undercover by native Shanghainese

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Huihai road, Shanghai's most prosperous street

http://pop.pcpop.com/upimg/2003217125927137.jpg

1 minute walk away

http://pop.pcpop.com/upimg/2003217125255151.jpg


A 9 year old beggar

http://pop.pcpop.com/upimg/2003217125350164.jpg

Notice the hand, the child was sold to mobs, mobs then broke child's leg so they can use kids as begging tools.

http://pop.pcpop.com/upimg/2003217125426463.jpg

http://pop.pcpop.com/upimg/2003217125636320.jpg

http://pop.pcpop.com/upimg/2003217125715584.jpg

http://pop.pcpop.com/upimg/2003217125519146.jpg



http://fjt.infoscape.com.cn/gate/big5/free.21cn.com/forum/index.jsp?forum_id=88

urrgh.....seems that there is a rough side to Shanghai we rarely see...

horrible :bleep:

OMG! Is that true that there were kids being intentionally deformed to be used as begging tools? I can not see his hands. How can you tell?

Such practises where children are maimed to beg for money have been done in some Asian cities for a long time..cant comment too much on the pic though.

I think he meant his feet.

Sad, too sad... :(

That is shocking....

Disgusting--I had heard about this before.
Do the Chinese authorities not take a robust line in dealing with this sort of thing?

No no.. Hey bulga.. why r u always post bad things about china?? i want to see some good things about china..

Not all cities can be good..If there is Maginificent side of a city (pudong) there has to be hellish side of it too.

What the heck!?!? They actually deform kids so they can make them beg on the streets? Damn that sad! I feel so bad for that kid.

Originally posted by ejd03

No no.. Hey bulga.. why r u always post bad things about china?? i want to see some good things about china..

are you newbie?

I have like 500 good threads about China, do a search.

OMG.

I just wanna say, it is not their fault of them being the poors... The poors still dominate the population of China... Let's give them more space to live a life.

I just wanna say it is not their fault of them being the poors... The poors still dominate the population of China, let's give them more space to live a life...

Oops, double post, damn computer...

shots of the year

these pix are very famous in Chinese forums

if you want,i can post more here:D

:devil: :devil: :devil:

I guess China is getting more and more of the capitalism, huh?

Anyway....welcome to the capitalism!

I come from ex-communist country and we didn't have anything like that until we declared independency in 90's and started our "great" journey to capitalism.

Sad...

Originally posted by waterloo

That is shocking....


:(

:(
I've seen such things before in other cities and unfortunately, the people around don't really seem to care about these poor souls.

my poor China.:fiddle:

a transition stage ... communism to capitalism ...
money becomes the game ...

Originally posted by Man G

Disgusting--I had heard about this before.
Do the Chinese authorities not take a robust line in dealing with this sort of thing?
used to, not anymore
since most of those kids are minorities, especially from Xinjiang area.
if the chinese authorities take a hard line deal with it, all the western press will be like....stop abusing human rights, leave those minorities alone....
:bleep:

no days, there are more and more Xinjiang thieves in China's major cities, and cops don't even dare to arrest them.
this is sad !
I say, kill them all !
:D

Yes this is terrible but not uncommon where there is a uneven distribution of wealth. Even in Washington DC, home to the president of United States, we have very scary slums within walking distance. :(

I'm sure you were kidding, stq, but be careful what you say. You don't wanna get banned.

What is fun out of stq's words? It's true that many people from Xinjiang autonomous region, mostly Uigurs, are thieves and gangsters in major cities, specially Shenzhen, Shanghai and Beijing. They steal and rob everything on the street, in the markets, in exhibitions, on buses, and sometimes hurt innocent citizens with knives, or even kill people. There're bad people from everywhere around China but there is only one Xinjiang gang that is extremely terrible. There're good Uigurs also, but in the major cities what they do most are bad things. Yes we have 90% more Han people in China, but it doesn't mean we have to bear with their theft, robbery and killing without having them arrested. This is bad for all of us and all we can do is expressing our feeling of helplessness, and the expression will give rise to the problem of being treated like racism or violation of human rights, give us some space to live ok guys?

dont act like a racist:happy:

I guess China is getting more and more of the capitalism, huh?

Anyway....welcome to the capitalism!

