http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/feb/19/could-stimulus-plan-bring-high-speed-rail-tampa/
By RICH SHOPES | The Tampa Tribune

Published: February 19, 2009

TAMPA - High-speed rail looked dead four years ago, but backers of the proposal say it's being resuscitated now thanks to the recently approved federal stimulus package.

"This is unbelievable," said Lee Chira, chairman of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority.

The group hadn't met since voters in November 2004 opposed granting state taxes to the project – the first leg of which would have connected Orlando and Tampa for $2 billion.

Now the authority is hopeful it could get some of the $8 billion recently set aside for high-speed rail projects nationwide.

"We're 90 percent sure we'll get it because the president said he is looking for communities and authorities that have shovel-ready projects," Chira said. "We're farther along than anybody."

The authority sent a letter to the Federal Transit Administration on Jan. 27 expressing interest in the funds and has scheduled a meeting Feb. 26 in Orlando to discuss what to do next.

By mid-September, the authority must have its formal application submitted to the FTA.

The project's first leg from Orlando International Airport to Tampa was expected to cost $2 billion and include stops at downtown Orlando, Disney World and Lakeland.

The federal government issued environmental permits that would need to be updated, and several years ago granted permission to access the Interstate 4 median for the project, Chira said.

Orlando would become a hub for later extensions to Miami and Jacksonvillle.

"We could be under construction in 12 to 18 months," Chira said _ if the project receives funding.
After that it could be three to four years before trains are running. They would travel up to 120 mph.

OK, my jaw dropped because I never looked at FHSR as a shovel-to-dirt ready project. I kept looking ultra local (TECO streetcar).

Unless they needed to make major changes, they could also go back to the route that doesn't include Disney world, I would think? Disney was vital for it's own support of the project when it was a state-funded amendment/project. FHSR, as a FEDERAL project, doesn't need the mouse.

I'm totally shocked at this too. If this project is able to go through, then we WON'T be needing a 20-lane I-4! That's AMAZING!

Damn I'm shocked!! I never thought of the project as "shovel ready" either, imagine one of the most poorly planned and sprawled metro having the best high speed rail system in the country. :D

Interesting posts from another forum in a stimulus thread.

I posted that one good thing is we might be getting HSR, and so a forumer posted this.

Agreed. One of the things I am disappointed in is that nobody has said anything about amtrak running high speed rail from dc to Atlanta. The plans have been drawn up and they have the right of way. All they need is the money.

Really? Wow imagine if they built the Tampa-Orlando high speed rail and Atlanta-DC HSR. Eventually when the extension from Orlando to Jacksonville was built it could connect to Atlanta! So with that we'd have revival in mass transit in which you'd be able to go from Tampa or Miami if the extension is built to New York using only mass transit. That is amazing! That would be like going from London to Warsaw on one high speed rail line which Europe which has one of the best rail systems in the world does not have anything like that.

I think this is what stimulus money should be going towards, this stuff will actually make money back. Imagine for example every rail station in a major city will need a nice big station and park-n-ride garage, etc. Usually developments around mass transit flourish for example when Dallas extended its light rail system. So around every station in urban cities you might see some nice urban developments. For my metro this could finally be the spark that would finally get these fools here to fund mass transit. I have to look up exactly how long it would take to get to Tampa-Orlando by HSR, but it is pretty quick.


Wow so the rail project would begin in St. Petersburg, FL, now that is cool!

http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/images/2c_routes.gif

So from downtown St.Pete to Orlando going 120mph is like 45 minutes. I-4 has a very wide median and one of the reasons was for the HSR.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u1/MK727/Tampa/PB050962.jpg

I think they would need to keep the Disney stops. I would have used it last week when I was in town. We had to drive to Disney, it would have been much easier to jump on a train in the morning to head to Disney and then make the return trip in the evening. I've lost all hope for a direct Atlanta to Tampa passenger rail line of any type.

^^
I don't think a downtown Orlando stop was ever contemplated originally-- it's out of the way- unless the train follows I-4 up to Jax, that is...

For Orlando, the OCCC, OIA, and probably a direct WDW station would be needed. But think about it... why not WDW, for God's sake, that's the No.1 tourist destination in the state let alone the country and perhaps the world.

Nevertheless, supportive rail connectors would be built as well.

And back to Dockery and the CRT in CFLA... I mentioned on the other thread the widening and re-grading of the entire I-4 corridor from Tampa to Orlando that they did in the Late '90's. Part of the reason they did it was to level the easement to have rail in the median-- at the time, 2012 Olympics was a viable bid Tampa (and Orlando) were making. Now, the easement could be used for HSR if that's what they decide to do.

So, Dockery's argument for connecting Orlando and Tampa by rail fails yet again since this easement exists, and since Amtrak runs between the two cities.

Dockery is a moron by the way it sounds. I hope we get through on this rail thing, as many of our govts still don't know how to think.

BTW: I've made a new post and a corresponding poll about the HSR at my blog: http://tampatransitutopia.blogspot.com

Dockery is the only reason FHSR is a concept that ever existed in any way, shape or form.

^^
I know her husband was a big proponent of HSR, and lost $$$ when Jeb killed the amendment. But using revenge against Jeb, (who set up the original deal with CSX), is setting the state backwards another 20 years transit-wise and is not productive use of senate time.

That I can agree with. But I'm not calling anyone an idiot over this.

It's a Florida politics issue in general where we don't work to make something the best -- but fight it tooth and nail because we don't like it. Brian Blair took that type of tack with the TECO streetcar and you see it day to day with any number of issues locally as well as state wide.

Next meeting: (from the Florida High Speed Rail Authority website)


The Florida High Speed Rail Authority announces a public meeting to which all persons are invited.

DATE AND TIME:Thursday, February 26, 2009, 10:00 a.m. – 1:00 p.m.

PLACE:Executive Conference Room, Greater Orlando Aviation Authority, Orlando International Airport, One Airport Blvd., Orlando, Florida

Subject:The meeting will focus on the review of recent federal legislation and activities relating to High Speed Rail and will develop a plan of action for the Authority to participate in newly created federal programs.

A copy of the agenda may be obtained by contacting: Mr. Lee Chira, Chairman, Florida High Speed Rail Authority, 800 North Highland Avenue Orlando, Florida 32803, (407)297-1600, E-mail: lchira@lcadevelopment.com, or Fax: (407)297-0480. Pursuant to the provisions of the Americans with Disabilities Act, any person requiring special accommodations to participate in this meeting is asked to advise the agency at least 7 days before the meeting by contacting: Mr. Lee Chira, Chairman, Florida High Speed Rail Authority, 800 North Highland Avenue, Orlando, Florida 32803, (407)297-1600, E-mail: lchira@lcadevelopment.com, or Fax: (407)297-0480. If you are hearing or speech impaired, please contact the agency using the Florida Relay service, 1(800)955-8771 (TDD) or 1(800)955-8770 (Voice).

For more information, contact Nazih Haddad at (850) 414-4500. Pursuant to provisions of the Americans with Disabilities Act, any person requiring special accommodations to participate in these meetings are asked to advise the Authority at least 48 hours before the meetings by contacting Alicia Wadrop at (850) 414-5244.

I really really really hope that this project moves forward. Not only is is a catalyst for state wide rail, but it would be a catalyst for Tampa Light Rail, IMO. If this gets in place it would help LRT in Tampa as people need a way to get around the city once they are here, and this would help push for LR in Tampa.

Steve

^^
agreed

not really interested in a train to OIA - rather go downtown. Let local rail go to OIA - lest you wish to become a colony.

^^Strategically more people will go to OIA than DT Orlando so it makes sense to me. Orlando can build light rail to go to OIA. I really hope this goes through this would be an important step in Florida's transportation improvements, as said this could stem off many light rail projects.

I have to agree with Smiley. This high speed rail plan scares the bejesus out of me. Its not the technology, its the route, corridor, costs and station locations. An Amtrak statewide corridor service or Caltrain style (express and local service) commuter rail system in Central Florida (on existing tracks) would be more affordable and make more sense than spending $2 billion on a train that's not set up to serve Central Florida residents. This state is already gun shy when it comes to rail. If this thing turns into a +$2 billion boondoggle it will screw us for decades, as far as moving forward on other rail transit related projects. If anyone needs proof, just check out Jax's $184 million, 2.5 mile Skyway Express system.

I disagree. An Amtrak statewide corridor would be great, but only if it were on dedicated track, not sharing with CSX and co. That is a huge part of the problem with Amtrak nationwide. When freight runs the rails passenger service will always loose out. The only areas that Amtrak runs reasonably on time is where they have dedicated tracking. So, I would be OK with a regular service rather than HSR, but only on dedicated tracks, and if we are building tracks we may as well go for HSR.

But you are right, it is not set up for central Florida residents, unless they wanted to go to Tampa. It is set up for people to go from Tampa to OIA or Disney, and of course tourists going from Tampa to Disney or from Disney/OIA to Tampa. That is where SunRail comes in, that is the system that will benefit central Florida residents.

As for Skyway its main problem is that it was built when there was really no good reason to be in DT Jacksonville. That of course is changing and it seems that the Skyway will be a good DT circulator when other rail gets build eventually. It is always mentioned when people talk of commuter rail or LR for transit into DT. The cost per mile was high, but not horrible considering it is elevated.

I disagree. An Amtrak statewide corridor would be great, but only if it were on dedicated track, not sharing with CSX and co. That is a huge part of the problem with Amtrak nationwide. When freight runs the rails passenger service will always loose out. The only areas that Amtrak runs reasonably on time is where they have dedicated tracking. So, I would be OK with a regular service rather than HSR, but only on dedicated tracks, and if we are building tracks we may as well go for HSR.

A statewide corridor would be on dedicated track. For it to run, additional track would have to laid within the CSX corridor. This is why they work and the typical Amtrak intercity trains don't.

As for Skyway its main problem is that it was built when there was really no good reason to be in DT Jacksonville.

There was and still is a need for rail transit in urban Jacksonville, but the skyway was the wrong application and wrong route. For the same price, they could have built a ground level light rail line from DT to the airport. This was a huge debate in the late 1970s, but the city went with the skyway because it was "free money".

That of course is changing and it seems that the Skyway will be a good DT circulator when other rail gets build eventually. It is always mentioned when people talk of commuter rail or LR for transit into DT. The cost per mile was high, but not horrible considering it is elevated.

The costs are high because the city paid for two monorail systems, a large double tracked river crossing and a state of the art high tect O&M facility that was constructed for a much larger system. Because the first phase did not connect major local destinations at the end points or stretch outside of downtown, ridership has been extremely low, which in turn has made additional rail expansion nearly impossible. My fear is high initial costs combined with poor route and station selection could combine to doom HSR as well.

A statewide corridor would be on dedicated track. For it to run, additional track would have to laid within the CSX corridor. This is why they work and the typical Amtrak intercity trains don't.
If that is true then great, but I had not heard that the state Amtrak corridors would be dedicated. I have heard wishful thinking, but never a hard statement that they would be separate from freight. It is not always the case that they are separate, look at the North Carolina rail system, a state system that runs with freight. Even if HSR were scrapped it is reasonably likely that the intercity trains would follow the same route - if indeed they were new tracks. HSR is important for perception as much as speed. People do perceive HSR as faster, more glamorous, and more convenient than a typical intercity rail route.



There was and still is a need for rail transit in urban Jacksonville, but the skyway was the wrong application and wrong route. For the same price, they could have built a ground level light rail line from DT to the airport. This was a huge debate in the late 1970s, but the city went with the skyway because it was "free money".
Valid point indeed; Tampa even had a People mover system like the original Skyway but our short line was scrapped. Hopefully the agency will get you a longer system.

The costs are high because the city paid for two monorail systems, a large double tracked river crossing and a state of the art high tect O&M facility that was constructed for a much larger system. Because the first phase did not connect major local destinations at the end points or stretch outside of downtown, ridership has been extremely low, which in turn has made additional rail expansion nearly impossible. My fear is high initial costs combined with poor route and station selection could combine to doom HSR as well.
I agree that high costs could impact future expansion, but I believe that the route is good for what it is intended to be. Orlando has a plan (albeit not very far along) to connect DT to OIA by LR. The HSR route connects an international airport (OIA) with Tampa (and if Tampa gets the LR off the ground then our airport will be linked too) and OIA with Disney, which is the major reason people go to Orlando. So, it may not be the best route for residents in Orlando, but I believe it is a good route for its purpose. SunRail provides the access for residents of Orlando, and that paired with a line to OIA would be a very good system indeed.

Steve

With all of that siad though, having HSR does not necessarily mean no intercity rail for Amtrak in Florida. It is likely they would not have the Tampa-Orlando route, but the rest of the intercity plan could easily still happen. What I am getting at is that hving one does not mean doom for the other, especially since the appropriations do in fact keep them separate as this $8B is for HSR, not intercity rail.

Steve

True, we can have both. However, if the old plan stays intact "as is", it does mean dropping at least +$2 billion on a questionable route between Orlando and Tampa. Once we get past the glamour and start looking at what we are really getting for the cost, its a risky project that could have the potential to stunt additional rail development in Florida for a long time.

And why do I want to go to OIA? How does that serve Tampa or St. Pete? It doesn't. Going to ORlando for business does - but you can't get there from here with this plan. This is the Disney train - nothing more. Screw it until they fix the plan, my saucer-eyed youth. You have been deluded by the mouse

^^
Then I guess you'd rather have a twenty-laned I-4 going between the two huh?

The current HSR plan may not be good, but its better than nothing.

OIA has many international flights that TIA does not offer and this route facilitates the use of that airport by people in Tampa that otherwise would not use it due to the distance and cost of parking. OIA is a major international hub for tourists coming into Florida and traveling to the Tampa area for the beaches or people taking day trips from Disney to Tampa. I do not like the mouse any more than most here....but to the rest of the world the mouse is Orlando. This would be good for business between Tampa and Lakeland, as well as other parts of Orlando as there are other stops. The best thing that Orlando could do would be to build a LRT, extend SunRail or a good connector bus to SunRail. I believe that if anyone proposed that most people would be OK with this route.

Steve

^^Exactly downtown Orlando is nothing special nor is downtown Tampa to people coming from around the world. That is why OIA makes sense, it is a busy international airport where people could take the train to Disney or the gulf coast beaches if they wanted. Now the rail plan does happen to pass through downtown St.Pete and Tampa but if Orlando wanted to they could invest in some kind of rail to downtown, simple.

Sure, kill TIA . . . go for it -instead of having the area get what it actually deserves. I would rather connect by air than by train. Maybe you do not do business but a lot of people taking i-4 do - a lot more than go to OIA - because it is preferrable not to. Trains connect cities. IF you want to be Port St. Lucie, enjoy

Then I guess you'd rather have a twenty-laned I-4 going between the two huh?

Silly comment. And bad is not better than nothing - it is still bad - why don't you fix it instead.

The system doesn't go to DT Orlando at all - it is a waste money. There is nothing urban at OIA (or Disney).

