Cannot believe this is actually happening.

To be a nerd, I noticed they were running B-Sets on the freo line on the weekend. I thought the trains weren't designed for that.

NEEEEEEERRDDD!!!

*Whips out 80s style reading glasses*

In Marge's voice "PD, that's not nice" lol.

Bullswool the 'B-series' EMUs can technically run on the Armadale, Midland and Freo lines, but no on insurance-wise (mechanical, etc. expcetion between Claisebrook to Daglish) due to the close proximation of their stations and the stations themselves cannot support 6-cars.

FYI first post for this forum, so be nice to me. Please:)

We're nice to everyone Borg!



Oh...wait.

In Marge's voice "PD, that's not nice" lol.

Bullswool the 'B-series' EMUs can technically run on the Armadale, Midland and Freo lines, but no on insurance-wise (mechanical, etc. expcetion between Claisebrook to Daglish) due to the close proximation of their stations and the stations themselves cannot support 6-cars.

FYI first post for this forum, so be nice to me. Please:)

Yeah it was more the design of the trains, they were 3 car trains for obvious reasons - but yeah, because they are designed for long distance, high speed services they would avoid using them. Looked pretty cool seeing it though :)

In Marge's voice "PD, that's not nice" lol.

Bullswool the 'B-series' EMUs can technically run on the Armadale, Midland and Freo lines, but no on insurance-wise (mechanical, etc. expcetion between Claisebrook to Daglish) due to the close proximation of their stations and the stations themselves cannot support 6-cars.

FYI first post for this forum, so be nice to me. Please:)

It's safe to assume they could run them on a express stopping pattern when the stations are brought up to size.

I noticed they have started the upgrades to Mt Lawley station, the render was a little average. Looked like a glorified bus stop, they are however lengthening the platform (long enough for B-sets?).

They're lengthening the platform? What benefit would that serve if teh rest of the stations have the normal platform lengths (Unless they're planning ahead for the Airport spur)

Whilst your concerns are justified, perhaps you need to delve deeper and question the rigid planning approvals process which fails to reward outstanding building design. Having dealt with EPRA on numerous occasions they are extremely difficult to work with. Any design which challenges convention they typically oppose; be it density, plot ratios or carparking. Some of EPRA's requirements for parking near major train stations beggar belief. Great design will come when the govt agencies take a commercial, pragmatic view and realise the developer needs to make a profit in order to undertake the project. The best way to do this is to incentivise the developer, rather than reduce height or densities or increase parking or load up with additional levies, fees or taxes. There needs to be a win - win to achieve best outcomes, but EPRA doesn't encourage this and I know this becasue I was involved with 2 projects which proposed the types of innovation in design you want. They ultimately failed because EPRA erred on the side of conservatism and would not support projects which broke with convention.

Personally, I think the whole design is funadmentally flawed for City Link if all we are seeking to do is build more offices or residential apartments. To me City Link was the opportunity to move the football stadium into the city to help activate the City & Northbridge. Likewise where is a great central park with a children's playground of water activities? Activities which bring more people into the city outside office hours is what we need. Buildings should respond to great public spaces and in the City Link these appear to be few and far between.

what does this mean? challenge how? please explain.

normally when people describe their work this way it generally means its pretty pretentious and that if saying you dont like it you must be an idiot who just doesnt "get it"... :lol:

I don't think it is pretentious. It just means anything that challenges the norm. Perth Arena challenges convention.

Personally, I think the whole design is funadmentally flawed for City Link if all we are seeking to do is build more offices or residential apartments. To me City Link was the opportunity to move the football stadium into the city to help activate the City & Northbridge. Likewise where is a great central park with a children's playground of water activities? Activities which bring more people into the city outside office hours is what we need. Buildings should respond to great public spaces and in the City Link these appear to be few and far between.

you should venture out to nb a bit more often... nb is rather active, tho it still has dead spaces, due to lack of building sites in some areas... nonethaless, nb is busy... it doesn't really need a stadium to activate it... tha sporting/stadium culture is largely transient... creating a logistics nightmare by bringing a 60k people into that area is tha last thing tha central city of perth needs...

recent building developments have shown in perth that, if building podiums are designed innovatively they do encourage people to flock and interact with it... you've seen many older buildings in perth do refurbishments to add "retail/cafe" spaces at tha foot of their buildings to entice people to interact with these areas... you can't say "citylinnk appears to have few and far between" considering we don't even know tha designs of these buildings yet... how do we even rationalise whether spaces at tha foot of tha buildings respond to tha public space if we don't know what's going there?????

northbridge needs to be activated?

It's probably the only place in Perth that has a decent vibe

northbridge needs to be activated?

Wellington and Roe need to be activated.
A lot of non-utilised nothing on the immediate borders of the link. Abandoned, vacant and difficult properties.
Even if it all falls down and the link delivers nothing but a less separated city, there will still be enough potential along these streets to inspire a second wave of development.

where is a great central park with a children's playground

Oh god. :lol:

Wellington and Roe need to be activated.
A lot of non-utilised nothing on the immediate borders of the link. Abandoned, vacant and difficult properties.
Even if it all falls down and the link delivers nothing but a less separated city, there will still be enough potential along these streets to inspire a second wave of development.

no argument re roe, wellington isnt in northbridge.

for me the CBD needs the link more than northbridge, im a bit nervous about what it will do to NB, i hope it doesnt turn into an overpriced joint like mt lawley, perfect example being that it is now so expensive to open there a significant % of places there are chains. crust, nandos, lawleys, noodle box, zambrero, grilld are all within short walk of each other and id hate for that to happen in NB

I had the displeasure of having a meal at Zaferano's last night. I'd heard so many bad things about the place before and unfortunately they were all true. A got an Asahi. I thought $12 was quite steep for a pint on tap but hey, I'm back in Perth at a restaurant known for being overpriced so oh we'll. It came out and was only a bloody small glass! Service was shocking, so inattentive. Meals took forever to come out despite the restaurant being rather empty. Gnocchi main was $44 - chewy, overly oily and salty, with Choritzo of questionable quality and tinned olives. Fiancées prawn salad had pre frozen mango, her mojito came out about 20 mins after the other drinks on the table, and we had to ask twice where it was, and it was a crap mojito.

I was there about a month ago and had a really good experience. I wasn't paying tho.

no argument re roe, wellington isnt in northbridge.

for me the CBD needs the link more than northbridge, im a bit nervous about what it will do to NB, i hope it doesnt turn into an overpriced joint like mt lawley, perfect example being that it is now so expensive to open there a significant % of places there are chains. crust, nandos, lawleys, noodle box, zambrero, grilld are all within short walk of each other and id hate for that to happen in NB

Meh, nimby.

Trendy places gentrify, other places then become trendy. Circle of life continues.

no argument re roe, wellington isnt in northbridge.

for me the CBD needs the link more than northbridge, im a bit nervous about what it will do to NB, i hope it doesnt turn into an overpriced joint like mt lawley, perfect example being that it is now so expensive to open there a significant % of places there are chains. crust, nandos, lawleys, noodle box, zambrero, grilld are all within short walk of each other and id hate for that to happen in NB

i have tha same concern with all tha asian places along roe st... i think tha "old chinatown" will remain relatively tha same... i've always been somewhat surprised tha chinese business community hasn't fixed up that area where tha arch/gateway structure is... tho i suspect when perth link gets cranking tha whole area will get a decent spit and polish... not that you want it to be too sterile anyway...

I had the displeasure of having a meal at Zaferano's last night. I'd heard so many bad things about the place before and unfortunately they were all true. A got an Asahi. I thought $12 was quite steep for a pint on tap but hey, I'm back in Perth at a restaurant known for being overpriced so oh we'll. It came out and was only a bloody small glass! Service was shocking, so inattentive. Meals took forever to come out despite the restaurant being rather empty. Gnocchi main was $44 - chewy, overly oily and salty, with Choritzo of questionable quality and tinned olives. Fiancées prawn salad had pre frozen mango, her mojito came out about 20 mins after the other drinks on the table, and we had to ask twice where it was, and it was a crap mojito.

$44 for gnocchi!!!! Fuck off! Its potato and pasta? Wow, thats floored me.

Thankfully neither of us were paying. Still, it's the bloody principal.

I'm half tempted to book a table on a Saturday night and only order from their 'bread menu'. Drinks sir? No thanks, just some TAP water please.

$44 for gnocchi!!!! Fuck off! Its potato and pasta? Wow, thats floored me.

Ditto, so many 'just when I thought it couldn't get worse moments' lately.

Lol. And shit realised not in food thread.

Acc - welcome back!

Kelli - I have those moments several times a week now, almost daily.

Andy is right, trendy places gentrify. Northbridge will just get more and more expensive, and more and more sterile. Chinatown will eventually turn into a tacky, overpriced tourist trap.

I lived in ML pre-gentrification, then moved to Highgate and saw it happen there, now it's Northbridge's turn. The problem being, there is nowhere else to go in Perth, every other suburb is either now gentrified and over priced, or pretty darn average (at best).

Hang out at the local Mirrabooka Fast Food 'precinct' for some genuine ghetto lifestyle. Nothing gentrified over this way.

Re NB: Yes, there's nice Asian restaurants and a few good nightspots, but there's also street brawls, dilapidated buildings and dead zones. While I'm sure there's some here who like to talk up the faux-grunginess of the area, it's just not acceptable for what is essentially part of the inner-city.

There's nothing more pretentious than someone complaining about something they like becoming popular and accessible, bring on the gentrification. I look forward to seeing more of the recent commercial and residential developments, and the improved safety and increased activity that will result.

Re NB: Yes, there's nice Asian restaurants and a few good nightspots, but there's also street brawls, dilapidated buildings and dead zones. While I'm sure there's some here who like to talk up the faux-grunginess of the area, it's just not acceptable for what is essentially part of the inner-city.

There's nothing more pretentious than someone complaining about something they like becoming popular and accessible, bring on the gentrification. I look forward to seeing more of the recent commercial and residential developments, and the improved safety and increased activity that will result.

Northbridge has already been "gentrified".

It is now commencing the sterilisation and homogenisation process.

There's a not-so-subtle difference, I doubt you would be able to appreciate these differences, based upon your laughable comments above. *

* unless you were being sarcastic, in which case, my bad! :)

Problem is that it's a half arsed (desperation driven) gentrification, so whether you're a fan of one or the other, you really get the worst of both worlds.

$44 for gnocchi!!!! Fuck off! Its potato and pasta? Wow, thats floored me.

I just read something funny earlier from a 'user' which perfectly explains this.

"Louts who work in the Pilbara earning $150,000 for driving a truck in a circle can now afford to reach these places regularly"

wouldn't call east vic park gentrified...

I would have thought they'd be the most annoyed, when they're used to the better, free food they get onsite.

wouldn't call east vic park gentrified...

People like it though, so it's only a matter of time before it attracts the attentions of the clean broom brigade.

I would have thought they'd be the most annoyed, when they're used to the better, free food they get onsite.

Getting 'annoyed' and 'inconvenienced' is what people pay top dollar for these days. Adds to their self esteem (apparently)

wouldn't call east vic park gentrified...

It is undeniably in the process of gentrification.

I used to work in East Vic Park a long time ago, the lunch options were the corner deli or red rooster. The pub was a rough shit-hole.

It was one of the worst areas in the entire city just twenty years ago.

---------

For the record - I have nothing at all against gentrification, and I'm not complaining about it (I don't think anyone on here is).

