neph check out your pm box. :)

Neph, you share your opinions in detail to those who want to read them while respecting other people and their opinions (and I don't have to tell you how many people in today's america don't do that on the internet, or off of it). How can you question the fact that you are doing exactly what you should be doing?
I'm not questioning what I'm doing, just questioning you if you understand me correctly and thanks for doing just that! :)

this thread has given me some great information, so i'll throw one more out on the table:

despite the obvious issues of FIP's and cheese heads, what does Milwaukee (not Wisconsin...just Milwaukee) REALLY think of Chicago

??????????????????

what exactly is the relationship between Milwaukee and Madison?

Despite Milwaukee's size advantage, I always felt that it doesn't have the draw of the state as Madison does for reasons other than the later being the state capital. I guess part of it is that UW is not your typical state university (more Ann Arbor in atmosphere than Champaign) and that the city's confining real estate between two lakes gives it an unusually urban feel for a smaller city, as well as a sophistication you don't usually see with 200,000 people, Madison is just different. Madison, maybe because of the # of Chgo area kids at UW, seems more tied to Chgo than the Milw feeling of being in Chgo's shaddow.

What does that do to the relationship between the two. And am I off-base on my observations?

When you say the draw of the state I see you specificaly talking about the folks in the smaller towns and rural areas of WI. With that I feel like I'm in a perfect place to give you an answer. I think most people around the state are very proud of it's capital city. They see it as a very desireable place to live and raise a family. Madison has a success story that most people around here know about. They see it as a thriving, happening place. It's a larger town then what they're used to but not with all the large city problems places like Milwaukee and Chicago has. The news people around the state here about Madison is always good but on the other hand the news from Milwaukee isn't always so good. We here of packs of kids running wild on the streets beating to death helpless citizens and what not and that sticks in people's minds.

Yes Madison does have a good urban feel to it and is growing but that's as long as your in or near the downtown. The city does sit between two lakes and is compressed but once you leave the area around downtown it becomes very sprawlsville. The city and suburbs are growing outwords at an alarming rate and reminds me of other cities that have this problem. however Madison is trying to correct this. In the last several years condos and apartment buildings have been erected downtown and this trend doesn't seem to be letting up at all. Actually downtown Madison is doing very well and is booming!

this thread has given me some great information, so i'll throw one more out on the table:

despite the obvious issues of FIP's and cheese heads, what does Milwaukee (not Wisconsin...just Milwaukee) REALLY think of Chicago

??????????????????
LOL, that's FIBs not FIPs, Fucking Illinios bastards.

Again, I'm not a Milwaukeean so don't take my answer as being from a Milwaukeean but to me Chicago is a city I would very much want to visit. I always wanted to go through it's museums and tour her lakefront. The Chicago river downtown is so amazing that for me just to spend half a day on the river in a boat would be great! LOL, as long as I don't get shit dumped on my head!

I don't care for clubing, I'm to old for that kind of night life. I'm more a Milwaukee type guy who can have the time of his life just sitting at a corner tavern, shoot pool and have good conversation.

Chicago would be a great place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there. I'm used to living in a town of 80,000 not 8,000,000.

I don't care for clubing, I'm to old for that kind of night life. I'm more a Milwaukee type guy who can have the time of his life just sitting at a corner tavern, shoot pool and have good conversation.



i live in chicago, and i don't care much for clubbing either. i am much more of a corner tavern guy myself and chicago literally has hundreds if not thousands of corner taverns with pool tables, dart boards, juke boxes full of classic rock and cheap draft beer.

chicago is so super-gigantic big that you can find just about everything imaginable that a person might want. chicago has its hip trendy areas with their club scenes, but you also must remember that there are huge swaths of the city filled with working class folks- people who would never be caught dead in some hip and trendy downtown night club.

i live in chicago, and i don't care much for clubbing either. i am much more of a corner tavern guy myself and chicago literally has hundreds if not thousands of corner taverns with pool tables, dart boards, juke boxes full of classic rock and cheap draft beer.

chicago is so super-gigantic big that you can find just about everything imaginable that a person might want. chicago has its hip trendy areas with their club scenes, but you also must remember that there are huge swaths of the city filled with working class folks- people who would never be caught dead in some hip and trendy downtown night club.

Hey sharptent! Paule here. How you doin old friend

No I know you and I have talked about this before and I know one thing Chicago and Milwaukee has in common is it's corner tavern scene. I was more or less looking at it as that Chicago does have a real club night life scene where Milwaukee doesn't and any appeal for that is lost with me.

Your comment about Chicago as being "so super-gigantic big" is where my appeal for Chicago is lost. I was on a recent camping trip that when I left my house it took me 30 minutes to be sitting on a beautiful little island in the middle of the Wisconsin river in front of a lake, with a rageing camp fire and classic rock blareing from my boom box! To me that's a day trip and I love the idea of being able to do that.

Hehehe this edsg sounds so much like you Sharptent that I actually thought he was you. You both see things the same way about Milwaukee and Chicago that it is very uncanny.

^ holy shit paule, i thought you disappeared, i had no idea that was you man.

how you been man? let me know if you're gonna be in milwaukee anytime in the next several months and i'll be sure to get myself up there. if i am not mistaken, one of us still owes the other a beer, but i am not sure who owes who anymore ;).

it's been about 6 months since i've been up to milwaukee, and i am starting to get a little twitchy. 6 months is far too long to stay away from the maginificent milwaukee.

^ holy shit paule, i thought you disappeared, i had no idea that was you man.

how you been man? let me know if you're gonna be in milwaukee anytime in the next several months and i'll be sure to get myself up there. if i am not mistaken, one of us still owes the other a beer, but i am not sure who owes who anymore ;).

it's been about 6 months since i've been up to milwaukee, and i am starting to get a little twitchy. 6 months is far too long to stay away from the maginificent milwaukee.

Yep it's me. I didn't think you visited SSC very much myself, I figured you usualy stay with SSP? About that beer I don't know but I'm willing to say you owe me. Hey that's what you get for asking LOL!

I want to go down and take pictures of Kilbourn Tower as soon as it's toped off so I'll be planning a trip soon. The building is supposed to be 33 floors and I believe they're at 22 now so... And plus I owe my brother money and I'd rather pay him in cash. I'll let you know when but I'm thinking early Oct. right now. edsg25 is invited too if he wants a tour of the town and have some fun? Of course that invitation is extended to everyone here as well!

A present for all you city slickers!

Pics from my recent camping trip I was talking about.

http://www.boomspeed.com/paule17/004.jpg

A few friendly faces
http://www.boomspeed.com/paule17/005.jpg

Yep it's me. I didn't think you visited SSC very much myself, I figured you usualy stay with SSP? About that beer I don't know but I'm willing to say you owe me. Hey that's what you get for asking LOL!

I want to go down and take pictures of Kilbourn Tower as soon as it's toped off so I'll be planning a trip soon. The building is supposed to be 33 floors and I believe they're at 22 now so... And plus I owe my brother money and I'd rather pay him in cash. I'll let you know when but I'm thinking early Oct. right now. edsg25 is invited too if he wants a tour of the town and have some fun? Of course that invitation is extended to everyone here as well!

sweet, early october will work for me, just let me know a little bit ahead of time when you nail down a date. i am excited to see what kilbourne will look like in the skyline once it's topped out. should be pretty cool.

as for your camping pics, yeah, that definitely makes me jealous that you can get away into the woods so quickly. me, i haven't left the city in about 2 months now and i was supposed to go camping up in wisconsin last weekend, but work deadlines got in the way and well..... i am just going a little batty. i LOVE chicago more than any human except for possibly mayor daley, but sometimes you just need to get away, and i wish it was easier to do that in chicago..........

but i still wouldn't trade city-living for anything in the world. different strokes.

sweet, early october will work for me, just let me know a little bit ahead of time when you nail down a date. i am excited to see what kilbourne will look like in the skyline once it's topped out. should be pretty cool.

as for your camping pics, yeah, that definitely makes me jealous that you can get away into the woods so quickly. me, i haven't left the city in about 2 months now and i was supposed to go camping up in wisconsin last weekend, but work deadlines got in the way and well..... i am just going a little batty. i LOVE chicago more than any human except for possibly mayor daley, but sometimes you just need to get away, and i wish it was easier to do that in chicago..........

but i still wouldn't trade city-living for anything in the world. different strokes.
I understand and you know I am a bit jealous of you too living in such a great city. I mean don't get me wrong I do see the advantages and the possible high you get. I mean I'm sitting here talking to you aren't I?

You bet I'll keep you informed. As soon as I see Kilbourn being topped off I will give you a date. They seem to be putting it up at a good clip. Did you see my progress pics? that was just over 3 weeks ago so I'd say sometime in Oct. they will top it off.

I've lived in all three cities, so I feel obligated to chime in. (these are very general and aren't supposed to be taken too seriously...they're all great cities, each with a diverse populace)


Chicagoans see Milwaukee as a friendly, unsophisticated neighbor who drinks their can of Pabst with zero irony. Fun place to visit, but it doesn't pack enough punch.

Chicagoans see Madison as a cute little college town. Cosmopolitan in the midst of cheeseheads. They'd love to have it as their state capital and university city.

Milwaukeeans see Chicago as their uber-popular big brother who gets all of the attention. They're not sure if being under the radar is a good or bad thing, though. Fun place to visit, but they like being able to actually buy a house and move faster than 10mph on the freeway.

Milwaukeeans see Madison as their immature little brother. He thinks he knows everything, he can change the world, party all night, and sleep all day. That said, they still like to visit for a ballgame, throw on a red sweatshirt, and pretend they're 19 again.

Madisonians don't see Milwaukee.

Madisonians see Chicago as a their antithesis in a lot of ways. It's gigantic, chaotic, corporate oriented, fast paced, and crime-ridden. If they're older or super-liberal they don't want anything to do with it. For everyone else, it's there for an occasional two hour drive if they want. Most prefer to stay in their bubble of perfection.

from this Chicagoan's perspective: when I go to Wisconsin or see picture of it (as here), I have one regret:

back when they drew the line between the two states, they didn't go with the original choice (a line basically running east-west from the southern limit of Lake Michigan) than where they put it (to give Illinois frontage on Lk Mich).

the way it did work out (for what it's worth) is the vast majority of Chicagoans know Wisconsin a heckuva lot better than they do downstate Illinois....and for good reason.

no question, theodore, madison rolled up into one far outpaces champaign, urbana, and springfield combined!

capital cities i can see, but with madison, iowa city, ann arbor, and bloomington out there, how my state ended up with champaign/urbana is beyond me!

i actually think evanston is the best college town in state.

I've lived in all three cities, so I feel obligated to chime in. (these are very general and aren't supposed to be taken too seriously...they're all great cities, each with a diverse populace)


Chicagoans see Milwaukee as a friendly, unsophisticated neighbor who drinks their can of Pabst with zero irony. Fun place to visit, but it doesn't pack enough punch.

Chicagoans see Madison as a cute little college town. Cosmopolitan in the midst of cheeseheads. They'd love to have it as their state capital and university city.

Milwaukeeans see Chicago as their uber-popular big brother who gets all of the attention. They're not sure if being under the radar is a good or bad thing, though. Fun place to visit, but they like being able to actually buy a house and move faster than 10mph on the freeway.

Milwaukeeans see Madison as their immature little brother. He thinks he knows everything, he can change the world, party all night, and sleep all day. That said, they still like to visit for a ballgame, throw on a red sweatshirt, and pretend they're 19 again.

Madisonians don't see Milwaukee.

Madisonians see Chicago as a their antithesis in a lot of ways. It's gigantic, chaotic, corporate oriented, fast paced, and crime-ridden. If they're older or super-liberal they don't want anything to do with it. For everyone else, it's there for an occasional two hour drive if they want. Most prefer to stay in their bubble of perfection.

Great post! I really enjoyed reading it.

back when they drew the line between the two states, they didn't go with the original choice (a line basically running east-west from the southern limit of Lake Michigan) than where they put it (to give Illinois frontage on Lk Mich).
Wow! Wisconsin would've been a powerhouse of a state! I heard the line was originally supposed to be more southern but I remember hearing that the line would've run half way through Lake county.


the way it did work out (for what it's worth) is the vast majority of Chicagoans know Wisconsin a heckuva lot better than they do downstate Illinois....and for good reason.
Well yeah...a hell of a lot more Fibs travel north on vacation then cheeseheads travel south. If we travel south we usualy don't stop in Illinios except to gas up and eat.

back when they drew the line between the two states, they didn't go with the original choice (a line basically running east-west from the southern limit of Lake Michigan) than where they put it (to give Illinois frontage on Lk Mich).

Interesting! My 5th grade social studies in my Detroit school taught me that a similar thing happened vis a vis Michigan and Ohio. The border of Michigan was supposed to extend from the southernmost point of lake Michigan all the way across to Erie, but the map they drew it on was inaccurate and effectively gave Michigan control of 'the toledo strip' which included the city of Toledo.

When Michigan applied for statehood a veritable 'war' broke out when Michiganians and Ohians formed militias and each state approved a military budget and both 'armies' went on expidition to Toledo, where they didn't shoot each other but came to blows

When President Jackson, iirc, intervened, he forced Michigan to comply with the Congress ruling in favor of Ohio.

So Michigan gave in, but gained the upper peninsula as compensation



...ahem... so,.. yeah..... :runaway:

http://www.nbc.com/footer/tmyk/images/home_logo.jpg

When President Jackson, iirc, intervened, he forced Michigan to comply with the Congress ruling in favor of Ohio.

So Michigan gave in, but gained the upper peninsula as compensation



...ahem... so,.. yeah..... :runaway:
ah-ha! more land stolen from Wisconsin!!! I suppose I should now expect someone from Minn or Iowa come here and tell us how the boundry for Wisconsin was really west of the Mississippi! :bash:

No really, :jk: , thanks for posting. I always wondered why the UP, which I think everyone has, isn't part of Wisconsin. I mean really...there's more Packer fans up there than Lions fans.

a little known fact: during the Toledo strip border war, Bo Schembecker and Woody Hayes generaled the two sides.

I have the theme song of Laverne and Shirley going through my head, and it's all your fault because I saw this thread title and it made me think of it.

