I decided to start a new thread, after my last post regarding the new Marlins' Stadium. It is my wish list for Miami. Many of the ideas are not new, or even original. I just wanted to start a thread for dreamers like myself.

1. Signature skyscraper over 1000 ft tall

2. Observation deck -- either on top of tallest skyscraper, or an separate structure like the Space Needle

3. Central Park South - although I have no clue where to make one, Miami needs its own version of Central Park, Golden Gate Park, or Stanley Park in Vancouver BC

4. Permanent amusement park - similar to Navy Pier in Chicago, Pier 39 in San Francisco, La Ronde in Montreal, or Santa Monica Pier in California. I am not talking about a full blown theme park, but something filled with fun. I always thought Watson Island was a perfect spot for such a place. (Btw, Bayside does not fulfill my idea of the kind of amusement area I am talking about. Need some permanent place to take a date on a Ferris wheel ride)

5. A completed Metrorail system (no comment necessary)

6. Downtown streetcar system

7. Casino district (controverisal, I know)

8. World class parade/festival - something to fill the void from the loss of the OB parade.

9. Ferries to Cuba (could be reality soon)

10. An MLB baseball team called The Miami Marlins, playing in my old neighborhood...

Comments, or additions most welcome...!

The Embarcadero

City of Miami should annex unincorporated parts of Dade County. Greater population concentration on paper is a bigger draw to corporations looking for a new location to put their headquarters.

I agree about Watson Island--maybe one day "Jungle Island" will have a roller coaster or observation tower. Besides, they've technically got the 1000-foot height clearance from the FAA for a building that tall.

It's virtually impossible at this point to construct a park the size of Central Park in Miami--thousands upon thousands of people would need to be displaced, and it just isn't feasible. Besides, Miami already has Virginia Key & Crandon Park across the bay. And the air quality is so high in South Florida (#1 in the nation, I believe), that the region would be better off investing in small pocket parks and restoring the tree canopy.

Lastly, a signature downtown university (or cluster of universities) would be excellent for Miami. After observing the the life that college students pump into the city of Boston, it's one more thing that Miami is missing out on.

They are planning on building a permanent amusement park next to metrozoo. A bit out of the way but it would be a zoo, water park, and amusement park all next to eachother.

1. Incorporation of all unincorporated parts of Miami-Dade and of pointless mini cities such as West Miami, Virginia Gardens, El Portal, Sweetwater, etc, so we can really be that 2.6 million-large city we really are.

2. Creation of more parks throughout the city.

3. E-W line and Northern line of Metrorail.

4. Expansion of Tri-Rail to Homestead.

5. Miami Streetcar connecting Little Havana, Midtown, Design District, Upper Eastside, Grove, Downtown, Brickell and South Beach.

6. An urban university in Downtown (Miami College?).

7. FIU Stadium to be expanded to a mega stadium that's packed on gamedays.

8. No more suburban construction. End of story.

9. Improved public school system.

10. Improved English proficiency in Hispanic parts of town (Hialeah, Sweetwater and Little Havana).

11. Miami World Center.

12. More bike paths.

13. Bring more high-paying jobs to Miami.

14. More Asians in Miami. The more diversity the better lol!

15. I love Miami!

1. More tax revenue in order to afford excellent services. (that is, adding more payors to the tax base, efficient use of what we have, not increase of tax rates).
2. Sustained leadership to provide direction to the City and confidence to the Investor and Business class so that they invest in Miami. This will be the catalyst to provide #1 above.
3. Improved techincal programs at public high schools. For example: engage students by teaching mathematics as it relates to being a Mercedes Benz engine techician. More students will learn, more students will be qualified for a job immediately after school. Less students will drop out and commit crime.

1. Incorporation of all unincorporated parts of Miami-Dade and of pointless mini cities such as West Miami, Virginia Gardens, El Portal, Sweetwater, etc, so we can really be that 2.6 million-large city we really are.


That would go a long way to solving a lot of the issues we face. I would add to that removing the district elected County commission seats. There are too many little juristictions with a lot of power over little areas all looking out for just their little fenced in kingdoms oblivious to the big picture.

Most of the main ideas have already been mentioned. I agree with them all, especially the one of combining the unincorporated or small cities into one so that all the resources (tax money) can be pooled together. It would also eliminate conflicting agendas from small jurisdiction leaders as Dave mentions. Here are a few more I can think of:

1. Create simple programs or ways to inform the public of what's happening. Have one centralized office/website where people can go to find news on all decisions or votes made by our politicians. This way politicians can be 'in the limelight' and more open to suggestions or criticizes from the people. This is one way the people can be in a better position to elect compitent leaders and voice their opinion on matters.

2. I think the city should really push hard now to get large corporations to headquarter here. Due to the present economy many companies are restructuring and relocating. The city should solicit and give incentives to move here making it worth their while to expense moving costs (especially since commercial space is also very cheap here right now due to oversupply in all the new downtown towers). They need to figure out a way to create jobs in downtown. Just like Obama said other night, job creation is key. With that we will see higher population in downtown, pedestrian traffic, condo values stabilize due to higher demand, more restaurants bars and cafes open up. It will just make downtown a more pleasant place which will then compound to even better things.

3. Build an iconic structure or two. A 1000 tower that everyone will associate with Miami (preferably right next to Wachovia, One Bayfront Plaza?). Was also thinking of maybe a statue on one of the keys/islands in the bay. Something grand like a statue of liberty type icon. I'm thinking Virginia key may be best suited. Then have ferry services to and from this place. Make it a main tourist destination, but also something Miami residents are prideful of.

How about limiting or at least being more selective when allowing developers to build condo towers. Miami Beach and the surrounding areas have turned into a boring white box condo tower haven.

How about limiting or at least being more selective when allowing developers to build condo towers. Miami Beach and the surrounding areas have turned into a boring white box condo tower haven.

I think this is a good point. Miami has a good thing going, but we stand to lose big time if we continue to allow people looking to make a quick buck to steal away our beautiful landscape.

Miami needs to cultivate its growing arts scene and do ore to encourage creative, inspired people to move here, as opposed to the lemmings that far too often find their way to our city. Getting a real symphony orchestra here would be a great asset, and finding permanent homes for many of the theatre groups, preferably in close proximity to one another, would help too.

I believe a comprehensive transit system is the most essential though. We need it to curb sprawl, kill single-family residential developments, and altogether unify the city.

I also love the idea of a new inner-city university. I think somewhere near Midtown would be an excellent location. FIU is clearly the large public school in the region, and I would be hesitant to suggest we could support another one since FIU isn't as established as one would like, but there is plenty of room for more private schools, preferably one larger than UM.

Other than that, I would suggest that Miami could benefit from:

1. Driving lessons
2. Writing lessons
3. A swift kick in the ass and a good talking-to

3. Central Park South - although I have no clue where to make one, Miami needs its own version of Central Park, Golden Gate Park, or Stanley Park in Vancouver BC



This is an interesting idea. I have no idea where you would put a 700 or 800 acre park in Miami, and given that we have miles and miles of beach line, I suppose the argument could be made that we don't even need such an urban oasis. Nevertheless, as much as I love the beach, I would prefer to be surrounded by greenery.

But Central and Golden Gate Parks are a different animal than Stanley Park, I think. Stanley Park is significantly larger and, from what I understand, it's mostly minimally-touched wilderness. I guess you could consider that Miami has something similar in the Everglades, and my guess is that if you ever dedicated 1,000 acres to open space in Miami, it would probably revert back to something similar to the Everglades anyway. it's important to remember that South Florida isn't all that inhabitable of a place. It would be a major undertaking to build a central park in Miami. We may be better off building a series of smaller public squares around the city.

Cool thread idea, by the way.

Make the city more walk able.

Improve mass transit.

More parks. (Don’t need central park, Miami has Biscayne National Park right in front of it, work with that maybe?)

No more Suburbs, like Kevin said.

More density.

More trees.

A river walk.

Utilizing the People mover and Monorail systems.

Miami World Center.

The most important thing to me though is making the downtown more ped friendly, having a street car system, and making it denser. I think all those things will add character. There is alot more to a city then just skyscrapers, which is why I still prefer SoBe to Dwntwn Miami.

1. RAIL FROM AIRPORT TO MIAMI BEACH.........THATS IT.

It is interesting that after all these years, we still don't have rail from the airport to the beach. That would take care of all those tourist who cause so many delays on our highways and streets. When are we going to wake up and make it happen? I know the history of metrorail to hialeah instead of MIA. It was just stupid thinking and it needs to stop. We need to start thinking long term with some short term fixes in the meantime. Things need to become more streamlined in the government, I find it such a waste when they were redoing Washington Ave they did not place light rail tracks at the same time. Instead they will need to rip up the street again wasting more money in the process. If it ever happens.

Good thread!:cheers:

Great thread, and many compelling ideas.

Some of it needs to be tempered with reality, though, imo. Even with a renewed federal commitment to urban transit (an iffy proposition if you look at the actual stimulus package) it's VERY unlikely a large share of that money will go to heavy-rail systems like Metrorail that have a poor ridership-to-cost ratio. Instead, the impetus in recent years in numerous metro areas from Charlotte to Seattle has been to focus on more cost-efficient methods such as light-rail and that's where I'd like to see MDTA focus their efforts. Not that they should completely mothball Metrorail expansion forever---only that they need to pursue what might realistically be funded in lieu of seeing nothing happen for many, many years.

With parks, I'd like to see more public/private cooperation. Increase the presence of outside vendors with everything from marinas to concessions and entertainment options. The county often does a poor job of trying to do it themselves and the result is a lot of parks that are underfunded, poorly maintained, and lacking much inducement to bring the public to them.

With urbanity, we need real Design Review with teeth. Not cobbled-together "boards" consisting of people with scant qualifications...not Imperial Panels imbued with Draconian powers that would preclude development...but simply professionals that demand the best in urban design and the political influence to force developers to accept standards that benefit the public at large (such as great street interaction) rather than simply their own interests. There is no reason a city in such a magnificent setting like Miami should have to see any more "One Miami's" or "One Broadway's." They add nothing to the allure of the city and, in fact, detract from it, imo. No more of that...please.

Education, though, is so obviously the key to making the city a better place to live and work. It's sort of the 900-pound gorilla in the room that nobody wants to discuss but unfortunately Miami offers one of the least-educated workforces among big cities---certainly among those with global ambitions. Anyone from the Beacon Council to a corporate headhunter will tell you this has long been a serious hindrance to attracting both business and corporate talent to the city and it's something that MUST change for Miami to realize it's economic and social potential. The answers aren't easy...particularly with the demographic/immigration challenges that face Miami more than most cities...but certainly there is vast room for improvement there.

Anyway, really enjoying seeing what the rest of you fellas have to say. Great stuff! :cheers:

(oh, forgot to mention "Telly Savalas World" among my wished-for items) :lol:

..

Two quick questions, is there construction still going on since the cranes "left?" Any projects left partially done? There are still cranes and construction continues on many projects. There are a few smaller projects that have stopped, but no unfinished skyscrapers have halted construction.

1.) A more professional, Park Avenue-esque CBD.

2.) Manhattanization around Freedom Tower. I know you will all hate me for saying this, but there needs to be new, contrasting development on the adjacent grass lots to show it's historic.

3.) Annexation of the airport area. $$$

4.) A taller, unique skyscraper to crown the skyline.

5.) An H&M (the IKEA of clothing) at The Shops at Midtown Miami to replace the Linens 'N Things space.

5.) Miami Marine Stadium refurbishment.

Two quick questions, is there construction still going on since the cranes "left?" Any projects left partially done?

forgot about #5...but absolutely.....refurbish marine stadium !!! thanks for that one !

I'll add one other one that just came to my mind: Limit highrise construction to just Downtown and Brickell. Mid-rise construction can be built in Miami Beach, Aventura, Sunny Isles, Bal Harbour, Coral Gables, Midtown, Civic Center and Dadeland. Everywhere else, low-rise density. I say this because I don't want to come back (if I could lol) a hundred years later and see Miami's coast a huge fortress of imposing condo towers.

There's beauty in highrises in select areas, but when Miami's beaches become one long wall of condos, it's really ugly and tacky. I don't want us to end up like that. We need to be picky about who develops and what they develop. It's our city and it's a beautiful city, let's try to keep it beautiful by respecting the environment and its area.

I'll add one other one that just came to my mind: Limit highrise construction to just Downtown and Brickell. Mid-rise construction can be built in Miami Beach, Aventura, Sunny Isles, Bal Harbour, Coral Gables, Midtown, Civic Center and Dadeland. Everywhere else, low-rise density. I say this because I don't want to come back (if I could lol) a hundred years later and see Miami's coast a huge fortress of imposing condo towers.

There's beauty in highrises in select areas, but when Miami's beaches become one long wall of condos, it's really ugly and tacky. I don't want us to end up like that. We need to be picky about who develops and what they develop. It's our city and it's a beautiful city, let's try to keep it beautiful by respecting the environment and its area.
Good point, when my wife and I visit, she dislikes the fact that some of the time she can not layout on the beach because the sun is being blocked by a huge building.

10. Improved English proficiency in Hispanic parts of town (Hialeah, Sweetwater and Little Havana).
Also the fact that my wife is Hispanic and looks it ( she's Boricua) gets to her because every time we visit Little Havana the people want to speak to her in Spanish and get offended when she speaks English (although her and I speak Spanish sometimes we don't want to speak it). I have seen tourist get heckled in Spanish along with myself in the Little Havana district (very few though, most of the time they are most gracious).

1) Miami21
2) Cleaning House at the Overtown MDT headquarters
4) Once 2 is completed, a power agreement with the CITT (crucial for the future of
MDT)
5) Make it impossible for the UDB to be extended any further
6) Metrorail extensions in the form of Light Rail (preferably streetcars)
7) The EASY Card (long overdue but on its way!)
8) A successful MWC and Marlins Stadium (with transportation and retail integration)
9) Museum Park
10) Baylink!

The thread title seems to imply that Miami has undergone a massive change already, and the question being posed is, after this significant transformation, from what more could be benefit. While there has giant leaps taken, the initial change has not been completed. I would argue that, more than anything, Miami needs to finish what it's already started. I've been living here for seven years and, even though the skyline looks drastically different than it did in 2002, the city still feels largely the same. I suspect this discrepancy exists because the new city we've built (and that's probably the best way to describe it), isn't being treated any differently than the old city we had. More than anything, we need to fill those condo towers with permanent residents. Once that occurs, the projects occupying everyone's wish lists will be the natural next steps.

Things Miami still needs...

a non-corrupt government, an efficient transit system and a prominent public square in downtown

The thread title seems to imply that Miami has undergone a massive change already, and the question being posed is, after this significant transformation, from what more could be benefit. While there has giant leaps taken, the initial change has not been completed. I would argue that, more than anything, Miami needs to finish what it's already started. I've been living here for seven years and, even though the skyline looks drastically different than it did in 2002, the city still feels largely the same. I suspect this discrepancy exists because the new city we've built (and that's probably the best way to describe it), isn't being treated any differently than the old city we had. More than anything, we need to fill those condo towers with permanent residents. Once that occurs, the projects occupying everyone's wish lists will be the natural next steps.

Could not agree more, Peter.

What's interesting to me is that our experiences are nearly opposite. You moved to Miami roughly at the same time I left as a full-time resident, yet the impression is pretty much the same. The "visual" aspect of the city is very different, but the actual nuts and bolts of life there are virtually the same.

Part of it (in my case, anyway) is no doubt because I'm back down there all the time. The last full month that I didn't spend at least a few days in Miami was August of last year---so nothing is "wow, when did that happen?" y'know? I see it all the time.

Still, though, you nailed it with the 'permanent resident' part. We need to stop the charade that all these new buildings are filled with dynamic young urbanites rapidly transforming downtown. In reality, tons of these units sit empty---while plenty of others only occassionally have actual people in them on a here today/gone tomorrow basis. Those folks add to the tax rolls (and that's great) but they aren't exactly enrolling kids in schools in droves or providing the sustained critical mass of people to make it a beehive of activity. After sundown, downtown Miami is still pretty sleepy with or without a Heat game or cocktails in Mary Brickell or whatever. It's really a lot closer to Tampa or Sacramento in that regard than Manhattan. The real action remains elsewhere...at least for now.

The boom was largely based on a speculative frenzy of "If You Build It, They Will Come" but that largely turned out to be hyperbolic nonsense. Instead, we were left with far too much product and not nearly enough demand.

As you said, we need an infusion of PERMANENT residents to really juice things up into the kind of city we do a lot of talking about---but has yet to actually exist. Hopefully the economy (or what's left of it) will find some legs in a few years and enable it to happen.

I'm optimistic it will. Miami has always been somewhat dysfunctional, but it usually resurfaces a little bit better. I think that trend will continue once we get through this colossal economic mess.

It already has made giant leaps, but more things could be done to make it even better....for me, the most important deal with transit and conveniency.

1) They need to make metrorail extensions. Several of them. The north corridor is complete garbage, will not help much. The E/W line will be better, but the most exciting to me is the airport extension and the MIC. The MIC will dramatically improve the transit situation and people won't complain anymore that "the train doesn't go to the airport" which is one of the biggest complaints with metrorail today. Plus that is actually on track to be completed in the next 3 years so it'll happen sooner than the others. Personally, I'd like to see a line to South Beach before the E/W or the North, but since that's pretty much impossible right now i'd rather see the E/W than north, the north corridor will go through slum areas of opa locka, miami gardens, etc. and will not increase ridership that much. I doubt that broward people will use it. The only positive it brings to the table is it goes to Dolphin Stadium, so it'd be great for special events like the super bowl, concerts, and the 8 sundays each fall that the dolphins play there (and UM i guess as well now). the E/W corridor has many more middle class people living along it that could use the line to commute......plus you'd get a lot of people that drive from other places on the turnpike, park at the western terminus, and ride it into downtown (similar to what people do at Dadeland North right now when they come from Kendall or south dade into that area and then take the train into the city).

2) The streetcar for downtown and midtown would be nice...the one running along NE 2nd ave or whatever that they proposed a few years ago would definitely help....have it similar to the metromover but in the area north of where the mover runs.

3) I'd like to see a streetcar or metromover type thing in coconut grove, running from the Grove metrorail station down 27th ave, to bayshore, around cocowalk, main highway, grand ave, and then either back to that station or to douglas road station. That way more people could take transit to the grove without having to walk 20 minutes from the metrorail.

4) Put an end to all future suburban developments around miami. That way they will be forced to build up when building starts again, instead of building out. We don't need any more sprawling suburbs and density is the key. Also protect the agricultural lands in Homestead by making sure the zoning doesn't change and that they aren't allowed to build houses there at any time in the future; extend everglades national park north of 8th street so that area doesn't get developed either.

5) We need a 1,000 foot (maybe not exactly 1,000 but somewhere between 950 and 1100 feet) skyscraper to define the skyline. Brickell Financial Center phase 2 would probably make me happy even though its not exactly 1000, but it would be a statement building. What ever happened to that One Bayfront Plaza thing that was to be built next to Wachovia?

6) The density of skyscrapers in Brickell has improved dramatically and is at a good level now.....but still lacks somewhat in the real "downtown" area north of the river. There are a lot of tall buildings along the river and along Biscayne, but adding some to the flagler/interior sections would make that part of the skyline look more impressive from the west.

7) More bike lanes on major roads in miami....they are starting to do this, but the more the better.

8) Miami World center, or whatever that thing is called that was to be built in park west, that will be great for that area and is really necessary at this point.

9) More multicultralism....i know this seems weird for me to say, but it seems like Miami for the most part (other than Aventura, Sunny Isles, North Miami Beach, that area) has three dominant cultures: Hispanics, White (WASPs), and Black. We need more Italians, eastern Europeans, Asians, French, German, Indian (from india), Middle Eastern, African, etc. A few pockets of miami have this, but we need to diversify the entire city and attract more immigrants that aren't Hispanic.

10) do something about the marlins...either get them out of town or build a new stadium, it's horrible having a team that nobody likes or cares about in town like this.

10) do something about the marlins...either get them out of town or build a new stadium, it's horrible having a team that nobody likes or cares about in town like this.

I don't know why people wouldn't like the Marlins. They have two World Series titles in their short existence. I mean, it's not as if the Boston Red Sox would be moving to town to replace them, y'know?

As far as "not caring" I guess the attendance bears that out, unfortunately.

Agreed with your other points but unfortunately the Metrorail extensions have become very unlikely to happen. I certainly hope we can at least see some movement with light-rail and perhaps the FEC tracks being utilized for commuter rail, as has been posted here recently.

^^ people hate the Marlins because they always get rid of their good players as soon as it's looking like they will put together a period of consistent winning. The management has been terrible to this point and people don't like that; they can't get attached to any players that are good before the management rides them out of town.

Also, if the Marlins had a better stadium they might get more people to go, but that is yet to be seen. Not only must they get the stadium, but they have to put together some consistent winning and not fire all their good players when the salary gets too much. The management is way too cheap right now to attract a significant fan base.

Personally i dont want to see the marlins stadium built, I think that money could be used in a number of ways that are a lot better and would benefit the community more....especially when it's coming from taxpayers' pockets. If the Marlins get their stadium built, we will see what happens, it will definitely be somewhat better situation with them that it currently is, but I have the feeling that attendance will still be very low. I'm not sure if we will attract a new MLB team any time in the near future, but it will come eventually and hopefully it will be more successful than the Marlins (I'm not talking about the world series championships, but other than those two years in the playoffs the marlins franchise has been a failure) in gaining a fanbase and a reputation as a respectable club. I like sports but the Marlins are honestly not that big of a deal to Miami.

Still, though, you nailed it with the 'permanent resident' part. We need to stop the charade that all these new buildings are filled with dynamic young urbanites rapidly transforming downtown. In reality, tons of these units sit empty---
"We need to stop the charade"....who is we? What charade?
The Fact is that many buidings in the CBD and the Brickell area that have had Certificates of Occupancy for more than 8 months are filling up with residents.
It is a fact.
Things are transforming for someone that walks in the CBD or Brickell around two times a month, it may not be apparent, for those that walk the CBD or Brickell closer to 32 times a month the change is apparent.
In case you missed it, there is yet another day care opening at 1050 SE 1st Avenue, in the same building as the new French Bakery, Italian Cafe, Hair Salon/Spa and Mellon Bank.
If you were at the opening of Club 50 at SE 5th Street, you may have met the girls that just moved in accross the street at 500 Brickell. The leasing girl tells me that they have exactly 2 one bedrooms available for rent.
The week before, Area 32 restaurant opened on SE 3rd Street (I think that's the address), lots of young people from the neighborhood there.
Anyone make the Thursday night one year anniversary of Segafredo on Brickell? Packed and overflowing.
As someone that has worked in the Brickell Area and has recently moved from South Beach to the City of Miami, it is very hard to ignore the drastic change in energy.

There are hundreds and hundreds of new permanent residents that have moved here in the last two years. I can personally name about 50.
Anyone that lives in the CBD or Brickell can tell you the same...outsiders will not get it...yet.
Got to go...going to meet some new people that are moving into my building, what a great day to walk in Brickell and the CBD!

It is also a FACT that tons of those units are empty...as EVERYBODY knows, including you.

