This is true.

That's why changing gauge of all lines in Spain would not be too expensive: most new tracks are prepared for standard gauge, and most lines have a low traffic. And with the opening of the Valladolid-León/Burgos HSLs the existing lines could be easily regauged. You don't need 4 tracks to handle 120 trains a day...



There is another problem... all the network is radial. All lines departing Madrid. It is the fourth time it happens (first with the roads, second with the normal railway, third with the motorways, fourth with the high speed rails).

Today the Barcelona-Vigo uses the high speed rail between Barcelona and Zaragoza and continues with the old rail.
They will open new parts... but they will have to decide if this train (that connects the north side of the country corner to corner) will have to change the gauge several times or not...

437.001 you live in Tarragona som perhaps you can explain to me the rationale behind the location of the planned Tarragona-Reus trainstation.

Now, when I look at the map to me it looks like a no brainer. The station goes on top of the existing rail line creating an intermodal hub with exelent road and rail connections to Reus, Tarragona and Salou. With a commuter rail line between Reus and Tarragona you could link up 200.000 people within a 10 minute train ride from the station, and with a short branch link up Port Aventura and Salou.

Yet the planners opted for a from my point of view totally unlogical location between the motorway and the backside of the airport. Why that location? It is further away from Port Aventura and Salou, and will be difficult to reach without a private vehicle unless they will turn it into a sackstation and backtrack the trains from Vila-Seca but that seems very awkward to me.

Summary:

Rail cross will be just before Camp de Tarragona.

So then:

Trains Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona (or anywhere before Zaragoza through Barcelona) will stop at Camp de Tarragona (only possibility)

Trains Zaragoza-Tarragona-Tortosa (low demande but possible) will stop at Tarragona-central

Trains Barcelona-Valencia could stop anywhere in the two stations but Tarragona-central is close to the city and to Reus. It is much easier to have a shuttle from there... and will be in the airport of Reus.

Furthermore, it is planned to have an European gauge until Tarragona-central (even when it will be at Reus, not at Tarragona) and later a gauge-changer to continue through Valencia.

Since there until southern L'Hospitalet there will be a new line with stops near (but outside of the towns) Salou, Cambrils and L'Hospitalet.

They need a point for shuttle lines and this point was the best.


Anyway, 437.001 will be able to give us further details

AVE Madrid-Valencia : Renfe trabaja para reducir hasta en 25 minutos

Aunque durante su primer año de funcionamiento ya ha sido un éxito entre los viajeros, el AVE entre Madrid y Valencia aún no ha alcanzado la velocidad de crucero. Renfe evalúa ahora la posibilidad de poner en marcha los trabajos previos para incrementar la velocidad de circulación en esta línea, que pasaría de los 300 actuales hasta los 310-315 kilómetros por hora. Así, el recorrido entre ambas capitales podrá efectuarse en tan sólo 85 minutos, hasta 25 minutos menos que algunos trenes en la actualidad y 13 minutos menos que la mayoría de los viajes, con una duración de 98 minutos.

La mejora es similar a la del trazado entre Madrid y Barcelona, en el que la velocidad de circulación de algunos trenes se ha elevado de 300 a 310 kilómetros por hora, para reducir la duración del trayecto.

En el caso del AVE Madrid-Valencia, estas mejoras no se pueden aplicar hasta concluir el primer año de funcionamiento de la línea desde el viaje inaugural, que se produjo el pasado 19 de diciembre, para que la plataforma se asiente adecuadamente. Concluido este plazo, se realizará una exhaustiva revisión de seguridad en toda la línea. Sólo en caso de que este estudio dé un resultado positivo, se podrá incrementar la velocidad de los trenes, algo que debe evaluar la empresa pública Adif.
98 minutos de media

En la actualidad, el AVE Madrid-Valencia circula a 300 kilómetros por hora y efectúa el recorrido en una media de unos 98 minutos. Una vez concluyan estas labores técnicas, podrá viajar entre 310 y 315 kilómetros por hora, por lo que la duración del trayecto será inferior a una hora y 25 minutos. Mientras tanto, siguen adelante los plazos previstos para el resto del trazado en la Comunidad Valenciana, según los cuales el AVE llegará a Alicante en 2012.

http://www.abc.es/20111025/comunidad-valencia/abcp-renfe-trabaja-para-reducir-20111025.html

Same thing pour the AVE Madrid-Barcelona

------------------------

El AVE Madrid-Barcelona circulará a 310 kilómetros por hora desde hoy

http://www.costasespagne.com/Ave%20Madrid%20Barcelona.jpg

Madrid, 24 oct (EFE).- El tren de alta velocidad que enlaza Madrid con Barcelona circulará, a partir de hoy, a 310 kilómetros por hora en algunos tramos del trayecto, lo que permitirá reducir el tiempo de viaje entre ambas ciudades a dos horas y media.

De momento cuatro circulaciones diarias acortarán su tiempo de viaje en unos 10 minutos de media, mientras que, a partir de diciembre, las mejoras comenzarán a extenderse a todos los trenes de este corredor de alta velocidad, según el Ministerio de Fomento.

Las cuatro circulaciones que reducirán a partir de hoy su tiempo de viaje serán los trenes que salen de Madrid a las 07.00 horas y las 17.00 horas, y de Barcelona, a las 06.30 y las 17.30 horas.

El incremento de la velocidad ha sido posible gracias a la puesta en servicio por parte de Fomento del segundo nivel del Sistema Europeo de Gestión del Tráfico Ferroviario ERTMS en la línea Madrid-Barcelona-frontera francesa.

Su implantación se hará, no obstante, de forma progresiva, por lo que, en la primera fase, el ERTMS de nivel 2 entrará en servicio comercial en el tramo Madrid-Lleida, tras culminar con éxito las pruebas técnicas de su validación y fiabilidad, mientras que en el de Lleida-Barcelona, lo hará en diciembre de este año.

El incremento de la velocidad de explotación comercial también será gradual y, en la primera fase, la velocidad máxima se elevará hasta los 310 kilómetros por hora, donde la infraestructura lo permita y una vez homologado el material rodante.

El ERTMS es impulsado desde la Unión Europea para asegurar la interoperabilidad de todas las nuevas líneas que se construyan en las diferentes redes ferroviarias de los estados miembros.

Con 1.491 kilómetros de línea férrea dotada de ERTMS, España tiene en estos momentos la mayor implantación del sistema común europeo de señalización. EFE

http://www.abc.es/agencias/noticia.asp?noticia=972892

437.001 you live in Tarragona som perhaps you can explain to me the rationale behind the location of the planned Tarragona-Reus trainstation.

Now, when I look at the map to me it looks like a no brainer. The station goes on top of the existing rail line creating an intermodal hub with exelent road and rail connections to Reus, Tarragona and Salou. With a commuter rail line between Reus and Tarragona you could link up 200.000 people within a 10 minute train ride from the station, and with a short branch link up Port Aventura and Salou.

Yet the planners opted for a from my point of view totally unlogical location between the motorway and the backside of the airport. Why that location? It is further away from Port Aventura and Salou, and will be difficult to reach without a private vehicle unless they will turn it into a sackstation and backtrack the trains from Vila-Seca but that seems very awkward to me.

The answer is that politicians put their paws in everything they can for reasons that they alone know and that we can only guess.

Summary:

Rail cross will be just before Camp de Tarragona...


This map from www.ferropedia.es illustrates what Alserrod has explained:

http://www.ferropedia.es/mediawiki/images/thumb/3/34/Fom-Ineco_CM2011_hoja4.jpg/800px-Fom-Ineco_CM2011_hoja4.jpg

In the article http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/El_ferrocarril_en_Tarragona there are several other maps, including this one of 2005 that I find very interesting, but that unfortunately was not followed.

http://www.ferropedia.es/mediawiki/images/thumb/2/28/Ajreus4mk.jpg/600px-Ajreus4mk.jpg

A few images of high speed trains on the Madrid-Barcelona line.
The location is La Granada station, on the R4 line of the Barcelona commuter train Renfe network.
This station is just beside the HSL.

76maEBQRCaw

Video of the Spanish consortium which has won the contract for the new HSR line construction in Saudi Arabia.

(In English)

http://tll.kewego.com/t/0/0835/154x114_iLyROoaf2Df8_2_kew1319645718.jpg (http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoaf2Df8.html)
Línea de Alta Velocidad Medina - La Meca. Consorcio español de alta velocidad (English version) - Adif (http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoaf2Df8.html)

Now, when I look at the map to me it looks like a no brainer. The station goes on top of the existing rail line creating an intermodal hub with exelent road and rail connections to Reus, Tarragona and Salou. With a commuter rail line between Reus and Tarragona you could link up 200.000 people within a 10 minute train ride from the station, and with a short branch link up Port Aventura and Salou.

Yes, but rail hubs don't seem to be a Renfe thing. That you can use regional or commuter rail as a feeder to HSR is a concept that still has to catch on in Spain it seems to me.

I found this map in wikipedia, looks interesting

Septembre 2011
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Red_actual_de_ferrocarriles_de_Espa%C3%B1a_%28ancho_europeo%29.png/900px-Red_actual_de_ferrocarriles_de_Espa%C3%B1a_%28ancho_europeo%29.png

Yes, but rail hubs don't seem to be a Renfe thing. That you can use regional or commuter rail as a feeder to HSR is a concept that still has to catch on in Spain it seems to me.

One can accuse Renfe of a lot of bad things but they are not responsible for the location of the train stations. The problem here is that local athority has overridden common sense and opted for train-airport intermodal hub (the latest shit in Spain).

They seemed to forget that for the airport-train station concept to work you need an airport with traffic in the 10+ million passengers range. Another problem is that Reus Airport is not an international hub and will never be with Barcelona, Valencia and Madrid serving that function.

Of cause another problem is that the train station is located on the wrong side of the airport so i any case a shuttle bus will be needed, but I doubt that will ever be needed, without Ryan Air Reus is an airport that serve charter tourists (about half a million of them) to Salou and Cambrils and that's about it.

However the main problem with the train station is the location itself. It is really stupid as you will only be able to access it from one direction, this will creat a huge bottleneck for car traffic that would never had happened if they had choosen to build the station to the south on top of the existing rail road, where you can connect the station to three major roads (independently) and at the same time with minimal effort connect all the important towns around with commuter rail.

I found this map in wikipedia, looks interesting

Septembre 2011
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Red_actual_de_ferrocarriles_de_Espa%C3%B1a_%28ancho_europeo%29.png/900px-Red_actual_de_ferrocarriles_de_Espa%C3%B1a_%28ancho_europeo%29.png


This is CURRENT map for high speed railway and international gauge. All lines are prepared for 300 km/h at least except Zaragoza-Huesca (international gauge but only 200 or 160 km/h)

Take a look that at Madrid the two stations are not still linked (under construction).

There are trains running on international gauge from Madrid to all those corners (Sevilla, Malaga, Valencia, Albacete, Toledo, Huesca, Barcelona and Valladolid).
There are also trains running from Barcelona to Sevilla and Barcelona to Malaga without stopping at Madrid. There is a by-pass in the south of Madrid... and it is under construction another one to link Valencia and Sevilla/Malaga with non-stop at Madrid (faster and less kilometres).
And also there are trains Madrid-Puertollano, Sevilla-Malaga, Barcelona-Lleida and Zaragoza-Calatayud for short distances using this infrastructure

Apart of those trains which are 100% international gauge there are trains that uses all that they can of the high speed network and have an interchange of rails to continue in the Spanish gauge to any corner. Cadiz, Huelva, Algeciras, Malaga, Alicante, Castellon, Logroño, Pamplona, Irun, Bilbao, Santander, Gijon, La Coruña and Vigo are linked to Madrid via high speed line and a change of gauges.

Pamplona, Irun, Bilbao, Vigo and Gijon are linked to Barcelona making part of way in high speed line (until Zaragoza) and later with the Spanish gauge.

And... I had a "Miss". It appears the international tunnel near Mediterranean where two daily TGV trains arrive from Paris (and nearly another one from Geneve)

Thanks for the explanation
There are also trains running from Barcelona to Sevilla and Barcelona to Malaga without stopping at Madrid. There is a by-pass in the south of Madrid... and it is under construction another one to link Valencia and Sevilla/Malaga with non-stop at Madrid (faster and less kilometres).
Is this future by-pass will be in the south of Toledo ? and no is there already AVE from Valencia to Sevilla/Malaga with non-stop at Madrid Atocha ? it looks like it's possible in the map ?

and no is there already AVE from Valencia to Sevilla/Malaga with non-stop at Madrid Atocha ?

There aren't, because the link between Madrid-Levante (Valencia, ...) and Madrid-Andalusia (Cordoba, Malaga, ...) lines is still under construction: http://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Madrid&hl=it&sll=38.800119,-0.045319&sspn=0.41847,0.617294&vpsrc=0&hnear=Madrid,+Spagna&t=h&z=16

Is it correct that the new HSR tunnels under Barcelona, Girona and Madrid are drilled with one tube with 2 tracks and not (as normal) with 2 tubes with one track each.

When are they going to link Chamartin and Atocha for HSR? And after that happens, will Chamartin stop being an HSR station or continue to be one (in a less significant capacity) a la Ueno Station in Tokyo?

Is it correct that the new HSR tunnels under Barcelona, Girona and Madrid are drilled with one tube with 2 tracks and not (as normal) with 2 tubes with one track each.

Why does that seem so strange to you?

It really makes no difference.

When are they going to link Chamartin and Atocha for HSR? And after that happens, will Chamartin stop being an HSR station or continue to be one (in a less significant capacity) a la Ueno Station in Tokyo?

It´ll continue to be one.
It will actually be the terminus for all the AVE trains to Valencia and Alicante, which will quit Atocha station because Atocha is approaching saturation..

It seemed to me that in Atocha a lot of capacity is lost because of trains standing there doing nothing...

Is it correct that the new HSR tunnels under Barcelona, Girona and Madrid are drilled with one tube with 2 tracks and not (as normal) with 2 tubes with one track each.
with normal, do you mean the Channel Tunnel ?
I think most of urban tunnel are one tube, since the train speed limit is quite low

Just wait a minute before you jump the gun because i didn't say it was strange i was just interested in this kind of tunneling.

