Ah, totally off topic flashback to the New Conti in the early eighties.
Wear your wellies :lol:
and the old conti in the mid 70's with wall to wall vecro flooring.
(and the old, old conti in the late 60's with the strippers, but even I'm not that old).
Back to trams now...:ohno:

From what Purdy said a month app, his biggest fustration is that in the UK light rail is governed by health and safety and general governance that applies to heavy rail. At no point has the DfT ever come up with light rail versions for procurement or operation, hence closing a station like Woodlands Rd or Mosley St is treated like shutting a rural station that is the only link that community has.

Bet the horns also come under the same heavy rail regulations.

.

Could be done then?.. but a real bell sounds better... can't see it happening though sadly

I think they should use the Dixie Horn file.

From what Purdy said a month app, his biggest fustration is that in the UK light rail is governed by health and safety and general governance that applies to heavy rail. At no point has the DfT ever come up with light rail versions for procurement or operation, hence closing a station like Woodlands Rd or Mosley St is treated like shutting a rural station that is the only link that community has.

Bet the horns also come under the same heavy rail regulations.

Well does that need to remain the case? Croydon use heavy rail alignments and travels at 80kph, Sheffield also uses heavy rail alignments and so does Nottingham and Birmingham. They use bells and also a railway horn for certain things. Bells are less intimidating in pedestrian areas.

There was nearly an incident on Thursday where this young lad was on the phone to his mate on a double tram heading into Market Street. He paralleled the track walking to his mate busy looking at him. Thing was he was walking down the southbound tracks and didn't notice the tram heading for him or hear the horn! Wasn't until he was about 4 foot from this stationary tram he turned and noticed. He jumped quite far when he turned to face a T68 face on!

Just shows you people don't pay any attention where as in Europe they don't have this issue? Think the horns need to stay. This was one of many incidents I saw when snapping trams at the delta for an hour.

They could also have the "death bell" . You'll have heard it. It's when the driver pulls the brakes on hard and it's louder and sounds like an alarm bell....In Amsterdam it's usually the last thing they hear before either going underneath or jumping out of the way.

From what Purdy said a month app, his biggest fustration is that in the UK light rail is governed by health and safety and general governance that applies to heavy rail. At no point has the DfT ever come up with light rail versions for procurement or operation, hence closing a station like Woodlands Rd or Mosley St is treated like shutting a rural station that is the only link that community has.

Bet the horns also come under the same heavy rail regulations.

I share his frustration, seeing German cities with a real mix between heavy trams and light trams I do sometimes wonder if we've missed a trick by not having more light trams (and lighter track) that could perhaps bring down the BCR to such an extent to make trams more affordable for a wider amount of areas/people.

A few years ago there was talk of the govt investigating if by standardising practices/rolling stock they could bring down the cost of light rail, has anything more ever came of this?

In my own fantasy World would love to see the Govt invest in light rail transport in this country by say committing £1bn a year in spending, using standardised practices (see network rail electrification) and a common production line that would say allow 2/3 light rail lines each year to be built across the UK based upon those projects with the highest returns. Within a generation the countries major cities would all have pretty extensive light rail coverage & we'd no longer be so far behind our European cousins.

I share his frustration, seeing German cities with a real mix between heavy trams and light trams I do sometimes wonder if we've missed a trick by not having more light trams (and lighter track) that could perhaps bring down the BCR to such an extent to make trams more affordable for a wider amount of areas/people.

A few years ago there was talk of the govt investigating if by standardising practices/rolling stock they could bring down the cost of light rail, has anything more ever came of this?

In my own fantasy World would love to see the Govt invest in light rail transport in this country by say committing £1bn a year in spending, using standardised practices (see network rail electrification) and a common production line that would say allow 2/3 light rail lines each year to be built across the UK based upon those projects with the highest returns. Within a generation the countries major cities would all have pretty extensive light rail coverage & we'd no longer be so far behind our European cousins.

Totally agree there, we got promised something very similar about 10 years ago and so far it never happened apart from our extensions (all 3 stops of it so far) . It's also gone quiet on the St Albans Branch conversion, luckily the badly thought out Sheffield/ Huddersfield trial was scrapped. Sooner or later they will have to do something when the sprinters etc finally get scrapped. I'm not sure about hybrids using fuel though, electrification needs to be the way forward.

God, was that still there in the 90s. I remember it in the 70s....:lol:

Whenever someone tried to persuade me to go to the Conti they always pulled out the line "it's full of nurses" based on a rumour that NHS staff got in free. Some how as I recall it the reality never matched the picture that created - it was always rough as ...

On the bells thing.

I think the horn on the T68s (combined with the screeching from the wheels on the tracks) has sort-of become the "sound of Manchester". How many times in one day do you subconsciously hear that horn sound echoing off the buildings in town? It's a fab sound! Much better than the M5000s sound, can they not transfer the T68 horn to the M5000s?

can they not transfer the T68 horn to the M5000s?

Not possible. The horn/ whistle on the t68 are pnumaticaly driven, but the m5000's do not have a pnumatic system.

Bet the horns also come under the same heavy rail regulations.

Actually, they don't. Most of the lighting and stuff on the trams is to comply with the Highways rules. !

Paragraph 2.1.4.1 of GMRT2484 (http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_Group_Standards/Rolling%20Stock/Railway%20Group%20Standards/GMRT2484%20Iss%202.pdf) would require 101-106dB at 5m, whereas the EU directive for road vehicles (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=DD:I:1970_II:31970L0388:EN:PDF)requires 108-115db.

Having done this research, that doesn't seem right; the road SPL is higher that a train capable of 100mph? Surely some mistake?

They could also have the "death bell" . You'll have heard it. It's when the driver pulls the brakes on hard and it's louder and sounds like an alarm bell....In Amsterdam it's usually the last thing they hear before either going underneath or jumping out of the way.

From what he said, much to his dissuasion he spent far to much time trying to work to change DfT attitudes on this matter, sounds like no matter how hard he pushes the door ain't opening.

I share his frustration, seeing German cities with a real mix between heavy trams and light trams I do sometimes wonder if we've missed a trick by not having more light trams (and lighter track) that could perhaps bring down the BCR to such an extent to make trams more affordable for a wider amount of areas/people.

A few years ago there was talk of the govt investigating if by standardising practices/rolling stock they could bring down the cost of light rail, has anything more ever came of this?

In my own fantasy World would love to see the Govt invest in light rail transport in this country by say committing £1bn a year in spending, using standardised practices (see network rail electrification) and a common production line that would say allow 2/3 light rail lines each year to be built across the UK based upon those projects with the highest returns. Within a generation the countries major cities would all have pretty extensive light rail coverage & we'd no longer be so far behind our European cousins.

I agree, 99%.

Consider the trams.

The Sheffield teams have much more expensive highly powered motors due to the hills. Presumably forcing everyone into paying over the odds for unnecessarily powerful trams would be folly.

Must should be standardised, but some areas will require some bespoke decisions to be taken.

...
Having done this research, that doesn't seem right; the road SPL is higher that a train capable of 100mph? Surely some mistake?

I would think the main purpose of a train horn is to warn pedestrians at ungated crossings (Usually in fairly quite surroundings) and workmen on the line.

Road horns have to be audible to other drivers inside a car above the ambient road noise.

Maybe this explains the difference ?

(Admittedly the rail workers may be wearing ear protectors and using a grinder at the time which is where my argument falls down ... )

I would think the main purpose of a train horn is to warn pedestrians at ungated crossings (Usually in fairly quite surroundings) and workmen on the line.

Road horns have to be audible to other drivers inside a car above the ambient road noise.

Maybe this explains the difference ?

(Admittedly the rail workers may be wearing ear protectors and using a grinder at the time which is where my argument falls down ... )

There's two horns, one for use on the railway lines and one for use on the streets. It's not allowed for the tram drivers to use the railway horn on the street and they can be in big trouble if reported using it. There's no need, especially as they use it to intimidate other road users whilst breaking the law themselves. They also have to reach over to change the setting to change the horn sound which means that they could have avoided the situation or they are leaning over to change the setting whilst running someone over.

When you see a sign "Change to street running mode" it's that switch they change which automatically changes the horn.

Now tell me no one would hear this if it came towards them with that bell ringing....lol .Even with headphones in, looking down the other way doing a text.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4OwPSI5eJQ

Nobody was killed in the making of the film...lol

Nobody was killed in the making of the film...lol

But what about the poor tram? I hope it was ok ...

There's two horns, one for use on the railway lines and one for use on the streets.


When you see a sign "Change to street running mode" it's that switch they change which automatically changes the horn.

Err ... read my post again (and remember that more dB is louder). The RGS standard for train horns is quieter than the EU one for car horns. Shirley not?

Good to see it's not just us :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQSY0qqRFDE&feature=related

Err ... read my post again (and remember that more dB is louder). The RGS standard for train horns is quieter than the EU one for car horns. Shirley not?

yep, but I was talking about something else... sorry, have had too much Red Bull this afternoon. Still, all the other UK cities now use the bell, still makes me wonder why Manchester is different, apart from being the first modern tramway?

Knowing nothing really about Blackpool other than more than 3 hours is too much, I went last week and noticed they use bells now on their wonderful new tramway. Did they do this before as I don't remember hearing any?

yep, but I was talking about something else... sorry, have had too much Red Bull this afternoon. Still, all the other UK cities now use the bell, still makes me wonder why Manchester is different, apart from being the first modern tramway?

Knowing nothing really about Blackpool other than more than 3 hours is too much, I went last week and noticed they use bells now on their wonderful new tramway. Did they do this before as I don't remember hearing any?

Yep, bells were standard on the heritage trams. Some did get fitted with electric horns though.

Sheffield has bells too, though I'm pretty sure they have horns too for when silly drivers almost cause an accident on the numerous road sections.

Yep, bells were standard on the heritage trams. Some did get fitted with electric horns though.

Blackpools old trams have had klaxons for years! Can't say I've ever heard a bell before the flexitys arrived, except for on loan trams!

Had a bit of fun with Google Sketch-up and came up with this!

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7277/7099520489_69a3055fdb_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70372987@N02/7099520489/)
My unoffical image impression of a cross-section of Hollyhedge Road (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70372987@N02/7099520489/) by michael_mcniven (http://www.flickr.com/people/70372987@N02/), on Flickr

If we're talking intra-suburban routes, this is a good one:

http://www.tfgm.com/upload/routemaps/168_169_11-1209.pdf

Was a number 19 at one time, not sure it was ever a tram though.

The 168/169 is a combination of a number of services including the old Ashton to Droylsden No 5 and a Droylsden to Levenshulme service whose number I can't recall. It has gradually become longer and longer over the years and suffers a number of operators during the course of the week. It must be one of the slowest routes in Graeter Manchester after the Mossley to Shudehill circulars (217/218)

Am I on the right thread for the current extensions?

Am I on the right thread for the current extensions?

No. This is the bells and horns thread. :|

Hi

Good pictures of EML to Droylsden Johnny:cheers:, do that mean line to Droylsden is nearly finish soon and if so I wonder how long it will be until they have tram going to Droylsden

Hmm, some activity on the EML today :) There was a street cleaner type thing on the tracks near the tunnel under Great Ancoats Street and the tracks near New Islington stop (where it crosses Munday Street) had been cleared out when I was on my way back later, they were previously full up with gunk!

^^^^ I wonder if they ever had tram running it only power to Velopark let? and wonder if they thinking of opening line to Velopark in August for start of new Football season so fans can catch a tram to City ground?

It must be one of the slowest routes in Graeter Manchester after the Mossley to Shudehill circulars (217/218)

Not a patch on the 22 though.

From what Purdy said a month app, his biggest fustration is that in the UK light rail is governed by health and safety and general governance that applies to heavy rail. At no point has the DfT ever come up with light rail versions for procurement or operation, hence closing a station like Woodlands Rd or Mosley St is treated like shutting a rural station that is the only link that community has.

Bet the horns also come under the same heavy rail regulations.

According to what I've read in the souvenir book, published just after the opening of the system in 1992, the option of using bells was considered. It was discounted for some of the reasons mentioned, too quiet seemed to be the conclusion drawn about bells in use on other systems at the time.

Hi

Good pictures of EML to Droylsden Johnny:cheers:, do that mean line to Droylsden is nearly finish soon and if so I wonder how long it will be until they have tram going to Droylsden

^^^^ I wonder if they ever had tram running it only power to Velopark let? and wonder if they thinking of opening line to Velopark in August for start of new Football season so fans can catch a tram to City ground?

I wonder how the TMS trials are going to allow Velopark/Droylsden to open soon or if this alternate solution is going to be implemented first.......

With all the disruption that would cause.

Unlikely.

Maybe, just maybe, they think that 2 lines in the city centre will be sufficient for all feasible extensions and we should take them at their word?

What about using the route of the former Manchester and Salford Junction Canal? :)

do that mean line to Droylsden is nearly finish soon and if so I wonder how long it will be until they have tram going to Droylsden

I wonder how the TMS trials are going to allow Velopark/Droylsden to open soon or if this alternate solution is going to be implemented first.......
There is still quite a lot of work to do between Velopark and Droylsden. A lot of the traffic lights are still not installed though they are making gradual progress. And there is still that short gap in the rails (plus a few metres of concreting still to be done) at Cemetery Road stop, which has been like that for months now.....

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc205/loweskid/Skyscrapercity/060312-02.jpg

Personally, I'll be very surprised if we see any trams running before the autumn *.

Edit - * between Velopark and Droylsden that is. I'm a bit more optimistic about Picc to Velopark.

What about using the route of the former Manchester and Salford Junction Canal? :)

What about using it?
It doesn't go from anywhere useful to anywhere useful!

A bit why it failed as a canal.

I would think the main purpose of a train horn is to warn pedestrians at ungated crossings (Usually in fairly quite surroundings) and workmen on the line.



First time I rode on Metrolink was around 1993, when a colleague and I were sent on a course at Trafford Park - this was before the only teenager you saw without a mobile at their ear was the robbery victim. As we watched the 10th near-miss between Piccadily Gardens and St Peters Square, I asked him what was turquoise, almost 100ft long, went "Toot toot", and was completely invisible from the outside.

Oh god please no. I actually don't like pedestrianised zones. They're too quiet, the sound of footsteps isn't big-city. I like rumbling, loud streets. It's what a city is about! With well-designed pavements you could easily make areas like this pedestrian friendly still.

Pedestrianised areas are so small-town.

Speaking as an occasional pedestrian, I don't quite know what to say.

