View Full Version : HOW MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF URBAN TRANSPORT ROUTES ARE IN YOUR CITY?


**RS**
February 15th, 2009, 11:57 AM
For example, in Sebastopol-City, there are 337 bus routes, 19 trolleybus routes, 18 cutter routes, 15 express bus lines, 44 lines of mini buses, one ferry route and the HEV-train.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3533/3280328709_8b7375cf58_o.jpg

Linnea2
February 15th, 2009, 07:38 PM
Quite simple in Tucumán (Argentina). There are just 14 bus routes belonging to the city of San Miguel de Tucumán, plus other 20 or so, overviewed by the provincial government for the metropolitan area (Gran Tucumán). All the routes are operated by private companies.
No water transport, no rail (despite promesses), no elevators, etc. Instead, full of taxis.

iambic peremeter
February 15th, 2009, 08:45 PM
In Warsaw there are just:
tram lines about 29
bus lines: i don't remember maybe 190
night bus lines:40
subway: 1 line in use , the second is about to build


railways:
2 lines of Fast Urban Trans (SKM) and next 3 are planned:)
13 commuters lines
1 old WKD line (one line about 30km lenght from Warsaw to Pruszkow)


intercity buses which go to other cities of Warsaw's aglomeration
water tram operates in summer time:cheers:

here you can see our buses :http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=771860&page=5

here our subway : http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=220086&page=8

here SKM: http://www.skm.warszawa.pl/?id=4 on
this site please click "wiecej" to see the gallery:)



best regards for Argentina and Ukraina:cheers:

Linnea2
February 16th, 2009, 04:02 AM
I´forgot: there is a night bus service available only on weekends, over the same day routes but the frequency is very poor, around 20-30´.
Regards.

Jayayess1190
February 17th, 2009, 05:54 AM
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Transit

Septa Routes: http://septa.org/inside/facts.html (it is wrong)

7 Train Routes (each line is broken into multiple parts, like the R1 Airport and R1 Glenside)
8 Trolley Routes
1 Interurban (Norristown High Speed Line)
2 Subway/Elevated
3 Trackless Trolley Routes
117 bus routes (might be more, there are new routes)

Other agencies in Philly:

1 Patco High Speed Line (train that is underground downtown, then crosses a bridge into Camden, New Jersey and continues into the New Jersey suburbs)

1 New Jersey Transit train line to Atlantic City
19 New Jersey Transit bus routes that serve downtown then head back to New Jersey

Homer J. Simpson
February 17th, 2009, 05:06 PM
In Toronto the TTC runs 3 subway lines, 1 ICTS, several streetcar routes and many buses. The GO system also runs commuter trains.

iambic peremeter
February 17th, 2009, 10:21 PM
cool

gramercy
February 17th, 2009, 10:59 PM
i wont count it because someone else will

Budapest:
- 11 lines of regular railroad running out of the city with hourly / half-hourly s-bahn (200kms inside city proper)
- 3(+1 construction, +1 proposed) subway lines
- 4 suburban light rail lines (3 of them would be incorporated into Metro5 and the 4th could potentially be incorporated into Metro2)
- about 150 kms of tramlines
- lots of electric/trolley buses
- lots of buses
- couple of ferries on the danube, almost entirely for tourists
- plus the usual: taxi, bikes, cars, walking

the average distance between public transportation stops/stations is about 300 metres, modal-split is about 60%

iambic peremeter
February 17th, 2009, 11:41 PM
yoop gramercy walking is the best kinde of urban transport:righton:

beto_chaves
February 17th, 2009, 11:41 PM
In Great Lisbon (Portugal) we have:

4 metro lines (one more is planned);
3 light metro lines;
1 elevated metro line;
6 train lines (for urban, regional, national and international connections. One more line will be open when the New Lisbon's Bridge be ready - );
5 tram routes;
3 funiculars and 1 lift;
469 bus routes (urban, suburban, late night / early morning special lines of several bus companies (the network has more than 70 kms of special bus lanes);
14 ferry lines.

