I know this is kind of outside of Toronto proper, but wanted people to see it, especially since these forums are so divided up these days. If the mods feel it is better off in the Ontario forum, please feel free to move it.

Cash fare is going up to $3.25 for a single adult ride, by far the most expensive in the GTA. Tickets are going up by $2 for a 10 pack to $26!!! :eek2:

This is only for single zone fares, two-zone fares are even more expensive...

Various municipal, provincial, and federal elections haven't slowed these guys down from raising fares, so I suppose a little recession wouldn't have any affect on their fare increase strategies.

What really pisses me off is that they blame "operational costs" as a leading reason for this fare increase. Last time I checked, with fuel costs down their operating costs should be near a 5 year low.

http://www.yrt.ca/news/MyTransit_Winter0809_final.pdf

Own a car now, but still have a few YRT tickets in my wallet. Quite confident that once I finish with them, I will not be purchasing a new set (still won't hesitate to take the TTC into the city though).

EDIT: I hope it gets to the point where GO decides to run their 'Yonge B' bus service all day between North York and Newmarket. Would definitely put YRT in their place, and probably force some management changes too.

The cost-recovery ratio in York Region is less than 40%, so operational expenses are the main cause. Fuel is only a small part of it. The only way to cut improve cost-recovery without raising fares is to cut services, and that would lose more riders than a fare increase would.

Isn't MT raising fares soon?

TTC is having a fare freeze, but they have cost-recovery up at around 75%... more wiggle room than YRT.

Wow the prices are crazy... and funny how Vancourites were complaining about $2.50 one zone fares. Is this the most expensive transit fares in the country?

I have a feeling the low cost recovery ratio can be blamed by the Viva BRT proof-of-payment system. I wouldn't be surprised if the fare evasion rates of Viva are extremely high.

Viva's fare evasion rate I've heard could be as high as 10%, in stark contrast to GO's 1%.

Coincidentally, I am on a Viva bus as I post this.:lol:

Humorous if it weren't so sad isn't it? TTC's recovery ratio is up around 75% and 'if only the upper levels of government were to return to funding transit would the TTC be the world class system it once was'. Including proper expansion the the streetcar and subway network.

YRT OTOH has had lot's of provincial funding, plus a PPP agreement (for ops IIRC) and still can't get it's ratio up over 40%. Something is not right with this mix, is YRT being that flippent with it's spending? Even when considering the lower ridership numbers of a suburban system vs the TTC's more urban system?

Transportation has recently become politically popular after a long era of being the last thing in line for any funding. York Region is particularly gung-ho in this department and are, as far as I can tell, willing to subsidize it to kingdom come if it helps the region's transit woes. Given the politics, cutting service is unthinkable! Whether or not this starts to pay off may not be clear until the rapidways start operating. Hwy7 East and Yonge North will be the first ones to open, both should be operational by 2010.

Humorous if it weren't so sad isn't it? TTC's recovery ratio is up around 75% and 'if only the upper levels of government were to return to funding transit would the TTC be the world class system it once was'. Including proper expansion the the streetcar and subway network.

YRT OTOH has had lot's of provincial funding, plus a PPP agreement (for ops IIRC) and still can't get it's ratio up over 40%. Something is not right with this mix, is YRT being that flippent with it's spending? Even when considering the lower ridership numbers of a suburban system vs the TTC's more urban system?

I'm beginning to wonder myself. Also to note that YRT bus drivers make less than other GTA drivers, yet require previous training and experience (TTC will train from scratch). So we have underpaid drivers, diesel fuel at its lowest price in half a decade, funding from several public and private sources, one of the most expensive single fare (local) transit fares in the country, and they can only meet 40% operating costs from fares?!?

I'm seriously thinking of contacting the provincial ombudsman to do an investigation of how YRT is spending our tax dollars.

PS: Did some browsing on GO Transit's website, and it is now cheaper to take the Yonge B bus from Newmarket and Aurora to north-central Richmond Hill than it is for a 2-zone YRT fare!!!

^Suburban servicing is very expensive.

We can complain about the TTC all we want but it was servicing the suburbs that really hurt them.