Here in Scandinavia we mostly use tunnels with 2 tubes like the Copenhagen metro, Citytunneln in Malmö, the Great Belt rail tunnel and also one of the proposed H-H tunnels between Denmark and Sweden is designed with 2 tubes.

ok fine...didn't know about scandinavian metros ^^

Thanks for the explanation

Is this future by-pass will be in the south of Toledo ? and no is there already AVE from Valencia to Sevilla/Malaga with non-stop at Madrid Atocha ? it looks like it's possible in the map ?



They will be existing lines only. Currently it would be possible if running Valencia-Madrid, stopping after the cross in the middle of the line and going backside to Sevilla.

With this new link a train will be able to go from Valencia to Sevilla and Malaga with no stop.


As an example, this is the link near Madrid for trains from Barcelona to Sevilla and Malaga.

The connection is the railway besides the M-50. The other lines are the main ones Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Barcelona.

http://maps.google.es/?ll=40.325477,-3.635015&spn=0.035532,0.084543&t=h&z=14&vpsrc=6

@ harrys

Sorry if i was rude to you but i was referring to the other user who thought that i was thinging that is was strange to build with one tube.

But another question, is it cheaper to use one tube instead of 2, because you will need a much larger TBM to fit 2 tracks in the tunnel.

It depends on the length of the tunnel and the kind of line you´re building, and the kind of soil you´re boring.

Two separate tubes gives several advantages:
* Safety: if a train should derail, it can't crash into one travelling in the opposite direction.

* Redundancy: if one tube is closed due to accidents, fire or maintenance, the other can be used bi-directionally. The Simplon tunnel is still operating on the one tunnel that's fully open (after a fire several months ago).

So its more expensive in most cases to have 2 tunnels but its more practical and a little bit more safe.

There are several reasons for choosing monotube or twin tube tunnel. But the three main ones are the geology, availability of tunneling and maximum speed. On the geology of Madrid and Barcelona, ​​speed and availability of machinery the option of a single tube was the best.

It is also important to remember that these tunnels are not high speed. The speed will be limited to run between two stations very close. And security is guaranteed by the emergency exits.

You are also fogetting the fact of the emergency exits.

In a urban tunnel you could build as many exits directly to the surface as you want, while in a mountain or a sea tunnel the only way to make a emergency exit is to the other tube.

The expensive or not expensive question is a little more difficult, it depens on a lot of things... the Toulouse undeground has twin-tube sections between monotube sections.

ok fine...didn't know about scandinavian metros ^^

Well, many metros use separate tubes. All Russia and CIS (= ex-soviet) metros are separate-tube type, for example.

Well, many metros use separate tubes. All Russia and CIS (= ex-soviet) metros are separate-tube type, for example.

In networks like that, usually once you have a construction system is easier to mantain it, due to the reuse of the construction equipament and techniques.

Well, many metros use separate tubes. All Russia and CIS (= ex-soviet) metros are separate-tube type, for example.

Some TBM circumference are so large that it can fit two metro tubes so they actually create a divider between the two lane. This is to insulate noise and wind moving from one lane to the other which becomes annoying to the passenger.

http://www.soap.com.au/underground/tbm_parents.jpg

Another types are these that bore two tunnels at once.

http://www.soap.com.au/underground/tbm_triple_big.jpg

Riding from Málaga..

xtva_wfIMYU

thanks Mare nostrum

new talgo AVRIL´s video

FCBjBftY_Kg

passenger rail equipment for high speed intercity service.

Riding from Málaga..

xtva_wfIMYU

great video!

Recorded at the high speed rail Madrid - Barcelona (province of Zaragoza).

6YuEUyLhb7s

Superb!

Fantastic! :eek:

Wow is this true?

I heard that they are planning for a bullet train service to the Airport (Madrid Barajas) in addition to the existing airport rail link of the Madrid Metro

Wow that would be awesome if it's true :D:banana:

^^

No, We are building it ;)

^^ :sleepy:

Wow is this true?

I heard that they are planning for a bullet train service to the Airport (Madrid Barajas) in addition to the existing airport rail link of the Madrid Metro



The AVE high speed trains will use the recently opened Cercanías C1 (commuter) tracks to access the Airport.

I don't see the point, the AVE users can already take a Cercanías from Chamartín railway station to the T4 in just 10 minutes, and with the same AVE ticket. Plus, there is also the metro line 8...

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20110923elpepunac_6/XLCO/Ies/nuevo_C-1.jpg

Wow is this true?

I heard that they are planning for a bullet train service to the Airport (Madrid Barajas) in addition to the existing airport rail link of the Madrid Metro

Wow that would be awesome if it's true :D:banana:


Yeah... as Ramiro II said, it is true, but it will be more in order to confort (avoid transfer with suitcases) than speed (they will be as fast as commuter trains only in that strech).

Madrid-Barajas has four terminals. Underground line 8 goes to Terminal 2 (and possibility to go to 1 and 3 just walking) and Terminal 4.
Train goes only to Terminal 4.

There are not a lot of possibilities to have many trains there. We will see some high speed trains but not all. Anyway, from Chamartin or Atocha you can shuttle to a commuter train with the same speed there.

thanks Mare nostrum

new talgo AVRIL´s video

FCBjBftY_Kg

passenger rail equipment for high speed intercity service.

Is that train going to be manufactured in Spain?

^^It is.

But Talgo has the habit to manufacture their trains in combination with the purchaser company, because this way it's easier to sell them, so if any foreign company buys them they could be half-made in another country.

It is great that it is produced in Spain :cheers: I know that Talgo does not always manufacture the trains it designs and that is why I asked. Furthermore its facilities in Las Matas and Alava (near Miranda de Ebro but I cannot remember the name) do not look so large. And yet they can produce such a great machine. :)

^^But it is not exactly creating a dessing to be made by others. Talgo trains are always made by Talgo, but usually a part of them are made by Talgo in the purchaser company depots by the purchaser company staff. In the case of Renfe, series 102 and 112 where partially made at Integria (Renfe's manufacturing division) in Los Prados (Málaga).

That is very interesting information. I have never heard about that facility in Malaga, thank you very much :):):)

Recorded at the high speed rail Madrid - Barcelona (province of Zaragoza).

6YuEUyLhb7s

Superb!
Amazing! They sound like planes.
Here it is the 1st video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcXiXCGVNPM

That is very interesting information. I have never heard about that facility in Malaga, thank you very much :):):)

It's that one:

http://maps.google.es/maps?ll=36.696834,-4.467761&z=18

A new high speed train (350 Km/h), the CAF Oaris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAF_Oaris) (Renfe Serie 105), is being tested in Spain these days:

Que bonico que es!
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6224/6329672860_454a49d956_b.jpg



According to CAF, the Oaris platform is based around a distributed power concept, allowing sets to be formed with four, six or eight coaches. Each vehicle would have one motored bogie with two asynchronous three phase motors and VVVF inverter drive, allowing the installed power to be directly related to train length. A multi-system traction package would allow operation at 1·5 or 3 kV DC, 15 or 25 kV AC. An eight-car set would have two transformers feeding four inverter sets, with one inverter per supplying the two traction motors on that vehicle.

The aluminium bodyshells have been designed to meet all European TSIs and crashworthiness requirements whilst keeping weight to a minimum. Bogies would have helical spring primary suspensions and a pneumatic secondary suspension backed up by transverse and lateral linkages between bogie and car body. Traction motors would be frame-mounted to minimise unsprung weight.

CAF says the trains could be supplied for 1 435 or 1 668 mm gauge, with a gauge-convertible option also envisaged. Oaris is intended to accept a variety of signalling systems now in use across Europe, as well as ETCS.

How long does it take from Madrid to Barcelona? Did the train stop anywhere during the trip?

How long does it take from Madrid to Barcelona? Did the train stop anywhere during the trip?

2h40 the fastest, not-stop services. Some stop at Zaragoza and Lleida.

AVE Madrid-Barcelona has direct non-stop trains, trains which stop only at Zaragoza, and others which stop at Guadalajara-Yebes or Calatayud, Zaragoza, Lleida and Camp de Tarragona.

2h40 the fastest, not-stop services. Some stop at Zaragoza and Lleida.

It is 2H30 now that they have started to use ETCS 2. Still that is relatively slow at 248km/h average speed. At the current max speed (310km/h) it is possible already now to run the direct trains in 2H15 but RENFE has this no late trains policy so the trains usually end up arriving ahead of the timetable, sometimes as much as 20 min for the direct trains.

I hope the new party in power does not halt the expansion of the HSR network.

Austerity during a recession= more recession.

^^ that's what the party that has lost the election said...

so yes there will be austerity, and a lot, but not on trains, but in health, education, etc :(

austerity will be an excuse to say we are wrong, so they can privatize what have always wanted to privatize

It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.

^^ well, it's a government-built railway line and a government-owned public company running the services, so people has already paid and continues to pay via taxes, it's only fair that fares are low.

A new high speed train (350 Km/h), the CAF Oaris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAF_Oaris) (Renfe Serie 105), is being tested in Spain these days:

Oh exciting!
I much prefer CAF-built trains to Talgo ones, I hope this turns out to be a successful set!

How long does it take from Madrid to Barcelona? Did the train stop anywhere during the trip?


With some changes, the regular timetables are (monday to friday):

Five direct trains non-stop Madrid-Barcelona. Three early morning and two in the evening. They do not run on weekends, summer, Christmas, Easter...

And every hour departing Madrid at XX:30 and Barcelona at XX:00

- First train stops only at Zaragoza
- Second train stops at Calatayud, Zaragoza, Lleida and Camp de Tarragona
- Third train stops only at Zaragoza
- Fourth trains stops at Guadalajara, Zaragoza, Lleida and Camp de Tarragona.

So then, except the five direct trains, all of them stops at Zaragoza (one every hour). Half of them stops at Lleida and Camp de Tarragona (one every two hours) and at Calatayud and Guadalajara every 4 hours

It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.

I don't know what will this party do but at the end the rail market will be a free market in some years, like air companies market was done. Both privatized or not, spanish' rails will have private companies over them. SNCF is one of the interested companies.

It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.

WHAT??????????????????

all HST infrastructure belong to the Spanish, privatize and sell it would be a stolen. because a private company would never pay what it cost to build the infrastructure that is owned by the citizenry

It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.

So you wish users will pay more, and that extraprofits from the use of an infrastructure built with taxpayer's money will go to a private company.
It is very often a real struggle to understand the points you try to make.

^^ I'm talking about privatizing the operations, not the infrastructure. Like complying right now with European directives, segregating de-facto the infrastructure from the train operations, and selling or leasing the latter for the highest bidder. Or allow any private operator willing to pay tolls (like in highways) to run high-speed trains over Spanish tracks.

Nowhere I spoke of selling the tracks and stations, sorry if you understood that.

It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.Madrid-Valencia: 391 km and 79.80 EUR -> 0.204 EUR/km

Milano-Bologna: 215 km and 42 EUR -> 0.195 EUR/km

And in Italy you have several different options for all the different costumers (Regionale, Intercity, Frecciargento, Frecciarossa...). In Spain usually all those services disappear or raise their prices a lot so that "everybody choose HS".

Moreover, prices/wages are 10% higher in Italy.

I'm talking about privatizing the operations, not the infrastructure. Like complying right now with European directives, segregating de-facto the infrastructure from the train operations, and selling or leasing the latter for the highest bidder. Or allow any private operator willing to pay tolls (like in highways) to run high-speed trains over Spanish tracks. Spain desperately needs that, but to lower prices and add more options for costumers. Right now the people who use HSL are those who used to take a plane. All the bus-users and many train-users have left the train because it is just too expensive and there are few trains available.

That's ridiculous. After spending such amount of money in HSL, transport by bus/car should be almost inexistent in most routes.

^^ Let me elaborate more: the current service level of AVE warrants a higher cost. However, with an open access, low-cost operators using trains with 2nd class only, open seat on 2+3 seat-per-row arrangement etc. have potential to offer, also, lower cost services.

After spending such amount of money in HSL, transport by bus/car should be almost inexistent in most routes.
Spain did have a quite develope bus transport system because its railways were very slow compared to France, Italy, Germany... So buses will be there making competition to high-speed trains, but if low-cost train operators existed, they'd probably get a hit.

As for car, I don't think many people drive all the way from Madrid to Barcelona or Sevilla, and those who do are unlikely to change modes of transportation.

^^ I'm talking about privatizing the operations, not the infrastructure. Like complying right now with European directives, segregating de-facto the infrastructure from the train operations, and selling or leasing the latter for the highest bidder. Or allow any private operator willing to pay tolls (like in highways) to run high-speed trains over Spanish tracks.

Nowhere I spoke of selling the tracks and stations, sorry if you understood that.

I know you were referring to operations. Still, if a state company can make profits from the use of an infrastructure (including depreciation costs), at the same time offering lower-than-average fares, I really don't see where's the problem. Rail operations are not like air travel: they are a natural monopoly, i.e. the most efficient market structure is the one with a single supplier. Instead of having a private operator strictly, and generally ineffectively, regulated by the state, extracting a disproportionately high yield from the use of such infrastructure, the state just take over operations and runs the infrastructure reconciling profits with social benefits.
The competition and free-market mambo-jumbo, at least when applied to natural monopolies such as rail operations, universal postal service or water services, will just lead to inefficiency and higher social costs at consumers' expense.

I know you were referring to operations. Still, if a state company can make profits from the use of an infrastructure (including depreciation costs), at the same time offering lower-than-average fares, I really don't see where's the problem.

The problem is that nowadays in the opinion of the customers Spain's so far away of having lower-than-average fares. Even when "rail tollls" aren't so expensive. And after 20 years of high speed Renfe has demostrated that they have not any intention to change it.

The fares are really closer of that of the national air companies before the liberalization of the air market. They are expensive, they aren't flexible.

The other problem in here is that when operations will be in a free market we are supossed to have public and private competitors in the same line. Ones will think that this is a problem to the private companies, I think the problem is for the public operator that doesn't know how to please the customers and how to manage a free market.

We could think that the solution for Renfe is to do low cost services, but it's so clear that this is not their game. Adding that they have eliminated all the other services (it has it explanation) in high speed corridor, Renfe will suffer, but customers will be deligthed.