The only point Peter and I were both making is that the genuine transformation that we ALL want won't happen in a massive way until we fill those units with a critical mass of permanent residents. As I have always said (but is conveniently edited out of your responses for purposes of an agenda) I remain completely optimistic that this will indeed happen over time.

I have to go to....plane to catch so I can once again be an "outsider" in the city where my family has been since before you were a gleam in your daddy's eye. Have a nice day. :cheers:

It is also a FACT that tons of those units are empty...as EVERYBODY knows, including you. Tons?
Not EVERYBODY weighs empty apartments. You are entitled to your own methodology.
There certainly are a number of empty apartments. Mostly in buildings that have received their Certificate of Occupancy in the last 8 months.
People that know what they are talking about, know that it takes at least 4 months in a healthy market to close skyscrapers with 300+ units. This is an abnormally difficult financing market (to say the least) to close even the contracted sales. In about 8 months, you've closed or given up on closing all pre-sales. One thing that is sure, is that developers that are allowing their units to be rented are renting them out with very few days on the market in the CBD and in Brickell.
The fact is that buildings that have been given a reasonable amount of time are absorbing residents.

You can't weigh it, but you can count it. Buildings ARE filling up. People ARE walking the streets...I was just walking with them. FACT.

What building specifically would you use to quanitfy your "charade" comment?
I'd be happy to do an analysis for you to see if you are correct in your assertion. Just name one building...
We need to stop the charade that all these new buildings are filled with dynamic young urbanites rapidly transforming downtown. Anyone that knows what they are talking about knows that you don't flip a switch and fill a building, but these buildings are filling up daily. It is no "charade".
When I post about the CBD and Brickell it's because I live and work there. There are many people posting here that put their money where their mouth is, they will tell you that things are transforming daily.
I have to go to....plane to catch so I can once again be an "outsider" in the city where my family has been since before you were a gleam in your daddy's eye.Great! You still have visitation rights.
Are you staying in the CBD or Brickell? There are some great Pres day parties and events with the vibrant urbanites tommorrow and then Tuesday another one with the commissioners (the ones you say don't work enough to call it a full time job), you can really get a better flavor for what is really happening if you stay a bit longer. Send a private message for details..you really should witness all this first hand, it's incredible.

The thread title seems to imply that Miami has undergone a massive change already, and the question being posed is, after this significant transformation, from what more could be benefit. While there has giant leaps taken, the initial change has not been completed. I would argue that, more than anything, Miami needs to finish what it's already started. I've been living here for seven years and, even though the skyline looks drastically different than it did in 2002, the city still feels largely the same. I suspect this discrepancy exists because the new city we've built (and that's probably the best way to describe it), isn't being treated any differently than the old city we had. More than anything, we need to fill those condo towers with permanent residents. Once that occurs, the projects occupying everyone's wish lists will be the natural next steps.

It's all about perspective, Peter. I am not looking at this topic from a 2002 viewpoint, but rather as a guy who grew up in Miami in the early to middle 1960s. It was a time when there were no big league sports, no mass transit, no world class skyline, etc.

We have come light years since those days. I am sure other long time Miamians will recall when we used to envy cities like Pittsburgh and Cincinnati for their cookie cutter stadiums, and big league teams. I am sure that while I would look at the Dade County courthose with awe...other cities thought of Miami as a backwater reservation.

From those days, we have come...a LONG way !

I would argue that, more than anything, Miami needs to finish what it's already started.
Some would argue that there is no "finish".
I specifically remember riding my bike in 1993 on Biscayne Boulevard and walking to the roof of the Howard Johnson at NE 11th Street.
In 2003, 10 years later, things in the CBD (as viewed from the roof of the former Howard Johnson (http://s113.photobucket.com/albums/n215/restainer/?action=view&current=pano_hojobiscayne.flv)) were pretty much the same. With the exception of an expanded Miami-Dade Community College, and a New American Airlines Arena, it was static for a good 10 years in the 1990's.
Without a doubt, after the buildings are completed in area around the CBD the incremental change has been happening at a rapid pace compared to 1993-2003. And by that, I mean more students at the new 4 year Miami Dade College, more tourists at Bayside, more events at the Performing Arts Center, more events at American Airlines Arena, more residents at the multiple residences.
In the last 7 years, there are exponetially more residents, there are more businesses, and more events in Downtown Miami than there were 7 years ago. Check that panoramic video from 6 years ago...not one single pedestrian on the sidewalks or in the park. You couldn't replicate that in 2009. We have come a long way, and the progress continues.
There isn't a finish line...it is an ongoing evolution. Miami is great and getting better.

Some would argue that there is no "finish".
I specifically remember riding my bike in 1993 on Biscayne Boulevard and walking to the roof of the Howard Johnson at NE 11th Street.
In 2003, 10 years later, things in the CBD (as viewed from the roof of the former Howard Johnson (http://s113.photobucket.com/albums/n215/restainer/?action=view&current=pano_hojobiscayne.flv)) were pretty much the same. With the exception of an expanded Miami-Dade Community College, and a New American Airlines Arena, it was static for a good 10 years in the 1990's.
Without a doubt, after the buildings are completed in area around the CBD the incremental change has been happening at a rapid pace compared to 1993-2003. And by that, I mean more students at the new 4 year Miami Dade College, more tourists at Bayside, more events at the Performing Arts Center, more events at American Airlines Arena, more residents at the multiple residences.
In the last 7 years, there are exponetially more residents, there are more businesses, and more events in Downtown Miami than there were 7 years ago. Check that panoramic video from 6 years ago...not one single pedestrian on the sidewalks or in the park. You couldn't replicate that in 2009. We have come a long way, and the progress continues.
There isn't a finish line...it is an ongoing evolution. Miami is great and getting better.

Are you trying to say that at the present time, downtown Miami is a bustling area? No offense, but that is not the case. People don't flock to downtown Miami like they do in other cities. Miami Beach is where people flock, will continue to flock and will always flock. Driving down Brickell is just like driving down Peachtree in Atlanta for example, you don't have the canyon feel like you do in Chicago, Boston or New York. Which by the way are 3 of the 5 biggest CBDs in this country.

What other events to you foresee happening at the AA Arena? Aside from Heat games and concerts, the arena will serve it's purpose, it's not a convention center that will attract large conventions and trade shows.

The problem with Miami is this, tourists come to South Florida to go to the beach. Miami is not known for museums or having a large arts scene. Warm weather and beaches are what draws people to the region. Miami itself (not Miami beach) is situated a good distance from Miami Beach (where the bulk of tourists to the city stay) and it's not easy to get to downtown. If you don't take a cab, which given the distance is quite expensive, or have a car, you can't just walk there. (Although I did see a homeless man riding his bike over the MacArthur causeway)

Miami needs intimate, pedestrian oriented spaces like this one in the meat packing district of NYC:
http://66.230.220.70/images/post/apple/01.jpg

http://66.230.220.70/images/post/apple/04.jpg

Are you trying to say that at the present time, downtown Miami is a bustling area? No offense, but that is not the case. People don't flock to downtown Miami like they do in other cities. Miami Beach is where people flock, will continue to flock and will always flock. Driving down Brickell is just like driving down Peachtree in Atlanta for example, you don't have the canyon feel like you do in Chicago, Boston or New York. Which by the way are 3 of the 5 biggest CBDs in this country.

What other events to you foresee happening at the AA Arena? Aside from Heat games and concerts, the arena will serve it's purpose, it's not a convention center that will attract large conventions and trade shows.

The problem with Miami is this, tourists come to South Florida to go to the beach. Miami is not known for museums or having a large arts scene. Warm weather and beaches are what draws people to the region. Miami itself (not Miami beach) is situated a good distance from Miami Beach (where the bulk of tourists to the city stay) and it's not easy to get to downtown. If you don't take a cab, which given the distance is quite expensive, or have a car, you can't just walk there. (Although I did see a homeless man riding his bike over the MacArthur causeway)

No, downtown Miami is not a bustling area and I don't see where Roark said that, but the city has changed radically in the past few years and will continue to change for the better exponentially as Roark said. In mentioning both the Performing Arts Center and the American Airlines Arena, he is stating what we have now that was not there not very long ago. The CBD and the Brickell area have a completely different feel to them now from just a few short years ago when you walk through them. I love eating out in Brickell Village because I meet a lot of cool, progressive local people there who represent the new Miami very well, and the tourists are catching on. Having lived in Miami-Dade county for 25 years now, I ask you how quickly and how radically do you want the city to change all at once? Johnny Vinton's quote that I use in my signature line may well turn out to be true, and no, the rapid transformation is not over. It's just in a lull right now, which I think is a fine time to do an assessment and take stock of things.

No, the condos will never be completely filled with permanent residents because this is Miami, and it is the nature of the beast here, but more people will eventually occupy them to make for a more bustling city.

Still mass transit, specifically Metrorail, continues to be an embarrassment.

..

Driving down Brickell is just like driving down Peachtree in Atlanta for example, you don't have the canyon feel like you do in Chicago, Boston or New York. Which by the way are 3 of the 5 biggest CBDs in this country.

Well, uh? I DO sort of GET THAT CANYON FEEL. Could be better, and I would like for it to be better, but then, as I said, how quickly and radically do you want the city to change?

Boston? The tallest completed building in Boston (John Hancock) is only 1 foot taller than the Four Seasons and bulidings over 400 and 500 feet tall line both sides of Brickell Avenue. Boston isn't even part of the second tier of U.S. skylines which is Dallas, Houston, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, and San Francisco. The Market Street Canyon in San Francisco would have been a better example. Now that's a canyon.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3369/3275977510_06da730298_b.jpg
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Driving down Brickell is just like driving down Peachtree in Atlanta for example, you don't have the canyon feel like you do in Chicago, Boston or New York. Which by the way are 3 of the 5 biggest CBDs in this country.

This photo, which is not one of mine, I believe is better suited for the purpose as we enter Miami's Brickell Financial District.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3400/3287851777_8824c6955e_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3400/3287851777_8824c6955e_o.jpg

It's all about perspective, Peter. I am not looking at this topic from a 2002 viewpoint, but rather as a guy who grew up in Miami in the early to middle 1960s. It was a time when there were no big league sports, no mass transit, no world class skyline, etc.

We have come light years since those days. I am sure other long time Miamians will recall when we used to envy cities like Pittsburgh and Cincinnati for their cookie cutter stadiums, and big league teams. I am sure that while I would look at the Dade County courthose with awe...other cities thought of Miami as a backwater reservation.

From those days, we have come...a LONG way !

Some would argue that there is no "finish".

There isn't a finish line...it is an ongoing evolution. Miami is great and getting better.

Good discussion all around. I recall a time growing up in Baltimore when in the winter it seemed like even the drug dealers were too afraid to walk the streets. After a few years, the drug dealers started coming out. Then regular residents began to emerge, and today the streets are active, very near bustling. You make a good point, and I agree that when you look at it over the course of decades, you can't deny that a major transformation has taken place.

My perspective, and I should have done a better job explaining it, was that Miami was not "finished" in the sense that downtown does not yet feel like it looks. I'm thinking back to when I first visited Miami in 1999. If you showed me back then a picture of the 2009 skyline and asked me to imagine what the streets in downtown looked like, I would have imagined them to be much more active than they are presently. That is not to say that downtown isn't getting progressively busier; all I am saying is that the current downtown is not being used to the fullest. My point was that, in my opinion, there is still quite a large gap, albeit getting smaller, between the way Miami looks and the way Miami feels, and one of the most significant changes that could take place in the city today is to close that gap.

My point was that, in my opinion, there is still quite a large gap, albeit getting smaller, between the way Miami looks and the way Miami feels, and one of the most significant changes that could take place in the city today is to close that gap.

And there is a way that all of us who live locally can help that. Growing up here in Florida, when I was a boy, I remember a statewide ad campaign to boost tourism called "Be a Friendly Floridian!" Spell probably remembers that. Those of us currently living locally are all ambassadors to the new Miami. When I go out, particularly in Brickell Village, I strike up conversations with locals and tourists, take pictures of them, answer questions and give them directions. I'm sure Roark does this too because he has the personality, knowledge and sophistication to have a pretty lucid conversation with a wide variety of people. We can all help to change the feel of Miami by actually getting out there and doing it by showing visitors how friendly and intelligent we can be and give them a good impression over all of what kind of people live here in the new Miami.

..

Are you trying to say that at the present time, downtown Miami is a bustling area? No offense, but that is not the case.What I was trying to say is precisely what I posted. You can re read the post for clarification. It would be even more insulting to repost the exact same thing. Downtown Miami is and will continue to be a work in progress.
What other events to you foresee happening at the AA Arena? Aside from Heat games and concerts, the arena will serve it's purpose, it's not a convention center that will attract large conventions and trade shows. Foresee? Or have actually seen with my own eyes? They do have convention style meetings at AAA...just last week "Service America" I think had the place filled up. The Circus was there the week before. We could use more convention space in the CBD though, there is a definite need.
The problem with Miami is this, tourists come to South Florida to go to the beach. #1 I don't see that as a problem. #2 Not all tourists or conventioneers come for the beach.
Miami is not known for museums or having a large arts scene. So what, just because Miami isn't known for it, doesn't mean Miami doesn't have large arts scene. The largest Art Show in the world, Art Basel, the Miami Book Fair, also one of the largest in the world. The New World Symphony. The 1/2 Billion Dollar PAC (arguably the best in the USA, but definitely in the top 3) would considered by many to contribute to the arts scene. With the exception of the Book Fair, they have all come on line in the last 7 years. A work in progress.
Miami itself (not Miami beach) is situated a good distance from Miami Beach (where the bulk of tourists to the city stay) and it's not easy to get to downtown.
If you mean by a "good distance" 3 miles, then yes the "mainland" City of Miami Beach is a good distance from the City of Miami.
You CAN just walk there, I have. You can walk, rollerblade, or ride a bike on the Venetian Causway (and you should, it's great) along with hundreds of other people each day. You can take the bus for $1.50 or you can take a cab for about $7.

The Miami Boat/Yacht/Sail show is mostly held in Miami Beach. This year, many of the boats were in Miami at Bayside Marina. One of the Italian Yacht Maker parties was held on Brickell at the Viceroy. Neither of these things happened 7 years ago. It is a work in progress. Great and getting better.

Brickell (the street) needs better median landscaping, new lights, and to be resurfaced to reflect how new all the development is.That work is currently progressing.
Rather than walk along the Bay, I'll walk down Brickell to the event at Icon to let you know how they are doing.

What I was trying to say is precisely what I posted. You can re read the post for clarification. It would be even more insulting to repost the exact same thing. Downtown Miami is and will continue to be a work in progress.

True true.

Foresee? Or have actually seen with my own eyes? They do have convention style meetings at AAA...just last week "Service America" I think had the place filled up. The Circus was there the week before. We could use more convention space in the CBD though, there is a definite need.

Truuuuueee.

#1 I don't see that as a problem. #2 Not all tourists or conventioneers come for the beach.

true dat dawg.

So what, just because Miami isn't known for it, doesn't mean Miami doesn't have large arts scene. The largest Art Show in the world, Art Basel, the Miami Book Fair, also one of the largest in the world. The New World Symphony. The 1/2 Billion Dollar PAC (arguably the best in the USA, but definitely in the top 3) would considered by many to contribute to the arts scene. With the exception of the Book Fair, they have all come on line in the last 7 years. A work in progress.

Way da tell it like it is brotha

If you mean by a "good distance" 3 miles, then yes the "mainland" City of Miami Beach is a good distance from the City of Miami.
You CAN just walk there, I have. You can walk, rollerblade, or ride a bike on the Venetian Causway (and you should, it's great) along with hundreds of other people each day. You can take the bus for $1.50 or you can take a cab for about $7.

you go girl

The Miami Boat/Yacht/Sail show is mostly held in Miami Beach. This year, many of the boats were in Miami at Bayside Marina. One of the Italian Yacht Maker parties was held on Brickell at the Viceroy. Neither of these things happened 7 years ago. It is a work in progress. Great and getting better.

Foshizzle my nizzle

That work is currently progressing.
Rather than walk along the Bay, I'll walk down Brickell to the event at Icon to let you know how they are doing.

take some photos please

Those of us currently living locally are all ambassadors to the new Miami. When I go out, particularly in Brickell Village, I strike up conversations with locals and tourists, take pictures of them, answer questions and give them directions. I'm sure Roark does this too because he has the personality, knowledge and sophistication to have a pretty lucid conversation with a wide variety of people. We can all help to change the feel of Miami by actually getting out there and doing it by showing visitors ...what kind of people live here in the new Miami.

To elaborate a bit on what I said earlier, on my first trip to New York, nearly 30 years ago, I was terrified on the train from the airport into Manhattan because all I had heard about was how violent the city was and how rude the people were, but I was soon taken in by how vibrant, friendly, and full of life the average person on the street was in New York and making Miami into a more vibrant city begins with all of us who live here. Changing how the city feels begins with each of us who lives here, and to be a more vibrant city is one of the things Miami still needs starting with us guys.

^^^^^^^^ Wow. Beautifully stated QuantumX. I agree 100%. It will start with each and everyone of us. That is where the big change should take place.

Those of us currently living locally are all ambassadors to the new Miami.
Well put, and those that post here are also ambassadors to Miami.
People do read these posts and accept that information as factual.

Downtown Miami/Brickell has improved by leaps and bounds, and will continue to do so. Hopefully, by the time this recession is over all these condos will be full and there will be new demand... Nevertheless, even during the recession, Downtown Miami will continue to improve. There are dozens of retail establishments due to open in Brickell and Downtown in the next few months, and the condos will fill up, even if it is at a loss for some people. Some condos will suffer more than others, but the prospects (environmental, economic, negative effects of sprawl) for the urban core remain the same IMO in the long term.

This financial mess might actually help in some ways, by allowing more of a middle class to settle into downtown. Prices were just too crazy..

By the way, everyone in the area should go to Bike Miami this weekend!! Last one was great!

To elaborate a bit on what I said earlier, on my first trip to New York, nearly 30 years ago, I was terrified on the train from the airport into Manhattan because all I had heard about was how violent the city was and how rude the people were, but I was soon taken in by how vibrant, friendly, and full of life the average person on the street was in New York and making Miami into a more vibrant city begins with all of us who live here. Changing how the city feels begins with each of us who lives here, and to be a more vibrant city is one of the things Miami still needs starting with us guys.

Very true and well said Quantum! We all are ambassadors to Miami and we represent our city. If we're kind to our visitors, they will go back to they're homes and speak positively of Miami and they in turn, will want to come visit Miami, or maybe even move here. We must be nice and welcoming to others.

Downtown Miami/Brickell has improved by leaps and bounds, and will continue to do so. Hopefully, by the time this recession is over all these condos will be full and there will be new demand... Nevertheless, even during the recession, Downtown Miami will continue to improve. There are dozens of retail establishments due to open in Brickell and Downtown in the next few months, and the condos will fill up, even if it is at a loss for some people. Some condos will suffer more than others, but the prospects (environmental, economic, negative effects of sprawl) for the urban core remain the same IMO in the long term.
By the way, everyone in the area should go to Bike Miami this weekend!! Last one was great!
Good observations. Of course, it is a work in progress and it a great pleasure to see the progress each and everyday.
The fact is, that the condos are condos, they don't suffer. The people that bought to late/high will lose money as the free market rights itself. Banks and lenders will lose money.
Rental prices are still strong in Brickell/CBD. The apartments that are available for lease get rented quickly. The overwhelming majority of the vacant condos in the CBD are developer owned and/or not available for rent.

By the way, is Bike Miami a monthly thing? You sure didn't see that many people flocking to downtown on their bikes 7 years ago.

Very true and well said Quantum! We all are ambassadors to Miami and we represent our city. If we're kind to our visitors, they will go back to they're homes and speak positively of Miami and they in turn, will want to come visit Miami, or maybe even move here. We must be nice and welcoming to others.

Some people have issues and really don't want to be bothered, and this is something you sort of have to feel for, but just a few months ago, I was at the Wendy's just around the corner from me, and I noticed these three elderly women from the Midwest in line ahead of me. They wore that not-from-here look rather well, sort of like the Golden Girls from Missouri, so I asked them if they lived here or if they were visiting. They said they were visiting from Missouri and were going on a cruise. I asked them what cruise line, what itinerary and said how nice it was, where I was from, how long I've lived here and how Miami was changing for the better. They were thrilled that I stopped to talk to them and seemed very pleasantly surprised. They asked me what one of those new high-rise condos downtown went for, and I told them a lot less than what they originally went for and that they could probably get a very good deal right now. Then, I wished them a safe and pleasant trip.

This kind of thing makes a lot of difference to a lot of people visiting the city and even the locals who don't expect it from you when they turn out not to be tourists. It's a little easier for me than for a lot of other people because being an actor, I'm trained in how to present myself, even though I don't always do it well and can end up falling flat on my face in the mud just as easily as the next guy, but on the subject of Things Miami still needs..., more of this is definitely it.

Growing up here in Florida, when I was a boy, I remember a statewide ad campaign to boost tourism called "Be a Friendly Floridian!" Spell probably remembers that.

Sure I remember it. The second line was "put on a sunshine grin" if memory serves.

They should bring back "Reddy Kilowatt" as well---remember him? :cheers:

Sure I remember it. The second line was "put on a sunshine grin" if memory serves.

They should bring back "Reddy Kilowatt" as well---remember him? :cheers:

No, Spell, I don't remember all that other stuff. I think my mind is going.
"My mine is going! My mind is going! I can feel it! I can feel it! There is no question about it!" - HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey. - My favorite movie! That only goes to show how strange I am. :lol:

The downtown rental market is much larger and stronger than it has ever been, by many multiples. As Roark pointed out, it takes at least a year from when a building is issued a CO until contracts, litigation and final build out of interiors can occur. I would like to know which specific building you would point to that has been open for over a year and has 'tons of empty units'. As you know, the population downtown has more than doubled in just the past 3 years - something that Chicago, NY etc. clearly cannot say. I have no idea why you would even try to characterize this as a failure.

Characterizing it as a "failure" would be a gross misreading of what I said. That's not even close to how I feel.

I think Peter said it very well in an earlier post when he alluded to the difference between the "look" of downtown versus the actual "feel" of the place. As others here have commented, I just don't find downtown to be really "bustling" at this point---aside from occassional events that bring a critical mass of people to certain places. If others DO find it that way that's terrific...I'm just not one of them (and was there as recently as 72 hours ago).

With the "empty units" thing, obviously it's impossible for ANY of us to attach hard numbers to that for the simple reason that we don't know how many "sold" units actually sit vacant or are occupied only a small portion of the year versus those with full-time residents. Really, much of it is guesswork based on hazy things like the number of lights you see on (which itself can be misleading) or auto traffic headed into and out of the garages.

What is abundantly clear, however, is that the boom resulted in more inventory than there was really demand for. The steep decline in value attests to that, as does the conversion to more rentals in an attempt to get any kind of return in this godawful RE market. I doubt anyone involved in the industry at any level would say anything other than it's the worst they have ever seen---and who would dispute it? It's pretty damn scary right now, isn't it? Hey, I'm affected too. The two properties I have partial ownership of down there have likely seen their value drop by 25-30% in the past couple of years. Yikes.

