Goes to show what we could have had if only we had got the right levels of investment since the thing was built.

Doubt we will be seeing multiple staff at Piccadilly on a regular basis, other than when United are at home.

Good idea to have them on each station as the new machines are introduced though.

I have just used the new Piccadilly stop this morning and its vv impressive, it was manned by about 7 metrolink staff, one of which was proactive and approached me to offer assistance and expalined the new ticket machines (which are very impressive) once the new trams are up and running I feel we will have a tram system that will rival many in Europe and be the envy of many other cities... well done to all involved

I used it from Piccadilly Station before. Going down Mosley Street before was one of the quietest/smoothest rides I've ever had on the Metrolink. Didn't feel one bump or hear one clang.

I used it from Piccadilly Station before. Going down Mosley Street before was one of the quietest/smoothest rides I've ever had on the Metrolink. Didn't feel one bump or hear one clang.

Must have been me driving lol

Have you drivers been driving across the new city centre tracks?

Any comments?

I used it from Piccadilly Station before. Going down Mosley Street before was one of the quietest/smoothest rides I've ever had on the Metrolink. Didn't feel one bump or hear one clang.

In that case I'll assume that 1011 has hexagonal wheels as it was pretty bumpy going from Victoria to High Street!

Yes, it's a Massive improvement, I was Driving a Phase 2 this morning with No wheel flats, Very smooth and quiet, Everything seemed to run quite smoothly today, No major delays on the system, 1010 had to return to the depot this morning as it was getting ATS Trips all over the place, apart from that A-OK :)

Yes, it's a Massive improvement, I was Driving a Phase 2 this morning with No wheel flats, Very smooth and quiet, Everything seemed to run quite smoothly today, No major delays on the system, 1010 had to return to the depot this morning as it was getting ATS Trips all over the place, apart from that A-OK :)

Just had a phone call. Service has been suspended, surprise, surprise.

How come its always when United play at home? Am sure City fans run it.

So all the signalling is now working ok?

No issues with points or anything like that?

With the new trams soon coming online hopefully the reliability of the older trams can be vastly improved - less jolting to damage them now the tracks are better - plus more time to resolve any issues as there is more and more capacity.

Just had a phone call. Service has been suspended, surprise, surprise.

How come its always when United play at home? Am sure City fans run it.

Looks like i spoke too soon loll, well it was ok this morning, Couple of UTC's need sorting out, as they are a little out of synch with traffic lights, Points seemed to work ok today aswell.

Anyone know why service has been suspended??

So all the signalling is now working ok?

No issues with points or anything like that?

With the new trams soon coming online hopefully the reliability of the older trams can be vastly improved - less jolting to damage them now the tracks are better - plus more time to resolve any issues as there is more and more capacity.

Such optimism! I'm currently stuck on a broken down tram near Stretford. Same old same old, on a match day too.

Nowt on the web site, either just happened,already fixed or a minor issue that they will get fixed v soon.

The web site has been very good recently with updates.

Any word on what the delays are Andy?

Which lines and what is wrong?

Such optimism! I'm currently stuck on a broken down tram near Stretford. Same old same old, on a match day too.

That won't take long to fix.

Shift it out of the way in less than 20mins I reckon.

Nowt on the web site, either just happened,already fixed or a minor issue that they will get fixed v soon.

The web site has been very good recently with updates.

Any word on what the delays are Andy?

Which lines and what is wrong?

Going towards Alti I believe. As Chorltonred says Broken down tram. I had a feeling it would be that anyway.

That won't take long to fix.

Shift it out of the way in less than 20mins I reckon.

It's been an hour already! They've just coupled us to the broken down tram. But we still can't move towards Altrincham because the whole system has been suspended due to an accident in the city centre. I only found this out after asking the driver, who has failed to keep the passengers informed in true Metrolink style.

It's been an hour already! They've just coupled us to the broken down tram. But we still can't move towards Altrincham because the whole system has been suspended due to an accident in the city centre. I only found this out after asking the driver, who has failed to keep the passengers informed in true Metrolink style.

I think its time to just ban all traffic from using the city centre lines. Armed guards with rocket launches for pricks who crash into trams and the Mosley Street Buses can do one! Close the road off to them.

I think its time to just ban all traffic from using the city centre lines. Armed guards with rocket launches for pricks who crash into trams and the Mosley Street Buses can do one! Close the road off to them.

Finally arrived at Dane Road an hour late. Accidents and breakdowns happen but their total failure to keep us informed of what's going on is inexcusable.

Now been stood at Old Trafford for half an hour waiting for a tram into town.

All we're getting over the tannoy is 'services are operating but subject to severe delays' with no further info on when we may expect to actually see a tram

:ohno:

And the two guys manning the crossing don't have any information because they 'don't work for Metrolink'

Am I right in thinking the tanoy can only play recordings still?

Sounds like it

Just got on a tram now.

Finally arrived at Dane Road an hour late. Accidents and breakdowns happen but their total failure to keep us informed of what's going on is inexcusable.

Prick drove his/her car into a tram at 6ish and you guessed it on mosley street! If the prick is reading this, I hope they crush your car! My arguement for closing the street off to traffic is stronger than ever. Traffic and trams to do mix!

Chorltonred I think Morrissey has escaped from his bedroom on Kings Road and knicked some over head cables under the Iron Bridge :bash::lol::nuts:

Driver was probably someone hired by the MEN, disappointed that they didn't get the "Massive Tram Failure" front page news they were hoping for.

I can just imagine him, 50 years old in an Jaguar thinking he is above public transport...

If it is true I assume this means another tram out of action?

Driver was probably someone hired by the MEN, disappointed that they didn't get the "Massive Tram Failure" front page news they were hoping for.

Well I needed something to make me laugh :lol:

I can just imagine him, 50 years old in an Jaguar thinking he is above public transport...

If it is true I assume this means another tram out of action?

If it is true I assume this means another tram out of action?

not sure - staff at Picc Gardens didn't know whether a tram was involved or not, just some form of RTA

Could have been dead bus or RTA on Mosley or crossing Mosley.

not sure - staff at Picc Gardens didn't know whether a tram was involved or not, just some form of RTA

As much as love cars and I am pro car I really hate the majority of people that into the city centre. I know it is a essential for many people but most the times its just lazyness and they cause problems for the rest of us :ohno:

I was so close to getting the tram this evening too, glad I stayed at home. I am not looking forward to all the MEN comments because I can't go and thump the authors of them :(.

Nothing on the news so I am suspecting the accident was pretty minor but enough to block a tram line.

Prick drove his/her car into a tram at 6ish and you guessed it on mosley street! If the prick is reading this, I hope they crush your car! My arguement for closing the street off to traffic is stronger than ever. Traffic and trams to do mix!

Traffic and trams DO mix... otherwise it wouldn't be a tram, it would be a train.

Indeed.

We cannot remove all the road crossings and every point a tram line crosses a road, it just is not fessible, nor sensible.

What needs to be done is we have redundancy in the network so when what should be rare event do occur we can shift all the trams down a seperate line.

Problem is, that is 6 years away still.

It's amazing what a bit of branding can do. The old brand was woefully inadequate. Yellow is a very warm, positive colour. Looks like every aspect of the Metrolink has been considered, check the links below for the trams, stations and even staff;

http://www.hemispheredmc.com/work/102/tram-stop-refurbishment

http://www.hemispheredmc.com/work/44/metrolink-rebrand

http://www.hemispheredmc.com/work/103/uniform-development

Has anybody got any photos of the new Piccadilly Gardens stop? I'd be especially interested in the new ticket machines..

Traffic and trams DO mix... otherwise it wouldn't be a tram, it would be a train.

When a car or a bus or a van or a truck hits a tram it doesn't fucking mix. It causes hell!

Indeed.

We cannot remove all the road crossings and every point a tram line crosses a road, it just is not fessible, nor sensible.

What needs to be done is we have redundancy in the network so when what should be rare event do occur we can shift all the trams down a seperate line.

Problem is, that is 6 years away still.

Is the second city crossing really 6 years away?

What I don't understand is why the whole system stops when there's an incident at one location, is it H&S procedures that they have to stop the whole network until they have determined the exact location of the accident? Why for example couldn't the accident at Mosley street be reported (if that's what actually happened), and immediately the trams are told to start turning around at, for example G-Mex (or wherever the nearest cross-over point is). Obviously there would be problems of trams being in the wrong place, but they must be able to develop a system whereby they minimise the disruption.

Also on the 2CC note - even once it's built, the Cornbrook viaduct is still a vital link - one failure there (breakdown/derailing) can bring the whole system to a stand-still.

What I don't understand is why the whole system stops when there's an incident at one location, is it H&S procedures that they have to stop the whole network until they have determined the exact location of the accident? Why for example couldn't the accident at Mosley street be reported (if that's what actually happened), and immediately the trams are told to start turning around at, for example G-Mex (or wherever the nearest cross-over point is). Obviously there would be problems of trams being in the wrong place, but they must be able to develop a system whereby they minimise the disruption.

Also on the 2CC note - even once it's built, the Cornbrook viaduct is still a vital link - one failure there (breakdown/derailing) can bring the whole system to a stand-still.

I think it is because the trams can't get back to other parts of the city due to the blockage.

I wouldn't surprise me if this happened at either the York St or Charlotte St intersections, both these have poor lines of sight given the tall buildings.

Perhaps they should introduce the much loved bollards? Then that way just the vehicle would be damaged, rather than the tram and the resultant service disruption?

Go one step further, IMO, and block off these side streets, its not as if they are poorly connected to other streets. However, Metroshuttle 1 would have to be rerouted somehow?

Tram takes an interesting route through the city...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmysheeran/4061918403/

Tram takes an interesting route through the city...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmysheeran/4061918403/

On its way to Queens Rd!?

It's amazing what a bit of branding can do. The old brand was woefully inadequate. Yellow is a very warm, positive colour. Looks like every aspect of the Metrolink has been considered, check the links below for the trams, stations and even staff;

http://www.hemispheredmc.com/work/102/tram-stop-refurbishment

http://www.hemispheredmc.com/work/44/metrolink-rebrand

http://www.hemispheredmc.com/work/103/uniform-development

Has anybody got any photos of the new Piccadilly Gardens stop? I'd be especially interested in the new ticket machines..

I used Piccadilly yesterday... the stop looks amazing, and the TVM`s are all singing and dancing.. offering a multitude of ticket options all touch screen etc etc, pity I didn`t have my camera with me
:banana:

Yes, 2CC will probably be about 5-6 years away.

Not even got planning / TWA yet for it.

