I have to explain again :doh:

Number of commuters in Mumbai suburban is 6-7 million. Same number of people travel in long distance trains of IR. Ticket price of a long distance trains are in hundreds or thousands, depending on the distance travelled, while in suburban, fares barely cross 100 mark, and that too in first class. Most of the people travel in II class, the fare of which is definitely pennies in front of long distance tickets.

All I was trying to explain was that Mumbai suburban does not contribute heavily to IR in terms of revenues, even though it contributes passengers, because commuters in Mumbai suburban travel few dozen kms, while log distance travelers cover hundreds and thousands of kms.

PS - Minimum fare in Delhi metro is Rs 8.

Thanks for the explaination. I agree that if you compare Mumbai suburban railway to the rest of India, the revenue share wouldnt be the biggest from Mumbai, but i am sure that it is a sizeable chunk and this if from decades, year after year. It must be definetely contributing enough to ensure that the trains and the infrastructure were upgraded many years back. Let me quote barrykul's post here as i think the same,

. IR runs rickety trains that have not been updated since the stone age, but I am sure a lot of money is being spent in "maintenance" on these relics. That is area ripe for money leak. Somewhere in the supply chain for parts someone is getting paid of big time. No wonder, every year they report a loss on public transport.e

This is tiring and boring. The Indian people deserve better service. An investment of say $10-20B is needed for upgrades in a) stations b) trains and coaches c) signals d) public interface tickets, complaints etc. Delhi Metro is run quite profitably with decent rates for travel. IR can do the same.



I hope you are not trying to justify that railways are doing a good job or that Mumbai does not deserve somthing better. The babus in IR have done nothing in all these years to ensure that facilities are upgraded. As i said before the basic things like safety are missing and looks like it going to remain like that for more time.

Lot of people do travel on the 1st class, you can take my word for it. The first pic in my previous post is of people boarding a first class.

P.S: My bad, i knew it was 4rs when the metro has started, didnt knw that i has been increased.

I so hate myself that I was paying 3 times the price of a second class when I have never got a chance to sit on those "comfortable" seats during rush hour.

lol you actually paid first class? :lol:. I tried first class at the start but then did not see the point is paying so much as I stood in first class in cramped conditions and second class in cramped conditions.

I am so lucky i dont have to travel by rail anymore for my job.



The long term solution to all of this is to spread out the office space. Thats slowly happening. I think 80% of Navi mumbai works in navi mumbai and some 60% of Thane works in Thane. The number for Kalyan Dombivali is something like 40%. All these regions are slowly getting the jobs needed

so with some luck people can potentially walk to work.

privatisation or segregation from IR or at least separate Mumbai zone of IR can solve some problems. Didnt mamta bannerjee talk of segregation in this budget??

Gone are the days when first class was better. And yes, Rs. 8 or 12 or even 20 on delhi metro is a steal if you compare Rs. 100 (Vashi-VT) or more in the first class of the horrible harbour line or whichever line. I remember being hit by a stone near Tilak Nagar by kids!! So much for a normal Mumbaikar for keeping quiet.

lol you actually paid first class? :lol:. I tried first class at the start but then did not see the point is paying so much as I stood in first class in cramped conditions and second class in cramped conditions.


Those were the Mithibai days. Very rarely were we able to find seats and that was only when we took off early from the college. But every morning and evening coming back, it was like fighting with your live and save your personal goods like cellphones.

I am not falling for it now because it doesn't make any difference anymore. :)

Here is a video of western line which i found on youtube, for people who have not seen the crush. It still seems to be lesser crowded from what it would be at peak hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKNM2rfB6bM&feature=related

Those were the Mithibai days. Very rarely were we able to find seats and that was only when we took off early from the college. But every morning and evening coming back, it was like fighting with your live and save your personal goods like cellphones.

I am not falling for it now because it doesn't make any difference anymore. :)


yeah i know. My mom told me that in the 70s the trains were just perfect. There was no cramped conditions even during rush hour. Most people used to get a seat etc as well. even the elderly and handicapped could travel. Back then frequency was an issue with one train every 10min during rush hour and 20 min outside rush hour. But it was clean and comfortable. No slums across tracks etc.

Then in the 80s it went pear shaped.

Its come to such a point that even if IR gets its act together there are just too many people to ever have a comfortable travel.

even if you build 10 metro lines it will still be an issue...

and its not just the railways. I can reach the centre of Pune quicker from Mulund than i can reach Colaba in the rush hour. My mom told in again in the 70s you could reach Mulund to colaba in 40min in rush hour. Now its nearly 3 hours.

It must be definetely contributing enough to ensure that the trains and the infrastructure were upgraded many years back. Let me quote barrykul's post here as i think the same,

Obviously it contributes a lot to the revenues but it consumes even more in the form of costs. It is still running because it receives funds from the centre. If it becomes dependent on its own revenues, it will become even worse. Moral of the story is that it does not earns enough revenues to satisfy its needs of modernization.

But that does not means it should not be modernized. But giving wrong excuses that it should be modernized because it generates profits for IR is just lame.

I hope you are not trying to justify that railways are doing a good job or that Mumbai does not deserve somthing better.

Of course not. It deserves much more that this, even if it means more burden on centre. But the excuse should not be that it generates profits. Instead the excuse should be that 6 million people travel in sub-human conditions daily, which is not justifiable by any means.

Here is a video of western line which i found on youtube, for people who have not seen the crush. It still seems to be lesser crowded from what it would be at peak hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKNM2rfB6bM&feature=related
yea the rush in trains has reduced somewhat it isnt as cramped as you seen in the pics posted but the quality of service is still crap.

Obviously it contributes a lot to the revenues but it consumes even more in the form of costs. It is still running because it receives funds from the centre. If it becomes dependent on its own revenues, it will become even worse. Moral of the story is that it does not earns enough revenues to satisfy its needs of modernization.

But that does not means it should not be modernized. But giving wrong excuses that it should be modernized because it generates profits for IR is just lame.



You have obviously not understood the point i am trying to make even after i quoted barrykuls post...that " IR runs rickety trains that have not been updated since the stone age, but I am sure a lot of money is being spent in "maintenance" on these relics. That is area ripe for money leak. Somewhere in the supply chain for parts someone is getting paid of big time. No wonder, every year they report a loss on public transport.

This is tiring and boring. The Indian people deserve better service. An investment of say $10-20B is needed for upgrades in a) stations b) trains and coaches c) signals d) public interface tickets, complaints etc. Delhi Metro is run quite profitably with decent rates for travel. IR can do the same"

Moral of the story is that... if the IR does not earns enough revenues to satisfy its needs of modernization, then there is something seriously wrong with the way they are running the show. With so many people using these services all these years on a daily basis they could have surely done better.

And where did the " local trains generating a profit for IR " come from? I never indicated that.

But the excuse should not be that it generates profits. Instead the excuse should be that 6 million people travel in sub-human conditions daily, which is not justifiable by any means.

What is an excuse?? :wallbash: Isnt it IR or GOVT's duty to see to it that basic things are covered ?

Moral of the story is that... if the IR does not earns enough revenues to satisfy its needs of modernization, then there is something seriously wrong with the way they are running the show. With so many people using these services all these years on a daily basis they could have surely done better.

Of course I agree to that. That apply to every organization, not just IR.

And where did the " local trains generating a profit for IR " come from? I never indicated that.

That's was a reply to Bharatiya's post, not yours.

What is an excuse?? :wallbash: Isnt it IR or GOVT's duty to see to it that basic things are covered ?

Read my post again. This time as a neutral person and not a sentimental Mumbaikar. We both are in agreement actually.

I am again quoting for you:

Of course not. It deserves much more that this, even if it means more burden on centre. But the excuse should not be that it generates profits. Instead the excuse should be that 6 million people travel in sub-human conditions daily, which is not justifiable by any means.

All I said that saying that Mumbai suburban should be upgraded because it generates revenues for IR is incorrect because it is in fact a burden on IR's financials like all other suburban systems (and reason for that also includes railways own inefficiency). And I said that in reply to Bhartiya's post.

But the reason for upgrading should be that people deserve better travelling conditions.

I won't be too difficult to comprehend what I was saying if you think as a neutral person.

Of course I agree to that. That apply to every organization, not just IR.

I said that saying that Mumbai suburban should be upgraded because it generates revenues for IR is incorrect because it is in fact a burden on IR's financials like all other suburban systems (and reason for that also includes railways own inefficiency).



It is still running because it receives funds from the centre. If it becomes dependent on its own revenues, it will become even worse.

Call me sentimental mumbaikar or neutral, but I find these posts of yours contradicting. Considering that you agree that IR is inefficient, If the suburban becomes independent, why cant we assume that it can be run efficently instead of assuming that it would become worse? Privatization is also an option. Anways atleast we both agree that people deserve better travelling conditions.

@abhi

I dont understand your argument.

your saying IR makes most of its money from AC class Long distance journey?

But doesnt that require more fuel etc and maintainaince for the train?

shouldn't profitability be decided on Rs per KM model? Cause even the first class section of IR suberban is packed. Any the value of the ticket per sqaure km is more than that of a AC rajdhani from say Mumbai to Delhi

On top of which the railway stations in Mumbai also generate a lot of money for IR through their adverts etc. Those are the hidden advantages. So ticket price must not be the only criteria.

Infact taking the example of a AC First class Rajdhani (mumbai to delhi) is Rs3305

http://indiarailinfo.com/train/seats/1351/297/664

and thats for 1384km of track

http://indiarailinfo.com/train/map/1351/297/664

giving me about 3305/1384= Rs 2.38 per KM

Now lets look at Mumbai suberban railway lets say from Mulund to Mumbai CST


Going from Mulund to Mumbai_CST
Travelling on main line only
Direction : UP
Between time: 07:00 - 8:00
Distance to be travelled : 31km
Estimated Travel time: 39 to 52 min
First Class one side Ticket: Rs. 104

http://www.go4mumbai.com/railwaylookup.php?source=mulund-B-9-Mulund&destination=mumbai_cst-B-26-Mumbai_CST&time=07:00&Submit=++++Search++++

First Class One side Ticket cost per KM= 104/31=3.35



So person in the first class of the Mumbai suberban pays more per km of track than any person in long distance journey.

Passenger services in general dun make much money for IR.. Haven't we heard this story for years already now? the cargo has always cross subsidized passenger services (suburban or long distance). That of course is no excuse for the poor service! bite the bullet and raise fares, or shut up and fix the system with govt. money! Lets not justify the crap that is IR here!

Passenger services in general dun make much money for IR.. Haven't we heard this story for years already now? the cargo has always cross subsidized passenger services (suburban or long distance). That of course is no excuse for the poor service! bite the bullet and raise fares, or shut up and fix the system with govt. money! Lets not justify the crap that is IR here!

I think they make a profit in mumbai suburban for sure. Cause trains are packed 3 times over. Plus its not the freight which subsidies the Mumbai suberban rail.

Its the first class ticket which subsidies the second class rail ticket.

Mulund to CST first class costs Rs104 one way

and costs Rs 9 second class.

both of them are jam packed.

104 bucks!! thats crazy!

actually my employees get a season pass for 3k or something, so yeah its not cheap. i can get a season pass in nyc for that much

104 bucks!! thats crazy!

actually my employees get a season pass for 3k or something, so yeah its not cheap. i can get a season pass in nyc for that much

lol why do you think i always travelled second class. There is just no advantage travelling first class.

though many people do travel in first class its still packed to the hilt. So obviously people do it maybe for the crowd in first class which to be honest is pretty well off. Mostly made up a college students with rich parents....

i would think rich kids wouldnt take the train

or maybe they would if they travel from the burbs to the city. or vice-versa

repeat

i would think rich kids wouldnt take the train

or maybe they would if they travel from the burbs to the city. or vice-versa

well this price is from Mulund to CST which is pretty much the furthest suburb of Mumbai

Prices from Dadar to CST first class are Rs41 (which isactually more expensive per square km than mulund)

What happens is that dad takes the car so in order to get to college train is the only option.

Parents dont want to give these kids cars or bikes.

they usually get drivers i would think

unless you mean upper middle class

and surely you mean per km and not per square km?

they usually get drivers i would think

unless you mean upper middle class

and surely you mean per km and not per square km?

yes yes per km

I dont know why i keep getting sqaure in my head. Its been a long day :nuts:

Call me sentimental mumbaikar or neutral, but I find these posts of yours contradicting. Considering that you agree that IR is inefficient, If the suburban becomes independent, why cant we assume that it can be run efficently instead of assuming that it would become worse? Privatization is also an option. Anways atleast we both agree that people deserve better travelling conditions.

When did I said that privatization or making suburban independent is not good. I am in favour of that. You are blaming me for things which I didn't said :(

@abhi

I dont understand your argument.

your saying IR makes most of its money from AC class Long distance journey?

But doesnt that require more fuel etc and maintainaince for the train?

shouldn't profitability be decided on Rs per KM model? Cause even the first class section of IR suberban is packed. Any the value of the ticket per sqaure km is more than that of a AC rajdhani from say Mumbai to Delhi

On top of which the railway stations in Mumbai also generate a lot of money for IR through their adverts etc. Those are the hidden advantages. So ticket price must not be the only criteria.

Well, I am not sure that AC fares are subsidized or profitable but passenger services as a whole are subsidized by profits from freight. Logic suggests that IR would not be subsidizing rich people (AC fares), who can afford air travel, though I might be wrong.

And I don't think that I class in Mumbai suburban subsidizes all of II class fares as number of II class travellers is much more and many II class ticket holders travel in I class also.

I have no reason to believe that suburban railway is profitable. Every railway in India is subsidized. Even Delhi metro is subsidized. And you think ministers won't subsidize suburban railway, I mean RAILWAYS !! Railways is so important in politics, you know that and will they let it go untampered ?

If we can obtain official figures, then it would be better, otherwise we will just be assuming things.

Well, I am not sure that AC fares are subsidized or profitable but passenger services as a whole are subsidized by profits from freight. Logic suggests that IR would not be subsidizing rich people (AC fares), who can afford air travel, though I might be wrong.

And I don't think that I class in Mumbai suburban subsidizes all of II class fares as number of II class travellers is much more and many II class ticket holders travel in I class also.

I have no reason to believe that suburban railway is profitable. Every railway in India is subsidized. Even Delhi metro is subsidized. And you think ministers won't subsidize suburban railway, I mean RAILWAYS !! Railways is so important in politics, you know that and will they let it go untampered ?

If we can obtain official figures, then it would be better, otherwise we will just be assuming things.

Come on dude Rs104 and Rs9 clearly there is heavy subsidisation. Within the suburban itself. The ratio of first to second class 1:5 in terms of carriages. Ie on central locals atleast its 2 first carriages to 10 for second. Politicians love to tax the rich and pay the poor dont they? So why not tax the relatively rich mumbaikars and then subsidies the rest of India where more votes are up for grabs?

I do know for a fact from an acquaintance I know that the real money made by Mumbai suburban is actually from the advertising space in the stations. As i said its not just the fare.You have to consider the whole system.


