Theodor Zeev Hertzl
http://stagemag.co.il/img/herzl385.jpg
Theodor Herzl (Hebrew: בנימין זאב הרצל‎ (Binyamin Ze'ev Herzl)) (May 2, 1860–July 3, 1904) was a Hungarian Jewish journalist who was the father of modern political Zionism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertzl

Joseph Trumpeldor
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Joseph_Trumpeldor.jpg/411px-Joseph_Trumpeldor.jpg
Joseph Trumpeldor (December 1, 1880 – March 1, 1920, Hebrew: יוסף טרומפלדור‎, ), was an early Zionist activist, notable for helping organize the Zion Mule Corps and bringing Jewish immigrants to Palestine.

Chaim Azriel Weizmann
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Weizmann_1948.jpg

Chaim Azriel Weizmann (Hebrew: חיים עזריאל ויצמן‎, born 27 November 1874, died 9 November 1952) was a Zionist leader, President of the World Zionist Organization, and the first President of the State of Israel. He was elected on 1 February 1949, and served until his death in 1952. Weizmann was also a chemist who developed a new process of producing acetone through bacterial fermentation. He founded the Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot, Israel.

Ze'ev Jabotinsky
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Zeev_Jabotinsky.jpg/180px-Zeev_Jabotinsky.jpg

Ze'ev Jabotinsky MBE (Hebrew: זאב ז'בוטינסקי‎; Russian: Зеэв Жаботинский, born Vladimir Yevgenyevich Zhabotinsky on October 18, 1880, died August 4, 1940) was a right-wing Revisionist Zionist leader, author, orator, soldier, and founder of the Jewish Self-Defense Organization in Odessa. He also helped form the Jewish Legion of the British army in World War I, and was a founder and leader of the clandestine Jewish armed organization Irgun.

David Ben Gurion
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/David_BG.jpg/225px-David_BG.jpg
born David Grün on 16 October 1886, died 1 December 1973) was the first Prime Minister of Israel. Ben-Gurion's passion for Zionism, which began early in life, culminated in his instrumental role in the founding of the state of Israel. After leading Israel to victory in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Ben-Gurion helped build the state institutions and oversaw the absorption of vast numbers of Jews from all over the world. Upon retiring from political life in 1970, he moved to Sde Boker, where he lived until his death. Posthumously, Ben-Gurion was named one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Important People of the Century.

Moshe Dayan
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Moshe_Dayan_croped.JPG/200px-Moshe_Dayan_croped.JPG
Moshe Dayan, (Hebrew: משה דיין‎, 20 May 1915 – 16 October 1981) was an Israeli military leader and politician. The fourth Chief of Staff of the Israel Defense Forces (1953–1958), he became a fighting symbol to the world of the new State of Israel. He went on to become Defense Minister and later Foreign Minister of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan

Yonatan Netanyahu
http://www.hadracha.org/uploads/yoni.jpg
Yonatan "Yoni" Netanyahu or Jonathan Netanyahu (Hebrew: יונתן "יוני" נתניהו) , (March 13, 1946 – July 4, 1976) was a member of the Israel Defense Forces elite Sayeret Matkal unit. His younger brother Benjamin Netanyahu was Prime Minister of Israel from 1996-1999, and currently serves as Leader of the Opposition in the Knesset.

Yoni was awarded the Medal of Distinguished Service (Hebrew: עיטור המופת‎) for his conduct in the Yom Kippur War. He was killed in action during Operation Entebbe at Entebbe airport, by Ugandan soldiers, when the Israeli military rescued hostages after an aircraft hijacking. He was the leader of the assault, and the only Israeli military fatality of the raid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoni_Netanyahu

Eli Cohen
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/Elicohen.gif
Eli Cohen (Hebrew: אלי כהן‎) (December 26, 1924 – May 18, 1965) was an Israeli spy.

Born in Egypt, Cohen contributed to pro-Israeli activities in Egypt during the 1950s, such as taking part in Operation Goshen although the Egyptian government could never provide proof of it. But the most important part of his career began when he was recruited into Israeli military intelligence in 1960. He was given a false identity as a Syrian Arab who was returning to Syria after living in Argentina. To establish his cover, Cohen moved to Argentina in 1961.

Early the following year, he moved to Damascus. For the next few years, using the alias Kamel Amin Tsa'abet (also commonly pronounced Sa'bet or Tha'bet), Cohen gained the confidence of many Syrian military and government officials, and sent intelligence to Israel by radio, secret letters, and occasionally by visiting Israel in person. His most famous achievement was to tour the Syrian fortifications on the Golan Heights. In 1964 his control was transferred to Mossad as part of an intelligence reorganization.

In January 1965, hired Soviet experts caught him in the act of sending a radio message after large amounts of radio interference brought attention. After a showcase trial, he was found guilty of espionage. Despite many appeals including from Pope Paul VI and the heads of state of France, Belgium and Canada, to persuade the Syrian government to commute the death sentence,[1] he was publicly hanged by Syria on May 18, 1965. Syria to this day refuses to return Eli Cohen's remains to his family for burial in Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Cohen

Edmond James de Rothschild

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/05/Edmond_James_de_Rothschild.jpg/225px-Edmond_James_de_Rothschild.jpg
Baron Edmond Benjamin James de Rothschild (August 19, 1845 – November 2, 1934) was a French member of the Rothschild banking family. A strong supporter of Zionism, his genorous donations lended significant support to the movement during its early years which helped lead to the establishment of the State of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond_James_de_Rothschild

Hanna Szenes
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/HannahSzenes1.jpg/220px-HannahSzenes1.jpg
Hannah Szenes (or Chana Senesh) (Hebrew: חנה סנש‎) (July 17, 1921 – November 7, 1944) was a Hungarian Jew, one of 37 Jews living in Palestine, now Israel, who were trained by the British army to parachute into Yugoslavia during the Second World War in order to help save the Jews of Hungary, who were about to be deported to the German death camp at Auschwitz.[1]

Szenes was arrested at the Hungarian border, imprisoned and tortured, but she refused to reveal details of her mission, and was eventually tried and executed by firing squad.[1] She is regarded as a national heroine in Israel, where several streets and a kibbutz are named after her and her poetry is widely known.

gread thread Zohar....finally..!!!!

but back in topic i always haved a soft spot for Yoni Netanyahu, thats a true hero..!!!