When a car or a bus or a van or a truck hits a tram it doesn't fucking mix. It causes hell!

There's no need to use bad language is there?

There's no need to use bad language is there?

When 10,000s are delayed by one idiot, it's the prefect time to use that language. Thats what it's designed for. If you can't use the word f*** at times like that when can you use it? 'Oh fiddle sticks someones crashed into a tram'

Get to Sale station this morning and guess what? Huge crowd on platform, no trams and a single announcement over the tannoy ever 15 minutes of a 'slight delay'. The service is back to being an unreliable joke. It was much better just getting double trams to St Peters like a, uhm, train service.

The crossover is back on Aytoun Street, but not as noisy as it was. Whatever happened to the ones they were going to put in on Mosley Street and High Street or is more disruption on the cards?

What I don't understand is why the whole system stops when there's an incident at one location, is it H&S procedures that they have to stop the whole network until they have determined the exact location of the accident? .

I’ve often wandered about that.
I was walking past Shude Hill interchange the other day .. all the nearby roads were closed, you couldn’t get in to the car park, busses were being diverted, and had the trams been running they would have been fucked as well.
There were about 3 or 4 police vans, an ambulance, several fire appliances and the place was crawling with GMPTE / car park personnel. Total chaos in other words.

Suspecting some sort of terrorist outrage or nuclear gas leak, I enquired in the nearby Cost Cutter.
The one word answer from the youth behind the counter was “suicide”. So I naturally assumed the person was about to hurl himself from the car-park roof... until he added, “Yeah - jumped about 15 minutes ago”.
15 MINUTES !!! what the fuck were they doing ?? looking for clues ??? Why the cavalry ??
Take a picture, scrape him off the road, and get every thing going again.
Jesus it made my blood boil.

Was watching a program about the Indian railways a while back. If someone jumps in front of a train (like they frequently do on the tube) they aim to have trains running again in 90 seconds !!! That’s how it should be done !!

Well its back to the usual knashing of teeth in the MEN about the problems of the past couple of days.
I remember a couple of months ago half joking that how long would it be once the city centre is reopened for there to be a collition with a tram and a car.

Well its back to the usual knashing of teeth in the MEN about the problems of the past couple of days.
I remember a couple of months ago half joking that how long would it be once the city centre is reopened for there to be a collition with a tram and a car.

Typical MEN reporting of it;

The first delay was caused when a tram collided with a car crossing tracks at the junction of Mosley Street and Booth Street in the city centre 5.55pm last night

Notice its the tram colliding with a car, not a car colliding with the tram.

Tossers.

Dosn't look well on Mancs when they are people buying and reading such drivel. Its about time Manchester had a proper paper rather than a silly tabloid aimed at the ITV market.

Dosn't look well on Mancs when they are people buying and reading such drivel. Its about time Manchester had a proper paper rather than a silly tabloid aimed at the ITV market.

No chance of that with GMG in charge - too busy slashing and burning at the MEN (and elsewhere) to support their online nonsense.

All we get left with is barely tabloid standard crap, with a few notable exceptions, in particular David Ottewell and Stuart Brennan.

They are seriously hampered by the desperate lack of trams.

Taking the trams out of service for maintenance means holes in the service, obviously they need to make a judgement about how premtive they are with taking a tram out of service to fix a fault. The longer they take it out, the more pissed off people as the more gaps in the service.

When you have 26 trams to operate a 10tph service on the Alty / Eccles line, which requires 23 trams, and 5 trams for the Eccles line, which requires 5 trams (2001 is dead) then there really is very little oppurtunity to fix trams other than from 1am until 5am each day.

I have complained in the past that proper maintenance of the Metrolink trams seems to have taken a back seat in the past; and Metrolink VI rightly points out that the numbers of trams has been too low to allow them to be taken out of service for (say) a week at a time.
However, there have been periods during the last 2 years (and this summer in particular) when only a fraction of the tram fleet has been running at any one time. Why didn't Stagecoach Metrolink undertake a thorough overall of the most unreliable of the trams?:ohno:

6mins service I think.

Just the crowds are back and people are not getting on the first tram.


plus the service was a complete farce.

Back to the long delays, usual excuses and disregard for public saftey, no or few announcements and of course the usual ill thought out - changing drivers in the rush hour policy. By the disregard for public saftey I mean on Monday the tram didn't stop long enough at woodlands road and the doors started shutting on people getting off (which often happens) and it had to be held back by customers on the platform.

It'll be interesting to see how metrolink works with the new lines, considering they can hardly get a decent service at the moment, and the system is relativly small.

Will the new trams actually in real terms increase capacity on the existing lines, or are they partially (or compltely) for the new lines? As I wouldn't even bother try getting on south of Whitefield during the rush hour, as people south of whitefield often struggle to get on the tram. Just some recent statements have made me wonder.

It was much better just getting double trams to St Peters like a, uhm, train service.
I think if they keep being unable to run anything near a decent service, they should scrap running trams through the city centre at rush hour and have a shuttle service in the city centre between victoria, st peters sq and picadilly.

OK got some tram reporting to do. I did a journey on train from Warrington to Manchester (had to go to Warrington to see a friend) but instead of getting of at Oxford Rd and then walking down to St Peters square I stupidly stayed on at Picciddily. I then had to get the met to Stretford from there. I finally got to the tram stop and missed it by no more than 5 seconds.

I had to wait 15 minutes before an Eccles tram turned up, so I boarded that so I could change at Cornbrook which I did. Any some observations:-

Most Altrincham bound trams now have electric displays inside which is brilliant, very clear too. 1024,1023 were two.

None of the 2000 series trams seem to have them yet.

Tram ride through the centre is much much smoother

Was talking to staff at Cornbrook which had no idea whats wrong with the points. They suggested it is because they have not had trams running on them for ages, I pointed out they are brand new to which they replied they may need adjusting till they settle in.:bash:

Are you Comdot's brother ? you sound like it :)

plus the service was a complete farce.

Back to the long delays, usual excuses and disregard for public saftey, no or few announcements and of course the usual ill thought out - changing drivers in the rush hour policy. By the disregard for public saftey I mean on Monday the tram didn't stop long enough at woodlands road and the doors started shutting on people getting off (which often happens) and it had to be held back by customers on the platform.

It'll be interesting to see how metrolink works with the new lines, considering they can hardly get a decent service at the moment, and the system is relativly small.

Will the new trams actually in real terms increase capacity on the existing lines, or are they partially (or compltely) for the new lines? As I wouldn't even bother try getting on south of Whitefield during the rush hour, as people south of whitefield often struggle to get on the tram. Just some recent statements have made me wonder.


I think if they keep being unable to run anything near a decent service, they should scrap running trams through the city centre at rush hour and have a shuttle service in the city centre between victoria, st peters sq and picadilly.

I agree completely. On the safety point, when the tram broke ahead of us broke down on Tuesday night our tram obvioulsy had to jump a couple of signals on red to link up with it, causing the emergency brakes to apply. However the driver did this without giving any warning whatsoever before the event or any explanation afterwards. It was extremely dangerous with people flying down the tram.

We then sat in Stretford station for 40 minutes whilst they figured out what to do. The driver did not make a single announcement about what was going on. In the end I went and asked (the two drivers were outside chatting) and suggested that they might like to let the remaining passengers on the tram know what was going on. One says "Don't tell me mate, I've told my tram." The other just looks sheepish. They don't give a toss.

Now at Picadilly there is still no digital display. If you come out on the station whilst a tram is on the platform there is no easy way of telling where it is going. Little things like this which should have been sorted years ago betray the lack of customer service.

And I still love the Metrolink depsite my gripes, but they need to sort it out.

Looks like you'll be missing a few more trams or getting on the wrong ones for a bit yet.
It was saying somewhere the new displays at tram stops won't be in till spring next year.
Also thought the desitations of the trams was also on the sides of them.

Edit... Mode1 beat me too it!

Piccadilly did have those small electronic screens but they have took them all down. According to that metrolink pdf a few posts back, the new screens are due up Spring time 2010 when the new 'tram operating system' is finally working. They will be the same as the ones on Manchester Victoria and Salford Central etc

Why have they taken them down now though? Surely it was best to leave them until they were ready to be replaced? Did they just stop working? I found them very useful.

In fact they are a vital for a service that seems to spend more time broken down than running :lol: [if you believe MEN]

Maybe people want to start having ago at the muppets in cars oh and bus drivers who run red light's and dont look to see if a tram is coming hence why accidents are happening.Remmber trams can't overtake so you are going to get delays when these things happen,some people are very quick to slag the service of with out a propper understanding of what the problems are and how they happen! since i have been driving threw the city i have had to do 8 emergency stop's thanks to jo public not looking where they are going and car's and busses running red lights.

The information signs will be unable to provide until the new Tram Operating System is fully commissioned as without it there will be no ddata to drive them. The old ones were pretty unreliable anyway and frequently showed wrong information which in my view is worse than none at all.
There is no defence however for the lask of announcements either on tram or on tram stop. That's just sheer laziness.

I agree completely. On the safety point, when the tram broke ahead of us broke down on Tuesday night our tram obvioulsy had to jump a couple of signals on red to link up with it, causing the emergency brakes to apply. However the driver did this without giving any warning whatsoever before the event or any explanation afterwards. It was extremely dangerous with people flying down the tram.

We then sat in Stretford station for 40 minutes whilst they figured out what to do. The driver did not make a single announcement about what was going on. In the end I went and asked (the two drivers were outside chatting) and suggested that they might like to let the remaining passengers on the tram know what was going on. One says "Don't tell me mate, I've told my tram." The other just looks sheepish. They don't give a toss.

Now at Picadilly there is still no digital display. If you come out on the station whilst a tram is on the platform there is no easy way of telling where it is going. Little things like this which should have been sorted years ago betray the lack of customer service.

And I still love the Metrolink depsite my gripes, but they need to sort it out.


Perhaps one of our tram driver forummers could shed some light on this issue, what is Metrolinks policy an keeping passengers informed with information on stranded trams?

This thread's become like an MEN readers section

This thread's become like an MEN readers section

I appreciate that it might sound like that and it concerns me. However I sit on both sides of the fence. I am civil engineering fanboy who loves Metrolink as a project, as infrastructure and as a symbol of Manchester's renaissance. I can see what is going on in respect of investment and think GMPTE and the council have done a great job in securing the invetsment.

