DA is now up.

Application: A002163185 (http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/masterview/modules/applicationmaster/default.aspx?page=wrapper&key=A002163185)

Elevations of the 3 tallest towers:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/chrismayhew59/buranda01.jpg

Site Plan:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/chrismayhew59/buranda02.jpg

Masterplan - with Eastern Busway tunnel on the right:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/chrismayhew59/buranda03.jpg

http://members.optusnet.com.au/chrismayhew59/buranda04.jpg

This is such a huge development for suburban Brisbane! With Phoenix just up thye road this will become an extremly dense and vibrant area.

The development also includes a Woolworths and Big W.

Yeah, this is a massive development, and could really set a great precedent for TOD's in Brisbane. After the success of Emporium, I have a lot of faith in Anthony John Group.

The project also includes a cinema complex and hotel.

Wow, this is big, I've been waiting on that ugly abandoned service station going for years. There are a few houses around there, did they just buy them from the owners one by one until they had the set, monopoly style?

This is huge.

There's already a Woolworths at Buranda, I wonder if they've realised :lol:

glad that close down patrol station is out of the way :)
let just pray to the council will let this happen

They have already had a huge amount of talks with council and State agencies. Something here will be approved IMO.

Damnit! You're faster than me!

ANTHONYJOHNGROUP have owned this corner for years and have obviously negotiated with the current owners of the houses around and have planned with government/council.
I am giddy with excitement over this project because it will be quality all the way. They are by far one of my favourite developers! It will improve the whole area not to mention will be the spur Stones Corner needs to be one of Brisbane's best retail strips.

About time too, Stones Corner has dived sharply in the last 15 years.

The Brisbane Times are running an article complaining about the 18st tower in Phoenix... wait until they hear about the 32st tower just down the road lol!

Well what can I say, this is fantastic. :cheers:

Looks good. Bit of a mess, that area, certainly needs something happening there.

Couple of things: What's with the parking? Holy crap there's a lot of surface parking, and there's even more underground - can we rename the title to Buranda Village COD (car oriented development)? Having skyscrapers facing a railway and busway station doesn't automatically qualify the development as 'transit oriented'.

Another thing, they destroyed the pedestrian link that was Gillingham Street - now people get to walk through all that yummy parking spaces! Would be better if Gillingham Street was converted into a pedestrian mall, sort of like what the Eastern Busway project is doing with Edith and Beata Street at Stones Corner...

I'm not against this development, just modify the ground level to be more pedestrian/cycling friendly! Plus there's quite a few pieces of literature concerning the high cost of free (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23885956-7583,00.html) and TOD/parking arrangements (http://transitorienteddevelopment.dot.ca.gov/PDFs/Parking%20and%20TOD%20Report.pdf)

The Brisbane Times complaining link: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/gabba-locals-concerned-by-emporiumstyle-development/2008/09/25/1222217290514.html

And the 'Gabba draft local plan: http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:BASE::pc=PC_3082

^^ I agree they could have kept some form of Gillingham Street, even if it's just the name and a laneway.


I went through the documents, and it didn't mention anything about green roofs. These are pretty evident in those pictures, does anybody know anything more about this? I think it's a fantastic concept, and especially new for Brisbane. And does anybody know what sort of green star rating they're aiming for, if at all?

And the 'Gabba draft local plan: http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:BASE::pc=PC_3082

This is just outside the Gabba local plan's area is it not?

Yes, and that Brisbane Times article is talking about a different development.

Should make a nice change to this view

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5874/p7050024wq3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Wow!!!!!! Brisbane is just going gangbusters, exciting times in the next few years with all these TOD's popping up around the place.

Couple of things: What's with the parking? Holy crap there's a lot of surface parking, and there's even more underground - can we rename the title to Buranda Village COD (car oriented development)?


no way!! have you looked at how many trip generators they have on this site? they need all of the carparks!!

i was looking at the DA and they have only allowed 25% of the usual carparks required for retail (ie. 1 car per 80sqm of retail.. the usual rate is 1 car per 20sqm!).

i'm concerned that this could turn into another emporium where it is absolutely impossible to get a carpark and the whole development turns into one big traffic jam with people circling around and around the carpark trying to find an empty spot!

convinence retail (supermarket, pharmacy, butcher, etc) might be able to get away with very few cars as people are comfortable stopping in on their way home from work and then carrying their shopping home on the bus.. but they are planning a DDS (big w) which is definitely a car-based journey. and i'm fairly sure that they'd be planning boutique emporium-style retail, which is a weekend destination.. which again, is a car-based journey, because people don't take the bus when they are going out to spend $500 on a dress.

Hopefully that house full of squatters will be torn down...... :banana:.

It would be great for the area, but i see a major traffic issue.

The area at present is at breaking point and adding this to the mix will cause more heart ache.

I have lived in this area for 30 years and seen many an accident at that roundabout.

If council approve I just hope the proceed with the upgrades for O'Keefe street and Logan rd. If not we will see a major bottle neck all the way to Cooparoo.
Council had originally planned to upgrade the round about and widen the bridge, but this seems to have stalled majorly over the past few years.

Hopefully that house full of squatters will be torn down...... :banana:.

It would be great for the area, but i see a major traffic issue.

The area at present is at breaking point and adding this to the mix will cause more heart ache.

I have lived in this area for 30 years and seen many an accident at that roundabout.

If council approve I just hope the proceed with the upgrades for O'Keefe street and Logan rd. If not we will see a major bottle neck all the way to Cooparoo.
Council had originally planned to upgrade the round about and widen the bridge, but this seems to have stalled majorly over the past few years.

They need to overcome the flooding issues as well. I've seen it completely underwater - the flood of March 9 2001.

j

Hopefully that house full of squatters will be torn down...... :banana:.

It would be great for the area, but i see a major traffic issue.

The area at present is at breaking point and adding this to the mix will cause more heart ache.

I have lived in this area for 30 years and seen many an accident at that roundabout.

If council approve I just hope the proceed with the upgrades for O'Keefe street and Logan rd. If not we will see a major bottle neck all the way to Cooparoo.
Council had originally planned to upgrade the round about and widen the bridge, but this seems to have stalled majorly over the past few years.


I'm pretty sure the corner of Logan Road and O'Keefe Street will become traffic lights regardless of what the plans say. Also, I believe a great majority of the trips created in vehicles will be contra-flow.

I believe this to be much better than lots of smaller developments further out.

I also believe we need to get cracking of a liught rail run between here and the RBA via the Story Bridge. Especially with Phoenix up the road!









Second 'mega-development' for city's south
Shannon Molloy | September 26, 2008 - 10:48AM (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/business/second-megadevelopment-for-citys-south/2008/09/26/1222217481406.html)



Thousands of new residents, workers and shoppers could soon flood the inner-city suburb of Buranda if a large-scale urban village, featuring buildings up to 32 storeys high, is approved by Brisbane City Council.

The Anthony John Group (AJG) this week lodged an application to transform a parcel of former industrial land on Logan Road, south of the city, into a mega-development.

Dubbed Buranda Village, the site would be home to eight buildings comprising residential apartments, office space, a hotel, a cinema complex and sprawling retail outlets.

With the local rail station and South East Busway flanking the block, the project has become the latest transit-oriented development proposal.

The application comes on the back of another proposal last week by the Buranda Property Group to build an Emporium-style urban village on a site further along Logan Road.

However, AJG's planned community is on a much larger scale, with more density than some of the city's biggest developments.

In total, Buranda Village would be home to two office buildings of six-storeys and 23-storeys, five apartment buildings ranging from seven-storeys to a whopping 32-storeys and a 15-storey boutique hotel.

The project's 886 apartments would represent almost double the residents of the Vision Tower development on Mary Street in the CBD, which will be Brisbane's tallest building at 78-storeys when complete.

It will offer more combined office space than the entire 400 George Street high-rise development, while its retail component - including a Woolworths supermarket and cinema - is almost double the size of the Wintergarden Shopping Centre in Queen Street Mall.

The Gabba ward councillor Helen Abrahams said the developer had been in consultation with the council's Urban Renewal Taskforce in preparing its plan.

"This is a very unique site with major busway infrastructure and a railway line together in an area that has been identified for increased density," Cr Abrahams said.

However, there would need to be a significant investment in public transport in order for Buranda Village to be considered a successful transit development, she said.

Prospective residents and visitors would also need to be encouraged to utilise the bus or train, and not drive to one of the development's 1400 car parks.

"Those 1400 cars from the designated car spaces will not be able to come onto the road in peak hour and get to their destination... we will need mroe buses and more train carriages," she said.

