The Irish political thread is really 'The Constitutional Question' Thread, hence my starting this one.

Nothing gets my back up more than our pathetic excuse for public representatives. We've learnt over the last 48 hours that after 5 months of fucking about our elected politicians in the executive are friends again. This has been during, quite frankly the most eventful 5 months in living memory.

As the world reels from the collapse of credit and crisis in free market economics, as the US elects an utterly transformational canditate, not to mention the first African American, what do our polticians do but sit on their fat bloated asses? Do they think NI is somehow detached from all this? They are the ultimate embodiment of Harold McMillan's famous 'spongers' speech and a complete disgrace to the people of Northern Ireland.

Yes I know we (well not me) vote for them, and we get the politicians we deserve but the status quo is maintained by the extremist parties keeping their constituencies distrustful of the other. Its classic fear politics and completely paralysing.

I look forward to the day when a new generation replace these dinosaurs. The Troubles ended years ago, its now ancient history.

So move on you bunch of spoilt, overpaid, underqualified bottom feeders and do some bloody work.

And remember a few years ago when they first met their first legislation was a payrise. Then they closed parliament. What a bunch of cunts. I know some of the parties tithe their members, but even with this the public are looking at these fuckers getting fat off the gravy train and they are disgusted. Unfortunately they are able to silence all opposition by simply saying "it was the taigs what dunnit" or "blame the huns".

The Irish political thread is really 'The Constitutional Question' Thread, hence my starting this one.

Nothing gets my back up more than our pathetic excuse for public representatives. We've learnt over the last 48 hours that after 5 months of fucking about our elected politicians in the executive are friends again. This has been during, quite frankly the most eventful 5 months in living memory.

As the world reels from the collapse of credit and crisis in free market economics, as the US elects an utterly transformational canditate, not to mention the first African American, what do our polticians do but sit on their fat bloated asses? Do they think NI is somehow detached from all this? They are the ultimate embodiment of Harold McMillan's famous 'spongers' speech and a complete disgrace to the people of Northern Ireland.

Yes I know we (well not me) vote for them, and we get the politicians we deserve but the status quo is maintained by the extremist parties keeping their constituencies distrustful of the other. Its classic fear politics and completely paralysing.

I look forward to the day when a new generation replace these dinosaurs. The Troubles ended years ago, its now ancient history.

So move on you bunch of spoilt, overpaid, underqualified bottom feeders and do some bloody work.

Nice rant

+1

I have to be honest I dont know much about this as any time the North is on the news I reach for the remote. I have heard something about 'suspensions' 'DUP' 'Sinn Fein' etc etc....the usual.

How much are they paid anyway?

I call the MLAs the Do Nothings. I never vote now, because it's a joke and a farce. I refer to them as MDNA's ie Members of the Do Nothing Assembly.

Politicians, politicians - perfection will never be reached in this world order. Every country has the same political criticism from the public. New leaders are popular until the public tire of them, then they hate them, Tony Blair, Gordon, Sir Winston etc. As for here devolution waste of money waste of time, however when a gun is put to your head then there is no alternative. I suppose the only good thing having terrorists in government is that we look even more ridiculous than what we are. As for the dinosaurs dissappearing, the anti-British and anti-irish grouping will remain here for sometime probably until we are in the Chinese empire, however 400 years after Chinese rule we will go back to our old ways. Peace, crime free streets etc only exist in the mind, the reality is that until this world order ends, one has to put the blinkers on and cruise as best as one can to the wooden/cardboard box.

Well...as long as the people of Northern keep voting for the same people then nothing is going to change now is it.

I vote for Alliance, as I think they are the only ones that actually exist in the real world and if they have more support then things would get done a hell of a lot quicker.


The current administration is a total and utter waste of money and time. We need proper politicians running this country, not relics from the Troubles.


No one to blame but ourselves, you want change, they vote for someone fresh and new.

Labour, conserative should set up here and give us real politics.

Yes there should be proper Left-Right politics. The whole set up as it is is a complete paradox. There are plenty of middle class catholics who would be right of centre and therefore technically more aligned to the views of the UUP or even DUP. Likewise many working class protestants would find Sinn Fein's policies more aligned to their own.

None of that is going to happen until the bulk of people in NI get over the shackles of their tribalist history.

I agree with Belfastuniguy. People should vote Alliance, not necessarily to provide a mandate for their policies, but as a rejection of tribalist politics. The tempetation to disengage from local politics, and not vote is massive for any half educated, rational person.

Unfortunately for us these morons are the people who, on our behalf, meet US presidents and other foreign bigwigs such as Michael Bloomberg. And this affects us all, as its from this sort of activity that we receive investment, increase tourism etc.

So, next time, vote Alliance.

Sinn Fein arent that left wing nowadays. Now they are in power they are much more interested in acting like MOPES rather than trying to improve bread & butter issues. I'd say the PUP is the most left wing party. Sinn Fein's link with the working class is weakening over time. They got a real telling off in the Andytown news earlier on in the year after bap kennedy was beaten to death in his home, almost going as far as blaming Gerry Adams for West belfast's hoodrat problem

I wonder what will happen to Sinn Fein when Fianna Fail organises in the North? The two wont co exist. I reckon Sinn Fein will be mopped up - probrably the SDLP too.

Is fianna fail like the Irish version of the tory party? I dont know much about them but I've always assumed they were quite old fashioned, out of touch. And with their history of corruption would they really be that popular up north?

