INDIANAPOLIS | Light Commuter Rail | App

[cwilson758]

As a member of the Policy Committee that voted today, I would like to share with you all the good news:

Indy-Noblesville commuter rail plan wins first vote

The Indianapolis Regional Transportation Council this morning voted unanimously in favor of a proposal to use diesel engines on a 19-mile rail line from Noblesville to Downtown Indianapolis for the region's first of seven proposed rapid transit lines.

The council consists of 43 officials from local governments and public agencies throughout the eight-county area and provides policy oversight for the Indianapolis Metropolitan Planning Organization. Thirty of its members showed up for the vote -- and everyone voted yes.


The council's decision is an endorsement of the MPO's recommendation for a $160 million system with five to six stations along the Nickel Plate line.

MPO Manager Mike Dearing said the vote was just one of several hurdles before the rail line become a reality.

He said funding still needs to be found and an environmental study needs to be undertaken to determine specific locations for stations, where land needs to be acquired, and the impact on noise and air quality, wetlands, historical properties, flood plains and endangered species.

Still, planners have said the system could be up and running as soon as 2012. At first, older diesel engines would be used.

Eventually, the plan calls for diesel multiple units powered by a built-in engine that is more energy-efficient and produces less pollution and noise than heavier locomotives.

By 2035, the line could have as many as 19 stations and two lines of track costing $690 million and drawing 5,900 riders a day.



All of the members had to make a brief statement concerning the line and all spoke of the economic development issues, pollution and basically "growing up" as a region. Even Mayor Ballard was 100% behind it.

Our next meeting is in October.

[Indywatch]

Okay this will make everyone angry I'm sure, and make people accuse me of being "pro-automobile" which I'm not.

Hmmmm $690,000,000.00 divided by 5,900 people comes out to $116,949.15 per person. Can each rider who benefits from this write a check? I live downtown, work on the Southside and never go to Noblesville. I seriously doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to use the line. Am I supposed to do my tax paying "Patriotic Duty" and help pay for this too when I wont receive any benefit?

[TrafficSignal]

Okay this will make everyone angry I'm sure, and make people accuse me of being "pro-automobile" which I'm not.

Hmmmm $690,000,000.00 divided by 5,900 people comes out to $116,949.15 per person. Can each rider who benefits from this write a check? I live downtown, work on the Southside and never go to Noblesville. I seriously doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to use the line. Am I supposed to do my tax paying "Patriotic Duty" and help pay for this too when I wont receive any benefit?

Just because the first leg ends in Fishers / Noblesville doesn't mean the southside will never get a leg - the system has to start somewhere.

[ak72]

You have a very valid point, however, in that average ridership is not just people riding every day to work, but people coming down just on the weekend for shopping or a sporting event are factored into that, so the money is spread over more people. Getting downtown easier might bring more people for the Pacers games. You say that you will never use this because it doesn't connect Indy-Southside, but the fact is that the most population outside of downtown is the northside, so it would make sense to start there. If this works the line could be expanded west and south and east.

Speaking of expanding east- Cory, is there any plan to extend the rail out to the airport? Or do you think that may be more along the lines of a light rail/people mover system? Either way I think some link besides bus/taxi needs to be in place. Or at least a bus that runs every 10 minutes.

[hoosier]

Why should my tax dollars go to fixing roads that I will never use?

If that line of argument was used in all public expenditure decisions, NOTHING WOULD EVER BE BUILT!!!

[hoosier]

This is an important step in the creation of commuter rail in Indianapolis. Sure it is years too late and will take forever to be built, if it ever is, but a baby step is better than no step right?

[cwilson758]

Okay this will make everyone angry I'm sure, and make people accuse me of being "pro-automobile" which I'm not.

Hmmmm $690,000,000.00 divided by 5,900 people comes out to $116,949.15 per person. Can each rider who benefits from this write a check? I live downtown, work on the Southside and never go to Noblesville. I seriously doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to use the line. Am I supposed to do my tax paying "Patriotic Duty" and help pay for this too when I wont receive any benefit?

IndyWatch- As mentioned, this is a start for a much larger system. You have contibuted funds for The Luke; have you used it? Hoosier makes the point that you pay for roads ALL over this state and country. I doubt you have used all of them. Just

because you may not use it doesn't mean that you won't benefit. Indianapolis misses out on millions of federal dollars each year due to the region being a pollution/ozone capitol. By reducing carbon emmissions, the region will begin to offset the polution and hopefully meet the very minimal air quality standards set out by Washington.

Secondly, TOD, transit-oriented development, will DEFINITELY occur along the various lines. This development will increase the property tax revenue that will help to off-set your own tax bills.

Thirdly, the region, once it joins the "true" North American Urban Club, will be classed in a different league and that too will be a big + for high-tech businesses looking at our region.

Finally, Indianapolis will be one of only a handful of Midwest Cities with rail, something that makes it stand out when compared to Cincy, Columbus, Louisville, etc.

[youngandrestless]

Cory, I was just wondering why the older diesels were decided on. From the feedback meeting I went to it looked like they were really pushing for the DMUs to start the new train service.

Coming to my point, I would rather have something done right than on the cheap. Now I see that the plan is to EVENTUALLY move to DMUs, but shouldn't the start of this rail system have a better look/feel then really old technology that might turn off people at the start?

If we start out by skimping on the train itself what stops us from skimping out on the stations and creating something like all of the shelter-less IndyGo stops around the city.

Sorry to be negative on a first post, but it's just something that worries me.

[hoosier]

I would like the line to be electrified as well and be double tracked but because Washington has no money for important infrastructure investments ( a choice it made) it is up to cash strapped local and state governments to fund public transit projects. Indiana is a very reactionary state that is slow to embrace change. It has to be brought kicking and screaming into the present.

[CorrND]

Okay this will make everyone angry I'm sure, and make people accuse me of being "pro-automobile" which I'm not.

Hmmmm $690,000,000.00 divided by 5,900 people comes out to $116,949.15 per person. Can each rider who benefits from this write a check? I live downtown, work on the Southside and never go to Noblesville. I seriously doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to use the line. Am I supposed to do my tax paying "Patriotic Duty" and help pay for this too when I wont receive any benefit?
$117k per person for the life of the line. What if you divide that cost over 50 years?

50 years * 365 days/year * 5,900 rides/day = 107,675,000 rides

That's about $6.40 per ride, with ancillary societal and environmental benefits.

[SpiderMonkey]

:banana:

Yay! This is a step in the direction. I never thought I would see the day when there would be 30 of 30 votes in favor of moving forward with commuter rail in Indy.

[arenn]

Cory, congrats on making it past this major milestone.

I've said it before, but cities like Columbus, Cincy, and Louisville peaked too soon when it came to rail. Indy and KC, which were laggards, now have an opportunity to make something reality when $4 gas has people primed for change.

[exit_320]

and Milwaukee continues to fail on this subject.. congrats!

[cjfjapan]

Thirdly, the region, once it joins the "true" North American Urban Club, will be classed in a different league and that too will be a big + for high-tech businesses looking at our region.

Finally, Indianapolis will be one of only a handful of Midwest Cities with rail, something that makes it stand out when compared to Cincy, Columbus, Louisville, etc.

I'm very happy to see rail transit coming to Indy, but I disagree that this will put Indy in a different league. Three heavy rail lines in Cleveland, a Buffalo subway and a good system in Pittsburgh have done little to help those cities. Nor, in my estimation, has the line in Minneapolis made the city stand out more than it already does. At best, this will add to Indy's strong repertoire of urban amenities, but I doubt it will be a game-changer.

[Cincinnatus]

Cory, congrats on making it past this major milestone.

I've said it before, but cities like Columbus, Cincy, and Louisville peaked too soon when it came to rail. Indy and KC, which were laggards, now have an opportunity to make something reality when $4 gas has people primed for change.

Peaked too soon? What?! lol ... Look at these streetcar lines and then look at our most dense neighborhoods:

http://www.cincinnativiews.net/images-3/1911%20Traction%20Company%20routes.jpg

[cwilson758]

Cory, congrats on making it past this major milestone.

I've said it before, but cities like Columbus, Cincy, and Louisville peaked too soon when it came to rail. Indy and KC, which were laggards, now have an opportunity to make something reality when $4 gas has people primed for change.

Arenn-

Thanks, but I can hardly take credit; that goes to the MPO. I am just a member of the committee.

Cincinnatus-

I see where Arenn is coming from in the sense that those cities brought the rail votes up at a time when gas was nowhere near where it is today. Face it, in this region of the US, we love our cars and to sell a system, eventhough it seems common sense to us, is a battle unless you are aided by a floundering "system."

[cailes]

I sincerely hope that the people driving this thing, can find the funds ina place other than a tax.

I only say this because with the property tax changes adding to sales tax and the stadium being built adding another 1%, its getting EXPENSIVE to shop for anything in Indianapolis these days. I know its a few cents here and a few cents there, but it adds up when you look at your receipt.

That said, I am still for the rail line. This is a big deal and it shows our pears in the midwest, and even those further out watching, that indy is commited to progress, once again

[arenn]

Cincinnatus, Cincy had proposed a major light rail line (not the streetcar) a while back, no? IIRC it was on the ballot and voted down. Whatever the case, it seems like there was a major push a while back, then it just died.

[Cincinnatus]

I see where Arenn is coming from in the sense that those cities brought the rail votes up at a time when gas was nowhere near where it is today. Face it, in this region of the US, we love our cars and to sell a system, eventhough it seems common sense to us, is a battle unless you are aided by a floundering "system."

Ohhh ... lol, obviously I was on a difference page completely!

Well, I don't understand then since a streetcar system is still in the works ... with LRT in discussions in regards to our subway tunnels?

[confused04]

Are there any provisions for this line to possibly be extended in case of the likely expansion of the suburbs? The North Star Line currently does not extend to St. Cloud in Minnesota but there are plans to extend it that far because planners figured the corridor would begin to infill. 19 miles just seems pretty short to justify that kinda investment.