In Bristol, we have a number of quasi-pedestrian zones, where the signs prohibit moving vehicles, but allow exceptions like buses, joyriders, police, dustbin wagons, deliveries, anyone who can't read, and, fortunately for visitors who think it really is pedestrianised, ambulances. It's not a model I would recommend, as it encourages self-regulation of a type not seen in the Localism Bill.

My preferred journey to work would be public transport, but I often have to go to other places, so take the car. If I know I'm staying put all day, I walk. First Bus run the services, and a 5-mile round trip by Shanks's Pony is cheaper, and often quicker. They tell me it's good for me, too.

Boy, am I jealous!

What about using it?
It doesn't go from anywhere useful to anywhere useful!

A bit why it failed as a canal.

I actually watched a video about that last night!!! :lol:

Anyway, it only goes from Water St, to underneath Manchester Central, not much use as a city crossing for the tram. Plus even if it was in a reasonable place, it requires a lot of work.
1) It is flooded,
2) It was used as air raid shelters in WW2, so partition walls, toilets etc have been put in. Even one of the sets of stairs down to it was put in in such a way that it blocked the width of the old canal

BTW, anyone wish to see a part of the old tunnel, go over to the Bridgewater hall and walk through the tunnel underneath the road that the Metrolink is on. The original tow path stones are still in place in that tunnel!

I actually watched a video about that last night!!! :lol:

Anyway, it only goes from Water St, to underneath Manchester Central, not much use as a city crossing for the tram. Plus even if it was in a reasonable place, it requires a lot of work.
1) It is flooded,
2) It was used as air raid shelters in WW2, so partition walls, toilets etc have been put in. Even one of the sets of stairs down to it was put in in such a way that it blocked the width of the old canal

BTW, anyone wish to see a part of the old tunnel, go over to the Bridgewater hall and walk through the tunnel underneath the road that the Metrolink is on. The original tow path stones are still in place in that tunnel!

However, this allows perhaps a North South crossing but I'll put it on the other thread! Fantastic everyone I never knew this canal was here, that's really interesting.

I wonder if they ever had tram running it only power to Velopark let? and wonder if they thinking of opening line to Velopark in August for start of new Football season so fans can catch a tram to City ground?

Apparently they had trams running down last year (so the estate agents told me when I bought this place) I presume for clearance testing, and TfGM have said they want the line open as far as Velopark before the new football season.

But it requires TMS...

Hi

Good pictures of EML to Droylsden Johnny:cheers:, do that mean line to Droylsden is nearly finish soon and if so I wonder how long it will be until they have tram going to Droylsden
^^^^ I wonder if they ever had tram running it only power to Velopark let? and wonder if they thinking of opening line to Velopark in August for start of new Football season so fans can catch a tram to City ground?

Cheers, ro2, but I think the situation on EML is still the same as it was exactly a year ago, when one of the site workmen told me they were trying to get it open for the last football season!! As cats says, it all depends on TMS, and your namesake Mr Purdy is still keeping his cards close to his chest on that one. No predictions, nor any indication of whether they know yet what the problem is!

What is clear, however, is that the infrastructure is moving on apace - Droylsden and even Ashton are catching up fast, it could even end up opening all at once, but I hope not.

Please, has anyone any news on whether driver training will start on the Oldham line this coming week??

By the way, ro2 (is it Andrew?) I was looking out for you on Boundary Park yesterday, I was there to watch my team, Preston North End, make a draw with Oldham! Quite a good game, and at least mid-table mediocrity is now assured for both sides!

I took a few pix on the way to the match, travelling via Ashton :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Droylsden/101_9662.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Droylsden/101_9666.jpg

Approaching Audenshaw, this isolated little bit of track is in the middle of one of the remaining gaps on Phase 3b :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/Audenshaw/101_9668.jpg

I think it was done that way to avoid closing Kershaw Lane twice :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/Audenshaw/101_9695.jpg

Another fair-sized gap West of Ashton :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9677.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9678.jpg

The junction of Cavendish Street :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9674.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9675.jpg

Ashton terminus :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9680.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9679.jpg

Tulips adorned the block of flats that used to stand on the site of the terminus :--

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/aul7_0008-1.jpg

They keep coming back year after year :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/aul7_0006-1.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9673.jpg

On the way home from the match, cold & hungry, you'll have guessed that this is one of my favourite shots of the CIS building! . . .

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Droylsden/101_9699.jpg

:banana:

TfGM have said they want the line open as far as Velopark before the new football season.

Which one? :)

But it requires TMS...

Maybe. Maybe not. TMS isn't the only solution. In fact it's the number one solution but not the only one.

Which one? :)

The East Manchester Line.

The East Manchester Line.

I think he meant which season. :D

Maybe. Maybe not. TMS isn't the only solution. In fact it's the number one solution but not the only one.

We need some sort of Tram Management System, be it the same solution that Thales are struggling with or a different option, we will require a TMS to run on the EML.

We need some sort of Tram Management System, be it the same solution that Thales are struggling with or a different option, we will require a TMS to run on the EML.

Not really. It's possible to use other technology to do it Cats. In fact other off the shelves parts could do it.

Yes, but those parts will go to make some sort of Tram Management System.

Are you suggesting the trams run around unmanaged?

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick Cats. I think what Mackenzie is is trying to say is that maybe the new lines could open before THE system (being implemented by Thales) that we call "TMS", but could be opened with a cobbled together type of system that manages the trams. Which is what I think you were trying to say too... and Mac has got the wrong end of your stick too

Edit: hit send too soon!

Aye, I understand exactly, hence the [pedant] part of post 17544.

We do need some sort of TMS, be it what Thales are trying to implement or another way of managing the trams.

Yeah sorry I hadn't finished my post before I hit send - silly me. You're both saying pretty much the same thing.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick Cats. I think what Mackenzie is is trying to say is that maybe the new lines could open before THE system (being implemented by Thales) that we call "TMS", but could be opened with a cobbled together type of system that manages the trams. Which is what I think you were trying to say too... and Mac has got the wrong end of your stick too

Edit: hit send too soon!

Aye, I understand exactly, hence the [pedant] part of post 17544.

We do need some sort of TMS, be it what Thales are trying to implement or another way of managing the trams.

There's a way of using an alternative system that will allow the trams to run and can provide just as many benefits as 'Thales TMS' (thinking using that will be much more helpful). However we already have a 'TMS' system in place now, it just can't cope with what Thales system could provide. What I was suggesting is there is a way to do it with other technologies, especially as even TfGM has now stated its giving 'Thales TMS' a last chance to prove itself before going with these alternative technologies.

And Heart, you put it better than me!

Thing is, how long will it take to get an alternative working?

Was the Croydon scheme not over a year late due to problems with their TMS system?

My illinformed guess is that switching to another technology is far from certain to work straight off the shelf.

Thing is, how long will it take to get an alternative working?

Was the Croydon scheme not over a year late due to problems with their TMS system?

My illinformed guess is that switching to another technology is far from certain to work straight off the shelf.

That's a very good question but I can see TfGM looking at 'Thales TMS' and thinking its still not working now doing the basic junction at Firswood, how can it cope with the Delta and 2CC. At some point they will hit right we need to look at other means.

Depending on what technology and how they integrate it, could be working soonish. But even this could be a stop gap until they get 'Thales TMS' working.

I won't pretend to understand the technical reasons for the problems, but I bet this is going to end in court.

The lost fare revenue and additional costs of manning the MC junction, having all the trams sat around doing nowt is going to be costing TfGM a small fortune.

Thales no doubt will have a different opinion as to the reason the problems have arisen than TfGM also.

I won't pretend to understand the technical reasons for the problems, but I bet this is going to end in court.

The lost fare revenue and additional costs of manning the MC junction, having all the trams sat around doing nowt is going to be costing TfGM a small fortune.

Thales no doubt will have a different opinion as to the reason the problems have arisen than TfGM also.

I'd likely to add that I bet Thales would like to understand the problems so they could fix it.

No way is TfGM paying for manning MC. That's Thales job to pay as TfGM shouldn't pay for a new item that doesn't work.

However the long term storage of the M5000's is worrying. Note my comments earlier about the 38ts (Tube Stock) that were stored during WWII. They believe the working life of the cars were cut short and broken down so often towards the end they made the T68's look good.

Aye, from our view point Thales should be paying for MC etc.

However, I am in no doubt that they are preparing a counter actuon against TfGM, no doubt claiming that the original systems were not managed as well as they should have been/Thales were not given the access to the network they required to do the testing/.........

Having been in Thales position I know for sure that they will be indefensive mode, ensuring that they minimise all loses and shift as much responsibility onto TfGM for problems.

Agree about the M5000s as well.

Half wonder if there is any merit in running a night time service of the M5000. Each night alternating the trams out on the lines. Use true line of sight Alty - Bury. i.e. no signals whatsoever.

Cheers, ro2, but I think the situation on EML is still the same as it was exactly a year ago, when one of the site workmen told me they were trying to get it open for the last football season!! As cats says, it all depends on TMS, and your namesake Mr Purdy is still keeping his cards close to his chest on that one. No predictions, nor any indication of whether they know yet what the problem is!

What is clear, however, is that the infrastructure is moving on apace - Droylsden and even Ashton are catching up fast, it could even end up opening all at once, but I hope not.

Please, has anyone any news on whether driver training will start on the Oldham line this coming week??

By the way, ro2 (is it Andrew?) I was looking out for you on Boundary Park yesterday, I was there to watch my team, Preston North End, make a draw with Oldham! Quite a good game, and at least mid-table mediocrity is now assured for both sides!

I took a few pix on the way to the match, travelling via Ashton :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Droylsden/101_9662.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Droylsden/101_9666.jpg

Approaching Audenshaw, this isolated little bit of track is in the middle of one of the remaining gaps on Phase 3b :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/Audenshaw/101_9668.jpg

I think it was done that way to avoid closing Kershaw Lane twice :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/Audenshaw/101_9695.jpg

Another fair-sized gap West of Ashton :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9677.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9678.jpg

The junction of Cavendish Street :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9674.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9675.jpg

Ashton terminus :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9680.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9679.jpg

Tulips adorned the block of flats that used to stand on the site of the terminus :--

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/aul7_0008-1.jpg

They keep coming back year after year :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/aul7_0006-1.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Ashton/101_9673.jpg

On the way home from the match, cold & hungry, you'll have guessed that this is one of my favourite shots of the CIS building! . . .

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Droylsden/101_9699.jpg

:banana:
There is a walk through tommorrow 22 april with all staff involved in driver training then tuesday training will commence.:lol:

There is a walk through tommorrow 22 april with all staff involved in driver training then tuesday training will commence.:lol:

Seriously?

How are the signals on Sheffield St being managed then?

Is the problematic TMS actually working as we just have not been told?

I won't pretend to understand the technical reasons for the problems, but I bet this is going to end in court.

The lost fare revenue and additional costs of manning the MC junction, having all the trams sat around doing nowt is going to be costing TfGM a small fortune.

Thales no doubt will have a different opinion as to the reason the problems have arisen than TfGM also.

I heard something about Thales the other day that is alarming to say the least.

In realtion to TMS on Metrolink or in general?

Come on, spill the beans. Even if it is a PM :D

Is it along the lines of they allocated x million towards implementing TMS on Metrolink, they have spent x million, and now are not going to spend any more and are quite happy for TMS never to be implemented as it is cheaper to take the penalty hit than fix the problem?

Seriously?

How are the signals on Sheffield St being managed then?

Is the problematic TMS actually working as we just have not been told?

I think he means for Oldham not Velopark.

I think he means for Oldham not Velopark.

Yes, suspect you are correct.

It was the photos of the EML that threw me.

I heard something about Thales the other day that is alarming to say the least.

Aye fernando, please share! :-D

I heard something about Thales the other day that is alarming to say the least.

They are actually a firm of cowboy builders who have taken the money and run. TFGM will be featured on Watchdog next week.

I actually think #17560 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=90693219&postcount=17560) may not be far off.

Hi All

There is a walk through tommorrow 22 april with all staff involved in driver training then tuesday training will commence.:lol:

^^^^ At aleast that some good news for Oldham line and is that why the Bury line closed next weekend so they can test the crossover at Irk Valley Junction?

Seriously?

How are the signals on Sheffield St being managed then?

Is the problematic TMS actually working as we just have not been told?

^^^^ metroman2 mean the Oldham line LNGCats because he going off what Johnny said about "any news on whether driver training will start on the Oldham line this coming week"

Cheers, ro2, but I think the situation on EML is still the same as it was exactly a year ago, when one of the site workmen told me they were trying to get it open for the last football season!! As cats says, it all depends on TMS, and your namesake Mr Purdy is still keeping his cards close to his chest on that one. No predictions, nor any indication of whether they know yet what the problem is!

What is clear, however, is that the infrastructure is moving on apace - Droylsden and even Ashton are catching up fast, it could even end up opening all at once, but I hope not.

Please, has anyone any news on whether driver training will start on the Oldham line this coming week??

By the way, ro2 (is it Andrew?) I was looking out for you on Boundary Park yesterday, I was there to watch my team, Preston North End, make a draw with Oldham! Quite a good game, and at least mid-table mediocrity is now assured for both sides!

:banana:

Good picture of EML Johnny:cheers:, the football yesterday wasn't that good was it as both team didn't what to win that game but aleast Oldham are safe know and will be playing Preston again next season:).

I took some picture today near Werneth and I post them later when I get a chance.

:banana::banana::banana:

I heard something about Thales the other day that is alarming to say the least.

Is it along the lines of they allocated x million towards implementing TMS on Metrolink, they have spent x million, and now are not going to spend any more and are quite happy for TMS never to be implemented as it is cheaper to take the penalty hit than fix the problem?

Think you forget Metrolink isn't Thales biggest screw up.

Think you forget Metrolink isn't Thales biggest screw up.

Probably, but they are a massive, and I mean massive, company so you would expect the odd cock up.

They are easily big enough to cope with the odd contractual 'miss'. Metrolink will be a pin prick on a company the size of Thales. Maybe that is a problem in itself.

Well, if anyone wants a go at sorting it out, there's a job going at Thales....

Field Quality Engineer

1. Purpose of the Job

The Field Quality Engineer’s role is to provide professional and effective quality surveillance activities across the Manchester Metro Link Design, Construct and Maintain (DCM) and Tram Management System (TMS) Projects in order for Thales to meet customer, stakeholders, contractual quality, installation, test, commissioning and maintenance requirements.

http://www.totaljobs.com/JobSeeking/Field-Quality-Engineer---1203649_job53379211

Well, if anyone wants a go at sorting it out, there's a job going at Thales....



http://www.totaljobs.com/JobSeeking/Field-Quality-Engineer---1203649_job53379211

At least there is no talk of knowledge of preparing defense cases like the one advertised at Christmas.