People like it though, so it's only a matter of time before it attracts the attentions of the clean broom brigade.

In comparison to twenty years ago, East Vic Park is now like Beverly Hills.

Yeah, East Vic Park was pretty rough when I first moved into that area, which was around 13 years ago. Its nothing like that now.

People like it though, so it's only a matter of time before it attracts the attentions of the clean broom brigade.

too many asians... that could protect it from a complete clean-out... :p

Had coffee with a mate over at Daily Planet last night, good addition to the strip. Coffee was decent, though I was expecting more from the interior fitout (not bad per se, but some things just looked way out of place, like a stand alone airconditioning unit on the wall, and a deli style display fridge). Food seemed appropriately wankey (linguine with truffle oil), but we just opted for coffee.

Cute waitresses, except for one that looks like a recovering meth head (skinniest fucking arms I've seen in a long while!). I knew I liked the place the second we walked in though. Waitress suggested sitting next to the front window, as it makes for good people watching.

Had coffee with a mate over at Daily Planet

I was told it cost $16 for a bowl of Muesli.

Guaranteed, it will be a big success.

I went there the other night to have a coffee. It looked very uncomfortable for a place that was promoted as an adjunct to the bookstore and somewhere 'organic' to crash. Doesn't have that vibe at all. Ended up going to Soto instead and plonking myself on their vinyl bench.

I was told it cost $16 for a bowl of Muesli.

Guaranteed, it will be a big success.

Aye. Service could have used a bit of polish (nothing new there), but the hipsters crowding the place (by crowding the place I mean 1/5th full) are loaded, so their future seems bright.

Gentrification of Mt Lawley is continuing at full pace! Anyone know the reason for Exomod changing names?

I went there the other night to have a coffee. It looked very uncomfortable for a place that was promoted as an adjunct to the bookstore and somewhere 'organic' to crash. Doesn't have that vibe at all. Ended up going to Soto instead and plonking myself on their vinyl bench.

According to a mate who's a homo faggot poofta gay, Soto is supposed to be the true gay coffee shop in Perth. That said, I've always liked the place. Ain't fancy (ain't cheap), but it has a decent vibe.

According to a mate who's a homo faggot poofta gay, Soto is supposed to be the true gay coffee shop in Perth. That said, I've always liked the place. Ain't fancy (ain't cheap), but it has a decent vibe.

Unfortunately not that much since gay/poofta/fag/homo became mainstream.

It used to be more so, but has gone decidedly down hill the past 4 years. I don't like it there at all now, although the coffee is good. The ultimate faggy joint is Coode St Cafe in Mt Lawley.

Clarences is pretty gay-heavy. Hot bar staff too.

Soto is one of my newspaper reading cafes, it's got a pretty mixed clientele. I love that bench too, especially if you get the corner

I went there the other night to have a coffee. It looked very uncomfortable for a place that was promoted as an adjunct to the bookstore and somewhere 'organic' to crash. Doesn't have that vibe at all. Ended up going to Soto instead and plonking myself on their vinyl bench.

I couldn't believe it, what were they thinking with that furniture?

yers. clarences is so gay-nouveau i had to get out and look elsewhere...

Soto is one of my newspaper reading cafes, it's got a pretty mixed clientele. I love that bench too, especially if you get the corner



I couldn't believe it, what were they thinking with that furniture?

hehe that's the only spot for us. I walk away if the corner's not available. Surprisingly it rarely happens. btw I much preferred the old fabric benches. Shame they 'upgraded' to the red vinyl crap.

Re DP - Yes very bad move with furniture imo. I have a feeling the novelty's gonna wear out pretty quickly with this joint and they'll need to rethink their strategy.

Also, it looks like the old meza tapas place is getting some sort of makeover. wonder what's in store.

Good god, we've shared a chair.

Soto = worst poched eggs ever!!

I have been living in NB for over 3 years now and the changes going on have been for the better. I kinda regretted moving from highgate to NB for the first 6-9 months. Now I love it more than a fat kid loves cake... Currently it is getting better by the week, with new stuff opening up all the time...

I mean who doesnt love a good taco and tequila joint???

thanks for the tip. I've never eaten at Soto (only coffee) so now I have no reason to.

oops wrong thrad.

samboy - mezza is where michael forde's (cantina) mexican place will be

overall though it is going to the dogs slowly but surely. i suspect it might go down the subi path in terms of full of chains and fuck all interesting (still a while before it happens though)

Back to topic plz. Go to the apt thread to continue this discussion.

I've had some pretty awesome breakfasts at Soto in the past...

Although it looks like a lot of their staff have moved on, maybe the same goes in the kitchen.

Edit: Oops, sorry Dilz. Which one is the apartment thread????

Maybe I've missed them. Has anyone uploaded pics of the new railway alignment?

^^There's a couple of photos on the PCL website:
http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/RailProject/Imagegallery/tabid/466/language/en-AU/Default.aspx (http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/RailProject/Imagegallery/tabid/466/language/en-AU/Default.aspx)

very tragic news... not a good way to end the year for a project that has made so much progress...
Rail worker dies on City Link project

A transport worker has died after a railway maintenance vehicle rolled over him last night.

The man, who works for construction company John Holland, was on site at the Wellington Street tunnel when the incident happened about 9.30pm.

Police said there may have been a fault with the positioning of the maintenance vehicle on the tracks, causing it to roll and hit the worker. It is understood the manual breaking system also failed.

An ambulance was called but the man died at the scene.

Worksafe and police are investigating.

John Holland is working with the Public Transport Authority on the Perth City Link project to sink the rail line under the CBD.

Source (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/12475352/rail-worker-dies-on-city-link-project/)


Construction worker died after hit by train


http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/12/31/1226233/751909-construction-worker.jpg

A CONSTRUCTION worker has tragically died after being struck by a rail mounted vehicle on the rail-line near the entrance to the William Street tunnel in Perth at about 9pm last night.

It is believed that the vehicle was being taken off the tracks when it's brakes failed to engage and it rolled down an incline and struck the contractor who was using equipment further down the tracks.

The man died at the scene from his injuries.

Police are not identifying the man until relatives in WA and the eastern states have been notified.

The Perth Transport Authority, Worksafe WA and police are conducting an inquiry into the fatal accident.


Source (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/construction-worker-died-after-hit-by-rail-mounted-vehicle/story-e6frg12c-1226233760679)

Not good that people die at work like this, but I am actually not surprised. When I went over the footbridge the other day a bulldozer was carrying some long metal lengths and (it looked like) taking it down the tunnel near the demolished PEC. For it to be able to fit, it had its right tyres on the rail line whilst the other was on the ground level whilst someone walked in front of the vehicle. Granted I am not an expert, but it looked pretty unsafe.

sorry for the mass of posts, but just come across this on the transperth page:

Update: Perth Station access changes
Effective: postponed until further notice

Please note this change, due to take place on Tuesday 3 January 2012 has been postponed until further notice

In 2012 the Perth City Link Rail Alliance will begin work in Perth Station on stage one of the new pedestrian underpasses, which will connect all platforms to Perth Underground on one seamless level.
...


Source (http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/ServiceUpdates/ServiceDisruptions/tabid/128/newsid563/2389/Default.aspx)

not good news? :S


EDIT: just seen on 7NEWS - John Holland has advised that work has been suspended 'indefinitely' on the Perth City Link project.

Christ almighty. You'd think a contractor like john holland would have their shit together with regards to site safety.

Chances are it was just a freak accident, lapse in concentration etc. Unfortunately nothing that could be prevented. Of course it could be negligence, but I doubt it.

Accidents don't just happen, something causes them.

I was at the train station 8pm that night, there was chaos, the trains were interrupted, ended up getting the bus home.

Don't know if anyone else has seen it, but those rock breakers digging the tunnel are amazing, what is it they're digging up - can't be natural rock surely? But then, it didn't really look like concrete either.

^^ But it is possible for something to cause them, yet still be an accident. For example a roo hitting a car. I guess I consider an accident something that happens that is not reasonably forseeable and avoidable.

The roo crossing the road was an 'accident', but how the driver responds is another thing.

Yeah - but there are circumstances where the driver won't see it or can't do anything about it. I never get when someone from police reckon that there is no such thing as an accident. Of course there is. Someone could be unlucky to be hit by lightning or a meteor when driving. Not that I am saying in the case of this work death that it was or wasn't an accident. I have no idea.

Being hit by lightning is avoidable if you've got knowledge about it. If a person had swerved to miss the kangaroo and rolled their car, that isn't an accident, it's a mistake. You're just as likely to miss the kangaroo keeping a straight line as swerving anyway.

Safety planning is a big part of my work, I notice that the biggest safety risks come from people that have an attitude problem about it, you provide knowledge about a safe way to do something, and they'll do the opposite just to make a point.

In my experience, these are things that lead to 'accidents':

1. lack of knowledge/training/experience.
2. An inbuilt death wish by some individuals.
3. Overwhelming budget/time pressures
4. Deliberate sabotage/oppositional behaviour.
5. Lack of planning.
6. Insecurity about ability - leads to risky behaviour to prove 'ability'.
7. Poor culture at an organisational level, comes from the top.
8. Cultural contempt for any idea that is considered 'weak', i.e. concern for welfare of yourself/others.

Last trip, I had to ask a client I was traveling with, to actually stop at stop signs, on a haul pack haul road of all things - the reason she wasn't stopping was because of a mix of 1, 3, 4, 6 , 7 and 8.

Don't play semantics. Sometimes things happen that are simply unavoidable.

Not very often. I think I know more about it than desk bound people, it's quite offensive really.

But the definition of an accident for most people (as I mentioned before) seems to be different from yours Kelli. You seem to think that if something causes an "accident" then it is not an accident.

Let me try again. You are driving a well-serviced car at 10km/h below the speed limit in Christchurch as the earthquake is happening. It destroys the road in front and to the side of you and no matter whether you swerve or continue going straight there is no way you can stop in time to fall into a huge hole. I guess you could have avoided the accident by not driving (because NZ does have earthquakes), driven at 30km/h below the speed limit (in case you need a shorter stopping distance in case of earthquake), done a study of the road structure and state of repair before driving, etc. - but those things are not reasonable when you consider the risk of such a thing happening. It is an accident even though strictly it is avoidable.

In my experience, these are things that lead to 'accidents':

1. lack of knowledge/training/experience.
2. An inbuilt death wish by some individuals.
3. Overwhelming budget/time pressures
4. Deliberate sabotage/oppositional behaviour.
5. Lack of planning.
6. Insecurity about ability - leads to risky behaviour to prove 'ability'.
7. Poor culture at an organisational level, comes from the top.
8. Cultural contempt for any idea that is considered 'weak', i.e. concern for welfare of yourself/others.

Last trip, I had to ask a client I was traveling with, to actually stop at stop signs, on a haul pack haul road of all things - the reason she wasn't stopping was because of a mix of 1, 3, 4, 6 , 7 and 8.

What if 2 was also a factor but she just didnt tell you? :lol:

perhaps you didnt ask her if she was mentally stable or had any desire or thoughts about suicide. Would not knowing this about her be a mistake/accident on your part? not finding this information out before entering her car or letting her drive? Kelli you may have been a potential cause of a collision :laugh:(all totally tongue in cheek i hope you know)

But the definition of an accident for most people (as I mentioned before) seems to be different from yours Kelli. You seem to think that if something causes an "accident" then it is not an accident.

