extreme question though, do you think the rate the US credit crunch is going we could be heading for another great depression? :o

The world economy is a lot different to that of the 1920s. For one it is much more complex and diversified, with many more players, industries and markets. Saying that though ...

Oh and the US government just loaned $85 billion dollars to AIG in exchange for an 80% stake. This would have been unheard of just a year ago.


The United States is mired in a "once-in-a century" financial crisis which is now more than likely to spark a recession, former Federal Reserve chief Alan Greenspan said Sunday.

The talismanic ex-central banker said that the crisis was the worst he had seen in his career, still had a long way to go and would continue to effect home prices in the United States.

"First of all, let's recognize that this is a once-in-a-half-century, probably once-in-a-century type of event," Greenspan said on ABC's "This Week."

Asked whether the crisis, which has seen the US government step in to bail out mortgage giants Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, was the worst of his career, Greenspan replied "Oh, by far."

"There's no question that this is in the process of outstripping anything I've seen, and it still is not resolved and it still has a way to go," Greenspan said.

"And indeed, it will continue to be a corrosive force until the price of homes in the United States stabilizes.

"That will induce a series of events around the globe which will stabilize the system."

[Scraperfan]

my advice to the usa is to being home your troops and spend the trillion dollars a year the green energy sector.

would provide the new basis that their economy needs.

[Ipggi]

my advice to the usa is to being home your troops and spend the trillion dollars a year the green energy sector.

would provide the new basis that their economy needs.

The total US financial cost of the war in Iraq since 2003 has been $554 billion, though it has been given funding for $653 billion or so. The war in Afghanistan has been allocated $200 billion. How that works out to a trillion a year I don't know ?

[samboy]

a trillion is pretty close to 853 billion isn't it?

[Ipggi]

Per year though?

[perthgazer]

And that's just the direct military spending on the wars

It's probably double including the cost of borrowing money to pay for the war, lost productivity, higher oil prices and the cost of health care for veterans

[Scraperfan]

where did you get your facts from ippgi.

ive cant remember the exact sources but ive heard a trillion dollars, soooo many times by a lot of people.

ive heard a figure of 3 trillion before.

[Ipggi]

where did you get your facts from ippgi.

ive cant remember the exact sources but ive heard a trillion dollars, soooo many times by a lot of people.

ive heard a figure of 3 trillion before.

Yeah that is estimated total costs, not costs to date, done in 2006 or 2007 back when it was thought the US would remain in Iraq indefinitely. Things look different now there will be a new US president.

From June:
With the new funding, the total US budget for Iraq and Afghanistan now stands at more than $800bn.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7476744.stm

[Ipggi]

And that's just the direct military spending on the wars

It's probably double including the cost of borrowing money to pay for the war, lost productivity, higher oil prices and the cost of health care for veterans

Yes but there is also the fact the US military generally spends and develops domestically so, unlike us, military spending actually contributes to the domestic economy.

US 2005 military GDP was just over 4% which is significantly less then what it was has been during any period between 1941 - 1993.

[Auxodium]

where did you get your facts from ippgi.

ive cant remember the exact sources but ive heard a trillion dollars, soooo many times by a lot of people.

ive heard a figure of 3 trillion before.

they do run a multi trillion economy so maybe from there? either way that is a big move by the US government with AIG...

could it be a 'modern great depression'?

[Nate Von Longneck II]

Yes but there is also the fact the US military generally spends and develops domestically so, unlike us, military spending actually contributes to the domestic economy.

You seem to be mislead.

There is only a certain amount of money in an economy that exists to be spent, at any point in time.

If the military doesn't spend it, it will be used elsewhere.

If the money was spent on other more productive ventures/industries, the economy could benefit by a far greater scale than it would by using it for the military.

Hence, military spending actually makes the domestic economy worse off.

Here end the lesson.

[crazyknightsfan]

Opportunity Cost ;)

[ryan79]

You seem to be mislead.

There is only a certain amount of money in an economy that exists to be spent, at any point in time.

If the military doesn't spend it, it will be used elsewhere.

If the money was spent on other more productive ventures/industries, the economy could benefit by a far greater scale than it would by using it for the military.

Hence, military spending actually makes the domestic economy worse off.

Here end the lesson.

Unless of course your lining the pockets of your mates who own these companies making artillary for the defence force.

[Nate Von Longneck II]

Opportunity Cost ;)

Exactly!

[acc521]

Somebody posted on here reccomending to read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, it was probably city thing lol

But anyway I bought it, and read it, and its absolutely fantastic

The case against religion and god is so good, and really exposes how religion manipulates and brainwashes

I've always thought these things, but never been able to articulate it as well as Dawkins does

See if you can find the 2 part documentary he did last yearish. A great watch - very similar to the book.

[acc521]

I rate Turnbull quite highly - I think he is the right man to lead the libs to the next federal election.

As for Ripper, well the less said the better - he will be gone before next election for sure.

[Dilaz89]

A former dentist is now our planning minister. Anyone know what he's like?

[alvse]

You think Lisa can organise a evening with this minister for us too :lol:

[Matt B]

Was thinking on Turnbull as opposition leader. I just find it so refreshing that after 10 years of a Howard I hated and an ALP stumbling in opposition that we have a new government voted in with a wave of optimism, and an opposition leader who I would also be excited to see take the country forward were the libs to be elected in the forseeable future. My money would be on the Libs not winning the next election, but I hope Turnbull doesn't get turfed at the time.

Comparing these two to the premier of WA and the opposition leader is like chalk and cheese....

[Perth4life]

but Julie Bishop ! Argh

[aaronaugi1]

A former dentist is now our planning minister. Anyone know what he's like?

I was under the impression John Day was the incoming planning minister...ofcourse the portfolio has been/will be split under the Libs.

