INDIANAPOLIS | Light Commuter Rail | App

[cwilson758]

As a member of the Policy Committee that voted today, I would like to share with you all the good news:

Indy-Noblesville commuter rail plan wins first vote

The Indianapolis Regional Transportation Council this morning voted unanimously in favor of a proposal to use diesel engines on a 19-mile rail line from Noblesville to Downtown Indianapolis for the region's first of seven proposed rapid transit lines.

The council consists of 43 officials from local governments and public agencies throughout the eight-county area and provides policy oversight for the Indianapolis Metropolitan Planning Organization. Thirty of its members showed up for the vote -- and everyone voted yes.


The council's decision is an endorsement of the MPO's recommendation for a $160 million system with five to six stations along the Nickel Plate line.

MPO Manager Mike Dearing said the vote was just one of several hurdles before the rail line become a reality.

He said funding still needs to be found and an environmental study needs to be undertaken to determine specific locations for stations, where land needs to be acquired, and the impact on noise and air quality, wetlands, historical properties, flood plains and endangered species.

Still, planners have said the system could be up and running as soon as 2012. At first, older diesel engines would be used.

Eventually, the plan calls for diesel multiple units powered by a built-in engine that is more energy-efficient and produces less pollution and noise than heavier locomotives.

By 2035, the line could have as many as 19 stations and two lines of track costing $690 million and drawing 5,900 riders a day.



All of the members had to make a brief statement concerning the line and all spoke of the economic development issues, pollution and basically "growing up" as a region. Even Mayor Ballard was 100% behind it.

Our next meeting is in October.

[Indywatch]

Okay this will make everyone angry I'm sure, and make people accuse me of being "pro-automobile" which I'm not.

Hmmmm $690,000,000.00 divided by 5,900 people comes out to $116,949.15 per person. Can each rider who benefits from this write a check? I live downtown, work on the Southside and never go to Noblesville. I seriously doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to use the line. Am I supposed to do my tax paying "Patriotic Duty" and help pay for this too when I wont receive any benefit?

[TrafficSignal]

Okay this will make everyone angry I'm sure, and make people accuse me of being "pro-automobile" which I'm not.

Hmmmm $690,000,000.00 divided by 5,900 people comes out to $116,949.15 per person. Can each rider who benefits from this write a check? I live downtown, work on the Southside and never go to Noblesville. I seriously doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to use the line. Am I supposed to do my tax paying "Patriotic Duty" and help pay for this too when I wont receive any benefit?

Just because the first leg ends in Fishers / Noblesville doesn't mean the southside will never get a leg - the system has to start somewhere.

[ak72]

You have a very valid point, however, in that average ridership is not just people riding every day to work, but people coming down just on the weekend for shopping or a sporting event are factored into that, so the money is spread over more people. Getting downtown easier might bring more people for the Pacers games. You say that you will never use this because it doesn't connect Indy-Southside, but the fact is that the most population outside of downtown is the northside, so it would make sense to start there. If this works the line could be expanded west and south and east.

Speaking of expanding east- Cory, is there any plan to extend the rail out to the airport? Or do you think that may be more along the lines of a light rail/people mover system? Either way I think some link besides bus/taxi needs to be in place. Or at least a bus that runs every 10 minutes.

[hoosier]

Why should my tax dollars go to fixing roads that I will never use?

If that line of argument was used in all public expenditure decisions, NOTHING WOULD EVER BE BUILT!!!

[hoosier]

This is an important step in the creation of commuter rail in Indianapolis. Sure it is years too late and will take forever to be built, if it ever is, but a baby step is better than no step right?

[cwilson758]

Okay this will make everyone angry I'm sure, and make people accuse me of being "pro-automobile" which I'm not.

Hmmmm $690,000,000.00 divided by 5,900 people comes out to $116,949.15 per person. Can each rider who benefits from this write a check? I live downtown, work on the Southside and never go to Noblesville. I seriously doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to use the line. Am I supposed to do my tax paying "Patriotic Duty" and help pay for this too when I wont receive any benefit?

IndyWatch- As mentioned, this is a start for a much larger system. You have contibuted funds for The Luke; have you used it? Hoosier makes the point that you pay for roads ALL over this state and country. I doubt you have used all of them. Just

because you may not use it doesn't mean that you won't benefit. Indianapolis misses out on millions of federal dollars each year due to the region being a pollution/ozone capitol. By reducing carbon emmissions, the region will begin to offset the polution and hopefully meet the very minimal air quality standards set out by Washington.

Secondly, TOD, transit-oriented development, will DEFINITELY occur along the various lines. This development will increase the property tax revenue that will help to off-set your own tax bills.

Thirdly, the region, once it joins the "true" North American Urban Club, will be classed in a different league and that too will be a big + for high-tech businesses looking at our region.

Finally, Indianapolis will be one of only a handful of Midwest Cities with rail, something that makes it stand out when compared to Cincy, Columbus, Louisville, etc.

[youngandrestless]

Cory, I was just wondering why the older diesels were decided on. From the feedback meeting I went to it looked like they were really pushing for the DMUs to start the new train service.

Coming to my point, I would rather have something done right than on the cheap. Now I see that the plan is to EVENTUALLY move to DMUs, but shouldn't the start of this rail system have a better look/feel then really old technology that might turn off people at the start?

If we start out by skimping on the train itself what stops us from skimping out on the stations and creating something like all of the shelter-less IndyGo stops around the city.

Sorry to be negative on a first post, but it's just something that worries me.

[hoosier]

I would like the line to be electrified as well and be double tracked but because Washington has no money for important infrastructure investments ( a choice it made) it is up to cash strapped local and state governments to fund public transit projects. Indiana is a very reactionary state that is slow to embrace change. It has to be brought kicking and screaming into the present.

[CorrND]

Okay this will make everyone angry I'm sure, and make people accuse me of being "pro-automobile" which I'm not.

