I think most of the holdup today was due to a failure (around 1:30) which caused them all to backlog (I saw it run into Eccles out of service then be stabled while following ones were in service) Was fine before that happened in fact there wasnt even any waiting going on there around midday. Reason only using one platform presumably one less set of points that needs changing manually. I did have the idea that if they broke the service at Mediacity and forced people to change then there would only need to be one set of points changing but forcing people to change presumably unacceptable.

Will be interesting when one of the drivers comes on here to comment about the incident/service pattern eventually *open Invitation*

Hi

Is on Manchester Evening News website

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/s/1328425_eccles_metrolink_line_shut_as_tram_hits_lampost_in_salford_quays_

I think I'll resist reading it. It will only wind me up with the biassed reporting and stupid comments! It's not the sort of thing to read late at night.

I've just come back that way on the way home from work and it looks the same , although much more dramatic in the dark.
I must be thick coz I can't get how the tram can be on both tracks at the same time when the points are facing the other way.
If 3002 was going into mediacity then he would have gone straight on and the points would have been set am i right? So if he went too far when he saw the other one coming out then reversed back ,how did the back end , end up on the other side?
There's no way it will be open tomorrow I don't think. If it is then it will be a miracle and well done everyone. Just a thought for all the poor passengers who normally use 33 who may be left waiting due to the tram passengers using it for half the fare they have to pay.
On a slightly different subject it's ironic that the GMPTE website is showing the suspended eccles and mediacity service and they haven't even announced that it is open:ohno:

Precisely, Ashton! That is the very one which confused me so much a few weeks back at Chadderton, that I let the bus go by. (It was so clear I couldn't remember it properly.) You have a split second to do a whole geographical 'take' in your head, to work out whether you are in the "via" bit or the "then" bit, i.e. has it already gone past Oldham or is that still yet to come?? :nuts::nuts::nuts:

(Anyway, I guess we better shut up about buses on here, or we will get done for going off thread!)

Feel free to talk about whatever you like Johnny, it's a free country:lol:

Talking about blinds, 1020 went past me in piccadilly tonight with Altrincham on the side blind and it was scrolling. Never seen that before.

I've just come back that way on the way home from work and it looks the same , although much more dramatic in the dark.
I must be thick coz I can't get how the tram can be on both tracks at the same time when the points are facing the other way.
If 3002 was going into mediacity then he would have gone straight on and the points would have been set am i right? So if he went too far when he saw the other one coming out then reversed back ,how did the back end , end up on the other side?
There's no way it will be open tomorrow I don't think. If it is then it will be a miracle and well done everyone. Just a thought for all the poor passengers who normally use 33 who may be left waiting due to the tram passengers using it for half the fare they have to pay.
On a slightly different subject it's ironic that the GMPTE website is showing the suspended eccles and mediacity service and they haven't even announced that it is open:ohno:

The exchange between andrewbonney and me has attempted to explain how those spring points operate. This is normal tramway practice here and on the continent.

You may have a point, I just have a complete hatred and mistrust of anything to do with the press and TV News. They will only ever run a story if they can create a negative view and if that's not easy they make the facts up anyway. I guess that if you can use that to your advantage it makes sense though.

Here's an example of one of GMPTE's quotes that equal anything coming from readers

"Due to an overhead line problem in the Harbour City area, All services on the Eccles line have been suspended and will be for the remainder of today."

By reading this it will be by Thursday or even Friday by the time trams can go to Eccles.

http://www.gmpte.com/2009_news.cfm?news_id=9004980?submenuheader=3

so why are they not running a service to Salford Quays using the reversing siding and also from Eccles to mediacity using 3007 which is marooned there at the moment as a one tram shuttle? Is that not why they build turnbacks?

Mortownman, heres a image of a comparable points from Polish Tramtracks.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Zwrotnica_tramwajowa.jpg

As it crosses over from right to left it forces its way through. however it started reversing not having fully passed the points, with one bogie on the left and the others still on the right side look what the wheels would do, they would naturally want to carry on the left tracks and so it ends up on two tracks.

They wont be running services as you describe because they will have to isolate the overheads and switch the power off so they can be repaired.


Going offtopic slightly it reminds me of a parody Manga, people may have heard of the street drifting racing series called 'Initial D' Well in Japanese Trains are 'Densha De' so someone thought up a parody of Initial D 'Densha De D' where they drifted...Trains!

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/10773/original/DenshaDeD_ch01p16-17.png?1251056197

The exchange between andrewbonney and me has attempted to explain how those spring points operate. This is normal tramway practice here and on the continent.

Thanks Freel, I get how the points work but don't get how the tram ended up on both tracks when the points face the other way. Like i said i must be thick:lol::nuts::bash:

No that crossover looks as though it is sprung. It will normally be set for the crossover movement from MediaCity to Harbour City inbound. Trams passing through either set of points in the normal inbound and outbound directions will trail through them (that is push the points over as they pass through) and the points will spring back afterwards. This is normal tramway practice both in UK and on the Continent. There is no need for anyone to operate the points unless an unusual movement is being made.

That's much clearer ta. I presume given that the tram had passed half way over the only way to get around the problem would have been to continue all the way over before making any other move.

I think I'll resist reading it. It will only wind me up with the biassed reporting and stupid comments! It's not the sort of thing to read late at night.

The M.E.N's reporting of Metrolink incidents usually right annoys me, but I'll give them this one when it's clear idiocity on Metrolinks part - I'm quite surprised they haven't picked up on the fact the service was being manual signalled.

I agree the new spur should not be reopened until electronic signalling is fully working and I wonder if the track layout they have chosen is going to prove trouble in the future...

Does anyone else worry what service will be like when trams are operating every 6 minute into MediaCity? If at present its adding 5 minutes to everyone’s journey time, wouldn't it have been easier to make the Beeb staff walk 5 minutes to Harbour City?!

Also, is there any reason why services between Piccadilly and Salford Quays couldn't be resumed, saying that - don't think I've ever seen the turn back points in use just after the Salford Quays stop.

I think I'll resist reading it. It will only wind me up with the biassed reporting and stupid comments! It's not the sort of thing to read late at night.

Probably just as well though it's nothing like as bad as you imagine. The major gaffe appears to be in attributing the incident to points failure when in fact the point did exactly what they are designed to do and that is to divert trams across tracks, just not in that direction!

Just the usual idiot in the comments predicting huge damages for whiplash injuries.

Been down there and it's worse than I expected. One set of wheels is on one track and the other on another. Lampost destroyed. And what looks to me like damage to the track, see picture 3.

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6739/image0152d.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4151/5009587096_1ca1e2df9f_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47118s-pixs/5009587096/)
3002 to Piccadilly rejoins the Eccles Line nr Harbour City. 20/9/10 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47118s-pixs/5009587096/) by 47118.t21 (http://www.flickr.com/people/47118s-pixs/), on Flickr

I thought I'd add this picture showing the same tram at the same point eailer on in the day. Might help some people see how wrong the tram is, well it helped me!

Does show how badly the OHLE has been damaged.

No that crossover looks as though it is sprung. It will normally be set for the crossover movement from MediaCity to Harbour City inbound. Trams passing through either set of points in the normal inbound and outbound directions will trail through them (that is push the points over as they pass through) and the points will spring back afterwards. This is normal tramway practice both in UK and on the Continent. There is no need for anyone to operate the points unless an unusual movement is being made.


I would expect these points to be 'worked', not sprung, as they are traversed in the facing direction by loaded (with passengers) trams. Everywhere else on the network (and the 'big railway') facing points have to be worked by a mechanism for safety reasons.

Trailing points around the Piccadilly Delta are sprung, because they are not used by loaded trams for facing moves. However, as far as I can see they are not sprung to one position, but are pushed over by the first wheels, and then stay put. This reduces wear on both switches and wheels, compared with switches which were constantly trying to go back over after each axle.

The original reversal crossover on Aytoun St was sprung (IIRC) for the crossover movement, presumably since it avoided having to work them by hand if a tram had to turn back (ie couldn't reach Piccadilly Station), but in that case there was a definite benefit to one way springing, and no passenger safety implications.

If they are motorised, the mechanism for derailment is the same though, if the tram has 'run through' the points set against it, the mechanism would probably have managed to hold the switches in position, so that when the tram reversed all the axles which had passed through the points took the crossover route.

I've not been able to find a picture of the particular point mechanism to confirm which it is, but the one on the other end looks like a spring point, these are smaller than the motorised mechanisms.

Similar incidents have occurred on the big railway in the past, for similar reasons. The question is, how the tram came to run through the points in first place.

Thanks Freel, I get how the points work but don't get how the tram ended up on both tracks when the points face the other way. Like i said i must be thick:lol::nuts::bash:

No not thick it takes a bit of thinking about. From what I gather 3002 was leaving Harbour City outbound for MediaCity (never knew there were so many cities in Salford!) and was passing through the points (which would be set against it as I described in my answer to Andrew). Seeing an inbound tram approaching fron MediaCity the driver stopped with his leading bogie just beyond the points which would have sprung back to the crossover position. He then either decided to reverse or was told to do so. The bogie at the Manchester end and the centre bogie had not at that stage entered the points and went back where they had come from but the MediaCity end bogie was beyond them and during the reversing move followed the path across onto the inbound line as it would do during a normal move from MediaCity inbound. Unfortunately the overhead pole was in the way and stopped the tram.
I hope that makes sense.

Oh I think clear idiocy is a bit strong. I would think the driver would soon have realised he had bogeys on separate roads and could probably have driven out of the situation with little more than a red face had that pole have been elsewhere.

Thanks Watcher, one day I will figure it out and should be able to but can't on this occasion. The tram was going to mediacity, went through the points where Eccles would split off to the right, saw one coming the other way so reversed back over the points which should have taken him onto the inbound track that would normally come from Eccles yes?
That would mean the back would be on the inbound track that normally comes from Eccles so why was it the front end on the inbound side? The points only go from outbound to inbound.

There's no reason not to run to Salford Quays though as they could isolate beyond the crossover there and Broadway.

Talking about blinds, 1020 went past me in piccadilly tonight with Altrincham on the side blind and it was scrolling. Never seen that before.

All the 1000's (and possibly the 2000's) I've seen today and yesterday have the side blind scrolling. Not seen it when the destination has been Bury though. One I saw seemed to have a fault with the scrolling. It scrolled sucessfully once, but then half way through scrolling it again, it re-started, didn't manage to do a full scroll and re-started again. Seemed pretty random.

I would expect these points to be 'worked', not sprung, as they are traversed in the facing direction by loaded (with passengers) trams. Everywhere else on the network (and the 'big railway') facing points have to be worked by a mechanism for safety reasons.

Trailing points around the Piccadilly Delta are sprung, because they are not used by loaded trams for facing moves. However, as far as I can see they are not sprung to one position, but are pushed over by the first wheels, and then stay put. This reduces wear on both switches and wheels, compared with switches which were constantly trying to go back over after each axle.

The original reversal crossover on Aytoun St was sprung (IIRC) for the crossover movement, presumably since it avoided having to work them by hand if a tram had to turn back (ie couldn't reach Piccadilly Station), but in that case there was a definite benefit to one way springing, and no passenger safety implications.

If they are motorised, the mechanism for derailment is the same though, if the tram has 'run through' the points set against it, the mechanism would probably have managed to hold the switches in position, so that when the tram reversed all the axles which had passed through the points took the crossover route.

I've not been able to find a picture of the particular point mechanism to confirm which it is, but the one on the other end looks like a spring point, these are smaller than the motorised mechanisms.

Similar incidents have occurred on the big railway in the past, for similar reasons. The question is, how the tram came to run through the points in first place.

You are right that on the big railway generally facing points are powered although on the West Highland Line passing loops have a form of spring points with indicator signals. However tramways make widespread use of spring points. Most of the facing points at the passing loops on the Croydon system are sprung.

got it... thanks everyone. One thicko on here now understands, that expalins what I was told this eveing when I was there. Driver error. Oh dear, well that will be a final written warning but the signals should have been working and now that it was done early to possibly save on Fines for opening late, it will cost a lot more in damage repairs and reputation.

Well that's 3001 gone for repairs after being hit not 200 yards from here and now 3002, hope 3003 isn't next as things happen in 3's so if you see it then wait for the next one....

Oh I think clear idiocy is a bit strong.

I really don't think it is, but I'm not sure I'm directing that at the drive - is he really to blame?

Who told him to proceed from Harbour City through to MediaCity?

I really don't think it is, but I'm not sure I'm directing that at the drive - is he really to blame?

Who told him to proceed from Harbour City through to MediaCity?

I can't be sure but I don't think anyone did, he just continued half way over the points before spotting an oncoming tram (ignoring the sign saying stop and await instruction or similar). A member of ground staff then came up to the tram presumably to tell the driver to reverse, at which point the driver moved to the other end's cab before setting off.

Oh well at least no-one was hurt, and it will be mended. This driver was also having difficulty with points or something at Eccles today, about 1500.

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_7937.jpg

Could almost call the incident a :banana: split

sorry...

:lol::lol::lol::lol:Could almost call the incident a :banana: split

sorry...

Having looked at the displays again, I don't think we are going to get route numbers as there isn't enough room to put them on anywhere. Unless they scroll but don't tell Johnny that...

I suppose the main issue is that there is a section of bi-directional running which at one moment had two trams going in opposite directions on it. Only allowing a tram to enter when it has a specific person on board is supposed to prevent this, but clearly it didn't. This person can only have been on one tram, so which one was it?

Just spotted this on Twitter via @paulholliday1

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/165754316.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1285106257&Signature=ce6dwMacjsxs4zekw4x3ujoxnGg%3D
http://twitpic.com/2qoouk

I suppose the main issue is that there is a section of bi-directional running which at one moment had two trams going in opposite directions on it. Only allowing a tram to enter when it has a specific person on board is supposed to prevent this, but clearly it didn't. This person can only have been on one tram, so which one was it?