[jackso]

I think Bernatt ditched John Day because his performance during the campaign was not up to scratch or something...

[samboy]

I think Bernatt ditched John Day because his performance during the campaign was not up to scratch or something...


I don't know which one is the dentist (not that it matters) but acording to the article John Day will be the minister ahead of Simon Obrian (who performed poorly during the election)

[dallastexjr]

but Julie Bishop ! Argh

That bitch has a face like a smashed crab. Now that Howard's gone she is my most hated Liberal.

[aaronaugi1]

That bitch has a face like a smashed crab. Now that Howard's gone she is my most hated Liberal.

she would make a Keating-esk prime minister.

[Nate Von Longneck II]

That's an insult to Paul Keating, the only prime minister to mack on the queen.

Nobody macks on the queen.

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5475324,00.jpg

[Sanj]

what about calling mahathir a recalcitrant?

hehe keating definitely had his moments...

[samboy]

thanks to him I learned a new word at the time

[dallastexjr]

Keating had the best barbs. He still does. He was my favourite PM.

[ryan79]

That's an insult to Paul Keating, the only prime minister to mack on the queen.

Nobody macks on the queen.

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5475324,00.jpg

That was the most fucking ridiculous thing ever.

I fucking hate this shit that someone is so high and mighty they can't be touched. Fuck off!

[dallastexjr]

Ryan don't hold back. Say what you really think lol.

I was living in Britain when they mercilessly took to him like rabid dogs over this. It was all The Sun and other shit tabloids. The West would have been in its element

[Nate Von Longneck II]

Keating had the best barbs. He still does. He was my favourite PM.

Agree. He was a legend.

Keating On Costello: a "non-achieving dope".

On Howard: ""The little desiccated coconut is under pressure and he is attacking anything he can get his hands on"

On Wilson Tuckey: ""...You stupid foul-mouthed grub." "Shut up! Sit down and shut up, you pig."

On John Hewson: "(His performance) is like being flogged with a warm lettuce."

ON Andre Peacock: "...if this gutless spiv, and I refer to him as a gutless spiv..."

To a Uni student protesting about fees: "Go and get a job!"

...there are thousands more...

[ryan79]

Ryan don't hold back. Say what you really think lol.

I was living in Britain when they mercilessly took to him like rabid dogs over this. It was all The Sun and other shit tabloids. The West would have been in its element

It still shits me to this day, as if you can't tell :lol:

He was just being polite, what anyone gentleman would do to any female when showing them around etc.

Its not he grabbed her arse or something.

[Homeroids]

I moved recent religious spam (admittently reignited by myself) to the spam thread.

Why? Because it was the right thing to do. :)

[TRS-80]

The United States is mired in a "once-in-a century" financial crisis which is now more than likely to spark a recession, former Federal Reserve chief Alan Greenspan said Sunday.

The talismanic ex-central banker said that the crisis was the worst he had seen in his career, still had a long way to go and would continue to effect home prices in the United States.

"First of all, let's recognize that this is a once-in-a-half-century, probably once-in-a-century type of event," Greenspan said on ABC's "This Week."

Asked whether the crisis, which has seen the US government step in to bail out mortgage giants Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, was the worst of his career, Greenspan replied "Oh, by far."

"There's no question that this is in the process of outstripping anything I've seen, and it still is not resolved and it still has a way to go," Greenspan said.

"And indeed, it will continue to be a corrosive force until the price of homes in the United States stabilizes.

Fuck Greenspan, how much of this is his fault?

[PerthCity]

I fucking hate this shit that someone is so high and mighty they can't be touched. Fuck off!

I don't think its appropriate at all. Keating didn't do it to be 'polite' as you say, he did it to be disrespectful to the Queen. A person doesn't need to be grabbed while being introduced to others.

I can't believe you haven't realised what his motives were in that!! :nuts:

[Bonga]

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=98441

Colin Barnett announces his Cabinet
18th September 2008, 12:30 WST

Premier-elect Colin Barnett has announced his Cabinet.

Kim Hames will be Mr Barnett’s deputy and take the health and indigenous affairs portfolios.

The Cabinet will consist of three Liberals, three Nationals and one independent. Mr Barnett will be sworn in as WA's 29th Premier on Tuesday.

"This is a new and exciting chapter in WA's political history," Mr Barnett said in a media statement.

"West Australians voted for a change in government and a new way forward."

Norman Moore will become the Minister for Mines and Petroleum, Fisheries, Electoral Affairs and leader of the Government in the Legislative Council.

Christian Porter will become the Attorney-General and Minister for Corrective Services.

National Party leader Brendon Grylls will become Minister for Regional Development and Lands.

Liberal independent Liz Constable will take the education portfolio as well as tourism and women's interests.

Peter Collier, who was the shadow education minister since entering State Parliament in 2005, will become the Minister for Energy and Training.

Former leader of the State Opposition Troy Buswell, who stepped aside from the leadership role after a string of scandals, will become State Treasurer and cover the commerce portfolio, which includes small business, trade, consumer protection and industrial relations, as well as science and innovation and housing and works.

Hillarys MLA Rob Johnson will become Minister for Police, Emergency Services, Road Safety and Leader of the House in the Legislative Assembly.

National MP Terry Waldron will take the sport and recreation, and racing portfolios, while colleague Wendy Duncan missed out on a Cabinet berth.

Simon O'Brien missed out on the key planning portfolio, which instead went to John Day. However, Mr O'Brien wil become the Minister for Transport.

Mr Day will also become Minister for Culture and the Arts.

Robyn McSweeney has been appointed Minister for Child Protection, Community Services, Senior and Volunteering.

Graham Jacobs will take the water and mental health portfolios, while Bunbury MLA John Castrilli will become the Minister for Local Government, Heritage, Citizenship and Multi-Cultural Interests.