I'd prefer a hyper-efficient Renfe, but is not the real one. The causes of that could be a great discuss, I think it comes from the rail situation in Spain from after the civil war, that has been always "special".

Rail operations are not like air travel: they are a natural monopoly, i.e. the most efficient market structure is the one with a single supplier. Instead of having a private operator strictly, and generally ineffectively, regulated by the state, extracting a disproportionately high yield from the use of such infrastructure
I don't see the difference with the air market. Where is the inefficiency? In the liberalization process the've copied all the operation way from air traffic. They exist slots, to run a train you only have to resquet it and pay the taxes, and traffic controlers only see trains in their screens, don't mind what company they are. There is no difference to run a public train or a private train in that infrastructure.

If you're talking about passengers flow efficiency, Renfe has demonstrated he's not enought.

It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.

Are you on drugs or what?

Figueras-Paris on TGV, tickets from 54€. That´s more than 800km.
Valencia-Madrid, usual price: 80€ for a distance of just a little over 300km.

^^ well, it's a government-built railway line and a government-owned public company running the services, so people has already paid and continues to pay via taxes, it's only fair that fares are low.

Fares aren´t effing low, they´re just as expensive as in Germany, if not more!!!!!

The first ever electric train to enter La Coruña station, an Avant, class S-121, doing the tests for the new HSL Ourense-Santiago-La Coruña.

Here it is:

8I9OvDW2NUc

_9UPgCVJcMc

It is a fantastic news because it is the opening of the final strech of high speed to La Coruña.

It is opened with Spanish gauge instead of international gauge because there is no continous line later and they avoid to change the gauge.

But it is ready to be changed quickly to international gauge when the high speed line arrive to Orense.

Since december, timetables are calculated with a saving time on those journeys.

In the polish television was a report about high-speed trains in Spain, and was told that AVE are the best and the longest high-speed train in Europe:)

http://szybkakolejtak.pl/multimedia/filmy/ave

In the polish television was a report about high-speed trains in Spain, and was told that AVE are the best and the longest high-speed train in Europe:)

http://szybkakolejtak.pl/multimedia/filmy/ave



The longest network it is... and it has a special detail... different gauge. High speed network has European gauge, different to the Spanish normal railway.

Best trains... any passenger could decide.
They are not bad, but also not cheap and have few alternatives.

BTW, around the minute 3:00 the images were taken near my city but in the middle of nowhere.

Amazing photo by REGFA. S-121, doing the tests for the new HSL Ourense-Santiago-La Coruña.

Ponte Ulla bridge

La linea entre Santiago y Ourense tiene bastantes circulaciones de lunes a viernes con la formación y pruebas de los 121.

Viaducto de Guntian.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7030/6410404899_77e2afb2d5_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/regfa251013/6410404899/)
Ponte Ulla (http://www.flickr.com/photos/regfa251013/6410404899/) por ***REGFA*** (http://www.flickr.com/people/regfa251013/), en Flickr

The longest network it is... and it has a special detail... different gauge. High speed network has European gauge, different to the Spanish normal railway.



Alserrod, he is speaking about High Speed Lines network. Total rail network is far from being among the longest

Mistake from my side... I wanted to say about high speed railway network.

The normal network is not so great... and it is a pity but the trains are prepared for trips point to point... not to connect with another one.

a la gloria

In next year I'm going to visit Spain and ride the high-speed train. For this, I made a map on which routes are painted concrete classes of trains. In order to understand it takes some time.

http://s012.radikal.ru/i319/1112/f2/b5ab9a0de26ft.jpg (http://radikal.ru/F/s012.radikal.ru/i319/1112/f2/b5ab9a0de26f.jpg.html)

Lines of different colors represent different types of trains on selected sites
Blue - AVE
Red - AVANT
Black - ALVIA, Euromed and Alaris

AVE - AVE
AL - Alvia
Ala - Alaris
E - Euromed

How to decipher the inscriptions:
for example near with Sevilla written BAVES103 - read as: B AVE S103 - from Barcelona to Sevilla, AVE, class 103
also
near with Jaen written CS121 - read as: C S121 - from Cadiz to Jaen (red line - AVANT), class 121.

Through this scheme, I'm going to create my route in order to ride on all types of high-speed trains in Spain

The scheme was drawn up by renfe.es and ru.* de.*, es.*, en.wikipedia.org. Please specify the inaccuracies and outright errors.

PS: I'm from Russia, I do not know English very well, so part of the message written by translate.google.ru
PSS: I made a similar scheme for Italy, but there are more questions. I also want to do for France.

Barcelona-Sevilla/Málaga it's 102 or 112, depending of the timetable. You could know them in the sales system because S112 has two classes, instead of S102 who has three.

Santander, Gijón, Bilbao and Irún trains are going to be S120 in the future.

Ourense-A Coruña will have an Avant S121 service.

Madrid-Granada/Algeciras have Altaria services wich run partially trougth the HSL at 200 km/h between Madrid and Antequera-Santa Ana. Madrid-Vigo/A Coruña too beetween Madrid and Medina del Campo, but they aren't called Altaria, I think.

Trenhotel night trains Barcelona-Vigo/A Coruña/Gijón use partially the HSL, also at 200 km/h, between Barcelona and Zaragoza.

There are TGV's who enter Spain for few kilometers, at Irún (non HSL) and at Figueres-Vilafant (HSL).

In next year I'm going to visit Spain and ride the high-speed train. For this, I made a map on which routes are painted concrete classes of trains. In order to understand it takes some time.

http://s012.radikal.ru/i319/1112/f2/b5ab9a0de26ft.jpg (http://radikal.ru/F/s012.radikal.ru/i319/1112/f2/b5ab9a0de26f.jpg.html)

Lines of different colors represent different types of trains on selected sites
Blue - AVE
Red - AVANT
Black - ALVIA, Euromed and Alaris

AVE - AVE
AL - Alvia
Ala - Alaris
E - Euromed

How to decipher the inscriptions:
for example near with Sevilla written BAVES103 - read as: B AVE S103 - from Barcelona to Sevilla, AVE, class 103
also
near with Jaen written CS121 - read as: C S121 - from Cadiz to Jaen (red line - AVANT), class 121.

Through this scheme, I'm going to create my route in order to ride on all types of high-speed trains in Spain

The scheme was drawn up by renfe.es and ru.* de.*, es.*, en.wikipedia.org. Please specify the inaccuracies and outright errors.

PS: I'm from Russia, I do not know English very well, so part of the message written by translate.google.ru
PSS: I made a similar scheme for Italy, but there are more questions. I also want to do for France.



good map and I give you further information that could help:

AVE and Avant goes always by High speed lines. Avant is designed for regional services as well as AVE is for long distance ones. The difference you will find is on trains, facilities and specially on prices.

Alvia takes partially high speed line and runs later by normal railway (different gauge).

You should consider also Orense-Santiago-La Coruña as HSL as far as it is done. It is opened with Spanish gauge until they arrive the rest of the HSL lines (avoiding two gauge changing), but times are faster.

There is also Avant there.

Rail Technology Center in Spain
YHf4UcMbprA

The longest network it is... and it has a special detail... different gauge. High speed network has European gauge, different to the Spanish normal railway.

Best trains... any passenger could decide.
They are not bad, but also not cheap and have few alternatives.

BTW, around the minute 3:00 the images were taken near my city but in the middle of nowhere.
^^Yes, maybe not cheap but everywhere in europe rail transport is expensive ...and in Spain is very high quality level of services independently whether it is high-speed or Cercanías ... i'm very interested about road and rail transport in Spain, and after the opening of high speed line between France and Spain, The UK authorities wants to direct train London-Madrid via Paris and Barcelona :cheers:

i'm very interested about road and rail transport in Spain, and after the opening of high speed line between France and Spain, The UK authorities wants to direct train London-Madrid via Paris and Barcelona :cheers:

where did you pick that up..?

thanks for the video Palmesano

after the opening of high speed line between France and Spain, The UK authorities wants to direct train London-Madrid via Paris and Barcelona :cheers:

No way.
There is no way that can be done in the near future, since there is a HSL gap between Perpignan and Nimes, that will make TGVs running from Barcelona to Paris from next year to have a travel time of around 6h/6h30.
An Eurostar would take too long to travel from London to Barcelona from 2012, some 7 hours.

Only when the HSL from Perpignan to Nimes will be open (allowing TGVs from Paris to Barcelona to shorten its travel time to 4h30) there will be a real possibility to seeing a London to Barcelona High Speed Train.

But London to Madrid via Barcelona, although technically feasible, would take too long even in that case.

The only possibility to have a London to Madrid HST is the construction of the HSL on the Atlantic side, via Bordeaux and the Basque Country.
And still I don´t find it very likely.

Consider the 7 hours train travel a night service...

The objective of such train clearly wouldn't be the end points (someone going from London to Madrid) but the middle ones, e.g. someone going from London to let's say Lille, and someone going from Madrid to Narbonne, someone going from Barcelona to Lyon etc. there's really no chance someone would use a night train from London to Madrid when there's the possibility of jumping on a cheap flight between these two cities. However, I think the demand for Madrid-Narbonne or further services (to Lyon the service is as well too long as that city too has a nice airport) must be close to zero, so I don't think it makes sense to introduce such a long service for a train, if there is a passanger wanting to do that trip he or she could very well change in Barcelona for example.

thanks for the video Palmesano

your welcome :)

The objective of such train clearly wouldn't be the end points (someone going from London to Madrid) but the middle ones, e.g. someone going from London to let's say Lille, and someone going from Madrid to Narbonne, someone going from Barcelona to Lyon etc. there's really no chance someone would use a night train from London to Madrid when there's the possibility of jumping on a cheap flight between these two cities. However, I think the demand for Madrid-Narbonne or further services (to Lyon the service is as well too long as that city too has a nice airport) must be close to zero, so I don't think it makes sense to introduce such a long service for a train, if there is a passanger wanting to do that trip he or she could very well change in Barcelona for example.

This could be possible in any European line except in Eurostar.

The Eurotunnel has special security requeriments that permets only Eurostar trains to get into. They exist only a few trains of this series. The most efficient explotation is to use them only in point-to-point services with a high demand.

It doesn't make sense to build an expensive special Eurotunnel series to have it running Madrid-Narbonne halfday instead of running several times trought the Eurotunnel every day.

TGVs, AVEs, ICEs... can't get into the Eurotunnel. New Siemens Eurostar trains are completly different from ICE or AVE's ones.

The French, Spanish, Belgian high-speed lines, and also HSL-1 (UK) are all closed at night for maintenance, to avoid disruptions on scheduled services, particularly over weekends (as it is common with non-HS railways).

High-speed train consists are very heavy (a TGV will weigh, empty of passengers, around 750kg/seat (seat, not passenger), don't think Renfe trains weigh much less). It would be anti-economical to fit them with even-more-heavy sleeper cars, individual toilets, greatly reducing capacity/train. Unless fares skyrocketed, but then passengers would avoid the service.

The French, Spanish, Belgian high-speed lines, and also HSL-1 (UK) are all closed at night for maintenance, to avoid disruptions on scheduled services, particularly over weekends (as it is common with non-HS railways).

AFAIK HS-1 is not closed at night. It is even planned to run freight on the line at night. Fitting a few night trains would not be a big challenge.
in France they do close tracks at night (and during the day), and Belgium has indeed picked up this bad habit too. However it's not done in Germany or Switzerland for example. Common with non HS railways is that they are available 24*7


High-speed train consists are very heavy (a TGV will weigh, empty of passengers, around 750kg/seat (seat, not passenger), don't think Renfe trains weigh much less).

In fact, high speed trains are not that heavy. They certainly aren't "very heavy". They are certainly a lot lighter than freight trains.


It would be anti-economical to fit them with even-more-heavy sleeper cars, individual toilets, greatly reducing capacity/train. Unless fares skyrocketed, but then passengers would avoid the service.

The Chinese seem to disagree with you here...

Anyway, you don't need individual toilets. A Talgo "Trenotel" type of train is not heavier than a HST, can go 220 kph, and could even go faster. That's what you would use.

TGVs, AVEs, ICEs... can't get into the Eurotunnel. New Siemens Eurostar trains are completly different from ICE or AVE's ones.

The new Siemens Eurostar trains are basically 16 car versions of the Velaro (which already runs in Spain...). It is intended that the DB Velaro's will be permitted in the Channel tunnel too. And I'd imagine that Alstom would be interested in getting its AGV accepted for Cross Channel services too.
Things are definitely changing here.

In fact, high speed trains are not that heavy. They certainly aren't "very heavy". They are certainly a lot lighter than freight trains.

You didn't understand my argument. The cost of moving a train at a given speed is highly dependent on its weight.

The weight of passengers and their luggage is usually less than 10% of the overall train weight with usual load factors on a high-speed train. Using sleepers greatly reduces the capacity of train, and thus increases the weight/passenger ratio. As less passengers don't put much of a dent in the overall train weight, it makes the costs of hypothetical "high speed sleeper trains" astronomical.

The Chinese seem to disagree with you here... Semi-slave labor (wage-wise) + opaque accountancy standards.

Anyway, you don't need individual toilets.

A night train needs showers, and they must be fit individually to each sleeper compartment.

A Talgo "Trenotel" type of train is not heavier than a HST, can go 220 kph, and could even go faster. That's what you would use.

It is not heavier, but its capacity is much lower.

The new Siemens Eurostar trains are basically 16 car versions of the Velaro (which already runs in Spain...). It is intended that the DB Velaro's will be permitted in the Channel tunnel too. And I'd imagine that Alstom would be interested in getting its AGV accepted for Cross Channel services too.
Things are definitely changing here.
No. This Velaro and AGV versions for the Eurostar are very very different from the standard version.

You could search what are the requeriments to cross the Eurotunnel and see why TGVs have never arrive London while the've arrived a lot of foreing destinations.

High-speed train consists are very heavy (a TGV will weigh, empty of passengers, around 750kg/seat (seat, not passenger), don't think Renfe trains weigh much less). It would be anti-economical to fit them with even-more-heavy sleeper cars, individual toilets, greatly reducing capacity/train. Unless fares skyrocketed, but then passengers would avoid the service.
Spain has high speed night trains capable to run at 250 km/h. They have never passed 200 km/h in commercial services but they could. They were a fail, but the problem is supposed to be the lack of tourist places, 'cause the only have first class beds.