Let me try again. You are driving a well-serviced car at 10km/h below the speed limit in Christchurch as the earthquake is happening. It destroys the road in front and to the side of you and no matter whether you swerve or continue going straight there is no way you can stop in time to fall into a huge hole. I guess you could have avoided the accident by not driving (because NZ does have earthquakes), driven at 30km/h below the speed limit (in case you need a shorter stopping distance in case of earthquake), done a study of the road structure and state of repair before driving, etc. - but those things are not reasonable when you consider the risk of such a thing happening. It is an accident even though strictly it is avoidable.

Oh well, let's not try to improve anything at all then, because it's just an accident. That's what you're saying.

Besides, that story proves my point. The stopping distance at 50kph is about half that of 60kph, so your chances of avoiding a situation are much better at 50kph. That's the whole idea, it's thinking at an individual level, whereas over a whole population over time you've got the opportunity to reduce the number of accidents by knowing these things. If the crack opens and swallows you up, oh well, but how often do those chance things occur compared to avoidable situations?

What if 2 was also a factor but she just didnt tell you? :lol:

perhaps you didnt ask her if she was mentally stable or had any desire or thoughts about suicide. Would not knowing this about her be a mistake/accident on your part? not finding this information out before entering her car? Kelli you may have been a potential cause of a collision :laugh:(all totally tongue in cheek i hope you know)

I can pick those people, actually sometimes I think some of them are just looking for attention.

I never thought I'd see the day when kelli takes an even harder stance on individual responsibility, but even i think some accidents are unavoidable.

Being hit by lightning is avoidable if you've got knowledge about it. If a person had swerved to miss the kangaroo and rolled their car, that isn't an accident, it's a mistake. You're just as likely to miss the kangaroo keeping a straight line as swerving anyway.

Safety planning is a big part of my work, I notice that the biggest safety risks come from people that have an attitude problem about it, you provide knowledge about a safe way to do something, and they'll do the opposite just to make a point.

In my experience, these are things that lead to 'accidents':

1. lack of knowledge/training/experience.
2. An inbuilt death wish by some individuals.
3. Overwhelming budget/time pressures
4. Deliberate sabotage/oppositional behaviour.
5. Lack of planning.
6. Insecurity about ability - leads to risky behaviour to prove 'ability'.
7. Poor culture at an organisational level, comes from the top.
8. Cultural contempt for any idea that is considered 'weak', i.e. concern for welfare of yourself/others.

Last trip, I had to ask a client I was traveling with, to actually stop at stop signs, on a haul pack haul road of all things - the reason she wasn't stopping was because of a mix of 1, 3, 4, 6 , 7 and 8.

Kelli, what about human error through say, lapses of concentration?

Fatigue management is a big issue with my work (aircraft engineer) which is down to individual responsibility.

The job requires shift work/long hours etc but, for example, if my aircon breaks at home preventing me from getting a good nights sleep, should I be calling in sick the following day to avoid a potential accident(safety incident)?

I'm down with that!!

Also, would you know what to do in that situation to best improve your chances of survival Bart?

Kelli, what about human error through say, lapses of concentration?

Fatigue management is a big issue with my work (aircraft engineer) which is down to individual responsibility.

1, 3, 7 and 8? What kind of shifts do you work? Fatigue is given as a cause of accidents all the time, but there is always something else at the core that has resulted in it, often organisation operations/culture. There was reason behind the 37 hour week.


The job requires shift work/long hours etc but, for example, if my aircon breaks at home preventing me from getting a good nights sleep, should I be calling in sick the following day to avoid a potential accident(safety incident)?

I'm down with that!!

I'm down with that too, especially if it's my plane you're working on!

Oh well, let's not try to improve anything at all then, because it's just an accident. That's what you're saying.

Besides, that story proves my point. The stopping distance at 50kph is about half that of 60kph, so your chances of avoiding a situation are much better at 50kph. That's the whole idea, it's thinking at an individual level, whereas over a whole population over time you've got the opportunity to reduce the number of accidents by knowing these things. If the crack opens and swallows you up, oh well, but how often do those chance things occur compared to avoidable situations?

I am not saying to not improve the way things are done - but that doesn't make some accidents REASONABLY avoidable. Like I said, avoiding the example I gave it is possible to avoid if you take it to the extreme. eg why stop at 50km/h - why not go to 30km/h in a 60km/h zone? (although that is also probably causing incidents in itself as other road users don't reasonably expect a diver to be doing half the speed limit).

I have heard the police say there is no such thing as an "accident". That is patently false. Yes - people on the whole need to pay more attention, not use mobiles when diving, don't do u-turns at traffic lights, etc. But that is risk reduction - a totally different issue on whether accidents actually occur.

What do you think the proportion of genuinely unavoidable things are though? Small.

For a small thing, it's certainly got an army of defenders.

It seems to be a matter of definition.

Genuinely (and reasonably) unavoidable by all people involved in an incident - I agree this would be small. But then that doesn't count incidents that are reasonably unavoidable by one of the parties involved. For example being hit by someone going through a red light - even if you look both ways whilst going through the green. The innocent party could do little to reasonably avoid the situation, even though the incident was definitely avoidable if the red light wasn't run - even though as far as the innocent party is concerned it was an accident (on their part).

Anyway back on topic - I am surprised at the speed of the work being done on the railway sinking (at least until the fatal incident that happened)

1, 3, 7 and 8? What kind of shifts do you work? Fatigue is given as a cause of accidents all the time, but there is always something else at the core that has resulted in it, often organisation operations/culture. There was reason behind the 37 hour week.




I'm down with that too, especially if it's my plane you're working on!

Two early shifts 0415 to 1515 and two late shifts 1300 to 0000, then four days off. Its actually a really nice shift but sometimes on the early shifts I can never really shake that craving for a 10 minute nap. We just have to look after each other more in these situations, watch out for potential f*** ups and be completely mindfull and focused at critical moments.

...and I'll add that currently we don't do any human factors training, you kind of learn those undefinable skills after a few years in the industry through experience.

Note- This follows Kelli's post, this thread's moving fast.

Blanket statements tend to make people defensive though, like "there are no unavoidable accidents".

The number of accidents that you genuinely couldn't stop is extremely small. There are a larger number of accidents that could be prevented with a level of control that people aren't willing to accept, or that is not reasonable. These tend to be classed as "unavoidable" as well.

Of course, most accidents could have been prevented with controls that are completely reasonable. I don't know if the CityLink accident fits into that category, I don't know enough about train movements.

Not very often. I think I know more about it than desk bound people, it's quite offensive really.

Not very often true, but they can and do. I'm not claiming to know more about safety management than you at all.

Two early shifts 0415 to 1515 and two late shifts 1300 to 0000, then four days off. Its actually a really nice shift but sometimes on the early shifts I can never really shake that craving for a 10 minute nap. We just have to look after each other more in these situations, watch out for potential f*** ups and be completely mindfull and focused at critical moments.

...and I'll add that currently we don't do any human factors training, you kind of learn those undefinable skills after a few years in the industry through experience.

You're right, I never really recover from the early starts either, just can't seem to manage to shake the tiredness no matter how much you try to catch up on sleep. Must be harder with changing from early to late shifts like that as well? Although it seems to be going that way more on minesites as well, used to just do day or night shift but now they're shaking it up. I can't see how that would be better, you'd get no routine happening?


Not very often true, but they can and do. I'm not claiming to know more about safety management than you at all.

Then why dismiss out of hand what I had to say? That's the default reaction from people by the way.

I think this an example of something getting lost in translation over the Internet, and that we are arguing about different things/definitions.

big night last night kelli?

I think this an example of something getting lost in translation over the Internet, and that we are arguing about different things/definitions.

That's what I was thinking as I was driving to have a swim. I suspect Kelli is thinking wholistically (as in a company or everyone as a whole), whereas I was thinking something can be an accident for one person in a crash (where they couldn't have realistically changed anything to avoid it) even though as a whole it could have been avoided if another party acted differently.

Anyways - it will interesting to see how long the pause in works lasts.

You guys think the same on all these issues and you always stick together, it doesn't wash any more.

big night last night kelli?

The cavalry has arrived.

Kelli you're being unusually feisty. I liiiike it! PS, the abuse just means you're now part of the furniture. You'll have to change your SSC name for a fresh start, like a more famous SSC eccentric who must surely be up to his, what, 8th name change in 5 years?

No more Mr Niceguy!

Maybe someone has stolen Kelli's iPhone and hacked into her SSC account.

You guys think the same on all these issues and you always stick together, it doesn't wash any more.



The cavalry has arrived.

fucking lawl. take it easy kelli, i like you but you are prone to losing your mind on occasion with the us vs them theories. if anyone had written anything remotely like your sentence below you wouldve been onto it like a flash with another theory.

Not very often. I think I know more about it than desk bound people, it's quite offensive really.


bart and acc are 2 pretty level headed guys, im not sure how we all think the same on these issues, whatever "these issues" means

This is actually frustrating me somewhat. I like to think that I'm a very reasonable and open minded person. Clearly, Kelli has taken what I initially said out of context and is applying it to other situations. I can understand that in her line of work she must encounter some damn frustrating obstacles, as evident in her outlining of the main reasons that "accidents" occur however I think it's completely unreasonable to then filter what we are all saying because of this and fail to even try and see where any of us are coming from.

I want to know exactly what Kelli thinks it is that I am saying and what it is that I have said that is offending her so that I can provide some context and clarification to my comment/s however she has completely gone on the defensive and become quite rude. When I try to rub it off as miscommunication then, which can which can easily happen on these forums, she starts making blanket statements and putting me into a box.

Quite frankly I am the one who should be offended.

Being hit by lightning is avoidable if you've got knowledge about it. If a person had swerved to miss the kangaroo and rolled their car, that isn't an accident, it's a mistake. You're just as likely to miss the kangaroo keeping a straight line as swerving anyway.

Safety planning is a big part of my work, I notice that the biggest safety risks come from people that have an attitude problem about it, you provide knowledge about a safe way to do something, and they'll do the opposite just to make a point.

In my experience, these are things that lead to 'accidents':

1. lack of knowledge/training/experience.
2. An inbuilt death wish by some individuals.
3. Overwhelming budget/time pressures
4. Deliberate sabotage/oppositional behaviour.
5. Lack of planning.
6. Insecurity about ability - leads to risky behaviour to prove 'ability'.
7. Poor culture at an organisational level, comes from the top.
8. Cultural contempt for any idea that is considered 'weak', i.e. concern for welfare of yourself/others.

Last trip, I had to ask a client I was traveling with, to actually stop at stop signs, on a haul pack haul road of all things - the reason she wasn't stopping was because of a mix of 1, 3, 4, 6 , 7 and 8.

Don't play semantics. Sometimes things happen that are simply unavoidable.

It's pretty simple Acc, that was a dismissive thing to say. And considering the difference in our experience, a little arrogant.

fucking lawl. take it easy kelli, i like you but you are prone to losing your mind on occasion with the us vs them theories. if anyone had written anything remotely like your sentence below you wouldve been onto it like a flash with another theory.

bart and acc are 2 pretty level headed guys, im not sure how we all think the same on these issues, whatever "these issues" means

Lol, gaslighting. If people are going to act like cliches, it's tempting to treat them like one.

[edited for clarity and sensitivities]

One mans 'Critical Failure To Observe Fatigue Management Procedures Due To Negligent Supervising Sub-Contractor Resulting In Breaches Of Ability To Continue Living, Caused By Cultural Contempt For Weakness In Masculine-Dominated Industry' is another man's accident.