The agriculture and forrestry portfolios will go to Terry Redman, while Donna Faragher will become Minister for Environment and Youth.

PERTH
ALEISHA PREEDY

[perthgazer]

OMFG They split Planning and Transport!!!!! IDIOTS!

[Dilaz89]

you dumb cunt, colin.

[aaronaugi1]

OMFG They split Planning and Transport!!!!! IDIOTS!

They were always going to do that.

Wasn't that how it was under Court?

Gives them reason to develop Freeways without planning considerations. At least under the last ministerial system there was a tendency for planning to dictate transport and in a sense, throw a lot of weight behind TOD and POD.

[Bonga]

OMFG They split Planning and Transport!!!!! IDIOTS!
Yeah, it will be interesting to hear the rationale behind this...

I suppose it isn't surprising, given that they had this arrangement in the shadow cabinet as well. But I didn't expect them to do this for the actual ministry.

I wonder if this means that DPI will be split back into two separate departments, and what effects this would have?

[aaronaugi1]

"Liberal independent Liz Constable will take the education portfolio as well as tourism and women's interests"

How appropriate for the WA Julie Bishop equivilent....and a National as Sports and Rec Minister! GOD!

[crazyknightsfan]

OMFG They split Planning and Transport!!!!! IDIOTS!

you dumb cunt, colin.

Seconded.

[Bonga]

Wasn't that how it was under Court?
Yeah, Transport and Planning were merged into DPI by the Gallop government. From memory, there were a few other portfolios merged together in the name of 'integration,' although I can't remember which specifically.

I think most other states still have the two departments separate, so this isn't anything radical. It just seems like an unnecessary step backwards.

That said, I don't know what effect it will have in practice, but I doubt there'll be a sudden complete 'disconnection' between planning and transport decision-making.

[Sanj]

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=98441

Colin Barnett announces his Cabinet
18th September 2008, 12:30 WST



Former leader of the State Opposition Troy Buswell, who stepped aside from the leadership role after a string of scandals, will become State Treasurer and cover the commerce portfolio, which includes small business, trade, consumer protection and industrial relations, as well as science and innovation and housing and works.




Anyone else here thinks that is a bit much for 1 person to handle? Im not asking for more Buswell or Libs bashing, i think it is a valid question irrespective of which party is in power.

[aaronaugi1]

Anyone else here thinks that is a bit much for 1 person to handle? Im not asking for more Buswell or Libs bashing, i think it is a valid question irrespective of which party is in power.

You'd think so. Julia Gillar seems to handle a tonne of far more important roles. I guess a lot of them are linked though.

[samboy]

ok they've split planning and transport. May I make a novel suggestion here?

Does that preclude them from talking to each other whilst making decisions? Also perhaps it's because the 2 are large enough portfolios to warrant additional ministers (I remember mcteernan used to be regularly snowed under) and possibly achieve more in each field.

Again we can take an objective approach and see what they're going to do with both OR we can whine like bitches.

I'm sure many on here have pretty much resigned to the latter but hey it will only make you more agitated and possibly counterproductive.

[aaronaugi1]

ok they've split planning and transport. May I make a novel suggestion here?

Does that preclude them from talking to each other whilst making decisions? Also perhaps it's because the 2 are large enough portfolios to warrant additional ministers (I remember mcteernan used to be regularly snowed under) and possibly achieve more in each field.

Again we can take an objective approach and see what they're going to do with both OR we can whine like bitches.

I'm sure many on here have pretty much resigned to the latter but hey it will only make you more agitated and possibly counterproductive.

I cant recall when the previous planning minister was ever "snowed under"...Even when taking on a number of new planning policies, Network City, major planning developments and multiple major infrastructure projects.

[perthgazer]

Samboy can you please quit your condescending attitude, not only it is annoying it's bordering on rude

Planning and Transport are absolutely intertwined, they go together - you can't have one without the other.

[Bonga]

Does that preclude them from talking to each other whilst making decisions?
The way I see it, any major planning decisions tend to require consultation from a pretty broad range of other departments anyway, so there's (hopefully!) no reason to expect that planning and transport decisions will suddenly become isolated from one another.

But perhaps I'm just looking on the bright side. :) As you said, we really need to wait and see what effect it will have.

Also perhaps it's because the 2 are large enough portfolios to warrant additional ministers (I remember mcteernan used to be regularly snowed under) and possibly achieve more in each field.
I suspect that this is one major factor, although it is inconsistent with giving Buswell what seems like a pretty major workload.

[samboy]

I cant recall when the previous planning minister was ever "snowed under"...Even when taking on a number of new planning policies, Network City, major planning developments and multiple major infrastructure projects.

I wasn't implying that any of us had any insight into her day to day workload (it's funny how you think you might know this) but it was more of a reflection of how much progress the govt was able to make in a certain period of time.
Either way that wasn't my point (and it's been debated extensively) I was merely suggesting that having 2 ministers does not automatically imply the 2 portfolios will be totally disjoint.

[Bonga]

I cant recall when the previous planning minister was ever "snowed under"...Even when taking on a number of new planning policies, Network City, major planning developments and multiple major infrastructure projects.
My understanding is that the DPI portfolio was quite enormous, and also required "assistant ministers" to deal with less strategic, more administrative stuff like Licensing (which was part of the former Transport portfolio).

I'm pretty sure MacTiernan did admit once or twice to having a very large workload, although I don't know whether this affected her ability to get the job done.

[aaronaugi1]

I wasn't implying that any of us had any insight into her day to day workload (it's funny how you think you might know this) but it was more of a reflection of how much progress the govt was able to make in a certain period of time.
Either way that wasn't my point (and it's been debated extensively) I was merely suggesting that having 2 ministers does not automatically imply the 2 portfolios will be totally disjoint.