Sure, kill TIA . . . go for it -instead of having the area get what it actually deserves. I would rather connect by air than by train. Maybe you do not do business but a lot of people taking i-4 do - a lot more than go to OIA - because it is preferrable not to. Trains connect cities. IF you want to be Port St. Lucie, enjoy



Silly comment. And bad is not better than nothing - it is still bad - why don't you fix it instead.

The system doesn't go to DT Orlando at all - it is a waste money. There is nothing urban at OIA (or Disney).
Who would fly Tampa to Orlando commercially?? Seriously... I know people who take I-4 do business, along with commuters, but what does that have to do with the train connecting at OIA instead of Orlando? If DT Orlando had a ready plan for rail to go from DT to OIA then I'd understand why DT would be a good location. Otherwise sure DT Orlando is a little urban, but guess what Orlando is like most other cities, most of the important things are sprawled out and away from DT. There is NOTHING of real importance in downtown Orlando, yes it is a nice downtown but more people go to OIA and Disney than go to downtown Orlando. The important areas of Orlando are sprawled out, many major companies have office parks and not office buildings in Orlando. The biggest area of importance Disney and all the hotels around it, and then OIA which sees more travelers than any other airport in FL.

The simple answer is rail on the existing CSX corridor where Central Florida residents actually live and stations already exist. Even overpaying for ROW Orlando style would still be cheaper than spending for something in the median of I-4 that's risky at best. Pay CSX for a portion of their corridor and install additional tracks on it. This will allow the set up of a Caltrain style (baby bullet and local service) commuter rail system or an statewide Amtrak (Amtrak would foot half the bill) system with frequencies as low as one or two hours. This could be set up for express service between the major cities (limited stops, faster speeds) and local service (ex. Brandon, Plant City, Auburndale, Haines City, etc.).

Who would fly Tampa to Orlando commercially??

Bizarre. Not at all sure how you came up with this. They want to you to take the train to OIA and fly from there instead of TIA . . .This is an anti-urban plan - it goes to nothing urban in Orlando

^^
It makes sense IF you're flying a carrier that DOESN'T leave from TIA...

...try Martinair. They had a short stint at TIA before OIA "stole them".

Its rather strange but high speed rail in Florida was mentioned again on MSNBC today as one of the potential areas of service. This is the second or third I've heard it mentioned on one of the national cable news channels, so it must be somewhat serious.

On routing, it would be a waste to bypass Disney and OIA and run to DT Orlando. For the ordinary businessman, its too short a drive to seriously consider taking rail. However, OIA is a much bigger international destination (check flight schedules if you doubt me). Virgin has several direct flights a week to OIA. Many, many tourists fly into OIA and then drive to Tampa (if they come at all). So linking the airport to Tampa makes sense than routing through DT Orlando. As it would increase the probability Karl from Sussex would have to rent a car at OIA to drive to Disney and then just skip the trip to Tampa since he and his family in all likelihood were planning on Disney for the vacation and not Tampa and its attractions. The extra effort involved makes Tampa less attractive.

Disney is a no-brainer as it makes Tampa more attractive if Barry from Blighty knows that if he flies into Orlando he can then take the train to Tampa for a few days on the beach and then take the train back to Disney and its resorts for the kids and then just take the train back to the airport with minimal rental car use necessary (Tampa only basically). It also makes sense for tourists to Tampa. My family would have loved to skip the car trip to Disney from Tampa two weeks ago and jumped a train to Disney. If such a train existed but bypassed Disney its use would be severely limited.

Having the routing go to the major destinations makes the most sense. That is how light rail is laid out, it runs where the people go. My guess is there is much more Orlando to Tampa tourist traffic than Orlando to Tampa general business traffic. We aren't talking about the Northeast Business Corridor here, its Tampa and Orlando.

Bizarre. Not at all sure how you came up with this. They want to you to take the train to OIA and fly from there instead of TIA . . .This is an anti-urban plan - it goes to nothing urban in Orlando
My fault I misunderstood you, but yes it is an anti-urban plan, especially a loss for Orlando. On the other hand look at all the empty land around OIA, there is a possibility for new urbanism. My point was that its not about being urban it's about getting maximum use of the HSR which would be better at Disney or OIA.

Three words: Intermodal Transit Hub.

Since when is one form of transit the end of a trip? You fly to another city -- do you expect the AIRPORT to be downtown too? No, you hop in a car or rent a cab, take a express bus and what not. That's what NORMAL people tend to do at least.

Every time one type of rail or another is discussed the logic of both pro and con people seem to address things as if the plan starts and ends with rail. Everything else stays the same. Logistics and support be damned.

Open land near OIA? A high speed train linking other florida cities that doesn't go downtown? A city that needs to improve mass transit? Opportunity knocks.

Two words: $2 Billion! We better make sure this thing works before that type of money is spent on an initial rail segment. Because of the costs/benefit, if it fails, don't expect additional rail systems in Tampa or any other area of Florida (outside of South Florida) to spring up anytime soon.

Having the routing go to the major destinations makes the most sense. That is how light rail is laid out, it runs where the people go. My guess is there is much more Orlando to Tampa tourist traffic than Orlando to Tampa general business traffic. We aren't talking about the Northeast Business Corridor here, its Tampa and Orlando.

You'd be surprised. There is a lot of business between the two and driving into Orlando is a pain in the ass.

BA flies to Tampa.


I have no problem with Disney stop - I have problem with the airport stop and no city stop. WASTE of money, unless you run OIA

I know BA flies to Tampa once a week, but the volume of international traffic is much more significant at OIA. I think the ideal for high speed rail would be Tampa DT to OIA, with ONE stop for Disney. The Tampa end should be near DT (western end of Ybor area), connecting to LTR connector system that would run to TPA, SoTampa and the rest of the laundry list. The OIA end would also connect to a LTR system for Orlando that would connect to DT. I just think its more likely to capture more tourists by getting them directly off the plane, especially if they are shooting over to The Kingdom.

I am curious if the plan is for a station at DT or the 275/75 apex? I know that the Florida High Speed Rail Authority was talking DT Tampa, but a parallel plan that has been in the works behind the scenes called for the HSR terminal to be at the I-275/I-75 apex area.

Steve

^^
Interesting...

If Japan can find a way to route their east-west route in central Toyko, little ole' Tampa ought to be able to find the land for a station around the existing Amtrak station.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/246/3264105931_9de514ce61_o.jpg

The Toyko photo thread is worth a look btw. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=616240&page=8

As posted on the first page this is a map of the proposed HSR line and the stops, makes sense to me.

http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/images/2c_routes.gif

Look there is even planned light rail to OIA, works out. If anything the HSR would encourage the light rail plan to through.

http://www.sunrail.com/

And no one is pointing to the 120 mph speed - which is hardly high speed rail.

Ask yourself, why would anyone take a train to an airport then take the local into town? Where in the world is that the system? Cases of the reverse are legion.

Waste of money on stupid plan - starry eyed silliness

And no one is pointing to the 120 mph speed - which is hardly high speed rail.

Ask yourself, why would anyone take a train to an airport then take the local into town? Where in the world is that the system? Cases of the reverse are legion.

Waste of money on stupid plan - starry eyed silliness
Given the distance and number of stops it wouldn't make sense to go faster. You aren't seeing the realistic aspects of this, downtown Orlando is not important in the national or international scene. There are more people going through OIA than downtown Orlando unless you count the suckers stuck in traffic on I-4 who are either going north or south of downtown. You aren't seeing that Tampa and Orlando are sprawly cities, both downtown areas don't have much of importance that would attract more people than the proposed locations. The whole point of the locations is to have more riders on the train which isn't "urban" Florida isn't very good with being urban last time I checked.

Two words: $2 Billion! We better make sure this thing works before that type of money is spent on an initial rail segment. Because of the costs/benefit, if it fails, don't expect additional rail systems in Tampa or any other area of Florida (outside of South Florida) to spring up anytime soon.

To make sure that the initial plan works is one thing, to be a condensing ass as others in this thread have been (Starry eyed for Bobby Jindal much, Smiley? Or saucy eyed for Sarah Palin?) is another.

Yeah, the initial plan has to work. But if the plan calls for local rail to connect downtown and high speed rail, that IS a plan, approve of it or not. Right now that isn't on the table and it needs to be discussed.

Does anyone have any idea of what the fare of a one way ticket between Tampa and Orlando will be?

Oh man I just had a page pulled about with fares earlier today, let me see if I can find it. Found it, the prices aren't that great, for that price at $2 a gallon I could drive a car there for nearly the same.

http://www.floridabullettrain.com/content/vision2.jpg

Yeah, the initial plan has to work. But if the plan calls for local rail to connect downtown and high speed rail, that IS a plan, approve of it or not. Right now that isn't on the table and it needs to be discussed.

True enough. However, Orlando has a plan for LR to connect to the commuter rail and OIA; however, it is in their dream plans rather than in the Long Range Transit plan. That would have to be addressed. However, it is incredibly hard to imagine that there would not be a connector of some sort from the HSR terminals in OIA or Disney to the SunRail stations in the area. Even if it were a bus.

Steve

Ok, the $9.60 cost for Tampa to Orlando looks cheap to me. The 56 minute travel time however is not much better than by car. So essentially it becomes more of a tourist mover, which isn't a bad thing if it keeps all those extra rental cars off the road, than a serious alternative to residents coming and going on business.

56 min to OIA is a good time to me. I mean, I can get from my house in Wesley Chapel to Epcot in just about an hour (in no traffic), so the added distance from Tampa to OIA makes that a good time, IMHO. It takes me about 1.45 hours to get to OIA. A major consideration though is the cost savings one would get to use the HSR to get to and from OIA rather than parking in their long term lots. One can easily get a cab or be dropped off at the station in Tampa to get a flight at OIA. The cost savings from parking alone would literally be in the tens to hundreds of dollars. As has already been noted, OIA is far superior to TIA for international flights (but I much prefer Tampa's airport to OIA).


Steve

There is more to travelling by train than the time aspect. Business people riding the train can use the time to read stuff and get prepared for meetings etc. Also, for many people the train is a comfortable option to avoid traffic and don't forget the people who don't have a drivers license.

One thing I could never understand is that Florida DEPENDS on Tourism, why wouldnt there be a convenient method to tour the entire state if one chooses to do so..I know when I visit Europe, its nice to spend a few days in oen city, hop on a train, and visit antoher city, etc....im sure tourists would love to do the same, but now they have to rent a car in order to do so...

Right - city to city - not feeding OIA from all over Florida

Actually, if you compare the time and distance between London and Maidstone to Tampa and Orlando, We have a way faster time than they do. And their time isn't really that bad. Add a couple stops and still we have a good pace compared to them.

Reality sets in....

$8 Bil. of Stimulus to Go to Trains, but Not Bullet-Style

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=LL&Date=20090228&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=902280346&Ref=AR&Profile=1410&MaxW=600&border=0

By MICHAEL COOPER
THE NEW YORK TIMES

It may be the longest train delay in history: More than 40 years after the first bullet trains zipped through Japan, the United States still lacks true high-speed rail. And despite the record $8 billion investment in high-speed rail added at the last minute to the new economic stimulus package, that may not change any time soon.

That money will not be enough to pay for a single bullet train, transportation experts say. And by the time the $8 billion gets divided among the 11 regions across the country that the government has designated as high-speed rail corridors, they say, it is unlikely to do much beyond paying for long-delayed improvements to passenger lines, and making a modest investment in California's plan for a true bullet train.

In the short term, the money - inserted at the 11th hour by the White House - could put people to work improving tracks, crossings and signal systems.

That could help more trains reach speeds of 90 to 110 miles per hour, which is much faster than they currently go. It is much slower, however, than high-speed trains elsewhere, like the 180 mph of the newest Japanese bullet train.

full article: http://www.theledger.com/article/20090228/NEWS/902280346/1410?Title=-8-Bil-of-Stimulus-to-Go-to-Trains-but-Not-Bullet-Style

^^
Bye bye HSR! :ohno:

I think well call this as DELAYED INDEFINITELY, if at best.


And once again, Florida is sent 20 years back when it comes to infrastructure...and back to square one...hoping that Iorio will push LRT in Tampa.

^^Keep dreaming lol.

^^
You still think there's hope for this? I certainly don't think so. If at best, we might get an intercity rail line that is shared on the same tracks as CSX. That'll be so much fun with the liability issue, NOT. :bash:

If you work with Amtrak, you won't have to deal with the liability issue.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7295-amtrak13.jpg

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7294-amtrak03.jpg

^^
The problem is, the state doesn't want to deal with Amtrak. They're too stupid to realize that and would rather get a cheep bargain from CSX instead. And I just posted on the Orlando CR/Sunrail thread that Dockery is still making a mess out of Sunrail.

Nonetheless, I think our bullet train has just been derailed again....for now anyways.

And its still disappointing to see that gulf coast leg inoperable. It must have been too much to maintain, plus the hurricanes.

An Amtrak corridor service would not replace the need for commuter rail in Tampa, Orlando and other Florida cities. In California, Amtrak's Pacific corridor uses the same rails as the Coaster (San Diego) and Metrolink (LA) commuter rail systems. However, it could be used as express train service linking Florida's major cities together. Plus, Amtrak would cover half the costs to build the needed track capacity for efficient passenger service. Piggy backing off of Amtrak's investment would lesson the cost for commuter rail systems in Orlando, Jax and Tampa. Unfortunately, it does appear the state is more interested in making things more difficult than they have to be (ex. high speed rail in the middle of I-4).

As for Dockery, I think she'll lose this time around. The area she represents is now for it, so she's on an island by herself.

^^
Exactly, the state has no interest in Amtrak. They want the cheeper piece of the pie, so they'll continue to go with CSX.

I'm still undecided on this. What should we worry about first? Making sure that every city has a laid out and constructive light rail system or connecting Miami to Tampa to Orlando to Jax to Pensacola? What will be more beneficial? What one will work better? Is the plan we have now for a high speed rail throughout Florida efficient enough for the state or should we look for better options? Can we wait another 5 more years before deciding what to do? So many questions that should be answered, but yet haven't.

^^
You still think there's hope for this? I certainly don't think so. If at best, we might get an intercity rail line that is shared on the same tracks as CSX. That'll be so much fun with the liability issue, NOT. :bash:
No I don't, I said keep dreaming about the light rail.

Oh, that. Of course we can only keep hoping that something is done. Even though its highly unlikely at this point. the backing for LRT may be growing, but its simply too slow. And by the time things get into motion, Iorio will be long gone from office and the next mayor will likely push rail to the backburner in favor of the economy.

I think Tampa will be one of the last major Florida cities to get light rail, at least as of now. I think Orlando will be the next city to get light rail, they have a nice walkable downtown, and being there on a Sunday I saw quite a bit of something you don't see in downtown Tampa on Sunday, people! Add that to the stupid planning of our leaders and the people living here who think they live in a small town.

SunRail will definitely be first, as they are further along than Tampa. But I do agree, our govt is too stupid and incompetent to realize just about anything positive around here.

I wouldn't blame the city government altogether. Pam Iorio pushes the subject as hard as she can. However she had to put together the pieces from her predecessors.

I would blame the County commission who destroyed the last attempt to get the rail built in the 90s. Tampa lost its bid for a grant from the federal government because the county comissiones did not supprt the project. The money went to Charlotte instead. 20 years of sustainable development lost.