Hard numbers? Well, someone posted here a couple of weeks ago that Icon only had 20 closings total currently. I have no way of knowing if that's accurate, but if it is (or anything even close to that) then that's pretty damn scary a portrait of where the market is right now, isn't it? We can only imagine how the actual developers must feel, having started some of these projects in a far different economic climate.

Now all of that said, I have ALWAYS maintained that I'm optimistic that things will get turned around eventually---that the city will see far more of the type of 24/7 resident that will give downtown the kind of real daily vibrancy everyone wants to see. Miami has always been resilient---sometimes against tough odds. I fully believe that will continue to be the case, even if some of us have a different viewpoint on how "bustling" downtown really is in the here and now. I'll always have faith in my city. :cheers:

No, Spell, I don't remember all that other stuff. I think my mind is going.
"My mine is going! My mind is going! I can feel it! I can feel it! There is no question about it!" - HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey. - My favorite movie! That only goes to show how strange I am. :lol:

Strange?? Kubrick was GREAT (except for the interminably boring "Barry Lyndon") and 2001 remains a classic. "I wouldn't do that if I were you, Dave...":lol:

"Reddy Killowatt" was the old FPL cartoon icon---made out of lightning bolts and light bulbs. He (it) probably faded from usage sometime in the 1970's...maybe because he was terrifying small children?

I'll bet you remember him once you see him...

http://www.mascotcartoon.com/images/ReddyKillowatt.jpg

With the "empty units" thing, obviously it's impossible for ANY of us to attach hard numbers
Absolutely incorrect. It is not impossible. You name the building that you think "has tons of empty units" in the CBD/Brickell that has had a TCO for 8 months. You made the claim. Support it.
I am open to the idea that you might be right, but lets test out your perception. Name ONE building. Prepare yourself to be open to the idea that you are dead wrong.
Really, much of it is guesswork based on hazy things like the number of lights you see on (which itself can be misleading) or auto traffic headed into and out of the garages. Really, it is? Are you just making that up? Economic Development directors would tell you that they get reports from Florida Power and Light that will tell them how many units are in a building and how MUCH electricity the unit is consuming. It's pretty easy to tell if someone is living in a unit or not. Hazy things...
Hard numbers? Well, someone posted here a couple of weeks ago that Icon only had 20 closings total currently. I have no way of knowing if that's accurate, but if it is (or anything even close to that) then that's pretty damn scary a portrait of where the market is right now, isn't it?No. Icon's performance is NOT a barometor of the entire market. The number is 17 closed units, and of course that is awful. But no one that knows what they are talking about would use ONE single building to describe the market. Especially when ICON is one of the highest cost buildings in the marketplace.

Glad you came down for a visit, you never responded to the earlier question, did you stay in the CBD or Brickell?

Sure I remember it. The second line was "put on a sunshine grin" if memory serves.

They should bring back "Reddy Kilowatt" as well---remember him? :cheers:

Do you juys remember the I LIKE MIAMI bumper stickers?

Do you juys remember the I LIKE MIAMI bumper stickers?

I think that was before I actually lived in Miami. I don't remember Reddy Kilowatt either. I'm not sure he made it up to Jacksonville.

Absolutely incorrect. It is not impossible. You name the building that you think "has tons of empty units" in the CBD/Brickell that has had a TCO for 8 months. You made the claim. Support it.
I am open to the idea that you might be right, but lets test out your perception. Name ONE building. Prepare yourself to be open to the idea that you are dead wrong.

Roark, I never added any qualifier like "TCO for 8 months" to the equation---merely an observation/opinion that there most certainly ARE a ton of empty units in completed buildings that are fully ready for occupancy. The "8 month" thing is something you added for argument's sake. I'm looking more at the overall picture.

In any case, there's ample evidence of just how tough things are currently---and how little is actually selling.

As of last week, Miami Condo Investments reports the following on four downtown developments we spend a lot of time talking about here:

Infinity. 21 units closed. 4.59% of total available units.
Everglades. 31 units closed. 3.95%.
Epic. 12 units. 3.33%
Icon. 0.84% of inventory.

Those numbers are staggering. You know it as well as I do. It's not as if these are speculative condos in some fantasy project, these are finished units in completed buildings---ready for occupancy---and the NON closure rate is at 95% or above for each. I didn't even fathom numbers like that until you spurred me to start researching it, frankly.

Honestly, why are we even arguing about this stuff? The RE market is absolutely horrific right now---along with the rest of the economy. The boom days are long gone and all we can hope now is that the bottom with this crap isn't too far off, y'know?

Really, it is? Are you just making that up? Economic Development directors would tell you that they get reports from Florida Power and Light that will tell them how many units are in a building and how MUCH electricity the unit is consuming. It's pretty easy to tell if someone is living in a unit or not. Hazy things...

I think you missed the point or I didn't clarify it enough. More clearly, what I'm saying is "hazy" and hard to quantify in concrete numbers is the gap between 24/7 residents and those who may only occasionally be around as part-timers. Everyone knows that there are both.

To give a very specific example, my mom and stepdad maintain homes in both South Florida and North Carolina. The home in North Carolina is only occupied for 3-4 months a year versus 8 or 9 in Tequesta, yet it is fully defined as "occupied" since they obviously pay property taxes on it and must maintain utilities such as water and climate control---like any responsible property owner---to prevent simple neglect as well as legal obligations to their homeowners association(s).

No different with a condo in Miami. To put it simply, the AC running or the lights on/off with a timer is often a VERY poor barometer of whether or not a unit is actually occupied or simply "in wait" for a part-time resident---thus "hazy" to define unless you happen to knock on all those doors each and every day, which I suspect is not the case. That would take a LOT of free time. :lol:


No. Icon's performance is NOT a barometor of the entire market. The number is 17 closed units, and of course that is awful. But no one that knows what they are talking about would use ONE single building to describe the market. Especially when ICON is one of the highest cost buildings in the marketplace.

Never said Icon was a barometer of the entire market---just as I never said the word "failure" would apply to any of the dynamics involved with any of this, as was stated in another post. I enjoy a healthy debate about all of this stuff (and suspect we all agree on much more than we disagree about) but putting false words in my mouth can't---and won't---go uncorrected. I'd expect the same vice-versa and would hope you would also set the record straight in the event I made the same error.

Anyway, the market itself is obviously a mixture of success and troubling numbers. Is there really any dispute about that at this point? The reality is that we saw a stunning boom---followed by an economic collapse equally as breathtaking. The end result is a market in serious flux---just as in so many other locales---and one that is obviously having a very hard time finding resolution to all the inventory available. Isn't that the reality of it?

Glad you came down for a visit, you never responded to the earlier question, did you stay in the CBD or Brickell?

Family obligations were just slightly more important than that (have you ever tried to organize 50 people into a surprise party for a 70-year-old man who HATES surprises? :lol:) but I did manage to spend considerable time prowling all over downtown on Tuesday. "Bustling" still wouldn't be an adjective I'd use but certainly the area continues to make strides. And for now, I'll certainly latch onto that as a positive. You and I both want the same destination for the city regardless of any differences in what is ultimately minutae. Both of us can argue things at a better level than we have recently.

Just as an aside, I'm making some headway in getting Dade County to designate an honorary "day" for my dad since he's had such a close relationship with them for over 50 years. It would be SO cool to do that for him.

If not, there's always the latent hope for "Telly Savalas Day" to be celebrated with song and pageantry. :cheers:

Do you juys remember the I LIKE MIAMI bumper stickers?

I remember the "Miami's For Me" stickers...along with the ad campaign back in the early 1980s. "I Like Miami" doesn't ring a bell, though.

Personally, I want to start a movement to name Opa-Locka "Oprah Locka." Just imagine the attention it would bring to this neglected community.

I remember the "Miami's For Me" stickers...along with the ad campaign back in the early 1980s. "I Like Miami" doesn't ring a bell, though.

Personally, I want to start a movement to name Opa-Locka "Oprah Locka." Just imagine the attention it would bring to this neglected community.

The I LIKE MIAMI bumper sticker campaign was late 60s, or early 70s.

What about....Obama-Locka????? Has a ring to is, doesn't it???

BTW....I hate myself, I have hijacked my own thread! It's your fault spell....your Opa-Locka jokes always make me lose it....!!!

We need to stop the charade that all these new buildings are filled with dynamic young urbanites rapidly transforming downtown. In reality, tons of these units sit empty---
Charade? All these new buildings?
It is also a FACT that tons of those units are empty...as EVERYBODY knows, including you.
EVERY building without a Temporary Certificate of Occupancy has ALL of their units empty. The day the building gets the TCO they can start receiving residents. You don't flip a switch and the building is full. This is very basic skyscraper development. It takes some time for closings. 8 months is a reasonable time in this market, of course I added it.

You don't live in Miami, you spend a couple of days every few months, but still call Miami home. The separation anxiety must be horrific! But if you call Miami home, and you agree that you are an ambassador, get your facts and analysis correct. We are here to help.
For starters, don't measure skyscraper units by weight. A ton is 2,000 lbs.
When you make your point that "all these new buildings" have tons of empty units. Instead, be specific with unit numbers or percentages.
All these new buildings CAN'T legally allow residents now. Sooooooo.....why not calculate only the buildings that can legally allow residents. But there is another issue, you can't flip the switch and fill up a building, closings take months just to schedule them in the law office. A good lawyer can close about 5 units per day if all goes well, how many lawyer days is 500 units divided by 5 units a day? It's a hundred days, M-F it's about 5 months...you get the idea, you can speed it up with extra closing agents, it slows down with mortgage complications, holidays, etc.
Wouldn't it be intelligent and intellectually honest to allow for the time it takes fill out the paperwork at the title company, put in the tile, etc.

Real Estate sales figures are a different subject. Of course the market is atrocious, but that is changing the subject. The market is allowing for some fantastic oppotunities for renters and cash buyers. People are moving into the Brickell CBD in higher numbers than in the last decade. It is a work in progress.
It is no Charade, buildings are filling up with young Urbanites, those of us that have moved to the CBD/Brickell in the last few years (can you believe it Spell, there are people that post here who spend 2,160 hours every 3 months in the Brickell/CBD), can say without a bit of hesitation that more and more "young urbanites" are moving in each week. If there are TEN THOUSAND empty units in a building and ONE new "young ubanite" that is an improvement over the surface parking lot that was probably there before. Of course, the number is SIGNFICANTLY more than ONE. Of the buildings that have had an opportunity to season, they are well over 50% full.

Spellbound, here is another tool to help you live vicariously through the lives of Miami residents. http://www.miamiurbanlife.com/
Lots of the "young urbanites" that you don't believe exist.

Roark, I know you live in la la land so I hate to bring you the news of reality, but alot of those buildings are miserably empty. I can tell you from having gone out to do appraisals in each and everyone of them. When I go out there I usually meet or speak with a developer representative. They all tell me the same thing...they are struggling with sales and have soooo many units empty. I remember during the boom they used to treat us appraisers like we were pests. Partly because they were so busy that they didn't want to take time to deal with us and partly because there were so many buyers that they could care less about whether one deal went through or not.

Now when I go out there they roll out a red carpet for me. During the boom when we scheduled an appointment for an inspection of a unit, they would usually have a security guard or maintenance personnel escort me to the unit. Now when I go out there I usually meet with the closing coordinator and they come out to the valet to greet me. They almost always offer coffee and a tour of all the amenities. In other words they are so glad to see an appraiser because it means they are closing a unit. And some of these buildings have had a TCO or CO for more than a year. That's all!

^^I also want to add that the point you are making that a building is taking at least 8 months after being issued a TCO to fill up is not helping your argument. First off, it isn't accurate. At the current pace they are selling it would take at least 2 years to reach about 50% sold. Secondly, during the boom (2003-2005), almost all the units (I would say over 90%) would be under contract for sale at the time the TCO was issued. Some were preconstruction sold and others were made during construction. So when the building got finished it was mostly occupied. Not the case anymore.

This is fact. I can tell you with absolute certainty that what I have presented is accurate since I research these buildings often. Some of the information comes directly from the developer also. If you want to continue living in la la land then go ahead.

i dont get the post on here

people you dont live in the units so stop making assumptions.

opera tower one of the worst empty buildings has 50% of its parking full every night. so how empty is empty?

others who make comments on here and dont even live in florida much less miami.

im so sick and tired of hearing crap from people that dont make up the community.

Roark, I know you live in la la land so I hate to bring you the news of reality, but alot of those buildings are miserably empty.Yes...I live in la la land and a Cop told you that he routinely busts crack houses in Park West.
For you to say "a lot" of buildings are empty is at least a better step towards reality than the guy that said "all the new buildings".
The point wasn't how sales are going, or that sales were going better 2 years ago.

The question is are these buildings filling up with young professionals or is that a charade.
My point does not make the distinction whether the young professional is a renter or an owner. For the neighborhood it doesn't matter. Real estate moves in cycles. Renters are most definitely filling up every building that has units available. That is a fact, not a charade.

The young ubanites are out running the BIKE MIAMI, and at 3:30 the Heat beging the trouncing of the Sixers...see ya, I'm going for a walk and to the game with my young ubanite girlfriend.

^^I also want to add that the point you are making that a building is taking at least 8 months after being issued a TCO to fill up is not helping your argument. First off, it isn't accurate. At the current pace they are selling it would take at least 2 years to reach about 50% sold.Perhaps I wasn't clear. Even if 100% of the units were presold, with 20% down contracts, you can't do all the closing paperwork in one day, or two...it takes weeks and months. That is EVEN IF every preconstruction buyer wants to close. Once the first person fills out the closing paperwork, then he can move in.
Things are obviously different now. Some Developers will now give it about 8 months. If they can't get a preconstruction contract closed in 8 months, it is a lost deal. We default the buyer if they miss the closing date, but still work with them unless another buyer comes along...that isn't happening much anymore.
Secondly, during the boom (2003-2005), almost all the units (I would say over 90%) would be under contract for sale at the time the TCO was issued. Some were preconstruction sold and others were made during construction. So when the building got finished it was mostly occupied.Not true, and that is my point. You were right on up to this sentance...."So when the building got finished it was mostly occupied".

What is true is, when the building got finished, they started to do closings, one at a time. After a person closed, he may or may not occupy the apt, but he had the opportunity to.

What you have said about appraisers is true, I used to direct my people to be very nice to you guys. Your job was very instrumental to getting our building closed.
This is fact. I can tell you with absolute certainty that what I have presented is accurate since I research these buildings often. Some of the information comes directly from the developer also. If you want to continue living in la la land then go ahead.Is La La Land that area of Hialeah where people say that they own an apartment in Miami?

The point wasn't how sales are going, or that sales were going better 2 years ago.

The question is are these buildings filling up with young professionals or is that a charade.
My point does not make the distinction whether the young professional is a renter or an owner. For the neighborhood it doesn't matter. Real estate moves in cycles. Renters are most definitely filling up every building that has units available.

Some renters may be adding a little to the population and are helping to mask the sales side of things, but very little. Quite frankly I'm not sure if they are adding to the population because of a possible equal balance between the incoming renters and outgoing foreclosed. Let's also not give the illusion that renters are moving in by the truck load as you suggest. I'm sure if you call up associations or developer's they can confirm just how many units are being rented or how many have been rented out in the last year. If you look into MLS you will find many rental listings. Many of which expire and get renewed every 6 months or so. There just isn't much demand to live in downtown....yet!:cheers:

The young ubanites are out running the BIKE MIAMI

You're logic is weird and at times confusing. So because urbanites are participating in Bike Miami that's supposed to mean that condo sales or rentals in downtown are doing great? I don't see the connection. If I'm not mistaken biking in Miami has been around for a long long time. But if you want to use events as a gauge of how the state of the local economy is (which is a better indicator to real estate in downtown), then lets look at the boat show last week. Worst participation numbers in over a decade. You preach to everyone to use common sense, but fail to do so yourself.

at 3:30 the Heat beging the trouncing of the Sixers...see ya, I'm going for a walk and to the game with my young ubanite girlfriend.

Is she over 18 yet?

Go HEAT!

Is La La Land that area of Hialeah where people say that they own an apartment in Miami?

It might be, but I wouldn't know since I have never lived or owned in Hialeah. I do own property in the city of Miami and the city of Miami Lakes.

Spellbound, here is another tool to help you live vicariously through the lives of Miami residents. http://www.miamiurbanlife.com/
Lots of the "young urbanites" that you don't believe exist.

Would that be something like the 'real estate bubble' that you used to passionately insist didn't exist?

Not that I'm questioning your vast reservoir of knowledge and pinpoint accuracy on such matters, of course. It's breathtaking.

That said, I find it amusing (in a tedious, seen it before) way that your response to a post that made every effort to discuss things intelligently and amicably would consist largely of personal barbs and the tired, old "outsider" line that you routinely garnish such posts with in an effort to come across as the "insider" you so desperately want to be perceived as. Quite frankly, the "we" in "we are here to help" would fit in a thimble. The number of people who post here---live in Miami fulltime---and (gasp) disagree with you on this and innumerable other items has never been lacking in numbers. Not that you're EVER wrong, of course...just saying.

Regardless, I will once again state the two things thast are essentially ALL I'm saying on this particular topic. First is that the market is in terrible shape currently and under any parameters there is, indeed, a vast number of unoccupied and unsold inventory out there. Second, (and this is the part you routinely ignore) I remain EXTREMELY optimistic that things will turn around in an extremely beneficial manner and that the city I love dearly will have the kind of pulsating downtown core that ALL of us want in time.

(by the way, the suprise party dinner at Prime 112 last Tuesday was spectacular. still amazed I could find the place being such an "outsider" and all. must have been blind luck.) :cheers:

The I LIKE MIAMI bumper sticker campaign was late 60s, or early 70s.

What about....Obama-Locka????? Has a ring to is, doesn't it???

BTW....I hate myself, I have hijacked my own thread! It's your fault spell....your Opa-Locka jokes always make me lose it....!!!

Just gaze upon the majesty of it all and dream of a better world...

http://miami.condocompany.com/Opa-Locka/images/Opa%20Locka.JPG

First is that the market is in terrible shape currently and under any parameters there is, indeed, a vast number of unoccupied and unsold inventory out there.
Obviously.
Second, (and this is the part you routinely ignore) I remain EXTREMELY optimistic that things will turn around in an extremely beneficial manner and that the city I love dearly will have the kind of pulsating downtown core that ALL of us want in time.
So what...I do tend to glance over the obvious. Great, you love and miss Miami. Will change, you say. It IS changing you just aren't here to see it. It is changing and will continue to change.
But you have changed the subject.
Your point was The idea that these buildings filling up with young professionals is a charade..
It is not a charade. THESE BUILDINGS ARE FILLING UP WITH YOUNG PROFESSIONALS.

(by the way, the suprise party dinner at Prime 112 last Tuesday was spectacular. still amazed I could find the place being such an "outsider" and all. must have been blind luck.) :cheers: The new one, or the Prime 112 on Ocean Drive? That opened at least 4 years ago.
That used to be my favorite for business lunches or that upstairs room for entertaining. At night it is loaded up with tourists...what you'd expect for touristy Ocean Drive.

Let's also not give the illusion that renters are moving in by the truck load as you suggest.Did you have Spellbound write that for you?
A truckload?
Let's DO give into the illusion that many renters are, in fact, using trucks to move in. I've see it with my own eyes.

The new one, or the Prime 112 on Ocean Drive? That opened at least 4 years ago.
That used to be my favorite for business lunches or that upstairs room for entertaining. At night it is loaded up with tourists...what you'd expect for touristy Ocean Drive.

Beach location. Me? I would have been just as happy pigging out at Islas Canarias but it was a great night and the food was terrific.

So what...I do tend to glance over the obvious. Great, you love and miss Miami. Will change, you say. It IS changing you just aren't here to see it. It is changing and will continue to change.


Which is why I said the following in a previous post:

"Bustling" still wouldn't be an adjective I'd use but certainly the area continues to make strides. And for now, I'll certainly latch onto that as a positive.

Maybe it was one of those 'obvious' things you skipped right past. Just an idea---but maybe reading things a little more carefully would help you respond to what is actually being said. :cheers:

Beach location. Me? I would have been just as happy pigging out at Islas Canarias but it was a great night and the food was terrific.There are two...Prime 112 and Prime pasti. Both on the beach. Prime 112 has been there at least 4 years.
(by the way, the suprise party dinner at Prime 112 last Tuesday was spectacular. still amazed I could find the place being such an "outsider" and all. must have been blind luck.)
When you put the "outsider" in quotes, the sarcasm is clear....you think that you are in and have discovered a place only insiders are aware of for eating at Prime 112.
The people that are really involved locally knew about Prime 112, and attended the opening parties about 4 years ago. Today, those same people, "young urbanites" (as you call them) are in FACT moving into the CBD/Brickell now and changing the population and vibe of that area rapidly.
It is no charade my Philly friend.
It is happening now, and it is a constant and never ending improvement.

Perhaps you will come down in 4 years from now and notice what people that are here notice each and every day.

When you visit again in a few months, check out De Peroni, an Italian Restaurant that opened two days ago on Flagler & Miami Avenue. I was there today, it was full of young professionals dining inside and on the sidewalk. Don't wait 4 years to be an insider. All you have to do is actually live, work, or walk around the CBD/Brickell area to see what is going on.
If you don't live, work, or walk around the CBD/Brickell area...it's okay.
Just don't post as if you know about the area when you are clearly lacking in relevant knowledge. Nothing personal...I don't know much about Telly Sevalas, Philedelphia, or managing a bar and I'm okay with it. I've only seen about three Kojak episodes, only been to Philly 3 times, and haven't managed a bar since my 20's...I promise not to post about those three topics.

I know that comment was to demonstrate how "in" you are for eating at Prime 112. That is great.
The people that are really involved here knew about Prime 112 about 4 years ago.

Possibly the funniest thing I have ever read here, although I suspect that wasn't the intent.

Silly me, I thought the reference to Prime 112 was a simple statement of where we ATE---along with what a nice time we had there---rather than an invitation to some bizarre rant about God knows what. And where the heck did you get the idea that I didn't know the restaurant existed four year ago, anyway?

Honestly, Roark, I'm sure you're an OK guy and all that but sometimes you come up with the weirdest tangents---seriously.

Anyway, my transplanted non-native friend, as far as the other stuff goes it's apparent that at least one member here who lives there fulltime directly contradicts a lot of what you've claimed as fact. Perhaps you can explain precisely why I (or anybody, for that matter) should listen you as the sole "authority" on such matters when other opinions obviously exist? Are those less valid? Why?

Not saying you don't know your stuff---just that it's not exactly the Voice of God, y'know, and you've been wrong about PLENTY (i.e. where the market was headed most blatantly), but that's OK. I respect your intelligence either way.