Please tell me this won't affect Brampton/Mississauga's fare schema in any way nor our ability to transfer onto the joint BT/YRT 77 Highway 7 bus. :no:

Given how few York Regionites utilize their public transit system already, you'd think they'd pull the opposite and actually lower fares in a bid to attract new riders (I'm sure there are ways they could enforce/regulate a flat fare rate per fare zone York Region wide~ Vaughan-Woodbridge/ Concord-King City/ Thornhill-Richmond Hill-Oak Ridges/ Unionville-Markham-Stoufville/ northern territories~ $1.50/2hrs, plus $0.50 to interchange into the next fare zone) :ohno:

Instead we get jipped by cost recovery via preying upon the dollars of those who can't even afford to own a car. Pitiful. :|

Like they care? Most people in the region don't vote in municipal elections, the turnout in York is about 20%, and most people can't even name their own mayor. No wonder they can get away with whatever they please.

Oh yeah, but it's a great place to live!! :cheers:

Oh yeah and the reason they're raising fares isn't because they want more revenue, they're trying to decrease overcrowding on the buses. I heard one of their routes had more than 12 passengers on it!!!

I know that in Metro Vancouver, whenever they had to raise fares they raised the rate of individual fares proportionatly higher for monthly passes to encourage people to but the monthly passes.

What are the current regular fares & passes for the two York Region zones and what will they be going to?

Like they care? Most people in the region don't vote in municipal elections, the turnout in York is about 20%, and most people can't even name their own mayor. No wonder they can get away with whatever they please.

Oh yeah, but it's a great place to live!! Oh yeah and the reason they're raising fares isn't because they want more revenue, they're trying to decrease overcrowding on the buses. I heard one of their routes had more than 12 passengers on it!!!

Aw yes, because there's no better logic than an ill-logic! :hammer: To paraphrase the thread title:

"In a time when owning and maintaining a private mode of transport is vastly getting out-of-reach of many average Canadians, YRT to commit a brain+:fart:!!"

I know that in Metro Vancouver, whenever they had to raise fares they raised the rate of individual fares proportionatly higher for monthly passes to encourage people to but the monthly passes.

What are the current regular fares & passes for the two York Region zones and what will they be going to?

Toronto's the complete opposite. They kept the cash fare the same at $2.75, but raised tickets/tokens by $0.10 and hiked the monthly metropass up to a staggering $109~ the price only justifible if one commutes in excess of 44 trips per month. I'd imagine prices will soon inflate again as the TTC seems to raise fares on an biannual scale these days. :ohno:

For YRT specifically, all the info you need is right here (http://www.yrt.ca/index1.asp). :yes:

For me personally, a monthly pass is unappealing because I'd never utilize it enough times within 30 days to get my money's worth. However an annual pass would be intriguing.

^Suburban servicing is very expensive.

We can complain about the TTC all we want but it was servicing the suburbs that really hurt them.

How can it be THAT more expensive? YRT's ridership is quite impressive considering its low frequencies. Bus drivers are paid less, and considering its suburban there is generally less traffic to deal with (lower operating and maintenance costs). I can understand where you are coming from if this was a small city or suburban US transit operator where the most frequent route runs every 30 minutes and sees no more than 10 passengers per bus, but this is not the case with YRT.

While there are routes like this, there are many routes that suffer from overcrowding, even though the frequency is at best every 30 minutes!

Please tell me this won't affect Brampton/Mississauga's fare schema in any way nor our ability to transfer onto the joint BT/YRT 77 Highway 7 bus.

Given how few York Regionites utilize their public transit system already, you'd think they'd pull the opposite and actually lower fares in a bid to attract new riders (I'm sure there are ways they could enforce/regulate a flat fare rate per fare zone York Region wide~ Vaughan-Woodbridge/ Concord-King City/ Thornhill-Richmond Hill-Oak Ridges/ Unionville-Markham-Stoufville/ northern territories~ $1.50/2hrs, plus $0.50 to interchange into the next fare zone)

Instead we get jipped by cost recovery via preying upon the dollars of those who can't even afford to own a car. Pitiful.

The 77 bus should not be affected. YRT fares were already higher than Brampton's, so I don't see how this would change things.