I come from ex-communist country and we didn't have anything like that until we declared independency in 90's and started our "great" journey to capitalism.

You're right, Capitalism does have it's problems, many people are actually worse off as a result of the transition to it in places like eastern europe and Russsia as well. However, it does bring a lot of wealth and opportunities as well. I have a friend from China who's parents couldn't even afford to eat properly 15 yrs ago but since the introduction of a market economy to her area and the massive development as a result they've made a hell of a lot of money and can afford to pay at least £10,000 a year to send her to university in England. I couldn't afford tuition fees that high and I'm from a middle class British family. Capitalism can be a very good thing, you just have to know how to use the system. A predominantly capitalist country with a good welfare system is the best way to go I think.

Beggars whose limbs are broken or scarred intentionally are not uncommon at all in China. I see one everytime when I go from Shenzhen to Hong Kong at the very busy Luohu customs terminal. It's important not to give them any money or you'll just be giving the money to the mobsters who are controlling these poor beggars. There are also other kinds of beggars like child beggars, and young women beggars carrying small children looking in garbage bins for food. Most of these are controlled by mobsters.

Originally posted by Andrew

Capitalism can be a very good thing, you just have to know how to use the system. A predominantly capitalist country with a good welfare system is the best way to go I think.

Welfare system in China is virtually non-existent. That's why the gap between the rich and the poor is quite big in China.

Speaking of Shanghai street scene, I bet you guys haven't seen this -- Next time you walk on Huaihai Road or Nanjing Road, take a turn off to the smaller streets and you will see piles of garbages on the side of the road. They're everywhere, and some are piled up at least 2 metres high. I suppose people just dump them there for the garbage trucks (or garbage-sweeping trucks) to clean up? Doesn't even occur to the people that they should at least wrap up the sh!t in garbage wrap or use garbage bins. It's just frigging disgusting and imagine what they would smell like in the summer...

Yep, behind all the ultra-modern glitterness of Shanghai, there are surely a lot very ugly and unappealing scenes. But I guess the same can be said of London, or New York. But I guess the magnitude of Shanghai is just bigger. Anyhow, I just think Shanghai is overrated as a city in general. No way in hell can it be compared to Hong Kong at the moment.

One more hellish scene I remember when I was in Shanghai...

It just seems to me that to most lower-incomed mainlanders, the best and most convenient place to dump their garbage (no matter how big and messy) is the ground immediately below them.

I was walking near Pearl of the Orient at a small shopping plaza (forgot the name), and I must have seen the biggest pile of crap I've ever seen -- paper napkins, starofoam lunch boxes, plastic eating utensils, chopsticks, scraps of discarded food, bones, you name it. It looked to me that workers nearby just finished their meals and just irresponsibly left their garbage on the ground. I would never imagine that something like this can happen at a place like Pearl of the Orient. Well, I was wrong.

these phenomena represent absence of public morality . and penalty can be an effective step before people develop favorable behavior.

Originally posted by bziherl

I guess China is getting more and more of the capitalism, huh?

Anyway....welcome to the capitalism!

I come from ex-communist country and we didn't have anything like that until we declared independency in 90's and started our "great" journey to capitalism. What a ridiculous thing to say. This has nothing to do with capitalism, and everything to do with weak government & police and an absence of a strong public moral spirit. That never happens in a first world country.

Might I remind you that in your precious communism, you would not be using a modern computer chatting on the internet, would you? How easy it is to forget the good. Capitalism is just a system of ownership. If your countrymen seem to not mind mutilating children for profit, I would blame your culture, not your economic system.

hk

I dont blame the chinese public. Most of them aren't equipped to do anything about this situation. I blame a weak police enforcement (which is profoundly corrupt). Were China more staunchly communist, people would still attempt to do horrible things like this, just as they do in any country. Communism does not stop the egotistical and morally repugnant tendencies that some people in each culture have. The false notion that human nature can create utopias is perhaps marxism's most glaring error.

No u r funny babe.
You know why daren't the polices arrest them? Because they're minorities! Can u Imagine how Western countries like yours who keep demonizing China by making fake reports out of nothing will act if some of the criminals will be under arrest? Kill us, no problem; hurt us, no problem; steal us, no problem... Yeah you know there is already a negative image of China in treating minorities. We enjoy all of the killings, robberies, thefts... Let it blow us harder...