^^I agree in fact its the residents too, bringing up again the small town mentality many residents had/have. We had a very nice highway system planned for Tampa Bay in the 70's and people bitched until it was gone. Who knows how many people complained about rail.

Even though we won't see the bullet train in Florida for quite sometime, I've had the opportunity to ride such a train in Europe. Below is a short video of the Thallys, which runs through parts of the continent. This particular train was running from Brussels, Belgium to Paris, France. You can see that the train is literally blowing past this freeway at speeds of about 300km/h (186mph). Towards the end of the video, the train briefly slows down some, but after I ended the video, it sped up again. I think there was an awkward curve on the track and the train had to slow down some for safety reasons.

Nw-CL4mgR_k

Its funny how you mentioned the "small town mentality" I-275. This seems to especially be the case of the elders who complain about.....well everything that's going on here. Too many people don't realize that rail is a good thing and that halting such improvements make things worse. I ran into a young TSA inspector (22 years old in fact) at the D.C. Dulles Airport who used to live in the Bay Area. He told me briefly of his bad experience in the area, saying that the weather was too hot and there were too many old people who complained endlessly. Personally, I don't blame him for leaving FL.

^^I agree, we've lost out on many things due to complaining, most of the highway needed in Tampa Bay were killed by idiot residents. North Pinellas County has bad traffic because nobody wanted artery roads near their neighborhood. Most people in Florida are cheap, they don't want to spend money so the wages are low, the cost of living used to be low. There are endless examples of the shear stupidity of the residents here, frankly I don't blame people for not liking Florida, there are so many negatives to living here as beautiful as things look here, when it comes to living, commuting, and working its not that great.

Well, Sunrail is going to be on hold thanks to some good ol' politics. I guess FL will continue to go nowhere when it comes to rail. :ohno:

Florida High-Speed Rail Champion Dockery Resigns

By Bill Rufty
Ledger POLITICAL EDITOR

Published: Monday, April 6, 2009 at 12:01 a.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 at 1:27 a.m.

LAKELAND | C.C. "Doc" Dockery, the godfather of the most recent attempt to create high-speed rail across Florida, has resigned from the Florida High Speed Rail Authority.

The Lakeland businessman's resignation letter to HSRA chairman Lee Chira of Orlando exhibited frustration over Gov. Charlie Crist's failure to publicly endorse Florida's application for part of the $8 billion in federal high-speed rail construction money.

Two states - Florida and California - are far enough along with high-speed rail plans to apply for the money, Chira said.

The Florida Department of Transportation said it will look at applying, but Crist has not responded to pleas from Chira and other members of the authority to reappoint members whose terms have expired and to publicly support application for the billions of dollars in federal construction money.

Although their terms are expired, authority members continue to serve until new appointments are made.

Crist's predecessor, Jeb Bush, fought high-speed rail and tried to get the authority to dissolve, but authority members refused. When he took office in 1999, Bush canceled plans for high speed rail.

In 2000, Dockery spent $3 million of his own money to get a constitutional amendment on the state ballot that required the state to build a high-speed rail system. Voters approved the amendment.

The Florida Legislature created the High Speed Rail Authority and Dockery was appointed as one of nine members. The authority selected a route for the first phase and completed an environmental report.

But Bush got the issue back on the ballot and voters removed the obligation to build.

Until the recent availability of federal high-speed rail money, the authority had not met for three years.

Dockery noted in his resignation letter that even with the DOT looking at the federal rail money, Crist has not endorsed the plan.

"Some at our meeting last Thursday saw a small glimmer of hope in the April 1 letter addressed to you from (DOT) Secretary Kopelousos (supporting the high-speed rail grant). The glimmer of optimism was snuffed out for me when Debbie Hunt, representing the secretary, went out of her way to emphasize that the letter represented the secretary's views and not the governor's views."

Chira said it would be a shame to lose Dockery from the authority.

"I asked him to reconsider," Chira said. "He is the father of high-speed rail in Florida. He is a real visionary and you know what happens to visionaries; they aren't recognized as such until years later."

Crist spokesman Sterling Ivey said the governor's appointments office had not made appointments because the authority had not met for three years. It is now looking into it.

"The governor also does support alternative forms of transportation to relieve the traffic on our roadways," he said. "In terms of federal stimulus packages, we have to look at local requirements for such grants."

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090406/NEWS/904065037/1134?Title=Florida-High-Speed-Rail-Champion-Dockery-Resigns

Interesting yet sad.....sad that his relative has been making a plea to stop SunRail :ohno:

President Barack Obama has revealed plans for a European-style national high-speed rail system that would include hubs in Tampa, Orlando and Miami.

http://blogs.tampabay.com/.a/6a00d83451b05569e201156f2eefba970c-450wi
This computer-enhanced image provided by the California High-Speed Rail Authority shows a concept view of one the state's planned trains. California is the only state with an active high-speed rail project. [California High-Speed Rail Authority]

High-speed rail has been a controversial subject in Florida since residents in 2000 approved a constitutional ammendment to construct a new system, but saw the amendment repealed by referendum in 2004 with the support of then-Gov. Jeb Bush.

Source: http://blogs.tampabay.com/breakingnews/2009/04/florida-highspeed-rail-fasttracked-again-under-obama-plan.html

^^
Interesting.

60/40 on favoring this, but it's better than the money going to more banks and corporations.

Thursday, April 16, 2009, 12:38pm EDT
Obama plan fuels high-speed rail for Tampa-Orlando-Miami
http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2009/04/13/daily54.html
Tampa Bay Business Journal

President Obama has unveiled a plan that could bring high-speed trains to Florida and other states across the country.

The plan could use $8 billion from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act as well as up to $5 billion over five years from the federal budget as a “down payment” to help create passenger trains.

The Federal Railroad Administration is expected to begin awarding its first round of grants by late summer.

The report from Obama, Vice President Joe Biden and Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood identifies 10 major corridors where high-speed rail would work, including one that would link Tampa with Orlando and Miami.

The Legislature created the Florida High Speed Rail Authority in 2001, which has been working on a high-speed rail plan linking Pensacola, Tallahassee, Jacksonville, Lakeland, Bradenton and other larger cities in the state. Although voters once placed a $2 billion commitment to high-speed rail in Florida’s constitution in 2000, Florida voters repealed it in 2004.

Other planned corridors are California, the Pacific Northwest, South Central including Dallas and Oklahoma City, the Gulf Coast including New Orleans and Atlanta, Chicago Hub, Southeast including the Carolinas and Georgia, Keystone including Pennsylvania, Empire including New York City and Buffalo, and Northern New England.

The Obama administration is asking the states and local communities located within these corridors to develop plans for a network of 100-mile to 600-mile corridors in order to compete for federal dollars. The administration says the plan to build the high-speed rail infrastructure is similar to what President Eisenhower did in the 1950s that resulted in the interstate highway system.

“A major new high-speed rail line will generate many thousands of construction jobs over several years, as well as permanent jobs for rail employees and increased economic activity in the destinations these trains serve,” Obama said in a release. “High-speed rail is long overdue, and this plan lets American travelers know that they are not doomed to a future of long lines at the airports or jammed cars on the highways.”

Project selection for funding will be based on merits and benefits. The first round of applications will focus on projects that can be completed quickly. The second round will include proposals for comprehensive high-speed programs covering entire corridors or sections of corridors.

Additional funds will be available for planning to help jump-start corridors not yet ready for construction.

________________

Potential high-speed rail corridors
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jpFQTQQYA88wTJ2CxWauePkOibMwD97JKRL80
By The Associated Press – 1 day ago

Ten corridors the Obama administration had identified for possible high-speed rail projects:

___

_California corridor (Bay Area, Sacramento, Los Angeles, San Diego)

_Pacific Northwest corridor (Eugene, Portland, Tacoma, Seattle, Vancouver British Columbia)

_South Central corridor (Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Dallas/Fort Worth, Austin, San Antonio, Little Rock)

_Gulf Coast corridor (Houston, New Orleans, Mobile, Birmingham, Atlanta)

_Chicago hub network (Chicago, Milwaukee, Twin Cities, St. Louis, Kansas City, Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Louisville)

_Florida corridor (Orlando, Tampa, Miami)

_Southeast corridor (Washington, Richmond, Raleigh, Charlotte, Atlanta, Macon, Columbia, Savannah, Jacksonville)

_Keystone corridor (Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh)

_Empire corridor (New York City, Albany, Buffalo)

_Northern New England corridor (Boston, Montreal, Portland, Springfield, New Haven, Albany)

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2009/04/13/high%20speed%20rail%20map.jpg

Stimulus money may resurrect state's high-speed rail line

By Janet Zink, Times Staff Writer
In Print: Saturday, April 18, 2009

TAMPA — Florida high-speed rail supporters are dusting off plans for trains connecting Tampa to Orlando and Miami with hopes that federal stimulus money will resurrect the project.

The corridor is one of 10 nationwide eligible to tap into $8 billion earmarked for high-speed rail through President Barack Obama's economic stimulus package. Obama's 2010 budget also commits $1 billion annually for the next five years to high-speed rail.

"This is an exciting thing," Gov. Charlie Crist said Friday after meeting with Florida Department of Transportation Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos. "We're obviously going to apply for the money."

Crist said he won't know until mid June, when federal officials release funding details, what type of financial commitment will be required from the state to get the federal money.

But the cash could go a long way toward relieving highway congestion in the state, he said.

"We're a state of almost 20 million people and an awful lot of vehicles," he said.

The first round of federal stimulus funding will be for projects that already have preliminary engineering and environmental work completed.

"Florida is closer to being shovel ready than any other corridor in the nation," said C.C. "Doc" Dockery, a Lakeland businessman and former member of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority.

The first phase would be a $2.5 billion connection between Tampa and Orlando in the Interstate 4 median. The second phase would reach Miami parallel to Interstate 95.

The authority was created after Florida voters approved a constitutional amendment in 2000 mandating high-speed rail lines to link the state's major metropolitan areas.

But foes of rail, with then-Gov. Jeb Bush's support, got a repeal measure on the 2004 ballot and voters passed it.

Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio and Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer said one of Bush's complaints about high-speed rail — that passengers would have no way to get around once they got off the train — has less weight now that plans for commuter rail are being developed in both areas.

"What we're doing now would certainly facilitate the success of a high-speed rail corridor from Tampa to Orlando and Orlando to Miami," Dyer said.

Crist said he has no qualms about supporting high speed rail even after voters nixed the constitutional amendment in 2004.

"The rationale there was that it was going to put a hole in the state budget. That's not an illegitimate concern," he said. "Thank goodness for the stimulus money."

Staff writer Bill Varian contributed to this report. Janet Zink can be reached at jzink@sptimes.com or (813) 226-3401.


[Last modified: Apr 18, 2009 12:04 AM]

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/article993169.ece

Well they better start making arrangements to build ways of getting around at the HSR stops.

I wonder how many and where the stops will be between Tampa and Orlando. Hopefully the most is 2, maybe 3.

^ Here is a map showing the proposed station locations.

http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/images/2c_routes.gif
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/2c_phases.html

So they're still going with the state's High Speed Rail Committee plan?

How often will these things run, and how late? anyone know?

^^
I would love to see trains running at least every 30 minutes, with 20 minute frequency during weekday rush hours. But maybe that is too much just to start. I don't know...

For the least part, the last trains should not depart any earlier than 9pm. 10pm would be better.

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2009/04/13/high%20speed%20rail%20map.jpg[/QUOTE]

It Seems to me that it would only make sense to run the extra 150 miles from Jacksonville to Orlando. The entire eastern seaboard would be connected by High speed rail. there is a lot of yankees that would use it to make a run to Fl. Even people from Atlanta would run down here for a couple of days with their kids to hit Orlando's parks

The fully extended FLHSRC (Florida High Speed Rail Corridor) does have the tracks extended to Jville - so it is in the plans. Several other plans that are in the works are also not shown on the map. For example the LA-Las Vegas line that may be maglev or another HSR line is not shown. I believe that they were just showing the lines that are identified for potential funding from the $8b stimulus funds.

Steve

For that amount of money you can see these trains running every 30 minutes around the country. . .

http://www.lionel.com/

Of course the Florida system includes Jacksonville, do you think Orlando airport wants to miss out on the Jacksonville passengers . .

MAY 8, 2009, 11:41 A.M. ET California, Florida Top List to Secure High-Speed-Rail Funds Article
Comments (4)
more in Politics »Email Printer
Friendly Share: Yahoo Buzz ↓ More
facebook
MySpace
LinkedIn
Digg
del.icio.us
NewsVine
StumbleUpon
Mixx
Save This ↓ More
Text
By Christopher Conkey

WASHINGTON -- Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood singled out California and Florida as leading candidates to secure federal funding for high-speed passenger-rail service.

"California and Florida are way ahead of the curve," Mr. LaHood said Friday at a breakfast gathering in Washington. He stressed that no final decisions have been made.

The Federal Railroad Administration, part of the Department of Transportation, will start awarding $8 billion in grants under the economic-stimulus program later this year to states with viable plans for building high-speed rail lines or upgrading existing passenger rail service. The Obama administration, in budget details released Thursday, said it wants to spend another $1 billion annually on high-speed rail over the next five years. Congress must approve the use of that $5 billion as part of its review of the fiscal 2010 budget.

Mr. LaHood said President Barack Obama "believes very deeply" that the U.S. should embark on a decades-long effort to establish a national network of high-speed passenger rail service, akin to the interstate-highway system launched by President Dwight D. Eisenhower more than five decades ago. The U.S. has to date spent more than $1 trillion to build and maintain the interstate highway system.

States and rail advocates are already jockeying to try and secure some of the federal transportation funding. Florida officials said they hoped to secure $1.5 billion to build rail service connecting Tampa and Orlando. California hopes to win significant funding for a planned, high-speed rail system with bullet trains traveling more than 200 miles an hour. The project, which would cost at least $30 billion, would initially link Los Angeles to San Francisco and later expand to San Diego and Sacramento. The state also hopes to secure grants to upgrade its existing network of intercity and commuter lines.

Mr. LaHood said "no one corridor is going to get all of this money" and that the DOT is "looking to create opportunities in every corridor that wants to make progress." Mr. LaHood has been meeting with many state and local officials to hear their arguments for securing passenger rail funding, including a meeting on Thursday with San Francisco mayor and California gubernatorial candidate Gavin Newsom.

Mr. Obama unveiled the administration's general approach to spending the $13 billion in transport funding last month. The Federal Rail Administration is expected to release more formal criteria for states to apply for funds in the weeks ahead. Still, Mr. LaHood said he had gained some early impressions through his meetings with state officials.

California is "way, way, way ahead," he said. As for the Midwest, where many officials are hoping to place Chicago at the center of a high-speed rail network stretching to St. Louis, Minneapolis, Cleveland and Detroit, Mr. LaHood said, "They're not in that position yet."

Mr. LaHood said he could envision funding "to get a little higher speed" for the Northeast corridor between Washington and Boston, which is the most popular passenger rail corridor in the country and the closest thing the nation has to European-style high-speed service. He also suggested funding could be used to "extend [that network] further up north to Vermont, Maine."