Just thought I'd let you all know.

http://www.albertspage.it/sigle_tv/foto/Shirley&Laverne14.jpg

I have the theme song of Laverne and Shirley going through my head, and it's all your fault because I saw this thread title and it made me think of it.

Just thought I'd let you all know.

http://www.albertspage.it/sigle_tv/foto/Shirley&Laverne14.jpg


If you look back on the first page of this thread, you wished us good luck and hoped we could continue our long thread tradition.


I guess your wish came true. :laugh:

Madisonians see Chicago as a their antithesis in a lot of ways. It's gigantic, chaotic, corporate oriented, fast paced, and crime-ridden. If they're older or super-liberal they don't want anything to do with it. For everyone else, it's there for an occasional two hour drive if they want. Most prefer to stay in their bubble of perfection.

i never knew that chicago was despised by madisonians. i always thought that madison, being a college town, would be filled with a lot of art and culture loving people who would, at the very least, take advantage of chicago's copious offerings in that department.

i have heard of the madison "bubble" before, but it is so severe that, say, a fan of Monet would stay away from chicago even if a large, world-wide tour of Monet's works came through the art institute of chicago?

i never knew that chicago was despised by madisonians. i always thought that madison, being a college town, would be filled with a lot of art and culture loving people who would, at the very least, take advantage of chicago's copious offerings in that department.



I think it's between the two. Madisonians, much like Milwaukeeans, view Chicago as a great place to visit for a weekend and a huge asset to live within two hours of. On the other hand. I think, like theo mentioned, both prefer to live in their respective cities. I don't think anyone outside of the deep south can really hate Chicago. :)

^ why would people in the deep south hate chicago?


and also, i understand the point about people preferring to live in their respective city; theo's statement about madisonians made it seem like they not only prefer to live in madison, but that they also actively dislike chicago. i simply never knew that about the madison temperment before.

Actually I've never heard anyone here truly trash Chicago ('though I personally have my reservations about the place), but a lot of folks in Madtown still have ties to NYC and the east coast, so it doesn't loom as large in the psychic landscape as one (especially a Chi-town FIB) might suppose.
That said, there are still a lot of busses daily to O'Hare, plenty of locals take the toll roads to see the special exhibits at the Field or Art Institute, and there always seems to be a friend or relative going to some wedding or Bar Mitzvah at one of the big hotels, and they'll usually take in a show while they're spending the weekend there; and I personally have several acquaintances who are big enough Cubs fans that they travel all the way to Wrigley to take in a game when they have a chance (it is also rumored that a former mayor of our fair city used to go regularly to Arlington Park in pursuit of his favorite sport).
There are still a few people in town who insist on getting by in a bubble (notably a faction of the city council)--mostly inflated by their own hot air. Sometime in the last 25 years or so Madisonians seemed to become awfully infatuated with themselves, smug, self-important, and oblivious to the intellectual decline they were undergoing, and the decline in reputation of the city's (and state's) most important institution. I think, maybe, for whatever reasons, the place has gotten back on track recently, and I hope we can all benefit, economy permitting, from lessons learned and ideas inspired when traveling around to our neighbors-- large, medium, and getting there-- in this little corner of the universe.

('though I personally have my reservations about the place)

out of curiosity, what might those reservations be?

^ why would people in the deep south hate chicago?


and also, i understand the point about people preferring to live in their respective city; theo's statement about madisonians made it seem like they not only prefer to live in madison, but that they also actively dislike chicago. i simply never knew that about the madison temperment before.


well, I was joking, but the people in the deep south have a contempt for "dem big jew-lovin' cities with glass buildings, jews, and fancy sidewalks."

j/k :laugh:

If you look back on the first page of this thread, you wished us good luck and hoped we could continue our long thread tradition.


I guess your wish came true. :laugh:
Yeah, and guess what? That was 6 days shy of 2 years ago!!!! :cheers:

Yeah, and guess what? That was 6 days shy of 2 years ago!!!! :cheers:
Neph looks both ways and says "I'll drink to that"!

2 years ago?...man I miss world forum...I remember comeing here when WorldSkyscraperForum closed and thinking to myself...why are they being so cruel to us, how could they have let this happen?

P.S. I loved Laverne and Shirley!

^ why would people in the deep south hate chicago?


and also, i understand the point about people preferring to live in their respective city; theo's statement about madisonians made it seem like they not only prefer to live in madison, but that they also actively dislike chicago. i simply never knew that about the madison temperment before.
ah, but you missed Theodore's last statement and that is what holds the key. "most perfer to stay in their bubble of perfection". Come on Sharptent, when everyone tells you you live in a number one city when you already believe that you do...you really start to believe and act that you do.

I don't think Madisonites actively dislike Chicago at all, really, that is not their temperment. Their temperment is simply that they know they got a good, unique thing going themselves and they wish to live it. Please refer back to my other posts on Madison and maybe you'll see the picture

Actually I've never heard anyone here truly trash Chicago ('though I personally have my reservations about the place), but a lot of folks in Madtown still have ties to NYC and the east coast, so it doesn't loom as large in the psychic landscape as one (especially a Chi-town FIB) might suppose.
That said, there are still a lot of busses daily to O'Hare, plenty of locals take the toll roads to see the special exhibits at the Field or Art Institute, and there always seems to be a friend or relative going to some wedding or Bar Mitzvah at one of the big hotels, and they'll usually take in a show while they're spending the weekend there; and I personally have several acquaintances who are big enough Cubs fans that they travel all the way to Wrigley to take in a game when they have a chance (it is also rumored that a former mayor of our fair city used to go regularly to Arlington Park in pursuit of his favorite sport).
There are still a few people in town who insist on getting by in a bubble (notably a faction of the city council)--mostly inflated by their own hot air. Sometime in the last 25 years or so Madisonians seemed to become awfully infatuated with themselves, smug, self-important, and oblivious to the intellectual decline they were undergoing, and the decline in reputation of the city's (and state's) most important institution. I think, maybe, for whatever reasons, the place has gotten back on track recently, and I hope we can all benefit, economy permitting, from lessons learned and ideas inspired when traveling around to our neighbors-- large, medium, and getting there-- in this little corner of the universe.
From the mind of a real Madisonite!

I think I might have a bit of Mad-city in me after all. I mean much of what you said I agree with and have written here about. The midwest isn't on Madison's radar, even if more so in the past.

I don't think Madisonites actively dislike Chicago at all, really, that is not their temperment. Their temperment is simply that they know they got a good, unique thing going themselves and they wish to live it.


That's pretty much it. They don't despise Chicago at all, but they certainly see it from a different perspective. Madisonians see things Chicagoans sometimes ignore, or at least put up with; i.e. traffic, gangs, crime, urban decay, extreme wealth and poverty. It reaffirms to them why Madison is a perfect city.

I suppose a Chicagoan would assume that Madison, being a fellow liberal and cosmopolitan outpost in the midwest, would look up to Chicago and travel there often but that's really not the case. They are in their own world.

Neph looks both ways and says "I'll drink to that"!

2 years ago?...man I miss world forum...I remember comeing here when WorldSkyscraperForum closed and thinking to myself...why are they being so cruel to us, how could they have let this happen?

P.S. I loved Laverne and Shirley!
I also just realized that I spelled Milwaukee wrong in that post!! :D

Well I'm not from Wilmaukee ;) nor have I ever been there but I've always admired the way you guys do these looooong threads so I thought I'd drop in and say Keep up the good work, seems like good city spirit. :)



EDIT: I just realized, almost 2 years later, that I spelled ^Milwaukee wrong!! :D
Don't worry, I think I can let that little mistake slide. Besides, I think Alice Cooper has the real Milwaukee pronunciation down pat so in that light none of us prononce it correctly and that makes us even ;)

out of curiosity, what might those reservations be?
Well, they might be with United Airlines.
Don't mean to rouse anyone's defenses, though I know from experience that Chicacagoans jealously protect their town's self-designated reputation, but, after all, not everyone on this planet with the opportunity to has chosen to live in El City. (then what would rent and real estate prices be like?!?)
Seriously, no place is perfect all the time. I think what's most important is the direction in which change is going. I think the Midwest in general went through a very rough and undistinguished spell for nearly a generation, but, based on what I see, read and experience, is regaining lost vigor, hopefully asserting its traditional cultural roots while restoring a competitive economy, and also recognizing, as it must, that it will probably never have the satisfaction again of ever believing that America was mostly itself.
Chicago, of course, reflects a lot of this and, architecturally, possesses much at it's center that is good, great and interesting, very much at its periphery that is anything but. A tremendous amount of work needs to be done to in some way create a sense of wholeness out of these parts. It's beginning to be done. Immense sums are being spent to bring residential life to barren brownfields, and in revitalizing neglected and damaged neighborhoods. In my opinion that's the right direction to go. Chicago institutions, public and private, historically, do things in a big way. That's what made the city great, but it's also what makes the undoing of mistakes and the retooling of the obsolete such an expensive and daunting task.

If you count that "What About Milwaukee" thread that was on another website before it was moved to this one, this thread is about 3 1/2 years old (or something like that).










that's a long time. 2 years is a long time for a thread to be "alive"

For those who were asking about KT construction pics, there are some in the photo thread I just put together over at SSP:

http://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=54158

Those are fresh from this morning. And as far as the edited photos of KT and UCT go, I was at the site and it seems like they're going to be much closer together. It's something like a 25-foot alley in between the two towers, though I'm not 100% sure on the distance. Worst. Decision. Ever.

And WAM, in all of its many incarnations, isn't quite three years old yet...give it about a month. :)

Very nice pics CG5! I saw someone there made the comment on how clean Milwaukee looks in some of those pics and I have to agree with that. I like how some of the brewery buildings such as the Jos. Schiltz Brewery looks well kept even though empty for so many years.

I love those new condos in the Beer Line. The whole place looks so inviteing and clean. Milwaukee is doing such a nice job!

Thanks for shareing with us!!!

I like how some of the brewery buildings such as the Jos. Schiltz Brewery looks well kept even though empty for so many years.

The Schlitz looks well kept because it is well kept, because most of it hasn't been empty in years. It was rehabbed in the 1980s-90s as an office complex.

Those are fresh from this morning. And as far as the edited photos of KT and UCT go, I was at the site and it seems like they're going to be much closer together. It's something like a 25-foot alley in between the two towers, though I'm not 100% sure on the distance. Worst. Decision. Ever.

No alley between the buildings--the bases almost touch. The ~20 ft gap between the two buildings is from the 7th floor upward.

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/641/120section_north_south.jpg

The Schlitz looks well kept because it is well kept, because most of it hasn't been empty in years. It was rehabbed in the 1980s-90s as an office complex.

Thanks Mark but now I'm confused and wondering why Harley Davidson decided not to use the building as their HD museum giving the reasons of the price tag of renovateing the building as being to pricey. Are we talking about a different building then what CG5 pictured in his SSP thread? I don't know, right now I'm scratching my head.

And those buildings are way too close!

Thanks Mark but now I'm confused and wondering why Harley Davidson decided not to use the building as their HD museum giving the reasons of the price tag of renovateing the building as being to pricey. Are we talking about a different building then what CG5 pictured in his SSP thread? I don't know, right now I'm scratching my head.


Yes, different buildings. The brewery consisted of several buildings on several blocks; most of them were rehabbed several years ago--which are the well-kept buildings in CG5's photos to which you are referring. Only a few spaces of the former brewery remain vacant, including the old brewhouse which Harley originally planned to renovate for its museum (and is not shown in CG5's pics).

Funny...I thought that Harlkey was looking at Pabst. Eh. Whatever/

And on a side note...THE BASES WILL ALMOST TOUCH? I have to go vomit. Please excuse me.

it's very common for tall buildings to be built right next to each other in chicago, why do you milwaukee folks find it so objectionable?

i mean, as urbanists we're all fans of density, and sometimes you have to sacrafice a bit on the pure asthetics of individual buildings and start to appreciate the piled on top of eachother, jumbled nature of the super-dense skyline. maybe these building are just the begining of a super-dense milwaukee skyline. would that be a bad thing?

it's very common for tall buildings to be built right next to each other in chicago, why do you milwaukee folks find it so objectionable?

i mean, as urbanists we're all fans of density, and sometimes you have to sacrafice a bit on the pure asthetics of individual buildings and start to appreciate the piled on top of eachother, jumbled nature of the super-dense skyline. maybe these building are just the begining of a super-dense milwaukee skyline. would that be a bad thing?

It is not an issue of aesthetics (i.e. "does it look good?"); it is an issue of poor design from the standpoint of how the two buildings physically relate to each other.

Just look at the first few floors of the two buildings in that drawing I posted--UCT is the tower in the center, KT is the tower on the right. North is to the right, south is to the left in the drawing.

Look at that small gap at the base of the buildings--that's less than 10 feet apart (it looks closer to 5 feet at most). Now consider that there are residential units in KT at that level which have windows facing out to that narrow cavernous gap. I'll bet you could open one of those windows, lean out and touch the neighboring facade of UCT. Those units won't bet getting much sunlight down there, thus the windows are essentially useless. Now, sure, there are probably hundreds of similar closely-spaced situations in the city, especially in the older neighborhoods of wood-framed houses with a spacing of only a few feet between houses, but these are two signature luxury condominium towers we're talking about here.

Now let's move up above the base of UCT, where the tower portion is set back to make that wider ~20 ft gap between the buildings. That's not so bad, really; perfectly acceptable, to be honest. That is, until you condiser the south-facing facade of KT, with its balconies and windows, looks at a virtually blank wall (there are some windows on that side, but most of that face is blank) of UCT across that ~20 ft gap. On the plus side, the length of the northern facade of UCT is shorter than the length of KT's south-facing facade, so at least the side-rear units of KT will have some more open exposure compared to the side-front units.

Now take into consideration that KT was designed, proposed, and approved, before the final designs for UCT were ever completed. This means there was plenty of time to come up with a design (at least for the northern faces of UCT, where the problems are) that would take into consideration the presence of Kilbourn Tower next door instead of completely ingoring it--that's just plain irresponsible design. At the very least, the architects/developers of UCT should have widened that narrow gap at the bottom to match the upper portion of the tower and done something to the facade so it wouldn't be a virtually blank wall.