I am glad though that more cities are putting the money in to advance mass transit. Sure its expensive, but what isn't these days. I find it laughable that people complain about the subsidization of mass transit when highways and roads are for the most part COMPLETELY subsidized. Yea, some roads of tolls, but to my knowledge, no toll road pays for itself or even comes close to revenue generated by mass transit. Figures I've seen for MetroTransit have said about 1/3 to 40% of the operating costs are covered by fares, I don't think tolls cover 40% of road costs. It only makes sense to start investing in mass transit.

[cwilson758]

Yes, at the meeting on Friday there comments conerning the Nickel Plate Line being designed to go beyond 146th Street. It could go east to Anderson/Muncie, west to Carmel, or North to Cicero.

Further, I really think that Mayor Ballard is going to push to get this first segment to extend all the way to IND. It makes total sense to have a train run from 146th Street all the way to IND.

[cailes]

Didnt they make provisions for this anyway?

[cwilson758]

I would love for our leaders to use this "bailout" plan as a means to allocate a lot of funds to the major metros in this Country so that ALL OF THEM could invest in rail. We are woefully behind the 8-ball internationally when it comes to transit and what better way than passing a 2008-version of the "New Deal" so that we can begin investing in our aging and underfunded infrastructure.

[speedblue47]

cory - let us hope they don't. I wouldn't want our current economic troubles being prolonged like the Great Depression was by arrogant policies like the New Deal.

What is needed instead is to let private enterprise compete in the transit industry, like it did pre-WW II. It is odd that we once had dozens of interurbans and streetcars operators by many different companies and you could live in Indy without a car, but once the city took over the lines operation, there was a single point of contact for automobile manufacturers to impress the advantages of bus transit on, which in turn led to a decline in ridership until the system as a whole went defunct(along with a general reduction in quality of service and an increase in headways, as well as federally-funded highways).

But, alas, I understand that there will more than likely be no major move towards privatization in transit anytime soon, so let's at least do something that is more responsible. Merge IndyGo and CIRTA and force them to create a solution for the region - since the cities in this region are so interdependent economically and culturally. And look at solutions not currently being thought about in other cities in America. I personally believe that CIRTA and IndyGo could work out a technology transfer agreement with APTS for their Phileas automated BRT system. These system's operate buses of various sizes on at-grade or seperate grade ROWs in either automatic or manual operating modes. The only thing that needs to be installed are small magnets in the pavement and stations that meet the system's guidelines. The buses can travel at highway speeds and hybrid and electric bus options are being looked at. We could probably purchase a 60 bus system that could provide service to many areas of the city for the same price as the rail line could be built for the NE corridor. There is also a fixed-place investment, which should in theory bring at least some measure of the land-use benefits of rail transit options but with much lower initial capital costs, quicker rollout time, and quite possibly lower operating costs(automatic operation saves need for individual attendants in each vehicle).

That's my post for the month

P.S.: In case you are wondering, I also hope this bailout plan just doesn't happen. Something more similar to the setup during the S&L crisis would be acceptable, where the government receives loans and/or assets from banks that go into receivership(through FDIC) and then selling those assets and/or loans to market participants. Not just buying every "subprime" loan where the government will pay way too much for assets they have no means to valuate, and then sell them at a probable loss.

[hoosier]

Cory is right. We need another New Deal to rebuild this country. Private enterprise will not give us the infrastructure we need.

[_ttam_]

$117k per person for the life of the line. What if you divide that cost over 50 years?

50 years * 365 days/year * 5,900 rides/day = 107,675,000 rides

That's about $6.40 per ride, with ancillary societal and environmental benefits.

Sorry man your calculation doesn't make sense. Where does it talk about operating costs over the same period? It looks like it says 690 Mill is what it will cost for the full line with all stations to be built. The first 160 Mil is only going for used trains and 5 or 6 stations! And no train lasts 50 years--they'll buy new trains every 15 years, spend billions on maintenance, and labor and operations costs. That $6.40 goes up to $20.00 a ride real fast--and this for a FRACTION of one percent of the population.

Trains never make financial sense. There's a reason we moved away from them. Very few use all those cold, slow, inconvenient trains. But we ALL use roads (even if you ride a train every day, you surely buy food or goods--unless you grow everything in your backyard and darn your own wool).

And to top it all off, your "$6.40 per ride for 50 years" price tag is paid 99.9% by people who will never USE the train!

[CorrND]

Sorry man your calculation doesn't make sense. Where does it talk about operating costs over the same period? It looks like it says 690 Mill is what it will cost for the full line with all stations to be built. The first 160 Mil is only going for used trains and 5 or 6 stations! And no train lasts 50 years--they'll buy new trains every 15 years, spend billions on maintenance, and labor and operations costs. That $6.40 goes up to $20.00 a ride real fast--and this for a FRACTION of one percent of the population.
You're taking that calculation too literally. That wasn't meant to be a definitive cost analysis and the numbers were just pulled out of thin air (notice that I didn't justify any assumptions, including the 50 year lifetime). It was meant to be a rough calculation to refute the other claim that this was going to cost over $100k per rider, which I thought was a rather dubious way of presenting the cost. If it costs $20 per ride instead of $6.40, that's fine.

And to top it all off, your "$6.40 per ride for 50 years" price tag is paid 99.9% by people who will never USE the train!
That line is used repeatedly. Your tax dollars are used on roads that you'll never drive on as well. That doesn't mean they're not worth building.

[runNgunn]

I noticed in the HSR bill that just went through Congress there is now a federal mediator for disputes between freight railroads and commuter railroads about trackage and right-of-ways. It is non-binding mediation though. It would only affect the Nickel Plate Line if there was a dispute. If I remember right, there would be some shared trackage or right-of-way around Union Station so it might be a possibility. (If you want to see the legislation go http://thomas.loc.gov/ and do a search for "commuter rail mediation".)

[cailes]

My wife and I were in Missouri wine country this past weekend. We visited with some friends.

Travelling along I-44 out of St Louis, there were many signs for www.morail.org

I checked it out this morning, and there is some interesting information on there. One link of note was the midwest rail initiative which I thought was really good reading.

http://www.modot.org/pdf/newsandinfo/railmidwest.pdf

Worth checking out

[runNgunn]

With an economic stimulus bill likely coming from Congress in the next few months, does anyone see Indy profiting much in the way of federal money for light rail and other transit? (If there is a sizable transportation infrastructure portion of the bill as I have been hearing is planned.)

[cwilson758]

Yes. I think that the Cities who are currently in the process of jumping thru all of the hopes for federal $$ are going to get a big Christmas present in the form of allocation of funds for light rail.

[ragerunner1]

Yes. I think that the Cities who are currently in the process of jumping thru all of the hopes for federal $$ are going to get a big Christmas present in the form of allocation of funds for light rail.

Agreed, if you are a community that has its light rail plans mostly completed and ready to go you may very well get a big belated Christmas present by early 2009. I think those cities that don't have their engineering and environmental studies done yet (these take years) may find they are a little to late.

[runNgunn]

I think those cities that don't have their engineering and environmental studies done yet (these take years) may find they are a little to late.

Another question from the uninformed...

Has Indy completed engineering and/or environmental studies for the whole city or just for the Nickel Plate Line? (I am thinking the latter is the case, but wanted to be sure.)

[arenn]

As near as I can tell, Indy hasn't completed the environmental documentation for anything yet. The Directions study appears to be a "Tier 1" type EIS, meaning the detailed environmental studies on the preferred alternative remain to be completed. Actually, I don't know if they have even been started yet. No engineering work is done.

[cwilson758]

Based off of my memory, we have fully completed ridership forecast/projects and those have been accepted by the Feds. Environmental was to start this year, if I recall.

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

just in time for gas prices to be less than a buck fifty.... if I can recall correctly... some of you said they "WOULD ONLY GET HIGHER." This issue is DOA until gas prices go back up. Why should light rail be built by mortgaging the future of young Americans. This bailout madness needs to stop! We are well on our way from being one of the wealthiest nations in the world to....well whatever we are now. At the hands of EVERY politican, local and national....stop spending $$$ on pipedreams and focus on necessities.

[benjaminooo]

just in time for gas prices to be less than a buck fifty.... if I can recall correctly... some of you said they "WOULD ONLY GET HIGHER." This issue is DOA until gas prices go back up. Why should light rail be built by mortgaging the future of young Americans. This bailout madness needs to stop! We are well on our way from being one of the wealthiest nations in the world to....well whatever we are now. At the hands of EVERY politican, local and national....stop spending $$$ on pipedreams and focus on necessities.

Uh... just because gas is "cheap" now doesn't mean we should move ahead with mass transit. It's a necessity.

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

Alternative fuels are a necessity, mass transit is not. It is usually a bragging right that cities use to try to prove they have hit the big time. Rail will continue to be a huge waste of money in our area. Improving indygo would be the logical thing to do, yet we want to show off and waste money. Like our country needs to throw any more federal funds down the toilet.

[hoosier]

Alternative fuels are a necessity, mass transit is not. It is usually a bragging right that cities use to try to prove they have hit the big time. Rail will continue to be a huge waste of money in our area. Improving indygo would be the logical thing to do, yet we want to show off and waste money. Like our country needs to throw any more federal funds down the toilet.

Once again you reveal your ignorance to everyone.

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

Once again you reveal your ignorance to everyone.
Once again you reveal the urge you have to insult and call people names when you don't agree with them. Personally, I think its ignorant to spend even more money when our country is headed toward a depression. Before light rail becomes anything more than a waste of money, you'll have to change the mindset of commuters. Have you ever seen the show ecopolis on the discovery channel? It's hosted by the head of the energy commission and a Nobel prize winner. He said the same thing. If the mindset doesn't change, mass transit will be a waste of money.