While Cr Abrahams acknowledged some existing residents could be concerned about the development's tall buildings, there would be more emphasis on its attributes at eye-level.

"What I think is more relevant is the number of cars coming into the area and the amenity of this development... public space at ground level is what people will judge this on."

The nearby Stones Corner shopping precinct was a significant part of the city's character and would also need to be protected, she said.

"One of the most important concerns would be that the new retail does not take away from the Stones Corner precinct... which is tremendous and has been around for many years."

While the site falls outside the council's new Woolloongabba Neighbourhood Plan, which will allow increased building heights in the area, its transport focus will likely weigh in the developer's favour.

AJG proposes to develop the site in three stages and over several years.

They need to overcome the flooding issues as well. I've seen it completely underwater - the flood of March 9 2001.
j

They'll just pay the council to move the 1 in 100 year flood line.

Seen this happen way too often with these types of constructions.

^^I can guarentee you this isn't the case. The carparks are below sea level. There will be sophisticated pumping and level changes here.

"One of the most important concerns would be that the new retail does not take away from the Stones Corner precinct... which is tremendous and has been around for many years."
Tremendous is not a word I would use to describe Stones Corner.

definitely not enough carparks for this thing..

retail is at 1:80, it should be at 1:20!!

^^Did you want to encourage traffic congestion?????

There is a reason the development is located so close to both bus and rail, it minimises the need for carparks.

Also the development incorporates only about 40-50 carparks less than what the CityPlan asks for.

I want to see less than a 1000 carparks only!

no, i don't want to encourage traffic congestion. but i dont want to see a shopping center where the carpark is chocked full of cars circling around trying to find a parking space either.

go to emporium on a thursday/friday/saturday/sunday night.. you can barely get in there off ann st because all of the driveways are full of cars circling around trying to find a carpark.

this development has a shitload of retail. and for this type of retail cars are usually allowed at 1:20sqm NLA.. they have only 25% of the usual rate!!

it might work if all they had was a woolies.. but with a big w, cinemas and boutique retail there will be shitloads of people driving there. it is unavoidable. people don't go to big w to buy a bbq and then take it home on the bus. and they don't go to a boutique fashion store and spend $500 on a dress and carry it home on the bus either. they all drive. where are they going to park??

Well I can get in there no problem. I just walk down from the station.

i'd like to see you walk home carrying a bbq :)

Tremendous is not a word I would use to describe Stones Corner.

she has to be nice to her constituents.....

i'd like to see you walk home carrying a bbq :)

*trying to imagine putting the bbq in the bus*

*trying to imagine putting the bbq in the bus*.

If its a low floor then why not:lol:. Not ideal but not impossible.

it's called getting the bbq delivered

i've never heard of the emporium so i had to look it up on the internet, then i looked at it in google earth - i couldn't help laughing so much, all those beautifully paved areas for parking spaces; and for some reason i can't see if the emporium faces the street? all the photos are of the awesome seating area right next to the parking spaces in the internal streets (somehow car exhausts adds flavour?) [is this some sort of exclusive/private enclave in the middle of the valley? top points for integrating with the rest of the city....]

^^ you have to pay extra fee for it to get delivered
so its cheaper for me to catch a bus there and get it myself :P

yeah but you save money on maintaining/using a car (reminds me of that episode of The Chasers where they tried to save money on a removalists by bringing everything on the bus! :D)

no, i don't want to encourage traffic congestion. but i dont want to see a shopping center where the carpark is chocked full of cars circling around trying to find a parking space either.

go to emporium on a thursday/friday/saturday/sunday night.. you can barely get in there off ann st because all of the driveways are full of cars circling around trying to find a carpark.

this development has a shitload of retail. and for this type of retail cars are usually allowed at 1:20sqm NLA.. they have only 25% of the usual rate!!

it might work if all they had was a woolies.. but with a big w, cinemas and boutique retail there will be shitloads of people driving there. it is unavoidable. people don't go to big w to buy a bbq and then take it home on the bus. and they don't go to a boutique fashion store and spend $500 on a dress and carry it home on the bus either. they all drive. where are they going to park??

I have a few comments.

Emporium has garbage public transport when compared to this, so there is no comparison in that regard.

2nd. How many times do you buy BBQ's?? Really, with large items that can't be reduced to flatpacks, people often get it delivered anyway because many cars aren't big enough to fit them in anyway.

Cinemas are often filled with people that can't drive anyway and it really isn't hard to catch a train or a bus to the cinemas.

I have managed to live for the last 3 years without a car and have been involved with buying dresses, furniture supermarket shopping etc.

If the parking really is an issue, then people will just go elsewhere. I think you'll find though with 2000 people in this development alone, they will have many walk up customers.

I think the proposed number of carparks is adequate, perhaps even a bit more than necessary based on the PT available currently (even moreso when the boggo road and eastern busways are complete). I'm really not a fan of surface carparks, though i understand why the developers wish to include them. This is meant to be a TOD, and we should be aiming to make it successful for that purpose rather than as a generic car-orientated centre.

it's called getting the bbq delivered

i've never heard of the emporium so i had to look it up on the internet, then i looked at it in google earth - i couldn't help laughing so much, all those beautifully paved areas for parking spaces; and for some reason i can't see if the emporium faces the street? all the photos are of the awesome seating area right next to the parking spaces in the internal streets (somehow car exhausts adds flavour?) [is this some sort of exclusive/private enclave in the middle of the valley? top points for integrating with the rest of the city....]

Quite a bit of the retail does face the street - have a look on Streetview between Brookes, Ann, Wickham street and Murri Way. The majority of restuarants face internally (there is serious traffic on either side, so this isn't entirely stupid) but the roadways and parks don't' exactly make this area 'pretty'. Still I can't remember noticing the car sounds/exhaust when I've eaten there. While not quite an enclave, it is hollow and somewhat distant from the action in the rest of the valley and PT.

i'd like to see you walk home carrying a bbq :)

Don't these places deliver big ticket items? Let go of your car, fool.

Don't kid yourself. Realistically very few are going to catch public transport to shop or eat at this precinct. The only people who will use it are those that live or work there. 98% of people who do not reside in this part of town would not even know which pt routes to take to get them there.

Don't kid yourself. Realistically very few are going to catch public transport to shop or eat at this precinct. The only people who will use it are those that live or work there. 98% of people who do not reside in this part of town would not even know which pt routes to take to get them there.

Anyone who uses the Cleveland line will know Buranda station, as would anyone who uses the South East Busway.

Part of the idea with these TODs is to change people's habits of driving everywhere.

TOD's will attract residents who will want to live there to give them transport options to the city but they will not attract outsiders for infrequent visits for shopping and dining if they expect them to use pt. It just doesn't happen. People will still want to use their vehicles to get there.

Don't these places deliver big ticket items? Let go of your car, fool.

now now, no need to get nasty.

the bbq example may be a bit extreme.. but fact of the matter is that people don't go to DDS stores via public transport, nor do they go to high end retail via public transport.. and this center will have lots of those types of retail.

if it was primarily convinence retail (ie. stop in on your way home from work) then i'd think it was brilliant.

i agree that we need to encourage people to "leave the car behind"... but i struggle to see why someone would visit this center by bus when they can visit garden city (mt gravatt) just down the road and park anywhere they like. by not providing adequate carparking they are either going to: increase congestion in the surrounding streets; or create a retail center that fails miserably. both of which we'd prefer to avoid.

^^How many people drive to retail in the CBD where there is high end shopping and DDS's?

Judging by the ammount of cars that you see in the parking areas of a weekend vs the emptyiness of the buses and trains I would say quiet a few (majority) drive into the city.

^^And during the week? It isn't as if they don't sell anything then. To me it just proves that if you provide car parks and PT, people will drive, however if you provide very few parks and PT most people will take PT.

Woah!! I just saw the renders. This project will be huge. A much needed facelift for the area. Looks like they will be demolishing houses and shops for this. A prime location though with busway and rail services.

If I want a bbq I will drive to the local big box shopping mall, why would I want to go all the way to B'da just for a bbq. When I go out for high end stuff, such as cafes restaurants, I'm buggered if I am going to take the car and get done for drink driving. I never drive the car into the city, too much of a hassle. Emporium is a traffic island stuck between two traffic sewers.

^^And during the week? It isn't as if they don't sell anything then. To me it just proves that if you provide car parks and PT, people will drive, however if you provide very few parks and PT most people will take PT.