What got into you? Israeli big brother is off tonight?
Anyway, hope you keep this up ;)

ARIK SHARON - #1 HERO :)

ARIK SHARON - #1 HERO :)

Was until he destroyed it by beoming a corrupt pig and setting Israel into the path of becoming a banana republic.

Hanna Szenes
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/HannahSzenes1.jpg/220px-HannahSzenes1.jpg
Hannah Szenes (or Chana Senesh) (Hebrew: חנה סנש‎) (July 17, 1921 – November 7, 1944) was a Hungarian Jew, one of 37 Jews living in Palestine, now Israel, who were trained by the British army to parachute into Yugoslavia during the Second World War in order to help save the Jews of Hungary, who were about to be deported to the German death camp at Auschwitz.[1]

Szenes was arrested at the Hungarian border, imprisoned and tortured, but she refused to reveal details of her mission, and was eventually tried and executed by firing squad.[1] She is regarded as a national heroine in Israel, where several streets and a kibbutz are named after her and her poetry is widely known.

Hanna's War is a film from '88 about Ms. Senesh. It's an obscure movie but I think that the acting is actually quite good. It is a compelling story.

ARIK SHARON - #1 HERO :)

was. too bad that he made such big mistake :ohno:.

Moshe Dayan trurn out to be a thief, womanizer and a huge coward during the Yom Kippur war. All his kids and grandkids and even relatives are mentaly ill or drug adicts.

Look at Herzl.
His kids were 1930's Drug Addicts and suicidal...

was. too bad that he made such big mistake :ohno:.

You aren't talking about the disengagement, are you?

You aren't talking about the disengagement, are you?

No, the disengagment was a huge success with 2500 rockets fired at the souranding area, the kidanpping of Schalit and a division of the nation and hamas taking control. Th resetlement of the settlers is also a huge success with many of them living in carvans and unemployed years later.
Kadiam it self is a model for government and honesty.

You aren't talking about the disengagement, are you?

im talking exactly about that.
it was a HUGE mistake. and i was supporter for this stupid act at that time.

:wallbash:

It's not like before the disengagement there were no qassams. I still think it was the right thing to do, for many reasons. One thing that was terribly wrong about it was that the same man who settled them there also expelled them. How hypocritical.

I still think it was the right thing to do, for many reasons.

Such as?

It's not like before the disengagement there were no qassams. I still think it was the right thing to do, for many reasons. One thing that was terribly wrong about it was that the same man who settled them there also expelled them. How hypocritical.

i agree that we don't have nothing to do there but we had to do it with agreement with the palestinians. stop the terror, we will get out.

^^I was thinking the same, but only with the military. We don't need civilians there.

Moshe Dayan trurn out to be a thief, womanizer and a huge coward during the Yom Kippur war. All his kids and grandkids and even relatives are mentaly ill or drug adicts.

Who cares if he was womanizer womanizer aha:D
how u dare to call Aviv Gefen,Yael Dayan ill people?

It's not like before the disengagement there were no qassams. I still think it was the right thing to do, for many reasons. One thing that was terribly wrong about it was that the same man who settled them there also expelled them. How hypocritical.

:yes:
+less soldiers died in Gaza

:yes:
+less soldiers died in Gaza

Eh? How many thousands of soldiers died for Israel not to be destroyed?
Should Israel be wipe out and all Jews resturn to Europe/Asia/North Africa.
The lives of may soldiers will be saved this way, no?

How dare you call Aviv Gefen and Yael Dayan people?

^^fuck off from this thread!
u have no right to destroy this thread!
go to Canada forums!its ur home...

^^fuck off from this thread!
u have no right to destroy this thread!
go to Canada forums!its ur home...

I have a better idea, what don't you stop being an idiot and then I won't have to response to your idiotism. Take the dildo out of your ass and your your brains next time.

^^fuck off from this thread!
u have no right to destroy this thread!
go to Canada forums!its ur home...

ohh my zohan is angry..! careful alon, u dont wanna mess with the zohan..! :D

ohh my zohan is angry..! careful alon, u dont wanna mess with the zohan..! :D

If I messed with 1.90M 110Kg Gorillas, I cam mess with the Zohan.
But then again he is quicker and from what I understand, very dangerous when he comes from behind.

ok back to the thread :)

More Heroes for Israel:
Igal Amir
http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D021107/250igalAmir_LM.jpg

Yigal Amir (Hebrew: יגאל עמיר‎, born May 23, 1970) is the Israeli assassin of Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin. The assassination took place November 4, 1995 at the conclusion of a rally in Tel Aviv. Amir is currently serving a life sentence for murder plus 14 years for conspiracy to murder Rabin on different occasions and for injuring Rabin's bodyguard, Yoram Rubin, under aggravating circumstances

May he rot in jail.

ok back to the thread :)

More Heroes for Israel:
Igal Amir
http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D021107/250igalAmir_LM.jpg

Yigal Amir (Hebrew: יגאל עמיר‎, born May 23, 1970) is the Israeli assassin of Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin. The assassination took place November 4, 1995 at the conclusion of a rally in Tel Aviv. Amir is currently serving a life sentence for murder plus 14 years for conspiracy to murder Rabin on different occasions and for injuring Rabin's bodyguard, Yoram Rubin, under aggravating circumstances

sorry to disappoint you, but Amir is not hero.

Jewish faith:

Moses
Moses (Hebrew: מֹשֶׁה) is a Biblical Hebrew religious leader, lawgiver, prophet, and military leader, to whom the authorship of the Torah is traditionally attributed. Also called Moshe Rabbeinu in Hebrew (Hebrew: מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ, Lit. "Moses our Teacher"), he is the most important prophet in Judaism.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/MichaelangeloMoses20020315.jpg

King David:

David (Hebrew: דָּוִד) was the second king of the united Kingdom of Israel according to the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament. He is depicted as a righteous king — although not without fault — as well as an acclaimed warrior, musician and poet, traditionally credited with the authorship of many of the Psalms. The biblical chronology places his life c.1037 - 967 BC, his reign over Judah c.1007 - 1000 BC, and over Judah and Israel c.1000 - 967 BC.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Michelangelos_David.jpg/450px-Michelangelos_David.jpg

King Solomon
King Solomon (Hebrew: שְׁלֹמֹה) is a figure described in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament). The biblical accounts identify Solomon as the son of David. He is also called Jedidiah in the Tanakh (Old Testament), and is described as the third king of the United Monarchy, and the final king before the northern Kingdom of Israel and the southern Kingdom of Judah split; following the split his patrilineal descendants ruled over Judah alone.