[benjaminooo]

Once again you reveal the urge you have to insult and call people names when you don't agree with them. Personally, I think its ignorant to spend even more money when our country is headed toward a depression. Before light rail becomes anything more than a waste of money, you'll have to change the mindset of commuters. Have you ever seen the show ecopolis on the discovery channel? It's hosted by the head of the energy commission and a Nobel prize winner. He said the same thing. If the mindset doesn't change, mass transit will be a waste of money.

Being called ignorant isn't an insult.

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

Being called ignorant isn't an insult.

Since when? To belittle someone in a fashion that you are "all knowing" and anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, or somehow less intelligent than you is not insulting? I'll write that down in the notes section of my copy of "enlightenment for dummies." However, when light rail fails miserably in Indianapolis it should be proof enough. But I won't call you ignorant, so don't worry.

[socrates#1fan]

I feel the rails will help the central city and commuters from the suburb. However, it does not mean the city is suddenly going to be all 'mass transit'.
I don't think it will fail miserably. The bus system is packed and even though gas is cheap, it is still cheaper for a lot of people to ride the bus.
Add that to a central city that gets denser and denser and parking gets harder and harder to find, than you will eventually have a steady flow of passengers for these rails.

[socrates#1fan]

just in time for gas prices to be less than a buck fifty.... if I can recall correctly... some of you said they "WOULD ONLY GET HIGHER." This issue is DOA until gas prices go back up. Why should light rail be built by mortgaging the future of young Americans. This bailout madness needs to stop! We are well on our way from being one of the wealthiest nations in the world to....well whatever we are now. At the hands of EVERY politican, local and national....stop spending $$$ on pipedreams and focus on necessities.

With the cuts in OPEC production and already declining production in many places gas prices are bound to get higher once the economy improves.
The cuts by OPEC could actually be dangerous.

[socrates#1fan]

Once again you reveal the urge you have to insult and call people names when you don't agree with them. Personally, I think its ignorant to spend even more money when our country is headed toward a depression. Before light rail becomes anything more than a waste of money, you'll have to change the mindset of commuters. Have you ever seen the show ecopolis on the discovery channel? It's hosted by the head of the energy commission and a Nobel prize winner. He said the same thing. If the mindset doesn't change, mass transit will be a waste of money.

Depression is a pretty strong word, however it should not be ruled out just in case. Also, we can't halt spending on everything. I agree we have to be wise but at the same time there is a lot of demand for this and the city should go through with it. However, they need to be wise about it. It is one thing to invest in something like a new foot ball stadium, but it is different to invest in needed infrastructure.
But I do agree, we have to be wiser about our spending.

[socrates#1fan]

Being called ignorant isn't an insult.

No offense, but it is considerably insulting.
There is a difference between illiteracy and ignorance.
Ignorance is typically used in argument when people go without knowledge into a subject or refuse/choose not to get the knowledge.
Illiteracy is typically used for one who may have good understanding, but a poor education.

[socrates#1fan]

Once again you reveal your ignorance to everyone.

That is no way to debate with one.
Insults seal the debate as without a respectful ending and more like a childish argument.

[cwilson758]

Back on the transit topic, PLEEZE

[ablerock]

Back on the transit topic, PLEEZE

Word.

Anyone heard any rumblings from the Downtown Indianapolis Streetcar Corp. lately?

http://indianapolisstreetcar.org/home.html

[hoosier]

Yes, light-rail in Indy would fail the way it did in Minneapolis, Denver, Salt Lake City, and CHarlotte (oh wait, light rail is FLOURISHING in all of those cities and is being expanded).

Hell, even PHOENIX, decentralized, low density PHOENIX, just opened a 20 mile light-rail line.

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

until gas prices came back down. Now I'm sure many are finding reasons to use the car.

[socrates#1fan]

until gas prices came back down. Now I'm sure many are finding reasons to use the car.

Actually gas consumption is still dropping even as gas gets incredibly cheap.
The problem is, is that once the economy improves the gas prices will continue to rise due to supply and demand.
Cars won't vanish, but public transportation is sure to make a comeback along with density.

[hoosier]

until gas prices came back down. Now I'm sure many are finding reasons to use the car.

Light rail was FLOURISHING in these cities BEFORE gas prices spiked.

But by all means, please continue to spew bullshit. Everyone knows you have no fucking clue about what you write.

[TrafficSignal]

hoosier - I'm pretty sure I know your response (an angry, expletive laced "I don't care"), but you're on my ignore list now since you can't seem to have a civil discussion. First and only on my list too, so congrats!

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

It's the same with Indygo. People will do whatever is most convenient. I don't believe there are dense enough areas around here to make light rail more convenient than using a car. Thats what those other cities have going for them. They aren't sprawled on flat cornfields, so they have dense pockets to service with light rail. I know you want it to work. So do I. I just don't believe it will. There isn't a real plan, and without a longterm plan, plopping down a rail line will not fix any problems.

[NaptownBoy]

Great stuff. Here's my .02:

First, the city needs some sort of alternate transit option. This isn't just some kind of "build it just because" type of deal; we're talking about a game-changer. It's inevitable that we're going to need rail at some point, and there is no way that we can maintain the habits we have now and still commute feasibly in the long run.

Second, the density argument doesn't work. Rail has been successfully implemented in cities such as Charlotte, Minneapolis, Salt Lake City, St. Louis, Phoenix, etc. None of these cities are New York by any means, and it isn't like Indy has like 2 people per square mile, either.

Finally, it's useless to speculate that people won't ride a rail system if it were to be implemented here without evidence to back up said claim. No one knows that for certain, and it could just as easily be argued that people would ride in droves. Obviously people don't ride IndyGo because the system is terrible and needs to be fixed, but we're talking about a whole different concept.

[arenn]

Naptown, you know perfectly well no one can "prove" a hypothetical.

I did previously demonstrate that Minneapolis appears to be far denser than even the old city of Indianapolis (one mile radius of 49th and College). St. Louis has suffered a catastrophic population drop, but the built environment is still that of a 19th century river city, much denser than Indy. And if you think Phoenix is so low density, go over to google and look at some aerials. It may not be San Francisco, but it is much denser than is generally believed.

And transit plan in Indianapolis, to be successful, would have to be coupled with an extensive set of public policy changes to take advantage of it, notably not just allowing but requiring high density TOD near stops, upgrading the physical infrastructure near them, building connections around, not using stops for huge park and ride lots, etc. I don't see any evidence that this is on the table.

[hoosier]

Saint Louis may have a dense built environment, but it has far fewer people still than Indianapolis. Their heavy rail system has been quite successful.

Dallas and CHarlotte are not high density cities either but have successful and growing light rail systems.

Indianapolis has the nodes of commerical and residential density to support commuter or light rail.

[hoosier]

It's the same with Indygo. People will do whatever is most convenient. I don't believe there are dense enough areas around here to make light rail more convenient than using a car. Thats what those other cities have going for them. They aren't sprawled on flat cornfields, so they have dense pockets to service with light rail. I know you want it to work. So do I. I just don't believe it will. There isn't a real plan, and without a longterm plan, plopping down a rail line will not fix any problems.

Charlotte and Dallas are both flat cities that are surrounded by undeveloped lands. Chicago is "sprawled" on flat cornfields as well, as is every Midwest city since that is the predominant use of land.

[Cincinnatus]

Saint Louis may have a dense built environment, but it has far fewer people still than Indianapolis. Their heavy rail system has been quite successful.

STL's density is double that of Indy's and its metro is more than a million more than Indy's?

[socrates#1fan]

STL's density is double that of Indy's and its metro is more than a million more than Indy's?

Within city limits.
Metro wise it is larger. Indianapolis also has more people within it's city limits than SF. It isn't a miracle of people moving back into our central city and returning to the population density of 1900, it is that a lot of suburbs and towns were annexed and empty space filled with those annoying apartment complexes.

[Cincinnatus]

Within city limits.
Metro wise it is larger.

What? lol

Indy's metro - ~1.6 million
STL - ~2.6 million

Indianapolis also has more people within it's city limits than SF.

If that's true, then it's probably because it's almost 400 f**kin square miles! lol


STL's metro isn't a little larger than Indy's ... it's a lot larger.

[socrates#1fan]

STL's density is double that of Indy's and its metro is more than a million more than Indy's?

Within city limits it has more people. No one is questioning the FACT that STL Is denser than Indianapolis. STL metro has more people than Indy's metro, yes.
STL has about 400k in it's city limits, Indy has about double that.
What is the issue here?

[socrates#1fan]

What? lol

Indy's metro - ~1.6 million
STL - ~2.6 million



If that's true, then it's probably because it's almost 400 f**kin square miles! lol


STL's metro isn't a little larger than Indy's ... it's a lot larger.

I meant STL has a larger metro.
Yes, its nearly 1 million more people, that isn't a small number. If I said so I was wrong. XP
Indianapolis isn't NYC but it isn't LA either. It has some dense areas(granted the city isn't made up of sprawling row houses.).
Indianapolis annexed a lot of suburbs and it has been lucky enough to keep a great deal of it's population with itself instead of it's suburbs.

[socrates#1fan]

STL has about 67 SQ miles. Here in Indy where we have some elbow room we have a whopping 370 SQ miles. Bring on the sprawl bitches.

[unvrsty07]

St. Louis is more like three quarters a million. Indianapolis metro is over 2 million as of 2008 and St. louis is at 2.8 million. Emporis.com which I trust and love. Indy has been at 1.6 million since the 2000 census... Yet had 10% growth rate, come on now!?

[Cincinnatus]

St. Louis is more like three quarters a million. Indianapolis metro is over 2 million as of 2008 and St. louis is at 2.8 million. Emporis.com which I trust and love. Indy has been at 1.6 million since the 2000 census... Yet had 10% growth rate, come on now!?