At the same time I am a customer who has to rely on the service every day. Ultimately the future success and expansion of the network will depend on its patronage by the public. If they continue to povide a poor service, despite all the investment, there will be no support for further improvement. It always seems to be 'jam tomorrow' - i.e. wait until we have the new track/new trams/new machines but the improvement never arrives. And the thing that really grates with me is the pathetic inability to keep people informed in respect of the (frequent) delays. This has simply not improved.

Finally on a purely selfish level I pay a considerable amount of money for an unreliable service. All things considered I'd be quite justified in posting angry comments on the MEN website. Contempt for customer opinion is not healthy.

I do agree that the MEN's reporting leaves a lot to be desired but let's not forget who ran the 'get back on track' campaign.

I appreciate that it might sound like that and it concerns me. However I sit on both sides of the fence. I am civil engineering fanboy who loves Metrolink as a project, as infrastructure and as a symbol of Manchester's renaissance. I can see what is going on in respect of investment and think GMPTE and the council have done a great job in securing the invetsment.

At the same time I am a customer who has to rely on the service every day. Ultimately the future success and expansion of the network will depend on its patronage by the public. If they continue to povide a poor service, despite all the investment, there will be no support for further improvement. It always seems to be 'jam tomorrow' - i.e. wait until we have the new track/new trams/new machines but the improvement never arrives. And the thing that really grates with me is the pathetic inability to keep people informed in respect of the (frequent) delays. This has simply not improved.

Finally on a purely selfish level I pay a considerable amount of money for an unreliable service. All things considered I'd be quite justified in posting angry comments on the MEN website. Contempt for customer opinion is not healthy.

I do agree that the MEN's reporting leaves a lot to be desired but let's not forget who ran the 'get back on track' campaign.


Chorltonred..I totally agree with your sentiments, but while airing your views on here is understandable, why not email your recent experience and thoughts directly to Mr Purdy Chief Exec at Metrolink, communications seems to be an area they fall down on, bring it to his attention then he can do something about, I personally dont bother with Customer relations dept these days, but take my feedback both good and not so good directly to the top. In most cases they take note.

This is why I have raised the question re Metrolink policy on Passenger info for passengers stranded on trams.

Perhaps one of our tram driver forummers could shed some light on this issue, what is Metrolinks policy an keeping passengers informed with information on stranded trams?

As a former Metrolink employee the policy always was that announcements should be made both on the tram by drivers and also on the tramstops by the Control Room. Unfortunately this was all too often forgotten. Lack of monitoring by the operator's client (GMPTE) means they get away with not bothering. In defnce of drivers they often are not told the reason for delays by the Control Room. The ball is firmly in the court of the Controller.

As a former Metrolink employee the policy always was that announcements should be made both on the tram by drivers and also on the tramstops by the Control Room. Unfortunately this was all too often forgotten. Lack of monitoring by the operator's client (GMPTE) means they get away with not bothering. In defnce of drivers they often are not told the reason for delays by the Control Room. The ball is firmly in the court of the Controller.

That is no defence whatsoever.

What is wrong with the driver apologising for the delay and telling the passengers he will keep them updated when he gets information?

The driver gets sod all information from the controll room or shud i say it depends who is on in the control room:bash: some people are to quick to have a go at the driver granted some could be better at keeping you informed but we can only tell you what we are told and that is very little.

The driver gets sod all information from the controll room or shud i say it depends who is on in the control room:bash: some people are to quick to have a go at the driver granted some could be better at keeping you informed but we can only tell you what we are told and that is very little.

So are you saying that there should be no apology for the delay unless the driver knows what is wrong?

i am not back tracking but to be honest metrolinks customer service is a joke it stems from the people who work in the depot and never venture out on to the system so when its tits up they don't even know that it is! the pa system is from the dark ages and i can't belive how crap they are when they do them even i can't understand what they are saying:bash:

And the driver shud be doing some sort of pa's i had to get out of my cab the other day because the internal pa was not working! but some drivers will just sit there and say nothing:bash:its all down to how good you are at doing you job.sice i joined metrolink over six years ago as inspector now driver all i seem to do is say sorry for how shit this system is but until all the old trams have been binned the problems will always be there!they are knackerd and no ne track or tram stop's wiil change that.

So are you saying that there should be no apology for the delay unless the driver knows what is wrong?

Agreed a simple apology would be nice. But I stand by my statement that it is the duty of the Control Room to keep staff out on the system updated with the status of the service. They alone can see where all the trams are and they have a radio system with which to contact drivers.

And the driver shud be doing some sort of pa's i had to get out of my cab the other day because the internal pa was not working! but some drivers will just sit there and say nothing:bash:its all down to how good you are at doing you job.sice i joined metrolink over six years ago as inspector now driver all i seem to do is say sorry for how shit this system is but until all the old trams have been binned the problems will always be there!they are knackerd and no ne track or tram stop's wiil change that.

Since the original trams have some years left to run there would seem to be a need for a lot of reliability improvement work. They are less than 20 years old which in rail terms is less than half life.

Ah so it seems the apology/keeping passengers informed policy tatally lacks structure and application, this MUST be taken up with Philip Purdy as this totally unacceptable and I would say a policy of passenger info/update needs an immediate review and implementation.

... since i have been driving threw the city i have had to do 8 emergency stop's thanks to jo public not looking where they are going ....

Perhaps the trams should be fitted with one of these ???


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/41/87570533_4677acc849.jpg

I guess the problem is pretty widespread in these days of service industry partners who have little or no incentive to look after the customer. Stagecoach get paid on a fixed price basis although there are some small performance penalties. But I guess these are financially less of a burden than the cost of doing the job properly. With the regime the previous operator Serco was monitored by the penalty for keeping a tram in the depot was often less than the penalty for running it late. Altrincham passengers turfed out at Timperley are all too well aware of these daft rules. They get chucked out in the rain to wait for a following tram because there is no incentive to let the tram complete its trip. In fact it benefits them to turn it and get it back on its timetable even though it may return to the city almost empty leaving half a tram load of punters in the rain.

But doing nothing will not get things improved, each time we suffer a delay/canx bombard Philip Purdy with emails/letters he will then becaome aware of the situation and how they staff are dealing/not dealing with these problems. apathy will achieve nothing

Couldn't agree more, why stop at Purdy, make sure David Leather (and his forthcoming successor) and the Service Delivery Director at GMPTE are involved. In fact the Service Delivery Director is probably the best person as their department are responsible for performance monitoring. I think Philip Purdy is responsible for the engineering delivery not the service (not 100% sure though)

no matter what you do it will not stop the old tram's breaking down:ohno:

no matter what you do it will not stop the old tram's breaking down:ohno:

MANC1976..dont think thats the issue, yes things do break down, go wrong, but the issue here is customer service when they do...Metrolink needs a complete review on this issue

The driver gets sod all information from the controll room or shud i say it depends who is on in the control room:bash: some people are to quick to have a go at the driver granted some could be better at keeping you informed but we can only tell you what we are told and that is very little.

To be clear in my case the driver knew exactly what had happened but just hadn't bothered to announce it.

I have written to Metrolink and I made my feelings clear to the drivers in question at the time too.

To be clear in my case the driver knew exactly what had happened but just hadn't bothered to announce it.

I have written to Metrolink and I made my feelings clear to the drivers in question at the time too.


Well done...if we all did that things have to start to improve..did you get a reply yet?

And the driver shud be doing some sort of pa's i had to get out of my cab the other day because the internal pa was not working! but some drivers will just sit there and say nothing:bash:its all down to how good you are at doing you job.sice i joined metrolink over six years ago as inspector now driver all i seem to do is say sorry for how shit this system is but until all the old trams have been binned the problems will always be there!they are knackerd and no ne track or tram stop's wiil change that.

I know that what I am about to say would result in more trams being out of action, but actually a working PA (on the tram and on the station) is an essential part of the emergency systems on a public transport system. There are British Standards relating to minimum requirements for the audibility (how loud) and inteligibility (frequency response, coverage of occupied areas etc). These standards have to be achieved in order to get certificates for fire/emergency safety. It would appear that Metrolink have been able to get away with not complying with various elements of these standards for quite some time!
I with ChorltonRed on this one, I wish Metrolink every success and when it works it is a fine system, however, excuses cannot be allowed to persist indefinitely. Fares levels are high and for the general public to support the expansion of the system it is necessary that Metrolink delivers a good service.

i wish they would get on top of lazey drivers coz it makes the ones who do there job to a high standard look like muppets.And on the subject of drivers the :banana:training starts next week due to:banana: 1 having a fault on it:bash:and the mad thing is the techs are yet to be trained on it :nuts:

I thought training on the new trams started last week.
Oh what a lovely long protracted event this is turning out to be.
As I've said before it will be a miracle if we see any of the new trams in public service before the new year. They can keep shipping them in at the rate of 1 a month but if there is no trained tech support or trained drivers to opperate them it's a bit of an half arsed affair.
Surely the tech support could have been trained at other places that have similar trams or new tech support employed for the increase and be sent away for training then at least not affecting excisting tech support needed for the up keep of the original fleet. Then when those guys come back to Manchester they could have trained those in house and at the same time being able to deal with any problems on the new fleet.
I may be talking out of my behind but that's the way I'd have thought it would have been done. Seems some stuff has been done on an as and when basis.

They should employ me to spend a week at the depot I will soon sort out the lazy tossers who work for Metrolink. I must admit most the Metrolink staff I have spoken to have been very helpful.

There is a major major issue about lack of information coming from the control room. Far too many times I have been stranded without a clue what is going on. In all cases if I knew straight away I would have made alternative arrangements.

I thought training on the new trams started last week.
Oh what a lovely long protracted event this is turning out to be.
As I've said before it will be a miracle if we see any of the new trams in public service before the new year. They can keep shipping them in at the rate of 1 a month but if there is no trained tech support or trained drivers to opperate them it's a bit of an half arsed affair.
Surely the tech support could have been trained at other places that have similar trams or new tech support employed for the increase and be sent away for training then at least not affecting excisting tech support needed for the up keep of the original fleet. Then when those guys come back to Manchester they could have trained those in house and at the same time being able to deal with any problems on the new fleet.
I may be talking out of my behind but that's the way I'd have thought it would have been done. Seems some stuff has been done on an as and when basis.
The issue with the new trams is that as yet they are the responsibility of Bombardier until fully commissioned and accepted by GMPTE and they can't be accepted until tested right across the whole existing network. Training will be going on alongside the testing using Bombardier staff.

They should employ me to spend a week at the depot I will soon sort out the lazy tossers who work for Metrolink. I must admit most the Metrolink staff I have spoken to have been very helpful.