I wasn't refering to a particular person or group of persons workload. Rather to the state ability to find resources to begin works in such a tight economic time. Let alone tame inflation.

[Sanj]

Samboy can you please quit your condescending attitude, not only it is annoying it's bordering on rude

Planning and Transport are absolutely intertwined, they go together - you can't have one without the other.

samboy might have a condescending tone at times, but in this case if u look beyond the tone, i think he has a fair point.

i didnt vote for the libs, but now that we are stuck with them lets see what they come up with before we all work ourselves up into a frenzy.


having said that though, perhaps yrself or one of the other planning experts would be able to explain the reasons why planning and transport should be done by the same person? im not being sarcastic here, is a serious question as planning issues are not my forte. is it so we try and avoid some of the silly sprawl that barnett seems to favour - ie if planning was done with transport in mind that we could avoid this?

[samboy]

Samboy can you please quit your condescending attitude, not only it is annoying it's bordering on rude

Planning and Transport are absolutely intertwined, they go together - you can't have one without the other.

GET OVER YOURSELF PG. Many things are intertwined but it doesn't mean the 2 depts can not work together. That's all I was saying.

Here's condescending for ya - Most of these bshit arguments are coming from those who have just left school and have had very little or no experience in the corporate or political world and claim to know everything.

The arguments on here have really made me think twice about the credibility and viability of FP as many (not all) of its supporters seem to be one track minded with very little objectivity. I'm never going to be involved in FP so I won't offer you any advice however there are others on here such as Sanj who seem to be willing to contribute as well as having a much smarter and balanced approach to things. I suggest you take some advice from him if you don't want to be dismissed as a 'bunch of kids' by those in 'power'.

[perthgazer]

Thanks for another condescending post.

Political feelings aside, any fool in the planning industry, if not the general community would realise splitting planning and transport is stupid.

A lot of us here expressed that it was stupid, now you've turned it out as if we are being hysterical or that it's a reflection of peoples political leanings.

It is a STUPID decision, just as it would be if any other government decided to do the same.

[Sanj]

having said that though, perhaps yrself or one of the other planning experts would be able to explain the reasons why planning and transport should be done by the same person? im not being sarcastic here, is a serious question as planning issues are not my forte. is it so we try and avoid some of the silly sprawl that barnett seems to favour - ie if planning was done with transport in mind that we could avoid this?

before this turns into a shitfight, can someone pls answer this question?

[aaronaugi1]

GET OVER YOURSELF PG. Many things are intertwined but it doesn't mean the 2 depts can not work together. That's all I was saying.



I think the arguement is that, in this case, one department is better than two. Not for workloads sake. Not for funding sake. Not for a greater knowledge pool.

The fact is if we have one person, or one person steering the ship we are more likely to arrive at something that is interconnected. IMO, two department just promotes more chance of ad hoc development.

[repi]

I don't think its appropriate at all. Keating didn't do it to be 'polite' as you say, he did it to be disrespectful to the Queen. A person doesn't need to be grabbed while being introduced to others.

I can't believe you haven't realised what his motives were in that!! :nuts:

Oh don't be such a conspiracy theorist. If Keating wanted to be disrespectful he would have done it in a much more open, upfront and, dare I say it, entertaining way.

It was a mistake on his part, but a very minor one.

[samboy]

Great - Here's the Chairman of FP justifying an argument by saying it's STUPID!!

That inspires me with a lot of confidence because in the real world you can dismiss anything by saying it's STUPID and people will take you seriously.

you'll go very far .....

and YES I am being condescending now (and the previous post) to make a point.

[Auxodium]

on the issue of the DPI... maybe under 8 years of it being as it is the liberal government wont break it up as it will or probably would disrupt many government workers and processes already in place?

[samboy]

before this turns into a shitfight, can someone pls answer this question?


BECAUSE IT"S STUPID!!! get it??

[Dilaz89]

exactly, PG.

Landuse and TP are intertwined as both have a direct relationship and influence one another. This move can be seen by some as going back to the past whereby planning was to segregate different land uses and cluster 'like-uses' hence why everything in Perth is segregated.

It's a bad move and is just going to make descisions harder and longer.

What happend to the Liberal party's ideology of small government? A very real criticism of the former government would be that it was too large and got too beaurocratic as a result. Given all these extra ministries, I can't see this situation getting any better.

[Homeroids]

Come on guys - remember this is a forum. No infliction with the words, very easy to misconstrue things said.

We can have a healthy debate on the for's and against's of the transport and planning portfolio's being split.

I can see pluses and minuses for each.

[aaronaugi1]

Great - Here's the Chairman of FP justifying an argument by saying it's STUPID!!


Dont bring that into this. At this stage it is his personal opinion. Not that of FP's.

[Sanj]

dilaz, fair enough, i though that is what the reason might be. someone here was saying recently that it is further from joondalup to mandurah than it is from brisbane to the gold coast, which to me is absolutely crazy.

In that case i can see the sense of it not being split as i get a feeling that perhaps some of the stupidity re perths sprawl could have been avoided if planning and transport were thought of together.

Has it been split before?

[crazyknightsfan]

^^

Short answer is that land use and transport are inexplicably intertwined. Land use planning is basically constant reiteration between land use considerations and transport considerations and you go back and forth until you find the right compromise. It's stupid that infrastructure and land use planning can even be considered as separate because they are all part of the same process - you can't consider land use planning without some consideration of the infrastructure needs.

[Homeroids]

Dont bring that into this. At this stage it is his personal opinion. Not that of FP's.


I agree with that sentiment :)

[repi]

OMFG They split Planning and Transport!!!!! IDIOTS!

And you accuse Samboy of being condescending and rude?!