With that said, you have a point. Student fares have been frozen at $19 for several years if I recall, while adult fares continue to increase. So not only is this a big F-U to adults who do not own a car or wish to take transit, but high school grads not going away to university are welcomed with a 37% fare increase!!! So basically YRT is saying to young people that if you are too young or old to drive, we understand. But if your mommy and daddy didn't buy you a car for your 16th birthday, you had better bend over!!!

You'd think with gas price falling you wouldn't see a fare increase.

That is insane. I like to take a YRT just to enjoy smooth viva buss.

I bet you will see more people riding viva for free. Getting on it without the ticket. I love to feel that fear in the air when the boys in blue show up. ha ha

^Suburban servicing is very expensive.

We can complain about the TTC all we want but it was servicing the suburbs that really hurt them.

TTC has the second highest cost recovery ratio in North America. GO has the highest despite servicing the 905.

Fares are going up not just because of transit costs, but also because of overall municipal budget issues. Remember not only has the province still not fully uploaded transit operating costs, but they still have not uploaded health and social service costs either.

Until the province takes back responsibility for funding these, municipalities, given their limited revenue options, will continue to rely more and more on user fees, which means continually increasing transit fares.

TTC has the second highest cost recovery ratio in North America. GO has the highest despite servicing the 905.

Fares are going up not just because of transit costs, but also because of overall municipal budget issues. Remember not only has the province still not fully uploaded transit operating costs, but they still have not uploaded health and social service costs either.

Until the province takes back responsibility for funding these, municipalities, given their limited revenue options, will continue to rely more and more on user fees, which means continually increasing transit fares.

I think Ontario is having problems with finances at the moment... so I wouldn't expect anything to happen. If there is anyone that should help, it's the feds.

I think Ontario is having problems with finances at the moment... so I wouldn't expect anything to happen. If there is anyone that should help, it's the feds.

I'd like to think they'd help, if only for the optics. After saying they wouldn't run a deficit, they realize that they'll have to sooner rather than later. Coupled with the loss in revenue from the new tax-free savings account and the rumoured tax cuts Flaherty has planned to stimulate the economy we could see the feds crying broke and renegging on the scant funding promises they have committed to.

TTC has the second highest cost recovery ratio in North America. GO has the highest despite servicing the 905.

What you're implying is that suburban transit is no more expensive than urban transit. How can that be possible? Please explain.

What you're implying is that suburban transit is no more expensive than urban transit. How can that be possible? Please explain.

There is no such thing as suburban transit. They are all urban transit. There is a Canadian Urban Transit Association and all the 905 systems are part of it. The TTC is part of it too, despite serving Scarborough.

And no, "suburban" transit is no more expensive than "urban" transit.

The 19 Hurontario is the most efficient bus route in the GTA, and it is not a TTC route, let alone an "urban" TTC route.

For example, Mississauga Transit's cost recovery ratio (60%) is higher than that of:

RATP (Paris)
CTA (Chicago)
STM (Montreal)
OC Transpo (Ottawa)
SEPTA (Philadelphia)
MBTA (Boston)

There is no such thing as suburban transit. They are all urban transit. There is a Canadian Urban Transit Association and all the 905 systems are part of it. The TTC is part of it too, despite serving Scarborough.

Don't forget about North York and Etobicoke.

What's up with suburbanites afraid of the word suburb? I'm sure we can all agree that there are significant differences between the way urban and suburban transit routes operate throughout the GTA.

And no, "suburban" transit is no more expensive than "urban" transit.

Since you're implying that a set level of service is implemented to satisfy ridership, of course it's no more expensive.

The 19 Hurontario is the most efficient bus route in the GTA, and it is not a TTC route, let alone an "urban" TTC route.

It would seem that there are more aspects to the cost recovery ratio than you would have one believe. If not then the most efficient bus route in the GTA couldn't possibly be in Mississauga.