It's pretty simple Acc, that was a dismissive thing to say. And considering the difference in our experience, a little arrogant.

See to me that post of yours that you quoted came across as you trying to take an initial comment out of context in order to prove your knowledge on an issue which was really beyond the scope of what we were originally talking about, which was why I subsequently put it down to "Internet miscommunication".

In fairness to Kelli she is right. The majority of accidents that happen are avoidable (even if they are not intended).

See to me that post of yours that you quoted came across as you trying to take an initial comment out of context in order to prove your knowledge on an issue which was really beyond the scope of what we were originally talking about, which was why I subsequently put it down to "Internet miscommunication".

Interesting you see it that way.

In fairness to Kelli she is right. The maj, ority of accidents that happen are avoidable (even if they are not intended).,

Completely agree with this, and im sure so do everyone else but that's not what kelli said.

Completely agree with this, and im sure so do everyone else but that's not what kelli said.


more reinforcements? cant any of you stand on your own 2 feet?

Completely agree with this, and im sure so do everyone else but that's not what kelli said.

I thought thats what she said or was getting at.

See to me that post of yours that you quoted came across as you trying to take an initial comment out of context in order to prove your knowledge on an issue which was really beyond the scope of what we were originally talking about, which was why I subsequently put it down to "Internet miscommunication".

there is no place for olive branches in internet wars you weakling

I thought thats what she said or was getting at.

Yes it was at the core of what I was saying.

I guarantee you if you'd said it like that, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

RallyOz summed up what I meant, that accidents are mostly avoidable, except that people are resistant to do the things to avoid them. I was talking about the resistant attitude underlying it all, which ironically was quite clearly present in the discussion.

The number of accidents that you genuinely couldn't stop is extremely small. There are a larger number of accidents that could be prevented with a level of control that people aren't willing to accept, or that is not reasonable. These tend to be classed as "unavoidable" as well.

Of course, most accidents could have been prevented with controls that are completely reasonable. I don't know if the CityLink accident fits into that category, I don't know enough about train movements.

So much sand, so few vaginas.

^Avoiding the issue.

So much sand, so few vaginas.

i think i know more about vaginas than art fags. its quite offensive really

Lol, gaslighting. If people are going to act like cliches, it's tempting to treat them like one.

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory and perception. It may simply be the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, or it could be the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.


really kelli? that is what i was doing?

We are soooo off topic - dilaz is going to BURN us. Kelli, don't you go disappearing on us; you're our only grrrl.

Don't worry about dilaz, he's miles away.

Source (http://www.mra.wa.gov.au/News/12899/New-redevelopment-authority-to-transform-Perth)


New redevelopment authority to transform Perth
30 December 2011

The commencement of the Metropolitan Redevelopment Authority (MRA) on January 1, 2012 marks a new era of Perth’s urban renewal and revitalisation.

Planning Minister John Day said that by building on the successes of the four existing redevelopment authorities, the MRA would oversee delivery of some of the State Government’s most important projects.

“The MRA has been established with a very clear vision for the further redevelopment of Perth,” Mr Day said.

“In partnership with Government, industry and the people of Perth, the MRA will continue to redefine our city through projects such as Perth Waterfront, Perth City Link, Perth Cultural Centre and Riverside.

“In addition, the new MRA will take responsibility for completing key revitalisation projects across the metropolitan area, including the award-winning redevelopment of Subiaco, Midland and Armadale.”

The Minister said that, in preparing for commencement of the MRA, each of the four existing authorities had achieved significant milestones in delivery of their redevelopment projects.

“This includes the transfer of Champion Lakes Regatta Centre in Armadale to VenuesWest, and returning planning authority for parts of the New Northbridge and Claisebrook Village project areas, and part of Midland’s Woodbridge precinct, to the respective local governments,” he said.

“The redevelopment authority model has strengthened the State's planning system since 1991, facilitating the successful redevelopment of inner city land and other key strategic centres.

“The MRA will increase project flexibility, continue to attract millions of dollars in private sector investment and create places where people want to live, work and visit.”

Christ almighty. You'd think a contractor like john holland would have their shit together with regards to site safety.

I did a case study into the West Gate Bridge Collapse, a truly comical occurrence (bar the deaths). John Holland has little experience with bridge building, the design was faulty and the method or erection was incorrect, if just one person had a clue lives would have been saved.

The MRA website: http://www.mra.wa.gov.au/

In Marge's voice "PD, that's not nice" lol.

Bullswool the 'B-series' EMUs can technically run on the Armadale, Midland and Freo lines, but no on insurance-wise (mechanical, etc. expcetion between Claisebrook to Daglish) due to the close proximation of their stations and the stations themselves cannot support 6-cars.

FYI first post for this forum, so be nice to me. Please:)

The B-Series trains often run on the Fremantle line either to West Leederville (for event services serving Subiaco Oval) or to Showgrounds (for event services serving the Claremont Showgrounds). I for one have been on a B-Series train that went express Perth-Showgrounds for the Royal Show.

Having just come back from an Xmas holiday with family on the Gold Coast and seeing how interesting the architecture is on buildings there (such as all the towers around Surfers) compared to the boring boxes we get in Perth, I see no reason other than NIMBY and political BS that Perth cant have interesting looking or beautiful buildings that are up there with the best architecture this world has to offer.

cost of construction is a massive factor

Yes I wouldn't say NIMBY's or politics are much of a factor at all. It's more market based. TBH the politics associated with developments (read: design advisory) has pretty much just been making shit developments shittier. They haven't killed anything that was actually high quality (that I remember). Still think they are useless nitpickers.

Cost of construction is not the factor, its cost of construction vs sale price of the apartments.

Having said that, I suspect that regardless of the building you build, any building would always be able to attract higher prices on the GC than they would in Perth just because of the location (which therefore means they can afford to spend more money building them)

Cost of construction is not the factor, its cost of construction vs sale price of the apartments.

Having said that, I suspect that regardless of the building you build, any building would always be able to attract higher prices on the GC than they would in Perth just because of the location (which therefore means they can afford to spend more money building them)

u sure about that?? unemployment is pretty high in GC, there is a massive oversupply of apartments and prices have fallen a fair bit from the little i know about the market. i think youre pretty far off the mark.

it is also a much more speculative market, in the past there has been a lot of development in GC and brisbane done without significant presales or precommitments, something that cant be done now

I almost await the end of the boom with some pleasure... There will be some unskilled workers who get a rude shock when they are no longer able to earn the big bucks; and some useful adjustments in prices can take place. The last 'downturn' didn't really happen what with all the government intervention, something needs to clean out the garbage, economically.

I almost await the end of the boom with some pleasure... There will be some unskilled workers who get a rude shock when they are no longer able to earn the big bucks; and some useful adjustments in prices can take place. The last 'downturn' didn't really happen what with all the government intervention, something needs to clean out the garbage, economically.

^^^^wot do u mean???

^^^^wot do u mean???

It's "what" and "you".

The 'End of the Boom' is a double edged sword. Anyone who's lived through the 90's would remember that. While most cities still manage to achieve some progress during slow times, Perth (i.e spoilt brat) would go into complete stagnation.

I'm really not sure why some people want an "end to the boom" just to get some lower house prices.

Chances are if we have a large drop in house prices our economy will be fucked and you won't be able to afford a house no matter what price it is.

I'd much prefer wages to keep paces, makes us richer.

It's not just about real estate Ryan, it's more of an attitude adjustment. But like I said, knowing Perth it would mostly be a lose/lose situation if/when it happens.

The B-Series trains often run on the Fremantle line either to West Leederville (for event services serving Subiaco Oval) or to Showgrounds (for event services serving the Claremont Showgrounds). I for one have been on a B-Series train that went express Perth-Showgrounds for the Royal Show.

As express trains they are fine - during the last works they were running them all stations to Fremantle, which is unusual

I'm really not sure why some people want an "end to the boom" just to get some lower house prices.

Chances are if we have a large drop in house prices our economy will be fucked and you won't be able to afford a house no matter what price it is.

I'd much prefer wages to keep paces, makes us richer.

Not necessarily, if there's 10% unemployment, 90% of the workforce still has a job. As long as you have a skill you'll be right, hopefully :P it's the unskilled miners that will suffer..

Not sayin i want that to happen though, it would send Perth back a decade again

It's not just about real estate Ryan, it's more of an attitude adjustment. But like I said, knowing Perth it would mostly be a lose/lose situation if/when it happens.

I don't really get that either. Who needs and attitude adjustment and why exactly?

Not necessarily, if there's 10% unemployment, 90% of the workforce still has a job. As long as you have a skill you'll be right, hopefully :P it's the unskilled miners that will suffer..

Not sayin i want that to happen though, it would send Perth back a decade again

Not quite. I spent 4 months out of work in the last "downturn" and I surely do have a skill.

It can happen to anyone and hit anyone. When consumer and business confidence shake thats where the real trouble starts. Unemployment is simply a byproduct of that.

I don't really get that either. Who needs and attitude adjustment and why exactly?


All of us.

Why - Because we all need to better understand what 'value' is. Both in terms of providing and receiving. (I'm not just talking about prices either)


I overheard an amusing conversation yesterday at airport duty free. (slightly paraphrased)

Bogan 1 to Bogan 2

What's the difference between this black label and blue label shit (JW)??

Dunno mate, the bottle looks good and it costs shitloads more. Get some Vodka instead, whisky tastes like shit anyway.

Naah mate, the Mrs likes her whisky and coke. I'll get one for her. Blue looks good.

** Black Label = $35, Blue Label = $200 **

I would argue that noone who buys $200 blended whiskey understands value, but that's not really relevant to your point.

I agree with you though, Perth is a boom and bust city and the end of a mining boom could be really bad news.

Naah mate, the Mrs likes her whisky and coke. I'll get one for her. Blue looks good.

** Black Label = $35, Blue Label = $200 **

Oh gawd, mixing anything better than Johnny Red is sacrilege. Your anecdote sums up the situation perfectly.

So true re boom. Just go to places with fucked economies like Spain and Portugal and see how much more is going on there re construction, new retail openings etc. I'm really surprised at the amount of vacant storefronts here. So much has closed due to high rents and not been replaced with anything.

Cost of construction is not the factor, its cost of construction vs sale price of the apartments.

Having said that, I suspect that regardless of the building you build, any building would always be able to attract higher prices on the GC than they would in Perth just because of the location (which therefore means they can afford to spend more money building them)

During the building boom pre-GFC were apartments in general more expensive in the Gold Coast than Perth? I always thought the architecture and size in the GC came about because of competition and the maturity of the market. Many GC developments were often built to sell to interstate and international investors. Where as many of Perth developments are geared towards locals? When you are trying to drum up interest via your full page advert in an international business magazine or newspaper, generally architecture counts?

All of us.

Why - Because we all need to better understand what 'value' is. Both in terms of providing and receiving. (I'm not just talking about prices either)


I overheard an amusing conversation yesterday at airport duty free. (slightly paraphrased)

Bogan 1 to Bogan 2

What's the difference between this black label and blue label shit (JW)??

Dunno mate, the bottle looks good and it costs shitloads more. Get some Vodka instead, whisky tastes like shit anyway.

Naah mate, the Mrs likes her whisky and coke. I'll get one for her. Blue looks good.