Write to Christopher Conkey at christopher.conkey@wsj.com

Sounds like Florida could really happen. If the money is to be split then it is almost (IMO) a no brainer to give 1.5b to Florida so that a line can be built.

Steve

AWESOME!!! a billion dollar train to nowhere!!! AWESOME!!!

AWESOME!!! a billion dollar train to nowhere!!! AWESOME!!!

:ohno:

AWESOME!!! a billion dollar train to nowhere!!! AWESOME!!!
Something tells me that we would see some projects magically get underway locally if HSR linked us to Lakeland and Orlando. First off, Pinellas would HOWL bloody murder to be connected to it, as would TIA. I also bet we would see a local transit referendum pass, since there would be a perception of such a system actually having something to connect to. What business wouldn't want Orlando's tourists to have cheap, unfettered access to the Tampa area, regardless of traffic conditions? What local doesn't see the benefits at this point of spending a few hundred million of our own collective money over 30 years, if it triggers the state and the feds to dump billions into our flagging local economy now? I certainly wouldn't want to be the one running that 'Just say no' campaign.

AWESOME!!! a billion dollar train to nowhere!!! AWESOME!!!

I often don't understand your views, but sure do not agree with them.

I think HSR will be another reason to get LRT going.

My view is pretty simple - I am a realist.

the train is a disney train - not real transit - not an urban development idea (it is sprawl machine, actually) - not really connective to anything. The reason it does not go to TIA is because OIA and Disney do not want it to and TIA is too wimpy to fight them. this plan is a multibillion dollar funnel for people to go to the Orlando area and make Orlando money - though not go to the city - bizarrely. I see no point in building something that has absolutely no utility for of Tampa Bay and people who live in here. This isn't Florida High Speed rail it is Disney high speed rail - let them build it.

I am all for high speed rail that is for people who actually live in Florida.

^^
The only thing that will piss me off about HSR is if the west terminus ends up being the I-75/I-4 junction, which some are saying it is, and not DT Tampa. It makes sense for it to go to DT Tampa, the let the LRT take over from there until the HSR can be expanded into Pinellas/TIA.

I have heard that the FDOT plan had it at I-4/I-275, but everything i have heard recently, and the FLHSRA has proposed has it in DT Tampa. I would bank on DT rather than the apex, but who knows.

Steve

The only thing that will piss me off about HSR is if the west terminus ends up being the I-75/I-4 junction, which some are saying it is, and not DT Tampa. It makes sense for it to go to DT Tampa, the let the LRT take over from there until the HSR can be expanded into Pinellas/TIA.

Why do you accept second class status - that is how we get screwed all the time.

^^
I'm saying that though the current HSR plan clearly isn't the best out there, its better than having the line dead end just outside Tampa, then shoot out to Disney & MCO.

If the HSR ends up as the first post on this page I don't see a problem with it. I may be in the minority but if the HSR isn't built I'd rather see the money go to highway upgrading and construction.

^I'd rather see the money funneled into better Amtrak service throughout the state. It would be cheaper and beneficial for more residents statewide.

Amtrak: True high-speed rail unrealistic, Amtrak boss says

Too expensive to build systems with trains going 200 m.p.h., Amtrak boss tells Illinois lawmakers

By Jon Hilkevitch | Tribune reporter
May 12, 2009

Introducing ultra-fast passenger trains to the Midwest is less important than the need for more frequent service between cities, reliable schedules that beat the time spent driving and rail connections that permit travel across the United States, Amtrak's chief official said Monday in Chicago.

True high-speed rail clipping along at 200 m.p.h. or faster would be prohibitively expensive to build on the scale needed to serve the U.S., and such systems work best only when the number of stops are limited, Joseph Boardman, president and chief executive officer of Amtrak, told Illinois lawmakers at a hearing in the Thompson Center on the passenger railroad's agenda.

"It's really not about the speed. It's about reduced travel times and more frequency," he told the Illinois House Railroad Industry Committee. "The competitive advantage is with the train."

Boardman said plans in the Midwest for trains traveling up to 110 m.p.h. on corridors stretching over nine states make more sense. He said the immediate focus must be on modernizing infrastructure to increase train speeds in the Chicago area that currently are as slow as 5 m.p.h. because of freight-train congestion and antiquated track and signaling equipment.

Getting up to even 40 m.p.h. on stretches between Chicago and cities less than 50 miles away, such as Joliet, would be a big improvement, Boardman said.

"One hundred and ten is double the national speed limit" of 55 m.p.h. on highways, noted Boardman, who was administrator of the Federal Railroad Administration during several years of the Bush administration.

"The key to going fast is to not go slow," added Tom Carper, chairman of the Amtrak board and a former mayor of the Downstate city of Macomb.

A proposed 3,000-mile high-speed rail network using Chicago as the hub is in the running for a share of $13 billion in federal investment over the next five years. The network, estimated to cost at least $8 billion to build, would serve major Midwestern cities from Chicago.

The U.S. Department of Transportation is expected to start awarding grants in September to develop high-speed corridors. About a dozen projects, including the Midwest initiative, are competing.

The idea in the Midwest is to operate comfortable trains with wide seats and large windows at 110 m.p.h. instead of the current top speed of 79 m.p.h. in most places, shaving hours off trips and delivering passengers from one downtown to another hundreds of miles away.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-amtrak-boss-12-may12,0,1724722.story

^I'd rather see the money funneled into better Amtrak service throughout the state. It would be cheaper and beneficial for more residents statewide.



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-amtrak-boss-12-may12,0,1724722.story
I don't know maybe it's just Tampa bay but we have too few highways or just plain poor ones. There is lots of catching up to do here. Amtrak is slow and wouldn't show large benefits statewide unless major changes are made.

Amtrak is slow and wouldn't show large benefits statewide unless major changes are made.

That would be the point. A major investment in the creation of a corridor service system to increase travel times, frequency of service and ontime performance of intercity rail between cities not that far apart. A corridor service would be a major change. Its a completely different animal from what Amtrak currently runs in Florida.

intercity rail

Something the HSR plan is not.

That would be the point. A major investment in the creation of a corridor service system to increase travel times, frequency of service and ontime performance of intercity rail between cities not that far apart. A corridor service would be a major change. Its a completely different animal from what Amtrak currently runs in Florida.
If a feasible plan was presented I might side with it.

But the problem is that the money available is NOT for regular Amtrak service, it is for expanded HSR. So if we just dump the HSR plan we will loose the money entirely, and likely be without either system. Better to plan on both and get at least one, or maybe even both. It is not a one or the other, and the feds are not setting asside $8b to fund expansion of Amtrak service.

I am 100% behind expanded Amtrak service. I believe I am one of the minority that have actually used Amtrak out of Tampa, but to sacrifice the HSR plan for a possible Amtrak dream is not a good path to follow. The monies available are not for Amtrak, they cannot be "funneled" into a state Amtrak plan.

Steve

If you build a crappy system that no one can use it will just wither and you will get nothing else. Better to advocate to get the priorities changed than waste the money.

But the problem is that the money available is NOT for regular Amtrak service, it is for expanded HSR. So if we just dump the HSR plan we will loose the money entirely, and likely be without either system. Better to plan on both and get at least one, or maybe even both. It is not a one or the other, and the feds are not setting asside $8b to fund expansion of Amtrak service.

Don't forget Amtrak is an agency that runs several types of services. These include intercity, commuter and corridor services. Also, "HSR" does not necessarily mean the creation of new transit technology. In many cases, its nothing but improving existing rail lines to increase the speeds of intercity trains already traveling on them. Most of the intercity trains already operating on designated HSR corridors are Amtrak.

Nevertheless, the exact terms of what HSR rail funds can be used for have not been released yet, but there is a good chance that existing Amtrak lines will directly benefit from this as well as the separate pot of stimulus money they received. Now this does not mean this is what it will be used for Florida, but Amtrak will directly benefit from designated HSR corridors that they already serve.

I am 100% behind expanded Amtrak service. I believe I am one of the minority that have actually used Amtrak out of Tampa, but to sacrifice the HSR plan for a possible Amtrak dream is not a good path to follow. The monies available are not for Amtrak, they cannot be "funneled" into a state Amtrak plan.

Steve

I'll have to recheck, but most of the HSR corridor between Miami and Orlando is existing FEC track. If so, that's an example of an existing line that HSR dollars could be used for to upgrade train travel times.

Anyway, I'd like to see Sunrail's State dollars redirected for Amtrak.

^I'd rather see the money funneled into better Amtrak service throughout the state. It would be cheaper and beneficial for more residents statewide.

Amtrak: True high-speed rail unrealistic, Amtrak boss says

Too expensive to build systems with trains going 200 m.p.h., Amtrak boss tells Illinois lawmakers
It should be noted that the guy who said this was an anti-transit Bush appointee, who is certain to be replaced before Amtrak begins any sort of roll-out of HSR. He's not even qualified to do such a thing.

You may be right, but all the true railroad guys I have connections with (consultants, dispatchers, engineers, etc.), have been saying the same thing for months. When explained in detail, they do make a lot of sense.

Yeah, the tracks can't handle it, the grades are too steep in a lot of places, the electrical grid isn't there to support track electrification, there are a gazillion crossings to segregate, bridges would have to be upgraded in many places to withstand the higher stresses... There are tons of challenges wherever someone looks...

But things sure aren't going to get better by sitting on our asses and complaining about how hard life is.

Rail upgrades will cost billions... And guess what? the cost of upgrading roads and airports are even higher, especially after future fuel consumption and pollution is factored in. This guy's job has been elevated above his pay grade. He needs replaced.

I could care less about this guy, but the points he makes out are valid.

However, you're preaching to the choir regarding rail investment. Although I'm highly skeptical of HSR's success down the middle of I-4 (it is a Disney train), I'm certainly not going to complain if the Fed's give this rail starved state billions to build it.

Don't forget Amtrak is an agency that runs several types of services. These include intercity, commuter and corridor services. Also, "HSR" does not necessarily mean the creation of new transit technology. In many cases, its nothing but improving existing rail lines to increase the speeds of intercity trains already traveling on them.
But what has been talked about for the TPA/ORL line is new tracking, not re-using. (as you state further down though, MIA might be different)

Nevertheless, the exact terms of what HSR rail funds can be used for have not been released yet, but there is a good chance that existing Amtrak lines will directly benefit from this as well as the separate pot of stimulus money they received. Now this does not mean this is what it will be used for Florida, but Amtrak will directly benefit from designated HSR corridors that they already serve.

I'll have to recheck, but most of the HSR corridor between Miami and Orlando is existing FEC track. If so, that's an example of an existing line that HSR dollars could be used for to upgrade train travel times.
Well, said!:yes: I def. agree that there does not need to be another agency, necessarily. However, at least if there were another agency it might keep Amtrak from funneling the dollars in their budget to the NE or California as has been the case for decades.

Anyway, I'd like to see Sunrail's State dollars redirected for Amtrak.
Yes, since Sunrail did not happen this year that would be great.

Steve

High-speed rail "making a comeback"? High-speed rail isn't making a come-back. It's making its first appearance (in the United States)--with, perhaps, the exception of the northeast corridor, which I believe already has it. There's this attitude that rail is "backward" when, in fact, much of the rest of the developed world has had high-speed rail for years, and it is the United States that is playing catch-up with respect to this infrastructure technology. Blame it on the car lobbies. They control American mindsets.

Um, the "making a Comeback" refers to the debacle of the Florida High Speed Rail plans. It started (recently) with the Overland Express, which died, then the constitutional amendments and creation of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority to bring HSR by 2005 which was passed and then repealed by the voters and now is "Making a Comeback" because of stimulus monies.

I think all will agree that many Americans think of rail as old technology, which of course is incorrect.

Steve

Since HSR planning in Florida stopped after the Tampa-Orlando segment, what are the chances the Miami-Orlando segment will get built too?

^^
Hmmmm....

As time passes, the more unlikely I think any sort of rail will happen. Why? Govt bickering and too many people out there saying "this rail plan isn't worth a lick of shit in this recession!" :ohno:

Since HSR planning in Florida stopped after the Tampa-Orlando segment, what are the chances the Miami-Orlando segment will get built too?

Almost 0% with the current stimulus monies. However, if the TPA/ORL line gets built there at least is a chance that the ORL/MIA line will get built eventually. Without the first line then the project is dead again until someone resurrects it.

Steve

^^
Hmmmm....

As time passes, the more unlikely I think any sort of rail will happen. Why? Govt bickering and too many people out there saying "this rail plan isn't worth a lick of shit in this recession!" :ohno:

In all due respect I have seen very little gov bickering about HSR plans, and the only person I have heard talk similar to the quote is Smiley. I am sure there are people against it aside from Smily, but the money is there and given the amount to complete our line I am actually fairly optimistic about our chances this time around.

Steve

Why exactly did the Tampa-Orlando stretch get priority over the Miami-Orlando stretch? With about 6 million people in Miami's metro area, I'd imagine there's more traffic from Miami to Orlando, than there is from Tampa to Orlando. Not to mention the millions of tourists that come to Miami annually, I'm sure would love to take a train and visit Palm Beach or Orlando via HSR. It seems like there'd naturally be more demand for an MIA-ORL line than a TPA-ORL line. Thoughts?

Honestly I have no idea. I think that maybe it has to do with the I-4 corridor always being planned to have rail down it. ORL-MIA is a natural route...but I personally am happy that it might come here first. Currently we have no viable transit between Tampa-Lakeland-Orlando, at least MIA area has Tri-Rail. Plus it very well could be a catalyst for LRT development in Tampa.

Another likely reason is cost, the TPA-ORL route costs less for acquisition of ROW and distance between the major hubs. The shorter distance makes it much less expensive and a good trial route in Florida. Selling a $1.5b system to the public/feds is easier than a much more expensive initial segment. Kind of like why transit planners show the big plan, but then start with a much shorter (and cheaper) starter line. Get the public excited about the big picture, but start smaller with chunks that the public will pay for.

It is a good thing that TPA-ORL is the first segment given the current funding debates. At $1.5b it is likely the system could be fully (or close to) funded by the stimulus monies. The California plan at $30b will only get some money to move forward with planning, it is likely the money will not go far enough to lay tracks. Any more than the $1.5 and it is likely that there would not be enough for Florida to build with the stimulus money alone since it has been stated the $8b will be split among the projects.

Of course this is all just my opinion as nothing has been set out as to what/how the money will be awarded.

Steve

Because supposedly TPA - ORL is one of the few corridors in the USA where HSR has the potential to be commercially viable. Part of it is because there is significant business and commuting activity between the two metros, part of it is the huge numbers of tourists that flock to the region, and part of it is because of the expected traffic growth along I-4 in the coming decades.

Because supposedly TPA - ORL is one of the few corridors in the USA where HSR has the potential to be commercially viable. Part of it is because there is significant business and commuting activity between the two metros, part of it is the huge numbers of tourists that flock to the region, and part of it is because of the expected traffic growth along I-4 in the coming decades.
Thats the potential I see from it, to let people commute to the two cities, however for that to work the HSR needs to be in DT St.Pete, Tampa, Westshore or TIA, OIA, Disney, and there needs to be some sort of light rail from the HSR to Downtown Orlando.

