New Street Station redevelopment

Previous threads:

Part 1 - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=243263
Part 2 - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=465286




Current site:

http://i37.tinypic.com/6icvwh.jpg




The redevelopment:

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/dailynews/2008/09/foreign_offices_architects_birmingham_new_street_designs_unveiled.html


http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/images/ForeignOfficeBrumBIG1_tcm23-1861326.jpg

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/images/ForeignOfficeBRUMBIG2_tcm23-1861330.jpg

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/images/ForeignOfficeBrumBIG4_tcm23-1861339.jpg

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/images/ForeignOfficeBrumBIG3_tcm23-1861335.jpg

Imagine that last one with the 2 towers :cool:




Extra large renderings:


http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x13/mikeyfox23/Buildings/View_from_South_West.jpg



http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x13/mikeyfox23/Buildings/Eastern_view_from_Bullring_night1.jpg



http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x13/mikeyfox23/Buildings/Southern_view.jpg[/QUOTE]

It weren't me guv'nor - honest!

Thanks Will :)

Waht is that big grey building currently in the middle of the roof?? That will have to go?

I think they may be stockrooms for the shops in the Palisades. When I used to work in one as a student they were on the roof.

It's where JJB Sports was. Some other sport shop is there now.

Is the void on the non Bullring side been covered up. That would make a great square in front of the new station?

As far as we are aware, no it is staying. Just the park towards the Bullring to make way for the extended concourse.

Anyway want to have a go at editing the aerial shot above to show how it might look?

One of the voids facing the Bullring will be covered, and the vehcile access will be from Hill St.

The flythrough on here looks good :)

http://www.advantagewm.co.uk/news-media-events%5Cnews%5C2008%5C09/new-start-for-new-street-unveiled.aspx

the change is all cosmetic though, still gonna have problems with their only being 4 tracks leading into the station

The flythrough on here looks good :)

http://www.advantagewm.co.uk/news-media-events%5Cnews%5C2008%5C09/new-start-for-new-street-unveiled.aspx

A real cathedral of a space on the interior - Fantastic!

A real cathedral of a space on the interior - Fantastic!:
Megastation, I really do hope this design can work for £600 million and two towers would be the icing on the cake:cheers:

Couple of New Street articles


Byrne says New Street will be big enough for Birmingham
Sep 22 2008 By Jonathan Walker, Political Editor

The Minister for the West Midlands has ruled out proposals for a brand new railway station in Birmingham, arguing that New Street Station will remain the heart of the rail network for up to 30 years.

Liam Byrne rejected the findings of an inquiry by the Commons Transport Committee which described the planned £600 million makeover of New Street as a cosmetic project which would not solve Birmingham’s lack of rail capacity.

The committee’s report re-opened the debate about alternative schemes, such as a new “Grand Central” station which could potentially serve high speed rail lines between London, Birmingham and the North.

This has the support of lobby group Railfuture and politicians including Lord Snape, the Black Country peer.

But Mr Byrne, MP for Birmingham Hodge Hill, said New Street should be seen in the context of a range of improvements to the region’s transport infrastructure.

Asked if Grand Central should be part of these improvements, he said: “I don’t think so. As part of a massive programme of investment in infrastructure across the region, New Street remains the right answer for the next two or three decades.

“I don’t think the transport plans today are the end of history as far as West Midlands transport goes. Of course, we need to keep things under review.

“But New Street got the whole region behind t because people could see how it was the most important single project, but it was also going to unlock a whole range of other projects across the region.”

He added: “The point about transport in the Midlands is that there isn’t any silver bullet.”

Other transport improvements include expanding Birmingham Airport, expanding the Black Country metro, improving public transport in North Staffordshire and encouraging the use of low-carbon transport, he said.

“I think the Transport Select Committee got a little bit hung up on New Street in and of itself, and I think they failed to appreciate the wider ambitions of the wholescale transformation of the West Midlands transport network.”

Asked for his response to claims by some Labour MPs that the party should consider choosing a new leader, he said: “I think that Gordon Brown is one of the four or five statesmen globally who has the experience and intellectual firepower to help steer the world’s economy through the next 18 months.

“These are big challenges, they need a big leader to take them on, and there is nobody better qualified.

If you talk to policy makers in America, in India or in China where I was last week, Gordon brown is somebody who has the most extraordinary respect on the world stage.

And people genuinely look to his leadership internationally to provide a way forward.

It is Gordon Brown who is setting the agenda on the global stage with practical ideas, borne of experience, of how we reform the financial system.”

He condemned Labour rebels who have been trying to spark a leadership contest.

“I think what was frustrating for ordinary members of the party last week is that you have a bunch of organisers without a candidate and a bunch of intellectuals without an argument.

“It was the sheer futility of what they did that was especially exasperating.

“Events of last week showed there is no serious alternative leadership candidate, and at the end of the week you saw Gordon exhibit the most determined and decisive action to help underpin the UK financial services system.”

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/2008/09/22/byrne-says-new-street-will-be-big-enough-for-birmingham-65233-21877544/


New Street judge hits back at Gateway 'whingers'
Sep 22 2008 By Paul Dale, Public Affairs Editor

The chairman of the judging panel appointed to recruit an architect to design Birmingham’s refurbished New Street Station has hit out at “whingers” who question whether the £600 million project will be a success.


Sir Bernard Zissman, writing the Birmingham Post's Agenda column likened the criticism to fears raised about construction of the International Convention Centre in the 1980s, which many people believed would be a “white elephant”.

Sir Bernard, who chaired the council economic development committee during the planning stages of the ICC, said: “They said who on earth would come to Birmingham for events and meetings? Well, they do come and Symphony Hall is the envy of the world.

“I am therefore not at all surprised to have heard the whingeing and criticism of the future New Street Station because Birmingham loves robust debate, they enjoy an argument and a row, and it seems to me that we really do that rather well.”

Sir Bernard takes a sideswipe at politicians: “For years there has been argument, debate, battles and even the swapping of insults between political egos about what New Street station would look like and how it would benefit passengers and visitors alike.”

It was announced last week that the Gateway partners – Network Rail, Birmingham City Council, Advantage West Midlands and Centro – had accepted the design panel’s recommendation to appoint Foreign Office Architects to design the new-look station.

Initial drawings show a sweeping reflective-metal and glass structure with huge “cathedral-like” atriums where passengers will browse in shops while waiting for trains.

Sir Bernard said the panel’s “breath was taken away” by the talent of architects shortlisted for New Street, whose work included the Berlin main train station, the International Airport at Carrasco in Uruguay, the civic Atrium and Foundation Square development in Melbourne, the Yokohama International Terminal in Japan and the high speed complex in Florence.

He added: “We liked Foreign Office Architect’s approach to developing pedestrian flows across the centre of the city, from north to south and from east to west. We liked their design which will result in a reflection of Birmingham’s sky – with the clouds, the reflection of the trains and the reflection of the people, by day as well as by night.

We thought they shared our vision and understanding about what New Street was all about. Stations need today to be more than an interchange for trains – essential as that is – they need to be at the hub of the city life, a place to meet and greet, to eat and drink, to enjoy and experience.”

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/2008/09/22/new-street-judge-hits-back-at-gateway-whingers-65233-21874223/

from Transport Briefing


Birmingham New Street

Foreign Office Architects has won the design contest for the £600m Birmingham New Street Gateway project.

The practice's concept designs show the station clad in shimmering, reflective metal. Foreign Office Architects beat 47 rivals, including many of the world's top practices, to win the international competition and land the prestigious project.

Reflective sheets of carefully crafted and finished metal will cover the outside of the station and will incorporate three high tech digital displays highlighting the entrances to New Street. Passengers will move through a re-designed atrium area designed to flood the station with light.

The £600m Gateway project, a joint scheme between Birmingham City Council, Network Rail, regeneration body Advantage West Midlands and passenger transport executive Centro, will double passenger capacity and create a concourse that is three-and–a-half times bigger than at present and enclosed by a giant light-filled atrium. Platforms will be made more accessible with the installation of 42 new escalators and 14 lifts. Better links for pedestrians to and through the station will be provided by creating eight new entrances.

The concept designs will now be developed by a team led by Network Rail which will include Foreign Office Architects, WS Atkins as lead consultant and Mace as delivery partner.


http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/strategyandprojects.php?id=2185

Birmingham critics will be impressed by New Street's new look
Sep 22 2008 Agenda

Sir Bernard Zissman, who chaired the judging panel to choose the winning design for the refurbishment of New Street Station, says the winning scheme will glorify Birmingham city centre.


Amongst the turmoil of the financial markets which saw the demise of Lehman Brothers, the near collapse of banking legends Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley as well as the gobbling up of the Bank of Scotland and Halifax empire by the black horse of Lloyds Bank, there emerged a bright light in the future development of Birmingham.

For years there has been argument, debate, battles and even the swapping of insults between political egos about what New Street station would look like and how it would benefit passengers and visitors alike.

Last week, The Birmingham Post revealed the result of an architectural competition which started with 48 applicants and ended with six international architects presenting their ideas and experience to a panel here in Birmingham.

That panel met back in April and studied, questioned and debated with all six of the practices the merits of their schemes and how and if they would fit the demanding brief which had been set.

The panel of dedicated and experienced representatives of the funding partners all had a common objective but in reaching that objective were seeking no less than 117 requirements, features and outcomes.


Advantage West Midlands was looking for a wider economic benefit for their £100 million contribution, Birmingham City Council wanted a building which will sit in the middle of the city centre and demonstrate the excitement and vitality of an international city whilst Network Rail and Centro were seeking a hub to their transport ambitions which would provide their passengers with an improved and satisfying travel experience. All were looking for value for money.

Our panel received the benefit of professional experience from Christophe Egret, appointed as the architect adviser by the RIBA and whose task was to challenge the competing architects regarding design and material practicalities and to offer a view as to professional competence.

I suppose my job as chairman was simple. It was to listen, to contribute and to steer the panel – hopefully – to a unanimous decision.

What I was anxious to avoid was a member who voted against and forever and a day proclaim we’d made the wrong choice ! At the end of the day it is the passengers, the visitors and the people of Birmingham who will decide if we got it right. The panel approached the challenge constructively and with common purpose and by the time our discussions had ended we did indeed achieve a common recommendation, that Foreign Office Architects would design the new New Street Station.

We had been presented with a world tour of an amazing array of schemes from the finalists.