Is fianna fail like the Irish version of the tory party? I dont know much about them but I've always assumed they were quite old fashioned, out of touch. And with their history of corruption would they really be that popular up north?

Old Fashioned - no, esspecially when it comes to parties in the North.

Out of Touch - yes. They have been in Government for 13 years - of course they are out of touch. They probrably wont be in much longer....

Would they be popular - yes I think so amongst Nationalists anyway. They seem able to be all things to all people which is pretty unique. Only problem with that is they fail to challenge vested interest alot of the time. Fianna Fail are more often then not vulnerable to the charge of corruption. Things like Ian Pasley jnrs dodgy practices in the DUP a year or two back pop up now and again. A bit like the UK Labour party.

Faina Fail are the irish tory party and although sinn fein are no longer "left-wing" they are popular up here because of their past socialist leanings. This is the fundamental difference between southerners and northerners. We are the industrialised part of ireland historically, we have more socialist views and although the south has marched ahead in terms of development, jesus we do not wish to have your version of things which Faina Fail would bring. One of the nails in the SDLP's coffin was their talks with fainna fail a while back. People up here generally enjoy the political devision of the island even those who profess to want unity. Sinn Fein are not an all ireland party and if they were they would have to fight up here under one banner and down south under another banner... we are very seperate and have been long before the border was drawn in the 20's. I am no unionist but we are so different in the North when compared to the tory south.

I dont think so. I certainly think the South is more Capitalist by a long way and is generally more ruthless with those who dont pull their weight however the people in the North will change their views towards that with wealth. That may take some years but it will happen. Socialism is dead.

I think the Republic is creating what I would term a type of 'Social Capitalism' that really has to be extended to the North at some point.

Socialism is dead? Until September I was as much a free market capitalist subscriber as any Wall Street trader. Now I'm reading Marx's Das Kapital.

The South in no way has a version of 'Social Capitalism'. France probably, the UK maybe. The Republic of Ireland? Definitely not.

But the credit crunch has little effect on the North compared to elsewhere because you depend on public sector employment that you dont have to pay for - easy to be socialist under circumstances where you can screw things up no end and someone bails you out.......

But the credit crunch has little effect on the North compared to elsewhere because you depend on public sector employment that you dont have to pay for - easy to be socialist under circumstances where you can screw things up no end and someone bails you out.......

You mean just like your Banks being bailed out by the state....

We have to pay for that - that is the difference. No country is bailing us out. Anyone offer to bail you out? No. Yet NI gets bailed out by UK taxpayers every single year by a hugely disproportionate sum. That is to maintain unproductive jobs. Granted things are starting to change but it will take years. Hence I think the attitude will gradually change.

My point is it is easy to be socialist when, in reality, you dont have much responsibility.

We Yet NI gets bailed out by UK taxpayers every single year by a hugely disproportionate sum.

But the people of NI are UK taxpayers because NI is part of the UK, something i know which seems to bother you.

Who are you to say what is a 'hugely disproportionate sum'?....its no more any of your business, than it is of mine to say which parts of the ROI receives more money than other parts.

We all know why NI has so many 'state jobs', because for 30 years maniacs were blowing each other up....what business is going to come to NI under such circumstances.

its no more any of your business, than it is of mine to say which parts of the ROI receives more money than other parts.




Your wrong there - it is our business since we are paying for certain infrastructure. You obviously don't understand how much the North today costs to upkeep. Look it up.

Your wrong there - it is our business since we are paying for certain infrastructure. You obviously don't understand how much the North today costs to upkeep. Look it up.

You really are a Patronising, smug little twat.

The only money your putting in, is because your government deems it to be in their interests to do so, no one is forcing you to do it.

If it bothers you, take it up with them, but dont imagine for one minute, it gives you the right to any say in the way NI is run.

If you want that right, you have to take the whole thing on, but i dont see the people of NI voting for that any time soon...which i know pisses you off, but thats the way it is.

You avoid answering questions and keep going off on a tangent. I dont think you have answered a single question ever put to you on this forum?

I'm not sure what your position is here Odlum.

First of all you state your capitalism is more "ruthless". So how can you be developing a form of "Social Capitalism"? Is the RoI creating a welfare state and universal health serivice similar to the UK?

I assume your comment about "screwing things up until someone bails you out" as Socialist was either sarcastic or betraying your own socialist views since you support your own Government's bail out of Irish banks that have evidently been screwing things up.

I'm not sure what your position is here Odlum.

First of all you state your capitalism is more "ruthless". So how can you be developing a form of "Social Capitalism"? Is the RoI creating a welfare state and universal health serivice similar to the UK?

I assume your comment about "screwing things up until someone bails you out" as Socialist was either sarcastic or betraying your own socialist views since you support your own Government's bail out of Irish banks that have evidently been screwing things up.



That is not socialism. It may be an element of socialism - but it is a necessity - the US, hardly a mecca of socialist activity is doing the exact same thing. In Britain they are doing the exact same thing. In many Western Countries they have had to intervene. The difference is this is temporary. Being socialist, in the strict sense, is something altogether different and implies a future based on Marxist ideoleogy. It is, by it's nature, not a wealth creating ideoleogy. It destroys initiative and it creates a society of enititlement.

Just for the record, I'm not a socialist in the Soviet sense, that died nearly twenty years ago. Money makes the world go round, not arguing with that.