^ i see your points, but in big cities like chicago and new york, it is very common for towers to stand only 20 ft. apart, hell, in many cases, towers rise right next to each other without so much as an inch between them. when towers are spaced very closely together, it does make the windows on that facade somewhat useless, but this is a condition that exists all over the place in very dense cities. do you milwaukeans not want your city's skyline to take on this super-dense format?

There's nothing wrong with a dense format, as long as it's done well. In this case, it doesn't seem to be done well. Good design should never be sacrificed.

And this isn't Chicago. And it's definately not New York. There's plenty of room in downtown Milwaukee...even on University Club's land. It just seems tactical, to be honest.

And this isn't Chicago. And it's definately not New York. There's plenty of room in downtown Milwaukee...even on University Club's land. It just seems tactical, to be honest.


Can we please just accept the fact that these towers will be built. I still don't know why you're so fuming over this...that is the UCT'S land, and for all you know they could have been secretly panning a building ona that site for years. Look at the prospect Ave. skyline a mile up the road... a lot of those buildings almost touch!


anyway, on a different note, anyone catch trailers for "Mr. 3000." It was obvioulsy filmes in Milwaukee, but I dont know that much about. Actaully, I ddint even know they were filming here.

Filming Mr. 3000 at Miller Park was all over the news during the summer of 2003. You couldn't turn on the TV, read the newspaper, or listen to the radio without hearing about it. You must have been out of town.

Filming Mr. 3000 at Miller Park was all over the news during the summer of 2003. You couldn't turn on the TV, read the newspaper, or listen to the radio without hearing about it. You must have been out of town.


I was. :) Thanks.

Speaking of Mr. 3000, it apears you were Mr. 1300, Fiddler, the 1300th reply, that is :) Just thought i would point that out. I was most definatly out of town at the time too, i had never heard of the movie until this fall. Looks like a real winner! ;)

I had friends who are in the crowd at Miller Park. They said it was fun. Whatever, I had a boring factory job to hold down.

Fiddler - :|

Anyone here watch Survivor? I don't but thought I'd let you know that the very, very, hot brunette named Leann Slaby is from none other than the city of Wausau, actually from a suburb called Kronenwetter. There was a big write up on her in the local paper the other day and thought I'd let you know. They had a big picture of her in a bathing suit that I'm sure made every boy in town drool. :)

In this article it says she is now living and employed in the Milwaukee area. Oh, and you may thank me latter guys for the tip but she is single!!!
http://www.realitytvworld.com/index/articles/person.php?p=123

http://www.boomspeed.com/paule17/123.jpg

Nice picture of downtown from JSOnline. Look at how the Kilbourn will effect the skyline! And it's not even topped off yet!

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/brew/img/sep04/mpark922.jpg

Nice picture of downtown from JSOnline. Look at how the Kilbourn will effect the skyline! And it's not even topped off yet!

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/brew/img/sep04/mpark922.jpg

My normal view of the Milwaukee skyline is coming in from the south, coming up from Chicago. I often thought that was Milw's best skyline view, but that western one from Miller Pk sure makes it look more massive than it does on the south.

My normal view of the Milwaukee skyline is coming in from the south, coming up from Chicago. I often thought that was Milw's best skyline view, but that western one from Miller Pk sure makes it look more massive than it does on the south.

The view from the south shows how the downtown is strung out east to west which covers alot more area than this north to south view in the pic above. The pic above is a bit misleading in that the depth perception is askewed. It seems that all the buildings are near each other as in right across the street from each other but when your view is from the south you see most of these buildings far apart as in blocks away from each other.

I should also point out that anyone driveing up on downtown Milwaukee from the west on I94 never really gets a good view such as this one. The tallest buildings like the USBank, the 100 E, and a few others can be seen at a distance but it isn't untill you're at the western edge of downtown when you are awarded with a western view of the whole skyline. Comeing from the south on I 94 is a different matter because you are able to see the whole southern skyline at a distance and that's why I like this pic so much because it's one you don't normaly see.

Nice pic. Uh, the skyline too. :wink2:

They should build a whole bunch of highrises between downtown and Miller Park along the river so that you'd get a closer-up view of the skyline from the stadium. That would be cool. :)

Though from that shot it does look pretty decent - unless it was taken with a telephoto lens? :?

Naw, that's her. Like Neph said, the skyline is strung out east-west, so this view from the west, slightly to the south, makes it look much more compact. It's a gorgeous pic!

They should build a whole bunch of highrises between downtown and Miller Park along the river so that you'd get a closer-up view of the skyline from the stadium. That would be cool. :)


Soil conditions prevent any high-rises from being built in the Menomonee River Valley, since the Valley was a giant marsh filled in with dirt, rocks, coal cinders, garbage, wood, brush, and whatever else is burried there.

In order for a closer view of the skyline from the stadium, the stadium should have been built in Downtown. That would be cool.

Soil conditions prevent any high-rises from being built in the Menomonee River Valley, since the Valley was a giant marsh filled in with dirt, rocks, coal cinders, garbage, wood, brush, and whatever else is burried there.

In order for a closer view of the skyline from the stadium, the stadium should have been built in Downtown. That would be cool.


soil conditions, schmoil schmodintions. I wanna see that shit.

soil conditions, schmoil schmodintions. I wanna see that shit.
I agree with both you and Bond that it would be great for that kind of development in the valley but unfortunatly Markitect is right. However, what ever happend to the great plans on the redevelopment of the area that is there? Markitect you should know about this. Why does it seem that they aren't doing anything down there? Has the city abandoned their plans?

However, what ever happend to the great plans on the redevelopment of the area that is there? Markitect you should know about this. Why does it seem that they aren't doing anything down there? Has the city abandoned their plans?

Those plans are in the process of becoming reality--it's being worked on already. It's in the preparatory stage right now--getting land available, establishing design guidelines, infrastructure work, environmental contamination clean-up. You likely won't see any buildings go up down there for another year or two, until all the prep stuff is completed.

Great, that's the most dense angle I've ever seen of Milwaukee.

soil conditions, schmoil schmodintions. I wanna see that shit.

Call God. Maybe he'll do you a favor.

Some stats about a very small handfull of recent Downtown condo developments in Milwaukee, from the Journal Sentinel:

RiverCourt (completed August 2004)
Vetter Denk
24 units/18 sold
Starting price = $259,900

Park Terrace (broke ground September 2004)
Vetter Denk
37 units/hearly half sold
Starting price = $266,400 (row houses); $399,900 (single-family houses)

Riverbridge (under construction)
New Land Enterprises
39 units/38 sold (first phase)
39 units/26 sold (second pahse)
39 units/5 sold (third phase)
Starting price = $175,000

The Sterling (under construction)
New Land Enterprises
112 units/12 sold
Starting price = $169,900

CityGreen (breaks ground Fall 2004)
New Land Enterprises
44 units/9 sold
Starting price = $355,000

University Club Tower (breaks ground Spetember 2004)
Mandel Group
56 units/36 sold
Price range = $1.5 million to $2.5 million

RiverCrest (under construction)
Mandel Group
12 units/2 sold (first phase)
Starting price = $269,900

Marine Terminal Lofts (marketing phase)
Mandel Group
84 units/none sold; 18 reservations
Starting price = $164,900

Harbor Front (under construction)
Renner
80 units/52 sold (first phase)
Starting price = $199,500

First Place on the River (marketing phase)
Keybridge Development
180 units/none sold; 45 reservations
Starting price = $150,000

Kilbourn Tower (under construction)
Fiduciary Real Estate Development
74 units/44 sold
Price range = $750,000 to $2.2 million

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/owhomes/img/sep04/harborbig0926.jpg

^ The first phase of the Harbor Front condos under construction along the banks of the Milwaukee River in the Third Ward, near the former Chicago & Northwestern railroad swing bridge.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/owhomes/img/sep04/condobig0926.jpg

^ The Harbor Front condos as seen from E. Erie Street.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/owhomes/img/sep04/waterfrontbig0926.jpg

^ The Waterfront Condominiums, RiverWalk, and boat piers along the Milwaukee River in Walker's Point. They were developed in 2002, along S. Water Street.

Read the article from the Journal Sentinel for more info: Quantity a quandary for downtown condos - With more units for sale, buyers likely to demand higher quality (http://www.jsonline.com/homes/buy/sep04/261200.asp)

***

Groundbreaking for University Club Tower (right next door to Kilbourn Tower, already under construction) will happen this Monday, September 27. The Journal Sentinel has a brief article describing these two towers, and who can afford to live in them: High-rises at Kilbourn share high prices (http://www.jsonline.com/homes/buy/sep04/261202.asp)

as a Chicagoan who believes he knows Milwaukee pretty well and has a real sense of the place, here's an observation (based on what is listed here and things I've seen myself):

Milwaukee is one of the most successful cities of its size in attracting people downtown to live.

There is probably a secret that we know in the Chgo-Milw neighborhood: few things can make a downtown area a great place as a Great Lake....especially if you keep that lakefront open and accessible to people.

And nobody does that better than Chicago and Milwaukee.

People on the coasts don't always get it. The ocean is wonderful, but you don't build cities directly on it. You can't. You need some degree of sheltering from it. No major American city's downtown looks directly out to the Atlantic, unbuffered from it. Boston comes close, but lots of islands form a barrier. On the west coast, the same is true: LA's downtown is miles inland, SF's on a bay.

But Chicago and Milwaukee look out on endless open water, not only beautiful but practical for recreation as well.

I've said it before. I think what Milwaukee has as a wonderful base in architecture, what it is developing, and the importance of th Chgo-Milw corridor will pay great dividends. I think downtown Milw will be the place to live within ten years from now.

PS....I just read the two JS articles. It's amazing to have buildings that START at $1.2 million. My guess is that there are few (if any) cities comparable to Milwaukee that have such structures downtown. Does anyone know if that is right? I'd be curious if downtown Mpls has buildings that start at those kinds of prices. Outside of that, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't find that kind of structure in other midwestern cities (KC, StL, Indy, Det, Clev, Cin). Again...any info on this??????

Call God. Maybe he'll do you a favor.



hey CG5! What's up old friend? :)

Well, since you asked, I spent the day walking around the near south side (Bayview, 5th Ward, etc.) with my handy dandy digital camera, and there's a new Milwaukee pics thread up over at SSP. Here be the link:

http://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55436

This was actually my first trip to St. Jo's...I always knew it was impressive, but WOW. That's somethin' else to see in person. Also, if you ever need a good cup of Chai, check out the Hi-Fi cafe in Bayview...I didn't get quite that far south today, but I was there last night with a friend. They even give away free Eclipse mints with their chai! Take THAT, Starbucks.

Teweles looks to be coming along nicely...I had no idea how much they were going to be adding onto it, but it looks pretty substantial. I also saw The Waterfront, which I believe was completed recently...not sure on that though. At any rate, it looks nice. A little bland, but that seems to be the style in the Third Ward now...safe. Very very very safe. I don't know whether that's a good thing or bad. I suppose it's better than International Style glass boxes or trashy contemporary "cutting edge" architecture. Yet it seems like the old buildings aren't being done justice with all of these 2D cut-and-paste condo buildings going up all around them.

Also--if you get adventurous and climb onto the elevated train tracks in the 5th Ward, make it a point not to get hit by an Amtrak trains...I almost learned that the hard way today.

Btw, edsg25, that's an interesting point you raise...I'd never really thought about it.

I've said it before. I think what Milwaukee has as a wonderful base in architecture, what it is developing, and the importance of th Chgo-Milw corridor will pay great dividends. I think downtown Milw will be the place to live within ten years from now.
You're right about your observations and all those things you mention is why I voted Milwaukee as haveing the most potential in that other thread. :)

In both Milwaukee and Chicago the lake is very accessible and even though Chicago is going through an almost unbelievable boom in downtown population, Milwaukee since the mid 90s has been attacting people and is in a type of boom itself. Not as much as Chicago but you nailed it on the head when you said Milwaukee "for it's size" is being successful in attracting these folks. Plus Markitects list of condos either underconstruction or in the works is just apart of the evidence of this. Good job Markitect!

PS....I just read the two JS articles. It's amazing to have buildings that START at $1.2 million. My guess is that there are few (if any) cities comparable to Milwaukee that have such structures downtown. Does anyone know if that is right? I'd be curious if downtown Mpls has buildings that start at those kinds of prices. Outside of that, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't find that kind of structure in other midwestern cities (KC, StL, Indy, Det, Clev, Cin). Again...any info on this??????
I don't know about those other cities either but Minneapolis is starting to go through a boom itself it seems by reading some of the threads here. I'm not sure what the price range is on any of them but I know some of the projects are some pretty big ones.

I saw an article about Kilbourn Tower that said a small percentage of the buyers bought units as second or third home owners! Can you imagine buying a third home for 750,000 dollars? I can't imagine buying one for $250,000.

Also the article stated that some of these buyers, a small percentage were out of staters and they mentioned buyers from Denver, Miami, Los Angelos, New York, Houston, and other places but also said all the buyers have a certain amount of connection, more or less, with the city of Milwaukee. Of course that would go without saying.

Very entertaining CG5, thanks for sharing that over here!

Hey did you know there's an observation deck in the Allen-Bradley clock tower? I have no idea if it's open to the public but I have seen some pics of the downtown from it.

Unfortunately, the observation deck in the A-B Clocktower is not open to the public. They hold special events there every once in a while, so if you can score some tickets or whatever to one of those, then you can get inside to see it.

Hey CG5, execllent pics! You should post them here too!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/suburbanmonkey50/MKE%20-%20Near%20South%20Side/tn_P9250015.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/suburbanmonkey50/MKE%20-%20Near%20South%20Side/tn_P9250016.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/suburbanmonkey50/MKE%20-%20Near%20South%20Side/tn_P9250018.jpg


I've always just wanted to walk around that area taking pics from the tracks and other of those kinda unusual vantage points... You're so lucky you were able to. Last time I tried that with one of my photographer friends, I had the cops called on me because someone reported "gang activity" :mad2:

LOL!!!!!!!! I was more worried about almost getting hit by a train. And it almost happened, as I said above.