Realistically you won't get people who are not from the area to get pt to Buranda. You may to the city but the city is pretty much a direct route along most pt lines. Buranda will require multiple changes which 98% wof the population from outside the area will not be able to follow or be willing to put up with the innefficiency and additional time they will have to allow. If inadequate parking isn't provided people will just go elsewhere. Simple fact.

Emporium works because of its parking and you rarely see people using pt to get there.

definitely not enough carparks for this thing..

retail is at 1:80, it should be at 1:20!!

I'm sorry but experience tells us that the above is absolutely correct.

No developer wants to finish a development and be left with a a shit fight in the carpark with the Tenants and Customers. Why take that risk? Simply removing carparks is too simple minded.

Anyway, if the TOD concept is embraced then the carpark will sit empty. Then, eventually, the empty parts of the carpark will be converted to other uses. Problem solved.

Emporium works because of its parking and you rarely see people using pt to get there.

That's because Emporium's PT sucks. With this one you have heavy rail and busway at the doorstep.

We'll see how it pans out. I'd be surprised (though pleased) if council supports such a beast of a development like this without some drop in density.

I'm sorry but experience tells us that the above is absolutely correct.

No developer wants to finish a development and be left with a a shit fight in the carpark with the Tenants and Customers. Why take that risk? Simply removing carparks is too simple minded.

Anyway, if the TOD concept is embraced then the carpark will sit empty. Then, eventually, the empty parts of the carpark will be converted to other uses. Problem solved.

if the TOD is embraced you may also have plenty of people using the centre as a park and ride stop as well

^^Park and rides are completely opposite land uses to TOD's.

Planning 101.

Either way, you do not need 1400 carparks and you do not need surface level carparks.

^^Park and rides are completely opposite land uses to TOD's.

Planning 101.

Either way, you do not need 1400 carparks and you do not need surface level carparks.

my point was its highly likely people are going to use this as a park and ride facility as well due to the proximity of the pt, putting added pressure on the carpark

With most of it being underground, and therefore lockable outside of retail hours, and with the surface carparking being timed (I assume), I very much doubt it. They may even charge for parking and offer it free for 3 hours if you buy a certain dollars worth of goods.

Should make a nice change to this view

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5874/p7050024wq3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This was the massing picture from the Urban Design report, its not the exact development, however gives an idea of the size being looked at.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5117/burandatodve7.jpg


Also I noticed there is a library attached for the second floor of one of the buildings. Presumably that might mean that this group have talked to the BCC about replacing the current Stones Corner library with a new one in this development. Which argues well for an approval of some sort.

^^They have talked significantly with BCC and referal agencies. I don't think height or density will be a problem.

^
at least until community opposition is guaged. i'm getting the impression that the council is open to this project as long as there aren't massive protests.

note that the library isn't a certainty even if the development goes ahead, just a little sweetner the developer has come up. very similar to the situation in Garden Towers (KP) in fact.

It may look out of place now, but when the Logan Road alignment is built up it wont. It will also be a great visual reference when traveling up Old Cleveland Road. Think of it this way you have spot centres throughout greater Brisbane, think Mt. Gravatt and Chermside so it seems silly to not make use of this site and make it a true TOD. It will also link the higher density around the PA/Buranda and the future skyline of Stones Corner. There are alot of developers who have bought into Stones Corner and Logan Road properties just waiting for the area/s to pick up.

Clearly i'm all for this development, it just makes planning sense.

Yeah the development makes planning sense, but the details doesn't. Parking-Parking-Parking-Parking-Parking, this is the central issue to this development.

http://www.translink.com.au/qt/translin.nsf/files/070917_map_network_busway_large.gif/$file/070917_map_network_busway_large.gif

Please point out to me where Buranda is? Now think, when this network is realised, there would be ~15 minute frequencies on dedicated corridors (meaning no fumbling around with traffic) - which means that the 30 minute radius from Buranda is ... (someone will have to look up a timetable for me)

Also, you don't place park and ride facilities near city centres, park and ride facilities blight public transport stops. TODs and park and rides compete for land spaces as well. Park and ride facilities are appropriate for outer suburbs where feeder buses and local bus services are uneconomical, but within the 10-15km circle of a major city (cough, Brisbane) the densities well and truly does support viable, frequent, reliable public transport.

Public Transport is in competition with cars. Providing with one, erodes the effectiveness of the other. At the moment Public Transport is seen as the higher moral choice (lower emissions, less-ish noise, improved safety, overall net reduction in social costs...) - but the status quo (political will, current urban character, consumer preference) firmly stands by the car culture.

Access to public transport stops/nodes must conform to a hierarchy.
1st: Walking
2nd: Cycling
3rd: Local buses/Feeder Buses
4th: Kiss 'n' Rides
5th: Park 'n' Rides

Poor locating of park n rides can replace walking and cycling with short-car trips - bad outcome.

Oh and the reason why I'm so 'interested' in this development is because I use the Cleveland Line -> SE Busway to get to Griffth - and this area is something I see all the time. Hell, get the developers to pay to upgrade the look of Buranda Station in lieu of road infrastructure charges... (that's if they adopt a minimal parking regime)

lol references...

Parkhurst, G. 1995, ‘Park and ride: could it lead to an increase in car traffic?’ Transport Policy, vol. 2, no. 1, pp. 15-23

Parkhurst, G. 2000, ‘Influence of bus-based park and ride on users’ car traffic’, Transport Policy, vol. 7, no. 2, pp. 159-172.

Shoup, D. C. 2006, ‘Cruising for parking’, Transport Policy, vol. 13, no. 6, pp. 479 – 486.

Shoup, D. 2005, The High Cost of Free Parking, Planners Press, Chicago.

Don't kid yourself. Realistically very few are going to catch public transport to shop or eat at this precinct. The only people who will use it are those that live or work there.
^Quote from 'Messed Up'

That's relatively true, but the preferred outcome would be people walking to the precinct (representing the majority of users), then people using public transport then at the end, as the last preference (of the preferred access outcomes) private vehicle. The idea of mixing land uses is to encourage walking from nearby areas (~400m)

^^ Good post. I too would like to see fewer car parks, but I wonder if most of the parks are for residents anyway? The article talked about them being "designated", but not what for. But this is definitely the type of development needed in Brisbane.

Bit close to the freeway though, might noise be problem?

^^Council will mandate that residents and visitors for residents have designated carparks. They will also probably have designated carparks for the retail and office, however I wish that these were shared.

I doubt noise would be a big issue. You have other towers such as Evolution and some in Kangaroo Point and Southbank are on the Freeway and they seem to be fine. This is the western side also so I think that there could be a bit of shielding from the Freeway and sun.

Either way, you do not need 1400 carparks and you do not need surface level carparks.

i think you are grasping at the 1400 figure because it makes a good headline. but because there is a huge amount of developed area on this site the carparks are needed as a consequence!

it would be better to look at the ratio of carparks:area.. and then draw conclusions from that. so..

retail: 1:80sqm gfa (very tight, usually 1:20 or 1:25)
cinema: 1:10 seats (pretty tight, usually 1:5)

office: 1:50sqm gfa (about right for fringe office)

hotel: 1 per four rooms (can't comment)

1bdrm unit: 1 space (about right)
2bdrm unit: 1 space (usually 1.5 spaces per unit)
3bdrm unit: 2 spaces (about right)
visitors: 0.8 per unit (usually 1 per unit)

The cinemas are about right IMO and the Office and retail could share carparks as their peak times are not at the same time. Infact I think the Office could be reduced closure to CBD rates of about 1:200 as it is pretty easy to get to Buranda from almost anywhere in Brisbane.

i think there could be room for limited sharing between retail and office.. but the problem is.. what happens if one of your office employees shows up for work and the shops are really busy and you can't get a park??

Then the businesses/body corporate need to invest in car sharing of business cars so that their workers can catch PT and use work cars during the day. (Our 14st Office tower has a grand total of 10 car parks and we can seem to manage with no dramas at all.)

Also, most Offices start before the retail is even open, so unless you start at about 10am or later this will be no problem at all.

This precinct when developed will continue to increase PT availability, however currently it is easy to get a bus or train from almost anywhere in Brisbane, and if you need to transfer, the frequencies are so high, this should also not be an issue.

^^ Why must future planning be based on idealism?? It does not work in reality! It's idealistic to make car sharing policies, to have large purchase items delivered, for everyone to come by bus or train, or even to pretend that cars will not be extremely popular. Some of these things may happen, but all of them? NO!

I don't care what happens in an idealistic situation. I care about what WILL happen because of what DOES happen in every similar situation in Brisbane. There will be lots of cars... Regardless... Carparks are important.