The Bible accredits Solomon as the builder of the First Temple in Jerusalem, and portrays him as great in wisdom, wealth, and power. Solomon is the subject of many other later references and legends.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

In one sentence: the fathers of the Jewish religion.

Alexander Zaïd

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/AlexanderZaid.jpg/384px-AlexanderZaid.jpg

Monument in memory of Alexander Zaid near Bet She'arim national park, statue by David PolusAlexander Zaid (1886 − July 10, 1938) was one of the founders of the Jewish defense organizations Bar Giora and Hashomer, and a prominent figure of the Second Aliyah.


Early life
Zaid was born in 1886 in Zima, a town in Irkutsk Oblast, Siberia. His father had been deported from Vilna to Siberia due to revolutionary activity and his mother was a Subbotnik, whose parents had converted and were exiled as a result. In 1889 the mother was murdered by a bandit and the family moved to Irkutsk. In 1901 they returned to Vilna, where his father remarried. Two years later, the father died, too. The orphaned teenager met Michael Helpern, a First Aliyah pioneer sent to Vilna to promote immigration to Palestine. Zaid moved to Palestine in 1904 under the auspices of the Zionist Labour Movement. He worked at the winery in Rishon Letzion, where he met Israel Shochat, as a construction worker in Ben Shemen and a stonemason in Jerusalem.

Life in pre-state Israel
In 1907, he helped establish the first Jewish watchmen's organization, the clandestine "Bar-Giora". Two years later, in 1909, he was one of the founders of Hashomer, a Jewish defense organization, to safeguard the Jewish agricultural settlements in Palestine. Zaid was a founder of Kfar Giladi and Tel Hai. In 1926, when Hashomer was replaced by the Haganah, Zaid moved to Sheikh Abrik in the Valley of Jezreel, where he worked as a watchman, overseeing the lands of the JNF. While digging the foundations for his family home, he uncovered ancient remains that led to the discovery of the necropolis of Beit She'arim. [1]

Zaid survived two attacks by Arab marauders, but on the night of July 10, 1938, he was murdered. [2]


Commemoration
On a hilltop overlooking the Jezreel Valley is a bronze statue of Alexander Zaid on horseback sculpted by David Polus[3] The settlements Beit Zaid and Gva'ot Zaid were named after him. The poet Alexander Penn dedicated his poem, Adamah, Admati ("Land, My Land") to Alexander Zaid.

Dor leave ur ayatollahs ...its Israeli heroes!

What Zohar means is, that this thread is about Zionist and Israeli heroes (figures), not Biblical figures and the such :)

^^exactly!

^^exactly!

Why did the Zionist leaders you posted decided to return to Israel in the first place?
If there is no historical connection like many of you Jew haters claim then why bother come to Israel in the first place?

I know your a bit of an Idiot but you don't see that you are cutting the tree brunch yout sitting on?

since when religion haters became jew haters?
Brainwashed people!
ah btw at least Im not a rat who escape from his home for few more dollars

MASPIK WITH THE FIGHTING :mad:


A couple of heroes i want to include:

Eyal Berkovic, Haim Revivo and Yossi Benayoun

^^come on!stop bringing all this garbage!
This thread dedicated to real Zionist heroes!

Igal Amir was a zionist :)

since when religion haters became jew haters?
Brainwashed people!
ah btw at least Im not a rat who escape from his home for few more dollars

I'm a bigger ethiest then you, but you can't cahage our history to feet your views. We are Jews, Judaism is our religion and this is the reason Israel exist.
Without this connection there is NO association to the land and that is what the Arabs claim. In you naivity you are justifying the hamas and their likes without understanding the consicounces of your actions.

^^stop putting words in my mouth!Ive never justified the Hamas!
About religion some would say religion some would say HISTORY!
as u know real Zionists are seculars!so 1+1

Igal Amir was a zionist :)

Igal Amir is a biological mistake

^^stop putting words in my mouth!Ive never justified the Hamas!
About religion some would say religion some would say HISTORY!
as u know real Zionists are seculars!so 1+1

I don't understand how you can say that in order to love Israel you need to be secular.
There many Christian Zionist that love Israel more then anythings else.
Very childish and imature statment.

real Zionists-Israel creators...
Christian Zionists didnt establish Israel

...And some Evangelical Christians support Israel so that Jesus can descend from the heavens and kill all the Jews.

If you think Israel was established by religion because of religion, you should really study the history of Zionism.

Zionists were always very secular
settlers dont represent Zionism!

Zohar, read about Alexander Zaid in my earlier post. His parent were a Russian goy and a Christian convert to Judaism (subotnik). Rafeal Eitan (RIP) the former General was also from afamily of religious Jewish converts. When Israel was created there were not many Mizrhim in Israel, so that makes all of them non zionists?

Settleres actualy are the only Zionist left.

oh those 2!what about other 500,000?
settlers are fanatic patriots not zionists!
I dont think mizrahim realized yet whats Zionism:D
give them another 60 years:D

oh those 2!what about other 500,000?
settlers are fanatic patriots not zionists!
I dont think mizrahim realized yet whats Zionism:D
give them another 60 years:D

Why would you label 500,000 as having the same toughts?
Many settlers are not even relgious, but its easier to believe the media lies.

^^most of ideologic settlers are religious for sure

^^most of ideologic settlers are religious for sure
Was Gandi (may he rest in peace) relgious?

The settlers must be stopped and removed now! Put them in the big settlement blocks near the Green Line and seal the border. Keep the IDF in the West Bank until a agreement can be signed with the Palestinians and zeh hu. They're destroying the country with their version of the 'One-State Solution.' They live in the world of the Mashiach. It's time to being them back to the real world.

The settlers must be stopped and removed now! Put them in the big settlement blocks near the Green Line and seal the border. Keep the IDF in the West Bank until a agreement can be signed with the Palestinians and zeh hu. They're destroying the country with their version of the 'One-State Solution.' They live in the world of the Mashiach. It's time to being them back to the real world.

i support that....but also send all the arabs living inside Israel to the west bank and gaza...its 1 state for jews 1 state for arabs period....if Israel can have arabs them palestine can have jews..!

i support that....but also send all the arabs living inside Israel to the west bank and gaza...its 1 state for jews 1 state for arabs period....if Israel can have arabs them palestine can have jews..!