EDIT: Ok, I took your advice and posted them over here as well. Here's the link if you're the SSC-centric type. ;)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=137703

Is Milwaukee heaven? :?





:D

Soil conditions prevent any high-rises from being built in the Menomonee River Valley, since the Valley was a giant marsh filled in with dirt, rocks, coal cinders, garbage, wood, brush, and whatever else is burried there.

In order for a closer view of the skyline from the stadium, the stadium should have been built in Downtown. That would be cool.
Yeah, I always wondered why they put the new ballpark so far from downtown, it woulda been sooooooo much better to put it downtown.

But nevertheless, remember . . . Battery Park City is built on landfill. So there's hope for the Menomonee River Valley yet. ;)

Yeah, I always wondered why they put the new ballpark so far from downtown, it woulda been sooooooo much better to put it downtown.

We have Bud Selig to thank for that giant mistake. He didn't want it Downtown. He wanted it next to the old stadium, so he could have better control over the land (i.e. parking revenue).

But nevertheless, remember . . . Battery Park City is built on landfill. So there's hope for the Menomonee River Valley yet. ;)

Yes, it was built on landfill--but the land beneath it probably wasn't a marsh and there's solid ground beneath all of that fill. That's the key difference. Sorry to say, you can't just build skyscrapers anywhere. Besides, there are better places in Milwaukee to build high-rises, where it makes more economic sense than in the Valley (even if it had suitable ground conditions).

The Valley is one of the only places in Milwaukee where there are large, relatively inexpensive parcels of land available, immediately adjacent to the freeway system and railroads, and right in between two neighborhoods with the highest amount of unemployment in the state. That is why the focus of future development throughout most of the Valley is on light industrial and business/office uses.

You may be forgetting something here. While Lambeau and Camp Randall may have (a few) rivals for tailgating, Miller Park has no peer in baseball. Try that downtown.

Meanwhile, Milwaukee is not a mass transit oriented city. No rapid transit lines at all. Do you really WANT all those folks driving downtown during a business day?

Considering Milwaukee grew up along an extensive rail transit system, Milwaukee most certainly is mass transit oriented--the only problem is reinstalling that system which was torn up 50-60-odd years ago. A downtown stadium would have been an excellent catalyst to get such a system built again. And let's not forget about buses, although they're not "rapid transit," they are most certainly a form of mass transit; and they offer extensive coverage throughout the city and nearer suburbs at that.

Also, in absence of a rail system, a downtown stadium would have still been easily accessible via freeway for anyone who'd want to drive there. As it is they're already driving on the freeways on business days to get to/from the stadium, so that point is moot.

As for tailgating, I'm not convinced an opportunity for creating a great urban place really should have been sacrificed just so people could sit around and grill out.

But Markitect, the Brewers are in a small market city, some say it's the smallest, where they do need that extra revenue. When it comes to the brewers staying in Milwaukee the old phrase "every penny counts" means more to them then perhaps any other team.

Cubs-Brewers: I'll ignore the obvious; nobody enjoys having the big city fans overrun its near-by neighbor's park, turning an away game into a virtual home game.

That said, do the Brewers have a money maker in the Cubs at Miller Park that sets them apart financially from other small market cities?

In other words, do the Cubs really do add a lot to keeping the franchise afloat?

(PS...I'd love to see Cubs-Brewers join the category of Cubs-Cardinals and Cubs-White Sox.)

Cubs-Brewers: I'll ignore the obvious; nobody enjoys having the big city fans overrun its near-by neighbor's park, turning an away game into a virtual home game.
I don't know about that...Sharptent and I saw a Cubs game at Miller Park and I being a Brewers fan and him being a Cubs fan we both ended up haveing a great time. I'd say the crowd was evenly split 50/50 and everyone behaved themselves. I really didn't see any draw backs from haveing so many cubs fans there...they added to the atmosphere.


That said, do the Brewers have a money maker in the Cubs at Miller Park that sets them apart financially from other small market cities?
In other words, do the Cubs really do add a lot to keeping the franchise afloat?
Definately a money maker and it's a fact that the Cub fans helped the team go over the 2,000,000 mark this year. I wouldn't go so far to say that of the 10 Cubs/Brewers games this season played at Miller park, all sell outs, is what's keeping the team afloat. It's helping though...thanks for your support!


(PS...I'd love to see Cubs-Brewers join the category of Cubs-Cardinals and Cubs-White Sox.)
Wait until the brewers field a winning team and then watch out! I remember telling you this before.

Is Milwaukee heaven? :?





:D
Just a small slice


A little bigger slice is Seattle :)

Wait until the brewers field a winning team and then watch out! I remember telling you this before.


Personally I'm waiting for MLB to help make it happen. The sport should be ashamed of itself for the way it strong armed cities like Milwaukee to spend those millions to build a new stadium and yet continue to tie the hands of smaller markets to compete effectively.

For smaller cities, Milw and Pgh had the misfortune to get new parks at a time when their teams were not doing well (as was Detroit as a bigger city). As a result, they did not get the bounce that Balt, Clev, SF, etc., received with more contending teams openning a new park.

The parks are great, but they won't solve baseball's problems. I agree with you....a healthy Brewer franchise will be great for Milw, and hence great for Cub fans, too.....as i said, should be a great rivalry. Milw is a lot closer and part of the Chgo scene than is StL, and the Cub-Sox rivalry in interleague which severely limits its on-the-field influence.

The parks are great, but they won't solve baseball's problems. I agree with you....a healthy Brewer franchise will be great for Milw, and hence great for Cub fans, too.....as i said, should be a great rivalry. Milw is a lot closer and part of the Chgo scene than is StL, and the Cub-Sox rivalry in interleague which severely limits its on-the-field influence.
Actualy for the Cub fans that make the trip to Miller Park to watch their beloved Cubs wont think it's such a good idea for the brewers to get any better because when the brewers do get better more and more Brewer fans will want to attend more games which in turn will leave less tickets available for them.

Foggy day in Brew City
http://www.boomspeed.com/paule17/184555547AvdVGs_ph.jpg

http://www.boomspeed.com/paule17/112514206GvAonz_ph.jpg

Watch the SSC banner this coming week. :)

Watch the SSC banner this coming week. :)



haha...what did you pull off this time?

Well you know me...I have superpowers. ;)

Surely there must be some bad news to go along with all the recent good news about Milwaukee development...?

Pabst Brewing has filed a lawsuit against developers of PabstCity for trademark infringement--a $250,000 payment or a court orrder to prohibit the Pabst name from being used with the project. In the past, developers had been working with the brewing company on a licensing agreement ($250,000 to use the name for 25 years, plus $100,000 for each 10-year period renewed after that, plus 5% of sales from items bearing the Pabst name or logo), but says the developers have not yet signed the agreement...all the while still using the Pabst name to market the project.

This is in addition to the developers scrambling around trying to come up with funding for the project so their development proposal can be approved.

Read more in the Journal Sentinel article: Pabst sues developers over use of name - Brewer wants $250,000 from creators of planned PabstCity project (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/sep04/263125.asp)

***

In other news, construction of the new Sheraton hotel across from the convention center was to begin Thursday, only to be delayed after some environmental contamination was found on the site. The construction company must now conduct further investigation and write a clean-up plan to be approved by the DNR.

Here's the Journal Sentinel article: Hotel project is delayed for environmental cleanup (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/sep04/263115.asp)

Wow CG5 made a good topic if it can run for 68 pages!

Good news and bad news from Markitect. :) F that hideous hotel. I'm done pretending that "better than nothing" is acceptable. That building is ass.

(And yes, I am aware that so far we have only seen preliminary designs for the hotel, really only slightly past massing studies. But let's get serious--it's not going to change that much.)

wasn' the UTC suposed to break ground on tuesday? I haven't heards anyhting...

UCT broke ground on Monday.

^ mark, have they really broken ground on that one? have they started foundation excavation?

if so, someone should let skyscrapers.com know so that its status can be changed to "under construction".

i know a lot of you don't like UCT's placement, but i'm still excited to see milwaukee get a new 3rd tallest in the skyline.

^ mark, have they really broken ground on that one? have they started foundation excavation?


UCT broke ground on Monday.

wasn' the UTC suposed to break ground on tuesday? I haven't heards anyhting...

wow...that post...wow.

[makes triumphant return to the WAM thread]
Wow, i haven't posted in this thread in ages. Anyways, i just wanted to let you all know about my Milwaukee thread in the Cityscapes and Skylines forum, right here (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=139424). That is the SSC version, but as usual i have crossposted it at SSP as well. Check it out, its of the beerline and other stuff!

Sorry CG5, it is kind of a copycat thread of yours from a few weeks ago, but i think the pictures are good

[makes triumphant return to the WAM thread]
Wow, i haven't posted in this thread in ages. Anyways, i just wanted to let you all know about my Milwaukee thread in the Cityscapes and Skylines forum, right here (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=139424). That is the SSC version, but as usual i have crossposted it at SSP as well. Check it out, its of the beerline and other stuff!

Triumphant indeed! One of the best photo threads on Milwaukee...ever.

Watch the SSC banner this coming week. :)

Well, lookie here:
http://skyscrapercity.com/images/forumheaders/7.jpg

sweet banner.

haha. You're good.


You know Erik Sperling CG5?

The name sounds very vaguely familiar...why?

The name sounds very vaguely familiar...why?


goes to uwm...Junoir i think. One of my "friends." Just curious.

Nobody's posted here in several days, so I thought I'd drop this here useless comment just for the heck of it. :)

The Redevelopment Authority approved a redevelopment plan for the proposed Harley-Davidson Museum on Thursday. The plan outlines general guidelines for the project, and must still be approved by the Common Council.

However, there are still concerns about site design, namely public access issues to the new streets and riverwalk that will be built as part of the museum complex. The expansive surface parking lots on all four corners of the prominant intersection at 6th and W. Canal Streets is also a major concern.

See the Journal Sentinel for the short article: Agency approves plan for Harley museum - Site gets OK despite concerns about public access to riverfront (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/oct04/266742.asp)

Nobody's posted here in several days, so I thought I'd drop this here useless comment just for the heck of it. :)

Well there's just a little lull in things to talk about lately. Are you into film festivals? Milwaukee is holding it's second annual international film festival starting Oct. 21st and running to Oct 31st.

http://www.jsonline.com/onwisconsin/movies/oct04/266637.asp

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/owlive/img/oct04/filmfest_101504_big.jpg

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/owlive/img/oct04/theater_101504_big.jpg

I'm going to try to see The Renaissance, a doc by the American Movie guy. It's about the renovation of the Renaissance Building in the Third Ward. Sounds interesting, no?

I'm going to try to see The Renaissance, a doc by the American Movie guy. It's about the renovation of the Renaissance Building in the Third Ward. Sounds interesting, no?


That fat guy or the crackhead-looking guy? Either way, that sounds cool.



On a side note, I'm going to amsterdam, NE for a few weeks so I probably won't be around here. (not that i come on here that much anymore)

I'm going to try to see The Renaissance, a doc by the American Movie guy. It's about the renovation of the Renaissance Building in the Third Ward. Sounds interesting, no?

Yeah, when you mentioned that it did sort of sound interesting. when is it playing?

Hey everyone, I've been followig this thread since I've been back in school, around the last month or so. I've caught up on most of the information in it. I believe Milwaukee is going is going great places, and I plan on living here after I graduate for sure.

Question though:
Has everyone checked out the catalyctic projects listed on the city of milwaukee website. They have a list of their plans for current and future projects...check it out at http://www.mkedcd.org/ if you haven't...good stuff.

Also, how does everyone feel about the rebuilding of the interchange downtown? Huge project...I didn't realize the size of it until I checked out their website [http://www.mchange.org/] Was the park east corridor project associated with that?

Question though:
Has everyone checked out the catalyctic projects listed on the city of milwaukee website. They have a list of their plans for current and future projects...check it out at http://www.mkedcd.org/ if you haven't...good stuff.

Yes, those are from the 1999 Downtown Plan. They are projects identified as essential for boosting development and improving the overall downtown area. Since the plan was written, most of those catalytic projects have become a reality/are in progress, or currently proposed, or currently under study.

Also, how does everyone feel about the rebuilding of the interchange downtown? Huge project...I didn't realize the size of it until I checked out their website [http://www.mchange.org/] Was the park east corridor project associated with that?

No, the Park East corridor project was not associated with the rebuilding of the Marquette Interchange.

the interchange website is nicely done. there are some cool things to check out and play with on their. kinda makes you feel at ease...

Hey Eastsider, welcome to the forum. thanks for posting the links. I haven't browsed the Milwaukee City Development site in a while, nor had i seen the new website for the Marquette Interchange.

DJ cody,

Why does it make you feel at ease? Do you not like the project?

Also I apologize but I posted the wrong website in the last posting, try this one out. Look under Catalytic Projects for updated information on the projects...interesting stuff. (make sure not to click on catalyctic projects, but click on the projects themselves...)http://www.mkedcd.org/downtownplan/

How does everyone feel about the design for the project going next to Calatrava's Art Museum? Anyone think Calatrava is the next Gehry, in the negative sense, people are beginning to get sick of his work fast...even though it is brilliant.

Thanks for the link EastSider, those plans are awesome, and I really like the Wisconsin Ave, Riverwalk, and City Hall plans.

Are all these plans still in development, or where are they? I would love to know. Thanks! :D :D :D

Eastsider,

The website makes me feel at ease, because usually road construction doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally for the project. I just wanted to comment on a nicely done website. :2cents:

Thanks for the link EastSider, those plans are awesome, and I really like the Wisconsin Ave, Riverwalk, and City Hall plans.

Are all these plans still in development, or where are they? I would love to know. Thanks! :D :D :D

Those projects that aren't already completed or in progress are still planned. Just look at the list of projects and look around at what's been done/is going on. Also keep in mind that all of the drawings, renderings, and such you see in the Plan are purely hypothetical and conceptual--they are merely "suggestions" of how things could look, and are not supposed to represent the things that are actually getting built...because the stuff that's actually getting built wasn't designed when the Plan was being written.