The following article states that the Paris-Madrid will be 5 and a half hours once the lines are up in service. This will be in Autumn 2012 as the high speed line from Barcelona to Figueras will be completed then.

http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2010/07/04/andalucia-to-london-in-ten-hours-by-train/

^^ Impossible, because there will be still no completed Pepingran-Marseille HSL.

Spain has high speed night trains capable to run at 250 km/h. They have never passed 200 km/h in commercial services but they could. They were a fail, but the problem is supposed to be the lack of tourist places, 'cause the only have first class beds.

The issue is not designing a train capable or speeding 250km/h+. That is trivial.

You recognized the problem on your sentence: lack of economic feasibility. If fares are too high, there will be not enough passenger. If they are low enough to attract ridership, there will not be enough income to cover the train direct operational costs. So it is an unfeasible system financially, and I don't think night trains are nowhere any priority for subsidization (it is a luxury, a niche market for travel, not a more basic need like hauling people from their homes to their workplaces in other cities).

^^ Impossible, because there will be still no completed Pepingran-Marseille HSL.

Ah I see, there is still some work to be done on the French side. Thanks for that. It still looks very exciting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Perpignan-Figueres

The Madrid–Barcelona high-speed rail line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid%E2%80%93Barcelona_high-speed_rail_line) is being extended from Barcelona to Figueres. Services are expected to run from Perpignan to Girona starting in 2012[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Perpignan-Figueres#cite_note-Open2014-10)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Perpignan-Figueres#cite_note-13) and Paris to Barcelona.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Perpignan-Figueres#cite_note-ticketsale-11) Trains will be able to travel at high speed from Madrid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid) to Perpignan, and services from Lyon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon) to Barcelona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona) in under four hours[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Perpignan-Figueres#cite_note-14) are planned, probably in 2014,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Perpignan-Figueres#cite_note-fox-7) using the classic line in France between Perpignan and Nîmes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%AEmes). A new company jointly owned by RENFE and SNCF is to be formed to run services between Paris and Madrid. Ten new trains are to be purchased at a cost of €300 million.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Perpignan-Figueres#cite_note-15)
In May 2010 it was announced that tendering had started for the Nîmes–Montpellier bypass route. This will be the first stage in the link between the Spanish high-speed network and LGV Méditerranée. The line will carry a mix of freight and high-speed trains. It is expected that the line will open in 2016

A night train needs showers, and they must be fit individually to each sleeper compartment.



It is not heavier, but its capacity is much lower.

Look at the CityNightLine of Germans. Which operates to Netherlands, too.

They get a car to have 60 berths - 10 6 berth compartments (lower, middle and upper berths). Plus 2 toilets and 3 separate washrooms - but no showers - to be shared by all 60 passengers.

Yes, CityNightLine also has luxury cars which have fewer berths per compartments, but that CityNightLine also has seat cars on overnight trains - which surprisingly have fewer than 70 seats.

Meaning that sleepers do NOT have much lower capacity than seat trains.

The following article states that the Paris-Madrid will be 5 and a half hours once the lines are up in service. This will be in Autumn 2012 as the high speed line from Barcelona to Figueras will be completed then.

http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2010/07/04/andalucia-to-london-in-ten-hours-by-train/

A pipe dream. Once the whole line is HSR the distance between Madrid and Paris will be about 1600 km. At 5 hour and 30 min that means the trains will have to run at 320-330 km/h nonstop, achieving an average comercial speed of 290 km/h.

Today Paris-Marseille has an average comercial speed of 250 km/h and Madrid-Barcelona around 240 km/h for the nonstop trains. This means both these streches will have to increase their average comercial speed significantly.

More reasonable would be a travel time of 6 hours and 30 minutes for the direct trains between Madrid and Paris and this only once the whole line is HSR (2020-2025 at the earliest). One also have to remember that both Barcelona and Girona lack a by-pass, this alone penalize the travel time some 15-20 minutes.

With a travel time of 6 hours and 30 minutes only absolute train enthusiasts will use this service, it will basically not be profitable at all unless air travel become impossible due to oil shortage or some volcanic ash block the airspace.

This means that the trains will have to make intermediate stops along the route, for every stop you have to add 10-15 minutes extra traveltime and if your name is RENFE then you have to add 30 minutes for every stop just so you can be sure not to break the timetable ;)

Opening ceremony today: Ourense-Santiago-Coruña axis of the North-Northwest HSL (LAV Galicia).

http://www.adif.es/en_US/infraestructuras/lineas_de_alta_velocidad/madrid_galicia/madrid_galicia.shtml

http://tll.kewego.com/t/0/0505/154x114_iLyROoaf2M2O_2_kew1308826172.jpg (http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoaf2M2O.html)
LAV GALICIA/EJE OURENSE SANTIAGO (Junio 2011) - Adif (http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoaf2M2O.html)

The following article states that the Paris-Madrid will be 5 and a half hours once the lines are up in service. This will be in Autumn 2012 as the high speed line from Barcelona to Figueras will be completed then.

http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2010/07/04/andalucia-to-london-in-ten-hours-by-train/

NO.
That´s Paris to Barcelona.

^^ Impossible, because there will be still no completed Pepingran-Marseille HSL.

No, definitely not from "Pepingran" to Marseille. :lol:
Perpignan to Nimes, you must mean.
Nimes to Marseille and Nimes to Paris HLSs are already operating.

No. This Velaro and AGV versions for the Eurostar are very very different from the standard version.

You could search what are the requeriments to cross the Eurotunnel and see why TGVs have never arrive London while the've arrived a lot of foreing destinations.


K is correct. The restrictions on units using the channel tunnel has recently been changed to allow other types of units. The reason TGVs have never provided services to London is historical issue now, and irrelevant to changes in the near future.

The reason why the restrictions have been altered is because

a) It prevents competition
b) The restrictions caused more safety issues than they solved.

I would post links but I will refer you to your own advice - you could do a search.

Opening ceremony today: Ourense-Santiago-Coruña axis of the North-Northwest HSL (LAV Galicia).

http://www.adif.es/en_US/infraestructuras/lineas_de_alta_velocidad/madrid_galicia/madrid_galicia.shtml

http://tll.kewego.com/t/0/0505/154x114_iLyROoaf2M2O_2_kew1308826172.jpg (http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoaf2M2O.html)
LAV GALICIA/EJE OURENSE SANTIAGO (Junio 2011) - Adif (http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoaf2M2O.html)http://tll.kewego.com/t/0/0910/154x114_iLyROoafrZtk_2.jpg (http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoafrZtk.html)
La Palabra, La Obra. LAV Ourense - Santiago - A Coruña - Adif (http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoafrZtk.html)

K is correct. The restrictions on units using the channel tunnel has recently been changed to allow other types of units.
You were right. Something new to learn.

This is how the new Ourense HSR station will look like.A work of Norman Foster..

http://www.abc.es/Media/201112/12/ourense--644x362.jpg

http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/default/2011/12/12/00121323693076957114988/Foto/O17N9390.jpg

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/pininou2/INTERMODAL_OURENSE/OU-Lasburgas111111Panel1.jpg

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/pininou2/INTERMODAL_OURENSE/OU-Lasburgas111111Panel2.jpg

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/pininou2/INTERMODAL_OURENSE/OU-Lasburgas111111Panelv2.jpg

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/pininou2/INTERMODAL_OURENSE/OU-Lasburgas111111Panel4.jpg

On the other hand,tomorrow will be put into service the new Logroño railway station which in the future will give service to AVE in this city..

pDprOoudmyo

Pictures.

http://www.larioja.com/multimedia/fotos/local/89654-nueva-estacion-0.html

great! and good election compared with the others


and great the new station in logroño :)

error

Here two video of the first commercial travel between A Coruña-Santiago-Ourense (Galice) on the North-Nortwest high speed line. The line is ready for travels at 250km/h speed between A Coruña and Santiago, and 350km/h Between Santiago and Ourense, but this travel is at top speed of 220km/h. Also the line between Olmedo and Ourense is under construction. Madrid - Olmedo is already working.

Thanks to the forumer Asannei that recorded it. He has a lot of train videos, just seek on youtube.

hnYXz0e0-Ts

iEZTG_8Jp3U

I just saw that Renfe had reduced the fastest scheduled travel time on the Madrid/Barcelona line to 2 hr 30 min.

Are there any other AVE routes that received an improved timetable?

I just saw that Renfe had reduced the fastest scheduled travel time on the Madrid/Barcelona line to 2 hr 30 min.

Are there any other AVE routes that received an improved timetable?

In the immediate time the Madrid-Segovia-Valladolid line :)

I am very contented, that opened a new line in España and railway station project in Ourense is great ¡¡!!

I just saw that Renfe had reduced the fastest scheduled travel time on the Madrid/Barcelona line to 2 hr 30 min.

Are there any other AVE routes that received an improved timetable?



But for trains with at least one stop (there are only five non-stops trains in weekly days, rest of them with stops), time reduced is less... nowadays. It will change soon.


Line to Valladolid will change soon.


Line to Sevilla, as far as I know, cannot change because maximum is 300 km/h (was built in 1992 with that specification). What I do not know is the branch Cordoba-Malaga.

What I do not know is the branch Cordoba-Malaga.

The HSL Cordoba-Malaga is built for 350 km/h, but it hasn't been announced if the're going to increase the speed.

Also, are the 112 series going at 310 km/h now? Or the 103 series only?

Bad news - the occupancy rates on the new Galicia stretch of the high speed line, are very low. This may mean less investment in new lines, as Spain needs to convince foreign investors that it has its spending under control.
(article in spanish)

http://ave-renfe.edreams.es/ave-galicia/primer-mes-del-ave-ourense-santiago/

Bad news - the occupancy rates on the new Galicia stretch of the high speed line, are very low. This may mean less investment in new lines, as Spain needs to convince foreign investors that it has its spending under control.
(article in spanish)

http://ave-renfe.edreams.es/ave-galicia/primer-mes-del-ave-ourense-santiago/

Occupancies are very low, but the number of passengers that travel from Santiago to Ourense is 7 times the passengers that travel before the HSL opened.

Between this two cities few people traveled by train. The journey spent 2 hours when you could get there in 1h30min by car.
I think that now, spending 38min, people will start to use the train, but it is need some time to have better ocupancies.

Otherwise, the trains used in the line have 280 seats, too much (so that the occupancy looks like it is worst).

Occupancies are very low, but the number of passengers that travel from Santiago to Ourense is 7 times the passengers that travel before the HSL opened.

Between this two cities few people traveled by train. The journey spent 2 hours when you could get there in 1h30min by car.
I think that now, spending 38min, people will start to use the train, but it is need some time to have better ocupancies.

Otherwise, the trains used in the line have 280 seats, too much (so that the occupancy looks like it is worst).

Yes, let's hope that the numbers improve.
I read the fast line will go to Zamora in 2012? Is this correct?

Yes, let's hope that the numbers improve.
I read the fast line will go to Zamora in 2012? Is this correct?


yes, Zamora and Alicante :)

Otherwise, the trains used in the line have 280 seats, too much (so that the occupancy looks like it is worst).

280 seats mean 4 coaches, a quite small train...

280 seats mean 4 coaches, a quite small train...

It depends. Here, in Galicia, a place where a train spent double to get to a point compared with a car, people is not used to go by train. Now, it is faster and it can improve it's figures.

yes, Zamora and Alicante :)

Currently the only one sure is Girona, in Barcelona - Figueres HSL, linking for the first time Spanish high speed standard gauge network to French standard gauge network, and thus to the rest of Europe.

Zamora and Alicante lines are a little delayed, I don't think they are going to open this year, although I hope I'm wrong.

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i love that sound the train/s/ make at 0.35

These marketing campaigns by Renfe are ludricus. They already have captured 80% of the bussiness market so that one is saturated. The turist market is overpriced by 30% atlest and untill they figure that out, trains will continue to run half empty, no marketing campaign in the world will change that.

Their real problem is that they have to few trains and they run to far between. It is time to open up the network for competing operators now, renfe only use 12% of the available slots on the Madrid-Barcelona route, some 40 out of 360. So we have a brand new line sitting idle :bash:

These marketing campaigns by Renfe are ludricus. They already have captured 80% of the bussiness market so that one is saturated. The turist market is overpriced by 30% atlest and untill they figure that out, trains will continue to run half empty, no marketing campaign in the world will change that.

Their real problem is that they have to few trains and they run to far between. It is time to open up the network for competing operators now, renfe only use 12% of the available slots on the Madrid-Barcelona route, some 40 out of 360. So we have a brand new line sitting idle :bash:



There is concurrence in freight (I think that seven different companies but not sure) but still not at passengers.

Adif (public company for rail infrastructures including stations and lines), as an example, offers you the possibility to check if a train is on time or has an incident and has delay. In its database they indicate number of train, station of depart, arrival, time... and company!!!!. Always the company is "renfe" but they are ready to have different ones.

In Spanish threads we make questions about what will happen with a new operator.
Renfe has focused in a high level passenger. Good trains, a lot of services included in the price (maybe you do not need all of them) but expensive fares.

And it is easy to think that for a (for instance) less than two hours journey you can erase bar-wagon (one passenger wagon more, more seats, less cost per seat) and only some snack and drink machines, less services (just travel) and still run 300 km/h on half price.

That day they will use a lot of slots.


When Madrid-Barcelona high speed line was opened, they knew that someone traveling by car (specially for stations in the middle) will use the train, less use for planes (Zaragoza airport left having planes to Madrid after 52 years) but... bus will remain. Why??? because the fares were so different that they type of passenger is different.

Try to put fare in half price than now, just without services but the same speed and be sure that the bus will be afraid!!!

They should allow some private operators offering low-cost services in Spain. Trains without bars/restaurants, less toilets, restriction on how much luggage you can take it, online ticket sales only etc.

The process to open the market to other companies has started, but I don't know why, it's too slow...
Until 2017 we won't see another company with passengers services.

They should allow some private operators offering low-cost services in Spain. Trains without bars/restaurants, less toilets, restriction on how much luggage you can take it, online ticket sales only etc.



Just... take any railway in the Spanish forum, write that sentences (even in English) and you will, quickly receive answers with "+1", "+2", etc...