Come on, presumably you both have fair points, but at this stage he's articulated his argument far better than you have.

We really have no information as to how this division of labour will work - for example, perhaps the Planning minister will retain responsibility for the future transport planning and the Transport minister will instead focus on day-to-day issues such as licensing, car registration, paying the train drivers enough that they don't go on strike, and road maintenance.

We simply don't know yet.

[samboy]

Come on guys - remember this is a forum. No infliction with the words, very easy to misconstrue things said.

We can have a healthy debate on the for's and against's of the transport and planning portfolio's being split.

I can see pluses and minuses for each.

100% agree

[Homeroids]

^^

Short answer is that land use and transport are inexplicably intertwined. Land use planning is basically constant reiteration between land use considerations and transport considerations and you go back and forth until you find the right compromise. It's stupid that infrastructure and land use planning can even be considered as separate because they are all part of the same process - you can't consider land use planning without some consideration of the infrastructure needs.

With that comment, it makes a pretty sound logical argument against splitting them. I'm more for not splitting them. It really doesn't make sense. Hopefully we will get some satisfactory answer from Barnett as to why he has done this.

[Sanj]

^^

Short answer is that land use and transport are inexplicably intertwined. Land use planning is basically constant reiteration between land use considerations and transport considerations and you go back and forth until you find the right compromise. It's stupid that infrastructure and land use planning can even be considered as separate because they are all part of the same process - you can't consider land use planning without some consideration of the infrastructure needs.

fair enough, that makes sense.

[Dilaz89]

satisfactory answers and Colin Barnett are like mixing oil and water.

See stadium comments & waterfront comments.

[perthgazer]

Exactly, I'm entitled to an opinion, and don't need to supply an essay response to satisfy samboy when I might be busy with something else. Dilaz has explained it nice and simply.

Stop parading around looking down on people because they are younger than you and like to get fired up. Whether or not you admit, you have been constantly implying people on here are immature because they aren't graced with your life experiences.

It's a very unwelcome attitude, some people have even said that to me, so show some respect to your fellow forumers.

[crazyknightsfan]

^^

Homer, if, like some have suggested, the transport Minister will simply look after process things like project delivery and licensing etc. then I support it. The planning and project identification/development (not delivery) all needs to be under the Planning ministry and department.

Unfortunately, the cynic in me suggests that the Transport Minister will need to do some pork-barelling to keep the whingers happy and that will involve committing to projects rather than the licensing stuff etc.

[samboy]

I'm pretty sure Victoria, queensland and NSW have different planning and transport ministers. Someone please correct me if I"m wrong.

[crazyknightsfan]

That's correct, Samboy, as does SA. Vic and NSW even has separate road and transport ministers and look how effective integrated transport and land use planning is here. :ohno:

[repi]

Exactly, I'm entitled to an opinion, and don't need to supply an essay response to satisfy samboy when I might be busy with something else. Dilaz has explained it nice and simply.

Stop parading around looking down on people because they are younger than you and like to get fired up. Whether or not you admit, you have been constantly implying people on here are immature because they aren't graced with your life experiences.

It's a very unwelcome attitude, some people have even said that to me, so show some respect to your fellow forumers.

At the time of Samboy's initial post, Dilaz's contribution to this debate had been "you dumb cunt, colin." While since then he and ckf have added further explanation, at the time there was no articulation of those views.

You have to admit, that appeared like a pretty immature response to an announcment about portfolio allocation (ie not even about policy).

[samboy]

Exactly, I'm entitled to an opinion, and don't need to supply an essay response to satisfy samboy when I might be busy with something else. Dilaz has explained it nice and simply.

Stop parading around looking down on people because they are younger than you and like to get fired up. Whether or not you admit, you have been constantly implying people on here are immature because they aren't graced with your life experiences.

It's a very unwelcome attitude, some people have even said that to me, so show some respect to your fellow forumers.

You were the one who went off at me for suggesting looking at both sides of the argument.
Anyway you are entitled to your own opinion but in the position that you are (and that's why I brought FP up) you won't be taken seriously (which I'm sure it's your intention) unless you have a balanced approach.

[Auxodium]

Samboy can you please quit your condescending attitude, not only it is annoying it's bordering on rude

Planning and Transport are absolutely intertwined, they go together - you can't have one without the other.

well he can say what he likes it is a forum afterall? yeah sure a tad crude but christ i have seen and read some stuff that is also inappropriate at times.

Samboy lol you must be having a bad day at work :P

[Dilaz89]

I'm pretty sure Victoria, queensland and NSW have different planning and transport ministers. Someone please correct me if I"m wrong.

look at how that scenario has turned out!

On the flipside, Victoria also has a PT minister and she has done absolutely nothing fix the desperate situation over there. Infact, I remeber her saying that she didn't even want the portfolio becuase it was "too hard".

A dedicated transport minister is more likely to far more likely to succumb to the all powerful roads lobby than one who's responsibility covers land use and how transport plays a role in that.

I will give it a chance though and glady eat my words if it turns out better than the integrated approach. History says otherwise though.

[Auxodium]

Some have turned out for the good some not so good?

id hardly call the DPI a success.... 1 rail project over 8 years isnt success

[samboy]

look at how that scenario has turned out!

again a mass generalisation implying planning and transport in Perth has turned out better than NSW, QLD and VIC.

May be it has and I'm living in the twilight zone.

[Dilaz89]

do you follow what happens over there?

[samboy]

do you follow what happens over there?

That wasn't an answer. But I didn't expect one anyway. And yes I have lived there (both Sydney and Melbourne for many years) and I can't say Perth is BETTER in every aspect.