Hmmmm $690,000,000.00 divided by 5,900 people comes out to $116,949.15 per person. Can each rider who benefits from this write a check? I live downtown, work on the Southside and never go to Noblesville. I seriously doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to use the line. Am I supposed to do my tax paying "Patriotic Duty" and help pay for this too when I wont receive any benefit?
$117k per person for the life of the line. What if you divide that cost over 50 years?

50 years * 365 days/year * 5,900 rides/day = 107,675,000 rides

That's about $6.40 per ride, with ancillary societal and environmental benefits.

[SpiderMonkey]

:banana:

Yay! This is a step in the direction. I never thought I would see the day when there would be 30 of 30 votes in favor of moving forward with commuter rail in Indy.

[arenn]

Cory, congrats on making it past this major milestone.

I've said it before, but cities like Columbus, Cincy, and Louisville peaked too soon when it came to rail. Indy and KC, which were laggards, now have an opportunity to make something reality when $4 gas has people primed for change.

[exit_320]

and Milwaukee continues to fail on this subject.. congrats!

[cjfjapan]

Thirdly, the region, once it joins the "true" North American Urban Club, will be classed in a different league and that too will be a big + for high-tech businesses looking at our region.

Finally, Indianapolis will be one of only a handful of Midwest Cities with rail, something that makes it stand out when compared to Cincy, Columbus, Louisville, etc.

I'm very happy to see rail transit coming to Indy, but I disagree that this will put Indy in a different league. Three heavy rail lines in Cleveland, a Buffalo subway and a good system in Pittsburgh have done little to help those cities. Nor, in my estimation, has the line in Minneapolis made the city stand out more than it already does. At best, this will add to Indy's strong repertoire of urban amenities, but I doubt it will be a game-changer.

[Cincinnatus]

Cory, congrats on making it past this major milestone.

I've said it before, but cities like Columbus, Cincy, and Louisville peaked too soon when it came to rail. Indy and KC, which were laggards, now have an opportunity to make something reality when $4 gas has people primed for change.

Peaked too soon? What?! lol ... Look at these streetcar lines and then look at our most dense neighborhoods:

http://www.cincinnativiews.net/images-3/1911%20Traction%20Company%20routes.jpg

[cwilson758]

Cory, congrats on making it past this major milestone.

I've said it before, but cities like Columbus, Cincy, and Louisville peaked too soon when it came to rail. Indy and KC, which were laggards, now have an opportunity to make something reality when $4 gas has people primed for change.

Arenn-

Thanks, but I can hardly take credit; that goes to the MPO. I am just a member of the committee.

Cincinnatus-

I see where Arenn is coming from in the sense that those cities brought the rail votes up at a time when gas was nowhere near where it is today. Face it, in this region of the US, we love our cars and to sell a system, eventhough it seems common sense to us, is a battle unless you are aided by a floundering "system."

[cailes]

I sincerely hope that the people driving this thing, can find the funds ina place other than a tax.

I only say this because with the property tax changes adding to sales tax and the stadium being built adding another 1%, its getting EXPENSIVE to shop for anything in Indianapolis these days. I know its a few cents here and a few cents there, but it adds up when you look at your receipt.

That said, I am still for the rail line. This is a big deal and it shows our pears in the midwest, and even those further out watching, that indy is commited to progress, once again

[arenn]

Cincinnatus, Cincy had proposed a major light rail line (not the streetcar) a while back, no? IIRC it was on the ballot and voted down. Whatever the case, it seems like there was a major push a while back, then it just died.

[Cincinnatus]

I see where Arenn is coming from in the sense that those cities brought the rail votes up at a time when gas was nowhere near where it is today. Face it, in this region of the US, we love our cars and to sell a system, eventhough it seems common sense to us, is a battle unless you are aided by a floundering "system."

Ohhh ... lol, obviously I was on a difference page completely!

Well, I don't understand then since a streetcar system is still in the works ... with LRT in discussions in regards to our subway tunnels?

[confused04]

Are there any provisions for this line to possibly be extended in case of the likely expansion of the suburbs? The North Star Line currently does not extend to St. Cloud in Minnesota but there are plans to extend it that far because planners figured the corridor would begin to infill. 19 miles just seems pretty short to justify that kinda investment.

I am glad though that more cities are putting the money in to advance mass transit. Sure its expensive, but what isn't these days. I find it laughable that people complain about the subsidization of mass transit when highways and roads are for the most part COMPLETELY subsidized. Yea, some roads of tolls, but to my knowledge, no toll road pays for itself or even comes close to revenue generated by mass transit. Figures I've seen for MetroTransit have said about 1/3 to 40% of the operating costs are covered by fares, I don't think tolls cover 40% of road costs. It only makes sense to start investing in mass transit.

[cwilson758]

Yes, at the meeting on Friday there comments conerning the Nickel Plate Line being designed to go beyond 146th Street. It could go east to Anderson/Muncie, west to Carmel, or North to Cicero.

Further, I really think that Mayor Ballard is going to push to get this first segment to extend all the way to IND. It makes total sense to have a train run from 146th Street all the way to IND.

[cailes]

Didnt they make provisions for this anyway?

[cwilson758]

I would love for our leaders to use this "bailout" plan as a means to allocate a lot of funds to the major metros in this Country so that ALL OF THEM could invest in rail. We are woefully behind the 8-ball internationally when it comes to transit and what better way than passing a 2008-version of the "New Deal" so that we can begin investing in our aging and underfunded infrastructure.

[speedblue47]

cory - let us hope they don't. I wouldn't want our current economic troubles being prolonged like the Great Depression was by arrogant policies like the New Deal.