Absolutism is, in my opinion always to be avoided. The lessons of 2008 surely are that unregulated capitalism ends up feeding on itself and destroys wealth, rather than creates it. Now my understanding of socialism is that its central tenet advocates ownership and distribution of goods and services by the state. To save capitalism from itself, our governments have all had to intervene in a very socialist way.

Progress, therefore depends on capitalism's stimulus to drive, innovation and competition, but also socialism's provision of the safety net when it all goes tits up (whether that be for an individual or a bank). The important thing for a state to do is to get the right balance.

Just to get back on to the RoI. It is in no way an example of a form of 'social capitalism'.

It is in no way an example of a form of 'social capitalism'.


How so? It has all the services required. What system do you think it is if you disagree?

Been far too quiet in here...

how about people express their views on this :) I fully intend to.


Ruane reveals transfer guidelines

Education Minister Caitríona Ruane reveals her plan for the transfer of post-primary pupils.

Education Minister Caitríona Ruane has issued guidelines on the transfer of pupils from primary schools from 2010.

Last week, she failed to get the Executive to approve a phasing out of academic selection.

Her new guidelines tell schools they should not use academic selection and list criteria which oversubscribed schools should use to choose pupils.

However, it is understood the guidelines are advisory rather than legally enforceable.

That means schools must take the guidelines into account but they are free to decide not to use them.

Ms Ruane told the assembly: "The time to act has arrived.


In the absence of political agreement I have a duty to act and let parents, children and teachers know how Transfer 2010 will operate
Caitríona Ruane

"Over the past 16 months I have reflected long and hard on the wide range of views put to me.

"On two occasions, the Executive has refused to discuss my proposals for new transfer arrangements.

"Proposals which are based on a position of compromise and are attempts to introduce equality into an outdated education system.

"In the absence of political agreement, I have a duty to act and let parents, children and teachers know how Transfer 2010 will operate."

Ms Ruane said she wants schools, as a top priority, to select a proportion of pupils who are entitled to free school meals.

Traditionally, grammar schools have a low number of pupils in that category.

The list of criteria is similar to that already being used by secondary and primary schools namely attendance at a feeder primary school, living in the parish or in a catchment area, being the eldest child or having a brother or sister at the school.

The minister said she would withdraw orders that the exams body should produce a new test for selection.

She said she hoped grammar schools would choose to stop academic selection. Many grammar schools have said they will run their own admission tests.

Unionist MLAs have challenged the minister on the legal advice she received before issuing the guidelines.

'Nothing new'

SDLP education spokesman Dominic Bradley said Ms Ruane's guidelines would do "little or nothing" to help parents, pupils or teachers.

"There is nothing new in what the minister told the assembly. All she has done is reiterated the current transfer system for non-selective schools," he said.

"They will do nothing to help avoid the totally unregulated system which will simply fill the vacuum she has left."

Ulster Unionists Sir Reg Empey and Michael McGimpsey said Ms Rusane had failed to bring any meaningful proposals before the Executive.

"She has also arbitrarily rejected the frequently expressed view of the Northern Ireland Assembly," they said.

"Now parents, children and teachers across Northern Ireland face the disaster of a chaotic, unregulated transfer system."

Alliance education spokesman Trevor Lunn said the minister's statement offered little clarity.

"The Minister and the DUP have had well over a year and a half to sort this crisis out," he said.

"They have failed to do so and must now take responsibility for this chaos."


Assembly failing education test

Jim Fitzpatrick

By Jim Fitzpatrick
BBC NI Politics Show

Caitriona Ruane
Caitriona Ruane has faced criticism over her handling of the transfer issue

Anarchy, almost by definition, is never intentional.

Perhaps that explains the current mess that masquerades as a policy for post-primary transfer.

The education minister abolished the 11-Plus. But the grammar schools have brought it back. The minister warned of dire legal consequences, the non-denominational grammars said "so sue me".

The Catholic Church decreed that academic selection was morally wrong. But the Catholic head teachers in grammars have universally chosen to continue with selection based on academic ability. Never mind the judicial reviews faced by their non-catholic counterparts, these guys are risking the last judgement.

Meanwhile, the pupils and their parents are left confused and angry as they try to negotiate a system that's making it up as it goes along.

Down to Business

After their five-month standoff ended in December, the DUP and Sinn Fein promised to get down to business on all unresolved issues. Martin McGuinness said agreement on education would be a "top priority" for 2009.

"There is a challenge to the DUP and Sinn Fein to find a way forward on education to ensure that all of our children can reach their full potential," the deputy first minister said.

Well, January isn't over and already one well-intentioned resolution has bitten the dust.

By allowing the education minister to resubmit her proposals on education to the Executive this week, in the certain knowledge that they would be knocked down, Sinn Fein was signalling the end of any attempt to reach agreement. Let the blame game begin.

Many, in politics and outside it have blamed the minister. Regardless of the arguments for or against academic selection, there is widespread criticism of her handling of the issue.

Ulster Unionist Basil McCrea twisted the knife at Stormont this week when he said many in the community were "crying out" for the good old days when Martin McGuinness was in charge.

Click here to receive Jim's newsletter in your inbox every Friday

Others will direct their ire at the unionist politicians whose defence of academic selection has at times been so lazy in its logic, and so complacent in its assumptions, that it would merit nothing more than a D- under any independent assessment.

The SDLP could suffer too. A party whose leadership used to boast of the benefits of the 11-Plus, now champions its abolition.

Basil McCrea
Basil McCrea yearned for the days when Martin McGuinness was education minister

In a remarkable display of principle before political ambition, Mark Durkan even stood up in the assembly to back the minister and criticise the first Catholic school to opt for testing - Lumen Christi in his own constituency. With all Catholic grammars now following suit, which political party speaks for them?