You're right, Indy is at 1.7 million now and St. Louis is at 2.8 million ... :cheers:

U.S. Census meet unvrsty07:

http://www.census.gov/popest/metro/CBSA-est2007-pop-chg.html


There's no need to go on and ruin this thread. You guys are out of your damn mind. The two metros are no where near each other in size. Not even close. Yes, Indy needs LRT, but to compare the two cities, because they are similar in size is ludicrous.... and socrates#1fan, for the love of god, I am showing you metro #'s. Metro/MSA/region=an area's real population.

[cwilson758]

You're right, Indy is at 1.7 million now and St. Louis is at 2.8 million ... :cheers:

U.S. Census meet unvrsty07:

http://www.census.gov/popest/metro/CBSA-est2007-pop-chg.html


There's no need to go on and ruin this thread. You guys are out of your damn mind. The two metros are no where near each other in size. Not even close. Yes, Indy needs LRT, but to compare the two cities, because they are similar in size is ludicrous.... and socrates#1fan, for the love of god, I am showing you metro #'s. Metro/MSA/region=an area's real population.

Cincinnatus, you actually seem to be the one that jumped the gun a bit. All was being mentioned, which I think most understood, was that the City of Indianapolis has more people than <insert any city not in the top 11 that has rail>. You are the one that jumped in and started measuring weiners.

As for the Census in 2010 for Indy, expect a big jump. A county of 150,000 that was removed in 2000 will be back in addition to the healthy growth of the region. A metro of 1.9 is certainly within grasp in 2010.

See, I just extended my weiner.

[Cincinnatus]

Cincinnatus, you actually seem to be the one that jumped the gun a bit. All was being mentioned, which I think most understood, was that the City of Indianapolis has more people than <insert any city not in the top 11 that has rail>. You are the one that jumped in and started measuring weiners.

Really?

Saint Louis may have a dense built environment, but it has far fewer people still than Indianapolis. Their heavy rail system has been quite successful.

Within city limits.
Metro wise it is larger.

St. Louis is more like three quarters a million. Indianapolis metro is over 2 million as of 2008

All 3 statements are wrong.

[unvrsty07]

^^^ I am sorry sir but my stat is correct. It was probably an unnecessary post and for that I apologize, however 1.6 million is still several hundred thousand off the true make up of the Indianapolis area. To compare Indy to St. Louis city limit populations in my opinion is slightly crazy as well and should be disregarded. I have been through St. Louis on business as recent as 3 weeks ago, and St. Louis simply feels twice the size of Indy with atleast twice the density. But hey, atleast dt Indy kicks St. Louis's ass!! LoL

[Cincinnatus]

unvrsty07, unless Indianapolis grew by almost a million in one year, then you sir are incorrect.

[NaptownBoy]

Naptown, you know perfectly well no one can "prove" a hypothetical.

I did previously demonstrate that Minneapolis appears to be far denser than even the old city of Indianapolis (one mile radius of 49th and College). St. Louis has suffered a catastrophic population drop, but the built environment is still that of a 19th century river city, much denser than Indy. And if you think Phoenix is so low density, go over to google and look at some aerials. It may not be San Francisco, but it is much denser than is generally believed.

And transit plan in Indianapolis, to be successful, would have to be coupled with an extensive set of public policy changes to take advantage of it, notably not just allowing but requiring high density TOD near stops, upgrading the physical infrastructure near them, building connections around, not using stops for huge park and ride lots, etc. I don't see any evidence that this is on the table.
Sorry, I still need to see some evidence that Indy can't support light rail. When you look at the facts, there are cities that are similar in size, density, and even more autocentric than we are and yet have successfully implemented rail.

Will we need to make some changes here? Absolutely. Will it be successful? My guess is as good as anyone's.

[NaptownBoy]

Cincinnatus, you actually seem to be the one that jumped the gun a bit. All was being mentioned, which I think most understood, was that the City of Indianapolis has more people than <insert any city not in the top 11 that has rail>. You are the one that jumped in and started measuring weiners
Agreed. No one is doubting that St. Louis has a denser infrastructure and a larger metro, but Greater Indianapolis is growing MUCH faster, after all. There's a good bit of undocumented growth thanks to immigration from Mexico, too. Wouldn't be surprised if we approached 2,000,000 after the 2010 Census.

St. Louis is bigger than Indy. Minneapolis-St. Paul is bigger than St. Louis. Let's thank him for informing us of this startling development.

[Cincinnatus]

Cincinnatus, you actually seem to be the one that jumped the gun a bit.

Agreed. No one is doubting that St. Louis has a denser infrastructure and a larger metro

Really, Naptown? Did you read anything of the previous statements from your wise, knowledgeable co-Indy dwellers?

Saint Louis may have a dense built environment, but it has far fewer people still than Indianapolis. Their heavy rail system has been quite successful.

Within city limits. Metro wise it (Indy) is larger.

[NaptownBoy]

Did you read anything of the previous statements from your wise, knowledgeable co-Indy dwellers?
Of course I did. What's your point?

Two people made erroneous statements, but later corrected them. You're the one who took the thread off topic in the first place.

[Cincinnatus]

Two people made erroneous statements, but later corrected them.

After I corrected them, which is how I was involved in the first place. If they've corrected them after someone brings it to their attention, then why go on and on about it?

[socrates#1fan]

You're right, Indy is at 1.7 million now and St. Louis is at 2.8 million ... :cheers:

U.S. Census meet unvrsty07:

http://www.census.gov/popest/metro/CBSA-est2007-pop-chg.html


There's no need to go on and ruin this thread. You guys are out of your damn mind. The two metros are no where near each other in size. Not even close. Yes, Indy needs LRT, but to compare the two cities, because they are similar in size is ludicrous.... and socrates#1fan, for the love of god, I am showing you metro #'s. Metro/MSA/region=an area's real population.

I'm not denying that.:nuts:
The STL area has more people than Indy, yes.
I am talking about CITY LIMITS.
It just means that inside the magical lines we have more people than STL but when we use the big metro magic lines STL has more people inside their magical line than us.
You are kind of sensitive.(FYI not trying to be a dick.)

[socrates#1fan]

Really?







All 3 statements are wrong.

2, I pointed out I meant St. Louis metro was larger, I should have been more specific.

[socrates#1fan]

Agreed. No one is doubting that St. Louis has a denser infrastructure and a larger metro, but Greater Indianapolis is growing MUCH faster, after all. There's a good bit of undocumented growth thanks to immigration from Mexico, too. Wouldn't be surprised if we approached 2,000,000 after the 2010 Census.

St. Louis is bigger than Indy. Minneapolis-St. Paul is bigger than St. Louis. Let's thank him for informing us of this startling development.

Yeah, I'm sure everyone is happy to say 'guess how many illegal aliens we have!'
:ohno:.
Now, the legal latino community is contributing at an increasing rate to our city's population.

[socrates#1fan]

After I corrected them, which is how I was involved in the first place. If they've corrected them after someone brings it to their attention, then why go on and on about it?

Oh good god.
You seriously think I thought Indianapolis had a larger metro than STL?
I never knew my laziness of pointing out which city I was talking about would make someone bitch so much.

[Cincinnatus]

I'm not denying that.:nuts:
The STL area has more people than Indy, yes.
I am talking about CITY LIMITS.
It just means that inside the magical lines we have more people than STL but when we use the big metro magic lines STL has more people inside their magical line than us.

So, if we took Indy and drew up 62 sq. mi. from the city-center, it would have more people than STL?

Or, if we took 365 sq. mi. around STL's city-center, it wouldn't be larger?

No comparison whatsoever.

[socrates#1fan]

So, if we took Indy and drew up 62 sq. mi. from the city-center, it would have more people than STL?

Or, if we took 365 sq. mi. around STL's city-center, it wouldn't be larger?

No comparison whatsoever.
It may I don't know.
Yes, yes it would because you would be taking population from the metro.
I'm speaking purely of city limits. City limit populations don't typically determine economic power, influence, etc as much as a metro population does.
Like I said, Indy has a larger city limit population than STL due to annexation of suburbs added onto a large central city population(but! Of course, not as large as STL! ;) ).

[cwilson758]

STL is the most-dense, architecturally significant, economic powerhouse this side of Hong Kong.

[socrates#1fan]

It is the center of the world.
Can we move on?

[ablerock]

STL is the most-dense, architecturally significant, economic powerhouse this side of Hong Kong.

:lol::nuts:

[ablerock]

Arenn posted over in the Indianapolis seciton that the transit authority asked for approximately $100 m for mass transit. Is that a northside group, arenn, or the Indianpolis Transit Authority? I'm not even sure if I'm calling it the right thing!

Anyway, I'm still a little perplexed that Indy didn't jump on this federal $ opportunity and ask for say, $500 m to build a regional starter system or at least a train to the airport.

Anybody know anything about this or understand the city's line of thinking?

[cwilson758]

With Ballard at the helm, even the City doesn't understand the City's line of thinking. Remember, they "misunderstood" the original request from the Feds.

[arenn]

I think it was Hamilton County governments who requested the transit funds.

As I suggested in my blog, the city needs to take a mulligan on its stimulus list.

[ablerock]

With Ballard at the helm, even the City doesn't understand the City's line of thinking. Remember, they "misunderstood" the original request from the Feds.

Yeah, I'm always trying to be more nice about it, but that's just a huge mistake.

Who knows who we can contact to complain?

[JivecitySTL]

Socrates, you are so weird. What is the point of basing anything off city population alone without any consideration of urbanized and/or metro population? If you go only by city population, then Jacksonville is larger than Boston and San Francisco, and El Paso is larger than Washington, DC and Seattle. In other words, CITY POPULATION MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about a place's true size and influence. There is really no point whatsoever in even mentioning it.