By all means, though, please continue to let us all know about whatever fabulous new "in" spot catches your fancy this week. Hopefully some of them will still be open when I next return in a month or two. If not, there's always old standbys like Islas Canarias for us "outside" types to enjoy over and over. :cheers:

Driving down Brickell is just like driving down Peachtree in Atlanta for example, you don't have the canyon feel like you do in Chicago, Boston or New York.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3479/3298330405_d3fa91c714_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3479/3298330405_d3fa91c714_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/3298490027_a2109e0722_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/3298490027_a2109e0722_b.jpg

Silly me, I thought the reference to Prime 112 was a simple statement of where we ATE---along with what a nice time we had there---rather than an invitation to some bizarre rant about God knows what.
(by the way, the suprise party dinner at Prime 112 last Tuesday was spectacular. still amazed I could find the place being such an "outsider" and all. must have been blind luck.)
When you put the "outsider" in quotes, the sarcasm is clear....you think that you are in and have discovered a place only insiders are aware of for eating at Prime 112. Blind luck...come on be honest...it wasn't a simple statement of where you ate. Be honest...the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
You live in Philedelphia! You comment on the CBD/Brickell and don't know what you are talking about! Just stop it already...Get over it. You are gone. Chill out, live vicariously and enjoy.
Originally Posted by spellbound
We need to stop the charade that all these new buildings are filled with dynamic young urbanites rapidly transforming downtown. In reality, tons of these units sit empty---
Downtown IS rapidly changing, but how could you possibly know?
New buildings are filled with dynamic "young ubanites", but how could you possibly know?

If it's genuine honesty you want, here goes...

Basically, I think you're full of crap. You waste intelligent posters time with self-involved, self-promoting boring nonsense that has little relation to reality. The name dropping is beyond stale at this point.

You talk about Miami as if you're some kind of guru, yet NOBODY here got it more wrong than you did---on a very consistent basis---about the RE market a couple of years ago.

I remember when you were the "there's no real-estate bubble" guy, Roark. You even belittled anyone who dared to question it.

They were right. You were wrong.

The views of newbies are always welcome, however.

For starters, what (and who) are you talking about as "Hialeah types?"

When you put the "outsider" in quotes, the sarcasm is clear....you think that you are in and have discovered a place only insiders are aware of for eating at Prime 112. Blind luck...come on be honest...it wasn't a simple statement of where you ate. Be honest...the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
You live in Philedelphia! You comment on the CBD/Brickell and don't know what you are talking about! Just stop it already...Get over it. You are gone. Chill out, live vicariously and enjoy.
Originally Posted by spellbound

Downtown IS rapidly changing, but how could you possibly know?
New buildings are filled with dynamic "young ubanites", but how could you possibly know?

Gee, I live in Idaho! Am I even allowed to post anymore...?

If it's genuine honesty you want, here goes...
Basically, I think you're full of crap. NOBODY here got it more wrong than you did---on a very consistent basis---about the RE market a couple of years ago. You are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.
"Basically", call me out on any fact that I get wrong.
After all this time, you are still confused about the posts about the "Real Estate Bubble". Go re read the posts if you must.

The points were "REAL ESTATE BUBBLE" IS INCORRECT TERMINOLOGY.
REAL ESTATE MOVES IN CYCLES
YOU CAN'T FIND MENTION OF THE PHRASE "REAL ESTATE BUBBLE" PRIOR TO THE INTERNET STOCK BUBBLE
REAL ESTATE DOES NOT DECLINE BY 25% IN ONE WEEK

Get your facts straight, and don't mischaracterize my ideas to try to defend your misleading posts.
I remember when you were the "there's no real-estate bubble" guy, Roark.No....Again, re read those posts. You will not EVER find a post where I said that prices were not going to come down, AND I posted the real estate cycles chart right out of the old Real Estate Development textbook. Over and over and over...

You are changing the point and the subject, and it is a shame that you are playing the victim. Playing the victim will certainly garner you some support, and maybe that is what you are craving.
[/quote]The views of newbies are always welcome, however.[/quote]
EVERYONE is entitled to their own OPINION.
When you post a 750+ word diatribe about what you think Miami needs, without even knowing what Miami has, it is doing a disservice to the people that are working here, and working hard to make this progress happen.

AGAIN, your comment about "young urbanites" not moving into the CBD/Brickell and changing the area is absolutely false. It is a disservice to the community. It is not a fact.
Stick to what you know.

The challenge is still out there, name ONE building that has finished the development process, that is not filling up with residents in the CBD/Brickell. So far, it is astouding how well it is going, adn our friends from Idaho and areas outside of the CBD/Brickell should get the correct information.

Gee, I live in Idaho! Am I even allowed to post anymore...?
Embarcadaro, of course...post away! Have fun, if anyone posts that young professionals are not moving into the CBD/Brickell area though, don't believe them. They have limited exposure, knowledge, and information to be making that statement.

spellbound just shut up dude... your making an ass out of yourself :ohno:

stick to talking about the twin cities or something you really know about.
dont talk about empty condos you havent even stepped in. :bash:

FACT not OPPINION is what matters here.


now can we stop the craziness and get back to talking scrapers :nuts:

I think it is apparent that Roark makes a living in sales. To be more specific real estate sales. To be even more specific downtown real estate. I also believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that he owns property in downtown. I know last year he mentioned that he was closing on a unit in the Ivy. So, it seems to me that he has decided to promote downtown to the end (even if it means twisting facts and figures).

His mindset is to fight tooth and nail with anyone who talks about some of the low points in downtown. What he doesn't understand is that on this website he is interacting with people that are aware of what's really going on in downtown. He may fool the occasional person that drops in from somewhere else, but he doesn't fool those that are in touch with the reality of things in downtown.

I guess he thinks that we might fall for the illusion of a very bustling downtown and spread it to our family and friends. I don't know what he is trying to accomplish.???

I not only work in downtown frequently, but I go there for dining and entertainment occasionally. In the evening the only places I see bustling are some of the more notable restaurants and bars, mainly Blue Martini. Other than that I don't see many people on the streets. It's actually surreal at times how empty it is to be among a canyon of towers and almost no one in sight. I sometimes get reminded of the scene in Vanilla Sky where Tom Cruise walks out into Times Square and there is nobody around. Now do I think it will be like this forever? No. I have seen some progress albeit very little and nowhere to the extent Roark makes it out to be. But I think it will continue to progress and eventually (years from now) be an incredible urban (and bustling) environment. It just isn't a fact to say that it is like that now. So don't be fooled by the man who lives in la la land.

I think you missed the point or I didn't clarify it enough. More clearly, what I'm saying is "hazy" and hard to quantify in concrete numbers is the gap between 24/7 residents and those who may only occasionally be around as part-timers. Everyone knows that there are both.
To give a very specific example, my mom and stepdad maintain homes in both South Florida and North Carolina. The home in North Carolina is only occupied for 3-4 months a year versus 8 or 9 in Tequesta, yet it is fully defined as "occupied" since they obviously pay property taxes on it and must maintain utilities such as water and climate control---like any responsible property owner---to prevent simple neglect as well as legal obligations to their homeowners association(s).
No different with a condo in Miami. To put it simply, the AC running or the lights on/off with a timer is often a VERY poor barometer of whether or not a unit is actually occupied or simply "in wait" for a part-time resident---thus "hazy" to define unless you happen to knock on all those doors each and every day, which I suspect is not the case. That would take a LOT of free time. :lol:
Spell, you write very convincingly. Most of it true.
I got your point...you believe, and you want people to believe that it is
"hazy" and hard to quantify in concrete numbers is the gap between 24/7 residents and those who may only occasionally be around as part-timers

It is NOT hazy, or hard to quantify. Please don't call me a guru, and I promise not to drop the name of Economic Development Director or the City he works for because that also seems to bother poor Spellbound. Others here that might believe that is it hard to quantify might be interested in how it is done.

Most people figured it out from my earlier post. Of course, Spellbounds parent's condo uses electricity. Check with them, I'm sure that you will tell you that the bill is higher when they are there than when they are not there. Similarly, vacant, semi-vacant, and occupied condo units in Miami have different bills according to their usage.
The electic company meters the electricity to know how much to bill (can't believe I'm typing this) the customer each month.
A vacant condo will use a certain amount of Kilowatt-hours, a semi vacant condo will use that much plus a bit more, an fully occupied unit will use that plus some.
By the number of standard deviations from a norm, they can tell how many days per month the unit is occupied or not.

Spell, you are welcome to still THINK that I'm full of crap, but it doesn't make it so. You can also THINK that you would have to knock on every door each and every day, but it doesn't make it so either.

Hope that didn't waste the intelligent poster's time. It was just something I found very interesting.

spellbound just shut up dude... your making an ass out of yourself :ohno:

stick to talking about the twin cities or something you really know about.
dont talk about empty condos you havent even stepped in. :bash:

FACT not OPPINION is what matters here.


now can we stop the craziness and get back to talking scrapers :nuts:

Viturvious, are you serious? I'm not trying to defend anyone here, but are you seriously going to tell me that downtown condos and streets are FULL of people?

Look, I admire how you and the other guy are passionate about downtown, but let's not lie to each other. I love Miami and I'm seriously considering moving to downtown within the next year. But as a person who operates a real estate business, I can tell you that it isn't living up to its potential...not yet. It's no secret that the market is stagnant right now. That's all, have a nice day.

Wow some of you are real whiners, Miami is a very urban city. Despite the reputation for crime and being full of cubans it has grown more than most if not all American cities in the past 20 years. Hell if you look at any the other Florida cities and see how much urban growth they got, the amount combined from all the major urban centers wouldn't even equal Miami. If you look at which Downtown the most grew outside of Miami or Ft. Lauderdale area it might be Orlando or St. Petersburg.

I don't know how you can compare Miami to New York or Chicago as they are the oldest major cities in this country. Miami has only been considered a major city recently around the 80's I don't know how somebody can complain about that kind of growth. Compared to all the other Florida cities you have some kind of decent mass transit in place and you have a diverse population. You can talk about empty condos all day, but there are many empty condos in NYC, Chicago, and just about any other major city in the U.S.

You guys all need to calm down, and Spellbound was just expressing his thoughts. Spellbound's one of the most reliable posters here that's always unbiased and keeping the peace. Chill guys.

I think it is apparent that Roark makes a living in sales. To be more specific real estate sales. To be even more specific downtown real estate.
True. Development Sales for a developer. My work is more about development, not selling individual condos. When I talk about closing periods, TCO's, and absorption, it is because that is what I do. Around 500 closing in the last 3 years.
I have not made a nickel from this website (with one exception), but I like to share information to those that share a passion for skyscrapers.
When I post about a the new restaurant that opened on Flagler 3 days ago, it is because i was there. Last night at 1:15am, there was a traffic jam on 11th Street, and lines outside the doors of the clubs, I drove by...it was nothing like Vanilla Sky. When I walked by Avenue and the other new buildings, I saw young people moving into the building.
Although my family has lived in Miami since the 1920's, my time is only been about 17 years. On South Beach and now downtown. Regulars will note that I only really post about these places in general. It is what I know. My community service, and civic involvement has focused on the Miami River 7 years ago, and is now focused on revitalizing Downtown.
There is no doubt. I put my money where my mouth is.

I don't know much about Hialeah, the 33015 part of Miami Gardens, Philadelphia, so I don't post about it.
I guess he thinks that we might fall for the illusion of a very bustling downtown and spread it to our family and friends. I don't know what he is trying to accomplish.??? Look, there are some image problems about Downtown. Perpetrated by people that don't live there, and only go there occasionally.
Do you remember talking about the crack houses in Park West?
There aren't even houses in Park West.
What I am trying to accomplish is extend facts and information to people that don't live in downtown.
My passion is for skyscrapers and a vibrant downtown. I live and work there everyday. Everyday.

I live in Downtown. I know at least 20 friends that are bankers, lawyers, contractors, developers, that are under the age of 40 that have moved here in the last 2 years. People whose names I could name. It isn't a charade.
you have never heard me post that an area is bustling or not. I don't speak in vaugue terminology like that. The concrete fact is that young professionals are moving in great numbers into buildings that used to be parking lots. The "occassial events" are happening at 3 times as often as they were 2 years ago.

I'm not trying to defend anyone here, but are you seriously going to tell me that downtown condos and streets are FULL of people?That has never been a issue in this discussion.

xxx

The funny part is that the term I used originally was filled rather than filling. Huge chasm of meaning between the two terms, but as usual Roark recasts content to fit his own agenda. I suppose it's easier to respond to statements and words that you simply make up rather than what's actually posted.

The denial of a RE bubble is beyond laughable at this point and makes anyone actually involved in the industry sound absolutely clueless. The term has NEVER meant an "instant" drop in value an/or sales, but simply describes what happens when prices become grossly overinflated due to a high degree of speculation and hype but aren't backed by enough actual demand to sustain those numbers. "Pop" goes the balloon, so to speak. To argue that isn't precisely what has happened in Miami---along with countless other cities---is akin to saying that the sun will rise in the west and the moon is made out of cheese.

Who doesn't understand these things go in cycles? Always have, always will. Is that supposed to be a revelation? It's no defense against getting things completely wrong, however, in regards to where the market was headed or making clueless judgements about things "inside the brackets of the Metromover" somehow magically being impervious to the bubble. If that was the case, we'd have a little thing called Met3 right now along with a LOT more filled units inside those magical "brackets" but we don't. Roark is smart enough to know this---and on occassion even re-establishes contact with reality and admits he's never seen the market this bad---but God forbid anyone else talks about it.

Equally obvious is the fact that others involved in the industry---people who are in the area fulltime---agree not only that there's a vast inventory of unsold/unoccupied units but also see downtown as still being a long way from genuinely bustling, despite obvious and encouraging progress on that front in recent years. In that regard, it may simply be a case of people having far different ideas of what actually constitutes a term like "bustling" and that's fine---but it also means not everybody has to agree with a specific viewpoint.

Anyway, you poor folks have endured more than enough of this pissing contest and it doesn't serve the board well. Roark and I will simply have to agree to disagree, as we VERY frequently do. :lol:

The bottom line (for me) is this: Miami will always be home, I'm back down there all the time, and know the city and its history VERY well. I adore the place and remain absolutely confident and optimistic about the future there.

Like any city, though, it has an ample supply of pluses and minuses. I don't see this format as some kind of Chamber of Commercce adjunct filled with pollyannas (our own moderator is one of the harshest critics of local architecture, after all) nor should it be filled with negativity and ethnic barbs---as has sometimes been the case, sadly. Instead, I think this board is at its BEST when there's honest, open debate about all that's good, bad, or simply 'in progress' about the city ALL of us hold close to our hearts, and when we respect the fact that intelligent, knowledgeable people can and WILL disagree on things.

I have too many great (and fun) relationships with the overwhelming majority of you fellas to spend all my time here going back and forth with one guy, even if that one guy and I would probably get along just fine if we ever actually met. It's a message board...not the real world.

This has strayed too far from the original topic, anyway. SORRY Embarcadero! :cheers:

This has strayed too far from the original topic, anyway. Of course it has! You changed the topic.

Rather than just come clean for your fans and say, "Hey, sorry, I really don't have any empirical data to support my claims, I just like posting about downtown because I'm homesick. I was talking out about what I thought was going on." You change the message, change the focus to the messenger, and play victim. Please.

If you start an intelligent conversation about the number of young professionals moving into the CBD/Brickell as being a charade, be prepared to support it with facts and numbers.

Please quantify "tons of condos". If you can put a percentage on it, then we can investigate it. Pick ONE building that has had a chance to complete the development process. Please pick one in the CBD/Brickell area. It will be insightful, I promise.

The issue IS NOT whether there are empty units or not...of course there are. I tried to explain to you why most of them are empty. Every unit at Marquis is empty! Of course, it hasn't finished the development process. Not many closings at Infinity, of course, it hasn't finished the development process. Find buildings from the last 4 years that have had ample time to close units, and you will see that the average in the CBD/Brickell is well over 70%.

You may be surprised to find out that Ivy at Riverfront has closed over 50%, and they are renting their developer owned apartments as fast as they can get the flooring in. That is over 250 units on a former parking lot. If 2 professionals live there that is an improvement, the number is much higher.
The suits at Related's CondoLease Finders are reporting similar results, once they finish them off, young professionals are moving in. I happened to meet two of them at Viceroy...the work in progress is progressing, and it isn't a charade as you have suggested. These are quantifiable facts.

There is a building on Brickell Avenue that has closed 40%, at least 4 rented to people I know personally, the other 60% are going to be sold for a deep discount. Those 60% were never available rental inventory, but will be in about 40 days. These will slowly absorb into the market and more and more young professionals will move in to the area within the brackets of the MetroMover.

Really, I just bring you that facts. Obviously with the slant of an optimist, because I'm a happy guy!

How about a compromise. You're both right, in different ways. Yes, there are buildings that are not as filled as the others. Take the riverfront project for example. They are not as filled as the rest, such as 900, Marina, 50, One Miami. Plaza is another project that is not as filled. Avenue, Axis, Infinity and obviously Opera. Those are buildings that because they are further inland, they are not as filled.

Roark, you have consistently been responding angrily to words and concepts that were NEVER written by me, and have continued to do so even after being corrected repeatedly. Happens all the time on formats such as this, but let's set the record straight (again).

First of all, you have repeatedly used the term "filling" in reference to my comments about residential activity when, in fact, I NEVER used that word. What I said was "FILLED." Huge difference in meaning, yet you seem oblivious to the error. Either that, or you are changing it intentionally but I would hope that's not the case.

Needless to say, a term like "filling" can have a far broader definition than the more concrete "filled." For instance, you can give anectdotal evidence of 'young urbanite' types moving into a building---whether it's three of them or 300---and claim that it is "filling" with them. That's all well and good, but it's also not what I said. "Filled" means just that, and as such you have been running with a faulty premise from the start of this.

Further, you really have no idea (nor do I) the actual number of people fitting that description who are moving/have moved into these units. Absolutely some have---and that's wonderful and something I have never disputed---but it's no doubt equally true that plenty of units are occupied by part-timers, retirees, and others who would constitute a very different demographic. It's a mixed-bag, just as the overall market dynamics are right now. Success stories, to be sure, but also some very gloomy numbers that are pretty daunting. You know this to be true.

Another error (although I have to admit it's pretty funny) came in your response to the whole "Prime 112" thing. I was honestly mystified by your reaction to what I said about it and only in re-reading the post in question did I figure out how you completely misread it. Apparently, you took the term "find it" to mean that I had somehow 'discovered' the place when all it meant was a tongue-in-cheek reference to being able to DRIVE there without getting lost (being such an "outsider" and all). No harm, no foul but the error shouldn't go uncorrected.

Essentially, all I (and some others) have said here is that the downtown core is not FILLED with a critical mass of young urbanite residents and that downtown still has some ways to go before I would describe it as truly 'bustling,' even though progress has certainly been made (which I have ALSO said repeatedly). I also remain extremely optimistic that downtown will arrive at the destination we all want---even if I don't think it's really there NOW.

Anyway, I hope this helps in at least clearing up a few errors and misperceptions. If I have wrongly quoted you, I would hope you'd do the same.

For the sake of this thread and the board in general, I'd hope we can move past this or perhaps take it to private messaging but I'll leave that decision up to you.

(and apologies for flying off the handle a bit in a previous post---that's not my style)

Fair enough. After re-reading your original statement in context, it is very hard to get a handle on what the point was.
The premise opened by you was:
Originally Posted by spellbound
We need to stop the charade that all these new buildings are filled with dynamic young urbanites rapidly transforming downtown. In reality, tons of these units sit empty---that is the direct quote.
#1 You assume there is a "charade".
-----Is there? If you meant filled, then, who thinks that every unit is filled by a young urbanite. Who started that charade. Never heard of such a thing

My point was, it is a work in progress. A large amount of young professionals (that probably weigh more than a ton) have moved into the area and it is changing more rapidly than at any time in the last 17 years.

#2 You still haven't defined "tons of empty units". What do you mean by that. Are you counting the empty units in Marquis?
I'm not angry...a bit annoyed at the vaugue accounts that seem to undermine the reality of what is reallly happening. Maybe you aren't, and that is why I continually ask for clarrfication of things like a "ton of empty" units means. What charade is being perpetrated and by whom.

Roark you make me laugh, seriously. I'm really starting to believe that you are just getting a kick out of getting responses from people no matter what it takes.

You talk about providing statistical data to back up your claims yet you haven't provided any yourself. Since you are the "insider" and the one living in the area these shouldn't be hard for you to come by, right? So why have you not presented them already and shut us all up? Instead you keep using personal accounts like "I saw some young people moving in the other day" or I saw traffic on 11th street at 1 AM saturday night. Which btw was probably because of a club or something being that it was on a sturday night. People do drive from outside of downtown to party in downtown. It doesn't mean that they all live in downtown or that downtown is very dense. I'm not saying using personal accounts isn't valid, but they're not official statistics and coming from you they don't hold as much merit (none with me at this point) as they would from someone else seeing how wrong you often are. As they say...show me the money! I would also like to ask if downtown is so dynamic and full of young urbanites, why are major retailers (such as Whole Foods & Macy's to just name a few) leaving? They must not have talked to you! :lol:

Please don't try to feed us that crap also about what charade and from who. YOU are the one giving a charade or false impression of downtown. If I were someone from another city who had never been to Miami I would have thought that the streets of downtown were always filled with excitement and traffic no matter what time by your description. Someone correct me if I'm wrong or if I've just been lucky, but I don't think it has ever taken me more than 5 minutes to go all the way down Brickell Avenue in my car. Not at 12 noon, 5 PM nor 9 PM. The only time I get stuck in traffic is when the drawbridge is up (that's not due to heavy vehicular or pedestrian traffic). Now try driving down 10 blocks on the main avenue of an established urban city such NY, Chicago, LA. You get heavy traffic from both autos and pedestrians. It would take you 20+ minutes to drive the same length Brickell Avenue is. That is why it only takes 5 minutes to drive the entire length of Brickell...because there isn't heavy traffic (unlike what you claim)!!

Now as others on here have said before, I too believe that downtown will become this super dense area where young (and old) can live a dynamic urban lifestyle, but it isn't quite there yet. The buildings are there (although it could get denser, there is vacant land), but the units are mainly vacant (developer or bank owned) along with ownership by non-full time residents. I estimate that until at least 80% of the current inventory are filled by people who work and live year round (by that I mean owned or rented...the other 20% can be a mix of out-of-towners and vacant), downtown will remain a "shell" of a true super dense urban area.

..

I have to wonder about your mentality in general, perhaps you feel that you gave up on the area, and expected the area to fall part once you left. It must have killed you to see that not only did it not fall apart but thrived, and saw an epic boom of historic proportions.

That's such a sad and gross mischaracterization of how I feel. Miami will always be home and I love it dearly. I want nothing but success for the city---in everything from economic matters to winning results for our sports teams. To have to say as much here REPEATEDLY is beyond ludicrous at this point, frankly.

Why in the world would you think I "gave up" on the area? People move, dude. The average American moves something like 8 or 9 times in a lifetime, in fact. Staying in one place is the exception, not the norm (not that there's the slightest thing wrong with doing either).

I left---by choice---for a variety of reasons but NONE of those reasons involved any dislike for Miami. Basically, I simply missed the Northeast after going to college in Boston---I absolutely LOVE having four seasons---and I felt the economic opportunities would be better for me elsewhere, which has turned out to be the case. Does that make me a bad guy? Sheesh.