It don't work that way. Ain't so simple. The settlers aren't the same as Israeli-Arabs for historical, legal, and other reasons. Israeli-Arabs are legitimate citizens of Israel. They must not be removed from their homes forcibly and against their will.

Dor leave ur ayatollahs ...its Israeli heroes!

the history of Israel and the history of Judeism is the same. so it's mean that they have same heros.
when you open thread, dont give him general meaning like this.
thats all... miss you:banana:

Israeli-Arabs are legitimate citizens of Israel. They must not be removed from their homes forcibly and against their will.

neighter the settlers...fair is fair...jews will have 1 state while arabs will have 2..thats fair to u?

Was Gandi (may he rest in peace) relgious?

most........except Uri Eldad and Gandi there were another famous secular settlers?

I can bring u thousands of religious settlers

The settlers must be stopped and removed now! Put them in the big settlement blocks near the Green Line and seal the border. Keep the IDF in the West Bank until a agreement can be signed with the Palestinians and zeh hu. They're destroying the country with their version of the 'One-State Solution.' They live in the world of the Mashiach. It's time to being them back to the real world.

I propose to send them as far as its possible!
Another cancer of the country

the history of Israel and the history of Judeism is the same. so it's mean that they have same heros.
when you open thread, dont give him general meaning like this.
thats all... miss you:banana:

chipopo,history of Israel started in 1948
miss ya too;)

Ha Rav Kook is a hero :) and a zionist...

yeah ure right!
Abraham Isaac Kook
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/thumb/f/fb/RabbiKook.jpg/150px-RabbiKook.jpg
Abraham Isaac Kook (1865–1935) was the first Ashkenazi chief rabbi of the British Mandate for Palestine, the founder of the Religious Zionist Yeshiva Merkaz HaRav, Jewish thinker, Halachist, Kabbalist and a renowned Torah scholar. He is known in Hebrew as הרב אברהם יצחק הכהן קוק HaRav Avraham Yitzchak HaCohen Kook, and by the acronym HaRaAYaH or simply as "HaRav." He was one of the most celebrated and influential Rabbis of the 20th century.

Menahem Ussishkin
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/e/e7/Usiskin.jpg
He served as Hebrew Secretary at the First Zionist Congress. He was one of the leaders who forced the abandonment of the Uganda plan.

In his pamphlet "Our Program" he advocated group settlement based on labour Zionism. Under his influence the Zionist movement actively supported the establishment of agricultural settlements, educational and cultural institutions, and a Hebrew university.

Berl Katznelson
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e8/Berl_Katznelson_1934.jpg/180px-Berl_Katznelson_1934.jpg
Berl Katznelson (Hebrew: ברל כצנלסון‎, born 25 January 1887, died 12 August 1944) was one the intellectual founders of Labor Zionism, instrumental to the establishment of the modern State of Israel, and the editor of Davar, the first daily newspaper of the workers' movement.

It don't work that way. Ain't so simple. The settlers aren't the same as Israeli-Arabs for historical, legal, and other reasons. Israeli-Arabs are legitimate citizens of Israel. They must not be removed from their homes forcibly and against their will.

No one has to be removed from their homes, you just have to draw the lines that makes their home out of Israel.

But since we deal with heros, this is a site visit a few times a month just
to give my respects.
http://www.izkor.gov.il/izkor11b.htm

ok back to the thread :)

More Heroes for Israel:
Igal Amir
http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D021107/250igalAmir_LM.jpg

Yigal Amir (Hebrew: יגאל עמיר‎, born May 23, 1970) is the Israeli assassin of Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin. The assassination took place November 4, 1995 at the conclusion of a rally in Tel Aviv. Amir is currently serving a life sentence for murder plus 14 years for conspiracy to murder Rabin on different occasions and for injuring Rabin's bodyguard, Yoram Rubin, under aggravating circumstances

Is Amir really considered by a good portion of Israelis? I'm not suggesting a majority, but a sizable minority?

Is Amir really considered by a good portion of Israelis? I'm not suggesting a majority, but a sizable minority?


Considered what?
After the murder of Rabin 90% of Israeli Jews wanted him hanged,
Now, that the Oslo accords are seen as a collosal disaster by more and more Israelis, there are more and more voice calling for his eventual release.

Considered what?
After the murder of Rabin 90% of Israeli Jews wanted him hanged,
Now, that the Oslo accords are seen as a collosal disaster by more and more Israelis, there are more and more voice calling for his eventual release.

That's just sick. He murdered another human being. Let him rot in jail for the rest of his life.

No one has to be removed from their homes, you just have to draw the lines that makes their home out of Israel.

That would have to be done with their consent. Each Israeli-Arab village/town affected would have to hold its own referendum. One way to sell it to them would be to tell them that they're playing their part for Palestine. And maybe anyone born in the year of the vote or before could retain their Israeli passport. I don't know. There would have to be some sort of 'package' as an inducement. You can't simply draw a border around people against their will.

The settlers, on the other hand, are a whole different can of worms, legally, historically, etc. If the Palestinians want them to stay, they should be able to stay and maybe they too can have two passports for the first generation.

I propose to send them as far as its possible!
Another cancer of the country

And, of course, you understand that as an atheist, Tel Aviv queen, you're a bigger cancer for them.:lol:

I propose to send them as far as its possible!
Another cancer of the country

Eh what is it with israelis and moving populations...


Settlers, as extremist, harmful and dangerous as they are, are human beings. They are not soldiers occupying a zone but families with children who go to school. Maale Adumim is more than just a settlement, it's a complete city.

Forcing 500 000 people to leave their homes is a crime (according to international law), regardless of who it is.

No, what should be changed is of course the inequality between the settlers and the palestinians. Neither should have more rights than the other, neither should have exclusive districts or an exclusive right to some resource (as it is the case with water). And both should be entitled to protection of course.

The problem is not them as individuals but the whole system which has encouraged them to settle there and in which they were socialized to the idea that palestinians were second-rate human beings at best, horrible invaders at worst.

And of course it's out of the question to make palestinians who live inside Israel move anywhere.

Eh what is it with israelis and moving populations...


Settlers, as extremist, harmful and dangerous as they are, are human beings. They are not soldiers occupying a zone but families with children who go to school. Maale Adumim is more than just a settlement, it's a complete city.