If you read my posts carefully you'll notice that I am not supporting one over the other I am merely pointing out that there are for and against arguments relating to many of the current policies (well hypothetical policies anyway as nothing much has been announced yet) and asking some of you to be objective about it however you are hell bent on knocking everything the libs do (or you speculate they might do) and blindly supporting everything that the previous govt did.

This is not healthy but good luck to you.

[Dilaz89]

Samboy, this has nothing to do with the how good or how bad the previous governments integrated P&I portfolio was. This is about my own beleifs and thoughts based on 2 years of reasearch in the planning field. If you want to disagree with me on that, ok, but don't accuse me of political bias when it comes to this particular issue.

You imply a hell of a lot of things and I don't think that's healthy either.

[aaronaugi1]

you are hell bent on knocking everything the libs do (or you speculate they might do) and blindly supporting everything that the previous govt did.

This is not healthy but good luck to you.

do you think people do that for kicks? Theres obviously good motive. People dont develop political bias for nothing.

[Homeroids]

Zip it...

I got a whole lot shush from where that came from. Shush. zip it.

Dr. Evil

[chrisaus]

nah keep it going its funny beats the spam thread

[urbanwriter]

SUCH incredibly interesting developments today.

Yes. I am a tease.

[chrisaus]

how wanky was the 1/2 page in the west today how we broke the election headlines or somethign along those lines.

[Sanj]

come on UW, out with it son...

[Scraperfan]

ok, now im expecting something big in the paper tomorrow.

a certain pink leaning reporter is going to get an arse whooping if theres not.

...the police should know the blunt force trauma came from a typewriter.

[samboy]

SUCH incredibly interesting developments today.

Yes. I am a tease.

judging from that tone can we assume it's 'good' news?

[PerthSM]

Some have turned out for the good some not so good?

id hardly call the DPI a success.... 1 rail project over 8 years isnt success

To be fair, the Mandurah line had to be planned and legislated for pretty much from scratch (I doubt the Libs version would've contributed much). Also, there was the Thornlie Spur and the extension of the Clarkson line in addition to the upgrading of stations. Oh and putting the turn-back siding in at Daglish too.

The fact is, the Mandurah line was always going to take years to do from concept to completion. The fact it ran 6 months late isn't that bad when put into context. Ofcourse, they could've done better... but I can't honestly say that they did a bad job at all. It has completely revolutionized my day to day getting around.

Also, don't forget that transport commentators from Over East (from both the blogosphere and the mainstream media) hold Perth up as the 'way' to do PT. Seeing them waxing lyrical about how good we have it here makes me realize how good we do infact have it here.

If the Liberals manage to do better - or even as much, then I'll quite happily eat my words. But honestly, I'd put $100 on not a single rail being laid in the next 8 years (assuming they're in for two terms).

[Auxodium]

But then the ALP though "job done boys" and assumed they can sit back and do sweet FA. the rail is still poor and they should of announced another plan... dont care if it wont be built until 2010 just as long as they started straight away virtually on the 24th December 2007 when the SSR was opened on the 23rd!!!

the government looked as if it thought that people would thank them for 1 project and then keep them in...

i was disappointed that not many things under the ALP were achieved in an infrastructure perspective.

[Ipggi]

Are the number of lines really a fare judgment Aux? Maybe you should judge the worth by the kms of track laid. I mean the SSR involves about 70km's of twin track. That is more track then the Midland, Fremantle, Thornley and proposed Ellenbrook spir combined!

[ryan79]

SUCH incredibly interesting developments today.

Yes. I am a tease.

At least tell us when we will know. Tomorrow?

[ryan79]

But then the ALP though "job done boys" and assumed they can sit back and do sweet FA. the rail is still poor and they should of announced another plan... dont care if it wont be built until 2010 just as long as they started straight away virtually on the 24th December 2007 when the SSR was opened on the 23rd!!!

the government looked as if it thought that people would thank them for 1 project and then keep them in...

i was disappointed that not many things under the ALP were achieved in an infrastructure perspective.

And the fantastic Perth Arena is nothing?

[urbanwriter]

something we thought was dead is alive.
and something everyone else (but me) had forgotten about is actually alive and very well indeed and planning will start immediately.
and something everyone thought would never get up, might actually stand some kind of chance.
we live in interesting times.
page seven. that's all i'm saying.

[PerthSM]

But then the ALP though "job done boys" and assumed they can sit back and do sweet FA. the rail is still poor and they should of announced another plan... dont care if it wont be built until 2010 just as long as they started straight away virtually on the 24th December 2007 when the SSR was opened on the 23rd!!!

the government looked as if it thought that people would thank them for 1 project and then keep them in...

i was disappointed that not many things under the ALP were achieved in an infrastructure perspective.

Personally, I think they achieved quite a lot in 8 years. Just look at ANY western city and compare. I've lived in London - just look how long it's taken to get Crossrail off the ground. That's something that London DESPERATELY needs and yet has been in the works for 20+ years. It's finally been approved but construction still hasn't started. Their other major project - the East London Line extension has been similarly dogged. It's also considerably shorter in scope compared to the Mandurah line and is going to cost a hell of a lot more.

And it's hardly like they then sat around and did nothing. If Labor had stayed in I suspect we would've seen the Ellenbrook line and trams down South St and Subi/UWA - not to mention the autotram and increased ferry services.

If you can find any other city in Aus/US/UK that has done that, please inform me.

And whilst this may sound like i'm sucking the ALP's arse, I will concede that it could be a hell of a lot better. I'm just being realistic in saying that what has been achieved is actually quite impressive in context.

[Hossen27]

something we thought was dead is alive.
and something everyone else (but me) had forgotten about is actually alive and very well indeed and planning will start immediately.
and something everyone thought would never get up, might actually stand some kind of chance.
we live in interesting times.
page seven. that's all i'm saying.

oh my so not cool urban writer.. u cant do that too us.. the mind boggles with ideas right now.