Now obviously if IR decide to carry out the massive upgrades all the tracks need etc and station improvements they will make a loss when doing so. However as things stand they run the system at a profit.

the first class is packed. As is the second class. Each train in rush hour carried nearly 3 times the actual max recommended number. Ie a train meant to carry 1700 (seating and standing) ends up carrying 5100

With such high numbers travelling per train its really not that hard to believe that the suburban is a profit making venture.

BEST (the bus service in Mumbai) does make a profit even with subsided ticket prices.(main profits through advertising on the bus) You just have to look at the budget of the BMC for that. Same reason being too many people in the bus.

http://www.mcgm.gov.in/irj/portal/anonymous?NavigationTarget=navurl://dade06f1302b49150e2ce75bbf4f8094#


Its not that hard to believe that the suburban does not make a profit considering its much poorer brother BEST is making a profit.

Folks, the profit / loss discussion is great. However I am disgusted with the basic service for Mumbai provided by IR. The former discussion needs to be with boards of companies, the later is a public issue.

For the board of IR: here are the tasks they need to address besides profit/loss. They need to come up with a plan to decongest the travel by a) increasing the railway platforms and trains, maybe add more coaches. The current system is worse than any 3rd world railway system. Only monkeys can travel in such conditions. I pity the Mumbaikars and the system they have to put up with. Maybe they out to storm the IR Babus/officials and demand a change forthwith. Immediate modernization is job # 1. The status quo will not work. They have to immediately get a loan from the Central Govt and fix the darn thing. We fixed the ancient bus system with JNRUM scheme. Time to have a scheme to update the railways, yes, call it the Rajiv-Nehru-Indira Railway Upgrade Scheme (I like RINSUR - Rajiv, Indira, Nehru Scheme for Upgrade of Railways) or whatever. Mumbai deserves the first dibs in the scheme. This is the commerce capital of India and time for a change.

On the profit/loss: IR is a massive pithole for corruption. There are too many pigs feeding of the trough of IR kickbacks, supply, etc. Time to put an end to these fat pigs. Yes barbeque them. Next have a system to track the per employee productivity and measure up to the norms in the world. Too many duffers in IR collecting pay checks and doing nothing. Netas love to appoint their favorite district/state folks and bloat the employee count.

Next review the per km cost and add 10% profit and make all tickets adhere to these per km cost. There is no other substitute to running an efficient self sustaining system other than by following the basics of economics.

@ Ichi - I hope you are right.

In first class, you can smell sweat mixed with perfume, in second class you cannot.

In first class, you can smell sweat mixed with perfume, in second class you cannot.

For men, choices are : Axe v/s Chameli ka tel

For women: Fa v/s Three day old mogra (Gajra)

Barrykul has summed it up rather nicely, i hope all agree.

You guys must have seen the new Siemens EMU which has been partially implemented in November 2007 on the western line. They havent introduced it on the harbour lines yet, what is taking them so long. It is already April, where are the trains?



Indian Express

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/909/94761433.jpg

Why havent they gone for EMUs with automatic closing doors and air conditioning? Looks like we have to live with this for 30-40 more years now. They should have atleast gone for the EMUs which are comparable to the EMUs in other parts of the world. It is almost as if they are encouraging footboard travel with these even with the new EMUs.

Here is a passby video of the 15 car EMU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-tIn6WAVtU

7-tIn6WAVtU


Meanwhile here is a video of the suburban railway in waterfront vancouver, [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjaiqOtMuxE[/urlfjaiqOtMuxE] checkout the amazing frequency. Do you guys think somthing like this is possible in Mumbai ?

I have given up on the railways long time back.Nothing is going to change at least in the near future .I use BEST while travelling for work it may take 30 -45 mins more but heck at least the buses are clean.And the newer buses are much better compared to the older buses.

Integral Coach Factory (ICF) in Perambur, Chennai must be disbanded and sold to a junk yard. This is an age old relic of a place trying its best to keep apace with modern times. They dutifully apply for ISO approval, barely manage the operations and their design team is laughable. They have old war horses manning the place, still stuck in old design philosophies. Just read the comments of Chief Design Engineer,Chief Workshop Engineer, Chief Electrical Engineer .. blah, bhah. They are stuck in some old central bureau of design mold, 16 changes, waiting for Siemens, can't sacrifice two seats for doors. Hilarious. When you have people like these deciding the fate of what is needed in 2010 and beyond for India you want to cry.

Where is the dynamism of an young engineering team with a gleam of accomplishing world beating designs, eager to make their own excellent world class suspension system, create a beautifully crafted next generation Indian coach, with amenities bar none. Yes, they are all over the place in India waiting to contribute, just graduated from top universities, have read the latest trends on the internet, they have the latest 3D CAD tools loaded on their Personal Computers to imagine things and make it happen, would gladly work 18 hrs a day to make something truly worthy. What happened. Yes, the same old tired leadership which can't crack the whip, choked by the staid organization which is in some time warp, unwilling to yield and unshackle the talent inherent in India. Cry my fellow citizens, for this is what the state of our Babus/Netas are today.

inquilab!!

For men, choices are : Axe v/s Chameli ka tel

For women: Fa v/s Three day old mogra (Gajra)

hahahahaha so true

infact brings back memories.

@barry

look we all agree with your points. But you have been making the same point again and again.

A lot of the time IR projects are held up by illegal structures occupying the tracks. Not only slums but actuall buildings.

the issue of cramping will never be solved. Too many people....

Ichi, I don't get your point, what has population and illegal obstruction/construction got to do with continued bad service and piss-poor trains. I don't think you get what others in this forum are arguing about. The former point is a law and order problem with the city of Mumbai and the later is an IR problem. Both need to be addressed.

Ichi, I don't get your point, what has population and illegal obstruction/construction got to do with continued bad service and piss-poor trains. I don't think you get what others in this forum are arguing about. The former point is a law and order problem with the city of Mumbai and the later is an IR problem. Both need to be addressed.

ok let me clarify

the service lets dissect into that

some basic facts

Mumbai suberban is divided into two main administrative divisions

(a) western

(b) central

Now central is further divided into two

main central line which ends at either Kasara or Badlapur or Kalyan or even Thane depending on the service.

Harbour which end at Panvel and its the connection to the southern part of navi mumbai.

In addition there is a line running from Thane to Vashi/Nerul which is also part of the administration of Central railways which is classified under Harbour.


Western and Central railway admins are independent entities within IR.


Service

IMO is two major parts leaving money and affordability aside.

(a) Frequency and Speed of Commute

(b) Quality of Ride

(c) Safety



Now lets discuss part (a) There is a train every 2 min during rush hour and the last i travelled from Mulund station there was a a fast train (50km per hour operating speed) every 2 min. Slow trains (35km per hour operating speed) even off rush hour its about one train every 3-4 min. Thats the central and western line. Harbour does certainly have frenquency issues and trains from Panvel are about spaced 6min apart even during rush hour and there are no fast trains. But in general the frequency on the main and traditional parts of Western and Central railways are as good as any in the world. They are currently adding new services from Thane to Panvel and Panvel to CST at a very good rate. In the enxt 5-6 years we should see Harbour lines getting the same frequency of greater Salsette island. (the island which contains greater mumbai and the city of Thane) (google it up). Overall speed of trains is also as fast as any other line in the world. No doubt that it has the potential to operate at operational speeds of 50-60km per hour but the biggest reason they dont is retards trying to cross the rail lines. All in all this segment of travel I will give good marks to Mumbai suburban.

Now lets look at the quality of ride.(b) . To put it bluntly its horrible. They are super cramped. In rush hour its like fighting a mega battle. But I really have travelled on the London tube in rush hour. Its only slightly better during rush hour and from the videos on youtube I looked on at tokyo its really no better.


Now lets look at safety (c) The vast majority of deaths on the system are people trying to cross the lines and are killed by the trains. Clearly these people dont deserve any sympathy what so ever as they are just dumb not to use a FOB provided even at bridges. As i mentioned before I have seen many times women when 3-4 year old children try to cross the track despite an FOB being provided. Many of these people get their feet trapped in the rails and then end up dead. Other category are heroes who ride on top of the trains to be just that "heroes". The bottom line being if you have proper sense, the chances of you being dead are slim very very slim. In essence its a safe system.


The Other Factors.

Lets look at the geographic shape of Mumbai. Its like one elongated city and not circular in shape or semi circular (as is the case with cities which are on the coast). A sort of tapering penis.(let be adults about this). Unfortunatly the CBD of Mumbai is located at one end of the city.(ie the southern end). This makes travelling distances much much longer and passengers only embark at preceding station which are larger in number.


In conclusion. I feel many of you have not had a first experience of riding the Mumbai locals and are jumping to a lot of conclusions.

(a) The basic fact is the the people who ride the the trains are dumb idiots who just lack the proper civic sense. Thats just a fact. You give these people palace on wheels and they will somehow manage to fcuk it up in the name of "baap ki property" mentality.Again my mom told me that they introduced the female compartment cause at the trains began to cramp many men used to pinch the asses of the women and then blame it on the cramped conditions. Not to mention the people who keep riding on train tops due to a "breeze" even out of rush hour when trains are not super densely packed. Another reason why trains pack it in during a monsoon is due to too many retards trying to cross over despite FOB's being provided.

(b) Even the metro is going to have super cramped conditions when its finished. Infact if you look at the estimates of the mumbai metro (1) itself it expects to reach those super cramped conditions in 3-4 years of operation. The rich are not going to leave their cars for that.

(c) IR even if it was the most efficiently run org in the world would have a max carrying capacity of only 5 million people overall. That would still mean cramped conditions for the 7 million people that travel on the trains. A metro is not going to change that as the number of people travelling will keep on increasing with respect to lines built.

(d) Its too late for Mumbai suburban to expand (which was needed in the 1970s). In an ideal world they should have expanded till Colaba from say chruch gate and CST then conditions would be slightly better.

All in all even if you build the metro and make IR as efficient as possible. the cramped travelling conditions are set to stay. That is not going to change at all. You are still going to fight a personal battle with yourself.

You are not going to change the fact that there are too many people in Mumbai and all of them seem to travel north to south in rush hour and south to north in the evening rush hour. You are not going to change the fact that people lack civic sense to use the system further hampering it. Till there is a change in mentality you are not going to have a smooth ride(leaving cramping aside)

The only real solution to the mess is moving the offices all over the metropolitan area so more and more people can walk to work. Ofcourse thats going on right now. But not at the pace it should be.

Closed door trains are not going to stop cramping or going to stop the deaths from retards crossing the tracks. If anything you want an AC travel is going to be of no use what so ever with that many cramped in a small space and your assuming the doors will close with just excess supply of people to carry. In addition if a terrorist bomb does go off in those close door trains you can just multiply the number of dead from a normal train blast by 2.

(a) The basic fact is the the people who ride the the trains are dumb idiots who just lack the proper civic sense.



I would have to disagree, for a matter of fact most of the users in peak hours mainly the office crowd. You would never find them doing all the holligan acts which you mentioned. There are dumb idiots lacking civic sense, but you cant lable every one that!

Service :- The crowding can be controlled with increased frequency and introducing fast trains on the routes which do not exist. Whatever it takes they need to do it, do you really think it is impossible?



Now lets look at safety (c) The vast majority of deaths on the system are people trying to cross the lines and are killed by the trains. Clearly these people dont deserve any sympathy what so ever as they are just dumb not to use a FOB provided even at bridges. As i mentioned before I have seen many times women when 3-4 year old children try to cross the track despite an FOB being provided. Many of these people get their feet trapped in the rails and then end up dead. Other category are heroes who ride on top of the trains to be just that "heroes". The bottom line being if you have proper sense, the chances of you being dead are slim very very slim. In essence its a safe system.




Deaths by people crossing the tracks should be delt with differently, but what about people travelling on the train? Without any doors and people hanging on footboards is a disaster waiting to happen. I remember when i was kid, there was this incident were legs of 4-5 people travelling on the local were chopped off in a mishap and it was all over the news. They key word is preventive, IR cant just sit on their a$$es waiting for people to die and then implement something.




In addition if a terrorist bomb does go off in those close door trains you can just multiply the number of dead from a normal train blast by 2.

I didnt get that? how is not having doors going to save any lives?

With all the advancement India has been making, its high time we upgraded, tell me a one good reason why should people get substandard service day after day and year after year?

I want to highlight a few key points about the mess in Railways.

IR accounting is a bunch of hogwash. They still used methods (borrowed from the Brits) that are not up to international standards of Accounting like GAAP. We cannot figure out from the books where funds are allocated, where the expenses are, what are performance metrics and where are the financial numbers behind them. You don't have to take my word for it, but here are the words of

Rajaram Bojji, Fellow of National Academy of Engineering Fellow of Institution of Engineers, M.Tech., Indian Railway Service of Engineers (1970-2005) Former MD/ Konkan Railway Corporation..

Are you all aware the Konkan Railway carries almost Rs 1000 cr as capitalised interest for the actual project cost of Rs 2500 cr and then over Rs 3000 cr, annual interest burden at 10% is loaded on the small corporation! It is actually a killing proposition. We have no courage to change some archaic British rules and with glee other mandarins play with railway guys. It took more than 7 years to fight for converting the loan assistance being given for servicing loan, in to preferential capital shares, with the result, the company was paying interest on interest and it was a nightmarish book-keeping, reflecting a sadistic administration.

And then he goes on to state the mind set and vision of IR

There is no dearth of vision amongst railway mandarins. But they have a restriction and constrained by the vision of India. Does India have a vision statement? Railway is a mere cog in the wheel which has to tailor their vision to the same. if India has myopic vision, since Railway has to see through the same eye, will also be having myopic vision.

Actually many smart mandarins of Railways have to accept the limitation and function within the constraints of total distrust, abuse of vigilance, outmoded stores procurements codes, disciplinary rules, frowned upon innovation as it does not have rules for managing, making service a game of surviving snakes and ladder game. The vision of every officer is to seek the narrow path of not getting embroiled in some unwanted controversy and remain as anonymous as possible, to peacefully retire at the highest possible level as luck would permit, and settle down for a drawing monthly pension.

If we expect railway to have vision, first the Planning Commission must have a vision for India and what kind of railway they want.

All infrastructure modernisation and expansion, high speeds technology, policy make over from British manuals to become liberated to treat Indian company as Indian, for the purpose of open funding and development with public money without throwing in the gamut of CBI and Vigilance. Do we have self-confidence to trust each other, Indians among themselves.

I would have to disagree, for a matter of fact most of the users in peak hours mainly the office crowd. You would never find them doing all the holligan acts which you mentioned. There are dumb idiots lacking civic sense, but you cant lable every one that!

The vast majority dont have civic sense. I see people littering all over the station despite bin being provided. I have seen this for the 6 years I used the train repeated nearly everyday. So i fully stick by my comments. People reallyt dont have civic sense. even the office crowd.

Service :- The crowding can be controlled with increased frequency and introducing fast trains on the routes which do not exist. Whatever it takes they need to do it, do you really think it is impossible?

frequency in rush hour is already 2 min. Considering the time taken for embarking disembarking is not possible to increase frequency. You will have to build more platforms and tracks so that 3 trains arrive at a station at the same time going to the same destination. For which there is no space considering that the station lay in some of the most heavily built areas in the world!!!

Plus what fast routes which are not already there on the network are you talking about? The central and western railways have fast routes travelling at 50/60km per hour operational speed. That cant be increased.