There is a major major issue about lack of information coming from the control room. Far too many times I have been stranded without a clue what is going on. In all cases if I knew straight away I would have made alternative arrangements.

Whilst accepting that the level of customer service is abysmal abuse will get no where. A lot of staff do try but are let down by less willing colleagues just as anywhere. The basic problem as I have said previously is the concept of private companies running public services for profit without effective monitoring by the clients.

In Cologne the controller can speak either to the driver or direct to the passengers through the radio system and the intercom.
And they do, it's not uncommon for the controller to be telling all the passengers on every tram about delays (or diversions because they can do that in Cologne) This leaves the drivers to drive. Very simple system but obviosly too advanced for this country.

I don't know whether this is already known but it's news to me. It seems the problem with the spots has been sorted, 3003 is now "go fastered".

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47118s-pixs/4077969733/sizes/o/

Thanks to 47118.t21

I don't know whether this is already known but it's news to me. It seems the problem with the spots has been sorted, 3003 is now "go fastered".

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47118s-pixs/4077969733/sizes/o/

Thanks to 47118.t21

I spy a double :banana: in the tram wash.

Well, they're probably not coupled!!

Would love a picture of the new trams coupled though.

One good bit of news that relates to both coupling the new trams and rescuing the old ones that have broke down, is that 3000 series can be coupled to 1000 series. The couplers match but there is no electrical connection due to them being wired up differently. The air systems match, so at least the brakes can be released and the line cleared.

So no doubt in the future, the Bananas will be rescuing the old trams from around the network.

Hoorah!

Nice find.

Also found this. Not good quality but it shows the spots.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8000128@N02/4078466076/

well it's going to be the closest we'll get to them new trams either pics on here or fleeting looks if they're out being tested.
Who's going to hold their hands up from either organisation either GMPTE or the name it now goes under or Stagecoach with saying they would be public running in the autumn. It's a publicity sham if you ask me

well it's going to be the closest we'll get to them new trams either pics on here or fleeting looks if they're out being tested.
Who's going to hold their hands up from either organisation either GMPTE or the name it now goes under or Stagecoach with saying they would be public running in the autumn. It's a publicity sham if you ask me

Well if the first one runs publicly in the next 3 weeks no one have to say anything and really we're lucky to be getting anything at all. When they said last year they'd ordered new trams, I was jumping for joy. I don't care if they come online next week or in 2 months. The best thing we can hope for is that they launch 4 or 5 new trams at the same time and then take afew weeks to replace parts on a number of the old trams which have been causing the break downs. Once all 12 new trams are here, they have a real chance to fix many problems before they decide to run more trams in double peak units. Only a fool would make the mistake not to take advantage.

mode1 - last day of autumn is 20th Dec.

Chances are we will be getting them around then.

The bannan tram's have no air on them at all and when they rescue a 100 tram they have to be dragged or vice versa .when they couple up it can only be done mechanicly that meens the 100 air is shut of and they are joind together by the ball and claw.

Speaking of linking them together.

I wonder in the short term future, whilst 10xx and 200x trams are unreliable prior to their mid-life re-fits, we will start to see 3xxx coupled with the older trams?

Would I be right in thinking that a 3xxx tram would be capable of dragging / pushing a dead older tram should the need arise, as such, coupling old and new together will minimise any potential disruption due to tram failure?

Obviously if brakes locking is the primary cause of failure of an old tram that ain't going to make much difference.

Altrincham line down again, although to be fair at least there was some garbled message about getting the bus rather than complete silence. Not posting to gripe but to illustrate to those who don't use the service just how unreliable it is.

great i am on at 5 do you know what the problem is:ohno:

http://www.metrolink.co.uk/servicedisruptions/index.asp?id=253

Guess what! They justed moved one tram, and then another one has failed! On form today!

Well the first delay was due to a broken down tram at Brooklands, but they shifted that. I am now stuck at Old Trafford due to 'unspecified reasons'. To be fair the driver is doing such a good job of apologising and letting us know he doesn't know what's going on that I almost suspect that he reads this forum.

I don't like work anyway.

One good bit of news that relates to both coupling the new trams and rescuing the old ones that have broke down, is that 3000 series can be coupled to 1000 series. The couplers match but there is no electrical connection due to them being wired up differently. The air systems match, so at least the brakes can be released and the line cleared.

So no doubt in the future, the Bananas will be rescuing the old trams from around the network.

Hoorah!

Slight problem there Local Lad, the 3000 series have no air systems, the disc friction brake is hydraulic on the Flexity trams. The 1000/2000 series and 3000 series will couple mechanically as you say but will need drivers presumably in both cabs to operate the brakes. If the demic is totally dead they will need top and tailing (one at each end).
Sorry to those who beat me to it I hadn't read the whole thread!

Well the first delay was due to a broken down tram at Brooklands, but they shifted that. I am now stuck at Old Trafford due to 'unspecified reasons'. To be fair the driver is doing such a good job of apologising and letting us know he doesn't know what's going on that I almost suspect that he reads this forum.

I don't like work anyway.

Broken tram at Cornbrook, moving atm towards stretford. Whay!

Commuters hit by tram chaos - again

November 06, 2009
COMMUTERS suffered morning rush hour chaos after a tram broke down paralysing the line from Altrtincham into Manchester. Hundreds of people were delayed for at least 30 minutes this morning after the vehicle ground to a halt at Brooklands station near Sale, on its way to Manchester.

Passengers were told by transport staff they could either wait for the tram to be fixed, or use the Arriva 263 bus service to Manchester for free.

The latest failure comes just days after problems during the grand reopening of the Metrolink network in the city centre, following a £22m overhaul.

On Tuesday, commuters and Manchester United fans were delayed on their way to Old Trafford after one tram collided with a car and another broke down on the Altrincham line.

Police said no one was injured in the incident.

Crash

That came hours after transport chiefs apologised to customers following four breakdowns and a crash on the Eccles line on Monday.

Angry commuter Mikaela Sitford, 42, was stranded near her home in Sale when the tram broke down at Brooklands.

She said: "It's just not good enough. We couldn't get to work, and I decided to work from home instead. I want to be green and use public transport but it's difficult when the service is not reliable.

"I've bought a monthly tram pass, and I'm locked into using it now."

A GMITA spokesman confirmed that the tram broke down at the station at 8.15am and was fixed by 8.45am.

Transport bosses announced on Monday that passengers will be able to travel for free on November 14 and 19 as a thank-you for their patience during the revamp.

Why does a broken down tram stop you getting from work from Brooklands? There is the 263, well ok that is hell but still possible.

I am tempted to start using the bus to get into town again as I have been lucky only to suffer delays of 15 minutes or so the last ten times I have used the tram but the law of averages mean I will get stuck soon.

I really wish the MEN would print a proper article explaining why it has been so unreliable.

well said joydivision82 think it's about time the MEN sorted it's head out:ohno:

all the breakdowns seem to be on the Altrincham to town stretch of the line that I have seen posted on here. Is there any significance to that? The annoying thing is that a large section of that track used to be 4 tracks wide before it was built on and would have allowed some redundancy in the network, in that trams could change lanes to get around a broken down tram. i can see a single city centre crossing being an absolute disaster to be honest. more trams equals more chances for something to crash into them. i cant believe that they have embarked on such a massive expansion project when there is so little redundancy in the system as it is currently.

Why does a broken down tram stop you getting from work from Brooklands? There is the 263, well ok that is hell but still possible.

I am tempted to start using the bus to get into town again as I have been lucky only to suffer delays of 15 minutes or so the last ten times I have used the tram but the law of averages mean I will get stuck soon.

I really wish the MEN would print a proper article explaining why it has been so unreliable.

I have a mate who gets the tram at Altrincham and she said that the 263 was full this morning with tram passengers getting on there, so you'd have no chance nearer town.

From what I can see the majority of the delays relate to tram failures. It would be interesting to know why they are so unreliable. The Eccles line also seems to have problems. Maybe the Bury line seems better as they can more easily access the depot from there.

I have been delayed 5 times on 8 journies this week, twice severely (1 hour plus).

parts for these trams are like gold dust and alot of the parts are made in house hense why they break down:ohno:

What do you suggest should have been the approach?

There is no way funding would be made available for a second city centre line just to provide redundancy.

Only when capacity is an issue will funding be made available I am afraid, AGMA are moving the plans for 2CC as fast as possible, however, given what happened on 19th July 2004 when Darling cancelled the expansion it is amazing where we are today.

Have a look at Portsmouth and Leeds who got the same news on the same day, and Liverpool who got similar news a little later!

Quite frankly I suspect they would love to be worried about the possibility of several lines being affected by a city centre break down.

Sure, things are not perfect - far from it - we all know why.

However, things are moving in the right direction.

All phase 1 & 2 trams will soon be entering a huge mid-life refurb, this will hopeully solve a lot of the existing issues.

Either way, in reality there is not much that could be being done given until very recently there was practically no money spent on the system.

The state of the rails in the RIAB report a couple of months ago highlights the lack of investment in the past in the infrastructure - hopefully this is all now changing as the money is no longer so constrained.

I have a mate who gets the tram at Altrincham and she said that the 263 was full this morning with tram passengers getting on there, so you'd have no chance nearer town.

From what I can see the majority of the delays relate to tram failures. It would be interesting to know why they are so unreliable. The Eccles line also seems to have problems. Maybe the Bury line seems better as they can more easily access the depot from there.

I have been delayed 5 times on 8 journies this week, twice severely (1 hour plus).

maybe if having a depot near by makes a difference, the building of one at old trafford will help the south manchester part of the network. from the sounds of it from some of the posts on here the trams are unreliable because they dont get proper maintenance and have be running up and down shagged out tracks for 19 years.

parts for these trams are like gold dust and alot of the parts are made in house hense why they break down:ohno:

The electronics date back to late 70's and early 80's technologies I understand :ohno:

The electronics date back to late 70's and early 80's technologies I understand :ohno:

Maybe its time to get rid of them? Not that there is any money left to that. How much would it cost to convert the electrics into a more modern system with new motors?

Could it also be if there is a break down on the Altrincham line it takes a lot longer to clear it due to the distance to the depot?

Yeah I can imagine the 263 is bad in rush hour, I have had to use it during the day a couple of times due to tram break downs, nightmare is all I have in my head.

Have a look at Portsmouth and Leeds who got the same news on the same day, and Liverpool who got similar news a little later!


Spot on with this post Metrolink VI.