[Sanj]

something we thought was dead is alive.
and something everyone else (but me) had forgotten about is actually alive and very well indeed and planning will start immediately.
and something everyone thought would never get up, might actually stand some kind of chance.
we live in interesting times.
page seven. that's all i'm saying.

update re waterfront? or maybe the PCC plans for the back of the concert hall and all that? what else could it be? the problem is soooo many things get proposed in perth and then never get done so it could be a whole host of things. damn u urbanwriter...

i bet u r sitting there with this evil grin on your face

:lol:

[ryan79]

something we thought was dead is alive.
and something everyone else (but me) had forgotten about is actually alive and very well indeed and planning will start immediately.
and something everyone thought would never get up, might actually stand some kind of chance.
we live in interesting times.
page seven. that's all i'm saying.

:lol: Bastard!

My mind is racing.

[PerthSM]

Don't think it's the waterfront...

*Thinks* Thornlie-Cockburn-Freo Connection???

[Hossen27]

something we thought was dead is alive.
and something everyone else (but me) had forgotten about is actually alive and very well indeed and planning will start immediately.
and something everyone thought would never get up, might actually stand some kind of chance.
we live in interesting times.
page seven. that's all i'm saying.

well he has written this in the politics thread.. though i doubt its politics related. though i could obviosly be wrong.

im taking a guess at the belmont park development..

[Ipggi]

Maybe its a hospital, hence why everyone has forgotten ..

Otherwise there is the Belmont, NB Link, Treasury .. hmmm museum ..

[Hossen27]

i doubt it will be anything that requires a government announcement as the recent change in government. so that puts almost all infratructure projects out of the equation.

[Homeroids]

Treasury building has to be in that somewhere. Bloody UW - teaser.

[samboy]

Treasury building has to be in that somewhere. Bloody UW - teaser.

me thinks the same (on both counts)
also there might be a chance for the WACA development.

[PerthSM]

Thinking about this... I'm leaning back towards NBLink...

[urbanwriter]

sorry i just thought you boys needed something to lift your spirits and i thought giving you reason to hope might do it.
don't get too excited though. we're talking infrastructure projects here... by and large.
and no one has actually hit on them yet, strangely.
first edition should be out around 10pm.

I hope you get excited at least. I did.

[Hossen27]

sorry i just thought you boys needed something to lift your spirits and i thought giving you reason to hope might do it.
don't get too excited though. we're talking infrastructure projects here... by and large.
and no one has actually hit on them yet, strangely.
first edition should be out around 10pm.

I hope you get excited at least. I did.

ill be picking one up on my way back from the airport tonight then. maybe it is the light rail making a comeback.

[PerthSM]

Hmm so it's plural then...

PT related perhaps?? Trams??

[BartBart]

This is where someone just lists all the stagnant, downgraded, forgotten projects and it's bound to be amongst them.

[ryan79]

Aha! The canal?

:)

[BartBart]

Aha! The canal?

:)

Sadly, you might not be far from the truth.

I guess the "I" word could be involved.

[PerthCity]

Hoping it's something to do with the airport, at least that would have nothing to do with the new Govt.

I doubt it though.

[acc521]

A canal to the airport with gondola rides?

[ryan79]

What was their plan, solid plan for:

Waterfront
NBLink
Stadium
Museum
PT - all they did was copy Labor but push it back further for Ellenbrook line

What exactly was the police, education, health plan? Keep RPH - wow thats hard. More police, more money for teachers, same crap populist policies. Nothing inspiring or concrete.

[ryan79]

Start building the stadium in 20 years time?

Not quite but at least they had a plan and we knew what it was.

Barney obviously had no plan, hence is I dunno what we're gonna do statement.

If you are running for government wouldn't you have an idea on what you were going to do with these things? And if he didn't why didn't he release his policy in the media? Why wait till elected and then go, I dunno.

This is what is pissing me off. The media did not press him on these issues, he had a cruisy run to the election by the media. Fuck they even left Buswell alone during the election. Makes me sick!

[Bonga]

Hmmm... the new Perth-Bunbury train springs to mind, although this article (http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=146&ContentID=57442) suggests that we won't hear anything about that until early next year.

Whoever gets a copy tonight better scan and share it. :)

[samboy]

But thats what pisses me off. They are in government when they had no plan or even real idea what was going on.

It just frustrates me they got elected still. Labors plan was known, these guys don't have a clue and have to start all over again. They obviously haven't been paying attention.

And no, I'm not over it yet. I need to see some plans and commitment before I get over it.


I partly agree with you Ryan but SF is right. It's not that they didn't have a plan they just didn't focus on Infrastructure which was probably a strategic move and instead went with the all so popular law an order angle and threw in a few other bits and pieces.
It would be ideal if all parties clearly lay out all their policies during every campaign so we can make an informed decision but doesn't seem to happen in Australian politics lately. They seem to focus on a few popular items and run with it.
Also don't forget that the NATS and their 700million only came into the picture after the campaign anyway and noone had factored that in.
Now it's a matter of doing the sums and weighing it up against the political aspects of it and start making announcements.
As to how long that would take I wouldn't have a clue but it is Perth after all and it all depends on the govt's priorities which is essentially based on their perception of the public's priorities.

[BartBart]

A canal to the airport with gondola rides?

With low rise along it's length and plenty of grassed areas to walk the dog and have picnics. We need more of that.

[ryan79]

Like I said, I'll wait and see and I really do hope I am pleasantly surprised and that I look like a fool for making such a fuss.

However my gut feel says I'm right.

[Dilaz89]

another far canal?