They wernt running a 'token system' having someone on board the second day, instead one person was running back and forth between Broadway and Harbour City beckoning drivers on or telling them to reverse back while speaking on a mobile phone to someone at Mediacity stop.

And another pic of what's happening now (via @xraymancouk):

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg821/scaled.php?tn=0&server=821&filename=ulj.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640
http://yfrog.com/mtuljj

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg535/scaled.php?tn=0&server=535&filename=xtbm.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640
http://yfrog.com/evxtbmj

And another pic of what's happening now (via @xraymancouk):



So, it's off the crossing, on track and underpower, even if the power is about a dozen guys pushing. Can't see clearly but it looks as if the bent pole has gone too.
Tram for Media City in the morning anybody:cheers:

They wernt running a 'token system' having someone on board the second day, instead one person was running back and forth between Broadway and Harbour City beckoning drivers on or telling them to reverse back while speaking on a mobile phone to someone at Mediacity stop.

If that's the case then that is diabolical. Absolutely disgraceful putting possibly lives at risk. If this was a private comany then I would love a massive fine to teach them a lesson, but as it's GMPTE I would end up paying so heads should roll. but then they won't will they? It will be the poor driver who cops for the lot, job done.

By the way everyone, sorry about this but my absolute contempt for GMPTE does appear at times (it came through loud and clear yesterday) although I think it is justified. If something is right then I will say, if not then the same but usually as constructive critisism) I'm a realist and tend to say exactly what I think (love me or hate me) although no offence is meant, I can't dress it up.

For those struggling to understand how this happened, a picture speaks a thousand words:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/5013156328_8823f977ea_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/live8upcloseandpersonal/5013156328/)
MediaCity Tram Derailing (http://www.flickr.com/photos/live8upcloseandpersonal/5013156328/) by D3Steve (http://www.flickr.com/people/live8upcloseandpersonal/), on Flickr

The driver was quite clearly not concentrating - assuming he did not have his foot down, he should have been able to see the (new) back end drifting away from him in his mirrors (do they have mirrors still) and stopped the tram before it hit the pole AND saved the situation by reverting to a mediacityuk bound direction to get through the points fully

It would be Stagecoach not the PTE running the operation Mortown, the PTE may have ordered them to operate the station or Stagecoach might have been concractually obliged too, either way the people on the ground running the operation would be Stagecoach.

The driver was quite clearly not concentrating - assuming he did not have his foot down, he should have been able to see the (new) back end drifting away from him in his mirrors (do they have mirrors still) and stopped the tram before it hit the pole AND saved the situation by reverting to a mediacityuk bound direction to get through the points fully

same old blame the driver :ohno:

Motorman, do you not think that as the driver is ultimately responsible for the safety of his passengers he should take a fair whack of the blame?
He reversed without ensuring he had a clear road. By all accounts the place was crawling with staff, why didn't he ask for a pilot? Failing that get out of the cab and eyeball the ground himself. Had he ensured thathe was not at risk of reversing into the path of a third tram?

Any way, too much speculation, I'm sure the driver has enough grief without us all picking the carcass.

same old blame the driver :ohno:

Who else was driving then?

Of course the driver was actually driving Chorlton bloke but the trams follow those things called rails, you remember? Also Ive not read every post but why would the driver be reversing? Surely he was in the cab facing fowards?

edit, I see the pretty diagram now.

Yes he would have switched ends to 'reverse'.

Yes he would have switched ends to 'reverse'.

Would he really have gone the length of the tram to reverse a tram's length and then go all the way back again? I would have thought he would stay where he was so he could see when he was clear of the points.

Of course the driver was actually driving Chorlton bloke but the trams follow those things called rails, you remember? Also Ive not read every post but why would the driver be reversing? Surely he was in the cab facing fowards?

edit, I see the pretty diagram now.

He was reversing because he'd overshot the points in the face of an oncoming tram. And those things called rails are still capable of being obstructed, people walk across rails behind trams assuming they're going one way, get their foot caught and get run down by the now reversing tram.
Have a look at the regs covering the reversing of heavy rail vehicles.

So, it's off the crossing, on track and underpower, even if the power is about a dozen guys pushing. Can't see clearly but it looks as if the bent pole has gone too.
Tram for Media City in the morning anybody:cheers:

The pole is visible in the first photo, with the lamps lit, you can see it's leaning.
The second photo doesn't go far enough in that direction to show it.

BBC News reporting no trams all day, with replacement buses running instead.

Due to an overhead line problem in the Harbour City area, All services on the Eccles line have been suspended.

A replacement bus will operate between Trafford Bar and Eccles every 12 minutes in both directions. This service will be operated by Stagecoach.
Metrolink tickets and passes will be accepted on the 33 bus, this service is operated by First Bus and operates between Eccles and Piccadilly Gardens.

The problem should be resolved this morning.

^^

Seen a few trams crawl through Harbour City towards Eccles this morning. All passengerless and all taking it very slowly past the derailment site. None into Media City as of yet.

So it looks like they have 'fixed' the line overnight. Surprising, but well done to Metrolink. 3002 had been lifted away from the scene by about midnight last night.

Services have now resumed but the website still hasn't been updated.

Services have now resumed but the website still hasn't been updated.

wow, mind you when the tram was moved perhaps the pole returned to upright as they are designed to bend?

It would be Stagecoach not the PTE running the operation Mortown, the PTE may have ordered them to operate the station or Stagecoach might have been concractually obliged too, either way the people on the ground running the operation would be Stagecoach.

Sometimes I don't put things down right, I mean that the whloe system that was operating should not have been with that poor guy having to run between all the points and walkie talkies being used especially with one line working and god knows how many sets of points. There must be at least 3 or 4 places on this bit where the trams are runnning "wrong side" and the possibilities of meeting head on is raised. So, no signals then no mediacity station till its finished and is going to be run as promised?

Would he really have gone the length of the tram to reverse a tram's length and then go all the way back again? I would have thought he would stay where he was so he could see when he was clear of the points.

I don't think it's possible to reverse from the front, it's not safe, so he would have changed ends? Any tram drivers on here can answer if it is possible to reverse from the front?

My sister was on a pendolino coming from Glasgow when it slowed for Lancaster but couldn't stop as I think the rails must have frozen up (it was last december). The train must have gone over half a mile before stopping. The driver came through in a panic and after 10 mins or so reversed same line back into Lancaster. In that case I would have thought he would have been told to carry on to Preston and let the passengers come back on the next train as it was an hour late getting into preston.

Motorman, do you not think that as the driver is ultimately responsible for the safety of his passengers he should take a fair whack of the blame?
He reversed without ensuring he had a clear road. By all accounts the place was crawling with staff, why didn't he ask for a pilot? Failing that get out of the cab and eyeball the ground himself. Had he ensured thathe was not at risk of reversing into the path of a third tram?

Any way, too much speculation, I'm sure the driver has enough grief without us all picking the carcass.

Yes the driver is responsible, but either GMPTE or Stagecoach is responsible for setting the rules up and sometimes they get it tits up and it's the ground staff who end up covering. The whole situation was wrong.

An example of this was years ago a a bus route was given a diversion over the radio one evening in Stockport by management. It divereted the bus under a low bridge and took part of the roof off. Who took the blame? The driver obviously but the company just walked away from it taking no responsibility even though at least 80 other drivers heard the message come through.

The pole that was damaged has been cut down and is currently lay next to the tracks, but trams are running in both directions.

sorry - didn't mean to point the finger so hard at the driver but ultimately he is in charge of the stop/go button as it were and for whatever reason he proceeded to the point where the tram fell off the rails. interestingly the only way he could have recovered the situation would have been to go forwards past MCUK towards next stop on line and then reverse from there back into MCUK spur after the other tram had exited the spur

Every time ive been on one that reversed, even if it was just a meter the driver changed ends.

As in most occupations, the operator, in this case the driver is ultimately responsible. I've sat in numerous disciplinary meetings where the collegue has plead "that's what I was told to do". The result was always that common sense should always take precidence over procedure!!! The driver of 3002 will get hauled over the coals.

22/09/2010 - No Media CityUK Service
There are currently no services operating to Media CityUK.

Due to an incident on Tuesday 21st September, there are currently no services operating to Media CityUK.

Passengers wishing to travel to Media CityUK or the Lowry should alight at Harbour City or Broadway.

The Media CityUK service will resume when further repairs and checks on the overhead line equipment have been completed.

An investigation into the cause of the incident will be carried out.

Metrolink would like to apologise for the inconvenience this may cause,

^^

Hopefully they will review the whole manual operation.

Fair few suited Metrolink staff out at Market st talking to passengers.

Odd place to be if helping potential Eccles passengers.

Seeing a few bananas inbound, presumably they are running to Alty today and not on Eccles line?

Hopefully they will review the whole manual operation.

Yes ,and that lessons have been learned.There could be a marker on the track advising the driver when he has cleared the crossing with 1 or 2 trams joined together? They do a silimar thing in London on the tube... markers along the tunnel wall telling the driver how many cars are still in the station in case he needs to make an emergency stop. It would be a very simple and cheap thing to do.

Fair few suited Metrolink staff out at Market st talking to passengers.

Odd place to be if helping potential Eccles passengers.

Seeing a few bananas inbound, presumably they are running to Alty today and not on Eccles line?

Running Eccles but not MC.

Hi

I fewer Update on Eccles line

Eccles line services resume

Services on the Eccles line have resumed following an incident at Harbour City on Tuesday evening.
Technicians have completed the first phase of repairs to ensure services can operate between Eccles and Piccadilly every 12 minutes.
The MediaCityUK service will resume once further repairs and checks on the overhead line equipment have been completed. An update will be provided this afternoon.
An investigation into the cause of the incident is being carried out.

12:20 Update Metrolink Services.

A 6 minute service is operating on the Altrincham and Bury lines.

Due to an earlier incident some passengers may experience delays on the Eccles line.
There are currently no services to Media CityUK. Passengers wishing to travel to Media CityUK or the Lowry should alight at Harbour City.
Metrolink would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused and normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.

Also I found a update on Manchester Evening News website about tram crash

Eccles Metrolink line reopens after Salford Quays tram crash

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/s/1328425_eccles_metrolink_line_reopens_after_salford_quays_tram_crash

I don't think it's possible to reverse from the front, it's not safe, so he would have changed ends? Any tram drivers on here can answer if it is possible to reverse from the front?

My sister was on a pendolino coming from Glasgow when it slowed for Lancaster but couldn't stop as I think the rails must have frozen up (it was last december). The train must have gone over half a mile before stopping. The driver came through in a panic and after 10 mins or so reversed same line back into Lancaster. In that case I would have thought he would have been told to carry on to Preston and let the passengers come back on the next train as it was an hour late getting into preston.

Several years ago I was waiting on Bromley Cross station for a DMU to Victoria. The driver overshot the platform and stopped with only the rear door accessible from the very end of the platform by the ramp. The conductor got off and escorted the passengers onto the train and advised that they could not reverse without permission from the signal centre.

saw an interesting comment on
http://www.railwayforum.net/showthread.php?t=8578
"I was speaking to the driver immediately after he happened to check he was ok and stuff (everyone else tried to get the f**k out as quick as possible!) and he stated he hadn't been trained or told what to do properly and he was a bit of a mess."
I find it scary if tram drivers do not understand the operation of points, and the risks of stopping with the tram on top of points, whether sprung or not. I saw the people on the ground controlling traffic over 7 sets of points trying to drink whilst running about.

The investigations will highlight any failure with regards training.

Given the expansion of the network and the increase in staff the demands on the training off all the new staff will be sustantial.

From PPRune...

http://www.pprune.org/5944869-post481.html

Metrolink

Work will start on the Airport Metrolink line at the end of 2010. Initial work will be on diverting services on Outwood Lane, and later in 2011,on the retaining wall structure alongside the Hilton Hotel. As work progresses, there will be a need for traffic management around the Hilton area on Outwood Lane.

Well that's 3001 gone for repairs after being hit not 200 yards from here and now 3002, hope 3003 isn't next as things happen in 3's so if you see it then wait for the next one....

Caught 3003 on the way home. Having been on 3002 yesterday this definitely crossed my mind. Thankfully sod's law wasn't at work today.

Both the stranded (working) MediaCity tram and 3002 are both still on the spur. 3002 has had its front cover removed presumably for towing once service ends tonight. The way the updates are being written at the moment it wouldn't surprise me if they test the repaired overhead lines on the crossover tonight ready for MediaCity to open again tomorrow (although this is purely speculation). At least if that is the case it's a lot harder to hit a lamppost again now.

Which reminds me, the ticket machines can display a message of the day, has anyone ever seen the functionality used at all?

I do not wish to dwell on yesterdays incident as it would not be appropriate for me to do so and I am sure lessons will have be learned from it, however I managed to take some photographs today on the MC line of the rescue tram sent to assist 2002, however I want to stress the pictures are more to show examples of a double banana and how they will look.:banana::banana:

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss255/trakkie/P9220684.jpg

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss255/trakkie/P9220685.jpg

the first time a new tram coupler has been photographed?.....

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss255/trakkie/P9220686.jpg

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss255/trakkie/P9220687.jpg

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss255/trakkie/P9220702.jpg

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss255/trakkie/P9220687.jpg

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss255/trakkie/P9220702.jpg

Great work Wingtips!

That is going to provide some serious capacity at peak times. Every Bury-Altrincham direct will be a double once they have built the additional sub-stations on the Bury line and closed Mosley Street station.

What does the damage to 3002 look like?

- New Pantograph required?
- Some Bodywork damage?

Great work Wingtips!

That is going to provide some serious capacity at peak times. Every Bury-Altrincham direct will be a double once they have built the additional sub-stations on the Bury line and closed Mosley Street station.

What does the damage to 3002 look like?

- New Pantograph required?
- Some Bodywork damage?

I am no expert on these matters, but visually there appears to be very little bodywork damage, I believe a new pantograph is needed,all this of course I imagine will be subject to indepth engineers reports.