Have been off SSC 4 a month and just read all the back posts about collisions and breakdowns it must be hugely frustrating for all who use the service but here's some thoughts from afar:

* Anyone who's ever tried to rely on the London Underground to get around will share with you how unreliable public transport in the UK can be. Even with better PA & info, passengers are informed more often that there is a "good service operating" than when there's a delay or breakdown (Central Line eastbound is notoriously dreadful).

* Just been using public transit in Boston, New York and Washington. Though the infrastructure is there, service is pretty ropey. In NYC there are almost no 'next train' indicators (which with both Express & Local services are absolutely crucial). Boston T service is appallingly irregular (10-15 min headway) - such a waste of what otherwise would be an excellent system. Washington DC stations are so deep you can spend 5-8 minutes getting to the train (which is also unnecessarily irregular - 18 min waits not uncommon)

* Plus as the post above says, at least in Manchester they're trying and the city will soon have more lines of light rail than any other in UK. It remains a disgrace and damning inditement of the Government that Leeds/Liverpool/South Hants and other light rail plans were pulled.

BUT: (and here's my question) is anyone at GMPTE listening to the very well written posts on here? (apart from our lovely drivers that is)? Surely these issues (lack of Control Room info to passengers etc) must be known about and could easily be dealt with?

We guess there MAY be GMPTE people reading these posts because they certainly included a few of the ideas that surfaced on here in the report on 2CC. But perhaps a Press Office rep there should take a formal post-name and join the debates???

Lets hope things improve :-) Mark

:banana: 1 has started its testing in the city centre and from what i have been told no problems has come to light.:) keep you eyes open if you are in the city tonite at silly oclock you mite get to see it.

:banana: 1 has started its testing in the city centre and from what i have been told no problems has come to light.:) keep you eyes open if you are in the city tonite at silly oclock you mite get to see it.

Haha. I predict some very blurry camera photos tomorrow!:cheers:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47118s-pixs/4059346212/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47118s-pixs/4078725384/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47118s-pixs/4068620292/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nicholassmale/4069837398/sizes/l

New ticket machine in operation

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nicholassmale/4071762896/sizes/l/

well waiting with bated breath for the nice story probably already lined up to go to print at the MEN office with the new tram either breaking down or involving an accident with something.

I was in Manchester today, was a couple of months since I was last there so it was nice to see the progression made with the Metrolink. The Piccadilly stop looks really slick, despite me having reservations about the grey/yellow colour scheme. It's suprising the difference small renovations to street furniture and layout can have on a City's feel, the new flooring and signposts make the place seem much more Continental for some strange reason, its good that we're upgrading to their standards of public transport.

http://i36.tinypic.com/29co21e.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/wsplsg.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/6nt8vm.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/6dvblk.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2011ys2.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/xo1j75.jpg

...bravo to the posters who put up these piccies - looks very impressive the refit.

Can't wait to see a :banana: tram in Picc or St Peters.
:)

Wow! What a difference a revamp makes!!

St Peter Sq & Picc Gdns look 110 times better. Think the passengers will also appreciate the extra cover over the next coming months.

Colour scheme looks nice & smart too. Much better than that cold blue :ohno:

All we need now are some of those new trams & 2CC (running down a traffic free, tree lined Deansgate!!) & the city centre will have a much more continental feel :)

thought it was already a done deal with the second city route being Corporation street, Cross street.

It is.

It is.

someone said it was going to be 6 years till it was built though. that will be a complete disaster if its true.

It will be six years.

Not going to be open before 2014 / 2015.

someone said it was going to be 6 years till it was built though. that will be a complete disaster if its true.

why would that be a disaster?

Given it has taken 30 years to get to where we are today, another 6 years is hardly a disaster.

nothing we can do about it I'm afraid.

why would that be a disaster?

because having one crossing is already causing enough problems with breakdowns and collisions with the network at its current capacity. add another however many trams per hour all trying to get up and down mosley street then there is likely to be even more incidents.

It will be six years.

Not going to be open before 2014 / 2015.

Any source for this?

I'm pretty sure I saw a statement just around the time of the announcement of the Cross Street alignment that the 2CC programme would be accelerated.

There is no TWA in place yet for it.

2CC and airport are going to be the last ones done.

The one of the PTE press releases had the details.

The East Dids and Ashton lines are the accelerated ones, airport, 2CC and Oldahm & Rochdale town centres are much longer term.

There is no TWA in place yet for it.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/community/public_transport/s/1137772_tram_chiefs_110m_wish


A second crossing is needed because new lines, which will open between next year and 2013, will send far more trams through the city centre. Consultation will start next month on the second city crossing and a planning application will be lodged next autumn.

So yes, it's not coming soon but 6 years is probably an overestimate.

2CC and airport are going to be the last ones done.

True, but work on 2CC will likely start sooner.


The East Dids and Ashton lines are the accelerated ones, airport, 2CC and Oldahm & Rochdale town centres are much longer term.

I didn't refer to the current "accelerated package", merely that the time-scale for 2CC would be accelerated.

i dont see how they cant accelerate it. as already discussed at great length on here, there is currently zero redundancy in the central part of the network and adding mileage and tram frequency is going to lead to many more accidents. i cant believe that it isnt the number one priority. they should have done 2cc first, then refurbishing the trams and central tracks already in place, then the line of sight signalling. then when all of that worked properly, started work on expanding the network. the network needs to built on rock, not sand.

I'm not sure that that's correct. I was under the impression that there is redundancy in the system. I seem to remember that Mosley street can handle 25 trams per hour. It currently handles only 15. A further 10 tph to bring it up to capacity would allow a 6 miunte frequency on the new Chorlton line.

I do agree though, we should try to get the 2CC ASAP.

I'm not sure that that's correct. I was under the impression that there is redundancy in the system. I seem to remember that Mosley street can handle 25 trams per hour. It currently handles only 15. A further 10 tph to bring it up to capacity would allow a 6 miunte frequency on the new Chorlton line.

I do agree though, we should try to get the 2CC ASAP.

thats more a capacity issue. by redundancy i mean if a tram crashes into a car on mosley street, or the track has to be closed for maintenance, can the trams be routed elsewhere? at the minute the answer is no, which means that the whole network becomes disrupted because 400 yards of track are out of action.

i dont doubt that it is possible to get more trams up mosely street per hour, but that is only increasing the chance of there being an accident and there remains no alternative route to bypass it.

Latest edition of the Metrolink newsletter:

http://www.metrolink.co.uk/pdf/future_metrolink/latest_news_publicatios/The_Link_2_Winter09_170209.pdf

I know it says Winter 2009 but it was published quite early in Summer, theirs even a disclaimer at the end saying GMPTA will become GMITA from Feb 2009, future tense :P

With regards the 6 years for 2CC I am sure I read an AGMA report that contradicts the MEN article.

Although looking back last night I could not find it so I may be wrong.

From memory the TWA was due to take from Q2 2010 until 2012.
Other local legalities to take place from 2012 until 2013 - including possible CPOs
Construction to commence late 2013 and take up to 18months to complete

Looking at the AGMA docs, 2CC is the only project without the TWA - that is going to be massively expensive and lengthy.

With regards the 6 years for 2CC I am sure I read an AGMA report that contradicts the MEN article.

Although looking back last night I could not find it so I may be wrong.

From memory the TWA was due to take from Q2 2010 until 2012.
Other local legalities to take place from 2012 until 2013 - including possible CPOs
Construction to commence late 2013 and take up to 18months to complete

Looking at the AGMA docs, 2CC is the only project without the TWA - that is going to be massively expensive and lengthy.

is there an unavoidable reason why they have had to build 2CC last of all or is just a case of bad planning?

The last element to be planned and approved.

The last element to be planned and approved.

why leave it till last though?

I dont know you will have to ask them, its possible they didnt realise a 2nd city centre crossing was required until 3B funding was approved and its final shape emerged, their had been recognition a 2cc was desirable for a while before but I think it had until recently been treated perhaps mistakenly as an optional cost saving that could be made.

I dont know you will have to ask them, its possible they didnt realise a 2nd city centre crossing was required until 3B funding was approved and its final shape emerged, their had been recognition a 2cc was desirable for a while before but I think it had until recently been treated perhaps mistakenly as an optional cost saving that could be made.

i reckon they have probably known all along that they needed one but have gone on the best case scenario option that they could just about get away without having one. then when the time to start building approached they have thought that they really, really do need one after all. the end result is a building schedule that has put the cart in front of the horse.

Thats what I just said...

Haha. I predict some very blurry camera photos tomorrow!:cheers:

Well, not quite as soon as you expected, but blurry non the less:

http://www.ashfish.net/metrolink/newtram1.jpg
http://www.ashfish.net/metrolink/newtram2.jpg
http://www.ashfish.net/metrolink/newtram3.jpg
http://www.ashfish.net/metrolink/newtram4.jpg

YOu will have to excuse the naffness, I was a little pissed and I don't think my phone camera was on quite the right setting...

But yes blurry, seemed to glide through Market Street, & Mosley Street with ease though.

Thats what I just said...

on reflection, yes it was. its getting late.

I wonder if its worth taking the trip into town tomorrow to have a look at some of these :banana:'s? Probably not I have other work to do :( It just feels like I am missing out.

My life has become so dull that tram spotting is about as exciting as it gets. I will be buying a clipboard next so I can record them all. I am sure it will only take a few hours till I get them all :cheers:

I wonder if its worth taking the trip into town tomorrow to have a look at some of these :banana:'s? Probably not I have other work to do :( It just feels like I am missing out.

My life has become so dull that tram spotting is about as exciting as it gets. I will be buying a clipboard next so I can record them all. I am sure it will only take a few hours till I get them all :cheers:


Well if you fancy it, and tomorrow's the same as it was tonight, :banana:1 passed through Market Street around 12.30. The whole Place was swarming with men in hi viz orange outfits. :cheers:

I dont know you will have to ask them, its possible they didnt realise a 2nd city centre crossing was required until 3B funding was approved and its final shape emerged, their had been recognition a 2cc was desirable for a while before but I think it had until recently been treated perhaps mistakenly as an optional cost saving that could be made.

Perhaps they think that if they build the other extensions then there's no way that anything/anyone could get in the way of the 2CC being built (e.g. a change of government) - although I realise that this is entirely funded by the region itself, that agreement has only been in place for the last 6 months, before that there was much more uncertainty, which would call for such "underhand" tactics (underhand being in inverted commas since such methods are actually the only way to get things done in this country).

Hmm. Interesting. Just been looking on the MEN site on the piece about the 2 breakdowns in 7 day that was in the paper last week. Now I made a constructive comment about the bemoaning of people on there about the system and the fact that MEN seems to always jump at a negative story about the Metrolink and gathering the people together who moan about the system in those reports but never getting much possative stuff. Also that fact that they were championing the get Metrolink back on track a couple of years ago. Guess what my comments didn't get put on.