I have always tried to be an "ambassador" of sorts, as well. I have run into MANY transplants from the area (far more than I ever thought I would) and sadly they most frequently have a very negative opinion of the area. I always try to rebut them by asking if they've been back down lately and have seen some of the positive changes. It doesn't always work, frankly, but at least the effort is there. Additionally, I have tried to help many friends who are planning or thinking about a trip down with helpful suggestions of things and places they may enjoy---especially some that may be off the beaten track. They seem appreciative of it.

My roots in Miami are deep and abiding. I still own property there, my family has run a business in the same location for over a half-century (I'd be more than happy to provide you or anyone else here a free fishing trip if you like), and---seriously---do you know of ANY other 'transplant' who returns down there as frequently as I do?

If we disagree about some particulars of the market--such as how "bustling" downtown truly is at this point in time---then so be it. Others who live there fulltime seem to agree, but either way I would hope any disagreements could be CIVIL and respectful ones, rather than imaginary personal biases and ludicrous assertions of motivations that have absolutely no basis in reality.

I hardly think it unfair of me to ask for that much.

Spell, I sense some frustration in your recent postings. I understand how you feel, although it doesn't really bother me. If ignorant people bothered me I would live my entire life miserable because they're everywhere (even in Philadelphia, although probably not as much as here :)). I would like to say that I find you to be a smart fella and a person who sees things the way they are. I also find that you are able to clearly express yourself in writing. You have made it clear to me that you are sentimental to Miami and wish only the best for it. If some others on here can't see that then they are either blind, stupid or playing games with you. I think we all know how downtown really is. Some just seem to not acknowledge it for whatever reason.

With that I said, I too love Miami and downtown. It has majestic buildings and a skyline we are all proud of. Many of which were built within the last 5 years. But it hasn't turned out how people envisioned back as recently as 2005 in terms of human density. All you have to do is read/see the news everyday to see that the local, national and worldwide economy are in serious crisis. Some developers are getting slapped with lawsuits by banks. Some banks have gone under or are going bankrupt. Some developers are resorting to renting out the units just to recoup losses (or if not losses, then loss of some of the expected profit). Do you really believe they built these buildings to rent them out? ;)

We have seen many projects that were already approved get canceled. We have also seen major retailers vacate the area. Now maybe there are more renters in downtown than ever, but I bet a good percentage of those renters were people who went from owning a condo in downtown to now renting one. One thing I have noticed is how certain people are quick to point out how the population is greater than ever. Okay that's fine, I agree, but that's not the point. The point is we are not where we want it to be. Of course the numbers are greater even with a poor market. The city has always been growing. Guess what? Ocala's population grew in the last 3 years also. It's only natural for cities to grow in population as the entire world's population grows. The only exceptions I can think of where the population might not grow in Miami is after a major hurricane or radiation contamination from a Turkey Point meltdown. Take Katrina in New Orleans for instance.

My point is not or has ever been that the population is decreasing. My point has always been that downtown Miami isn't where it was expected to be. It just feels empty with so many high-rises nowhere near full. That's all.

----____--This is STUPID--_____----

----____--This is STUPID--_____----

Thanks for pointing that out buddy. I guess it wasn't stupid enough though to keep you from chiming in. Darn!

No it was just above that threshold, but the intent was just a glimming hope it would end.

We have also seen major retailers vacate the area. We have? Is that a fact?
I don't know of a single major retailer that has vacted, or even any minor retailers that have vacated. Please share the specific names.

We have? Is that a fact?
I don't know of a single major retailer that has vacted, or even any minor retailers that have vacated. Please share the specific names.

Macy's

Macy's
Macy's is still there and has no plans to move their the retail operations.
But, you posted retailers...as in plural; more than one. You only listed one retailer that retailer is NOT moving from the CBD.
Please educate me and those people that would like to know what is going on in downtown. I'm curious.

Originally Posted by Endeavor305
We have also seen major retailers vacate the area.
We have? Is that a fact?

Please educate me and those people that would like to know what is going on in downtown. I'm curious.

Ooooh you want me to educate you now huh. I have been all this time but you haven't been listening. You know for someone who claims to live in downtown you don't know much :lol:.

Here's another one for you...Whole Foods.

We have? Is that a fact?

Yes it is a Fact. F A C T...fact! fact! fact!

Just because you're hand job business is thriving doesn't mean the other businesses are :lol::cheers::banana:

Here's another one for you...Whole Foods. Yes, another one. Another swing and a miss.

Whole Foods has never occupied a space in the CBD and has not vacated a space in the CBD. Macy's is occupying space and isn't leaving. Do you want to keep trying to guess at it?

When you posted it Endeavor, you wrote it so confidently. I thought for sure I might have missed something.

So the truth is, no major retailer (singular) or retailers (plural) have left downtown, you just made a simple mistake, or were just uninformed, guessed incorrectly, or maybe you don't have dictionary handy to define the word vacate. It's okay. Don't get upset and frustrated.

Yes, another one. Another swing and a miss.

Whole Foods has never occupied a space in the CBD and has not vacated a space in the CBD. Macy's is occupying space and isn't leaving. Do you want to keep trying to guess at it?

When you posted it Endeavor, you wrote it so confidently. I thought for sure I might have missed something.

So the truth is, no major retailer (singular) or retailers (plural) have left downtown, you just made a simple mistake, or were just uninformed, guessed incorrectly, or maybe you don't have dictionary handy to define the word vacate. It's okay. Don't get upset and frustrated.

Whole Foods is a valid example. They had an agreement in place to open up shop and backed out because of the slow and uncertain market. Vacate the agreement or a physical location is a distinction in detail you are choosing to fit your needs, but the principle remains the same. FACT! HA!

You wanna know what I really think by the way you talk and act...

I think you're a miserable person. I think you're miserable because you have no friends. I think that's why you try to fit in with the "in" crowd. You go to all these events to try and be someone you're not. Then you come on here and tell us about how you were at some opening party for a new club with your banker and lawyer "friends". Or how you ate lunch two tables away from Tibor Hollo. I really hate to break it to you and I've held it back for a long time now, but no one cares. Let me ask you, what kind of real "insider" or "big timer" lives a glamorous lifestyle but yet finds time throughout the day to come on here and talk down to the "little people" (as you apparently see us) like you do?

I bet you are also bitter because downtown isn't what you expected it to be. I bet when you bought your condo you thought you were going to be living life in the fast lane. I bet you thought you were going to become a popular person, something you never were before. I also bet you are bitter because you overpaid for that condo. Well it's too bad for you. I honestly feel sorry for people like you.

As for me...I'll admit I'm a small person in society. I have my own little business and house which I'm proud of, but I'm not a big timer who wears a suit to work everyday and thats just fine by me. I'm happy and comfortable. I don't have any major worries or stress and I live the way I want to live. I don't care about what other people think about me outside of that I'm polite, honest, respectful and a man of my word. On the weekends my girlfriend and I go out with our REAL friends and we get drunk and have fun. It might not always be at Prime 112 or some other elite place, but we always have fun.

Whole Foods is a valid example. They had an agreement in place to open up shop and backed out because of the slow and uncertain market. Vacate the agreement or a physical location is a distinction in detail you are choosing to fit your needs, but the principle remains the same. FACT! HA!No, vacate is a word that you can look up in a dictionary.
Macy's did not vacate their retail operations in downtown.
Whole Foods did not vacate their retail operations in downtown either.
You posted, "We have also seen major retailers leave the area". You have not listed one single retailer that has left the area, and you posted that there were more than one.

You wanna know what I really think by the way you talk and act... No.
It will no doubt be an emotional reaction with little basis in fact.
Much in the same way you post about Downtown like you think you know it, you will likely post about a person like you think you know them.

It is more interesting to post and read about skyscrapers, urban life and living in Miami and Miami Beach with intelligent, mature people that know what they are posting about.

I am happy, proud, and enthusiastic about the state of Downtown. It has made exponential progress in a rapid period of time. There is constant improvement and it is great to have contributed to it. National retailers are not moving out of downtown, there are no crack houses Park West, young professionals are moving in and changing the look and feel of this great city at a rate that is unprecedented.

What does Miami need? People that either lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

No, vacate is a word that you can look up in a dictionary. Whole Foods did not vacate their retail operations in downtown either.

Dictionary definition of vacate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vacate)

1: to make legally void : annul

Since you want to break out the dictionary here it is. The main definition is to make legally void. I think this applies to an agreement. Vacate is not bound to something physical. In other words it is not inaccurate to say that "Whole Foods vacated the agreement they entered". I would also like to mention that Whole Foods is about as good of a store to use as an example to demonstrate the stagnant downtown market. Everyone needs to eat right? So wouldn't a grocery store be more prone to survival over another type of retail store? Especially a grocery like Whole Foods who caters to young, fit, athletic and professional people who like to bike as you always say.

No.
It will no doubt be an emotional reaction with little basis in fact.

I think it is clear that you are miserable. What other explanation is there for someone who says such things as...

Yes, another one. Another swing and a miss.

Do you want to keep trying to guess at it?

...you just made a simple mistake, or were just uninformed, guessed incorrectly, or maybe you don't have dictionary handy to define the word vacate. It's okay. Don't get upset and frustrated.

And then you say this to Spell...

Rather than just come clean for your fans and say, "Hey, sorry, I really don't have any empirical data to support my claims, I just like posting about downtown because I'm homesick.

I promise not to drop the name of Economic Development Director or the City he works for because that also seems to bother poor Spellbound.

Stick to what you know.

When you put the "outsider" in quotes, the sarcasm is clear....you think that you are in and have discovered a place only insiders are aware of for eating at Prime 112. Blind luck...come on be honest...it wasn't a simple statement of where you ate. Be honest...the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
You live in Philedelphia! You comment on the CBD/Brickell and don't know what you are talking about! Just stop it already...Get over it. You are gone. Chill out, live vicariously and enjoy.

Downtown IS rapidly changing, but how could you possibly know?
New buildings are filled with dynamic "young ubanites", but how could you possibly know?

That last one really displays how much of a dick and miserable you really are.

Then you also got this on the record...

There are two...Prime 112 and Prime pasti. Both on the beach. Prime 112 has been there at least 4 years. When you put the "outsider" in quotes, the sarcasm is clear....you think that you are in and have discovered a place only insiders are aware of for eating at Prime 112.
The people that are really involved locally knew about Prime 112, and attended the opening parties about 4 years ago. Don't wait 4 years to be an insider.

Then here comes the pompous sarcasm...

Did you have Spellbound write that for you?
A truckload?

It goes on and on...those were just examples from this thread only and from only the last week! Imagine if I kept going back months and into other threads....I would have page after page of negative, pompous and condescending quotes from you. So what am I supposed to think when I read such arrogant, pompous and condescending comments over and over again? The only thing I can think of is that you are one miserable person. If you were truly happy, such spiteful and negative things wouldn't be said. I really think you need to find hapiness dude.

That's all!:banana:

Yes, another one. Another swing and a miss.

Whole Foods has never occupied a space in the CBD and has not vacated a space in the CBD. Macy's is occupying space and isn't leaving. Do you want to keep trying to guess at it?

When you posted it Endeavor, you wrote it so confidently. I thought for sure I might have missed something.

So the truth is, no major retailer (singular) or retailers (plural) have left downtown, you just made a simple mistake, or were just uninformed, guessed incorrectly, or maybe you don't have dictionary handy to define the word vacate. It's okay. Don't get upset and frustrated.

Roark, what is your vision of downtown Miami? Do you hope it turns into a massive CBD like in Boston or New York?


Answer this one question, was South Florida one of the harder hit areas in this country with the real estate burst? Also, yes or no, were a lot of the new skyscrapers that are residential, built on speculation? Or were they built on solid sales?

Roark, what is your vision of downtown Miami? Do you hope it turns into a massive CBD like in Boston or New York?Answer to Question #1 That it be a great place to work and live.
Answer to Question #2 No.
Answer this one question, was South Florida one of the harder hit areas in this country with the real estate burst?
Answer to Question #3 Seems like it from what has been written, but I don't know many details about buildings outside of the Downtown Miami or Beaches area.
Also, yes or no, were a lot of the new skyscrapers that are residential, built on speculation?
Answer to Question #4....Yes, every skyscraper built is built on speculation. The developer of the Empire State Building speculated that he could build the building, rapidly lease it up and make a profit. The person that buys a residential condo on the 43rd floor is speculating that the developer will actually build 42 floors under it. What is the point?
Or were they built on solid sales?
Answer to Question #5 No sale is solid until it closes. I can tell you that well over 80% of condominium units that went vertical in the CBD/Brickell had 20% downpayments paid in advance.
Buildings that have completed their development cycles are definitely filing up. It's a beautifull thing!

There should be a museum, for just the history of Miami itself!

I was in Downtown Miami yesterday morning. I hadn't been since last February, so I decided to park my car and take a brisk walk through some of the streets, taking advantage of the dry, relatively sunny weather.

I will say this first -- Downtown Miami isn't as bad as many people make it out to be and it has improved considerably since I've been living here. On a Saturday morning, I expected a complete ghost town, but people were actually outdoors walking around, many with kids and/or dogs. Most of it felt relatively safe (even though I was carrying a fairly expensive camera), although it got a little too creepy for my liking the further north west I walked.

I think the condos are a nice addition on the whole (especially to the skyline), but they are not the be all and ell all of urban redevelopment. The economy is in the toilet right now, but I hope that once things start picking up again, people will continue to move Downtown. However, I believe that for that to happen, Downtown Miami needs the following:

- More abundance of retail. This would include a Publix / Whole Foods supermarket, a Barnes & Nobles/Borders and perhaps even a proper indoor shopping mall.

- There are still too many vacant/derelict areas, or areas that have been concreted over to make parking lots. Instead of building, perhaps these areas could be converted into mini parks, filled with trees, much like Bayfront Park.

- Some of the main streets Downtown could be pedestrianized, creating a more "walkable" feel.

- Downtown Miami (and Miami in general) would also benefit from a world class museum (perhaps a combined science/natural history museum).

- I know it will never happen, but I would love to see a huge Amtrak terminus built Downtown, as big as Grand Central Station in New York, with high speed rail links to Orlando / further north.

- There are still so many homeless people sleeping rough Downtown. More help and assistance should be given to these people so that they can move on and at least try to get their lives back. Those who are mentally ill should be cared for.

- A lot of the buildings Downtown simply need a good clean / paint job, which would make a huge difference for a small amount of money.

Downtown Miami has a lot of potential, but that all depends on those condos getting filled, particularly filled with people who will actually care about the area. However, if the goal is to get people to move to Downtown Miami, Downtown Miami needs to be more "livable" in terms of amenities, safety and cleanliness.

The one thing that needs to be taken care of (which is happening now) is the homeless situation. Obviously downtown will never be without them, but there are just too many. When I drive down 8 st, next to Marina Blue, its depressing. They are like sardines, one next to the other.

The one thing that needs to be taken care of (which is happening now) is the homeless situation. Obviously downtown will never be without them, but there are just too many. When I drive down 8 st, next to Marina Blue, its depressing. They are like sardines, one next to the other.

You'll always have homeless people, but you're right -- there are far too many downtown.

Any plans involving the regeneration and renovation of Downtown Miami should include solutions to the homeless situation.

The one thing that needs to be taken care of (which is happening now) is the homeless situation. Obviously downtown will never be without them, but there are just too many. When I drive down 8 st, next to Marina Blue, its depressing.
It is no coincidence that the homeless shelter is at 8th street next to Marina Blue.
I'm not sure how many times we have to go over and over and over this....the homeless shelter is moving.

They won't be handing out free food and free beds in this area in the very near future.
When the free food and free beds move to the new homeless shelter, so will the homeless people.

What really needs to be taken care of is a cure for Polio.

^^Thats why I mentioned that its being taken care of now. This problem should have been taken care several years ago!

^^Thats why I mentioned that its being taken care of now. This problem should have been taken care several years ago!
You mean the Polio???

If you know it is being taken care of or was taken care of, why still post about it??

The one thing that needs to be taken care of (which is happening now) is the stopping cars forward motion by sticking your feet on the ground and causing friction situation.

The good news:

-The homeless shelter in Downtown is moving

-MAM and Miami Science Museum are buiding new world-class buildings at a revamped Bicentennial Park.

-Although not in Downtown, Miami is getting its Grand Central Station near MIA with the Miami Central Station.

-Some of the empty lots have been reconverted as parks: ie: the mini park on Flagler Street.

So, the good news is, a lot of the things you requested are coming true in different shapes and forms. The DDA has worked to help clean up Flagler Street, by taking down windows bars, added topiary, rebricked sidewalks, added new trashbins, benches and lamps. It's a matter of time. I do agree with you though, Downtown does need more supermarkets, retail, a movie theatre and definitely a bookstore. We're getting there though!

The good news:

-The homeless shelter in Downtown is moving

-MAM and Miami Science Museum are buiding new world-class buildings at a revamped Bicentennial Park.

-Although not in Downtown, Miami is getting its Grand Central Station near MIA with the Miami Central Station.

-Some of the empty lots have been reconverted as parks: ie: the mini park on Flagler Street.

So, the good news is, a lot of the things you requested are coming true in different shapes and forms. The DDA has worked to help clean up Flagler Street, by taking down windows bars, added topiary, rebricked sidewalks, added new trashbins, benches and lamps. It's a matter of time. I do agree with you though, Downtown does need more supermarkets, retail, a movie theatre and definitely a bookstore. We're getting there though!

All positive stuff. Good point about a movie theater as that would be an excellent idea. I'll go one stage further and suggest an IMAX theater, since Miami doesn't have one and an attraction like that would be a great way to attract people to Downtown Miami.

No one can expect the improvements to happen overnight, especially during these tough economic times, but I believe it's all moving in the right direction.

You mean the Polio???

If you know it is being taken care of or was taken care of, why still post about it??

The one thing that needs to be taken care of (which is happening now) is the stopping cars forward motion by sticking your feet on the ground and causing friction situation.

that was TRULY funny !!!

when i lived in miami in the late 70s 1980s i often went to omini mall...is it still there? saw sat night fever there...at the omni theaters..

when i lived in miami in the late 70s 1980s i often went to omini mall...is it still there? saw sat night fever there...at the omni theaters..

The Omni building is still there, but it's no longer a mall. It's been under a major revamping to convert it into a hotel/retail/office complex. Miami International University of Art and Design is there now too.

The Omni building is still there, but it's no longer a mall. It's been under a major revamping to convert it into a hotel/retail/office complex. Miami International University of Art and Design is there now too.

that's too bad...cuz it is exactly what miami needs NOW!

All positive stuff. Good point about a movie theater as that would be an excellent idea. I'll go one stage further and suggest an IMAX theater, since Miami doesn't have one and an attraction like that would be a great way to attract people to Downtown Miami.

The new science museum is planning an IMAX theatre.

Miami needs to diversify its economy a little more. There have been great steps taken toward that goal in recent years, but one path has been entirely overlooked. Compared with other cities, Miami have a relatively small number of colleges and students. Great cities don't rely on other cities to educate their youth. FIU is making great strides and UMiami is already a fantastic institution, but I think Miami could really benefit from a great liberal arts college. Miami's reputation as a party city has also given it a reputation as a city that, eh, less than intellectual. A lot of creative, innovative people who otherwise may consider Miami avoid it because there is, for right or wrong, a stigma that intelligent conversation is not to be had in South Florida (I have heard this quite a bit on my returns to Baltimore and DC). I think if Miami's business leaders pulled together to found a liberal arts college, or better yet a collection akin to the Claremont Colleges, it would go a long way towards giving Miami a well-rounded image, the kind of place where there is something for everyone, which, in my opinion, is key to being a world-class city, but we'll save that one for the other thread.

^^Agreed. Not that you can't get a wonderful education in South Florida but the area lacks the kind of overall intellectual 'heft' seen in some other cities. Some of that is unavoidable, of course. There isn't a critical mass of world-class universities such as in Boston---where the production of intellectual capital is in every sense a local industry with global reach---nor is Miami a city like D.C. where a huge percentage of the best jobs require advanced, specialized degrees.

Still, it's true that too many of the 'best and brightest' seek educational opportunities elsewhere. I've always wished that Florida had something of the California model in that regard---where the University of California (even if the Berkeley campus is still the nexus) offers outstanding campuses throughout the state. It would be great to see UF---as the state university with by far the greatest resources---do something similar, starting with a great liberal-arts institution in Miami or elsewhere in South Florida.

Miami needs to diversify its economy a little more. There have been great steps taken toward that goal in recent years, but one path has been entirely overlooked. Compared with other cities, Miami have a relatively small number of colleges and students.
Interesting post. At a fundraiser for Miami-Dade College foundation, there were some surprising facts mentioned. Miami-Dade Community College was one of the largest Community Colleges in the US.
Now there are 4 year programs, Miami-Dade College dropped the "community college" status and is the largest college in Florida, and top 5 in the United States by enrollment. MDC lags behind the Air Force system, University of Phoenix (online students included), and the City University of New York system.
For perspective, MDC is in the top five, and the University of Florida doesn't crack the top ten in the US.
So, educational opportunity exists for a large number of students, but it is safe to say that the quality of institutions compared to Boston or Philedelphia is better.

Business leaders and educators are well aware of the challenge to improve educational quality. Far from being overlooked, it is a priority.

3. Central Park South - although I have no clue where to make one, Miami needs its own version of Central Park, Golden Gate Park, or Stanley Park in Vancouver BC
Not really shure if you can compare them since Miami has a great beach where people can hang out.
But Flamingo Park on South Beach could be such a place. On a map it even looks like Central Park.

4. Permanent amusement park - similar to Navy Pier in Chicago, Pier 39 in San Francisco, La Ronde in Montreal, or Santa Monica Pier in California. I am not talking about a full blown theme park, but something filled with fun. I always thought Watson Island was a perfect spot for such a place. (Btw, Bayside does not fulfill my idea of the kind of amusement area I am talking about. Need some permanent place to take a date on a Ferris wheel ride)...
Defenitly with you on that one.
I'm also thinking Watson Island. It would be awesome if you could do it on both sides of the road. Imagine a roller coaster going over the McArthur Causeway, how cool wouldn't that be?! :D

- I know it will never happen, but I would love to see a huge Amtrak terminus built Downtown, as big as Grand Central Station in New York, with high speed rail links to Orlando / further north.

Totally agree. A underground rail draged from the airport to somewhere in front of the Bayfront Park would be awesome.

I just had an idea, what if MDC's Wolfson Campus went independent and formed a new liberal arts college?! Perhaps, Wolfson College? or Miami College?

So, educational opportunity exists for a large number of students, but it is safe to say that the quality of institutions compared to Boston or Philedelphia is better.


It's a difficult proposition since Ivy Leaguers like Penn, Harvard, Princeton, etc. literally have endowments in the billions and precious few places can compete with that. They are the cream of the crop and (for better or worse) continue to produce the people that basically run this country.

It's a money issue, and no South Florida institution is playing on that field even if you CAN get a damn good education down there regardless.

Peter brought up a good point though, imo, in that the region would be enriched by an outstanding liberal-arts intsitution...maybe something along the lines of, say, a Stanford that started out a late bloomer endowed by private money but grew into an academic giant (and one that largely incubated the internet revolution---bringing a LOT of wealth and prestige to that region).