Think you forget Metrolink isn't Thales biggest screw up.

Which one what that?

Which one what that?

Jubilee Line?

Probably, but they are a massive, and I mean massive, company so you would expect the odd cock up.

They are easily big enough to cope with the odd contractual 'miss'. Metrolink will be a pin prick on a company the size of Thales. Maybe that is a problem in itself.



Which one what that?



Jubilee Line?

Future is correct. Delivered two years late (well this version anyway) and it still breaks own on a weekly basis. Even then the massive disruption it caused shutting a line that doesn't even have alternative and replacement buses couldn't properly be provided.

Metrolink it a much smaller contract and therefore won't get the resources the Jubilee Line did. That said they're doing well with the Northern Line and have actually scaled back the closure a second time because they are so ahead.

Future is correct. Delivered two years late (well this version anyway) and it still breaks own on a weekly basis. Even then the massive disruption it caused shutting a line that doesn't even have alternative and replacement buses couldn't properly be provided.




Haha. T'riffic! I'm in Landan on Tuesday. Canary Wharf too, so I'll be using the Jubilee Line.

Were Thales not inventing a new signalling system for jubillee? Gave up when it became clear it was not going to happen?

I though Metrolink was very much making use of existing technologies?

There is a walk through tommorrow 22 april with all staff involved in driver training then tuesday training will commence.:lol:

Cheers metro - the forecast is rain for later in the week but we will see what we can do!!! (ps I guess the 'walk-through' is tomorrow Monday 23 April?)

Also here's a tip when quoting, metro - if you don't intend to repeat photographs etc., delete all the relevant bits in the 'quote' section at the top of the reply. The photo codes are the ones between and

Thanks once again - v. useful info.

Probably, but they are a massive, and I mean massive, company so you would expect the odd cock up.

They are easily big enough to cope with the odd contractual 'miss'. Metrolink will be a pin prick on a company the size of Thales. Maybe that is a problem in itself.

You'd also think that being so big, they'd have the resources to throw some more engineers behind the problem to solve it pronto. No rail operator is going to give signalling contracts to Thales if they see that they can't implement a relatively straightforward system in Manchester. You'd think they'd be trying to save their reputation.

You'd also think that being so big, they'd have the resources to throw some more engineers behind the problem to solve it pronto. No rail operator is going to give signalling contracts to Thales if they see that they can't implement a relatively straightforward system in Manchester. You'd think they'd be trying to save their reputation.

Not necessarily.

If Thales have only budgeted £x million to implement TMS in Manchester, they are not going to spend > £x million implementing TMS in Manchester.

The size of the company may give them the ability to absorb the odd cock up without overly damaging their reputation.

I used to work for IBM, a huge global player in IT. They were profitable and successful because they ran a tight ship and made money where they could. They certainly never threw money chasing a failure.

Haha. T'riffic! I'm in Landan on Tuesday. Canary Wharf too, so I'll be using the Jubilee Line.

Stay away in peak, it's nasty.

Were Thales not inventing a new signalling system for jubillee? Gave up when it became clear it was not going to happen?

I though Metrolink was very much making use of existing technologies?

The Jubilee is using existing technology. Nothing new there as the system the DLR using is an earlier version.

They didn't give up at all but delivered the project very very late.

Interesting the Victoria ATO system upgrade went much smoother. (If you don't count the new train issues).

I thought the problems with the Jubilee was they tried to move away from block signalling, towards some sort of 'multi-block' signalling, where by there were thousands of blocks on the line and each train was kept a lot closer than normal block signalling would allow.

Thing is, it never worked and they had to revert to regular block signals.

Seem to remember an example on TV with loads of lights down the side of the track.

Makes you wonder how the Automated Victoria Line was implemented in the 1960's.

I am thinking of the delays in the 90's, just been reading about the new systems implemented in the last 5 years.

Ignore me.

Stay away in peak, it's nasty.



The Jubilee is using existing technology. Nothing new there as the system the DLR using is an earlier version.

They didn't give up at all but delivered the project very very late.

Interesting the Victoria ATO system upgrade went much smoother. (If you don't count the new train issues).

Haha. I get into Euston @ 9am. It will be fun I'm sure. Certainly an experience.

As for the DLR - Weren't they testing the Olympic timetable this weekend? I Wonder how that went?

I thought the problems with the Jubilee was they tried to move away from block signalling, towards some sort of 'multi-block' signalling, where by there were thousands of blocks on the line and each train was kept a lot closer than normal block signalling would allow.

Thing is, it never worked and they had to revert to regular block signals.

Seem to remember an example on TV with loads of lights down the side of the track.

I am thinking of the delays in the 90's, just been reading about the new systems implemented in the last 5 years.

Ignore me.

Not quite thousands of blocks but each train had its own block and it would know how fast or slow to go to maintenance a safe distance. In the end they reused the withdrawn stuff off the Central Line.

Makes you wonder how the Automated Victoria Line was implemented in the 1960's.

They did it simply three codes I think. Go, slow and stop. Very clever system.



Haha. I get into Euston @ 9am. It will be fun I'm sure. Certainly an experience.

As for the DLR - Weren't they testing the Olympic timetable this weekend? I Wonder how that went?

Not heard anything but the other trials have gone well so far!

Thales were not given the access to the network they required to do the testing


Yep - there's nothing like prototyping a design on a working tram system :nuts:

Yep - there's nothing like prototyping a design on a working tram system :nuts:

I ain't saying it is a legitimate claim, but please do not be naive enough to think that Thales will not have loads of ammunition for a counter claim against TfGM.

No matter what we may think, they (Thales) had no way of replicating what was on the ground when they arrived.

I've been there. I have been in Thales position. They will not be as 'guilty' in this whole shambles in their mind as many on here would think.

Last week we had a day out in Blackpool to look at the new system - fabulous!

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Blackpool/101_9506.jpg

I have posted 25 pics on the relevant thread :-

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=572141&page=25#483

Apart from the superb aesthetics, one of the most impressive features to me was the ability of the trams to 'call' the traffic lights at conflicting road junctions well enough in advance, so they can go gliding speedily through without hardly having to slow down. This seems to have been achieved by quite an elaborate system of signalling - there are two separate small red corner lights above each dot matrix, which go out one after the other prior to the 'off'. Somewhat beyond my technical knowledge, but it looks like the procedure gives progressive information to the driver, about the imminence or otherwise of a 'proceed' aspect (a bit like a 'distant' railway signal), enabling them to 'read the road' ahead more efficiently.

It all makes for a superbly smooth and continuous 'glide' along the coastal way. Sorry to say it, but it makes the stumbling and hesitant caterpillar crawl that our bananas struggle along with through Salford Quays, seem like an amateur performance (or as my mother would have said, a 'broken down clog'!)

But I guess we have to remember that Metrolink is currently in the middle of a humungous transitional phase, and similar refinements and niceties may well be on the cards when they don't have so many other gigantic preoccupations!!

:banana:

Here are some pictures that I took today near Werneth

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8004/7102844291_0ee901521f_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/7102844291/)
Metrolink line at Werneth (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/7102844291/)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7209/6956774876_305dc94e50_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/6956774876/)
Metrolink tracks at Werneth (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/6956774876/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8008/6956776090_70574456d1_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/6956776090/)
Old Oldham Werneth Railway station (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/6956776090/)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7260/6956777348_9fb6e80dc4_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/6956777348/)
Oldham metrolink line 3B line. 3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/6956777348/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8022/7102850783_8a8a0ce650_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/7102850783/)
Oldham metrolink line 3B line (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/7102850783/)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7134/7102842959_1292765235_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/7102842959/)
Freehold Car park (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/7102842959/)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7193/6956781098_b49223ef50_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/6956781098/)
Soon going to be Metrolink line (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/6956781098/)

^^^^ Do anyone know on that picture if them building will have to be knock down as I can't seeing tram going through the middle of road with them building they?

They are some more on my flickr homepage too

http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/

:banana::banana:

Last week we had a day out in Blackpool to look at the new system - fabulous!



Whilst I'm not a fan of the livery of the Blackpool trams, the trams themselves look super cool! I likes! :cheers:

Haha. I get into Euston @ 9am. It will be fun I'm sure. Certainly an experience.

As for the DLR - Weren't they testing the Olympic timetable this weekend? I Wonder how that went?

Are you going from Piccadilly? I could be announcing your train!

I ain't saying it is a legitimate claim, but please do not be naive enough to think that Thales will not have loads of ammunition for a counter claim against TfGM.

I'm not naive - what I don't like is hiding an inadequate design behind an army of lawyers...


No matter what we may think, they (Thales) had no way of replicating what was on the ground when they arrived.

They are not a signalling company - they don't seem to have a idea of the needs and limitations of trackside signalling/instrumentation.


I've been there. I have been in Thales position. They will not be as 'guilty' in this whole shambles in their mind as many on here would think.

Me too - again the lawyers will have a field day - at the expense of a solution.

We agree (I think).

Not necessarily.

If Thales have only budgeted £x million to implement TMS in Manchester, they are not going to spend > £x million implementing TMS in Manchester.

The size of the company may give them the ability to absorb the odd cock up without overly damaging their reputation.

I dunno. If I worked in procurement for a local authority, there's not a chance in hell I'd even consider Thales now, knowing what a bunch of inept cowboys they are.

We agree (I think).

Yeh - roll on a working system. :)

I dunno. If I worked in procurement for a local authority, there's not a chance in hell I'd even consider Thales now, knowing what a bunch of inept cowboys they are.

They'll be able to roll out dozens and dozens of very successful implementations.

I bet all companies in this area have similar skeletons in their 'failed' cupboard.

I really do not think the shambles at Metrolink will adversely affect their ability to win new work, in fact, I bet down the line they spin it as a great success.

They'll be able to roll out dozens and dozens of very successful implementations.

I bet all companies in this area have similar skeletons in their 'failed' cupboard.

I really do not think the shambles at Metrolink will adversely affect their ability to win new work, in fact, I bet down the line they spin it as a great success.

That depends on whether they can fix it or whether TfGM will now have to open up procurement for a system from another supplier.

From their point of view, they will sell it as either a great rescue of a situation that required a unique, bespoke out of the box solution that only Thales could deliver, or it will be ignored and written off as too hard to deliver, Thales blaming TfGM and TfGM blaming Thales.

As was said, the Jubilee line was not a great success, yet Borgen and Manchester hve gone with Thales. Others will follow in the future.

Whilst I'm not a fan of the livery of the Blackpool trams, the trams themselves look super cool! I likes! :cheers:

North West is now the only UK region outside London to have 3 really modern "Metro-like" transport systems :banana:

Liverpool Merseyrail
Manchester Metrolink
Blackpool Trams

Are you going from Piccadilly? I could be announcing your train!

Sure am! :banana:

Sure am! :banana:

Expect a personalised announcement :banana:

Expect a personalised announcement :banana:

:D:D:D

Sure am! :banana:

*adorns nerd hat*

Travelling on the 0700?

Whenever someone tried to persuade me to go to the Conti they always pulled out the line "it's full of nurses" based on a rumour that NHS staff got in free. Some how as I recall it the reality never matched the picture that created - it was always rough as ...

Many happy memories, always the threat / promise of "Nurses Night" which always seemed to be like good weather on holiday ("You should have been here last week").

And yet, and yet.

That one magical evening when all the legends came to life. Heaving and buzzing, DJ dedicating records to all the girls from such and such A&E and so on it went, as they danced on tables like out-takes from Coyote Ugly.

And, on that night of dreams, I could only watch open mouthed, being in a mixed group of friends.

But luckily for me there must have been something in the damp, sweaty, basement air that night as one of my group, herself a nurse...

Happy days :)

North West is now the only UK region outside London to have 3 really modern "Metro-like" transport systems :banana:

Liverpool Merseyrail
Manchester Metrolink
Blackpool Trams

What about Sheffield and Nottingham and their tram systems?

From their point of view, they will sell it as either a great rescue of a situation that required a unique, bespoke out of the box solution that only Thales could deliver, or it will be ignored and written off as too hard to deliver, Thales blaming TfGM and TfGM blaming Thales.

As was said, the Jubilee line was not a great success, yet Borgen and Manchester hve gone with Thales. Others will follow in the future.

Jubilee was a massive problem but the Northern Line upgrade lessons have been learnt and they are well ahead now. The DLR resignalling has been fairly smooth with very little closures at all.

What about Sheffield and Nottingham and their tram systems?

They don't really count as the North West.

North West is now the only UK region outside London to have 3 really modern "Metro-like" transport systems :banana:

Liverpool Merseyrail
Manchester Metrolink
Blackpool Trams

.... and Glasgow Volde which is the busiest , and most intense UK system outside of London. or did it just have to be in the north west.

Last week we had a day out in Blackpool to look at the new system - fabulous!

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Blackpool/101_9506.jpg

I have posted 25 pics on the relevant thread :-

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=572141&page=25#483

Apart from the superb aesthetics, one of the most impressive features to me was the ability of the trams to 'call' the traffic lights at conflicting road junctions well enough in advance, so they can go gliding speedily through without hardly having to slow down. This seems to have been achieved by quite an elaborate system of signalling - there are two separate small red corner lights above each dot matrix, which go out one after the other prior to the 'off'. Somewhat beyond my technical knowledge, but it looks like the procedure gives progressive information to the driver, about the imminence or otherwise of a 'proceed' aspect (a bit like a 'distant' railway signal), enabling them to 'read the road' ahead more efficiently.

It all makes for a superbly smooth and continuous 'glide' along the coastal way. Sorry to say it, but it makes the stumbling and hesitant caterpillar crawl that our bananas struggle along with through Salford Quays, seem like an amateur performance (or as my mother would have said, a 'broken down clog'!)

But I guess we have to remember that Metrolink is currently in the middle of a humungous transitional phase, and similar refinements and niceties may well be on the cards when they don't have so many other gigantic preoccupations!!

:banana:

It was very impressive. I liked the simplicity of the stops and lack of clutter. There's not much to get vandalised or worn out, not like here, especially if you look at some of the refurbished stops. (*) The speeds are fairly impressive now but one thing I wonder about are the diamond speed signs. Are they MPH or KPH? The reason is that the speedo for the driver (not now real, but actually a computer image which looks like one) is in kph, so presumably the signs are kph which means they should have been crawling along and they weren't. Surely the driver doesn't have to guess? Bells too !Although a fake one. The interiors are nicely kitted out with seats in groups of 4 , all by windows and no pillars in the way. Good idea as many families will use the system. It's also one thing we could do with.
Anyway, the cafe at Fleetwood is a dream. Not the cheap plastic one, the one across the road where you get a meal deal with freshly fried haddock and not cod. yay! That is, if the lady gets to work out how to use the till..:lol:

(*) Check out Deansgate. All boarding signs pointing down, just like they do in most places and still they persisit in fitting them, half the sign missing from the exit from the footbridge, in fact this yellow although refreshing, doesn't seem to last long, and ends up grubby. Observation, not complaint.