Hell, if this go through, Tampa can be the ass and advertise heavily to tourists that they can come to Tampa and still make it to Disney and not worry about traffic. Think of how much business could be lost from Orlando if Tampa advertise its beach, sports, entertainment areas, malls, culture centers, and still go to Disney.

Unless an airport is going to act as the main hub for a regional transit network, then I don't really see a need to connect HSR directly to either airport. HSR should be oriented to connect Orlando's (future) transit system to Tampa's (future) transit system. Airports can then be on their own LRT or monorail spoke into the hub. (which would work well in reality on both ends)

However, I also think that there should be multiple station locations on each end. (3 in each metro and one in Lakeland to be exact). That would enable some serious flexibility in routing, including the possibility of intra-regional commuter trips)... And the station locations are pretty logical on both ends... In Orlando, stations at DT, I-Drive and LBV... In Tampa at the fairgrounds, DT and Gateway.

See this way there are both regional and local connections made, and by providing multiple 'anchors' for the line at each end, the relative use of the system would be accelerated. And by having multiple stations in each metro, we give a future LRT system a huge leg up, by giving it a wickedly fast central backbone. I imagine that if something like $250-350mil was dropped on LRT circulators feeding into the HSR stations on both ends, I think that ridership on the resulting system would be pretty damn solid.


edit: And so far as a station being near Disney... That's ok with me, because great HSR access to Disney would be one heck of a selling point for the system, especially from Tampa's perspective... I think the key would be for Disney to be involved in such a way that ensures both sides aren't hostage to the other down the line.

I think its better to have less stops and have a local rail systems to connect you to each station. Otherwise the more stops you have the slower then system and then you would defeat the point of HSR. You would simply have a rail system.

That's how London's rail service is. It has a just a few stations for their rail, and each station is connected or right next to a station for the Underground.

^London also has a comprehensive public transport system with massive ridership. That's a much different situation to plan for I would think.

I think its better to have less stops and have a local rail systems to connect you to each station. Otherwise the more stops you have the slower then system and then you would defeat the point of HSR. You would simply have a rail system.
That the trick of what I suggested though... No train would stop at all 7 stations on the system. My guess is that no train would ever have more than one intermediate stop, and there would be several non-stop rush hour routes... Having multiple stations simply gives travelers in each metro quicker and more flexible access to the other metro. It also greatly improves the chances that ridership will be high, because on a short HSR route like this, there are greater time savings from getting riders on HSR, than there are time savings by making riders travel at slower speeds to a central point before getting on a non-stop HSR backbone.

(A routing example; perhaps one train leaves the Fairgrounds and stops at I-Drive and DT Orlando, while another train leaves from Gateway and stops at LBV and DT Orlando, While yet another train leaves from DT Tampa and goes non-stop to DT Orlando.)

The train does not go to - nor is it even contemplated to get near - DT Orlando.

That's a big part of the problem with the scheme as I see it. HSR should absolutely connect DT to DT, since that is where the transit hub is (and will be) for both Tampa and Orlando.

For those who would like to get more involved:

Federal Railroad Administration’s (FRA) High-Speed and Intercity Passenger Rail Workshops

Through these workshops, FRA is reaching out to the rail community in seven regions across the country to seek your input on the Interim Guidance we are required to issue on or before June 17, 2009, for the $8 billion in grant funds provided by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) for the high-speed rail corridors program, intercity passenger rail grants, and congestion grants. The workshops will enable FRA to discuss the HSR Strategic Plan with key stakeholders such as state departments of transportation, regional planning authorities, metropolitan leaders, associations and labor groups (under the ARRA, these workshops exclude the participation of lobbyists). We seek your input not only to provide us with your regional vision of high-speed and intercity rail networks, but to enable stakeholders to focus on the critical factors that will make this program a success for generations to come.

The workshop schedule will include the following:

1. Introduction 10 minutes
2. Overview of FRA strategic plan and next steps 30 minutes
3. Amtrak presentation 15 minutes
4. Q & A 35 minutes
5. Regional presentation 30 minutes
6. Break 15 minutes
7. Working group break-out 1 hour
8. Wrap-up 15 minutes
The workshops will be held 1:00 p.m. – 4:30 p.m. on the following dates and locations


Florida Corridor: Orlando May 21
Marriott Orlando Airport
7499 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822
Please RSVP at the following Web site : https://survey.deloitte.com/wsb.dll/5644/FRARegistration.htm

Orlando? Crap...

Even though I wouldn't be able to attend, its bullshit that they only have a workshop in Orlando and not in Tampa. If I recheck, I believe this connects BOTH cities, so wouldn't you want to include BOTH cities for the workshops as well???

Yes, but with only a few exceptions all of the meetings have been held in Tallahassee or Orlando. It is not a terrible place since Orlando is planned as the major hub for the completed system. With that said though, since most meetings have been held in those cities it would be nice of them to branch out to the other nodes.

Steve

I guess they figure Orlando is a central location. Btw, this thing is much more than how to develop the link between Tampa and Orlando. The overall plan is going to impact the rest of the State as well.

From Jacksonville's end, the city is the rail gateway, hub and access point to destinations north and west of Florida. If HSR goes forward in Florida, it can't rely on Disney traffic only. It will need Amtrak or whoever, to feed it and the Miami extension with riders from the north, thus the title HSR And Intercity Passenger Rail Workshop.

Why are you surprised - it is Orlando centric - I keep saying that and you guys just don't seem to get it. You are not relevant in the eyes of the planners. You are the irrelevant peons paying to go to Orlando.

^I'm not sure what the objection is to...

Orlando's the only realistic option for the hub of a statewide hub-and-spoke system. It certainly wouldn't make any sense to have the state hub in Tampa, Tallahassee, Ft Myers, Miami or Jax. ... And the state certainly can't afford to start right out with a matrix-like grid of lines running from each city to each city. If not in Orlando, then where is the center of a transit system supposed to be in this state?

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7296-amtrak16.jpg
Although this is Amtrak's vision of future intercity passenger rail, the cities where multiple intercity lines meet will mostly become rail hubs for their regions.

Orlando will be a hub if we only isolate HSR and develop as a TPA, ORL, MIA train with no decent connections to the rail network that provides access to other states and cities. If we do that, HSR most likely fails, especially with Orlando's station not even going anywhere near downtown.

In the long run, at best the Orlando station will become a secondary stop and a transportation hub for Disney. A true hub will be where multiple intercity lines meet and trains sets are broken down and combined. If a statewide rail service is to be successful, the hub will most likely be Jax's proposed JTC, simply because that's Florida's rail gateway and all rail lines in Central & South Florida end up in Jax before combining with lines running to New Orleans, Atlanta, DC and the rest of the country.

Yes - orlando would be a central point. Yes Jax may be too. So what - that does not excuse the lack of city to city rail in the plan - Orlando airport should not be the central point. The plan should not be the Disney train.

Yes - orlando would be a central point. Yes Jax may be too. So what - that does not excuse the lack of city to city rail in the plan - Orlando airport should not be the central point. The plan should not be the Disney train.

Agreed. Although if Orlando were to build something similar to Miami's Central Station that's currently under construction next to MIA next to MCO, then it'd make more sense. With a central station at MCO, high speed rail and a future SunRail, would make sense there.

I agree that it needs to go city to city, but unfortunately what has been drawn up and is being shopped for immediate funding, won't be heading anywhere near DT Orlando.

Btw, isn't Orlando's new downtown intermodal center their version of Miami's Central Station? The only transit mode it will missing is this HSR train down the middle of I-4 & the Bee Line. I wonder why Orlando hasn't questioned this?

This is a real question: How do we know that there will not be a stop in DT Orlando when the system is expanded to Jax or Miami? Most arguments against the line assume there will not be a station there, but do we know there will not be?

Steve

^Because the Miami extension is planned to go from OIA, down the Bee Line to either I-95 or the FEC corridor and head south to Miami. Amtrak will still be on the CSX A line, but that station is located a few miles south of downtown Orlando. Typing this up, Orlando really does have a mess on their hands. It will be interesting to see what solution they come up with since Sunrail was shot down.

Because that is the plan - because it is not about Orlando downtown - it is about Disney and the Airport.

Again though, do we have any real knowledge if there will be a stop in DT Orlando on the northbound train to Jax? I do not think anyone on this board really knows. Amtrak is indeed just south of DT, but who is to say that they would share the same track with the HSR? we do not know. Heck, we do not even know if the HSR is going to use Tampa Union Station. What I am getting at is that it seems the objections to DT Orlando being left out are premature - we really do not know.

Steve

Because that is the plan - because it is not about Orlando downtown - it is about Disney and the Airport.

The TPA-ORL is about Disney and OIA, we do not know about ORL-JAX.

Steve

Why would it be different?
Look at the map - is there any indication at all that they even contemplate ever going to Orlando DT?
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/images/2c_routes.gif

Why can't you accept to obvious? It is a stupid plan.

Why would it be different?
Look at the map - is there any indication at all that they even contemplate ever going to Orlando DT?
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/images/2c_routes.gif

Why can't you accept to obvious? It is a stupid plan.

Why can't you read what I wrote?

I am talking about the North bound route to Jax. They have to go north somehow. That map only shows the TPA-ORL route; it could EASILY take a jog north to the edge of DT.

Steve

Again though, do we have any real knowledge if there will be a stop in DT Orlando on the northbound train to Jax? I do not think anyone on this board really knows. Amtrak is indeed just south of DT, but who is to say that they would share the same track with the HSR? we do not know.

Heck, we do not even know if the HSR is going to use Tampa Union Station. What I am getting at is that it seems the objections to DT Orlando being left out are premature - we really do not know.

Steve

This is what we do know. Florida's officially designated HSR corridors run from Tampa to Miami. In addition, at some point down the road, HSR will come to Jax, via the Southeast corridor.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/ResourceImages/Oct18FRAmap.jpg
http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/31



In Florida, the first phase will not go anywhere near downtown Orlando.

http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/images/2c_routes.gif

link: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/2d_projects.html



Phase II, between Orlando and Miami will not go anywhere near downtown Orlando.

link: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/uploaddocuments/p25/Exec%20Summary%20FINAL1.pdf

At this point, its iffy at best if anything outside of the Tampa/Orlando link gets off the drawing board. However, based on the information and studies presented so far, unless officials do a complete 180 on what's been planned so far, its clear that high speed rail will not be going through downtown in the next few decades.

Why can't you read what I wrote?

I am talking about the North bound route to Jax. They have to go north somehow.

Most likely, your link to the north will be Amtrak, which already runs on the CSX A line. Remember, designated HSR corridors are corridors, not a specific rolling stock designation. For all we know, Amtrak could be providing service along these designated corridors like they do along the Northeast Corridor. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait to the feds explain in further detail what the money can be used for. That's expected to happen sometime this summer.

That map only shows the TPA-ORL route; it could EASILY take a jog north to the edge of DT.

Steve

Its not going to jog. Throughout the entire planning process, they have been counting on connecting Disney to MCO. That link provides them with a designated user base. That's why Disney has been able to toss their weight around in the planning process. They can't count on that by going to DT Orlando over MCO. Then if you're goal becomes to link DTs to DTs and to cater to everyday commuters, you'll discover HSR is not the proper answer to serving the I-4 corridor. Commuter rail, featuring more in-between stops would be.

see below reply

Its not going to jog. Throughout the entire planning process, they have been counting on connecting Disney to MCO. That link provides them with a designated user base. That's why Disney has been able to toss their weight around in the planning process. They can't count on that by going to DT Orlando over MCO.

I am not saying it is DT over MCO. It is very clear that the system as is links Tampa to Disney to MCO. I am saying that it could go from MCO to DT Orlando on the way to Jax, in the eventual (but not for sure) extension to Jax, not in the first phase.

It is likely that the link in the mean time, or even 20 years, will be by Amtrak regular long distance (or if we are lucky a more frequent service). However, it is also conceivable that the Orlando area will develop a LR or commuter system that will link the greater metro to MCO and the HSR in the process. Just as it is likely that the HSR could be a catalyst for transit development in Tampa it is likely that it could be a catalyst for Orlando.

But OK, I relent. Maybe the system will never connect DT to DT; or maybe it will via Amtrak. Regardless of the plan I still support it - even as a tourist train and a train that links Tampa to MCO/Disney.

Steve

The rail not going to DT ORL is one thing. My worry is still whether or not this will reach DT Tampa and where would the station be built. My opinion is that the DT Tampa station should be built alongside the Marion Transit Center cause that has all the bus connections right there. But should this line end up terminating at the I-4/I-75 junction, then I'll really be pissed.

I am not saying it is DT over MCO. It is very clear that the system as is links Tampa to Disney to MCO. I am saying that it could go from MCO to DT Orlando on the way to Jax, in the eventual (but not for sure) extension to Jax, not in the first phase.

Sure anything can happen in the future. However, an Orlando to Jax HSR line is not proposed most likely won't come into play until the highlighted HSR corridors have been constructed to some degree. That could be 50 years down the road. In the meantime, all we can deal with now is reality and what is being planned, designed and funded.

It is likely that the link in the mean time, or even 20 years, will be by Amtrak regular long distance (or if we are lucky a more frequent service).

True, however the Orlando Amtrak station is not located downtown and there are no plans to relocate it.

However, it is also conceivable that the Orlando area will develop a LR or commuter system that will link the greater metro to MCO and the HSR in the process.

That would have been Sunrail. In the long run, Orlando, Tampa and Lakeland will have to invest in local mass transit services to better connect their residents with the HSR corridor. If the HSR plan goes forward, my hope is that it spurs these communities to finally take investment in local mass transit series.

Just as it is likely that the HSR could be a catalyst for transit development in Tampa it is likely that it could be a catalyst for Orlando.

Right now I'd say its 50/50. This thing could either become that catalyst or be the boondoggle that kills the idea of rail in Florida from ever expanding. Hoping its a catalyst, but the planning process and whats coming out of it scares me.

But OK, I relent. Maybe the system will never connect DT to DT; or maybe it will via Amtrak. Regardless of the plan I still support it - even as a tourist train and a train that links Tampa to MCO/Disney.

Steve

I support rail and mass transit in general, but if something is wrong, its better to mention it before it is implemented in hopes that the flaws can be ironed out beforehand.

The rail not going to DT ORL is one thing. My worry is still whether or not this will reach DT Tampa and where would the station be built. My opinion is that the DT Tampa station should be built alongside the Marion Transit Center cause that has all the bus connections right there. But should this line end up terminating at the I-4/I-75 junction, then I'll really be pissed.

The Marion Transit Center would be an ideal terminal spot, if the I-4 median is going to be the ROW for this system. Significant Investment has already been made in that facility. From that point, it would up to Tampa to tie in future light rail and the TECO Streetcar line with the Transit Center. Its unfortunate that Amtrak will still be isolated though.

^Campaign donations?

Just my two cents here but I will also support any HRS funds for a system the Feds are willing to begin between Tampa and Orlando. Historically, Florida has sent more transportation tax dollars out of state to fund other states transportation needs while we get back much less on the dollar (I don't have the figures but I know I have read it on more then one occassion).