If you really want to get a sense of how "big" a city/metro feels, then judge it by Urbanized Area population, which measures only the continuously urbanized areas surrounding major cities:

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

I'm sorry, and I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but come on-- Indianapolis and St. Louis are in two different leagues when it comes to urban fabric and infrastructure. There is simply no comparison. Indy's built environment is like a genital wart compared to St. Louis. That's really just a fact.

[gregarious]

Socrates, you are so weird. What is the point of basing anything off city population alone without any consideration of urbanized and/or metro population? If you go only by city population, then Jacksonville is larger than Boston and San Francisco, and El Paso is larger than Washington, DC and Seattle. In other words, CITY POPULATION MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about a place's true size and influence. There is really no point whatsoever in even mentioning it.

If you really want to get a sense of how "big" a city/metro feels, then judge it by Urbanized Area population, which measures only the continuously urbanized areas surrounding major cities:

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

I'm sorry, and I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but come on-- Indianapolis and St. Louis are in two different leagues when it comes to urban fabric and infrastructure. There is simply no comparison. Indy's built environment is like a genital wart compared to St. Louis. That's really just a fact.

Those numbers seem a little off. Ithought the Indy MSA was about 1.6 million in 2000 and STl about 2.1, which I agree is a significant difference? The more alarming stat was that Indy grew by 16+% and STL was around 3%.

So in a decade or two, the "genital wart" may outgrow the body. Sorry

[JivecitySTL]

Those numbers seem a little off. Ithought the Indy MSA was about 1.6 million in 2000 and STl about 2.1, which I agree is a significant difference?

Wrong. In 2000, Indianapolis had 1.6 million, as compared to STL's 2.6 million-- a difference of 1 million people, or roughly the size of metropolitan Louisville. That actually is a big difference.

The more alarming stat was that Indy grew by 16+% and STL was around 3%.

So in a decade or two, the "genital wart" may outgrow the body. Sorry

You're right-- Indy is growing much faster than most metros in the Midwest, but that still won't make it more interesting. It's like comparing Houston to Boston.

[cwilson758]

Wow, I see the weiner fight is still going....

[socrates#1fan]

Oh Jesus christ.
I never said it meant ANYTHING.
If you read what I said you would kow that!
STL is bigger in METRO. All I said is Indy had more people within it's city limits.
That is a fact, and means little.
STL has a BIGGER metro. I said that to begin with.
Good lord, sensative much?
Where did this idea that I'm bashing STL come from?
Or that I said city populations are more important than metros?!
My god.
FYI
Obama-Biden. Yes we did! :cheer:

[hoosier]

I don't think the cultural divide between Indy and Saint Louis is comparable to the one between Houston and Boston.

Houston has way more room to expand than Boston whereas both Indy and Saint Louis have plenty of elbow room to grow, but only one metro actually is.

[JivecitySTL]

I don't think the cultural divide between Indy and Saint Louis is comparable to the one between Houston and Boston.

Houston has way more room to expand than Boston whereas both Indy and Saint Louis have plenty of elbow room to grow, but only one metro actually is.

True, the cultural divide between Indianapolis and St. Louis is not as disparate as that between Houston and Boston, but it should be noted that metro St. Louis is growing, albeit not as fast as Indianapolis.

[socrates#1fan]

True, the cultural divide between Indianapolis and St. Louis is not as disparate as that between Houston and Boston, but it should be noted that metro St. Louis is growing, albeit not as fast as Indianapolis.

Did someone compare us to Houston? I am insulted! :nuts:

[Indymac]

I just want to commend Jivecity on a great and thorough thread-jacking.

Anyway, is there anything that has happened with this since the beginning of the year?

[GarfieldPark]

The Indianapolis MPO selected HNTB consultants to prepare the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for the NE corridor rapid transit line. It is just now getting started. It will likely be around the end of 2010, early 2011 before the statement is completed - with all of its findings on the various environmental impacts of the various alternatives. If the federal transit administration agrees with the findings of the DEIS, it will become a Final EIS and whatever the findings are --- the regional transit authority will be able to move forward in applying to get federal "New Starts" funds to pay for whatever rapid transit solution is approved.

[EddieB317]

Indy Star Article 10/22/2009 on the transit referendum

http://www.indystar.com/article/20091022/LOCAL/910220432/-1/frontpagecities/Expert++Referendum+might+fund+mass+transit


Ball State Archives about Transit in Indiana.

http://ddarchive.blogspot.com/2009/07/connecting-corridor-indianapolis-to.html

[cailes]

After some digging, this is the most news I was able to dig up on the NE corridor rail "stuff". I dont know if this is NEW or not, but it doesnt say any environmental study is completed, and based upon some other reading, it appears that the city didnt take advantage of fast tracking it. Of course, I could be reading things wrong. There is a lot of information out there, and its easy to get confused.

Any news on this Cory?

http://www.indympo.org/Plans/Regional/Documents/2030_RTP_Fall_2009_Update.pdf

From pages 17/18
Rapid Transit Study
The MPO rapid transit study known as DiRecTionS examined options for high-quality transit service in the region and specifically the Northeast Corridor, including possible rail transit. Currently the process is at the point where alternatives analyses are being completed and the draft environmental impact statement (DEIS) is being conducted. Conclusions and recommendations from this study will be integrated into the Transportation Plan when the DEIS is completed

Central Indiana Regional Transportation Authority (CIRTA)
The Indianapolis MPO continues to work towards a multi modal regional transportation system. The MPO played a key role in the formation of the Central Indiana Regional Transportation Authority (CIRTA), which will plan for and coordinate transit services on a regional scale.
The mission of CIRTA is to develop a comprehensive regional transportation system serving all people in Central Indiana.

Presently CIRTA is working with the MPO to conduct a Draft Environmental Impact Statement in a corridor with a high potential as the region’s initial rapid transit facility. CIRTA is also conducting an aggressive public education campaign aimed at improving regional understanding of transit and its acceptance among citizens, business leaders, and elected officials. CIRTA is playing a key role in advancing CMAQ funded opportunities including the introduction of regional commuter services such as express bus and ride share initiatives.
Current guidance for the implementation of regional transit comes from two sources: the Regional Mass Transit Service Plan developed in conjunction with the Central Indiana Regional Transit Alliance, which has been adopted as a component of the Regional Transportation Plan; and DiRecTionS, a study of regional rapid and local transit. The Mass Transit Service Plan is more of a policy document than a plan, outlining strategic opportunities and challenges for future regional transit. The implementation of Regional Transportation Authority and the study of regional rapid transit were both recommendations of the Service Plan. DiRecTionS is simultaneously a feasibility study and a development of a proposal for regional transit, including local and express bus service at a minimum, and possibly regional fixed-guideway transit.

[cwilson758]

It is my understanding that we are just begininning the environmental stage.

However, there is chatter that a line will be up and running "in time for the SuperBowl."

[cailes]

That is interesting. I suppose if you have enough people pushing and all that.

[cailes]

On a not 100% related topic, if this all comes to pass, and the powers that be use Union Station... man this place is going to need an OVERHAUL at platform level.

Just an idea of what one would be exposed to coming off the train @ platform 9 or 10 inside union station... this doesnt really do it justice, but if you have never been up there, its very dark, very dirty, and lots of the what used to be stairs up from ground level have been filled in with concrete.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2770/4147192246_1108c9c092_b.jpg

[cailes]

Ive spent waaay too much time educating myself on this stuff lately but another interesting fact that I read today, is that the DEIS didnt even get started until pretty recently. I read through most of the last year and a half of the CIRTA meeting minutes, and appears they didnt get this thing ready to go until half way into this year and finally got the funding let out for it in September. So, 12-18 months from that...

I think I am going to start attending the monthly CIRTA meetings just to get my head wrapped around this, and other issues. Seems like a good way to get involved without just chatting about it on a message board.

[IndyYeah]

I will be honest, I have not been in this place since a Kansas show in 1996-1997. My ex wife and I held an after concert party, and it was nice. What has happened with this place since that time? Also, when did the trains stop coming and going? I know Borns put alot of time and money into this station in the 1980's. Would be nice see it be a top spot one day.

[GarfieldPark]

Almost all of the space in Union Station is filled now. The "Festival Marketplace" that was put in back in the late 1980s by Bob Born and others - lasted about six or seven years. It was still there in 1995 when Circle Centre opened - but - by that time, the novelty of Union Station had pretty much worn off - and all the crowds were going to Circle Centre.

When the Festival Marketplace closed (around 1996 or 97?), the remaining shops on the lower level and the remaining food places in the food court closed and/or went to other places. For a few years, the place was pretty empty - although the Crown Plaza Hotel has always remained in the Western half of the train shed and a few different bars and restaurants remained along the outer edges of the facility. The restaurants in the original, 1888 main station house also left. That space has become a space that today is used for conferences and dinners / special events - and is primarily used in conjunction with events going on at the Crown Plaza or the adjacent Omni Severin hotel.

Some of the biggest users of the space today include a special school called the Pacers Academy, the Indianapolis office of the Mexican Consulate, and the Planning and Engineering offices of RW Armstrong, Corporation. There is one new thing that is about to open. It is a huge bar that will take up the entire space along the eastern end of the train shed building, along S. Meridian Street. It will be called Cadillac Ranch. It is supposed to take up about 30,000 square feet of space and will be a "Western" themed bar. I guess the "Urban Cowboy" theme is due to come around again already -- I guess the last time that trend came through, it was the mid-80's - so I guess after 25 years, its time for it again.

Oh yeah, there are also still the Amtrak and Greyhound bus stations that are in the facility. They are on the southern side of the train shed, between S. Illinois St. and S. Capitol Avenues. There are many Greyhound buses (many dozens) that come through every day and also a daily Amtrak train that goes each way through the station, going either to Chicago or Washington D.C.

[hoosier]

Of course Union Station will need to be renovated to handle commuter traffic.

There is plenty of space around Union Station to build a commuter rail station.