What is needed instead is to let private enterprise compete in the transit industry, like it did pre-WW II. It is odd that we once had dozens of interurbans and streetcars operators by many different companies and you could live in Indy without a car, but once the city took over the lines operation, there was a single point of contact for automobile manufacturers to impress the advantages of bus transit on, which in turn led to a decline in ridership until the system as a whole went defunct(along with a general reduction in quality of service and an increase in headways, as well as federally-funded highways).

But, alas, I understand that there will more than likely be no major move towards privatization in transit anytime soon, so let's at least do something that is more responsible. Merge IndyGo and CIRTA and force them to create a solution for the region - since the cities in this region are so interdependent economically and culturally. And look at solutions not currently being thought about in other cities in America. I personally believe that CIRTA and IndyGo could work out a technology transfer agreement with APTS for their Phileas automated BRT system. These system's operate buses of various sizes on at-grade or seperate grade ROWs in either automatic or manual operating modes. The only thing that needs to be installed are small magnets in the pavement and stations that meet the system's guidelines. The buses can travel at highway speeds and hybrid and electric bus options are being looked at. We could probably purchase a 60 bus system that could provide service to many areas of the city for the same price as the rail line could be built for the NE corridor. There is also a fixed-place investment, which should in theory bring at least some measure of the land-use benefits of rail transit options but with much lower initial capital costs, quicker rollout time, and quite possibly lower operating costs(automatic operation saves need for individual attendants in each vehicle).

That's my post for the month

P.S.: In case you are wondering, I also hope this bailout plan just doesn't happen. Something more similar to the setup during the S&L crisis would be acceptable, where the government receives loans and/or assets from banks that go into receivership(through FDIC) and then selling those assets and/or loans to market participants. Not just buying every "subprime" loan where the government will pay way too much for assets they have no means to valuate, and then sell them at a probable loss.

[hoosier]

Cory is right. We need another New Deal to rebuild this country. Private enterprise will not give us the infrastructure we need.

[_ttam_]

$117k per person for the life of the line. What if you divide that cost over 50 years?

50 years * 365 days/year * 5,900 rides/day = 107,675,000 rides

That's about $6.40 per ride, with ancillary societal and environmental benefits.

Sorry man your calculation doesn't make sense. Where does it talk about operating costs over the same period? It looks like it says 690 Mill is what it will cost for the full line with all stations to be built. The first 160 Mil is only going for used trains and 5 or 6 stations! And no train lasts 50 years--they'll buy new trains every 15 years, spend billions on maintenance, and labor and operations costs. That $6.40 goes up to $20.00 a ride real fast--and this for a FRACTION of one percent of the population.

Trains never make financial sense. There's a reason we moved away from them. Very few use all those cold, slow, inconvenient trains. But we ALL use roads (even if you ride a train every day, you surely buy food or goods--unless you grow everything in your backyard and darn your own wool).

And to top it all off, your "$6.40 per ride for 50 years" price tag is paid 99.9% by people who will never USE the train!

[CorrND]

Sorry man your calculation doesn't make sense. Where does it talk about operating costs over the same period? It looks like it says 690 Mill is what it will cost for the full line with all stations to be built. The first 160 Mil is only going for used trains and 5 or 6 stations! And no train lasts 50 years--they'll buy new trains every 15 years, spend billions on maintenance, and labor and operations costs. That $6.40 goes up to $20.00 a ride real fast--and this for a FRACTION of one percent of the population.
You're taking that calculation too literally. That wasn't meant to be a definitive cost analysis and the numbers were just pulled out of thin air (notice that I didn't justify any assumptions, including the 50 year lifetime). It was meant to be a rough calculation to refute the other claim that this was going to cost over $100k per rider, which I thought was a rather dubious way of presenting the cost. If it costs $20 per ride instead of $6.40, that's fine.

And to top it all off, your "$6.40 per ride for 50 years" price tag is paid 99.9% by people who will never USE the train!
That line is used repeatedly. Your tax dollars are used on roads that you'll never drive on as well. That doesn't mean they're not worth building.

[runNgunn]

I noticed in the HSR bill that just went through Congress there is now a federal mediator for disputes between freight railroads and commuter railroads about trackage and right-of-ways. It is non-binding mediation though. It would only affect the Nickel Plate Line if there was a dispute. If I remember right, there would be some shared trackage or right-of-way around Union Station so it might be a possibility. (If you want to see the legislation go http://thomas.loc.gov/ and do a search for "commuter rail mediation".)

[cailes]

My wife and I were in Missouri wine country this past weekend. We visited with some friends.

Travelling along I-44 out of St Louis, there were many signs for www.morail.org

I checked it out this morning, and there is some interesting information on there. One link of note was the midwest rail initiative which I thought was really good reading.

http://www.modot.org/pdf/newsandinfo/railmidwest.pdf

Worth checking out

[runNgunn]

With an economic stimulus bill likely coming from Congress in the next few months, does anyone see Indy profiting much in the way of federal money for light rail and other transit? (If there is a sizable transportation infrastructure portion of the bill as I have been hearing is planned.)

[cwilson758]

Yes. I think that the Cities who are currently in the process of jumping thru all of the hopes for federal $$ are going to get a big Christmas present in the form of allocation of funds for light rail.

[ragerunner1]

Yes. I think that the Cities who are currently in the process of jumping thru all of the hopes for federal $$ are going to get a big Christmas present in the form of allocation of funds for light rail.

Agreed, if you are a community that has its light rail plans mostly completed and ready to go you may very well get a big belated Christmas present by early 2009. I think those cities that don't have their engineering and environmental studies done yet (these take years) may find they are a little to late.

[runNgunn]

I think those cities that don't have their engineering and environmental studies done yet (these take years) may find they are a little to late.

Another question from the uninformed...

Has Indy completed engineering and/or environmental studies for the whole city or just for the Nickel Plate Line? (I am thinking the latter is the case, but wanted to be sure.)