Hello, could anyone here summarize how are the construction works progressing? I am specially interrested in Badajos-Caceres, Sevilla-Granada and Santiago de Compostela-Madrid. This map says that many sections in those routes are under constructions:

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/iberian-peninsula/iberian-peninsula.gif

So, is the map updated? Simply all those sectors in construction? Any ideas about the plans to finish off the lines, when segments will be open, etc? thanks a lot =)

It depends of the section.

- Badajos-Caceres: They're working, but there are in the first stages of the works.

- Sevilla-Granada: The works are going very well, some of them are near to be finish, except in two sections: the access to Seville a the Loja's bypass. They are supossed to be opened without this sections, but it isn't confirmed.

-Santiago-Madrid: Santiago-Ourense were opened in last december, Ourense-Zamora it's near to start the works and Zamora-Madrid have works in progress and are near to be finished.

Hello, could anyone here summarize how are the construction works progressing? I am specially interrested in Badajos-Caceres, Sevilla-Granada and Santiago de Compostela-Madrid. This map says that many sections in those routes are under constructions:


The Alicante-Albacete section will probably open at the end of this year (so that there will be a direct service from Alicante-Madrid and viceversa).

Hello, could anyone here summarize how are the construction works progressing? I am specially interrested in Badajos-Caceres, Sevilla-Granada and Santiago de Compostela-Madrid. This map says that many sections in those routes are under constructions:

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/iberian-peninsula/iberian-peninsula.gif

So, is the map updated? Simply all those sectors in construction? Any ideas about the plans to finish off the lines, when segments will be open, etc? thanks a lot =)

A good map of Spain's rail infrastructure is the following one, courtesy of geotren.es: http://rfe.geotren.es/ Right mouse button to zoom in on it. Ancho means Gauge, En contruccion means Under contruction and the abbreviations DIA, EI etc. have to do with phases of the project. I think DIA means Declaracion de Impacto Ambiental (Environmental impact of the project) but other Spanish rail 'frikis' can better explain that probably.

hqECfuaBkSQ&list=UUgf2bsqZ6atFfJKEBojB9wg&index=3&feature=plcp

21uSGnbX3LI

tnEmpp1KoM4

dzQ_11DoKoQ

Malaga - Cordoba

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8223.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8224.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8226.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8227.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8228.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8230.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8231.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8232.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8235.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8236.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8237.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8238.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8239.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/andalucia/20110611/IMG_8240.jpg

^^
thanks :D

The press here in Catalunya has reported more delays for the last stretches of the high-speed line from Barcelona to Figueres, mentioning a tentative inauguration in March 2013. The reason for the delay is that the contracts for the track laying and installation of overhead wiring have not been closed yet for both the urban stretch in Barcelona as well as Girona. The central government has promised to reduce the delays to a minimum and obviously blames the previous national government from Zapatero.

More information from el Periodico in Spanish here (http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/sociedad/ave-sufre-otro-reves-retrasa-hasta-2013-1531221)

video de ADIF del megaViaducto de Archidona del eje Transversal de Andalucia

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20 years of high speed in Spain


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^^ great video

I don't understand a single word, but I am deeply impressed by Spain's progress infrastructure wise over the last 20 years.

Somethings have changed in 20 years

Some plane connections have been gone only because rail is faster (considering a trip city centre to city centre and thinking in not boarding in advance in a train)

Some people have decided to live several km. away knowing that in less than one hour they will be in city centre.

Some cities with poor connections but now with a station have grown.

If nice connections (enough trains per day to choose), most of bussiness trips are made by train and not by plane

Train is not used only to travel corner to corner... people start thinking in connections only 150 km or similar as well as commuter trains.


But... there are still too many things to do. In 1992 the railway in Spain was awful. Today we have a luxurious service in some ways but an awful services in other ways.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/capitantz/6966185000/in/photostream
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7117/6966185000_7d442c0b48_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7275/6966437720_ffd8c67fee_b.jpg

Diesel powered hybrid high speed train Talgo.

^^

25kV 50Hz AC: 250 km/h
3kV DC: 220 km/h
Diesel: 180 km/h

is it also variable gauge? where will they use them?

I think it is for Madrid-La Coruña and Madrid-Vigo.

Last year they opened Orense-Santiago-La Coruña as high speed but the gauge is Spanish. It is ready to be changed in any time to international gauge but until they will have connection with the rest of the network, only Spanish gauge.

So a Madrid-La Coruña will run Madrid-Medina del campo in High speed line and international gauge, Medina-Orense in Spanish gauge and normal line and finnally Orense-La Coruña in Spanish gauge but high speed line.

This line is under construction and as far as they will arrive to Orense, the gauge until La Coruña will be changed to international one.

thx

awesome progress for the last 20 years, the result of clever economic policies
i hope poland will be like this in less than 20 years, although there are two differences: 1, while spain had a non-existent railway network polands traditional network is really dense and good (comparatively) and 2, smaller distances

Two problems to avoid in Spain:

1- Network is based on radial axes. It is very easy to go from Madrid to anyway but except several axes, very difficult to have good frequencies in other asex
2- There are different gauges. New lines have the international gauge. It is still not linked to the rest of Europe but the day it will be (stimated 2014-15), someone will be able to cross by high speed corner to corner in Europe.
But in ALL stations with high speed, they need different quais for high speed and for normal rail.
As an example, in my city, quais 1 to 4 are international gauge and 5 to 8 are Spanish gauge. There is an infrastructure in the surroundings to change from Spanish gauge to international... but inside the station, every train to its rail and not upside down.

this is... it is not as in other countries where the high speed line starts in the nearby of the cities. In Spain the line has to go to every city centre because trains can run only on one or other gauge (it is possible to change but takes several minutes)

1- Network is based on radial axes. It is very easy to go from Madrid to anyway but except several axes, very difficult to have good frequencies in other asex


There is the "Euromed" corridor, but I think it would be worthwile to extend that all the way south and then west along the coast.

The pupulation distribution of Spain lends itself well to a "wheel" kind of network, with the hub in Madrid and the rim following the coasts.


2- There are different gauges. New lines have the international gauge. It is still not linked to the rest of Europe but the day it will be (stimated 2014-15), someone will be able to cross by high speed corner to corner in Europe.


Different gauges shouldn't be a big problem. Switzerland has different gauges to. The solution is coordination and cross platform transfers.

Different gauges shouldn't be a big problem. Switzerland has different gauges to. The solution is coordination and cross platform transfers.

Improper comparison. Meter gauge railways in Switzerland are secondary and present in minor lines.

In Spain, there are two overlapping networks of Iberian and standard gauge. I think, though, the decision to build AVE in standard gauge is paying off and certainly will in the medium term: it lowers costs of rolling stock, allow through trains without variable gauge bogies etc.

One overlooked issue is how hilly/mountainous Spain actually is, and how the old rail network was built on cheap compared to Italy or Germany, for instance. The travel time gains by AVE in Spain are the largest in Europe, like slashing travel times to less than half of previous situation.

Improper comparison. Meter gauge railways in Switzerland are secondary and present in minor lines.

That's not the point I was making...

My point is that for passenger traffic multiple gauge isn't a huge issue, as passengers can change trains (even though RENFE seems to be largely unaware of the concept...)

There is the "Euromed" corridor, but I think it would be worthwile to extend that all the way south and then west along the coast.

The pupulation distribution of Spain lends itself well to a "wheel" kind of network, with the hub in Madrid and the rim following the coasts.



Different gauges shouldn't be a big problem. Switzerland has different gauges to. The solution is coordination and cross platform transfers.



Considering long distance only, since Madrid, trains to points with high speed line are available at least one every two hours more or less... but they can be even every one hour. Madrid-Guadalajara-Calatayud-Zaragoza-Lérida-Tarragona-Barcelona, Madrid-Cuenca-Utiel-Valencia, Madrid-Cuenca-Albacete, Madrid-Toledo, Madrid-Ciudad Real-Puertollano-Cordoba-Sevilla, Madrid-Ciudad Real-Puertollano-Cordoba-Antequera-Malaga and Madrid-Segovia-Valladolid.

Furthermore, there are several trains with a gauge changing from Madrid to Pamplona, Vitoria, Irun, Granada, Alicante, Gijón, etc, etc, etc, etc... that uses partially the high speed infrastructure and later they run slowly.

And there are four trains from Barcelona to the south with non-stop at Madrid (there is one with non stop Zaragoza-Cordoba that makes this trip in less than three hours).


Apart of this, only the Mediterranean (Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante) and the Ebro corridor (Barcelona-Zaragoza-Pamplona/Logroño) have more than six long distance trains per day. Sometimes you have two near cities with only one or two trains per day, so people choose the bus!!!!


That's not the point I was making...

My point is that for passenger traffic multiple gauge isn't a huge issue, as passengers can change trains (even though RENFE seems to be largely unaware of the concept...)

As far as I know, changing gauge costs to Renfe 100 eur/train everytime so they minimize as much as they can.

In Spain there are more gauges. In the north, all the line from Hendaye (France) to Ferrol (Galicia) and a branch Bilbao-Leon is a different one, narrower than European one. It is managed by another entreprise (FEVE - narrow gauge Spanish railways) and in the commuter network of Madrid, the line C9 has a very specific gauge. It is only for that line that runs on mountains.

At Valencian region and Catalonia we can find also several commuter lines with a narrower gauge and should we look... we can find more.

On the other hand, the line L1 of Barcelona metro has the Spanish gauge because we first stations were built it was though as a prolongation of the current railway.

The works in Barcelona on the new HSR station is still moving forward. Here is one more timelaps of the works. If they can find funds for the construction, maybe the new station will open by the end of this decade, but that is a big maybe. The location for the station is the open pit visible at the start of the video and 1min 10 sec into the video.

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Orense - Santiago

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Santiago - La coruña

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There is an article here (in Spanish) stating that Renfe have bought up 217 high speed units, when they don't even need 140? Is this true?

I assume the units are being held for the new openings (Barcelona to Girona, Madrid to Alicante, Granada to Sevelle etc)

http://www.eleconomista.es/economia/noticias/3943998/05/12/Renfe-se-ha-gastado-1400-millones-en-trenes-de-alta-velocidad-innecesarios.html

There is an article here (in Spanish) stating that Renfe have bought up 217 high speed units, when they don't even need 140? Is this true?

I assume the units are being held for the new openings (Barcelona to Girona, Madrid to Alicante, Granada to Sevelle etc)

http://www.eleconomista.es/economia/noticias/3943998/05/12/Renfe-se-ha-gastado-1400-millones-en-trenes-de-alta-velocidad-innecesarios.html

You ask and answer. :|

BTW, keep an eye to the possible liberalization of the Spanish HSR in the coming time, there´s talk about that.

There are reports in the German press, that non of the proposed openings for this years end will take place. Neither Alicante, nor Pajares Tunnel, Valladollid-Leon or Barcelona-Figueras will ready in time. Can someone comment on that?

With the current meltdown of the spanish economy there is little money left for railways. However, many of the current projects are advanced so the delays won't be to long, a year or 2 for the most advanced projects. If there are money to spend then Barcelona-Figueras and Albacete-Alicante will open next year, both are 95% finished. Pajares maybe later (2014?) and Valladolid-León/Burgos probably 2015 but could open 2014 if they find enough funds.

Today, priority is for Medina-Orense. The other streches will have a little delay

Can someone give exact dates as now planned for the following sections:

Barcelona - Figueras
Camp de Taragona - Calafat
Albacete - Alacant
Chord Valencia - Sevilla
Olmedo - Zamora
Santiago - Redondela (- Vigo)
Valladollid - Leon
Tunel de Pajares

All these sections should be very far advanced and close to inauguration.

As others said, there are no official dates yet, so we can only give you aproximate completion dates. The most advanced projects are:

Chord Valencia - Sevilla (Yeles bypass): It is finished (just 1 track, but it will be enough for now), waiting for trains to use it.
Barcelona - Figueres: 2013
Albacete - Alacant: 2013

The rest of projects are a little more delayed, I mean tracks have not been laid yet. Nobody knows when they will open, but I'm sure some of them will do it before 2015. I would say that among them the most advanced one is Olmedo - Zamora, and perhaps the line could open in 2013. Valladollid - Leon / Burgos is also in an advanced stage.

Unfortunateky I don't have enough information regarding the current state of Tunel de Pajares and Santiago - Vigo, but none of them will open before 2014.

Finally, I'm sure Camp de Taragona - Vandellós won't open before 2015, works on this line are really delayed and until now the pace has been really slow.

Camp de Tarragona - Vandellos will be surely the longest civil work at Spain. It has about 15-16 years old... of works.

Yes, it seems like the times are tough in Spain and it will almost certainly be worse before it becomes better... Lot of unneeded things (houses mostly) were built in Spain during the last 15 years, but I don't think train lines (most of them anyway) are among them. This infrastructure will be used long after we are all dead from old age. After all most of the conventional rail lines in Europe were built in late 19th century and are still in use.

Yes, it seems like the times are tough in Spain and it will almost certainly be worse before it becomes better... Lot of unneeded things (houses mostly) were built in Spain during the last 15 years, but I don't think train lines (most of them anyway) are among them. This infrastructure will be used long after we are all dead from old age. After all most of the conventional rail lines in Europe were built in late 19th century and are still in use.


At some point during the next 2 decades, freight transports will shift to rail for financial reasons. In Spain 95% of all freight transports are done with lorrys. So there is a bright future for rail freight in Spain.

So there is a bright future for rail freight in Spain.

Only if Spain (and Portugal) will convert all their broad gauge lines to standard gauge.

Only if Spain (and Portugal) will convert all their broad gauge lines to standard gauge.

Do the narrow gauge passenger lines make the existing wide gauge lines less full of passenger traffic?

Passengers can quickly and cheaply change train, goods cannot.

Passengers can quickly and cheaply change train, goods cannot.

But they need not do so inside Spain. How much is being done to improve goods train traffic inside Spain?

Passengers can quickly and cheaply change train, goods cannot.


Goods can... but have to change wheels on freight wagons so there is not too much international freight railway traffic.

Furthermore... Maximum length at Spain is about 450 m and at France I think it is 700 m.