I don't know if there's one clear, logical way to achieve something like that but I do think the state should perhaps follow a bit of the California model and not necessarily concentrate all the best-paid and most renowned intellectual capital in Gainesville and Tallahassee but fully branch the state university system into the urban centers. If there can be a UCLA in Los Angeles why can't there be a 'UFM' in Miami?

Interesting post. At a fundraiser for Miami-Dade College foundation, there were some surprising facts mentioned. Miami-Dade Community College was one of the largest Community Colleges in the US.
Now there are 4 year programs, Miami-Dade College dropped the "community college" status and is the largest college in Florida, and top 5 in the United States by enrollment. MDC lags behind the Air Force system, University of Phoenix (online students included), and the City University of New York system.
For perspective, MDC is in the top five, and the University of Florida doesn't crack the top ten in the US.
So, educational opportunity exists for a large number of students, but it is safe to say that the quality of institutions compared to Boston or Philedelphia is better.

Business leaders and educators are well aware of the challenge to improve educational quality. Far from being overlooked, it is a priority.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Miami Dade is one of the largest colleges in the country (and formerly the largest community college) so to suggest that Miami is lacking that quantity would be wrong.

I do agree however that Miami does not have great choices for an "excellent" university experience (by which I am refering to the commonly accepted US News College Rankings, etc). University of Miami, which is arguably South Florida's best university, is at best in the second to third tier of college education.

While I don't disagree that Miami could use a UCLA-esque school, they don't sprout up overnight. It takes generations to build a school's reputation.

All I ask is for a great public transportation system. With a supposed "World" city we live in, I shouldn't even have to ask. It should be here already.

Plant shade trees until it hurts ,especially in the sparse areas of Miami-Dade. But hey don't leave out the beautiful Royal and Coconut palm trees,those are my favorite.

Interesting points. I stand corrected, Roark, but are you aware of what the plan is? Is there a long-term plan that consists of more than just "foster higher education?" Does it include founding new colleges or encouraging the growth of existing colleges, likely FIU? I haven't seen evidence of either. One can hardly argue that the community has come to the aid of FIU as its funding has been repeatedly slashed. I spent seven years at FIU and they never asked me for a single dollar. Now, I get requests for donations on a weekly basis. Times are hard.

I would still argue that it's not entirely accurate to suggest that Miami-Dade College fills the void. Technically, it may be one of the largest colleges in the country, but let's be real. The school is only so large because the county is large. It educates the local population, and that's necessary for a successful city, but it doesn't fill the void I'm talking about. At the present moment, MDC is by and large still serving the community college role. It doesn't attract students from outside the region or keep local students in the city, nor would it likely factor into a company's choice to relocate. Miami-Dade College only offers three bachelor's degrees and they're all in education. Once again, that's noble, but it doesn't address the issue I mentioned.

Another issue is that even if MDC were to transform itself into a full, four-year university, it would be entirely uncharted territory. Miami would have two major public universities. Are there any other cities that have that?

One option would be for Miami to follow the lead of Austin, Columbus or Madison, where a single public university dominates, but FIU isn't the flagship school and while that model may work in smaller cities like the aforementioned ones, it may not be sufficient for a larger city.

While Austin, Columbus and Madison are really the only American cities in this position, it's not uncommon in Latin America. Buenos Aires and Mexico City are both home to a number of universities for sure, but the vast majority of their students attend a single, large public university. UBA is home to nearly 300,000 students and UNAM tops 300,000. I suppose MDC could grow into something similar, but then would you forego having a community college?

There are a lot of interesting options to play with, but I would like to see the city be moving in one or more of these directions. I do like the idea of spinning off the Wolfson campus into an independent school; interesting suggestion.

Plant shade trees until it hurts ,especially in the sparse areas of Miami-Dade. But hey don't leave out the beautiful Royal and Coconut palm trees,those are my favorite.

I like what they've done on the south side of Washington Ave. across from the Miami Beach Convention Center. They've planted shade tree, palm tree, shade tree, palm tree, etc. The palm trees are much taller, so you can see them sticking out. It pleases the tourists who want to see palms and the locals who have seen enough palms and just want to cool off.

While I don't disagree that Miami could use a UCLA-esque school, they don't sprout up overnight. It takes generations to build a school's reputation.

Absolutely.

(and this is a good conversation as well!)

Plant shade trees until it hurts ,especially in the sparse areas of Miami-Dade. But hey don't leave out the beautiful Royal and Coconut palm trees,those are my favorite.

Agreed. How about more Live Oaks? They're not imports, they're attractive, and they provide great shade. For some reason, there seems to be far fewer of them around today then when I was a kid, but let's bring 'em back. :cheers:

Agreed. How about more Live Oaks? They're not imports, they're attractive, and they provide great shade. For some reason, there seems to be far fewer of them around today then when I was a kid, but let's bring 'em back. :cheers:
They don't grow as well in south Florida. There roots don't grow as deep and consequently fall over or dry out in dry months. South Fl is the southern most extent they can grow, except some higher areas in west Cuba.

Agreed. How about more Live Oaks? They're not imports, they're attractive, and they provide great shade. For some reason, there seems to be far fewer of them around today then when I was a kid, but let's bring 'em back. :cheers:

I like live oaks as well. I definitely agree that there are countless areas in the city that could use better shade / landscaping. Places that stand out as having good shade are coral gables, and coconut grove, (the overgrown nature of the grove adds to its character). I'd like to see tree plantings city-wide, this stuff does wonders for an urban environment.

They don't grow as well in south Florida. There roots don't grow as deep and consequently fall over or dry out in dry months. South Fl is the southern most extent they can grow, except some higher areas in west Cuba.

That's one helluva synopsis of Live Oaks, and it all makes sense.

We had one in the backyard in North Miami...along with an uncultivated navel orange tree (the fruit it produced was dry and sour and basically inedible).

Still, I remember places like Greynolds Park being wild with Live Oaks. They looked pretty damn healthy. Old Cutler Road also had a bunch.

All that said, I'm sure you're right. Live Oaks look more at home in Gainesville and Ocala.

Ficus??

If anything we should be getting rid of all these palm trees around Dade.

Ficus??

A ficus would be flat on the ground with winds of 40 mph! Those are always the first to go... I have a couple of black olives, and every hurricane season there is always one thats on the ground. Any tree that has its roots all along the surface is not hurricane friendly.

Interesting points. I stand corrected, Roark, but are you aware of what the plan is? Is there a long-term plan that consists of more than just "foster higher education?" Does it include founding new colleges or encouraging the growth of existing colleges, likely FIU? I haven't seen evidence of either. One can hardly argue that the community has come to the aid of FIU as its funding has been repeatedly slashed. I spent seven years at FIU and they never asked me for a single dollar. Now, I get requests for donations on a weekly basis. Times are hard.

I would still argue that it's not entirely accurate to suggest that Miami-Dade College fills the void. Technically, it may be one of the largest colleges in the country, but let's be real. The school is only so large because the county is large. It educates the local population, and that's necessary for a successful city, but it doesn't fill the void I'm talking about. At the present moment, MDC is by and large still serving the community college role. It doesn't attract students from outside the region or keep local students in the city, nor would it likely factor into a company's choice to relocate. Miami-Dade College only offers three bachelor's degrees and they're all in education. Once again, that's noble, but it doesn't address the issue I mentioned.

Another issue is that even if MDC were to transform itself into a full, four-year university, it would be entirely uncharted territory. Miami would have two major public universities. Are there any other cities that have that?

One option would be for Miami to follow the lead of Austin, Columbus or Madison, where a single public university dominates, but FIU isn't the flagship school and while that model may work in smaller cities like the aforementioned ones, it may not be sufficient for a larger city.

While Austin, Columbus and Madison are really the only American cities in this position, it's not uncommon in Latin America. Buenos Aires and Mexico City are both home to a number of universities for sure, but the vast majority of their students attend a single, large public university. UBA is home to nearly 300,000 students and UNAM tops 300,000. I suppose MDC could grow into something similar, but then would you forego having a community college?

There are a lot of interesting options to play with, but I would like to see the city be moving in one or more of these directions. I do like the idea of spinning off the Wolfson campus into an independent school; interesting suggestion.

Los Angeles actually has more than one public university: California State University-LA, CSU-Northridge, and UCLA.

I don't think it'd be smart to have MDC converted completely into a full-blown public university like FIU. Instead, I'd say take a campus or two and have them go independent so they can form a public university. For example, take the Wolfson Campus, separate off from MDC and become a 4-year public university, or a liberal arts college.

I think it'd be a great idea. You can't get rid of MDC as a community college, because the city needs a place that will accept everyone and give people the opportunity to get an AA, but if you split it up, Miami could definitely use another public university, that could be a tier below FIU. Kind of like California State University-LA would be below UCLA. It's a thought...

I think it'd be a great idea. You can't get rid of MDC as a community college,....For the last 6 years Miami Dade College is no longer a Community College (as posted earlier). Miami Dade Community College added 4 year programs, and dropped one of the "C"'s in their name. MDC continues to work their plan, add more programs, and expand their scope.
The foundation has the support of graduates like Jorge Perez and they continue to serve the area well. The honors program has been turning out some great students.

For the last 6 years Miami Dade College is no longer a Community College (as posted earlier). Miami Dade Community College added 4 year programs, and dropped one of the "C"'s in their name. MDC continues to work their plan, add more programs, and expand their scope.
The foundation has the support of graduates like Jorge Perez and they continue to serve the area well. The honors program has been turning out some great students.

Oh there's no doubt about that, but MDC is essentially still Miami's community college, with a name change or not. 3 or so bachelor's degrees hardly qualifies MDC as a 4-year public university. It's an AA powerhouse, essentially still a community college, and there's nothing wrong with that, we need MDC.

A cathedral. A big classical cathedral in the middle of either SoBe or Downtown (or both). Think St. Patricks Cathedral.

Wut?

We need a good education and moral organization system in Miami, just like in Nazi Germany circa 1930's. (Obviously without the NS ideology)

Wut?

We need a good education and moral organization system in Miami, just like in Nazi Germany circa 1930's. (Obviously without the NS ideology)

We should probably have more mosques too, and invite more Islamic people and culture to the area.

How about more cinema pubs that play classics? One of my favorites I used to see was "Heavy Metal" with John Candy....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJTfX4ULCwU

A cathedral. A big classical cathedral in the middle of either SoBe or Downtown (or both). Think St. Patricks Cathedral.

We have a lot of churches and cathedrals that are actually very stunning. Some of my favorites are the Gesu Catholic Church (1st Av and NE 2nd St), St. Jude Catholic Church (Brickell Av and Broadway), and Trinity Episcopal Cathedral (NE 15th St and Bayshore Dr).

An observation tower looking over the city and water.

We have a lot of churches and cathedrals that are actually very stunning. Some of my favorites are the Gesu Catholic Church (1st Av and NE 2nd St), St. Jude Catholic Church (Brickell Av and Broadway), and Trinity Episcopal Cathedral (NE 15th St and Bayshore Dr).
Yeah, these are really nice. But not cathedral like St. Patricks-cathedralish. :)

Wut?

We need a good education and moral organization system in Miami, just like in Nazi Germany circa 1930's. (Obviously without the NS ideology)

We should probably have more mosques too, and invite more Islamic people and culture to the area.

Nazis and muslims in Miami? No thanks. :puke:

I specified "WITHOUT THE NS IDEOLOGY".

We need better public transportation; not just in size but in efficiency and in cost. Paying four dollars round trip for the metro that arrives half an hour to an hour late isn't fun :D

BTW I'm at MDC now and yeah it's no longer a community college, but it's still treated as one by other public institutions (UF, UCF, FIU, etc.)

We need more affordable housing. And by that I don't mean 'projects'. I mean modest to small size apartment housing for middle class that's close to mass transit stations. Units that have no real amenities that cost a monthly maintenance fee and hidden "all your foreclosed neighbors are not paying, thus you pay more" assessment fees.

STOP building housing for the super rich!!! Cities need middle classes to survive.

miami suburbs have alot of nice small low income homes, ie sweetwater,fountaineblue area along with the area around braddock highschool.

^^Sweetwater is not a nice area. Not that I'm trying to offend anybody, but its just not.

We need more affordable housing. And by that I don't mean 'projects'. I mean modest to small size apartment housing for middle class that's close to mass transit stations. Units that have no real amenities that cost a monthly maintenance fee and hidden "all your foreclosed neighbors are not paying, thus you pay more" assessment fees.

STOP building housing for the super rich!!! Cities need middle classes to survive.

Sounds like you are describing South Miami or even the Dadeland area.

Sounds like you are describing South Miami or even the Dadeland area.or any of the number of apartments that have blossomed around the Health Center or along SE 8th street.

We need more affordable housing. And by that I don't mean 'projects'. I mean modest to small size apartment housing for middle class that's close to mass transit stations. Units that have no real amenities that cost a monthly maintenance fee and hidden "all your foreclosed neighbors are not paying, thus you pay more" assessment fees.

STOP building housing for the super rich!!! Cities need middle classes to survive.

While I think you're going to run into some opposition on this one on this forum because, well, luxury means tall and beautiful, or at least that's the perception anyway, even if it hasn't proved to be the reality, I'm still with you here. Miami is very much behind the national trends with regards to affordable housing obligations. They may not be necessary. Once water views become harder to acquire, the demand for luxury apartments may subside, and we may start to see some more affordable housing built three or four blocks from the waterfront.

At the moment though, Miami's central core is on track to become less like Manhattan and more like Monaco. World-class cities around the globe struggle to keep their city centers affordable and attractive to all citizens. Miami is very far from reaching the point where this is a struggle that needs to be engaged in, but the current objective appears to be for downtown to be exclusively high-end.

While I think you're going to run into some opposition on this one on this forum because, well, luxury means tall and beautiful, or at least that's the perception anyway, even if it hasn't proved to be the reality, I'm still with you here. Miami is very much behind the national trends with regards to affordable housing obligations. They may not be necessary. Once water views become harder to acquire, the demand for luxury apartments may subside, and we may start to see some more affordable housing built three or four blocks from the waterfront.

At the moment though, Miami's central core is on track to become less like Manhattan and more like Monaco. World-class cities around the globe struggle to keep their city centers affordable and attractive to all citizens. Miami is very far from reaching the point where this is a struggle that needs to be engaged in, but the current objective appears to be for downtown to be exclusively high-end.

The RE tumble has totally erased the 'exclusivity' on a lot of that inventory, but agreed in principle.

Plus, the healthiest downtown is one with as many full-time residents as possible. At the highest end of the spectrum we're talking about a sizable number of folks who aren't even around a good portion of the time. They help the tax base (and that's a significant plus) but only being a part-timer doesn't do a whole lot for downtown retail and foot traffic. Affordable options for the middle-class would specifically target the people who would be most likely to be full-timers and thus most invested in the city on a daily basis.

Miami is very much behind the national trends with regards to affordable housing obligations.
Miami business leaders have been working on Workforce Housing (no one calls it affordable housing anymore) aggressively in the last few years and they have been making some great strides.
Do you have some stats on the national trends that you are siting Peter? It would be interesting to see how the City of Miami stacks up with the nation for housing people that make 80-120% of the Area Median Income.

It is still a great shame that the Crosswinds project was so mired in political silliness that it has not got off the ground. The Overtown community needs that more than ever.

...

miami suburbs have alot of nice small low income homes, ie sweetwater,fountaineblue area along with the area around braddock highschool.

And right near a mass tran... oh wait... yeah a mere 5 hour bus ride on 836 to the CBD (no wait I'm sorry that bus goes to homestead first and then you change busses 3 more times if you wanna go to the CBD). Affordable indeed, and once you start your work week, you find out why in a hurry. All it costs you is 4 years of your life sitting in traffic that you could be spending with your family.

While I think you're going to run into some opposition on this one on this forum because, well, luxury means tall and beautiful...

And since when are these mutually exclusive goals? Building affordable housing doesn't mean stopping the building of "beautiful" buildings (whatever that means). I guess in Miami's case it means unimaginative 16 story parking garages with buildings on top of them. I personally find buildings with no or very well hidden parking garage's FAR more beautiful than anything build recently in the CBT (Espirito Santo Plaza anyone). But like I said, you don't need to stop building one without the other. We can build affordable housing and still have our "beautiful" parking garage... er buildings.

Plus, the healthiest downtown is one with as many full-time residents as possible. At the highest end of the spectrum we're talking about a sizable number of folks who aren't even around a good portion of the time. They help the tax base (and that's a significant plus)...

Agreed but they have to actually be paying taxes and not getting foreclosed on. It will be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes. However building affordable housing in areas close to Vizcaya, Coconut Grove, and Douglas Road stations would fill up immediately and help Miami with tax problems now (well as soon as they are completed anyway). Miami seriously needs to look into densifying the US1 corridor arouind those stations. This would help the utilization of the Metrorail overall.

Agreed but they have to actually be paying taxes and not getting foreclosed on. It will be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes. However building affordable housing in areas close to Vizcaya, Coconut Grove, and Douglas Road stations would fill up immediately and help Miami with tax problems now (well as soon as they are completed anyway). Miami seriously needs to look into densifying the US1 corridor arouind those stations. This would help the utilization of the Metrorail overall.

I think we're talking about two different things here. Foreclosures are a very real issue but I was talking about the high-end type of resident (specifically in a downtown condo at a nicer building) who may only physically reside in Miami a few weeks or months yearly but still contributes significantly to the tax base. The point being that while the investment (and tax dollars) those people contribute should absolutely be welcomed, it would still do the city well to encourage development geared towards the middle-class as they are the economic group most likely to be invested in the city on a daily basis and thus provide the biggest boost to downtown retail and sheer day-to-day occupancy (and ownership) of living space. The contributions of the wealthiest are nothing to sneeze at---and they are surely part of the puzzle, but for many their lives are often spent elsewhere for a good chunk of the year. I think the middle-class is much more likely to call it home year-round.

I've got to take some issue with your transit viewpoint, as well. Definitely agreed that MDTA leaves plenty to be desired and that Miami, overall, isn't exactly anybody's idea of efficient public transportation but FIVE HOURS to get from Sweetwater to downtown on a bus?? C'mon, you'd have to be riding a wooden cart pulled by a half-dead mule for it to take that long. I just have a hard time buying that, unless someone just missed EVERY connection possible and maybe got knocked unconscious by lightning for an hour. Five hours?

I think we're talking about two different things here. Foreclosures are a very real issue but I was talking about the high-end type of resident (specifically in a downtown condo at a nicer building) who may only physically reside in Miami a few weeks or months yearly but still contributes significantly to the tax base. The point being that while the investment (and tax dollars) those people contribute should absolutely be welcomed, it would still do the city well to encourage development geared towards the middle-class as they are the economic group most likely to be invested in the city on a daily basis and thus provide the biggest boost to downtown retail and sheer day-to-day occupancy (and ownership) of living space. The contributions of the wealthiest are nothing to sneeze at---and they are surely part of the puzzle, but for many their lives are often spent elsewhere for a good chunk of the year. I think the middle-class is much more likely to call it home year-round.

I've got to take some issue with your transit viewpoint, as well. Definitely agreed that MDTA leaves plenty to be desired and that Miami, overall, isn't exactly anybody's idea of efficient public transportation but FIVE HOURS to get from Sweetwater to downtown on a bus?? C'mon, you'd have to be riding a wooden cart pulled by a half-dead mule for it to take that long. I just have a hard time buying that, unless someone just missed EVERY connection possible and maybe got knocked unconscious by lightning for an hour. Five hours?

Actually, it takes anywhere from 45 minutes to 1.5 hours on a bus from Sweetwater to Downtown. I've done it many times before, on the 8 and the 11. It's not that bad actually, and it's a bit scenic. The buses do get extremely crowded though, however, they run quite often.

If you take the 8 not the 11 (which gets horribly overcrowded around Little Havana and has to make a stop at almost every block) it takes I would say 65-75 minutes. Though thats from just south of FIU to Wolfson campus.

Agreed but they have to actually be paying taxes and not getting foreclosed on. It will be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes.
This is not true. Can you please clarify your point.
No new building exists in the CBD or Brickell on a parcel that paid LESS 5 years ago than it does now.
Furthermore, the number of units that are not paying taxes pales in comparison to the number of units that do.
In conclusion, it WILL NOT "be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes"
The property collections are significant and meaningful.
The infinitesimal number of condominium units foreclosed due to non payment of property taxes will be purchased quickly and paying back taxes are a requisite of title transfer.

Wherever you have heard this unsubstantiated information is unreliable and continuing the rumor does nothing to enhance understanding of the workforce housing issue.

I've got to take some issue with your transit viewpoint, as well. Definitely agreed that MDTA leaves plenty to be desired and that Miami, overall, isn't exactly anybody's idea of efficient public transportation but FIVE HOURS to get from Sweetwater to downtown on a bus?? C'mon, you'd have to be riding a wooden cart pulled by a half-dead mule for it to take that long. I just have a hard time buying that, unless someone just missed EVERY connection possible and maybe got knocked unconscious by lightning for an hour. Five hours?


not 5 hours, maybe 1 or 1hour and 20 mins. i took a bus from 82nd ave, flagler st, to bayside and it took about 45 mins. and this was around 630pm or 7. and not to mention the driver made about 20 stops to pick up old people.

Yeah, that's why I questioned the five hour statement. Transit could still be frustrating---even maddening at times---but that amount of time just seemed ludicrous except in MAYBE a very rare circumstance such as mechanical failures, etc.

Sigh... I'm surprised I received so many responses to my 5 hours comment. Apparently no one on this board has ever exaggerated to prove a point. Yes I know it's not literally 5 hours, but for me anything more than 30 min's to commute is too long (and might as well be "5 hours"). Sorry if no one caught the sarcasm. Perhaps next time I should use a longer timespan like 7 or 10 hours to remove doubt about the sarcasm.

Perhaps next time I should use a longer timespan like 7 or 10 hours to remove doubt about the sarcasm.Nope...that won't work. Take it from me, sarcasm and dry wit doesn't translate with the majority of this crew.
Use the KISS principle when you want to make a point.

This is not true. Can you please clarify your point.
No new building exists in the CBD or Brickell on a parcel that paid LESS 5 years ago than it does now.
Furthermore, the number of units that are not paying taxes pales in comparison to the number of units that do.
In conclusion, it WILL NOT "be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes"
The property collections are significant and meaningful.
The infinitesimal number of condominium units foreclosed due to non payment of property taxes will be purchased quickly and paying back taxes are a requisite of title transfer.

Wherever you have heard this unsubstantiated information is unreliable and continuing the rumor does nothing to enhance understanding of the workforce housing issue.

Perhaps I have been getting lied to then. We'll call this unsubstantiated source... the Miami Herald, why don't we.

So you mean to tell me that all these stories of greatly overextended Miamians on a 30k/yr salary with 6 and 7 units, All bought with a 0 interest ARM mortgage and dollar sign's in their eyes, were NOT the majority of buyers of these condos causing the runup? And that there aren't Peter Zalewski's (http://www.condovultures.com/) out there snapping up units everywhere for half price (at least he can pay the taxes)?