** Black Label = $35, Blue Label = $200 **

I still think a downturn/recession will be worse then bogan boom.

I think things are humming along nicely right now, good equilibrium. I remember in the heat of the boom things were quite terrible. Either I've come to accept it or things have improved.

Interesting example you provide but it doesn't support your argument much, IMO. Sure its ridiculous to fork out $200 on a mixer with coke but it keeps the economy ticking.

I would argue that noone who buys $200 blended whiskey understands value, but that's not really relevant to your point.


Bingo

During the building boom pre-GFC were apartments in general more expensive in the Gold Coast than Perth? I always thought the architecture and size in the GC came about because of competition and the maturity of the market. Many GC developments were often built to sell to interstate and international investors. Where as many of Perth developments are geared towards locals? When you are trying to drum up interest via your full page advert in an international business magazine or newspaper, generally architecture counts?

I think this is quite key really. GC is sold as an international destinations where as Perth its sold as for people with mining money.

Its such a small market in Perth really, imagine if they opened it more internationally? Then we'd see some good shit.

The question is, how to give people a reality check without a proper downturn. After what I know the situation has been like recently in the UK, it is very annoying to hear people here who genuinely think they are "doing it tough" in spite of the actuality of their lives.

I still think a downturn/recession will be worse then bogan boom.


Yes, that's what I said too. (sadly)


I think things are humming along nicely right now, good equilibrium. I remember in the heat of the boom things were quite terrible. Either I've come to accept it or things have improved.



You've come to accept it as (most likely) your personal circumstances have improved.


Interesting example you provide but it doesn't support your argument much, IMO. Sure its ridiculous to fork out $200 on a mixer with coke but it keeps the economy ticking.



I wasn't trying to support my argument, just an amusing anecdote (somewhat related). It sure kept the 'Spore' economy ticking ;)


Don't take this the wrong way but like many others you may have become somewhat complacent. You probably make reasonably good money and can afford things now but if you think about it there's very little value in what you're getting. I don't have the answer on how to change that.

But thats every place. I remember working with a woman back in 2000 who I overheard her complaining about doing it tough, despite outright owning a $300k house (which is about probably a mil now) and both her and her husband working, no kids.

this is nothing new and most people I know don't complain about doing it tough. Complain about escalating costs, but again thats normal, especially with Today Tonight telling everyone how outraged they should be.

I don't really get that either. Who needs and attitude adjustment and why exactly?



.

a combination of some of our workforce as well as our govt.

for example i saw a sign up at the merchant tea anc coffee in the city yesterday stating that there was a 15% surcharge due to the 250% loading for wages on public holidays

250 fucking percent. they had 5 staff members that i could see, all looked over 21 so will be getting, at a minimum around $40/hr. are we really surprised that a lot of businesses are struggling with shit like this when you need to pay $200/hour just in wages to stay open?

would be good for an attitudde adjustment with some of the workforce too, especially the more wages are deserved for all bullshit that ryan defends, it simply is not sustainable. samboy recently mentioned some aircon installers making $2k/day, that is, quite frankly, ridiculous

But thats every place. I remember working with a woman back in 2000 who I overheard her complaining about doing it tough, despite outright owning a $300k house (which is about probably a mil now) and both her and her husband working, no kids.

this is nothing new and most people I know don't complain about doing it tough. Complain about escalating costs, but again thats normal, especially with Today Tonight telling everyone how outraged they should be.

i do think youre a bit out of touch ryan, i talk to a lot of business owners and lots of sectors are not doing great, not just retail. there are apparently more than 10 IGAs for sale at the moment with no takers because they too are struggling.

Its such a small market in Perth really, imagine if they opened it more internationally? Then we'd see some good shit.

With the old anti-coastal NIMBY brigade as the stumbling block I wonder if it could be done? It seems to me the primary selling point of Perth for interstate and international visitors has been automatically ruled out by government legislation.

In my experience, how good Perth is, or how good your own life is, has little to do with what part of the boom/bust cycle we are in.

Plenty of people around the world are making fuck all, and having great lives in active, interesting, community minded cities.

As far as doing it tough...well, again, I think that's a state-of-mind for most people.

Just remember this - the bigger they are, the harder they fall. 2012 could be a *very* interesting year for Perth.

Don't take this the wrong way but like many others you may have become somewhat complacent. You probably make reasonably good money and can afford things now but if you think about it there's very little value in what you're getting. I don't have the answer on how to change that.

I'm quite interested in this. Amuse me if you have the time (first day back at work, brain hasn't arrived yet).

I haven't been anywhere for a while so I do have my Perth bubble hat on but there is a good chance I have become complacent.

Where is the little value part coming from though? Thats what I don't get.

Sure life is expensive here but I take it as a cost of living in a city that has great employment opportunities.

..........got distratced and forgot the rest of what I was going to write. This'll do.

I think the amount of people genuinely doing it tough is quite minimal. The others claiming this are doing it wrong, not tough. If you can't keep track of your finances while the times are good, you're mostly likely screwed come a recession.

Make the most of what you have. I think people fall too much to the consumerist ideals - needing the latest models of everything, shiny new cars, a huge house in the suburbs etc. What's the point in having all this if you can't enjoy yourself and be worry free.

a combination of some of our workforce as well as our govt.

for example i saw a sign up at the merchant tea anc coffee in the city yesterday stating that there was a 15% surcharge due to the 250% loading for wages on public holidays

250 fucking percent. they had 5 staff members that i could see, all looked over 21 so will be getting, at a minimum around $40/hr. are we really surprised that a lot of businesses are struggling with shit like this when you need to pay $200/hour just in wages to stay open?

would be good for an attitudde adjustment with some of the workforce too, especially the more wages are deserved for all bullshit that ryan defends, it simply is not sustainable. samboy recently mentioned some aircon installers making $2k/day, that is, quite frankly, ridiculous

Fuck I love public holiday loading. Nice little boost to my pay packet. My boss isn't so much of a fan though. I usually end up getting sent home a couple of hours early on public holidays because it is never very busy and too expensive to keep us there.

a combination of some of our workforce as well as our govt.

for example i saw a sign up at the merchant tea anc coffee in the city yesterday stating that there was a 15% surcharge due to the 250% loading for wages on public holidays

250 fucking percent. they had 5 staff members that i could see, all looked over 21 so will be getting, at a minimum around $40/hr. are we really surprised that a lot of businesses are struggling with shit like this when you need to pay $200/hour just in wages to stay open?

would be good for an attitudde adjustment with some of the workforce too, especially the more wages are deserved for all bullshit that ryan defends, it simply is not sustainable. samboy recently mentioned some aircon installers making $2k/day, that is, quite frankly, ridiculous

Your complaining about low paid workers getting a little boost on public holidays while most people are getting paid for nothing?

Do you know how many hours those air con installers work? The guy who did my air con works 6 sometimes 7 days a week from dusk till dawn.

And $2k would not be hard to rack up if you ran your own business. $450-550(including material which usually cost around $100) for an install, probably do 5 or so in a day (which is a very full on day).

I'm not sure you wouldn't like it if someone said you weren't worth the money you are and wanted to reduce your wages. What would you say? Get fucked is what I'd say.

i do think youre a bit out of touch ryan, i talk to a lot of business owners and lots of sectors are not doing great, not just retail. there are apparently more than 10 IGAs for sale at the moment with no takers because they too are struggling.

IGAs suck anyway and they are starting to be killed by proper trading hours. Clean up or ship out. The IGA near me, which would be overflowing on non Woolies/Coles trading hours (and is completely shit) is now almost always empty. Woolies on the other hand still going strong.

The point I'm trying to make is it may be and quite likely other circumstances contriubting to their demise rather than just the economy.

Although I have some interesting stories regarding Harvey Norman and their current trading practises now which would suggest people are more frugal.

With the old anti-coastal NIMBY brigade as the stumbling block I wonder if it could be done? It seems to me the primary selling point of Perth for interstate and international visitors has been automatically ruled out by government legislation.

Like our river our best assets are accessible to only a privilaged few.

In my experience, how good Perth is, or how good your own life is, has little to do with what part of the boom/bust cycle we are in.

Plenty of people around the world are making fuck all, and having great lives in active, interesting, community minded cities.

As far as doing it tough...well, again, I think that's a state-of-mind for most people.

Just remember this - the bigger they are, the harder they fall. 2012 could be a *very* interesting year for Perth.

I think 2012 will be, start of another boom I'm thinking, although its already started IMO.

Where is the little value part coming from though? Thats what I don't get.

Sure life is expensive here but I take it as a cost of living in a city that has great employment opportunities.



I think you hit the nail on the head Ryan when you said it's been a while since you've been oseas.

Perth has some of the most artificially inflated prices I've come across anywhere in the world. Let's not even get into the 2 speed economy dynamics for a minute and look at it purely from what you're getting for the price you pay.

Yes there are many other expensive places in the world but for the price you pay you generally get something in return (i.e One of these - great city, great service, great product, great attitude). In other words there's a trade-off. In Perth though, there is very little trade-off. We will charge you $$$$$$ for XXX product. Why? Because we can!!

Unless you travel every now and again, it's very easy to numb yourself to the 'Perth way' and settle into mediocrity. I bet you, if you go to say London again, you'll have so many WTF moments when you return.

I think 2012 will be, start of another boom I'm thinking, although its already started IMO.

I think there is equal chance of our economy going both ways. We're either going to do extremely well on current trends, or we will head in the opposite direction. While the Australian economy is doing exceptionally well (No thanks to us ;D), it does feel like we're balancing on a thin thread, and are going to fall at any moment..

Ryan, if by "boom" you mean higher unemployment, then yes, 2012 will be booming.

2012 is the start of the new construction cycle. The current one is coming to an end, next one seems like it'll start around mid year. Boom/construction cycle. Hand in hand.

I think you hit the nail on the head Ryan when you said it's been a while since you've been oseas.

Perth has some of the most artificially inflated prices I've come across anywhere in the world. Let's not even get into the 2 speed economy dynamics for a minute and look at it purely from what you're getting for the price you pay.

Yes there are many other expensive places in the world but for the price you pay you generally get something in return (i.e One of these - great city, great service, great product, great attitude). In other words there's a trade-off. In Perth though, there is very little trade-off. We will charge you $$$$$$ for XXX product. Why? Because we can!!

Unless you travel every now and again, it's very easy to numb yourself to the 'Perth way' and settle into mediocrity. I bet you, if you go to say London again, you'll have so many WTF moments when you return.

The problem with Perth is not that its expensive, its because its across the board expensive. I wished we were like other expensive cities in the world, where you can still find well priced services and products. I've been looking at living expenses, and I think I am safe to say that I will be paying less to live near the centre of London, than what I would near the centre of Perth..

Jackso/Ryan, is there a special on rose coloured glasses this week?

I think you hit the nail on the head Ryan when you said it's been a while since you've been oseas.

Perth has some of the most artificially inflated prices I've come across anywhere in the world. Let's not even get into the 2 speed economy dynamics for a minute and look at it purely from what you're getting for the price you pay.

Yes there are many other expensive places in the world but for the price you pay you generally get something in return (i.e One of these - great city, great service, great product, great attitude). In other words there's a trade-off. In Perth though, there is very little trade-off. We will charge you $$$$$$ for XXX product. Why? Because we can!!

Unless you travel every now and again, it's very easy to numb yourself to the 'Perth way' and settle into mediocrity. I bet you, if you go to say London again, you'll have so many WTF moments when you return.