Deaths by people crossing the tracks should be delt with differently, but what about people travelling on the train? Without any doors and people hanging on footboards is a disaster waiting to happen. I remember when i was kid, there was this incident were legs of 4-5 people travelling on the local were chopped off in a mishap and it was all over the news. They key word is preventive, IR cant just sit on their a$$es waiting for people to die and then implement something.


These people should wait for the next train. As i said I travelled from Mulund and just left the trains starting from Ambernath and usually caught the Thane starting trains. Frequency is high enough for them to do so.

You have to face the fact that even if IR rans things very well. (they dont is another issue) these facts are not going to go away.




I didnt get that? how is not having doors going to save any lives?

With all the advancement India has been making, its high time we upgraded, tell me a one good reason why should people get substandard service day after day and year after year?



People will get substandard service cause the root cause is Mumbai is overpopulated. Thats the core issue. You are not facing upto that.


My point was the a nail bomb etc as used in the train attacks in 2006 will cause twice as many casualties than it actually caused due to exploding in a contained and confined environment. Lets be honest and accept that we will be targeted by terrorists again.With the open trains many of those in the compartments escaped with their lives as they were just thrown out of the train but managed to survive.

Commuting is going to be the same case with the metro. If you think that the metro is going to give you some sort of good commute people need to lower their expectations. Its frequency running at full capacity will be 3.5 minutes. I can already see the big lines.

The only route which is truly comfortable in the suburban system is the Thane to Vashi/Nerul one. Even during morning rush hour.People get seats and there is breathing space. The open doors allows the wind in and its fantastic!!!Perfect!!! Any train service from the burbs into the city proper will always be a nightmare. Too many people travelling in the same direction.

So you cant say all the routes are substandard cause they are not.

So honestly you are a kharghar boy. Why dont you travel to Thane from say Nerul/Vashi and then rate the service? To make a more informed estimate?

Not for one second saying that IR is competent or Mumbai does not deserve better. But I have come to the conclusion that even with the best service possible with the private sector the journey will still be hell and substandard.

ok let me clarify


Sorry Ich, all you have managed to show are two things a) some moronic division in Mumbai's IR administration b) law and order problems in railway travel.

The former is completely moronic, I don't see a need to divide a City like Mumbai had have two thiefdoms battling for control. We need a wholistic solution to the public transport needs of Mumbai. Having umpteen divisions is counter productive. There are basic flaws in service and standards that need to be addressed.

On b) I see this as flouting rules. We need the Central Reserve Railway Police force to apprehend any violators. All trains deserve a door to be closed during travel. Anyone hanging onto the train are promptly pulled up and locked in jail. That is it. We don't need the tail to wag the dog.

Sorry Ich, all you have managed to show are two things a) some moronic division in Mumbai's IR administration b) law and order problems in railway travel.

The former is completely moronic, I don't see a need to divide a City like Mumbai had have two thiefdoms battling for control. We need a wholistic solution to the public transport needs of Mumbai. Having umpteen divisions is counter productive. There are basic flaws in service and standards that need to be addressed.

On b) I see this as flouting rules. We need the Central Reserve Railway Police force to apprehend any violators. All trains deserve a door to be closed during travel. Anyone hanging onto the train are promptly pulled up and locked in jail. That is it. We don't need the tail to wag the dog.

so how will you close the door at stations when too many people try to get on?

I would like to know.

another question. Have you travelled by mumbai suburban railways frequently enough?

On the law and order, there is really nothing a cop can do in those cramped conditions. There is a female cop usually in the womens compartment. but she is rendered useless as she is unable to move due to cramping.

^^ Bhai Saab, you are throwing up straw men for what appears to be a simple solution. Have you seen Central Reserve Railway Police or CISF, they are almost army trained and they can handle crowds galore. You have stringent enforcement on day one and all these problems disappear. Poof. A few gun toting tough guys is all it takes. If you act tough and enforce things all the pussycats disappear. Then doors will be closed properly and no one dares to circumvent any rules. Yes, it works.

^^ Bhai Saab, you are throwing up straw men for what appears to be a simple solution. Have you seen Central Reserve Railway Police or CISF, they are almost army trained and they can handle crowds galore. You have stringent enforcement on day one and all these problems disappear. Poof. A few gun toting tough guys is all it takes. If you act tough and enforce things all the pussycats disappear. Then doors will be closed properly and no one dares to circumvent any rules. Yes, it works.

no it doesnt. Important stations do have these gun wielding tough guys. It still does not work.

and hows this a straw man?

you still have now answered how are you going to close the doors of these trains?

In japan they have people people who push people into the train

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Do you think this will work in india?

Doors in Mumbai would cause too many delays and add to suffocation.

Right now trains come to a station for 30 seconds. If a train had to wait for the doors to close, it would take forever to leave every station. See this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQdS5HY_O6k

^^ Bhai Saab, you are throwing up straw men for what appears to be a simple solution. Have you seen Central Reserve Railway Police or CISF, they are almost army trained and they can handle crowds galore. You have stringent enforcement on day one and all these problems disappear. Poof. A few gun toting tough guys is all it takes. If you act tough and enforce things all the pussycats disappear. Then doors will be closed properly and no one dares to circumvent any rules. Yes, it works.


You obviously have not been to Mumbai. There is so much pushing and shoving from behind, doors would never close.

This is not the Taliban! CISF can't use guns on people who push and shove, so what difference does it make that they have guns?

Doors in Mumbai would cause too many delays and add to suffocation.

Right now trains come to a station for 30 seconds. If a train had to wait for the doors to close, it would take forever to leave every station. See this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQdS5HY_O6k

exactly

closed doors mean

(a) hiring people to close the doors(as is the case in japan) to push the people totally in. Doable but may lead to a lot of fights. But will lead to over head costs increasing manifold to have people pushing in passengers to close the doors. You would need a mini army for that. Your talking hiring atleast 1000 people for the entire system. Even if you privatise the suburban system these people need to be paid. So the costs of the tickets zoom up.

(b) By the time they get people into the train in rush hour , meaning that it will take 2 minutes atleast considering the crowds. Effectively making time to travel from say Thane to say CST (the first train ran on this route) with 21 stops 30-40 minutes more. This will lead to commuting from the burbs and other areas of Mumbai impossible and will further increase demand of real estate in the city proper and make prices even more affordable.

that would be much worse than what its today.

and it still wont solve the issue of retards being killed by crossing on the tracks.Hell even if you fence it people will climb over that fence and walk on the tracks with all the FOB's in the world.

what mumbai needs more than ever is somebody at the helm who has travailed on the system him/her self and knows it inside out.

There is just no point if they privatise the entire system and then the company in charge bring in somebody from Delhi metro to run it. Cause that person will never understand the finer points of public mentality etc etc.


The best step forward in improve the service is to fully accept that you will never have a smooth ride on the system due to the sheer load of people. From there try to first improve the smaller points like ticket collection system and then move onto the big ones.

Its time we realise that the suburban system has reached its max capacity and cannot be improved upon too much to drastically change the situation.

All those wanting closed door trains. I really hope you have thought things through.....

there may come a day when closed doors are the way forward. But not now......

Lets first wait and see how the metro train from Ghatkopar to versova works. It that has no hitch during rush hour with closed doors etc. Then its the right time to implement it on the suburban. Atleast then you will have some indicators. so hold ya horses for sometime... we have waited for 10-20 years for closed doors. 1-2 more years is not going to hurt.

Sorry I don't buy this argument that you have to be Mumbai train user in order to solve problems. This is like asking a frog in a pond to clean up its mess. Actually, it takes an outsider to come up with a solution. Train doors are a must for safety and other reasons. India continues to perpetuate its 3rd world behaviour and somehow this is justified as okay since it works. Little forgetting the fact, that the behaviour is illegal and insane. There are ways to control crowds thronging a railway station. They can erect a gate control and count the number of people admitted on the platform, the rest are denied access. That is it. Having to hire more people to regulate is okay with me, we can funnel all that NREGA bs into such activity. When you have a system, there are rules and people ought/should obey rules. Flouting the rules does not make it the norm. India has to be a society of rule followers otherwise there is systemic breakdowns.

train doors are a must but not possible with the current loads. after mutp-ii and the opening of new metro and monorail routes if the car density comes down in locals then you can push for doors

i am more interested in them barricading tracks along the length of the system to prevent the 4,000 deaths a year. thats a crime against humanity to allow those numbers to die when it is easily preventable

^^ I was going to say the same thing, put a gate before the platform and control the crowd on the platform. I agree if you have to hire a 1,000 people, then do it. There are millions unemployed in the country anyways. You can't just sit and let people die. It's sad that they are not aware about the value of life.

train doors are a must but not possible with the current loads. after mutp-ii and the opening of new metro and monorail routes if the car density comes down in locals then you can push for doors

i am more interested in them barricading tracks along the length of the system to prevent the 4,000 deaths a year. thats a crime against humanity to allow those numbers to die when it is easily preventable

4,000 deaths a year. Unf**king believable. Damn that's crazy.

They need to make this type of shit more popular. Yeah no wonder 4k people die every year. What is it like 6 a day I last heard? Every day, 6 people lose their lives, (most of them probably men, just see the sex ratio on local trains, and probably providing for their family through this commute to work) and that in turn kills 6 different families. Every fucking day, believe it.
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If this is daily rush hour conditions, it's probably illegal and against some international code of hunamity. We could report this to the UN or something. If you look at 0:25 it looks like one guy is pushing the other so that he falls off and makes more room for himself. I would really hope thats not actually the case. :ohno:

They need to make this type of shit more popular.
If this is daily rush hour conditions, it's probably illegal and against some international code of hunamity. We could report this to the UN or something. If you look at 0:25 it looks like one guy is pushing the other so that he falls off and makes more room for himself. I would really hope thats not actually the case. :ohno:
He wasnt pushing. The guy asked him to remove his leg And in doing do he lost his balance and fell.Thankfully the guy survived .

the daily average is 10-12. not necessarily men, as most of the deaths are due to people crossing tracks

^^ (The video clip) Holy Shit man. I was not expecting that. And people still justify that not having doors is the only solution.

Sorry I don't buy this argument that you have to be Mumbai train user in order to solve problems. This is like asking a frog in a pond to clean up its mess. Actually, it takes an outsider to come up with a solution. Train doors are a must for safety and other reasons. India continues to perpetuate its 3rd world behaviour and somehow this is justified as okay since it works. Little forgetting the fact, that the behaviour is illegal and insane. There are ways to control crowds thronging a railway station. They can erect a gate control and count the number of people admitted on the platform, the rest are denied access. That is it. Having to hire more people to regulate is okay with me, we can funnel all that NREGA bs into such activity. When you have a system, there are rules and people ought/should obey rules. Flouting the rules does not make it the norm. India has to be a society of rule followers otherwise there is systemic breakdowns.

and i keep telling you that closed doors are not practical with these kinds of loads.

you will end up creating a bigger mess.

and no the crowd control your talking about its just not possible cause if you goto control a crowd in a confined area of a station somebody is going to be crushed or pushed right onto the tracks.

and also you keep quoting perfect scenario whereby "this should be done" again and again without keeping in mind the current basic human traits. You dont offer viable practical solutions.

They goto control a crowd like that and they will be flooded with PILs which will further screw them over.


so for now let the system be and lets wait for the metro to come up in the next 10 years to reduce the load on the sub trains. then we can talk about closed doors.


to repeat you cannot have closed doors for such loads.


while you have said lets employ 1000 more people. You still have not given me a proper answer of a train waiting at every station for 2 minutes virtually doubling commute times in most cases.

train doors are a must but not possible with the current loads. after mutp-ii and the opening of new metro and monorail routes if the car density comes down in locals then you can push for doors


correct.



i am more interested in them barricading tracks along the length of the system to prevent the 4,000 deaths a year. thats a crime against humanity to allow those numbers to die when it is easily preventable

the vast majority of crossing like that happen at the station. Ie people crossing on the tracks to get from one platform to another. Despite provisions of an FOB.

There are real barricades in place but people break through them. But maybe an electric fence or something like that. However this is soemthing which can be fixed. But its not going to be easy. They will need to maybe build a barricade right across stations(in between platforms) to stop it.

Though it is possible.

listen guys

I would honestly love closed train doors with Ac travel. Thats in an ideal world.

Reading back and looking at my messages some of you may get an impression that i am some kind of socialist who hates privatisation. Thats far from the truth.

I hate IR in equal measure. Mumbai suburban must be privatised no doubt.In order to improve other issues like being able to book a ticket on-line and a proper site with a proper time table.

However, in terms of practicality, and conditions prevalent i really dont think that closed doors will work.

I have serious doubts of the metro (1) working smoothly and on the time they state it will run.

The solutions for this mess lay in

(a) making more offices all over MMR

(b) having more modes of transport like a BRTS, metro monorail and ferry service.

Then only can real changes be seen in the quality of travel

frequency in rush hour is already 2 min. Considering the time taken for embarking disembarking is not possible to increase frequency. You will have to build more platforms and tracks so that 3 trains arrive at a station at the same time going to the same destination. For which there is no space considering that the station lay in some of the most heavily built areas in the world,



If the space is not available, relocate people and make space for more tracks. Point is, do what it takes, innovate..Hire the best brains in the world to do the thinking and improve the service.
Inside the trains, they can have minimum seating like in the metro EMUs to create more space for the people to stand. Let them have more doors so that in 20-25 secs people can embard and disembark quickly. Once this is achived, they can defiently improve on the frequency. Ticketing system needs improvement, Information should be available to the masses real time..there should be system in place to not allow any ticketless travelling..etc ..etc.



Plus what fast routes which are not already there on the network are you talking about? The central and western railways have fast routes travelling at 50/60km per hour operational speed. That cant be increased.



I am talking about the Harbour line, CST -Panvel. There are no fasts on this Line. Even on the Panvel Thane route, there is only one fast in a day, or is it 2?


People will get substandard service cause the root cause is Mumbai is overpopulated. Thats the core issue. You are not facing upto that.



I agree Mumbai is over populated, but it did not get over populated over night. The point is there was not much done to maintain the service or upgrade it.



So you cant say all the routes are substandard cause they are not.

Why dont you travel to Thane from say Nerul/Vashi and then rate the service? To make a more informed estimate?



I have travelled on the Panvel - Thane, Nerul - Thane trains and they are comparatively less crowded. But the services as a whole leave a lot to be desired.



Not for one second saying that IR is competent or Mumbai does not deserve better. But I have come to the conclusion that even with the best service possible with the private sector the journey will still be hell and substandard.

Call me optimistic, but after putting up with the crap IR has been doling out all these years, i would like to belive that the journey could be improved with anybody else taking over.