gramercy
February 17th, 2009, 11:51 PM
yoop gramercy walking is the best kinde of urban transport:righton:

i quite enjoy it, walking over a bridge thats over a century old, then taking the tram then walking again with the most beautiful parlament building in sight

or running on the green island in the middle of the river, walking distance from everywhere

MetroSilesia
February 18th, 2009, 01:24 AM
We have a light-rail system with 14 lines, and 125Km lenght
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7126/p1000288pf7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/p1000288pf7.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img153/p1000288pf7.jpg/1/)

an S-Bahn system with 6 lines, and 177Km lenght
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2442/p1100634tg1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/p1100634tg1.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img187/p1100634tg1.jpg/1/)

and there is a "Zahnradbahn", 1 line
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8307/p1000403yb5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/p1000403yb5.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img187/p1000403yb5.jpg/1/)

also there is a "Seilbahn", 1 line
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9120/seil7br8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/seil7br8.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img100/seil7br8.jpg/1/)

and many many busses in the hole agglomeration (night-lines, special, urban, suburbs etc.)
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6592/p1100508wh7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/p1100508wh7.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img100/p1100508wh7.jpg/1/)

and wherever you are in Stuttgart, a bit of San Francisco is always with you...
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3406/p1100507dz6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/p1100507dz6.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img266/p1100507dz6.jpg/1/)


Pictures: Silesia

iambic peremeter
February 18th, 2009, 01:31 PM
.....and 1 lift;??? Beto what are you talking about?:shifty:

beto_chaves
February 18th, 2009, 02:32 PM
.....and 1 lift;??? Beto what are you talking about?:shifty:

Well, it's really a lift (Santa Justa lift), a big lift, connecting 2 different parts of Lisbon old zone. it's located in Baixa historic district.

Wikipedia info:
The Santa Justa Lift was designed by Raul Mesnier de Ponsrad, an engineer born in Porto to french parents, and apprentice of Gustave Eiffel. Construction began in 1900 and was finished in 1902; originally powered by steam, it was converted to electrical operation in 1907.
The iron lift is 45 metres tall and is decorated in neogothic style, with a different pattern on each storey. The top storey is reached by helicoidal staircases and has a terrace that offers views of Lisbon Castle, the Rossio Square and the Baixa neighbourhood. There are two elevator booths. Each booth has a wooden interior and accommodates 24 people.
The lift has become a tourist attraction in Lisbon as, among the urban lifts in Lisbon, Santa Justa is the only vertical one. Others, including Elevador da Glória and Elevador da Lavra, are more like funiculars that help climb the slopes of Lisbon.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4039/elevadorstajustalisboa1jo4.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7/399pxlisbonlisboahistortq4.jpg

Wuppeltje
February 18th, 2009, 04:20 PM
^^

Looks very cool. :)

iambic peremeter
February 18th, 2009, 05:23 PM
awesome:) but i don't understand the point. This is regular lift,so it works vertical.And how is possible to connect two 2 different parts of Lisbon old zone? I didn't catch it:(

GENIUS LOCI
February 18th, 2009, 06:22 PM
Because Lisbon has hilly districts you can reach not that easily by walk

http://i40.tinypic.com/11vjtvr.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/213m3va.jpg

Even the metro station of Baixa-Chiado got a long series of escalators to climb to Chiado exit, while the lower exit at Baixa is more 'ordinary'

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3147/2355450432_253ddacc01.jpg?v=0

GENIUS LOCI
February 18th, 2009, 06:28 PM
Anyway... there are many cities in the world which use lifts as PT (eg. Genova, Monaco, Salvador de Bahia)
And even cities wich use escalators in that way (eg. Perugia, Barcelona, Napoli)

thib8500
February 18th, 2009, 08:23 PM
In Lyon :
10 lines of commuters trains
4 métro lines
4 modern tram lines (more like light rail)
2 funiculars
7 trolleys lines
119 bus lines
19 minibus lines
4000 velo'v (public bikes)
Rickshaws in the center

timothy_tw
February 19th, 2009, 10:13 PM
Hong Kong SAR

Franchised Bus: 667
Non-Franchised Bus: 179
Total Bus Routes: 846
Rapid-Transit Rail (MTR): 8
Light Rail (MTR): 12
Tramways: 7 (including peak trams)
Public Light Bus: 407 (excluding red-tops, no data)
Ferry: 19 (excluding "Kai To", no data)
Cable Car: 1