wow this is a joke!! i use a combination of the YRT/GO to get downtown for school everyday. This has to make it the most expensive in the entire country (maybe even continent). Speaking from personal experience, yrt is the WORST service ever! buses are LATE and you miss your train, or they are ridiculously early and, again, you miss your train. I have to be at the bus stop 15 minutes before the "scheduled" time to arrive in hope that the bus will come. Sometimes (more frequent than you may think) buses dont even show up or they pass you while ur waiting at your stop!!! WTF. And i live near a street that would be considered a major route. Service is every 30 mins on my route and it takes me almost a 30 minute bus ride to do something i can do in 1/3 the time in a car. Why is it that vaughan city hall, esp the Mayor, cant get their act together (money is missing, spending is out of control, using the city credit card to pay for expensive dinners etc) and now we are seeing an increase in YRT fares? I want an investigation into this. The YRT offers NO discount for University students claiming that there is no university in York Region (despite the fact that many york region residents go to UofT, Rye or YorkU) and its service SUCKS!! Anyone who wants to complain about the TTC does not know how good they have it. I cannot wait until Vaughan Corporate Centre is a subway stop.


[/Rant]

Don't forget about North York and Etobicoke.

What's up with suburbanites afraid of the word suburb? I'm sure we can all agree that there are significant differences between the way urban and suburban transit routes operate throughout the GTA.

What are these differences? What are the major differences between the way an MT route operates and the way a TTC route operates? Is it the boarding? The type of bus?

No, I am not afraid of the word "suburb."

Mississauga is suburban. Mississauga is a suburb, plain and simple. The 905 is suburban. But their transit systems is not suburban. Because transit itself is the antithesis of suburban. Whether in suburbs or in inner city, transit promotes walking and reduces car trips, thereby reducing suburbanization and increasing density.

Does the 19 Hurontario promote car use and lower densities? If not then there is no meaningful difference between the type of service it provides and type of service provided by any TTC route.

It would seem that there are more aspects to the cost recovery ratio than you would have one believe.


That's the whole point. If the degree of suburbanization was the only factor then Hurontario wouldn't be a profitable route.

But their transit systems is not suburban. Because transit itself is the antithesis of suburban.
some suburbs predate automobiles. There were once streetcars going north to Major Mackenzie road in richmond hill.

TTC has the second highest cost recovery ratio in North America. GO has the highest despite servicing the 905.

Fares are going up not just because of transit costs, but also because of overall municipal budget issues. Remember not only has the province still not fully uploaded transit operating costs, but they still have not uploaded health and social service costs either.

Until the province takes back responsibility for funding these, municipalities, given their limited revenue options, will continue to rely more and more on user fees, which means continually increasing transit fares.

LOL are you aware that at one time the TTC not only payed for it's operational costs 100% from the fare box but also payed for it's capital budget too?

That ended once they started to serve the suburbs (the rise of the car didn't help too).

GO manages to make it's large fare recovery by simply making the cost of a ride astronomical. TRZ and I have in the past disagreed about the cost of PT. I believe that the fares on GO are excessive, he does not.


wow this is a joke!! i use a combination of the YRT/GO to get downtown for school everyday. This has to make it the most expensive in the entire country (maybe even continent). Speaking from personal experience, yrt is the WORST service ever! buses are LATE and you miss your train, or they are ridiculously early and, again, you miss your train. I have to be at the bus stop 15 minutes before the "scheduled" time to arrive in hope that the bus will come. Sometimes (more frequent than you may think) buses dont even show up or they pass you while ur waiting at your stop!!! WTF. And i live near a street that would be considered a major route. Service is every 30 mins on my route and it takes me almost a 30 minute bus ride to do something i can do in 1/3 the time in a car. Why is it that vaughan city hall, esp the Mayor, cant get their act together (money is missing, spending is out of control, using the city credit card to pay for expensive dinners etc) and now we are seeing an increase in YRT fares? I want an investigation into this. The YRT offers NO discount for University students claiming that there is no university in York Region (despite the fact that many york region residents go to UofT, Rye or YorkU) and its service SUCKS!! Anyone who wants to complain about the TTC does not know how good they have it. I cannot wait until Vaughan Corporate Centre is a subway stop.