(*) Check out Deansgate. All boarding signs pointing down, just like they do in most places and still they persisit in fitting them, half the sign missing from the exit from the footbridge, in fact this yellow although refreshing, doesn't seem to last long, and ends up grubby. Observation, not complaint.

Aye those boarding signs just invite trouble. They should make the top edges really sharp :-)

Aye those boarding signs just invite trouble. They should make the top edges really sharp :-)

I don't think it's people pulling them down though Martin. They are poor quality cheap flimsy things stuck on with what appears to be one catch. Most of the signage is similar. The signs outside Piccadilly station on London Road are hanging off the wall, look like they have never been cleaned. There should be massive yellow diamonds there. Maybe that will come? I passed Whitefield one day and and saw they were slapping grey paint over broken bricks. The paint at Crumpsall on the new wall has washed off, not even seeing in 6 months... Less is more?

.... and Glasgow Volde which is the busiest , and most intense UK system outside of London. or did it just have to be in the north west.

Glasgow is hardly in North West England!

Glasgow is hardly in North West England!

I read it wrong...quelle surprix! It is northwest of the north west though.....:lol::lol:

I don't think it's people pulling them down though Martin. They are poor quality cheap flimsy things stuck on with what appears to be one catch. Most of the signage is similar. The signs outside Piccadilly station on London Road are hanging off the wall, look like they have never been cleaned. There should be massive yellow diamonds there. Maybe that will come? I passed Whitefield one day and and saw they were slapping grey paint over broken bricks. The paint at Crumpsall on the new wall has washed off, not even seeing in 6 months... Less is more?

I've seen delinquents hanging off them at Old Trafford, Stretford and Deansgate-Castlefield so far... Can't be doing them any good!

I've seen delinquents hanging off them at Old Trafford, Stretford and Deansgate-Castlefield so far... Can't be doing them any good!

I've not seen that anywhere. Do they need them at all though as other systems manage with the blocks on the platforms?

They don't really count as the North West.

I need to wake up better in the morning!

.... and Glasgow Volde which is the busiest , and most intense UK system outside of London. or did it just have to be in the north west.

Mmmm. Don't often differ with you Motor but from the figures I saw recently Glasgow is only carrying 41,100 on the "Clockwork Orange" a day - let's hope for their sake the patronage is on the rise after the recent refits coz with 15 stations that really is quite a low number (less than 3000 a day per station - hardly the 4000 per hour that we hear is necessary for a Metro).

Our poor provincial cities - how desperately we need this economic gloom to lift
:ohno:

Mmmm. Don't often differ with you Motor but from the figures I saw recently Glasgow is only carrying 41,100 on the "Clockwork Orange" a day - let's hope for their sake the patronage is on the rise after the recent refits coz with 15 stations that really is quite a low number (less than 3000 a day per station - hardly the 4000 per hour that we hear is necessary for a Metro).


The Clockwork Orange is hardly a metro system. It is a single loop using toy trains. It always looks busy when I travel on it, comparable to a lesser used London Underground line. Maybe a lot of the traffic is concentrated on the link between Buchanan Street and Hillhead? Maybe there is less traffic on the badlands to the South of the Clyde? There may be even less traffic around Ibrox when Rangers go bust!

I think the reference was to the heavy rail system operating out of Central Station. But that is no great shakes apart from carrying a lot of passengers.

Public transport in Glasgow is a total mess. There is no connection between Queen Street and Central Station. Many of the trains have seen better days. The buses are dirty (they are run by First!).

The removal of the Ferris Wheel at Exchange Square has opened up the site of the future tram stop on the Second Crossing :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Second%20Crossing/101_9707.jpg

Looking back towards Victoria :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Second%20Crossing/101_9703.jpg

A banana pops out :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Second%20Crossing/101_9705.jpg

We will also now get a full view of the Corn Exchange (in all its glory once the fence has gone) :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Second%20Crossing/101_9701.jpg

:banana:

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Second%20Crossing/101_9707.jpg
:banana:

Is that by accident that u snapped a Metrolink employee?? :lol:

Edit: And my Metrolink insider knows who that is too!!

The Clockwork Orange is hardly a metro system. It is a single loop using toy trains. It always looks busy when I travel on it, comparable to a lesser used London Underground line. Maybe a lot of the traffic is concentrated on the link between Buchanan Street and Hillhead? Maybe there is less traffic on the badlands to the South of the Clyde? There may be even less traffic around Ibrox when Rangers go bust!

I think the reference was to the heavy rail system operating out of Central Station. But that is no great shakes apart from carrying a lot of passengers.

Public transport in Glasgow is a total mess. There is no connection between Queen Street and Central Station. Many of the trains have seen better days. The buses are dirty (they are run by First!).

I would guess at the busier section being fRom bridge street in the Gorbals to Partick.

If you look at Partick, that has excellent interchange. Apart from Buchanan Street and the link to Queen Street, there are limited interchange possibilities.

A tunnel is needed between St Epoch.and central station low level.

There needs to be an interchange between heavy rail and subway at West Street.

With these improvements the subway will be more popular. But with the passenger capacity restricted at the.moment you wouldn't want it to be too popular. ;-)

I am impressed by the metro frequency of the low level lines through the city.

Get crosrail and all will be well in Glasgow!

What about Sheffield and Nottingham and their tram systems?

Two different regions.

Nottingham is in East Midlands

Sheffield is in Yorkshire

.... and Glasgow Volde which is the busiest , and most intense UK system outside of London. or did it just have to be in the north west.

Yes, North West.

The North West Region (Lancashire, GM, Merseyside, Cheshire, Cumbria) is now the only region outside London to have dedicated rail systems ("Metros" if you will)

The Clockwork Orange is hardly a metro system. It is a single loop using toy trains.

Ouch! :laugh:

Are you going from Piccadilly? I could be announcing your train!


I am off to London town on Wednesday, travelling on the 10.35, the firms paying so we are in First don't ya know...

I am off to London town on Wednesday, travelling on the 10.35, the firms paying so we are in First don't ya know...

I'll be sure to announce it!

I'll be sure to announce it!

Was passing through about 7:30 this morning, think I heard you making the odd announcement.

Mmmm. Don't often differ with you Motor but from the figures I saw recently Glasgow is only carrying 41,100 on the "Clockwork Orange" a day - let's hope for their sake the patronage is on the rise after the recent refits coz with 15 stations that really is quite a low number (less than 3000 a day per station - hardly the 4000 per hour that we hear is necessary for a Metro).

Our poor provincial cities - how desperately we need this economic gloom to lift
:ohno:

Yes, but I wasn't talking only about the subway. I was talking about the whole suburban network which includes the subway. Until the lines get possibly at least 5-8 miles away from the centre of Glasgow they are usually at least every 15 minutes, much more in some cases.

:lol::lol:And don't dis the subway please people.......or we will fall out...:lol: :lol::lol: It's only 6 miles long and carries about 14 million passengers a year. (That's 1 mile longer then the Eccles line and it carries not short of 3 times more passengers) Don't forget that the maximum journey is usually not more than 3 miles (10 minutes) as why would you take the long way round deliberately? And the opening hours on a sunday don't help either. 10 till 6. The shops in Glasgow can be open from 9 to 7 on sundays, the supermarkets being true 24/7. Only £1.20 a trip any distance too.

At least it works! .....ooooohhh bitch.....ahh hem ... and did do from day one! :lol:

Unless of course some don't see the suburban network as a kind of metro, but then what's a metro? (My sister used to think metrolink was good when she first visited till she got abandoned twice in places she didn't know, and quickly changed her mind) I pointed out to her that the 4 trains an hour that she gets in Hamilton is only 1 service less per hour than we have in Eccles, has a timetable, is reliable , has a heated waiting room, comfortable refurbished, clean, and not overcrowded trains, delivering a fast journey taking between 17 and 24 minutes right into the heart of the city . Then she saw she was in fact better off. But then you can't compare the journey like for like.

Is that by accident that u snapped a Metrolink employee?? :lol:

Edit: And my Metrolink insider knows who that is too!!

!No sé nada Kriis!

Thought I would have a shufty around the new improvements on the Bury line. Motor is quite right - they didn't prime the new brickwork at Crumpsalll and all the paint has peeled off - hope they get their money back and the job re-done properly!

Bowker Vale is also a compleat building site at the moment, but some of the other stations are not looking too bad :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/101_9733.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/101_9731.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/101_9710.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/101_9716.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/101_9722.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/101_9715.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/101_9724.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/101_9720.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/101_9711.jpg

I was quite impressed by the long shelter at Besses o'th'Barn - - good see-through views of the countryside (if not too much actual shelter!) :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Besses/101_9746.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Besses/101_9738.jpg

Quite a chunky lift shaft surround :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Besses/101_9737.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Besses/101_9743.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Besses/101_9744.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Besses/101_9742.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Besses/101_9740.jpg

I do think the yellow signage looks fab against a green backdrop. Woodlands Road must now be the only stop on the whole system still carrying turquoise :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Heaton%20Park/101_9709.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Woodlands%20Road/101_9751.jpg

Masses of orange hi-vis on Smedley viaduct (just missed 'em on the passing shot!) - wonder if it means something happening tomorrow??

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Queens%20Road/101_9752.jpg

Well, unless countermanded I will risk dodging the showers on Collyhurst Road overbridge tomorrow at 1030, see if anything happens . . . . .:happy::wave::shifty:

:banana:

I would guess at the busier section being fRom bridge street in the Gorbals to Partick.

If you look at Partick, that has excellent interchange. Apart from Buchanan Street and the link to Queen Street, there are limited interchange possibilities.

A tunnel is needed between St Epoch.and central station low level.

There needs to be an interchange between heavy rail and subway at West Street.

With these improvements the subway will be more popular. But with the passenger capacity restricted at the.moment you wouldn't want it to be too popular. ;-)

I am impressed by the metro frequency of the low level lines through the city.

Get crosrail and all will be well in Glasgow!

Agreed, (Gorbals?? ) you're showing your age...:lol: Hutchinson Town purlease. Yes, between there and Partick is the busiest definately... very busy.

When it was, as they say in Glasgow, "modranised" in the late 70's, the south side of the river was to be redeveloped. That didn't happen though, and building the (M78?) parallel to two of the stations wouldn't help, one of the stops being a solitary building right up againt the retaining wall of the motorway. Now a park and ride I think... Cessnock or Shields Road? As for West Street, before the revamp it was called the boneyard by the staff. How would you link it to the Ayrshire lines though as there isn't a heavy rail station there? Is there room for one and why would there be? Is there anything nearby to make it worthwhile? I don't think I ever saw anyone get on or off there. A bit like Pomona without the faredodgers. So nothing has happened.... maybe the Comonwealth games will give it a kickstart similar to what happened in Manchester. Last year I visited the new Riverside Transport Museum, hailed the ferry over and went to Govan. (I remember it as Govan Cross). What a difference. Desolate, windswept,empty and barren with hardly anyone about on a saturday afternoon. Quite sad really. Don't know what Rab C would say. The old subway got me to work every day for 3 years and will always have a warm place in my heart next to the rose tinted spectacles.:)

However, longer opening hours on a sunday would definately bring more passengers on, maybe even up to the level that Mark O has said?

A wee tune fur youse aw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_YbGldcuKQ

Wow. Bury looks great!

I ain't saying it is a legitimate claim, but please do not be naive enough to think that Thales will not have loads of ammunition for a counter claim against TfGM.

No matter what we may think, they (Thales) had no way of replicating what was on the ground when they arrived.

I've been there. I have been in Thales position. They will not be as 'guilty' in this whole shambles in their mind as many on here would think.

The general way forward is to be nice to each other until the project is finally up and running. Then everyone starts blaming everybody else, at which point the lawyers move in for the kill. Eventually, it gets sorted.

The general way forward is to be nice to each other until the project is finally up and running. Then everyone starts blaming everybody else, at which point the lawyers move in for the kill. Eventually, it gets sorted.

Depends if Thales have spent all their budget and are demanding more money to finish the job.

Bury looks miles better than it used to. Really enjoying their work there.

Yes, North West.

The North West Region (Lancashire, GM, Merseyside, Cheshire, Cumbria) is now the only region outside London to have dedicated rail systems ("Metros" if you will)

You forgot Newcastle.

Depends if Thales have spent all their budget and are demanding more money to finish the job.

Don't expect a swift end to any dispute. Look at the Cambridge guided busway, where the council earmarked £6.5 million for legal fees to tidy up who pays what to whom and when. No contract of the size of the Metrolink extension will be written in such a way that it can't be argued over.

Don't expect a swift end to any dispute. Look at the Cambridge guided busway, where the council earmarked £6.5 million for legal fees to tidy up who pays what to whom and when. No contract of the size of the Metrolink extension will be written in such a way that it can't be argued over.

It may not have gone to dispute, we don't know what is going on.

Thales and TfGM may be getting on fine and they have a good working relationship and will deliver a successful working solution in weeks.

We just don't know what the real situation is, it could be anything.

So if this TMS doesn't work, Thales get the push and someone else brings something in, although I've been told that the Pids would work with a new system, what about everything that's already in place. ie those antenna things on the lampposts. Do they get abandoned or reused? If not, do they get removed and at whose cost? If none of that, will we all have had to pay for them or would Thales take the hit so taxpayers don't lose out?

So if this TMS doesn't work, Thales get the push and someone else brings something in, although I've been told that the Pids would work with a new system, what about everything that's already in place. ie those antenna things on the lampposts. Do they get abandoned or reused? If not, do they get removed and at whose cost? If none of that, will we all have had to pay for them or would Thales take the hit so taxpayers don't lose out?

We don't and almost certainly will never ever get close to knowing.

Anyone who suggests otherwise will be making it up, very few people at Thales and TfGM will be in any such discussion if they ever happen.

Loads of Thales jobs being advertised...

http://www.indeed.co.uk/m/jobs?q=Thales&l=Bury

My bet, probably wrong, following on grim the project managers job at Christmas is a new contract has been agreed recently and Thales are re-staffing.

Worryingly, senior jobs like https://thales.taleo.net/careersection/2/jobdetail.ftl?lang=en&job=192140 seem to have been advertised since before Christmas.