[ragerunner1]

Nice article about Indy's Transit hopes.
http://www.hntb.com/sites/default/files/issues/InTransit_1009.pdf

[cailes]

I read that too. The ideas are well laid out within. It was interesting reading about Denver's experience with their transit operations as well.

[EddieB317]

So here's an idea. I know that everyone has their hearts set on making union station a transit hub once again... But since that would cost quite a bit, there should be a partnership with the Simons to put in a great state of the art hub at circle centre. Simon could subsidize a great station, and in return they might get more mall business. The Simons are also seem to want to be philanthropists in Indianapolis. I am definitely anti mall, but this could be a way to get a great transit hub for cheap. I think that the trade off might be worth it to get one of the major pieces of transit infrastructure in place. I know that many people here will hate this idea, as I would not pick it in a perfect world... Thoughts?

Edit: how bout we keep the unioun station hub... And instead of making circle centre a Simon subsidized station we do castelton, the fashion mall, or clay terrace, ect. The malls have tons of parking and could be great park and ride terminals for commuters. Thoughts?

[ak72]

So here's an idea. I know that everyone has their hearts set on making union station a transit hub once again... But since that would cost quite a bit, there should be a partnership with the Simons to put in a great state of the art hub at circle centre. Simon could subsidize a great station, and in return they might get more mall business. The Simons are also seem to want to be philanthropists in Indianapolis. I am definitely anti mall, but this could be a way to get a great transit hub for cheap. I think that the trade off might be worth it to get one of the major pieces of transit infrastructure in place. I know that many people here will hate this idea, as I would not pick it in a perfect world... Thoughts?

Edit: how bout we keep the unioun station hub... And instead of making circle centre a Simon subsidized station we do castelton, the fashion mall, or clay terrace, ect. The malls have tons of parking and could be great park and ride terminals for commuters. Thoughts?

I think the main reason the current path is chosen is because the infrastructure is already there. The cost would mainly be making it commuter rail ready, and not building new rail. It's an interesting idea, but definitely not at Circle Center (where would the tracks go), and other regional malls might not be a bad idea for future spokes if we are building from scratch anyway.

There was a really good article, which I don't remember where I read it, but the Denver line had a stop at an abandoned mall which was turned into a TOD.

[Mr Peanut]

So here's an idea. I know that everyone has their hearts set on making union station a transit hub once again... But since that would cost quite a bit, there should be a partnership with the Simons to put in a great state of the art hub at circle centre. Simon could subsidize a great station, and in return they might get more mall business. The Simons are also seem to want to be philanthropists in Indianapolis. I am definitely anti mall, but this could be a way to get a great transit hub for cheap. I think that the trade off might be worth it to get one of the major pieces of transit infrastructure in place. I know that many people here will hate this idea, as I would not pick it in a perfect world... Thoughts?

Edit: how bout we keep the unioun station hub... And instead of making circle centre a Simon subsidized station we do castelton, the fashion mall, or clay terrace, ect. The malls have tons of parking and could be great park and ride terminals for commuters. Thoughts?

How would trains get to Circle Centre? There's no remotely feasible way to do that. Same with Castleton. The mall is near the railroad, but not adjacent to it. The park and ride idea is certainly doable in that area, but the mall wouldn't be the location for it.

The idea that Simon would subsidize this to the tune of millions of dollars is pretty outlandish, to be blunt. I have never gotten any impression of their desire to be philanthropists. The company has taken a lot of money from the public in the form of Conseco Fieldhouse and the subsidized new headquarters, while I can't immediately think of anything charitable they've done. In fact, Circle Centre itself was publicly subsidized. And there's no way they would get a significant return on their investment through increased traffic. Everyone who wants to go to their malls already does, by driving there.

[CorrND]

How would trains get to Circle Centre? There's no remotely feasible way to do that. Same with Castleton. The mall is near the railroad, but not adjacent to it. The park and ride idea is certainly doable in that area, but the mall wouldn't be the location for it.

The idea that Simon would subsidize this to the tune of millions of dollars is pretty outlandish, to be blunt. I have never gotten any impression of their desire to be philanthropists. The company has taken a lot of money from the public in the form of Conseco Fieldhouse and the subsidized new headquarters, while I can't immediately think of anything charitable they've done. In fact, Circle Centre itself was publicly subsidized. And there's no way they would get a significant return on their investment through increased traffic. Everyone who wants to go to their malls already does, by driving there.
$50M: IU Simon Cancer Center (http://www.cancer.iu.edu/)
$40M: Riley Hospital Simon Family Tower (http://rileychildrenshospital.com/information-desk/simon-family-tower/index.jsp)

[GarfieldPark]

A little more news from the Indy Star relating to future transit plans and what the Mayor wants to see -- and a few ideas about possible funding strategies. From 12/28/09:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20091228/LOCAL/912280351/-1/ARCHIVE/Ballard-ready-to-talk-money-for-transit

[cailes]

Well, I have spent considerable effort educating myself on things related to this line. Its been frought with lots of "I dont knows" and much digging into CIRTA meeting minutes and such. What started out as a small blip of a post on my blog, is turning into a 4 part monster series exploring everything I can imagine that it will take to construct this thing. I posted the first part today, dealing with Union Station soley. If anyone is curious, here is a link: http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/?p=234

I thought I would come back here and post some of the photos that I have from that post. There will be tons more as I have walked nearly the entirety of the line from 146th to Union Station, the bridges (or lack thereof) and anything else that needs special attention.

Here are a few photos. If nothing else, the provide a different perspective than most see:
http://hustonstreetracing.com/gallery2/images/ustation_12409.jpg

http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gallery3/commuter_rail/com_rail_4.jpg

http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gallery3/commuter_rail/com_rail_1.jpg

Over Illinois. Notice the track is currently broken here
http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gallery3/commuter_rail/com_rail_3.jpg

Enjoy. All comments welcome. I dont know everything, and more than willing to add good information to my series.

[EddieB317]

^^ Nice!

[k2h]

Great post, Cailes. I love to envision the re-design and re-use of Union Station. There is a lot of potential there. Regarding the underpasses, i assume the Capitol Avenue underpass will get a nice makeover as part of the convention center project. For all of the underpasses, what a difference a few lighting enhancements would make, right?

[GarfieldPark]

I'm pretty sure that last picture, above -- is of the Capitol Avenue overpass (instead of the Illinois St. overpass). Its hard to figure out what is going on with the construction of that walkway between LOS and the CC. Hopefully the new walkway along Capitol Avenue will look much better than it currently does (which isn't saying much).

[cailes]

I stand corrected. It is capital. I got mixed up.

I did some digging, and there was an architectural print showing that there is a walkway being constructed under the tracks from the convention center to lucas oil.

[EddieB317]

I stand corrected. It is capital. I got mixed up.

I did some digging, and there was an architectural print showing that there is a walkway being constructed under the tracks from the convention center to lucas oil.

If I am not mistaken it will connect to the vertical transportation building thats being built on the north west corner of South and Capital in order to connect to the tunnel under south street that connects Lucas Oil Stadium.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/SzPVhnp2-cI/AAAAAAAAERQ/13yYPUjg8HE/s720/photo%203.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/SzPVhqwNHGI/AAAAAAAAERI/-oyrv_6hCok/s576/photo.jpg

[unvrsty07]

^^^^ What is the vertical transportation building? I saw this the other day and was curious as to what was taking place.

[GarfieldPark]

I don't know who first started calling it the VTB -- probably something that was written in some construction document. Basically, it is the building that is at the point where the ground level walkway from the Convention Center meets the stairs and escalators that go down to the underground tunnel under South Street that connects to the exhibit halls at the north end of Lucas Oil Stadium - which open up onto the playing surface level. With this connector tunnel and escalator system -- the 565,000 sq. feet of exhibit space at the Convention Center are linked to the 180,000 sq. feet of exhibit space at LOS with an approximately block long, completely indoor, climate controlled walkway.

[unvrsty07]

Is this going to be built on that whole block, or just where it is needed for the tunnel? It may be a nice catalyst for growth as thousands will be stepping out of that tunnel annually.

[cailes]

I think there are going to be parking lots on the south side of the tracks.

I have my second post, examining the route, online now:
http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/?p=239

A couple photos:
http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gallery3/commuter_rail/fall_creek_bridge.jpg

http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gallery3/commuter_rail/10th_st_overlook.jpg

http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gallery3/commuter_rail/10th_street_blockhouse.jpg

http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gallery3/commuter_rail/25th_monon.jpg

[EddieB317]

^^^^^^ Once again! Great stuff and much appreciated! Exciting stuff, even without knowing the actual concrete plan details. Your effort is really helping to solidify in my mind, along with the people I am directing to HSR, that trains ARE coming to Indy!! I love it!

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

I still think it is a huge mistake to spend all of this time and effort on a system that takes people from the suburbs to downtown without a circulating rail system downtown first. It would be nice to have a downtown inhabited by a carless people, or atleast people with cars parked blocks away that dont need to use them the majority of the time. Maybe I am the only person who feels this way but I believe there are far more important legs of a future indy rail system. In order of importance IMO:

1. Downtown circulator
2. Airport to downtown (Could have stops on W. Washington)
3. East Washington
4. N. Meridian
5. Suburban Commuter Rails

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

Its just going to suck when oil climbs higher than before....up to $6-7/gallon .... especially when Oil switches to the Euro as its reserve currency, and the core of Indianapolis sees a huge influx of citizens yet no way to get around the core....imagine the traffic and the mess. And we will have rail to the suburbs by the time people can no longer afford to live there..... Sorry....was watching Earth 2100 on the discovery channel.

[cailes]

You can't build it all overnight. Your opinion is valid in that downtown needs some kind of circulator, but if they get this NE system going, its a good way to get started. Not a fully built out billion dollar plan. Compared to other systems, the cost for this should be pretty low. It will be a good way to build support for further funding other lines around the area.