I listen about exporting wagons... as well as you pay per train you try to maximize. So you send two trains to the border, get about 700m train to France and leave 200m there. Two trains more... and leave 200m (now 400m) there waiting for the next one...
Spanish lines are being prepared for longer trains but only some lines and it is not easy


As an example, in my region, the main entreprise makes cars. Depending of the destination they send by ship since San Sebastian (Atlantic), since Tarragona (Mediterranean) or all by rail via Port Bou.

For car importation there are several points for logistic distribution railway-truck for Spain and Portugal (and that means international trains arrive there).

They are almost shared by a big number of companies.

Near my city you have this point
https://maps.google.es/maps?q=zuera&hl=es&ie=UTF8&ll=41.875601,-0.760288&spn=0.008676,0.021136&sll=41.869183,-0.788164&sspn=0.555291,1.352692&t=h&hnear=Zuera,+Zaragoza,+Arag%C3%B3n&z=16


But in general, only cars, some civil works companies and very big goods are carried by train.
Anyway... there is no problem to change the wheels but for the logistic point of view, it is not practical, so used when the price difference is great.

Only if Spain (and Portugal) will convert all their broad gauge lines to standard gauge.

When the lorry business start going bust on large scale, then there is little choice but shifting to rail freight. The gauge change will be enforced on the Spanish government by the industry. It will be very simple, either Spain provide a decent freight transport network or the industry will move out of Spain.

One thing is very clear though, the Spanish lorry industry is a bubble that will burst very hard when the economy contract in combination with increased transport costs. We saw a small forerunnet to what is coming during the summer 2008 when Spanish truckers tried to bring the country to a halt. it will be ten times worse this time around.

But they need not do so inside Spain. How much is being done to improve goods train traffic inside Spain?

Sure, gauge it is not a problem if the origin and destination of the goods are on the same gauge network. But a lot of freight is exchanged between the Iberian Peninsula and the rest of Europe, and in this traffic rail has around 3% share or so (maybe 4, maybe 5, but not much more). I have in my head the numbers of 3 millions of tonnes a year of rail freight between Spain and France border, and 70 by road (before the crisis). I cannot find the sources, but it's a very low share for rail.

Sure, gauge it is not a problem if the origin and destination of the goods are on the same gauge network. But a lot of freight is exchanged between the Iberian Peninsula and the rest of Europe, and in this traffic rail has around 3% share or so (maybe 4, maybe 5, but not much more). I have in my head the numbers of 3 millions of tonnes a year of rail freight between Spain and France border, and 70 by road (before the crisis). I cannot find the sources, but it's a very low share for rail.



I think percentage is.... even smaller!! but inside Spain the percentage is not greater than exportation. This is... there is no culture about railway freight. The entreprise that has it, doesn't matter to have a different gauge to export. They will prefer the same one, of course... but it is an algorithm about travel time, price, etc... and different gauge is only one thing more to take in consideration

If we are talking specifically about high speed lines then are these really suited for freight traffic? In most countries freight is not even allowed on such lines due to increased wear and drastically decreased capacity for passenger trains...

P.S. The cheapest way of moving goods around is still by a ship.

To make a Frankfurt-Madrid train you need at least two locomotives and either two sets of wagons (if goods are transshipped) or special wagons that can change boogies or axles. That's expensive, and few companies want to do that, so for these routes railway is attractive only for some specific goods like cars, raw materials (coal, grain, ...), maybe some container traffic but not too much else.

Spain needs broad gauge lines more than new HSLs, in my opinion, and this could be done converting the existing and often nearly empty broad gauge railways.

@Sunfuns: Spanish HSL are not suited for freight, except some stretches like Barcelona-Figueras-Perpignan and the Variante de Pajares. Although I doubt there will be capacity issues on lines like Olmedo-Ourense (Madrid-Galicia) or Palencia-León.

P.S. The cheapest way of moving goods around is still by a ship.

And about half of all intra EU freight goes by ship...

Yeah... but not all origin/destinations are besides a harbour

Cycling through my neighbourhood the other day I decided to cross the Gran Via and check out the status of the Sagrera TAV High-speed railway station, currently under construction in Barcelona's Sant Marti District. Below some pictures I took during my cycle route:

Coming up from Bac de Roda to the Pont de Treball, looking to the right:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/7559/20120616185858.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/20120616185858.jpg/)

Standing on the bridge looking down in the direction of the Besòs river (maybe someone knows what the hole is for)
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/867/20120616190011.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/440/20120616190011.jpg/)

Standing in the middle of the bridge, still looking towards the north:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5313/20120616190104.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/442/20120616190104.jpg/)

On the side of La Meridiana the view of the tunnel taking the UIC lines from La Sagrera to Sants via Mallorca (There is a hole of some 6 meters below the concrete slab I think):
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1696/20120616190219.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/20120616190219.jpg/)

On the other side of the bridge, the UIC-tunnel going underneath Carrer de Mallorca (I think they moved the building slightly to enable the tunnel entering Mallorca)
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5662/20120616190408.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/20120616190408.jpg/)

The usual information provided by the state:
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6690/20120616190510.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/20120616190510.jpg/)

Cycling all the way around the building site and on the bridge, looking towards the center, that was recently built to replace one they tore down a couple of meters further towards the south:
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7485/20120616191305.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/20120616191305.jpg/)

One without rodalies train:
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9326/20120616191317.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/20120616191317.jpg/)

And some tunnel elements I found when looking for the extension of Metro Line 4 from La Pau via new station Santander to La Sagrera TAV (looks kind of left to rot):
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/8141/20120616192211.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/20120616192211.jpg/)

&

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9195/20120616192314.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/20120616192314.jpg/)

Hope you enjoyed it.

To my non-expert eyes it looks like years from completion...

To my non-expert eyes it looks like years from completion...

Most optimistic forecast is 2016 but really 2020 and beyond is more realistic considering the current economic situation. This is after all a 2 billion euro project that most likely will end up more expensive due to delays. Sants which is a much smaller train station took 12 years to finish (1969-1981) without the hotel. This station is a lot larger and include workshops and service areas for trains, work began in 2008 and I would not be surprised if this project took 15-20 years to finish.

This PDF gives you an idea of the scope o this project

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/upload/multimedia/1062.pdf

Hi. :)

New AVE direct service between Valencia and Seville, service started a week ago or so.

Calls at Cuenca, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordova.

Travel time 3h50min from Seville to Valencia.

Skips Madrid thanks to the new by-pass in Torrejon de Velasco (southern Madrid).

For now, there´s one per day, as it is a new service, service might increase if it sells ok.

Now you know. :)

p.s: Renfe sells tickets Valencia-Malaga, but you have to change trains at Cordova station.

And thanks to the Formula 1 race at Valencia, trains arrive full two weekends ago!!

Change trains at Cordoba are for Malaga with a 10 minutes delay.

Hi. :)

New AVE direct service between Valencia and Seville, service started a week ago or so.

Calls at Cuenca, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordova.

Travel time 3h50min from Seville to Valencia.

Skips Madrid thanks to the new by-pass in Torrejon de Velasco (southern Madrid).

For now, there´s one per day, as it is a new service, service might increase if it sells ok.

Now you know. :)

p.s: Renfe sells tickets Valencia-Malaga, but you have to change trains at Cordova station.

Can't see the demand rising too much, but good to see the new service using (for the most part) existing lines.

It is only one train per day that connects Valencia and Seville (shuttle to Malaga) directly in less than four hours.
It is possible to have a lot of trains with a stop at Madrid. In this way it would take longer and a little more expensive.

Let's hope the service run correctly and a second train will be required.

Since three years ago there are two Barcelona-Sevilla and two Barcelona-Malaga so Barcelona, Tarragona, Lerida and Zaragoza have four direct connections to Cordoba.

Trains run full international gauge and 300 km/h speed.

Avoiding Madrid stop they save time because entering the city (slow speed), inverse of driving and time of stop... and as well as there are enough passengers to have trains only to Madrid and trains to the other corner without entering Madrid they offer these services which pass very near Madrid station but do not stop there

Someone has had a cunning plan... in order to save money on new AVE lines, there is a proposal to modify the existing track with a third rail, so the fast trains can run on existing lines - at speeds up to 250 km/hour it's claimed.
(article in Spanish)
http://www.eleconomista.es/empresas-finanzas/noticias/4134607/07/12/Adif-ahorra-38000-millones-al-adaptar-3000-kilometros-de-via-iberica-al-AVE-.html
I think this is a great idea (so long as routes are kept safe). For instance the Madrid to Zamora stretch should be operational by early next year. If the AVE can then carry onto Galicia using this 3rd rail method, then the route will have major time savings.

Someone has had a cunning plan... in order to save money on new AVE lines, there is a proposal to modify the existing track with a third rail, so the fast trains can run on existing lines - at speeds up to 250 km/hour it's claimed.
(article in Spanish)
http://www.eleconomista.es/empresas-finanzas/noticias/4134607/07/12/Adif-ahorra-38000-millones-al-adaptar-3000-kilometros-de-via-iberica-al-AVE-.html
I think this is a great idea (so long as routes are kept safe). For instance the Madrid to Zamora stretch should be operational by early next year. If the AVE can then carry onto Galicia using this 3rd rail method, then the route will have major time savings.

The current lines can not support faster speeds than they already do, installing a third rail only mean that the AVE trains can run there but not faster.

The only way to run at 250km/h would be to construct new trackbed designed for that speed.

Apart of infrastructure we should think also in management.

Current Spanish gauge lines have a computering system that does not allow speeds over 200.

When Madrid-Lerida high speed line was open to traffic they had to install that system because new one wasn't finished and for two or three years we had trains that could run faster in a 350 km/h line but with a maximum speed of 200 km/h.

Changing gauge means about 10 minutes and 100 EUR to the public entreprise.

I've recently returned home from a few weeks in Spain during which I travelled Atocha-Sants on the AVE and all I can say is what a fantastic piece of infrastructure that is! 400 miles in just over 2hrs 30 is fantastic.

The network extends well south as far as Malaga and Sevilla (soon Cadiz), but does anyone have any realistic estimate of when it will be finished as far as Bilbao(N) and Santiago de Compestela(NW)?

Currently the network also extends to Valladolid (2007) and to Valencia (2010). Next year it will link Spain to France with the opening of the Barcelona - Figueres section. The opening of the line from Albacete to Alicante is also scheduled for next year.

One section of the line to Santiago opened last year, between Ourense and Santiago. The rest of the line between Olmedo (in the line to Valladolid) and Ourense is under construction and some sections will be put into service as soon as they are finished (maybe the section between Olmedo and Zamora will be opened next year too).

It is still too soon to foresee any opening dates of the line to Bilbao. Currently there are two sections under construction, Valladolid - Burgos and Vitoria - Bilbao (together with the spur to San Sebastián and France, the so called basque Y). However works have not started yet between Burgos and Vitoria.

Fortunately, the use of double gauge trains (trains that can be used both in standard and Spanish gauge lines), some of which are also hybrid (electric and diesel), improves the interoperability of the network and therefore it is easy to open isolated high speed sections, since they can be operated with these kind of trains.

Next year it will link Spain to France with the opening of the Barcelona - Figueres section.

Finally. The current service (with change of trains in Figueres) is a bit of a joke, with RENFE using a 5 car train set to connect with double deck TGV... The result is that tickets for Barcelona - France often sell out quickly, even when there is plenty of place on the TGV left. Only because the connecting train gets sold out so fast.

.. does anyone have any realistic estimate of when it will be finished as far as Bilbao(N) ..

the whole infrastructure from Madrid to the Basque-French border should be something between 2016 and 2024..

the whole infrastructure from Madrid to the Basque-French border should be something between 2016 and 2024..

It depend on when the construction between Burgos and Vitoria will start. Although the railway between these two cities will only be 90km long, it is not a totally straight forward project and could run into complicated terrain.

In order to negotiate the height difference from Burgos (900 m.s.l.) down to Miranda (450 m.s.l.) they have to build several tunnels and bridges.

The projected cost for the trackbed alone was 900 million euros back in 2006 for 90 km. The reason for the high cost is that they have to build atlest 17 km of tunnels and 11 km of bridges.

But compared to the Basque Y I guess it is dirt cheap...

This may be of interest to those, like me, who'd like to use the high speed rail network on a holiday. The article is in Spanish, so I'll leave a quick summary. The Renfe Spain Pass will alow an individual to buy a pass that permits between 4 and 12 journeys.
For example 160 Euros will allow 4 journeys on Turista class; 225 Euros for 4 journeys with Business class.
The highest batch is 12 journeys which will cost 385 Euros for Turista class, 540 Euros for business class.
The journeys have to be taken within a month's time-span, but you have up to 6 months from initially buying the pass to start making your journeys.
The passes can be bought at Renfe rail stations, authorized agents and on the internet.

http://ave-renfe.edreams.es/general/adquirir-el-renfe-spain-pass/

Edit - found explanation in English

http://www.renfe.com/EN/viajeros/viajes_internacionales/spainpass/index.html


I wonder if it will be valid next year for the journey up to Galicia (I understand the stretch from Madrid to Zamora should be up-and-running then)?

Hi. :)

New AVE direct service between Valencia and Seville, service started a week ago or so.

Calls at Cuenca, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordova.

Travel time 3h50min from Seville to Valencia.

Skips Madrid thanks to the new by-pass in Torrejon de Velasco (southern Madrid).

For now, there´s one per day, as it is a new service, service might increase if it sells ok.

Now you know. :)

p.s: Renfe sells tickets Valencia-Malaga, but you have to change trains at Cordova station.
Did we evaluate the positif impact of LAV in Valencia area economy ? and is there any studies of how it limited (probably) the impact of the crisis in this area ?

This may be of interest to those, like me, who'd like to use the high speed rail network on a holiday. The article is in Spanish, so I'll leave a quick summary. The Renfe Spain Pass will alow an individual to buy a pass that permits between 4 and 12 journeys.
For example 160 Euros will allow 4 journeys on Turista class; 225 Euros for 4 journeys with Business class.
The highest batch is 12 journeys which will cost 385 Euros for Turista class, 540 Euros for business class.
The journeys have to be taken within a month's time-span, but you have up to 6 months from initially buying the pass to start making your journeys.
The passes can be bought at Renfe rail stations, authorized agents and on the internet.

http://ave-renfe.edreams.es/general/adquirir-el-renfe-spain-pass/

Edit - found explanation in English

http://www.renfe.com/EN/viajeros/viajes_internacionales/spainpass/index.html


I wonder if it will be valid next year for the journey up to Galicia (I understand the stretch from Madrid to Zamora should be up-and-running then)?