That is true. I remember the rest of my post then thought about it again.

I constantly used to tell people how much better off I was in London, not just financially but socially/culturally as well. While people complain about how expensive it is over there the opportunity to make money is well beyond the cost. I feel like Perth is starting to catch up to this though but may be more my personal circumstance and Perth-numbitis.

Moral of the storey - need to get the fuck out for a while.

I think there is equal chance of our economy going both ways. We're either going to do extremely well on current trends, or we will head in the opposite direction. While the Australian economy is doing exceptionally well (No thanks to us ;D), it does feel like we're balancing on a thin thread, and are going to fall at any moment..

I just see the vast amounts of investment the resources sector has in the pipepline. These fuckers are literally sitting on piles of cash just waiting to invest. Working for a company that gets involved in risk assessments and feasability studies I can say that its ready to explode.

The question now is not if but when. Could be another rocky year in 2012 but something has to give. Lots of money is just being locked away right now. Just needs the right push and like dominoes all resource companies will fall blindly.

Ryan, if by "boom" you mean higher unemployment, then yes, 2012 will be booming.

So what brings you to that conclusion. Everything I'm seeing is saying the opposite, especially in WA.

There are a few places like Perth in the world (think Scandinavia) where high prices have been sustained for a very long time and everything is expesive across the board.

I think if the WA boom continues for a while more you will be surprised at how restrained the 'bust' will be at the far end. Although a lot of people working in the mining industry are wasting a lot of money on crap (jetskis and the like) most have at least purchased their own home and put a bit into savings. Therefore when the bust comes they will be quite capable of living on significantly reduced incomes as wages come back down to reasonable levels.

Therefore when the bust comes they will be quite capable of living on significantly reduced incomes as wages come back down to reasonable levels.

Are you taking account the psychological hit these people would incur? The 'norm' has shifted massively over the years to the point of being ridiculous.

Jackso/Ryan, is there a special on rose coloured glasses this week?

I don't think I am wearing rose coloured glasses? It actually is the start of a construction cycle. All the major projects of the last cycle are finished by mid year and there is a bunch of new ones that are about to start. How is that overly optimistic?

You always seem to think anyone without your apocalyptic views and predictions is some irrational optimist.

Jackso/Ryan, is there a special on rose coloured glasses this week?

You forgot to sign into your Lance account.

a combination of some of our workforce as well as our govt.

for example i saw a sign up at the merchant tea anc coffee in the city yesterday stating that there was a 15% surcharge due to the 250% loading for wages on public holidays

250 fucking percent. they had 5 staff members that i could see, all looked over 21 so will be getting, at a minimum around $40/hr. are we really surprised that a lot of businesses are struggling with shit like this when you need to pay $200/hour just in wages to stay open?

would be good for an attitudde adjustment with some of the workforce too, especially the more wages are deserved for all bullshit that ryan defends, it simply is not sustainable. samboy recently mentioned some aircon installers making $2k/day, that is, quite frankly, ridiculous

If you had higher unemployment as part of a bust cycle then the boot would be on the other foot so to speak and wages would be generally lower, lowering overheads but if the downturn is too severe and turnover drops through the floor then businesses will be equally as f**ked.

Saying that, is $16/hour on a normal day considered a fair wage for unskilled work in a cafe/shop? I don't think you could go much lower than that.

Summary:

Mo Money, Mo Problems.

(From the film about expensive but faulty moustaches)

lol at my "apocalyptic views and predictions"

Name just one I have ever made on here.

'A liquor license right above a train station. Good luck. This will never happen'.

To that effect. Not verbatim. My point is you think everyone is an optimist. I don't see how my talking about a construction cycle which isn't even speculative considering the number of the projects that have pre-commitment and will have soon, is being optimistic.

'A liquor license right above a train station. Good luck. This will never happen'.

That's an "apocolyptic view or prediction"?

haha

OK then.

I guess a " construction boom" would be a new 5 story tower then, using that same logic.

So do you think we are still some time away from a major construction cycle? And would you not call the amount of resource investment in the state at the moment a 'boom'? Reading my post it seems those are the only two things I said.

Are you taking account the psychological hit these people would incur? The 'norm' has shifted massively over the years to the point of being ridiculous.

Most people I know in the industry are pretty realistic about the future and that the high incomes won't last forever. Remember that most don't even want to stay in the industry long term due to the lifestyle costs anyway.

Add to that the reductions in prices that will occur and people won't be as worse off as your would think.

Are you taking account the psychological hit these people would incur? The 'norm' has shifted massively over the years to the point of being ridiculous.

The norm compared to what though?

The price of a baguette in Paris has zero relevance to a state where 1.5 million people, armed with shovels, are digging up raw materials necessary for a billion chinese to build a nation.

I'm not saying it desirable by the way, its was just inevitable that we'd experience across the board, higher than average inflation and people naturally get used to that.

So do you think we are still some time away from a major construction cycle? And would you not call the amount of resource investment in the state at the moment a 'boom'? Reading my post it seems those are the only two things I said.

I am confident that the next construction cycle will see wages grow even faster then the previous boom. In fact the previous boom was just a drop in the ocean compared to what is coming up.

And construction will just be a part of it, plenty of other areas to grow as well.

My prediction and I'm happy to be quoted. 2012-2013 is the start.

Most people I know in the industry are pretty realistic about the future and that the high incomes won't last forever. Remember that most don't even want to stay in the industry long term due to the lifestyle costs anyway.

Add to that the reductions in prices that will occur and people won't be as worse off as your would think.

The mining industry has had higher than everage wages for a very long time and has sustained them. We're just seeing more people thrown into the mix but I really don't think they are that inflated, by comparison.

I think workers in the mining industry are a lot smarter then people on here give them credit for.

I demand a reaction to my hilarious summary.

Considering Brookfield just entered into a agreement which sees a good number of their workers on $120 000 contracts you could be right. Len Buckeridge said something along the lines of how ridiculous is it to 'be paying these morons who left school in year 10' the same or more as highly skilled people.

I want to start a chain of 'Paul' patisseries/boulangeries in Australia. They may be the French baguette equivalent of McDonalds, but they sure beat the shit out of Bakers Delight or Brumby's.

I demand a reaction to my hilarious summary.

What hilarious summary?

ryan - 2k/day for a 5 day week = 500k per year

even if there is a drop over winter it can still be 400k per year

for someone who installs aricons to get paid more than most doctors, more than the prime minister etc is fucking outrageous. justify it all you want, it is not sustainable

i see it all the time in my business where the wages here are making things unsustainable. it costs me $900-1100 to load, transport, pay port charges and ship from singapore to nagoya or tokyo

to do the same in brisbane im being quoted $2500, 2.5 times the price

a lot of this is due to the constant demand for wage increases at ports despite the lack of increase in productivity.

as a result of the 250-350 containers i export a year the vast majority comes out of singapore and malaysia despite my best efforts to do it out of australia

do the maths on it, on how much australia is missing out on just from our small company simply due to how high costs are.

Bakers Delight Cape Seed Loaf. Best Bread.

It's a pity it costs $7 a loaf.

Considering Brookfield just entered into a agreement which sees a good number of their workers on $120 000 contracts you could be right. Len Buckeridge said something along the lines of how ridiculous is it to 'be paying these morons who left school in year 10' the same or more as highly skilled people.

It's in his interests to say this; employers of lucrative industries hate paying market rates for wages (unless they're low). They have to, of course, but they hate it. They would rather deliver the extra money to shareholders and management. It's why we need unions. Hai sanj.

I think workers in the mining industry are a lot smarter then people on here give them credit for.

Agreed

Bakers Delight Cape Seed Loaf. Best Bread.

It's a pity it costs $7 a loaf.

pain au payne from barrets, proper bread, best grain bread in perth IMO, $4.80 a loaf


bakers delight can eat a dick

thanks for the tip btw, i will tryu this cape seed loaf

It's in his interests to say this; employers of lucrative industries hate paying market rates for wages (unless they're low). They have to, of course, but they hate it. They would rather deliver the extra money to shareholders and management. It's why we need unions. Hai sanj.

hai dallas

if you think UNSKILLED labour can justifiably be paid up to $130k per year for working in perth metro and sleeping in their own bed every night then there is nothing for us to talk about

this is not a blue collar vs white collar discussion, to me it is an unskilled vs skilled one

if you can effectively teach a monkey how to do something, or if millions of people could do the job, it is not worth the sort of money being paid

Paying those kinds of wages to unskilled labourers only incentives the introduction of machines to do those people's jobs.

Haven't you people seen Terminator?

I think workers in the mining industry are a lot smarter then people on here give them credit for.

For the most part, I disagree. Mostly, they're deeply unhappy, and would kill to change careers. They have alcohol problems, and are ruining there families with absence. Of course, there are exceptions, but mostly, they're dumb ****s.

Anyway...........

You're missing the point Ryan.

As Samboy pointed out, people in Perth are getting no value for their money.

You can earn 200k a year, but when a nice house in a nice area costs a million bucks, and a cheap family meal is $200, it doesn't really matter. When a fancy car costs 190k here, and 63k in the USA, what does your salary really mean then?

Paying those kinds of wages to unskilled labourers only incentives the introduction of machines to do those people's jobs.

Haven't you people seen Terminator?

EXACTLY.

Also, your summary before, I agree 100%.

'Incentivises'.

A machine could never replace what I do, of course.

[WELCOME TO CALL CENTRE, THIS IS ROBOT SPEAKING.]

ryan - 2k/day for a 5 day week = 500k per year

even if there is a drop over winter it can still be 400k per year

for someone who installs aricons to get paid more than most doctors, more than the prime minister etc is fucking outrageous. justify it all you want, it is not sustainable

i see it all the time in my business where the wages here are making things unsustainable. it costs me $900-1100 to load, transport, pay port charges and ship from singapore to nagoya or tokyo

to do the same in brisbane im being quoted $2500, 2.5 times the price

a lot of this is due to the constant demand for wage increases at ports despite the lack of increase in productivity.

as a result of the 250-350 containers i export a year the vast majority comes out of singapore and malaysia despite my best efforts to do it out of australia

do the maths on it, on how much australia is missing out on just from our small company simply due to how high costs are.

I think the same about CEO's, them getting paid more then doctors is fucking ridiculous.

But like I said, working from dusk till dawn 6 or 7 days a week. I do doubt employees are making that amount of money, after I just did the sums it simply isn't possible. But an individual running their own business could definitely do it and I don't see anything wrong with that.

But are we really ever going to compete with a country that has many more people than us?

hai dallas

if you think UNSKILLED labour can justifiably be paid up to $130k per year for working in perth metro and sleeping in their own bed every night then there is nothing for us to talk about

this is not a blue collar vs white collar discussion, to me it is an unskilled vs skilled one

if you can effectively teach a monkey how to do something, or if millions of people could do the job, it is not worth the sort of money being paid

Depends how many hours they work and the nature of the hours worked (night time, weekends).

But for a standard 40 hour week in Perth metro it would be too much but I haven't seen a solid example of this.

However if true its going to leave us with one heel of a shortage in white collar workers - looking forward to that.

For the most part, I disagree. Mostly, they're deeply unhappy, and would kill to change careers. They have alcohol problems, and are ruining there families with absence. Of course, there are exceptions, but mostly, they're dumb ****s.

Anyway...........

You're missing the point Ryan.

As Samboy pointed out, people in Perth are getting no value for their money.