If the space is not available, relocate people and make space for more tracks. Point is, do what it takes, innovate..Hire the best brains in the world to do the thinking and improve the service.
Inside the trains, they can have minimum seating like in the metro EMUs to create more space for the people to stand. Let them have more doors so that in 20-25 secs people can embard and disembark quickly. Once this is achived, they can defiently improve on the frequency. Ticketing system needs improvement, Information should be available to the masses real time..there should be system in place to not allow any ticketless travelling..etc ..etc.

you do that then you will face 50 years of PILs from the residents who are staying there legally. Forget about it mumbai is too cramped for that. hiring best brains in the world will not solve the court cases.

not to mention expanding stations like CST in the city proper would be virtually impossible and if you goto extend them then you will need a hell of a lot of money to do so. I am talking bucket loads. On top of which many heritage structures will have to come down.

the doors are big enough. They are much wider than most trains in the world. If you look at an average train its not possible to add more and bigger doors. ie they are at a full limit. Trust me dude, its not going to be more than 2 min for frequency. thats as good as it will get even if you hire the best in the world. Considering the crowds of people 20-25 sec just unrealistic.


They are already in the process of constructing a fast line from Panvel to CST. so there is action being taken. Only extending the harbour line till Borivali is on the cards.


I am also very surprised about your opinion of the thane to nerul trains. I honestly found the ride to be very good. I guess our experiences differ

the reason why there is one train from thane to panvel is because demand is not that great. A private sector company would never run routes which are not in demand. So you can kiss the CST to panvel route which is a loss making route goodbye if the private sector does take over.

A lot of routes in Navi mumbai are not profit making routes. I hope people dont complain when a private company takes over an shuts down or severely reduces frequency on some of these routes in the name of supply and demand.

Cause as things stand the biggest beneficiaries of a private takeover will be the main central route and western locals.


routes such as Dahanu to borivali or vasai and Panvel to cst are going to see severe reductions or going to get axed

To further emphasise.

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/607/588pxmumbaisuburbanrail.png


The routes marked in red are not profitable routes. There is a good chance that with a private company they will axe the routes or heavily reduce frequency.

The harbour line is only profitable till Nerul.

Beyond Nerul it comes loss making.Mostly will be axed with trains stopping only till nerul

Thane to Vashi-Nerul is a fully loss making line and mostly will be axed.



If you all are cool with that then go ahead. More power to the people in greater mumbai.....

Thanks for the map.
I am seriously not into economics, so excuse me if it sounds dumb.. with better trains and services, advertizing, value added services, keeping a check on ticketless travellers blah blah..cant a private org make the non profit making routes profit making? We dont even know if the accounts books are cooked, barrykul has elobrated more in his post about the iefficient accounting system of the IR. The thing is i am not saying that privatisation would be the best for us or nor i am against it, but there should an independent body managing the complete mumbai suburban rail system, it can be of any model PPP, Public, private what ever the experts think is the best for the city.

Thanks for the map.
I am seriously not into economics, so excuse me if it sounds dumb.. with better trains and services, advertizing, value added services, keeping a check on ticketless travellers blah blah..cant a private org make the non profit making routes profit making? We dont even know if the accounts books are cooked, barrykul has elobrated more in his post about the iefficient accounting system of the IR. The thing is i am not saying that privatisation would be the best for us or nor i am against it, but there should an independent body managing the complete mumbai suburban rail system, it can be of any model PPP, Public, private what ever the experts think is the best for the city.

they potentially can. but what would mean that people are (a) ready to bid for this (b) the winning bid does have the right ideas.(ie that person wants to expand the business rather than maintain it)

but your assuming a lot of things. It could be just whats needed. Or it could be a disaster.Usually capitalism means in very basic terms supply meets demand. If there is demand then only will they build it.

In this case maybe a second class ticket rises from Rs9 to Rs90 (one way) for it to be profitable. And first class to something like Rs150.


The problem say for Belapur to panvel is that there is just not that much population to support a railway line with any meaningful frequency. On top of which I read a lot of people in these areas already own cars and work nearby further reducing the population which travels.

The big population nodes in Navi mumbai are Nerul and Vashi which probably make up about 60-70% of the population of Navi mumbai. Maybe 10-12 years down the line when Panvel has enough pop to support a railway station on its own will it be profitable. (same argument for the area till Dahanu road)

I think US went down this road (US based posters can back me up with this or say i am wrong) )with privatising railways and ended up in a lot of routes being chalked off. for them reducing the number of routes worked. so maybe its worth a try to reduce the number of lines in mumbai with privatisation. Increased ticket prices for a better journey into work.

I do know for a fact that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Transit_Authority

NYC subway is run by the gov (public authority) and runs many routes which are loss making inorder to reduce congestion in other parts of the city. (ie more people will move to those areas)

So mumbai needs to chose what exactly it wants.

Inside the trains, they can have minimum seating like in the metro EMUs to create more space for the people to stand. Let them have more doors so that in 20-25 secs people can embard and disembark quickly.


This is what i was talking about when i said having more doors and less seats. Also check the link for pictures of EMUs from Japan. http://funini.com/train/tokyo/

http://funini.com/train/tokyo/e231_chuosobu/13.jpg

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/854/large2bi7.jpg

^those doors are just not wide enough

people will get crushed.

every compartment in Mumbai rail has 4-5 wide doors with usually 2 windows in between

I would think they have more door space(exist space) than the example above.

In the example you have posted I am guessing 2 people can pass through the door at the same time. In Mumbai usually its 4/5 people

those doors are just not wide enough

people will get crushed.

In the example you have posted I am guessing 2 people can pass through the door at the same time. In Mumbai usually its 4/5 people

There are bars in between the doors on the Mumbai locals, so effectively, 2-3-4 people can pass through it at a time. Not sure if the Jap trains have any bars in between, cant see any. If there are more doors even with the same width as the Japs i would like to belive that it would be more effective than the current ones. I am sure that the Japs would have done enough R&D before coming up with that design. We can also have more number of wider doors if that is best for us.

One more option, we can have different doors to embark and differnt doors to disembark in an alternate fashion, just a thought? ( i know it would be chaos, but just thinking of the possibilities.)

There are bars in between the doors on the Mumbai locals, so effectively, 2-3-4 people can pass through it at a time. Not sure if the Jap trains have any bars in between, cant see any. If there are more doors even with the same width as the Japs i would like to belive that it would be more effective than the current ones. I am sure that the Japs would have done enough R&D before coming up with that design. We can also have more number of wider doors if that is best for us.

One more option, we can have different doors to embark and differnt doors to disembark in an alternate fashion, just a thought? ( i know it would be chaos, but just thinking of the possibilities.)

that actually might work.

certainly worth a shot.

we can also have like special crowd separators at major stations like Dadar etc. For people to get on and off without bumping into each other.

Certainly possible for sure.

they potentially can. but what would mean that people are (a) ready to bid for this (b) the winning bid does have the right ideas.(ie that person wants to expand the business rather than maintain it)

but your assuming a lot of things. It could be just whats needed. Or it could be a disaster.Usually capitalism means in very basic terms supply meets demand. If there is demand then only will they build it.

In this case maybe a second class ticket rises from Rs9 to Rs90 (one way) for it to be profitable. And first class to something like Rs150.


The problem say for Belapur to panvel is that there is just not that much population to support a railway line with any meaningful frequency. On top of which I read a lot of people in these areas already own cars and work nearby further reducing the population which travels.

The big population nodes in Navi mumbai are Nerul and Vashi which probably make up about 60-70% of the population of Navi mumbai. Maybe 10-12 years down the line when Panvel has enough pop to support a railway station on its own will it be profitable. (same argument for the area till Dahanu road)

I think US went down this road (US based posters can back me up with this or say i am wrong) )with privatising railways and ended up in a lot of routes being chalked off. for them reducing the number of routes worked. so maybe its worth a try to reduce the number of lines in mumbai with privatisation. Increased ticket prices for a better journey into work.

I do know for a fact that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Transit_Authority

NYC subway is run by the gov (public authority) and runs many routes which are loss making inorder to reduce congestion in other parts of the city. (ie more people will move to those areas)

So mumbai needs to chose what exactly it wants.

I agree with most of what you point out to. In fact many public transit agencies in the US are often funded (fully or partly) by state and federal govts and they are not always profitable. Infact AMTRAK (National Passenger Rail) has never made a profit in about 40 yrs of its existence. But it is still allowed to operate (despite OPP from fiscal conservatives) as it is considered imperative to have some rail service connecting most parts of the country. What is more interesting is that AMTRAK was created to unburden the american railroad companies of passenger train operation and the losses it brought. BTW over 90% of the trackage in the USA is privately owned. For their profit these companies have long given upon providing any passenger service and adopted a model of freight transportation to earn profits. Freight transportation by rail requires much less capital investment than corresponding passenger rail service. In fact companies like Union Pacific (the largest of the lot) resist any attempt to reform the railway system in the USA lest it affect its profit margins. So much so that Amtrak trains running on private tracks often have to give way for imp freight trains and hence have poor punctuality.

The merits of decent connectivity by public transport cannot always be measured by the profit it generates. By its mere presence it can bring a lot of economic benefits to a community.

I agree with most of what you point out to. In fact many public transit agencies in the US are often funded (fully or partly) by state and federal govts and they are not always profitable. Infact AMTRAK (National Passenger Rail) has never made a profit in about 40 yrs of its existence. But it is still allowed to operate (despite OPP from fiscal conservatives) as it is considered imperative to have some rail service connecting most parts of the country. What is more interesting is that AMTRAK was created to unburden the american railroad companies of passenger train operation and the losses it brought. BTW over 90% of the trackage in the USA is privately owned. For their profit these companies have long given upon providing any passenger service and adopted a model of freight transportation to earn profits. Freight transportation by rail requires much less capital investment than corresponding passenger rail service. In fact companies like Union Pacific (the largest of the lot) resist any attempt to reform the railway system in the USA lest it affect its profit margins. So much so that Amtrak trains running on private tracks often have to give way for imp freight trains and hence have poor punctuality.

The merits of decent connectivity by public transport cannot always be measured by the profit it generates. By its mere presence it can bring a lot of economic benefits to a community.


well thats one line of thinking.

see either we can keep the trains cheap enough so that middle people do move out of the city in the knowledge that it is affordable.


Its all about choices. What do the people of Mumbai want?

Is what the people of mumbai want actually good for long term benefit for the city?

Is the populace wise enough and not selfish enough to see the overall picture?

People in greater mumbai will want it privatised and closed doors etc.

People in Thane-Kalyan etc will want a cheap service.

People in Navi Mumbai will have some other demands.


The question is do we keep the railways ridiculously cheap so that people move out of the main city. Or do we let the priviate sector take the lead and decide which services to keep and not and let the exist structure be closed trains and great stations.

and i keep telling you that closed doors are not practical with these kinds of loads.

you will end up creating a bigger mess.

and no the crowd control your talking about its just not possible cause if you goto control a crowd in a confined area of a station somebody is going to be crushed or pushed right onto the tracks.

and also you keep quoting perfect scenario whereby "this should be done" again and again without keeping in mind the current basic human traits. You dont offer viable practical solutions.

They goto control a crowd like that and they will be flooded with PILs which will further screw them over.


so for now let the system be and lets wait for the metro to come up in the next 10 years to reduce the load on the sub trains. then we can talk about closed doors.


to repeat you cannot have closed doors for such loads.


while you have said lets employ 1000 more people. You still have not given me a proper answer of a train waiting at every station for 2 minutes virtually doubling commute times in most cases.

It is quite clear to me that you give a damn about 4000 of your fellow citizens dying every year. All you want is to save 2 minutes of your time. Says quite a lot about you, does it not. The rest of your arguments seem to support/justify a flawed and broken system. There are other ways and means to address them, but you refuse to accept them and create unwarranted strawmen. You can't justify one wrong with another.

Mumbai commuter trains require closed doors. period. This can't wait. We have huge death tolls that are not acceptable in today's world.

It is quite clear to me that you give a damn about 4000 of your fellow citizens dying every year. All you want is to save 2 minutes of your time. Says quite a lot about you, does it not. The rest of your arguments seem to support/justify a flawed and broken system. There are other ways and means to address them, but you refuse to accept them and create unwarranted strawmen. You can't justify one wrong with another.

Mumbai commuter trains require closed doors. period. This can't wait. We have huge death tolls that are not acceptable in today's world.

hmm but the vast majority of the deaths are not caused due to closed door trains but people crossing the tracks.

how is closed doors going to change that?

You have not read the points have you?

and no if commute time doubles then this means that more people take cars and more people have to live in Sobo or the parts containing offices thereby heavily cramping an already cramped area.

If the space is not available, relocate people and make space for more tracks.


You obviously have never been on the Mumbai Railway or in Mumbai for that matter!

There is no space to add tracks or to relocate people! Don't you think they would have done that already if they had the option?

The only option is to add more trains and they're doing exactly that after converting the powerlines to AC

It is quite clear to me that you give a damn about 4000 of your fellow citizens dying every year. All you want is to save 2 minutes of your time. Says quite a lot about you, does it not. The rest of your arguments seem to support/justify a flawed and broken system. There are other ways and means to address them, but you refuse to accept them and create unwarranted strawmen. You can't justify one wrong with another.

Mumbai commuter trains require closed doors. period. This can't wait. We have huge death tolls that are not acceptable in today's world.


There are already doors on these trains! But no one closes them because it's soo f*ing crowded!


People care more about convenience than safety. If you want to go teach them to close doors, go right ahead, but no one is going to close the doors in the hot summers of Mumbai.



Partially closed door of a Local:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/2986695404_36870f79c9.jpg

hmm but the vast majority of the deaths are not caused due to closed door trains but people crossing the tracks.

how is closed doors going to change that?

You have not read the points have you?

and no if commute time doubles then this means that more people take cars and more people have to live in Sobo or the parts containing offices thereby heavily cramping an already cramped area.

Ich, you are not receptive to other ideas either. You constantly throw up strawmen and talk about PILs, population, pouting Mumbai travelers. When there are thousands of ways of solving problems that seem insurmountable, actually if you give this problem to kids they would come up with ingenious solutions. The trouble is that the IR is a staid organization that is loathed to change in the near term. Khargharboi's idea of alternating doors for entry/exit make sense. I would go one step further and make the platform closed of and walled with certain doors that people can line up to certain sections. This would make the system more streamlined. The Mumbai IR has to try out various alternatives, like pilot runs and figure out what works, while at the same time they upgrade the facilities and trains and ensure safety. I am sure a system can be figured out that works well and at the same time is safe. It takes strong leadership and vision, both of which is in short supply at IR.

There are already doors on these trains! But no one closes them because it's soo f*ing crowded!


People care more about convenience than safety. If you want to go teach them to close doors, go right ahead, but no one is going to close the doors in the hot summers of Mumbai.



Partially closed door of a Local:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/2986695404_36870f79c9.jpg

Typically Babu scenario! Present some junky train with half-assed door design, no A/C and then come up with a justification. All great. I would do the same if presented with circa 70s designed coaches. A modern coach has self locking doors, no one needs to close them, its properly air-conditioned and the design is for metro traffic. This is how the rest of the world operates. I don't see why India is any different. The poor infra makes people to flout rules. Quite similar to the way people drive, there is lane discipline on the new Sea Bridge in Mumbai but once they come to the city there is instant chaos. See what I mean, people adapt to the infra presented to them.

No amount of dressing the pig called IR would work. It requires revamp and adoption of systems that are modern and in keeping with the times. Safety and other consideration is a must. Justifying the old crap is of no use.

I would immediately create a SWAT team with young enthusiastic folks who can solve problems. Put them to work and create solutions to vexing problems. Incrementally improve the system wherever it makes sense. There are a thousand ways to solve problems and I am confident India can do it.