Unions under fire

The teaching unions may also come under fire.

They declared their opposition to testing and support for the minister's proposals. But, beyond stating their principles, they appear to have shied away from commenting on the shambles of how the issue has been handled.

The Catholic Church emerges bruised, its moral authority apparently defied.

And a late attempt by the main Christian churches to present a united front in an attempt to achieve political agreement received nothing more, it seems, than warm words from Caitriona Ruane and others. Earlier co-ordinated action from the churches may well have achieved more.

You don't need to be a Shakespearean scholar to have heard the quote "a plague on both your houses". The danger for the Executive is that stalemate on this crucial issue could colour perceptions of the whole political project. The people voted, after all, for devolution - not anarchy.

On Politics Show this Sunday we investigate moves to encourage loyalists to finally begin decommissioning.
Robin has more

NIO Justice Minister Paul Goggins joins me in the studio to discuss this, and the ongoing fallout from the Eames-Bradley report. And if we get a chance, we may take a quick look at education too.

See you Sunday

Jim

PS - Modern educationalists are keen to stress often that "there's no wrong answer". There are funny ones though. Like this from a GCSE RE paper: Noah's wife was Joan of Ark.

My view on the matter is that the education minister is one if not the most politically inept people in Northern Ireland (though she doesn't actually live here :S ?? )

She has embarked on a quest to fundamentally undermine and destroy the highly successful education system we have in Northern Ireland and instead of providing clear leadership and welcoming public opinion she has instead decided to ignore the majority in the Assembly and the majority of the Northern Irish people in her ambition to abolish academic selection.

While I approve the removal of the 11+ I DO NOT support the abolition of academic selection. The system has allowed Northern Ireland to have some of most educated individuals in the United Kingdom with on average the highest results in all examinations. Our teachers are the best qualified and their students highly sought after. While problems do exist they can be easily addressed and should have been instead of this long and wholly disgraceful farce we see today.

The arguement regarding selection being a tool for discrimination is pure bullshit. I went to grammar and I had many friends from highly disadvantaged backgrounds but their natural intelligence got them through the 11+ and many also had strong parental support and encouragement. A good many of those people are now or have recently graduated from from the greatest universities in the UK, from Queens, Cambridge, Oxford, LSE and St. Andrews.

The problem for some children from working class (note the 'some' not all) is that their parents or wider family have absolutely no regard whatsoever for the educational well being of their child nor do they encourage academic excellence in any way or see education as a positive thing. It is then those parents, who at every opportunity wail and shout about the HORRENDOUSLY UNFAIR 11+ and how it discriminates against their child.

In my opinion our system is one of the best in Europe, we allow those with natural intelligence or strong parental support from all backgrounds to progress to a school that suits their needs and allows them to flourish in an environment that best suits them, then we have schools for those children that are not so academically minded. In those schools they can have an education in line with national standards with good teachers as well as having the chance to get training in skills that appeal to them more than A-Levels and university education would.

Having a system in anyway comparable with that in England/Wales is to be wholly opposed. Comprehensive education fails all children in all possible aspects and to even consider such a system here would bring shame upon this country and inflict a failed system one the next generation. I fully support all of the Non-Denominational and Catholic Grammar schools that are to bring in their own testing. They have also confirmed such testing would be provided free of charge to those children that come from less advantaged backgrounds.

My view on the matter is that the education minister is one if not the most politically inept people in Northern Ireland (though she doesn't actually live here :S ?? )




I understand her arguments but she does come across as someone who would not make it into a County Council down here. "Selection" at 11 years of age is outdated and blatantly wrong in this day and age. No kid should be put at a disadvantage like that. Most kids are foolish and don't do well in school by nature. Alot of those kids, here anyway, go on to be the brightest in Secondary School and some of the wealthiest in the country. Every kid should have a completely equal chance to do well.

I understand her arguments but she does come across as someone who would not make it into a County Council down here. "Selection" at 11 years of age is outdated and blatantly wrong in this day and age. No kid should be put at a disadvantage like that. Most kids are foolish and don't do well in school by nature. Alot of those kids, here anyway, go on to be the brightest in Secondary School and some of the wealthiest in the country. Every kid should have a completely equal chance to do well.

I agree to a degree. However the fact remains that not all children are equal. Throughout life they will be subject to selection based on numerous things, education being one.

Having an 'equal' system is a falsehood. In 'equal' schools the children are streamed with the more intelligent children placed in one stream and the less so in another. Thus, it defeats the purpose of an 'equal' education.

Instead why not allow those naturally intelligent children to benefit from a wholly academic education where their mental needs are fulfilled? Why should those children have to go to a school that fails to cater for their needs?

The secondary sector in Northern Ireland is actually rather good, it to is far superior to the schools in England, Wales and Republic of Ireland.


Indeed what I find so unbelievable funny and hypocritical is that the minister, who lives in the Republic, has decided to send her children to schools in Northern Ireland....I mean the irony is painful.

Having just come through the education system in the Republic out of Secondary school and now in Collage I think the system is excellent. "Selection" here is based on the points system for Collage/University - that is the right time IMO when students know their limits. They have come through a system which caters for remedial students and have not been seperated from the other, perhaps, more gifted pupils completely. They all mix. That is right and proper. No kid aged 11 knows their capabilities. Segregation based on selection is wrong. It should be done before entering collage. I don't think a system that condemns some kids at age 11 to an almost certain element of failure speaks volumes about society. That is my opinion. I just don't agree with it. Later on of course "selection" must occur.