I saw an internal photo of the damage, dont know about the door itself but the area just inside the door opening had a small pole shaped dent and some compression cracks just around it, not a lot of damage in itself but I dont know how you go about repairing a section of the compartment flooring. Lower body panel probably took some damage as well judging by this.

http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/res/269.$plit/C_71_article_1328425_image_list_image_list_item_2_image.jpg?21%2F09%2F2010%2018%3A47%3A29%3A058


Gratz on winning the prize for the first coupled photo, you win.....my respect!

Meanwhile, back in the rest of MetroWorld, Overhead cables are in as far as the tensioners before St Werburghs though hangers insulators etc still to be installed.
Chorlton Station is seeing finishing work to platforms etc. Looks as if there has been a minor embankment collapse, a retaining wall has been built and is being finished off just the other side of Wibraham Rd.
Lifts being installed at St Werburghs and still lots of blokes moving holes around. Lifted track up to Mauldeth Road being relaid and much activity.

I spoke to one of the engineers and he says they are still on track for a service by Christmas.

I saw an internal photo of the damage, dont know about the door itself but the area just inside the door opening had a small pole shaped dent and some compression cracks just around it, not a lot of damage in itself but I dont know how you go about repairing a section of the compartment flooring. Lower body panel probably took some damage as well judging by this.

http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/res/269.$plit/C_71_article_1328425_image_list_image_list_item_2_image.jpg?21%2F09%2F2010%2018%3A47%3A29%3A058


Gratz on winning the prize for the first coupled photo, you win.....my respect!

Wathcher....you are correct about the section you mention about the picture, from what I remember today the panel has been removed, however what the damage is ..is?

It makes you wonder how this derailment could happen on a 'low speed' section of the system.

What's it going to be like on a 'white knuckle' section like from Heaton Park to Whitefield?

It's too scary to think about.

Hope they sort it it out or I won't be riding next summer on my next trip 'over 'ome.:ohno:

Travelled very slowly across the junctions points inbound from OT to TB this morning.

Is this a precaution after the incident a couple of days ago (didn't happen yesterday) or has something changed on the inbound enterence to the depot just north of OT?

Eccles line trams do not have 'via Media:City UK' on their blinds today.

Looks like the spur remains closed.

Travelled very slowly across the junctions points inbound from OT to TB this morning.

Is this a precaution after the incident a couple of days ago (didn't happen yesterday) or has something changed on the inbound enterence to the depot just north of OT?

There have been signal reversions (where the signal goes back to red in front of the tram, triggering the brakes) on the signal between these two stations. Some drivers are approaching cautiously, presumably so that if it does happen the emergency brake application isn't too severe. Depending upon the cause of the fault, this might also make it less likely to happen.

The same problem was responsible for a slow departure from Heaton Park (outbound) a few months ago.

It makes you wonder how this derailment could happen on a 'low speed' section of the system.

What's it going to be like on a 'white knuckle' section like from Heaton Park to Whitefield?

It's too scary to think about.

Hope they sort it it out or I won't be riding next summer on my next trip 'over 'ome.:ohno:

This incident was most likely human error during a period of 'degraded mode' working (ie the normal signalling system was not available), and therefore completely unrelated to the condition of the track.

"Too scary to think about" - :ohno: . Are you a MEN reader by any chance? :lol:

Welcome to the Pleasure Beaches new ride, Metrolink, 'Too scary to think about' :)

It makes you wonder how this derailment could happen on a 'low speed' section of the system.

What's it going to be like on a 'white knuckle' section like from Heaton Park to Whitefield?

It's too scary to think about.

Hope they sort it it out or I won't be riding next summer on my next trip 'over 'ome.:ohno:
Given this happened due to a specific set of circumstances involving the manual operation of points in the area and some piss arsing about moving the tram backwards I doubt it's an incident that will be replicated at high speed while a tram is chogging along the Bury line.

It makes you wonder how this derailment could happen on a 'low speed' section of the system.
If you read the description of the incident upthread it's very clear how it happened.

Changing the subject, would the MC platforms have been better as an island configuration? Easier for people to work out which platform they need.

It would also make an 'Eccles Shuttle' possible as an alternative to changing at Cornbrook for MC - run trams from Piccadilly to MC with a service to Eccles waiting at the adjacent platform.

This incident was most likely human error during a period of 'degraded mode' working (ie the normal signalling system was not available), and therefore completely unrelated to the condition of the track.

"Too scary to think about" - :ohno: . Are you a MEN reader by any chance? :lol:

Sir Miles Platting certainly used to be a regular MEN commentor when I used to read it.

Poor Old Metrolink Orphan, No-one Around.

Yep, the least loved, or least used, stop on the Eccles line is getting the new look, the signs were on the platforms (laying down) ready to be fitted today.

Noticed the top half of the lamp posts on the repainted stops on Salford Quays are still black. Are they going to leave them like that? The posts on the rest of the Eccles line are blue. That wont look good with the silver/yellow/bronze... :ohno:

Poor Old Metrolink Orphan, No-one Around.


:lol: Pomona?

Poor Old Metrolink Orphan, No-one Around.

Yep, the least loved, or least used, stop on the Eccles line is getting the new look, the signs were on the platforms (laying down) ready to be fitted today.

Noticed the top half of the lamp posts on the repainted stops on Salford Quays are still black. Are they going to leave them like that? The posts on the rest of the Eccles line are blue. That wont look good with the silver/yellow/bronze... :ohno:

Theyve presumably only had the work crew doing what they could reach to paint inititally, old signs need removing too.

23/09/2010 - Cornbrook viaduct overnight working

From the 26th to the 30th of September, we will be carrying out track tamping and ballast works. This will require low level lighting and workers using a mix of light and heavy machinery such as excavators and dumper trucks. This will then be followed by tram testing works until mid October. We will then undertake further track tamping and ballast works from mid October, which we anticipate will run to the end of November.

The tamping and ballast works will inevitably cause some noise. We will aim to keep any disturbance to a minimum. Measures will be adopted to reduce noise wherever possible, for example, by the type of generators that are used, by switching off machinery when it is not in use and by completing any noisy work as quickly as possible.

The tram testing works, which involves trams running up and down the line at night, has very little to no noise impact associated with it. You may have recently seen this phase of work as it started a couple of weeks ago

^^

So what their retamping the viaduct? whole or part?

track tamping is fascinating to watch:

hkDCVymANqc

Haha! I just watched exactly the same clip after I posted my last post. There was a video of some tamping work that was done during the 2009 blockade near Old Trafford posted on here last year.

Perhaps they are tamping the turnback section?

Why would they have to do the whole viaduct?

Sir Miles Platting certainly used to be a regular MEN commentor when I used to read it.
Oi!! I have only posted very rarely on the MEN comments site and never as Sir Miles Platting. Always under my own name. FFS please do not equate me with some of the numpties who post on there :ohno:

There is also a 'Sir Miles Platting' who posts on the Red Issue forum and guess what? He's not me either!

Beware of fakes!

BTW, a big fucking thankyou to all the posters who actually know me for coming to my rescue and straightening Freewilly07 out...

On a serious note, some of you addressed my concerns with plausible explanations, whilst others overreacted and threw spazzes.

Grow up girls.

Haha! I just watched exactly the same clip after I posted my last post. There was a video of some tamping work that was done during the 2009 blockade near Old Trafford posted on here last year.

Perhaps they are tamping the turnback section?

Why would they have to do the whole viaduct?

Well I thought a fortnights work then a break then another fortnight was too much for that little pocket turnback siding, A months tamping is probably a sizeable amount of the viaduct.

Why would they have to do the whole viaduct?

On going maintenance. The ballast wears, is compacted and topped up again.

Oi!! I have only posted very rarely on the MEN comments site and never as Sir Miles Platting. Always under my own name. FFS please do not equate me with some of the numpties who post on there :ohno:

There is also a 'Sir Miles Platting' who posts on the Red Issue forum and guess what? He's not me either!

Beware of fakes!

BTW, a big fucking thankyou to all the posters who actually know me for coming to my rescue and straightening Freewilly07 out...

On a serious note, some of you addressed my concerns with plausible explanations, whilst others overreacted and threw spazzes.

Grow up girls.

Great humour as always Sir. I think your great! :okay:

My flat in Chorlton overlooks the new line and station quite well, and while avoiding an almighty thunderstorm got thinking about the last few days in terms of the extension to Chorlton.

Now I am under the impression that work has to be done to a set date for contract pourposes, now shout me down if you may but I feel that the Media City Spur was rushed open to hit the deadline and well you can see what happened there.

Rumor I have heard is that they are under pressure to get the new stretch open for Christmas, now this looks fairly possible looking at the advanced state of works, but do you think I should not use the Chorlton line for a couple of weeks just in case this happens again??

Or am I being a bit OTT about another banana split??:banana:

I requested the presentation on the T68 refurband it has now been put up.
http://www.gmita.gov.uk/downloads/file/3176/item_7_metrolink_refurbishment

Reading through, Slight livery change from earlier released images, the T68's seem to have gained a hood over the 'hat' on the diagram but in the photo mockup they dont have it, the doors have yellow outlines, number locations moved, Theyve gained 'Metrolink' along the side in grey and black, front grille and coupler cover grill seem to have dissapeared, finally theyve lost orange and red stripes.

Design description: Seating density of T68 retained but 10-12 will be lost if ordered to carry bikes, seats and flooring will be replaced. Theyve managed to keep the same number of seats while adding wheelchair spaces by having perch rather than inward facing drop down seats. The big thing, facing seats like trains at each end!
The M5000 seats are less wide so aisle width is increased by just over 10% without loss of seating capacity. Same seating layout on T68 as T68a to be expected.

Net result seating changes:
Before T68/T68a, after Non-bike/Bike
Normal seats 86/86, 86/74
Priority seats 0/8, 8/8
Tip up seats 4/4, 0/0
Wheelchair 2(non-c)/2, 2/2
Standing 94/96, 108/100
Total 180/182, 194/174

Based on these layouts I imagine they would continue to be used on the Bury-Altrincham line in doubles for their high seating capacity while M5000 singles with lower seating but more standing room will be used where less passengers are expected but can cope with a peak crush or sudden change in demand.
Screencaps

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/4350/metrolinkmidliferefurb1.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/782/metrolinkmidliferefurb2.jpg
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4246/metrolinkmidliferefurb3.jpg
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2173/metrolinkmidliferefurb4.jpg
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4063/metrolinkmidliferefurb5.jpg
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/8772/metrolinkmidliferefurb6.jpg
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3268/metrolinkmidliferefurb7.jpg
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/506/metrolinkmidliferefurb8.jpg
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6075/metrolinkmidliferefurb9.jpg
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4350/metrolinkmidliferefurb1.jpg
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/4350/metrolinkmidliferefurb1.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4350/metrolinkmidliferefurb1.jpg
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/4350/metrolinkmidliferefurb1.jpg

Bugger me, don't they look better for a spash of colour. Not too sure about the interior if I am honest. Still as it stands the old trams do look a little tired (some more than others). On the issue of which any idea of when we start seeing more M5000 trams on the Alty line?. I have only seen one in the last month and that was on the night of the Media City incident.

Does anyone know what's work is going on along the Bury Line into Victoria before the Cheetham Hill Road bridge?

Everynight this week, and countless other nights... not very quiet either.

I live right on the edge there and once we had a letter from GMPTE about work they were carrying out overnight on a set date and it was apparently going to be rather noisy, funny thing was - it wasn't that noisy on the date quoted, but since - no further notice of works, and noise through to 5am...

:bash:

Oi!! I have only posted very rarely on the MEN comments site and never as Sir Miles Platting. Always under my own name. FFS please do not equate me with some of the numpties who post on there :ohno:

There is also a 'Sir Miles Platting' who posts on the Red Issue forum and guess what? He's not me either!

Beware of fakes!

BTW, a big fucking thankyou to all the posters who actually know me for coming to my rescue and straightening Freewilly07 out...

On a serious note, some of you addressed my concerns with plausible explanations, whilst others overreacted and threw spazzes.

Grow up girls.

My abject apologies Sir Miles. I must learn to be aware of imposters. I have to say I was surprised to see an MEN commentator on such a learned forum.

Cheers for that mid-life refurb pics Watcher!

Metrolink meets Pimp my Ride :lol:

The interiors do look better on the refurbished trams. Just wondering why they kept the screens round the doors as it makes it harder for people to stand there if they aren't there? There tends to be more chance people will move inside on the new ones. New doors with glass all the way down to make them brighter inside, but at least something is being done. They looked "tired" the day they were delivered!

The photo of the outside in the new livery isn't the same as the picture. They look much better with the improved cover over the "top hat" and along the sides. Hopefullly they will do this. A nice touch would be to put another display on the front on the new bit with room for a route number.

The interiors do look better on the refurbished trams. Just wondering why they kept the screens round the doors as it makes it harder for people to stand there if they aren't there? ....

I don't know if its true on the T68 trams but on some rolling stock these partition screens double as bulkheads (or at least cover them) which provide a bit of rigidity to the bodyshell of the tram/train/bus

I don't know if its true on the T68 trams but on some rolling stock these partition screens double as bulkheads (or at least cover them) which provide a bit of rigidity to the bodyshell of the tram/train/bus

True, but on ours they are a piece of chipboard with some grey plastic over it stuck onto the side of the tram. Sometimes you can see through the gap between the screen and the side...lol

Its for air circulation, to stop all the heat escaping when doors open on a cold day.

funy thing is we was told in a meeting last week that the PTE had decided it would be cheaper to phase the t68s out and keep on buying the M5000s

Pretty extensive refurb, complete systems upgrade, probably costs 1/2-2/3 the cost of a new one, when you add in the life length its probably about the same for a lot less effort.

Edit, dug up the figures its not that bad, £7m for 32 trams / £450k each with a 10-15 year life
New trams £1.8m-£1.9m for a 30 year life

Refurb 30-45k per year of life
New 60k-63k per year of life

Pretty extensive refurb, complete systems upgrade, probably costs 2/3-3/4 the cost of a new one, when you add in the life length its probably about the same for a lot less effort.

if they sold them, add on how much they are going to spend on refurbishing them, then think about how much longer they will last compared to a new on and the new one is nearly paid for. It would make sense. They are probably woth £500k?