Data excludes all intercity services (e.g. Hong Kong-Macau, Hong Kong-Shenzhen), intra-residential development services (Discovery Bay Shuttles), Governemnt approved scheduled staff shuttle and airport shuttle services, Ocean Park Cable Car, Kai To and Red-top mini buses.

timothy_tw
February 19th, 2009, 10:27 PM
Anyway... there are many cities in the world which use lifts as PT (eg. Genova, Monaco, Salvador de Bahia)
And even cities wich use escalators in that way (eg. Perugia, Barcelona, Napoli)

Hong Kong:

Central-Mid-Levels escalators
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central-Mid-Levels_escalators

iambic peremeter
February 19th, 2009, 10:28 PM
ok , don't put the taxis number, taxis aren't public transport , they are just cars.

coth
February 20th, 2009, 12:52 PM
Moscow

Buses (private operators not included i think) 2007
5217 cars
6135,2 km
586 routes

Trolleys 2007
1597 cars
971,1 km
88 routes

Trams 2007
886 cars
432,5 km
41 routes

Metro 2009
292,2 km
12 lines
177 stations
3438 cars per day in average (2007)

Light rails (Monorail) 2009
4,7 km
1 line
6 stations

Commuter and satellite rails
3500+ km
10 directions
1 circle line (no uninterrupted service as it's over 500km long)
600+ stations

sotavento
February 20th, 2009, 06:04 PM
In Great Lisbon (Portugal) we have:

4 metro lines (one more is planned);
3 light metro lines;
1 elevated metro line(peoplemover);
6 train lines (6 urban, 3 regional, national and international connections. One more line will be open when the New Lisbon's Bridge be ready - );
6 tram routes (1 interurban/historic in Sintra);
3 funiculars and 2 lifts (santa Justa/Lisboa + Almada);
469 bus routes (urban, suburban, late night / early morning special lines of several bus companies (the network has more than 70 kms of special bus lanes); ««« did you count ALL of them ???
14 ferry lines ««« you counted Setubal-Troia?.

Just a small update ...


Do you people count long walkings/escalators as "public transport" ??? we have some LONGGGGGGGGGG walks and a lot of steps here ... or as we say the Baixa to Chiado is the 5th Metro Line (the actual station is called Baixa-Chiado but the actual exits are some 300m apart .. and that's perpendicular to the actual station and not at both esxtremes ... and it's all escalators to either side 200/250m of mecanical-steps). :lol:

FML
February 20th, 2009, 07:11 PM
Since it's difficult to define the exact area, I simply summed figures of Tokyo, Kanagawa, Chiba, and Saitama Prefectures. Figures are just approximate. Intercity airlines/ferries are excluded.

126 railway lines by 38 companies, including:
3 high speed intercity lines.
16 to 20 subway lines, depending on the definition.
7 monorails.
6 people movers.
1 to 3 tram lines, depending on the definition.
(Others are surface/elevated commuter/intercity lines.)

4 funiculars.
5 aerial lifts.

6,797 bus routes including community buses (source) (http://www.geocities.jp/busservicemap/index10.html), operated by 107 companies and 123 municipalities.
343 highway bus routes.

20 water bus routes by 5 companies.
1 car ferry line.
1 helicopter line.
1 rowing ferry.
1 escalator (for fee, that is).

iambic peremeter
February 20th, 2009, 09:42 PM
wow helicopter line , let's talk aobut it!!!!! I think is perfect solution for Warsaw's traffic.How many people may travel
by heli? ok sotavento is right -escalators sounds silly here.