[arenn]

As near as I can tell, Indy hasn't completed the environmental documentation for anything yet. The Directions study appears to be a "Tier 1" type EIS, meaning the detailed environmental studies on the preferred alternative remain to be completed. Actually, I don't know if they have even been started yet. No engineering work is done.

[cwilson758]

Based off of my memory, we have fully completed ridership forecast/projects and those have been accepted by the Feds. Environmental was to start this year, if I recall.

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

just in time for gas prices to be less than a buck fifty.... if I can recall correctly... some of you said they "WOULD ONLY GET HIGHER." This issue is DOA until gas prices go back up. Why should light rail be built by mortgaging the future of young Americans. This bailout madness needs to stop! We are well on our way from being one of the wealthiest nations in the world to....well whatever we are now. At the hands of EVERY politican, local and national....stop spending $$$ on pipedreams and focus on necessities.

[benjaminooo]

just in time for gas prices to be less than a buck fifty.... if I can recall correctly... some of you said they "WOULD ONLY GET HIGHER." This issue is DOA until gas prices go back up. Why should light rail be built by mortgaging the future of young Americans. This bailout madness needs to stop! We are well on our way from being one of the wealthiest nations in the world to....well whatever we are now. At the hands of EVERY politican, local and national....stop spending $$$ on pipedreams and focus on necessities.

Uh... just because gas is "cheap" now doesn't mean we should move ahead with mass transit. It's a necessity.

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

Alternative fuels are a necessity, mass transit is not. It is usually a bragging right that cities use to try to prove they have hit the big time. Rail will continue to be a huge waste of money in our area. Improving indygo would be the logical thing to do, yet we want to show off and waste money. Like our country needs to throw any more federal funds down the toilet.

[hoosier]

Alternative fuels are a necessity, mass transit is not. It is usually a bragging right that cities use to try to prove they have hit the big time. Rail will continue to be a huge waste of money in our area. Improving indygo would be the logical thing to do, yet we want to show off and waste money. Like our country needs to throw any more federal funds down the toilet.

Once again you reveal your ignorance to everyone.

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

Once again you reveal your ignorance to everyone.
Once again you reveal the urge you have to insult and call people names when you don't agree with them. Personally, I think its ignorant to spend even more money when our country is headed toward a depression. Before light rail becomes anything more than a waste of money, you'll have to change the mindset of commuters. Have you ever seen the show ecopolis on the discovery channel? It's hosted by the head of the energy commission and a Nobel prize winner. He said the same thing. If the mindset doesn't change, mass transit will be a waste of money.

[benjaminooo]

Once again you reveal the urge you have to insult and call people names when you don't agree with them. Personally, I think its ignorant to spend even more money when our country is headed toward a depression. Before light rail becomes anything more than a waste of money, you'll have to change the mindset of commuters. Have you ever seen the show ecopolis on the discovery channel? It's hosted by the head of the energy commission and a Nobel prize winner. He said the same thing. If the mindset doesn't change, mass transit will be a waste of money.

Being called ignorant isn't an insult.

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

Being called ignorant isn't an insult.

Since when? To belittle someone in a fashion that you are "all knowing" and anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, or somehow less intelligent than you is not insulting? I'll write that down in the notes section of my copy of "enlightenment for dummies." However, when light rail fails miserably in Indianapolis it should be proof enough. But I won't call you ignorant, so don't worry.

[socrates#1fan]

I feel the rails will help the central city and commuters from the suburb. However, it does not mean the city is suddenly going to be all 'mass transit'.
I don't think it will fail miserably. The bus system is packed and even though gas is cheap, it is still cheaper for a lot of people to ride the bus.
Add that to a central city that gets denser and denser and parking gets harder and harder to find, than you will eventually have a steady flow of passengers for these rails.

[socrates#1fan]

just in time for gas prices to be less than a buck fifty.... if I can recall correctly... some of you said they "WOULD ONLY GET HIGHER." This issue is DOA until gas prices go back up. Why should light rail be built by mortgaging the future of young Americans. This bailout madness needs to stop! We are well on our way from being one of the wealthiest nations in the world to....well whatever we are now. At the hands of EVERY politican, local and national....stop spending $$$ on pipedreams and focus on necessities.

With the cuts in OPEC production and already declining production in many places gas prices are bound to get higher once the economy improves.
The cuts by OPEC could actually be dangerous.

[socrates#1fan]

Once again you reveal the urge you have to insult and call people names when you don't agree with them. Personally, I think its ignorant to spend even more money when our country is headed toward a depression. Before light rail becomes anything more than a waste of money, you'll have to change the mindset of commuters. Have you ever seen the show ecopolis on the discovery channel? It's hosted by the head of the energy commission and a Nobel prize winner. He said the same thing. If the mindset doesn't change, mass transit will be a waste of money.

Depression is a pretty strong word, however it should not be ruled out just in case. Also, we can't halt spending on everything. I agree we have to be wise but at the same time there is a lot of demand for this and the city should go through with it. However, they need to be wise about it. It is one thing to invest in something like a new foot ball stadium, but it is different to invest in needed infrastructure.
But I do agree, we have to be wiser about our spending.

[socrates#1fan]

Being called ignorant isn't an insult.

No offense, but it is considerably insulting.
There is a difference between illiteracy and ignorance.
Ignorance is typically used in argument when people go without knowledge into a subject or refuse/choose not to get the knowledge.
Illiteracy is typically used for one who may have good understanding, but a poor education.

[socrates#1fan]

Once again you reveal your ignorance to everyone.

That is no way to debate with one.
Insults seal the debate as without a respectful ending and more like a childish argument.

[cwilson758]

Back on the transit topic, PLEEZE

[ablerock]

Back on the transit topic, PLEEZE

Word.

Anyone heard any rumblings from the Downtown Indianapolis Streetcar Corp. lately?

http://indianapolisstreetcar.org/home.html

[hoosier]

Yes, light-rail in Indy would fail the way it did in Minneapolis, Denver, Salt Lake City, and CHarlotte (oh wait, light rail is FLOURISHING in all of those cities and is being expanded).