Personally I would love to be wrong about this. However hearing that I am wrong on a forum doesn't necessarily make it so. It's kinda hard to believe that the Herald, SF Biz Journal and everyone else is so off about this and that a few select members of a forum on the internet have better information. Maybe this is all just a mass conspiracy to get me to believe that there's a glut of vacant condo's out there when in fact everything is owned by rich Europeans who are only here 2 weeks out of the year, and THAT's why the lights have all been off in most of these buildings? Nice theory but, somehow I don't buy it.

^^ I knew you exaggerated, I was trying to reinforce your point. My bus ride from about FIU to Wolfson campus in downtown was about 70ish minutes on average. An insane amount of time and no this is not exaggerated. I would often time my self and 70 minutes was pretty common for me especially on bus 11.

Since the budget cuts many of the buses that go out to FIU (not counting route 11) now take like 1 hour between bus for a larger part of the day even weekdays now!!!

However, IMO the only way this can be solved is by a direct line to downtown that won't get stuck in traffic. And the only way to do that would be by metro rail. Even ground rail won't work since its far too dense with too much traffic for the train to move too fast. Not even thinking about the amount of land that would have be cleared for the ground rail.

And although we were promised this train from FIU to downtown it seems to be close to dead as of now. Really wish the same amount of effort our politicians put for the baseball stadium would have been the same for the MetroRail but what can you do.

And although we were promised this train from FIU to downtown it seems to be close to dead as of now. Really wish the same amount of effort our politicians put for the baseball stadium would have been the same for the MetroRail but what can you do.

Well their not getting paid under the table to build a metrorail. Besides what good is a project unless a rich guy can pocket the ticket prices instead of using them to pay for the stadium like he should. Oops Freudian slip, my cynical side is showing again... been living here too long.

And that is why you are correct CalleOchoGringo. This makes me irate.

Perhaps I have been getting lied to then. We'll call this unsubstantiated source... the Miami Herald, why don't we.

So you mean to tell me that all these stories of greatly overextended Miamians on a 30k/yr salary with 6 and 7 units, All bought with a 0 interest ARM mortgage and dollar sign's in their eyes, were NOT the majority of buyers of these condos causing the runup? And that there aren't Peter Zalewski's (http://www.condovultures.com/) out there snapping up units everywhere for half price (at least he can pay the taxes)?

Personally I would love to be wrong about this. However hearing that I am wrong on a forum doesn't necessarily make it so. It's kinda hard to believe that the Herald, SF Biz Journal and everyone else is so off about this and that a few select members of a forum on the internet have better information. Maybe this is all just a mass conspiracy to get me to believe that there's a glut of vacant condo's out there when in fact everything is owned by rich Europeans who are only here 2 weeks out of the year, and THAT's why the lights have all been off in most of these buildings? Nice theory but, somehow I don't buy it.

Well said and 90% agreed. The RE meltdown is VERY real and it's impact on Miami remains huge, as it is in every other city that boomed during that timeframe. The recession started earlier in those places and plenty of economist think they'll be the last ones to exit it, too. There's little reason to candycoat any of it---it's not exactly a secret.

That said, I wouldn't just disregard the current situation as not having positives. Those part-timers may not be 24/7/365 residents (and never will be) but they provide a significant tax boost overall. Plus, the pricing meltdown may not have been what the developers envisioned (and, yes, I know an element of greed and suspension of reality created unrealistic expectations) but still...even a condo unit once hoped to be part of a bidding war that now has renters moving in at severely discounted prices is better than an EMPTY unit, no?

A free market works best when price and demand have equilibrium. The boom simply put way more on the market than there was ever real demand for. Things are now settling into a price structure that reflects reality. Stability should be next---even with a few more bumps in the road. I honestly think the worst is over.

Downtown will be fine. This stuff is just inevitable economic reality checks and balances in a capitalist system, even in a recessionary spiral that by some indicators hasn't been seen in 70 years

And sorry if myself and a few others ran off with the '5 hours' comment. It should have been read as sarcasm. Point taken that you want better transit---as well you should. :cheers:

^^ I knew you exaggerated, I was trying to reinforce your point. My bus ride from about FIU to Wolfson campus in downtown was about 70ish minutes on average. An insane amount of time and no this is not exaggerated. I would often time my self and 70 minutes was pretty common for me especially on bus 11.

Since the budget cuts many of the buses that go out to FIU (not counting route 11) now take like 1 hour between bus for a larger part of the day even weekdays now!!!

However, IMO the only way this can be solved is by a direct line to downtown that won't get stuck in traffic. And the only way to do that would be by metro rail. Even ground rail won't work since its far too dense with too much traffic for the train to move too fast. Not even thinking about the amount of land that would have be cleared for the ground rail.

And although we were promised this train from FIU to downtown it seems to be close to dead as of now. Really wish the same amount of effort our politicians put for the baseball stadium would have been the same for the MetroRail but what can you do.

i know bus 11 and 7a( i think its 7a, the one that goes to all 3 malls) are really good routes but to many traffic lights and traffic.

Sigh... I'm surprised I received so many responses to my 5 hours comment. Apparently no one on this board has ever exaggerated to prove a point. Yes I know it's not literally 5 hours, but for me anything more than 30 min's to commute is too long (and might as well be "5 hours"). Sorry if no one caught the sarcasm. Perhaps next time I should use a longer timespan like 7 or 10 hours to remove doubt about the sarcasm.

i knew it was sarcasm, i was just answering a question, which i used your post to answer, since thats where the question was being asked from.

The city of Miami needs a nice AQUARIUM. The Miami Seaquarium is ok, but it could be better! Like the one Atlanta has!

...

No idea which economists you are getting your info from.

The chief economist at Moody's, for one.

(I assume you just made it up).

Incorrect.

but as much as you wish that this was true all indications are that this will not be the case.).

Why on Earth would I want anyplace to stay in recession longer?? I look forward to the entire country emerging from this mess. What a weird statement.

Anyway, this from 'Builder Magazine' just a couple of weeks ago. You're free to reject it, of course, but it's certainly not 'made up.'

Zandi: Recession Will End This Year

Moody’s economist also says housing will not be ‘an early source of growth’ in this recovery.

By:Alison RiceRelated ArticlesSave / Share


First, the good news. Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody’s Economy.com, believes the Great Recession will end this year.

If that’s true, that will surely be welcomed by just about everyone. During this difficult economic period, more than 8 million jobs have been lost. Housing starts have dropped to an annualized level of 500,000 units, down from more than 2 million in 2005. Banks large and small have failed.

“This recession has been the longest, most severe and the broadest-based than any recession since the Great Depression, hence the moniker ‘The Great Recession,’” said Zandi in a teleconference yesterday on “The State of the Coming Recovery.” But such economic turmoil should end sometime in 2009, he said, thanks to adjustments in consumer spending, the stabilization of the U.S. banking system, and the expected benefits of the federal stimulus package.

In contrast to 2006, for example, when Americans actually had a negative savings rate, “all income groups are now saving something,” Zandi said. Second, banks and investors are loosening their grips on some capital, although not where builders are concerned. (There’s also little market for residential mortgage securities, acknowledged Zandi. “Credit flows remain very poor,” he said.) Finally, the positive effects of the stimulus should soon be felt by communities as the government releases millions upon millions of dollars for weatherization, transportation, and more.


Now the bad news for builders. “Housing will not be an early source of growth in this recovery,” said Zandi. “That’s very different from past recoveries,” when housing has typically been a leading indicator of economic growth.

But as the economy regains its footing this year and next, Zandi said growth will happen—and quickly. In 2010’s fourth quarter, for example, he forecasts housing starts to return to an annualized pace of 1 million units, and a 1.6-million-unit annualized level in 2011’s fourth quarter. “Once we work through the impediments to demand, I do think we’ll see substantial pickup in economic activity in 2011 and 2012,” he said.

Still, housing represents a major risk to Zandi’s view that the recession—generally defined as two consecutive quarters of decline in real gross domestic product (GDP)—is nearly finished. If home prices continue to fall and foreclosures continue to rise, the recession will linger. “This is the one I am most worried about,” said Zandi, who is concerned that the Obama foreclosure mitigation efforts will not be successful—or successful enough. “I am increasingly worried that these impediments [to refinancing and modifying mortgages] cannot be overcome.” (The economist did not address these obstacles or what the solutions might be during the teleconference.)

That would seem to bode ill for places such as California, where housing’s boom has turned into a foreclosure bust. But Zandi, who developed a reputation as a housing bear earlier this decade, sounded more upbeat than one might expect about the Golden State, where the state has begun issuing IOUs. “California will probably turn with the rest of the United States,” he said. “The housing problems there were much less severe than in Florida, and Californians have been conditioned to believe that if they buy housing at low prices, they will be rewarded over a 10-year period. … They are more willing and able to get into the housing market.”

Zandi also had positive words for Texas, which has been a major market for builders large and small. “Texas will recover more quickly,” he said. “It doesn’t have the serious housing overhang that California and Florida have, and energy will be a source of growth for the state.”

Floridians, on contrast, should brace themselves for a long, slow walk back to economic health. “Florida will be one of the last states to get out of the recession,” Zandi predicted. It has a serious oversupply of housing, both single-family and condos, particularly in South Florida. “Migration flows have dried up. It’s very reliant on travel and tourism, which will remain impaired [economically].”

Alison Rice is senior editor, online, at BUILDER magazine.

So you mean to tell me that all these stories of greatly overextended Miamians on a 30k/yr salary with 6 and 7 units, All bought with a 0 interest ARM mortgage and dollar sign's in their eyes, were NOT the majority of buyers of these condos causing the runup? And that there aren't Peter Zalewski's (http://www.condovultures.com/) out there snapping up units everywhere for half price (at least he can pay the taxes)?

Personally I would love to be wrong about this. However hearing that I am wrong on a forum doesn't necessarily make it so. It's kinda hard to believe that the Herald, SF Biz Journal and everyone else is so off about this and that a few select members of a forum on the Internet have better information. Maybe this is all just a mass conspiracy to get me to believe that there's a glut of vacant condo's out there when in fact everything is owned by rich Europeans who are only here 2 weeks out of the year, and THAT's why the lights have all been off in most of these buildings? Nice theory but, somehow I don't buy it.
Wow...Calle...that is a lot of words. But you NEVER clarified your point.
You've run off on a tangent that doesn't clarify the property tax assertion that you made. And that is only response to your post from me.
Are people to believe that their is catastrophic property tax collection problem for 5 to 8 years or are you just rambling without really understanding the situation?
It would be difficult to agree or disagree with what you are saying because you aren't stating a point clearly.
What is you point when you post....
Quote:Originally Posted by CalleOchoGringo
Agreed but they have to actually be paying taxes and not getting foreclosed on. It will be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes.
You were responding to a post speaking specifically of condos in "downtown".
Please, please, pretty please with sugar on top, clarify your point and stay focused.

IF you are suggesting that there are unit owners not paying their property taxes in the Central Business District, then tell me which new buildings or building has the problem, and how bad is it?
Simple. Clarify your point, and back it up with evidence.

"5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes" is your exact quote.

What the hell does that mean?

The vast majority of property taxes ARE being paid. The small percentage of delinquent tax payers must pay or else have tax liens levied. The government will receive their revenue up front. Furthermore, title will not exchange hands unless back taxes are paid. 5 to 8 years?

It is great that you get your ideas from the Miami Herald, SF Biz Journal, and Pete Z. So feel free to source their support of this 5 to 8 years before their is property tax collection, and post the exact quotes. It is pure BS, and you can't support that assertion.

If you had to use your own brain, what do you think the percentage of units in the CBD are with delinquent property taxes?
Let's keep it simple and objective. Pick a building...we can look it up. It will be educational.
Do you think 100% of the owners are delinquent on their taxes?
Is it 90% that aren't paying?
Is it 80%?
70% perhaps?
Or is it more like 5%?

If they don't pay in 2 years, what happens? If you don't know, Google the phrase "Tax Lien Certificates".

Bottom line: My point is that the overwhelming majority of property tax payers in the CBD/Brickell pay their property taxes.
Your assertion that: "It will be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes" is incorrect, uninformed, and can not be supported.

Nothing personal. Just stick to what you know. You are out of your element Donnie.

Wow...Calle...that is a lot of words. But you NEVER clarified your point.
You've run off on a tangent that doesn't clarify the property tax assertion that you made. And that is only response to your post from me.
Are people to believe that their is catastrophic property tax collection problem for 5 to 8 years or are you just rambling without really understanding the situation?
It would be difficult to agree or disagree with what you are saying because you aren't stating a point clearly.
What is you point when you post....

You were responding to a post speaking specifically of condos in "downtown".
Please, please, pretty please with sugar on top, clarify your point and stay focused.

IF you are suggesting that there are unit owners not paying their property taxes in the Central Business District, then tell me which new buildings or building has the problem, and how bad is it?
Simple. Clarify your point, and back it up with evidence.

"5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes" is your exact quote.

What the hell does that mean?

The vast majority of property taxes ARE being paid. The small percentage of delinquent tax payers must pay or else have tax liens levied. The government will receive their revenue up front. Furthermore, title will not exchange hands unless back taxes are paid. 5 to 8 years?

It is great that you get your ideas from the Miami Herald, SF Biz Journal, and Pete Z. So feel free to source their support of this 5 to 8 years before their is property tax collection, and post the exact quotes. It is pure BS, and you can't support that assertion.

If you had to use your own brain, what do you think the percentage of units in the CBD are with delinquent property taxes?
Let's keep it simple and objective. Pick a building...we can look it up. It will be educational.
Do you think 100% of the owners are delinquent on their taxes?
Is it 90% that aren't paying?
Is it 80%?
70% perhaps?
Or is it more like 5%?

If they don't pay in 2 years, what happens? If you don't know, Google the phrase "Tax Lien Certificates".

Bottom line: My point is that the overwhelming majority of property tax payers in the CBD/Brickell pay their property taxes.
Your assertion that: "It will be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes" is incorrect, uninformed, and can not be supported.

Nothing personal. Just stick to what you know. You are out of your element Donnie.

As I stated in my previous posts. My sources are newspaper articles mostly. I don't have hard stats at the ready as I'm sure most people on this forum don't either when making a post. However you are putting words into my mouth suggesting that I claimed to know exact numbers when I never suggested I did. Also you suggested that I said "catastrophic property tax collection problem". I think you grossly misunderstood me there. I never said this was as bad a problem as you obviously thought I meant it too be. I simply said it will be something the county will struggle with for a while if current trends in articles are a hint at the truth. Many of these owners never paid taxes on units that they never intended to continue paying the mortgage on. Yes they knew a lien would be placed on the unit but didn't care because the bank or (more likely) the next buyer would have to pay it.

The school system is going through very hard financial times right now. Do you know why? Because they get the vast majority of their money from local property taxes. Now how much of that is directly because of condo woes is anyone's guess. But it's a fact that now more than ever people of Dade county are having a harder time than in the past paying for their taxes. And I believe that the vast majority of tax deficiencies are a result of mortgage defaults. Well many of those are condos that were bought and "walked away from".

Tell you what... since you did such a good job trying to sneak the burden of proof onto me. Educate me... what is the current rate of tax default's in a building? Lets pick Jade in Brickell for example. Like I said I would love to be wrong. Show me why all these stories I've read in the Herald are completely unfounded.

The city of Miami needs a nice AQUARIUM. The Miami Seaquarium is ok, but it could be better! Like the one Atlanta has!

Aren't they going to be building one in Museum park beside the new Science Museum?

Aren't they going to be building one in Museum park beside the new Science Museum?

I think within the Science museum:

All picture credit goes to http://www.urbancityarch.com/. If you have not already done so, I recommend that you visit their site which offers constant coverage on Miami21, transit, and event issues.

http://www.urbancityarch.com/wp-content/gallery/miami-science-museum/bottom-tank.jpg
http://www.urbancityarch.com/wp-content/gallery/miami-science-museum/exterior.jpg
http://www.urbancityarch.com/wp-content/gallery/miami-science-museum/interior-structure-tank.jpg
http://www.urbancityarch.com/wp-content/gallery/miami-science-museum/interior-tanks.jpg
http://www.urbancityarch.com/wp-content/gallery/miami-science-museum/interior-top.jpg
http://www.urbancityarch.com/wp-content/gallery/miami-science-museum/science-museum-model-1.jpg
http://www.urbancityarch.com/wp-content/gallery/miami-science-museum/science-museum-model-2.jpg

I want to know why the kid in the blue sweater never puts his arms down. :lol:

(why I notice stuff like that I'll never know)

Thanks for the illustrations, DWNTWN. Big fan of the design!

However you are putting words into my mouth suggesting that I claimed to know exact numbers when I never suggested I did. Also you suggested that I said "catastrophic property tax collection problem". I think you grossly misunderstood me there.
I am not being fasicious...I really want to know what your point is. Please read your words and explain what you mean. That simple.
Quote:Originally Posted by CalleOchoGringo
Agreed but they have to actually be paying taxes and not getting foreclosed on. It will be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes.
A simple answer, so that people don't have to guess at what you are trying to say.

Tell you what... since you did such a good job trying to sneak the burden of proof onto me. Educate me... what is the current rate of tax default's in a building? Lets pick Jade in Brickell for example. Like I said I would love to be wrong. Show me why all these stories I've read in the Herald are completely unfounded.
The burden is on you to clarify what you are saying.
It is still guess work to understand what you mean, but a quick study on Jade Residences at Brickell Bay will follow since you picked a building.
It will educational for all of us.

Okay, you chose the Jade Residences at Brickell Bay to make a point that Downtown Buildings. That seems like a great choice, the Miami Herald and other news outlets rightfully report the amount of foreclosures and price drops in that building. Many people would assume that there must be a commensurate property tax collection problem. Not really.
"It will be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes."

A quick study from the Tax Rolls show that there are:
341 tax records for that address
317 have paid their amount due in full and on time.
24 owners are LATE paying their 2008 taxes in full. 20 have made partial payments, and 4 have made no payments at all.

93% have paid their taxes in full and on time, 7% are late.

$7.9 Million has been collected and $1.1 Million is delinquent (some of these back taxes are presumably from 2007 and/or 2006).

Two points:
1. This building is so-called ground zero for mortgage fraud, yet only only 7% of the units are delinquent with taxes for this year.
2. Even if they are delinquent, that amount will be paid either when a tax lien certificate is issued, or when the title is transferred and the new buyer (or foreclosing entity) takes title.

IF what you meant by "It will be 5 to 8 years before Miami can fully (or even meaningfully partially) collect those taxes." is that the delinquency amounts can't be recovered for years, that is simply not true. The Miami Herald didn't write that, nor would anyone that knows what they are talking about write that.

The tax collector is collecting over 88% of the taxes in full and on time. You may say $8 million in one building (supposedly the worst building) is not meaningful, I beg to differ.

Hopefully the empirical data disproves the idea that there is a problem collecting taxes due.

The real issue for the tax assessor and local governments is that tax assessed values are declining signifcantly, and therefore, the amount of tax receipts received is going to be significantly less than in the prior 3 years. Like individual citizens, the gov't should have thought of that and put some money away for the day when the property tax income wasn't increasing at such rapid rates.

I want to know why the kid in the blue sweater never puts his arms down. :lol:

(why I notice stuff like that I'll never know)

Thanks for the illustrations, DWNTWN. Big fan of the design!

spell.....u are amazing....rotflmao

spell.....u are amazing....rotflmao

It's such a stupid habit, I know, but I can't help it.

I remember a couple of years ago someone posted a schematic of a proposed condo project (in Aventura, maybe?) that showed 'people' apparently walking zombie-like into a lake---along with others apparently having animated conversations with walls or seemingly floating a few inches off the ground. Frankly, I say "Bravo" to such absurdity and fully support these activities.

It's a damn curse, I tell you!:lol:

It's such a stupid habit, I know, but I can't help it.

I remember a couple of years ago someone posted a schematic of a proposed condo project (in Aventura, maybe?) that showed 'people' apparently walking zombie-like into a lake---along with others apparently having animated conversations with walls or seemingly floating a few inches off the ground. Frankly, I say "Bravo" to such absurdity and fully support these activities.

It's a damn curse, I tell you!:lol:

I liked this one where the blue sweater kid and his dad stare awe-struck at something in the sky. Its a science museum so maybe a falling meteor exibit?

http://www.urbancityarch.com/wp-content/gallery/miami-science-museum/interior-top.jpg

The real issue for the tax assessor and local governments is that tax assessed values are declining signifcantly, and therefore, the amount of tax receipts received is going to be significantly less than in the prior 3 years. Like individual citizens, the gov't should have thought of that and put some money away for the day when the property tax income wasn't increasing at such rapid rates.

Ahh, perhaps that then is the root of where all these stories I have been hearing are coming from, and maybe I just misread them. However something has clearly been putting the hurt on the county in the pocket book lately. It's noticeable in the school system and there will be quite some time (years I believe) before the county can get back to what they would consider a normal tax revenue stream.

By the way, where did you get those tax stats? When I go to the MDC property search web page I have to look though folio's one by one. I'm pretty sure you didn't do that so where can I get cumulative stats for entire buildings?

By the way, where did you get those tax stats? When I go to the MDC property search web page I have to look though folio's one by one. I'm pretty sure you didn't do that so where can I get cumulative stats for entire buildings?
For that quicky, I used MLX software ($600 per year and part of paying dues to the Realtor Association, you do not need a real estate license to be a Realtor), and exported the data into an Excel spreadsheet.

Ahh, perhaps that then is the root of where all these stories I have been hearing are coming from, and maybe I just misread them. However something has clearly been putting the hurt on the county in the pocket book lately. It's noticeable in the school system and there will be quite some time (years I believe) before the county can get back to what they would consider a normal tax revenue stream.

By the way, where did you get those tax stats? When I go to the MDC property search web page I have to look though folio's one by one. I'm pretty sure you didn't do that so where can I get cumulative stats for entire buildings?

The main thing putting a hurt on the County (and every city in the area) pocketbook is the drop in values of homes. For example ~1% of $500,000 is a lot more than ~1% of $250,000 ($5K in taxes vs $2.5K in taxes). In total, the existing taxable property value in Miami-Dade dropped by over $30 billion. If it wasn't for over $8 billion in new construction that came on line, the City and County would have been even worse off. The rates were lowered when property values went up but its not so politically easy to raise the rates again once the values go down.

Millage rates over the years:
2003: Miami - 26.918 County - 22.184
2004: Miami - 26.239 County - 21.681
2005: Miami - 25.473 County - 21.316
2006: Miami - 24.644 County - 20.747
2007: Miami - 22.155 County - 18.568
2008: Miami - 22.636 County - 18.617

I liked this one where the blue sweater kid and his dad stare awe-struck at something in the sky. Its a science museum so maybe a falling meteor exibit?

http://www.urbancityarch.com/wp-content/gallery/miami-science-museum/interior-top.jpg

Good eye, dave. It's a bit like a scene in an old Japanese monster flick when they point to the sky and yell "Gamera!" as the heroic, rocket-propelled turtle flies in for battle. Obviously, this could be the possibility here.

Also note the people standing in the water---fully-clothed. This is a cherished computer illustration tradition. If it is an open viewing area of an exhibit, however, they are about to be eaten by sharks.

And poor 'sad boy' with the backpack. He's in another scene looking similarly forlorn. Somebody buy that kid a coke! And where the hell are his parents, anyway?