Forcing 500 000 people to leave their homes is a crime (according to international law), regardless of who it is.

No, what should be changed is of course the inequality between the settlers and the palestinians. Neither should have more rights than the other, neither should have exclusive districts or an exclusive right to some resource (as it is the case with water). And both should be entitled to protection of course.

The problem is not them as individuals but the whole system which has encouraged them to settle there and in which they were socialized to the idea that palestinians were second-rate human beings at best, horrible invaders at worst.

And of course it's out of the question to make palestinians who live inside Israel move anywhere.

What do you care? Anything that leaves Israel intact would, in itself, constitute an unacceptable injustice, would it not? It's nothing more than a nationalist construct based on a 'f*cking ideology.' And if Israelis have learned anything about moving populations, perhaps they've done so from French Colonial Africa.

As much as this might surprise you since when I have a debate with you you'd generally rather put words into my mouth and debate with that rather than with what I actually say, if I am opposed to zionism it is NEVER against israeli jews. Fighting against zionism, and through it, exposing some nationalist myths as you say, is fighting against an unjust domination. It is not fighting against the dominant for what he is naturally (which would be idiotic since, as a jew, I am much closer to the dominants than to the dominated) but against his position.

On some accounts, even if much less so than for the palestinians, it is also for the own good of israeli jews that we should fight against zionism (a la Avraham Burg), and even to a lesser extend, for our own good as jews as a whole.

That would have to be done with their consent. Each Israeli-Arab village/town affected would have to hold its own referendum. One way to sell it to them would be to tell them that they're playing their part for Palestine. And maybe anyone born in the year of the vote or before could retain their Israeli passport. I don't know. There would have to be some sort of 'package' as an inducement. You can't simply draw a border around people against their will.

The settlers, on the other hand, are a whole different can of worms, legally, historically, etc. If the Palestinians want them to stay, they should be able to stay and maybe they too can have two passports for the first generation.


The border drawing should be done as a part on agreement with the PA other wise it will be a disaster like Lebanon and Gaza, well it would be a disaster anyway, but would give Israel more levrage. You can evcute people by force against their will but not draw a line to exclude those that hate Israel?
Should evry Israeli vote on a peace deal? budget? etc.
There should be economic insentive to let other Arabs in Israel to leave,
so that two nations for two people can become a reality and not another
Yugoslviya in the making.

On some accounts, even if much less so than for the palestinians, it is also for the own good of israeli jews that we should fight against zionism (a la Avraham Burg), and even to a lesser extend, for our own good as jews as a whole.

LOL
Burg became an anti zionist sfter his request for a pansion and a driver for the rest of his miserable life, from the zionist state was rejected. He is a symbol of the left, rich, spoiled hatefull child that achieved nothing by himself and is full of resentment towards his people. This type of neo socialst exist all over Europe and North America. More and more people starting to see them for what they truly are and thats the only good new in recent years.

The border drawing should be done as a part on agreement with the PA other wise it will be a disaster like Lebanon and Gaza, well it would be a disaster anyway, but would give Israel more levrage. You can evcute people by force against their will but not draw a line to exclude those that hate Israel?
Should evry Israeli vote on a peace deal? budget? etc.
There should be economic insentive to let other Arabs in Israel to leave,
so that two nations for two people can become a reality and not another
Yugoslviya in the making.

Alon, my point is that I don't feel that the settlers have the same rights as do Israeli citizens within the Green Line, whether they be Arab, Jew or otherwise. That is where we differ. As such, the settlers should stay in "Palestine" only with Palestinian consent, and Israeli citizens should have the border re-drawn around them only with their consent. Maybe the Israeli, Palestinian, and, let's face it, American negotiators can finesse this differently. If so, kol hakavod.

^^ You could always have a population exchange with various restrictions like Greece and Turkey had in 1923.

As much as this might surprise you since when I have a debate with you you'd generally rather put words into my mouth and debate with that rather than with what I actually say, if I am opposed to zionism it is NEVER against israeli jews. Fighting against zionism, and through it, exposing some nationalist myths as you say, is fighting against an unjust domination. It is not fighting against the dominant for what he is naturally (which would be idiotic since, as a jew, I am much closer to the dominants than to the dominated) but against his position.

On some accounts, even if much less so than for the palestinians, it is also for the own good of israeli jews that we should fight against zionism (a la Avraham Burg), and even to a lesser extend, for our own good as jews as a whole.

But isn't Israel itself an unjust domination? And why would you identify, more so or less so, with one foreign people/construct or another in some far off land anyway? And what do you mean 'Jews as a whole?' I thought there's no such thing.

Alon, my point is that I don't feel that the settlers have the same rights as do Israeli citizens within the Green Line, whether they be Arab, Jew or otherwise. That is where we differ. As such, the settlers should stay in "Palestine" only with Palestinian consent, and Israeli citizens should have the border re-drawn around them only with their consent. Maybe the Israeli, Palestinian, and, let's face it, American negotiators can finesse this differently. If so, kol hakavod.

So anyone you don't like should have their right taken. Those are Israeli tax paying citizens that moved legaly after government law allowed too, they serve in the army and die for the nation, but you don't think that's good enough? what if they think Israelis in Tel Aviv don't deserve anything?

But isn't Israel itself an unjust domination? And why would you identify, more so or less so, with one foreign people/construct or another in some far off land anyway? And what do you mean 'Jews as a whole?' I thought there's no such thing.

Have I said there is no such thing? Admitting that something is a construct does not mean it doesn't exist.

I am and feel french, although I know that the french identity is a construction dating from the french revolution, taking it's roots in the absolutist monarchy.

"Israel", how you mentioned it in this post is too vague of a term. If you mean the state and it's laws and institutions, than this state is a tool used for domination, and yes I think it should be deeply reformed.

If you mean "Israel" as the idea and identity on which most jews citizen of the state identify with, It's not easily changeable and even if, on some accounts, it justifies domination, I am uterly convinced that we can abolish the existing relations of power in the area without "erasing" Israel.

If you mean Israel as the society in which these people live and were socialised in, well some things are changeable and others are not, like all societies, it is full of dominant/dominated relations that are condemnable, with the domination exercised over palestinian society being more important and global. But most everyone wants to change the social order in a society, dominants, dominated. In the case of Israel everybody wants so as well.