Things that come to mind might be Carpenters $1.1 billion PT plan that colin might take on because its a good idea and includes the marginal seats of wanneroo and west swan.

anyone remember how buswell wanted to move the port from freo to kwinana and renew the area? that could still be on the cars but i doubt if it's still their policy.

article i found on google

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=51502

[docker]

think about it, urbanwriter normally is involved in local council projects, the DPI or... i don't know, i can't think of anything else he writes about. :dunno:

even though i was seriously hoping it would be Belmont park, which two other people suggested, i would imagine someone else would cover it or it would be in the racing section.

and with the change of government i can't see it being a project related to the DPI, so it leads me to think of projects being done by a council;

Leederville redvelopment?
cathedral square?
perth performing arts precienct?
west perth town square?
although perhaps City west redevelopment

wait he said infrastruture...

he seems to be suggesting it is both a large scale project and tall,

ferris wheel?

wait it was pural :hmm:

fremantle ROAD BRIDGE?

is it the bridge?

[Dilaz89]

6% of the voting population consists of swinging voters who are likely to pay the most attention to the populist policies of law and order, health and education therefore the government/opposition need to win over them to win.

[Ipggi]

Reviewed August 2008
The State Government has approved the construction of a new bridge to replace the existing Fremantle Traffic Bridge and therefore provide a major safety boost for all users. The new bridge will have improved navigation spans, and maintenance costs will be reduced. The new bridge will be improved to meet current design standards for traffic lanes, pedestrian/bicycle facilities and crash barriers.

The proposed location of the new bridge is just upstream (east) of the location of the existing bridge.

The historical significance of the existing bridge in the community has been acknowledged throughout the consultation process. Retaining part of the existing bridge will acknowledge this with interpretive displays of the site's history, a boardwalk and a recreational fishing platform to be constructed.

Refurbishment of the existing bridge for use as a pedestrian/cyclist facility and constructing a new traffic bridge was considered as an option during the 2006 Community Engagement program. This option is not viable as it will significantly increase the cost of the project. Additionally, the issue of navigation clearance is critical, and the community considered safety as a major concern. Their preference to retain the existing bridge for pedestrian use does not resolve some of these safety concerns.

Main Roads will be undertaking a precurement strategy to further investigate a range of design options and costings. These will be further assessed by key stakeholders, and will ensure the ultimate design meets the safety, recreational, heritage, economic and social requirements. As yet, no timeframe has been given for construction.

The Fremantle Traffic Bridge was built in 1939 with an expected life of 40 years. It was upgraded in 1974 to extend its life for another 30 years. While the extended life has been reached, Main Roads is closely monitoring and inspecting the bridge.

The following information offers background details on the bridge, the options presented as part of the previous community engagement program, and other details. Note: these options have been previously assessed and considered.

http://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/internet/projects/urban/fremantle_traffic_bridge/default.asp

[docker]

me thinks the same (on both counts)
also there might be a chance for the WACA development.

i don't think so...

http://www.watoday.com.au/sport/election-delays-plans-for-new-waca-ground-20080918-4j5l.html

Election delays plans for new WACA Ground

* Tim Clarke
* September 18, 2008 - 6:52PM

As the future of the proposed $1.1 billon outdoor stadium hangs in the balance, WA cricket bosses are anxiously waiting to hear about the future of their own $250 million plan to redevelop the WACA ground.

The future of the WACA plan will become clearer tomorrow, when the bosses of WA cricket meet with the East Perth Redevelopment Authority to discuss the project's progress following the ousting of Alan Carpenter's Labor government.

The plans, developed in partnership with Ascot Capital Limited, propose to turn the WACA into a 25,000 capacity cricket venue alongside two residential towers, two office blocks and a retail and entertainment precinct.

But the WACA annual general meeting was told on Monday night that the hoped-for approval for the joint venture had been delayed by the outcome of the state election.

But WACA chairman David Williams remained optimistic about the prospects of the redevelopment going ahead.

"I am cautiously optimistic that our final submission will be approved in the next few months and then we will be able to take the proposal to WACA members for approval," Williams said.

"It is an exciting redevelopment that should secure cricket's future at the WACA ground for many years to come."

WACA chief executive Graeme Wood said he would be meeting with EPRA chief executive Tony Morgan tomorrow to get an idea of a new timeframe for the possibility of approval for the massive project

"There was a board meeting recently at EPRA and then it needed to go to the planning meeting, so obviously the election delayed the result and put us back a bit," Wood said.

"We are obviously waiting for confirmation from EPRA, we have not received that yet because of the hold up with the electoral process

"We will get an update on where we are at, and to find out what is happening and obviously the ministry has not been appointed yet.

"We are optimistically hoping we can get what we are after, to make it a viable proposition."

Also in doubt is $5 million the former state government promised the WACA towards the creation of a cricket academy at the University of Western Australia's Sports Park in Floreat, which was tied in with the redevelopment.

The WACA AGM heard that the once-struggling organisation now has cash at bank as of 30 June, 2008 of $14.1 million and recorded an operating surplus of $285,000 last year, despite a reduction in general distributions from Cricket Australia of $976,000.

"To operate as well as we have with such a huge reduction in distributions from Cricket Australia is a credit to the organisation and its team," Williams commented.

"We are well placed to have a successful year with some big matches at the WACA this summer including the Test Match versus South Africa, and two one day internationals against New Zealand and South Africa."

Another feature of the night was the unanimous decision of members to award honorary life membership of the WACA to former WA champion paceman Jo Angel, long term WACA cricket administrator Charles Fear and former state and national women's cricketer and administrator Coralie Towers.

Angel is best known as WA's leading wicket taker of all time and represented Western Australia in 105 Sheffield Shield/Pura Cup matches and 74 domestic one-day matches, as well as playing four tests and three one-day internationals.

[Scraperfan]

ryan,

if planning and infrastructure was more popular, labor would have been returned with an increas