Ich, you are not receptive to other ideas either. You constantly throw up strawmen and talk about PILs, population, pouting Mumbai travelers.


Honestly, I think you are a little ignorant of the situation in Mumbai railways. Have you ever been on the Mumbai railway?


I would go one step further and make the platform closed of and walled

So you're proposing to add walls to the already crowded platform?

http://sharmeensahibole.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/mumbai-local-train4.jpg

A modern coach has self locking doors, no one needs to close them, its properly air-conditioned and the design is for metro traffic..


How are your closing doors going to close in this rush?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/50/139771467_b0274bf179.jpg

It takes strong leadership and vision, both of which is in short supply at IR.

Agreed. All they need to do is hire consultants and think outside the box. Of course the trains with doors is not the only solution but what they need to do is overhaul the entire system. A couple of days back I ranted in BWSL thread about driving situation. You can't expect people to follow discipline when everything around them is a sheer chaos. Overhauling the entire system is the only solution. Imagine what would happen in 20-30 years from now. By then, collective modes of transportation like Metro, Monorail, Ferry would not be enough.

Nik: Don't be stuck up with existing scenarios, they are quite hopeless and retarded. Just read all the solutions being proposed. There are creative ways of solving such problems. Have you seen other systems work throughout the world which are equally crowded and have solved such problems. Being in the pond called Mumbai Railways for Metro traffic does not make you an expert, neither would it equip you to solve the problems. You have to stand back and approach it with known workable solutions that are used elsewhere. The Mumbai Model as it stands today is utter crap thrust by IR on Mumbai folks. Plain and simple.

There is no space to add tracks or to relocate people! Don't you think they would have done that already if they had the option?



Isnt building elevated tracks for fast trains an option? Ofcourse it wouldnt be required in places where land can be aquired. There elevated lines in lot of crowded cities of the world, perhaves we need to explore that option. Looks like you are in the comfort zone of the chaos and do not want any changes for good. We are proberbly late by a decade or 2, We need to make drastic changes now, NOW !!

I have modified niknak's pic to show what i meant in my previous post of having differnt doors for getting in and getting out. http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1011/trainnw.jpg

Ofcourse there has to be more doors closer to each other and minimum seating for people to move around freely. This would make boarding the train and geting out faster and smoother. Auto closing doors will ensure people are not travelling on the foot board and also not jumping off and boarding a moving train. People will automatically wait for the next train if there is no place to board and no option of hanging on. It would require moderation and enforcement for few years or months proberly.

The elevated rail will be a problem on the western side because the metro will be crossing the east west section at andheri and bandra . so the elevated line will have to go over this lines and they found it not possible .Also there was a problem with changes/expansion of churchgate station incase of an an elevated line .An article has already been on the proposed elevated rail plan posted in this thread .

One solution I can think of is bumping ticket fair (let's say) by 50% during the rush hour period from 8-10 AM and 4-6 PM and bringing the fair down by 25% rest of the day. This will pretty much offset the revenue. That way the fair is basically twice as much during the rush hour time. Also leave the Student ticket fair unchanged, since they don't have control over their schedule. This will encourage people/companies to change their work schedule (obviously if they can). There are hundreds of ways to ease these problems, it only requires some brain storming.

PS: The rush hours are just an example.

^You think companies are going to change their office timings because of travel fare? I don't think so.

One solution I can think of is bumping ticket fair (let's say) by 50% during the rush hour period from 8-10 AM and 4-6 PM and bringing the fair down by 25% rest of the day. This will pretty much offset the revenue. That way the fair is basically twice as much during the rush hour time. Also leave the Student ticket fair unchanged, since they don't have control over their schedule. This will encourage people/companies to change their work schedule (obviously if they can). There are hundreds of ways to ease these problems, it only requires some brain storming.

PS: The rush hours are just an example.

dude people travel all the way from Kalyan to CST (for eg)

unless you want to royally screw them over raising the fare is not a good option IMO.

these people will just carpool and royally screw up the roads. Not to mention move back to the island city further intensifying the housing shortage


I think its best to wait till other modes of transport come online into the overall system.

I mean with Ghatkopar to Versova I expect to see a reduction in the people changing trains at Dadar.

So I think lets wait for the metro to come online. Hope that it has a sort of domino effect whereby overall reduction in the people travelling on the suburban.

Once density is down in the suburban roll out trains with the closed doors.

We have systems under construction (in mumbai and navi mumbai) all i am saying is lets wait before we think out of the box.

Problem with IR is they should have acted in the 1980s. Ie introduction of closed doors etc. When the density of people was manageable. They missed their chance and as things stand well its like spitting in the wind.

Typical Indian response. Nobody wants to try new ideas instead would criticize your idea and complain about the problems they have. Worst case scenario it would not work. So what? Your existing system is not working anyways, why not give it a try to new ideas for once. The system is pretty much the same as how British left 60+ years ago. Heck they haven't figured out what to do with the stray animals in six decades, how the f**k are they going to come up with a series of solutions to make their cities livable for a billion plus population.

PS: Ichi, my post is not just direct at you. As you can see we pretty much posted at the same time. I posted this before I even saw your post. My (frustrated) post was in response to Maratha's post.

They need to make this type of shit more popular. Yeah no wonder 4k people die every year. What is it like 6 a day I last heard? Every day, 6 people lose their lives, (most of them probably men, just see the sex ratio on local trains, and probably providing for their family through this commute to work) and that in turn kills 6 different families. Every fucking day, believe it.
3Nm5kGok-l8

If this is daily rush hour conditions, it's probably illegal and against some international code of hunamity. We could report this to the UN or something. If you look at 0:25 it looks like one guy is pushing the other so that he falls off and makes more room for himself. I would really hope thats not actually the case. :ohno:

Freak man! Why will someone shoot this video?!!! Its like he expected someone to fall.

I remember I did this once between elphinstone road and dadar!
I had only my toes on the edge of the door and was handing for dear life with my fingers and they were getting tired too!
I almost pissed in my pants - had my eyes closed and was praying all the way. I promised myself never to land up like that again.

Typical Indian response. Nobody wants to try new ideas instead would criticize your idea and complain about the problems they have. Worst case scenario it would not work. So what? Your existing system is not working anyways, why not give it a try to new ideas for once. The system is pretty much the same as how British left 60+ years ago. Heck they haven't figured out what to do with the stray animals in six decades, how the f**k are they going to come up with a series of solutions to make their cities livable for a billion plus population.

PS: Ichi, my post is not just direct at you. As you can see we pretty much posted at the same time. I posted this before I even saw your post. My (frustrated) post was in response to Maratha's post.



The vast majority of people travelling on those trains dont care about safety

they care about the cheapness of it. How do you demand better services if the main criteria of the vast majority of people who use it everyday is the cheapness?

Dhim trust me. I would personally LOVE closed door trains. I dont enjoy anything about this system. But they honestly have tried a lot of things and have failed.

As i mentioned before you replace IR with private sector there is a good chance more of the lines in navi mumbai will be axed as its not profitable.

^^ ur probably right! but a better solution might be jus hive off the suburban section into another govt. division (as far away from IR as possible). That way the decision chain will change as below

Previously...

make a plan ----- send proposal to IR HQ ------ wait for 10 years for approval ------ cost overrun ------ sit on the ass thinking what to do now-------- send another proposal to HQ ------- cycle starts again...

now..


Make a plan ------ sit on it for 1-2 years ----- do the job (albeit a few years behind schedule)


Plus the new division may mean that they can call for global tenders for the train sets and finally get rid of ICF!!

^very true

thats a great idea.

I think mamata did touch on something in the similar in the budget speech

I think IMO they should try to first and foremost tackle the smaller problems like ticketing (long lines to purchase tickets for non regular travellers who dont use a monthly or seasonal pass) Increasing the length of many platforms.

So tackle stuff off the track which is feasible. then more upwards slowly.

Being in the pond called Mumbai Railways for Metro traffic does not make you an expert, neither would it equip you to solve the problems.


You need to take a trip on the Mumbai Railway before you are qualified to comment. Some of your comments are out of pure ignorance.


Nik: Don't be stuck up with existing scenarios, they are quite hopeless and retarded.

If you're not trying to solve exisiting scenarios then what are you trying to solve?


Have you seen other systems work throughout the world which are equally crowded and have solved such problems.

Mumbai Suburban Railways is the MOST densely populated railway system in the world! Nothing else compares to the amount of people traveling on 1 line. (Tokyo Metro has multiple lines)

And yes, I've seen lots of other railway systems including: NYC, Sao Paulo, Rio De Janeiro, Brasilia, Quito, Panama City, Atlanta, New Jersey, Los Angeles, Washington DC, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Mumbai, New Delhi, etc.

Here is my opinion:

1) Mumbai's Suburban Railway is extremely crowded and unsafe. We must do anything that is possible to improve the situation. I am not a supporter of Indian Railways and I don't like the situation that Mumbai commuters are in BUT I am realistic not idealistic!

2) Doors-Adding doors at this time is unrealistic. There is too much crowding. Way too many people. The only reason the trains move right now is because they spend 30 seconds at each station. If they had to wait for doors to close, these trains would never move! Realistically, this is not possible at this time. Maybe in the future, but not now.

3)Deaths- Most deaths result from people crossing tracks. What IS possible is to add high-strength fences around stations so that people are forced to take Foot Over Bridges.

4) Adding More Tracks- It is impossible to add too many more tracks. There are slums and shops and skyscrapers, stadiums, & homes along the tracks. It would take 100 years to get through all the court cases, etc. Still, they are adding tracks where possible. These are currently under construction.

5) Crowding- The only way to reduce crowding is to increase trains and make platforms longer. This has to wait until all the powerlines are converted to AC. This is being done right now. After this, the frequency will increase and crowding will decrease.

6)Privatization- This will never happen. So don't talk about it.

7)Mumbai Railways Authority- I think having a separate authority run the Mumbai Suburban Railways would be great BUT this will never happen because sooo much of the money that Indian Railways makes comes from Mumbai commuters. Indian Railways would NEVER give up control of the Mumbai Suburban Railways.



Once again my thoughts are realistic and based on experience.

Typical Indian response. Nobody wants to try new ideas instead would criticize your idea and complain about the problems they have. .


It's not that we're closed to new ideas. We are realistic Mumbaikars.


If you built railings on the platforms, they would impede movement and make it harder for people to move along the platform.


Building overhead railways is impossible because there are lots of powerlines, road bridges, and a metro crossover.


Think realistically.

Here is my opinion:

3)Deaths- Most deaths result from people crossing tracks. What IS possible is to add high-strength fences around stations so that people are forced to take Foot Over Bridges.



Ok the most deaths would be addressed, what about the other deaths? people fall of trains too, what about that? Are we going to wait for more people to die and then worry about it? As i said earlier, it is a disaster waiting to happen. With the doors there might be problems initially, but eventually it would smooth out. Why cant they have a pilot run and decide the feasibility? Just having a door is not enough, they need crowd management on the platforms, etc. What we need is a major overhaul, and not 1 or 2 changes. Otherwise we would be doing the same discussion after 10 years.

Ok the most deaths would be addressed, what about the other deaths? people fall of trains too, what about that? Are we going to wait for more people to die and then worry about it? As i said earlier, it is a disaster waiting to happen. With the doors there might be problems initially, but eventually it would smooth out. Why cant they have a pilot run and decide the feasibility? Just having a door is not enough, they need crowd management on the platforms, etc. What we need is a major overhaul, and not 1 or 2 changes. Otherwise we would be doing the same discussion after 10 years.

Most people who fall from the trains are not inside the compartment. They are outside on the windows or roof. Adding self-closing doors would do nothing for them.

People who climb on the outside windows KNOW that they might die. They still continue to do it. People who climb on the roof KNOW they might fall and die, but they still do it, so how can you stop them?

It is illegal to climb on the roof or the windows for safety reasons. If people do it and they know it is illegal and unsafe and they still do it, then it is their fault that they died.


With the doors there might be problems initially, but eventually it would smooth out.

It would never smoothen out. You don't need feasability studies to prove it. Just take a ride on the trains and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about! Tokyo has the same problem and they have not yet smoothened it out.

This discussion is turning out to be the most bizarre nonsense I have seen in a long while.

On Doors for Trains:

Just take a ride on the trains and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about

Why does anyone need to be inside a train to understand doors. Are doors much different that any normal door that you encounter in your life. This is the most absurd nonsense I have heard.

Next is the dictum:

The vast majority of people travelling on those trains dont care about safety

Yeah, like someone studied this or Gallup conducted a poll on attitudes about safety. Give me a break. I am sure a majority are concerned about safety, otherwise what is the point of living.

And this one takes the cake. In other words this paragon organization called IR tried so it is no point in others to come up with solutions. Since IR is the so-called brain bank of the world on trains... he he.

they honestly have tried a lot of things and have failed.

There is no point defending a broken outdated junky system. And to defend this to the teeth is useless and being very disingenuous.

Time to put in place a modern safe system and if people don't follow rules fine them or put them in prison. No two ways about this.

Why does anyone need to be inside a train to understand doors. Are doors much different that any normal door that you encounter in your life.


YOU NEED TO RIDE THE MUMBAI RAILWAY TO UNDERSTAND HOW CROWDED IT IS AND WHY DOORS WILL NOT WORK. WE ARE NOT RETARDED. WE KNOW WHAT DOORS ARE.

YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN ON THE MUMBAI RAILWAY, SO STOP INSISTING ON MAKING THE SAME IGNORANT SUGGESTIONS OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!

I have to agree with Niknak here. Having used the local network many times, I can vouch that it is a stupid idea to put doors or any sort of obstructions on the platform. They will turn into a hazard in the kind of super-mega-crush-load (? Not sure of the exact term) that is common.

Unless the capacity of the network is expanded substiantially, there is very little that can be done with the current hardware.

Most people who fall from the trains are not inside the compartment. They are outside on the windows or roof. Adding self-closing doors would do nothing for them.

People who climb on the outside windows KNOW that they might die. They still continue to do it. People who climb on the roof KNOW they might fall and die, but they still do it, so how can you stop them?



Of course since there are no doors and there is no deterance. There needs to be enforcement, people should be arrested and booked regularly. It is out in the open, they just need to enfore it strictly.



It would never smoothen out. You don't need feasability studies to prove it. Just take a ride on the trains and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about! Tokyo has the same problem and they have not yet smoothened it out.



Since you have mentioned it a couple of times let me get it straight. I have travelled on the Mumbai locals extensively, since the time i was a kid.

Tokyo alteast does not have people dieing in such huge numbers like us. If you check the pictures and videos Tokyo trains in rush hour and read about it, the compartments are crowded near the doors and it seems there is enough space inside the compartments. The people there do not like to move away from the doors. One more observation i have made is that in the Tokyo trains people are mute, almost not talking...In mumbai if you block the doors with out moving in even for 1/2 a second, you would get an earfull of maa-behen ki gaali. All these can be solved in various ways if there is enough brain storming done.

I strongly belive the suburban railways in Mumbai should be seperate entitity, it can have funding from the centre, but it has to break away from the IR. The decision makers need to be from here and well versed with the conditions of the system and not just some corroupt regionally biased Netas-Babus from the I.R.