Why so many senior jobs that have not been filled?

Or have they just not been taken off the Web site?

.... and Glasgow Volde which is the busiest , and most intense UK system outside of London. or did it just have to be in the north west.

Is it? I thought it only had a daily ridership of around 36,000 and about 15 stations. I'd say Newcastles Metro trumps over Glasgow, more stations and handles more than triple the amount of people. What I'd say instead its the nearest you'd get to a proper underground system outside London, infact if you take away the Underground sections on the Tyne and Wear Metro, its the only proper underground system outside London. Within the next 4 years on the whole Manchester should have the busiest light rail system of any kind of Metro or tram system outside London. Says a lot for what other cities could be doing and what else could be achieved.

I would guess at the busier section being fRom bridge street in the Gorbals to Partick.

If you look at Partick, that has excellent interchange. Apart from Buchanan Street and the link to Queen Street, there are limited interchange possibilities.

A tunnel is needed between St Epoch.and central station low level.

There needs to be an interchange between heavy rail and subway at West Street.

With these improvements the subway will be more popular. But with the passenger capacity restricted at the.moment you wouldn't want it to be too popular. ;-)

I am impressed by the metro frequency of the low level lines through the city.

Get crosrail and all will be well in Glasgow!

I beg to differ having worked in Glasgow for the past 16 years.

The Partick interchange has gone down in history as a warning of how not to construct out a bus/rail/subway interchange. It was years late and way over budget largely down to 'communication' difficulties between Strathclyde PTE and Network Rail. I think that the project was stalled part constructed for two or three years due to procedural wrangling over the interfaces.

Glasgow urgently needs a crossrail to link the South-bound services out of Central with the North, West and East-bound services out of Queen Street. This was in the capital programme but was scrapped by the SNP three or four years back.

The other urgent problem is the lack of a rail link to Glasgow Airport. This is surely a candidate for Tram-Train. But any move in this direction will be over the body of Alex Salmond. So no prospects there!

Is it? I thought it only had a daily ridership of around 36,000 and about 15 stations. I'd say Newcastles Metro trumps over Glasgow, more stations and handles more than triple the amount of people. What I'd say instead its the nearest you'd get to a proper underground system outside London, infact if you take away the Underground sections on the Tyne and Wear Metro, its the only proper underground system outside London. Within the next 4 years on the whole Manchester should have the busiest light rail system of any kind of Metro or tram system outside London. Says a lot for what other cities could be doing and what else could be achieved.

I meant the whole suburban network andy, not just the subway!.

I meant the whole suburban network andy, not just the subway!.

but thats not a dedicated light rail or metro system, its nothing more than national rail.

Mmmm. Don't often differ with you Motor but from the figures I saw recently Glasgow is only carrying 41,100 on the "Clockwork Orange" a day - let's hope for their sake the patronage is on the rise after the recent refits coz with 15 stations that really is quite a low number (less than 3000 a day per station - hardly the 4000 per hour that we hear is necessary for a Metro).

Our poor provincial cities - how desperately we need this economic gloom to lift
:ohno:

I'm probably wrong, or misunderstainding what you mean Mark. Going on the above figures does that mean if Manchester is to be considered a metro, that it doesn't have enough passengers either?

Manchester 23 miles long
20 million passengers per year.
54,795 passengers per day,
42 stops is 13,046 passengers per stop per day
Worst possible frequency 15 minutes


Glasgow 6 miles long
14 million passengers per year
38,357 passengers per day
15 stops is 25, 571 passengers per stop per day.
Worst possible frequency every 8 minutes each way round. (6 trains)

Sheffield 18 miles long

15 million passengers per year
41,095 passengers per day
48 stops is 8,562 passengers per stop per day
Worst possible frequency 20 minutes

I'm being not trying to be argumentative but am surely missing something here? Surely that makes Glasgow look pretty good for passenger numbers per stop per day? Neither by the way, am I saying that any of the others are worse. All figures came from Wikipedia.

but thats not a dedicated light rail or metro system, its nothing more than national rail.

Fair enough!

I'm probably wrong, or misunderstainding what you mean Mark. Going on the above figures does that mean if Manchester is to be considered a metro, that it doesn't have enough passengers either?

Manchester 23 miles long
20 million passengers per year.
54,795 passengers per day,
42 stops is 13,046 passengers per stop per day

Glasgow 6 miles long
14 million passengers per year
38,357 passengers per day
15 stops is 25, 571 passengers per stop per day.

Sheffield 18 miles long
15 million passengers per year
41,095 passengers per day
48 stops is 8,562 passengers per stop per day


You could well be right Motor - but I don't fully understand your maths - I could just be being dim (I'm quite well known for it)
54,795 divided by 42 doesn't make 13,046 unless you have a very wonky calculator with the buttons falling off!
It's 1,304 per stop per day surely for Manchester?

Equally
Glasgow: 2,557 per stop per day
Sheffield: 856 "

Still means Glasgow is doing better than Manch but my money would be on increasing the numbers quite substantially for Manch after BB. Possibly overtaking the number of passengers per stop per day - although Glasgow should be higher as it will never go beyond 15 stops so the average will be dispersed in Manch with its planned 99 stops (and after all Glasgow is a heavy rapid transit line so really should be busier).

Surely one of the benefits of light rail over underground is the higher number of stops, delivering the passengers closer to their ultimate destination, lowering the average passenger number per stop?

You could well be right Motor - but I don't fully understand your maths - I could just be being dim (I'm quite well known for it)
54,795 divided by 42 doesn't make 13,046 unless you have a very wonky calculator with the buttons falling off!
It's 1,304 per stop per day surely for Manchester?

Equally
Glasgow: 2,557 per stop per day
Sheffield: 856 "

Still means Glasgow is doing better than Manch but my money would be on increasing the numbers quite substantially for Manch after BB. Possibly overtaking the number of passengers per stop per day - although Glasgow should be higher as it will never go beyond 15 stops so the average will be dispersed in Manch with its planned 99 stops (and after all Glasgow is a heavy rapid transit line so really should be busier).

You're right, I had the point(.) in the wrong place. Actually, being a calculator mistruster until the same answer comes out 3 times in a row, I never use points at all. So the figures have come down for all of them, but just a bit moved over if you know what I mean. Thanks. Glasgow will never extend, IMO, due to it's size and comfort if it had to go longer distances between stops. It's absolutely perfect for the job it does now though. The only way for passenegr numbers to increase would be to extend the opening hours, especially on sundays, and to build up the south side of the river and not just with park and rides which offer limied increases. And nobody could ever complain about the £1.20 fare, so any decrease won't bring new riders on. We'll see what happens with the Commonwealth Games. The south side is ripe for redevelpoment and the infrastructure is already in place. I believe at one time the subway used to carry over 34 million passengers a year when the shipyards were all in action round Govan.

Isn't it the case that the stops on the Glasgow subway are exactly the same distance apart due to in the early days the trains were tugged around by a cable, all connected.

When one train was in a station they all were, when one was in a tunnel they all were.

It is incredibly close to the surface as well.

When working in Glasgow many years ago, on an IT project, one of our contractors putting fibre across Buchanan St ended up digging into one of the tunnels by accident.

Surely one of the benefits of light rail over underground is the higher number of stops, delivering the passengers closer to their ultimate destination, lowering the average passenger number per stop?

It is these days Cats, but the subway was opened 117 years ago and can't really be compared to any other underground system even at that time, or what came after. It's probably unique in the world. Have you ever been on it? There are about 3 stops every mile ( 6 miles, 15 stops) and were basic to say the least and apart from a few, mainly on the north side, the others in the south side being one staircase from the surface usually leading straight out onto the street. And nothing could have been faster at that time even though they were cable hauled. It won't be extended, only ever refurbished.
And of course most places already had extensive light rail in place... the trams! The old ones count as light rail presumably? If it does in Melbourne with much smaller vehicles then why not?

Manchester 23 miles long
20 million passengers per year.
54,795 passengers per day,
42 stops is 13,046 passengers per stop per day
Worst possible frequency 15 minutes


I'm not sure that average passengers per stop is relevant; Pamona must have single figure passengers per day!

Isn't it the case that the stops on the Glasgow subway are exactly the same distance apart due to in the early days the trains were tugged around by a cable, all connected.

When one train was in a station they all were, when one was in a tunnel they all were.

It is incredibly close to the surface as well.

When working in Glasgow many years ago, on an IT project, one of our contractors putting fibre across Buchanan St ended up digging into one of the tunnels by accident.

They are a similar distance apart, but not exactly the same. The trains used to have "grippers" where the driver used to attach and detach the train at stations. That was the reason why the stations were humped (and not like they later became, to save electricity.) He could detach from the rope entering the station, let the train coast in the use then brake to stop it, similar, the exit being downhill let him coast out gaining speed then slowly gripping onto the rope, so it wasn't so "violent" .A train couldn't leave the station till the train in front had left that station and this was done by the station masters using the telephone at the end of the platform. No signals!

And your mate must have been digging well down under the ground as Buchanan Street is the deepest of the lot..:lol:.

If you're interested in how the control room and signals work these days I found this video on youtube last night. The control room looks very relaxed, but then the system runs itsself. 1 fatality in 37 years too. Impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks_B_eysOEk

I'm not sure that average passengers per stop is relevant; Pamona must have single figure passengers per day!

Do you mean per year really? Apart from fare dodgers that is. And we will never know, how can we as there is nobody there to count them?...:lol:

Never been on the Glasgow underground.

Just seen the result of a BT engineer digging in through the roof in the mid 90s.

Surely some of the Manchester Metrolink figures are wrong. Doesn't the 54,000 a day figure exclude the four new stations that have opened at mediacity and on the Chorlton line. So it will only the existing 38 stations. With mediacity and the other three new stops it should be higher.

Surely some of the Manchester Metrolink figures are wrong. Doesn't the 54,000 a day figure exclude the four new stations that have opened at mediacity and on the Chorlton line. So it will only the existing 38 stations. With mediacity and the other three new stops it should be higher.

I got that from Wikipedia and it says the figures were as at July 2011. It stated the stations as 42, although Chorlton had just opened then, there would be no figures for those stops. We were only number crunching anyway.

Presumably the passenger figures will be released soon, and also be good to see how many passengers a year are now using the Eccles and mediacity lines now, as apart from evenings with the unattractive service it always seems very busy now. Although maybe not as good altogether as there have been so many weekend closures over the last year on all the lines,the figures may not give an accurate account as many don't want to use the buses and make other arrangements. The 55 minute trip to Eccles isn't much of an incentive, possibly why it only goes as far as Trafford Bar, again making it unnattractive.

Isn't it the case that the stops on the Glasgow subway are exactly the same distance apart due to in the early days the trains were tugged around by a cable, all connected.

When one train was in a station they all were, when one was in a tunnel they all were.

It is incredibly close to the surface as well.

When working in Glasgow many years ago, on an IT project, one of our contractors putting fibre across Buchanan St ended up digging into one of the tunnels by accident.

I think you are right particularly about the cable traction

Hi All

Good news everyone I just seen a tram on the Oldham line heading off to Mumps, hopely that mean driving training have begin of six weeks:), I'll try and get a picture of it if I see it coming back down the Oldham line

EDIT: someone take Johnny to give himself down to Oldham line as he might see it.

:banana:

Loads of Thales jobs being advertised...

http://www.indeed.co.uk/m/jobs?q=Thales&l=Bury

My bet, probably wrong, following on grim the project managers job at Christmas is a new contract has been agreed recently and Thales are re-staffing.This one could be a bit of a giveaway, posted yesterday. Note the references to a 'revised baseline' and 'significant scope, budget and schedule changes'...

https://thales.taleo.net/careersection/2/jobdetail.ftl?lang=en&job=1200168
LEAD PLANNER - TRAM MANAGEMENT SYSTEM - 1200168
Regular Employment - Full-time
Job Family 03 - Bid and Programme
Primary Location UK-North West-Cheadle
Organization Thales UK

Job Posting 23-Apr-2012, 3:46:04 PM
Unposting Date Ongoing



TRAM MANAGEMENT SYSTEM – LEAD PLANNER

PROJECT SUMMARY:
The Tram Management Systems (TMS) project is a contract within the overall Manchester Metrolink Extension Programme and provides the control systems and elements of the communications and Customer Information System network for the existing and new Metrolink lines.

JOB PURPOSE AND SCOPE:
A number of significant scope, budget and schedule changes are currently being reflected in a revised baseline for the project. The Lead Planner will establish, maintain and update the suite of resource loaded schedules that are used for internal and external management. In addition the Lead Planner will provide expertise, guidance and advice in the use of Primavera (P3E) to the broader project and domain communities.

KEY OBJECTIVES AND TASKS:
Creation and maintenance of a suite of resource and cost loaded P3E programmes in line with company and customer standards. Ensuring that all plans are created, maintained, reviewed and updated at the required frequency and that all Work Packages are clearly identified and defined.
Consolidation of actual cost and achievement data to provide Earned Value Management reports to support Control Account Management.
Undertake periodic reporting in line with customer/contractual needs and corporate/functional requirements, including provision of data and reports on KPIs, resource utilisation, project progress, forecasts, critical paths etc. for inclusion in consolidated reporting.
Provide support to the schedule evaluation of change requests.
Provide advice and guidance to the project on the construction and structure of Project plans and the associated Work Breakdown structures and Work Package Definitions.
Conduct training and coaching as appropriate in the use of P3E to the project and domain communities to develop an in-house scheduling / planning capability
PERSON SPECIFICATION

Work Experience, Skills and Knowledge
Essential:
Must have in depth working experience of P3e
Practical experience of structured planning within a medium to large organisation. Understanding of planning techniques. Application of critical path analysis, work breakdown structures etc…
Excellent understanding of resource control, cost monitoring and control techniques, including earned value.
Highly computer literate.
Must have commercial awareness and an understanding of how conditions of contract are applied.
Experience of Progress Reporting and KPI Production
Desirable:
Some knowledge of the Thales Dashboard reporting suite.
Knowledge of Oracle systems
Risk analysis tools such as Pertmaster
QUALITIES, ABILITIES AND APTITUDES

Essential qualities
Self motivated, innovative and willing to exercise initiative.
Team member - working proactively to team goals.
Willingness to learn new tools and practices
Share knowledge
Open and honest
Friendly, outgoing and will-do attitude
SECURITY CLEARANCE
Baseline Standard Security Clearance will be required. This will be arranged by Thales

This one could be a bit of a giveaway, posted yesterday. Note the references to a 'revised baseline' and 'significant scope, budget and schedule changes'...

https://thales.taleo.net/careersection/2/jobdetail.ftl?lang=en&job=1200168


So it begins. Rescoping.