^^There are some developments in Vienna and a few other cities that provide parking only for share cars and they have been extremly popular. This isn't idealism. This is happening now and it is being accepted in other countries.

There will be enough people in Brisbane to warrant it for this development to then have it start spreading across the city wider. I for one am able to live without a car without this help. With help it would be even easier!

Living without a car compromises your lifestyle. People will not be giving up their love of the vehicle and the freedom it provides anytime soon. Rightly or wrongly it is ingrained in our culture. We can try to force people to go to Buranda using PT by not providing parking but the reality is they just wont go there and will go to an area that is more convenient and accessable.

^^I have found that living without a car has increased my lifestyle not comprimised it. I have more time because I manage my time better and I have more money to spend on things that I want, rather than a car. Everything I need is withing walking or high quality PT distance away and if I desperately need a car I use a cab or hire one. This is still cheaper.

Yeah it is cheaper to not have a car. But you instantly have limited your employment opportunities as you now have to work where there is direct access to pt. If you want to do day trips you have to pre plan them and organise it around car hire. If you want to visit friends in the burbs then you will have to cab it which could make the trip unnaffordable. Your visits to the supermarket will be more frequent.

I have friends who don't own a vehicle and any activities with them generally revolve around them either free-loading a ride or it has to be within walking distance of their place.

Yes a car is a luxury but it won't be given up by society.

^^I ensure I live close to work. There are few salary jobs that require you to own a car.

Car hire is easy enough. You just walk down, fill out the forms and take the car. No problem.

We have no drama walking a km or 2 from the station or bus stop to visit friends and family and we have done it. It isn't unaffordable at all.

Our shopping trips often leave us about $200 poorer each time. Plus we don't use shopping bags and we always walk/PT it home

Yes a car is a luxury and one day most of us will be forced to reduce or eliminate its use!

We just need to try harder!

We just need to try harder!

you are a great example for us all.. the problem is that you are just an example. hardly anyone in seq is living a lifestyle like yours!!

you are a great example for us all.. the problem is that you are just an example. hardly anyone in seq is living a lifestyle like yours!!

I wonder why, could it possibly be the urban form Brisbane has taken!

^^Precisely what I am trying to say. I actually know quite a few people, and they happen to be living in these style of developments.

Funny!

you are a great example for us all.. the problem is that you are just an example. hardly anyone in seq is living a lifestyle like yours!!

I try. I actually hate driving and perfer to walk and take PT. I live close to the CBD but work on the Bayside. I take public transport about 3 to 4 times per week depending on my schedule in winter. Its pretty good from where I am because I'm on my way out while others are coming in. No crowds for me.

My only problem is once it gets hotter I'll be driving more and more. Its too hot to walk to Central or Brunswick St Station in the mornining without DLS. Winters fine but walking in the hottest part of the morning even for 5 minutes is bad.

Non DLS means Queensland has become the fattest state in the fattest country. Starting work just one hour earlier would mean people could walk to work in cooler conditions and do more physical excersise after work - but thats another topic. I could rant on about DLS for ages.

J

Well 65% car ownership statistic looks like car dependency and oil addiction that we are going to have to get over. Car use is embedded in town planning regulations based on old paradigms presuming 600 years oil supply left. Global warming and pollution issues get ignored. If I want to go to a big box mega mall there are heaps near me in the suburbs. I use PT every day and read a newspaper.

If you think that oil diminishing will kill off the motor vehicle you are mistaken. Technology already exists to provide vehicles with minimal dependancy on oil and at some stage these vehicle will be more economical than cars that rely on an internal combustion engine. Peple simply will not give up that freedom.

^^I don't think it will kill off the motor vehicle at all, but I do think there will be a good chunck of time where private vehicles will cost more than what most can afford and they will be forced not to have one for a number of years.

Great development IF they get rid of more of the carparking. Perhaps BCC should provide some sort of discount/assistance if some was removed to compensate the developers. Or allow them to build XYZ more with slightly less spaces. No idea.

Force people to use PT more. As people know people living in this place, or visiting this place, the discussions they have about "getting around without a car" shift car usage to PT usage etc etc..

It's a starting block. This is a perfect opportunity to start a significant mode change by doing something different. Next to busway and train station. C'mon peoples!!!!!!! (not the forumers - BCC)

these little 'higher' density resi/retail hubs are great, but they are surrounded by great swathes of low density dwellings - what Brisbane really needs is a total overhaul of its planning code/restrictions - ie. dump demolition controls and increase allowable gfa's on blanket areas within 10k's of the cbd.

Take a look at any aerial photo and see how sparse the housing development really is in the 'inner' 5-10k ring. Its an absolute joke. More apartments, more townhouses, less freestanding property - its a no brainer.

Overall population density is the key to the success of this type of development - I mean, really, I'm not gonna travel from Samford to Buranda am I?

I travel from Sunnybank to Stafford for work by public transport. I could drive but choose not to.

Demolition controls under CityPlan 2000 piss me off too, but I don't think they should be totally abandoned.

Having said that, we desperately need more Low-medium Density Residential land in Brisbane, with the Gross Floor Area controls relaxed.

You are a minority and a very patient person then.

Why would I want to sit in traffic bored shitless?

I'd rather sit on a bus listening to music on my headphones and reading.

Why would you want to sit on a train or bus for an even longer period living your life by a timetable being bored shitless.

Sitting in traffic isn't a waste of my life? Oh shit, I've been wasting my life! *goes for a drive*

Depends on your perspective. Lots of people do drive for pleasure. The point is what people find boring and wasteful varies. some people would rather drive in congested traffic for 40 mins a day less boring and wasteful than spending an hour a day stranded on public transport. That extra 20-30 mins of free time driving a car provides them could be highly valuable and far less wasteful of their life..

Absolutely! Sitting in traffic is so rewarding... the stopping, the starting, the lane changes, the swerving, it's orgasmic! I could go on...

Yes but it wastes less of your overall day. Some people would say sitting on a cramped train or bus jerking from from front to back is much more wasteful...

Whatever floats your boat...

Exactly, everyone values their time differently. Trying to force people and tell them how they should organize and live their live is a naive and useless exercise. If you want people to use pt then provide them with a decent, reliable, easy to understand and efficient service. Don't be deluded into thinking they will use one inefficient infrastructure by making an alternative even less useable. Few people outside of a 5km radius will chose to use pt to get to Buranda for any other reason than work.

You're right. Why should we create environments that actually encourage public transport use and discourage car dependency? Why should we take away the freedom of people to waste the world's resources in any way they want? Why should we regulate business? Why should we have warning labels? Why should we have common sense? Why should we influence people's behavior in any way?

hahaha we have the same number of posts!

We should create environment's that encourage pt. But this has to be done by creating better pt infrastructure. Not by forcing people into cramped trains and unreliable hard to follow buses by having a failed road network. If the pt network is efficient and works well people do and will use it. If the pt and road system are both innefficient people will choose to live somewhere else.

Likewise if Buranda has poor parking people will chose to shop somewhere more accessable.

The public transport infrastructure already exists. Buranda is one of the most transport advantaged location in Brisbane. We have buses every 10 minutes in peak from places as far out at Shailer Park and Marsden. Services are improving and network inefficiencies are gradually being addressed. Public transport usage has followed.

Depends on your perspective. Lots of people do drive for pleasure. The point is what people find boring and wasteful varies. some people would rather drive in congested traffic for 40 mins a day less boring and wasteful than spending an hour a day stranded on public transport. That extra 20-30 mins of free time driving a car provides them could be highly valuable and far less wasteful of their life..

You don't consider sitting in traffic, with your car at idle, to be in ANY way or form WASTEFUL? Not even just a little bit wasteful? To anything, not just your own time?

How would any non local ever know what bus to get or how to get there? It may be easy for transport nerds from this forum to figure out but the trouble with buses is they are very difficult to follow and know where to get onto for non-city bound routes. People have enough trouble work out one bus route but if they have to make a transfer as part of their trip they will be even less likely to use it. Remember we are talking about trying to attract people to the area that won't be going there on a daily basis.

You don't consider sitting in traffic, with your car at idle, to be in ANY way or form WASTEFUL? Not even just a little bit wasteful? To anything, not just your own time?

I don't drive to work. I catch either a train or bus.

The reality is people have a shortage of time and will opt to drive over getting pt even if it only saves them 5 mins of their time every day. They don't have to live by a time table. They will tell you they prefer the comfort of their own vehicle to sharing an uncomfortable seat in a bus with the 'plebs' of society.