**RS**
February 21st, 2009, 10:07 AM
For Simferopol (second largest city on Crimean peninsula after Sebastopol-City):
BUS
routes - 65
total lenght - 920 km

MINI BUS
routes - 64
total lenght - 896 km

TROLLEYBUS
routes -7
total lenght - 80 km

beto_chaves
February 21st, 2009, 07:22 PM
Just a small update ...


Do you people count long walkings/escalators as "public transport" ??? we have some LONGGGGGGGGGG walks and a lot of steps here ... or as we say the Baixa to Chiado is the 5th Metro Line (the actual station is called Baixa-Chiado but the actual exits are some 300m apart .. and that's perpendicular to the actual station and not at both esxtremes ... and it's all escalators to either side 200/250m of mecanical-steps). :lol:

Not all buses lines are counted... sorry! and yes, I forgot Setúbal-Troia ferry!
:bash:

And now, the correct Great Lisbon data!

In Great Lisbon (Portugal) we have:

4 metro lines (one more is planned);
3 light metro lines;
1 elevated metro line(peoplemover);
6 train lines (6 urban, 3 regional, national and international connections. One more line will be open when the New Lisbon's Bridge be ready - );
7 tram routes (1 interurban/historic in Sintra);
3 funiculars and 2 lifts (Santa Justa/Lisboa + Almada);
+469 bus routes (urban, suburban, late night / early morning special lines of several bus companies (the network has more than 70 kms of special bus lanes);
15 ferry lines.

LtBk
February 21st, 2009, 11:08 PM
In Greater Baltimore:
54 Bus routes
22 Commuter bus routes
1 Subway line
1 Light rail line
3 Commuter rail lines

MarcVD
February 22nd, 2009, 06:44 PM
And now, the correct Great Lisbon data!


Do we have a thread about Lisbon, and specially Lisbon trams, somewhere ?

Thanks, Marc.

beto_chaves
February 24th, 2009, 07:58 PM
Do we have a thread about Lisbon, and specially Lisbon trams, somewhere ?

Thanks, Marc.

Marc, is this what you're looking for?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=438877

GENIUS LOCI
February 25th, 2009, 11:47 AM
1 helicopter line.Is an helicopter line from Narita to city-center for bussinessmen as the one once was in New York for PanAm topclass linking Newark to manhattan (and landing directly on the roof of PanAm building, now MetLife)?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mlPoGU4VqSk/SMp3IRE1_fI/AAAAAAAADQI/kr-De29PXno/s400/helicopter.jpg

Burkitt
February 25th, 2009, 05:55 PM
In London we have

Mainline Rail
14 major terminus stations, over 350 railway stations within the Greater London area. Commuter trains serve the entire London area and surrounding regions, Intercity trains serve destinations throughout the UK and Eurostar services run through the Channel Tunnel to France and Belgium.

London Underground
11 lines, of which 4 are subsurface and 7 are deep tube. 270 stations, 400 route km, carries over 1.1 billion passengers per year.

Docklands Light Railway
40 stations, 31 route km. Driverless metro serving the east of london.

Tram
3 lines. 39 stations, 28 route km.

Buses
700 routes. 17,500 bus stops, 8000 buses. Over 1.8 billion passengers per year.

Boats
2 commuter catamarans, 2 cross river ferries.

Taxis
Around 21000 black cabs.

Chusanch
February 25th, 2009, 11:17 PM
In Zaragoza, we are way more limited that most of you. There is a clear domination of TUZSA, the city urban transport private operator.

32 Standard Bus routes (TUZSA) + 9 Rural bus routes (4 different companies)
5 Shuttle routes + 1 Rural Shuttlebus (TUZSA)
7 Nightbus (TUZSA) + 4 Rural Nightbus (4 different companies)
2 Touristbus routes (TUZSA) + 3 Touristbus seasonal routes (TUZSA)
13 buses for handicapped users (a la carte) (TUZSA)

1 commuter train line (RENFE Cercanías)

1 tramline (about to start construction works - scheduled Summer 2009)

1 summer boat service along the river - (touristic use)

2/3 tourist tractors with coaches (1 Park, 2 Galacho Juslibol, 3 Galacho Alfranca) (pleasure use).