Originally posted by bziherl

I guess China is getting more and more of the capitalism, huh?

Anyway....welcome to the capitalism!

I come from ex-communist country and we didn't have anything like that until we declared independency in 90's and started our "great" journey to capitalism.
That's pure BS! ;)

Powerty and starvation was worst during the communist drives such as 'the great leap forward'.

Sure, not everyone can be successful and born with a body like the majority in a country of >1bn, but without having statistics to prove it I can assure you not as many people have to beg now as under previous decades!

There weren't any beggars in the past, but it doesn't mean they were not poor, poverty has less to do with begging. In the past most of the people shared almost the same wealth, and they didn't require high for living standard. Since China was developed from nothing, it's hard to expect that most of the people were wealthy. See now it is economically capitalized, people strive for money despite what kind of means they will adopt. And some of them work on such things to employ some kids or disabilities to beg on the street. Some of them r minorities who r unbelievably protected(due to the made-up reports in western countries, the government dares not to arrest them) doing such things to make so bad a situation. I can't say anything but the beggars r increasing.

Well, I heard a different story from the olden days, countless farmers pouring into the cities for begging as crops were devastated after radical political reforms. These people were considered as workers, with begging as their occupation.

Also, wealth wasn't evenly distributed back then either, living conditions depended extremely much on supposed 'class' background.

Not that everything is rosy now, but I'd say things on average are moving in the right direction. I will take a long time though.. corruption must be a huge issue!

Anyway, I don't necessary disagree with you postmodern on suppressing crime. Sometimes the western press can be over zealous on a specific issue while missing the big picture. I don't really know that much about how bad the crime is and what is being done so.. if you say so I believe you ;)

I guess China is getting more and more of the capitalism, huh?

Anyway....welcome to the capitalism!




i hope so.

in fact, capitalism is more socialisitic than socialism.

its very common.... some have their legs twisted over their heads.... this kid has got off pretty lighlty..... veyr common in GZ and the other big cities.... the cops dont care

How does this have anything to do with communism?

No!!!!!!!!!!

China is much better today then it was during the 50's-70's. Even though there is a lot more income disparity, the chinese are much better off under capitialism. In under 40 years china went from famine to relative riches. To quote a documentry i saw on China " The world has never seen a country get so rich, so fast."

I saw this in a PBS documentary some time ago. Yes, it is quite sad.

China :wtf:

They need to catch the mob.

I saw this in a PBS documentary some time ago. Yes, it is quite sad.

China :wtf:

yep, thats what i saw in on :)

Because of China's reform they lifted 250 million people out of absolute poverty! Thats amazing considering they started the transformation during 1980. Not a single country in the world could achieve that in just two decades. What more detail proof? Go to the bookstore and get the latest Fortune Magazine(Vol. 150 no.7; OCT 4 issue) the entire magazine this month talks about China and its successes.

I have seen quite the same "concept" few years back in Soho area/Piccadilly Circus tube. Some Caucasian young women bringing babies, put the babies on the mat and beg using the babies as "selling" point to soften people's heart.

Same thing in Jakarta, one can rent the baby, toddler to bring for begging on the street junctions. These beggars earn amazingly better than labourer (mason,carpenters etc). On big holiday they rent together aircon bus bringing back home all the goodies (TV,radio etc) to their home town.

For me if I may look at a macro level, it is the big income disparity urban to rural is one of the cause.
Lack of education/competencies makes the beckon of urban skyscraper glitters seems so promising, hypnotising yet when they arrive the harsh urban jungle swallow most of them who cant adapt & stay on the honorable way.
Hence the begging (or organised cruel begging), prostitution /drugs peddling, petty crime, organised crime etc which is always the other side of the urban reality like what we saw here on the picture. It is the tip of the iceberg of our urban design.

For me who is lucky lived before in Asian, some European, Aspac cities in general Shanghai is indeed just as liveable if not better.

In the early moring enough greeneries in the center and around the cities gave space for inhabitants to exercise. I saw people smile and happy in general. Most basic things works well, my family and I feel safe on the street in most time, transportation is ok, most infrastructure been quite well plan (Fortune magazine says Shanghai plan for 20 years ahead). Most places even alleys are clean compare to Jakarta, Manila, Bangkok, Bombay. Small things I saw like orderly in alleys numbering of houses (try to find a house in South Jakarta expat areas hehehe), their electricity cable is properly installed, water is running. Most of urban workers who live in old small dirty houses now moved to the new high rises which is in general clean, well design.
Spitting habit still there, though getting less specially after that SARS breakout.