Category I Catalytic Projects

Wisconsin Avenue Revitalization: partially completed/in progress
Historic Third Ward Public Market: in progress
Park East Redevelopment Project: in progress
Transit Connector: under study
Park Once: no progress
RiverWalk: partially completed/in progress
Lake Front Connections: partially complleted/in progress
Two-Way Streets: partially completed
West Kilbourn Avenue Streetscape Improvements: no progress yet
City Hall Square Intersection: no progress yet, but the streets/sidewalks around City Hall will be replaced in the next couple of years

Category II Contingency Catalytic Projects

Pabst Brewery Adaptive Reuse Complex: proposed
Train Station/Post Office Mixed Use Project: no progress
MacArthur Square: no progress

"Two-Way Streets: partially completed"

Just wondering, what streets, if any, have been converted from 1 way to 2 way downtown? I haven't really driven in Milwaukee since last December, so i haven't really paid attention to any changes in in street direction.

I think state st. used to be one-way and now it's two-way. or the other way around. Either way, it was one way or two way. No way!

"Two-Way Streets: partially completed"

Just wondering, what streets, if any, have been converted from 1 way to 2 way downtown? I haven't really driven in Milwaukee since last December, so i haven't really paid attention to any changes in in street direction.

Quite a few over the past several years.

Segments of Wells and State Streets changed over this past summer, just west of Downtown. I think a few blocks on their eastern ends were converted within the last year or so as well.

Others from a while ago...segments of Milwaukee, Van Buren, Knapp, 4th, 5th, 8th, and Broadway.

Thanks for clearing that up Markitect, I was wondering about that. Whats the incentive of converting a one-way street into a two-way, other than the simplicity for driving?

The major benefit of converting one-ways to two-ways is traffic calming. Multi-lane one-ways like we have in Milwaukee essentially function as surface level freeways, funnelling cars into and out of Downtown as fast as possible, where cars zip by at relatively high speeds (usually much higher than the posted speed limit), which can be dangerous for cross traffic and especially pedestrians. With two-way streets, traffic tends to travel slower (at the very least, closer to the posted speed limit), making for a safer environment for drivers and pedestrians.

Of course, two-way streets also have the benefit of easier navigation through the city, as drivers don't have to travel a maze of streets and double-backing to get to their destinations--they allow access to uses along the street from both directions.

@M2M: This Friday night.

Kilbourn Tower on 30th floor. looking good...

Ho ho! I forgot to advertise here. This past week I went on two photo-taking expeditions...one on the East Side to catch some fall colors, and one in RiverWest. You can find the East Side thread (new KT construction pics...one of the facade being raised by the crane) HERE (http://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=58343) and the RiverWest thread HERE (http://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58567).

:)

Ho ho! I forgot to advertise here. This past week I went on two photo-taking expeditions...one on the East Side to catch some fall colors, and one in RiverWest. You can find the East Side thread (new KT construction pics...one of the facade being raised by the crane) HERE (http://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=58343) and the RiverWest thread HERE (http://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58567).

:)

Yep, typical fall weather but I love how you make it look so interesting CG5. That song in the second thread fits the mood perfectly yet I don't believe I will be running out to pick the soundtrack up anytime soon, sorry.

I notice that all of your latest threads has at least one good pic of the Milwaukee river. They show that Milwaukee has more natural beauty other than the big lake. Keep showing them because I never knew how nice it was down by the river other than in downtown.

I've come to look forward to any new thread you put together. Every pic seems to tell a story, it's almost like reading a book.

The first building project to go up in the Park East project has come to completion!

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/oct04/271310.asp

Whitney Gould says "As the first new building to go up in the empty Park East Freeway corridor, the Milwaukee School of Engineering's $31 million Kern Center sends a heartening signal that in renewing itself, this old industrial city might finally be looking forward rather than still trying to imitate the past."

I say that although I agree with her on the many points she makes about the design of the building I must say that for her to characterize this building as being a pivital point in the cities quest to look forward instead of imitating the past is rather ignorant. Hasn't she looked at the designs of the Kilbourn and University Club Towers? Plus if she means to suggest that 1522 On The Lake and Cathedral Place is some how imitating the past I have to presume that she just hasn't done her homework. I believe the MAM addition was the pivit on Milwaukees coming of age chart in architectural design, not this new MSE building. With that said, I think she's right on about her thoughts on this building. :)

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/oct04/kern103104.jpg

Whitney Gould says "As the first new building to go up in the empty Park East Freeway corridor, the Milwaukee School of Engineering's $31 million Kern Center sends a heartening signal that in renewing itself, this old industrial city might finally be looking forward rather than still trying to imitate the past."

I say that although I agree with her on the many points she makes about the design of the building I must say that for her to characterize this building as being a pivital point in the cities quest to look forward instead of imitating the past is rather ignorant. Hasn't she looked at the designs of the Kilbourn and University Club Towers? Plus if she means to suggest that 1522 On The Lake and Cathedral Place is some how imitating the past I have to presume that she just hasn't done her homework. I believe the MAM addition was the pivit on Milwaukees coming of age chart in architectural design, not this new MSE building. With that said, I think she's right on about her thoughts on this building.

I think you have misunderstood Whitney's point. She is not saying the Kern Center is the first example of forward-looking architecture in the city. She doesn't even describe it as being "pivotal." Nor is she downplaying other examples of good modern architecture that are already built or under construction here. Rather, what she's saying is that MSOE and the architects could have easily gone with some uninspired boxy-looking building with fake-historic ornamentation pasted on, but they decided to push the envelope and came up with a great design for the Kern Center in a style of its own time. It's simply the latest in a line of recent projects (like the others you mentioned) that have been designed in that manner. More of such forward-looking designs means just what she says--that the city is finally looking forward rather than trying to imitate the past.

And don't kid yourself--for every forward-looking MAM addition, Kilbourn Tower, or Kern Center going up, there are still plenty more cutesy, fake-historic-imitations getting built across the city.

I've said it before. I'll say it again:

Kuddos to Milwaukee for continuing to make an exciting new urban environment downtown and surrounding lakefront and inland neighborhoods. Personally I've always thought Milwaukee was one of the most underrated cities in the country (and, as a Chicagoan, I should know Milwaukee). Of the other US Great Lakes cities, only Chicago and Milwaukee know how to really make a lakefront beautiful....and how to put it to the right use.

I love with you've done along the riverfront downtown and how you have put to use all those great old lofts in the Third Ward. Charming buildings and, unlike River North in Chicago, set off from the rest of the downtown area to keep cross traffic out and make for a more intimate setting.

I, for one, am grateful we have Milwaukee close by. Chicago, of course, is a fantastic city, but with all the new development, it has become more and more difficult to negotiate....traffic, parking, crowds.

Milwaukee offers a more comfortable, laid back,urban alternative.

Chicago, of course, is a fantastic city, but with all the new development, it has become more and more difficult to negotiate....traffic, parking, crowds.


there's a very easy solution for the first two points, ditch the car and hop on the train. as for crowds, well, all cities should yearn to have crowds; that's what makes the great cities so successful.

Neph - thanks. That's one of the most encouraging comments I've ever recieved re: my photo threads...response is often v e r y slow, which is disappointing after spending anywhere from four hours to seven (for the RiverWest thread, what with all the editing and the soundtrack, etc.) That is, of course, including the time I spend running around actually taking the pics. :) You gotta love this city.

As for future threads, if it ever stops raining and I find the time, I'd really love to do a tour of the Washington Park area...several interesting hoods over there. Avenues West would be fun (Tripoli Shrine, Eagles Ballroom, etc.). I also really want to get down to the Jackson Park neighborhood. I've actually never been there before, but I've found several interesting buildings online recently that are all in the area. Triangle, Humboldt Park, Mitchell Park, Burnham Park...so many neighborhoods, so little time! I'll be sure to post links here when I do new photo threads.

*Btw* I was wondering if anyone here can speak of the relative safety of the areas I've mentioned. I know that the Triangle area is a bit run down, and I've been told to be careful in Avenues West...not that my camera is even capable of night shots, so I'll be there in the day anyway. But as for Washington Park, Jackson Park, etc., I'm uninformed as to whether or not walking around with a camera would be a bad idea. Most places are relatively safe in the day, but there are parts of the city I wouldn't go near even with a car...which I don't have.

As for the Kern Center, I really have to admit, after much contemplation and passing the building about a hundred times as it was u/c...I really love it. The back side leaves a bit to be desired, but that will be covered up in time, so no worries there. The sweeping glass wall facing northeast, however, is positively jewel-like. And it looks awesome at night. The Park East Corridor is headed in the right direction! Let's hope it stays the course.

there's a very easy solution for the first two points, ditch the car and hop on the train. as for crowds, well, all cities should yearn to have crowds; that's what makes the great cities so successful.

sharptent, i don't disagree. my point, more than anything else, milwaukee, as a big city, can be a more relaxing and accessible urban experience than chicago, as a huge city.

milwaukee cannot and will not have all of chicago's attractions, but it does have an ability to offer a less hectic day on the town than chicago. and i see that as being an asset for the city.

Neph - thanks. That's one of the most encouraging comments I've ever recieved re: my photo threads.
Anything I can do to get you out and take more photos of Milwaukee I will do.
Just kidding, no really I love your threads! :)


As for the Kern Center, I really have to admit, after much contemplation and passing the building about a hundred times as it was u/c...I really love it. The back side leaves a bit to be desired, but that will be covered up in time, so no worries there. The sweeping glass wall facing northeast, however, is positively jewel-like. And it looks awesome at night. The Park East Corridor is headed in the right direction! Let's hope it stays the course.

It is a nice building and well placed. However I agree, the back side isn't too desirable.

No replies to my third paragraph? Hm...

CG5,
It's all about your attitude. If you walk around expecting to get into trouble and look over you're shoulder every three seconds, mopes will pick up on that and you're going to get into trouble.

I've only had trouble taking pictures in the washington park area once, and only because I was with the wrong 'set' of people when photographing another 'set', if you get my drift.

There are some areas I would not recommend you walk around and take pictures in, unless its a bright sunday morning. The area bounded by North and Vliet, 35th to 15th for example, is one place you do not want to be poking around unless you are confident of yourself and your inconspicuousness, if you know what I mean. But I've never had a problem taking pictures in these areas.

I would generally recommend you not take pictures of private residences in the aformentioned area, though.


Walker Park to Rogers Park is safe enough. Jackson park is way safe.

Cheers,
Jai

Has it ever been proposed to have a ferry between Chicago and Milwaukee? Personally I think it would be really cool to have one dock at the new Pier Wisconsin building in Milwaukee and dock in Chicago at Navy Pier. Also I had another question, potentially a foolish one. Does downtown Milwaukee's location on old swampland prohibit it from getting tall skyscrapers (1,000ft+). I know Milwaukee wont get one due to the economy, however i am just curious to know if this is possible in the future. Thanks

No replies to my third paragraph? Hm...
DG5 you know I don't live in the Milwaukee area so I'm not the one to reply to it. I just don't know alot about the neighborhoods. When I'm in Milwaukee I'm usually in West Allis or downtown. Very seldom do I travel around the city. I have but not much and that's another reason why I appreceate your threads so.

PabstCity developers may be downsizing their $395 million plan to redevelop the vacant brewery complex in order to gain City approval for tax increment financing (TIF) that would help cover the cost of the project. In a TIF, a municipality borrows funds to pay for public improvements and infrastructure installation, such as sewer or water, or to pay for the environmental cleanup of the site. A municipality then uses the increase in property taxes to pay off the debt.

Earlier this year, developers were going to request a $75 million TIF for PabstCity, but were met with opposition from Mayor Barrett and some Common Council members over such a high subsidy. Also at issue was the questionable use of that TIF money--developers wanted to use nearly $39 million of it to build three large parking structures for the project.

No specific details of the project's scale-backs have were reported, but they likely include a downsizing the parking component.

Meanwhile, developers are still facing issues of acquiring financing from other sources, the lawsuit with Pabst Brewing Company for trademark infringement, and another legal battle between the different groups of developers working on the project (a "little guy developer" versus "the "big-guy" corporate developers).

Here's the article from the Business Journal: PabstCity project likely to shrink (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2004/11/01/story3.html)

***

This past Wednesday, the Common Counci approved redevelopment plans for the propoesed Harley-Davidson museum site at 6th and W. Canal Streets. The plan sets guidelines for the redevelopment project. In conjunction with the plan, the Common Council also approved to sell the city-owned land to Harley, and approved $7 million to help finance construction of the project.

The first phase of the project, whcih Harley hopes to have complete by 2008, will include the museum, a restaurant, banquet space, and meeting rooms.

Here's the article from the Journal Sentinel: Council OKs plan for Harley museum site (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/nov04/272122.asp)

Has it ever been proposed to have a ferry between Chicago and Milwaukee? Personally I think it would be really cool to have one dock at the new Pier Wisconsin building in Milwaukee and dock in Chicago at Navy Pier.

If you go back in history, Milwaukee and Chicago were indeed linked by steamships and such. As far as recent years, yes, there have been more modern ferry proposals to link Milwaukee and Chicago, but nobody's ever been able to come up with the money.

Also I had another question, potentially a foolish one. Does downtown Milwaukee's location on old swampland prohibit it from getting tall skyscrapers (1,000ft+). I know Milwaukee wont get one due to the economy, however i am just curious to know if this is possible in the future. Thanks

At the very least, the old swampland on which Downtown Milwaukee was built would make it extremely expensive for such tall buildings to be built--if not completely impossible.

Chgo-Milw ferry service:

can you imagine the $$$$ a service like this could make during Taste of Chicago and Summerfest? Both cities have a lot going on downtown during the summer and a ferry service could prove to be profitable.

Also I had another question, potentially a foolish one. Does downtown Milwaukee's location on old swampland prohibit it from getting tall skyscrapers (1,000ft+). I know Milwaukee wont get one due to the economy, however i am just curious to know if this is possible in the future. Thanks

downtown chicago was also built on a marsh and that fact doen't seem to have stunted chicago's growth too much, considering it's one of the tallest skylines on the planet ;)

Personally I dont like bringing the car to Chicago because of the god forsaken traffic and parking fees. It would also benefit Chicagoians(sorry) who are going to Summerfest, because that also has horrible parking conditions. I would pay the extra cash, and spend the extra time, to get to Navy Pier that easily.