You can earn 200k a year, but when a nice house in a nice area costs a million bucks, and a cheap family meal is $200, it doesn't really matter. When a fancy car costs 190k here, and 63k in the USA, what does your salary really mean then?

Plenty of people outside of mining in the same boat. A good example is my brother. Has been a fairly unhappy person most of his life (mostly his own fault but thats another story) has recently found a high paying job in Port Hedland. Much happier with his working conditions, much happier with his salary and very much enjoys it up there.

Without getting too personal has drastically reduced drug usage due to testing etc.

What you say is not Perth related though. High cost of cars and houses is throughout Australia. Big governments that like welfare will cost you (eg ridiculous taxes on cars). Plus a good economy, low unemployment and a strong dollar "counteract" these issues a fair bit.

I'd rather be in a country with good employment prospects and high priced houses then in a country with much fewer employment prospoects and lower house prices.

there are apparently more than 10 IGAs for sale at the moment with no takers because they too are struggling.

I don't see this as a bad thing.

Hear me out, I think Perth has a _massive_ oversupply of 'generic' retail.

In my area for example, I have 5 IGA's within 'reasonable' walking distance, and if traffic cooperates 15 within a 10 minute drive.

This is of course on top of like 5 Woolies, 5 Coles etc.

I don't live in the CBD, I live south of the river a good 20 minutes drive from the city, this area is typical low density of sprawling suburbs, infact 5 minutes away from me people are breeding horses on relatively huge blocks.

I think competition is good, but only when it is different stores selling different stuff; mass duplication of exactly the same store selling exactly the same stuff at exactly the same price is just stupid, especially in a very low density area where you simply don't have the population to cater for it.

It's not just something that applies to IGA, if you go to my train station I kid you not there is a bottle shop, a deli, and IGA on one side - and on the other side 2 more delis and yet another bottle shop.

I do not see at all how this is sustainable at all, the delis are all selling exactly the same shit at almost identical prices, they literally go to each others store with a clipboard and note the prices and match them 1:1 - it offers nothing unique, all it does is drive prices up as each store needs more overheads to compete with the lower scale.

You can earn 200k a year, but when a nice house in a nice area costs a million bucks, and a cheap family meal is $200, it doesn't really matter. When a fancy car costs 190k here, and 63k in the USA, what does your salary really mean then?

Cheap-as holidays to the US?

IGA opened a small store up near the Hyatt recently.

All this talk is all about the same ole thing that we have always done. Human history has led the way to where we are (globally). Yes Perth prices may be overtly/unjustifiably high but I would think a lot of places and most things are.

The talk of London House prices- isn’t inner city London ridiculously high and very unaffordable (that is a question, I don’t know)?

This is what I call the Human Superiority Complex- I am the best, I am the wealthiest, I am better looking, I have a better body, I have more status, I am more intelligent, I speak better, I sound better, I am stronger, I sound better, my home is better, my car is better, my wife is hotter and on and on, beyond survival of the fittest- I am superior you are inferior! Control!

Over these last few years all the financial talk you hear every day- books, mags TV, internet- nothing new and innovative has eventuated, just the bureaucratic, rhetoric and propaganda to keep things how they are.

I feel that for my job I don’t get paid enough- it’s valued but not as financially rewarding as my neighbour, who is an accountant, but that is my problem!

To the unskilled year 10 drop out getting paid shitloads up north- I say- good to you, enjoy and I hope you use it wisely, if you don’t, it’s your choice, live and let live, we only live once! Yes you probably are cleverer than me because if I had any brains what so ever I’d be up there now and doing the same thing and setting myself up for life!

The world goes round and round and so does the same ole talk and talk and talk I guess that’s what we do best in Perth.

Change can happen if we want it, but change has to happen for change to be, not just words that say we will, or words that say we have!

But then again, just a thought- I have no idea really.

I think the same about CEO's, them getting paid more then doctors is fucking ridiculous.

But like I said, working from dusk till dawn 6 or 7 days a week. I do doubt employees are making that amount of money, after I just did the sums it simply isn't possible. But an individual running their own business could definitely do it and I don't see anything wrong with that.

But are we really ever going to compete with a country that has many more people than us?


1) if youre comparoing CEO salaries where they might be responsible for hundreds or thousands of employees Vs an owner operator of an aircon installation company youve got a screw loose

2) ive given you a real life example. you are completely choosing to gloss over it. why you continue to do so is beyond me but doesnt really matter after all. keep your head in the sand, ignorance is bliss. i deal with this every single day, it is a very complex issue but one that i have been noticing getting worse.

ultimately my business will be ok as we will continue to do most of our work out of manufacturing plants in asia as we have for 20 years. my concern is with the australian economy shooting itself in the foot, lots of little issues are being glossed over by how strong some sectors are but it cannot continue

one product i manufacture, using 2 australian ingredients costs 1500/MT out of asia (despite double handling and extra freight)and over 2000/MT out of australia.

until and unless we get our heads out of our arses and realise the world is a big place and we need big picture thinking we will continue to waste brilliant opportunities

this backwards thinking is why NZ has established something like 6 or 7 new dasiry processors in the last decade while australia has shut down more than half. backwards thinking by operators combined with stupid wages and lack of productivity topped off with a sprinkling of whitey entitlement/dumbfuckery

hai dallas

if you think UNSKILLED labour can justifiably be paid up to $130k per year for working in perth metro and sleeping in their own bed every night then there is nothing for us to talk about

this is not a blue collar vs white collar discussion, to me it is an unskilled vs skilled one

if you can effectively teach a monkey how to do something, or if millions of people could do the job, it is not worth the sort of money being paid

This isn't having a go, cos we're all cyber-warriors with thick skins :) but I can't help to recall that you are remarkably capitalist, and have spent many online hours defending the market economy. You kindly roasted me once when I admitted to downloading most of my music free because I justified it against years of being ripped off by record companies producing lazy product by overpaid musicians (until Nate boasted about his own free downloads, to which the online silence was deafening (just means your every word is gospel, Nate, so no offence meant)). If the market dictates that an unskilled worker in Perth taking hourly smokos be paid $130k, then that's your favourite economic system doing its best work.

This isn't having a go, cos we're all cyber-warriors with thick skins :) but I can't help to recall that you are remarkably capitalist, and have spent many online hours defending the market economy. You kindly roasted me once when I admitted to downloading most of my music free because I justified it against years of being ripped off by record companies producing lazy product by overpaid musicians (until Nate boasted about his own free downloads, to which the online silence was deafening (just means your every word is gospel, Nate, so no offence meant)). If the market dictates that an unskilled worker in Perth taking hourly smokos be paid $130k, then that's your favourite economic system doing its best work.


no offence taken :)

just because im a capitalist doesnt mean i dont believe there are problems.

like i said in the earlier post (and i genuinely mean this without being a twat even though it will appear incredibly arrogant), ultimately ill be ok because i know i can do very well irregardless of whatever else is going on since i ultimately rely on myself and there is always a way to make money. my concern is that we are so complacent here that it may come back to bite us majorly. my frustration comes from me genuinely loving perth and australia and the fact that most people elsewhere would kill for what we have here

re the music - i still feel the way i do im surprised if i didnt have a go at nate because of it. i do know he has done a fair bit for the music scene in the past and id be surprised if he doesnt buy any music now

btw it might come as a complete surprise but one of my favourite things about australia is that we dont all have to be doctors or lawyers to do well and people from all walks of life have opportunity. i just feel the balance is a bit off and we need to remember that without profitable businesses there are no jobs (unless we want an even more bloated public sector)

I can't help being amazed myself at the high wages for unskilled labour - it's definitely out of control, and half their luck that fortune has fallen their way. I can't help but think about a doco I saw once regarding how doctors in Cuba are paid the same wages as teachers, and yet there are so many doctors that Cuba now exports them. I find that kind of levelling refreshing (I've always thought doctors were overpaid, although I recognise the high cost of their education), just as I have a laugh when I see that cultural Neanderthals (sweeping statement) make more than a doctor in WA.

Materialistic acquisition is superficial, futile; I’m pondering how your eyes don’t see…
Pretentious delusions attempt consolation; I’m pondering how my eyes don’t see…

Endeavour to be clever, for to see, is to be free….
Never deny the weather, for ironically the key is simplicity…

... this is what happens when I sleep in!

My point was, yes, unskilled wages are ridiculously high for what they achieve, and compared to a skilled worker. There will be a lot of unskilled workers, particularly the younger ones who have pretty much grown up in a 'boom', surprised that they suddenly can't earn $130k a year; that jetski is unaffordable, as is that 60" TV.

That said, I agree with Sanj that it's great that people from all walks of life are able to live comfortably, I just think an adjustment in what 'comfortably' means, needs to be made.

Fucks sake. I don't have time to clean up pages upon pages of shit that has nothing to do with this project.

Go post somewhere else or I'll mass ban everyone.

1) if youre comparoing CEO salaries where they might be responsible for hundreds or thousands of employees Vs an owner operator of an aircon installation company youve got a screw loose

2) ive given you a real life example. you are completely choosing to gloss over it. why you continue to do so is beyond me but doesnt really matter after all. keep your head in the sand, ignorance is bliss. i deal with this every single day, it is a very complex issue but one that i have been noticing getting worse.

ultimately my business will be ok as we will continue to do most of our work out of manufacturing plants in asia as we have for 20 years. my concern is with the australian economy shooting itself in the foot, lots of little issues are being glossed over by how strong some sectors are but it cannot continue

one product i manufacture, using 2 australian ingredients costs 1500/MT out of asia (despite double handling and extra freight)and over 2000/MT out of australia.

until and unless we get our heads out of our arses and realise the world is a big place and we need big picture thinking we will continue to waste brilliant opportunities

this backwards thinking is why NZ has established something like 6 or 7 new dasiry processors in the last decade while australia has shut down more than half. backwards thinking by operators combined with stupid wages and lack of productivity topped off with a sprinkling of whitey entitlement/dumbfuckery

1) I never said that but I do think they are not worth as much as a doctor.

2) I'm not ignoring it, I just questioning it. You still didn't reveal the exact details of how this person is making 2k a day. Are they an employee or self employed. I then gave you an example of how 2k a day could be achieved by running your own business doing air con installs and that I find it impossible that an employee would make that. I could be wrong but it seems unlikely (unless perhaps working on a mine site).

3) Is Australia honestly ever going to be able to compete (on cost) with Asia? This isn't just an Australian thing, its happening all over the world as many employees are moving their operations to cheaper places. While your basically saying that workers should expect less here so you might do more business hear you don't think that maybe you could take a hit to your profitability to do business here? No, ridiculous right. So why should workers here take a pay cut so you can maintain the same level of profitability as you do using cheap Asian labour?

4) I agree Australia should be working to exploit every opportunity possible, which currently I don't think it does. Cheap manufacturing is not an area I think we need to explore.

5) Sense of entitlement is a very interesting subject. CEO's entitlement to gigantic salaries despite their companies not doing well, bludgers entitlement to free money despite doing fuck all, business owners entitlement to larger profit growth despite not offering any higher level of service to clients, privately schooled/university educated people entitlement to high paying jobs despite not performing at work. It happens everywhere and isn't isolated to unskilled labourers.

Fucks sake. I don't have time to clean up pages upon pages of shit that has nothing to do with this project.

Go post somewhere else or I'll mass ban everyone.