Off course Shanghai does not representing the whole country.
Then China itself with 1.3 billion people is always a fascinatingly mind boggling complex estate to run.
Just to imagine try to put on the table 3x a day a rice of bowl, for me already a kind of miracle, then clothing, health, education, housing, transports, welfare etc etc...
A elderly neighbour in NZ once ask me how many people in Jakarta? I said around 14 million in Greater Metro Jakarta. She said she cant imagine how can 14m living in a city together (as compare to NZ 4 mill pop).
Then when I go to China, she ask again I said the pop is 1 .3 billion, just to digest the number itself already hard not to swallow, not to say to imagining how big is 1.3billion folks. One have to see on the grass root to appreciate this complex country with long thousand of years warring history.

So what been displayed here is quite true. What I have known from local friends in Sha/China that the welfare dept did their lion share too in eradicating poverties. Number of NGO also doing good job in improving things. Expat associations also been participating quietly.

My point is let us make things better rather than wait it get better, where ever you are. We need to recoqnize bad things too so we can make amend.

Personally,overall, I have doubt about our current grande society design / model which drove urbanisation, very high density living.

I read with some relieve few years back, that some US architects/city planner now going back to The Main Street cluster concept instead of huge supermalls or shopping destinations. US used be desing/build anything around car.

As the cliche said: We borrow this world from our kids,grand kids. Let's leave it better for them as our return. Where ever we reside, contribute. After all still a lonely planet the earth is.

Cheers, :)

are you newbie?

I have like 500 good threads about China, do a search.
It seems bluga's posting ugly pics of China again...but those pictures are always true= =
500 good threads?! How come i always see you posting negative threads?_?
Got no idea why he sees China so negatively...
But anyway...same thing happened in many currently wealthy countries before they got rich, so hopefully things'll just get better in China.(It doesn't mean we don't need to do anything about it)

It seems bluga's posting ugly pics of China again...but those pictures are always true= =
500 good threads?! How come i always see you posting negative threads?_?
Got no idea why he sees China so negatively...
But anyway...same thing happened in many currently wealthy countries before they got rich, so hopefully things'll just get better in China.(It doesn't mean we don't need to do anything about it)
I can't agree more.
there are so many things we should to do.

改编一句话:"每个中国人都对彼此负有责任."

I've seen those kind people everywhere in China, your government should spend more time helping it's poor instead of sabre rattling with Taiwan. Such a sad signt to see.

:runaway: I've seen those kind people everywhere in China, your government should spend more time helping it's poor instead of sabre rattling with Taiwan. Such a sad signt to see.


you know the history between china mainland and Taiwan ?

I'm aware of the history. Think of it this way, what does China hope to gain by taking back Taiwan VS what can China gain by helping it's poor.

I'm aware of the history. Think of it this way, what does China hope to gain by taking back Taiwan VS what can China gain by helping it's poor.
I don't think this two conflict.
All important.

by the way,there are some progress between chinese mainland and taiwan recently.

And,thanks your remind of the problems of china.

If you want to compare China's Taiwan issue with its poverty issue...consider the United State's ridiculous level of military presence in foreign lands (such as the Middle East). Why don't we spend all this money on domestic improvement? We have our share of poor people and crumbling infrastructure, too. 450 billion US dollars is a lot of money.

Government is complicated.

不用和他们谈，那些人不了解实际情况，坐在电脑前边，以为自己很了不起，通晓全球了。

Bluga? I wonder what nationality is that guy and where is he living now.

Bluga? I wonder what nationality is that guy and where is he living now.
I guess he's from Taiwan(what a shame~)...because he could type traditional Chinese...and he used to post pictures of Taipei 101...he could also be Japanese though...

Right they r really poor they can go to the Metro for 3Y daily and they can deliberately choose their working hours when the Metro is all congested. They know how to choose financial or commerical areas and they know to beg when people are off duty goin' home, the traffic is all stuck and they just sit on the pedestrian pavements to further slow down the people flow's move. Yeah they r poor and we should back off from threatenin' TW.