Could be worth that but I dont think you would find many buyers, their second hand and not that reliable, need refurbing anyway, UK safety and systems, and high floor which limits potential users.

funy thing is we was told in a meeting last week that the PTE had decided it would be cheaper to phase the t68s out and keep on buying the M5000s

I think we have an option for upto 97 M5000's.

With 62 ordered, that leaves a potential for 35 more which would cover the current fleet of T68 and T68-A's plus 3 more.

It would probably cost them more in the long run though by having to replace all the sections of track that they didn't bother doing during the blockades.

^^
:naughty: go on GMPTE, do an insurance job, send the same driver down the MC delta and get him reversing over the points till he writes them all off and we can forget the T68s for good, horrible nasty boneshakers that they are!:naughty:

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/s/1330028_fears_for_beauty_spot_over_airport_tram_plan

best pun in reference to peter cushing working for metrolink wins a prize....

I think we have an option for upto 97 M5000's.

With 62 ordered, that leaves a potential for 35 more which would cover the current fleet of T68 and T68-A's plus 3 more.

It would probably cost them more in the long run though by having to replace all the sections of track that they didn't bother doing during the blockades.

I believe the 35 options were intended for Trafford, Stockport, Full Airport Loop and some extra doubles.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/s/1330028_fears_for_beauty_spot_over_airport_tram_plan

best pun in reference to peter cushing working for metrolink wins a prize....

Presumably, he is what is often fashionably referred to as a Stakeholder?

He keeps the vampire population down.

Peter's consultancey involvement does nothing but cush the cost up of the extention

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/s/1330028_fears_for_beauty_spot_over_airport_tram_plan

best pun in reference to peter cushing working for metrolink wins a prize....

someone should tell those green fingered folk that there is no way the route will be changed now.

someone should tell those green fingered folk that there is no way the route will be changed now.

of course we could just cancel it and not do anything to help reduce air pollution around the Mersey Valley

True, but on ours they are a piece of chipboard with some grey plastic over it stuck onto the side of the tram. Sometimes you can see through the gap between the screen and the side...lol

I'm not sure that they are structural but I do know that under the seats that back onto the partitions there are elctronics cubicles that are accessed through the partition. That would make it more difficult to remove them.

of course we could just cancel it and not do anything to help reduce air pollution around the Mersey Valley

Of course, after all, it already goes to Chorlton so all the faux eco-mentalists and champagne socialists there can be seen doing their bit but **** the less well off further down the line who might want to get the tram and might end up making chorlton less 'interesting'....wouldn't want to spoil a bit of greenery (that already has a 10-lane motorway running through it) and have that happen oh no.... :ohno::ohno::ohno:

Of course, after all, it already goes to Chorlton so all the faux eco-mentalists and champagne socialists there can be seen doing their bit but **** the less well off further down the line who might want to get the tram and might end up making chorlton less 'interesting'....wouldn't want to spoil a bit of greenery (that already has a 10-lane motorway running through it) and have that happen oh no.... :ohno::ohno::ohno:

The objections seem to come from Hardy Lane NIMBYs and a few self appointed experts. The couple of acres that the line will use (and not totally obliterate, as claimed) are not ancient landscape.
Rather than the bucolic "Lower Hardy Farm" the area is probably better known as Hardy Lane Land Fill site, ie the local tip. The area would be unrecognisable to our grand parents being constantly raised above flood levels and the group most likely to be adversely affected by Metrolink are the local kids riding illegal motorbikes.
The low viaduct, rather than destroying would probably add to the biodiversity of an area already radically changed by the construction of the motorway.

Hmm, thought of someone who may buy a couple, St Albans tram project (which relies on second hand trams reusing existing heavy rail infrastructure) has been given the go ahead today.

The objections seem to come from Hardy Lane NIMBYs and a few self appointed experts. The couple of acres that the line will use (and not totally obliterate, as claimed) are not ancient landscape.
Rather than the bucolic "Lower Hardy Farm" the area is probably better known as Hardy Lane Land Fill site, ie the local tip. The area would be unrecognisable to our grand parents being constantly raised above flood levels and the group most likely to be adversely affected by Metrolink are the local kids riding illegal motorbikes.
The low viaduct, rather than destroying would probably add to the biodiversity of an area already radically changed by the construction of the motorway.

its a shame when any green areas in and around the city centre get built on, but by the same token the benefits outweigh the costs in this case and i also enjoy the idea of the chorlton plastic eco warrior brigade having their noses put out of joint by it.

Could be worth that but I dont think you would find many buyers, their second hand and not that reliable, need refurbing anyway, UK safety and systems, and high floor which limits potential users.

None of that would bother the North Koreans. :banana:

None of that would bother the North Koreans. :banana:

Or the Indians (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lYvxMG9q7wc/S86ijvns6vI/AAAAAAAABc0/L1RTg-HT54c/s1600/IndianTrain2.jpg)

Or the Indians (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lYvxMG9q7wc/S86ijvns6vI/AAAAAAAABc0/L1RTg-HT54c/s1600/IndianTrain2.jpg)

Now that is a train service that DOES needs a double-unit :p

The Media CityUK service will resume when further repairs and checks on the overhead line equipment have been completed.

They seem to be doing this fairly quickly - has :banana:#2 been moved yet?

its a shame when any green areas in and around the city centre get built on, but by the same token the benefits outweigh the costs in this case and i also enjoy the idea of the chorlton plastic eco warrior brigade having their noses put out of joint by it.

They are nauseating. It's the Mersey valley for Christ sake not the Lakes.

Having said that it seems the PTE could have probably saved itself the headache by slinging a cycle path along the viaduct and selling it as some kind of sustainable superhighway for south Manchester.

They seem to be doing this fairly quickly - has :banana:#2 been moved yet?

Was moved on Wednesday night if I remember. Guessing there's still some overhead line work to do - although looking at it, although trams are going slow through there at the mo I'd assume they only need to test it. That is unless they plan on putting that supporting lamppost back in...

...

Having said that it seems the PTE could have probably saved itself the headache by slinging a cycle path along the viaduct and selling it as some kind of sustainable superhighway for south Manchester.

If it weren't for the fact the Jackson's Boat Bridge is less than 100m away on an established cycle route I'm sure they would have done =P

Eccles line services

Further repair work will be carried out on Saturday night to overhead power lines on the Eccles line following an incident at Harbour City on Tuesday evening.

It is anticipated that this work will be completed overnight while trams are not running.

However, should the repairs take longer than expected replacement bus services will be available from the start of service on Sunday until the work is complete.

If required, these services will run every 12 minutes between Eccles and Trafford Bar, calling at all stops except Pomona. Metrolink services between Altrincham and Bury through Manchester city centre will be unaffected

^^

http://i52.tinypic.com/mhu6ar.jpg

Oh deary me ... :ohno:

They've put a decimal point in, but it would be less misleading if they added a zero ...

^^

They seem to have changed their minds, now says there will be no Sunday Eccles service!

If it weren't for the fact the Jackson's Boat Bridge is less than 100m away on an established cycle route I'm sure they would have done =P

Yes, but as someone who regularly uses that route it's a pain in the arse. Not only do you have to carry your bike up to the bridge through a giant puddle and round some bollards (which make paniers a challenge) but you've also got to cycle round two roundabouts full of cars straight off the motorway slipways, which is less than pleasant and down a dark rutted road with no street lights. A pleasant viaduct top route would be much easier, especially for kids/families/older people.

Hi

This is off Metrolink website

Engineering Work Eccles Line
Due to Emergency engineering work, there will be no tram service operating on the Eccles on Sunday 26th September 2010

A Replacement bus service will operate (every 12 minutes between 10.00 and 17.00 and every 15 minutes at all other times) between Trafford Bar & Eccles and Eccles & Trafford Bar calling at all stops (except Pomona).

Passengers should purchase tickets from the ticket machines on stop platforms as normal. There will be no facility to purchase a ticket from the bus driver.

Services on the Altrincham and Bury lines remain unaffected

It sounds like a recording of the ones on the older trams only shorter like the new ones. It seems they can't press the knob to make it sound for longer. They have to sound it twice.

Well, one hesitates to trumpet one's own horn, but I suspect this is another example of something being put into Metrolink practice, which first appeared on SSC :banana: :-

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=51327443&highlight=horn#post51327443

It certainly seems from empirical observation, that anti-social use of the horns has diminished significantly in recent months, but there are still one or two horrendous examples.

Such as one morning this week, when two elderly people were hesitating on the at-grade crossing at Shude Hill. The double t68 came haring down by the Arndale Centre with the railway klaxon blaring, despite having plenty of time to slow down or stop. People watching were alarmed for the old people, who were thrown into confusion and panic, and everyone within a 1/2 mile radius probably jumped out of their skin also! In these days of adverse publicity, (both real and artifically manufactured), it was terrible, terrible PR! :ohno::ohno:

Yes, the old people were on the crossing when the wig-wag 'tram approaching' signals were active, but being at a bus station, they could easily have arrived from another town which doesn't have such signals. In any event, I am not convinced that trams actually have legal priority over pedestrians in any circumstances - but this seems to be the general presumption by many drivers, even when starting from stationary. One of the 'selling points' of light rail, and a very important one, is that unlike road transport, it is intended to mix freely and safely with the public in a pedestrianised realm.

Watcher has pointed up several times the dangers of at-grade crossings, and as long as drivers behave like this, I will agree with him. But 'Line-of-Sight' working, soon to be the norm, means exactly what it says - travelling at a speed which allows you to stop within 'Seeing' distance of an obstruction.

End of rant - I will try to post something more positive shortly!! :cheers:

A few shots from around Sportcity to-day.

Looking South from the Ashton Canal bank towards Sportcity-Velodrome stop. ASDA is on the right, and behind the fencing on the left they are building a footbridge from the tram stop, to go over the canal behind the camera :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_7996.jpg

Turning around the other way, where the passenger footbridge will cross over to the Velodrome itself :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_7993.jpg

I don't think it will use these high viaduct columns, however, although they have been recently capped off! They were for a railway long since removed, between the various chemical factories and the Manchester Corporation Electricity Generating Station at Stuart Street, (then on to join the LMSR Vic-Ashton line):-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_7994.jpg

At Man City, the bridge over the Metrolink stop is very, very blue :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8000.jpg

Looking down from the bridge to the tram stop (Sportcity-Stadium) :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8007.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8004.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_7998.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_7997.jpg

The area between the tram stop and the stadium is now quite nice :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8011.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8014.jpg

So was the result to-day against Chelsea !! 1-0 :cheers:

I dont like painted concrete/asphalt floors, makes me thing of public swimming pools :P
Always dirty and wet.

Well here's a couple of the Medlock bridge and Holt Town :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8021.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8015.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8016.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8023.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8026.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8028.jpg

Those plaza shots at City's ground look like renders. Awesome stuff Johnny - thanks for the update.

Nice finish around the Mitchell Arms. They could have just left it as functional concrete slabs.

Well, one hesitates to trumpet one's own horn, but I suspect this is another example of something being put into Metrolink practice, which first appeared on SSC :banana: :-

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=51327443&highlight=horn#post51327443

It certainly seems from empirical observation, that anti-social use of the horns has diminished significantly in recent months, but there are still one or two horrendous examples.

Such as one morning this week, when two elderly people were hesitating on the at-grade crossing at Shude Hill. The double t68 came haring down by the Arndale Centre with the railway klaxon blaring, despite having plenty of time to slow down or stop. People watching were alarmed for the old people, who were thrown into confusion and panic, and everyone within a 1/2 mile radius probably jumped out of their skin also! In these days of adverse publicity, (both real and artifically manufactured), it was terrible, terrible PR! :ohno::ohno:

Yes, the old people were on the crossing when the wig-wag 'tram approaching' signals were active, but being at a bus station, they could easily have arrived from another town which doesn't have such signals. In any event, I am not convinced that trams actually have legal priority over pedestrians in any circumstances - but this seems to be the general presumption by many drivers, even when starting from stationary. One of the 'selling points' of light rail, and a very important one, is that unlike road transport, it is intended to mix freely and safely with the public in a pedestrianised realm.

Watcher has pointed up several times the dangers of at-grade crossings, and as long as drivers behave like this, I will agree with him. But 'Line-of-Sight' working, soon to be the norm, means exactly what it says - travelling at a speed which allows you to stop within 'Seeing' distance of an obstruction.

End of rant - I will try to post something more positive shortly!! :cheers:

I agree Johnny, I still can't see why we couldn't have had a bell as when I was in Croydon the other week it worked well, sounds like a warning and is distinctive and which is totally commonplace in Europe and here in Britain of which apparently we are part of, but I won't go into yet another rant about how our PTE thinks it is right and everybody else is wrong.(Boy, What I would give to be the new broom there, heads would be rolling all over the place) Apart from that, the new trams have yet a different "railway" horn which they use on the street which is distintive and sounds like the Blackpool ones but it's yet another variant so now we have 4 different kinds of horns when one bell would do the same job.

(Here we go again....) In Stuttgart, when the tram is in the terminus and is leaving in say 20 seconds or so, the driver gives a quick klang to hurry everyone up who is getting on ( because they won't wait... as easyjet say "If you're not at the gate, we won't wait). It works fine and is not intimidating like a horn.

Years ago when I went to Amsterdam with some friends they noticed the bells and said how much friendlier it was than with horns. Then one of them asked why sometimes it sounded like an alarm bell.... :lol: Well I just laughed and said it was called the "death bell" as it is probably the last thing you hear before you croak it. Oh how we laughed and over a few days they saw what I meant.

Perhaps we should all get a petition together and get the horns changed to bells. :lol: (oh,and we can also tell them you don't like scrolling blinds)

Something tells me the amount of work thats going into City's station is not in keeping with the budget simplicity of other stations being built on the line. The specialised curved steps as opposed to the steel ramps, suggests money and persuasion from elsewhere is involved.