I think you should have to wait until 2014 at least.

It can be used on AVE long and medium distance (Avant). That means, not available on Alvia or other trains.

In other words... trains Madrid to Valladolid, Barcelona, Huesca, Valencia, Albacete, Toledo, Malaga and Sevilla... and calls in the way. Further more also available for Barcelona-Sevilla, Barcelona-Malaga and Valencia-Sevilla.

Threeimportant details:

1- It talks about number of journeys, doesn't matter distance.
Should you go Sevilla-Barcelona is only one journey even if you have crossed all Spain. Should you take Sevilla-Madrid and Madrid-Barcelona, they are two journeys.
But... Malaga-Valencia would be one single journey. As well as you buy a combo ticket with shuttle at Cordoba, you will take two trains but it will be the same ticket.

2- For 4 journeys, fare is 40 EUR. Take a look for single fares because there are some journeys that would be cheaper buying a single ticket instead of using this pass. This is... you can arrive to Madrid by plane (or to any low cost airport... there are too many close to any high speed station), taking a return ticket to somewhere, etc... but some journeys would worth more buying separately.
This is the example such you want to go to Toledo (trains only from Madrid and terribly cheaper than 40 EUR).
Furthermore, should you know the exact date of traveling, you can search for cheaper tickets on web. A 60 EUR ticket can be a 24 EUR only with a 60% discount...

In other words... for short distance, doesn't worth. For longer distances, it worths too much but remember always to surf on the web if you know the exact dates. You can save more money.

More... you cannot do a Madrid-Granada, for instance, but you can do a Madrid-Antequera with this pass and paying an Antequera-Granada single ticket.

3- It includes commuter trains in all cities with this service: Sevilla, Malaga, Valencia, Barcelona, Zaragoza and Madrid. Take a look to the network of those commuters because as an example you can go from Valencia to Castellon. This is... Alvia Madrid-Castellon is not included but you can take an AVE Madrid-Valencia and later a free commuter train Valencia-Castellon.
And in any case you will be able to take a train from station to city centre. This service is available three hours before/after train departure/arrival. In your ticket it will appear a commuter password. You enter it in any machine and will deliver you a ticket for commuter trains.



Sorry but no AVE trains to Galicia in 2013. You could use it in trains Avant Orense-La Coruña but they are cheaper than 40 EUR.

and more info:

English version of Renfe pass in official web page

http://www.renfe.com/EN/viajeros/viajes_internacionales/spainpass/index.html

^^ Very good and informative posts. Thank you!

Did we evaluate the positif impact of LAV in Valencia area economy ? and is there any studies of how it limited (probably) the impact of the crisis in this area ?

It won´t do much, but it makes you travel faster, which in some cases might be rather helpful.
A train is just a tool, not a cure-all.

I have a question about the AVE 102:

I noted that the trainset uses Jacobson bogies; upon closer inspection, I realized that each bogie only has one axle instead of two. May I ask why? I thought single-axis wheel assemblies were unstable.

^^ I think it depends on whether the axle can move relative to the car body or not. Unless I'm talking out of my a%*e, single axle assemblies are usually used to avoid needing the rotating bogie, but with jacobs this would mean the train couldn't turn at all.

I have a question about the AVE 102:

I noted that the trainset uses Jacobson bogies; upon closer inspection, I realized that each bogie only has one axle instead of two. May I ask why? I thought single-axis wheel assemblies were unstable.

Actually, AVE 102 consists of Talgo cars, and they don't have any axles, that is wheels are independent. This allows for very light cars with low centre of gravity. It also has some high speed advantages:

http://www.talgo.com/index.php/en/rueda.php

The first AVE S-100 of Renfe has been moved to Perpignan from Barcelona, pulled by a Class 252 loco.

On Monday it is supposed to be pulled by a French loco much further north from Perpignan, to Belfort, as there, in the Alstom central factory, they´ll be installing the French signalling and security systems.

That AVE (100.024 is its number) is one of the lot destined to serve the international services between Spain and France. As things are going now, looks like it will be the Barcelona-Marseille, Barcelona-Lyon and Barcelona-Toulouse trains (maybe Madrid-Marseille too).

The rest of services between Spain and France, and between Spain and Switzerland, will be done by Sncf´s TGV Duplex (Paris-Barcelona, Paris-Madrid, Geneva-Madrid).

How many pairs of trains will be direct between Paris-Barcelona/Madrid and Geneva-Madrid?

^^ Is there even a case for a Madrid-Geneva train? How long will it take?

yes, please post some timetables/journey times if possible

especially the Madrid-Paris :)

Paris-Madrid seems to be too far for a regular traffic even with a very fast train. Barcelona-Marseille and Barcelona-Lyon is a proper "train territory". Maybe Paris-Barcelona, but at ca 5 h (1,100 km) it would also be pushing it to the limits...

^^ Is there even a case for a Madrid-Geneva train? How long will it take?

Nobody except for rail fans and people who fear flying would travel from Madrid to Geneva when there are very cheap flights between the two cities, both of them hosting two important international airport. But as you already know the train advantage over the plane is the intermediate stops.

Anyway I'm waiting for this line to open to be able to do Genève-Barcelona on a fast train like today's Genève-Paris... no more plane for me!

Paris-Madrid seems to be too far for a regular traffic even with a very fast train. Barcelona-Marseille and Barcelona-Lyon is a proper "train territory". Maybe Paris-Barcelona, but at ca 5 h (1,100 km) it would also be pushing it to the limits...

Barcelona-Paris in 5 h won't happen for a long time, when Barcelona - Figueras open it will take over 6 h to Paris.

Barcelona-Paris in 5 h won't happen for a long time, when Barcelona - Figueras open it will take over 6 h to Paris.

I know, 5 h is the best that route can hope for given the distance and current long term plans.

On the other hand Barcelona-Marseille is only 500 km and even with just a partial HSR it ought to be possible to cover it in 3 h (170 km/h average) or less. That's exactly the distance and time shared by most successful HSR lines.

I wonder if there is a market for London - Barcelona, even at ~7.5 hours? After all there are intercity services in the UK of this length.

The London - Barcelona air market was 1.7 million last year and pretty consistent across the year too.

Even assuming only 10% market share, that is roughly 500 people a day (in addition to possible cabotage). I expect most of this air market is concentrated around long weekends, so Friday and Sunday/Monday trains might be particularly viable.


A possible stopping pattern might be London - Paris CdG - Lyon - Montpellier - Barcelona, as those stops have reasonable air traffic too (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data/2011Annual/Table_12_1_Intl_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis_2011.pdf).

There is some limited market even for very long services. There are some advantages a train has besides travel time (no restrictions on baggage, for example), but it will be difficult to make money on them because business passengers are unlikely to use anything longer than ca 4h. Of course the point about intermediate stations is still valid.

Barcelona-Paris in 5 h won't happen for a long time, when Barcelona - Figueras open it will take over 6 h to Paris.

Even at 6 hours I think there will be a demand for Barcelona-Paris. I took the train many years ago from Barcelona to Madrid, a journey then of over 7 hours. Still plenty of passengers on the train, but many were getting on/off half way.
Incidentally Renfe now offer a service from Barcelona to Malaga - takes over 5 hours but high speed rail all the way.

Nobody except for rail fans and people who fear flying would travel from Madrid to Geneva when there are very cheap flights between the two cities, both of them hosting two important international airport. But as you already know the train advantage over the plane is the intermediate stops.

Anyway I'm waiting for this line to open to be able to do Genève-Barcelona on a fast train like today's Genève-Paris... no more plane for me!

There used to be a Geneve - Barcelona Talgo. It was replaced with a Geneve - Montpelier TGV that gave a cross platform connection to aTalgo in Montpelier.
And yes there is a market for such a service. Of course you won't get the business travel market with that, but as a train can serve multiple destinations that is not needed. A lot of people are not in a hurry anyway, and given how air travel is becoming progressively more disagreeable even day long long distance trains have a market.

A Geneve - Barcelona - Madrid train will see me on it.

What also might have some success are seasonal trains to points south of Barcelona. People take the TGV from Brussel to Nice, so why not Geneve - Alacant with stops al along the Costa...

What also might have some success are seasonal trains to points south of Barcelona. People take the TGV from Brussel to Nice, so why not Geneve - Alacant with stops al along the Costa...

Because it would take much longer...

How many pairs of trains will be direct between Paris-Barcelona/Madrid and Geneva-Madrid?

Not many in the beginning.
It will be a progressive thing, not a big bang scenario.

You have to bear in mind that the gauge problem has kept people from travelling by train to (and from) Spain for many, many years. So only Paris-Barcelona, Paris-Madrid, and Geneva-Barcelona are previously existing routes, all the others are new.

There has never ever existed any direct Barcelona-Toulouse nor Barcelona-Marseille train for instance, despite the reasonably short distance (the former) and not very long distance (the latter) between them. Ever. So we start from scratch in many of these routes.

Right now there are two TGV Paris-Figueras every day.
One TGV Geneva-Figueras might be added or not before the opening of the Barcelona-Figueras HSL.

Later, it might be two TGV Paris-Barcelona, plus one TGV Paris-Madrid, and one TGV Geneva-Madrid.

Later an AVE Barcelona-Toulouse/Marseille, plus an AVE Madrid-Marseille, plus another TGV Paris-Barcelona, and a train (still uncertain if it´ll be an AVE or a TGV) Barcelona-Lyon.

And then more trains will be added when and where needed.

Further targeted services are Nice, Bordeaux, and Lille.

You can obviously think about seasonal holidays, of course, at these times occupation might get to very high numbers (I mean per train, not yet number of trains).

This HSL service will nevertheless not be working at full pelt till some issues in the French HS network can be sorted out, such as the saturation on the Paris-Lyon line, and at Lyon-Part Dieu station in particular, or the lack of a HSL between Nimes and Perpignan, where trains will have to keep on using the old classic line.

^^ Is there even a case for a Madrid-Geneva train?

By putting together a Barcelona-Geneva train and a Montpellier-Madrid train, you can use better the intermediate stations.

How long will it take?

About 8 hours.
But very few people will use it for the whole route. Some will though.

Paris-Madrid seems to be too far for a regular traffic even with a very fast train.

Same as above: You put together a Paris-Barcelona train and a Montpellier-Madrid train and you have it.

There are trains that have a longer route than that in terms of travel time.
And more importantly, at each end of the line are two of Europe´s bigger cities (Paris and Madrid), and another big one (Barcelona) is right in the middle, so the intermediate stops are going to be used for something, don´t you think so? ;)

Barcelona-Marseille and Barcelona-Lyon is a proper "train territory".

Yes, and we expect much of these two routes, especially the first, and also Barcelona-Toulouse.

Maybe Paris-Barcelona, but at ca 5 h (1,100 km) it would also be pushing it to the limits...

No way. There´s plenty of TGVs with such long, or longer routes:

-Brussels-Perpignan
-Paris-Munich
-Barcelona-Seville
-Barcelona-Malaga
-Brussels-Nice
-Paris-Nice
-Paris-Pau-Lourdes-Tarbes

Paris-Nice is very well used, even if it isn´t competitive vs the plane.

A Geneve - Barcelona - Madrid train will see me on it.

Well, enjoy the trip.

What also might have some success are seasonal trains to points south of Barcelona. People take the TGV from Brussel to Nice, so why not Geneve - Alacant with stops al along the Costa...

Geneva-Alicante will not be feasible at all for a number of years due to gauge difference.
You´ll have to change trains at Barcelona-Sants if the timetable allows it.

I know, 5 h is the best that route can hope for given the distance and current long term plans.

The targeted definitive travel time is 4h30min, that is, once the whole HSL completed from Paris to Barcelona, thus including the now-missing stretch between Perpignan and Nimes.

On the other hand Barcelona-Marseille is only 500 km and even with just a partial HSR it ought to be possible to cover it in 3 h (170 km/h average) or less. That's exactly the distance and time shared by most successful HSR lines.

The initial travel time from Barcelona to Marseille will be 3h45min.
3 hours is feasible if the missing link is built.

I wonder if there is a market for London - Barcelona, even at ~7.5 hours? After all there are intercity services in the UK of this length.

The London - Barcelona air market was 1.7 million last year and pretty consistent across the year too.

Even assuming only 10% market share, that is roughly 500 people a day (in addition to possible cabotage). I expect most of this air market is concentrated around long weekends, so Friday and Sunday/Monday trains might be particularly viable.


A possible stopping pattern might be London - Paris CdG - Lyon - Montpellier - Barcelona, as those stops have reasonable air traffic too (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data/2011Annual/Table_12_1_Intl_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis_2011.pdf).

A London-Barcelona train per day would be feasible, but only if Eurostar (or a given company) had trains adapted for both the Spanish and British systems.

That said, it would be perfectly feasible as there is now a London-Avignon Eurostar on summer weekends.

London Avignon is still less than half London-Madrid.

Seriously, I doubt there is a case for such service. Barcelona and London are both major air hubs.

night trains should be tried, it would be ideal for tourists:
for a hotel room's price, you get accommodations for a night AND you can end one day in Paris and start the next in Madrid..

Because it would take much longer...

So what. Not everybody is in a hurry. And I know quite a few people who rather spend 8 hours in a train then 15 minutes being humiliated at an airport.

Well, enjoy the trip.

Geneva-Alicante will not be feasible at all for a number of years due to gauge difference.
You´ll have to change trains at Barcelona-Sants if the timetable allows it.

That is wat Renfe has gauge changing trains for.

London Avignon is still less than half London-Madrid.

Where did YOU read London-Madrid? Because clearly, I didn´t write anything about such a service.

Seriously, I doubt there is a case for such service. Barcelona and London are both major air hubs.

If there is room for a London-Avignon on summer weekends, there should be room for a daily London-Barcelona. I find it obvious given the size of both cities. It is more of a technical issue (equipment of trains) than anything else.

That is wat Renfe has gauge changing trains for.