I strongly believe part of the problem is our elected officials spend so much time bickering back and forth and then spending countless dollars on one study after another that we get left behind while other areas get things done. They start with something similar to what is being proposed (Tampa to Orlando) and then build from there (secure more and more Federal funds to expand and upgrade their systems...year after year).

I say get our "system" finally started since it seems the Feds are finally supporting it and then go from there. At least it's a start and it does achieve some relief even if it is a "tourist train". At the very least, it gets the tourist cars off the highways which also add to our problems but remember that those same tourists pay a high number of our taxes which our politicians have become soo dependent on to finance everything else!

Again, just my two cents here but I think we should line up for anything we can get!

Why would it be different?
Look at the map - is there any indication at all that they even contemplate ever going to Orlando DT?
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/images/2c_routes.gif

Why can't you accept to obvious? It is a stupid plan.
I totally agree... Orlando's problem is that their leaders are trying to hijack an intercity transit solution and use it to ferry tourists from the airport to the local attractions with HSR... THAT is the core problem in Orlando...

Tampa looks ok, except the 2nd stop in Tampa should be near the fairgrounds, not in Westshore... Westshore can be hit from DT with an express LRT or monorail line later on.

Here are two interesting quotes from the April 2nd meeting of the FLHSRA:

Ms. Leila Nodarse asked if there will be any criteria that require airport to airport connections. Mr. Gertler stated that he didn’t believe that would be part of the criteria; however Florida should demonstrate that there will be connectivity from HSR to airports through intermodality.

Mr. Ray Chiaramonte, Hillsborough MPO Director, stated that light rail and
intermodality are included in the Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP). Light
rail was the only vehicle that could go to the Tampa Airport and would ultimately connect to intermodal stations and high speed rail.

Steve

The real reason is Disney did not want it that way. Can't say how I know, but I know.

Flat out untrue. The former airside B has plans including room for at least 3 different rail lines. No reason one couldn't be a HS train.

It wouldn't be able to get to the airport at a high rate of speed though, so why bother?

Cause multimodal train changes take a lot longer - and create a mental barrier to serving disney from TIA.

The problem for me making Orlando the main hub even though I don\'t think it is really described like that from developers, planner, and politicians that are working with this is that it\'s business smart when it comes to Orlando. Because people will be able to fly to Orlando to get to Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville (if expandion does occur). And they\'ll be able to get to Tampa one day, Miami Beach another, and maybe Jacksonville the next day while still staying at a Orlando hotel, eating at Orlando restaurants, and renting Orlando rental cars to get a round. If the main hub was in Central Florida it would be fair to every city and not favoring just one like it is, indirectly, for Orlando.

Route planning aside, why has there not been any thought to the same track infrastructure being used to run both HSR and commuter rail between Tampa and Orlando? Certain trains (high speed) could be run with limited or no stops between the major cities. Then another service would have trains that take the same route, but stop in communities like Brandon, Plant City, Lakeland, Auburndale, Four Corners, etc. In other words, us the system to kill two birds with one stone, aka. San Francisco's CalTran with their baby bullet express service.

IF they run on the same rails - it is not real HSR anyway.

^At 110 mph, it doesn't need to be. Besides, rail travel is not about what the top speeds are. Time is more impacted by the amount of stops and track segments with slower speed limits. What good is it to be able to run +200mph in certain segments, but 30mph in others, while making multiple stops along the way?

Flat out untrue. The former airside B has plans including room for at least 3 different rail lines. No reason one couldn't be a HS train.

True, if I go by the map I made, we could have the Tampa/St. Pete LRT, the Town-N-Country/Pasco West LRT, and an HSR line all at one location on TIA property. That and all the possible bus connections.

^At 110 mph, it doesn't need to be. Besides, rail travel is not about what the top speeds are. Time is more impacted by the amount of stops and track segments with slower speed limits. What good is it to be able to run +200mph in certain segments, but 30mph in others, while making multiple stops along the way?

I agree. We're not trying to achieve 200mph here. Just trying to get started so that Europe & Japan won't keep laughing at us. Period.

Shall we continue this discussion in this thread?
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=37557628#post37557628

After all, this is a Florida issue, not just Tampa Bay ;)

Maybe the threads could be merged? Might make more sense so the Orlando people can chime in on their end of the line....

Steve

There's nothing wrong with a thread in each place...

^^
true. just a suggestion.. ;)

Feds release details on high-speed rail funds
Wednesday, June 17, 2009

By The Associated Press
CHICAGO (AP) -- The Obama administration has released criteria for $8 billion in stimulus money for high-speed rail that appear to give front-runner status to projects in the Midwest and California.

The 68-page guidelines released Wednesday by the Federal Railroad Administration are the starting shot in a race between states to build new or revamped networks.

California's $45 billion plan calls for 800 miles of track for high-speed service. The new guidelines favor states that pushed through other revenue sources, and California voters last November approved nearly $10 billion in state bonds for high-speed rail.

The guidelines also give an edge to states that have banded together.

Eight Midwestern states joined forces to back a network with a Chicago hub.



Copyright 2009 Associated Press. All right reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2009/6/17/485868.html

So in other words, Cali and Chicago could recieve the bulk of the funding, leaving Florida in the dust. :ohno:

Feds release details on high-speed rail funds
Wednesday, June 17, 2009

By The Associated Press
CHICAGO (AP) -- The Obama administration has released criteria for $8 billion in stimulus money for high-speed rail that appear to give front-runner status to projects in the Midwest and California.

The 68-page guidelines released Wednesday by the Federal Railroad Administration are the starting shot in a race between states to build new or revamped networks.

California's $45 billion plan calls for 800 miles of track for high-speed service. The new guidelines favor states that pushed through other revenue sources, and California voters last November approved nearly $10 billion in state bonds for high-speed rail.

The guidelines also give an edge to states that have banded together.

Eight Midwestern states joined forces to back a network with a Chicago hub.



Copyright 2009 Associated Press. All right reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2009/6/17/485868.html

So in other words, Cali and Chicago could recieve the bulk of the funding, leaving Florida in the dust. :ohno:

We need to band together w/ Georgia and the rest of the southeast and create a 'hub'. There is no link to the NE and the rest of the country from Orlando according to the map a few posts back. Why would they give money to just a interstate route.
http://www.fra.dot.gov/ResourceImages/Oct18FRAmap.jpg

So in other words, Cali and Chicago could recieve the bulk of the funding, leaving Florida in the dust. :ohno:
That would jibe well with historical trends.

Lets see if California would vote the same way knowing that their state is more empty in money than a sperm bank robbed by Octomom.

Indeed.
I would not give up yet, plenty of powerful people have spoken in favor of the Florida proposal. We still have a huge leg up by being the furthest along in the planning process.

Steve

^^
I agree with you there Steve, but my fear is how much funding the FL project will get and what that will allow for.

Just got this email:
Thank you for contacting Governor Charlie Crist regarding commuter rail.
Governor Crist wants to know how people feel about the many issues we face and asked that I respond on his behalf.

Florida's future economic success depends on a strong infrastructure that accommodates growth and the needs of businesses while protecting our environment. Governor Crist believes that commuter rail is an economically sound way to provide our citizens with congestion relief while safeguarding our environment from the effects of global climate change.

The Governor's support for the expansion of commuter rail is based in part on information provided by the American Public Transportation Association which indicates that every dollar invested in public transportation generates $6 in local economic activity, and investment in commuter rail provides the added benefit of reducing congestion and travel times for commuters while enhancing public safety by reducing the number of traffic accidents. The cost of traveling to and from work is reduced and businesses benefit from the increased productivity of their employees.

Governor Crist strongly believes that commuter rail should be included among the list of available options for meeting the transportation needs of communities throughout the state. He looks forward to working with Florida's Congressional Delegation, the Legislature, the Florida Department of Transportation and local governments to transform our economy and expand transportation options for our citizens by providing Floridians with the benefits of commuter rail.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact Governor Crist. He appreciates the opportunity to consider your thoughts regarding commuter
rail and its impact on the future of our state. For information about
the Governor's initiatives and to subscribe to Governor Crist's weekly newsletter, "Notes from the Capitol," please visit www.flgov.com and click on "Subscribe to Notes from the Capitol."

Sincerely,

Warren Davis
Office of Citizen Services

^^
That's very interesting. I really hope all this rail stuff goes through...

Doesn't Crist leave next year? We should also start emailing/contacting candidates on the matter aswell.

^^
Most definitely. I don't know about McCollum, but I think Sink will jump on the HSR bandwagon rather quickly.

By Janet Zink, Times Staff Writer
In Print: Tuesday, July 7, 2009

TAMPA — This week marks a major milestone in Florida's quest for high-speed rail.

State transportation officials will submit their first application for billions in federal stimulus money to help pay for a rail line connecting Tampa and Orlando.

The line is considered a top contender in the competition for $8 billion attached to President Barack Obama's vision for "world-class passenger rail" in 10 major corridors, including Florida. Obama has pledged another $1 billion for high-speed rail for each of the next five years.

Lee Chira, chairman of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority, sees this as a "one-time opportunity."

"If we don't get on this system now we'll never have it in Florida in our lifetime," he said.

If the state is successful in its bid, money could start flowing as early as September for the $2.5 billion Tampa connection, which could be completed in four years, creating 15,000 jobs, Chira said. The line would eventually connect Tampa to Orlando, Miami and Jacksonville.

Chira said the first leg could be completed with $1.5 billion from the federal government and $1 billion from private investors who have previously expressed interest in the project.

In a news conference last month, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood singled out Florida and California — where the line would connect San Diego to Sacramento and San Francisco — as being "way ahead of the curve" with their plans, which means they could quickly meet Obama's goal of creating jobs.

In Florida, environmental and ridership studies have been completed. The right-of-way for the tracks is largely in place, with plans to run trains in the median of Interstate 4. Land for stations already has been committed in downtown Tampa — on the site of the former Morgan Street jail — and in Lakeland, Disney World and the Orlando International Airport.

Much of the project's development began years ago, when voters in 2000 approved a bullet train for the state and four years later squashed it with backing from then-Gov. Jeb Bush.

Federal railroad authorities, at the request of state officials, recently released $4 million remaining in the defunct bullet train budget to update the plans.

But is Florida ready for high-speed rail?

With no regional rail systems in place to connect with the new line, U.S. Rep. John Mica of Winter Park, the ranking Republican member of the House Transportation Committee, says no.

"Unfortunately, Florida has had so many unsuccessful fits and starts that their reputation for falling down on major infrastructure projects is probably going to be a detriment," he said.

He points to the bullet train reversal and the Central Florida light rail project sidetracked by Tallahassee lawmakers who bickered over liability issues in the past two legislative sessions.

Mica also questions the financial viability of the proposed high-speed rail corridor. He says only the link from the Orlando airport to Disney World would have enough riders to support it.

"The rest of the leg to Tampa is a dog," he said.

Ultimately, though, it's a matter of timing, he said. High-speed rail needs local rail as support so passengers can get around when they reach their destination.

His focus is on getting federal money for regional systems, including $10 million that U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor requested for rail in Tampa Bay.

"Then we connect together with high speed," he said. "Doesn't anybody get that? How dumb can you be?"

U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, a Democrat from Jacksonville who chairs the Transportation Committee's subcommittee on railroads, said Florida's chances suffer from a lack of leadership at the state level.

"The people in charge tell me Florida talks a good game, but every time they have to put money on the table they come up short," she said, saying there's no funding available for high-speed rail in the state budget and light rail in South Florida is struggling financially.

Both Mica and Brown note that California voters recently voted to spend $9.8 billion on high-speed rail in that state.

"They're ready," Brown said.

Castor, a Democrat from Tampa, sees it differently, pointing out that Florida has dedicated right-of-way along the interstate for the line.

"That's a significant investment," she said.

Hillsborough County Commissioner Mark Sharpe, a champion for rail in Tampa, sees no reason to wait for local systems to get going before moving forward with high-speed rail.

"They can work together simultaneously," he said.

Orlando's rail proposal is still in play, and Hillsborough and Tampa lawmakers hope to get a referendum on the 2010 ballot for a sales tax to pay for rail.

A federal infusion of money for high-speed rail might bolster those efforts, Sharpe said.

"Everybody is well aware that we are very competitive," he said. "We just have to kind of keep our eye on the ball and not get frustrated about past issues."

Janet Zink can be reached at jzink@sptimes.com or (813) 226-3401.



By the numbers

$8 billion

Federal stimulus money available for high-speed rail

$2.5 billion

Estimated cost to build high- speed rail between Orlando and Tampa

$1 billion

Amount available from private investors for Orlando/Tampa line

10 Number of high-speed rail corridors nationally eligible for stimulus funding


[Last modified: Jul 07, 2009 01:32 PM]

Frankly, I don't care whether regional or high speed rail starts first. Let's just start one and design them so they transition nicely.

With the kind of attittude some of the people in the above article have, it's no wonder that:

"Unfortunately, Florida has had so many unsuccessful fits and starts that their reputation for falling down on major infrastructure projects is probably going to be a detriment," he said.

Well, you don't say. :nuts:

"It costs too much! No one will use it! It's a boondoggle! It'll fail!"

... because people WANT it to fail and want the status-quo. Any challenge to the status-quo is frowned upon.

"That's how it's always been, why change?!" is the perfect reason why things nEED to change. And instead of pouting, trying to make it the best that it can be is a better alternative.

You got that right.

No - it will fail because it is a stupid plan - no matter how cool it might look the actual plan is dumb and will not work. There is no reason to build something that sucks - they could actually do it right.

The "we have to do it no matter what" attitude is the EXACT thing that makes some many projects around here half-assed. You are just doing what you claim to hate.

I do believe that regional rail needs to be completed first before any HSR, but I think we should set up a side account to fund rail after. Or atleast start construction after at least Tampa or Orlando is 100% certain they'll be constructing some sort of light rail system.

They better use the I-4 right of way...acquiring it cost millions more than it wouldn't have if it was not so wide.

They better use the I-4 right of way...acquiring it cost millions more than it wouldn't have if it was not so wide.
Hey if the rail wasn't built we could use it to build a great highway, add HOV lanes like most normal cities, add more lanes because that is the main highway for E/W. Of course that would never happen though... I think it would be mighty stupid if they completed the HSR and they had no transit in place to carry people. Hell if that is the case just give us the money for highway improvements, it will go further.

^And when there's a wreck, we're still screwed... If they can get a HSR line built from Tampa to Orlando, I say go for it. At least the bachbone for a regional network would be there. It might seem premature, but we would be kicking ourselves 15 years from now, when both ends have regional rail.

If there is no rail link between Tampa and Orlando, then I would rather see a new 6-lane toll road run from Wesley Chapel to eastern Orlando.

Bottom line is we in the State of Florida send more of our transportation tax dollars out of state than we get back. It's about time the "Feds" send us some substantial monies that are ours to begin with. If we don't get the money, another state will and we will just keep falling behind. The argument that it won't work is BS as what they have done to date has barely kept up. I say give us any and all funds available and then hold our elected leaders responsible for getting the money allocated in the best way possible for our state. It's rediculous that our metro area still does not have a decent mass transit system. It's us and Detroit and that's pretty sad to say both metros are the only large areas not yet embracing mass transit. It's rediculous and a reflection of poor planning by our people in office. It's time someone take the lead on this at a State level and get this moving already.