As we looked and inspected the Berlin main train station, the International Airport at Carrasco in Uruguay, the civic Atrium and Foundation Square development in Melbourne, the Yokohama International Terminal in Japan and the high speed complex in Florence, our breath was taken away by the sheer talent and innovative ideas we were being asked to judge.

There was no easy outright winner. These outstanding and globally recognised architects had come to Birmingham to present their ideas as to how best to build a new station and how best to glorify the centre of our city.

We had adopted a scoring matrix which addressed the principal objectives of all the partners involved. We considered the response to the brief they had been given, the innovation of the design, the affordability and ongoing maintenance, the contribution to sustainability and the ability of the winning practice to work with the rest of the project team.

I set myself four questions which I wanted answered in straight language I could understand – no professional jargon – One, did it make the impact on the Birmingham skyline which I believed our citizens were seeking ? Two, would it benefit passengers and visitors alike? Three, could it be afforded and four would it work? At the end of the day it is this last objective which is the key to any major development because if it fails to meet its principal objective, however good it looks, it simply is the wrong answer.

We liked Foreign Office Architect’s approach to developing pedestrian flows across the centre of the city, from north to south and from east to west. We liked their design which will result in a reflection of Birmingham’s sky – with the clouds, the reflection of the trains and the reflection of the people, by day as well as by night.

We thought they shared our vision and understanding about what New Street station was all about. Stations need today to be more than an interchange for trains – essential as that is – they need to be at the hub of the city life, a place to meet and greet, to eat and drink, to enjoy and experience.

Just look at Union Station in Washington and Grand Central Station in New York, they are on every visitor’s ‘must do’ list. So it will be with New Street. It’s OK for the panel and judges, even the politicians to have a vision and an exciting ambition, at the end of the day it is for the people of Birmingham to judge that decision.

I suppose very few of us are granted the privilege of being involved with such an exciting and forward looking project which hopefully can really make a difference to the city in which we live and the people who use the facility. I have been lucky enough to be involved in two former major projects for Birmingham, having led the teams to develop the International Convention Centre and Symphony Hall and more recently Millennium Point.

I am therefore not at all surprised to have heard the whingeing and criticism of the future New Street Station because Birmingham loves robust debate, they enjoy an argument and a row, and it seems to me that we really do that rather well ! It’s always been like that, even Joseph Chamberlain had a huge row about the development of Corporation Street. There is no harm in sensible and reasoned discussion, we can just as well be wrong as right but doing nothing is never an answer.

In the case of the ICC they said it would be a white elephant and who on earth would come to Birmingham for events and meetings – well they do come and Symphony Hall is the envy of the world. In the case of Millennium Point they said no-one would go there and now one million people visit and use the facility.

It has been a huge privilege to chair this panel and I thank each of them for their time, their commitment and their desire to make the right decision for the railway, the environment and our city.

I hope our decision will in time bring to an end the tired and outdated image of New Street station and the continuing, and justifiable, complaints about its disappointing welcome to visitors to our city and will be greeted as a an exciting and dramatic development of which all of us, those who design it, those who build it, those who pay for it can be proud and most of all a station pride in which the people of Birmingham can be proud.


http://www.birminghampost.net/comment/birmingham-columnists/agenda/2008/09/22/birmingham-critics-will-be-impressed-by-new-street-s-new-look-65233-21874225/

Thanks for those Feltip.

A few interesting quotes....

The great Sir Bernard Zissman on the ICC: "They said who on earth would come to Birmingham for events and meetings?"
And boy is he right. The doubters didn't half whinge but have been strangely silent since....

And on New St "We liked their design which will result in a reflection of Birmingham’s sky – with the clouds, the reflection of the trains and the reflection of the people, by day as well as by night."
Like the sound of that. :)

The not so great Liam Byrne: “The point about transport in the Midlands is that there isn’t any.........” - mischievous I know :lol:

And on Grand Central : "New Street remains the right answer for the next two or three decades."
Isn't that the point the engineers are making? In 20 - 30 years we need Grand Central........Duuurrrrrr!

Spring supplier conference for £600m Birmingham New Street redevelopment
15:06 23 Sep 2008

The consortium behind the £600m redevelopment of Birmingham New Street will hold a potential supplier conference in spring 2009 for contractors who want to get on board the scheme.

Network Rail project director Martin Chambers told CJ that the conference would showcase the project, which will be split up into 45 packages, to contractors that had registered expressions of interest in the scheme.

The station redevelopment will be led by an integrated project team called the Gateway Management Team, made up of Network Rail, Mace, Atkins and Foreign Office Architects.

Mace's appointment to the team, which is still to be officially confirmed, follows a gruelling 'beauty parade' assessment of contractors' partnering credentials. Balfour Beatty and Carillion were also thought to have been pitching for the role.

Chambers said the decision to use an integrated project team was "a further iteration of what others have done, for example BAA at Heathrow Terminal 5, or Defence Estates on its prime contracts".

It is not yet clear whether Network Rail plans to adopt a similar approach to other upcoming high-profile station redevelopments, such as the proposed £1bn revamp of London Euston, where Network Rail will work in tandem with British Land.

"This approach works here [Birmingham], but we will look at each of our managed stations individually. It isn't a one-size-fits-all solution," Chambers said.

Work at Birmingham New Street is due to start on site in the third-quarter of 2009.

Work on the first phase is due for completion in 2012. The second phase will be completed in 2014 or 2015.

Details of the project came as designs for the new station were unveiled this week by Foreign Office Architects (pictured above).

Capacity at the station will be lifted by 150% with 42 new escalators and 14 new lifts, while the concourse will be increased in size by more than four times.


http://www.contractjournal.com/Articles/2008/09/23/61251/spring-supplier-conference-for-600m-birmingham-new-street-redevelopment.html

Sorry, but this project can't be compared to the ICC at all. Back then, the critics were apparently asking why so many people would want to come to Birmingham for conferences. With New Street, we're saying that so many people want to come to Birmingham (not to mention all those passing through on the rail network) and even more will in the future, that the station isn't big enough! It's actually the exact opposite of the ICC argument.

No-one is questioning the need for something to be done about railway stations in Birmingham, as they might have questioned the need for new conference facilities. No one is suggested money shouldn't be spent on transport in Birmingham. What they are worried about it that the plans do nothing to address the issue of rail capacity at the station.

Note that all the press releases talk about increasing capacity by 150% (so that means 2.5x the current capacity). It should be remembered that this is passenger numbers, not number of trains. Where are all those passengers going to go?

One final point is that (even ignoring the limited track capacity on approach to the station) even the best architects in the world are going to be limited in what they can do when they are stuck with most of a 60s building that they can't demolish due to a stupid shopping centre stuck on top of it. Covering the outside in reflective metal and making a relatively small hole in the middle of the roof for an atrium can only do so much.

I disagree. The station will be pared back to its original structure which, seeing as it was designed by government engineers, is probably very suitable for the job, over-designed so can take some battering/moulding, and would still compare to a modern engineering solution. So given the original skeleton of the building (which includes the shopping centre, but which might not be a shopping centre by the time it happens given the CPO proceedings), a good architect can come up with a great solution. In some ways it makes it easier because the architect has to start from somewhere rather than to to-ing and fro-ing between architect and engineer to get the structure right.

What I do want to know is what happens to the Stephenson St end, the 'white' entrance and the MSCP. I am concerned that the visuals are over-simplified OR they could be an indication of a collective will to address the bits no-one wants to talk about.

I quite agree Bio.

There are some great proposals now, but they raise a who new set of questions.

Also, it's nice to see Contract Journal picking up on the story. Typically Building magazine's e-bulletins have completely ignored the story; they are always quick on the negative stories about Birmingham (even resorting to making up their own) so it's not surprising that they have ignored this.

I nearly wet myself when Foxy posted this:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x13/mikeyfox23/Buildings/Southern_view.jpg

Looks like they are enclosing the service road in the distance... but that horrible wall is still there.

A good solution without the towers, so even better with :happy:

Looks like they are enclosing the service road in the distance... but that horrible wall is still there.

Bear in mind that the wall wouldn't be part of the brief for this

I'm slightly worried about how the Navigation St bridges will look compared against the new buildings, though a clean up would probably do wonders

It shouldn't be too difficult I would imagine.

That white bridge across the platforms has to go though. I'll do it myself.

Personally I'd like to see concrete proposals for how to ease rail congestion in and out of New Street. Where will the extra, longer platforms for HS2 go and where will extra tracks be provided?

I presume this has all been thought about seeing as the people behind New Street are so confident of it's future success.

I look forward to seeing these :yes:

Does anyone know when the tower element of the project will be released :)

Personally I'd like to see concrete proposals for how to ease rail congestion in and out of New Street. Where will the extra, longer platforms for HS2 go and where will extra tracks be provided?

I presume this has all been thought about seeing as the people behind New Street are so confident of it's future success.

I look forward to seeing these :yes:

I think you ought to drop it now Salif - New St is happening whether you like it or not.

FWIW a nice shiny new station for HS2 will be required - and wouldn't that be nice for Brum? :)

I think you ought to drop it now Salif - New St is happening whether you like it or not.

FWIW a nice shiny new station for HS2 will be required - and wouldn't that be nice for Brum? :)

It's a fair question, New Street is the option they're going with so presumably all problems have been catered for. Nothing wrong with wanting to know what will happen with the railway infrastructure.

Not an argument against New Street, just a genuine question of interest.

No HS2 for new street, the lines in and out will be remaining as it is now. End of argument.

HS2 was proposed to run into moor street wasn't it?
I thought they were going to expand Moor street?

Proposals for a station in Eastside, one at Moor Street and another where the wholesale markets are now.

Some better quality pictures of ones that have been posted before.

http://static.worldarchitecturenews.com/news_images/10401_1_nss2big.jpg

http://static.worldarchitecturenews.com/news_images/10401_2_nss1big.jpg

http://static.worldarchitecturenews.com/news_images/10401_3_nss3big.jpg

http://static.worldarchitecturenews.com/news_images/10401_4_nss4big.jpg

It looks like a shopping centre. If it didn't have a huge fuck off LED screen saying BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET STATION there'd be no reason for anyone to suspect in was a station. So basically a 21st century version of the old one.

Well, it is technically a shopping centre! And it is technically still the old station as the changes are mostly cosmetic! ;)

The towers look f***ing massive on that first pic! Are they still going to be around the 120m mark?