Their just factoring in usage, if several hundred got off at once you would want sturdy steps that wouldnt cause a crush.

Ok I see that, but look at the landscaping. There's nothing like that elsewhere is there (other than mediacity)? It does seem rather 'fancy' compared to other stations being built, and of course, Old Trafford was nicely landscaped in extensive tarmac and bus shelters when it was meeting its latest capacity requirements.

The area around the stop has been paid for by the sheiks. Think it's called blue zone r something like that. It's to apparently improve the "match day experience". Sure it will look lovely once the skeiks get bored and move on!

Well dearie me. The KMPTE (Krappy Manchester Transport Eejits) just keep feeding passengers ammunition. Apparently no trams on the Eccles line today so am wondering what those ghost things going past every 12 minutes are,and not a replacement bus in sight? Passengers on them too!!!! The good news is that they are not going into mediacity so most of the passengers will be happy with this. Long may this last until it is ready to open, and we in Eccles are not inconvenienst any more than we should be.

Well dearie me. The KMPTE (Krappy Manchester Transport Eejits) just keep feeding passengers ammunition. Apparently no trams on the Eccles line today so am wondering what those ghost things going past every 12 minutes are,and not a replacement bus in sight? Passengers on them too!!!! The good news is that they are not going into mediacity so most of the passengers will be happy with this. Long may this last until it is ready to open, and we in Eccles are not inconvenienst any more than we should be.

Just been speaking to security in MediaCity and apparently they were working on the line last night as originally planned, so I guess it was finished in time for start of service. If I remember right there's no Sunday service planned to MediaCity for now so we'll just have to wait and see if it opens again tomorrow.

Bonney is right.

Well dearie me. The KMPTE (Krappy Manchester Transport Eejits) just keep feeding passengers ammunition. Apparently no trams on the Eccles line today so am wondering what those ghost things going past every 12 minutes are,and not a replacement bus in sight? Passengers on them too!!!! The good news is that they are not going into mediacity so most of the passengers will be happy with this. Long may this last until it is ready to open, and we in Eccles are not inconvenienst any more than we should be.

Not only is the Metrolink site is still advertising no Eccles service on Sunday but the current service staus message is that from 17:55 yesterday. What's the point in having passenger information if it's never updated. Stagecoach, who I understand are responsible for keeping metrolink.co.uk up to date, need to get a grip. The GMPTE site seems to be correct saying that there would overnight works last night.

Thats not entirely fair, nowadays it seems to be updated every half hour or so even if theirs no change, much better than it used to when it was just one update a day. Though they shouldnt be saying replacemenet bus service if there isnt.

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23metrolink

of the 60,000 daily passengers how many take any notice of the web site before making their journey do you reckon?

Hardly the most pressing issue for the PTE or Stagecoach to concernt themselves with.

What's the betting there is some SLA the Stagecoach have to meet with regards the web site? Chance are they meet whatever SLA they'll have.

^^ More than you think, with the general proliferation on smart phones and other such devices, maybe Metrolink should up their game in this area. My other half checks EVERYTHING on hers, shes practically welded to the thing!

They should take a note of the airports use of Twitter for example. I don't think a Twitter feed or App is that hard to do?

They have a Twitter feed.

Ok, your Mrs may check stuff on her mobile but how many actually change their plans based on what is clearly old information?

For 20 years the system operated successfully withotu people needing an up to date information feed on the web site!

Maybe it would be better if they just didn't bother? That way they would not be critisised for giving bad info.

When I'm in London I always check on my phone before I go anywhere on the tube, it takes ten seconds, and if a route has delays I find another one. When I am at home I have my local stations live departures bookmarked and if there are delays I won't go out until a train is due (live less than five mins from the station), or I will get a bus.

You should never underestimate people using technology. In my opinion, any public transport service should have an upto date easily accessible feed of what is going on.

It should and when the GPS tracking system goes live on the network along with the PIDs displying relevant information it would be great to have a proper information system.

However, at present people get upset when overnight work finishes early enough to restart the network early and the web site is not updating.

Instead of focusing on the good news - trams running early, they focus on the practically irrelevant.

How many people today will have been affected, in a negative way, by the fact the web site states there will be no trams and how many will be affected in a positive way by the fact the trams are running as teh work was done overnight?

Yet many chose to focus on the negative.

For 20 years the system operated successfully

Are you seriously talking about Metrolink?!


Instead of focusing on the good news - trams running early, they focus on the practically irrelevant.

What happens though when people think there is no service, they go stand at the replacement bus stop, only for a tram to go past and they miss it? It's not too hard for a website to be updated, to say that in this day and age, hardly anyone checks it for status updates is baffling... the two quotes I've taken from your posts here, really make me think your not on the same planet as the rest of us...

Yes, Metrolink operates VERY successfully, having more than doubled the patronage on the Phase1 tracks and steadily increased the numbers on Phase2.

Not denying that the information coming out could be better, am denying it is a major issue.

The fact that the trams are running will affect many more people in a positive way, by several orders of magnitude, than the fact a web site is not updated fast enough.

It's a Sunday, it really would not surprise me in the slightest if the method for updating the web site is slightly more onerous tham some would imagine, on a Sunday I bet they have minimal staff in, as such the less important issues, such as keeping the web site updated no doubt get ignored.

I really cannot see why many of you think it is a massive deal?

Sure if you like a good moan go for it, but why no credit whatsoever about the fact that the line opened today, ahead of schedule?

Sure if you like a good moan go for it, but why no credit whatsoever about the fact that the line opened today, ahead of schedule?

They are two entirely separate issues.

I can't see anyone saying it is bad that everything is running ok.

Maybe, but everyone, like always, focuses on the tiny negative and it is tiny as I bet practically no one whatsoever has been adversely affected by the web site being slow to be updated whereas huge (relatively) numbers will be positively affected by the fact that they are running.

Sure, discuss how there are issues with the way that some parts of the network are operated, but when something much more substantial happens that also needs to be acknowledged.


As someone who has worked for a service company that provided outsourced services I have a LOT of sympathy for whoever is running the web site.

There WILL be an SLA and targets for maintaining the web site.

IF and I do mean IF Stagecoach are responsible for maintaining the service details on the web site they will be getting punished if they do not meet those targets.

IF those targets are too low then that is the fault of the contract between the PTE and Stagecoach, if that is the case an understanding of why the targets are so long is required and I suspect none of us on here have a clue.

As with most outsourcing you reach a happy median.

Stagecoach could be tasked with having the service details updated within 5secs of an incident happening and being accurate 99.999% of the time. However, that has cost implications.

Whatever level of service that is provided is ALWAYS a trade off of cost for the contract and level of service.

Sure, it MAY be very easy and VERY cheap to update the web site, but if Stagecoach only need to update it within 1hr 98% of the time, the decision may have been taken that on Sundays, when staff cost more and there are fewer passengers, that they can afford to take the hit.

Such issues are always made out to be incredibly simple on these forums, from my experience of providing an outsourced service the reality in all likelyhood will be vastly different.

Are you seriously talking about Metrolink?!

I thought one of the problems was that Metrolink was rather too successful, running at or near capacity from almost the word go, or is meeting a target a sign of failure now?


What happens though when people think there is no service, they go stand at the replacement bus stop, only for a tram to go past and they miss it? It's not too hard for a website to be updated, to say that in this day and age, hardly anyone checks it for status updates is baffling... the two quotes I've taken from your posts here, really make me think your not on the same planet as the rest of us...

I make my living on my PC and rely on public transport but never dream of checking times and status of services. I'm afraid if you think a significant number of users rely on websites for transport status then I'm forced to wonder what planet you're on.

I thought one of the problems was that Metrolink was rather too successful, running at or near capacity from almost the word go, or is meeting a target a sign of failure now?




I make my living on my PC and rely on public transport but never dream of checking times and status of services. I'm afraid if you think a significant number of users rely on websites for transport status then I'm forced to wonder what planet you're on.


Maybe if you lived on the Eccles line you would :)

I always check the Train Line.com when I travel into the city on the train, just to see what time it's arriving at the station (usually every 20 minutes) and to make sure it's still running ...

I always check the Train Line.com when I travel into the city on the train, just to see what time it's arriving at the station (usually every 20 minutes) and to make sure it's still running ...

Apparently that means you also live on a different planet :nuts:

I make my living on my PC and rely on public transport but never dream of checking times and status of services. I'm afraid if you think a significant number of users rely on websites for transport status then I'm forced to wonder what planet you're on.

:bash:

I'm on a planet where the internet is knowledge, just because you don't seek travel updates, doesn't mean the other 59,999 people who use the network don't.

I use to take the tram near enough everyday and would regrularly check their website for status updates, tram times at different stops I was going to, bank holiday timings etc, I'd rather do that, then stand in the cold for 12 minutes having just missed one...

I think if only a handful of people looked at their website for status updates (of which I'm sure its a heck of a lot more, contray to what you believe) - then it's worth it being up to date, it's suppose to be a public transport service, so the public should be kept up to date as effectively as possible.

11hrs ago - i.e. at the start of business today

Metrolink Services., A 12 minute service is operating on the Altrincham and Bury lines. A 12 minute service is operating on the Eccles ...

http://twitter.com/manc_metrolink

If it REALLY bothers you that much follow them on Twitter, no doubt they can send messages on that much easier than getting the web site updated on a Sunday.

and time stamped 09:00 on the PTE web site...

http://www.metrolink.co.uk/todaysdisruptions/index.asp?id=7

26/09/2010 - 09:00 Metrolink Service Update.
Metrolink Services.

A 12 minute service is operating on the Altrincham and Bury lines.



A 12 minute service is operating on the Eccles line.













For further information please contact:

Customer Services


Email: customerservices@metrolink.co.uk


I have totally lost track of what people are complaining about here?

The fact that yesterday, before the planned work, that the PTE were warning that the plan was for the Eccles line to be closed?

Then at 6am on Twitter and 9am on the web site they informed that the line was open?

What exactly did people want in addition to this? The line to be closed as the web site said it would be yesterday?

http://twitter.com/manc_metrolink

If it REALLY bothers you that much follow them on Twitter, no doubt they can send messages on that much easier than getting the web site updated on a Sunday.

If they can update twitter*, they SHOULD update their website too.

I use the website everyday before I leave for work and before I set off home to check if their have been any, vehicle failures, overhead wire problems, signal faults etc...

If I'd been going to Salford this morning , I would have assumed that the Eccles line was closed and therefore I would of got off the tram at Trafford Bar and would have been waiting for a bus.

Just because you don't use the website for regaulr service updates, other people do.




* = I wasn't even aware they were on twitter, as no where on the Metrolink homepage or Customer service page does it mention that they are.

But the web site has been updated - at 9am today, probably when whoever makes the updates got in.

Sending a Twitter message is very easy, access to the web is all that is required.

We do not have a clue how easy or hard updating the web site is. It's owned by the PTE but do Stagecoahc or the PTE update it?

But the web site has been updated - at 9am today, probably when whoever makes the updates got in.

Sending a Twitter message is very easy, access to the web is all that is required.

We do not have a clue how easy or hard updating the web site is. It's owned by the PTE but do Stagecoahc or the PTE update it?

It's not our problem, how easy or hard it is to update the website. The fact is, it should be done, especially after stating that the line would be closed all day.

(It wasn't updated at 9am either, as I checked this morning and it still had last nights message from 17:51 on)

:bash:


I think if only a handful of people looked at their website for status updates (of which I'm sure its a heck of a lot more, contray to what you believe) - then it's worth it being up to date, it's suppose to be a public transport service, so the public should be kept up to date as effectively as possible.

You're assuming that the majority behave like you, I'm assuming that the vast majority behave in the same way as my customers do. Some do not like ordering goods over the internet, check e-mail once a day and think they're obsessed with it. Some will stand at the bus stop, phone in hand, and ask me what time the next bus is. And talking phones, aren't they going to be far more heavily used than the web site?

(It wasn't updated at 9am either, as I checked this morning and it still had last nights message from 17:51 on)

I could be wrong, but I think this *may* have been updated this morning, but with a bad timestamp.

The @manc_metrolink twitter feed isn't actually affiliated with Metrolink or GMPTE, it's just a robot which from what I gather just relays the service updates whenever they get updated through the day.

I could be wrong, but I think this *may* have been updated this morning, but with a bad timestamp.

The @manc_metrolink twitter feed isn't actually affiliated with Metrolink or GMPTE, it's just a robot which from what I gather just relays the service updates whenever they get updated through the day.

In which case the robot relayed an update at 6am today.

Something tells me the amount of work thats going into City's station is not in keeping with the budget simplicity of other stations being built on the line. The specialised curved steps as opposed to the steel ramps, suggests money and persuasion from elsewhere is involved.


Also something to do with on match days where 500 people will be coming from the holding area at the top to the platform at the bottom......in other words, a safety issue, a steep steel staircase is an accident waiting to happen

11hrs ago - i.e. at the start of business today



http://twitter.com/manc_metrolink

If it REALLY bothers you that much follow them on Twitter, no doubt they can send messages on that much easier than getting the web site updated on a Sunday.

NOT TRUE

Before I made my post at about 12o'clock dinnertime today I checked the website to make sure that I was correct in what I was about to post. It said clearly that no trams were operating on the Eccles line and to use the replacement bus service, so I come home from work now and see it shows an update from 0900 this morning, so it seems they are now lying on the website.

And yes it does affect some passengers travel plans if they see that buses are running instead of trams. The patronage has gone down significantly this year and much of that is being put doen to replacement bus services. (altough they acually operate well)

Before I posted at dinnertime I saw 4 people miss a tram due to this inaccurate information. As I came out by the side of Ladywell bus stop they all pointed madly across the road at a tram coming up out of the subway. They all had yellow tickets in their hands so have then had to wait another 12 minutes for the next one.

of the 60,000 daily passengers how many take any notice of the web site before making their journey do you reckon?