13 12 30
www.translink.com.au on their phones/Blackberry/iPhone/whatever

Timetables and electronic signage at bus stops and train stations.

Information counters in the city and suburban centres.

Last time I checked I didn't need a time table when buses pass my stop in peak every 10 minutes.

Not good enough. Train stations are much easier to follow than buses. I even struggle to work out which buses to get and where from. If you are not a local and you were at Southbank bus station how would you wether you were supposed to get on either the Garden City bus or Fairfield Gardens if you were going to Buranda. There are few clear and understandable maps.

These systems are unreliable and not everyone is that tech savvy that they will be looking up tranlink on their iphone if they have one.

That's why there's a hotline. Amost everyone has phones.

You've got to ask yourself if somebody managed to find their way to Buranda Station they are probably capable of reading a timetable or calling a hotline.

You've managed to join a forum and post a pointless shitfight, so clearly you are capable of using a website to find a timetable.

If they have to make a phone call it will most likely be to a cab company. Hence why buses are mostly empty outside of peak times.

There is definately room for a lot of improvement with the pt system in Brisbane.

Then how do you suppose we magically make people know what time to catch a bus? Maybe we can hook everyone up to The Matrix, make them think they have caught a bus and then charge em for the privilege. Then we don't have to waste money providing real services!

For starters you need decent maps showing the stops that each bus route stops at. You need buses to be reliable within a few minutes, instead of having boards which state the 305 arrives at 2.56 yet 2 mins later they 305 apparently disappears having been abducted by aliens leaving you there wasting another 30 mins of your life for the next one. The trains are relatively reliable but unfortunately buses are too slow and fail too often (40%) to give infrequent commuters any real confidence to use them more often.

For starters you need decent maps showing the stops that each bus route stops at. You need buses to be reliable within a few minutes, instead of having boards which state the 305 arrives at 2.56 yet 2 mins later they 305 apparently disappears having been abducted by aliens leaving you there wasting another 30 mins of your life for the next one. The trains are relatively reliable but unfortunately buses are too slow and fail too often (40%) to give infrequent commuters any real confidence to use them more often.

Yeah... and sometimes you have some over eager bus driver racing around to finish his shift early so he can catch a smoke - leaving people who turn up at a stop at the time mentioned on the timetable only to realise the next bus is in an hour - faaaantastic

For starters you need decent maps showing the stops that each bus route stops at. You need buses to be reliable within a few minutes, instead of having boards which state the 305 arrives at 2.56 yet 2 mins later they 305 apparently disappears having been abducted by aliens leaving you there wasting another 30 mins of your life for the next one. The trains are relatively reliable but unfortunately buses are too slow and fail too often (40%) to give infrequent commuters any real confidence to use them more often.

how many routes pass through the Cultural Center station? 67. To include maps for each of those, even grouping together by common trunks on the same map similar to the stuff on translink, would take up a very large amount of space. There is already a map of what routes stop at which of the busway stations (which clears up your busway station to busway station hypothetical), plus a list of where buses stop even outside the system (ie 200 Carindale Heights: Cultural Centre-South Bank-Mater Hill-Woolloongabba-Buranda-Stones Corner...Carindale Heights.) Several of the busway stations further from the city which have routes that depart for local suburbs already have maps. Those going to novel destinations almost always check how to get there before randomly rocking up to a station, regardless of whether it is railstation or a bus station. This is where translink online and the the phone number come in. If my 93 year old neighbour can cope, then I'm sure anyone can.

Your comments about buses failing 40% are absolute nonsense. Even in peak times, my failure rate would be under 5%. Buses almost always arrive on time along busway routes, and are usually not far off it on other routes. Perhaps you havn't lived outside of Brisbane, but our network is exceedingly sucessful and though there are certainly areas to improve they're centered on frequency of service.

Just changed offices. New offices had heaps more carparking, so people who were taking PT before now come by car because there is somewhere to put it. Providing the carparking was the biggest incentive to daily car use.

How would any non local ever know what bus to get or how to get there? It may be easy for transport nerds from this forum to figure out but the trouble with buses is they are very difficult to follow and know where to get onto for non-city bound routes. People have enough trouble work out one bus route but if they have to make a transfer as part of their trip they will be even less likely to use it. Remember we are talking about trying to attract people to the area that won't be going there on a daily basis.

Given that the development is located at the Buranda Bus and Rail stations, I'd imagine it would be an easy destimation (not unlike Central Train Station or Roma Street Station) for Brisbanites and visitors. I respect your views on PT usage but I don't agree with them. I personally (and suspect a majority of people who are PT converts) happily put up with living by timetables. It's better that putting up with traffic jams!!

Some pictures of the site and area taken today, afternoon light not the best on some photos.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3446/p7290005gr8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/812/p7290006sv7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/439/p7290010mf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9494/p7290013gc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3421/p7290017ix9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9248/p7290018dk1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4707/p7290019io3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/7180/p7290023sm2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/9564/p7290025ww9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9189/p7290027tc2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9295/p7290028rf5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6953/p7290029id0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6465/p7290030gu0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

it dosn't look like there is a high population density in the surrounding area, so i doubt many people are going to be walking to the site!

it dosn't look like there is a high population density in the surrounding area, so i doubt many people are going to be walking to the site!

Not at the moment, but the Woolloongabba Local Plan will change that. The Logan Road corridor will be medium to high density resi.

Or they may even catch a bus or train!

Phoenix is within 400m as is the future Stones Corner Busway Station.

For starters you need decent maps showing the stops that each bus route stops at.

That sounds reasonable to me. The maps BT and translink provide are hard enough to find at first, and then dont really give you the info you want. It leaves you hungry like an expensive meal at a classy restaurant. The first thing they could do to improve it is add an actual location map for the bus stops, saying stop xx on Something Rd might be ok for locals, but its not helpful for tourists or people who dont know the area because it gives you no idea where the stop is on the street.

The whole area looks a dump.

its actually not as bad as it looks there

The wide carriageways shown in the photos don't do the area justice. Peeps to Aussie Bhoy for posting them!! Does anyone know how many cars are dedicated to the non-res uses??

The whole area looks a dump.

Mate, it's Trafalgar Square compared to some parts of Brisbane!

Whilst it's not the most marvellous area, the bright side is that it'll be all lovely and new when this TOD goes up :)

if we can fast forward a few years when this project is finish...

has this been approved, or....

has this been approved, or....

DIP have concerns about density, amongst other things. Here's a quote out of a letter to the developer from November last year:

In its present form the proposed development is not consistent with many of the TOD principles set out in the SEQ Regional Plan, and this should be rectified prior to any approval of the application.

You can always read up on it yourself, a link to the application is in the first post.

On the other hand the Pheonix development up the road in Woolloongabba is proceeding well enough, lots of correspondence happening between council and developer there. I expect it will be approved in the next few months. But when it gets built is another matter.

Who cares about the density. If ever there was a spot that deserved it, then this is the one. If they reduce density now, what happens in 20yrs when the suburb of Buranda has doubled in population? They may well be wishing they'd approved it.

This is my first post, but I've been reading posts here for quite some time.

Anthony John Group, held a public information session on this development a few weeks ago. They have produced new plans and a response to council which will be submitted in the next week or so.

There are a lot of changes proposed, but all are good. There will be shops fronting both roads, and the existing roundabout will be upgarded to a signalised intersection. Apparently QR have been working on plans for the upgrade of the Buranda Train Station as well, but I haven't been able to find any plans.

They are still hoping to start construction of this development by the end of 09 or early 2010, the basement works will be tied in with the eastern busway tunnel being constructed through the site. This tunnel is currently scheduled to start construction in Q3 of this year.

Keep an eye out on this one, it still looks promising even in the current market as the smaller apartments will be targetted for sale to first home buyers.

BrisJonno - such a valuable contribution for a first post! Thanks heaps for that information. Very much appreciated. Welcome to SSC :)

Now I'm excited about this.

Yes, thanks BrisJonno. I've been wondering about this one recently so it's nice to hear it hasn't faded into nothingness.

Anymore news on this?
Is it still going ahead?

^Heavy equipment is on site (the old servo) and it looks like they are going to demolish the strip on the North-Eastern side of the round about.

Edit: The shops shown in the 9th pic down AussieBhoy posted on the previous page.

Anthony John Group still haven't replied to the council with the new plans. My guess is that they are modifying them again to suit the discussions coming out of the new eastern corridor plans which include Buranda, Stones Corner and Coorparoo. Since this site is smack in the middle of all this, it makes sense that some delays might occur due to these new local planning studies.