130-180m.

Just for comparison as i think its Foreign Office Architects too.

Euston Concourse design for redevelopment of Euston.
http://www.railnews.co.uk/img/fullsize/news00380.jpg

Why not remove the floor in the middle, leaving only a galleria/mezzanine type thing to create an atrium. That would result in the light from the roof being able to reach the platforms.

^^ That is what they are doing. Big void going to be created above the unpaid concourse. It wont, however go down to platform level, unless you want no platforms.

HS2 was proposed to run into moor street wasn't it?
I thought they were going to expand Moor street?

Probably the most workable idea, just a shame it doesn't cater for through journies to Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury and cross-country HS2 services. Although I suppose you build a station at a level lower then New Street and build a cross city tunnel.

It's a fair question, New Street is the option they're going with so presumably all problems have been catered for. Nothing wrong with wanting to know what will happen with the railway infrastructure.

Not an argument against New Street, just a genuine question of interest.

You're just being mischievous!

I we need an HS2 station then why not build a brand new one wherever it is needed. Is it not crazy mixing suburban, regional, national and international services in the same station with, perhaps, 1 million people a week?

Let's have 2 lovely stations :banana:

It looks like a shopping centre. If it didn't have a huge fuck off LED screen saying BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET STATION there'd be no reason for anyone to suspect in was a station. So basically a 21st century version of the old one.

BUT you do have to ask yourself "what does a station look like?"

Victorian stations were designed to resemble cathedrals, and created lots of space for steam and smoke to dissipate, light to enter, whereas now our needs are completely different - comfort, quick movements.

Personally I couldn't tell you what a modern station should look like but in terms of a striking building (which is what this needs to be to make it recognisable, representative and navigable), I think it ticks the boxes :)

Originally Posted by jayo
HS2 was proposed to run into moor street wasn't it?
I thought they were going to expand Moor street?

Probably the most workable idea, just a shame it doesn't cater for through journies to Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury and cross-country HS2 services. Although I suppose you build a station at a level lower then New Street and build a cross city tunnel.

Guys none of the HS2 stations (at least in the HS line anounced by the Tory's) will be in city centre. I'm guessing either they'll use Birmingham International or a brand new Parkway station somewhere in South-East Birmingham. The same more or less applies for Manchester.

Originally Posted by i_like_concrete
It looks like a shopping centre. If it didn't have a huge fuck off LED screen saying BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET STATION there'd be no reason for anyone to suspect in was a station. So basically a 21st century version of the old one.

As I said before the design of the new rail station resembles more the design and the amenities of an Aiport than of an old Victiorian Station

BUT you do have to ask yourself "what does a station look like?"

Victorian stations were designed to resemble cathedrals, and created lots of space for steam and smoke to dissipate, light to enter, whereas now our needs are completely different - comfort, quick movements.

Personally I couldn't tell you what a modern station should look like but in terms of a striking building (which is what this needs to be to make it recognisable, representative and navigable), I think it ticks the boxes :)

Representative of what? A shopping centre built over a train station?

Regardless of what Victorian stations were supposed to resemble, the fact is they have three brilliant qualities... They are grand luxurious buildings, they give travellers a sense of occassion when going on a journey and most of all they are welcoming places drenched in romantic charm.

Then we look at this... It is neither grand, nor luxurious, there will be no sense of occassion when using this station anymore than there would be when going to the bullring, and as for welcoming, well the platforms will still be in darkness, and the main concourse will be stuffed full of shops. Yeah, WELCOME TO BIRMINGHAM.

Being as the number of tracks going into the station is the same, presumably there will still be plenty of last minute platform changes, and with the exception of some escalators I don't think this refurb is going to make rushing from one side of the station to another a particuarly joyful experience for passengers.

The more I see this the more I have grave reservations as to the outcome, we seem to be missing an oppurtunity here, and by the time we come to build a new station in Birmingham, New Street will have become a shithole all over again.

Regardless of what Victorian stations were supposed to resemble, the fact is they have three brilliant qualities... They are grand luxurious buildings, they give travellers a sense of occassion when going on a journey and most of all they are welcoming places drenched in romantic charm.

:ohno:What the Victorian stations resembled is totally irrelevant. We have to live with two basic facts, one of them is that we live in 2008 and not 1890 and the second one is that there is no funding for demolishing the 1960's station. Following that the design is IMO truly worldclass.

ILC,

Respect your views and all that but I can't see anything that looks like a shithole in these designs, it's an atractive building with nice curves, it's spacious inside with lots of light, everything the current New St ain't.

Well it's not like the Victorian masterpieces, realistically it can't be. This is down to a number of things including, location, money and the fact it has to remain an operating station!


What it can be is a million times better than what is there now and improve the passenger experience no end!

Representative of what? A shopping centre built over a train station?

Regardless of what Victorian stations were supposed to resemble, the fact is they have three brilliant qualities... They are grand luxurious buildings, they give travellers a sense of occassion when going on a journey and most of all they are welcoming places drenched in romantic charm.

Then we look at this... It is neither grand, nor luxurious, there will be no sense of occassion when using this station anymore than there would be when going to the bullring, and as for welcoming, well the platforms will still be in darkness, and the main concourse will be stuffed full of shops. Yeah, WELCOME TO BIRMINGHAM.

Being as the number of tracks going into the station is the same, presumably there will still be plenty of last minute platform changes, and with the exception of some escalators I don't think this refurb is going to make rushing from one side of the station to another a particuarly joyful experience for passengers.

The more I see this the more I have grave reservations as to the outcome, we seem to be missing an oppurtunity here, and by the time we come to build a new station in Birmingham, New Street will have become a shithole all over again.

Representative of the city. Pray tell, what exactly is the problem with a shopping centre incorporated into a station? Go to major transport interchanges the world over and you will find something very similar. It's because people waiting for trains, making connections or arriving somewhere almost always want to buy a coffee, magazine, something to eat, browse the shops.

Victorian stations are a nice idea, usually look great and the imagery is romantic, but the simple fact is that the modern traveller wants a warm place to wait, something to do and wants to be kept up-to-date.

Grandeur is obviously subjective, but IMHO this scheme looks very grand. It is statement architecture (as the Victorians did) and works internally and externally.

We need to refurbish/rebuild New St whatever happens (new station elsewhere, HS2 or whatever) and we can now get on with it. We also have a main station right in the middle of the city that doesn't splice the city centre with viaducts or rail tracks, but means we have to have subterranean platforms.

I agree with the criticism that the atrium should extend down to flood light into the platforms, but other than that I can find very little wrong with the proposal to get New St right.

If the atrium extended down to the platforms it would have to be another layer of glass - surely very costly - or you would choke the waiting passengers on the diesel fumes from the trains waiting in the station!

ILC,

Respect your views and all that but I can't see anything that looks like a shithole in these designs, it's an atractive building with nice curves, it's spacious inside with lots of light, everything the current New St ain't.

Your right, the designs don't remind me of a "shit hole" either, & although ilc's rants get on my tits a little, I too broadly agree with what he is trying to put across.

The upper levels where the shops are & where people congregate to wait for their trains is still completely disconnected from the actual station platforms below. This much has not changed, & to me is not a pleasant railway experience. People leaving & arriving in the city will still have a subterranean experience.

What is needed (although I am completely aware that economics / logistics dictate here), is an open, airy daylight experience, with a vast sweeping canopy covering the whole station - similar to the old Victorian stations, but a 21st Century version.

http://www.johnhannavy.co.uk/resources/Koln+Station.jpg

This ^^, isn't quite what I have in mind, but Cologne's Hauptbahnhof gives a real sense of 'arrival' in a great city. :)

If the atrium extended down to the platforms it would have to be another layer of glass - surely very costly - or you would choke the waiting passengers on the diesel fumes from the trains waiting in the station!

A layer of glass would be needed, and could be fenced off so it isn't a walk-over one, but the glass wouldn't cost much more than the concrete.

The only problem would be if the concrete is already there and they are not intending to strip it all out, they would have to cut a hole in.

It would be worth it though.

Has to be kept clean and wont fair out too well if there is a fire or bomb.

Has to be kept clean and wont fair out too well if there is a fire or bomb.


We wouldn't build anything if we were worried about "bombs" .... look at the roof of the Bullring .... if a bomb went off in there, hundreds would be decapitated!

Following on from the prescient comments

Blaze forces station evacuation

Birmingham's New Street station was temporarily closed and evacuated after a fire broke out on two platforms.

All passengers were told to leave the building shortly after 2000 BST and trains were expected to be delayed until 2200 BST.

The station has since reopened but platforms eight and nine remain shut.

The fire, which is now out, was not thought to be suspicious and British Transport Police said it was probably caused by a fault on an escalator.

Firefighters and paramedics were in attendance at the scene.

Trains were able to continue passing through the station while it was closed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/7647484.stm

ILC,

Respect your views and all that but I can't see anything that looks like a shithole in these designs, it's an atractive building with nice curves, it's spacious inside with lots of light, everything the current New St ain't.

The concourse will be full of light, not the platforms, so people arriving will still get the first impression of arriving in a hole...

Representative of the city. Pray tell, what exactly is the problem with a shopping centre incorporated into a station? Go to major transport interchanges the world over and you will find something very similar. It's because people waiting for trains, making connections or arriving somewhere almost always want to buy a coffee, magazine, something to eat, browse the shops.

Victorian stations are a nice idea, usually look great and the imagery is romantic, but the simple fact is that the modern traveller wants a warm place to wait, something to do and wants to be kept up-to-date.

Grandeur is obviously subjective, but IMHO this scheme looks very grand. It is statement architecture (as the Victorians did) and works internally and externally.

We need to refurbish/rebuild New St whatever happens (new station elsewhere, HS2 or whatever) and we can now get on with it. We also have a main station right in the middle of the city that doesn't splice the city centre with viaducts or rail tracks, but means we have to have subterranean platforms.

I agree with the criticism that the atrium should extend down to flood light into the platforms, but other than that I can find very little wrong with the proposal to get New St right.

There is nothing specifically wrong with shops being incorporated into a train station, it works well in St. Pancras because the shops were designed to fit in with the station. Here the building is being designed to accomadate the shops, utterly retarded, and only being done to raise some extra revenue for network rail, you would think that being as this redvelopment is going to bring the station to near caapcity again once it's finished that they would want to use as much of the space as they can... but no, they're putting in lots of shops. Great.