Sorry didn't see this post before posting. Don't ban me :D

Sanj should be banned for admitting he's a capitalist. I mean, who does that? ;)

Im sure design quality has it's roots in many places. Culture being one of them, with any luck projects like the Arena in spite of it's enormous price tag, can eventually turn that around and inspire some funky buildings through the link.

1) I never said that but I do think they are not worth as much as a doctor.

2) I'm not ignoring it, I just questioning it. You still didn't reveal the exact details of how this person is making 2k a day. Are they an employee or self employed. I then gave you an example of how 2k a day could be achieved by running your own business doing air con installs and that I find it impossible that an employee would make that. I could be wrong but it seems unlikely (unless perhaps working on a mine site).

3) Is Australia honestly ever going to be able to compete (on cost) with Asia? This isn't just an Australian thing, its happening all over the world as many employees are moving their operations to cheaper places. While your basically saying that workers should expect less here so you might do more business hear you don't think that maybe you could take a hit to your profitability to do business here? No, ridiculous right. So why should workers here take a pay cut so you can maintain the same level of profitability as you do using cheap Asian labour?



last post dilaz

i engage in international business.

as such i compete against firms from all over the world to supply some of the items i do. australia is in a lucky position that the japanese want our food products. these are not cheap items or in any way cheap, low cost manufacturing. we are now so expensive to ship and so inefficient that people go out of their way to avoid our ports. it has nothing to do with my business' profitability. it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to do out of australia due to how expensive it is. the more this happens the more we miss out in australia. i am in a high volume low margin business. there is no room to move downwards no matter how much i want to do it from australia as it would be easier to manage than something out of malaysia.

keep your head in the sand with your bullshit ryan. you are obviously coming from the position of someone who has never owned a business. like i said i will be ok but i am lucky we have a great niche that is extremely hard to get into. most people are not that fortunate. i see it all the time, why is it NZ has so many profitable processors and most of ours are going broke? it is the backwards mentality that is employed here.

we need to help exporters not make things even harder with constantly increasing port charges, transport costs and delays at ports.

Moved to spam.

Source (http://www.mra.wa.gov.au/News/12899/New-redevelopment-authority-to-transform-Perth)

New redevelopment authority to transform Perth
30 December 2011

The commencement of the Metropolitan Redevelopment Authority (MRA) on January 1, 2012 marks a new era of Perth’s urban renewal and revitalisation.

Planning Minister John Day said that by building on the successes of the four existing redevelopment authorities, the MRA would oversee delivery of some of the State Government’s most important projects.

“The MRA has been established with a very clear vision for the further redevelopment of Perth,” Mr Day said.

“In partnership with Government, industry and the people of Perth, the MRA will continue to redefine our city through projects such as Perth Waterfront, Perth City Link, Perth Cultural Centre and Riverside.

“In addition, the new MRA will take responsibility for completing key revitalisation projects across the metropolitan area, including the award-winning redevelopment of Subiaco, Midland and Armadale.”

The Minister said that, in preparing for commencement of the MRA, each of the four existing authorities had achieved significant milestones in delivery of their redevelopment projects.

“This includes the transfer of Champion Lakes Regatta Centre in Armadale to VenuesWest, and returning planning authority for parts of the New Northbridge and Claisebrook Village project areas, and part of Midland’s Woodbridge precinct, to the respective local governments,” he said.

“The redevelopment authority model has strengthened the State's planning system since 1991, facilitating the successful redevelopment of inner city land and other key strategic centres.

“The MRA will increase project flexibility, continue to attract millions of dollars in private sector investment and create places where people want to live, work and visit.”

This seems like a refocusing of the East Perth Redevelopment Authority.

It's actually a broadening of EPRA. Rolled in Midland, Armidale and subiaco RA's and added Perth Waterfront. I predict they will also get Eastside, the area around the stadium, but not the stadium itself.

Becoming quite curious about how long the shutdown will last. I think coroners reports usually come about pretty quick, but this must be costing them quite a bit.

Not to mention they will now have to be really over the top with OHS ( probably to the point of being counterproductive without increasing safety) = delay + $$

I don't think it will be that long.

We're certainly not going to see a Raine Square scenario.

Once they have worked out what went wrong with the truck and decided on the procedure changes I think we'll see work start up again.

My bet is a few weeks tops.

(disclaimer - I am no expert on this!! haha)

edit: samboy I don't think that'll be the case. John Holland is a massive company with a ridiculous amount of experience. My feeling is this was just a bad luck case, but I guess we'll have to see what WorkSafe say...

If the problem is found with someone not following procedure properly then it shouldn't be a problem, if the problem was the procedure was wrong or didn't exist we could be facing some delays.

Becoming quite curious about how long the shutdown will last. I think coroners reports usually come about pretty quick, but this must be costing them quite a bit.

PTA will most likely be reviewing the project safety processes before they let construction restart.

Resumed

Can confirm, jusg walked past. Nice to see horseshoe bridge so busy. I enjoy walking over it

Ha that's a relief! See nothing to worry about!!! :p
Thanks for the update guys :)

See nothing to worry about!!! :p


Other than being crushed to death by a rail maintenance vehicle.
Glad it's back on track, but the disregard for what happened there is a bit insensitive.

Oh, no that's not what I meant at all.
I meant that in the context of delays on the project.
I'm really sorry if it appeared insensitive.

It was a tragic accident, and I imagine his work mates would feel the best way to honour him would to be to get back out and finish the job well.

'A liquor license right above a train station. Good luck. This will never happen'.

In Brisbane, there is the Grand Central hotel right outside the station and another one (Whistlestop) upstairs from the main area with the ticket machines and fare gates and stuff. I think there is even a take-away bottle shop in there somewhere too.

Its only Perth that seems to have backwards-thinking rules when it comes to alcohol and liquor licenses.

Banning/Restricting Liquor Outlets does work though. I mean it's nearly impossible for your avg drunken yob to find a place a couple of hundred meters up the road to purchase alcohol.

I still find it amusing that you can't buy groceries after a certain hour but most bottleshops are still open.

Also for something funny go to Jacks in Claremont Quarter. The little booze section is literally fenced off on e centre of the produce section with its own register.

One industry that doesn't seem to be benefiting from the so-called "boom" is the IT industry. Ask anyone who is trying to find software development work in Perth and they will tell you how hard it is to find something unless you have "3 years experience in xyz technology" (which is almost impossible to get because no-one will give you that experience)

have you looked into graduate programs?

A friend of mine who is doing software engineering said things are looking up with WA likely getting the SKA

Getting a job as a result of the SKA would be great, much better than applying for job after job asking for experience I dont have and have no way of obtaining and disappearing into a black hole at some recruitment company.

Best job I ever had was working for a genomics research outfit at Murdoch University. Great people and a great environment.

One industry that doesn't seem to be benefiting from the so-called "boom" is the IT industry. Ask anyone who is trying to find software development work in Perth and they will tell you how hard it is to find something unless you have "3 years experience in xyz technology" (which is almost impossible to get because no-one will give you that experience)

This is typical of IT though, quite difficult to break into. Once your in the boom is well and truly alive.

You can say that for any industry though. With the wages that have to be paid, I'm sure companies are thinking its best to wait a little while longer for someone who is experienced.

In Brisbane, there is the Grand Central hotel right outside the station and another one (Whistlestop) upstairs from the main area with the ticket machines and fare gates and stuff. I think there is even a take-away bottle shop in there somewhere too.

Its only Perth that seems to have backwards-thinking rules when it comes to alcohol and liquor licenses.

I assumed the post you quoted was ironic.

I don't think it will be that long.

We're certainly not going to see a Raine Square scenario.

Once they have worked out what went wrong with the truck and decided on the procedure changes I think we'll see work start up again.

My bet is a few weeks tops.

(disclaimer - I am no expert on this!! haha)

edit: samboy I don't think that'll be the case. John Holland is a massive company with a ridiculous amount of experience. My feeling is this was just a bad luck case, but I guess we'll have to see what WorkSafe say...

breaks on the track layer were faulty.

such a sad thing when these events happen

This isn't directly relevant - but this post on Melbourne's Fed Square has some important lessons on how to make Celebration Place successful.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2010/04/28/did-good-design-make-federation-square-a-success/

Tunnel construction officially started today. There are some new renders of Perth Station and the pedestrian underpass here..

http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/perthcitylink/Article/tabid/514/ArticleID/11/Marking-the-start-of-tunnel-construction.aspx

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/crave1980/11.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/crave1980/22.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/crave1980/33.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/crave1980/44.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/crave1980/55.jpg

A lot of effort to sink the line for a whole 350m...its like the belltower all over again

I don't buy the excuse that they wanted a connection between the lines and that needed to be at-grade - they could've put both in a trench and had the connection below ground level near the freeway. ffs

Would have been good to see it sunk all the way to the fwy. Thought really it would only have added the Milligan St connection. I think they said it was going to cost too much, that's the main excuse I heard anyway.

I prefer Milligan St only being pedestrian access - gives plenty of space for the crowds to spill out of the Arena without having to worry about traffic. As long as the railway is surrounded by buildings and hidden, it shouldn't be a problem.

I'm so happy with how this project is tracking. Fast enough to prevent any group of geriatrics assembling to protect the heritage value of the sand that's been under the Fremantle line for 100yrs.

Nice. So you will be able to tunnel it from Perth Underground, through to the very platform 9 at Perth Central, with a quick stop at coles at raine sq… Bring on the underground bus station.

So many improvements already and the Link has just begun.

Yep, though there are no plans for an underground link to the bus station as far as I am aware. You exit Perth Station and walk across Celebration Place and down into the bus station.

Last graphic suggests there might be a tunnel entry out to Roe Street?

In the Masterplan they said it will be built - but at this stage there are no plans to make it public. Will just be for emergency and security use. It will be made public if and when a proper Roe St entrance to Perth Station is built.

Hopefully they patch the roof up while they're building stuff.

Why on earth wouldn't there be a tunnel to the bus station?

I'd assume they want to encourage street level pedestrian activity. Try to get people out of the A to B mindset, which for the CBD is good imho at this stage of Perth's development.

Why on earth wouldn't there be a tunnel to the bus station?




They wouldn't build a tunnel until the new bus station gets built (if ever).

wut

Why build a tunnel to a bus station that is scheduled to be demolished in a decade?

Last graphic suggests there might be a tunnel entry out to Roe Street?

I thought that at first (thinking that it was Roe St on the left).... but that graphc is looking westwards with Wellington St on the left.

However, there does seem to be a lot of light coming through the tunnel from the right (Roe St side) so there could be an entrance off the side of the picture.

good outcome but I doubt that's the reason.

Why build a tunnel to a bus station that is scheduled to be demolished in a decade?

It's scheduled to be demolished in 4 years. There has been no provision in either the Rail or Bus masterplan for a underground link between Perth Station and Wellington St Bus Station when it is sunk.

I don't think it is necessary anyway.

Even still, what a remarkable change.

I thought that at first (thinking that it was Roe St on the left).... but that graphc is looking westwards with Wellington St on the left.

However, there does seem to be a lot of light coming through the tunnel from the right (Roe St side) so there could be an entrance off the side of the picture.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/crave1980/33.jpg

The pod on the Roe St side of Perth Station in line with the underpass is the entrance. It does go right through to Roe St, but as I said it won't be open to the public.

remember the atomic clock LOL

Absolutely no need for an underground link between the Train and Bus stations. We've already made that mistake aboveground with the overpasses.

The dive structure looks very prominent in those updated renders. Any further details on what's being done to it?