[cailes]

Ive gotten long winded about stations on my write up now. ;)

146th street: http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/?p=250
116th street: http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/?p=268
71st street: http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/?p=276

http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/fishers_1.jpg

http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/fishers_2.jpg

http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/71st_1.jpg

[cwilson758]

Cailes...I think you rock

[cailes]

Thanks!

Something else I also discovered in my research...

Downtown Indianapolis Streetcar is not dead :)

[Sunday_Bloody_Sundae]

Downtown Indianapolis Streetcar is not dead :)

Not the elevated rail or monorail I hoped to see throughout downtown, but this will work if it actually happens. A downtown streetcar would need to run even at night. I would hate to see rail built that is halted at 9pm. It would be nice if the city werent carcentric like the suburbs- that would give a lot of young people a reason move to the core - myself included. However, with cars being basically the only option in both places, there really isnt much difference in the suburbs and the core except the blight. Hate to be debbie downer all the time.

[EddieB317]

there really isnt much difference in the suburbs and the core except the blight.

Yeah, I know... all of the blight of endless strip malls, surface lots, McMansions and walmarts in the suburbs is pretty horrible. I can understand why some people wouldn't want to live way out there.

[ak72]

Yeah, I know... all of the blight of endless strip malls, surface lots, McMansions and walmarts in the suburbs is pretty horrible. I can understand why some people wouldn't want to live way out there.

Honestly most people don't have "refined urban architectural taste." And don't see anything wrong with strip malls, surface lots, McMansions, and Wal-Marts. As long as they are new people think they look fine. They don't see it as blight. They don't care about urbanity. They want new and safe. And that's what the suburbs offer.

[EddieB317]

Honestly most people don't have "refined urban architectural taste." And don't see anything wrong with strip malls, surface lots, McMansions, and Wal-Marts. As long as they are new people think they look fine. They don't see it as blight. They don't care about urbanity. They want new and safe. And that's what the suburbs offer.

I completely understand... Sarcasm is hard to convey in a post. I just wish that the masses were more sophisticated instead of just afraid of everything thats not new and homogeneous.

[cailes]

Finished my series. The last post was made this morning.

http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/?p=302

Check it out. Thanks for reading

[EddieB317]

^^^^^^ Thanks!

[cailes]

Well, the new year brings some new things brewing. Wont say what yet, but there will be news in a couple weeks to report :) :)

[SkywlkrSnd]

Well, the new year brings some new things brewing. Wont say what yet, but there will be news in a couple weeks to report :) :)

Ah, I hate teases! :)

Seriously though, real nice job on your blog series, cailes. I had enjoyed your posts here, but I hadn't gone over to read your blog until this past weekend. Great series on the commuter rail. For those of us who maybe don't get as excited about reading environmental studies, thanks for taking it to a more tangible level. Keep it coming!

[cailes]

Since it will probably hit the airwaves soon anyway, the Central Indiana Transit Task Force aka Mayor Ballard's Transit Task Force aka a bunch of other names it has been called.... is going to roll out the findings from their last year of "studying". Hopefully its not a list of bullet points but an actual plan... who knows. We will see though.

This was suppose to last a shorter amount of time. I know they were in front of a bunch of state senators back in the fall and said they were rolling it out in January. Hopefully, this is what Ballard has been spinning as his "exciting transit vision for the future" and not just another ho-hum study.

[GarfieldPark]

A press release went out a few days ago announcing that there would be a media briefing at 10:00 am on Wednesday, February 10th (tomorrow) about the regional transportation strategies. We should be hearing more about the multi-modal transportation ideas for the region real soon.

[cailes]

Hahha I was waiting to not post about this.

I got a media invite for it. Will be there.

[GarfieldPark]

Great -- it'll be good to be able to have a first person account of what is presented.

[cailes]

Speaking of rail oriented topics, I saw on WISH TV 8 news last night, a story out of Houston, Texas. A bus hit one of the on street light rail trains knocking it off the track. They had to take 9 people to the hospital for injuries.

They didnt talk much about it, but I thought, "Wow, what great timing to put something like that on the news with this press conference upcoming...." way to give detractors something on the local level to talk about. I suppose its valid, but talk about punch in the gut timing.

EDIT: http://www.click2houston.com/news/22502070/detail.html

[cailes]

Well, I guess being an employee of IBJ has its perks.

They beat the rest of us to it.
http://www.ibj.com/task-force-endorses-regional-taxes-for-mass-transit/PARAMS/article/16305

Nice plan though. :)

[UrbanIndy]

Sounds promising...I'm on board, as you could guess.

BTW, I just watched this (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/blueprintamerica/reports/beyond-the-motor-city/overview/940/) excellent program on PBS. There was a section that was particularly poignant where they were interviewing a Spanish man who helped his country's transportation system to modernize. He mentioned taxes, and that in no time in history has a major infrastructure advancement come without a tax increase. However, they gained confidence from their citizens to approve of the advancements after they had seen some serious plans and results. I hope that a similar story can be said for transportation planning here in Indy

[cailes]

I'm on board. I'm already broke so what's a few more bukcs? Lol
seriously when I read thru it I thought that it sounded like Denver and how rapidly and ambitious a plan they set out. I hope people don't balk on this. There will be detractors with good points but I hope that some form of this comes to fruition

[kangaroo1]

I'm on board. I'm already broke so what's a few more bukcs? Lol
seriously when I read thru it I thought that it sounded like Denver and how rapidly and ambitious a plan they set out. I hope people don't balk on this. There will be detractors with good points but I hope that some form of this comes to fruition

I am glad to see the proposals issued and I would like to see the project move forward. Unfortunately, judging from the string of stupid and negative comments posted on the Star's website when they ran the story about the recommendations, I am not hopeful that this proposal will go anywhere, especially since it would require voter approval of a tax increase.

[cailes]

There was a similar outcry when the Wishard bond issue was put on the ballot, and you saw how well that went over.

Dont be discouraged by idiots on the media reply boards. The IBJ article has a lot of positives, and the star is always going to have detractors.

My neighbor this morning said that he probably wouldnt use it, but that it was a great idea to get tons of people off the roads. That tells me that at least there are some smart people who wouldnt use it, that realize the benefits.

[CorrND]

One of the keys to selling any kind of mass transit plan is to make people realize how much of their money is spent on roads every year. A sizable portion of the population have the sense that roads are free because the only cost they directly feel for using them is the cost of gas. You can see this mentality pop up again and again in message board comments. They can't understand why we should spend gargantuan amounts of money on trains when they can just get in their car and drive for "free".

Does anybody know if the proposal is available anywhere online?

[ablerock]

Indystar poll on mass transit plan:

http://www2.indystar.com/marmot/view/poll/52/new

[cailes]

There is a website live today called indyconnect. I amout and about but have a full media kit with video and all kinds if fun stuff.
I was approached a couple times by people and i'm now known as "the blogger" lol
more info later

[SkywlkrSnd]

Indystar poll on mass transit plan:

http://www2.indystar.com/marmot/view/poll/52/new

Holy crap! A thousand votes (as of just now) and it's locked at 50/50. I'm surprised...I was preparing to see an overwhelming "NO!" from Indystar visitors. Maybe people will be warmer to this idea than I thought.

[GarfieldPark]

Here is a direct "click on" link to the site. http://www.indyconnect.org/

I accidentally typed in indyconnect.com and got sent to a singles dating site. Oh well.

[ragerunner1]

Looks like a great step in the right direction. Hopefully it will be able to secure the support it needs to get off the ground. I think having the business community already deeply involved and supporting this effort will really help its chances. So many times its just government and some local transit supports and the general private sector is either not on board or just stay quietly on the sidelines.

[CorrND]

Holy crap! A thousand votes (as of just now) and it's locked at 50/50. I'm surprised...I was preparing to see an overwhelming "NO!" from Indystar visitors. Maybe people will be warmer to this idea than I thought.
Wow, the poll has actually skewed 55-45 in favor of the tax now. I'm also shocked.

And yeah, they did a very nice job with the promotional video.

[UrbanIndy]

You can vote more than once...I voted twice just to see how the voting has changed. Perhaps the supporters are just quieter in the comments than the detractors, which makes sense.

[kangaroo1]

There was a similar outcry when the Wishard bond issue was put on the ballot, and you saw how well that went over.

Dont be discouraged by idiots on the media reply boards. The IBJ article has a lot of positives, and the star is always going to have detractors.

My neighbor this morning said that he probably wouldnt use it, but that it was a great idea to get tons of people off the roads. That tells me that at least there are some smart people who wouldnt use it, that realize the benefits.

There is quite a bit of difference between the Wishard bond measure and this sales tax proposal: (1) The Wishard vote only involved Marion County, not the suburban counties, which have a much higher resistance among their voters to tax increases and a strong resentment toward Marion County and anything viewed as "benefiting Marion Country." Not to mention there is a huge amount of discontent over the Lucas Stadium sales tax (which didn't have to go to a public vote at the time) among voters in the suburban counties, (2) the Wishard bond measure was for a very well-respected local institution and literally for a life-saving service, whereas there is no local well-respected mass transit organization, and mass-transit while an important service is not needed to save anyone's life, and (3) Wishard's bond campaign, whether it holds true or not, was built on a promise that NO taxes would actually increase (the argument is that the bonds just have to be backed by the possibility of property taxes so they can be sold at a better rate on the bond market); however, the sales tax increase is a true tax increase and one people would pay on almost a daily basis.

So, while I hope the measure would pass, my feeling is that there is a strong possibility any such measure would be voted down, especially if the vote is going to be held next year. I guess we shall see...

[ak72]

One of the keys to selling any kind of mass transit plan is to make people realize how much of their money is spent on roads every year. A sizable portion of the population have the sense that roads are free because the only cost they directly feel for using them is the cost of gas. You can see this mentality pop up again and again in message board comments. They can't understand why we should spend gargantuan amounts of money on trains when they can just get in their car and drive for "free".