Hell, even PHOENIX, decentralized, low density PHOENIX, just opened a 20 mile light-rail line.

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

until gas prices came back down. Now I'm sure many are finding reasons to use the car.

[socrates#1fan]

until gas prices came back down. Now I'm sure many are finding reasons to use the car.

Actually gas consumption is still dropping even as gas gets incredibly cheap.
The problem is, is that once the economy improves the gas prices will continue to rise due to supply and demand.
Cars won't vanish, but public transportation is sure to make a comeback along with density.

[hoosier]

until gas prices came back down. Now I'm sure many are finding reasons to use the car.

Light rail was FLOURISHING in these cities BEFORE gas prices spiked.

But by all means, please continue to spew bullshit. Everyone knows you have no fucking clue about what you write.

[TrafficSignal]

hoosier - I'm pretty sure I know your response (an angry, expletive laced "I don't care"), but you're on my ignore list now since you can't seem to have a civil discussion. First and only on my list too, so congrats!

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

It's the same with Indygo. People will do whatever is most convenient. I don't believe there are dense enough areas around here to make light rail more convenient than using a car. Thats what those other cities have going for them. They aren't sprawled on flat cornfields, so they have dense pockets to service with light rail. I know you want it to work. So do I. I just don't believe it will. There isn't a real plan, and without a longterm plan, plopping down a rail line will not fix any problems.

[NaptownBoy]

Great stuff. Here's my .02:

First, the city needs some sort of alternate transit option. This isn't just some kind of "build it just because" type of deal; we're talking about a game-changer. It's inevitable that we're going to need rail at some point, and there is no way that we can maintain the habits we have now and still commute feasibly in the long run.

Second, the density argument doesn't work. Rail has been successfully implemented in cities such as Charlotte, Minneapolis, Salt Lake City, St. Louis, Phoenix, etc. None of these cities are New York by any means, and it isn't like Indy has like 2 people per square mile, either.

Finally, it's useless to speculate that people won't ride a rail system if it were to be implemented here without evidence to back up said claim. No one knows that for certain, and it could just as easily be argued that people would ride in droves. Obviously people don't ride IndyGo because the system is terrible and needs to be fixed, but we're talking about a whole different concept.

[arenn]

Naptown, you know perfectly well no one can "prove" a hypothetical.

I did previously demonstrate that Minneapolis appears to be far denser than even the old city of Indianapolis (one mile radius of 49th and College). St. Louis has suffered a catastrophic population drop, but the built environment is still that of a 19th century river city, much denser than Indy. And if you think Phoenix is so low density, go over to google and look at some aerials. It may not be San Francisco, but it is much denser than is generally believed.

And transit plan in Indianapolis, to be successful, would have to be coupled with an extensive set of public policy changes to take advantage of it, notably not just allowing but requiring high density TOD near stops, upgrading the physical infrastructure near them, building connections around, not using stops for huge park and ride lots, etc. I don't see any evidence that this is on the table.

[hoosier]

Saint Louis may have a dense built environment, but it has far fewer people still than Indianapolis. Their heavy rail system has been quite successful.

Dallas and CHarlotte are not high density cities either but have successful and growing light rail systems.

Indianapolis has the nodes of commerical and residential density to support commuter or light rail.

[hoosier]

It's the same with Indygo. People will do whatever is most convenient. I don't believe there are dense enough areas around here to make light rail more convenient than using a car. Thats what those other cities have going for them. They aren't sprawled on flat cornfields, so they have dense pockets to service with light rail. I know you want it to work. So do I. I just don't believe it will. There isn't a real plan, and without a longterm plan, plopping down a rail line will not fix any problems.

Charlotte and Dallas are both flat cities that are surrounded by undeveloped lands. Chicago is "sprawled" on flat cornfields as well, as is every Midwest city since that is the predominant use of land.

[Cincinnatus]

Saint Louis may have a dense built environment, but it has far fewer people still than Indianapolis. Their heavy rail system has been quite successful.

STL's density is double that of Indy's and its metro is more than a million more than Indy's?

[socrates#1fan]

STL's density is double that of Indy's and its metro is more than a million more than Indy's?

Within city limits.
Metro wise it is larger. Indianapolis also has more people within it's city limits than SF. It isn't a miracle of people moving back into our central city and returning to the population density of 1900, it is that a lot of suburbs and towns were annexed and empty space filled with those annoying apartment complexes.

[Cincinnatus]

Within city limits.
Metro wise it is larger.

What? lol

Indy's metro - ~1.6 million
STL - ~2.6 million

Indianapolis also has more people within it's city limits than SF.

If that's true, then it's probably because it's almost 400 f**kin square miles! lol


STL's metro isn't a little larger than Indy's ... it's a lot larger.

[socrates#1fan]

STL's density is double that of Indy's and its metro is more than a million more than Indy's?

Within city limits it has more people. No one is questioning the FACT that STL Is denser than Indianapolis. STL metro has more people than Indy's metro, yes.
STL has about 400k in it's city limits, Indy has about double that.
What is the issue here?

[socrates#1fan]

What? lol

Indy's metro - ~1.6 million
STL - ~2.6 million



If that's true, then it's probably because it's almost 400 f**kin square miles! lol


STL's metro isn't a little larger than Indy's ... it's a lot larger.

I meant STL has a larger metro.
Yes, its nearly 1 million more people, that isn't a small number. If I said so I was wrong. XP
Indianapolis isn't NYC but it isn't LA either. It has some dense areas(granted the city isn't made up of sprawling row houses.).
Indianapolis annexed a lot of suburbs and it has been lucky enough to keep a great deal of it's population with itself instead of it's suburbs.