As for the excavation and demolition occurring at the old service station, I think you'll find that this is actually for the start of the eastern busway project, not the Buranda TOD.

AJG have indicated that they want to be excavating at roughly the same time as the eastern busway, but that could be anywhere in the next 6 to 12 months.

The Eastern Busway stage 1 is imminent... They really are set to move full steam ahead. The project is set to start by mid year (only 1-2 months away).

^^Makes sense. Cheers

Just checked on the council application website. PB have withdrawn the current application and are proposing to submita new one for the site in the near future.

What this means is anyones guess. Does anyone have any further information on what is going on with this project?

Looks like the tunnel alignment for the eastern busway under the site has been modified significantly, this is the most likely reason for the need to submit a completely new development application for the site.

How frustrating. I can only hope that's the reason, and there isn't some massive down-scaling of the development!

Though I am surprised at the tunnel alignment changing when work on the Eastern Busway is as good as begun? Surely it's a bit late for major design changes?

With Phoenix being postponed and now this i would say that Council have had strong talks to the major landholders in the area. I would guess that BCC want them to re lodge once the local plan comes into effect or at least is finalsed, who knows there's probably incentives for developers to do this, like lower head works charges and code assessable applications.

The Phoenix DA process has not been postponed. The latest amendments/clarifications to the DA submitted by the developers are currently under consideration by Council according to the public record. I know someone who works on the team and they have been working hard on the proposal for some time now.

There has been no significant change to bulk/density since the original Phoenix DA, in fact a tower has increased a level.

However, when development starts if they get approval is anyones guess.

Can anyone confirm when the new local plan is coming into effect?

It'll be a while. They've only just started.

Probably about 3 years.

ooookkk.... Hopefully they're NOT going to be waiting around!

Any idea where we could find the revised Busway alignment? Latest I can find on the net is dated 18/05/07

http://www.translink.com.au/qt/translin.nsf/index/busway_eastern_publications

The DA is still on for Buranda TOD. Im working on the design team. Just some tinkering around at the moment. Yes the busway did realign a little, but did not impact the scheme (except for the basement). Building heights remain at 100m

You're back! Been far too long since we've had your input.

The DA is still on for Buranda TOD. Im working on the design team. Just some tinkering around at the moment. Yes the busway did realign a little, but did not impact the scheme (except for the basement). Building heights remain at 100m

Awesome news. Thanks for your input. Any other newsworthy items you may be able to divulge are welcomed :)

no pressure...

Awesome news. Thanks for your input. Any other newsworthy items you may be able to divulge are welcomed :)

no pressure...
Well I can tell you from inside the architectural community that times are very tough. There were recently 2 positions open at Wilson architects, over 100 applied. I have friends losing their jobs in other architectural firms every couple weeks. As an indicator of the times, last year I was working on projects to the value of $50million to $1 Billion dollars and now im working only on house renovations.

With regards to Buranda, all I can say is that the realisation of this project is still years away, there is just no money at the moment.

On many projects fees are not being paid, developers are going under. We've had it so good for the past 6 or so years, that people got a bit too complacent. Its gonna be a very dry year in terms of new project DA's.

Dubai, once the architectural playground is now a wreck, architects leaving in droves to return to Australia, dumping their cars at the airport.

Nertheless those with money (ie not loans) are still quietly pushing on with planning for new projects.

That's fanatstic news that there is no amendment to the building heights, looks like we just have to sit back and be patient while we wait until better times arrive.

OLD DA is out,
NEW DA in! A002338252

http://pdonline.brisbane.qld.gov.au/MasterView/modules/applicationmaster/default.aspx?page=wrapper&key=A002338252


http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1103/95672044.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/95672044.jpg/)

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7620/81918558.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/81918558.jpg/)

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4265/90443032.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/90443032.jpg/)

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8373/61490460.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/61490460.jpg/)

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9185/65225527.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/65225527.jpg/)

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/8052/71148416.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/71148416.jpg/)

Looks great. What are the building heights on this one? I can't download pdfs off the council website at the moment for whatever reason.

Fantastic news! Looks like they're basing it off the "successful" Emporium layout. In a weird kind of a way, it has been rather successful, but forumers will criticise it as too car-centric.

Either way, what this will do for the area is just too good for words.

Emporium IS way to car-centric, but I still believe it's a successful development.

Its Called Boulevard.

Looks great. What are the building heights on this one? I can't download pdfs off the council website at the moment for whatever reason.

I too am trying to access the first pdf file. If someone beats me to it it would be great to see new elevations with RL's posted.

Ditto with not being able to access the PDF's. From the glitzy renders though, it looks pretty nice.

Looking good.

Yep, the BCC site is playing up - maybe too many people trying to access it.

God Damm, this is one of the highest quality submissions I've seen in some time (Im' not referring to height or architectual merit).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3625/3633943963_9d1eb682f8_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3376/3634281365_5cc61e596d_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3600/3635090372_47ab4099c9_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3540/3633932721_6423cc96cd_b.jpg

They've amalgamated 43 properties to do this project... That is rather impressive...

Having read the PDFs that are currently working, I change my assessment of this project from fantastic to stratospherically awesome.

How does the Eastern Busway fit into this?

it's a difficult site to TOD properly, given that there's several different focal points and ideally you would want active street frontages both inside the TOD and along O'Keefe Street (to link Stones Corner with the Busway Station)

There is also major capacity constraints for PT which are almost at capacity. They'll have very big issues getting this through BCC, DIP and QTMR also. We will see however I don't like its chances.

^^ Tony Johns usually gets his way - I think this project's chances are quite good.

There's plenty of off-peak and counter-peak capacity and the closeness of the CBD means that people can use the shoulder-peaks more readily - I don't think it will be too much of a problem.

If you would deny this on transport grounds, how could you approve any development anywhere?

Because you have to look at the capacity of the rail and bus network in that location and that there is a high chance this development would exceed that capacity, let alone if all lots in the area overshot density limits by the same amount.

There are also major issues with connectivity to rail and bus and by the looks of the reports there has be no pedestrian modelling etc.

There are many more issues than just density = PT benefit.

I think it's a really, really poor precedent to set if a development encourages PT use 'too much' - that's essentially the grounds you'd have to reject this on.

^^It's more from the fact that it's too early, there are many other sites in the CBD that are ready now that could have been developed in this way that wouldn't have the same cost to government.

I'd estimate that if it was built in this way it would cost the State hundreds of millions in PT infrastructure to cope. Marty, are you not someone complaining about debt levels of these labor Governments?

I'm not saying the government should be out of pocket to cater for the development. Really, I'm just surprised to hear this. It never really occured to me that it could be rejected due to insufficient PT infrastructure. Insufficient road infrastructure has never been a barrier to development.

Maybe this is why there's extensive onsite parking? To purposely mitigate the strain on PT? (At least in theory). *Surely* after such a long time and working so closely with the government, there must be some sort of plan regarding the matter.

And somewhere like Portside or Emporium, with virtually no PT can cope with the high density development...yet a project next to 2 busways station and a train station can't??

@ Marty

It is just out of sequence and about 160,000sqm (1600%) above the existing planning scheme GFA availability. Public Transport in SEQ will be focusing on the areas they cannot deal with at the present time and not dealing with development that could happen across the entire region.

Insufficient Road Infrastructure is regularly a reason to reject development.

The extensive onsite car parking is just following BCC's requirements and not any other reason.

If it does go ahead in the near future it will be more of an Emporium scale of development.

And somewhere like Portside or Emporium, with virtually no PT can cope with the high density development...yet a project next to 2 busways station and a train station can't??

^ learning from past mistakes

So is someone gonna change the name of this thread?

To what?

To what?

Boulevard or Boulevard Stones Corner - whatever its called. It was on the Council website in the PDF documents.
I think I mentioned it a few pages back.

j

How does the Eastern Busway fit into this?

it's a difficult site to TOD properly, given that there's several different focal points and ideally you would want active street frontages both inside the TOD and along O'Keefe Street (to link Stones Corner with the Busway Station)

The Eastern Busway will just be a tunnel under the site. It has recently been redesigned slightly further to the north.

I'd rather the project were delayed to be done properly if approval is going to be an issue.

KBrissy, where are the areas you're describing that PT is being focused?

The Eastern Busway will just be a tunnel under the site. It has recently been redesigned slightly further to the north.

Thanks Chris - I wasn't able to see the maps posted before as work blocks the image dump sites.

I really like it - I think they have done a good job to TOD such a difficult site and really hope it goes ahead.