I'm not saying we should build a pretend victorian station or anything like that, I'm saying we should build a fucking station, not a shopping centre. A few shops is fine, great even, a whole fucking mall though? It'll be a mess.

The exterior is not representative of Birmingham, at best it is a shabby bland design that wishes to emulate the selfridges building, the glass roof looks nice enough, but then the light won't be getting down to the platforms so all in all a half hearted solution to new streets problems.

Just because this design is better than is whats there now, doesn't make it good, just because the brief was never to solve the fundamental flaws of the station doesn't excuse network rail from flogging this half hearted effort to us, and just because brum will eventually get a new station doesn't mean we should let this one be less than what we deserve.

If we deserve a glorified shopping centre, then so be it, bring on the grey blobby thing.

New St Station deserves to be redeveloped. It can't grow without tunnelling below (not going to happen).

At some point we will need a new station elsewhere, to complement New St.

That's the facts, so how are we to respond better?

Well Grand Central Terminal in New York has a similar set up to the new New Street.

Massive atrium, shops, restuarants and ticket offices with trains departing from the depths of the station.

It works there, sadly no massive arches, because of its central location ala New Street, but a great station.

I bet you a modern equivalent of Grand Central would cost in excess of £1b :(

And at platform level Grand Central isn't anything special.

That's my point though. No massive arch or naturally lit stations, just a big passenger area surrounded by retail and food, with platforms underground, yet it's a great station.

I think it will be a cracker :)

That's my point though. No massive arch or naturally lit stations, just a big passenger area surrounded by retail and food, with platforms underground, yet it's a great station.

You are exactly right there Mark.

NY Grand Central at platform level is even dingier than New St. The trains have to have the lights on inside just so that you can find your seat.

The whole "experience" of Grand Central in New York is the fantastic lobby area. Once you get out of that, even the franchise areas with bookstalls and pizza places is nothing special.

And agreed Bio. If this materialises as proposed without being dumbed down then it wil be a cracker!

Given that Gateway is the scheme going ahead, like it or not, I was wondering how they could improve the platforms, seeing as they have to be subterranean with little natural light. They have said they'll get rid of all the waiting rooms and junk on the middles of the platforms. That will mean it's possible to look right across the station. It will also mean the platforms are wider, as their narrowness is one of the problems at the moment. The other problem is the black voids above the tracks. This should be filled in with some sort of concave ceiling above each pair of tracks (allowing room for catenary, of course), finished in white, and brightly illuminated, perhaps including a few coloured lights as well as bright white ones. Lots and lots of extra lighting has to be the answer, and while it may seem environmentally unfriendly, surely modern lighting is much more efficient than the current lights?

Nothing can be done with the black spaces above the tracks, if they painted them white and lit them up within a week the sut from the diesel trains would be there for all to see.

As for people comparing Birmingham New Street Station with Grand Central Station in New York all I'm gonna say is, apples and pears, apples and pears.

pears!!!!!

Lemons??

oranges

Kumquat?

tomatoes obvs

Nah, kiwi fruit

As for people comparing Birmingham New Street Station with Grand Central Station in New York all I'm gonna say is, apples and pears, apples and pears.

:ohno: Why not? Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

They are both major rail interchanges with subterranean platforms,

One is regarded as an "icon" of the rail world. We are discussing whether the new New St could still be a great station with dark dingey platforms. NYGC is an example of one that is.

.......and no-one said bananas. :banana:

...apples and pears, apples and pears...

...stairs!................or in this case, escalators................42 of them apparently! :)

well this new street development looks quite excellent. But, look at the prices of the property marekt in the UK, prices were dropping more then 10% of prices were already dropped , it is expected that there will be more drop in the prices in the new year.

This is public project so it is not feeling any pinch. Price will not decrease at all.

:spam1:

What a strange fellow.

The only bit consisting of any residential property is Phase 2 with the 2 skyscrapers and completion of those is not expected until after 2012. It's anyone's guess what the economy will be like then.

Gateway shopping cathedral or Grand Central transport hub?
Oct 15 2008 Letters To The Editor

I must congratulate the Post on its excellent coverage of Gateway developments over the past few weeks and submit this letter as comments on several articles on several different dates.

On the strength of the second-rate decisions he and his Gateway committee have made, I feel proud to be included as one of Sir Bernard Zissman’s whingers.

We so-called whingers are Brummies who are proud of their city and region. Unlike him and his colleagues, we whingers are not prepared to accept a second-rate decision by a second-rate quango on probably the premier decision to be made for the future of the city over the next century.

We simply cannot afford to repeat the mistakes of the second half of the last century.

Manchester and Leeds will certainly not do so – they have civic leaders who have more of a sense of seeing where and how their cities will best go forward into this century. They would choose a Grand Central solution to take their populace forward at 200mph rather than sit around in a Gateway at the altar of a sweeping reflective metal and glass structure with huge cathedral-like atriums where passengers will browse in shops while waiting for their trains

The Gateway scheme will meet only one of the criteria he set himself that of “impact on the city skyLine” – a purely aesthetic issue.

Gateway fails miserably on the three other practical criteria

It will NOT benefit passengers nor visitors if they arrive by train

It cannot be afforded since it does not meet future rail (passenger) future needs and is therefore a misuse of public funds

It is a glass-fronted retail centre first and not a railway station or transport hub

We are told by no less than Liam Byrne New Street will “remain at the heart of the rail network for 20 years”. Currently the station sees 21million passengers annually and passenger growth is about five per cent per annum. Assuming linear growth that means New Street. will be handling 42 million passengers.

There is no way New Street could handle this number of passengers.

Train capacity can hardly be expanded within the current New Street confines. Proposals to increase train lengths from four to eight coaches on the busiest commuter routes means platforms that are used for two trains will only accommodate one train.

The most serious problem limiting train capacity is the access through the tunnels into the station.

It is already congested and train lengthening will increase the access time (if only by several seconds per train) into the station, further increasing congestion trains.

Nothing could be worse than New Street Station as the entry point for visitors to Birmingham.

Nothing that is other than having to negotiate a crowded glass-roofed shopping centre when rushing for that crowded train they will probably miss.I have a proposal to put to Sir Bernard.

I submit Grand Central would meet all of his criteria and provide a better retail centre. better-integrated transport hub, ideal access for high speed rail. and provide the foundation for a development (retail and transport) far superior to Berlin Hauptbahnhof and a more significant basis for an iconic development suitable for the best city (London included).

Sir Bernard and his second class quango colleagues should resign now. They have failed the city.

If we whingers have got it wrong, can the members of the design panel, or Gateway Partnership please tell us

■ How many extra trains Gateway will handle compared with New Street?

■ How much the journey time be improved by the Gateway design (including walking time from entrance to station to getting on a train?

My fellow whingers and I want the best for Birmingham but we are being let down by our civic leaders and planners.

They are ecstatic over a less-than-adequate glass-fronted waiting room and shops.

No wonder the thinkers and doers are emigrating in droves. We should all emigrate and leave Sir Bernard, Liam Byrne and the quango to it.

Even better we should ask them to emigrate and leave us to get on with it we could not fail to do a better job than this lot.

Forward with Grand Central

Backward to the future with Gateway

H T Harvey,
By email.

http://www.birminghampost.net/comment/letters-to-the-editor/2008/10/15/gateway-shopping-cathedral-or-grand-central-transport-hub-65233-22040253/

HERE HERE

To bad for mr Harvey that both Manchester and Leeds civil leaders proceed with redeveloping their existing central stations and didn't lost any time asking for billions that there wasn't even the slightest chance to get from Westminster....

The only bit consisting of any residential property is Phase 2 with the 2 skyscrapers and completion of those is not expected until after 2012. It's anyone's guess what the economy will be like then.
Hopefully somebody will see the light, Digger's quoted some famous economist the other day by saying "you should always build through a recession".

To turn the above letter around...

■ How many extra trains would Grand Central handle without the extra track needed which adds £££s to the cost (e.g. Proof House to Aston North), considering the track under the Bullring would remain 4 track?

■ How much the journey time be increased by siting the main station at Eastside (including walking time from entrance to station to getting on a train)?

Basically, the old lid is being taken off New Street & will be replaced with a new lid.

Basically, the old lid is being taken off New Street & will be replaced with a new lid.

If only... More like, the bottom lid is staying firmly where it is, while the upper lid is having a small hole cut in it but will otherwise stay the same.

We keep going round and round the same argument.

Maybe if the nay-sayers were a little more emphatic when things were being decided then opinions might have changed and we would be doing something else now (well, for a Grand Central in about 10-15 years time), but they didn't and New St won the day.

So why not just throw your energy into this instead? Or maybe we should give the money back.

For all the arguments FOR Grand Central, no-one has yet said how it would improve New St. They can't, because it won't.

Nobody here would deny something needed to be done about New street, the problem is that instead of forcing the government to take a look at the long term future of rail in brum this gateway scheme has totally let them off the hook. By throwing some money at us, telling us to build something pretty and wait another 30 years for anything major they have essentially gotten out of having to make a major transport decision about Birmingham.

And why? Because Birmingham city council couldn't be arsed to investigate any other proposals, they fostered a situation where the only 2 possible solutions were gateway or grand central, and the latter was easy to write off as an expensive waste of space and unlikely to convince central govt. They put no effort into finding new proposals and decided quite early on that getting new street tarted up was more important (and a hell of alot easier for them to get funding for) than anything else. so basically it's a bit hard for us "nay-sayers" to simply throw our weight behind this scheme when it is the complete embodiment of a missed oppurtunity.

Birmingham City Council can only do limited things when rebuilding a netowrk railway station.

They have far more influence over New St than anywhere else. They could set land aside, but that's about it.

Nothing is stopping them investigating what can be done, they don't have to build anything they only have to investigate to see what is possible, then instead of ignoring developers like arup they can invite them to come up with different proposals.

It's nice that something is getting done about New Street, but if the only transport improvement brum is getting for the next 30 years is a new facade and roof for a train station then it's really pathetic.

You mean like how they investigated the possibility of running the Metro underground? That turned out well :|

I'm sure they looked into extending the tunnels at Curzon Circus (directly beneath the Curzon Gateway site) to New Street as a way of alleviating demand for the existing tracks...