Having an 'equal' system is a falsehood. In 'equal' schools the children are streamed with the more intelligent children placed in one stream and the less so in another. Thus, it defeats the purpose of an 'equal' education.

Instead why not allow those naturally intelligent children to benefit from a wholly academic education where their mental needs are fulfilled?


I'm not being rude :), but in my opinion it is too (simplistic?) too talk about
intelligent children/stupid children.

Could it not be that the Secondary kids are just as intelligent but in a different way?

Can intelligence not take many forms?

Somebody once said to me "Define stupidity."

I'm not being rude :), but in my opinion it is too (simplistic?) too talk about
intelligent children/stupid children.

Could it not be that the Secondary kids are just as intelligent but in a different way?

Can intelligence not take many forms?

Somebody once said to me "Define stupidity."

It would be helpful if you read all my posts. I have also never used the word stupid. I stated that some children are more intelligent in an academic sense, while others are better suited to other forms of education and indeed (as I mentioned in a previous post) are more suited to a more skills based education, which secondary schools tend to provide.

Intelligence can take many forms, we are discussing Academic Selection, hence Academic Intelligence is the prevailing train of thought.

Having just come through the education system in the Republic out of Secondary school and now in Collage I think the system is excellent. "Selection" here is based on the points system for Collage/University - that is the right time IMO when students know their limits. They have come through a system which caters for remedial students and have not been seperated from the other, perhaps, more gifted pupils completely. They all mix. That is right and proper. No kid aged 11 knows their capabilities. Segregation based on selection is wrong. It should be done before entering collage. I don't think a system that condemns some kids at age 11 to an almost certain element of failure speaks volumes about society. That is my opinion. I just don't agree with it. Later on of course "selection" must occur.

That's not exactly accurate.

A child may not have developed the ability to deal with a wholly academic education at 11. However that does not mean they are failed for life. They are perfectly able to transfer to a grammar school, should that be the educational path they wish to follow. Grammar schools do and have accepted children from Secondary schools that have shown they posses the ability before they take G.C.S.E's as well as after.

The system is the Republic is different in several ways and as such not completely compatible with the Northern Irish system. I should also add that Northern Ireland ’s higher education institutions have a much larger percentage intake from poorer socio-economic groups than anywhere else on these islands AND pupils in receipt of free school meals, a common indicator of poverty, outperform their peers in Great Britain by a wider margin than the population as a whole, in terms of the percentage obtaining 5 good GCSE grades.

So our system is hardly failing..indeed both the UK mainland and Republic of Ireland have greater levels of educational inequality. So who's system is failing?

The system is the Republic is different in several ways and as such not completely compatible with the Northern Irish system. I should also add that Northern Ireland ’s higher education institutions have a much larger percentage intake from poorer socio-economic groups than anywhere else on these islands AND pupils in receipt of free school meals, a common indicator of poverty, outperform their peers in Great Britain by a wider margin than the population as a whole, in terms of the percentage obtaining 5 good GCSE grades.

So our system is hardly failing..indeed both the UK mainland and Republic of Ireland have greater levels of educational inequality. So who's system is failing?

That may be - I don't know. But the North is also a smaller place - getting a generous subsidy from the UK - tbh it would be incredible if education was poor! That probrably has something to do with it but I have not heard about the standard of education there before so cannot really comment.

That may be - I don't know. But the North is also a smaller place - getting a generous subsidy from the UK - tbh it would be incredible if education was poor! That probrably has something to do with it but I have not heard about the standard of education there before so cannot really comment.

Clearly not exactly too informed on this and instead generalising. Northern Irish schools are not the recipients of generous government spending and are actually suffering from under-funding. If we were so over-funded then hundreds of schools would not be lacking in funds for basic repairs. The system is better given the structures we have in place, the general consensus that education is a good thing (parental support is key in this) and the fact we have some of the best schools and teachers in the UK in terms of training and education provision.

So the UK bailout money arguement does not wash I'm afraid.

The system is better given the structures we have in place, the general consensus that education is a good thing (parental support is key in this) and the fact we have some of the best schools and teachers in the UK in terms of training and education provision.



What? And we don't? And England does'nt either? England is much bigger. That's reality. Size does come into this. It's easier for small places to be thought of as 'good' in certain areas then in bigger places. Bigger population equals bigger problems. It ain't so easy for them. Look at the US. Best Universities in the World are there and yet their education system is thought of as being very poor.

What? And we don't? And England does'nt either? England is much bigger. That's reality. Size does come into this. It's easier for small places to be thought of as 'good' in certain areas then in bigger places. Bigger population equals bigger problems. It ain't so easy for them. Look at the US. Best Universities in the World are there and yet their education system is thought of as being very poor.


The US example is flawed. Their universities are excellent, however they are superior given the fact their students are primarily people from wealthy families and they receive incredibly large endowments from past students and companies. This also allows them to attract a great deal of highly intelligent foreign students that only further their success.

I didn't say you had crap schools, I said on average we outperform. A lot of schools in England are very good, however almost all are private or independent schools, their state sector is WOEFULLY inadequate.

I said on average we outperform.

Im not saying I don't believe you but is there a link you can post?

Im not saying I don't believe you but is there a link you can post?

Of course.