LOL
Burg became an anti zionist sfter his request for a pansion and a driver for the rest of his miserable life, from the zionist state was rejected. He is a symbol of the left, rich, spoiled hatefull child that achieved nothing by himself and is full of resentment towards his people. This type of neo socialst exist all over Europe and North America. More and more people starting to see them for what they truly are and thats the only good new in recent years.

I am not a fan of Burg and I think there are many more interesting people to come out of Israel who are vocal on the whole issue and who try to theorize and study the realities of zionism. I only gave Burg as an example because he is well known and almost every criticism I have heard him make of zionism (although he does not define himself as anti zionist) and israeli society he did so first as to liberate jews from this system.

So anyone you don't like should have their right taken. Those are Israeli tax paying citizens that moved legaly after government law allowed too, they serve in the army and die for the nation, but you don't think that's good enough? what if they think Israelis in Tel Aviv don't deserve anything?

It's not about me liking them or not. The settlers have no standing in international law, by international consensus, and by an emerging Israeli consensus. And they certainly have no standing by Palestinian consensus and it is with the Palestinians that a deal must be hammered out. But they should be treated with compassion and relocated, where necessary, as smoothly as possible.

I am uterly convinced that we can abolish the existing relations of power in the area without "erasing" Israel.


Please, enlighten me. By your logic, expounded upon via innumerable posts, I don't see how.

Eh what is it with israelis and moving populations...


Settlers, as extremist, harmful and dangerous as they are, are human beings. They are not soldiers occupying a zone but families with children who go to school. Maale Adumim is more than just a settlement, it's a complete city.

Forcing 500 000 people to leave their homes is a crime (according to international law), regardless of who it is.

No, what should be changed is of course the inequality between the settlers and the palestinians. Neither should have more rights than the other, neither should have exclusive districts or an exclusive right to some resource (as it is the case with water). And both should be entitled to protection of course.

.

500,000?????since when?smth around 250,000...
but for sure not to move such settlements like Gush Atzion,Maale Adumim and Ariel
but we doenst need settlements with 80 people...

500,000?????since when?smth around 250,000...
but for sure not to move such settlements like Gush Atzion,Maale Adumim and Ariel
but we doenst need settlements with 80 people...

If you include East Jerusalem, there are about 450 000 settlers. And Ariel will probably have to go or the people there be offered Palestinian citizenship.

^^noway there are 200,000 jews in E.Jerusalem!
why Ariel should go to Palestine?

Please, enlighten me. By your logic, expounded upon via innumerable posts, I don't see how.

Well, with my knowledge of the situation on the ground, I honestly think that the solution is neither the two state solution nor the one state one, but something in between that keeps the advantages of both projects without having their flaws.

Ie some sort of confederation (not a binational state) where two states, Israel (reformed) and Palestine (created) would cooperate under the jurisdiction of a higher institution protecting both from the other and managing the key issues that are the palestinian refugees and jewish immigrants, the jews in Palestine and the palestinians in Israel, water distribution and so on.

If you include East Jerusalem, there are about 450 000 settlers. And Ariel will probably have to go or the people there be offered Palestinian citizenship.

I'm trying to find the logic in creating a civil war with thousands of deaths?
Why on earth do you want to see that, sounds like pure evil to me.
E. Jerusalem Arabs go to Palestine, Ariel Jews go to Israel, no one loses their homes and stays with the country they want to be in.
So the question is why are you against a logical, safe solution and support a known recipe for bloodshade. Ironicaly, I'm the one called a right wing nut for not wanting large scale death and destruction, go figure.

^^noway there are 200,000 jews in E.Jerusalem!
why Ariel should go to Palestine?

Yes. There are about 200 000 Jews in East Jerusalem and about 250 000 in the (rest of) the West Bank, 70% in the big settlement blocks and 30% scattered in small settlements throughout Yehuda/Shomron - West Bank. That 30% equals 75 000 people. How they'll be re-located only god knows.

As for Ariel, it's very far inside Shomron and probably makes a future Palestine non-contiguous, meaning it would cut northern Palestine in two; unacceptable to the Palestinians and, indeed, the world.

Yes. There are about 200 000 Jews in East Jerusalem and about 250 000 in the (rest of) the West Bank, 70% in the big settlement blocks and 30% scattered in small settlements throughout Yehuda/Shomron - West Bank. That 30% equals 75 000 people. How they'll be re-located only god knows.

As for Ariel, it's very far inside Shomron and probably makes a future Palestine non-contiguous, meaning it would cut northern Palestine in two; unacceptable to the Palestinians and, indeed, the world.

Very far? its like 30KM from Tel Aviv.

neither the two state solution nor the one state one
Neither here nor there, as exists now, which ain't working.

Israel (reformed)
Do tell.

under the jurisdiction of a higher institution
Run by whom? The French?

I'm trying to find the logic in creating a civil war with thousands of deaths?
Why on earth do you want to see that, sounds like pure evil to me.
E. Jerusalem Arabs go to Palestine, Ariel Jews go to Israel, no one loses their homes and stays with the country they want to be in.
So the question is why are you against a logical, safe solution and support a known recipe for bloodshade. Ironicaly, I'm the one called a right wing nut for not wanting large scale death and destruction, go figure.
If there's a way to keep Ariel within Israel that the Palestinians can accept, I'm all for it. But I don't think it's possible. Ariel is well within the West Bank, almost in the center of Samaria. And a 'finger' around it is not in Israel's long-term interest either. Remember, an agreement has to address the needs of both sides. You're only considering/conceiving of Israeli's interests which is understandable but not the way to cut a deal.

(Don't get me started on Shiloah/Silwan. That one's impossible for me. I like to think of myself as a pragmatist but it would be inconceivable to give up the City of David. Good luck with that one, Hillary.:ohno:)

zionism it is NEVER against israeli jews.

Hombre, y los sionistas son Israelies, todos los que emigran a israel es por eso. Decir "estoy encontra del sionismo pero nunca encontra de los isaelies" es decir que odio a Perú pero no tengo nada con los peruanos" .

Fighting against zionism,


Como uno puede ser Israeli y luchar contra la propia idiologia que te tiene allí


through it, exposing some nationalist myths as you say, is fighting against an unjust domination. It is not fighting against the dominant for what he is naturally (which would be idiotic since, as a jew, I am much closer to the dominants than to the dominated) but against his position.