There aren't tunnels there Erebus. They've kept a sliver of space adjacent to BCU site and Curzon Park for extra rail lines but as this map shows, the lines at that point went to the goods yard and then Parcelforce site but not into New Street. The only tunnels there are currently the current ones into New Street.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/BCUC.jpg

There was a goods yard at Mailbox site but that was surface level too and also Central Good Station on that side too plus there is Lawley Street Goods Yard you might be thinking of?

http://www.railaroundbirmingham.co.uk/Stations/curzon_street.php

http://www.railaroundbirmingham.co.uk/Stations/central_goods.php

http://www.railaroundbirmingham.co.uk/Stations/lawley_street_goods.php

I'm pretty sure I've read in numerous sources at there being tunnels at the site. I'll try and dig out something! I'm 75% though!

I've never seen any reference to tunnels on the E approach to Brum. This Clearing House diagram (http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cj.tolley/rjd/rjd-007.htm)from 1915 agrees.

Looking at the maps of the site, there used to be about five rail lines off the viaduct which would have led to some industrial bit but they were on ground. The viaduct being as it is above ground and the surrounding rail lines show tunnels wouldn't make fit.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Birmingham%20UK/CurzonRail.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Birmingham%20UK/Curzon3.jpg

I have heard that tunnels were built that never used running to Curzon Circus, there is also another tunnel, again never used, running east out of New Street which is midway down the north tunnel. I don't think they were completed, but it seems as if they may have been intended to connect to Snowhill tunnel.

You only have to look at the geology of the site and exits out of New Street to see that wouldn't make sense as tunnels to be below ground at Curzon Street would have to had to leave New Street and dig down.

It's an urban myth by the looks of it.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Birmingham%20UK/Bham1905.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Birmingham%20UK/bham1920.jpg

I can't find the PDF that had the information on it. I specifically remember a map of the site from when there were the proposals to construct the cement silos which faced showed exactly what you have posted above except the lines were a lot shorter (they did not extend across the whole site). The map was orientated so that what would be typically north was infact the southeast.

I was reading a railway mag(modern railways or todays railways). Either one of the two,and there was an article about the station redevelopment.It says that they will demolish that god awful office block as part of the development. And the rest was just you usual that we've already heard.It was quite interesting to read anyway.I can't scan it on to the computer because i didn't buy it. Sneaky me,reading away in the corner of smiths for half-an-hour. =P

Did they mean Ladywood house? That got planning permission for a refurb didn't it? If it's true then THANK FUCK, that block is crap, maybe they're including it in the compulsary purchase order? They may as well being as they're buying everything else.

Which ones Ladywood House? are we talking about the HSBC building next to the ramp?

I'm confused :(

yeah Ladywood house had planning app for entrance to be renewed on Stephenson Street but it said it was short term (3 years) prior to redevelopment plans for New Street.

Sounds promising if it is to go.

http://birminghamcentral.blogspot.com/2008/07/viewpoint-for-now.html

Ladywood House stays. It's only Stephenson Tower (the resi block) that is proposed for demolition. They are both in the CPO though.

I can see Ladywood House going if they need to.

Had the 'pleasue' of travelling to Solihull the other day which meant transfering from NS to Moor Street - the sign posting between these stations REALLY could do with being improved.

My incoming train was delayed a bit, and due to not being able to find Moor Street in a rush I miss my connection.

Next time you travel into NS, try following the signs to Moor Street, they disappear at the Bull Ring, in fact at one point one points in totally the wrong direction!!!

Hopefully it will be addressed when they do New St.

I feel they missed a trick when building the Bullring there too - a clear path to Moor St would have been useful.

i remember a few years back wasnt it highly publicised that they painted a bright red line linking the two stations so people could walk from one to the other, but the building of the bullring got rid of that... i DON'T think it would be a bad idea to re-install it, something like the pavement features near the mailbox which link to the lamposts

I agree.

...better?

It might have been missed when the announcement came out but I found a reference to development looking at the link between the two stations.


Transport Design Consultancy who bid in july as part of a consortium with architect Chapman Taylor is currently pitching to design a new pedestrian walkway between New Street and and the adjacent Moor Street which should support the project and connect to neighbouring Moor Street Station.
http://birminghamcentral.blogspot.com/2008/10/new-start-for-new-street.html

Well spotted feltip.

...better?

Sound.

Changing the signs that say 'All stations' and points away from Moor Street between the Bull ring and church would be a start.

Can we assume the two towers in the original design are no longer a feature of, or part of the secured finance for the most recent designs?

They never were part of the finance, they are part of a second phase to be undetaken by private developers once the station is finished.

I think a few foamex signs leading from the NSS escalators into the Pallasades, through the bridge links into Bullring and then outside to the road, reading THIS WAY TO MOOR ST STATION could be done before the re-development of NS, don't you??? Jeez, I could do it on a weekend!!

Next time you travel into NS, try following the signs to Moor Street, they disappear at the Bull Ring, in fact at one point one points in totally the wrong direction!!!

I did the very same today and set out to prove you wrong Metro ( ;) ) having done the journey loads of times myself.

I even took pictures of the signs (would have posted them only photobucket won't work today) and got completely let down when I got up to the Bull Ring.

It's fine so far, but then nothing. It's not even clear when you know roughly where Moor St is because there is not one sign on it saying "MOOR ST STATION!" :bash:

They never were part of the finance, they are part of a second phase to be undetaken by private developers once the station is finished.
In that case we are unlikely to see them ever come to fruition now, shame I was looking forward to an Hill st revival!

Touch of Hill St Blues then eh?

Touch of Hill St Blues then eh?
Indeed, though a few dreams have been shattered in the last few months, can't help but think Birmingham City Council's claims about £17 Billion investment in the city centre is somewhat reduced after the economy meltdown. Just going to have to go down the pub and drown my sorrows:cheers:

by the time the station is done 2012/13 phase 2 will be good to go

I did the very same today and set out to prove you wrong Metro ( ;) ) having done the journey loads of times myself.

I even took pictures of the signs (would have posted them only photobucket won't work today) and got completely let down when I got up to the Bull Ring.

It's fine so far, but then nothing. It's not even clear when you know roughly where Moor St is because there is not one sign on it saying "MOOR ST STATION!" :bash:

Tell the council about it, I it can be raised directly with whichever department deals with signage. Infact I think my friend deals with transport signs or traffic information at least.

Also, it's up to the station itself to put a sign on the front saying it's Moor Street Station

as long as Chiltern Railways who run the station put up a sign in keeping with their GWR style and dont stick up something obtuse on the building.

The current sign on the front of the facade only says Booking Hall at present.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/156/361637802_623ab3af18_o.jpg
From Brett Wilde (http://flickr.com/photos/brettwilde/)

I did the very same today and set out to prove you wrong Metro ( ;) ) having done the journey loads of times myself.

I even took pictures of the signs (would have posted them only photobucket won't work today) and got completely let down when I got up to the Bull Ring.

It's fine so far, but then nothing. It's not even clear when you know roughly where Moor St is because there is not one sign on it saying "MOOR ST STATION!" :bash:

Come out the station (if you can find the side door) and here's a handy sign at Smallbrook St......

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o114/fruityandnutty/SSC/Image049.jpg

....follow this and you immediately think ..."?"...but spot this handy sign up a side path....

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o114/fruityandnutty/SSC/Image050-2.jpg

...but then you think shall I go under the tunnel (bearing in mind you're on the wrong side of the road for the footpath) or do I go up the ramp. Logic sends you up the ramp to "Rotunda Square" where you get stumped.

There should be a sign here.....

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o114/fruityandnutty/SSC/Image051.jpg

by the old Nike shop because even if you got that far the view of this....

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o114/fruityandnutty/SSC/Image052-1.jpg

....doesn't automatically lead you to it.

There used to be a line painted on the pavement when the Bullring first reopened but it must have worn away.

that 4th pickture is shocking, how did that get passed planning...mind you is not as bad in real life

There are parts of the Bullring that don't link up very well with the rest of the city, that being one of them. A flight of steps, like the ones at the Snow Hill development, would have been great there. Also the other side, with the alley-way walk down to New Street is pretty rubbish too.

Most of the signs point to the tunnel, and almost all the tree plant pots have signs which lead you to the tunnel.

The Bullring was designed to face New street/High street and St. Martins and does not take into account anything else in that area. For all its attirbutes the Selfridges building is a blank wall facing Moor street with a small entrance to the Bullring. The walkway (if it could even be called that) from Moor Street upto the Bullring is appalling. It looks like a complete afterthought and is decorated with some crappy garishly coloured handrails that wouldn't look out of place in West Bromwich crica 1987, in the City Park Gate thread we talk about there being a visual link from Moor street to Eastside, but that'll be useless being as there is no visual link to Moor Street anyway if the only way to get there is via a crappy alleyway hidden next to the Bullring!

One day the Pavillions will go and then Moor Street will get the link it deserves.

Good point, Carrs Lane is also a another route to Moor Street from High Street, but again it very narrow.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/7699260.stm

Fire alarms spark station alert
Hundreds of commuters have been asked to leave Birmingham New Street station after fire alarms sounded.

The alarms went off at about 0800 GMT and the platforms and concourses were evacuated as police and fire engines arrived.

Travellers using Arriva Trains Wales, London Midland, Virgin Trains and Cross Country have been affected.

National Rail said delays should be expected on services using the station until about 0930 GMT.

News on the extension of the Navigation Street bridge


A new section of bridge will be built to connect to the unconnected platforms with a section removed to allow for the new bridge which will widen the bridge from platform eight and nine to platform 12. Lifting this new bridge is scheduled to happen during a Christmas blockade in 2010
http://birminghamcentral.blogspot.com/2008/11/new-street-project-blown-away-by-design.html

:?

Are we still keeping the crap white bridge?

half of it it would seem :|

:bash:

When I read it it came across as confusing, are they extending the current bridge, then building a new one, or just extending a new one, and what is this splitting it in half? :nuts:

It's not brilliantly worded. It looks like they are extending the current one but by removing the section from platform 8 of the current bridge and adding a new section to the existing one.

This has gone into planning. Oh the irony when you think it was a hotel as gateway entrance to the old station.


Application number
C/05852/08/FUL

Date application received
13/11/2008

Date application registered
13/11/2008

Status
Under Consultation

Location
Stephenson Street, Ladywood House, City, Birmingham, B2 4DH

Proposal
Change of use from former office accomadation to provide a 335 bedroom hotel including restaurant and bar area. Cladding and minor alterations to existing entrance on Stephenson Street.