Don't think they ever envisaged having the funds to be able to build 2CC.

If they were to lose £60m from the pot of cash, it would be that line that was lost, not another one.

Make no mistake, gaining a TWA is incredibly expensive - see Merseytram - they would not want to risk a huge sum of money when in all likelyhood the money was never going to be made available to build the line.

wow... those pics of the new ones....the go faster dots really do make it go faster, see how fast its going by the blurring..... it must be :banana:1 as it has that daft looking advertising board hanging onto the front at what looks to be a very strang angle. wonder if it went all the way to altrincham or eccles?
2002 now has a new desty blind

i reckon they have probably known all along that they needed one but have gone on the best case scenario option that they could just about get away without having one. then when the time to start building approached they have thought that they really, really do need one after all. the end result is a building schedule that has put the cart in front of the horse.

I think that they arent going to genarate any extra revenue via 2cc,whereas they will from the other lines!!.I find it hard to see where the additional funding will come from for which is seemingly an essential but non profit making project.They were probabaly thinking lets get the system up & running first & have a successful system paying for itself first then tackle the 2cc problem.After all its easier to deal with a few hundred people stuck in the cold & rain when the 1cc line fails than it is to get any more money from the powers that be in central government!!:ohno:

Money is coming from the GM Transport fund.

See AGMA web site.

But you get my point Metro,regardless of where the money comes from its easier to build a money making line!

It is, although I do not think that is the reason 2CC is without a TWA were as all the other lines have passed that obstacle.

If you look back at the original plans there was only 1 CC route, it is only since money has become available, through the GM Tranasport Fund that the PTE have had the confidence to spend large sums of money on such a TWA.

Even on 18th June 2004 - the day before Darling binned Phase3 there were no plans for 2CC, it is only relatively recently it has looked like it was actually going to happen.

Its true the couple of stations wont recoup much of the cost. But how often do things in life you need actually pay back their full cost? For example no bridge has ever made a profit in this country.

Its true the couple of stations wont recoup much of the cost. But how often do things in life you need actually pay back their full cost? For example no bridge has ever made a profit in this country.

agreed. that was the classic mistake BR arguably made in the 60s. this line isnt making as much money as that one so lets close it. that thinking overlooks the fact that everything has to form a part of the larger picture. 2cc might not actually make any money but it will make for a more robust system, which will mean fewer breakdowns, less bad press from the M.E.N and most likely more people having the confidence to trust the system to get them to work on time and so higher ridership.

maybe its not a case of bad planning after all. i guess until very recently there hasnt been the confidence locally that large sums of money are going to be forthcoming from the government for public infrastructure projects outside of london like metrolink said.

now that has changed somewhat it is vital that money is invested to make the system reliable and versatile otherwise adding more usage to a system that cant cope properly with what it already has is going to be a receipe for disaster.

Another good article. Can't say I don't agree and I'm not liking the new bright yellow colour/design.

Shelter shocker fence farce

The Twentieth Century Society despair of the new St Peter’s Square Metrolink Station

http://www.propertyconfidential.com/index.asp?Sessionx=IpqiNwc6IWTnJ0qiNwF6IHqi

Another good article. Can't say I don't agree and I'm not liking the new bright yellow colour/design.

Shelter shocker fence farce

The Twentieth Century Society despair of the new St Peter’s Square Metrolink Station

http://www.propertyconfidential.com/index.asp?Sessionx=IpqiNwc6IWTnJ0qiNwF6IHqi

sounds like the author wants manchester to look something like 19th century vienna. you have to move with the times. i personally like the yellow colour scheme but im less concerned with what colour the trams are and whether people find the stops aesthetically pleasing and more with whether its possible to get around manchester efficiently without owning a car.

plus your always going to have someone moaning about something or other. the main thing is to have a system that works and then the moaning will be kept to a minimum.

Another good article. Can't say I don't agree and I'm not liking the new bright yellow colour/design.

I like the the yellow, it's the "silver" that troubles me.

That being said I'm sure things will look better once the whole refurbishment is completed and everything is in the new livery. It's looks a bit of a mish mash at the mo but that shouldn't be a surprise.

I agree with the Author, the guy sounds likes he's just being a Victor Meldrew. The only real problem is the fence. I actually quite like the curve around the memorial, it should just have been done with much better quality fences.

Saying that, how much of St. Peters Square is going to be changed under the redevelopment contract? I wonder just how long it will be like this anyway........

Why is that writer so wound-up about an unobtrusive little tram stop? Did he not notice the big filthy, festering carbuncle that is Elisabeth House? :|

Why is that writer so wound-up about an unobtrusive little tram stop? Did he not notice the big filthy, festering carbuncle that is Elisabeth House? :|

He knows it's going, hence not being bothered about it.

sounds like the author wants manchester to look something like 19th century vienna. you have to move with the times. i personally like the yellow colour scheme but im less concerned with what colour the trams are and whether people find the stops aesthetically pleasing and more with whether its possible to get around manchester efficiently without owning a car.

plus your always going to have someone moaning about something or other. the main thing is to have a system that works and then the moaning will be kept to a minimum.

Agreed. But I would have prefered another colour scheme TBH.

I like the the yellow, it's the "silver" that troubles me.

That being said I'm sure things will look better once the whole refurbishment is completed and everything is in the new livery. It's looks a bit of a mish mash at the mo but that shouldn't be a surprise.

I agree with the Author, the guy sounds likes he's just being a Victor Meldrew. The only real problem is the fence. I actually quite like the curve around the memorial, it should just have been done with much better quality fences.

Saying that, how much of St. Peters Square is going to be changed under the redevelopment contract? I wonder just how long it will be like this anyway........

See, I like the silver, it's the yellow I hate. A silver and pale/medium blue would have been nice.

New tram gets lost....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmysheeran/4061918403/

Yeh, I'm in agreement with jerb on this. Whoever thought yellow and grey would go well together was smoking something strong at the time. Don't get me wrong, it's better than what was there before, but I think the colour scheme (and the shelters at stations) could have been thought out better.

A silver and pale/medium blue would have been nice.

http://images.nycsubway.org/i96000/img_96794.jpg

see. horses for courses. i think the yellow makes it all look a bit more continental. the old green, grey and white was/is a victim of the trend that went through the early 90s that went something like "hmmm that whole 80s thing was a bit silly and over the top wasnt it? lets try and go toned down and sophisticated". on the flip side though im sure orange and brown looked positively futuristic when the big wigs at GM buses decided to revamp the local fleet in the 1970s. looks a bit minging and dated now though and im sure the same will happen with yellow and silver.

Yellow ? whats wrong with it ?

if you could choose , which colour would you have gone for ?

http://images.nycsubway.org/i96000/img_96794.jpg

I was thinking silver on blue. Pale blue.

The Montpellier blue isn't bad, but it's too dark. Pale soft blue with silver markings/insignia.


http://cache.virtualtourist.com/1020530-Montpellier_Blue_tram-Montpellier.jpg

Think this tram is form Nice? I would settle for that. Gorgous!


http://oursurprisingworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/trams-from-different-countries-of-the-world-01.jpg

Compare.

http://www.askbury.co.uk/uploads/f8/news/img/2009713_121631.jpg

Don't get me wrong, the new trams are a vast improvement on our old ones. I do like the silver/stainless steel looking sections. We don't seem to do sleek and pointy in this country.

Happy to report some good news. There was a double tram running Bury-Altrincham during this evening's rush hour. The first one I've seen since the city centre reopened. Space!

Oh jerb since you've got sand in your eyes you have become a Citeh fanatic ,, just dont expect the rest of Manchester to do the same :)

Pale blue , if that had been chosen i can just hear the moaner's now , "its not that much different to what it used to be "

I think the yellow is good its bright and fresh , if i was to change anything i would have more yellow covering the trams .

Yellow ? whats wrong with it ?

if you could choose , which colour would you have gone for ?

i am also going to stick up for the yellow. its a colour that works well in our damp and grey climate.
the original turquoise colour looks rancid and old fashioned these days, the large areas of white on the original trams make them look like they need a clean most of the time. If yellow was not chosen, i would have been satisfied with any other colour on the warm end of the spectrum.

Looking at that St Peters Square article, look at what they have done with the railings alongside the planter feature thingy, there is no need for it there!

Oh jerb since you've got sand in your eyes you have become a Citeh fanatic ,, just dont expect the rest of Manchester to do the same :)

Pale blue , if that had been chosen i can just hear the moaner's now , "its not that much different to what it used to be "

I think the yellow is good its bright and fresh , if i was to change anything i would have more yellow covering the trams .

Then again, a bright vivid red with black and white stripes would be a better idea. Not only would we have the worlds most famous tram network, it would be the best supported and busiest one as well.

Sometimes I give up. Just when you think you can rely on specific people, you suddenly feel the urge to jump under the nearest tram with the new yellow and silver livery. :nuts:

Oh come on jerb only joking ,, i know you still have that sense of humour .

Anyway now the trams are getting back to normal in the city cen , do we know when the gas and water works will be finished , all these bloody holes around the city are starting to get on my nerves .

The toothpaste colour looks particulary bad on the trams when they pull into the yellow spanking brand new stations. I agree with the above and think they will look good at any time of year, espesh in the rain.

On another note, I was wondering what will happen underneath Piccadilly Station when they extend services. I take it there will be no turnaround point, so services going to Piccadilly Station will be signed for Droylsden. Or am I mistaken and some trams will just continue as they currently do and turn around? I imagine when this is complete and you can travel straight through, it will feel like a proper small underground section of track and station, even though for obvious reasons, its not.

Perhaps they purposely avoided blue and red to avoid any suggestions of footy partiality...?!

the pics that someone put on from the weekend of the new tram doing tests through city centre although blurred I think showed it off quite well regarding the look against the city centre buildings. The new ones will stand out quite well and more noticeable but in a good way.

Yellow grabs peoples' attention, that's why heavy rail vehicle ends are painted yellow!

Silver represents means modernity, class/style, hence why silver cars became popular a few years ago.

I'd have prefered 80s retro Mancunian white and Sunglow orange. I wasn't keen on any of it (the new image) at first, but have warmed gradually to it. Heaven forbid they'd gone for the other two options, which was a revised white/turquoise with amended logo, or a 'Stagecoach Supertram' -style!

The toothpaste colour looks particulary bad on the trams when they pull into the yellow spanking brand new stations. I agree with the above and think they will look good at any time of year, espesh in the rain.