Here's a few for you.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4801413.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7560654.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7573618.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7559725.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7574073.stm

That looks good. What about the comparisions with the Republic? And also, strangely, despite good grades where are the major high tech multinational employers that would make use of those brains? Those that require a smart workforce rather then tax incentives would be queuing up id have thought? It seems that the lack of them is at odds with the standard of students in the North.

That looks good. What about the comparisions with the Republic? And also, strangely, despite good grades where are the major high tech multinational employers that would make use of those brains? Those that require a smart workforce rather then tax incentives would be queuing up id have thought? It seems that the lack of them is at odds with the standard of students in the North.

There are no statistics comparing NI and the Republic as the examinations are different. I was referring to the levels of educational inequality. Though Northern Irish students do on average have a higher literacy rate than students in the Republic.

Corporation tax is an issue actually. Though despite that we still have drawn in Microsoft, the European technology development base for Citigroup, Bombardier, Seagate, Nortel, Halifax, Caterpillar, HCL Technologies, DuPont, Allstate, Liberty Mutual, Abbey, Nortel Networks, Northbrook, HP, SAP, Fujitsu, Daewoo, BT, Raytheon and many more.

Northern Ireland also makes good use of our graduates in the software and technical development sector (of which we lead Europe). Queens University is a world leader in chemical engineering and the Science Park is a leader in new technologies and IT development.

Of course we also have financial companies based in Dublin getting ready to establish in the new Northern Ireland Financial Services area in Titanic Quarter, many have expressed interest once it was confirmed that operating in Northern Ireland would not effect their tax status....never undermine the importance of tax advantages to a company odlum.

never undermine the importance of tax advantages to a company odlum.


Im not undermining it but if you go down to Cork, for example, you will see the research and development campuses of the worlds top 10 pharmecuetical companies employing 10's of 1000's of people. They, themselves, in surveys have said that tax rates are a distant consideration for them. They need the graduates. These are jobs that require the most highly skilled workforces on the planet. They make the likes of Intel and Microsoft in Dublin look passe (just 5 years ago these would have been the top jobs)....though you need a very good education to get in there too. Ive little doubt the likes of Google and Hewlett Packard are attracted also by the low tax regime on Corporations but there is no way, when you look at a list of all the high tech companies here, that all of them have Corporate Tax as thier first priority. There are many locations now with no Corporate Tax whatsoever.

But anyway back to the point....on evidence you have presented it seems impressive but you don't have the portfolio of third and fourth generation companies located here so there must be an issue somewhere!? Maybe the graduates are not in the right areas? Or else there is a culture of - "just leave when you get out of Collage".

What was wrong with the 11+, I thought it was an excellent clever way of electing the elite into a school were they can excel. I failed my 11+, but got over, excellent training for the realities of life. Made me determined to do well at secondary school and found my level in the top 3 classes. Absolutely no regrets about secondary school, new my place, didn't want to do homeworks every night like my mates at the grammar. The elite got on with what they do best and became the doctors and lawyers etc, they were not held back by children who frankly didn't give a toss and would be disruptive. These people who think one glove fits all are extremely naive and obviously have a chip on their shoulder.

But anyway back to the point....on evidence you have presented it seems impressive but you don't have the portfolio of third and fourth generation companies located here so there must be an issue somewhere!? Maybe the graduates are not in the right areas? Or else there is a culture of - "just leave when you get out of Collage".

They are starting to appear. For years as we all know the IRA and Loyalists went about bombing the place to bits, we suffered an immense brain drain to the Republic, UK mainland, Europe and elsewhere and it was hardly the environment that international companies welcomed with open arms. Now that peace prevails, more and more are staying which means the level of graduates is now sufficient for these companies to develop.

They are starting to appear. For years as we all know the IRA and Loyalists went about bombing the place to bits, we suffered an immense brain drain to the Republic, UK mainland, Europe and elsewhere and it was hardly the environment that international companies welcomed with open arms. Now that peace prevails, more and more are staying which means the level of graduates is now sufficient for these companies to develop.

Hopefully those graduates will stay in the North or at the very least on the Island. Ireland as a whole cannot afford brain drains. These companies are solid though. Once you get them they are not as footloose as basic manufacturing. You have a knock on effect too. Once one major high tech company arrives others will look at your area and say "well they must be there for a reason!". Same happened here.

Watch from 12:00 mins. I wonder is this true?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00hd2tc/Hearts_and_Minds_05_02_2009/

Just another point on large multinationals. Take Intel in Leixlip in Dublin. So far they have poured 8 billion dollars into their plant there and a good portion of that money has gone to the actual area itself. They have literally helped build the town into what it is, supported the community like no other company would, and attracted many more large multinationals to the area. So it's not only jobs but real rejuvenation takes place. The benefits cannot be understated. It's remarkable really when you get just one of these companies to your city or area. These companies are different. They are not like manufacturing plants. If Belfast got something like that, which could well happen sooner rather then later, a huge feel good factor should emerge. It would be very exciting. It would set it apart from practically all UK cities aswell. If your education system is as good as claimed then why the hell is not being marketed vigorously to these guys? It just seems like it's being wasted if Belfastuniguy is correct. Hopefully something significant will emerge soon from the recent US trade event. I really don't think corporation tax should be an issue to the really good jobs available out there.

Watch from 12:00 mins. I wonder is this true?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00hd2tc/Hearts_and_Minds_05_02_2009/


Yes and no.