Applicant name and address
Whitbread Group PLC
C/o Turley Associates


Agent name and address
Turley Associates
9 Colmore Row
Birmingham
B3 2BJ


Council decision
Under consideration

Decision date


Consultation details
Consultations Help

Start date
13/11/2008

End date
17/12/2008

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1024/532261860_ded6b955a7.jpg?v=0

Well it certainly ain't going to be a gateway entrance for the new one. It'll be a Premier Inn as it's for Whitbread.

A good referb could make it...

Nwah, just blow the fecker up...

Spot on Bachy!

It's shite and an insult to its predecessor. Flatten it!

I quite like it.

Nevermind Ladywood house, just look at that fucking carpark!

I like how there are no renders of this side of the re-new-ed street station, probably because they know it'll look atrocious.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1024/532261860_ded6b955a7.jpg?v=0

Well it certainly ain't going to be a gateway entrance for the new one. It'll be a Premier Inn as it's for Whitbread.

Weren't they taking that building overlooking the cathedral?

no idea but we do need more/better premier travel inn, the only one i can think of is the one behind the old orleans which looks like its been lifted from a motorway service station!

btw as i said on the birmingham thread, this application does not propose ANY alterations to the external appearance of the building other then that already approved!

It says something about cladding, ^^ but I can't work out if they just mean at the entrance or the whole thing :dunno:

in other word the only changes they are doing to the external poart of the building is the changes to cladding that are approved with the small planning app that went in a few weeks back for the entrance!

not even the windows are being changed!

I hope it gets refused. It needs something better than a Premier Inn.

It needs a wrecking ball.

i beg to differ with regard to the quality of the hotel. such a level of hotel here would be very appropriate for this location, equally the scale of that proposed....

however, with the station recieving £600m of investment fo the purposes of refurbishment, the councils shouldnt be encouraging such developments. Refurbishment i have no issue with.. but make it worth while!

There demolishing ladywood house though??
Thats what it said in rail mag about a month ago.

appaprently they arent

Let's write in and object!

C/05852/08/FUL

appaprently they arent

Oh,C'mon.
Thats a real piss off.
Birmingham has all these high hopes and big ideas and then when a world class plan comes out for the statio they go all half hearted and silly.It just won't do.I'm sorry,its a shit building and it just will not fit in with the new plans anyway. God knows how there going to incorporate it.

I just hope i'm right and your wrong mate.

maybe they can hide it

maybe they can hide it

And we can create a new world record by making the worlds biggest sheet to cover it with. :yes:

You need these people's help:
http://www.christojeanneclaude.net/

Oh,C'mon.
Thats a real piss off.
Birmingham has all these high hopes and big ideas and then when a world class plan comes out for the statio they go all half hearted and silly.It just won't do.I'm sorry,its a shit building and it just will not fit in with the new plans anyway. God knows how there going to incorporate it.

I just hope i'm right and your wrong mate.

If you look at the images released in the big announcement it is still there.

'Fraid it's staying.

Maybe in the station re-design they could have a dedicated smokers zone by every door with a giant extractor fan above so when you enter the station you don't have to breathe in a few cubic feet of second hand smoke emitted by the people that are attached to the doors.

Not being a smoker I don't get the big deal about inhaling carcinogenic chemicals that you're warned to stay away from during any COSHH training, but I respect that some people do and they need their space to do so without inflicting it on people who chose not to!

Yesterday seemed worse than usual after I semi-jogged up Bradford St, up the bullring steps and over to the station to be confronted with the above! :ohno:

...and more ticket machines that accept change or fix the note slots! I missed my train earlier this week as I forgot to get change and had to queue for ten minutes as no machine would accept any of the notes I had.

I love New St! :lol: :bash:

Relax, have a cig. Chill man!

Relax, have a cig. Chill man!

:lol:

Sorry, it was a bit of a rant. It's just something that really bugs me every day after a walk up the the station is that I'm always confronted with clouds of smoke by the doors, compounded recently with the cold weather that seems to make my sense of smell more acute.

Re-worded though, a smokers shelter would be nice! :)

Ladywood house is to be re-furbished by Thomas Vale COnstruction. No demolition.

we know :)

:lol:

Sorry, it was a bit of a rant. It's just something that really bugs me every day after a walk up the the station is that I'm always confronted with clouds of smoke by the doors, compounded recently with the cold weather that seems to make my sense of smell more acute.

:)

One of the fag end bins was almost ablaze the other day - masses of smoke pouring out of it. I'm surprised it wasn't a cue to evacuate.

We can't let this happen:

Application number


C/05852/08/FUL

Date application received


13/11/2008

Date application registered


13/11/2008

Status


Under Consultation

Location


Stephenson Street, Ladywood House, City, Birmingham, B2 4DH

Proposal


Change of use from former office accomadation to provide a 335 bedroom hotel including restaurant and bar area. Cladding and minor alterations to existing entrance on Stephenson Street.

Applicant name and address


Whitbread Group PLC
C/o Turley Associates

Agent name and address


Turley Associates
9 Colmore Row
Birmingham
B3 2BJ

Council decision


Under consideration

Decision date




Consultation details


Consultations Help

Start date


13/11/2008

End date


17/12/2008

Right, who is up to write to BCC to object?

If you are going to object then you will need to do so on serious grounds, not just that you don't like the building or because you want to see something different done with New Street.

There is very little i can see in this redevelopment which would predjudice the plans for New Street and the change of use of an old office building to Hotel would generally be supported.

Can't see a proper reason to object, sorry!

dito....

i mean the building we never actually going to be removed in the plans anyway. it is not hindering the project and as far as i am aware here are the facts....

1) the build was always planned to stay
2) the building is currently largely empty
3) the proposal brings an active use into the building and keeping it maintained

...the bad things being?

...the bad things being?

It is quite a crap building to look at from quite a few angles and won't be receiving much of an external upgrade as part of this refurb. It is part of the original 1960's plan for a station complex including offices, shops and a station, keeping it means nothing has been learned since then other than putting some windows in the roof of the concourse.

I mean it's bad enough the redeveloped station will still just be a shopping centre above a railway, but the fact they're keeping a big office block that ruins any chance of the Stephenson Street elevation being grand and welcoming is appalling. Gosh, try and compare a Premier Travel Inn above New Street station to the Midland Hotel above St. Pancras or the Great North Western Hotel next to Liverpool Lime Street, that's right, there is no comparison!

The more I hear about this redevelopment the less faith I have in it. In 40 years time I'm quite sure we will all still be moaning about what a shithole New St Station is because 90% of what makes the current station crap will be kept largely the same albeit a tad shinier.

but yet again your failing to give me a valid reason regarding planning of why this should be refused! if this is refused, then a newly developed new street station with have an empty office build over the top of it!

if you wanted ot get rid of it, then your time to comment was when the new street station app was in!

We are never going to see the likes of the grand hotels as entrances to stations as days gone by but further to Woody's comment about bringing it back into use; more hotels are needed to support our conference hosting and big events capacity and this has an enviable spot in being over the station. Great for using it as base for travelling even as far away as London / Manchester if ever people couldn't find rooms in distances away.

Totally agree with woody and feltip on this one! The building might aswell go to good use. It makes sense, both economically and environmentally. We should be trying to recycle more buildings like this! I don't personally see how this building is in any way detrimental, as we all knew the redevelopment of new street was never going to involve wholesale redevelopment!

I assume the alterations to the entrance will only be tempory? As wont the New Street face lift involve re-cladding this elevation?

I don't like how the building overshadows Stephenson Place, personally. When you are there, you know something is looming above but the fricking canopy of the Pallasades hides what it actually is!

EDIT: That's just a general observation, not my reason for objecting to the proposal. :)

KNOCK IT DOWN!

Woody excepted, does anyone have a good reason to object? IF we can put it out of use (or at least get it reclad) then it wil be worth the effort.

That said, re-using buildings and having hotels is great, I just don't want it to spoil the new New St.

To be honest, it is quite difficult to find anything that could actually make this a bad scheme. The entrance looks quite snazzy and would definitely improve the area at night. The exterior will change but it's hard to see how. There will be some recladding but because the elevations are dot-rendered, it is impossible to tell if there will be any colour difference. The interior looks pretty sound.

Then there's the logistics side of things. You can't really say there will be a strain on the road network because it is a short stay hotel really, aimed at those coming in at New Street and the Burlington Hotel seems to be doing just fine without causing too many problems! Even the Statement of Case by BCC for the CPO which covered Ladywood House hinted at the possibility of it becoming a hotel!

I can't even find a spelling mistake in the planning application!

I think we're gunna have to watch this one go through and get approved! :(

I think a lot of people are just going to have to grin and bear it. If people want more hotels and the ability to cater for the volume of visitors we want to attract and continue to do so then another hotel and one for the clientele it will cover is fantastic, especially in the location it is in. Plus it deals with an empty building.

I'm sure the glare and reflections from the new station coupled with the fact most people never look up anyway mean many people will continue to ignore it anyway.

What i'd be more concerned about and linked to the station redevelopment is the streetscape and avoiding the claustrophobic nature of the row of shops under the building together with the new entrances to New Street and encouraging an active and aesthetic streetscape.

Cheap shite, poor planning laws and generally crap. Sorry.

ouch!

Let's hope there's no repeat here.

Architect says inadequate finance on City of Justice would have meant ‘very low-quality’ building

Foreign Office Architects (FOA) has resigned from the new City of Justice project in Madrid due to “insufficient levels of funding”.

The practice said it was renouncing its association with the scheme because it believed poor funding levels would produce a “very low-quality building”.

FOA principal Alejandro Zaera-Polo said: “Conflicts arising from the expectation of meeting a certain level of quality architecture without being granted the necessary resources have forced us to withdraw from the project in order to protect our professional profile.”

The project, from the Madrid regional government, aims to centralise the city’s legal institutions into a single site.

FOA had been appointed to design the Institute of Legal Medicine, one of 15 buildings to be included in the scheme. Other architects involved include Zaha Hadid and Norman Foster. The project was due to complete in 2014.

http://www.building.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=284&storycode=3129030&c=0

Good that they have the balls. Our's is expensive and MoJ are throwing money around for good buildings.