Does anybody know if the proposal is available anywhere online?

Exactly right! How many other services does the government provide that you don't use? But these things make the city as a whole better off. And these people who will never use mass transit, will gain, in some way or another, from its benefits.

[cailes]

56 - 44 in favor of on the Indystar poll so far.

If its doing good on there, I think the odds will sway further towards yes.

Positive to see :)

[cailes]

There wasn't an official question/answer period after the presentation but we were able to mingle with officials after the fact. I got to speak with Ehren Bingamen for a few minutes and one of my biggest questoins was how this study took into account things like the Downtown Indianapolis Streetcar Corp plan, which is also a privately funded initiative exploring a downtown circulator streetcar. Ive gotten to talk back and forth with Steve Devoe of their board and he says that they support the CITTF plan, but were not a specific component of it.

Similarly, Bingamen said that he thought they had been considered as well but due to the lack of a plan by them, that they better figure it out soon, or the window of opportunity will be gone.

Beyond that, the rest of the questions I had were minor, and I figure there will be plenty of time for asking them at the various meetings being held.

It was a neat experience. My wife took photos for ME for a change at the event. Im usually her assistant since she is the professional. We got to talk to the Mayor for a bit. He was encouraged by young people like my wife and I being there because there is a lot of work to do in the younger generation to keep the steam going in this thing.

[UrbanIndy]

56 - 44 in favor of on the Indystar poll so far.

If its doing good on there, I think the odds will sway further towards yes.

Positive to see :)

I hope the question on the actual ballot is worded by whomever has put together referendums in the past. It's always fun to read them and say "duh!," then vote yes...

[mobyhead]

Ive gotten to talk back and forth with Steve Devoe of their board and he says that they support the CITTF plan, but were not a specific component of it.

I know Steve. I do know that he and his family played a part in getting the ABA Indiana Pacers to town in 1967. He knows how to get stuff done.

[CorrND]

How does the Streetcar Corp not have a plan yet? They formed almost 2 years ago, so you would think they could have at least a rough outline for inclusion in the Indy Connect plans.

My thought? Two circulators:

North/South & Business Oriented -- Lilly, CBD, State House, Methodist:

South on Capitol
East on Merrill (utilize the closed section under the RR tracks)
North on Delaware
West on 16th

East/West and Student/Entertainment Oriented -- Indiana Ave, Mass Ave, IUPUI

South on University
East on New York
North on New Jersey
West on Michigan

Or thinking outside the box on the East/West circulator:

SE Indiana Ave.
East on Vermont
NW on Mass Ave.
West on St. Clair

[cailes]

There are all kinds of ways they could do it. Apparently they hired the guy who designed the Portland streetcar to do the analysis and it will be the cost analysis type of output that this recent study put out I think.

They will have something shortly according to Steve. Who knows what the circumstances are behind why its taken so long, but at least they are looking at it.

[cailes]

I started doing my part this weekend. I talked to three people in the arts community this weekend who had heard nothing about this yet. So I spread the word.

Also, anyone see that they bought some ad space on the big electronic billboard next to the fairgrounds on Fall Creek Parkway?

[JohnM Indy]

Also, anyone see that they bought some ad space on the big electronic billboard next to the fairgrounds on Fall Creek Parkway?

I also saw a billboard yesterday on I-74 west (inbound) near Shelbyville.

[cailes]

So has anyone from the board been going out to these meetings? I know a couple people in the blogosphere have been out (myself included). There are more slides and information to look at in the meetings compared to what is on the website.

I havent filled out the paperwork that they handed out yet. I have a fat folder of papers yet to fill out. The thing that really strikes me about this, is deciding how they are going to build the commuter lines. If you look at other "commuter" rail lines, ridership is always low. Probably because of peak hour operation and the sort of deal. They talk about short cycling the commuter lines closer to downtown during the day in a light rail type of deal so it makes me wonder, why even consider making it heavier rail type? The NE corridor approved the DMU types of engines, but now that the inniative has been struck and a funding option at least being talked about, why not consider double tracking it, making it electric and at the least, double tracking a good portion of it, and then single tracking once you get closer to the burbs and offer a 30 minute headway type of service during peak hours while maintaing the double track operation 10-15 minute headways inside the loop.

Just some thoughts. No one has been posting about it, so Im curious how people have been thinking about this topic on this board.

[GarfieldPark]

I think what you are describing is one of the things being considered. The technology question -- ie DMU or electric -- would be a good question to discuss at some of the meetings. I wonder what type of train technology would work best for a "dual use" type of corridor. (One that might have more frequent service - with more stops that are closer together in the central part of the region -- with primarily a.m. and p.m. peak hour trips at less frequent intervals to serve the "commuter" riders in the outer parts of the region.)

I believe there are DMU trains that can work well to provide both of these types of services on the same corridor. If the passenger vehicles can stay on separate rail lines from freight trains - they may not have to build "heavier" vehicles, which are required for "crash-worthiness" on the dual use types of corridors. On the NE corridor - there are no freight trains - so that might be possible - although there is still an issue dealing with the final routing of passenger trains into Union Station. Those tracks do have lots of freight traffic. With DMU technology, overhead electric wires wouldn't be needed - so there could be cost savings associated with that. There is a lot to figure out. The federally required environmental impact studies are being worked on now -- so hopefully, many of those types of questions will begin to be answered.

[cailes]

The NE DEIS is all they have going on right now. Going to be a little bit til its done I think but it will be interesting to dig through and see what it says once its all done.

Another thing on the mind of the planners is the old rail bypass that runs around the southern side of downtown. I was at the CIRTA meeting back in January and they seem to be generating some kind of activity around getting that thing repaired and up to standards so that they can ask CSX to use that to get through indy thereby opening up Union Station for passenger type traffic alone. That would be huge but the kicker is that they estimate $150 million to get that beltway back in good condition to handle the kind of traffic that rolls through downtown freight wise right now.

EDIT: I got to talk to a couple people at one of the Indyconnect meetings. I think it was Phillip Roth of the MPO manning the rail table and I asked if they were going to reconsider using electric instead of DMU in light of this inniative actually opening up broader funding avenues and he said that is an option. Lori Miser was the one who highlighted the issues around the CSX beltway. So its on their radar but they havent even arrived at a decision regarding these items yet.

[cailes]

A minor update on the NE Corridor topic

NE Corridor AA/DEIS Project

Learn about the Northeast Corridor Alternatives Analysis/Draft Environmental Impact Statement (AA/DEIS) project, an initiative of Indy Connect. After a brief presentation highlighting the background of the project, the conceptual alternatives under consideration, and the environmental process, participants will have the opportunity to meet one-on-one with members of the project team to gain additional information and engage in detailed discussions about the NE Corridor AA/DEIS.

Project kick-off meetings for the NE Corridor AA/DEIS will be held on the following dates, with additional meetings to follow.



Wednesday, March 17th at 7:00 PM

Julia Carson Government Center

300 E Fall Creek Parkway

Indianapolis, Indiana



Wednesday, March 24th at 7:00 PM

Hamilton County Government Center

One Hamilton Square

Noblesville, Indiana

[cailes]

I feel like Im beating a one man drum here, but has anyone checked out the Indyconnect map? They updated it to give a general idea of how far the daily north/south light rail runs would run up to. 38th street on the north side, and just inside 465 on the south side. The initial media stuff didnt highlight that...

http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/indyconnect_update_3_12_2010.jpg

[GarfieldPark]

That is interesting news. To have frequent, throughout the day (and into the night) hours - serving that larger area of the Central City is good. Thanks for keeping us up-dated.

[CorrND]

Good eye and cool news! That southern terminus is probably University of Indianapolis. Frequent service there would be a great idea.

[ablerock]

It's weird/sucks that the light rail line doesn't quite hit the airport. It also sucks that it's not slated for implementation until 2025. I think this entire plan could have a much more aggressive timeline, especially as it's fairly conservative.

[cailes]

Did anyone make it to the meeting last night? I was taking care of my sick and 38 week pregnant wife so could not make it to the meeting.

Was expecting something in the newspaper this morning, but saw nothing. Nor on the IBJ.

[GarfieldPark]

Ablerock: "It's weird/sucks that the light rail line doesn't quite hit the airport. It also sucks that it's not slated for implementation until 2025. I think this entire plan could have a much more aggressive timeline, especially as it's fairly conservative."

Ablerock --- where did you get the idea that the light rail line to the airport is not scheduled until 2025? I've never seen anything that showed any dates associated with any of the potential improvements. Maybe I just didn't look far enough.

[cailes]

The time line is roughly like this:
Expanded bus service near term.
NE Corridor operating in 5 years.
South Corridor operating in 10 years.
East/West LR operating in 15 years.

[ablerock]

Ablerock --- where did you get the idea that the light rail line to the airport is not scheduled until 2025? I've never seen anything that showed any dates associated with any of the potential improvements. Maybe I just didn't look far enough.

"The report proposes phasing-in bus service enhancements over the next five years. The northeast rail line would begin in five years, a southern passenger rail service in 10 years and Washington Street light rail in 15 years."

http://www.ibj.com/task-force-endorses-regional-taxes-for-mass-transit/PARAMS/article/16305

Now do you believe me? ;-)

[GarfieldPark]

Thanks! ^^ I guess I should have spent a little more time looking over the study. :) Its weird --- saying the airport connection wouldn't happen until 2025 sounds very far away -- yet fifteen years doesn't sound quite so bad. I guess I'm still not used to the fact that its 2010 already. I think the real key is just getting something good started in the next year or two or three --- then to move forward in a steady, well strategized way. At that rate, 2020 will be here pretty soon.

Changes at the federal level with the way transportation funds are distributed could have an impact on the schedule as well. If more of a focus is given to improving transit and just maintaining existing roadways (not expanding) -- we could see a good jump in the amount of available funds for transit - and Indy's improvements might happen a little more quickly.