As I said earlier, Northern Ireland in general has the best trained teachers in the UK so that aspect is correct, however, the film gives the impression that because of over-supply only the best get jobs. If that was correct then every school should be achieving excellent results.. The fact remains they are not, there are some schools which do not do as well as the NI average (though do out perform English and Welsh schools).

The point about parents is also one I have made, the majority of parents in Northern Ireland hold education in high regard and this does show and yes in general most pupils here are better behaved, though I think that is more to do with the fact the schools they attend cater to them better. Unlike in England and Wales all pupils are not lumped into one crap school which then leads to disenfranchisement of education which result in bad behaviour.

Saw that last night as well, have to say rather pleased education does its best to stay away from politics as our system is a disgrace. The Sinn Fein education representative is always devoid from reality when he tries to mop up the mess the minister makes, pathetic.

What was wrong with the 11+, I thought it was an excellent clever way of electing the elite into a school were they can excel. I failed my 11+, but got over, excellent training for the realities of life. Made me determined to do well at secondary school and found my level in the top 3 classes. Absolutely no regrets about secondary school, new my place, didn't want to do homeworks every night like my mates at the grammar. The elite got on with what they do best and became the doctors and lawyers etc, they were not held back by children who frankly didn't give a toss and would be disruptive. These people who think one glove fits all are extremely naive and obviously have a chip on their shoulder.


How would they have a chip on their shoulder? I acted the maggot when I was 11 years of age. I could not care for homework and was disruptive as were others. I changed in secondary school and have just left and am doing a Bachelors Degree in Computing in DCU - to think under your opinion if I lived in the North id not have had such a chance. This attitude you display is indicative of a society and I must add there is a clear Unionist/Nationalist devide on this issue. I wonder why that is?

if I lived in the North id not have had such a chance. This attitude you display is indicative of a society and I must add there is a clear Unionist/Nationalist devide on this issue. I wonder why that is?

Wrong. As I stated earlier, had you matured more then you could have transfered to another school, it does happen, the school you enter at 11 is not set in stone.

I think you will also find that while the politicians are divided along tribal lines the majority in Northern Ireland support retention of academic selection, from all backgrounds, so less of the pathetic political point scoring. Its that very reason the mess we have now has been created.

The mess, to me, is illustrated perfectly in the "11+". That seems tribal in itself - in the wrong sense of the word. I think it is attrocious to be scapegoating children at 11 years of age - you are telling them they are failures - they will act as failures. This is extraordinary. Obviously enlightenment may still be lacking. I can see the multinationals now - "this crowd choose their geniuses at 11" - I think Zimbabwe probrably does that aswell. Do you not see the connotations here with something more unsavoury? You obviously want to have teachers telling 11 year olds they are failures. Because that is what this is. I mean this is unbelievable - it really is in this day and age. I don't want an argument but I just don't get this. Open up a thread in the much more liberal "mainland" UK and see what they think!

The mess, to me, is illustrated perfectly in the "11+". That seems tribal in itself - in the wrong sense of the word. I think it is attrocious to be scapegoating children at 11 years of age - you are telling them they are failures - they will act as failures. This is extraordinary. Obviously enlightenment may still be lacking. I can see the multinationals now - "this crowd choose their geniuses at 11" - I think Zimbabwe probrably does that aswell. Do you not see the connotations here with something more unsavoury? You obviously want to have teachers telling 11 year olds they are failures. Because that is what this is. I mean this is unbelievable - it really is in this day and age. I don't want an argument but I just don't get this. Open up a thread in the much more liberal "mainland" UK and see what they think!

Oh please...Zimbabwe, what an absolute crock of misinformed bullshit.

If the self-fulfilling prophecy was indeed true in this case then all those 'failures' would go through secondary school and not give a shit. Fact remains they do not, some of course do, just as some that attend grammar piss the opportunity away.

Secondary school results again out perform those of English and Welsh comprehensives, so your argument falls flat on its face. Both sectors provide very different types of education. Should a child in a secondary wish to become a doctor or lawyer then they can easily switch schools if they have proven themselves to be capable.

Don't give me the crap about 'labelling' kids, FACT remains everyone is labelled. As Delta said many go on to do very well at school and a lot move to a grammar to follow an academic/university preparation path.

You clearly have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about and have instead as normal reverted to your tiresome bullshit and derogatory comments.

BTW..while we are on the subject of literacy and education, perhaps you should have a look through that post you made, not exactly a A+ for spelling mate. ;)

This attitude you display is indicative of a society and I must add there is a clear Unionist/Nationalist devide on this issue. I wonder why that is?

There is a religious divide in schools in NI , catholic/state, this forms part of the problem in NI. However most support academic selection. Once you are in secondary school you can transfer if you are smart enough. Likewise you can be dumped from the grammar if you are not up to the battle. As for children 'failing' at a young age-good preparation for life. Are you the kind of person who thinks sport should be banned in schools because in the likes of football there are winners and losers, 'this sends out the wrong message to our children, it promotes triumphalism' yeah yeah.
You can tell I went to secondery shool bcause my gramer and speling is tearabill.

Oh please...Zimbabwe, what an absolute crock of misinformed bullshit.

If the self-fulfilling prophecy was indeed true in this case then all those 'failures' would go through secondary school and not give a shit. Fact remains they do not, some of course do, just as some that attend grammar piss the opportunity away.

Secondary school results again out perform those of English and Welsh comprehensives, so your argument falls flat on its face. Both sectors provide very different types of education. Should a child in a secondary wish to become a doctor or lawyer then they can easily switch schools if they have proven themselves to be capable.