I could go on...:lol:

That sums it up nicely Dave.

As it relates to the CBD/Brickell, the overall tax collections are likely more in 2008 than they were in 2003.
In a previous conversation we talked about the taxable value of Park West. Without a question things have changed there dramatically, the taxable value of a empty one acre lot is much less than an empty lot with 200 or 500 condominiums on top of it. Now consider that Marquis, TMP, 900, Marina Blue, etc are all mega income producers for the tax collector.

Other areas have been slaughtered by the loss of total tax revenues, the CBD/Brickell has been hurt by falling values, but as Dave mentioned, the increased number of units has balanced that effect.

That sums it up nicely Dave.

As it relates to the CBD/Brickell, the overall tax collections are likely more in 2008 than they were in 2003.
In a previous conversation we talked about the taxable value of Park West. Without a question things have changed there dramatically, the taxable value of a empty one acre lot is much less than an empty lot with 200 or 500 condominiums on top of it. Now consider that Marquis, TMP, 900, Marina Blue, etc are all mega income producers for the tax collector.

Other areas have been slaughtered by the loss of total tax revenues, the CBD/Brickell has been hurt by falling values, but as Dave mentioned, the increased number of units has balanced that effect.

Yes the area covered by the DDA has actually seen its taxable value increase over last year from all the new construction.

...

Should have known, you can find an economist who says just about anything.


I'm quite sure that's true and wouldn't belabor the point. The whole world is never going to dovetail will our own take on things, no matter how much we think we know.

That said, you wrote that I "made something up" and that clearly wasn't the case at all. And Moody's is hardly something flighty. They have represented sober, respected, unbiased economic analysis for decades as someone of your intelligence presumably knows.

Honestly, friend, if I had accused you of 'making something up' and you had posted backing material I would have gladly said 'mea culpa' and moved on. Hopefully we can have much better conversations in the future (as I thought we had off this board). I think your contributions here are some of the best stuff on this forum, regardless. We all get it wrong sometimes. :cheers:

...And poor 'sad boy' with the backpack. He's in another scene looking similarly forlorn. Somebody buy that kid a coke! And where the hell are his parents, anyway? ...

Someone buy him a coke... :lol:

I like the renderings alot. But isn't there a great chance that it will be freaking hot in there?
Sure, modern technology and all, but total glas in Miami?

The greatest city in the world to me. I have lived in this great communtiy for 45 years. Im in love with my city.Which is MIAMI .

1.) Metro-Rail Exspansion
A. North Line along 27thNW to Broward County Line.(It will help bring fans to Dolphin Stadium)
B. South From Airport to Marlins Stadium down 7thNW then south on 17th then East on 8th to Government Center C. Baylink Disney style metro-rail from Government Center Station down McArthur and South on Washington Ave to the Convention Center/Holocaust Memorial.
D. West Line from airport to FIU/Fairgrounds
E. North along either biscayne blvd or CSX railway to Aventura
F. Possibly connect the original metro-rail from the palmetto station to the West line going to FIU/Fairgrounds via Doral and Dolphin Mall.
G. Then we go from there where ever it is needed.

2.) Miami Tunnel Project
A. Knock down the old bridge possibly cover the rail road tracks or put it going beneath the roads.
B.) Connect Bicentenial Park and Bayside Park

3.) Museum Park
A. After connecting the two parks this project must be done it will vastly improve the look of that side of downtown.
B. Knock down Bayside shops or put SoFlo History museum in there and Childrens Museum.
C. Even throw Freedom Tower in the mix with the park and make it a museum aswell?

4.)World Center or Miami 21
A. Something has to be done if they want to make downtown attractive again.

5.)No streetcars in Downtown!
A. It takes up to many street lanes where their is too much traffic as it is.
C.) Metromove is the only thing metro-Fail has going for it right now why fix it if it's not broken? Just extent it where necessary.
B.) The only place you put street cars should be Coral Gables, Coconut Grove, Midtown/Arts District, Doral and connect them to the closest Metr-Rail station. Some of those places already have successful trolley systems.

I'm sure by the time those are done they wil be more problems. What do you guys think?

- More parks
- A crackdown on aggressive/reckless drivers
- No new Marlins stadium
- A couple of (commercial) supertalls
- Metrorail expansion
- More diversity
- Affordable housing
- Better politicians
- A revitalized downtown area

Miami needs more thoughtful and engaged citizens.

It is one thing to talk about a metro rail extension to the Dolphins Stadium, another to think about the cost of track per mile, think about the cost of acquiring land and easements, think about the number of events per year at Dolphin Stadium, think about the cost to operate the route annually, and especially on non-event days.

Wish list things require money. Ideas like Metro rail extensions no the un-dense reaches of the Everglades cannot pay for themselves.

Knock down Bayside Shops? Why, it is one of the most visited shopping attractions in the NATION, provides hundreds and hundreds of jobs, and GIVES revenue to the tax base as opposed to many of the other wish list ideas that TAKE money from the citizens coffers.

Miami needs more thoughtful and engaged citizens.

Get involved people.

Miami needs more thoughtful and engaged citizens.

It is one thing to talk about a metro rail extension to the Dolphins Stadium, another to think about the cost of track per mile, think about the cost of acquiring land and easements, think about the number of events per year at Dolphin Stadium, think about the cost to operate the route annually, and especially on non-event days.

Wish list things require money. Ideas like Metro rail extensions no the un-dense reaches of the Everglades cannot pay for themselves.

Knock down Bayside Shops? Why, it is one of the most visited shopping attractions in the NATION, provides hundreds and hundreds of jobs, and GIVES revenue to the tax base as opposed to many of the other wish list ideas that TAKE money from the citizens coffers.

Miami needs more thoughtful and engaged citizens.

Get involved people.

As the OP of this thread, I was right with this kid...till he suggested knocking down Bayside. I almost fell out of my chair. I love Bayside. I was there the day of the Grand Opening...April 8, 1986. I met Franco Harris who had opened up a Frozen Treats shop there. He personally served me and my family our ice cream.

I remember when it was Miamarina...and it was a sleepy little spot downtown. As I kid, the only reason for my parents to take us downtown was an event in the Bayfront Park Bandshell---or the OB Parade.

No matter how chessy Bayside may be to some...it is a necessary component to a waterfront city like Miami. I actually think they did a good job and I find that it blends with downtown very nicely...!

As the OP of this thread, I was right with this kid...till he suggested knocking down Bayside.
Amazingly, knocking down Bayside has been suggested on the forum before.
It is an insane thought.
I was there on Thursday MORNING 9:30am for a boat tour on the River. Some Charter and tour boats were heading out and there were people eating breakfast and it seemed like some shops were already open. When we returned at 11:30am Bayside was bustling.
Embarcadero, there are probably kids there this weekend that will have Bayside memories for a lifetime. There are first generation Americans running shops in Bayside that will send their kids to Miami Colleges.
Millions and millions of people visit Bayside every year, it is one of the most successful shopping malls in the United States.

Maybe Goofykid doesn't live or work in the CBD.

Maybe I must of went on a bad day? I went it was empty. So I figure knock it down and the port bridge since they're building the tunnel and connect the two parks. Then knock down what I thought was a ghost town and put more museums.

Does anyone know what their gonna do with the bridge when they build the tunnel?

Another thing I noticed that I think Miam needs is why is the Miami Contemperary Art Museum in the middle of the ghetto? I did'nt even know it existed till I visited my friends new apartment in Nort Miami. They had a sign showing the visitor numbers and it went up like two everyday.

They should atleast put it somewhere like Midtown where it will get more usage.

Maybe I must of went on a bad day? I went it was empty. So I figure knock it down...You may want to read up on Bayside Marketplace to know what you are posting about.
It's a strange way decide what to knock down and not knock down. "It was empty the day I went, so knock down the school..."
Learn a bit, you will see that millions and millions visit Bayside per year, according to the GGP offering memorandum, 53% of all overnight visitors to Miami visit Bayside. Bayside employs hundreds if not thousands.
Bayside pays about $1,450,000 in annual rent payments TO the City of Miami.
End of that story (we hope).
[knock it down]... and the port bridge since they're building the tunnel and connect the two parks. Then knock down what I thought was a ghost town and put more museums.
#1 Just because there will be a tunnel, it would be foolish to knock down a perfectly good bridge. It should stay for contingency and additional access.
#2 Connect which two parks? Museum Park and Bayfront? They are connected. Take a walk along the water sometime. There is an interruption at Parcel B where they are repairing the seawall and the baywalk, but other than that, it is pleasant walk from Miami Avenue Bridge all the way to the future Museum Park.

Way to take it to the heart everything I say. Just because I say it doesnt mean it's gonna happen.

Hopefully I'm wrong about Bayside I have also herd from many people who live in Miami that they don't go there cause it's tacky looking or cause theirs a bunch of newer better places. Like I said hopefully I'm wrong about that.

I'm sure it's a lovely walk under a bridge and anybody knows theirs two bridges already going to the port. I'm sure their many more ways of making the walk from the two parks a little more presentable then what it already is.

Another thing I noticed that I think Miam needs is why is the Miami Contemperary Art Museum in the middle of the ghetto? I did'nt even know it existed till I visited my friends new apartment in Nort Miami. They had a sign showing the visitor numbers and it went up like two everyday.

They should atleast put it somewhere like Midtown where it will get more usage.

Agreed. Hopefully it will bring some more visitors to the Midtown area. The last couples of times that I've gone (Sunday being the most recent) the whole shopping center was deserted. There were very few people walking the area. For a Sunday, I don't consider that very good, comparing it to the malls out west here.

Maybe I must of went on a bad day? I went it was empty. So I figure knock it down and the port bridge since they're building the tunnel and connect the two parks. Then knock down what I thought was a ghost town and put more museums.

Does anyone know what their gonna do with the bridge when they build the tunnel?

Another thing I noticed that I think Miam needs is why is the Miami Contemperary Art Museum in the middle of the ghetto? I did'nt even know it existed till I visited my friends new apartment in Nort Miami. They had a sign showing the visitor numbers and it went up like two everyday.

They should atleast put it somewhere like Midtown where it will get more usage.

They're actually doing quite the opposite- they're expanding the MoCA. It's part of North Miami's idea of the area being an arts district.

They're actually doing quite the opposite- they're expanding the MoCA. It's part of North Miami's idea of the area being an arts district.

So do you think thats going to work? Most people including I think that North Miami and NMB are going to be the next Liberty City or Opa-Locka. They could of atleast put it in Aventura or Biscayne Blvd up in North Miami most people don't even know it exist! Waste of money

So do you think thats going to work? Most people including I think that North Miami and NMB are going to be the next Liberty City or Opa-Locka. They could of atleast put it in Aventura or Biscayne Blvd up in North Miami most people don't even know it exist! Waste of money

The museum is partially run and founded by the City of North Miami, so why wouldn't it be in North Miami? I understand what you're saying, and I agree it'd be much more useful in Downtown, but it's not going to go anywhere. If the City of Coral Gables opened up a museum, why would they put it in Miami Lakes? They'd put it in their own city. Now, if it were a county-run museum, this would be a different story.

Hopefully I'm wrong about Bayside I have also herd from many people who live in Miami that they don't go there cause it's tacky looking or cause theirs a bunch of newer better places. Like I said hopefully I'm wrong about that.You are definitely wrong about tearing down Bayside to put in more museums.
As for the many people that you talk to that don't go there...you are probably right.

As for making the baywalk more presentable, that project is underway.

There are many great organizations that you can join that will provide better understanding about the plans for the Central Business District and Park West Districts. Being more informed includes knowing how City, County, State, and Federal entities work (or don't work) together.
Leadership Miami is highly recommended. Graduates get first hand access to the people that are making things happen, and leave the program informed and engaged.

Who funds a museum in a neighborhood like that it waste taxpayers money. If anything North Miami should spend their money on police or maybe some sort of recreational building for kids to go and play sports.




You are definitely wrong about tearing down Bayside to put in more museums.
As for the many people that you talk to that don't go there...you are probably right.

As for making the baywalk more presentable, that project is underway.

There are many great organizations that you can join that will provide better understanding about the plans for the Central Business District and Park West Districts. Being more informed includes knowing how City, County, State, and Federal entities work (or don't work) together.
Leadership Miami is highly recommended. Graduates get first hand access to the people that are making things happen, and leave the program informed and engaged.

1) You want the discussion about Bayside to end then why bring it up?

2) Their never was a connection between the two parks to begin with un-like you previously stated. Besides the sidewalks that line the busy streets.

3)Roark I would only become a part of those organizations if a genuiss like you were teaching it.

2) Their never was a connection between the two parks to begin with un-like you previously stated. Besides the sidewalks that line the busy streets. So besides that one connection, there is no connection?
What you call "sidewalks the line busy streets" others call the Burle Marx New World Design Project. His only public project in the United States. Here is recent New York Times article on the late Roberto Burle Marx (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/21/arts/design/21burl.html?pagewanted=all).
You can check it out tomorrow at a Brazilian celebration featuring a free concert by Bossacucanova at the American Airlines Arena East Plaza
Here is the invite (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AzFF_lHQoh0/SsKkg7Q_t8I/AAAAAAAAKyA/3Eg5-hT2vxA/s1600-h/bossa.gif)
In addition to the most obvious connection along the Biscayne Boulevard, the second connection runs along the bayfront. Most people, can walk along the bay front from Bay front Park to Bicentennial Park. Give it a try tomorrow. Again, the seawall and path at Parcel B is under construction and a chain link fence was there last week, but people have walked along the water from one park to the other, and even you can do it if you try. This connection continues to be enhanced and improved.
3)Roark I would only become a part of those organizations if a genuiss like you were teaching it.
Excellent! Is that a promise? I'm on Economic Development again this year and Chairing the Arts & Culture session this year.
See you Oct. 24, I look forward to meeting you.

A Ferris Wheel would be cool.

I'm thinking Watson Island...
You would see the skyline, miami beach and the ocean.
Not sure how it would look though...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=536608&

1. Large Scale reduction of crime. Not just gentrification where the poverty and violence gets pushed somewhere else.

2. Beautification of some areas. With it's beautiful climate and capabality to grow exotic and vivid plantlife there's no reason why some areas should be all concrete and little landscaping. For example, parts of Hialeah.

3. More non-Hispanic people. I love Miami's latin flavor and how it truly is a gateway to the Carribbean/South America. However, I feel like if it attracted more people from different cultures, than just Hispanic, it would be a much more interesting and cosmopolitan city.

4. Better public schools. Dade County has some of the worst public schools in the state.

5. A safer, more populated, and bustling downtown. I know downtown has made strides in the last few years but instead of just making slight improvments if the downtown could be transformed into a bustling area where everyone wanted to live it would be a great thing for the city proper of Miami.

6. I feel like Miami Beach should become a "district" of Miami. If somehow it could retain it's own goverment but be counted as a part of the city of Miami I think that would be awesome.

Besides that I'm pretty content with my awesome city.

In regards to number 3. --you cant control what type of people comes to Miami!!! plus, the whole metropolitan area already attracts people from different cultures than just hispanics. I lived in South Beach, and there are a lot of diiferent cultures living in the small area of land, and now I live in Aventura, where you defenately don't see that many Hispanic people. Plus when you think of MIAMI, you think LATIN, that's just the way it is, love it or move somewhere else....:bash:

A Ferris Wheel would be cool.


Agreed, but we've still got to get that 'Telly Savalas Colossus' built first. :cheers:

A new Greyhound Bus terminal.

...Plus when you think of MIAMI, you think LATIN, that's just the way it is, love it or move somewhere else....:bash:

Is that somehow carved in stone?

no..........

but it IS written in grafitti.....!

no..........

but it IS written in grafitti.....!

^^^^^^

:lol:

In regards to number 3. --you cant control what type of people comes to Miami!!! plus, the whole metropolitan area already attracts people from different cultures than just hispanics. I lived in South Beach, and there are a lot of diiferent cultures living in the small area of land, and now I live in Aventura, where you defenately don't see that many Hispanic people. Plus when you think of MIAMI, you think LATIN, that's just the way it is, love it or move somewhere else....:bash:

Don't get me wrong, I love, love, love, Hispanic culture (food, music, language). And maybe you are right....depsite the nayayers you definetly could prove there is a good amount of diversity in dade county. Anyway I love Miami so I'm not goin anywhere :banana:

A Formula One-track

And I know just where to put it; Olesta River Recreation Area
And beforme you :bash: me for wanting to destroy a park; hear me out.

I would want to modell it after Albert Park, Melbourne or Nurburgring in Germany, a track nestled in greenery.
Sure, it would demand some space, but the key is to use the water as much as possible. So when there's a big race, you use floating stands for the spectators.

Also, it would be a unique track if it was to go through jungle and along the water, situated in the middle of Miami!
Imagine the tourist boom a formula one race in Miami would bring. We're talking Monaco equals a hundered!

:D

^ uh don't we have Homestead for racing already? Nascar is having some big race there soon. We also used to have the Miami Grand Prix where cars used to race on downtown streets and it didn't last.

^ uh don't we have Homestead for racing already? Nascar is having some big race there soon. We also used to have the Miami Grand Prix where cars used to race on downtown streets and it didn't last.

why was that? whatever happened to Miami Grand Prix? why did it fail...i used to love to watch it and look for familiar landmarks...

^ uh don't we have Homestead for racing already? Nascar is having some big race there soon. We also used to have the Miami Grand Prix where cars used to race on downtown streets and it didn't last.

Homestead isn't exactly Monte Carlo. The thing is to have it down town and get great views of the city = lure more tourists.

Formula One is one of the biggest sports in the world, we're talking a big market.
Imagine the cameria views of the Biscayne Bay and it's surroundings.
And a chopper filming all the way to down town. It would be massive!

Homestead isn't exactly Monte Carlo. The thing is to have it down town and get great views of the city = lure more tourists.

Formula One is one of the biggest sports in the world, we're talking a big market.
Imagine the cameria views of the Biscayne Bay and it's surroundings.
And a chopper filming all the way to down town. It would be massive!

Tourists aren't going to come because of the views they see. Race fans will come for the race and not for the views.

Besides, a Formula One race track is the last thing Miami needs. They already have the much bigger and important Homestead to the south. Besides, I don;t believe they even run a Grand Prix in America anymore. Indy was the last site.

Tourists aren't going to come because of the views they see. Race fans will come for the race and not for the views.

Besides, a Formula One race track is the last thing Miami needs. They already have the much bigger and important Homestead to the south. Besides, I don;t believe they even run a Grand Prix in America anymore. Indy was the last site.

Of course, but I'm talking about the fans at home. They will see the views and find Miami to be a cool city that they'd want to visit.

I'm not saying it's the first thing it needs, but I dont consider Homestead to be nearly as awesome as this would be.

Why don't you think they could have a Formula One in the US?

To keep looking more like Hawaii,I know this place will never have mountains but keep planting the type of foilage similar to what Hawaii has as I see a lot of similarities on the Miami Beach side with the palm-lined streets the intercoastal is similar to Aliwae Canal,the huge condominiums in Honolulu is similar to the Brickell Area. Wakiki Beach has a park simlar to Lummus Park in Miami Beach with all the tall palm trees.

Miami's air quality is clean as is Honolulu and both beaches are gorgeous with giving a slight edge to Hawaii,I would love to see Miami and its beaches as well as South Florida resemble the Hawaii of the lower 48 states,as I feel Hawaii sets a standard.
Wakiki Beach:

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&t=h&layer=c&cbll=21.275552,-157.825111&panoid=h6NkCuGCxxQJsbEBqyyeUg&cbp=13,259.39,,1,-5.87&source=embed&ll=21.275487,-157.825052&spn=0,359.999454&z=20




By the way Hawaii is on Google Street View

A suspension bridge.

Causeways are nice, but suspension bridges rocks.
I want something like Brooklyn Bridge, but in art deco.

Space Needle Kind of like in Seattle) or an observation place, that would be cool. More buildings with crowns.....I don't understand why we don't have them in Miami...it can't be cause of the hurricanes,. cause look at all the Asian's cities....their cities have lots of buildings with crowns or spires, and they do get typhons as well....so what is the different????

Space Needle Kind of like in Seattle) or an observation place, that would be cool. More buildings with crowns.....I don't understand why we don't have them in Miami...it can't be cause of the hurricanes,. cause look at all the Asian's cities....their cities have lots of buildings with crowns or spires, and they do get typhons as well....so what is the different????

Build a theme park on Watson Island with a Space Shoot-attraction. And on the top you can have a great observation tower overlooking downtown, Biscayne Bay and Miami Beach.

Bunjee Ride on Watson Island? What an idea-Yeehaw!!!!!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlp4NUYsjVI

A high end shopping street. LA has Rodeo Drive, NY has Fifth Avenue.
Sure, malls are great, but a proper shopping street would be "da shit".

Where would that fit in downtown?

A high end shopping street. LA has Rodeo Drive, NY has Fifth Avenue.
Sure, malls are great, but a proper shopping street would be "da shit".

Where would that fit in downtown?

Flagler Street. If Flagler Street were to be converted into a pedestrian-only street like Lincoln Road, it'd be really cool.

Flagler Street. If Flagler Street were to be converted into a pedestrian-only street like Lincoln Road, it'd be really cool.

Why not, I was thinking more like Miami World Center, but that'll do fine.

I like the idea of Flagler becoming pedestrian-only....it also needs a few more high-end stores and less of the souvenir shops, jewelry/pawn shops, and currency exchange places. This would attract more pedestrians to the downtown area and increase nightlife...

As for things Miami still needs...

-Movie theater in downtown/Brickell area
-Expanded public transit, obviously (metrorail, light rail, streetcar, express bus, whatever, just SOMETHING more than what we have now)
-something to revitalize the Park West and Overtown neighborhoods (this would make the entire downtown area north of the river safer)....a massive construction project would be nice

Most importantly, Miami still needs a day where the airport, expressways, or the downtown skyline is NOT under construction! lol, im not sure if thats ever gonna happen but only then will Miami be "complete".

A retired warship somewhere in downtown would be nice. Make it a museum and have a maritime museum next to it.

A retired warship somewhere in downtown would be nice. Make it a museum and have a maritime museum next to it.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=625861
^^

whynot a "REAL" Aquarium? I can't believe Miami does not have a decent Aquarium with better looking attractions and bigger pools for the animals??? Atlanta has one of the best I have seen in the country....and Miami being so close to the ocean....has Miami Seaquarium which needs remodeling.

whynot a "REAL" Aquarium? I can't believe Miami does not have a decent Aquarium with better looking attractions and bigger pools for the animals??? If you are passionate about it, and you notice this need being expressed by hundreds of your peers and friends, then pursue it! Personally, I wouldn't invest in another Aquarium, but it is a free conuntry, and if you really really believe that Miami NEEDS it, build it.

Unlike Atlanta, Miami has a beach and natural coral reefs, and some of the best manmade reefs in world. It's great to grab a snorkel and fins and go about 25 yrds off of the 4th street beach and check out that natural reef. Even better to dive the sunken WWII Tanks, or sunken jetliners that are placed only a short boatride from government cut.

PS. Make sure to post on the Things Atlanta Still Needs.... thread, "Atlanta needs a "REAL" ocean, not a fake one with little salt water pools for the animals.:)