This is worth a watch, for anyone who didn't catch it on BBC4!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00g3vnh/Beechings_Tracks_Midlands/

Quite a bit about New Street, including the suggestion that an underground level for new lines it definitely on the cards!

Underground level on the cards?

But the actual station being built won't be able to cope with anymore platforms being added, unless the new platforms don't link with the current concourse, in which case WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT?

Underground level on the cards?

But the actual station being built won't be able to cope with anymore platforms being added, unless the new platforms don't link with the current concourse, in which case WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT?

Blimey ILC, I've got used to your baloney, but you've reached a new level there.

I just hope for your sake alcohol is affecting your judgement.

yes it can... the planning aplication stated that these plans are allowing for the extension of platforms on another underground level!

so let me get this straight...

when the refurbishment is done the station will be running at passenger capacity.

adding more platforms means more passengers...

where are those passengers going to go if the redeveloped station is already at capacity?

No the revamp will provide more passenger capacity but no additional track capacity until/unless the new underground platforms are built.

exactly!

yes but increasing the numbers of platforms will be increasing the number of passengers no? Where are they supposed to go if the station is running at pasenger capacity?

but the station wont be running at passanger capacity once redeveloped.....

i'm sure it has been said on here that in terms of predicted passenger growth once the station redevelopment is complete it'll be running at passenger capacity again within 5 years.

^^ From newstreetnewstart.co.uk:

As services have become faster and more reliable in recent years, more people are using the railways than ever before. At New Street alone 120,000 people use the station every day. That’s double the amount who used it when the station was last rebuilt in 1967.

And there’s more to come, with increasing numbers of people choosing to leave the car at home and use the train instead.

Our plans are vital to allow us to meet that growing demand and mean the station should be able to cope with the increase in passenger numbers for at least 30 to 40 years.

Details about a suppliers' conference in February have appeared on newstreetnewstart.com - not much on there, but confirms that work's due to start before the end of the year.

http://www.newstreetnewstart.co.uk/form/index.php

Improvements to New Street Station and Birmingham International Airport will generate a £1.5 billion boost
Jan 16 2009 by Paul Dale, Birmingham Mail

REFURBISHING New Street Station and extending the runway at Birmingham International Airport will pour a massive £1.5 billion into the regional economy in the first 12 years of operation, new research has found.

The figure is a third higher than previous estimates, according to a study by economists at the West Midlands Regional Observatory.

Benefits include improved journey times for freight and cars, increased competitiveness for businesses and better labour force mobility.

The figure of £1.5 billion would be achieved between 2011 and 2023, assuming the station and airport schemes go ahead as planned and on time along with proposals to add new lanes to sections of the M6, M5 and M42 around Birmingham and improvements to the rail freight network.

Past calculations have put the value to the economy of the schemes at £1.1 billion, but the latest report says that figure was an underestimate because it failed to recognise most benefits accrue in the first 20 years after infrastructure projects are completed.

The report sets out the business cases for four projects:

* New Street Gateway – will unlock significant economic benefits in addition to supporting Birmingham as a world city.

* Birmingham International Airport – runway extension will give businesses direct access to China, India and the west coast of America.

* Birmingham Box – active traffic management and widening of sections of the motorway network around Birmingham will ease congestion.

* Rail Freight Upgrades – improvements to routes between Southampton and Birmingham and Nuneaton and Peterborough will assist export markets.

Only one of the schemes, New Street Gateway, is certain to go ahead.

The runway extension is subject to obtaining planning permission, while the motorway and rail improvements require government approval.

The new data was welcomed by Birmingham Chamber of Commerce and Industry chief executive Jerry Blackett.

He said the analysis could help convince ministers of the case for major regional infrastructure improvements.


http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2009/01/16/improvements-to-new-street-station-and-birmingham-international-airport-will-generate-a-1-5-billion-boost-97319-22703583/

I read this the other day tucked in the Big City Plan.


New Street Station could house museum of modern art
Jan 19 2009 By Paul Dale

A contemporary museum of modern art could be incorporated into the £600 million redevelopment of New Street Station.

That is just one of the ideas for a transformation of culture, leisure and sport contained in the Big City Plan.

While Birmingham already plays host to household names on the cultural and sporting circuit, including Symphony Hall, the Hippodrome and Rep Theatres, the Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery, the National Indoor Arena, Warwickshire County Cricket club and two professional football clubs, greater choice across the board is required to promote the city’s “national and global image”, according to planners.

The document warns: “Unlike some cities, Birmingham does not have a highly developed leisure scene with distinct and differentiated leisure areas.


http://www.birminghampost.net/news/2009/01/18/new-street-station-could-house-museum-of-modern-art-65233-22721178/

what a bizzare proposal.... more to the point.... why?

Just an idea I guess but highlights that we need more cultural and leisure attractions, which is good :)

i couldn't agree more.... but having looked at the plans for new street, i wasnt aware of there being enough space for that there.

why cant the excuse of a conteporary art gallery be used as an excuse to renovate another building in the city (not the library)

Why not the Victoria law courts building for a new artw gallery?

perfect....

Or something new on the wholesale markets site? It needn't be big but they should preserve land for an extension. That way it will be at the heart of the creative quarter but close enough to get passing footfall :)

Anyone who has been to Amsterdam would have seen the park that leads from the Rembrandt House to the Van Gogh Museum. The Wholesale Market re-design with Moat Square, a lake with lots of street art, leading up to our Modern Art Museum would be perfect. I also read that 90% of exhibits in the hands of the city are not on display at any one time, so we do need to invest in the whole culture infrastructure too.

Just found this very interested thread in the Foreign Stuff about American Railways (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=790656).

As the New "new street" design is more of a copy of the american rail station with the grande concourse that the commuter spend his time untill he picks up his train from the underground platforms, I think is a good idea to post some of the photos:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/210/510480677_0f4ace6dd6.jpg?v=0

http://travel.izzid.com/2008/Jan/us_rail_travel_amtrak/union_station_DC.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3017/2587649195_dc81e3b5ac.jpg
http://eater.com/uploads/2007_10_oyster_bar.jpg

http://*************************/birmingham/jpgs/birmingham_new_street_station_260908_1.jpg

That second picture looks very much like Haywood's design for the New Street booking hall in 1917:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/New_Street_Station_proposed_1917.jpg

Lookign through these Birmingham threads is depressing, I tend to stick to the London ones at the moment. Snow Hill on hold, V Tower STILL not U/C, VTP 200 having major problems. =[

Is work on New Street actually going to begin this year?

No! I don't think it was ever expected to.

It's all very well hiding in a London cocoon - are you a city banker? (sic!)

Wake up! There's a real world out here!

That's not a nice thing to say to our new guest.
Play nice!

Although we could mention the amount of Public spending on transport in London compared to the other 9/10th of the country, but that would be churlish

No! I don't think it was ever expected to.

It's all very well hiding in a London cocoon - are you a city banker? (sic!)

Wake up! There's a real world out here!

im expecting it to.

this is not a private development like the likes of v-tower and snow hill its totally differerent.

the government is funding this and as such the money is secured. also this is the type of scheme that the government would not want to delay on. similar to cross rail, this is an infrastructure project which in itself will create thousands fo temporary jobs and help support bpth the local and national economy when the end of the recession comes.

i dont think im being too 'rose tinted' here, i see NO reason why this shouldnt start this year (assuming they hurry up and put a reserved matters application in for the new design)

Sorry I didn't mean to appear harsh! No offence intended!

It'd be nice to see things start this year, but I genuinely thought it was expected to be a 2010 "breaking of concrete". What with the reserved matters and the sheer logistics of turning the design into architectural and engineering drawings, I thought it would take a year.

I'll happily be proved wrong!

i thought demolition was to start this year... remember the first phase was due to be complete 2012 with the final complete 2013/14???

Yeah, all being well enabling works should start this year. Although, don't forget we have to get through the CPO and dispute with Warner and then were all good to go as Woody say's once the reserved matters are submitted.

how long will a cpo take, isn't it anything between 1month and 5 years?

I'm sure the CPO was approved or similar last year but we have to have the call in with Warner objecting?

The importance of this to UK plc and to region together with those involved and as Woody says the ability to absorb job losses with new jobs being created together with Warner's spurious objections and holding tactic in purchasing the centre I hope and think it shouldn't take too long to approve the development.

Work starts this year, before summer I expect.

From Annual Report of Chairman of Planning Committee to Council.


New Street Station Gateway Scheme – following the granting of outline planning permission in July 2007, work has continued to progress the scheme. Foreign Office Architects have been appointed to the scheme and are working with the partners to develop the design prior to the submission of details. Work is currently being undertaken in respect of the compulsory purchases necessary for the overall development. It is hoped that work will commence in 2010.

Looks like 2010 is going to be a busy year for Birmingham!

here is hoping!

From Annual Report of Chairman of Planning Committee to Council.

That's what I thought - 2010! :)

This will please some of you.

From the reports going to Planning Committee on 5th February 2009


Stephenson Street,Ladywood House,Birmingham, B2 4DH
Change of use from former office accommodation to provide a 335 bedroom hotel
including restaurant and bar area. Cladding and minor alterations to existing entrance on
Stephenson Street

Recommendation
Refuse

Network Rail - Object. Whilst the general principle of a hotel use within this location may be acceptable, the application would have implications for the New Street Gateway scheme.
Ladywood House is part of the Compulsory Purchase Order for Gateway, where it is
proposed to use part of the building to house Train Operating Companies. Any proposal
should therefore seek to accommodate this and it is imperative that the proposal does not prejudice the wider Gateway regeneration scheme.

Centro - It should also be noted that the main access to Ladywood House would be in direct conflict with the Metro stop and the works to the façade should not conflict with the proposed Metro route.

The City Centre Neighbourhood Forum object to this proposal, although they generally
support the re-use of obsolete office space for hotels in the city centre, granting permission for this proposal would prejudice the much-needed redevelopment of the Stephenson Street aspect of New Street Station. Ladywood House is an eyesore and should be removed as part of a comprehensive redevelopment of New Street Station.

My committee report identified that:
With the above in mind, coupled with the fact that there are specific aspirations within the Gateway scheme to utilise Ladywood House for use as offices by Train Operating
Companies, I consider that the conversion of Ladywood House to a hotel would jeopardise the future development of the Gateway scheme. It is imperative that developments that are brought forward on the site of New Street station take into account the wider integrated development scheme as a whole.