@khargarboi - IMO they should start by brainstorming about how to expand the carrying capacity substiantially.

I don't think any other metro system in the world has anything on Mumbai in terms of passenger loads. Its totally insane and it probably needs very unique solutions.

YOU NEED TO RIDE THE MUMBAI RAILWAY TO UNDERSTAND HOW CROWDED IT IS AND WHY DOORS WILL NOT WORK. WE ARE NOT RETARDED. WE KNOW WHAT DOORS ARE.

YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN ON THE MUMBAI RAILWAY, SO STOP INSISTING ON MAKING THE SAME IGNORANT SUGGESTIONS OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!

You certainly sound retarded and stuck in the age old crappy piece of junk which we call local trains here. :bash: It is really foolish of you to just rubbish the suggestions people are making, are there any pilot runs done by the IR of trains with door that you have come to a conclusion? If you cant suggest anything constructive, atleast dont try to shout down people who are contributing with suggestions.

The people here have had no option but to live with door less trains all these years. But it is time for a change, do you think other suburban railways around the world are foolish to have doors. They do not have so many users alright, but they atleast have the safety aspect covered. As i said before just having doors is not going to solve the problem, it has to be done with various other things like more number of doors, less seating so that people can move inside the train quickly, crowd management, entry exit management, more frequency for the trains..and the works.

How long should we live with the crappy EMUs having an arrangement of seats which hamper smooth movement of people inside the trains? Even the new EMUs dont have these things addressed. In almost all suburban systems in the world more people are expected to stand and the trains have less seating, Here even after we being having the most crowded system, we still have more seats, even in the new emu's. Forget the old emus, they were designed in the 70's when we did not have the know-how and technology and learnings of today. Do you think we should go on like this for 10 - 20 - 30 yrs??

^He's talking about doors and you are accusing him of arguing against the interior design. That's why internet arguments suck. :ohno:

^He's talking about doors and you are accusing him of arguing against the interior design. That's why internet arguments suck. :ohno:

Doors and interiors go side by side, and if you want to change the design of the doors and implement more doors, you ought to change the interiors.

With the current crap what is called a " local " i think we all agree that auto-closing doors would not work in Mumbai.

What some of us are discussing is having auto-closing doors on a completely different kind of "compartment", which has different interiors, more doors and the works. How difficult it would be to have a pilot run with such trains? But some of us just like to rubbish suggestions by typing in caps, issuing dikhats and what not.

^I agree on the caps part.

basically people like me and Nik and MM who have travelled the system share the same opinion.

So i dont see any point in us continuing this debate, cause we go round in circles and keep recylcing the points.

let just forget the debate as we are not the decision makers.

^He's talking about doors and you are accusing him of arguing against the interior design. That's why internet arguments suck. :ohno:

Khargharboi is pointing out to traffic flows that affect crowds that clog up doors. He is right. I don't see why this is such a narrow argument.

YOU NEED TO RIDE THE MUMBAI RAILWAY TO UNDERSTAND HOW CROWDED IT IS AND WHY DOORS WILL NOT WORK. WE ARE NOT RETARDED. WE KNOW WHAT DOORS ARE.

YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN ON THE MUMBAI RAILWAY, SO STOP INSISTING ON MAKING THE SAME IGNORANT SUGGESTIONS OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!

Nik what is it with the CAPS. No amount of shouting, will make your point. You have no special insight into why doors won't work except to state that it won't as a dictum. Your statement is as ignorant as they come. And yes I have traveled Mumbai Railway though it has been ages since.

Those who keep advocating that nothing can be done are frozen in their thinking capacities. I am absolutely sure if you put a team of bright Indians to come up with a plan to solve the Mumbai Railway issues they would come up with a brilliant plan that could be a world beater. To resign yourself is the worst. This is status quo. There is no harm in trying out new ideas, at most they would be failures but we learn and move on.

The current crop of Netas and Babus are a curse for the young generation of Indians, who are dying to contribute and change their way of life for the better.

basically people like me and Nik and MM who have travelled the system share the same opinion.

So i dont see any point in us continuing this debate, cause we go round in circles and keep recylcing the points.

let just forget the debate as we are not the decision makers.




I am also DONE with this discussion.

^ relax dude :lol:

If we ever want to see real change in this city, or in this country for that matter, we NEED to, more than anything, lower our corruption and allow for new talent to have its voice heard. Then only can we reduce crowds, add doors/AC, and move on from 60 year old trains.

If the Mumbai suburban system has to be made an independent entity, what do you think can be hurdles? Has this been discussed before in the parliament ? Who would have to initiate the discussion? How will they go about it? I am just trying to understand if it is possible, if there are anyone thinks it is possible i would like to know how?

^He's talking about doors and you are accusing him of arguing against the interior design. That's why internet arguments suck. :ohno:

:lol:

If the Mumbai suburban system has to be made an independent entity, what do you think can be hurdles? Has this been discussed before in the parliament ? Who would have to initiate the discussion? How will they go about it? I am just trying to understand if it is possible, if there are anyone thinks it is possible i would like to know how?

dont its a parliamentary issue

I assume you mean Mumbai locals having their own independent division within IR

railway minister can do that. Its more of an internal administrative issue


If you mean private sector player then they will have to invite secret bids and have to accept the highest price offered.

What I don't understand is people who have used this system are actually saying that nothing can be done to improve the system. If that's how people who use the system react, why would politicians/authority care to improve their lives. In a way it is a reflection of why most things are the same as how they were 60 years ago. Hopelessness prevails.

What I don't understand is people who have used this system are actually saying that nothing can be done to improve the system. In a way it is a reflection of why most things are the same as how they were 60 years ago. Hopelessness prevails.

Cause each system, city etc has a saturation point.

Once thats crossed the fundamentals dont change.

Why would anyone wait till they reach the saturation point? The answer is because of "hopelessness". Everyone to blame for - politicians and the people.

I think what can be done is to build the Metro lines and have more 15 compartment trains on the suburban....Once the crowd is manageable, only then do doors, air conditioning etc become possible on the suburban.

Why would anyone wait till they reach the saturation point? The answer is because of "hopelessness". Everyone to blame for - politicians and the people.

you should ask that to Indian Railways cira 1970

I think what can be done is to build the Metro lines and have more 15 compartment trains on the suburban....Once the crowd is manageable, only then do doors, air conditioning etc become possible on the suburban.

problem with that is some stations like Masjid cannot be expanded to accommodate 15 compartments. Meaning the train will have to stop twice at the same station.

You will end up in a situation whereby some stations have long enough platforms and some dont.

In the past stopping twice has lead to a lot of deaths(more than usual)

Exploding population is to be blamed........................In such situations Comforts aesthetic etc take a back seat.........Having just some local transportation becomes a big thing...............

In the past stopping twice has lead to a lot of deaths(more than usual)

So what? Nobody cares about safety anyways. (BTW, this is not coming from me, someone else on the previous page claimed that).

So what? Nobody cares about safety anyways. (BTW, this is not coming from me, someone else on the previous page claimed that).

stopping twice also severely increases commuting time.

So its a double bogey.

Haha. I just realized that it was you who made that statement on page 42, "The vast majority of people travelling on those trains dont care about safety". :)

Haha. I just realized that it was you who made that statement on page 42, "The vast majority of people travelling on those trains dont care about safety". :)

they dont

niknak made the same comment.

If you see how people cross the tracks during rush hour you will also come to the same conclusion.

stopping twice also severely increases commuting time.

So its a double bogey.

Sure, but how many stations like Masjid ? My guess is not many. Most stations can be converted. Station that can't be converted, train does'nt stop there. I think this is the kind of stuff that needs to be done first and foremost. We're not even at a 100% 12-compartments.

Sure, but how many stations like Masjid ? My guess is not many. Most stations can be converted. Station that can't be converted, train does'nt stop there. I think this is the kind of stuff that needs to be done first and foremost. We're not even at a 100% 12-compartments.

hmm well 12 compartments for sure. That can be rolled across the board even in the harbour line.

I think 12 compartments are on central mainline. On harbour its still 9.

Its basically the stations in the city proper which cannot be extended. Suburbs its not much of an issue. Stations like Kanjurmarg and Bhandup can be expanded to handle 20-25 coaches.

Stations like Buyculla Sweri, cotton green etc its not possible.


Plus the problem is not just one station. double stopping means that it blocks off other fast trains wanting to arrive at the station also have to wait. Clogging up the system.





*My knowledge of western railway is not that good. My colleges were in Matunga so mostly travelled by Central. so cant comment.

^WR already has 15 coach trains that have limited stops. Stations like Grant Rd are being considered for expansion but there isnt much room in SoBo

^WR already has 15 coach trains that have limited stops. Stations like Grant Rd are being considered for expansion but there isnt much room in SoBo

hmm well I dont think they will get expanded. I have roamed in that area and its not feasible.

Maybe what they can do is run a direct to CST from the suburbs (on the eastern side)

like every stop Thane to Kurla and then CST skipping the smaller stations

I think if they run those specific routes then they can add even 20 coaches.

But i dont know it thats possible. One for the technical experts on railway to answer

Something else I would like to see in the future is perhaps a physical linking of tracks at Dadar station. This would allow for Thane-Dadar-Borivali, Churchgate-Dadar-CST, Churchgate-Dadar, Thane, and CST-Dadar Borivali services. In addition it would be nice to see such a service that ran from the Western suburbs onto the harbor line and until Panvel. All these would require building maximum 1-2 km of tracks with less transfers and therefore less crowding at stations.

Something else I would like to see in the future is perhaps a physical linking of tracks at Dadar station. This would allow for Thane-Dadar-Borivali, Churchgate-Dadar-CST, Churchgate-Dadar, Thane, and CST-Dadar Borivali services. In addition it would be nice to see such a service that ran from the Western suburbs onto the harbor line and until Panvel. All these would require building maximum 1-2 km of tracks with less transfers and therefore less crowding at stations.


wont it just be better with this to run services say from Thane to Churchgate and CST to Borivali (which should be possible anyway when the harbour line is expanded to Borivali)

?

Yeah, thats what I said. I was giving more possibilities...

What I don't understand is people who have used this system are actually saying that nothing can be done to improve the system. If that's how people who use the system react, why would politicians/authority care to improve their lives. In a way it is a reflection of why most things are the same as how they were 60 years ago. Hopelessness prevails.



People who UNDERSTAND the system are saying that nothing can be done about the closing DOORS until crowding lessens. And we have suggested ways to lessen crowding.


People who understand the selfish Indian Railways are saying that IR will never agree to separate itself from Mumbai Railways. More than 50 percent of tickets bought on Indian railways is by Mumbai commuters!! Why would IR ever give up Mumbai Railways?

Yeah, thats what I said. I was giving more possibilities...

I think people will use a metro for getting to east to west suburbs

If youre going from Malad to say Nerul, would you rather take WR to Bandra, transfer to Metro till Mankhurd then get on Harbour or take one train via Kings Circle which could possibly run with limited stops?

If youre going from Malad to say Nerul, would you rather take WR to Bandra, transfer to Metro till Mankhurd then get on Harbour or take one train via Kings Circle which could possibly run with limited stops?

hmm I think you meant get down at Wadala road and then ride till nerul *(keeping in mind harbour will expand to Borivali)

I guess that depends on train frequency.


~I dont think trains run directly from panvel till the western burbs. you have to change at Wadala road.

you know when I mean people crossing the tracks

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4012/4360846766_8d96449e99_o.jpg

many times these people get their legs caught in the tracks in the dark etc and well you can guess the rest.

I know this area, there is a FOB 5 min from this place....

hmm I think you meant get down at Wadala road and then ride till nerul *(keeping in mind harbour will expand to Borivali)

I guess that depends on train frequency.


~I dont think trains run directly from panvel till the western burbs. you have to change at Wadala road.

There are few direct trains between Andheri and panvel.

IMO, it is important to connect eastern and western suburbs first before thinking about new Bombay. The trafiic is not very high (for Bombay standards). Once Metro line 1 is done,the suburbs can attract more offices. Right now, the connectivity is a major issue. Metro along JVLR is also required.

There are few direct trains between Andheri and panvel.

IMO, it is important to connect eastern and western suburbs first before thinking about new Bombay. The trafiic is not very high (for Bombay standards). Once Metro line 1 is done,the suburbs can attract more offices. Right now, the connectivity is a major issue. Metro along JVLR is also required.

really.

well thats good then.

Bandra W skywalk. Looks decent. Some glass would add more beauty. The quality of pics is not good. night pics.

Along SV Road, just south of Bandra Talao

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5337/dsc06041g.jpg

Near Hill road / SV Road junction

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2374/dsc06040p.jpg

Wow beautiful!

skywalks looking beautiful for once! what has happened?! or did they give the crappy skywalks to poor areas and good ones to rich areas? (is bandra rich or poor or in the middle)

skywalks looking beautiful for once! what has happened?! or did they give the crappy skywalks to poor areas and good ones to rich areas? (is bandra rich or poor or in the middle)

hmm Bandra West is posh

Bandra east hmm well canr ange from middle class to poor.

so is that the case? do they have good looking skywalks in posh areas and ugly ones in non-posh areas?

so is that the case? do they have good looking skywalks in posh areas and ugly ones in non-posh areas?

hmm I personally think the mira road skywalk is also very good, Mira road being considered a cheaper part of the city.

But when again the Bhandup skywalk is not that good.


So i guess sometimes they get it right and sometimes they dont.

BTW

why are we discussing skywalks in a mumbai railway discussion thread?

because skywalks are a dispersal system from railway stations i guess

So i guess sometimes they get it right and sometimes they dont.

BTW

why are we discussing skywalks in a mumbai railway discussion thread?

Maybe different company built it? and I don't know I just posted because I saw the pics.

There were skywalk discussions in this thread, so I posted it here

Andheri East (not a posh area), is also getting similar kinda skywalk. But , have to wait to conclude as the finishing is not done

Good discussion about doors here - I think we could have got the best of both worlds if they had bought rakes with closing doors. They could have just left the doors open during peak hours or until peak loads reduced.

Or at least, have a design where they could be easily incorporated, if needed.
But, with the new rakes, they have completely foreclosed that option for the next 10-15 years.

But the locals have doors, no ? I remember folks closing doors when it rained once.

Good discussion about doors here - I think we could have got the best of both worlds if they had bought rakes with closing doors. They could have just left the doors open during peak hours or until peak loads reduced.

Or at least, have a design where they could be easily incorporated, if needed.
But, with the new rakes, they have completely foreclosed that option for the next 10-15 years.

I read an article, which said that the life of these rakes is 40 years, which means we may have to see these trains till 2050 :ohno:

Good discussion about doors here - I think we could have got the best of both worlds if they had bought rakes with closing doors. They could have just left the doors open during peak hours or until peak loads reduced.

Or at least, have a design where they could be easily incorporated, if needed.
But, with the new rakes, they have completely foreclosed that option for the next 10-15 years.

Thats a very valid point which completely didnt strike me. Someone should file a PIL and stop the manufacturing and induction of these coaches untill they start building coaches for the future.

But the locals have doors, no ? I remember folks closing doors when it rained once.

but they are manual, not automatic by the looks of it. This means that even when the rush reduces, someone will have to be there to close them! and that aint gonna happen!

but they are manual, not automatic by the looks of it. This means that even when the rush reduces, someone will have to be there to close them! and that aint gonna happen!