[socrates#1fan]

STL has about 67 SQ miles. Here in Indy where we have some elbow room we have a whopping 370 SQ miles. Bring on the sprawl bitches.

[unvrsty07]

St. Louis is more like three quarters a million. Indianapolis metro is over 2 million as of 2008 and St. louis is at 2.8 million. Emporis.com which I trust and love. Indy has been at 1.6 million since the 2000 census... Yet had 10% growth rate, come on now!?

[Cincinnatus]

St. Louis is more like three quarters a million. Indianapolis metro is over 2 million as of 2008 and St. louis is at 2.8 million. Emporis.com which I trust and love. Indy has been at 1.6 million since the 2000 census... Yet had 10% growth rate, come on now!?

You're right, Indy is at 1.7 million now and St. Louis is at 2.8 million ... :cheers:

U.S. Census meet unvrsty07:

http://www.census.gov/popest/metro/CBSA-est2007-pop-chg.html


There's no need to go on and ruin this thread. You guys are out of your damn mind. The two metros are no where near each other in size. Not even close. Yes, Indy needs LRT, but to compare the two cities, because they are similar in size is ludicrous.... and socrates#1fan, for the love of god, I am showing you metro #'s. Metro/MSA/region=an area's real population.

[cwilson758]

You're right, Indy is at 1.7 million now and St. Louis is at 2.8 million ... :cheers:

U.S. Census meet unvrsty07:

http://www.census.gov/popest/metro/CBSA-est2007-pop-chg.html


There's no need to go on and ruin this thread. You guys are out of your damn mind. The two metros are no where near each other in size. Not even close. Yes, Indy needs LRT, but to compare the two cities, because they are similar in size is ludicrous.... and socrates#1fan, for the love of god, I am showing you metro #'s. Metro/MSA/region=an area's real population.

Cincinnatus, you actually seem to be the one that jumped the gun a bit. All was being mentioned, which I think most understood, was that the City of Indianapolis has more people than <insert any city not in the top 11 that has rail>. You are the one that jumped in and started measuring weiners.

As for the Census in 2010 for Indy, expect a big jump. A county of 150,000 that was removed in 2000 will be back in addition to the healthy growth of the region. A metro of 1.9 is certainly within grasp in 2010.

See, I just extended my weiner.

[Cincinnatus]

Cincinnatus, you actually seem to be the one that jumped the gun a bit. All was being mentioned, which I think most understood, was that the City of Indianapolis has more people than <insert any city not in the top 11 that has rail>. You are the one that jumped in and started measuring weiners.

Really?

Saint Louis may have a dense built environment, but it has far fewer people still than Indianapolis. Their heavy rail system has been quite successful.

Within city limits.
Metro wise it is larger.

St. Louis is more like three quarters a million. Indianapolis metro is over 2 million as of 2008

All 3 statements are wrong.

[unvrsty07]

^^^ I am sorry sir but my stat is correct. It was probably an unnecessary post and for that I apologize, however 1.6 million is still several hundred thousand off the true make up of the Indianapolis area. To compare Indy to St. Louis city limit populations in my opinion is slightly crazy as well and should be disregarded. I have been through St. Louis on business as recent as 3 weeks ago, and St. Louis simply feels twice the size of Indy with atleast twice the density. But hey, atleast dt Indy kicks St. Louis's ass!! LoL

[Cincinnatus]

unvrsty07, unless Indianapolis grew by almost a million in one year, then you sir are incorrect.

[NaptownBoy]

Naptown, you know perfectly well no one can "prove" a hypothetical.

I did previously demonstrate that Minneapolis appears to be far denser than even the old city of Indianapolis (one mile radius of 49th and College). St. Louis has suffered a catastrophic population drop, but the built environment is still that of a 19th century river city, much denser than Indy. And if you think Phoenix is so low density, go over to google and look at some aerials. It may not be San Francisco, but it is much denser than is generally believed.

And transit plan in Indianapolis, to be successful, would have to be coupled with an extensive set of public policy changes to take advantage of it, notably not just allowing but requiring high density TOD near stops, upgrading the physical infrastructure near them, building connections around, not using stops for huge park and ride lots, etc. I don't see any evidence that this is on the table.
Sorry, I still need to see some evidence that Indy can't support light rail. When you look at the facts, there are cities that are similar in size, density, and even more autocentric than we are and yet have successfully implemented rail.

Will we need to make some changes here? Absolutely. Will it be successful? My guess is as good as anyone's.

[NaptownBoy]

Cincinnatus, you actually seem to be the one that jumped the gun a bit. All was being mentioned, which I think most understood, was that the City of Indianapolis has more people than <insert any city not in the top 11 that has rail>. You are the one that jumped in and started measuring weiners
Agreed. No one is doubting that St. Louis has a denser infrastructure and a larger metro, but Greater Indianapolis is growing MUCH faster, after all. There's a good bit of undocumented growth thanks to immigration from Mexico, too. Wouldn't be surprised if we approached 2,000,000 after the 2010 Census.

St. Louis is bigger than Indy. Minneapolis-St. Paul is bigger than St. Louis. Let's thank him for informing us of this startling development.

[Cincinnatus]

Cincinnatus, you actually seem to be the one that jumped the gun a bit.

Agreed. No one is doubting that St. Louis has a denser infrastructure and a larger metro

Really, Naptown? Did you read anything of the previous statements from your wise, knowledgeable co-Indy dwellers?

Saint Louis may have a dense built environment, but it has far fewer people still than Indianapolis. Their heavy rail system has been quite successful.

Within city limits. Metro wise it (Indy) is larger.

[NaptownBoy]

Did you read anything of the previous statements from your wise, knowledgeable co-Indy dwellers?
Of course I did. What's your point?

Two people made erroneous statements, but later corrected them. You're the one who took the thread off topic in the first place.

[Cincinnatus]

Two people made erroneous statements, but later corrected them.