KJBrissy - your arguments seem absolutely ridiculous, especially when there is ample offpeak and contrapeak capacity and the Eastern Busway will be constructed before this development is completed.

This development is Awesome, and Brisbane needs more like this.

As for PT infrastructure being insufficient, that all depends on how you look at it. At present the network in this location is quite choked due to large numbers of people catching transport from outer suburbs. A simple solution would be to modify one of the existing routes to stop at stones corner. This development could in fact allow Buranda to become a Transport hub were you change buses to continue your trip to the city inbound, or to the suburbs outbound. Cost to government would be almost zero.

Compare this to building something in Logan, or outer brisbane and the infrastructure costs are substantially less to government.

There could even be additional routes incorporated to pick up both "The Boulevard" and "phoenix". This development will by no means be private vehicle focused, the main reason vehicle infrastructure is being provided is because the authorities do not know how the public would react to a development with no to minimal car parks. If such a development was provided, and the public still chose to drive, it would be a catastrophe on the surrounding neighborhood, due to this concern, car parking requirements were still needed.

There might be other development sites in inner brisbane that would also be suited for something similar to this, but you will find that the PT argument would apply to all of them, mainly because the closer in to the city you get the more crowded the PT system is. This is not due to inner city developments or increased inner city density, but rather the masses of people commuting to the city from outer suburbs.

Just one more point, the reason for the realignment of the eastern busway tunnel under the site is to allow future modifications to the busway so that it can cater for a light rail system. With this being the case, it means that the authorities are already considering options to increase capacity on the PT networks.

KJBrissy - your arguments seem absolutely ridiculous, especially when there is ample offpeak and contrapeak capacity and the Eastern Busway will be constructed before this development is completed.

Exactly, not to mention the project will likely be done in stages (ala Emporium). And by the time completion of the initial stages is completed (say 2011/2012), it would be hard to fathom that there wouldn't be considerable increased capacity on the busway and maybe the Cleveland rail line.

I just think for such a great example of a TOD, if it got knocked back because the PT in the area wasn't good enough (what else could you possibly ask for beyond both a busway and rail station) - then what hope doesn't any development of this nature have.

Bugger all off peak capacity will be created here as it is mostly hotel, residential and retail. There will also be bugger all extra capacity as even when the Eastern Busway gets put in there are huge bottlenecks in South Brisbane and the CBD. Rail capacity upgrades will also be focused on the CBD.


With regards to areas that are better planned for TOD developments:

- Bowen Hills is undergoing significant planning at the moment as with Brunswick Street. Both have much better opportunities for higher self sufficiencies and much higher capacity on PT. The will also benefit from PT upgrades that are to come.

- South Brisbane/West End has plenty of residual capacity for development in those areas as most PT trips will be contraflow as it is within walking distance of inbound trips.




I not against the development as a whole, just the excessive density (and the density it will create around the area) without the appropriate money being put into PT upgrades. There is also a big problem with how it integrates with Rail and Bus with very little space provided for PT milling and access. The platforms also aren't wide enough to cater for the use neither is the bridge. This would add at least $40M to the cost let alone the upgrades that would be required to upgrade the bus station also.

This would be an appropriate number of trips over the walking distance from the stations and not the 100m distance away.

I don't think the argument about capacity is ridiculous. It's just the sort of thing the government will look at when assessing this project. It concerns me greatly.

Though I would have thought that extra busway services are no big deal, nor significant extra cost given the cost/benefit ratio for the number of people using the service.

I would have thought that an even mix of car, train and bus use would be a sufficiently diverse breakdown of transport options to make this development more than appropriate.

Further to that, I still stand by the fact that it would be a VERY, VERY poor precedent to set if it were rejected on these grounds. Large TOD developments would be stifled.

Remeber, TOD isn't single developments...it's an entire community. The TODS that work the best are ones that evolve over 30 years or more and don't just appear.

^^ This is a staged development. It will be built over a fairly long period of time I should think. Nothing like 30yrs, but it won't be going up all at once. The documents say this.

And??? It doesn't negate the need for appropriate spaces and entrances into existing PT nor does it negate the need to have 'appropriate densities'. There is little room to put in affordable extra capacity in this area and because it is not the CBD the developments should be built to allow for the PT capacity in the area.

I'm sure that AJG would not have to pay for the whole upgrade to the station? I would have thought that during the stages the government and AJG would sort it out and go 50/50 in the cost? I would have thought although the existing station is undersized that in the long run it would be advantageous for the government to upgrade PT and remove the car demand of this development somewhat. I don't think that they would have lodged a massive DA on a large portion of a suburb without seeking advice from inside stategov and BCC as to the feasibility, scale and timing of the project and how matters would be resolved.

I don't think that they would have lodged a massive DA on a large portion of a suburb without seeking advice from inside stategov and BCC as to the feasibility, scale and timing of the project and how matters would be resolved.

You would think so wouldn't you!

I'm sure that AJG would not have to pay for the whole upgrade to the station? I would have thought that during the stages the government and AJG would sort it out and go 50/50 in the cost? I would have thought although the existing station is undersized that in the long run it would be advantageous for the government to upgrade PT and remove the car demand of this development somewhat.

There is a priority list for station upgrades. Buranda is years away. Why should another station miss out for years just because a developer is building an out of sequence development somewhere.

AJG took on a huge risk by accumulating lots and proposing something well before its time and well above planning scheme and even Regional Plan alowances.

Exactly, not to mention the project will likely be done in stages (ala Emporium). And by the time completion of the initial stages is completed (say 2011/2012), it would be hard to fathom that there wouldn't be considerable increased capacity on the busway and maybe the Cleveland rail line.


100,000sqm are included in stage 1 and it is not capacity with number of vehicles, it is capacity with the hard infrastructure of busway and rail. In otherwords, Big $ to increase.

. Why should another station miss out for years just because a developer is building an out of sequence development somewhere.



i'll weigh in on the debate here....

KJ, just on one of your points:

wouldnt adding all those people into a large development right next to the train station add some "weight" to the reason for an upgrade.

It should really come down to quantity of users. If more people will be using Buranda than other stations (because of the development), then that station deserves an upgrade. Regardless of whether other stations have needed one for longer.

And on the flip side, if there isnt as many patrons using Buranda as other stations then it should not have priority.

Brisbane City Council should make it a condition of development that they contribute funding towards a station upgrade given that residents and visitors associated with the development will contribute to much of the growth.

Remeber, TOD isn't single developments...it's an entire community. The TODS that work the best are ones that evolve over 30 years or more and don't just appear.

Spot on.

I've checked out the revised and I am impressed. :)

Love the look of this.

It does look a lot like the Emporium sort of concept, not that I am complaining. Emporium is a cool destination. When I first went there I was a bit wary of the ground level carparking (as opposed to underground) but it gives it a bit more of a town feeling. The selection of cafes and shops is good and the addition of hotel/apartments/offices is great for The Valley.

This proposal is sort of close to Stone's Corner right? If approved it could help revitalise the Stone's Corner area a bit

Love the look of this.

It does look a lot like the Emporium sort of concept, not that I am complaining. Emporium is a cool destination. When I first went there I was a bit wary of the ground level carparking (as opposed to underground) but it gives it a bit more of a town feeling. The selection of cafes and shops is good and the addition of hotel/apartments/offices is great for The Valley.

This proposal is sort of close to Stone's Corner right? If approved it could help revitalise the Stone's Corner area a bit

Well it is very close and yes the theory is it should spark a rejuvenation of Stones Corner. At the moment there's a lot of uncertainty with business owners in the area and there's a real lack of street appeal and foot traffic for the amount of shopfront available. A lot of it comes down to many of the buildings being used as "colleges" and offices. Hopefully with intensification the offices can move into towers and the shops can stay at ground level.

I have been told that Stockwell are the owners of the shopping centre fronting Logan road and Cleveland St. There's also a few other owners in the area that have large holdings and are just waiting for the new local plan to come into effect.

the prob with stomes corner is that it used the be the place to shop for outlet stores. But when the "dfo's" came to brisbane they really hit stones corner hard with a lot of big name brands moving out. So the shopping has really been languishing in the past four or five years. They tried to add more to the shopping by having street markets on fridays but i dont think that was a big success, as they stopped a while after.

What stones corner needs is to reinvent itself as a destination. I think it needs to turn to "food" to start getting more visitors. The shopping precinct is a great small street, perfect to be lined with quality restaurants and cafes, esp since there is already a good multicultural base in Stones Corner. There are a few cafes/restaurants there at the moment but not a lot of quality establishments.