On another note, I was wondering what will happen underneath Piccadilly Station when they extend services. I take it there will be no turnaround point, so services going to Piccadilly Station will be signed for Droylsden. Or am I mistaken and some trams will just continue as they currently do and turn around? I imagine when this is complete and you can travel straight through, it will feel like a proper small underground section of track and station, even though for obvious reasons, its not.

Think there's going to be a turn around siding between the tracks like east of Cornbrook. So trams will still terminate at Piccadilly (Mediacity/Altrincham-Picc-Bury will be turning around there)

I have been using Metrolink a few times over the past week or so (and before that during the city centre closure) and it would appear that things are slowly getting more reliable. What do the Met drivers think? And regular commuters?
It is also great to see pics of the new:banana: trams running in the city centre. There does seem to be a positive momemtum about the developments at the moment! Hopefully Stagecoach can get on top of the maintenance issues with the 1000 and 2000 series trams. We will then see any negative publicity start to subside....

Just been to look at the St Peter's Square stop. And I thought Picc Gardens was bad...............

Absolute disgrace in many many ways. Completely agree about the fencing. The memorial has been ring fenced and dealt with badly and the ramps create dead space at one end of the southern platform. You should never create dead space in an area like this.

Designers want sacking, if not shooting.

The driver training is going very slow:ohno :banana: 1 is having alot of problems with its doors and ats system and from what i am hearing we can only do 5mph when we go threw collhurst tunnel any faster and the pan will touch the tunnel roof /sides:bash:

Presumably there are plans to do some remediation work on the tunnel then? Any idea of the timing?

Any word on how the signals are coming along?

Last I heard they were all being done manually in the city centre following the works, has that been resolved yet?

Its true the couple of stations wont recoup much of the cost. But how often do things in life you need actually pay back their full cost? For example no bridge has ever made a profit in this country.

Queen Elizabeth II. Toll reduced once construction costs were recouped.

The driver training is going very slow:ohno :banana: 1 is having alot of problems with its doors and ats system and from what i am hearing we can only do 5mph when we go threw collhurst tunnel any faster and the pan will touch the tunnel roof /sides:bash:

the list of problems with these trams seems to be ever growing???

M5000 today...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47118s-pixs/4095449687/

Its funny, the old trams would have blended into that photo and looked like they belonged whereas the new tram looks like its got lost in the wrong part of town if you know what I mean.

the list of problems with these trams seems to be ever growing???

Me tinks you are seriously over egging the 'problems'!

As has been said a million times before, there is a contingency in the budget as issues always arise in such huge projects!

I was thinking silver on blue. Pale blue.

The Montpellier blue isn't bad, but it's too dark. Pale soft blue with silver markings/insignia.


http://cache.virtualtourist.com/1020530-Montpellier_Blue_tram-Montpellier.jpg

Think this tram is form Nice? I would settle for that. Gorgous!


http://oursurprisingworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/trams-from-different-countries-of-the-world-01.jpg

Compare.

http://www.askbury.co.uk/uploads/f8/news/img/2009713_121631.jpg

Don't get me wrong, the new trams are a vast improvement on our old ones. I do like the silver/stainless steel looking sections. We don't seem to do sleek and pointy in this country.

The second tram down is in Dublin. It is an absolutely awful livery and they are near imposible to see. So much so that they have now had 2 yellow stripes added to them.

M5000 today...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47118s-pixs/4095449687/

That picture shows exactly what I have being saying about the useless cab door for the driver. Why was it not put on the other side? They have just gone out and bought Cologne trams without thinking about how things would work in this country I think?

Presumably there are plans to do some remediation work on the tunnel then? Any idea of the timing?

Any word on how the signals are coming along?

Last I heard they were all being done manually in the city centre following the works, has that been resolved yet?

No they haven't sorted out the signals in town yet. The ones in Piccadilly Bus station at Primark were out all day and everything worked like a dream! Contrast that with the lights that were out at Piccadilly station entrance/ exit last night from about 730pm onwards that caused traffic to be backed up all the way up London Road, down the full length of Portland Street and over into Chepstow Street and along the outside lane on Oxford Street. All those bus passengers being held up again due to the job not being completed properly. Doesn't make any difference to the cars. They souldn't be in the city centre in my opinion...lol

Page 8 of http://www.gmita.gov.uk/download/2848/item_05_greater_manchester_transport_fund-delivery_programme_update has the timeline for Metrolink expansion, including 2CC (thanks Watchzero) - 2016 is the opening date.

Interesting, all construction, other than 2CC will have commenced before the election if they stick to that project plan!

http://www.gmita.gov.uk/download/2848/item_05_greater_manchester_transport_fund-delivery_programme_update

Is incredibly interesting.

Gives a clear breakdown of what money is going on which scheme, when, what the risks are etc.

Looking at the timescales on that we are going to see a shit load of construction all over the place this time next year!

Will make the current works look tiny.

They are still mentioning other schemes, like Metrolink to the Traffic Centre, and right at the end they ask the question about if additional funding mechanisms can be found!

I get the impression from reading that doc that Phase3b will not be the end of Metrolink expansion!

The timetable...

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1308/gmtf1.jpg
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/6176/gmtf2.jpg

acording to that cart the 2nd cc crossing will take 4 years to build? that cant be right?

Can easily see 4 years for 2CC.

Huge amount of utility diversions.

Huge amounts of incredibly complex works.

I seriously doubt such a report would have errors in that are being suggested.

Having said that, there is probably a fair bit of contingency in that 4 years.

acording to that cart the 2nd cc crossing will take 4 years to build? that cant be right?

Remodelling the junctions/ramp at G-Mex is going to be a massive project. Presumably they don't want to have to close the line for months while they do it, so it might be a very slow process.

Metro - That is really interesting. I've never been quite sure why the ITA/PTE have started to pursue public funds the TC extension though? I can believe that Peel are unwilling to cough up, but it don't see why it's much of a priority for the region to build a line to serve a low density industrial estate and a shopping centre when so many residential areas remain with substandard transport?

I was looking for something else last night and found a copy of the old Greater Manchester Strategic rail study. It was really intesting to see what was proposed, especially post Phase 3 but I wondered how relevent it is now. I don't suppose you know how much that piece of work (it's nearly 10 years old now) would be used to inform long term planning at the PTE?

I seem to remember there was some Health and Safety Exec ruling that suggested all new tram (and mainline trains even maybe?) have to have yellow fronts so that they can be more clearly seen in the streetscape.

No idea where to check this out but I wonder if that was the reason they started with yellow here then extended the colour scheme to the stations?

Just a wild thought! :nuts:

(PS I quite like them but wonder how they'll add the new livery to the older trams)

(PS I quite like them but wonder how they'll add the new livery to the older trams)

paint on a some base coats then some top coats?

Notice that SEMMMS still has another 3 years development (on top of how many? 20? 30?) during which Cameron or one of his cronies can cancel it.

Is really good about all these things planned - I'll have to see it to believe it, but if in a months time there are people in fluorescent jackets surveying the trackbed behind Tesco's in Parrs wood, it will be a very good thing!

yeah SEMMS! Very local to me that and the orginal Tesco/M&S funded section must be 20 years old.

Metrolink plans look awesome...work starting before end of year on actual line construction...a HUGE selling point for GM for relocating business'....the lead time for these office relocations is large so the fruits of this will be seen c2012+...

outcome?

Dunno but look at M60 effect on Ashton/Oldham industrial units....Didsbury will be rammed with media types...oops sorry scrub that...already happened

My main criticism of the extensions is that the airport route is too long and circuitous to be a useful link for passengers. Also, is it right that Wythenshawe should have a more comprehensive tram network than Manchester city centre?

I think the "2cc" idea is good, but IMHO there should be a 3cc and 4cc, in fact the tram network should be more comprehensive in and a round the city centre.

Lucky - you are missing the point of airport line.

It is NOT to serve people travelling from the city centre to the airport, rather around south Manchester, and shorter journeys from areas not currently served by rail - such as Wythenshawe.

Would you prefer to give Wythenshawe a shit service just to ensure that it has got a worse line than the city centre?

That's right Metro. If someone wanted to get from the city centre to the airport in a quick time, then you'd get the train from Picc, not the tram.

I'm excited to see the construction timetable finally available! I hope a Trafford Centre extension does get going one day soon, as the traffic around there can be an absolute nightmare. Hopefully they can extend it to the Chill FactorE (as the traffic can be horrendous around there too) and then onto City of Salford Stadium / City Airport perhaps?

One question though (perhaps Metro, you know about this?) but the construction timetable mentions quite a lot of things that I thought weren't going ahead. Is it intended that the Altrincham Interchange redevelopment will go ahead, as the document seems to suggest it will be completed by 2013? I thought that idea had got cancelled? :dunno:

Wow, seems Metrolink's earlier thoughts about 2CC were optimistic! :(

I'm quite surprised completion is planned for the same time as the Airport line given that the latter is reliant on the former working smoothly.

One question though (perhaps Metro, you know about this?) but the construction timetable mentions quite a lot of things that I thought weren't going ahead. Is it intended that the Altrincham Interchange redevelopment will go ahead, as the document seems to suggest it will be completed by 2013? I thought that idea had got cancelled? :dunno:

I've seen it referred to in Transport Fund reports a number of times so I think so.

They seem to be scheduling a two year planning and approval process for 2cc on top of the early work theyve already done, which is surprisingly long for its length.

That picture shows exactly what I have being saying about the useless cab door for the driver. Why was it not put on the other side? They have just gone out and bought Cologne trams without thinking about how things would work in this country I think?

Whilst agreeing that the door appears to be on the wrong side, I think you will find that the Croydon CR4000 Flexity is the same. It's not like buying a car where the manufacturer builds left and righthand drive versions. To change the design to fit a left hand door would be a major redesign of the car body structure and cab including desk and wiring etc for which the builder would demand a large increase in cost.

My main criticism of the extensions is that the airport route is too long and circuitous to be a useful link for passengers. Also, is it right that Wythenshawe should have a more comprehensive tram network than Manchester city centre?

I think the "2cc" idea is good, but IMHO there should be a 3cc and 4cc, in fact the tram network should be more comprehensive in and a round the city centre.

The main purpose of the Airport Line is to provide transport for the folks working there. The permission for the second runway had some conditions relating to the percentage of journies to and from by public transport. The easiest way to meet them is by providing transport facilities for staff and apparently quite a lot live in South Manchester.

Lucky - you are missing the point of airport line.