On some accounts, even if much less so than for the palestinians, it is also for the own good of israeli jews that we should fight against zionism (a la Avraham Burg), and even to a lesser extend, for our own good as jews as a whole.



Avraham burg no es un antisionista, es un pacifista sionistas exisitimos de derechas izquierda y centro



Saludos

pd: por lo demas dudo mucho que seas iejudim, lo dudo mucho :bash:

^^If there's a way to keep Ariel within Israel that the Palestinians can accept, I'm all for it. But I don't think it's possible. Ariel is well within the West Bank, almost in the center of Samaria. And a 'finger' around it is not in Israel's long-term interest either. Remember, an agreement has to address the needs of both sides. You're only considering/conceiving of Israeli's interests which is understandable but not the way to cut a deal.

(Don't get me started on Shiloah/Silwan. That one's impossible for me. I like to think of myself as a pragmatist but it would be inconceivable to give up the City of David. Good luck with that one, Hillary.:ohno:)


I would rather see the arab neighborhoods of E. Jerusalem become part of palestine as well as the triangle area and keep ariel and the Areva.
That would mean 400K less arabs Israel has to feed and support in return for them supporting hamas.

^^Areva? :?

In the same way that not all settlers are religious, not all Palestinians support the Hamas. All the less inside Israel.

^^Areva? :?

In the same way that not all settlers are religious, not all Palestinians support the Hamas. All the less inside Israel.

Sorry, I ment Arava.
Not all of them support hams, but as the election showed, the majority does.

What do you mean "keep the Arava"? It was deemed part of Israel since 1947.

What do you mean "keep the Arava"? It was deemed part of Israel since 1947.


Good to know. I mean those settlement on the west side of the Jordan river.

The settlements on the west bank of the Jordan aren't part of the Aravah, the Aravah extends north to the Dead Sea and ends there. Simply call it "the settlements on the west side of the Jordan river". Now I see what you meant.

Good to know. I mean those settlement on the west side of the Jordan river.

Ain't going to happen. There is no way the Palestinians, the Arab World, and the rest of the world will accept a Palestine completely encircled by Israel. That said, there may be some sort of NATO and/or peace-keeping force placed in the Jordan Valley to help ensure Israel's security.

Ain't going to happen. There is no way the Palestinians, the Arab World, and the rest of the world will accept a Palestine completely encircled by Israel. That said, there may be some sort of NATO and/or peace-keeping force placed in the Jordan Valley to help ensure Israel's security.

No Arabs or Mulsom can accept Israel period. Try drilling that to your skull
until it gets in. There will be deals and deals and Israel will giv and give until it no loger can defend it self and will be wiped of the map. The majority of Palestinians voted for hamas that doesn't recoginize and inch of a Jewish land and other then an Arab diocator and king that sign peace agreements with Israel, no one in the Arab street will ever recognize Israel. Ever.
You can put the Peace forces from Lebanon that under their watchfull eye and Tzipi Livni's brilliant deal, the hezzbolla tripled their rockets.

No Arabs or Mulsom can accept Israel period. Try drilling that to your skull
until it gets in. There will be deals and deals and Israel will giv and give until it no loger can defend it self and will be wiped of the map. The majority of Palestinians voted for hamas that doesn't recoginize and inch of a Jewish land and other then an Arab diocator and king that sign peace agreements with Israel, no one in the Arab street will ever recognize Israel. Ever.
You can put the Peace forces from Lebanon that under their watchfull eye and Tzipi Livni's brilliant deal, the hezzbolla tripled their rockets.

A peace deal is not about love but mutual interest. Your worldview is totally defeatist and a recipe for endless conflict with no winners and only losers. That game is over. Hillary will see to that.

A peace deal is not about love but mutual interest. Your worldview is totally defeatist and a recipe for endless conflict with no winners and only losers. That game is over. Hillary will see to that.

It could defintly be a game over for Israel, but it ain't going to be from Hilary. She knows the stratigic value of Israel and unlike you don't wish it to be destroyed.
You calling me a defeatist is like Chamberlain calling Churchill a defeatist.
You want a piece of paper the wave and yell , we got peace in our time when a big war looming. In the Middle East there are only winners, losers disappear to the history books, you don't have the mental capacity to stand for what is yours and see it through until you win. Yes, you can destroy terroism, Arafat was done and over with, Intenationaly and in the Arabs world, until the Israeli left sent him a life saver.

As recent event in Israel show, those that choose disgrace over war will get war and digrace. Too bad people don't learn from their own mistakes.

It could defintly be a game over for Israel, but it ain't going to be from Hilary. She knows the stratigic value of Israel and unlike you don't wish it to be destroyed.
You calling me a defeatist is like Chamberlain calling Churchill a defeatist.
You want a piece of paper the wave and yell , we got peace in our time when a big war looming. In the Middle East there are only winners, losers disappear to the history books, you don't have the mental capacity to stand for what is yours and see it through until you win. Yes, you can destroy terroism, Arafat was done and over with, Intenationaly and in the Arabs world, until the Israeli left sent him a life saver.

As recent event in Israel show, those that choose disgrace over war will get war and digrace. Too bad people don't learn from their own mistakes.

Well, there you go. That's the split. There's not much else to say. You're on the Right. I'm on the Left, though I would consider myself a centrist. I respect your views but disagree with them. I stand up for Tel Aviv not Kiryat Arba.

Well, there you go. That's the split. There's not much else to say. You're on the Right. I'm on the Left, though I would consider myself a centrist. I respect your views but disagree with them. I stand up for Tel Aviv not Kiryat Arba.

Ok, You stand for Tel Aviv state, so far is clear.
Lets say Israel gives 100% of the west bank, removes 500,000 setllers, gives East Jerusalem and the Kotel and takes back 3 miilion Palestinians and get that piece of paper with the words peace agreement on it.
Where do you see Israel 5 years after the peace deal?

Ok, You stand for Tel Aviv state, so far is clear.
Lets say Israel gives 100% of the west bank, removes 500,000 setllers, gives East Jerusalem and the Kotel and takes back 3 miilion Palestinians and get that piece of paper with the words peace agreement on it.
Where do you see Israel 5 years after the peace deal?

Who says I propose that? I don't. Neither does anyone else, except Nasrallah, Ahmedinejad, Hamas, and, maybe, eklips.