So it begins. Rescoping.

I suspect it began a while back - re-scoping is the "Get Out of Jail Free" card!

Wonder what happened to the previous incumbent :nuts:

I'm guessing, just guessing, reduced budget, reduced scope and longer schedule in what must amount to a new deal between Thales and TfGM.

Putting 2 and 2 together and no doubt getting a grey swan, I reckon when Purdy last month talked about having confidence that it would work and suggesting the politics was his biggest concern now, that Thales now have a working solution, however, to delievr what was originally asked for is going to cost them / TfGM a shed load more money as such the contract is / has been re-written to a lower specification over a longer period. Presumably as so much has been spent getting to this point, the budget is also half used up.

The tram that been up on the Oldham line today was 3014 tram and also seen 3017 tram too, I try to get picture of trams on the Oldham line but I keep miss it but I try tomorrow.

:banana:

The tram that been up on the Oldham line today was 3014 tram and also seen 3017 tram too, I try to get picture of trams on the Oldham line but I keep miss it but I try tomorrow.

:banana:

Yes plenty of testing going on today, my garden comes right upto the line, so much quieter than the trains were!

I suspect it began a while back - re-scoping is the "Get Out of Jail Free" card!

Wonder what happened to the previous incumbent :nuts:

I suspect that the rescoping is done on paper and now it's about installing it.

The tram that been up on the Oldham line today was 3014 tram and also seen 3017 tram too, I try to get picture of trams on the Oldham line but I keep miss it but I try tomorrow.

:banana:

Good news then!

Yes plenty of testing going on today, my garden comes right upto the line, so much quieter than the trains were!


Not sure you can get much noisier than those Pacers. I used to hear them in Shaw, from a few hundred metres away with the windows closed!

I'm guessing, just guessing, reduced budget, reduced scope and longer schedule in what must amount to a new deal between Thales and TfGM.

Putting 2 and 2 together and no doubt getting a grey swan, I reckon when Purdy last month talked about having confidence that it would work and suggesting the politics was his biggest concern now, that Thales now have a working solution, however, to delievr what was originally asked for is going to cost them / TfGM a shed load more money as such the contract is / has been re-written to a lower specification over a longer period. Presumably as so much has been spent getting to this point, the budget is also half used up.

The 'fudge' to get the ORL working is in essence a change of scope, I'm not really concerned by change.

I got that from Wikipedia and it says the figures were as at July 2011. It stated the stations as 42, although Chorlton had just opened then, there would be no figures for those stops. We were only number crunching anyway.

Presumably the passenger figures will be released soon, and also be good to see how many passengers a year are now using the Eccles and mediacity lines now, as apart from evenings with the unattractive service it always seems very busy now. Although maybe not as good altogether as there have been so many weekend closures over the last year on all the lines,the figures may not give an accurate account as many don't want to use the buses and make other arrangements. The 55 minute trip to Eccles isn't much of an incentive, possibly why it only goes as far as Trafford Bar, again making it unnattractive.

I saw that but didn't look into the data. Just the 54,000 for 2009/2010 and then it has 42 stations for July 2011. I have a feeling it might take another year for the full figures to come through but I reckon over the last six months MediaCity has seen a huge increase in passenger numbers with more people moving there which should only keep rising. Not so sure the Chorlton section will see that sort of increase until the Airport and extension to East Didsbury is complete.

The 'fudge' to get the ORL working is in essence a change of scope, I'm not really concerned by change.

Aye, but long term they still need to deliver a TMS system that will not be based on block signalling.

Yes plenty of testing going on today, my garden comes right upto the line, so much quieter than the trains were!

Did wonder whether the testing would start today. Noticed a couple of people in fluorescent jackets standing around at Freehold stop yesterday evening at around 6pm as I went past on the 419. Not sure whether they were there for though.

Aye, but long term they still need to deliver a TMS system that will not be based on block signalling.

Why do you believe that? (seriously asking why you are thinking this way not trying to create an argument/trolling)

Why do you believe that? (seriously asking why you are thinking this way not trying to create an argument/trolling)

Surely because a block system will simply not be able to cope with the number of trams as extensions start to open? After all it's the reason they had to halve the frequency on the Chorlton line is it not..?

Why do you believe that? (seriously asking why you are thinking this way not trying to create an argument/trolling)

The whole operating plan for the combined network is based on Line of Sight operation. As Martin says block signalling will not provide sufficient capacity. In addition ORR (HMRI) have indicated that a mix of block signalling and line of sight is no longer considered satisfactory.

Why do you believe that? (seriously asking why you are thinking this way not trying to create an argument/trolling)

As mentioned above, we need to get about 50tph down Cornbrook bridge, block signalling ain't going to allow that.

Surely because a block system will simply not be able to cope with the number of trams as extensions start to open? After all it's the reason they had to halve the frequency on the Chorlton line is it not..?



The whole operating plan for the combined network is based on Line of Sight operation. As Martin says block signalling will not provide sufficient capacity. In addition ORR (HMRI) have indicated that a mix of block signalling and line of sight is no longer considered satisfactory.



As mentioned above, we need to get about 50tph down Cornbrook bridge, block signalling ain't going to allow that.

I don't buy that it can't cope with that amount of trams. Seeing as my lot have 32tph using a flat junction with longer trains (means signalling sections are occupied for longer) on a flat junction I can't see Metrolink can't cope with this. Especially as long term the major junctions allow for extra trams with St Peters Square dual track before the lines cross and Cornbrook being grade separated. Yes it creates a pinch point but I don't see why it cannot cope with the proposed Metrolink service.

However Freel point of ORR and HMRI (or whatever they are called now they are part of the DfT) not liking the mix is important. But have you any information on the alternate solution? Because what I've heard could be interesting on that comment.

Do you use the Alty, Chortlon or Eccles line very much?

All the time there are delays with the service as it is, the Alty tram always seems to wait for a Chorlton tram to clear the block in front and likewise then again near Cornbrook.

I would suggest that we are at the limit of what block signalling will give us over the SML/Alty/Eccles junctions in such close proximity.

We certaintly would see massive delays with the SML up to 10tph, the airport at 10tph and a Salford Port line at 5tph.

There would be grid lock between Old Trafford and Cornbrook.

Of course whether you remove all signals or not, you will still have trams waiting at the new TMS style signals on the flat junctions such as Irk Valley, Airport junction etc. I still dont see a problem with leaving the current set up as is, while removing all the other signals. TMS can work around with out blowing its mind trying to work the points and signals HM inspectorate ruling or not.

Hi All

Good news everyone I just seen a tram on the Oldham line heading off to Mumps, hopely that mean driving training have begin of six weeks:), I'll try and get a picture of it if I see it coming back down the Oldham line

EDIT: someone take Johnny to give himself down to Oldham line as he might see it.

:banana:

Well ro2, I guess I've given myself down to worse places than that in the past!! :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

As a matter of fact, I gave myself down to the bloody Oldham line for two hours this very morning, quite nice weather but obviously too early and I saw c*ck all! However, I ended up walking it from Smedley viaduct as far as Dean Lane, and got some snaps of the new totem flags & signage all the new stations have now.

ro2, did you happen to notice the approximate frequency of the training vehicles ? I will try again tomorrow although the forecast is p***issing down and high wind!! Useful to have a rough idea of how long one might have to wait . . .

Here's the pix I took to-day. Plenty of orange hi-vis activity on the viaduct, but no bananas this morning! :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Queens%20Road/101_9782.jpg

Except on the Bury line :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Queens%20Road/101_9779.jpg

Monsall now has TWO totems :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9788.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9789.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9794.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9804.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9814.jpg

I like Monsall :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9798.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9802.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9809.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9799.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9796.jpg

I also like the shape of these portals - like part of a 50p or a equilateral curve heptagon :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9812.jpg

Central Park also now has a totem, but at the lower level :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/101_9822.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/101_9824.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/101_9825.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/101_9821.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/101_9817.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/101_9818.jpg

The totem can't be seen from Oldham Road, until you are part way down the dip :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/101_9827.jpg

Newton Heath & Moston :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9831.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9829.jpg

The Railway Hotel will soon have a railway once again . . .

:banana:

Yes, but at the moment we wait for huge sections of track to clear. Why not have two trams in Trafford Bar at the same time, one from Alty the other from Chorlton heading into town?

Likewise, there is a very long wait at Cornbrook as the tram needs to get almost to Deansgate before the next tram can even enter Cornbrook.

P.S. If is was a case that they could simply strip out all but the junction signals don't you think that will have already happened by now?

I have no idea LNG, Im sure it will all work out well in the end :)

Hey Johnny, think I just noticed something on your photo of Dean Lane. My eyes might be playing tricks but those brown boxes under the shelter, two covered over ticket machines??

But have you any information on the alternate solution? Because what I've heard could be interesting on that comment.

C'mon Mack what have you heard! :)

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Burry/Queens%20Road/101_9782.jpg


:banana:

What is all that spare rail for?

I have no idea LNG, Im sure it will all work out well in the end :)

Hey Johnny, think I just noticed something on your photo of Dean Lane. My eyes might be playing tricks but those brown boxes under the shelter, two covered over ticket machines??

I'd suspect so, I've been going past Dean Lane or Newton Heath & Moston for some time now, it's been 'ready' to go for weeks now.

Fantastic pictures!! You might want to repost them on this page though so that everyone can see :)

In this picture ... is that, no surely, is that a pair of ticket machines on the platform?! :D

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9831.jpg

What is all that spare rail for?

HS2:cheers:

Its certainly been a long time coming! Apologiesforthedelay, I think the rails are being bolted down the middle to keep the trams (if a derailment was to occur) from crashing off the side of the viaduct, same they have done on the high level Bury line.

Aye, them's ticket machines, make no mistake! June is now looking like a very reasonable estimate.

For comparison's sake, I found shots I took of Chorlton dating as late as June 1st last year, with no ticket machines in sight - they were installed about a month before opening. Fingers crossed...

Regarding block signalling - in its present form it cannot stay, and the junction at Trafford Bar serves as a fitting example. The blocks are too large, but I presume that for safety purposes they have to be. The TMS signal mounts for inbound trams south of Trafford Bar lie just a couple of metres before the junction - presumably a waiting tram would be given the clear aspect as soon as the tram with priority has passed, and probably before it has even come to a halt at Trafford Bar.

Excellent shots btw :)

R.e. Cornbrook, I thought it was because the junctions on the slope, wouldnt want them stopping there awaiting a signal so its further back than it would be if it was a flat junction.

Do you use the Alty, Chortlon or Eccles line very much?

All the time there are delays with the service as it is, the Alty tram always seems to wait for a Chorlton tram to clear the block in front and likewise then again near Cornbrook.

I would suggest that we are at the limit of what block signalling will give us over the SML/Alty/Eccles junctions in such close proximity.

We certaintly would see massive delays with the SML up to 10tph, the airport at 10tph and a Salford Port line at 5tph.

There would be grid lock between Old Trafford and Cornbrook.

Sorry but a bodged up mix of TMS and block signalling that wasn't planed isn't not an acceptable example of what signalling can do. It's an temporary measure that proves a solution, not a proper one however.

Yes, but at the moment we wait for huge sections of track to clear. Why not have two trams in Trafford Bar at the same time, one from Alty the other from Chorlton heading into town?

Likewise, there is a very long wait at Cornbrook as the tram needs to get almost to Deansgate before the next tram can even enter Cornbrook.

Cats I work on a line that's makes Metrolink look simple and I'm in the signal box where 48tph mix and conflict yet it works and can work without delays. You also failed to see one of my other point, sections. Metrolink is simply shorter than mainline trains, even with double units. Therefore you can have short sections allowing trams to get close. For example in the Thameslink Core where they want to run a hell of a lot of longer trains you get signals every 100m, that's big enough for a triple tram. Change the sections to short ones and bang there's your answer.



C'mon Mack what have you heard! :)

Can't say everything but between what I've heard and what I know for work, I know of the alternative soluation. Just not 100% sure it's fully correct but Cats doesn't like it.

Does anyone buy Tramways and Urban Transit? There's an extra brochure in it this month about Croydon Tramlink.

They are replacing their TMS as it is unreliable and causes delays. It's being fitted whilst the system is running. Siemens is fitting it. So we're not alone!

Does anyone buy Tramways and Urban Transit? There's an extra brochure in it this month about Croydon Tramlink.

They are replacing their TMS as it is unreliable and causes delays. It's being fitted whilst the system is running. Siemens is fitting it. So we're not alone!

I've got that in my bag to read, should make a good read.

Interesting they found that.

Their system was a simpler setup that allowed single direction single line running, however their planning to double some track as part of the service upgrades and so their signalling system would be unable to cope with bidirectional single line traffic.

Regarding testing on Oldham line I saw a tram at Dean Lane Station at about 18:00 last night as I was on my way home on First Manchester's X82 Piccadilly-Milnrow service, didn't see which way it was heading though unfortunately as the bus I was on was a single decker

Can't say everything but between what I've heard and what I know for work, I know of the alternative soluation. Just not 100% sure it's fully correct but Cats doesn't like it.

Wouldn't involve block signalling would it..? ;-)

I won't mind what it is made up of as long as we get the required throughput of trams and the information back to the drivers and customers about when the next train is due.

Accurately.

Its certainly been a long time coming! Apologiesforthedelay, I think the rails are being bolted down the middle to keep the trams (if a derailment was to occur) from crashing off the side of the viaduct, same they have done on the high level Bury line.

Oh right. I presumed they would have already fitted all that.

If we do get block signalling, will all the M5000s not have redundant equipment in them that was designed for TMS that will never be used and they will all require retro-fitting with kit for the block signalling?

As I say, if it works I don't mind.

But as figures of £50k / tram and 100 odd trams is being talked about here this is a huge amount of potential wasted money.

Wouldn't involve block signalling would it..? ;-)

Haha, I hate teasing.

I won't mind what it is made up of as long as we get the required throughput of trams and the information back to the drivers and customers about when the next train is due.

Accurately.

Considering modern technology, predicting next train isn't a black art. Although people need to realise its not a crystal ball and it may be off a few mins (ie heavy loads will affect things).

If we do get block signalling, will all the M5000s not have redundant equipment in them that was designed for TMS that will never be used and they will all require retro-fitting with kit for the block signalling?

As I say, if it works I don't mind.

But as figures of £50k / tram and 100 odd trams is being talked about here this is a huge amount of potential wasted money.