Members should also be aware that there is a forthcoming hearing for a Compulsory
Purchase Order, of which Ladywood House forms a part. Notwithstanding this, the
application should be determined on its planning merits only. Therefore I do not consider it appropriate to refuse the application on grounds that it would impact on the Compulsory Purchase Order relating to Ladywood House.

Concerning the comments from The City Centre Neighbourhood Forum about the removal of Ladywood House as part of the redevelopment of New Street Station. This has never been the case and Ladywood House has always been proposed to be retained within any wholesale redevelopment of the site.

PLRR999 Non-Standard
The proposed use of Ladywood House as a hotel would result in its existing office
use ceasing, Ladywood House has been allocated for use as offices by train
operating companies in association with the New Street Gateway scheme. The
loss of the office use would therefore prejudice the future comprehensive
development of the area as a whole.

:):banana::cheers:

This will please some of you.

From the reports going to Planning Committee on 5th February 2009


Centro - It should also be noted that the main access to Ladywood House would be in direct conflict with the Metro stop and the works to the façade should not conflict with the proposed Metro route.

Fuck the Metro.

No way! Long live the Metro.

The Metro is essential for linking the stations in Birmingham. It's a real pain for people whose trains go into Snow Hill to have to walk across town. Also, it's ridiculous that the main railway station isn't on the Metro. Bringing the Metro to New Street should be a priority, to coincide with the opening of the revamped station. Once open, through rail tickets should include transfer on the Metro as they do on the London Underground.

Woah there jrawle, you're living in a crazy fantasy land where the British government has a coherrent joined up approach to national and local transport infrastructure projects. Get with the programme man, the metro isn't a priority for anyone in local or central govt, it never has been and never will.

Just found this very interested thread in the Foreign Stuff about American Railways (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=790656).



http://eater.com/uploads/2007_10_oyster_bar.jpg

http://*************************/birmingham/jpgs/birmingham_new_street_station_260908_1.jpg

Found this image of Oslo's proposed new station from Building Design which has some curvy arched flourishes like ours and the above.

Revamped Oslo Central Station aims to unify city.
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=781&storycode=3126048
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/Pictures/web/i/h/v/Stasjonsall__enWEB.jpg

Woah there jrawle, you're living in a crazy fantasy land where the British government has a coherrent joined up approach to national and local transport infrastructure projects. Get with the programme man, the metro isn't a priority for anyone in local or central govt, it never has been and never will.

ILC, if the metro extentions take place outside of Birmingham City Centre (where if the ADZ applications are successful is very likely to happen) then there would be no way that BCC could turn their noses up at the idea again.
People wonder why we can't sustain a city centre shopping experience much larger than the Bullring when there's a supposed 2.2million (exact number escapes me) people in the conurbation? I'm guessing it's because it's so relatively inaccesible unless you have a car.

I used to live in Kingswinford (near Stourbridge) and it could take anything up to 1hr30mins just to get into the city centre. The metro would provide a far more serious solution to the public transport issues we have than busses would ever do.

I'm not disagreeing nessy, I'm just looking at all the indicators which are saying there is absolutely no will amongst anyone in power to get Birmingham a suitable mass transit network.

Pin you hopes on the ADZ proposal (Accelerated Development Zone) that would help provide the local finance to make it happen

Which lines could we see if the ADZs happen? City Centre, Airport and Merry Hill?

Given the ADZ proposal covers the West Midlands and not just Birmingham then I'd imagine the three you mention would all be near the top of the list ie:

City Centre extension - Edgbaston
Line 2: Black Country route (Merry Hill joining to Line 1)
Airport Line (although i'd rank this as the least likely to happen of the three)

I think getting the Metro line over the new viaduct and to outside Snow Hill 3, and the linking of the extra platforms to Moor St station being an amazing amount of progress in the real world!

I think getting the Metro line over the new viaduct and to outside Snow Hill 3, and the linking of the extra platforms to Moor St station being an amazing amount of progress in the real world!

Agreed, most of the major construction work is done, and it would give more capacity all round. frustrating to se Moor St gowing weed again. Does no-one in this great city give a shit

The Metro is essential for linking the stations in Birmingham. It's a real pain for people whose trains go into Snow Hill to have to walk across town. Also, it's ridiculous that the main railway station isn't on the Metro. Bringing the Metro to New Street should be a priority, to coincide with the opening of the revamped station. Once open, through rail tickets should include transfer on the Metro as they do on the London Underground.

The only way you'd get me on the Metro is with Rohypnol.

Crap track, crap trams, crap fare - Basically, it's crap.

Are the new platforms in Moor Street going to serve a new railway line or just going to be another area for trains to terminate?

Well hopefully they will eventually serve the trains from the proposed services on the camp hill line...

They were originally designed to relieve congestion at Snow Hill. I believe the principal motivation was to create a terminus for some Chiltern services from London. The proposal to build a spur to the Camp Hill line and to reinstate passenger services thereon came much later, and judging by the amount of time it will have taken simply to connect a couple of platforms to the through tracks, that spur is many, many years away and may never come to fruition.

Part of the platform aims are to act as terminus for trains from Coventry and Wolverhampton too when the two loops are reinstated at Bordesley and Soho junctions. The idea to reinstate Camp Hill lines is part of these junction improvements and the plan is to see if they can use the desire to bring forward Network Rail improvements to build our way out of recession by bringing these plans earlier.

Network Rail should be doing it's signalling improvements this summer after which the platforms can be rejoined up to the existing line. Hopefully we will see the platforms reconnected by the end of 2009.

Following that we should hopefully hear more things about connecting Camp Hill line. It's a definite aim of Centro.

Part of the platform aims are to act as terminus for trains from Coventry and Wolverhampton too when the two loops are reinstated at Bordesley and Soho junctions.

I'm sorry, but this is not at all clear to me. I am not aware of any loop at Bordesley ready to be 'reinstated'. If you are referring to a totally new junction involving land purchase, major construction involving viaducts, resignalling, etc., then the new connection will still not allow trains from Coventry to access Moor St. Likewise the Soho loop (presumably you mean the proposed connection from the Soho line to the Snow Hill lines near Hockley --- another major project) would only bring trains from Walsall (or Wolverhampton taking a circuitous route via Bescot) into the through platforms at Moor St., not the re-opened terminus, thereby adding to congestion, not relieving it.

All the suburban lines mentioned (except the Camp Hill line) are electrified. Does this mean Centro is proposing to electrify the approach into Moor Street? I stick to my original statement --- given past history this is day-dreaming, and these projects will take years to come into being, if ever, but I would love to be proved wrong.

You'll be in for a pleasant surprise then ;). Summer sees the signalling being done which should allow the platforms to be reconnected later this year although depending on timing maybe 2010 but in the not too distant future once the signalling is done.

I should have said yes, Snow Hill will act as terminus for trains from one direction and Moor Street for trains from the other i.e. Coventry and Wolverhampton.

is that just local services or does it include national...i.e. manchester to brum, brum to london?

Think it would be local but with the Route Utilisation Strategy being worked on we will have to see what Network Rail thinks.

You'll be in for a pleasant surprise then ;). Summer sees the signalling being done which should allow the platforms to be reconnected later this year although depending on timing maybe 2010 but in the not too distant future once the signalling is done.

I should have said yes, Snow Hill will act as terminus for trains from one direction and Moor Street for trains from the other i.e. Coventry and Wolverhampton.

Well that's good news. How long has it taken install a single set of points to connect a couple of tracks to the main lines, seven years? I still don't understand how trains from Coventry are ever going to arrive at Moor Street's terminal platforms unless they first go to Leamington Spa, reverse there, and then travel to Brum via Solihull! A new north-facing junction at Bordesley would allow trains from Tamworth to be diverted into Moor St. but not those from Coventry.

All these expensive proposals could have been avoided if only BCC and Network Rail had had the foresight to put their resources into Grand Central station instead of throwing money at cosmetic improvements to New Street and then realising they still have to find other costly ways of diverting trains away from that station. Too late now, I know, but why is it that ad hoc patching up is always preferred to a grand projet in the U.K.? Heathrow Airport is another prime example of this sort of thinking.

The viaduct is wide enough for more than 2 lines and the capacity is increased markedly past Bordesley Station.

Found this image of Oslo's proposed new station from Building Design which has some curvy arched flourishes like ours and the above.

Revamped Oslo Central Station aims to unify city.
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=781&storycode=3126048
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/Pictures/web/i/h/v/Stasjonsall__enWEB.jpg

I love the roof pattern in the Nerw Street plans. It is possibly the better if not the best feature in the entire design.

Looks like roofs seem to be the centre of attention in station designs nowadays.. here are a few more thats happening across the world..

New, New Dehi Station design..
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/2850/ndlspv7.jpg

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/7005/futurendlsnf2.jpg

Beijing South Station..

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08sFah0eHi8O9/610x.jpg

Lisbon Station..

http://www.thelisbonconnection.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/oriente-station-expo.jpg

Shibuya Station Tokyo..
http://static.wallpaper.com/images/206_ad08_as_am090708_f.jpg

http://ecoworldly.com/files/2008/12/shibuya-station-center-from-above.jpg

and now for some resemblence..

Beijing South Gate Park station..

http://img08.beijing2008.cn/20080718/Img214462459.jpg

New Delhi's roof looks amazing.

I like Beijing South Gate Park.

Shows what can be done even with no natural light. Could do something exciting on the platform level.

Fab pictures Fusionist.

From planning. Decision on Ladywood House deferred.


Application number
C/05852/08/FUL

Date application received
13/11/2008

Date application registered
13/11/2008

Date application decided
05/02/2009

Location
Stephenson Street, Ladywood House, Birmingham, B2 4DH

Proposal
Change of use from former office accomadation to a 335 bedroom hotel with restaurant & bar area and alterations

Status
Deferred by Committee

All these expensive proposals could have been avoided if only Snow Hill station hadn't been demolished in the first place, allowing New Street to continue to operate at a more relaxed level.

;)

So when do we actually predict a date for the start of this? Seems like The V Tower will be built before this or am i just too impatient :)

In 2023 someone will say we would have started in 2009 but we waited for the results of the enquiry of the monorail to the airport, and then when that was delayed we had that problem with the stockmarket thingy again, and so we ran out of money in 2012, and that's why it will start next year.

Looks like roofs seem to be the centre of attention in station designs nowadays..

Haven’t roofs always been at the centre of station design?