Take Greyhound. $23 round trip.


New photo thread over at SSP. Jackson Park and sunset from the mcKinley Marina. Yay.

http://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=1007048#post1007048

Great pics, especially the last of them. A personal favorite photography spot. Im kinda new to this site and am curious on how to post pics, can someone help me. Thanks :)

Markitect, do you have any renderings or information on that new Brady Street Bridge?

http://www.bloomconsultants.com/images/BradyRendering.jpg

^ Here is a rendering of the new Brady Stret Footbridge which crosses Lincoln Memorial Drive. The old bridge had staricases, which limited access. This new bridge, now under construction, will have ramps to allow access for wheelchairs, cyclists, rollerbladers, etc.

It looks cool Markitect. I really like how the lakefront has these cool white structures (Calatrava,U.S. Bank,Cudahy tower,University Club, this bridge...
personally it makes Milwaukee look more vibrant and appealing in my mind.

I know I am going to get ALOT of disagreement on this, but I am extremely upset about whats happening to Mark Beling. I know the majority of this forum hates him, and are liberals. I respect that, he can be loud and obnoxious. However, he says one word "*******, and he's getting suspended, perhaps kicked off permanently. First off, I know this is racial, so he screwed up. However, *******, from what I read from some Latinos, is used BY Latinos in the American Southwest to describe illegal immigrants. Yes, he should be suspended, but kicked off for ONE WORD. Is this how sick this country is becoming? A white male says one word against a "minority" (i always viewed the city to be equal, looking at percentages) and his whole life is screwed. However, Chris Rock, George Lopez, and many,many,many,many other minority people can just call white people whatever the hell they want and not only do they get away with it, but its FUNNY... I dont think anything about this is funny...I have listened to Mark since I was a kid. Yes, like I said, he can be annoying, hard to talk to, and sometimes..an ass. The fact of the matter is though, he is a voice of truth and light in the SICKLY overly liberal city. Cmon guys, look at the bullshit in Milwaukee. I know you guys hate republicans, but the democrats are just sickning in Milwaukee-almost to the point I want out.

Cmon, look at what Marvin Pratts and Gwen Moores kids did. They slashed up the tires of a republican van. This cost some thousands of dollars I believe. Did the journal give a shit..No..like usual. This city is corrupt, im sorry to say, you may not believe me, but it is. Mark was right about illegal immigrants voting, cmon you have to see this. Im sorry but if you overlook this as conservative banter..you are a fool. We all know that Mark says the stuff the journal wont say, thats why I like him. Thats why I like Sykes. This city is sickning......all i can say

First off, what's wrong with being liberal? And please explain how this city is "overly" liberal. (Yes, I'm a "liberal". GOD I hate that f**kin' term!)

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a conservative person, but I don't like how most of them want to impose their moral values on the rest of us.


Anyway, I DO hate Mark Belling. I have for several years. He's prejudice.

Here's a quote from Belling:

"I should not have said the term," he (Belling) said. "I should have used a different mean term."

Like what? "Spic"?

Belling is such an asshole

I know I am going to get ALOT of disagreement on this, but I am extremely upset about whats happening to Mark Beling. I know the majority of this forum hates him, and are liberals. I respect that, he can be loud and obnoxious. However, he says one word "*******, and he's getting suspended, perhaps kicked off permanently. First off, I know this is racial, so he screwed up. However, *******, from what I read from some Latinos, is used BY Latinos in the American Southwest to describe illegal immigrants. Yes, he should be suspended, but kicked off for ONE WORD. Is this how sick this country is becoming? A white male says one word against a "minority" (i always viewed the city to be equal, looking at percentages) and his whole life is screwed. However, Chris Rock, George Lopez, and many,many,many,many other minority people can just call white people whatever the hell they want and not only do they get away with it, but its FUNNY... I dont think anything about this is funny...I have listened to Mark since I was a kid. Yes, like I said, he can be annoying, hard to talk to, and sometimes..an ass. The fact of the matter is though, he is a voice of truth and light in the SICKLY overly liberal city. Cmon guys, look at the bullshit in Milwaukee. I know you guys hate republicans, but the democrats are just sickning in Milwaukee-almost to the point I want out.

It's a reflection of the power structure in America. Consider it a priviledge that, as a white, you can be called a name but not be offended because, at the end of the day, you still have it better than the other races (other than certain Asian Americans and Jews). But to get back on topic, many people hate republicans because they support fear, hatred, separatism, nationalism (come on, like God really prefers America--what a bunch of shit), and a perverse sense of morality grounded on nothing. Bush is an immoral man whose actions have lead to the death of tens of thousands of Iraqis, but I guess he's a moral person because he wants to preserve stem cells.

Sick. Now that is sick, my friend--much sicker than the "liberalism" of Milwaukee

Edited to delete

Edited to delete

Can't we keep this thread to Milwaukee information or debates, not politcally stand-point debates?

Can't we keep this thread to Milwaukee information or debates, not politcally stand-point debates?
Yes we can EastSider, you're right, these debates belong in the skybar.

NIMBY alert!?!

A possible condominium high-rise overlooking Lake Michigan is being considered for the South Shore community of St. Francis, an idea that already is stirring debate in an area known mainly for single-family homes.
The condo that could be apart of the plan will be 15 stories high.

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/nov04/274075.asp

Construction continues at The Residence at Parkshore along S. Lake Drive in St. Francis, where developers want to extend the development to possibly include high-rise condominiums.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/bym/img/nov04/tower111004.jpg

Where is that exactly?
It sounds like an interesting project

NIMBY alert!?!

A possible condominium high-rise overlooking Lake Michigan is being considered for the South Shore community of St. Francis, an idea that already is stirring debate in an area known mainly for single-family homes.
The condo that could be apart of the plan will be 15 stories high.

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/nov04/274075.asp

Construction continues at The Residence at Parkshore along S. Lake Drive in St. Francis, where developers want to extend the development to possibly include high-rise condominiums.


I live two blocks off the lake on Howard, i used to be able to see the lake from my living room window.... now, all i see are empty condos. all these buildings going up in st. francis are a complete joke, and every last person in my neighborhood that i talk to all agree that they should have left this part lake front alone...

Why are they a joke Jasen? Poor planning and development, or is occupancy going to be low on them?

I was looking for a rendering of ovation plaza [http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=24616&papass=&sort=1], and I remember talk about the development of it. I know its having trouble because of the lack of desire for class A office space, but why not make it a residential tower? The location seems ideal, on the water, downtown, near the new development of the corridor. Anyone have thoughts or information on that?

The City and developers have looked/are looking at Ovation Plaza being a mixed-use project (office/retail, housing, and parking).

Why are they a joke Jasen? Poor planning and development, or is occupancy going to be low on them?

look at the location! i chose to live in st. francis because of the pace, price, and location. it's a slower neighborhood, inexpensive, and just mere blocks from the lake. now that they're turning the area into the condominium-lifestyle, what's going to happen to my cost of living? or the fact that this area used to be open space where you could go to enjoy the lake. at either rate, the condo development doesn't fit in st. francis. it doesn't fit the style of the city, and it doesn't fit the economic class of the city.

yes, my appologies for making this political. It just really bothers me that we get most of our information from one point of view. Thats what sickens me. There is nothing wrong with liberal or conservative, only when one of the two forces their opinion on me. As for Beling(dont know if thats how you spell it), he screwed up, but hopefully he will be back on the air soon.

i feel that Milwaukee is changing, the style of the city is changing, the economic class is changing, everything that was what it was 5+ years ago is changing. I've noticed a huge difference in the four years i've lived here. Milwaukee is shedding its old shell and turning a new leaf (but keeping some of its old customs). I think people that want a quieter pace, and a lower cost of living, you should live in the suburbs. Don't keep Milwaukee from its destiny, which is a bustling metro that it is becoming.

What do you all think about the veterans trying to bring the U.S.S Des Moines to Milwaukee? I think the ship is too big and old and will not fit in with the lakefront. I think the Dennis Sullivan will fit in much better, especially at Pier Wisconsin. Personally, I would like to see them bring the U.S.S. Wisconsin instead, but that is a much bigger ship. I also believe it wouldnt be able to get into Milwaukee due to its size.

i feel that Milwaukee is changing, the style of the city is changing, the economic class is changing, everything that was what it was 5+ years ago is changing. I've noticed a huge difference in the four years i've lived here. Milwaukee is shedding its old shell and turning a new leaf (but keeping some of its old customs). I think people that want a quieter pace, and a lower cost of living, you should live in the suburbs. Don't keep Milwaukee from its destiny, which is a bustling metro that it is becoming.

Yeah, but what's getting my goat is the fact that i do live in the suburbs, St. Francis, and they're bringing all this condominium development out here. I don't mind Milwaukee becoming a modernized city, something it hasn't been for the past 20 years, but I'd rather have the slow pace, which is why I don't live in the city. They should consider that point of view before building all these condos in St. Francis...

Yeah, but what's getting my goat is the fact that i do live in the suburbs, St. Francis, and they're bringing all this condominium development out here. I don't mind Milwaukee becoming a modernized city, something it hasn't been for the past 20 years, but I'd rather have the slow pace, which is why I don't live in the city. They should consider that point of view before building all these condos in St. Francis...
I hear what your saying but that picture I posted from the JSonline site I think shows why the developers chose that site for their project. It has a great view of both the lake and the skyline so if this was a secret that St Francis was trying to keep from everyone, sorry to say, the cat is out of the bag!

Personally, I would like to see them bring the U.S.S. Wisconsin instead, but that is a much bigger ship. I also believe it wouldnt be able to get into Milwaukee due to its size.

That's true, the locks on the st. lawrence seaway, which allows access to the great lakes by ocean going vessels, have a maximum ship length of 740 ft. The battleship USS wisconsin is 887 ft long, so it is much to big to fit in the locks, and hence, it would never be able to get into the great lakes.

I pray they don't put any boat in such prime locations on the lake. It's bad enough they're building pier wisconsin next to the museum, adding a boat will cheapen the look even more.

I pray they don't put any boat in such prime locations on the lake. It's bad enough they're building pier wisconsin next to the museum, adding a boat will cheapen the look even more than pier wisconsin will.

To the contrary, the Pier Wisconsin Center is going to enhance the lakefront a great deal, not "cheapen" it. Before, public access to the lake on that site did not exist--it was a private site, essentially fenced in. The old corrugated metal buildings that were on the site were very utilitarian-looking. Even when the gates were open and people were alowed to walk the grounds there was always a feeling that you shouldn't be there, like you were tresspassing even though you weren't--that's just the kind of vibe the place gave off. The PWC will completely open up that site public access with a boardwalk and boat docks along the lake. The two buildings being built there (an aquarium and a science/technology museum), are open, glassy, modern, and infinitely better looking than the old buildings that were there.

To the contrary, the Pier Wisconsin Center is going to enhance the lakefront a great deal, not "cheapen" it. Before, public access to the lake on that site did not exist--it was a private site, essentially fenced in. The old corrugated metal buildings that were on the site were very utilitarian-looking. Even when the gates were open and people were alowed to walk the grounds there was always a feeling that you shouldn't be there, like you were tresspassing even though you weren't--that's just the kind of vibe the place gave off. The PWC will completely open up that site public access with a boardwalk and boat docks along the lake. The two buildings being built there (an aquarium and a science/technology museum), are open, glassy, modern, and infinitely better looking than the old buildings that were there.

I agree that Pier Wisconsin will look better than the area previously did. However, I don't like the design of the building, and wish we could get all the benefits you just listed, and put it into another building design.

What's wrong with the design for the Pier Wisconsin Center?

I think when looking at it more its not the design I don't enjoy, but put into context of the area around it, I feel like it could be more effective in a different location. I'm worried that the design, similar to the Monona Terrace in Madison, looks good in the rendering, but over a few years will age rapidly. The design isn't horrible, and I understand that another strong architectual statement next to the art museum wouldn't be very desirable either. I was just hoping for something a little different, to push the architecture on the lakefront even farther.

I still support the building, but I really don't want to see a boat docked next to it.

I've got a question for you here on Milwaukee perception. A while back, somebody posted a picture and/or post here about Kenosha, which made sense with its proximity to Milwaukee. But it did get me thinking.

From a Chicago perspective, I think, when you ask where is the that imaginary line that separates Milwaukee from Chicago, we wouldn't see it as the state line. Instead, it appears somewhere betwen Kenosha and Racine. I see Kenosha as pulled towards Chicago and Racine to Milwaukee. Lake County has pretty well spilled over the state line into Kenosha County. The outlet malls are there, of course, to reach both the Milw and Chgo makets, but are actually physically more tied to Lake Co than they are to Racine Co. Metra service to the Loop includes Kenosha. And Lk Geneva to the west is already a major Chgo link. Television in Kenosha comes from Chicago.

So, where does Milwaukee see this one: where do you draw the line? Is Racine in Milw's orbit and Kenosha in Chgo's or is Kenosha really more Milw oriented than Chgo?

I'm sure you folks saw the Minneapolis thread on this board about new residential construction. It shows how extensive it really is.

So here's another question for you: Milwaukee has been doing a nice job of attracting quality city living developments (Old Third Ward, Easttown, riverfront, and now in the path of the torn-down freeway).

1. Do you see this very positive trend to be a lot less than what is currently going on in Minneapolis or actually more similiar to it? (I'm thinking...a lot less)

2. Mpls has always been more high rise-residentially oriented than Milw. Do you see Milw turning more into Mpls like in terms of residential construction? More high rises?

3. Mpls will, of course, always be more of a big business downtown than Milw. And it was business that fueled the massive Mpls skyline. But as a residential location, downtown Milw has downtown Mpls easily beaten....the Miss River running through Mpls is quite attractive and nicely developed but one simple fact remains: it is not Lake Michigan*. In the long run, do you see Milw benefitting more from the amenity that the lake provides to make it a more attractive (and perhaps developed) residential downtown compared to Mpls?


* my impression is that a lot of cities like Atlanta, Dallas, etc, that would like to have a Chicago-style downtown don't realize how much Lk Mich contributes to the Windy City's allure. It would, of course, be impossible to envision what an inland Chicago would have looked like because it simply would not have been.