Who says I propose that? I don't. Neither does anyone else, except Nasrallah, Ahmedinejad, Hamas, and, maybe, eklips.

ummm OK, You still refuse to believe what Nasrallah, Ahmedinejad, Hamas, and eklips are saying. No peace deal what or ever, no recognition, nothing.
Do you understand it? Try been saying it since 1979 but somehow you still don't get it.

The peace propsal I wrote before is deal that the Arabs and the Palestinians want and offerd (plus Israeli pullout from the Golan Heights to 1949 borders), if you refuse such a deal then you are against peace.
You can't say you want a peace deal but not give Arabs what they want.

ummm OK, You still refuse to believe what Nasrallah, Ahmedinejad, Hamas, and eklips are saying. No peace deal what or ever, no recognition, nothing.
Do you understand it? Try been saying it since 1979 but somehow you still don't get it.

The peace propsal I wrote before is deal that the Arabs and the Palestinians want and offerd (plus Israeli pullout from the Golan Heights to 1949 borders), if you refuse such a deal then you are against peace.
You can't say you want a peace deal but not give Arabs what they want.

A middle ground will be found between the maximal demands of both sides. Everyone knows the parameters of an agreement.

1. Division of Jerusalem. How? To be negotiated.
2. Withdrawal to more or less the Green Line with the big settlement blocks staying inside Israel and compensatory land swaps. How? To be negotiated.
3. Compensation for Palestinian refugees; repatriation of refugees to the new Palestine and other countries; possible symbolic 'return' of a few thousand refugees to Israel (maybe 10-20,000 for family reunification purposes); possible recognition of Jewish refugees from Arab lands. How? To be negotiated.
4. Demilitarized Palestine. How? To be negotiated.
5. Security guarantees for Israel. How? To be negotiated.
6. Guaranteed corridor between Gaza and the West Bank. How? To be negotiated.
7. Division / joint management of water resources. How? To be negotiated.
8. Protocols for dealing with antiquities. How? To be negotiated.
9. Full recognition and normalization of diplomatic relations between Israel and all Arab (and possibly Muslim) countries (assuming a deal can be hammered-out with Syria too). How? To be negotiated.

End result: 2 states for 2 peoples with Yerushalayim and Al Quds as 2 capitals in a split but open city. Israel on 78% of historic Land of Israel/Palestine; Palestine on 22%.

A middle ground will be found between the maximal demands of both sides. Everyone knows the parameters of an agreement.

1. Division of Jerusalem. How? To be negotiated.
2. Withdrawal to more or less the Green Line with the big settlement blocks staying inside Israel and compensatory land swaps. How? To be negotiated.
3. Compensation for Palestinian refugees; repatriation of refugees to the new Palestine and other countries; possible symbolic 'return' of a few thousand refugees to Israel (maybe 10-20,000 for family reunification purposes); possible recognition of Jewish refugees from Arab lands. How? To be negotiated.
4. Demilitarized Palestine. How? To be negotiated.
5. Security guarantees for Israel. How? To be negotiated.
6. Guaranteed corridor between Gaza and the West Bank. How? To be negotiated.
7. Division / joint management of water resources. How? To be negotiated.
8. Protocols for dealing with antiquities. How? To be negotiated.
9. Full recognition and normalization of diplomatic relations between Israel and all Arab (and possibly Muslim) countries (assuming a deal can be hammered-out with Syria too). How? To be negotiated.

End result: 2 states for 2 peoples with Yerushalayim and Al Quds as 2 capitals in a split but open city. Israel on 78% of historic Land of Israel/Palestine; Palestine on 22%.

That's actualy the Israel betenu platform you Facist.
Any palestinian leader to agree with repatriation of refugees to the new Palestine and other countries is dead before the ink will dry.

BTW
Who are you goingto sign this agreement with? Hamas won the lection and won't recognize past agreement or Israel, let alone sign a peace deal.
Abbas is a lame duc whose terms expires Jan 9th.

That's actualy the Israel betenu platform you Facist.
Any palestinian leader to agree with repatriation of refugees to the new Palestine and other countries is dead before the ink will dry.

BTW
Who are you goingto sign this agreement with? Hamas won the lection and won't recognize past agreement or Israel, let alone sign a peace deal.
Abbas is a lame duc whose terms expires Jan 9th.

All these problems are fixable.

Anyone thinking of splitting Jerusalem is living in the 'luz'

Anyone thinking of splitting Jerusalem is living in the 'luz'

It's already split. When was the last time you went to Shuafat?

All these problems are fixable.

What's fixable? the hamas recognizing Israel?
You don't let reallity bother you too much , eh?
BTW
I support the Eastern Neighborhoods of Jerusalem being TX to Arab as long as Jew can access the Temple mount and the ancient City is in Israeli hands.

What's fixable? the hamas recognizing Israel?
You don't let reallity bother you too much , eh?
BTW
I support the Eastern Neighborhoods of Jerusalem being TX to Arab as long as Jew can access the Temple mount and the Kotel is in Israeli hands forever.

1. The Hamas issue can be dealt with. You'll see. It's all posturing.
2. I agree with you on Jerusalem. The Kotel is not a problem. The rest of the 'Holy Basin' of Jerusalem is a problem but can be worked out. No one will be completely satisfied with any solution. The key is to make majorities on both sides satisfied enough.

Hamas actually poses a greater dilemma for the Palestinians than for Israel. With proper coordination, the PA, Israel, Egypt, and the Americans can enter into a clever balancing act and deal with them. And, no, I'm not downplaying the security issues that Israel faces because of Hamas. I'm just trying to put it in perspective. Hezbollah is far more dangerous.

1. The Hamas issue can be dealt with. You'll see. It's all posturing.
2. I agree with you on Jerusalem. The Kotel is not a problem. The rest of the 'Holy Basin' of Jerusalem is a problem but can be worked out. No one will be completely satisfied with any solution. The key is to make majorities on both sides satisfied enough.

Hamas actually poses a greater dilemma for the Palestinians than for Israel. With proper coordination, the PA, Israel, Egypt, and the Americans can enter into a clever balancing act and deal with them. And, no, I'm not downplaying the security issues that Israel faces because of Hamas. I'm just trying to put it in perspective. Hezbollah is far more dangerous.

I don't think you know who the hamas is and from what Islamic function they came. If it could have been solved, Osama would have been meeting Bush for coffee. hamas leader live in countries that if they even hear that they are being double played, they woulnd hange every hamas member in their country from the balls.