Oh yeah ..they're not automatic and heavy as hell, so not much incentive to close them.

mnual or automatic

even if you have the door you will need somebody to close them

In case of automatic, push the people inside for the door to close. So might as well have manual doors which are closed. You will need to hire (IMO) 1000 people just for the major stations with 12 people each at every platform.


Maybe one way out of this is to hire dozens of strong men as platform managers who basically direct the flow of people (assuming the people dont over power them). Thats the only way it will happen. Otherwise fights will break out.(Kurla where i am told the load has heavily decreased due to opening of Thane Vashi and Thane panvel lines by a friend who recently travelled).


All in all I will be very interested to see what methods the metro uses to close the doors...

^^ what i meant to say was that even if the rush reduces to a point where the doors can be closed comfortably, they wont be cuz IR is too lazy to have people there to close the doors at every station and the passengers wont give a flying f**k. If the control is with the driver, all he has to do is push one button and all the doors close. Much more chance of it happening.

Though all this depends on the premise that the rush will fall to a level where doors can be closed within the lifespan of he current rakes!

^^ what i meant to say was that even if the rush reduces to a point where the doors can be closed comfortably, they wont be cuz IR is too lazy to have people there to close the doors at every station and the passengers wont give a flying f**k. If the control is with the driver, all he has to do is push one button and all the doors close. Much more chance of it happening.

Though all this depends on the premise that the rush will fall to a level where doors can be closed within the lifespan of he current rakes!

well i am hoping by that time, IR will atleast have its own mumbai sub unit as a separate entity within the IR. The way things are even administratively its hard for the babu's in Mumbai suburban to get things done quickly even if there is a will cause of the sheer amount of paperwork and stuff involved. Having a separate division will speed decision making up atleast even though no guarantee that quality will improve.

It all depends how much the metro and monorail can absorb from the suburban. For there to be reduction.

there are so many other things which can be done. Like making sure that all long distance trains terminate at Kalyan Panvel Borivali and Thane so that they dont interfere with the suburban system as they are currently. All these stations have the space to expand into 20-25 platform junctions.(atleast Thane does)


To be honest with you dude all this discussion about the door is just the tip of the iceburg. Concentrating on the tracks and new signalling are more important.

I wish Mumbai suburban went underground at few places so that there could be a Thane - Andheri direct local that goes underground somewhere near Sion, run below BKC, Airport, Vidyanagari, and come up on western tracks.

Another link that Mumbai suburban should explore is underground connectivity starting at Thane running underground all the way till Borivali to join back on Western tracks. The services from Dombivali / Vashi / Kurla could be funneled into this link thereby efficiently connecting the western and central / eastern suburbs.

I wish Mumbai suburban went underground at few places so that there could be a Thane - Andheri direct local that goes underground somewhere near Sion, run below BKC, Airport, Vidyanagari, and come up on western tracks.

you will have mtero lines 1 and 2 for that. cannto be direct though.

Another link that Mumbai suburban should explore is underground connectivity starting at Thane running underground all the way till Borivali to join back on Western tracks. The services from Dombivali / Vashi / Kurla could be funneled into this link thereby efficiently connecting the western and central / eastern suburbs.

Thane Borivili line sounds fun but why udnerground?? they r not going underground in highly cramped areas, why would they go there?

^ Not possible, you would be going through National Park. It'll never get environmental clearance.

Guys, please be realistic. This is 2010. Underground Suburban is not happening.

Its get extremely hot and sweaty inside the locals, that is also one of the reasons why people travel on the footboard.

:delete:

Its get extremely hot and sweaty inside the locals, that is also one of the reasons why people travel on the footboard.

Yes i absolutely completely agree with you, without any doubt....thats the most important reason. also its beneficial for health, u build ur balance and muscles - and that too free of cost.

Yes i absolutely completely agree with you, without any doubt....thats the msot important reason. its enjoyable too, esp. when u get to see free nude shows...

hahahahaha

in all honesty yes air conditioned ride is needed. or atleast they need to roll out the millennium rake with more fans (not the people) than the old rakes.

Yes i absolutely completely agree with you, without any doubt....thats the most important reason. also its beneficial for health, u build ur balance and muscles - and that too free of cost.

And also helps increase Hairfall! :lol:

****

While travelling today between Dadar and Kurla on Central, i saw a lot of Signals decommissioned and rotated 90 degrees and new Signals installed ahead/after them. Also these old signals with their angled structure are perilously close to hitting the Coach Roofs. Wonder why they are left in such haphazard way?

Also, any fresh Info on Signal Spacing on the main line ?

Yes i absolutely completely agree with you, without any doubt....thats the most important reason. also its beneficial for health, u build ur balance and muscles - and that too free of cost.

good humour, but it is not funny when you are commuting to your office in a suffocated train and you are drenched in your own sweat with your shirt clinging to your body.

While travelling today between Dadar and Kurla on Central, i saw a lot of Signals decommissioned and rotated 90 degrees and new Signals installed ahead/after them. Also these old signals with their angled structure are perilously close to hitting the Coach Roofs. Wonder why they are left in such haphazard way?

So that people do not travel on roofs :D

MUMBAI, Apr 10, 2010 (Hindustan Times - McClatchy-Tribune Information Services via COMTEX) --
By June, Central Railway suburban fast trains will run faster by least two minutes because they will not be forced to halt every time an outstation train passes.

In the next two months, the CR expects to finish laying the fifth and sixth lines between Kurla and Thane stations for outstation trains starting from Kurla Terminus. "There are no problems. We expect the new lines to be completed by June," said S. Mudgerikar, chief public relations officer, CR.

"We are shifting tracks and overhead cables and laying additional lines. We will complete the work by June by holding planned mega blocks during weekends," said a senior CR official, on condition of anonymity.

The two new lines will also help run more local trains, including the 101 new services announced in the Rail Budget.

However, outstation trains starting from Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus (CST) will continue to ply on the fast line.

"It won't be feasible for trains starting from CST to ply on the new lines from Kurla. It will cause delays as the outstation trains will have to cross from track to another," said the senior CR official.

But it will be possible when the fifth and sixth lines are laid between CST and Kurla -- part of the multi-crore Mumbai Urban Transport Project (MUTP)-II, it is expected to be completed by 2014.

However, this respite for suburban commuters will be restricted up to Thane as there are only four rail tracks beyond the Thane creek.

This problem too is being fixed.

The Mumbai Rail Vikas Corporation, which is in charge of the MUTP, has called for tenders to construct a 250-metre long tunnel similar to the existing one for the fifth and sixth lines. "This tunnel is important for the entire fifth and sixth lines of MUTP. We will select the private contractor by May and work will begin after monsoon," said Prakashrao Vazalwar, chief PRO, MRVC.

The tunnel will be built at a cost Rs 6.9 crore and will be part of the Rs 80.87 crore Thane-Diva fifth and sixth lines project.

To see more of the Hindustan Times or to subscribe to the newspaper, go to

http://www.hindustantimes.com. Copyright (c) 2010, Hindustan Times, New Delhi

At which place in Mumbai are the maximum number of parallel lines ? Do not include the place very close to the stations as lines start branching out for individual platforms just before entering the stations.

What do you mean by Parallel lines? You mean the CR and the WR? If so, there's Dadar and Mahim for that and I think even Lower Parel as well.

What do you mean by Parallel lines? You mean the CR and the WR? If so, there's Dadar and Mahim for that and I think even Lower Parel as well.

I mean any railway tracks. Like we talk about 5th and 6th line between Kurla and Thane. I want to ask what is the maximum figure of this "n"th and where it is ?

You mean between Dadar and Mahim ? And how many lines/tracks ?

I mean any railway tracks. Like we talk about 5th and 6th line between Kurla and Thane. I want to ask what is the maximum figure of this "n"th and where it is ?

You mean between Dadar and Mahim ? And how many lines/tracks ?

I think it is Andheri - Khar (7 tracks) where you have 2 tracks for ADH-CST, 2 WR slow, 2 WR fast, 1 for long distance, + branching out for Bandra Terminus. There could be more at other locations, as you said near stations, (e.g. Borivli, near BCT, near CST of course, near Thane, Kalyan, etc.). So I think 7 is max. but let someone else confirm.

I mean any railway tracks. Like we talk about 5th and 6th line between Kurla and Thane. I want to ask what is the maximum figure of this "n"th and where it is ?

You mean between Dadar and Mahim ? And how many lines/tracks ?

Mahim is a junction of both central and western lines. So I am assuming that there's bound to be around 6-7 or may be more parallel lines.

What do you mean by Parallel lines? You mean the CR and the WR? If so, there's Dadar and Mahim for that and I think even Lower Parel as well.

It is from Lower Parel on CR and Elphiston Rd on WR to Matunga on CR and Matunga Rd on WR where there are the largest no of parallel tracks as both CR and WR run parallel on this section but both the WR and CR do not share the same station complex except for Dadar . 4 tracks for CR (2 slow tracks and 2 fast tracks) and 4 tracks on WR(2 slow tracks and 2 fast tracks) + some Yard and shunting tracks which divides the CR tracks from the WR tracks.

But if you want to consider sharing the same station complex then buddy_rohan is right it is on the WR from Khar to Andheri (2 tracks for harbour line + 2 slow tracks for Churchgate up and down + 2 fast tracks for Churchgate up and down shared by long distance trains + 1 addition track to Bandra Tarminus)

On the CR the largest no of tracks running parallely but not close to a station is between Diva and Dombivali . (2 slow CST up and down + 2 fast CST up and down shared with long distance trains and 2 tracks for Vasai Rd on WR )

It is from Lower Parel on CR....Vasai Rd on WR )

That's what I thought. I remember that there was a bridge for the train after Lower Parel or Elphinstone Road to go to the harbor lines.

It is from Lower Parel on CR and Elphiston Rd on WR to Matunga on CR and Matunga Rd on WR where there are the largest no of parallel tracks as both CR and WR run parallel on this section but both the WR and CR do not share the same station complex except for Dadar . 4 tracks for CR (2 slow tracks and 2 fast tracks) and 4 tracks on WR(2 slow tracks and 2 fast tracks) + some Yard and shunting tracks which divides the CR tracks from the WR tracks.

But if you want to consider sharing the same station complex then buddy_rohan is right it is on the WR from Khar to Andheri (2 tracks for harbour line + 2 slow tracks for Churchgate up and down + 2 fast tracks for Churchgate up and down shared by long distance trains + 1 addition track to Bandra Tarminus)

On the CR the largest no of tracks running parallely but not close to a station is between Diva and Dombivali . (2 slow CST up and down + 2 fast CST up and down shared with long distance trains and 2 tracks for Vasai Rd on WR )

Elphinston-Dadar has max. no. of tracks in parallel but as you said, thats coz two separate lines (CR & WR) come together at Dadar. We can say that for ADH-Khar section also as Harbour line comes in parallel with WR. but this one is a much longer section and HL tracks are shared by WR trains too. Also the additional 7th track for long distcance runs throughout and it diverges and braches off only before Khar for BDTS.


Also, Lower Parel is on WR not CR. its Parel on CR

That's what I thought. I remember that there was a bridge for the train after Lower Parel or Elphinstone Road to go to the harbor lines.

theres no such bridge after lower parel or elphinstone!! (except a pedestrian bridge)

Mahim is a junction of both central and western lines. So I am assuming that there's bound to be around 6-7 or may be more parallel lines.

mahim has 6 tracks (2 HL, 2 WR fast & 2 WR slow) but the 2 HL tracks diverge off immediately after the station.

theres no such bridge after lower parel or elphinstone!! (except a pedestrian bridge)

Don't exactly remember where it is, it's been a while for me, but its where the trains go over the bridge to go to the harbor line. But as you mentioned in your above post, it is probably Mahim.

It's after bandra .... Right by Gemini gaiety galaxy

I guess it is Kalyan on central railway where there are about 8 - 10 active tracks and then there are many others going to carshed, shunting tracks and freight shed.

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=19.2333634&lon=73.1279558&z=17&l=0&m=s

I guess it is Kalyan on central railway where there are about 8 - 10 active tracks and then there are many others going to carshed, shunting tracks and freight shed.

These additional tracks emerge just before stations or carsheds, that's why I asked not to include such places. Include only those sections which have continuous parallel tracks for at least few kms.

It's after bandra .... Right by Gemini gaiety galaxy

yeah its between bandra and khar.

i remember when i a kid, i didnt know about harbour line or CR. I thought all trains on WR go to churchgate and those are the only local trains of mumbai. I accidentally took a VT bound train from Santacruz which crossed over that bridge after khar, this was when i first noticed that bridge and was utterly confused when i crossed the most wierd places on earth (for me at that time) like sewri, dockyard road, sandhurst. :)

BTW wasn't there supposed to be a station coming up between Goregaon and Jogeshwari?

BTW wasn't there supposed to be a station coming up between Goregaon and Jogeshwari?

you sure on that?

they are like 2 km from each other.

Yeah. I know, I thought there was a station was coming up between the two since the distance was long between the two. Or was it just my imagination?

Yeah. I know, I thought there was a station was coming up between the two since the distance was long between the two. Or was it just my imagination?

Just a wet dream! :cheers:

There was a new station coming up at Oshiwara. Are you talking about that ?

There was a new station coming up at Oshiwara. Are you talking about that ?

really?

first i am hearing of it

really?

first i am hearing of it

:rofl: Shame on you, you are a resident.

This station has been in news since almost a decade (or even more). See these articles.

Railway station to come up at Oshiwara (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1323745729.cms) (Jan 2002)

Construction of ROBs delay Oshiwara station by 2 yrs (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/construction-of-robs-delay-oshiwara-station-by-2-yrs/250232/) (Dec 2007)

Oshiwara station idea dropped to keep project deadline (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/oshiwarastationideadroppedtokeepprojec/597268/) (March 30, 2010)

I have myself read about this station so many times in this thread.

lol what can i say

it skipped my mind.

it would have to be located between jogeshwari and Goregaon. (what bhargav was referring to) so I guess its not a wet dream after all eh niknak :P

There was a new station coming up at Oshiwara. Are you talking about that ?

Yup. That's exactly what it was.

Oshiwara station will be there in coming future between Goregaon and Jogeshwari. Slow trains will stop on this station. I am trying to get information on that whether this station will be there on the extended Harbour Line or not? As there is project going on extension of HL from Andheri to Goregaon will CR think about Oshiwara or not that yet not been known.
Another point is that Oshiwara station will be there on the 'Dahisar-Charkop-Mankhurd' metro line. The distance betwwen the mero and railway station will be around one Km.

Oshiwara station will be there in coming future between Goregaon and Jogeshwari. Slow trains will stop on this station. I am trying to get information on that whether this station will be there on the extended Harbour Line or not? As there is project going on extension of HL from Andheri to Goregaon will CR think about Oshiwara or not that yet not been known.
Another point is that Oshiwara station will be there on the 'Dahisar-Charkop-Mankhurd' metro line. The distance betwwen the mero and railway station will be around one Km.