It is NOT to serve people travelling from the city centre to the airport, rather around south Manchester, and shorter journeys from areas not currently served by rail - such as Wythenshawe.

Would you prefer to give Wythenshawe a shit service just to ensure that it has got a worse line than the city centre?

OK thanks for the answer. I managed to find the thread. Confusing to have two similarly named threads in different sections!

No, I would not like Wythenshawe to have a shit service just to make Manchester look better, but I would like Wythenshawe to have a good service and Manchester to have a very much better one. Eight stops in the city is a bit pathetic really. In any case, it should run underground in the city centre, like in Rouen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramway_de_Rouen

http://www.trams-in-france.net/duor/rou01.jpg

...here's what you could have had...

In any case, it should run underground in the city centre, like in Rouen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramway_de_Rouen

Metro won't like that. :lol:

A further question. Is the 2cc going to have any stops on it or is it literally just a detour?

And, how likely is this...?

http://manchesterbus.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/23/2434573231_ec1c32117e_b.jpg

2CC will have stops, they and their names aren't known yet.

The map is a fantasy map created by a forumer. Phases 4, 5 and 6 do not exist. Although a line to the Trafford Centre and an extension to Stockport from the East Didsbury are real possibilities in future years (10-20) if funding becomes available.

2cc will have between 2 and 3 stops, their locations arent decided they will select sites which cause the minimum disruption.

I know it's a fantasy map but he's done a bloody good job of it. Do you know him?

A further question. Is the 2cc going to have any stops on it or is it literally just a detour?

And, how likely is this...?

http://manchesterbus.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/23/2434573231_ec1c32117e_b.jpg

It will probably have stops around Albert Square and on Cross Street (near the junction with Market Street) but that's still not confirmed.

That isn't likely at all. Firstly because it would cost a fortune, and secondly because MarkO designed it, and while he may have many skills I think he won't mind me saying that there wasn't a lot of transport modelling behind it.

What has been discussed before by official reports in some form is:

Formal proposals
Tram to the Trafford Centre
Tram to Stockport

Other suggestions but with no formal process begun
Tram to East Didsbury via Kingsway
Tram train to Wigan
Tram train/Tram to Marple
Tram train to Glossop
Tram train to Marple via Hyde
3rd City Crossing to allow these developments
Tram from Stockport to Marple
Tram from Stockport to Manchester Airport
Tram train to Bolton
Tram train to Rochdale via New Moston
Tram train Altrincham to Stockport
Tram Eccles to Little Hulton via Worsley
Tram route linking Eccles and propose Trafford Centre routes via Barton
Tram/tram train conversion for the East Lancs Railway

I know it's a fantasy map but he's done a bloody good job of it. Do you know him?

MarkO I think.

I know it's a fantasy map but he's done a bloody good job of it. Do you know him?

Yes, Andy's right; it was MarkO.

Brilliant isn't it! Think he should get a job working for them :)

Fantastic. Would love to know what software he used.

Illustrator is my guess

Eight stops in the city is a bit pathetic really.

The city centre is pretty well served by Metrolink, it doesn't need vast amounts of stations. The only section of the city that isn't really well served is the Oxford Road corridor - but that isn't something that another city crossing would fix, it would be a whole new line.

Up to speed on Metrolink
Date published: 12/11/2009

A SERIES of public meetings will give people the chance to find out more about Metrolink coming to Oldham.

Oldham’s rail loop line is now closed with work well under way to replace it with tram lines — expected to open in autumn 2011.

Residents will have 12 chances to discuss the £600 million Metrolink expansion with Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive (GMPTE) staff, starting next week.

Philip Purdy, GMPTE’s Metrolink director, said: “People are going to start seeing a lot of activity over the coming months as we start to make real headway on the construction of the new line.

“We’re going to be building a brand new viaduct over the Rochdale railway line, refurbishing around 100 bridges and other structures, rebuilding existing stations and creating brand new ones, so there are several big projects involved.

“That’s why I think it’s important for people to come along to these drop-in events and speak to the team, so they can find out first-hand about the kind of work we’re doing, the schedule we’re working to and the way we are approaching it all.”

The events, each taking place between 5 and 7pm, are at:

Newbold Baptist Church, Rochdale, Wednesday, November 18.

Crompton Library, Shaw, on Thursday, November 19.

Turf Lane Lifelong Learning Centre, Chadderton, Monday, November 23.

Newhey Lodge, Huddersfield Road, Rochdale, Tuesday, November 24.

Bardsley Dance Centre, Alford Street, Oldham, Wednesday, November 25.

Oldham Library, Union Street, Thursday, November 26.

Shaw Road Conservative Club, Oldham, Monday, November 30.

Millennium Centre, Featherstall Road, Oldham, Tuesday, December 1.

Rochdale Training Association, Fishwick Street, Rochdale, Wednesday, December 2.

Mather Street Primary School, Failsworth, Thursday, December 3.

Milnrow Cricket Club, Monday, December 7.

Broadhurst Primary School, Moston, Tuesday, December 8.

Members of the public will be able to view plans and speak to officials from GMPTE on a one-to-one basis about the project.



from:

http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/32383/up-to-speed-on-metrolink

The city centre is pretty well served by Metrolink, it doesn't need vast amounts of stations. The only section of the city that isn't really well served is the Oxford Road corridor - but that isn't something that another city crossing would fix, it would be a whole new line.

A metrolink line serving the universities and the oxford road corridor would cut down on a lot of bus traffic and pollution. would be tricky to find the room for it though.

The rule of thumb on the underground is that each line removes the need for 6 lanes of carriageway.

Not sure it's been posted yet.

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I don't know what the owners thought could be done otherwise though, the work being done there is unavoidable.

Good butty shop, mind

Not sure it's been posted yet.

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my old practice rooms are just around the corner from the crusty cob. that, the chinese chippy and the off licence next to it are the only things to sustain stoned and pissed musicians in the miles platting area.

my old practice rooms are just around the corner from the crusty cob. that, the chinese chippy and the off licence next to it are the only things to sustain stoned and pissed musicians in the miles platting area.

Brunswick Mill?

The rule of thumb on the underground is that each line removes the need for 6 lanes of carriageway.

Really? i.e. an entire motorway? Gosh, imagine London without the tube... :nuts:

This thread's become like an MEN readers section

The think is the MEN does reprosent public opinion, at least those who travel a peak periods. Most people like metrolink, but it is run so poorly.

Can easily see 4 years for 2CC.

Huge amount of utility diversions.

Huge amounts of incredibly complex works.

I seriously doubt such a report would have errors in that are being suggested.

Having said that, there is probably a fair bit of contingency in that 4 years.

It's only in consultation atm. They don't even know which route to take (unless there has been an update) One of the route options is pretty long, which probably explains the 4 years. some of the build time will be moving of all current pipes, etc around.

Possible routes: http://www.gmita.gov.uk/download/2777/item_9a_metrolink_second_city_crossing (there is a map in here)

Tram train to Bolton


That'll never happen, the line is too packed as it is, there is not even enough time/capacity for a decent number of trains to stop at local stops between BOlton and Manchester.

That'll never happen, the line is too packed as it is, there is not even enough time/capacity for a decent number of trains to stop at local stops between BOlton and Manchester.

No I don't think it makes sense either, but I've definitely read an official document that said it was under consideration at one point.

Oh and Gomac. I think they've decided on the Cross Street route for 2CC as being the one they take forward. I think there was an AGMA minute (or something simiar from the ITA) about it.

Your behind Gomac, they settled the route a couple of months ago. With regard Tram trains Bolton the bottlenecks are in Salford and Victoria, if it can avoid those it could be done.

Just thought of something that hopefully someone can clarify. Is the full TIF order for extra trams still going ahead under the GM Transport Fund plan or is the intention to cut it down?

As I understood it the reason that so many were being ordered is that the extra demand caused by the congestion charge could be catered to by running double length trams on all routes. If without the charge this excess demand will presumably not materialise then presumably we won't need so many vehicles. So really my question is this: Come 2016 how many lines will be operating double length trams?

Im not 100% but I belive the intention was most of service on the Altrincham line and the Bury line at peak to be run with doubles.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa318/metman123/14112009447.jpg

Pleased to confirm BANANA 6 has Landed :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

That'll never happen, the line is too packed as it is, there is not even enough time/capacity for a decent number of trains to stop at local stops between BOlton and Manchester.

I thought the idea/plan of tram-train to Bolton would be to diverge off the Atherton/Walkden route (which may form part of a cross-city tram-train to Marple/Rose Hill), using the former railway alignment via Royal Bolton Hospital to Bolton Town Centre, rather than the (existing) heavy rail route?

Of course, with electrification, restoration of some 4-tracking or loops, you could have enough capacity to fit both local and regional express services. Within the next few years, plans will see the Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh services diverted via Chat Moss/Wigan, and Manchester - Southport via Atherton, which will free up 2 (albeit fast) paths per hour, perhaps a incentive to introduce a local stopper service, seeing as the A666 BRT scheme didn't go ahead under TIF?

(Apologies for the off-topic nature of the post).

Christ, Bananna 6! Thats six months of trams. What am I doing with my life.

3 months, arent they each fortnight?

A further question. Is the 2cc going to have any stops on it or is it literally just a detour?

And, how likely is this...?

http://manchesterbus.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/23/2434573231_ec1c32117e_b.jpg

The 2cc will have stops. They are not indicated on the "future" maps because they don't know the route yet. See a poost of mine a few above this.

How about this for future metrolink, beyond the current extensions.
http://www.scribblemaps.com/#id=hNdu42a_oN

red = Ground/road level running
green = elevated
light purple = tunnel
yellow = current or soon to be

The map features the trafford line extended through Eccles and onto what would be a large park and ride facility for the M60/M61/M62 and East Lancs. This would allow travel to trafford park and trafford centre (and salford quays, by changing at Eccles) for park and ride customers. Customers travelling from Leigh and Bolton would also be able to swap services here to get to the trafford centre. The service along the East Lancs would be elevated so trams would not get caught up in rush hour traffic on the East Lancs. It would also provide faster and more reliable services into Manchester where possible. I have drawn 2cc as cheapest and currently bosses most desired option

I thought the idea/plan of tram-train to Bolton would be to diverge off the Atherton/Walkden route (which may form part of a cross-city tram-train to Marple/Rose Hill), using the former railway alignment via Royal Bolton Hospital to Bolton Town Centre, rather than the (existing) heavy rail route?



That'd make more sense. Though I'm supprised they've never considered taking the tram from Radcliffe along the old railway line to Bolton, most of it still hasn't been built on.