I didnt know that the Pier Wisconsin was going to have an Aquarium Markitect. Is it going to be one with various species like Shedd,or one that houses Wisconsin species only? For the last post, I think having a lake or ocean coastline is much better than a river. Being next to a lake or ocean is much more refreshing(breeze, waves, air) than by a river. Sailing, watersports, and beaches are much better in a large body of water. Ive seen people in Milwaukee surfing, parasailing, waverunners, boat racing, and diving-things that are not as easy or fun to do in a busy riverfront. Personally, I think Veterans Park is one of the most beautiful lakefronts, due to it large open space, with the skyline overhead and water all around. Seeing nothing but water is much more alluring, rather than seeing another city, no matter how beautiful it is. I think Atl and Dallas would be better thought of being next to a body of water, rather than in a dull inland. This is all personal opinion, so I dont wanna cause arguement. I think the housing is cool in Milwaukee-(lakefront condos, Beerline, and Third Ward.)

Hi ed!


1. Do you see this very positive trend to be a lot less than what is currently going on in Minneapolis or actually more similiar to it? (I'm thinking...a lot less)
I don't know, I think Minneapolis already has more people living in their downtown than Milwaukee and by the developments that are in the works over there I don't see Milwaukee catching up with them but mearly keeping pace. It would be interesting to know for sure as the perception maybe that Milwaukee is actually gaining ground. My answer would have to be that it's more similar to then alot less but if the trend proves to be that Milwaukee actually does have more going on downtown concerning residential development I wouldn't think of it as being alot.


2. Mpls has always been more high rise-residentially oriented than Milw. Do you see Milw turning more into Mpls like in terms of residential construction? More high rises?
Yes, the current development in Milwaukee shows this to be true.


3. In the long run, do you see Milw benefitting more from the amenity that the lake provides to make it a more attractive (and perhaps developed) residential downtown compared to Mpls?
Yes I do. I believe the developments that are currently happening in Milwaukee will spawn other attractions and in turn spawn more residential. I see only goods things for Milwaukee here on out. I believe downtown Milwaukee has made the turn around it needed to make and is becomeing quite an attractive place to more and more people.


* my impression is that a lot of cities like Atlanta, Dallas, etc, that would like to have a Chicago-style downtown don't realize how much Lk Mich contributes to the Windy City's allure. It would, of course, be impossible to envision what an inland Chicago would have looked like because it simply would not have been.
I think that cities like Dallas and Atlanta do realize the benefits that Chicago has concerning the lake. Some cites work at being more inventive towards how they can make up for this lack of natural beauty while others, it seems, give up. The bottom line is jobs. I mean, if Chicago and in fact Milwaukee too can't provide jobs to grow then natural beauty is out the window.

Chicago became the city it is because of it's location. If there was no Lake I don't believe there would've been a Chicago. Without a great lake the people that settled in Chicago probably would've spread out more. more people going to St. Louis, Kansas City, Minneapolis, Des Moines etc., etc.

Here's a theory:

If a Metra line is, indeed, extended to downtown Milwaukee, then Milwaukee will flourish by leaps and bounds and perhaps give Minneapolis a true run for its money, not only in population but in jobs, downtown growth, etc

Here's a theory:

If a Metra line is, indeed, extended to downtown Milwaukee, then Milwaukee will flourish by leaps and bounds and perhaps give Minneapolis a true run for its money, not only in population but in jobs, downtown growth, etc


you can't possibly believe that one single metra line would do all that, do you?

Here's a theory:

If a Metra line is, indeed, extended to downtown Milwaukee, then Milwaukee will flourish by leaps and bounds and perhaps give Minneapolis a true run for its money, not only in population but in jobs, downtown growth, etc
Hi Urb!

You may be right about that and if you are I would have to think that these results of a metra line you are talking about would be years and perhaps decades in the makeing.

^ No, I don't believe it.

It's just a theory. However, I do think a Metra line would be one of the contributing factors to an already booming downtown Milwaukee, and it is an asset that Minneapolis does not have

you can't possibly believe that one single metra line would do all that, do you?
certainly not over night.

Hi Urb!

You may be right about that and if you are I would have to think that these results of a metra line you are talking about would be years and perhaps decades in the makeing.

'sup Neph.

Actually, in the news a few months ago they said that Milwaukee is actively pursuing a Metra extension from the Kenosha line

It's just a theory. However, I do think a Metra line would be one of the contributing factors to an already booming downtown Milwaukee, and it is an asset that Minneapolis does not have
For me the jury is still out on just how "booming" downtown Milwaukee is at this time.

I agree, a metra line would greatly improve things for Milwaukee.

'sup Neph.

Actually, in the news a few months ago they said that Milwaukee is actively pursuing a Metra extension from the Kenosha line
Yes and if you ask Markitect I believe he would tell you that this is not a new thing. People have been actively pursuing this for some time now.

Maybe it's not booming, but it's holding its own.

Regarding the Metra extension, this would be a unique situation. Most capital improvements or extensions to Metra require federal or state funding. However, this is a unique situation where two states can pool together to fund this project, thus increasing the likelihood that it would receive federal funding.

Although now that I think about it, I can't imagine why Illinois would bother to fund such a project. The burden is really all on Wisconsin, and I wonder how people in other parts of Wisconsin would feel about it. They probably would be against paying for it, as it only benefits Milwaukee and not the rest of the state

^ No, I don't believe it.

It's just a theory. However, I do think a Metra line would be one of the contributing factors to an already booming downtown Milwaukee, and it is an asset that Minneapolis does not have

there's no doubt that a commuter rail line serving milwaukee's south suburbs would be an asset, but i find it more than a little silly to believe that one lone commuter rail line is going to make milwaukee surpass minneapolis in downtown population, growth, jobs, etc.

minneapolis has a big lead on milwaukee and minneapolis just recently opened up it's first light rail line that will funnel workers and people into the downtown along with creating a fixed link between downtown and the airport. minneapolis also has plans to significantly expand it's light rail system.

I wonder how people in other parts of Wisconsin would feel about it. They probably would be against paying for it, as it only benefits Milwaukee and not the rest of the state
Well I'm in Wausau and I wouldn't have a problem with paying for it. A strong Milwaukee benefits the whole state no matter how you look at it and I believe the majority of Wisconsinites know this.

there's no doubt that a commuter rail line serving milwaukee's south suburbs would be an asset, but i find it more than a little silly to believe that one lone commuter rail line is going to make milwaukee surpass minneapolis in downtown population, growth, jobs, etc.

minneapolis has a big lead on milwaukee and minneapolis just recently opened up it's first light rail line that will funnel workers and people into the downtown along with creating a fixed link between downtown and the airport. minneapolis also has plans to significantly expand it's light rail system.
Hard to argue any of that.

^ yeah, i'm not trying to turn this into a milwaukee vs. minneapolis thing. i love both cities a lot and i think each has a unique position right now to capitalize on their respective assets and get their urban development engines into hyper-drive. i see so much potential for both cities.

that said, minneapolis is farther along in the "game", so to speak, and i don't think it's realistic to expect milwaukee to catch up to and surpass minneapolis in terms of any of the urban benchmarks by which we commonly measure cities here on these forums. however, as long as milwaukee keeps doing its thing, and thinking and acting progressively - ie. transit/rail expansion, mixed-use neighborhood development, urban pedestrian-friendly design, etc. - then it's gonna do just fine for itself and become an ever-increasingly better city.

^ yeah, i'm not trying to turn this into a milwaukee vs. minneapolis thing. i love both cities a lot and i think each has a unique position right now to capitalize on their respective assets and get their urban development engines into hyper-drive. i see so much potential for both cities.

that said, minneapolis is farther along in the "game", so to speak, and i don't think it's realistic to expect milwaukee to catch up to and surpass minneapolis in terms of any of the urban benchmarks by which we commonly measure cities here on these forums. however, as long as milwaukee keeps doing its thing, and thinking and acting progressively - ie. transit/rail expansion, mixed-use neighborhood development, urban pedestrian-friendly design, etc. - then it's gonna do just fine for itself and become an ever-increasingly better city.
ditto

Well said!

minneapolis has a big lead on milwaukee and minneapolis just recently opened up it's first light rail line that will funnel workers and people into the downtown along with creating a fixed link between downtown and the airport. minneapolis also has plans to significantly expand it's light rail system.


I really wish Milwaukee had a light rail system. What's stopping the proposed light rail or electric bus systems from being approved?

I'm sure you folks saw the Minneapolis thread on this board about new residential construction. It shows how extensive it really is.

So here's another question for you: Milwaukee has been doing a nice job of attracting quality city living developments (Old Third Ward, Easttown, riverfront, and now in the path of the torn-down freeway).

1. Do you see this very positive trend to be a lot less than what is currently going on in Minneapolis or actually more similiar to it? (I'm thinking...a lot less)

2. Mpls has always been more high rise-residentially oriented than Milw. Do you see Milw turning more into Mpls like in terms of residential construction? More high rises?

3. Mpls will, of course, always be more of a big business downtown than Milw. And it was business that fueled the massive Mpls skyline. But as a residential location, downtown Milw has downtown Mpls easily beaten....the Miss River running through Mpls is quite attractive and nicely developed but one simple fact remains: it is not Lake Michigan*. In the long run, do you see Milw benefitting more from the amenity that the lake provides to make it a more attractive (and perhaps developed) residential downtown compared to Mpls?


* my impression is that a lot of cities like Atlanta, Dallas, etc, that would like to have a Chicago-style downtown don't realize how much Lk Mich contributes to the Windy City's allure. It would, of course, be impossible to envision what an inland Chicago would have looked like because it simply would not have been.

1. Do not underestimate Milwaukee that city is ticking right along. The number of housing units built in downtown Milwaukee exceeds every midwest city's downtown and Milwaukee has some gorgeous old school architecture. Another advantage to Milwaukee is the neighborhood called the East Side. The youthful East Side is also the largest and most densley populated urban neighborhood in the midwest and its setting on the bluffs of the lakefront is again gorgeous. The Third Ward is an old warehouse area turned neighborhood that has grown to expand into the neighboring Fifth Ward.

2. Minneapolis is and appears to to be in the future more of a highrise city but Milwaukee is building its residential downtown much faster than Minneapolis, almost double the number of condos in the past several years built in downtown than Minneapolis. Also Minneapolis does not have a neighborhood like the East Side abutting downtown. Minneapolis goes for the big splashy projects but Milwaukee does it thing one step at a time but its one step at time over and over cummulates faster than Minneapolis' splashy big projects.


3. I hope I don't catch hell for this but I see Milwaukee's future as brighter than Minneapolis as far as being urban and having a city like setting. One major reason is primarily because of its location so close to Chicago and the future as transit between the two cities. Amtrak's Hiawatha is the third busiest intra city Amtrak route in the country, after Boston -NYC and LA- San Diego. Milwaukee is just oozing with old school architecture that is neither decayed or neglected and apparently the citizens are taking advantage of that. So many things that people argue about on these forums about urban neighborhoods and downtowns Milwaukee already has, from full size grocery stores, to retail, entertainment and housing.


Really Milwaukee has a ton going for it from Bayview up KK Ave. through downtown through the East Side to the beautiful old school North Shore suburbs.

Milwaukee's only real drawback is its public transit but aside from that Milwaukee is quietly building the midwest's most urban downtown and urban surrounding neighborhoods under everyone's radar.

Another advantage to Milwaukee is the neighborhood called the East Side. The youthful East Side is also the largest and most densley populated urban neighborhood in the midwest


is that really true? there's got to be urban neighborhoods in chicago that are more densely populated than milwaukee's east side.

I wasn't including Chicago in any of the statistics. Btw, everything I posted is true and can be verified with regards to numbers.

^ ahhhh, the old "chicago exemption".

anyway, i'm not doubting anything phil, i'm just a little surprised that the east side is the most densely populated neighborhood in the midwest, sans chicago. that's cool, and i never would have guessed it.

go milwaukee!



btw, how much would milwaukee rock the house if it had a mini L system?

^ ahhhh, the old "chicago exemption".

anyway, i'm not doubting anything phil, i'm just a little surprised that the east side is the most densely populated neighborhood in the midwest, sans chicago. that's cool, and i never would have guessed it.

go milwaukee!



btw, how much would milwaukee rock the house if it had a mini L system?
I didn't know how else to state it what I did without using the tired 'except for'.

^how much would any city rock the house if it had a mini-L system? :)

But in reality, Minneapolis is the only midwest city right now that is currently moving in that direction. I love Minneapolis' development. It can only serve to strengthen the midwest, strengthen Chicago, and help the midwest develop a few of its own rivals against the east coast

Milwaukee's only real drawback is its public transit but aside from that Milwaukee is quietly building the midwest's most urban downtown and urban surrounding neighborhoods under everyone's radar.
LOL, Milwaukee does everything quietly except when it comes to Summerfest!

What you said about Milwaukee's public transit system is why I think Urb has a good point about a metra, and of course I believe Urb is talking about a Metra that would extent into downtown.
If Milwaukee ever gets all it's shit together I dare say what the city can accomplish!

Wow, you folks have been busy little forumers in the last day ;)

Not much i can add that hasn't been said, other than addressing the comment about people outside SE Wisconsin not wanting the Metra extension because it doesnt serve them. I am sure it is true that many people realize that it is beneficial, but i am sorry, anyone who uses the "I don't want to pay for it because I'll never use it" excuse is deluding themselves. I'll never use State Highway 55 near the Michigan border to get to Nelma, WI, but my tax dollars (if i had a job right now, LOL) go to pay for it just the same. Its how the system works, folks :)

I think Milwaukee would have a hard time "catching up" to the Twin Cities, just because the population of the Area is only roughly half as much. But i see a bright future for both cities.

We all do it. We look to the past, to our experiences, to what was, when we predict the future. And, of course, that makes sense.

So, let's try (and it may be tough) to look the other direction and perhaps put aside what once was.

Milwaukee, for a city its size, has traditionally been hurt by proximity to Chicago, in its relationship with, say, Mpls. Mpls could generate more urban action due to being further away from Chgo.