After I corrected them, which is how I was involved in the first place. If they've corrected them after someone brings it to their attention, then why go on and on about it?

[socrates#1fan]

You're right, Indy is at 1.7 million now and St. Louis is at 2.8 million ... :cheers:

U.S. Census meet unvrsty07:

http://www.census.gov/popest/metro/CBSA-est2007-pop-chg.html


There's no need to go on and ruin this thread. You guys are out of your damn mind. The two metros are no where near each other in size. Not even close. Yes, Indy needs LRT, but to compare the two cities, because they are similar in size is ludicrous.... and socrates#1fan, for the love of god, I am showing you metro #'s. Metro/MSA/region=an area's real population.

I'm not denying that.:nuts:
The STL area has more people than Indy, yes.
I am talking about CITY LIMITS.
It just means that inside the magical lines we have more people than STL but when we use the big metro magic lines STL has more people inside their magical line than us.
You are kind of sensitive.(FYI not trying to be a dick.)

[socrates#1fan]

Really?







All 3 statements are wrong.

2, I pointed out I meant St. Louis metro was larger, I should have been more specific.

[socrates#1fan]

Agreed. No one is doubting that St. Louis has a denser infrastructure and a larger metro, but Greater Indianapolis is growing MUCH faster, after all. There's a good bit of undocumented growth thanks to immigration from Mexico, too. Wouldn't be surprised if we approached 2,000,000 after the 2010 Census.

St. Louis is bigger than Indy. Minneapolis-St. Paul is bigger than St. Louis. Let's thank him for informing us of this startling development.

Yeah, I'm sure everyone is happy to say 'guess how many illegal aliens we have!'
:ohno:.
Now, the legal latino community is contributing at an increasing rate to our city's population.

[socrates#1fan]

After I corrected them, which is how I was involved in the first place. If they've corrected them after someone brings it to their attention, then why go on and on about it?

Oh good god.
You seriously think I thought Indianapolis had a larger metro than STL?
I never knew my laziness of pointing out which city I was talking about would make someone bitch so much.

[Cincinnatus]

I'm not denying that.:nuts:
The STL area has more people than Indy, yes.
I am talking about CITY LIMITS.
It just means that inside the magical lines we have more people than STL but when we use the big metro magic lines STL has more people inside their magical line than us.

So, if we took Indy and drew up 62 sq. mi. from the city-center, it would have more people than STL?

Or, if we took 365 sq. mi. around STL's city-center, it wouldn't be larger?

No comparison whatsoever.

[socrates#1fan]

So, if we took Indy and drew up 62 sq. mi. from the city-center, it would have more people than STL?

Or, if we took 365 sq. mi. around STL's city-center, it wouldn't be larger?

No comparison whatsoever.
It may I don't know.
Yes, yes it would because you would be taking population from the metro.
I'm speaking purely of city limits. City limit populations don't typically determine economic power, influence, etc as much as a metro population does.
Like I said, Indy has a larger city limit population than STL due to annexation of suburbs added onto a large central city population(but! Of course, not as large as STL! ;) ).

[cwilson758]

STL is the most-dense, architecturally significant, economic powerhouse this side of Hong Kong.

[socrates#1fan]

It is the center of the world.
Can we move on?

[ablerock]

STL is the most-dense, architecturally significant, economic powerhouse this side of Hong Kong.

:lol::nuts:

[ablerock]

Arenn posted over in the Indianapolis seciton that the transit authority asked for approximately $100 m for mass transit. Is that a northside group, arenn, or the Indianpolis Transit Authority? I'm not even sure if I'm calling it the right thing!

Anyway, I'm still a little perplexed that Indy didn't jump on this federal $ opportunity and ask for say, $500 m to build a regional starter system or at least a train to the airport.

Anybody know anything about this or understand the city's line of thinking?

[cwilson758]

With Ballard at the helm, even the City doesn't understand the City's line of thinking. Remember, they "misunderstood" the original request from the Feds.

[arenn]

I think it was Hamilton County governments who requested the transit funds.

As I suggested in my blog, the city needs to take a mulligan on its stimulus list.

[ablerock]

With Ballard at the helm, even the City doesn't understand the City's line of thinking. Remember, they "misunderstood" the original request from the Feds.

Yeah, I'm always trying to be more nice about it, but that's just a huge mistake.

Who knows who we can contact to complain?

[JivecitySTL]

Socrates, you are so weird. What is the point of basing anything off city population alone without any consideration of urbanized and/or metro population? If you go only by city population, then Jacksonville is larger than Boston and San Francisco, and El Paso is larger than Washington, DC and Seattle. In other words, CITY POPULATION MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about a place's true size and influence. There is really no point whatsoever in even mentioning it.

If you really want to get a sense of how "big" a city/metro feels, then judge it by Urbanized Area population, which measures only the continuously urbanized areas surrounding major cities:

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

I'm sorry, and I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but come on-- Indianapolis and St. Louis are in two different leagues when it comes to urban fabric and infrastructure. There is simply no comparison. Indy's built environment is like a genital wart compared to St. Louis. That's really just a fact.

[gregarious]

Socrates, you are so weird. What is the point of basing anything off city population alone without any consideration of urbanized and/or metro population? If you go only by city population, then Jacksonville is larger than Boston and San Francisco, and El Paso is larger than Washington, DC and Seattle. In other words, CITY POPULATION MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about a place's true size and influence. There is really no point whatsoever in even mentioning it.

If you really want to get a sense of how "big" a city/metro feels, then judge it by Urbanized Area population, which measures only the continuously urbanized areas surrounding major cities:

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

I'm sorry, and I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but come on-- Indianapolis and St. Louis are in two different leagues when it comes to urban fabric and infrastructure. There is simply no comparison. Indy's built environment is like a genital wart compared to St. Louis. That's really just a fact.