1 Telepheric (Delicias Station - Expo Grounds)

ov_79
February 26th, 2009, 04:00 PM
Brno, Czech republic
pop: 371,000

Public transport with integrated in DMPB Brno company:

tramways: 13 lines (311 vehicles)
trolleybuses: 13 lines (146 vehicles)
buses: 41 lines (396 vehicles)
night buses: 11 lines
commuter trains: 10 lines
commuter buses: 33 lines

Commuter trains and buses are common project with Czech railways and a regional bus company.

Note 1: The system had been racionalized (less lines, more frequent). For example there were 22 tram lines in early 90's.

Note 2: Could be a bit more extended, but generally it is enough not to die in traffic jams.

:)

DWNTWN
February 27th, 2009, 04:00 AM
Miami-Dade County, FL


Metrobus

891 Buses
95 Routes
South Miami-Dade Busway, the longest BRT line in the United States (19.7 Miles)
83,458, 376 riders in FY 2007


http://www.gpbusgallery.com/images/other/miami/06330a.jpg

Metrorail

22.6 miles of elevated, heavy rail
22 stations
Average 61,700 daily boardings


http://www.railfanwindow.com/albums/album407/DSC_6730a_35.jpg

Metromover

Electrically powered, fully automated peoplemover system in Downtown Miami
21 stations on 4.4 mile route
No fare
Ridership FY 2007 was 8.7 million


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3457/3246991840_eebfb6a63b.jpg?v=1233935690

**RS**
February 28th, 2009, 06:34 PM
btw,Sebastopol-City have very large bus fleet - more than 10 000 pieces of rolling stock...

bayviews
March 1st, 2009, 01:30 AM
btw,Sebastopol-City have very large bus fleet - more than 10 000 pieces of rolling stock...

Over ten thousand buses? That's a HUGE fleet

Wouldn't that be mostly minbuses?

mqts
March 1st, 2009, 02:16 AM
São Paulo city

Metro (Metrô de São Paulo, São Paulo Metro)
in operation: 4 lines, 61.3 km and 55 stations
under construction: 1 line (12.8 km, 11 stations) + 9 km and 7 stations
under project: 1 line (approximately 20 km, 18 stations)
3.3 million passangers/day
Fleet: 133 trains (798 cars) in operation + 31 trains (186 cars) until 2010

Railway (CPTM - Companhia Paulista de Trens Metropolitanos, Paulista Company of Metropolitan Trains)
in operation: 6 lines, 261.9 km and 93 stations
under project: 2 lines (43.5 km, 2 stations, one is an express, and other a branch)
1.8 million passangers/day
Fleet: 155 trains (1097 cars) in operation + 48 trains (384 cars) until 2010

Municipal buses (SPTrans - São Paulo Transporte, São Paulo Transportation)
10 municipal bus corridors, with 113 km in operation and 23.8 under construction
28 municipal bus terminals, controlled by SPTrans
980 main routes + 356 minor ones
5.5 million passenger/day
Fleet: 14.736 buses (inclunding mini, standart and articulated buses), operated by private companies. Situation in January/2009

Intermunicipal buses (EMTU - Empresa Metropolitana de Transportes Urbanos, Metropolitan Company of Urban Transport)
1 intermunicipal bus corridor, with 33 km, which 22 km are electrified
10 metropolitan bus terminals, controlled by EMTU
418 main routes + 151 minor ones
1.5 million passengers/day
Fleet: 5.000 buses, operated by private companies

Shuttles (operated by EMTU)
3 shuttles between CPTM and Metro stations
Fleet: private mini and microbuses, controlled by EMTU

mqts
March 1st, 2009, 02:20 AM
Over ten thousand buses? That's a HUGE fleet

Wouldn't that be mostly minbuses?