That was then. This is now.

Chicago has separated itself from other cities and has unarguable global status. So the question is: how does that affect Milw in relationship to other (Mpls, Clev, Indy, Det, StL, etc) midwest cities? I say: Milwaukee's stock goes up.

Look, one Metra line is not going to do the trick. But the fact is: Chicago and Milwaukee are coming together physically in the same way that Balt and DC already have. The prosperity of Chicago has generated a helluva lot of wealth in suburban Cook and the collar counties. I see no reason why a regional Chi-Mil area will not be a win/win situation all around.

While Chicago has always been strong in Milw's stream of consciousness, I'd say Milw starts looming larger in Chgo's. Truth is, many of us Chicagoans have always loved coming up to Milwaukee and enjoying what your city has to offer. Lots of us think it is great that another major city is this close (and, in this, no metro areas in the midwest can say this other than Milw and Chgo). We come up in droves for Summerfest, for Cub-Brewer games. And the truth is, with more and more renovation in Milw, it becomes more and more of attraction.

So the win/win situation I see: a unique big city/small city region, with people going back and forth (or either way from the areas inbetween). Chgo's attractions are legendary....and crowded, expensive, and a hassle to access. Milw may have created a smaller pond, but it is a much easier pond to negotiate. Coming to Milw gives you urban without aggrevation. Both have a lot to offer each other and this bodes well for both in the future.

Well said

Does anyone know how I can post pictures on this forum. My little rule message says I cannot post attachments, and I dont know how I can change that. Also, if anyone is familiar with Olympus Digital Cameras, it would be very helpful. Ive taken so many beautiful pictures of Milwaukee over the last year, however I cannot show them to the world lol. Thanks for your help.

Hey Everyone,
Not very exciting news, but these airport improvements are good for the city:


Mitchell International is undertaking several renovation projects that will prepare the facility to accommodate an increasing number of passengers:

• A complete remodeling of the retail concession mall will be completed shortly after the first of the year.
• The renovation and widening of Concourse C is underway.
• The Concourse D security checkpoint-widening project will be completed later this month, and will result in the addition of two more security lanes.
• The terminal ramp is being expanded to accommodate additional overnight aircraft parking.

I know some have of these have been started, completed. It's impossible to find renderings of the interior, the only ones I saw were the ones hanging on the walls in the terminal when I was flying last spring break. If anyone has any info or renderings, please fill me in.

The new Amtrak station on the far west side of the airport is also near completion.

Hi ReddAlert

Unfortunately the SSC forum doesn't allow the uploading of pictures. I reccomend www.imageshack.us for picture hosting

Hope to see your pics :)

-Jai

thanks Jai, now lets see if i can do it now lol :)

btw---what do you guys think about the new public art being put in Veterans Park. They are moving, metal "leaves" statue that looks and sounds like a pretty cool addition. Markitect, could you post pictures of it please?


oh yeah......i think its time this forum gets a....Indy vs. Detroit argument going dont ya think? Detroit fans at that game were classic jackasses...

Markitect,
Do you know anything about the design of the new station?

damn..lol...jai can you help me with sizing lol

New Amtrak Station (Rendering) [PDF file] (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/gmia-rendering.pdf)

Thanks for the rendering neqquah. I like the design, very Frank Lloyd Wright.

http://www.techimage.net/getimg.php?img=bright%20tower.jpg
http://www.techimage.net/getimg.php?img=P10101751.jpg

cool, they work....not my greatest..but what do you think/

btw...how do you get them to appear right on the forum page?

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/5655/bluewater.jpg

Put before http and then after .jpg.

thanks nap,

btw...i like what your guys did to those a-hole fans..they got what they deserve wouldnt you say.

ok, ill try what you said
http://www.techimage.net/getimg.php?img=DOG.jpg

looks like it worked...thank alot nap

ok...all done with the picture stuff

That Milwaukee skyline pic rocks

http://www.uwm.edu/UWM/Photos/aerial.jpg
Just a random UWM aerial, I've always liked this one though.

thanks..i like the color of the water in the pic you posted. Milwaukee has some days when the water is just crystal blue-almost Carribean like :)

let me see if I have this concept nailed down or not:

Milwaukee, through pure genius of the city and the forumers, has figured out what no other city has; if you turn a thread into a generic catch-all for "everything Milwaukee", you can, in fact, have what, in essence, is more board than thread.

Did that make sense? And if it did, you guys are absolutely brilliant!

What you see here is actually the third or fourth incarnation of a "What About Milwaukee" thread, because the forum has been overhauled/moved/redesigned/purged a few times within the past 3-4 years. We simply start over again whenever that happens.

thanks..i like the color of the water in the pic you posted. Milwaukee has some days when the water is just crystal blue-almost Carribean like :)

That's what it looked like when I flew out to New York earlier this year. We flew directly over Milwaukee on a sunny day and the shoreline looked Carribean like.

i remember i was down at the lake earlier this summer, and the water was so blue! Sadly, I didnt have a camera........lol it was a perfect photo-op: white sails with blue skies, blue water...........sigh

Lots of development news today from the Business Journal...

Earlier this summer, the City's Common Council finally approved a redevelopment plan for the Park East corridor, as well as shooting down a proposal for a community benefits agreement that would attach affordable housing and wage/hiring requirements to any projects built on City-owned land within the area. Critics argued that such mandates could discourage developers from building there due to increased costs, and they won. No community benefits mandates for City-owned land in the Park East area.

In recent weeks the same debate has resurfaced at the County-level--and the County Board supports such mandates for County-onwed land in the Park East area. Once again, critics are arguing against community benefit agreements, but they are falling on deaf ears among the County Board, and the lack of a definative decision is one of the things preventing the land from being opened for redevelopment. The longer the debate, the longer developers have to wait, the longer the land sits empty, and development opportunities slip away.

In a brilliant move, the City is investigating the possibility of purchasing the County-owned land in the corridor through the Redevelopment Authority (a City government agency) and the Milwaukee Development Corporation (a non-profit organization); that way, the land would be under the control of the City, which has already denied such mandates.

The downside--it could cost the City $20-plus million for the land, or the County may simply not be interested in selling

Here's the article: Park East: City seeks county land to 'jump-start' development (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2004/11/22/story1.html?page=1)

***

Here is an editorial from the Business Journal about the County Board's proposal for community benefits mandates: County board hampers Park East projects (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2004/11/22/editorial1.html)

***

Once again, there is a proposal for a sports stadium to be built in the Park East corridor. This time around, a sports development company called CollegeTown is proposing a football stadium for UWM, which would also include retail and commercial spaces. This seems to be in the extremely preliminary, let's-kick-around-some-ideas phase (so there don;t seem to be any renderings or anything like that) and has some extrememly major hurdles to overcome--namely the fact that UWM doesn't have a football prorgam; and the University is unlikely to even consider creating one unless someone ponies up $15 million or so to get the ball rolling...er, tossed.

Sharing a new stadium with other schools could be a possibility, too. The Milwaukee School of Engineering (which a couple weeks ago opened its indoor athletic facility, the Kern Center, a few blocks away) hasn't been approached, but could benefit from having a stadium for its soccer, baseball, and track teams closer to the downtown campus. Marquette University is not interested in re-establishing its football program.

Earlier Park East stadium proposals include a 1998 plan for a mixed-use soccer stadium for an MLS expansion team (which never materialized, as it was a few years before the freeway demolition was ever approved); and a plan from the early-1990s for a downtown baseball stadium for the Brewers (owner Bud Selig wasn't interested).

See the article for more: Park East: Greenberg floats stadium site for new UWM football team (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2004/11/22/story2.html?page=1)

***

Developers New Covenant Housing Corp. has submitted proposals for an inner city redevelopment project on the site of the former Finney Library at W. North Avenue and N. Sherman Boulevard. The first phase includes plans for a Digital Outpost Cyber Spot Coffee Shop, and possibly an ice cream parlor and bookstore. A proposed second phase calls for demolishing some adjacent buildings to make room for more retail space, 6 apartments, and 8 townhouses.

Check out the article for details: New Covenant's proposal calls for retail, housing (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2004/11/22/story8.html)

where is W. North ave. and N. Sherman?

It's on the West Side, just a couple blocks north of Washington Park. Sherman Boulevard is a renamed 43rd Street.

Nobody posted for awile...so heres some pics I recently took. Any good? By the way, the one of the waves was taken today. There were some that were 14 ft. I actually locked my keys in my car down there by accident so I had time to mess around with my camera. Sorry, the last 3 (ones taken today) are blurry do to the digital camera getting wet and cold.
http://img38.exs.cx/img38/4729/downtownsky.jpg
http://img38.exs.cx/img38/3066/brighttower.jpg
http://img38.exs.cx/img38/1294/P1010499.jpg
http://img38.exs.cx/img38/3299/P1010500.jpg
http://img38.exs.cx/img38/2904/P1010501.jpg

By the way, Markitect, do you have any renderings or information on that large building thats going up in the Medical Center?

On another discussion they were speaking about how those who live in Wisconsin see Milwaukee in a negative view. Discussion was being spoken about how Madison is given more attention, and citizens of Wisconsin see Milwaukee as second-best to Madison.

Being from Madison I'd have to disagree. I really don't see this as an issue. Madison isn't only striving to become a different city than Milwaukee, they are striving to become a city different from everyone. Those who live in Madison don't really see Milwaukee, they don't have a negative view on it. They don't really see a lot of different cities, because they love the city they live in. Any opinions on this/

Also personally I would never compare the way in which Chicago residents act to New Yorkers. I don't really notice a different personaly from those in Chicago, compared to other large midwestern cities, except in retail stores on Michigan Ave, but that's expected. :)

Thoughts?

I never really talked to many people from Madison...well..except for this hot mamacita that I met in Virginia. ::Sighs:: Most people that I have talked to seemed like normal people. Noone said any stupid stuff like "I hate Bush, eat leaves, not meat" or "Milwaukee sucks, you dirty, dirty, factory town...Madison is so clean and nice" or anything like that. Too me, they are just Wisconsinites---- they watch the Packers, drink a cold MKE brew, and eat sausage. The ones that people think are so arrogant and liberal seem to be the ones associated with UW. Maybe Im wrong...who cares..this thread needs discussion.

Very nice photos, Redd. Looks like Kilbourn Tower has topped out. The crews have started in earnest at U Club tower. Too bad I'll never even be allowed in the lobby of either building. Every single unit in the U Club building is over $1M. Who would have thought this to be possible even five years ago?

Enjoy City Hall while you can cuz you won't recognize it come spring when the crews start the renovation work. Three words: about freakin' time!

If anyone here has any inside track knowledge about the marsupial bridge under Holton Street .... without breaking any confidences, let us know what's up! I know it was rebid about a year ago, I started seeing crews down there around June and then it just.....stopped.

I was the one who was making the case in the other thread about the Madison-Milwaukee rivalry. I think when it comes to the State government, more attention (and funding) is paid Madison than its population a distant second to Milwaukee should allow.

And, culturally speaking, Madison is considered to be "Wisconsin's city." When was the last time you saw droves of High School kids plying the streets of Downtown Milwaukee for an athletic meet? Most gatherings of Wisconsinites, whether conferences talking about Wisconsin issues, or sporting events, happen in Madison.

The Madison-Milwaukee relationship is plagued by few people in either city knowing much of anything about the other. Most Madisonians view Milwaukee as an overgrown Kenosha, basically a huge blue-collar burg with some scary neighborhoods thrown in. This is a gross oversimplification of realty. Most Milwaukeens see Madison mainly as the college town, a place where 19 year old kids get drunk and fall out of windows, and where guys in suits run around "making laws." This also is an oversimplification.

ReddAlert, very nice pix. I love shots of Lk Michigan when a storm makes it ocean like. Was the scene along the river by any chance Cedarsburg?

nope actually downtown Wauwatosa...I thought it looked...European. Yes, the lake was nasty today....I was afraid I was gonna get knocked off the barrier lol..it was kinda fun though, not so much locking my keys in the car with the car running..but hey. At least it gave me an excuse to go to Alterra to unfreeze my hands lol. Thanks for the compliments on the pics :)

1. Do not underestimate Milwaukee that city is ticking right along. The number of housing units built in downtown Milwaukee exceeds every midwest city's downtown except one and Milwaukee has some gorgeous old school architecture.
That claim is still true no matter what is posted in the thread about KC condo development in downtown. It is all untrue and I wonder if I should correct it.

edsg25

This is correct.
This is why the thread has a general "what about milwaukee" title.

nope actually downtown Wauwatosa...I thought it looked...European. Yes, the lake was nasty today....I was afraid I was gonna get knocked off the barrier lol..it was kinda fun though, not so much locking my keys in the car with the car running..but hey. At least it gave me an excuse to go to Alterra to unfreeze my hands lol. Thanks for the compliments on the pics :)

that'll teach me not to think that Wauwatosa was all about Mayfair. I never saw other parts of the town. Cool pic...and very European (with a strong touch of English to go along with Milw German).

That claim is still true no matter what is posted in the thread about KC condo development in downtown. It is all untrue and I wonder if I should correct it.
qwerty where do you get your stats from? What website can I go to to see these stats for myself? I'm inclined to believe you but would like to reseach this for myself.

Have you ever seen the inside of the Basilica of St Josaphat?
I haven't until I found this picture and I must say this building is now
on my have to see list.

http://www.boomspeed.com/paule17/0c3.jpg

http://people.msoe.edu/~reyer/mke/1901c.jpg

I noticed that some of the type of redevelopment of warehouses and other old industrial buildings near the Third Ward (ones visible from 94) are also under renovation. Of course that renovation is nowhere near what's happening in the Third Ward. Do you see this trend accelerating? Will a lot more loft conversion south of downtown be taking place?

I see a Chgo/Milw parallel: the north lakefront has far more parkland, is more urban and urbane in nature, has more residential high rises than the south lakefront. In Chicago, as you know, the South Side is now going through a renaissance, in part due to the lack of developable land on the North Side. Do you guys see a similiar effort in Milwaukee?

Also...what did they ever do what the Public Natatorium bldg...the one with the dolphins swimming for the diners?

cool pics of that church :)