Considering trams up to 3042 are already planned to work with the old signalling your actually talking about 32 additions to sort. The final T68 replacement trams can be delivered with equipment installed like the first 12. Hell if TfGM act quickly, we could find trams from 3060 delivered with equipment installed and the signalling equipment taken off the T68's would mean pretty much little extra money would be involved.

3001-3012 - can with old signalling
3013-3021/23/25 - old gear installed
3022/24/26-3030 - due to get old gear installed (13 extra trams mentioned)
3031-3042 - getting the withdrawn 12 T68's equipment
3042-3062 - now up to 3062 delivered
3063-3074 - first T68's replacement, old gear can be added to order

Any order for future T68's can be ordered with old gear installed over TMS as its already designed into the M5000.

I think the above tram numbers are correct but not 100% sure on the numbers done for Chorlton.

Considering modern technology, predicting next train isn't a black art. Although people need to realise its not a crystal ball and it may be off a few mins (ie heavy loads will affect things).



Pretty sure we were promised Real-Time info for the PID's. Otherwise what is the point if it isn't going to be accurate?

Pretty sure we were promised Real-Time info for the PID's. Otherwise what is the point if it isn't going to be accurate?

Real time is never real time. Say you have 4mins until your tram, if it's delayed by traffic or passenger issue you may have to wait 6+ mins which people will see as false information.

However for Metrolink it'll be a step up.

this being the case, how long would we expect it to take to get this out and about on the major junctions?

Also, I am slightly confused. Presumably not putting block signalling on stretches such as EML, Eccles etc?

So, does it come out everywhere other than on junctions? Will the Alty line be signal free from OT depot to Timperley?

If so, how do the control room / PIDs know where the trams are between OT and Timperley?

For example, presumably there is to be no junctions between Dean Lane single track and Oldham town centre - quite some way.

Are we seriously suggesting the PIDs will be remotely accurate over that kind of distance given all the various issues that can arise?

Sorry but a bodged up mix of TMS and block signalling that wasn't planed isn't not an acceptable example of what signalling can do. It's an temporary measure that proves a solution, not a proper one however.



Cats I work on a line that's makes Metrolink look simple and I'm in the signal box where 48tph mix and conflict yet it works and can work without delays. You also failed to see one of my other point, sections. Metrolink is simply shorter than mainline trains, even with double units. Therefore you can have short sections allowing trams to get close. For example in the Thameslink Core where they want to run a hell of a lot of longer trains you get signals every 100m, that's big enough for a triple tram. Change the sections to short ones and bang there's your answer.



Can't say everything but between what I've heard and what I know for work, I know of the alternative soluation. Just not 100% sure it's fully correct but Cats doesn't like it.

Your post point by point.

The mix of block signalling and line of sight (TMS can include block signalling and line of sight if necessary) was never intended where it has been implemented it is a temporary solution to get things running.

you miss the point here totally. The current Metrolink block signalling cannot cope with the throughput. Its best theoretical headway is 2 minutes between Trafford Bar and Deansage Castlefield and Victoria and Queens Road. That was calculated before the two new junctions were installed. Practical headways will be longer particularly now that Irk Valley and Trafford Bar are junctions. Yes block signalling can provide very short headways but it is specifically designed for the purpose. The ideal is moving block as used on DLR and HS1. To apply such short headways to Metrolink would have required a full resignalling. The capital cost of that may well be possible to support in London but not in the real world. Given the drive to line of sight which can provide even shorter headways that was never on the cards.

As far as an alternative system is concerned lets hope there is never a need to go that route as any change to the system now will result in long commissioning delays.

For example, presumably there is to be no junctions between Dean Lane single track and Oldham town centre - quite some way.

Are we seriously suggesting the PIDs will be remotely accurate over that kind of distance given all the various issues that can arise?

Under TMS there will be plenty of detection loops to locate trams. They work so once sufficient are up and running PIDS will work.

Despite what Mac says I very much doubt any alternative will involve block signalling. Oldham will open (when it does) with a South Manchester type solution using TMS supported by a modified block system at Irk Valley and some form of bespoke single line set up at Dean Lane.

Under TMS there will be plenty of detection loops to locate trams. They work so once sufficient are up and running PIDS will work.

Despite what Mac says I very much doubt any alternative will involve block signalling. Oldham will open (when it does) with a South Manchester type solution using TMS supported by a modified block system at Irk Valley and some form of bespoke single line set up at Dean Lane.

Kind of what I was thinking from my ignorant position.

On these matters I await the postings from yourself and a couple of others who clearly have a very good understanding of the issues at hand.

Well ro2, I guess I've given myself down to worse places than that in the past!! :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

As a matter of fact, I gave myself down to the bloody Oldham line for two hours this very morning, quite nice weather but obviously too early and I saw c*ck all! However, I ended up walking it from Smedley viaduct as far as Dean Lane, and got some snaps of the new totem flags & signage all the new stations have now.

ro2, did you happen to notice the approximate frequency of the training vehicles ? I will try again tomorrow although the forecast is p***issing down and high wind!! Useful to have a rough idea of how long one might have to wait . . .

Here's the pix I took to-day. Plenty of orange hi-vis activity on the viaduct, but no bananas this morning! :-


http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Monsall/101_9789.jpg

Newton Heath & Moston :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9831.jpg

:banana:

Hi All

Good picture of first bit of Oldham line Johnny:cheers:, Also Johnny if u was on the Oldham line yesterday morning then sadly u will't seen a tram as first tram I saw was about 2ish, Also I think they are ticket machines at Dean Lane and at Monsall too, they look same as the did on the Chorlton line when the start putting them in.

ro2, did you happen to notice the approximate frequency of the training vehicles ?[/

^^^^ The where quite frequently when I saw them Johnny the both near each other when they past my house yesterday.

Also tram are testing the Oldham line again today as I seen three tram already going up to Mumps and back, it hard to tell but it look like the same two from yesterday (3014 & 3017) but I'm unsure about the other tram.

Despite what Mac says I very much doubt any alternative will involve block signalling. Oldham will open (when it does) with a South Manchester type solution using TMS supported by a modified block system at Irk Valley and some form of bespoke single line set up at Dean Lane.

I agree.

I think someone along the way has got their wires crossed.

......and some form of bespoke single line set up at Dean Lane.

Signalboxes with tokens handed to tram drivers:nuts:

I agree.

I think someone along the way has got their wires crossed.

Presumably, the block signalling for the junctions is only a short term solution?

Presumably, the longer term plan is still for a 'Thales TMS' to be used to manage the junctions?

Or has someone heard something else?

I thought the problem was not with the TMS, but with the interface between TMS and the old block signalling. Isn't Chorlton actually running on TMS? If so, where is the interface between the two systems?

Therefore, isn't there a possibility that Dean Lane will be controlled by a finished TMS system, with the interface between the two systems being somewhere between there and the turn out from the Bury line?

Real time is never real time. Say you have 4mins until your tram, if it's delayed by traffic or passenger issue you may have to wait 6+ mins which people will see as false information.

However for Metrolink it'll be a step up.

I don't think anyone would expect it to predict the future perfectly, but what would be nice is to have some system which (a) knows where all the trams currently are (b) uses that information to calculate their most likely location in the future and (c) displays the appropriate arrival time on the PIDs. I suppose the system could be made better by incorporating other information like how many passengers are waiting to get on the tram at the previous stop and local traffic conditions so that can be taken into account as well.

I thought TMS was not functioning correctly on the Firswood depot / SML line where there is no old signals to interact with?

As such, they could not even get TMS working in isolation in the depot, or connecting the depot to a line operating on TMS.

this being the case, how long would we expect it to take to get this out and about on the major junctions?

Also, I am slightly confused. Presumably not putting block signalling on stretches such as EML, Eccles etc?

So, does it come out everywhere other than on junctions? Will the Alty line be signal free from OT depot to Timperley?

If so, how do the control room / PIDs know where the trams are between OT and Timperley?

No, street running sections can do line of sight like now. as for anything else, as I say below, I haven't suggested the block working, but questioned you over block work and capacity, a completely different thing.



Your post point by point.

The mix of block signalling and line of sight (TMS can include block signalling and line of sight if necessary) was never intended where it has been implemented it is a temporary solution to get things running.

you miss the point here totally. The current Metrolink block signalling cannot cope with the throughput. Its best theoretical headway is 2 minutes between Trafford Bar and Deansage Castlefield and Victoria and Queens Road. That was calculated before the two new junctions were installed. Practical headways will be longer particularly now that Irk Valley and Trafford Bar are junctions. Yes block signalling can provide very short headways but it is specifically designed for the purpose. The ideal is moving block as used on DLR and HS1. To apply such short headways to Metrolink would have required a full resignalling. The capital cost of that may well be possible to support in London but not in the real world. Given the drive to line of sight which can provide even shorter headways that was never on the cards.

As far as an alternative system is concerned lets hope there is never a need to go that route as any change to the system now will result in long commissioning delays.

Who said anything about the current signalling set up. I was referring to block signalling in general. And yes it wouldn't be cheap (both in installation and maintenance costs).

As for never on the cards, maybe not but seeing as clearly Thales and their TMS solution has failed to deliver, how long are both parties will put time and money down the drain for? Seems TfGM is starting to think they need to look elsewhere. It may only be for a short time to give Thales time to fix they need for TMS.



Under TMS there will be plenty of detection loops to locate trams. They work so once sufficient are up and running PIDS will work.

Despite what Mac says I very much doubt any alternative will involve block signalling. Oldham will open (when it does) with a South Manchester type solution using TMS supported by a modified block system at Irk Valley and some form of bespoke single line set up at Dean Lane.

Can I point I have never stated block signalling will be involved. Look back at my posts. What I did was question Cat on why he thinks block signalling can't provide the desired frequencies.

Note as well detection loops aren't need for real time tram locations so PID's don't have need them. There are off the shelf solutions to real time tracking of units.

I don't think anyone would expect it to predict the future perfectly, but what would be nice is to have some system which (a) knows where all the trams currently are (b) uses that information to calculate their most likely location in the future and (c) displays the appropriate arrival time on the PIDs. I suppose the system could be made better by incorporating other information like how many passengers are waiting to get on the tram at the previous stop and local traffic conditions so that can be taken into account as well.

Completely agree. With the long street running sections the PID's will never be 100% right. This is what I was trying to get at.

One of the biggest complaints in London is they fact they aren't 100% right all the time. People seriously expect the train will arrive when it says on the boards despite the fact the boards can't always know the train/tram is going to be late.

I thought TMS was not functioning correctly on the Firswood depot / SML line where there is no old signals to interact with?

As such, they could not even get TMS working in isolation in the depot, or connecting the depot to a line operating on TMS.

It's not Cats. That's the problem. It's not working correctly 100% of the time at junctions (I believe) so until its proven they won't unleash it on the wider network.

So what would be the plan for the Alty / Bury lines?

Removal of the existing signalling?

What about south of Timperley?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are suggesting may be implemented here.

Is it a short term fix?

A totally ripped out and new system partially based on block signals on junctions?

So what would be the plan for the Alty / Bury lines?

Removal of the existing signalling?

What about south of Timperley?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are suggesting may be implemented here.

Is it a short term fix?

A totally ripped out and new system partially based on block signals on junctions?

Cats, I assume your talking to me? Read my posts again as I have never stated what the alternate plan is. I have just questioned your view on block signalling.

Gotcha!!

You wait for eight years on Thorpes Bridge in the wind and rain, then three bananas come at once!!! . . . . . :banana::banana::banana:

First a couple of Class 37s to whet us appetite :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/101_9836.jpg

Then all of a sudden they're coming round the mountain when they come :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/premier.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/secondo.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/tertiary.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/zuadri.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/premcrop.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/terdrop.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/zuadrop.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/zwquincrop.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/101_9842.jpg

Meanwhile, over at Dean Lane, I couldn't help noticing that the signals were now on, governing the single line section . . . . .

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/101_9835.jpg

:banana::banana::banana:

Well, that was a defining moment for me!! When I first saw that gorgeous lump of concrete eight years ago, I said to myself - one day, one day . . . . . and to-day that day finally arrived!!!

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/xcrop.jpg

:banana::banana::banana: :cheers::cheers::cheers:

Gotcha!!

You wait for eight years on Thorpes Bridge in the wind and rain, then three bananas come at once!!! . . . . . :banana::banana::banana:

First a couple of Deltics to whet us appetite :-

Then all of a sudden they're coming round the mountain when they come :-

Meanwhile, over at Dean Lane, I couldn't help noticing that the signals were now on, governing the single line section . . . . .

:banana::banana::banana:

Nice one Johnny! A step forward in the right direction. Seems The handover went well unless this is a proving test?

What were the three trams being used please Johnny?

Cats, I assume your talking to me? Read my posts again as I have never stated what the alternate plan is. I have just questioned your view on block signalling.

What view?

That as it stands (as Freel said) you can only get 30 tph down Cornbrook as an absolute maximum and we are at the limit today with delays already with the current setup?

Again, I think you are not reading my posts.

I have no issue with what technology is used.

I just don't want to see a substandard result for the customers.

If we can get 90tph with block signals, if we can get accurate information to customers and the control room I really don't mind if carrier pidgeons are used.

It's just it is clear that the block signalling we have today is no where near coping with what is required.

Those are Class 37's Johnny =)

Fantastic shots of the trams on the finback Johnny!!! How fast were they taking that bridge? At a crawl or a decent lick?

I've had this back from TfGM when I asked for map of the Trafford Centre line that's clearer than the current map and shows what roads it goes down and what the exercise of option 3b is....

REFUSAL UNDER SECTION 17 FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT 2000

Thank you for your email dated 12 April 2012 where you requested the information as per below.

Information requested: “The TfGM committee Capital Projects and Policy Sub Committee meeting on the 20th April 2015 agenda has listed item 9 as "exercise of option to operate Metrolink Phase 3b". I would like to ask is this information available to the public, and if it isn't, could this information be obtained through the freedom of information act?”

I can confirm that TfGM holds this information. This is exempt under Section 43(1) – Commercial Interests of the Freedom of Information Act and is therefore being withheld.

TfGM's commercial interests would be prejudiced by disclosure as the report relates to property acquisition negotiations of the extension under the Operator Agreement and this would be a material risk to securing the optimum level of value for the public purse.

Under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, TfGM has a duty to supply any information on request, unless there is an exemption. It is TfGM's policy only to apply the exemptions where there is a genuine risk of harm or prejudice. In such cases, we will still provide information if it is in the public interest to do so.

Please note your other questions regarding Metrolink will be dealt with by our Metrolink Stakeholder team as routine correspondence.