When they talk of extension of Harbour line, are they gonna lay additional tracks only for HL beyond andheri or is that covered under some MUTP extra tracks project? there could be two options:
- either open (destroy!) the current ADH terminus on the West of station and extend from there. That would mean a lot of chaos at andheri as the current terminus is literally in line with office buldings and staircases.
- or are they gonna re-direct HL trains to WR slow tracks after bandra or khar or santacruz or vileparle and use the existing HL tracks and andheri terminus for WR trains terminating at Andheri only. The Bandra-Khar HL bridge does have the option of entering WR tracks on both sides isnt it?

somehow, i dont see HL extension happening soon..

I think they are laying additional pair of tracks for extension of HL towards Goregaon.

I think they are laying additional pair of tracks for extension of HL towards Goregaon.

Abhi, have you ever been to Mumbai ? :)

Abhi, have you ever been to Mumbai ? :)

No. But I have been to Maha (Pune) for 6 days :)

^^I think they are laying additional pair of tracks for extension of HL towards Goregaon.


yes they are.......

The master plan is to extend it to Borivali

^^


yes they are.......

The master plan is to extend it to Borivali

These tracks will be exclusive for HL or it will be shared with WR. Second option will make WR more flexible and less crowded.

These tracks will be exclusive for HL or it will be shared with WR. Second option will make WR more flexible and less crowded.

think they are exclusive, but not sure....

These tracks will be exclusive for HL or it will be shared with WR. Second option will make WR more flexible and less crowded.

Actually, Abhi, wherever the harbor line runs parallel to the western line so far, it runs on separate tracks and shares the same stations. I think the first option is the better option since new lines will ensure that harbor line trains will not reduce the frequency of western line trains (which already run at 2-3x capacity) as would be the case with Option 2. Option 1 will still use the same stations and will thus offer the flexibility and load sharing that you desire.

Well if they're making a station there for WR, might as well for the HL. One thing that is of concern though is that there are hardly any major roads leading to the proposed station area, so I wonder if they've planned for the increase in vehicular traffic in that area. Additionally, there is a phatak near there as well which will contribute to increased traffic.

what i dont understand is why is there a need for a station in a distance of 2km between station?

Isnt that a waste of money?

Actually, Abhi, wherever the harbor line runs parallel to the western line so far, it runs on separate tracks and shares the same stations. I think the first option is the better option since new lines will ensure that harbor line trains will not reduce the frequency of western line trains (which already run at 2-3x capacity) as would be the case with Option 2. Option 1 will still use the same stations and will thus offer the flexibility and load sharing that you desire.

I am not talking about sharing of WR tracks with HL but opposite. WR can keep its tracks exclusively for itself and can run extra service on HL's tracks (if HL's tracks are under-used).

Or maybe bunch slow services of both WR and HL on one pair of tracks and fast services of both on other pair. Maybe that can increase the efficiency of the system as a whole ?

The population of the area between Jogeshwari & Goregaon is huge, and it takes quite sometime via road from Oshiwara proper to either of these stations, so it is kinda necessary for the residents. It's ironic though that this station would not be anywhere near what is Oshiwara proper. That area is on the Charkop-Mankhurd line though.

Also, I think the distance between the stations is larger than that, more like 4 km, from the time it takes to cover that distance!

I am talking about sharing of WR tracks with HL but opposite. WR can keep its tracks exclusively for itself and can run extra service on HL's tracks (if HL's tracks are under-used).

Or maybe bunch slow services of both WR and HL on one pair of tracks and fast services of both on other pair. Maybe that can increase the efficiency of the system as a whole ?

Sure, if its possible, that might help. I'm telling you though, if you have a dedicated harbor line running up all the way to Borivali, the trains would be filled to capacity.

The population of the area between Jogeshwari & Goregaon is huge, and it takes quite sometime via road from Oshiwara proper to either of these stations, so it is kinda necessary for the residents. It's ironic though that this station would not be anywhere near what is Oshiwara proper. That area is on the Charkop-Mankhurd line though.

Also, I think the distance between the stations is larger than that, more like 4 km, from the time it takes to cover that distance!

If I'm not mistaken the distance between Goregaon and Jogeshwari stations is the greatest distance between any two stations on the Western line (from Churchgate to Borivali)

hmm so how will they go about fitting the station in?

from google maps I dont see much space to expand. a lot of buildings will need to be torn down

IMO maybe for now best to wait for a metro station.

hmm so how will they go about fitting the station in?

from google maps I dont see much space to expand. a lot of buildings will need to be torn down

IMO maybe for now best to wait for a metro station.

I think theres enough room there to make a station. Why is there going to be a Metro station anywhere near that ? The metro will use the link road, na ?

If I'm not mistaken the distance between Goregaon and Jogeshwari stations is the greatest distance between any two stations on the Western line (from Churchgate to Borivali)

I just measured it on Google earth. It is 3.15 km.

I think theres enough room there to make a station. Why is there going to be a Metro station anywhere near that ? The metro will use the link road, na ?

hmm true enough i guess.

how many platforms you think can be accommodated at that station with the space there?

Ya the metro once it comes up will be near the Link Rd., but he means once a metro stn comes up for the ppl of Oshiwara to use. It's not anywhere near this proposed station as you said.

There is a railway yard of some sort parallel to the tracks on the East side, and so a lot of the land there will belong to the railways, so there shud be space as also the permissions to use that space.

Ya the metro once it comes up will be near the Link Rd., but he means once a metro stn comes up for the ppl of Oshiwara to use. It's not anywhere near this proposed station as you said.

There is a railway yard of some sort parallel to the tracks on the East side, and so a lot of the land there will belong to the railways, so there shud be space as also the permissions to use that space.

Yup. Got it :)

BTW...welcome to SSCi :)

If we are travelling from Andheri to Borivali in slow train (Obiviously on slow track), then watch at left side. For this we should be facing towards Borivali.
There we can see the levling work is going on. This type of work takes place prior to laying new tracks. So HL will lay its own pair of track up to Goregaon. And in future they have plan to extend it towards Borivali.

I am not talking about sharing of WR tracks with HL but opposite. WR can keep its tracks exclusively for itself and can run extra service on HL's tracks (if HL's tracks are under-used).

abhi, WR have tracks exclusively for them. in fact, they already run extra WR services (mostly Churchgate-Andheri terminating slow locals) using HL tracks after bandra as HL tracks are under used.

Or maybe bunch slow services of both WR and HL on one pair of tracks and fast services of both on other pair. Maybe that can increase the efficiency of the system as a whole ?

HL do not run fast services. This is mainly because there is only 1 pair of tracks all the way to CST. Moreover, more HL trains from Navi Mumbai join at Wadala junction, so Wadala-CST section is packed. beacause of this diverging at Wadala, frequency of HL trains on Andher-Wadala is halved and hence HL tracks are underused on the WR section. HL can have fast services only by laying additional pair of tracks (at least Wadala-CST). Even if they run HL fast, there will be operational difficulties between Khar and bandra coz of the HL bridge and the need to go to the HL side (East) of bandra (which is opposite in case of andheri to khar).

for extending HL to borivli, option 1 is definitely better as u get segregated tracks for HL. as indtrans said, they are already doing some levelling work for additional tracks, so that answers my question. they are indeed extending it, my worry was how are gonna do it at andheri? wont it be difficult to join up Borivli-Andheri section with Andheri -Khar section at Andheri station? if someone knows Andheri station well, he will be able to understand what i mean. hence, i proposed the second option, but obviously it affects capacity adversely.

@ Rohan,
I know that there is question that how Railway authority is going ot deal with extnesion of HL at Andheri. But if we go to ask this to anybody from railways then I don't think that we will get answer. Only the coming future will tell us the answer when actually it will take place.

Oshiwara station is in news for more than a decade. With IR at the helm, I dont see that happening in the next 10 years. And, once the metro comes up, I dont see that really useful.

Thanks....been reading for too long w/o posting so time I joined in. Andheri is in general a mess already as far as traffic in and around the station is concerned and also the convergence of multiple lines come the metro.

If the proposed metro line (phase 3) comes up as planned, I think Andheri would be an even bigger mess. I frankly don't see how they can get all these lines to converge if none of them are underground

Guys found some contact details of people in the Mumbai rail vikas corpration. Someone should proberbly mail the link to this discussion to these guys one of these days!!

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6780/rail.jpg

Link to the website http://203.176.113.182/MRVC/intr.html ..dont miss the yesterday's memories, todays lifeline and tommorows technology :)

Guys found some contact details of people in the Mumbai rail vikas corpration. Someone should proberbly mail the link to this discussion to these guys one of these days!!

Do not mail the link to this discussion. Most of the times we are abusing them, they will get pissed off :laugh:. Rather just mail your suggestion to them.

Do not mail the link to this discussion. Most of the times we are abusing them, they will get pissed off :laugh:. Rather just mail your suggestion to them.

The idea is to piss them off so that they atleast do somthing, i am sure sooner or later they are going to come across these discussions. Hopefully these babus must have some amount of selfrespect left and they should get off their lethargic a$$es and take some decisions and put in place a modern and safe system.

I dont know whom are they trying to fool by putting pictures of trains with doors on their websites. Obviously these are manual doors and remain open all the time. :bash:

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/856/rail3.jpg

it looks better without those hideous doors..

lol yesterdays memory and todays life line is the same thing

^^^

Even with tomorrow's technology, its the same thing.

Their idea of tomorrow's technology is one shade better than the previous junk. Are these guys in some time warp. The Purple train is an exercise in disaster design, same old central public works dept mentality. The front design is a sham, lights sticking out, rubber molding sticking out, front bumper and underskirt is circa 60,70 design, doors and windows are designs that modern railways had in the 80s. Time to retire the entire bunch of jokers who infest IR design and execution.

Well, the trains' design could have been better. But due to the population, I think they went for a cheap ass design. I don't blame the Siemens company at all. Because they built what the asked for. Our babus definitely lack future sight of a good looking train with better infrastructure and that's not gonna get over real soon.

hmm from what i know these trains also have a higher average speed

am i right?

Yeah the new trains seem to accelerate faster, not sure of the numbers.The suspension is also a step ahead. But we do not need baby steps, there has to be a giant leap. When they are spending money to design something new, why not have something which has better ergonomics, safety.. i am not even talking about comfort. why give people this piece of junk.

lol yesterdays memory and todays life line is the same thing


haha true dat!

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Web/HTMumbai/Article/2010/04/19/002/19_04_2010_002_002.jpg

I say let the politicians travel in these trains in rush hours.

I say burn the politicians at the stake and have them replaced by new, intelligent, uncorrupted, talented leaders.

Look horrible , so crowded

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Web/HTMumbai/Article/2010/04/19/002/19_04_2010_002_002.jpg

must say Mulund and Thane are never this bad...

Dadar no surprises....

must say Mulund and Thane are never this bad...

Dadar no surprises....

Thane is almost 80% same during the peak hrs. I travel on the Thane vashi and thane nerul trains at around 8:30 am - 9am and 8:30 pm - 9pm. Getting on the FOB on the paltforms is such tough task, there is absolutly no place to breathe. It is so damn polluted outside the station due to autorikshaws under the flyover. However it is not crowded much during the off peak hrs.

Thane is almost 80% same during the peak hrs. I travel on the Thane vashi and thane nerul trains at around 8:30 am - 9am and 8:30 pm - 9pm. Getting on the FOB on the paltforms is such tough task, there is absolutly no place to breathe. It is so damn polluted outside the station due to autorikshaws under the flyover. However it is not crowded much during the off peak hrs.

yeah thats my point

80% full,

these pics makes me think that they are 150% full

agree about the pollution outside the station. But thats not really the fault of the station. You have the option of the bus with the SATIS

the advantage thane has is that in rush hour every 5 min in rush hour a train which originates from Thane is there. Which means its an empty train with free seats. I actually travelled from Mulund to thane and then caught a train originating from Thane to Matunga many times a few years ago.

yeah thats my point

80% full,

these pics makes me think that they are 150% full

agree about the pollution outside the station. But thats not really the fault of the station. You have the option of the bus with the SATIS

the advantage thane has is that in rush hour every 5 min in rush hour a train which originates from Thane is there. Which means its an empty train with free seats. I actually travelled from Mulund to thane and then caught a train originating from Thane to Matunga many times a few years ago.

The journey from Kharghar to Thane is smooth, but once you reach Thane it is utter chaos. They should have some huge exhaust fans under the flyover to suck out the polluted air from under it. I mostly prefer to ride to work these days, if i travel by train + bus or train + rikshaw i almost end up looking in shambles by the time i reach office. I wish TMT comes out with comfertable a/c bus services from the station. Arent they building the skybus near the station?

The journey from Kharghar to Thane is smooth, but once you reach Thane it is utter chaos. They should have some huge exhaust fans under the flyover to suck out the polluted air from under it. I mostly prefer to ride to work these days, if i travel by train + bus or train + rikshaw i almost end up looking in shambles by the time i reach office. I wish TMT comes out with comfertable a/c bus services from the station. Arent they building the skybus near the station?

Ride what ?

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/856/rail3.jpg

"Tomorrow's Technology". :hilarious

It should rather be - Mughal era's memories, world war era lifeline and soviet era's technology.

Ride what ?

My puny engined crotch rocket, my motorbike. Thane-Belapur road - Airoli bridge - EEH makes travelling much quicker.

It should rather be - Mughal era's memories, world war era lifeline and soviet era's technology.

:lol: :master:

It should rather be - Mughal era's memories, world war era lifeline and soviet era's technology.
nice nice...

Why couldn't they have bought rakes with seats that are parallel to the windows for higher standing capacity like this:

http://www.tokyohostelskyoto.com/hostel_tokyo/photos/tokyo-metro.jpg

This arrangement probably costs less since less seats have to be made.

^
thats actually a very good point

In the new rakes they should have got rid of the seats barrings ones parallel to the window and also axed the sort of separator between the passage to get off and the seating area.

You could have easily increased capacity significantly with ease and would have cost a lot less space.

also would have cost much less money.

One way to increase capacity maybe during rush hour is to have all standing trains.

In some trains in Japan they have folding seats. Seats are longitudinal as in this pic and during rush hours, they are automatically folded up to the walls to create more standing space :O

They were considering adding parallel seats and also having no seats on some coaches just for peak hour use... don't know what happened with that plan!

It makes so much more sense to have seats parallel to windows.

i agree with having parellel seating, i.e minimal seating. This would also ensure free flow of people in inside the compartment along with slightly increasing the capacity.

How many of you agree that there should be a seperate 1st class in suburban trains? Maybe the 1st class can retain the current seating structure.

i agree with having parellel seating, i.e minimal seating. This would also ensure free flow of people in inside the compartment along with slightly increasing the capacity.

How many of you agree that there should be a seperate 1st class in suburban trains? Maybe the 1st class can retain the current seating structure.

well even first class is crowded.....so does not make sense. Maybe add extra fans in first class to somewhat justify the price lol.



Abhi the folding seats will be just broken easily as Mumbaikars are rough users.

They should defiantly have coaches with no seats!!! :bash:The new EMUs are a total buzz kill. IR obviously put no thought when ordering them. These wide-body rakes have cavernous interiors but their space is squandered by poor planning. Also notice the revenue generating ad panel on the ceiling of the tokyo rake.

is it possible to take them out now? At least on select routes?