I say give us any and all funds available and then hold our elected leaders responsible for getting the money allocated in the best way possible for our state.

I couldn't possibly agree more.

No one is arguing with that but that's not how it works. You get money for the project and this project is a waste of money.

Smiley, with all due respect, the Feds ARE going to "award" the money to a state so why not Florida? To say we do not need mass transit is backwards thinking. We need a combination of transportation options and up to this point, what has been done is not working. If you have been stuck in traffic on any of our interstates, you would agree people would keep moving had there been another option (i.e. rail, etc...). Right now, it's either road or air travel ONLY and that is going to limit our future growth not to mention our day to day transportation problems which already exist and are only getting worse.
If not rail, what??? More highways? All it accomplishes is more spawl and a lack of concentrating growth in city centers. Look, everyone has their opinions but WE (people posting on this site), are skyscraper enthusiasts and therefore should embrace anything that promotes building UP instead of out. Saying build more roads just doesn't seem to go with what I consider the general consensus of people whom want to see cities growing vertically instead of horizontally???

With all due respect - read what I wrote and stop assuming I am making some shallow argument you heard somewhere else - I didn't even mention mass transit and I did not say HSR in general was bad - I said THIS PLAN is bad. Once it is built, it will not get fixed (like the Skyway) - you will be stuck with the inadequacies. I don't think spending money on crap is a good idea. Spend it on local rail - fine with me. Spending it on good HSR, fine with me.

If you support his crap, I never want to hear you complain about a bad road layout or bad zoning - you gotta build it or the money will go to waste, right . . . where do you think the developers will go - they'll just build somewhere else. and the road money will go somewhere else . . .

Smiley, with all due respect, the Feds ARE going to "award" the money to a state so why not Florida? To say we do not need mass transit is backwards thinking. We need a combination of transportation options and up to this point, what has been done is not working. If you have been stuck in traffic on any of our interstates, you would agree people would keep moving had there been another option (i.e. rail, etc...). Right now, it's either road or air travel ONLY and that is going to limit our future growth not to mention our day to day transportation problems which already exist and are only getting worse.
If not rail, what??? More highways? All it accomplishes is more spawl and a lack of concentrating growth in city centers. Look, everyone has their opinions but WE (people posting on this site), are skyscraper enthusiasts and therefore should embrace anything that promotes building UP instead of out. Saying build more roads just doesn't seem to go with what I consider the general consensus of people whom want to see cities growing vertically instead of horizontally???
We do need to upgrade our roads, that is more important than a HSR line that will possibly have no mass transit connections at the stops.

We do need to upgrade our roads, that is more important than a HSR line that will possibly have no mass transit connections at the stops.
No matter if we had the BEST Light Rail or HSR in the US, people will still drive, especially in Florida. Florida now is DEAD LAST in stimulus money BTW on a related note. I don't know if this should be a separate thread.

http://www.news-press.com/article/20090704/NEWS01/90704038/1075

Florida ranks last in money received per person from the stimulus package

TALLAHASSEE — Floridians have received less federal stimulus money than any of their fellow Americans, despite an unemployment rate here that ranks among the highest in the country and a budget crisis that few states can match.

"It just shows how inept Florida's government officials are," Florida TaxWatch President Dominic Calabro said. "Relying on Washington has always been a bad deal for Florida."
Advertisement

Florida has received more total dollars than all but three other states from a stimulus pot of about $198 billion for infrastructure projects and social services, according to figures reported last week by The Wall Street Journal. That total includes money Congress left for states to divide among themselves and other dollars that federal departments have already disbursed.

But Florida received just $505 per person, which ranks last among the 50 states, all U.S. territories combined and Washington, D.C., according to a Palm Beach Post analysis of the Journal's data.

The numbers raise significant questions about the stimulus program, which President Obama said during a February stop in Fort Myers would help curtail the state's rising unemployment rate.

Florida's unemployment rate of 10.2 percent remains higher than the rates of 37 other states, according to numbers released in May.

Meanwhile, three of the four states with the lowest percentages of people out of work - North Dakota, South Dakota and Wyoming - also received some of the highest per-capita shares of stimulus money.

U.S. Rep. Ginny Brown-Waite, R-Brooksville, called the numbers "puzzling."

"It just plain does not make sense to shortchange those who need assistance the most," she said.

Florida's low per-capita rate is also surprising, given the political dynamics in the state.

Florida remains a battleground that will likely be critical for Obama in a potential 2012 reelection campaign. And Gov. Charlie Crist was one of the few Republicans with a national profile who supported Obama's plan, a stance that brought the governor bitter criticism from others in the GOP.

WTF!?!??! How the hell did that happen? Man I wish I could leave and finish school in another state, this place is really going down.

haha... Nah, this is just business as usual for Florida.


We can all thank our state's congressional caucus for not standing up for Florida.

I am not arguing that we don't need improvements to our roads. THIS money is for mass transit and specifically for rail. I or we are not going to change that so I say, our elected officials should do anything they can to land this money for OUR state versus another state.
My point is we (our elected officials) should be working to get more transportation dollars to our state, PERIOD.

HSR is not mass transit.

It can be even in our situation if things were done right, imagine people driving from home to HSR Station, then Orlando-Tampa, get on a bus or light rail and get to work. It could very well be mass transit but that is if it's done right.

HSR is not mass transit. It qualitatively different - and if it isn't, it hasn't been done right. It also does not qualify for the "mass" part.

When you talk mass transit spending - you are not talking HSR, and if you do, no one will understand you.

Just increase reg rail service. Forget about HSR for now. I would love to take the train to Winter Park (Park Ave) or Kissimmee (if Disney had a shuttle) for the day and return to Tampa the same night. ...Last I checked, you can't do it.

The only thing that will piss me off about HSR is if the west terminus ends up being the I-75/I-4 junction, which some are saying it is, and not DT Tampa. It makes sense for it to go to DT Tampa, the let the LRT take over from there until the HSR can be expanded into Pinellas/TIA.



I have heard that the FDOT plan had it at I-4/I-275, but everything i have heard recently, and the FLHSRA has proposed has it in DT Tampa. I would bank on DT rather than the apex, but who knows.



Steve


Don't worry, I-4/I-75 was never going to be the ultimate terminus. That would've been a temporary station if I-4 reconstruction between 14th Street and 50th street was not complete prior to HSR construction. The station will still be located in DT. Whether that's the CBD Station, Union Station or something different all together remains to be seen. I would guess the CBD station simply because it sticks to the I-4 alignment and all but eliminates the need to use existing rail owned by CSX (which the Union Station location would have to).

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa236/heartofflorida/hsr3.jpg

^^
Very reassuring...thanks for that graphic.


(Smiley, don't be so pessimistic about everything regarding rail. I was in your shoes for a while too)

Be killer if they built all them lines into Tampa. Each line would go in there own direction if/when extended. Line B would go up to the Pasco/Hillsborough Line, Line C would connect to the Central and North Pinellas area, and Line A would go to St. Petersburg to a station close to Tropicana Field.

One thing that I might have some concern is if being so close to highway, would they be able to build a station that would also support at station for light rail. I think the city should be working with this plan with Florida to make sure that all stations can be built with a platform area for light rail or be able to construct a platform on top.

He's right tho HSR is not mass transit, its city to city transit.

Smiley, don't be so pessimistic about everything regarding rail. I was in your shoes for a while too

WTF?

WTF?

lol :lol:

You do realize that if rail is not done right it will fail and be a huge waste of money and we'd still be in the same clusterf*** we're in now.
IT HAS to face lots of scrutiny so it is done with the user in mind, not with what's cheapest or what the planners feel is correct. At the end of the day we are the ones who will be using it, and if it doesn't suit or needs or just covers what the planners thought would be necessary it will be just a waste. Smiley is 100% right. I don't want a half ass rail plan. I want a fully functional well designed, well planned rail system.
BTW: I emailed the governor that the importance of local lines is more important than city to city transit. I received an email back telling me to contact our representatives about this issue. Which is another way of saying they don't give a s*** about establishing local transit. Kathy Castor already is a supporter of rail and yet we still don't have it. Obviously contacting our representatives isn't enough.

The decision to put Lakeland's station at I-4/Polk Parkway West is about as half assed as it gets. It is about the worst location for a rail stop in Polk County, outside of sticking it in the middle of the Green Swamp. From what I can tell, planners like the site because of the width of I-4's median in that location.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=248796&page=5

Common sense would say that Kathleen Road, US 98 and USF Lakeland's proposed college campus site would all be superior locations for attracting more riders. If this is how they are evaulating implementing this thing, we are in serious trouble.

The decision to put Lakeland's station at I-4/Polk Parkway West is about as half assed as it gets. It is about the worst location for a rail stop in Polk County, outside of sticking it in the middle of the Green Swamp. From what I can tell, planners like the site because of the width of I-4's median in that location.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=248796&page=5

Common sense would say that Kathleen Road, US 98 and USF Lakeland's proposed college campus site would all be superior locations for attracting more riders. If this is how they are evaulating implementing this thing, we are in serious trouble.
It's all there in writing. A lot of people in Lakeland don't like the chosen location for the stop. All of Eastern Polk County has a problem with the stop. It's stupid.

You may be right. We could be in serious trouble. However, I want to have faith that after a few years in the closet, this plan would be reviewed for relevancy (if nothing else). A lot has changed over the years.

This is why Smiley is right. ^^
IT needs to be done right or else we will get stuck with a useless transit network similar to what we already have.
What good does a rail stop in the middle of a swamp on the side of the interstate do if there is nothing out there for miles? You can't walk to lakeland from 570 thats for sure.

^^
That I will agree with, and any stop in that location of Polk is horrendous!

^^
That I will agree with, and any stop in that location of Polk is horrendous!
We will see sooner or later.

Kathleen Rd is the alternate.
Memorial, US 98, Lkld Hills, SR 33, I-4/Polk Parkway East and the yet unamed exit currently being planned between SR 33 and PPE have all been eliminated.

It wouldn't shock me if a Lakeland station was axed all together.

^It could always be added later.

^It could always be added later.
This is true.

It would be pretty shortsighted to ax the Lakeland stop or any of the stops in between the end points. Rail is not like air travel. With rail, the stops along the way are just as important as the end stops. For this thing to appeal to more than tourists, it also has to provide decent service for commuter options. If located in the right spot, a Lakeland station could result in a significant boost to ridership. Giving the cost and the refusal to consider more realistic and economic options, this HSR plan will need all the riders it can get from day one.

It would be pretty shortsighted to ax the Lakeland stop or any of the stops in between the end points. Rail is not like air travel. With rail, the stops along the way are just as important as the end stops. For this thing to appeal to more than tourists, it also has to provide decent service for commuter options. If located in the right spot, a Lakeland station could result in a significant boost to ridership. Giving the cost and the refusal to consider more realistic and economic options, this HSR plan will need all the riders it can get from day one.
I agree with that also. The only question that remains is "Will the station be located at the right spots?"

State Has New Plan to Buy CSX Line in Orlando (http://www.theledger.com/article/20090714/NEWS/907145044/1134?Title=State-Has-New-Plan-to-Buy-CSX-Line-in-Orlando) - This is a must read. It pertains to HSR (Tampa to Orlando and Orlando to Miami) and Sunrail.
Everyone in South Florida take notice.

High-speed rail plans bypass Tampa's Union Station

By CHRISTIAN M. WADE

cwade@tampatrib.com

Published: August 9, 2009

Updated: 08/09/2009 11:56 pm

TAMPA - For nearly a century, Tampa's Union Station has been a hub for rail transit.

The two-story, Italian Renaissance revival-style station, at 601 N. Nebraska Ave., helped shape this port city, bringing in northern speculators, citrus and Cuban tobacco essential to Ybor City's cigar makers.

When it was renovated a decade ago, officials hoped the station would return to its former glory - serving as a catalyst that would usher in a new age of rail travel.

But as plans for a regional high-speed system serving West Central Florida begin to take shape, it's becoming clear that the landmark terminal will be bypassed.

Under the Florida Department of Transportation's plans for a high-speed rail line between Orlando and Tampa, the trains would run along the Interstate 4 corridor and stop at a yet-to-be-built station at the former Hillsborough County jail on Morgan Street, not at Union Station.

"It's very shortsighted," said Jackson McQuigg, head of Friends of Tampa Union Station, a nonprofit group dedicated to preserving the station's legacy. "Everywhere in the world, there's at least some connectivity between high-speed and conventional rail systems."

McQuigg said the DOT's plans would create a "disconnect" between Union Station, which is served by Amtrak's Silver Star line between New York and Miami, and the proposed station more than six blocks away. He said there are no plans to connect them.

"As far as I can tell, they DOT haven't even considered it," he said. "It's puzzling."

Don Skelton, DOT's District 7 secretary, said the new station would connect with 26 existing bus routes, the in-town trolley and possibly a light-rail line to Union Station.

"You'll be able to catch a bus or light rail to other destinations in the city," he said.

The DOT recently bought the 4.6-acre former county jail property for about $3.9 million.

Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio and members of the Tampa Bay Area Regional Transportation Authority are mapping out a proposed light-rail system that would link downtown with the West Shore area, Tampa International Airport and the University of South Florida.

They want to put a question on the ballot in 2010 asking voters to back a sales tax for transit, which, if approved, could help win federal funding to construct the system.

Elaine McCloud, Tampa's transit manager, said the city hopes state transportation officials will incorporate Union Station into the high-speed rail system.

"There has to be connectivity," she said. "It can't just be a train to nowhere."

In 2002, a consulting firm hired by the DOT to study potential routes and stations for the Tampa-Orlando high-speed rail line concluded that Union Station was not a good fit.

PBS&J Consulting determined DOT would need 5 to 20 acres for the new station and parking, and that there wasn't enough available near Union Station.

It also concluded that using the I-4 corridor would save the DOT, and state taxpayers, tens of millions of dollars in land acquisition costs and for obtaining right of way over tracks to Union Station, which are owned by CSX Transportation.

Florida is considered by some to be a leading candidate for a chunk of the money that President Barack Obama wants to spend on 10 inter-city, high-speed rail corridors.

The state has already reserved right of way for a rail corridor along I-4 and spent more than $30 million on environmental studies connected with the proposed project.

Even if the federal government decides to fund Florida's high-speed rail system, it could be years, possibly decades, before the trains start running between Orlando and Tampa.

Union Station, which was built in 1912 and is listed on the National Register of Historic Places, was in decline until city and local historic preservationists got involved.

The station underwent a $2.6 million face-lift in 1998 and expects to get $1.6 million in federal funding to improve the aging canopy over the tracks and upgrade the platform to comply with Amtrak and Americans with Disabilities Act standards.

McQuigg doesn't want to see those investments go to waste.

"This is a piece of Tampa's legacy," he said. "We don't want to see it marginalized."