As mentioned above, we need to get about 50tph down Cornbrook bridge, block signalling ain't going to allow that.



What view?

That as it stands (as Freel said) you can only get 30 tph down Cornbrook as an absolute maximum and we are at the limit today with delays already with the current setup?

Again, I think you are not reading my posts.

I have no issue with what technology is used.

I just don't want to see a substandard result for the customers.

If we can get 90tph with block signals, if we can get accurate information to customers and the control room I really don't mind if carrier pidgeons are used.

It's just it is clear that the block signalling we have today is no where near coping with what is required.

The view I referred to is in the top of this reply.

So your suggestion that because the current Metrolink signalling cannot cope that this is all block signalling is capable of? Rubbish. Your comparing an old system that was designed for lighter use and stating its the max that technology can achieve? What rubbish.

As my other posts state I'm talking about block signalling technology as a whole. Not the Metrolink's version of it.

Well in simple terms you make the blocks smaller but it will never be as good as LOS.

Cheers, Mack, sorry, I was too far away to read the numbers. There may have been more bananas following, as after an hour and a half in the rain, I thought that'll do me for to-day!!

They were doing no more than 20 mph, Martin, perhaps less, and waited a long time to enter the single line section at Dean Lane. I'll post a few long-distance zooms of that later.

It certainly looks like the handover has taken place and Oldham is imminent no matter what the signalling! (And actually, I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at in terms of signalling in that last shot . . . ?)

It doesn't surprise me that they are being precious about the Port Salford route. When I asked Mr Purdy about it at a meeting a couple of years back, he quickly changed the subject! Actually the explanation for withholding the info seems fair dinkum, re protection of the public purse.

:banana:

Nice pics johnny d of the :banana::banana::banana:`s and carnforths(next stop from morecambe/lancaster) west coast railways 37s(tractors) going under the finback bridge.

http://youtu.be/Gn9AFxKs4Tc

Well in simple terms you make the blocks smaller but it will never be as good as LOS.

Question is can they get a LOS solution that works safely with the junction? Guess for now that's a now.

As for the current set up of them not being happy with block sections and LOS on the same system. I wonder if the idea of reviewing standards on the lightly used branched and light rail could change this completely?

The argument is that no way do low speed branch lines need the same high standards of the rest of the network. This could apply to trams and allow for a shift change in system standards without a risk of danger. However tram trains could be kept in the higher standards due to mixed running.

Actually wasn't Mosley Street given as the reason why they couldn't have more than 30tph?

Cheers, Mack, sorry, I was too far away to read the numbers. There may have been more bananas following, as after an hour and a half in the rain, I thought that'll do me for to-day!!

They were doing no more than 20 mph, Martin, perhaps less, and waited a long time to enter the single line section at Dean Lane. I'll post a few long-distance zooms of that later.

It certainly looks like the handover has taken place and Oldham is imminent no matter what the signalling! (And actually, I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at in terms of signalling in that last shot . . . ?)

It doesn't surprise me that they are being precious about the Port Salford route. When I asked Mr Purdy about it at a meeting a couple of years back, he quickly changed the subject! Actually the explanation for withholding the info seems fair dinkum, re protection of the public purse.

:banana:

I did seem 3015 was one from your pictures. Hope you didn't get too wet.

They haven't yet properly replied to my Port Salford thing. In fact they've given me false information and not replied to me nice. May have to complain through the process.

Cheers folks - 37s, my rolling stock knowledge isn't very expansive, in fact no sé nada !

Here's a few more shots of the bananas in the rain, proceeding East towards Newton Heath this morning :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9844.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9876.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9847.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9852.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9854.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9855.jpg

The signals are interesting. On this one the tram has committed itself to the single line and the dot matrix has 'bunched' in the middle, as an 'amber' indication to following trams. The yellow dot matrix is also indicating a turnout to the left . . . (?) :-

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9881.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9858.jpg

Quite a lot of pics here - hopefully not spamming the thread too much as it feels like a defining moment!

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9862.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9863.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9865.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9866.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9870.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9872.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9879.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9880.jpg

Here are the two signals again - one yellow, one white dot matrix, initially with the middle dot missing. I guess this is some kind of 'advance' indication but would be interested to get a full account of the intricacies of these devices.

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Newton%20Heath%20Moston/101_9835.jpg

:banana:

Good pictures Johnny u finally seen tram or trams on the Oldham line, have they only get the signal in at Dean lane then as I haven't seen any up near me let?

EDIT: Looking at them last picture it look like they where only running trams from Dean Lane to Mumps?

:banana:

Cheers, Mack, sorry, I was too far away to read the numbers. There may have been more bananas following, as after an hour and a half in the rain, I thought that'll do me for to-day!!

They were doing no more than 20 mph, Martin, perhaps less, and waited a long time to enter the single line section at Dean Lane. I'll post a few long-distance zooms of that later.

It certainly looks like the handover has taken place and Oldham is imminent no matter what the signalling! (And actually, I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at in terms of signalling in that last shot . . . ?)

It doesn't surprise me that they are being precious about the Port Salford route. When I asked Mr Purdy about it at a meeting a couple of years back, he quickly changed the subject! Actually the explanation for withholding the info seems fair dinkum, re protection of the public purse.

:banana:

Well looking at ur picture Johnny u can tell 3015 was on the Oldham line and I'm sure the other ones where 3014 & 3017 trams that was on the Oldham line today.

Cheers folks - 37s, my rolling stock knowledge isn't very expansive, in fact no sé nada !

Here's a few more shots of the bananas in the rain, proceeding East towards Newton Heath this morning :-

Quite a lot of these - hopefully not spamming the thread too much as it feels like a defining moment!

The signals are interesting :-

There are two signals prior to the single line - one yellow, one white dot matrix, initially with the middle dot missing. I guess this is some kind of 'advance' indication but would be interested to get a full account of the intricacies of these devices.

:banana:

Johnny, never work about spamming the thread. We're all look forward to the shots you guys take and update us. It's a defining moment and it's great to see it happening!



Well looking at ur picture Johnny u can tell 3015 was on the Oldham line and I'm sure the other ones where 3014 & 3017 trams that was on the Oldham line today.

Thanks very much. Bit anal at wanting to know which trams are going up there.

There are two signals prior to the single line - one yellow, one white dot matrix, initially with the middle dot missing. I guess this is some kind of 'advance' indication but would be interested to get a full account of the intricacies of these devices.


These are the same type of signals and indicators as used over at MediaCity. The yellow one is a points position indicator that shows which way the points are set. The white one is a tram signal that shows stop or proceed. The middle dot that is missing appears once the tram has been detected as being is in the system and asking for a proceed.

If this has been posted before i apologise but im in work and haven't got time to read through the last few pages.I was talking to two metro link guys at South Chadderton station this morning and they told me that the testing of the lines and driver training is going on for another few weeks and then the line should be ready to open to the public at the end of May. He wouldnt elaborate anymore than that so i dont know wether to believe him or not

If this has been posted before i apologise but im in work and haven't got time to read through the last few pages.I was talking to two metro link guys at South Chadderton station this morning and they told me that the testing of the lines and driver training is going on for another few weeks and then the line should be ready to open to the public at the end of May. He wouldnt elaborate anymore than that so i dont know wether to believe him or not

^^^^ That is true imber they have start testing trams on the Oldham line from yesterday and it should be opening to public say 6th June.

Wow! Those pictures are ace as usual Johnny. Fantastic to see some bananas down there and great to know the opening to Mumps is really not that far away at all.

If this has been posted before i apologise but im in work and haven't got time to read through the last few pages.I was talking to two metro link guys at South Chadderton station this morning and they told me that the testing of the lines and driver training is going on for another few weeks and then the line should be ready to open to the public at the end of May. He wouldnt elaborate anymore than that so i dont know wether to believe him or not

That is all that I know and I have seen the Metrolink Weekly Briefing notes :lol:

^^^^ That is true imber they have start testing trams on the Oldham line from yesterday and it should be opening to public say 6th June.

Perhaps they should start a preview service on the saturday beforehand about 12 dinner till 9pmish and all day sunday offering free rides between Victoria and Oldham only. If anything goes wrong on the first day or so, then it won't be causing havoc in the peak on the monday morning, and allows them to withdraw it with no notice. Not that the service will be reliable anyway as it's coming from Chorlton and we know (as with all the lines at the moment with Cornbrook) what every 6 or 12 minutes means.
The other day I noticed on the pids at Chorlton about 5pm they said "ST W Rd 14 mins, 19 mins and 22 mins, so I waited and watched and sure enough the three came within 8 mins.

As for signalling...... the ones who know will tell me off for this.

If you are on a tram coming from Eccles that gets held before Cornbrook, you have to wait till the Altrincham one comes up, leaves, then goes through onto the birdcage before you get the green to go. So you are basically 3 signals behind and nearly a mile away.
So why can the current signalling meantime not be altered so that when a tram leaves Cornbrook it immediately clears allowing the waiting one through and up into the platform. The preceding tram will already be at Deansgate by then and have gone past another 3 signals. Even if the light before Cornbrook changes to yellow it will warn the driver to be on the lookout ready to stop, although he won't need to because he'll have already been watching.
Just a thought. Go on the crucify me.

Perhaps they should start a preview service on the saturday beforehand about 12 dinner till 9pmish and all day sunday offering free rides between Victoria and Oldham only. If anything goes wrong on the first day or so, then it won't be causing havoc in the peak on the monday morning, and allows them to withdraw it with no notice. Not that the service will be reliable anyway as it's coming from Chorlton and we know (as with all the lines at the moment with Cornbrook) what every 6 or 12 minutes means.
The other day I noticed on the pids at Chorlton about 5pm they said "ST W Rd 14 mins, 19 mins and 22 mins, so I waited and watched and sure enough the three came within 8 mins.

As for signalling...... the ones who know will tell me off for this.

If you are on a tram coming from Eccles that gets held before Cornbrook, you have to wait till the Altrincham one comes up, leaves, then goes through onto the birdcage before you get the green to go. So you are basically 3 signals behind and nearly a mile away.
So why can the current signalling meantime not be altered so that when a tram leaves Cornbrook it immediately clears allowing the waiting one through and up into the platform. The preceding tram will already be at Deansgate by then and have gone past another 3 signals. Even if the light before Cornbrook changes to yellow it will warn the driver to be on the lookout ready to stop, although he won't need to because he'll have already been watching.

[QUOTE]If you are on a tram coming from Eccles that gets held before Cornbrook, you have to wait till the Altrincham one comes up, leaves, then goes through onto the birdcage before you get the green to go. So you are basically 3 signals behind and nearly a mile away.
So why can the current signalling meantime not be altered so that when a tram leaves Cornbrook it immediately clears allowing the waiting one through and up into the platform. The preceding tram will already be at Deansgate by then and have gone past another 3 signals. Even if the light before Cornbrook changes to yellow it will warn the driver to be on the lookout ready to stop, although he won't need to because he'll have already been watching


I have often thought the same thing...surely of the platform at CRB s clear then why cant the next ram be allowed through?

If you are on a tram coming from Eccles that gets held before Cornbrook, you have to wait till the Altrincham one comes up, leaves, then goes through onto the birdcage before you get the green to go. So you are basically 3 signals behind and nearly a mile away.
So why can the current signalling meantime not be altered so that when a tram leaves Cornbrook it immediately clears allowing the waiting one through and up into the platform. The preceding tram will already be at Deansgate by then and have gone past another 3 signals. Even if the light before Cornbrook changes to yellow it will warn the driver to be on the lookout ready to stop, although he won't need to because he'll have already been watching.
Just a thought. Go on the crucify me.

That's what I was on about with shorting the signalling sections. It can be done but it depends on if Metrolink is prepared to start upping capacity at the pinch points. The alternate solution is likely to address this issues.

Because its a blind junction with two lines merging.

Are we seriously suggesting the PIDs will be remotely accurate over that kind of distance given all the various issues that can arise?

Surely the PIDs work on where the tram actually is rather than where it's supposed to be?
Distance shouldn't make one jot of difference to accuracy.

In Chorlton the other day I watched the PID correcting itself, reducing time to next tram from 7 minutes to four minutes in the space of about 30 seconds, with the tram arriving at the indicated time.

Because its a blind junction with two lines merging.

What's that got to do with it? If an Eccles tram gets the go ahead and carries on up to Cornbrook and there is another one waiting that's coming from Alt/St W, it will still get held by the red light after Trafford Bar. Anyway, if any of them go through a red light they will get "tripped".

Surely the PIDs work on where the tram actually is rather than where it's supposed to be?
Distance shouldn't make one jot of difference to accuracy.

Hence my question about using just block signalling. I am interested in knowing how the systems will know where a tram is between signals if that gap is huge.

In Chorlton the other day I watched the PID correcting itself, reducing time to next tram from 7 minutes to four minutes in the space of about 30 seconds, with the tram arriving at the indicated time.

Because TMS is not working yet.

Because TMS is not working yet.

Never the less, it still accurately indicated when the next tram was due.

Never the less, it still accurately indicated when the next tram was due.

From experience of MediaCity and the Chorlton line the PIDs work much of the time.

They often show phantom trams or miss trams though, because TMS is not working.

Great pics Johnny, quite exciting to see pics of trams running along the line under its own power. Roll on opening day :) :banana:

Gotcha!!

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx61/Johnny_de_Rivative/Oldham/Central%20Park/terdrop.jpg




Excellent pictures as always Johnny!!!

Question.... Is it just me or do the wires look lower than those at Piccadilly undercroft? And in the centre of the bridge doesn't the wire look like it's sagging down, which has a risk of being snagged & ripped down by a passing tram, especially in hot weather? Quite a big gap - it looks like they missed out a O/H line support.

Loving the pictures of trams on the ORL. Thanks Johnny!


Actually wasn't Mosley Street given as the reason why they couldn't have more than 30tph?

I think the plan for 3b is for 35tph along the Cornbrook Viaduct. Mosley Street has a capacity of only 25tph currently and apparently 30tph with modifications, hence 2CC.

However, even with only the Chorlton line open, the block signalling on the Cornbrook viaduct is currently at capacity and needs replacing. You said that block signalling can cope with higher frequency on Thameslink - but I doubt that was cheap, in fact I suspect that as signalling systems go it was very expensive.

Trams accelerate/brake much quicker than trains, so a much cheaper signalling system that can be used on Metrolink is to use LoS and rely on drivers to keep the distance. TMS seems to be a more passive signalling system, which only has signals to stop collisions at the junctions. Presumably it will also have ways of keeping trams evenly spaced and informing passengers of when the next tram will arrive. If it ever works that is ...