I think "the boulevard" is a perfect start to reinvigorate the area. Also the Phoenix Village and the planned busway station at Stones Corner will also add to the kickstart of the area.

Stones Corner needs this development.

A renovation the Main Shopping Centre would also help, as it is a bit dingy.

i went past this today and there is some works happening. some machinery on site. Areas have been levelled. Crane onsite too. I wasnt quick enough to snap a shot from the car window as i was driving by.

I imagine that will be work for the Eastern Busway.

probably right

i went past this today and there is some works happening. some machinery on site. Areas have been levelled. Crane onsite too. I wasnt quick enough to snap a shot from the car window as i was driving by.

Yep thats the busway under construction. The scheme is still in the DA approval process. A loooong way from construction.

good to see that the BCC's recent eastern corridor plan practically approves it anyways. although it nominates building heights of only 25 storeys rather than 32.

From the AJG website:

http://www.anthonyjohngroup.com.au/_img/project-buranda.jpg

that looks wicked.

finally some decent size/density in the 'burbs.

I agree looks awesome!

Hasn't happened yet, guys. I imagine it's a fair way off. Will probably be staged when the finally do build it.

Thought I heard on the radio today that this project in principle has been approved...i.e ok for 25 level buildings

Yes. Preliminary approval has been granted up to 25st and 140, 000 sam of space. Individual DA's will be required for each building.

is there any record of this??

PDonline only has part of the detail.. it doesn't say 140,000sqm of space for example.

The DA for this development has finally been approved today.

Good to see that things are still moving along for this.

The DA for this development has finally been approved today.

Good to see that things are still moving along for this.

Excellent news, this is a great development which the Stones Corner area needs, I would hate to see Stonesy die a slow death, it has loads of personality unlike a typical mall-style shopping centre.

pdonline is still very light on with the detail.. it seems like this was a very messy approval!!?

As stated earlier, the approval is a preliminary approval. Essentially, the idea of the development is approved but not the actual buildings.

Was this the development planned for Gov't owned land which the Council has no say on? Or is that something entirely different?

the land is mostly privately owned*

*part of the site is a council road reserve, which will be closed and acquired by the developer

Was this the development planned for Gov't owned land which the Council has no say on? Or is that something entirely different?

Dime IICRC I think your thinking about Wooloongabba at the state government go-print site which is also (if the NIMBYS are defeated) where the CRR underground interchange with the buswaywill be placed , But it is great to see both W'Gabba and Buranda projects starting to take shape ( from a planning perspective anyways). This should open upen the Stones corner-buranda-W'gabba area to more infill combined with easy access to major public transport infrasructure.

^^ Pretty sure there is little to no Nimby opposition to the plans for the Gabba... going by some polls and the lack of anyone who has stirred up a fuss about the plans.

^^There were a few in the paper the other day from Fairfield complaining about how the tunnel's going to end in their suburb, and they don't know whose house will get resumed (one dickhead even thought the shopping centre might).

^^
to a degree it's understandable: no one wants their house resummed.

But the crux of the article was stupid:

1) the governments not telling us anything - well what do you want? a premature poorly thought out location, or perhaps daily updates of what they're getting up to.

2) that it's even going in their neihbourhood - come on, there's already a railway running through your area, you'll cope.

Pretty sure there is little to no Nimby opposition to the plans for the Gabba

i'm not so sure, i think the lack of opposition at the moment is partially due to how recently the announcment has been made and the fact that there are no concrete plans in place yet. there is local grumbling, they're just not organised at the moment.

NIMBY's from other parts of Brisbane (or who might go through the area frequently) will probably find something offensive about it and complain.

NIMBY's from other parts of Brisbane (or who might go through the area frequently) will probably find something offensive about it and complain.

It will block views of the Telstra tower hehe.

^^ God I hope it does! :lol:

^^There were a few in the paper the other day from Fairfield complaining about how the tunnel's going to end in their suburb, and they don't know whose house will get resumed (one dickhead even thought the shopping centre might).

At this stage it might not even pop out there because they are now looking as far south as Clapham/Moorooka - once again, better to develop a refined option for the public before blathering on about what may or may not be intended. Same issue with the Olsen Avenue light rail alignment down here.

Although, Melbourne Metro showed us just how to avoid buggering up public engagement recently.

Btw is there anything planned for that ghastly carpark opposite the Gabba? (the one on Stanley St)

At this stage it might not even pop out there because they are now looking as far south as Clapham/Moorooka - once again, better to develop a refined option for the public before blathering on about what may or may not be intended. Same issue with the Olsen Avenue light rail alignment down here.

Although, Melbourne Metro showed us just how to avoid buggering up public engagement recently.

Couldn't agree more. And I think the Clapham yards would be a great place for the tunnel to surface.

Don't suppose you know how any progress on the Light Rail is coming along?

The trouble with having the tunnel surface so far south is Dutton Park, Fairfield, and Yeronga. In this diagram I've included a semi-underground stop for the CRR at Yeerongpilly which probably wouldn't happen, but after reading the newsletter that said the CRR is most likely going to be a Beenleigh - Petrie route, this is really the only setup I can image. Which is silly because it's adding a line (Shorncliffe - Springfield) to the Merivale Bridge route, which is precisely what the CRR is being built to avoid.

Thoughts?

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2583/29163418.jpg

Couldn't agree more. And I think the Clapham yards would be a great place for the tunnel to surface.

Don't suppose you know how any progress on the Light Rail is coming along?

Would it not be better to try and use Clapham for stabling for the CRR line to relieve some pressure off Mayne?

Clapham yards seems way too far south for surfacing, unless the financial modelling shows that its the economically more viable option (IE more tunnels over increase in track capacity). Of course the stabling is needed as well, which is where I assume the money set aside in the SEQIPP was for (converting Clapham Yards), but you should also be able to fit both into the same area.

Otherwise perhaps this discussion is getting off topic and we should head over to the dedicated Cross River Rail thread in the transport section.

Sorry, no interesting news, just a photo showing nothing happening at the site today. Has this died, like many of the other projects in the area?

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/9443/p3170011.jpg

They don't plan to touch a thing until the Busway is finished.

AJG are focusing on East Village and Southpoint in the near-mid term, so this is certainly on hold but not dead.

They don't plan to touch a thing until the Busway is finished.

AJG are focusing on East Village and Southpoint in the near-mid term, so this is certainly on hold but not dead.

And rightly so, this development is before its time.

As already discussed, this development would be a welcoming addition to the area. Below is an update on progress and I quote from a representative of the developer;

"We continue to work with the State Government and Brisbane City Council on our detailed approvals for The Boulevard Development. We anticipate securing the relevant permits and releasing our first stage to market in 2013, which currently contemplates both retail and residential apartments."

As already discussed, this development would be a welcoming addition to the area. Below is an update on progress and I quote from a representative of the developer;

"We continue to work with the State Government and Brisbane City Council on our detailed approvals for The Boulevard Development. We anticipate securing the relevant permits and releasing our first stage to market in 2013, which currently contemplates both retail and residential apartments."

This is actually one of my most anticipated projects in brisbane. Perfect timing as well I will be in th housing market when its complete :banana:.

Any bets that this will be complete before the milton :)

same here brizguy. This is a great development, one i have been waiting for. I am glad to hear an update on it. Thanks aj66.

There is a fair bit of activity with this application online at http://pdonline.brisbane.qld.gov.au/MasterView/modules/applicationmaster/default.aspx?page=wrapper&key=A003475673

Only to do with extension of time to the original DA it seems.

Pretty sad going back to the start of this thread and reading through. So much excitement about it initially....and now 4 years later nothing at all.

Most of the stuff around Stones Corner, Buranda and Wooloongabba seems to have died a quiet death.

yes it did all die and the area really needed these developments. This one especially. I still hope it gets up because it truly is a suburb changing development - god knows Stones Corner needs it. And its of a great scale so close to bus station and train station too.

When does the new CityGlider route start?
That should help Stones Corner a bit.

I popped into stones corner for a look on sunday and it was absolutely dead.

Nothing doing at the farmers markets eitherl.

The only place that had a reasonable number of people was the pub.

Even with the construction of the Eastwood and Radius apartments I don't think this will revive the area at all.

Definitely need this development to go through and the last I heard (as per a previous post) they were going to put it to market in 2013. The only concern I have is whether there other projects at Cannon Hill & South Bank would effect the constructions of this (i.e does one have more priority or do they need to finish one before starting another).

This one has been revived again and will be launched soon
Buranda (http://www.anthonyjohngroup.com.au)

How do you know it will be launched soon?