That's my doubt too...

stevevance
March 1st, 2009, 08:10 AM
Chicago

Urban rail
8 routes - 7 are elevated, 1 is at-grade only. Of 7 elevated, 2 have below-grade segments. Of 7 elevated, 2 have at-grade segments. (operated by CTA)
2 of 8 routes terminate at our two international airports, ORD and MDW (this is rare in USA).
1190 vehicles
144 stations

Suburban rail
11 routes - 1 is 100% electrified (operated by Metra)
237 stations

Interstate suburban rail
1 route to Indiana, independent of 11 routes Suburban rail (operated by South Shore Line NICTD)
1 route to Kenosha, Wisconsin, included in 11 routes Suburban rail (operated by Metra)

Urban buses
154 routes (operated by CTA)
2144 vehicles

Suburban buses
220 routes (operated by Pace)
702 buses
696 vans
355 vehicles in paratransit service (for suburban and urban customers)

**RS**
March 1st, 2009, 10:59 AM
Over ten thousand buses? That's a HUGE fleet

Wouldn't that be mostly minbuses?
No,there are only 980 minibuses. Mainly used buses of medium capacity.

bayviews
March 2nd, 2009, 06:48 AM
No,there are only 980 minibuses. Mainly used buses of medium capacity.


You have over 10,000 regular-sized buses in Sebastabol?

vichase
March 2nd, 2009, 12:15 PM
In Alicante (330.000 pop), Spain:

4 Commuter train lines:
- C-1 and C-3 (operated by RENFE)
- L1 and L9 (operated by FGV)

2 light rail lines:
- L3 (over L1) and L4, L2 and L5 under contrucction.

DidacXavier
March 3rd, 2009, 02:41 AM
In València (810.000, 1.700.000 metro area), Spain:

SUBWAY AND TRAM (MetroValencia, FGV)

- 3 subway lines (1 more u/c)
- 2 tram lines (1 more u/c)
- 147 km
- 121 trains
- 132 stations

BUS (EMT)

- 44 bus routes
- 3 tourist routes
- 9 night routes
- Total routes: 56.
- Total amount busses in the fleet: 480

COMMUTER RAIL LINES (RENFE)

- 6 lines (C1 to C6).

isaidso
March 4th, 2009, 10:28 AM
City of Toronto

Streetcars: 11 lines...328,700/day...248 streetcars...305.8 km
Subway: 3 lines...901,400/day...706 subway cars...68.3 km
Bus: 170 routes...1,197,000/day...469 buses
Taxis: 5,000
Ferries: 3 routes
Water taxi: on demand water taxi service in the Inner Harbour

Greater Toronto, population in catchment area 7,000,000+

Trains: 7 lines...160,000/day...470 trains...180 trips/day
Buses: 7 routes...30,000/day...305 buses...1,430 trips/day

Under Construction

Streetcars: 7 lines...120 km

bayviews
March 5th, 2009, 09:13 AM
City of Toronto

Streetcars: 11 lines...328,700/day...248 streetcars...305.8 km
Subway: 3 lines...901,400/day...706 subway cars...68.3 km
Bus: 170 routes...1,197,000/day...469 buses
Taxis: 5,000
Ferries: 3 routes
Water taxi: on demand water taxi service in the Inner Harbour

[B

Are you sure? I thought the TTC had a lot more than 469 buses.

**RS**
March 6th, 2009, 06:20 PM
You have over 10,000 regular-sized buses in Sebastabol?
Yes. I will open a thread on the buses of Sebastopol soon,where you can get acquainted with basic models of buses and rolling stock.

ØlandDK
March 18th, 2009, 01:15 AM
Copenhagen:

Metro:
2 lines (2 more lines are planed/UC)
22 stations - 9 underground and 13 overground (16 ned underground stations are planed)
34 trains (driver-less)
Daily ridership: 115,000
System length: 21 km

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/%C3%98restad--metro.jpg

S-Train
7 lines
85 stations
135 trainsets
Daily ridership: 357,000

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Stog.jpg/800px-Stog.jpg

...to tired to find out about all the busses

isaidso
March 18th, 2009, 10:32 AM
Are you sure? I thought the TTC had a lot more than 469 buses.


No, I'm not sure. I pulled the numbers off the net. Information was hard to come by. I'm sure it's out there, but didn't know where to look beyond the obvious google searches.