You have my heart felt sympathies. (no sarcasm)

There is really 2 sides to the coin. GO is able to maintain it's high recovery ratio because it focuses mainly on peak period high volume trips. YRT OTOH has a stated goal of having transit available within 500 m of every resident, IIRC. Meaning that YRT has some ass poor performing routes that drag down the performance of things like VIVA Blue but that are necessary from a service point of view.

wow this is a joke!! i use a combination of the YRT/GO to get downtown for school everyday. This has to make it the most expensive in the entire country (maybe even continent). Speaking from personal experience, yrt is the WORST service ever! buses are LATE and you miss your train, or they are ridiculously early and, again, you miss your train. I have to be at the bus stop 15 minutes before the "scheduled" time to arrive in hope that the bus will come. Sometimes (more frequent than you may think) buses dont even show up or they pass you while ur waiting at your stop!!! WTF. And i live near a street that would be considered a major route. Service is every 30 mins on my route and it takes me almost a 30 minute bus ride to do something i can do in 1/3 the time in a car. Why is it that vaughan city hall, esp the Mayor, cant get their act together (money is missing, spending is out of control, using the city credit card to pay for expensive dinners etc) and now we are seeing an increase in YRT fares? I want an investigation into this. The YRT offers NO discount for University students claiming that there is no university in York Region (despite the fact that many york region residents go to UofT, Rye or YorkU) and its service SUCKS!! Anyone who wants to complain about the TTC does not know how good they have it. I cannot wait until Vaughan Corporate Centre is a subway stop.


[/Rant]

THIS!!!

However, you are more fortunate than you think. If you take the YRT to the GO train, it should only cost you 50 cents. But as someone who used YRT exclusively to get to Seneca@York and around the region when I lived at home (parents were VERY restrictive with car use), I know where you are coming from. Especially since it was a 20 minute walk from the Viva home - or a 10 minute bus ride on a bus that ran once every 30 minutes - and I would usually arrive at the transfer point 10 minutes early or 5 minutes late (this is assuming that the bus was on schedule :lol::ohno:)

I was doing some thinking on this, and the YRT really must re-evaluate its strategies. If their plan is to simply raise fares every year by a quarter, dollar or two, or $10 depending on fare purchased than they have some real problems. I 5 years a YRT fare will cost $4.50, 10 tickets at $36 (assuming continued $2 fare increases annually), or a monthly pass at $155!!! Even with inflation, these numbers are unacceptable - especially for service that has such pathetic frequencies.

Many smaller transit systems have similar frequencies, but their fares are far more reasonable. And some of the smaller exurbs YRT services (Keswick, Stouffville, etc) are very similar to small cities like Guelph and Peterborough. The difference is that their fares are about $2 while here they are $3.25!!!

This could also have major effects on transportation for the entire Toronto region. I know many here like to write off the suburbs, but it is foolish to do so. If in 5 years YRT reach these peaks, then we may see more York Region commuters driving into the city. This will put more stress on to our already stressed transportation infrastructure, and may even revitalize plans for inner-city highways. Or it may also encourage more sprawled employment centers, bleeding more jobs from the city and destroying our air quality.

stop and think about it for a bit, though

york region cities like to advertise low taxes on businesses, they don't have the land transfer tax or the car tax like toronto does. they've decided it would just be easier to get revenue from the poorest instead, the bus riders.

go rant at your city councilor, you are wasting your time to rant here.

GO manages to make it's large fare recovery by simply making the cost of a ride astronomical. TRZ and I have in the past disagreed about the cost of PT. I believe that the fares on GO are excessive, he does not.

Y'know, I may be willing to change my tune after I paid $10.25 to get from Square 1 to Unionville Station on the 407 GO service.

^LOL I don't believe it.

Well my main point is, most people here who ride transit are by choice riders who own their own cars.

When the transit fares are about the similar enough to parking then we are going to see people forget about the transit and just take their cars.

Its all subjective anyways.

^^ Not everyone Homer. Some people don't see the need to own a car at all, if they're able to live, work/school and recreate within proximity to reliable public transit. In addition to parking, there's the ever fluctuating gas bill, tune up/maintainence bill, tire change bill, car wash bill, insurance bill, odd ticketing/summons. Tally that all up we're talking $700/mth easy. Yup, almost a month's rent spent for what? :gaah:

As unreasonably high as public transit fares are getting, it's still at fraction per month the toll private transit is to the average joe's wallet. :yes:

LOL are you aware that at one time the TTC not only payed for it's operational costs 100% from the fare box but also payed for it's capital budget too?

That ended once they started to serve the suburbs (the rise of the car didn't help too).