Yes, but not Alstom´s!!
The Alvia 120 is CAF´s, and the Alvia 130, and the hybrid Alvia 730 are Talgo/Bombardier´s.

AVE 100 will be used for these services because they will be easily homologated in France, as they´re TGVs, and only need minor upgrade to travel in France. No other scenario has been thought about as it would be rather more expensive anyway, to both Spain and France.

And more importantly, there is no link between the HSL Barcelona-Madrid and the classic line in Barcelona. A branch line is being built in Tarragona that will link the Barcelona-Madrid HSL and the Barcelona-Valencia classic line, but they take these works veeeeeeery easy (they started 15 years ago!).

And there´s no gauge-change facility in Barcelona that could allow such thing to happen, nor is the construction of any of them planned.

And actually, a change at Barcelona-Sants is not a dangerous experience anyway.
Just change platforms and wait for a few minutes.

A London-Barcelona train per day would be feasible, but only if Eurostar (or a given company) had trains adapted for both the Spanish and British systems.

The British end (HS1) is built to French standards, so nothing new is needed here [Channel Tunnel fire regulations aside]. What extra do they need for the Spanish HSL?

The British end (HS1) is built to French standards, so nothing new is needed here [Channel Tunnel fire regulations aside]. What extra do they need for the Spanish HSL?

ERTMS, and if possible, decent doors, as platforms in Spain are 68cm high.

In Figueras, when you enter the TGV, you have to be careful, because it´s downstairs.

^^ How is that even allowed considering safety/evacuation regulations?

ERTMS, and if possible, decent doors, as platforms in Spain are 68cm high.


IIRC the Dutch HSL Zuid has ERTMS too, so I imagine the new Eurostars are compatible as they are being built to go to Amsterdam. As for the platforms, British ones are also higher. There are folding steps on their current trains.

Sounds like this could happen with the right political will. The 320 km/h top speed will help on the southern reaches of the French LGVs.

^^ How is that even allowed considering safety/evacuation regulations?

Why´s a raven like a writing desk? :sleepy:

I traveled by the train Paris-Figueres and untill Perpignan it was almost full.

so some ideas about timetabel for new Figueres - Barcelona highspeed line:

There is a lot of TGV trains to Perpignan even Perpignan - Brussels, why not to expand all of tham to Barcelona?

DB with cooperation with SNCF started service Frankfurt - Starsbourg - Lyon - Marsellie some months ago, why not to split it to two parts in Valence TGV and send one to Marsellie and another one to Barcelona?

Actual Paris - Figueres (Barcelona) trains are not synchronized with trains from Germany (Berlin-Paris nigh train and mentioned Frankfurt - Marsellie) let's hope thath this will change with high speen Figueres- Barcelona ones opened.

If anything, such international collaborations should be cracked upon because they preclude international independent private train operators for even having a chance to apply to slots couple years in advance (so that they can buy trains).

I traveled by the train Paris-Figueres and untill Perpignan it was almost full.

so some ideas about timetabel for new Figueres - Barcelona highspeed line:

There is a lot of TGV trains to Perpignan even Perpignan - Brussels, why not to expand all of tham to Barcelona?

DB with cooperation with SNCF started service Frankfurt - Starsbourg - Lyon - Marsellie some months ago, why not to split it to two parts in Valence TGV and send one to Marsellie and another one to Barcelona?

Actual Paris - Figueres (Barcelona) trains are not synchronized with trains from Germany (Berlin-Paris nigh train and mentioned Frankfurt - Marsellie) let's hope thath this will change with high speen Figueres- Barcelona ones opened.


Old railways in Spain and Portugal have a different gauge wide than the rest of Europe.

High speed lines have the international gauge wide but... only in those new lines built after 1992. There are too many (the country with more high speed lines in Europe) but still do not link with European network.

That means... for running from anywhere with international gauge to a Spanish gauge you may be on a train able to change automatically... or just make a connection between two trains.

This is why trains from anywhere in France cannot go after Figueres, where the international gauge railway ends (strech until Barcelona is under construction and in an advanced status).

There, currently it is possible to shuttle to a train in Spanish gauge until Barcelona.

When the new line Barcelona-Figueres will be open, it will be possible to go from anywhere in Europe to southern Spain.

Furthermore, Sevilla, Malaga, Valencia, Barcelona, Madrid, Toledo, Albacete and Valladolid are all of them linked by high speed lines with standards of 300 km/h.


On summer there is one non-stop Barcelona-Sevilla that runs in 4 hours 50 minutes (about 1200 km, which makes 244km/h of commercial speed!!!)

I traveled by the train Paris-Figueres and untill Perpignan it was almost full.

so some ideas about timetabel for new Figueres - Barcelona highspeed line:

There is a lot of TGV trains to Perpignan even Perpignan - Brussels, why not to expand all of tham to Barcelona?

DB with cooperation with SNCF started service Frankfurt - Starsbourg - Lyon - Marsellie some months ago, why not to split it to two parts in Valence TGV and send one to Marsellie and another one to Barcelona?

NO. There´s no need, nor passengers, nor rail frequencies available, nor competitivity in that route.

That train should cross France, so I guess the French should have their say about it.

Besides, the EU will be dead by that time. Spain has an interest in keeping good relationship with France.

Actual Paris - Figueres (Barcelona) trains are not synchronized with trains from Germany (Berlin-Paris nigh train and mentioned Frankfurt - Marsellie) let's hope thath this will change with high speen Figueres- Barcelona ones opened.

Why should they be synchronized with any train from Germany? So as the Germans can come to the beach? They have the airplane... or the Baltic.

The German passengers will become a negligible part of the passengers on the France-Spain HSL. This is a France-Spain line, so I don´t see why Germany should be in the middle like every Thursday on every week.

Why should they be synchronized with any train from Germany? So as the Germans can come to the beach? They have the airplane... or the Baltic.

The German passengers will become a negligible part of the passengers on the France-Spain HSL. This is a France-Spain line, so I don´t see why Germany should be in the middle like every Thursday on every week.

that´s one of these answers you really can keep for yourself.. :ohno:

today only Figueres has a real connection timetables between Spain and France. In the other stations, incluiding Canfranc with only two local trains in Spain and bus service served by SNCF in France, timetables are not matched.

So we can be very happy because international connection!!


Anyway... in different forums it is said that a train Madrid-Paris will have few passengers point to point but a lot of passengers in other stations. This is... there is a good service Madrid-Paris by plane, as well as from Lyon, Barcelona, etc... but a poor service from other stations with an importan numer of inhabitants.

These stations will be the ones that will fill the train.

More international connections?. It will depend mainly of German and French railways... Today there is a train until Geneve. Is there any connection to the other corner of Switzerland?. Not assured. You arrive and ask for it.


From my point of view... as many connections will be welcome... but... who has to assure them?

Today there is a train until Geneve. Is there any connection to the other corner of Switzerland?. Not assured. You arrive and ask for it.

Today's international elipsos train reaches Lausanne, Fribourg, Bern and Zurich after Geneva.

I bet once the TGV's are introduced some sort of connection will be made available considering CFF's policy on the issue, probably by having it arriving at the perfect time for existing trains, it will heavily depend on schedules though of course, such long-distance trains are more prone at deviating from the set timetables. In any case Geneva's train station is well connected to the rest of the country with trains towards Zurich departing every 30min, half of them through Neuchâtel - Olten and the other half through Lausanne - Bern, and trains to Bern even more frequent, with no need to mention Lausanne given that they have almost become a suburban network.

What I wanted to say is that being on service Barcelona-Figueres, let's suppose that almost all of trains from France will be anywhere-Barcelona (they can come from Paris, Toulouse, Nice, Switzerland, Brussels and Germany for instance...) and a few of them will continue anywhere (mainly Madrid but they could arrive to Sevilla and Malaga running 300 km/h nonstop).

In any case, a train arriving to Barcelona will not require a connection. There are more than one train every hour to Madrid, similar to Valencia and they just have to take a look if you want to go to Northern Spain or Andalucia (and you can go there with a connection in Madrid if you have no other alternative).

Should we have so many trains in the other corner... no need to have a full timetable for connecting trains. Good frequencies means nice for connections.

When does the bit from Barcelona, and also the bit into Extremadura/Portuguese border, open?

When does the bit from Barcelona, and also the bit into Extremadura/Portuguese border, open?

The Barcelona-Figueras connection should open by Spring 2013.

As for the Madrid to the Portuguese border (namely Badajoz), there is no date yet.

Figueres-Barcelona next year. From Barcelona there is high speed railway that can go until Madrid, Toledo (no direct service, there is only a shuttle from Madrid), Sevilla, Malaga and Valencia (but via Madrid so it doesn't worth).
There is no link still to Valladolid because line Madrid-Valladolid arrives to a different station in Madrid and connection is u/c
Anyway, in many stations there is an infrastructure to change the gauge and running 300 km/h while high speed line and 120-160 in normal lines.


No date for connection to Lisboa and Portuguese government decided to stop the project.
The international station would have a passengers terminal in the Spanish side (Badajoz is the main city in the area and city centre is only 4 km from border) and a freight terminal in the Portuguese side (about 15 km from border).

Anyway, with some works it could run a train until Madrid and later continuing on the old railway till Lisboa.

If anything, such international collaborations should be cracked upon because they preclude international independent private train operators for even having a chance to apply to slots couple years in advance (so that they can buy trains).

And how do they do that, may I ask?

Today there is a train until Geneve. Is there any connection to the other corner of Switzerland?. Not assured.

Oh, but the connecting to any other town, village, hamlet or mountain hut in Switzerland is no problem at all, as long as you don't arrive in Switzerland to late...

Will the fast train link to Cadiz open this year?

No, and no plans to arrive.

But, good news since last spring. Today you have four direct trains Madrid-Cadiz which run 250 until Sevilla and continue in the normal line later, as well as in other four trains it is sold as "connection", and AVE Madrid-Sevilla and just several minutes later a Sevilla-Cadiz, having assured that you will take the second train waiting for you or an alternative given by Renfe.

You can mix a return ticket with a direct train and a connection trains or viceversa, for return discount.

Connection trains take the same time that direct train. You loose some minutes at Sevilla but Madrid-Sevilla run 300 so it is faster.


So... eight trains, between connection and direct ones Madrid-Cadiz.

I took the train from Madrid to Malaga at the end of 2010 and the ride was great. Never got pictures because my camera got stolen in Barcelona the same evening (spent 6 hours in Malaga then flew to Barcelona). Getting tickets was easy and the train was on time. Great way to see the Spanish countryside.

Barcelona-Malaga is 5h30m with nonstop at Madrid. There are two daily trains and while august there was one train on peak dates Barcelona-Sevilla (absolutely nonstop Barcelona-Cordoba) where possible to shuttle to Malaga.

The difference in Spain is the line and gauges. New lines (high speed ones) have international gauges and can run up to 300 km/h.
Old lines (a special gauge used in Spain and Portugal) can run up to 200 km/h but average speed will be about 100 more or less, depending areas.

In stations you will not find difference but there are plattforms for one and other gauge.
For instance, in Barcelona-Malaga you crossed my city, Zaragoza. In the station, plattforms 1 to 4 are UIC gauges and 5 to 8 are Spanish gauges. Only special trains can change one to other gauge with a gauge-interchanger there is besides the station.

In the case of Barcelona-Malaga you could run up to 300 in all journey.

In the case of Madrid-Cadiz it is not possible (it is possible in Madrid-Sevilla). There are trains prepared to change gauge and you have not to get off them to go on a different line, but they are limited to 200 or 250.

That is why high speed can be faster and better than plane in several journeys, but if you use part of old lines, you will save time but not as many as if journey is full high speed.

Last spring in the Motorways subforum a new thread was created for roads at Ukraine and Poland because the Football Eurocup.

Next winter it will be played the 2013 Handball World cup in Spain

There will be six host cities and movement between them will be easy by train.

If moderators consider the option, a thread about this sport event can be created, and include there not only how to move city to city but also underground, commuter, tramway inside every city for inner mobility.

The thread could be used one and a half year later for the 2014 Basketball world cup (only partially... for basketball one of host cities will be Las Palmas de Gran Canaria...)

I write here. Should it be interesting, it can be moved to a different thread

2013 Handball World Championship - Spain

The championship will have four groups with six countries everyone. 16 teams will pass to the second phase and will be eliminatory to arrive semifinal and final.

8 teams not classified (possitions 17 to 24) will play a second competition ("President cup" such it is called in handball)

Venues cities for first phase will be Sevilla, Madrid, Zaragoza and Granollers-Barcelona. In this last case, four out of five matches will be played at Granollers and last one at Barcelona.

Teams classified will play two matches more (1/8 and 1/4) at Barcelona or Zaragoza.
Semifinal and Final at Barcelona


Teams by city:

- Sevilla: Chile, Denmark, Iceland, Macedonia, Qatar and Russia
- Granollers: Germany, Argentina, Brazil, France, Montenegro and Tunisia
- Zaragoza: Saudi Arabia, Belarus, South Korea, Slovenia, Poland and Serbia
- Madrid: Algeria, Australia, Croatia, Egypt, Spain and Hungary

All five group matches will be played in the same city so no need to transport between cities there.

After first phase, teams can go to Barcelona or Zaragoza depending if they are clasified 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th in their group (for any group it is possible to see the exact city every country will go depending on the group they are).



If a supporter is at Sevilla, he will need to move to Barcelona or Zaragoza. There are two daily high speed trains. Destination Barcelona and Zaragoza is one of those stops.

For instance, Sevilla-Zaragoza is 860 km by road and only 3h30min by train!!!!

General fare is 115 EUR but buying in advance you can save money.

Sevilla-Barcelona is 5h20min and they are the same trains (currently they depart at 9:00 and 16:00 from Sevilla)

It is possible to make a Sevilla-Madrid and Madrid-Zaragoza/Barcelona but will take a bit longer and expensive.


If a supporter is at Madrid and needs to go to Zaragoza or Barcelona there are, at least, one train per hour.

Madrid-Zaragoza, since 1h15min and 61 EUR in general fare

Madrid-Barcelona, since 2h30min and since 119 EUR in general fare


From Granollers to Barcelona (needed for last match in first phase) you need to take a commuter train. It takes about 30 minutes until Barcelona centre and runs about every 10 minutes in normal hours (in peak hours can be 6 minutes)