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/aug/09/092356/na-high-speed-rail-plans-bypass-tampas-union-stati/news-metro/

They act as if there is a impassible void in the six blocks between the two stations--it's a short walk and if you need to connect it's perfectly doable. If this means not having to use CSX track it's probably well worth it. Hell, you can pay for cabs to ferry everyone between the two and still save money.

Not only is it six blocks (roughly) but it would be a ton of additional funding to get the line there. I suppose they could eliminate the Nuccio Parkway and use it. But to me it doesn't make sense to use the historic terminal, and I like preserving history.

I say extend the Amtrak line a bit and build a single intermodal train station underneath a very high density development, just north of the Marion St Transit Center for the busses.. Union Station's location pretty much sucks today, and since every square inch of land and right of way between the current CSX line (like from around Nuccio and 2nd), and the future HSR station will be redeveloped in the next few years anyways, then obviously it would be easy enough to run a line through there for Amtrak, and add a platform to the HSR station.. The historic Union Station hall can be converted into some other use, and the platform area can be redeveloped (which would really help link DT to Ybor along Nuccio, and help mask the rather hideous Selmon viaduct).

Well, if your goal is to serve Orlando, OIA and Disney then it makes no sense to use the train station in Tampa - who the hell cares about Tampa - especially when its own leaders are so blind.

All this may never happen anyways, even if HART gets its light rail, there's no funding in place right now for the new transit center as it is, and since our leaders are indeed so blind, California will get HSR anyway, so there....

That's okay we'll be even more behind in infrastructure here I mean who could actually not like having piss poor mass transit, highways that are 30 years behind or lack of them all together, traffic lights for every development that have no censors and are timed by a monkey. I guess 80 year old Ms. Smith won't mind since she drives from bingo, church, and the store and tourists just go straight to the beach anyways that's all our metro cares about anyways right? That is our leaders being blind... I really don't even see an effort by our leaders to get this HSR to be successful here. This could be a successful system. Orlando needs to build a LRT system and so do we to get the system to be successful otherwise it will be a train to Disney. As for the station not being at Union Station it is not a big deal, I'd hope people are not too lazy to walk 6 blocks. At the same time there is nothing special about Union Station except the historic building, otherwise you have the abandoned building from the Punisher across the street and empty lots.

That's okay we'll be even more behind in infrastructure here I mean who could actually not like having piss poor mass transit, highways that are 30 years behind or lack of them all together, traffic lights for every development that have no censors and are timed by a monkey. I guess 80 year old Ms. Smith won't mind since she drives from bingo, church, and the store and tourists just go straight to the beach anyways that's all our metro cares about anyways right? That is our leaders being blind... I really don't even see an effort by our leaders to get this HSR to be successful here. This could be a successful system. Orlando needs to build a LRT system and so do we to get the system to be successful otherwise it will be a train to Disney.

Which is exactly the point. We have a below-average mass transit system as it is and if HSR isn't built right, it will be nothing more than a Disney train. This is why our leaders, both local and state levels, need to get their heads together NOW! Otherwise, we'll all be sorry when its announced that California is getting the bid..... :bash:

I saw they started tearing down the jail recently... Progress?

Ridiculous article. The Jail site has been the preferred site almost since the project was proposed in the first place. This is just media drumming up non-issues. And give me a break, at this point there is no reason to need to transfer from HSR to Amtrak; the same Amtrak routes that serve Tampa serve Orlando. Logic says they would book an Amtrak ticket out of the station close to where they are, not take HSR to another city to book a train that is going to the same place. There is no real reason at this point to need to connect with an Amtrak train. Having a new intermodal station at the jail site actually makes more sense, IMO.

Steve

^^
Agreed.

I saw they started tearing down the jail recently... Progress?

Yes. But again, the transit center has no funding at the moment, so expect the lot to be empty till at least 2015, mayber longer....depending on the state of the economy.

Ridiculous article. The Jail site has been the preferred site almost since the project was proposed in the first place. This is just media drumming up non-issues. And give me a break, at this point there is no reason to need to transfer from HSR to Amtrak; the same Amtrak routes that serve Tampa serve Orlando. Logic says they would book an Amtrak ticket out of the station close to where they are, not take HSR to another city to book a train that is going to the same place. There is no real reason at this point to need to connect with an Amtrak train. Having a new intermodal station at the jail site actually makes more sense, IMO.

Steve
It's more about the need to connect Amtrak (assuming service remains after HSR comes through) to the intermodal station we'll have at that point at the Morgan St facility. And more importantly, it's about the need to connect future heavy rail commuter lines to that intermodal station, and to the HSR to allow commuter train riders access outside the metro. In the long-range TBARTA plan, those lines presently terminate at Union Station. Additionally, proposed LRT and the DT Streetcar are all planned to connect to the Morgan St facility in the future... Obviously if all other public transport is feeding into a hub 6 blocks away, then Amtrak and our future commuter lines should too. It makes ZERO sense to have 4 transport options meeting at one station, while two other options meet at another. (and a 7th option stands alone; Greyhound)

Originally Posted by tampasteve View Post
Ridiculous article. The Jail site has been the preferred site almost since the project was proposed in the first place. This is just media drumming up non-issues. And give me a break, at this point there is no reason to need to transfer from HSR to Amtrak; the same Amtrak routes that serve Tampa serve Orlando. Logic says they would book an Amtrak ticket out of the station close to where they are, not take HSR to another city to book a train that is going to the same place. There is no real reason at this point to need to connect with an Amtrak train. Having a new intermodal station at the jail site actually makes more sense, IMO.

Steve

Just because the idiots who are planning this thing made this the plan a long time ago doesn't mean it is wise or preferrable. Just another leadership void in favor of complacent mediocrity.

It just seems that the site is too small to handle everything. To the east you have the exit ramps to I-275 which has me question other issues. To the north you have I-275 and you can't do much there. The west area might make sense, but at the same time, you need to remember that there are plans to extend the HSR to St. Petersburg. The south can be another possibility, but you have the cemetery and HART hub in that area.

In my opinion, it's completely stupid to have everything spread out and not connected in one area. Every major city seems to be moving in the direction to have all their major transportation services in one building or vicinity. Why should we make the damn same mistake that they are fixing to only fix 20 years down the road? It would seem just like Tampa city politics to wait for the problem to occur to fix it and that is just like this. Even if we don't have light rail or the trolley in the area at the moment, having a building that is constructed to handle them will be cheaper than renovating the proposed station.

To have a station that will handle HSR. light rail, HART, trolley, Greyhound, drop-off, and cabs, the proposed site just isn't enough room. Then there is parking, which it will seem idiotic to just say that we can just use the parking lots in the few blocks away when we can build a parking garage to handle the parking issue. We will need to clear a few blocks to build such a station to handle all this. It would be like our own Central Station.

We got to enter this with full understanding and knowledge. And certainly I am forgetting things and might be getting too focus on other things, but that is why everyone should be involved when it comes to planning. Put everything on the table, even if it is the most ludacris idea ever mentioned on the face of earth.

^^
Agreed. Actually, the hub should be NORTH of I-275 in my personal opinion. Perhaps the area along where Kay St used to be.

So Tampa has issues. Logic says that you should have at least one centralized center for all the modes to access. Most major cities have figured this out. Even in this state, Miami has an intermodal center under construction and Jacksonville has one planned. The situation Tampa faces today is a result from years of horrible planning. Hopefully, planners work to find a way to tie all of these modes together. People don't like illogical transfers. If the connections between various transit modes are poor, ridership will suffer.

^^
Exactly. Which is why the current plan would likely be sufficient for the short term, but not the long term. Especially parking, as Mike pointed out.

I am not saying that Union station and the new HSR terminal should not be connected, indeed they should. But all the talk of how is rather irrelevant at this point. There are two trains a day going into Union Station. If and when commuter rail traffic is actually being planned to terminat at the two stations then we can discuss ways of connecting the two. As was stated, it is only a few blocks. People could walk. We could build a LR line down street, we could build elevated rail to the stations (think metro mover)...there are a myriad of options available to connect the two. With that said, there is really no reason in my mind that they all could not connect at the Morgan St. station instead of Union Station if it is planned properly. Union Station is really not that great of a rail station as it is not built for pass through traffic, rather it is a terminus. Perhaps it is time to abandon its use as a rail station all together.

As for parking...I hate to say it, but we can always build a garage. Parking is really the least of the worries. I mean, the plan could be re-worked to have the garage on top of the station with the rails below. There are options

Steve

Over in the Florida section they say there will also be a stop at the Orange County Convention Center - so there will be three stops (not to high speed) in one metro area and how will any of those help Tampa other than drain business form us? Suckers.

Of course, again, this isn't true HSR. But its not commuter rail either....

I have said it before and I'll say it again, the Tampa Bay area just sits and waits for things to come to them. If I was a major political power maker in the Tampa Bay area, I would say either Orlando gets one stop just like Tampa or Tampa gets 3 just like Orlando. We already have 3 locations; The Marion Station, TPA, and Ampitheatre/Hard Rock area. Espicially if Tampa puts more focus in development that area in the next 5 years. Even 2 would be fine now, since they still have plans to expand to St. Petersburg which would likely add 2 more stops. But I find it bs that Orlando is getting the better treatment because they get more tourism. But at the same time, Tampa has the opputunity to get more visitors, they just fail to act on such a move.

Agreed. Of course that and Tampa's inability to really get things rolling on mass transit connections will certainly kill this plan altogether.......

Florida leaders, community organizers to launch campaign to win federal funding for high-speed rail

By Janet Zink, Times Staff Writer
In Print: Tuesday, August 18, 2009


TAMPA — With the deadline looming to apply for federal stimulus money to build a high-speed rail line, lawmakers, business leaders and community organizers will launch a campaign today to win funding for the project.

The group ConnectUs, a nonprofit founded by longtime rail supporter and former Hillsborough County Commissioner Ed Turanchik, is spearheading the effort.

"This is a grass roots campaign that's going to be working on this and elevating this in the public eye," said Robert Armstead, a spokesman for ConnectUs.

Florida is seeking $2.53 billion in federal stimulus money to start building a high-speed rail line connecting Tampa to Orlando. Plans call for the tracks to eventually extend to Miami.

Three events in support of the effort are scheduled for today.

At 9:30 a.m., the Central Florida Partnership will host a rally at Orlando International Airport, with U.S. Rep. Alan Grayson-D, Orlando, and Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer as the featured speakers.

At 11:45 a.m., Republican state Sen. Paula Dockery will host an event at the Lakeland City Hall.

And at 2 p.m., Democratic U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor and the Tampa Bay Partnership will host a rally at Stetson University College of Law.

The line is considered a top contender in the competition for $8 billion in stimulus money attached to President Barack Obama's vision for "world-class passenger rail" in 10 major corridors, including Florida. Obama has pledged another $1 billion for high-speed rail for each of the next five years.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has singled out Florida and California — where the line would connect San Diego to San Francisco and Sacramento — as being "way ahead of the curve" with their high-speed rail plans, meaning they could quickly meet Obama's goal of creating jobs.

In Florida, environmental and ridership studies have been completed. The right of way for the tracks is largely in place, with plans to run trains in the median of Interstate 4.

Land for bullet train stations has been committed in downtown Tampa on the site of the former Morgan Street jail and in Lakeland, Disney World and the Orlando International Airport.

"The only thing Florida has been lacking so far is a visible show of support from the citizens, the elected officials, communities, environmental groups and the business community," Dockery said. "That's really the purpose of ConnectUs, to gather all that support. Because it's there. We just need to showcase it. If we can do that, Florida's application is going to be heads above others."

On July 31, U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson sent a letter to state Senate President Jeff Atwater, state House Speaker Larry Cretul and state Democratic leaders, saying they need to get behind the effort if Florida wants to win the stimulus money. He suggested they write a letter to LaHood expressing support.

Last week, Republican state Sen. Mike Fasano did just that, making more than a dozen points about why the state should get the award. Among the arguments Fasano made: Work on the Tampa-Orlando line could begin in less than two years; the train would provide a safe transportation alternative for seniors; and it would help with hurricane evacuation.

Ten members of Florida's federal legislative delegation also sent a letter in June to LaHood, showing support for the high-speed rail line project.

Signers included Democrats Castor, Grayson, and fellow U.S. Reps. Corrine Brown, Kendrick Meek, Robert Wexler, Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Alcee Hastings, and Republicans Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Mario Diaz-Balart and Adam Putnam.

LaHood will be in Florida around the first of September to meet with state and local officials about the project, said Brown, who chairs the U.S. House Transportation Committee's subcommittee on railroads, pipelines and hazardous materials.

"He's very interested in Florida," said Brown, but noted that state lawmakers need to make financial commitments to the line. "I know the federal government wants to be partners. I know the locals want to be partners. But we've got to have the state at the table."

Janet Zink can be reached at jzink@sptimes.com or (813) 226-3401.


[Last modified: Aug 17, 2009 09:43 PM]

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/florida-leaders-community-organizers-to-launch-campaign-to-win-federal/1028277

http://www.fastrailconnectus.com/index.php

Bye Bye Tampa Bay. . .

^^
That's if we don't get the support.....


Of course though, I am worried about that aspect entirely. Although there are many people who would support the plan, I'm worried about how many people would oppose it. You have many people thinking "well, what's this going to do for me?", people who fear that ridership will be minimal at best, and people who outright dislike Obama and think this whole plan will be a waste........

^^I agree there will be plenty of people who will turn it down because they think Obama is socialist so the train will be too. However with this being the best benefits they can come up with...

the train would provide a safe transportation alternative for seniors; and it would help with hurricane evacuation.

Well thats bullshit! My only reason for opposing this is the lack of planning to have transit set up around the HSR which will make the system a fail.

I wouldn't call this a total one sided affair in Orlando's favor though. Look at this little tidbit from the thread in the Florida forum:

From the Transport Politic:

...The western terminus of the route is acceptable — a station would be constructed in downtown Tampa. The route would then, less suitably, follow I-4 across the state, until it reaches the southern suburbs of Orland0, where the corridor will diverge from I-4 onto the Beachline Expressway to reach the Orlando Airport. Along the way, the line will serve the northern suburbs of Lakeland, the Disney World Complex, and the Orlando/Orange County Convention Center, near Sea World. Not getting stations: downtown Orlando and Lakeland. That’s a huge loss, because it eliminates the possibility of using high-speed rail as an effective development mechanism that can spur dense, mixed-use building. Stations near Disney World and the Convention Center are located in areas that are already mostly built up, but in a sprawled-out fashion....

http://thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/22/the-fatal-flaw-of-florida-high-speed-rail/

So no stop for DT Orlando or Lakeland. Wow. The plan is ass for the good of the whole region. Maybe the lack of the DT Orlando stop will get Orlando to want to redraw the whole plan too.

------------------------------------------------

http://www.fastrailconnectus.com/index.php

I sent an email there saying I don't support the plan because of how it puts Tampa in a disadvantage.

What more of a reason that Cali will get the HSR line. I think it is a 80% possibility now that the Florida plan WILL FAIL!

Not just because of this lack of efficient planning, but also I doubt there will be the sufficient support base that we need to really push the plan hard to the Obama Administration. There are simply too many people in Florida (including the old farts) that will find one ridiculous reason or another to oppose HSR.....