Hardly the most pressing issue for the PTE or Stagecoach to concernt themselves with.

What's the betting there is some SLA the Stagecoach have to meet with regards the web site? Chance are they meet whatever SLA they'll have.

Sorry fella,

:ohno: But I think that is a really sloppy attitude there

Sorry fella,

:ohno: But I think that is a really sloppy attitude there

Oh do get a sense of perspective. According to the MEN on Tuesday there was a drama that had Metrolink passengers fleeing, five days later all is back working bar the website but you consider that sloppy :ohno:

Some here were predicting weeks, not days.

just stop and think about what you're arguing about here. Yes, maybe Metrolink made a small mistake on their website but they fixed it in the end, didn't they? A bit silly to be kicking up a fuss at something so irrelevant - gosh, it's as if somebody has been murdered!
A little off-topic, but i noticed there was a fair bit of driver training happening today - will get some pics up tomorrow.

A little off-topic, but i noticed there was a fair bit of driver training happening today - will get some pics up tomorrow.

Noticed a gang working on the track at Chorlton Station yesterday. Appeared to be drainage related as they were excavating between the tracks.

I see a Twitter update at 6am and the web site appears correct.

I reckon someone at Metrolink towers provides a service update which kicks off different processes. The Twitter feed being automatic and fast the web site probably not so fast.

Given the web site is probably hosted by the same company who do the PTE site.

I'm guessing that when the company won the bid to host the PTE web site their SLA for making updates was probably a couple of hours, even a day or so given the nature of the information held. As time progresses there is more of a demand for a faster update to the web site.

However, instead of the simplistic knee jerk reaction consider if the PTE are only 2 years into a 5 year contract with a company to host the web site.

Is it worth say a tram or two less for the network to renegotiate the web site contract to allow faster updates?

Is it better to wait until the existing contract expires?

Dunno. Not even sure what issues may cause the delay to the web site getting updated compared to the Twitter robot.

It MAY be simple, it almost certainly won't be as I bet at least 2 outsourced contracts - Stagecoach and web site hosters, are affected here.

It may very well be the best way of spending money at present to leave as is. Any refinement or improvements could well be cost prohibative at present.

following on from above, it is perfectly possible the web site is preped for the TOS to start working.

For all we know the TOS will feed straight into the web site.

Should we sacrafice a couple of trams so in the mean time the web site is updated a little quicker?

Eccles tram this morning does not have 'via Media:City UK' suggesting direct Eccles service in operation.

Maybe, but everyone, like always, focuses on the tiny negative and it is tiny as I bet practically no one whatsoever has been adversely affected by the web site being slow to be updated whereas huge (relatively) numbers will be positively affected by the fact that they are running.

Sure, discuss how there are issues with the way that some parts of the network are operated, but when something much more substantial happens that also needs to be acknowledged.


As someone who has worked for a service company that provided outsourced services I have a LOT of sympathy for whoever is running the web site.

There WILL be an SLA and targets for maintaining the web site.

IF and I do mean IF Stagecoach are responsible for maintaining the service details on the web site they will be getting punished if they do not meet those targets.

IF those targets are too low then that is the fault of the contract between the PTE and Stagecoach, if that is the case an understanding of why the targets are so long is required and I suspect none of us on here have a clue.

As with most outsourcing you reach a happy median.

Stagecoach could be tasked with having the service details updated within 5secs of an incident happening and being accurate 99.999% of the time. However, that has cost implications.

Whatever level of service that is provided is ALWAYS a trade off of cost for the contract and level of service.

Sure, it MAY be very easy and VERY cheap to update the web site, but if Stagecoach only need to update it within 1hr 98% of the time, the decision may have been taken that on Sundays, when staff cost more and there are fewer passengers, that they can afford to take the hit.

Such issues are always made out to be incredibly simple on these forums, from my experience of providing an outsourced service the reality in all likelyhood will be vastly different.

I guess that rather than the issue of not updating the site the thing that bugs me is that it is a symptom of a lack of attention to detail. If the things that we notice like incorrect info are missed by the operator what other little things are they missing that aren't so obvious to us. Someone has commented on the use of the air horns inappropriately in the example where they were used in a threatening manner at Shudehill. Things like that should be picked up and corrected through monitoring of driving standards.
By the way I think you will find that the Metrolink website (rather than the GMPTE one) is updated from the Control Room. The information isn't just used by us, the travelling public, but also [picked up by some of the Media Travel News sites.

Pamela Walsh and Dean Kirby are the only two people that Metrolink follow on Twitter.

Maybe there are issues that need fixing but given the limited pot of cash then I'd prefer the more important bigger issues to be focused on first - like bringing a line back into service early.

I see the PIDs on all the Alty line still covered in wood about 15months after being installed.

Instead of moaning about how inefficient the whole operation is it reminds me that the restricted finances can only go so far and much patience is required.

If the Eccles line had taken two weeks to re-open then by all means complain about it, but I'm afraid a slow update of a web site and tram drivers getting giddy with their horns are not going to worry me in the slightest.

There is far far more scutiny on the operation today than even 2 years ago.

Issues like the broken rail in St Peeters Sq are a concern, honky drivers and out of date web sites don't do it for me I'm afraid.

There was a big watersports event down at Salford Quays yesterday. Opposite the part where the incident happened the road has been lifted and therefore the yellow lines have gone so there was parking on both sides so perhaps lack of access was why it may not have been finished.

Oh do get a sense of perspective. According to the MEN on Tuesday there was a drama that had Metrolink passengers fleeing, five days later all is back working bar the website but consider that sloppy :ohno:

Some here were predicting weeks, not days.

I see what you mean about it being maybe out of perspective :lol: (possibly about the information yesterday) but it's added onto everything that has gone on in the past. One of the biggest complaints that passengers have is bad, wrong, or lack of information and still nothing improves, then maybe it isn't over the top? :)

Maybe it is worth asking why there is bad wrong or slow information to try to understand the operation rather than just thinking it's wrong?

9 ,10, 17 October Altrincham line

There will be no trams running on the Altrincham line from 10pm Saturday 9 October and all day on Sunday 10 October and all day Sunday 17 October. This is due to engineering work for the expansion of the Metrolink network.

A replacement bus service will run from Altrincham to Deansgate-Castlefield then non-stop to Piccadilly station.

Passengers should buy their tickets from Metrolink ticket vending machines as normal, before boarding the bus. Normal tram services will resume from the start of service on Monday 11 October and Monday 18 October following each closure.

Metrolink apologises for any inconvenience.



23, 24 October Bury line
On Saturday 23 and Sunday 24 October there will be no trams running on the Bury line. This is due to work for the construction of the new tram stop at Abraham Moss.

A replacement bus will run from Bury to Piccadilly, calling at all stops to Victoria then non stop to Piccadilly Gardens and Piccadilly station.

Passengers should buy their tickets from Metrolink ticket vending machines as normal, before boarding the bus. Normal tram services will resume from the start of service on Monday 25 October.

Metrolink apologises for any inconvenience.

^^

The Altrincham one puzzles me a little - there had already been a closure some time back so that the connecting trackwork could be sorted.

Unless perhaps... the wires are getting switched on?! :banana:

I'm not sure if they extend all the way to St. Werburgh's yet, but as of a few days ago they had certainly reached the Chorlton stop. Little else had changed at the time except for shelters also appearing on the southbound platform.

And Abraham Moss... well well, I didn't think work was due to start on it yet. Looking good :) - does anybody have an expected opening date for the stop, or is it not clear yet?

A first post.

I have watched the thread for 6 months now, and would like to thank those who have posted pictures, especially Mr de Rivative, whose photos, standing balanced on top of a double decker bus, have been very illuminating.

I would also like to thank Freel07, for the route maps by the architects/civil engineers. They may have spelling mistakes, which is sad from a historical point of view, but they are very accurate otherwise.

Random points and questions - inevitably.

Points:

Mauldeth Road tree felling for the Airport route.
People seem to be unaware that many common deciduous trees have a finite life. The trees that will be felled on the central reservation would have been removed anyway in the next 20 years, tram or no tram.

BBC Staff moving to Manchester.

As someone living in South Manchester, I would point out that there has been a major exodus of chancers and spivs from Wilmslow, the Edge, and especially Prestbury, which is empty.

Areas such as these are far nicer to live in than many London suburbs.

I think they will most likely end up there.

Trafford Centre. One of my siblings advised Peel Holdings for several years on tax matters. He maintained throughout that Peel had no problem paying 10 or 20 million GBP towards the line.

My assumption is that the presumptive cost is now far greater. Also, he never discussed running costs with them.

Questions:

1. Track laying. I have never seen a track laying machine in any of the photos of ballasted lengths of track. Is there one? Its use must be complicated by the fact that some laid lengths are only one or two hundred metres.

2. Non-ballasted street track. Are the workers doing this German, or does the UK now possess the skills?

3. I note that on the curves by the canal bridge on the East Manchester line the track is only laid in short sections at a time. Does anyone know why?

4. Does the non-ballasted street track have expansion joints?

5. When the West Coast Main Line was relaid, I was living by the track. The replacement points came pre-assembled on sleepers. Is this technique used anywhere on the tram system?

6. Platform slopes at the new stations seem to be interrupted by a flat area half way down to the track. Am I correct?

7. Did the original tram system, which my father rode, die totally, or retreat into Heaton Park?

8. Does anyone know if there is an online map of the original tram system in Manchester?

Before I made my post at about 12o'clock dinnertime today I checked the website to make sure that I was correct in what I was about to post. It said clearly that no trams were operating on the Eccles line and to use the replacement bus service, so I come home from work now and see it shows an update from 0900 this morning, so it seems they are now lying on the website.
Not if trams were running at 0900. There will be a delay between publishing the update and it appearing on the web servers. Three hours does seem excessive, but I don't know what route the update has to follow to get on to the web pages. I presume Metrolink control have to pass it on to GMPTE for them to publish.

Welcome.

I doubt if the Mauldeth Road trees will reach natural maturity in the next 20 years, they have already reached their unnatural maturity. They are a poor stunted and sickly bunch of trees, compare with the trees planted back from the edge of the road at the same time! Note not the trees that remain but the gaps where trees have been removed. There are more gaps than trees and many of the remaining are showing signs of injury and distress.

Track laying was carried out by means of machine but perhaps not as you envision. It was essentially two connected tracked units capable of picking a number of sleepers, (about 10?) positioning them and settling them in the ballast, then picking two lengths of rail and laying them into the shoes. In this manner about eight men were laying a length in a couple of minutes. The joints were clamped and eventually welded and ground to profile.

You are correct, the platform ramps have a level section mid-way, I assume as respite and safety for wheel-chair users.

I'm not sure what you mean by the original tram system dying completely. It certainly fell into total disuse though much of the rail was left in place and just surfaced over. The section in Heaton Park is not a fragment of the system but a more recent artefact.

The section of track in heaton park from Middleton rd to the shelter/depot is original. It was a spur that allowed the Sunday crowds to be moved from the park whilst keeping the peeps off the road.

Track laying was carried out by means of machine but perhaps not as you envision. It was essentially two connected tracked units capable of picking a number of sleepers, (about 10?) positioning them and settling them in the ballast, then picking two lengths of rail and laying them into the shoes. In this manner about eight men were laying a length in a couple of minutes. The joints were clamped and eventually welded and ground to profile.

Thank you.

You are correct, that is not what I imagined, having seen a video of track laying in Scotland of a new 13 mile line into Edinburgh.

The section of track in heaton park from Middleton rd to the shelter/depot is original. It was a spur that allowed the Sunday crowds to be moved from the park whilst keeping the peeps off the road.

I stand corrected, I thought the new tramway in the Park was unconnected with any original work.

I'm not sure what you mean by the original tram system dying completely. It certainly fell into total disuse though much of the rail was left in place and just surfaced over. The section in Heaton Park is not a fragment of the system but a more recent artefact.

The section of track in heaton park from Middleton rd to the shelter/depot is original. It was a spur that allowed the Sunday crowds to be moved from the park whilst keeping the peeps off the road.

Thank you both.

I am not sure where the rumours have come from that the Chorlton line might be operating by Christmas. All I can see is spring 2011.

Where have the rumours on here come from?

Also I am right in thinking that only the new trams will run on this line and not the dated T68s?

I wonder what the prices will be like. I currently buy a £2.40 return or a £2.90 off peak all day from Old Trafford or Stretford but if the Chorlton line is much more expensive I may continue to drive to Stretford and catch it from there :nuts:

A side note I traveled on the London underground last week and was amazed how good passanger information was. The PIDs were brilliant (though I never had to wait more than 1 minute anyway!) and every time the trains stopped at lights the driver would inform the passangers this was the reason it had stopped.

I really think this level of service is what metrolink need to provide. Arriving a metrolink station in the evenings you have no idea if the tram is 1 minute or 12 minutes away.

Another little rant anybody else finding the new ticket machines require too much preasure? Its annoying when the tram is in line of site and you're trying to buy a ticket but the silly touch screen dosn't respond.

I was speaking to one of the engineers a week or so ago and he was quite confident that a service will be running by Christmas so I'm not sure it qualifies as a rumour, more a none publicised fact.

Can't see why the Chorlton line should be more expensive than other lines in the same zone.

Chorlton will surely be the same as Dane Rd to Brooklands, i.e. the second zone out and more expensive than the closest stations e.g. Firswood and Trafford Bar.

I was speaking to one of the engineers a week or so ago and he was quite confident that a service will be running by Christmas so I'm not sure it qualifies as a rumour, more a none publicised fact.

Can't see why the Chorlton line should be more expensive than other lines in the same zone.

I am guessing Chorlton will be a different zone to Stretford though although its only the stop after Firswood and Firswood would have to be in the same zone as Stretford or it wouldn't make any sense.

I wonder if Metrolink are just being very cautious about scheduled times so we don't all start complaining when we are forced to get the flipping 8mph 86 bus into town!.