Don't give me the crap about 'labelling' kids, FACT remains everyone is labelled. As Delta said many go on to do very well at school and a lot move to a grammar to follow an academic/university preparation path.

You clearly have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about and have instead as normal reverted to your tiresome bullshit and derogatory comments.

BTW..while we are on the subject of literacy and education, perhaps you should have a look through that post you made, not exactly a A+ for spelling mate. ;)


If you want personal insults - I will give you insults based on your posts. This is not intended to be a forum in which everyone writes to thesis standard in a post. Though my spelling seems quite adequate. The fact is automatically your "good" education figures are skewed because your dragooning the "good" students into good secondary schools based on what they achieve at 11 years of age. Nuff said. I don't think you understand how bad this looks. I don't expect you to.

BTW..while we are on the subject of literacy and education, perhaps you should have a look through that post you made, not exactly a A+ for spelling mate. ;)



Ever feel your contradicting yourself?:lol:

May as well wade in..

Caitriona Ruane is a complete muppet whether you support the 11+ or not. At the very least a bad system is better than no system. I'm surprised SF haven't given her the boot. She is completely overshadowing anything good they do in the assembly, and her behaviour is not in any way endearing to the Catholic Middle Class.

Now the 11+. There is a problem depending on where you're from. In Belfast the difference between the Grammar Schools and Secondary Schools is immense. In Co Armagh however where there is the Dickson plan, kids get selected at 14 into grammar streams and there isn't the same divide that you get in Belfast.

I do think there should be some form of academic selection. A system based on post code and family links will just become completely exclusive to poor kids. Though don't think the current 11+ is an even playing field. Many well off kids who aren't bright get tutored to death in order to pass, an option not available to the less fortunate.

Have to say I went to a secondary school, and I never thought that not going to a grammar would be a kiss of death if I wanted to be a doctor, lawyer whatever. Isnt it irrelevant once you get into University? I dont know what its like in other towns, but I'd guess that in Belfast half, maybe 2/3 of schools are secondary. Would I be right to assume that most unversity students come from secondary school backgrounds?

Have to say I went to a secondary school, and I never thought that not going to a grammar would be a kiss of death if I wanted to be a doctor, lawyer whatever. Isnt it irrelevant once you get into University?

I just thought it was interesting that the 11+ was able to pick out the elite at age 11. That's not to say that you cannot excel at a secondary school, and also drop out's occur at grammar schools. The questions offered up at 11+ were from a different curriculum than normal maths and english-I still think it is an under-rated assessment. Why change a system that works well? But isn't that what society is about. A bit like architecture in Belfast. If there is somthing good in place demolish and replace with crap-just for the sake of it!!!!

The fact remains they are not, there are some schools which do not do as well as the NI average (though do out perform English and Welsh schools).

Do you have any links with performance tables or something? I'd like to see how true that is. :)

not exactly a A+ for spelling mate. ;)

Not exactly an A+ for grammar. Inaccurate use of the indefinite article. Indefinite articles followed by a vowel always take the form of 'an.':bash:

p.s Have no interest in the above topic, just thought I'd intervene in the name of grammar!:)

Just purely out of interest which is "correct"?

An hotel/A hotel.

Or are both "correct"?

Just purely out of interest which is "correct"?

An hotel/A hotel.

Or are both "correct"?

I'm not a grammatical expert unfortunately; was merely pointing out the irony of the patronising post.:ohno:

Strictly speaking, it would be a hotel if one was to go by the 'queen's english/recieved pronunciation.' However, because many people in the south of England don't pronounce the /h/ sound it is often pronounced with the vowel sound as an otel. Similarly someone from the south of England might say an ouse rather than a house. However, we all use the vowel sound when pronouncing an hour. Basically, it's all about whether the first letter is sounded as a vowel or not.

I guess it depends on one's pronunciation rather than there being a right or a wrong.:) In saying that, in written form it should always be written as a hotel. However, in all dialects, A is always preceded by an.:bash:

I appreciate the response. :)

But lets end this right.....NOW! (and not being rude).

PLEASE don't let this thread turn into a grammar discussing one.

I regard the form as a bit of crack (craic) and a flow of conversation, so what if it starts out on the subject of the 'school selection process', and ends up on the price of bananas on a market stall in Ballygobackwards!!!! relax and go with the flow. Do the control freaks go to the pub with their mates and have printed out discussion topics, which must be adhered to all of the time. RRRRRRRREEEEEEELLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAXXXXXXX, this is a bit of fun, its not that serious.

How would they have a chip on their shoulder? I acted the maggot when I was 11 years of age. I could not care for homework and was disruptive as were others. I changed in secondary school and have just left and am doing a Bachelors Degree in Computing in DCU - to think under your opinion if I lived in the North id not have had such a chance. This attitude you display is indicative of a society and I must add there is a clear Unionist/Nationalist devide on this issue. I wonder why that is?

Exactly how is devided along politcal lines? Throughout the history of the 11+ it was used by bright catholic children to get into excellent catholic grammar schools so they could go to universities to get good degrees as they needed to be very over-qualified before anyone here in NI would look at them, "impressive CV...oh wait...Religion: Roman Catholic! Sorry, position filled!" Nationalists still want a form of selection, Sinn Fein are making a big deal out of it as they were too busy rioting at that age and didn't do it themselves. You don't need an 11+ to go to Long Kesh! Again Odlum, don't take this the wrong way but don't think for nationalists. The average Catholic is realistic not ideological.