There is no difference between the cost-recovery of surface (bus and streetcar) routes in old Toronto versus that of the former suburbs (Scarborough, etc). They are all around 60%. The information is all on the TTC website, you can see for yourself.

Again, the most efficient bus routes in the GTA are actually Hurontario and Yonge, both in the 905.

There is no difference between the cost-recovery of surface (bus and streetcar) routes in old Toronto versus that of the former suburbs (Scarborough, etc). They are all around 60%. The information is all on the TTC website, you can see for yourself.

Again, the most efficient bus routes in the GTA are actually Hurontario and Yonge, both in the 905.

Eh, in 10 minutes walking distance from my house, I have access to the following bus routes (listed by distance): the 512 St. Clair, 168 Symington, 127 Davenport, 47 Lansdowne, 41 Keele, 89 Weston, 26 Dupont, and the 40 Junction. All of them run at, or less than 5 minute frequencies during rush, and the 512 goes to the extreme by operating every 1 min & 50 seconds.

How's the quality of transit in your neighbourhood?

^^ Hey, I think you and I used to live very closeby of eachother (I lived near Lansdowne/Dupont for over four years before moving to Brampton). :)

"How's the quality of transit in your neighbourhood?"

There's a bus stop literally within a minute's walk from my house. I have easy access onto the 52 McMurchy and 1 Queen buses; and about 7-8 minutes walk over to the 2 Main bus as well the Brampton GO/VIA Stn. The 52 bus routes every 15-20 minutes all day until 7:30 PM (every half hour thereafter) and the Queen bus on schedule is every 10 minutes all-day til 10:00 PM but usually it comes more frequently than that during peak (every 6 minutes).

It's so easy to scam Brampton Transit, if you live in downtown Brampton. Just buy a 2 ride GO pass, and pay the 50 cent fare at the Downtown terminal.

It's nuts.

I am not saying to do it, but it's possible.

I have to agree with Dentrobate though. The transit fares may seem high, but compared to a car(assuming you have to buy one), it's is still a bargain, depending on where you live. I live in Midtown Toronto, and I can get home from Downtown to my place in under one hour, at 3:00am.

If someone gave me a car though.. Different story.

Eh, in 10 minutes walking distance from my house, I have access to the following bus routes (listed by distance): the 512 St. Clair, 168 Symington, 127 Davenport, 47 Lansdowne, 41 Keele, 89 Weston, 26 Dupont, and the 40 Junction. All of them run at, or less than 5 minute frequencies during rush, and the 512 goes to the extreme by operating every 1 min & 50 seconds.

How's the quality of transit in your neighbourhood?

I am talking fare recovery in the suburbs but now want to change the subject. Unless you can prove that providing service in the suburbs is what caused the TTC to stop being profitable, then really you shouldn't talk.

And also, I have to wonder if the TTC would still have higher cost-recovery than MT, YRT, et al. if it used same time-based transfers also...

Well excuse me, Mr. Doady. I was just trying to look at the big picture, but if you think having a good cost recovery rate and bad service is a good thing then good for you. If you think that Mississauga was built to be economically sustainable, that's also good for you. Because of the inner city's built form you can provide better service for less cost and serve more people better.

The GTA is not a typical North American metro area, and I acknowledge this. But if you want to compare two anomalies in the suburbs for the basis of a broad argument concerning the entire GTA then you must be mistaken. Sure Huontario is an OK bus route in terms of quality, but what about it's parallel counter-parts? Are they as successful? No.

In the GTA, Toronto is where the fares are lowest, service is the best and ridership is the highest. It provides a service that isn't provided to nearly the same extent in the 905.

Well excuse me, Mr. Doady. I was just trying to look at the big picture, but if you think having a good cost recovery rate and bad service is a good thing then good for you. If you think that Mississauga was built to be economically sustainable, that's also good for you. Because of the inner city's built form you can provide better service for less cost and serve more people better.

When the hell did I say any of this? I was simply disputing the claim that servicing the suburbs was what made the TTC stop being profitable. Please stop looking for things that aren't there and stop trying to be so antagonistic, seriously...

By saying that the TTC did not become less profitable as a result of servicing the suburbs you claim all of the above. Although the discussion started with that question, it moved on to the financial efficiency of transit in an urban setting versus a suburban setting.