Chorlton will surely be the same as Dane Rd to Brooklands, i.e. the second zone out and more expensive than the closest stations e.g. Firswood and Trafford Bar.

But then Stretford is in the same zone as Trafford Bar too, this is where I am confused because Chorlton is no further than Stretford but then it also borders Sale (apart from the river in the way making the two places very different parts of Manchester).

I suppose it still has to be cheaper than the bus which is £3.50 because you have to buy a day rider. I drive so I have no need for a megarider but I much prefer to use the tram when using public transport.

I've been waiting since 2000 for this!.

Thinking about it I think it'll be in the same as Trafford Bar.

In fact I bet all the way out to the airport (other than the airport itself) will be in the cheapest zone given the wealth of the population who live a long way out on that line.

Yep I think it would make sense if Chorlton was the same zone as Trafford Bar and the Withington/Didsbury extention the same zone as Sale and then maybe Wythenshawe the same as Altrincham.

Also thinking that for Didsbury residents the Metrolink in terms of a means of getting to town may not be that great considering the amount of stops it has to go through, it goes west go to back east again.

What Didsbury really needed is a direct route along Wilsmlow Road but thats impossible for obvious reasons.

Yep I think it would make sense if Chorlton was the same zone as Trafford Bar and the Withington/Didsbury extention the same zone as Sale and then maybe Wythenshawe the same as Altrincham.

Also thinking that for Didsbury residents the Metrolink in terms of a means of getting to town may not be that great considering the amount of stops it has to go through, it goes west go to back east again.

What Didsbury really needed is a direct route along Wilsmlow Road but thats impossible for obvious reasons.

Also I am right in thinking that only the new trams will run on this line and not the dated T68s?


I think the plan was/is to refurbish all the T68's to allow them to run anywhere on the network. I reckon they will keep them on the Bury-Altrincham lines as doubles though

As long as they work and don't break down, I'm not too fussed.

A question before I become quiescent:

All the new lines are twin track, apart from the line to Rochdale.

The Altrincham line ends in a single track section, segregated from heavy rail, but this is not frequency-limiting.

The Eccles line has a single track station terminus, which does not appear to be frequency-limiting.

The East Manchester and Didsbury lines are unexceptional.

The Rochdale line starts twin track, changes to single track to allow heavy rail access, then twin track until Newbold or thereabouts, before becoming single track again, again upon encountering heavy rail.

Does this setup make sense, or would a single track with passing loops have worked just as well? You could argue that there is one big passing loop between Dean Road (?) and Newbold.

Once in Rochdale proper, the line becomes twin track again.

Does that serve a purpose, just for the length of Drake Street?

Someone on here will understand the frequency dynamics of tram services.

There is no way whatsoever that Wythenshawe will be in anything other than the cheapest zone which will mean the whole line (other than the bit passed the junction) will have to be in the cheapest zone.

Given what happened on the Eccles line when that opened when it was initially zoned that 'mistake' won't be repeated again.

EDIT: tried to post some photos but they didn't work properly. working on it...

A question before I become quiescent:

All the new lines are twin track, apart from the line to Rochdale.

The Altrincham line ends in a single track section, segregated from heavy rail, but this is not frequency-limiting.

The Eccles line has a single track station terminus, which does not appear to be frequency-limiting.

The East Manchester and Didsbury lines are unexceptional.

The Rochdale line starts twin track, changes to single track to allow heavy rail access, then twin track until Newbold or thereabouts, before becoming single track again, again upon encountering heavy rail.

Does this setup make sense, or would a single track with passing loops have worked just as well? You could argue that there is one big passing loop between Dean Road (?) and Newbold.

Once in Rochdale proper, the line becomes twin track again.

Does that serve a purpose, just for the length of Drake Street?

Someone on here will understand the frequency dynamics of tram services.

North of Shaw the service is only 5tph but I am sure that the infrastructure can cope with 10tph.

The Navy Rd section invovles a couple of crossings as well as the single track and operates at 10tph.

I suppose it still has to be cheaper than the bus which is £3.50 because you have to buy a day rider. I drive so I have no need for a megarider but I much prefer to use the tram when using public transport.

I've been waiting since 2000 for this!.

Get a season ticket. I pay £124 per quarter for unlimited use on the Eccles line. I'd guess Chorlton would be similar if not less (the distance and total number of stops are less).

Even with minimal use it works out cheaper than buying tickets and if you use it daily you save a load.

There is no way whatsoever that Wythenshawe will be in anything other than the cheapest zone which will mean the whole line (other than the bit passed the junction) will have to be in the cheapest zone.

Given what happened on the Eccles line when that opened when it was initially zoned that 'mistake' won't be repeated again.

What happened was it too expensive? I've never understood why the Eccles line is so cheap, I only figured because it was so damn slow. The faster a line is the more passangers would be willing to pay, assuming the population can afford it.

Initially it was zoned like the Phase 1 lines, broken into groups of 4 stops, 3 stops and 3 stops. Same pricing structure as the Alty & Bury lines.

No one west of Broadway used it it was running empty. The buses were miles cheaper and not so much slower. The area is not exactly full of people willing to pay a large supplement to get a slightly better service.

As such, within a short time the whole line was reduced to the cheapest price and hey presto passenger numbers started to climb pretty quick.

I may be wrong, but I think the Eccles line is actually cheaper to use than even the cheapest zones on Phase 1 and 2.

Get a season ticket. I pay £124 per quarter for unlimited use on the Eccles line. I'd guess Chorlton would be similar if not less (the distance and total number of stops are less).

Even with minimal use it works out cheaper than buying tickets and if you use it daily you save a load.

I don't use it that often as I have a car and I need one as I need to carry heavy items but I would never drive into town. I am finding I spend about £7-£8 on the Metrolink so it wouldn't be worth my while.

I would love an Oyster style card though I would just swipe each time I went on a tram. I have a habbit of missing trams when buying a ticket.

Also this is slightly beyond the scope of the extension but they need more ticket officers in the evening. Got the tram into town on Saturday and people were taking the **** pretending to be ticket officers as none in the group of chavs on the tram had a ticket.

As promised, some photos from out and about yesterday...

As I mentioned last night, there was a lot of driver training going on. Probably as a bit of a wake-up call from Wednesday's drama:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2cndudh.jpg

The collapsed pole has been dug back in:
http://i51.tinypic.com/35avzif.jpg

Wet paint at MC - couldn't tell where though, it all seemed dry:
http://i54.tinypic.com/xas8pf.jpg

Some more phots from a completely empty MediaCity:
http://i53.tinypic.com/yj5uu.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/zikgvo.jpg

http://i52.tinypic.com/2ivjup0.jpg

http://i52.tinypic.com/3009yqq.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/2z6b85x.jpg

This time next year, MC Stop will be booming with passengers, so it's great to be able to see it like this before all that :)

Initially it was zoned like the Phase 1 lines, broken into groups of 4 stops, 3 stops and 3 stops. Same pricing structure as the Alty & Bury lines.

No one west of Broadway used it it was running empty. The buses were miles cheaper and not so much slower. The area is not exactly full of people willing to pay a large supplement to get a slightly better service.

As such, within a short time the whole line was reduced to the cheapest price and hey presto passenger numbers started to climb pretty quick.

I may be wrong, but I think the Eccles line is actually cheaper to use than even the cheapest zones on Phase 1 and 2.

Its certainly much cheaper than the Altrincham line (maybe it should be called the Ian Brown line!). Last time I got the tram from Stretford to Dane Road I am sure it cost me £2 return!. Learnt my lesson and took the car the next time.

Welcome fjs - thanks for yr thoughtful posts :)

Your earlier question about short lengths of curved track - the one at Canalside Crossing (Clayton) was done as a small piece (now completed and metalled over), so that only one side of the road had to be closed at a time. They will now close the other half, while traffic contraflows over the newly-laid tracks.

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8061.jpg

I think the design intention has been for the whole system to be double track as far as posible, unless financially prohibitive or physically impractical. Passing loops impose severe restrictions on the timetable (as in Nottingham and a few places in Croydon), and trams are much more frequent than the previous heavy rail service. You mention Timperley-Alti, and a similar situation will obtain at 'Newton Heath and Moston' (Dean Lane). In both cases, it's to allow heavy rail in both directions on the other track, the prevailing view having been that never the twain shall meet (but will that view prevail for ever?)

Rochdale, the only single bit will comprise High Level Road and the new viaduct over the main railway line, presumably because of space constrictions. But unlike the previous Oldham Loop, it will then be re-doubled all the way to town, and Shaw will have an additional terminal siding on a third road. (I think there may be a error on one of the GMPTE diagrams ?Newbold).

Eccles would have been better with two platform faces (Morrisons wasn't there at the time), and I think they have slipped up in making MediaCityUK a single spur despite its 2 platforms at the end. However, it was only ever intended for 5 trams per hour, and that may be why the recent attempt to put 10 tph in there with portmanteau shunting arrangements, went breast upwards!

JoyDivision - I am sure that the Tram Information System will be as good as London Transport when Line of Sight working is finally up and running - we wait and await . . .any moment now? . . . anyone know when it will actually come to life ?? :cheers:

A first post.

7. Did the original tram system, which my father rode, die totally, or retreat into Heaton Park?

8. Does anyone know if there is an online map of the original tram system in Manchester?

You'll find loads on the former system, including a map here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Corporation_Tramways

And to whoever wrote that the old system fell into disuse: that was not the case at all as I understand it.

MCT trams were extremely popular (carrying millions more than the modern systems given the low level of car ownership and high penetration - just look at inner south Manchester on the Wiki page map) but they were deliberately run down and replaced by motor and trolley buses because that was seen as the 'modern' thing to do.

A course of action that was regrettably followed almost all over the world (exceptions being Melbourne, Milan, much of former Soviet Union/dependent states and Germany/Benelux countries who had the good sense to retain them).

And to whoever wrote that the old system fell into disuse: that was not the case at all as I understand it.

Depends on how pedantic you are. The corporation stopped services, the passengers could no longer use the services, ergo they fell into disuse.
After the bulk of the stock had been burnt they were no longer fit for use and therefore were disused. Though some cars and some track were relatively new, much wasn't had there was a huge backlog of maintenance and repair as a result of WWII and it was considered better to go with the future rather than resurrect the past.
I could have made it clearer though:cheers:

^^

Could the Altrincham Line work be for testing and commissioning the TOS equipment?
I'm not sure but I didn't think that the final missing bits of rail were installed yet at Trafford Bar onto the South Manchester Line, I thought there we still bits missing within the points. Maybe they intend to complete them.

As for the question about the operating areas for the T68s, the idea is supposed to be that once they have all had the folding couplers, fenders and side skirts they can go anywhere. Even with the fleet size as it will be once all the current orders are fulfilled I doubt there will be enough flexibility to restrict certain types to certain routes. They used to get very short of suitable trams for Eccles before the M5000s arrived because only the 2xxx series and 1005, 1010 & 1015 could work down there.

Another little rant anybody else finding the new ticket machines require too much preasure? Its annoying when the tram is in line of site and you're trying to buy a ticket but the silly touch screen dosn't respond.

Sometimes, but not as big a problem in my experience as the damn things not accepting coins, in which respect they are no better than their predecessors.
I noticed one at Market St where the metal fascia is covered in scratches where people have rubbed coin edges in an attempt to get them to be accepted. This is a 'dodge' Metrolink staff used on the old machines to help out, presumably people have see this done and are now doing it on the new ones, so we have brand new machines which look like they've suffered from years of vandalism.

One of the Piccadilly (Stn) machines had been fitted with a LED indication which went red after each coin until it had dropped through, then green. Presumably an experiment to regulate coin entry timing. Noticed last week this has now been removed.

Its certainly much cheaper than the Altrincham line (maybe it should be called the Ian Brown line!). Last time I got the tram from Stretford to Dane Road I am sure it cost me £2 return!. Learnt my lesson and took the car the next time.

I thought the Eccles Line had always been a single zone (Zone H). As for the example of Dane Road to Stretford some years ago they introduced a 'zone hopper' fare where a journey between two consecutive stops that were in different zones was priced as a single zone, has that gone now.

Could the Altrincham Line work be for testing and commissioning the TOS equipment?
I'm not sure but I didn't think that the final missing bits of rail were installed yet at Trafford Bar onto the South Manchester Line, I thought there we still bits missing within the points. Maybe they intend to complete them.


I doubt it's to do with the TOS to be honest. It's more likely that it will be done on the Eccles/MediaCity line before the Alti line gets sorted.

I would imagine they would be connecting up the final missing bits of rail.

The Altrincham one puzzles me a little - there had already been a closure some time back so that the connecting trackwork could be sorted.

Unless perhaps... the wires are getting switched on?! :banana:

I'm not sure if they extend all the way to St. Werburgh's yet, but as of a few days ago they had certainly reached the Chorlton stop.

Hi Nymanic. The wires currently stop just short of St Werburgh's Road, and the tin man's hats a touch further back :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8076.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8078.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8081.jpg

However, to-day they were planting the final pole (of Phase 3a) at the far end of the St Werburgh' headshunt, just below Mauldeth Road West :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8095.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8096.jpg

Nothing much has happened, however, towards East Didsbury 3b, apart from some loose rails stored on the other side of the bridge, and nothing at all towards the Airport at that spot :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8097.jpg

This underbridge used to be inaccessible and full of earth - now it accesses the foot of the lift shaft :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8082.jpg

I think this next shot will be one of the nicest approaches to St W's - from the foot & cycle path which used to be the Fallowfield Loop. I am looking forward to taking it again, when from a distance you will be able to see a yellow tram at the platform amidst all the greenery :cucumber::banana::cucumber: :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8086.jpg

Out and about today, I realised the yellow colour is beginning to grow on me at last. It looks particularly good against a green or vegetacious background in the Autumn . . .

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8057.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8051.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8053.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8062.jpg

I hope they paint all Stagecoach buses like the new 'green' ones in the new green colours. Then the trams and buses would go well together.