Those numbers seem a little off. Ithought the Indy MSA was about 1.6 million in 2000 and STl about 2.1, which I agree is a significant difference? The more alarming stat was that Indy grew by 16+% and STL was around 3%.

So in a decade or two, the "genital wart" may outgrow the body. Sorry

[JivecitySTL]

Those numbers seem a little off. Ithought the Indy MSA was about 1.6 million in 2000 and STl about 2.1, which I agree is a significant difference?

Wrong. In 2000, Indianapolis had 1.6 million, as compared to STL's 2.6 million-- a difference of 1 million people, or roughly the size of metropolitan Louisville. That actually is a big difference.

The more alarming stat was that Indy grew by 16+% and STL was around 3%.

So in a decade or two, the "genital wart" may outgrow the body. Sorry

You're right-- Indy is growing much faster than most metros in the Midwest, but that still won't make it more interesting. It's like comparing Houston to Boston.

[cwilson758]

Wow, I see the weiner fight is still going....

[socrates#1fan]

Oh Jesus christ.
I never said it meant ANYTHING.
If you read what I said you would kow that!
STL is bigger in METRO. All I said is Indy had more people within it's city limits.
That is a fact, and means little.
STL has a BIGGER metro. I said that to begin with.
Good lord, sensative much?
Where did this idea that I'm bashing STL come from?
Or that I said city populations are more important than metros?!
My god.
FYI
Obama-Biden. Yes we did! :cheer:

[hoosier]

I don't think the cultural divide between Indy and Saint Louis is comparable to the one between Houston and Boston.

Houston has way more room to expand than Boston whereas both Indy and Saint Louis have plenty of elbow room to grow, but only one metro actually is.

[JivecitySTL]

I don't think the cultural divide between Indy and Saint Louis is comparable to the one between Houston and Boston.

Houston has way more room to expand than Boston whereas both Indy and Saint Louis have plenty of elbow room to grow, but only one metro actually is.

True, the cultural divide between Indianapolis and St. Louis is not as disparate as that between Houston and Boston, but it should be noted that metro St. Louis is growing, albeit not as fast as Indianapolis.

[socrates#1fan]

True, the cultural divide between Indianapolis and St. Louis is not as disparate as that between Houston and Boston, but it should be noted that metro St. Louis is growing, albeit not as fast as Indianapolis.

Did someone compare us to Houston? I am insulted! :nuts:

[Indymac]

I just want to commend Jivecity on a great and thorough thread-jacking.

Anyway, is there anything that has happened with this since the beginning of the year?

[GarfieldPark]

The Indianapolis MPO selected HNTB consultants to prepare the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for the NE corridor rapid transit line. It is just now getting started. It will likely be around the end of 2010, early 2011 before the statement is completed - with all of its findings on the various environmental impacts of the various alternatives. If the federal transit administration agrees with the findings of the DEIS, it will become a Final EIS and whatever the findings are --- the regional transit authority will be able to move forward in applying to get federal "New Starts" funds to pay for whatever rapid transit solution is approved.

[EddieB317]

Indy Star Article 10/22/2009 on the transit referendum

http://www.indystar.com/article/20091022/LOCAL/910220432/-1/frontpagecities/Expert++Referendum+might+fund+mass+transit


Ball State Archives about Transit in Indiana.

http://ddarchive.blogspot.com/2009/07/connecting-corridor-indianapolis-to.html

[cailes]

After some digging, this is the most news I was able to dig up on the NE corridor rail "stuff". I dont know if this is NEW or not, but it doesnt say any environmental study is completed, and based upon some other reading, it appears that the city didnt take advantage of fast tracking it. Of course, I could be reading things wrong. There is a lot of information out there, and its easy to get confused.

Any news on this Cory?

http://www.indympo.org/Plans/Regional/Documents/2030_RTP_Fall_2009_Update.pdf

From pages 17/18
Rapid Transit Study
The MPO rapid transit study known as DiRecTionS examined options for high-quality transit service in the region and specifically the Northeast Corridor, including possible rail transit. Currently the process is at the point where alternatives analyses are being completed and the draft environmental impact statement (DEIS) is being conducted. Conclusions and recommendations from this study will be integrated into the Transportation Plan when the DEIS is completed

Central Indiana Regional Transportation Authority (CIRTA)
The Indianapolis MPO continues to work towards a multi modal regional transportation system. The MPO played a key role in the formation of the Central Indiana Regional Transportation Authority (CIRTA), which will plan for and coordinate transit services on a regional scale.
The mission of CIRTA is to develop a comprehensive regional transportation system serving all people in Central Indiana.

Presently CIRTA is working with the MPO to conduct a Draft Environmental Impact Statement in a corridor with a high potential as the region’s initial rapid transit facility. CIRTA is also conducting an aggressive public education campaign aimed at improving regional understanding of transit and its acceptance among citizens, business leaders, and elected officials. CIRTA is playing a key role in advancing CMAQ funded opportunities including the introduction of regional commuter services such as express bus and ride share initiatives.
Current guidance for the implementation of regional transit comes from two sources: the Regional Mass Transit Service Plan developed in conjunction with the Central Indiana Regional Transit Alliance, which has been adopted as a component of the Regional Transportation Plan; and DiRecTionS, a study of regional rapid and local transit. The Mass Transit Service Plan is more of a policy document than a plan, outlining strategic opportunities and challenges for future regional transit. The implementation of Regional Transportation Authority and the study of regional rapid transit were both recommendations of the Service Plan. DiRecTionS is simultaneously a feasibility study and a development of a proposal for regional transit, including local and express bus service at a minimum, and possibly regional fixed-guideway transit.

[cwilson758]

It is my understanding that we are just begininning the environmental stage.

However, there is chatter that a line will be up and running "in time for the SuperBowl."

[cailes]

That is interesting. I suppose if you have enough people pushing and all that.