Could the Altrincham Line work be for testing and commissioning the TOS equipment?
I'm not sure but I didn't think that the final missing bits of rail were installed yet at Trafford Bar onto the South Manchester Line, I thought there we still bits missing within the points. Maybe they intend to complete them.


There's still a full gap (both rails) between the outbound Chorlton line and the turnout in the Altrincham line (up to last week at least).

The gaps in points are most likely because of the existing Track Circuits. To put the rails in now would require insulated joints to prevent shorting them out (causing a signalling failure), but these would be a waste because once the TCs go, when the existing signalling is abolished, no joints will be needed. This practice is often resorted to on 'BR' during stageworks for remodelling schemes, insulated joints are not cheap, so doing it this way lets most of the layout be put in physically (but secured out of use), without breaking the existing signalling.

You'll find loads on the former system, including a map here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Corporation_Tramways

And to whoever wrote that the old system fell into disuse: that was not the case at all as I understand it.

MCT trams were extremely popular (carrying millions more than the modern systems given the low level of car ownership and high penetration - just look at inner south Manchester on the Wiki page map) but they were deliberately run down and replaced by motor and trolley buses because that was seen as the 'modern' thing to do.

A course of action that was regrettably followed almost all over the world (exceptions being Melbourne, Milan, much of former Soviet Union/dependent states and Germany/Benelux countries who had the good sense to retain them).

Thank you for the useful link, now stored in North Carolina and Singapore so I don't lose it. That was the data I needed.

I think a lot of tram systems atrophied not only because of technological change - buses evolved fairly rapidly from open topped charabancs to something reliable and useful - but also because there was no allowance for depreciation is Corporation accounts, to allow for system renewal.

I have no idea as to the extent of subsidy of the present day system, but suspect that its financial underpinnings are key to its future survival.

Are the new trams leased from Bombardier? I do not know.

As far as I am aware the trams have been bought out right from Bombardier with cash. The cash coming from loans from Greater Manchester councils and the government.

Welcome fjs - thanks for yr thoughtful posts :)

Your earlier question about short lengths of curved track - the one at Canalside Crossing (Clayton) was done as a small piece (now completed and metalled over), so that only one side of the road had to be closed at a time. They will now close the other half, while traffic contraflows over the newly-laid tracks.

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8061.jpg

I think the design intention has been for the whole system to be double track as far as posible, unless financially prohibitive or physically impractical. Passing loops impose severe restrictions on the timetable (as in Nottingham and a few places in Croydon), and trams are much more frequent than the previous heavy rail service. You mention Timperley-Alti, and a similar situation will obtain at 'Newton Heath and Moston' (Dean Lane). In both cases, it's to allow heavy rail in both directions on the other track, the prevailing view having been that never the twain shall meet (but will that view prevail for ever?)

Rochdale, the only single bit will comprise High Level Road and the new viaduct over the main railway line, presumably because of space constrictions. But unlike the previous Oldham Loop, it will then be re-doubled all the way to town, and Shaw will have an additional terminal siding on a third road. (I think there may be a error on one of the GMPTE diagrams ?Newbold).

Eccles would have been better with two platform faces (Morrisons wasn't there at the time), and I think they have slipped up in making MediaCityUK a single spur despite its 2 platforms at the end. However, it was only ever intended for 5 trams per hour, and that may be why the recent attempt to put 10 tph in there with portmanteau shunting arrangements, went breast upwards!

JoyDivision - I am sure that the Tram Information System will be as good as London Transport when Line of Sight working is finally up and running - we wait and await . . .any moment now? . . . anyone know when it will actually come to life ?? :cheers:

Sorry, I was not clear enough about the curved track question.

I understand logistically that the road section would have to be completed in two halves. What I do not understand is why the curved section running proximally back to Piccadilly from there is crafted in 2 or 3 metre sections. Concrete poured and allowed to set; rails placed, spaced and fixed; and then joints presumably welded and ground down, all with no obvious allowance for expansion or contraction.

Like everyone else on this forum, I watched the Papal procession through Edinburgh avidly, my eyes glued to the apparently poor trackwork on Princes Street there, rather that the successor to Saint Peter. I am sure there must be joints somewhere in the Manchester track.

As to the twin track question: I recognise the point you are making, but don't know if it all makes sense.

You will remember enzyme kinetics from your school days, for instance the Embden-Meyerhof pathway.

This has rate-limiting steps: so does the tram system, at the single track sections, for higher frequency operation. Someone must have modelled this, somewhere.

I hope so, anyway.

Bought for around £1.9m each, with a support service contract so Bombadier have to maintain them if they go wrong or dont meet spec though day to day maintenance is inhouse.

Whats more interesting is the support network for the T68's, most of their electrical and mechanical components arent manufactured anymore so they had to find companies willing to copy the components under license, in some cases where suppliers had gone bust and no plans were available they had to reverse engineer the components so they could copy them.

Its not concrete, its some kind of polymer which allows that expansion and contraction your talking about. Though ints not quite as durable as concrete as ive seen some places (like piccadilly undercroft) where running water has over the years eroded it away.

Edit: Via freezing cycle of course

Its not concrete, its some kind of polymer which allows that expansion and contraction your talking about. Though ints not quite as durable as concrete as ive seen some places (like piccadilly undercroft) where running water has over the years eroded it away.

Thank you.

Apropos the ticket machine comments, is it possible to use the touch screens with a pen, or some other instrument?

I have been ill for the last 18 months, but am now recovering. I wear vinyl gloves to protect my hands, as the skin now drops off them fairly readily. The capacitive function of the touch screens does not work for me.

The workaround was to take my son with me, but he and I have had a major disagreement, so I need an alternative means of buying tram tickets.

A first post.

8. Does anyone know if there is an online map of the original tram system in Manchester?

Here's a map I scanned from the inside cover of a book hence the blurry bit in the middle. I've got a bigger paper map which I'll run through the office scanner and post.

http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/Vernon151/TramwayMap1.jpg

You have to factor in all the neighbouring towns had tram networks as well, and they were interconnected so you could cross the county just on various towns municipal trams.

JoyDivision82,

One way to avoid missing trams is to carry the timetable around in your head (as I do). For example, Bury line trams leave Piccadilly Undercroft at 01, 13, 25, 37 and 49 minutes past the hour on Monday to Saturday. The Altrincham line goes at 09, 21, 33, 45 and 57 from the Undercroft on Monday to Saturday. Piccadilly trams leave Altrincham at 05, 17, 29, 41 and 53 past the hour on Monday to Saturday. Times for each stop can be found on the Journey Planner on the GMPTE website.

The wire meshing finish on the manchester Road bridge in Chorlton has been taken down. Wonder what it will be replaced with? Surely can't be for safety reasons as the same finish is used at the Ladywell underpass.

Apropos the ticket machine comments, is it possible to use the touch screens with a pen, or some other instrument?

I have been ill for the last 18 months, but am now recovering. I wear vinyl gloves to protect my hands, as the skin now drops off them fairly readily. The capacitive function of the touch screens does not work for me.

The workaround was to take my son with me, but he and I have had a major disagreement, so I need an alternative means of buying tram tickets.

without being crass - use a sausage! i seriously know someone who had the same issue on their phone when wearing gloves. they used a trimmed down pepperonni to press on the screen.

other uses include improving tv reception. as people know tv reception is improved when touching the aerial....so use a sausage to do the job for you!

back on topic - has 2cc been confirmed as not going up deansgate?

without being crass - use a sausage! i seriously know someone who had the same issue on their phone when wearing gloves. they used a trimmed down pepperonni to press on the screen.

other uses include improving tv reception. as people know tv reception is improved when touching the aerial....so use a sausage to do the job for you!

back on topic - has 2cc been confirmed as not going up deansgate?

thats a good idea, coz you can eat it once you have your ticket.

2CC not going up Deansgate. It never was , it was all a whitewash. It always was going to go down Cross Street which is why they stopped traffic years ago with that in mind.

Here's a map I scanned from the inside cover of a book hence the blurry bit in the middle. I've got a bigger paper map which I'll run through the office scanner and post.

http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/Vernon151/TramwayMap1.jpg

Nice map ExManc! Look forward to seeing your larger one (so to speak!).

And to ChorltonBloke: yeah I wasn't being arsey - I just wanted to make the point that the heritage tram networks were (run down) and closed prematurely and that if we had the benefit of foresight over astonishment we no doubt would have questioned the wisdom of shutting such a marvelous and practical infrastructure. :-)

I think the reasons for the closure was a bit more complicated than that. Such an extensive tram network required a lot of maintance and we didn't have the same technology back then as we do now.

After WII Britian was short of smackeroonies and with the motorbus improving all the time the easiest thing was to just replace with with buses which could run any where without expensive tracks or overhead cables to keep repairing.

I do believe though many cities (especialy up north) have suffered to be truly European class as a result though.

Here's the other map

http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/Vernon151/ManchesterCorporationTramways.jpg

Ex-Manc - do you have a bigger picture of that map?

The Manchester tramway abandonment was well under way before the war, and the trams only lasted until 1949 because of fuel shortages and the difficulty in obtaining new buses. They simply wouldn't have thought of reversing their policy in 1945.

The genius behind Manchester's abandonment was the Manager, R. Stuart Pilcher, who abandoned the '53' in 1929, Altrincham in 1931, and soon after talked the Council into wholesale replacement of trams by buses. (The trolleybuses we had were forced on him by a faction in the Council, they were not part of the original plan.)

Circa 1930 there was a Government-sponsored report that recommended the gradual abandonment of tramways in this country; after that only a very few cities had the bottle to go against the flow and all of these changed their minds by the 1950s. This country has long suffered from short-term thinking, and the fact was it was cheaper (initially) to substitute buses for trams. The buses were also supposed to be more 'flexible' and not cause congestion, as trams were claimed to do. Well, we know how that worked out, don't we?

To be fair most the current problem we have with buses is due to the 1986 act of madness which meant most bus services are only run for profit. I wasn't around in the 60's or 70's but from what I was told public transport in Manchester was a lot better than it is now.

To be fair most the current problem we have with buses is due to the 1986 act of madness which meant most bus services are only run for profit. I wasn't around in the 60's or 70's but from what I was told public transport in Manchester was a lot better than it is now.

Correct you're referring to the '85 Deregulation. Before that you had buses operating to/from socially excluded areas more frequently than after de-regulation.

I thought the main reason for tramway abandonment was so that they didn't get in the way of motor cars? Manchester, post-1945 was planning its highway network on the parkway concept, with all through traffic removed from districts (renamed environmental areas). Hence why the likes of Fort Beswick, Fort Ardwick, Hulme, etc. were built in readiness for road schemes. Manchester also had higher rates of cycling (10%+) prior to tramway/railway suburbanisation.

IIRC, wasn't it possible to travel from the coast (Liverpool) to the hills (Saddleworth or Glossop) by tram, but with changes of vehicle?

Yeah, but in some ways you have to think of these old tram systems more like proto-bus networks rather than modern light rail. Most of the vehicles could only carry 20 or so, some of the smaller ones 10 or less.

And they were probably uncomfortable at any speed above 20mph. And of course if those trams still ran today they would have to share ther roads with motor vehicles anyway.

Look at the Eccles line its no quicker than the bus :)

The large map displayed by ExManc is from The Manchester Tramways by Ian Yearsley & Philip Grove, which I am sure will be out of print, although I would think copies would be available in the reference library. Another way of looking at the tramways of Manchester is by using www.old-maps.co.uk . Click on to the web-site and type in Manchester,when the modern map appears pinpoint the area you want with a click and a list of old maps scrolls down on the right. Choose 1922-33 Lancashire & Furness 1:2500 with a click and the area you have chosen gradually appears. You can enlarge it to full screen size. You have to go back to the original map to find another aspect.

It's certainly true that the first generation trams were a very different animal from those of today, but they were generally of larger capacity than buses of the time. Most in Manchester were double deckers with 80 plus seats. They were slow and uncomfortable, but that was because the system was never modernised and basically stuck with 1920s technology at best. They never progressed beyond hand brakes for a start!! Systems like Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield and Glasgow took traditional trams to the next level. If you check out Sheffield 513 at Crich, for example, it's much more comfortable than a bus from the same era - 1950.

There were plans in the late 20s to take trams out on reserved tracks to Wythenshawe and Moston. If you go down Broadway in Moston, for example, you'll see a big strip of grass in the middle of the road that was intended as a tram reservation. Ditto Mauldeth Road West. Mr Pilcher had other ideas. Arguably he was right - at the time. We have the benefit of hindsight. Modernising the tramways would have cost a lot of capital. The likes of Liverpool went down that path and still ended up scrapping their system - though you do get a lot of nice grass strips down roads in Liverpool as a result!

I wish I could have ridden on one of the Wigan steam trams however.
We had all 4 systems
Horse driven, Steam, Electric and Trolleybus.

I thought the Eccles Line had always been a single zone (Zone H).
No, as WirlieG posted it originally had similar zones to the rest of the network. When the line opened I lived near Ladywell and had the choice of paying something like £4.40 for a peak return to Manchester by tram, around £2 on the train from Eccles (bit of a walk but only a 9 minute journey) or get the bus, which is what I normally did.

I think this next shot will be one of the nicest approaches to St W's - from the foot & cycle path which used to be the Fallowfield Loop. I am looking forward to taking it again, when from a distance you will be able to see a yellow tram at the platform amidst all the greenery :cucumber::banana::cucumber: :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_8086.jpg

In the pole planting photo, were they taking down or putting up the fence?

Johnny's photo sequences, . . .are under reconstruction at present.Hopefully back by Easter 2012! (ish)

Edit - I just realised I bagged Post # 5000 !!! So to mark the occasion here are a few pix from the past :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_3730.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_3792.jpg

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http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Mumps%20Temporary/101_5314.jpg

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http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/m24_Chorlton-16Nov08_1028.jpg

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Pink Floyd? :-
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/101_1066.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_3216.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/untitled.jpg
above pic c/- Tony H1 Local Lad

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/100_4307-1.jpg